▶ 0:06:48Good afternoon. The committee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recess at any time. Today, the rules committee is convening to consider four separate measures. HR 2483, HR 2931, HR 2966, and HR2987.
▶ 0:07:11HR 2483, the support for patients and communities reauthorization act of 2025 reauthorizes programs that provide for opioid use disorder prevention, treatment, and recovery.
▶ 0:07:28This legislation presents us with an opportunity to build upon the program made in 2018 by President Trump, Republicans, and Democrats when the original support act was signed into law. Republicans led the creation of a bipartisan coalition in 2018 in support of that legislation. We have no intention of walking away from our record of progress.
▶ 0:07:55We can and should pass this legislation so that every American can receive the treatment necessary to help fight his or her battle with addiction.
▶ 0:08:09HR 2931, the Save SBA from Sanctuary Cities Act of 2025, would require the US Small Business Administration to relocate offices located in jurisdictions that have adopted sanctuary policies codifying an announcement by administrator Leler in furtherance of two of President Trump's executive Sanctuary jurisdictions across the nation aid
▶ 0:08:40in the obstruction of federal immigration law enforcement and the policies of these jurisdictions pose a direct threat to American citizens and communities. I need not remind our colleagues across the aisle of the wave of violent crime caused by illegal aliens just one year ago that resulted in countless deaths of Americans that could have been prevented.
▶ 0:09:07Under this legislation, if an SBA office is currently within a city that is the sanctuary jurisdiction, it will be relocated to another area within that same state.
▶ 0:09:21HR 2966, the American Entrepreneurs First Act of 2025, protects hardworking taxpayers by ensuring that lawful, eligible applicants are the only ones who can access programs that are administered by the Small Business Administration. Let me make two things crystal clear.
▶ 0:09:45Noncitizens shouldn't be afforded loans and financing backed by American taxpayers. Illegal aliens do not deserve the public benefit at the expense of residents. HR 2966 requires the submission of the date of birth for each individual applicant or business owner. Certification that each applicant is a US citizen.
▶ 0:10:14US national or lawful permanent resident or in the case of businesses that 100% of owners meet these criteria. Disclosure of alien registration numbers for lawful permanent residents and certification that no direct or indirect business owner is an quote ill ill whoops ineligible person end quote
▶ 0:10:45including asileles, refugees, visa holders, DACA recipients or undocumented 2966 is a common sense piece of legislation that should not even merit controversy or opposition.
▶ 0:11:04HR 2987, the capping excess excessive awarding of SBLC Entrance Act of 2025 amends the Small Business Act to require a limit on the number of small business lending companies. This legislation constitutes a rightful overdue fix to a wrongheaded change by the Biden Harris administration that was born out of its own woke agenda.
▶ 0:11:35Unlike certified depository institutions whose primary regulator is the Federal Reserve, SBLC's are primarily regulated by the SBA and are not subject to the same safety and soundness regulations. The SBA's regulatory resources are limited and its ability to regulate the existing SBLC's was already in question before this change.
▶ 0:12:03But the Biden Harris administration decided that there should be no upper limit with respect to the amount of SBLC's in operation. This move was met with bipartisan concerns for its obvious impact on loan program integrity.
▶ 0:12:21This legislation limits the administrator of the Small Business Administration to authorizing not more than 16 small business lending companies that are not nonprofit entities to make loans under section seven of the Small Business Act at any time. Democrats need to abandon this reckless policymaking and restore the SBA loan program to the framework that was already working.
▶ 0:12:52Anything less will cost our constituents who truly benefit from this program by limiting their future access to loans as the integrity of oversight suffers. As always, I'll happily invite our Democrat colleagues to join us in voting in favor of this slate of four bills. With that, I look forward to today's discussion. I now yield to ranking member Mr. McGovern for any comments he wishes to make. Well, thank you, Madam Chair.
▶ 0:13:22And um I want to begin by condemning in the strongest possible terms the appalling act of anti-semitic violence that happened in Boulder, Colorado over the weekend, which happens to be in our colleague, Mr. Nagus's district. Let's be clear, anti-semitism is vile. It is wrong and it has absolutely no place in America. And targeting peaceful protesters for exercising their First Amendment rights flies in the face of everything this country is supposed to stand for.
▶ 0:13:50My heart is with the victims, their families, and everyone impacted by these cowardly acts of hate. And now, uh, turning to the matter at hand, um, these bills before us are just another attempt to vilify all immigrants and distract from the Trump administration's disastrous failure to lower costs or do anything meaningful to help the people of this country. By vilifying all immigrants, um, by vil vilifying all immigrants doesn't make us safer, Madam Chair.
▶ 0:14:20In fact, it makes us less safe. It tears families apart and it hurts people including people like Carol Huayi in Missouri who worked two jobs to support her son who's beloved in her community and who has been detained by ICE. There is a powerful story about her which I would encourage every one of you to read which I would like to insert into the record entitled a m a Missouri town was solely behind Trump then Carol was detained without objection.
▶ 0:14:48Even US citizens, even US citizens are being swept up in overzealous crackdowns. That's not border security. It's cruelty for political gain. And to be clear, Democrats are not denying that there's a problem. We want smart, humane, effective solutions that keep us safe without sacrificing our values. What Republicans are off offering is the opposite.
▶ 0:15:13a system that lets real threats slip through slip through while largely punishing innocent people. And that brings me to the bills that are before us today. One bill reauthorizes funding for programs that help communities fight the opiate crisis, something that I have supported. But it's hard to take Republicans seriously when Trump and his cronies are actively dismantling those very programs. If they were serious about this crisis, they'd stop undermining the solutions.
▶ 0:15:42Then we have the other three bills which claim to support small businesses but do the exact opposite. Doge already shuttered an SBA office um in in my district in Massachusetts, forcing rural small business owners to drive hours to get to the nearest SBA office in Boston. Now, under this bill, if Republicans force the closure of the Boston office out of political spite, it will leave small businesses in Massachusetts with nowhere else to turn.
▶ 0:16:13It will have disastrous long-term consequences for the rural entrepreneurs and working-class families in my home state who rely on the SBA to navigate federal assistance and recover from economic setbacks like the increased costs that they're facing because of Trump's reckless trade war. Because in case you didn't know, Trump's tariff chaos does in fact punish small businesses. Unlike the mega donors who bankroll Republican campaigns, small business owners can't hedge against that kind of volatility.
▶ 0:16:43Every time Trump throws another tantrum on trade, Republicans are tossing small businesses into a tail spin with no warning, no help, and frankly no concern. But maybe that's the point. Republicans aren't governing to help regular people. They're governing to protect the powerful and punish the vulnerable. Look no further than the GOP tax scam House Republican Jim threw the House last month on the recent payforplay pardons handed out to Trump loyalists. People who paid up or praised him.
▶ 0:17:14Uh the Republicans message is clear. If you're rich and you support Trump, Republicans will take care of you. If you're not, you're on your own. They're not in this for working families or small businesses. They're in it for themselves and for ultra wealthy, for the and for the ultra wealthy who keep their campaigns afloat. Madam Chair, I think it's disgraceful and I think the American people deserve better. Uh and um with that, I I welcome our witnesses and look forward to their testimony. I yield back. Thank you. I thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:17:43McGovern, for mentioning the horrific attack in um Colorado. I had issued several statements on it which is why I did not begin with it but I thank you uh for bringing it up today and I'm will say something to Mr. Negus when he's here. Um I do have a quick word of personal privilege. I recognize the father of Patrick on our majority staff Mr.
▶ 0:18:11Peter Engelhart who's here with us um from Dripping Springs, Texas. Uh we want you to know, Mr. Englehart, that Patrick's doing a fantastic job of staffing the committee and uh we he you should be very very proud of him. So, I'd like the record to reflect that. Thank Thank you for being here. Madam Chairman, I would just like to welcome him from my home district and my hometown. So, thank you.
▶ 0:18:42Without objection, any prepared statements our witnesses may have will be included in the record. I now welcome our first panel. Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Palone from the Committee on Energy and Commerce. Your full statement will be submitted for the record and we ask you summarize your statement in five minutes. Chairman Guthrie, I welcome your testimony. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ranking Member McGovern, and and identify with both of your comments on what happened in Colorado.
▶ 0:19:11That is just absolutely tragic and unbelievable that that goes on this day. And uh just sad. Sorry. Sorry to that we we're dealing with that. It's just awful for so many of our fellow Americans who don't deserve it. um for so on on dealing with uh dealing with are we here to help the most vulnerable in our society. I think this bill before us does and you mentioned that it was a bipartisan bill worked by partisan.
▶ 0:19:38Matter of fact, the the text before us today was actually included in the end of last year's bill. It was agreed upon and the text of this bill was agreed upon in the four corners as it came to the end of the year bill which obviously didn't pass. But that's why we're here today. Because for far too long, Americans have witnessed the unprecedented rise in drug overdoses and substance use disorders, creating an an imminent need for prevention, treatment, and recovery services.
▶ 0:20:04The opioid epidemic and its associated overdose deaths have ravaged communities across the country. According to the most recent data, the CDC, approximately 87,000 Americans have died due to overdoses from uh September 23rd to October 20 September 2023 to October 2024. My home state of Kentucky saw close to 2,000 overdose deaths in 2023.
▶ 0:20:29While these numbers represent a slight and a welcome decline in overdose deaths, we must remember that we still have these deaths and each number represents somebody's family member, a friend or a neighbor and all of us have been touched in some way and I'm hopeful these numbers continue to decline and our communities receive a much needed respit from an ep epidemic that has gone on for decades. This decline in overdose rates is a result of the significant investments we made in treatment and recovery.
▶ 0:20:58The work we have done in a previous Congress, as I reiterate, is bipartisan that we are reauthorizing today is vital to ensure these overdose rates continue to decline. I'm grateful to be here today to discuss HR 2483, the support for patients communities reauthorization act of 2025 and how this legislation builds off the important work established by the original support act which is signed into law by President Trump in 2018.
▶ 0:21:25We're reauthorizing key public health programs focused on prevention, treatment, and recovery for patients with substance use disorder. The support act continues to supply resources for individuals and families impacted by fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, promotes state choice and prescription drug monitoring programs, and allows for educational opportunities regarding the unique dangers of fentanyl contaminated drugs.
▶ 0:21:50I am very proud of the bipartisan work members of the committee on energy and commerce have put into helping craft this support act. This is a common sense bill that received a strong and bipartisan voting committee. Between both the 118th and 119th Congresses, Energy and Commerce Committee members have heard testimony from nearly 30 experts on how lawmakers can improve policies related to prevention, treatment, and recovery for substance use disorder, as well as ways Congress can be more proactive in combating existing
▶ 0:22:21emergency drug threats. I'm reminded of the powerful testimony presented by Ray Cullen, who lost his son, Zach. He was just nine days past his 23rd birthday when he was targeted by a drug dealer and ultimately poisoned by the drugs. Ray powerfully recited for us the prayer he read at his son's funeral. He and his family along with many others have experienced immeasurable pain from losing a child or a loved one. Their message is always the same.
▶ 0:22:50We need to get these lethal lethal poisons off our streets and increase access to both treatment and recovery services for those who need it. I am hopeful that my colleagues will continue this bipartisan work with us in order to further provide these necessary resources so our communities are equipped with the tools to improve prevention, treatment, and recovery services for patients with substance use disorder. This legislation is vitally important. The Senate is ready to act. It is time to get the support act for patients and communities reauthorization act signed into law.
▶ 0:23:21I thank you for your time and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Guthrie. Ranking member Palone, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair and Ranking Member McGover, members of the rules committee. The support act passed last Congress with strong bipartisan support. It even passed on suspension, but it's coming us it's coming up this week under a rule because a lot has changed since last year.
▶ 0:23:44We have a new administration and the Trump administration is attacking mental health and substance use response efforts on every front. Republicans want to move forward with this legislation. At the same time, they are silently standing by as the Trump administration dismantles SAMA, the very agency that is responsible for carrying out the programs that the Support Act reauthorizes. In the past few months, the Trump administration has completely eroded the mental health and substance use treatment landscape as we know it.
▶ 0:24:13It has fired hundreds of workers at SAMA, including key senior officials such as the directors of the centers focused on mental health and substance abuse treatment. It has eliminated entire offices authorized in statute that are responsible for collecting data on mental health and substance use and helping people locate treatment services. Eliminating these offices will only make it harder for people seeking treatment to find care. The Trump administration is also eliminating SAMA altogether without congressional authorization.
▶ 0:24:44It will be combined with other agencies that the Trump administration doesn't care about under the banner of a larger make American health again office. And these critical programs to treat mental health and substance abuse will be deprioritized or eliminated in favor of Robert Kennedy Jr.'s PEP projects like destroying Americans access to vaccines.
▶ 0:25:06The Trump administration is also threatening our efforts to address mental health and substance use disorders by rescending over $1 billion in essential funding that states rely on through block grants. The administration has also proposed eliminating 40 different mental health and substance use programs, including eight programs reauthorized by the support act.
▶ 0:25:27And this includes programs to train first responders who respond to opioid overdose calls, provide residential treatment to pregnant and postpartum women, and support people in long-term recovery. In fact, the Trump administration's budget goes further and proposes eliminating nearly all of the support act programs as they propose to eliminate all so-called programs of regional and national significance or PRNS. This is the umbrella under which nearly all of the support programs reside.
▶ 0:25:57And so, let me be clear. This is not a budget proposal in the traditional sense. This is a roadmap for what the Trump administration plans to do unless the federal courts prevent them from proceeding. Their expensive and limitless, I should say, their expansive and limitless view of the president's authority knows no bounds. Uh if Doge wants to cut entire agencies, eliminate programs, and impound funds, they will do it regardless of the law.
▶ 0:26:22And regardless of what you do here, unfortunately, Republican majorities in both the House and Senate silently sit by and watch all the destruction and illegal actions. House Republicans have not conducted any oversight of this administration. Instead, they dodge and evade their basic constitutional duties to conduct oversight of the executive branch, ignoring the needs of their constituents out of fear, I think, of the wrath of Trump and his and and Doge.
▶ 0:26:47And to make matters worse, just two weeks ago, House Republicans passed the biggest cut in Medicaid in history as part of their effort to fund giant tax breaks for billionaires. Medicaid covers 40% of all Americans with opio use disorder. Gutting the program will leave millions of Americans without access to life-saving care. And all of these actions completely undermine existing efforts to address substance use disorder in communities across the country. Americans will suffer. And yet this does not seem to matter to the Trump administration.
▶ 0:27:17So let me be clear. These decisions will have disastrous and deadly consequences on the millions of Americans impacted impacted by substance use disorder. So I I think the problem here, Madam Chair, is that Republicans are saying that we're going to conduct business as usual in Washington where we're going to reauthorize the support act. But and if that were the case that you know we were just reauthorizing the program, providing the funding, not dismantling SAMA, I would join them in supporting this bill today just as I did last Congress.
▶ 0:27:48But the Trump administration is not conducting business as usual. And I don't think Republicans doing anything to fight back and therefore I can't support the bill while our mental health and substance use treatment infrastructure is basically being attacked and dismantled. So with that, I yield back the balance of my time. Madam Speaker, Madame Chair, I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr. Palone. Chairman Guthrie, would you like to respond to anything the ranking member just said? Well, well, thanks.
▶ 0:28:17I ju I just want to say there there has been a reorganization of SAMA and and you know, we these are the programs that we support and and I strongly support these programs and fight for these programs. If the administration can do them more efficiently and they can do them better, as long as these programs get accomplished, that's what I want to work on.
▶ 0:28:36But if you look at the reduction of force at SAMA, my understanding is is that the programs authorized in this piece of legislation haven't been affected by that reorganization that they so that obviously states that the Trump administration has these as a priority as well.
▶ 0:28:52And so I want to get this support and fight for these programs and make sure they're Chairman Guthrie, it seems that a lot of the amendments that were submitted in committee and here at rules conditions the implementation of the act. In effect, this would inevitably delay the authorization which belies the other views express that this federal support is so critical.
▶ 0:29:19If I could just summarize the selfdefeating logic of some of these amendments, they believe the Trump administration won't follow the law, but then they want the Trump administration to certify they will obey the law, and they want President Trump to sign the law that they believe he won't obey.
▶ 0:29:43So, if Democrats have problems with how the executive branch is dealing with appropriations, would it make sense to use the appropriations process to address their concerns and not jeopardize this bipartisan effort? Well, thank you. That that's a great question and we've seen the results.
▶ 0:30:01We do have lower number instances of overdose deaths uh because you know the one of the big parts of the bill is that we took nlloxxone off of prescription that you have to have prescription for Noxone. So the old in the before this technically you know if somebody had an overdose you had to find some foundum call a doctor get a prescription send it to the uh pharmacy go pick up the prescription and administer it.
▶ 0:30:27By then obviously it was way too late and and so what was able to happen is that now it's with the emergency responders and and my understanding is it's even with people who are has substance use disorder they keep the lock zone with them. So, so the point is any delay is is can can be deadly and so we just want to make sure that that we don't and it obviously the appropriations process is is the right place to to if you want to fight the battle on appropriations that's the right spot for this.
▶ 0:30:57Thank you very much Mr. McGovern. You're recognized. Well, thank you. Um and this is this is very serious stuff I think for all of us. Um, I mean, I drug addiction and overdoses continue to devastate families in my district uh in communities all across the country. Over 20,000 lives have been lost in my home state of Massachusetts alone to this crisis over the past decade. Uh, but in Massachusetts, we saw a 33% drop in fatal overdoses for the first time last year.
▶ 0:31:25I think what it shows is that public investment in treatment and prevention are starting to make a real difference. And and that's why I in the past have supported many of the programs uh that would be renewed in in this bill, including programs to train first responders and how to treat overdose uh provide special treatment for pregnant and postpartum women and help individuals in recovery uh re-enter in recovery reenter the workforce.
▶ 0:31:51But I'm also concerned and I should say I'm I'm outraged quite frankly that that the Trump administration is actively dismantling our ability to respond to the opiate crisis. moving forward. Now, the administration recently sent over more details about Trump's so-called skinny budget, which propos proposes very large cuts to health programs that American families rely on.
▶ 0:32:13These include eliminating programs of regional and national significance at the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration or SAMA, which encompass nearly all of the programs aimed at substance use and mental health, including the ones in the bill before us Uh, and so Chairman Guthrie, I mean, do do you agree with President Trump that Congress should eliminate funding for these programs?
▶ 0:32:38And are you aware that many of the programs reauthorized under the Support Act are the ones that the Trump budget request wants to eliminate, such as support for first responders and pregnant and postpartum care for women? Well, I I understand that that the budget, the executive proposed budget is always a starting point and I support these programs and so I'm going to fight for these programs and as we as put this forward through the appropriations process because I think these are important to have.
▶ 0:33:08But but my understanding when they did the riff in the reduction force in in SAMA, they these programs weren't effective. So I think these are priority for these to have in their programs. my understanding they're taking that's my understanding of of of of what he's sent up to the hill and I mean doesn't it concern you that these programs are on the chopping block and and what's the point of reauthorizing programs if the administration is going to arbitrarily cut them?
▶ 0:33:32Well I think that we it's our job to reauthorize the programs and have them in law and my my understanding what they want to do is not eliminate the programs just move them into a streamlined process. Well, and and and we don't have streamline process look like. And by the way, I I thought the way it's supposed to work is if Congress passes laws and appropriates money, the administration needs to follow those laws and to spend that money and not make these arbitrary, you know, cuts.
▶ 0:33:59I mean, you you introduced a bill, I think, on March 9th, 2023, called the Comprehensive Opiate Recovery Centers Reauthorization Act for 2023. Am I correct? Right. Right. I mean, are you aware that the president's budget request proposes to eliminate funding for that program? Well, my understanding is they're moving into another account where they they streamline all these programs into into one specific account. the aha account.
▶ 0:34:25Do you have a Yeah, let me just I don't want to speak too long, but I just want to explain, you know, for all of you understand, I'm not one of these people who thinks that we shouldn't work with the Republicans and work with the chairman if we can accomplish a goal. I don't come here and say we should support the support act. we should oppose the support act if I thought there was something happening here that was actually positive. But I don't think that's true here. Right?
▶ 0:34:55In other words, look at this. The support act reauthorizes the SAMA programs. You have an administration that's saying we're going to get rid of SAMA alto together. We're going to put it in this new administration for a healthy America. I don't believe looking at that that it actually is going to keep SAMA effective. Right? Then you have a billion dollars in recisions that have already been out there. Money that's already been obligated for all these treatment programs and education programs in the country. Right? Then there's that.
▶ 0:35:24Then you have a budget now that eliminates almost every one of the programs under the support act that this is what the administration's proposing. And I could go on and on. The point is why are we why are we reauthorizing this bill when everything that we're reauthorizing is going to be gone? And the simple answer is in my opinion because they want to show that they still support these things. And maybe maybe the chairman does. But it doesn't matter because they're they're going to all be gone.
▶ 0:35:52So I think we have to say let's not act as if we're we're supporting this at the same time that all these things are being eliminated that are meaningful in a real sense. Yeah. I look at I'm all for working in a bipartisan way and we have in the past and we've actually you know reauthor we authorized many of these programs and I'm I'm here to tell you that you know that has helped in my home state of Massachusetts as I began I said that we saw a 33% drop in fatal overdoses for the first time last year and
▶ 0:36:22that wasn't by accident it was because of some of the federal support that actually made a real difference and saved lives. Uh, so you know, but you know, this isn't just about what the Trump administration is proposing to to do. It's about what they're already doing, right? That's correct. Taking a sledgehammer to SAMA, the federal agency tasked with administering our federal response to the opio crisis by firing hundreds of federal employees and closing offices around the country. So, Chairman Guthrie, you know, there have already been massive cuts at SAMA.
▶ 0:36:53I understand that ranking member Palone and his staff on the Energy and Commerce Committee have yet to receive a response to their repeated inquiries as to how many staff have actually been fired and which offices have been closed. Have you or your staff received that information? I don't have knowledge that I have that information.
▶ 0:37:11I'm not saying that we It would it would seem to me like this is information that we should have uh but especially um as we consider the support act reauthorization which will require adequate staff to implement all this stuff.
▶ 0:37:25So, you know, as we highlight highlighted at the last rules meeting, um you know, President Trump and congressional Republicans are also attempting to rip health coverage away from nearly 14 million Americans through cuts to Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act by refusing to work with Democrats to keep the enhanced premium tax credits in place. Uh are you aware that more than 1 million people receive medication treatment for opiate use disorder, the gold standard for opiate addiction treatment through Medicaid?
▶ 0:37:56And we exempt that in the work requirements. It is it is in Medicaid and we exempt in the work requirements for able body. We specifically define out in statute that people suffering from substance disorder and treatment are exempted from that. Well, data from the joint economic committee shows that most Medicaid patients who receive medication treatment for opiate use disorder can only afford to do so through the Medicaid expansion. Um, so if you want to combat the opiate crisis, um, I guess the question is I don't know why you guys voted for the largest cut to Medicaid in history.
▶ 0:38:25Uh, but um, the president also says he wants to eliminate SAMA altogether. And as a reminder, this is the federal agency responsible for combating the opiate epidemic. I do you support eliminating SAMA? What I support is making sure these programs are implemented and that the missions are implemented.
▶ 0:38:45If there's a a way to offer up that we can look at and take through our committee and hearings and they're going to do it more efficiently and better as long as the core mission is accomplished, I'm open to listen to that. But absolutely, we've seen, as you said, the decrease in deaths that have happened from from our work and our legislation. I'm open to how it gets delivered, but I want to make sure it's delivered.
▶ 0:39:07Well, with all due respect to the people who are currently in in the White House, I mean, I think I would feel a lot better if I had the details about uh, you know, if they're going to streamline or they're going to transition programs, exactly how it's all going to work before we we do this. I mean, uh, you know, the president mentions the new administration for a healthy America. I mean, I don't you think that our nation's mental health and substance abuse issues are serious enough to merit the focus, you know, of an independent agency like SAMA?
▶ 0:39:34I mean, I I'm I'm just worried that you start spreading the stuff out all around the place and there's not a a primary focus and then you end up things start falling through the cracks. Um, you know, look at people are watching at people watching at home may be wondering why there would be any controversy surrounding uh support act programs given it has historically been a bipartisan issue. And let me just my final question to Mr.
▶ 0:39:58Palone is I mean can you explain what has changed since the house passed a similar version of this bill in 2023 and why wasn't this signed into law at the end of last year as part of the bipartisan biccameal health package?
▶ 0:40:12Well, you the problem was we had a bipartisan agreement in the end of the year appropriation on this and we were literally on the floor ready to pass it the debate when Elon Musk got up and said, "Oh no, we're not doing this." And I think he did like a tweet or something and then literally literally after he did the tweet while we were on the floor, everyone said, "Oh no, we're not supporting this anymore.
▶ 0:40:38we're going to go and take take all these not only the support act but I don't know maybe 40 50 other bills many of which were healthcare oriented out of the bill and that's what they did. I mean the other thing I wanted to state you know you if I could Mr. McGovern is that you know you talked about how uh you know these programs SAMA and the other support act programs you know exist in your district and how effective they've been.
▶ 0:41:04The bottom line is as you know and I think most of the members of the committee know most of this treatment and education that's effective is done on the local level. And that's the thing the one of the biggest things uh I'm concerned about is that the elimination and really all the money that goes to these programs of regional and national significant and that's the umbrella which you get all these local programs treatments and that and that is that's the the road map if you will the Trump administration to eliminate all this.
▶ 0:41:35Yeah. And let me just go chair Guthrie look I I'm not I know you share we all share the same commitment here. We we want to see um overdoses and and deaths go down in this country uh due to the opio crisis. Um I I just I I I I just worry that by just kind of putting all of our trust into the administration without the details that we're making a very very serious mistake that that some of these programs are going to fall through the cracks.
▶ 0:42:03Some of what's working as I said in Massachusetts it is working. We we we we can document that it's working. I know it's working other parts of the country that that that this that we all know this and we're having these discussions, but it's not being translated um at the executive level. And I don't want us to go backwards. I want us to go forwards. And I'm just afraid that um again uh what the administration is proposing in their budgets and in their statements and um you know to me is frightening.
▶ 0:42:32Um and the lack of details from the administration is also not reassuring to me. Um, and so, um, I just say that because I, uh, I know that you care about this stuff as well. With that, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. McGovern. Mr. Roy, you're recognized. I think, Chairwoman, and I'll be brief.
▶ 0:42:51I think um Chairman Guthrie, I mean, isn't the administration uh simply trying to uh reconcile a postcoid universe with respect to how much we're spending on programs and try to get um our budget uh in shape in a postcoid world and maybe try to return to a precoid trajectory or better. Is that not a fair state? That's accurate. My understanding is there the if you look at the reduction in force and in HHS these programs have not been effective.
▶ 0:43:21So it shows that even though they're reducing force the administration makes this a priority. The other thing is how do you do you streamline these programs into a more efficient better way to do to do business and I think we should be open to that. We won't go into it blind. We'll obviously do our homework but I but you're correct. Well, I think I think the chairman um and I think that is um you know um an appropriate thing for the administration to want to do uh in terms of what they're doing with resources. Now, I will say um you know, I'll support this rule.
▶ 0:43:50I'm I I did not support this bill when it came to the floor last time as the support act or whatever the the language was, but um but uh you know, we all have districts um and a gentleman from Virginia does. I know we all do. We all have districts where we've got folks for whom programs are very important. Um people who have opioid addictions, obviously we've had a fentanyl crisis. We have all these different issues.
▶ 0:44:13Uh I would note that, you know, I saw a headline the other day in the Post or the New York Times or somewhere saying we're trying to figure out why fentanyl seems to be going down at the border and I'm like, well, I wonder why. I wonder why that might be happening. Um maybe if you actually secure the border, maybe you can minimize some of the fentanyl flow. But putting that aside, we still have people with massive addiction problems and we have programs that are beneficial. Um, I have people who come to my office. Many of you know I'm a cancer survivor. I have people come in asking for support for money for cancer programs.
▶ 0:44:43People ALS uh support programs. One of my dear friends passed away from ALS. We all want programs for people. Um, I happen to just believe that you got to deal with that through civil society at the state and local level and that we're $36 trillion in debt and we're at best case scenario with the budget that we put forward still looking at $2 trillion of debt a year give or take depending on economic growth. Uh, my colleagues on other side of the aisle will say don't worry tax the upper brackets. Okay. I mean I asked CBO to give me some numbers.
▶ 0:45:12If you tax uh people who make over $5 million at the 43% rate, which was the rate at the end of the Clinton era in the 2000 range, it' give you about 300 billion over 10 years. Okay, putting aside the dynamic impact, that's 30 billion a year. My point is just that ain't the problem. I mean, it could be the we could put that into the mix, but that ain't the problem. The problem is we keep saying yes to every program under the sun.
▶ 0:45:34We keep, you know, President Reagan said in a great interview with Johnny Carson, he said, "Every proposal that a member of Congress puts forward should come with a tax increase attached to it because we should have to say we're going to be spending X and so maybe we need to figure out what the revenue stream is going to be for X." So, as much as the program might be auditory, I'll not be supporting the bill on the floor. I'll support the rule of course uh because it's it's it's something that the the majority wants to move forward with.
▶ 0:46:00But I just believe we've got to be uh serious in not pretending that authorizations don't ultimately end up in appropriations because whenever we authorize programs, we end up appropriating for the programs. And uh and the administration was correct to send up uh the restrictions and the reductions in spending on the non-defense side that they sent up in their budget. I think we've got to get serious about constraining the size and scope of government. So um I'll just uh note that and and I'll yield back to the Thank you, Mr. Roy. Miss Scandlin, you're recognized.
▶ 0:46:31Thank you. I think we have to thank our colleague for his refreshing cander that he's not interested in supporting SAMA and the opioid treatment programs or apparently some of the other disease programs that the federal government has um supported over time. Look, there isn't a single district in this country and probably very few families who haven't been impacted by the opioid crisis.
▶ 0:46:57Um it's been heartening to see that we've been able to make some progress over the last decade or so in forms of treatment in rolling out treatments in our communities um to get people the help they need to overcome addiction because you can't just do this from the supply side. You have to address the demand side, the people who have the addiction.
▶ 0:47:19So agencies in my community like Mental Health Partnership, Spin, and Horizon House have been instrumental in helping people in our region receive treatment and succeed in recovery. And as uh ranking member Palone noted, under different circumstances, HR 2483 would pass as a suspension bill, one that has bipartisan supermajority support in the House and not one that has to come to the rules committee. But here we are. And it's important to understand why that is.
▶ 0:47:50Um, you know, this bill cannot measurably reduce opioid addiction so long as we don't have the the resources and the agencies able to provide that support to our local local communities and so long as our Republican colleagues fail to stand up to the Trump administration's actions which are undermining the very programs that address substance use disorder.
▶ 0:48:18You can't claim to support efforts to address mental health and substance use disorders while turning a blind eye to the gutting of the federal programs that address those agencies. You can't earnestly say you want to help people struggling with addiction, but be silent when Doge fires nearly half the staff at SAMA, which leads those efforts.
▶ 0:48:38You can't be silent as the White House illegally rescends over $1 billion dollar in federal funding to support state and local behavioral health programs that treat substance use disorder. Now, I I mean, I know that there are members of the Republican conference who really care about helping people with addiction, but you can't be taken seriously as long as you turn a blind eye to the gutting of the programs that are going to help us do that. You can't have it both ways.
▶ 0:49:08So right now, while we discuss this bill, the president's proposed budget would cut funding for the Department of Health and Human Services, which leads our national addiction relief efforts by 25%. And specifically, the White House is proposing to cut a billion dollars for SAMA, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, the very agency tasked with carrying out many of the provisions authorized by this bill. Doge and Secretary of Health and Human Services RFK Jr.
▶ 0:49:38have fired thousands of employees and rescended hundreds of existing grants that were already committed that agencies, our local agencies were relying upon. So, you can't be silent in the face of those actions.
▶ 0:49:52Um, you know, it we're obviously ready and willing to work with our colleagues to provide real solutions and resources to fight the opioid crisis that is devastating far too many communities and far too many families. But it's important that we're honest with the American people and not say that this bill is going to provide those solutions or resources when under current conditions it cannot.
▶ 0:50:20Representative Palone, you talked about the local level and how these programs have to be implemented at the local level. And we've heard from both of our witnesses here today that SAMA is actually having success. We are meeting some of the challenges of of opioid abuse. I met with our community mental health providers in April. Met with about 15 of the different agencies.
▶ 0:50:44These are the people on the front lines meeting people with addiction where they are, bringing them into treatment. And if anyone here has had family members who've been addicted, you know, it's usually not the first time that you try to get someone into recovery um that it sticks. So, it's it's an arduous process for everyone involved. And I heard from our local agencies how much they rely upon the expertise of SAMA, how much they rely upon the federal funding to do their job.
▶ 0:51:14And quite frankly, at the time they were reeling because many of them had just gotten these notices from the federal government like so many of our nonprofits are getting saying, "Your program no longer meets the priorities of our agency." I mean, I think that says that the AY's priorities are misplaced at this point. This is money that Congress has appropriated. This is money that our communities are relying upon.
▶ 0:51:40I understand the desire to disrupt bureaucracy, but we seem to have a bureaucracy here that is working for folks. And disruption for the sake of causing chaos doesn't help any of us. You got to have a plan for how you're going to make it better as opposed to just tearing things down. So, uh, ranking member, can you speak a little bit to the impact on the agencies that are doing this work in our communities of what we've already seen and what the proposal in the president's budget would do? Absolutely.
▶ 0:52:10And and let me just say, look, we're an authorizing committee and you know, we can talk about the funding, which is so crucial, but you know, I don't I've never liked the idea of, you know, my getting up or any of us on Energy and Commerce getting up and saying, "Oh, we authorize this program and then there's no money for it, right? Because it's it's just not fair. You know, you're kind of given the impression you're doing something when in reality you're not." And so that's that's my biggest concern here.
▶ 0:52:37I don't want to act like I'm doing something when in fact I'm not. In fact, it's the opposite. Right. And the other thing is you pointed out is that, you know, SAMA doesn't just provide the funding for these local programs. They also provide direction and education. This isn't just about treatment. Treatment obviously very important, but it's also education because, you know, it's kind of like you said, there's three things. One is the enforcement to try to make sure that the fentanyl doesn't come in, which you know, Mr.
▶ 0:53:07Roy mentioned, but and then there's the funding for the treatment for people that, you know, need help. But there's also the education because I don't think we're going to ever eradicate, you know, drugs. I mean, people there are people that literally think that, you know, they're going to take opioids after they go to the hospital, whatever, and it's going to be okay and they're going to be fine, and they get addicted and they need treatment. I mean, a lot of people are not intentionally taking drugs.
▶ 0:53:30they they take it after they uh have an operation or something and then they find out when it's too late, you know, that this has addicted them. So, you need all of this. But the bottom line is it's expensive. And Mr. Roy is not wrong when he says it's expensive. But what's the alternative? The alternative is that people just die and we we don't deal with it. I mean, it's always a question. A budget is about priorities. And what the Trump administration is saying in fact is this is not a priority.
▶ 0:54:00We are going to take we're going to rescend a billion dollars. This is not a priority. We're not going to fund these programs in the future. This is not a priority. And and and and most of this treatment is done by at the local level. So if you take away the money and you don't give the grants as I talked about with these, you know, regional and national significance, they're not going to have the money. And right now, even though they're making a lot of progress and everybody's admitted that, there's still not enough money and there's still not enough treatment plants.
▶ 0:54:28And if anybody here thinks, and I don't think you do, that you can do this privately, forget it. I mean, have you checked out some of these ads on TV about these treatment programs and how much they cost, they're not covered by, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars, way beyond the reach of the average person if you got to pay for it all privately. So, that's best I can say in response to what you brought up.
▶ 0:54:51Well, I I think you're right and it is about priorities and it is about where we invest the taxpayers funds and I think investing in people to help them get rid of the substance abuse. I mean, I've heard from so many of our union members, someone gets injured on the job, they end up being given some medication to get over it and and then they get hooked and they're in this situation. Um, we've got there's just so much going on and of course just telling people, you know, we're all going to die doesn't really cut it. I think we do need to invest in these programs.
▶ 0:55:21I think the way that the money has been pulled out from under these programs is a huge problem. And we're talking about a lot of programs that are not these, you know, topdoll, you know, tens of thousands of dollars in cushy conditions. We're talking about places that are meeting people where they are um in our communities, day programs, etc. And they're really, really necessary. So, um I think we need to make it a priority of of our agencies and administrations and uh you can't do that without funding or personnel to administrate. So, thank you for your testimony.
▶ 0:55:52Thank you. Thank you, Miss Scandlin. Miss Fishbach, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. And Chairman Guthrie, is there anything you'd like to respond to regarding the last questions? I just want to say that that we agree that that people with substance use disorder and Mr.
▶ 0:56:07McGovern also brought up that a lot of people get their their treatment through Medicaid and and I just want to to stress that we specifically exempted people with substance use disorder and and we want we wanted to define and we we I believe we strongly defined that the people who are have to work to get Medicaid are able-bodied and we use there's we went back and forth to try to get the language right because we want to make sure it was correct the term medically frail because there somebody came to my office and what if somebody is diagnosed
▶ 0:56:37with cancer in the work requirements and so well medically frail. We've got all this in. So we we put those in there but we specifically put substance use disorder. So we don't want anybody in the future to say well that's not medically frail. That's a decision that people make or people get addicted to that and and so I just want to to say that we specifically did that. And then and then the reduction of force in Samcha. I'll still uh bring out that these programs have have been a priority even with reduced staff.
▶ 0:57:06They're focusing on these programs and we look forward to to listen to the proposal from the administration and we want to make sure that I think most members of Congress want to see this move forward. And and just as a side note, I appreciate the work you did on the reconciliation bill. I mean, I know that. Yes. What was it? 22 hours, but it was far more 26, wasn't it? Well, it was far more hours than that, honestly, because you had, you know, you had worked on it for months before. So, I appreciate that.
▶ 0:57:36And I think you really did, you were able to thread the needle on that and make sure that the program was still, you know, was strong and that the people that needed it will get it. Thank you. And so, I appreciate that. And with this bill, you know, I appreciate you bringing this one forward because, you know, um I hear from law enforcement and from uh medical professionals in my district that we need programs and I think this will help strengthen um the ones that Trump put into place in his first term.
▶ 0:58:05So, I appreciate you bringing this forward and I just wanted to actually give you the opportunity to respond and I appreciate that you did. So, with that, I yield Thank you, Miss Fishbach. Mr. Langworth that you're recognized. Yes, Chairman Guthrie, thank you for being here today. Ranking member Palom, it's uh always good to see you. Is uh multiple people have pointed out already we've seen real decline in the numbers uh in positive yardage being made on this crisis.
▶ 0:58:34I mean, went from 83,000 overdoses in 2023 to just under 55,000 in 2024. How has the support for patients and communities that contributed to this decline and how could this positive trend be impacted if we do uh if we don't move forward with reauthorizing these underlying programs? Well, the the biggest um effect on overdose deaths.
▶ 0:59:00So, we try to look at what's the difference in overdose deaths and and just incidents of overdoses. overdose deaths were the training for the emergency professionals the access of of nlloxxone on the spot. So you didn't have to you know by the time you have someone that's overdose you discover that and you have to go to a pharmacy to get a prescription is is is obviously the time is is is just critical the timing. So that's been the biggest part of it. But I know in my state I can tell you and a lot of it through Medicaid.
▶ 0:59:29That's why we well not just because it's my state, but I understand it and work to exempt is that people have access to this treatment because of Medicaid. Had a lot of state legislators when some of the proposals were being bandied about in the in the bill, the reconciliation bill.
▶ 0:59:44And I think access to treatment, but I don't you can't dismiss just the access to life- saving uh nlloxxone which my understanding is uh one of the other it starts with a z can't think of oh no I can think of it right now doesn't respond to nlloxxone and so that's a scary thing that we have to focus on as well. All right. Well, thank you chairman Guthrie.
▶ 1:00:06I I do think our colleagues across the aisle here need to take a little bit of a break from the neverending opposition to President Trump and the administration and remember that programs under this bill work. They should be reauthorized and they can continue to help save lives in communities across this nation and all 50 states. Uh and with that, uh Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank the gentleman for yielding back. Now recognize myself for questions that I may ask.
▶ 1:00:35Um, good to see you you both. It's always good to work with you both. Uh, and sometimes we have disagreements, but we try to work them out. One of the things that concerns me, Chairman Guthrie, is um, some of the programs inside the support act are programs that are already helping. That's part of the reason why we have had a reduction. It's not the only reason, but it's part of the reason we've had a reduction in the overdose uh, deaths, etc.
▶ 1:01:03Can you talk about the importance of section uh 103 of the support act that would bolster the ability of prescription drug monitoring programs to track the prescribing of prescription drugs both within the state and across state lines? Well, it's vital because one of the big problems that we saw in my home state. I was actually in the general assembly when this first kind of took over the first wave.
▶ 1:01:23A lot of it was in Appalachia and a lot of it was in the Medicaid uh community and it was it was it was legally prescribed drugs that I know Judiciary and others have taken on with that just in you know in Virginia we see in West Virginia just the overprescription of Oxycontton in those drugs but in that time what people would do is get a prescription go from pharmacy to pharmacy to pharmacy and just get drug after drug after drug this prescription.
▶ 1:01:47So, actually was Howal Rogers who was our colleague, the dean, Dean Rogers, uh, put in a program that he got through appropriations process, wasn't authorized, got through the appropriations process to to help set up that people could that that if you went to the I won't call out any of my cities, but if you went to this city in Appalachia's pharmacy and you went to this other one on the other side of the hollow, then they knew it. They knew it. Well, the problem also came if you're in my great state.
▶ 1:02:15I'm 26 miles from the Tennessee border. You're right on the border with my my my Commonwealth. And so going across the border, that's why we have to do it at this is one thing that really needs to be federal because you can't just have a a Tennessee system or Virginia system, a Kentucky or a New Jersey, New York system. I know the tunnels there. You can you can just go back and forth pretty easy. It's it's it's it's important that this piece is federal because people can go across state lines pretty easily and and fortunately we've cracked down on Oxycottton.
▶ 1:02:45We've cracked down a lot of other things since then. But this prescription drug monitoring is important because it you know that this person is getting the same prescription three filled three or four, five, six, 10 different places in some cases and this prevents that. Yeah. And and what made that even more complicated is one of the reasons that I introduced this section. How did work? I did work. We've all done work in this area trying to solve the problems.
▶ 1:03:09Is that we calculated if you really put your mind to it and you lived in my district, you could actually get a prescription filled in each of five states in a single day. Uh because if you know, you'd have to you'd have to work it. You'd have to start early in the morning and go to whenever the pharmacy closed down that evening.
▶ 1:03:27But uh I border uh West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and in fact there at uh at one point all three states, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia all come together and you're only about maybe an hour from West Virginia at that point. And then you've got North Carolina just down the road as well.
▶ 1:03:46So you could actually, you know, swing through the Cumberland Gap, uh, hit Kentucky, Virginia, be down in Tennessee, and from and as you cross Virginia, and go into Johnson City, Tennessee, uh, think a wagon wheel, uh, song, you can suddenly be in North Carolina in about, I don't know, 30 minutes from Johnson City. So I mean, it's it would not be impossible, which is why this is so important.
▶ 1:04:12But more importantly, for those who who now, and I understand they're frustrated with some of the things that are going on, but for those who say, "Well, I used to support this, but now I can't." U this will take away, if we don't pass this, will it not take away some of the programs that have actually been part of the solution? I'm understanding the authorizations will expire. Yeah, section 103 clearly expires. Let me talk some more about section 103 because it also allows for the analyzing of wastewater monitoring to track any patterns related to prescription drugs.
▶ 1:04:42Why is utilate utilizing wastewater monitoring so important in our fight against substance abuse and illicit drugs? Well, it it sees so the wastewater monitoring it sees what kind of opioids or any kind of drugs are in the wastewater. So, you know, if it's if it if there's a obviously you know where the the waste water is flowing from. So if you test the waste water and you say high incidents, the good thing about it is you can identify who the wastewater is coming from, but you can see where it's coming from. So you can kind of make uh decisions about where to deploy resources.
▶ 1:05:11If it's if one region, if you're in a section of the Commonwealth of Kentucky and there's a high incidence of wastewater of having opioids in the waste water, you know, that's an area you need to concentrate on. But you can't identify the person that wastewater came from, which that's why it's a it's a good tool to monitor, actually. Yeah.
▶ 1:05:28I I mean I'm I'm a big fan of checking wastewater uh not just for the reasons you stated but and maybe we need to figure out a way to to have it go across multiple agencies but because we also can use it for disease uh tracking not just the disease of substance abuse where people may be you know having that but folks back home this is you know it gets a little bathroomy but the truth of the matter is is that whatever's in your body flushes out and it ends up in the waste water treatment center.
▶ 1:05:59What we also know is we can find phagee viruses which attack bacteria in that same wastewater. So we probably need to if we have somebody out collecting wastewater in various sites, they might ought to be getting extra samples for our researchers who are doing work both on uh monitoring disease at CDC and doing work on phase uh possible cures. You would right and and it protects your privacy. Like I said, you don't know where the waste water who the waste water came from. Whose waste it is, but we know came from somebody. Exactly.
▶ 1:06:29It's a good way to monitor. Yeah. Let me let me raise this issue, too, because I think we all agree that a lot of these programs are are very helpful. Um but and and and this does not mean that the programs aren't doing some good work, but you may recall that you and I and former chair Kathy McMorris Rogers sent a series of letters in 2023 because we were having a hard time tracking down exactly how SAMA had spent
▶ 1:07:00billion that was allocated for COVID response and that even when we got an answer back, we didn't get full answers. So then we had to write more letters asking to give us documentation both on how they were spending money on uh that 8 billion but also 900 million that was invested in the 988 crisis uh care system which deals directly with suicide and mental health issues and we we just couldn't get those answers tracked down.
▶ 1:07:29So while I recognize that SAMA has done some great work and I think there's a lot of positives we also don't We we didn't get cooperation on trying to figure out where all the money was going. So, it's a little disingenuous. Would you not agree to say that that trying to to rein it in or figure out how we can be more efficient is not an appropriate uh response in some ways. I think it's appropriate, but we want to accomplish the mission. Absolutely.
▶ 1:07:57and and they have done some great work over the years, but that doesn't mean that there that any agency might not get uh a little out over at skis sometimes or or in a situation where they're not as effective as maybe they could be with the amount of money that we're spending in there. I mean, the one letter that we wrote was about 8 billion dollars. Uh and then you're talking about 900 million for the other which which had a serious uh hacking incident.
▶ 1:08:24and they asked us, they said, "Well, y you can just go get your answers from the FBI," which didn't really seem very satisfactory at the time. Anyway, with that, I will yield back and now um Miss Ledger Fernandez. Thank you. Uh thank you very much. Thank you, chair, and thank you, ranking member, for being here. And I need to just share you at the outset as we began the questioning that I lost not one but two brothers to substance abuse and mental health.
▶ 1:08:52And so, and I lost them at a time when in New Mexico, we were not providing the kind of mental health and assistance with drug abuse that we know saves lives. And so, this issue for me is personal. It's personal for New Mexicans.
▶ 1:09:09It's personal for rural communities across this And it is therefore really difficult for me when we see that these programs are so important and make a difference and are supported by somebody like you, right, chair? You you're you're here because you believe these programs make a difference.
▶ 1:09:34So, it's really frustrating when we see that the president's budget doesn't really fund them and when we see that the president is firing the people that carry out these programs.
▶ 1:09:49And so that's why it's difficult for me when I deal with these issues because it seems like there is a disconnect between your beliefs and values and what the president is doing and and and and I think that that is something that has been brought up earlier and that is reasonable for us to wonder about. So I guess I would ask and you already said you absolutely believe in these programs. Do you believe they should be funded?
▶ 1:10:19I do believe and and I think we ought to give credence if should they be more can they be more efficiently brought forward and and the White House comes and makes a case before Congress and we look at their budget if they can do them more efficiently. I I absolutely believe this mission with prescription drug monitoring prenatal all the I could go through the list but that all needs to be it's it's a role that we have that we need to help communities. So, have you have you criticized the firings of uh the the people who work at SAMA?
▶ 1:10:48Well, I you know, I want to give people the chance to do things in an efficient way if they can. The of the firings in in SAMA, these programs are have not been affected by those firings. My understanding is that's what's been relayed to us. And so, it shows they're making these a priority. Well, what we have here that you know the director of the center for mental health uh services and the director of the center for substance use treatment are no longer there.
▶ 1:11:14These are precisely the kind of programs that we need to be supporting and that the bill would look at supporting. Uh that's the information I have. And is that ranking member is that is that information correct? your information is correct, but there's also the fact that there's a bill over a billion dollars in recisions for the state and local program. So, the money even though it's been obligated has been rescended. Whether or not the people in charge are there, there's the money's gone, right?
▶ 1:11:43And I think we need to remember that you can't say we support these programs and then not speak out or vote against and advocate against the firings. I mean, you cannot have it both ways, right? You cannot. Courage means standing up for these programs even to a president of your own party. And you know that we have stood up to the president of our party when we thought he should be doing better.
▶ 1:12:08And it's not surprising to me that President Trump would be doing this to these programs because I recall because I remember these things because of the personal nature that when he was running he said and I believe this is the quote and for those who are severely mentally ill and deeply disturbed we will bring them back to the mental institutions where they belong. Close quote.
▶ 1:12:37I mean, the problem is that from my perspective with President Trump is he talks about the drug crisis strictly in terms of the border, right? He says we're going to stop fentanyl and the drugs from coming into the country, but that's only part of the problem. You still need the treatment. You still need the education. You still need the direction at the federal level. And if you fire the people, I mean, there, you know, it's not just the heads of uh of SAMA.
▶ 1:13:05he's fired a lot of the people that actually work there that are, you know, more rank and file or whatever you call it, as well as rescended all this money. So, we need to both stop, we need to address the the security issues of fentinol and other things flowing into the country, but we also have to address the demand. We have to treat mental illness and drug addiction as a healthc care issue. Absolutely.
▶ 1:13:29And and as an education issue because otherwise, you know, we've talked already about this. People start taking these opioids and ever drugs after they have an operation, after they have pain. They don't realize that uh they're going to get addicted. I mean, that's just as much of a problem as people who intentionally take fentanyl because they want to high, you know, and that's an that that's all part of this these cuts too is all the educational aspect.
▶ 1:13:58So, and you know, we have been making progress. It's it when we cite statistics I can tell you I have met with so many families because of my own pain that I carry is statistics mean nothing if you've lost somebody right no absolutely but they did drop opio overdose deaths in US about 17% in the last year uh that Biden was in office because there was a bipartisan and I
▶ 1:14:28think the chairman acknowledged that there was a bipartisan effort effort to address these things. So, uh I am the last Democrat that gets to ask questions of Ranking Member Falone. I know there have been some statements about a couple of things uh that I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to uh especially I think when we think about the fact that there is a role uh that Medicaid pro uh uh provides with regards to addressing issues around mental health and addiction.
▶ 1:14:59I I knew there were a few things that you wanted to respond to that had been asked earlier. Well, I I just want to refute a lot of the Republican arguments today are based on the the notion that yes, um these programs are effective, the you know, the the treatment, the drugs, you know, all this is going down. But then at the same time, when I come back or Democrats come back and say, "Yeah, but you're you're rescending a billion dollars. You're cutting the people out that administer the program.
▶ 1:15:29You're you have a budget that basically eliminates all these programs, right? You're not going to convince me that somehow you're going to be able to continue this effort to to reduce the problem with elicit drugs or people taking drugs if you eliminate the programs and cut the money that's been effective. But in addition to that, we don't have any information.
▶ 1:15:51You know, we we send letters, we send inquiries, we ask the administration, RFK Jr., okay, well, if you're going to get rid of SAMA and put it into Make America Great or whatever they call this new administration, right? How do you expect that you're going to continue these programs if there is no SAMA? If there if these different projects aren't available anymore and there's no response.
▶ 1:16:14So to suggest that somehow well they're going to make it more efficient and we're going to be able to do the same thing with less money or no money or without SAMA. Well, you got to explain to us how and there they don't. So I have no reason to believe that this reorganization this, you know, lack of funding, all these things are going to happen and these and it's just and and and that it's just going to be as effective. No.
▶ 1:16:39And so that's why I think that saying you want to reorganize this program, but at the same time you know that all the money's disappearing, the SAMA is not going to exist and you admit that it's it's it's helpful is still going to continue. I I think you're just delusional if you think that and you know I'm always raising the issues about rural America uh because that is my beautiful district and uh you know the impact on the rural America that you know Mr.
▶ 1:17:06chairman of the rural America that many of us know will be devastated if we do not continue to invest actual resources and not just words. I mean it comes down to where are you voting with regards to putting funding because it takes people, it takes beds, it takes actual uh resources to provide the health care uh that those who are struggling with addiction and mental health deserve. If there's nothing is there anything else, ranking member?
▶ 1:17:35No, thank you for the opportunity. Okay. Did you want to I would just say that I I just want to say day before yesterday I was in Ununice, New Mexico at the at the reduction plant and uh that is rural. I thought I had rural district. That is rural. Yeah. It's beautiful though. It's his own. I assume that's in your district. Yeah, I incredibly beautiful the rural district. Uh in many in many of my counties, there are more heads of cattle than there are people.
▶ 1:18:05Uh and uh uh the people who are there like it that way. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you very much, Cameron. I yield back. Gentle lady yields back. I I have counties where or parts of counties where the the sheep and the cattle outnumber the people. Yeah, that that that gets tough. Yeah. Oh, in our area they're all together. I now recognize Mr. Jack for his time of questioning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Chairman Guthrie.
▶ 1:18:33I want to ask you to elaborate a little bit on the advocacy groups that are supporting this legislation. As I understand over 60 groups uh support this passage and would love for you to expound upon the coalition aspect of us trying to to pass this critical. Yeah, they are. I mean, this is an area that affects everybody. So, there are a lot of advocacy groups that have joined to to to be for this bill.
▶ 1:18:54And I think if if the biggest thing if we get into a I think the the biggest thing if you say these you want these programs to continue is to vote for this bill and then it allows us to to move this through the Senate is obviously going to take a bipartisan vote in the Senate for this bill to go to be signed go to the president and put it on the president's desk to sign. I think that's important to do. But we have a lot of advocacy groups. I don't have the list in front of me but they're important.
▶ 1:19:19Well, and we saw after this was reauthorized in 2018, obviously we talked about at length today, a a decrease in terms of opioid related deaths. I'm just curious, could you speak for the committee on let's assume we pass this and work together to to do so? What's the impact 5 10 years from now if we get this done this Congress? Well, I would like to say as I said in my u early statement, I think 83,000 deaths down to 54,000 deaths, which is way too many. And I want to see that number to continue to decrease.
▶ 1:19:48And we had 2,000 deaths in Kentucky last year. We have roughly around a thousand car accidents. So we have more people dying for opioid use disorder than we have past or been just poisoning. Some people don't even know they're taking a an opioid. They get a a poison fentinel pill. And so uh but but this I think what we would like to see is a continued decrease. You know, the hope is to zero. I'm not sure that I'm going to predict that it'll go to zero over the next decade.
▶ 1:20:17But if we can continue to see the same decrease that we've had, it'll it'll save substantial number of lives. Thank you. And with that, Mr. Chair, I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Now recognize Mr. Scott for his time of question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And um I don't really have any questions. I mean, I just looking at it again. It 3 93 to 8, 98 to 1. 393 to8 in the House, 98 to1 Senate.
▶ 1:20:45Just chairman, do you expect a bunch of opposition to the legislation on the floor? Well, I hope that it passes with without a bunch of without opposition, but you know, I've always looked at things. I've had people before say, well, we you can't vote for that bill because it didn't go through subcommittee or regular committee or regular order. And I've always told my staff say, you know what, I got to look at the judge based on the policy, not based on the process.
▶ 1:21:10And so hopefully if we do that, I think we almost all of us those numbers agree on the the policy. I mean it's bipartisan. Everybody understands how important this is and hopefully the the process won't affect it. We can get that kind of vote that you're talking about. M Mr. Palone, are you opposing the legislation on the floor? Yes. Just out of curiosity, opposing it because I do believe you just want to know yes or no. You want to know why? No.
▶ 1:21:35You can I don't want I don't want a dissertation on it, but you can tell me why you're opposed to this piece of legislation because it passes 420 or something. Yeah. I don't know what the final vote would be, but the the bottom line is I don't believe that we should be authorizing something as a committee or as a Congress and giving the impression that somehow this is going to lead to the program being improved. I don't think so. There's no the money is being rescended. The staff is being rescended.
▶ 1:22:04uh and the and the B and and the the uh agency S allow the program to expire then well I think it's going to expire because of what the administration is doing. It's it's it doesn't matter whether we vote for it or not. They're killing it. I I don't I don't agree with you on that perspective. I mean, it it's uh I I I mean, I think it's kind of a ridiculous bill to be opposed to in my opinion.
▶ 1:22:34I mean, look, the the every segment of society, if you haven't been to a funeral from someone who's died from a drug overdose, you're one of the few few pe few people in this country. I mean, and and it's worked its way into every aspect of every society. and uh some of them die, some of them are um just damaged permanently from it. But uh I I hope the bill passes and and I hope you know when when it gets to the floor that you'll support it. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield.
▶ 1:23:03Gentlemen yields back. That concludes our questions. We thank the witnesses for being here. Thank you, Chairman Guthrie and Ranking Member Palone for your excellent testimony. And we'll take a brief recess or no, just 30 seconds. 30 seconds. All right.
▶ 1:23:20calling up the second panel as soon as we can get all those ENC folks to clear All
▶ 1:24:21right, we'll get back to business. I now welcome our second panel, Representative Vanine and Ranking Member Velasquez from the Committee on Small Business. Your full statement will be submitted for the record, and we ask that you summarize your statement in five minutes. Representative Van Dine, I welcome you for your testimony. You're now recognized. Thank you very much. Uh, Madam Chair, uh, Ranking Member McGovern, and members of the committee for the opportunity to testify before you today.
▶ 1:24:46I am pleased to speak in support of three important bills which were recently reported favorably out of the House Committee on Small Business. And together, these bills would restore proper oversight capabilities on small business lending company licenses. Oversight which was irresponsibly undone by the Biden Harris administration and codify two of President Trump's key executive orders aimed at protecting American citizens from radical sanctuary city policies and rooting out fraud in SBA lending programs by ensuring taxpayerbacked loans are not granted
▶ 1:25:16to individuals unlawfully present in the United States. I'd like to begin by discussing HR 2987, the capping excessive awarding of SPLC entrance act of 2025 or the cease act which is introduced by representative brushan from uh uh Pennsylvania. Small business lending companies or SPLC's are non-banking lending entities authorized by the SBA to issue 7A government guaranteed loans.
▶ 1:25:40The SBA serves as their primary federal regulator and in the early 1980s the the SBA imposed a cap on the number of SPLC license citing limited and insufficient regulatory capacity. That cap remained in place for over 40 years and the Biden administration moved to expand the program. Despite bipartisan concerns, the SBA under President Biden granted new licenses, including to at least one entity that ended up shutting down its US operations just one month later.
▶ 1:26:08Without a doubt, these licenses were granted to institutions that lacked even basic financial stability. Although some of our Democratic colleagues have expressed agreement with the need for a cap, their only concern with this bill is the lack of the preservation of a pilot program called Community Advantage. As SBA administrator Kelly Leler has noted, the Community Advantage program is a perfect example of how the last administration weaponized government programs to tip the scale against deserving small businesses and toward preferred groups and political allies, even when it meant greater risk to the American taxpayer.
▶ 1:26:38HR 2987 ensures that future administrations cannot stretch the SBA's oversight capacity beyond what's reasonable, protecting the integrity of the 7A loan program. Next, I would like to discuss two complimentary bills. HR 2931, the Save SBA from Sanctuary Cities Act of 2025, introduced by Representative Finstad and my bill HR 2966, the American Entrepreneurs First Act of 2025.
▶ 1:27:03Together, these bills represent some of the first legislative efforts on the House floor to codify President Trump's executive orders 14218 and 14159, which stocks stop taxpayer dollars from being used to support illegal aliens and end federal taxpayer support to sanctuary cities. Sanctuary cities have become magnets for crime and chaos. These are jurisdictions where liberal politicians have chosen to ignore federal immigration law, giving violent criminals a free pass while endangering law-abiding citizens.
▶ 1:27:33You have to look no further than recent headlines to see that officials refusing to cooperate with ICE has led to a total breakdown of law in order. HR 2931 will require the SBA to relocate offices out of sanctuary cities that protect criminal illegal aliens by refusing to comply with federal immigration law.
▶ 1:27:51The amendment filed by Chairman Williams will ensure that relocated offices will still benefit small businesses in law-abiding cities, and it also removes the exemption for jurisdictions that provide safety to illegal immigrants who report or witness crime. HR 2966 requires citizenship verification for SBA assistance to ensure that illegal aliens are not approved for SBA loans as they were under the Biden Harris administration.
▶ 1:28:17An untold number of criminals, gang members, human traffickers, and terrorists were among the millions of illegal aliens welcomed into the country by the Biden Harris administration. Many of these illegal aliens have sought refuge in sanctuary cities under local leadership, proud of the fact that they provide shelter to criminal illegal aliens. Innocent victims are paying the price. And I am thankful that the Trump administration is taking a whole of government approach to restore integrity to our immigration laws.
▶ 1:28:47At the SBA, Administrator Leler is tightening the requirements for loan applications and has announced that she will relocate the SBA's region off regional offices out of sanctuary cities. HR 2966 codifies these efforts so that future administrations will not redirect SBA loan opportunities to illegal immigrants. in HR 2931 codifies the Trump administration's effort to protect Americans from the crime born out of sanctuary cities.
▶ 1:29:14I appreciate you continue considering my testimony today in support of these important measures and I yield back. Thank you, gentle lady. Now recognize ranking member Velasquez for her five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and ranking member and members of the rules committee. I appreciate the chance to testify today.
▶ 1:29:36I wish we were here to talk about deals to help small businesses grow or policies that address challenges like tariffs. Unfortunately, small business uncertainty is at his highest level in decades and we're hearing their fears about rising costs from tariffs and chaos and supply chains. This bill do not address those issues at all.
▶ 1:30:03At a time when small businesses are struggling with so many challenges, these bills will limit access to capital, weaken proven lending programs, and punish entrepreneurs based on politics. HR 2966 would block legally operating small businesses from getting SBA loans.
▶ 1:30:26The SBA previously required that a US citizen or permanent resident own at least 51% of a loan recipient's business. Under current policy, the SBA now requires a loan applicant to prove 100% ownership. We're starting to hear cases of owners losing access to loans just for 1% of foreign investment.
▶ 1:30:52Despite what my colleagues claim, the committee has not seen any evidence, and I repeat again, any evidence, not a shred of evidence, that this system has failed or undocumented immigrants are getting loans. This bill is the solution to a problem that simply does not exist. The bill also creates a massive compliance burden for SBA lenders.
▶ 1:31:23For years, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle have complained about reporting requirements under CFPB's section 1071 regulations or the corporate transparency act. So why the silence now? Requiring verification of citizenship down to the last percentage point could lead many lenders to stop participating in SBA programs altogether.
▶ 1:31:51Without lenders, access to critical financing will decline. It is a cruel policy that is already starting to harm hardworking entrepreneurs, especially at a time when many are trying to move manufacturing The CES act will place a hard cap on the number of SBA licenses issues to non-bank lenders under the 7A loan program. I understand the interest in oversight.
▶ 1:32:22I was one of the first to raise question when the SBA lifted the licensing moratorum. Unfortunately, this bill does nothing to protect community advantage SBLC holders, which focus small dollar loans to new and underserved businesses and has facilitated over a billion dollars worth of loans to small businesses.
▶ 1:32:47Many industry stakeholders fear that the CA lenders will be eliminated, which will be devastating for rural veteranowned firsttime entrepreneurs. We should work together to strengthen the program, not push through legislation that could undo years of progress.
▶ 1:33:07Finally, HR 2931 will force the SBA to relocate its offices out of cities that Republicans has labeled as sanctuaries jurisdiction. This will mean closing SBA offices in just because the administration doesn't like their politics.
▶ 1:33:28As we saw recently, DHS DHS cannot always justify the sanctuary label and even sheriffs are pushing back. Madame Chair, Mr. Chair. Um I would like to enter for the record two articles. One from the Chicago Tribune list of sanctuary jurisdiction removed from US government website allowing following website following criticism.
▶ 1:33:58And then another one from NPR Homeland Security pulls down list of sanctuary cities and counties after backlash. There's no clear plan for how these regulation will work. Without objection. Thank you. So ordered. There's no clear plan for how these relocations will work, how much they will cost, or how they will affect services.
▶ 1:34:22This bill will dedicate taxpayer resources to arbitrarily moving SBA offices that are operating effectively. This will hurt millions of entrepreneurs in our largest city who rely on inerson support to start, run, and grow their businesses. Each of this bill is going to hurt a large number of small business owners, which hurts our economy and community. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:34:52I thank the gentle lady for yielding back and now recognize Miss Fishbach for her time of question. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And uh thank you, Miss Bandine. Is this Is this your first time in rules? It is. Well, congratulations. There you go. I I didn't think I'd seen you before, Representative. So, but um you know, I appreciate you bringing the bills forward and some of these are are really important. I mean, really make a clear statement.
▶ 1:35:20And uh um Representative Vanine, is there any reason why the federal government should continue to invest in office space and provide federal SBA jobs in jurisdictions that actively openly defy federal law? I would say no. In fact, what you're doing is you're putting those those federal employees in harm's way. We have seen it. You don't have to look any further than what you saw this past weekend at what happens in cities that actually are harboring that are protecting criminal illegal aliens.
▶ 1:35:49So, we should not be putting our federal employees in harm. And that's exactly what we'd be doing. And thank you for pointing that out because that was the point that I wanted to make is these are not the these are not free of criminals. They they are well they allow these folks to stay. They are increasing the crime rate. They are putting people at risk. They are doing all kinds of things.
▶ 1:36:08Um the the American Entrepreneur First Act um would simply require that businesses receiving federal assistant be owned by American citizens or by lawfully permanent residents. How how can this be controversial? You I that's a great question. Um I don't know how this can be controversial. um to the gentleoman um uh my my colleague from uh small business on the left.
▶ 1:36:33She says that there was no example at all of how this has has been has been misused e except there is. So SBA administrator Kelly Laughafler actually identified a loan for nearly a million dollars that went to a company that was owned 49% by an illegal alien. Thankfully, the SBA resend or rescended the loan, but the impact is that nearly a million dollars in business loans was almost taken away from a legitimate American-owned entrepreneur.
▶ 1:36:58These should be focused on American businesses, American small businesses in particular that have been so hurt over the last four years. And that's where they're the uh direction of this bill. and and so it's far more controversial to to leave it um and allow those kind that kind of fraud and abuse to continue than it is to change this so that it is clear what is going on.
▶ 1:37:20And and actually this bill does nothing to prevent people with temporary visas or illegal immigrants uh from holding jobs at those businesses. Um it doesn't prevent them from owning a small business. What it just prevents is that they get access to taxpayer dollars. Correct. And so I just wanted to so I appreciate that you brought this forward and um you know I appreciate that you're prioritizing those folks that are taxpaying people and have legitimate status here.
▶ 1:37:50So I appreciate that. Thank you Miss Miss Van for bringing it forward and I yield back. Thank you. Gentle lady yields back now recognize Miss Scandlin for her time of question. Thank you. Um, we've heard some odd arguments, I think, in support of these bills.
▶ 1:38:03And I'll be honest, I really struggle to understand how it's going to help the small businesses in our region because these bills don't seem to meet the needs of those businesses that are reaching out to our office for help as they try to particularly navigate the chaos, the economic chaos that we're seeing from Trump's tariff wars and the disruption to our economy and the small business administration that have occurred over the first five months of this administration.
▶ 1:38:33So, these are some of the first bills from the Small Business Committee to come through the rules committee since Republicans took the majority over two years ago and and they really seem to just be fodder for the Republican base and filler for the legislative calendar. Um, it almost seems insulting to the nation's small business owners to get a bunch of lip service when we're not actually providing help to them.
▶ 1:38:58Right now, across the country, our nation's small businesses are struggling to deal with the fallout from the president's disastrous tariff policies. Nearly every week, the policies change in a truth social post or a meme tweet, and we find out that this or that tariff is going to be higher or lower, that some are going to be delayed and others aren't, or that some amounts will be stacked and others combined.
▶ 1:39:21It's become a full-time job for businesses in our our country to keep up with the effective tariff rate, let alone plan how they're going to handle the financial impact of those tariffs, which are essentially taxes on those businesses and and their customers. So, we've heard from dozens of small businesses in our district about uh lines of business that are being destroyed by the tariffs. Many are planning to lay off staff. They're cancelling upcoming capital and construction projects.
▶ 1:39:50Some are facing the prospect of having to shut down completely. And these impacts are having ripple effects across our entire local economy. More unemployment, less business spending, and less investment. And then of course there end up being secondary impacts to contractors, to suppliers, and to buyers of manufactured goods because most small businesses don't have the resources to ride out this kind of economic chaos like Amazon or Facebook or Tesla, any of the president's billionaire
▶ 1:40:20donors and buddies. If our colleagues actually care about small businesses and want to do something to help them, the number one thing they could do right now is find a spine and push back on these tariffs. But instead, our colleagues and the speaker have actually blocked the House of Representatives from considering any legislation to end the fake national emergency that has been relied upon as justification for these tariffs.
▶ 1:40:46The Constitution says that Congress is the arm of the federal government responsible for setting tariffs and regulating foreign trade, not the White House. Congress could end these tariff wars today. But instead, the House majority is saying, "Hope, not our problem.
▶ 1:41:02Just let the White House wreck havoc on the economy and disrupt our relationship with many of our closest allies." So then we have the in addition we have these specific bills before us today that are only going to make it harder for small businesses to access small business administration resources.
▶ 1:41:21If we look at HR 2931, a bill that would force the Small Business Administration to close existing offices in many of the nation's major cities, impacting tens of thousands of small business owners. How's that efficient? It'll be a massive waste of taxpayer dollars to relocate all these offices. As the ranking member maintained, we've seen no evidence that there's justification to do so.
▶ 1:41:50Our Republican colleagues, I don't think, have any legitimate evidence that a single undocumented immigrant has inappropriately received a small business loan. And as uh given our Republican colleagues focus on cutting government bloat, um why is it a good idea to add a whole new layer of compliance costs for the banks and credit unions that issue small business loans?
▶ 1:42:16None of this sounds very efficient either to me or to the small business owners in our region. um it it just doesn't really seem to to help the conditions that actual small businesses are dealing with. Um ranking member, I know that there was some discussion about what kind of evidence has been introduced to support these changes. Do you want to comment on that or anything else?
▶ 1:42:41Well, I think that is irresponsible to um push legislation that will have an impact on small businesses and not having any type of oversight, any uh um hearing in the committee, bringing expert uh witnesses to testify.
▶ 1:43:02And again, if you're saying that undocumented, ineligible people are getting those loans, show me the proof. You have only one thing that you're saying, one case that the current administrator is pointing to. I don't know because we haven't seen it. She hasn't been before the committee. But I can tell you that this is going to be detrimental to small businesses.
▶ 1:43:32The bill harms American small businesses by preventing them from accessing credit. It likely violates the Equal Credit Opportunity Act. SBA lenders have been calling my office because they are concerned that if they deny these loans to this businesses, they could be accused of violation of ECOA.
▶ 1:43:58It runs counter to the SBA's mission and runs a fool of prudent underwriting by basing origination on borrowers's national origination, not the creditworthiness. And let me just say the fact that only one case was found, even if it's true, it shows that the system works.
▶ 1:44:25I I appreciate your bringing those facts to light. Um, you know, seeing yet another instance of trying to stir up fear of immigrants, etc., as a basis for some really radical policy changes that are going to really hurt small businesses and that are going to be a grotesque um waste of taxpayer dollars especially with closing offices etc.
▶ 1:44:53Um really appreciate your testimony and I yield back. Gentle yield is back. Now recognize the gentle gentleman from South Carolina. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I want to thank each of you for coming. Um, you know, I think aren't we talking about not letting illegals who are illegal in this country getting a SBA loan that is financed by the government? That's the law.
▶ 1:45:19Is that not And so if it's not a problem, then you should vote for this bill. If it's not a problem like you say it is, Mr. Hold on. I I'll let you respond. Okay. if it's not a problem um and then support it because um I think you would acknowledge the 15 million or more in this country that President Biden let in. I'm in this world. I'm a developer.
▶ 1:45:48I'm the one that we've done SBA loans. Tell me where I'm off. So first, the Small Business Act prohibits any assistance to individuals who are unlawfully in the United States. That's the law. If there is a particular case like the one that she mentioned, the thing that they have to do, the administrator, is to turn over that case to the inspector general to investigate.
▶ 1:46:17We have no knowledge of any investigation. Well, we don't have a inspector general in place anyway, but there is no evidence to show that undocumented immigrants are receiving SBA loans. This is what the law says that they cannot any unlawful person.
▶ 1:46:38But there are unintended consequences where it's going to disincentivize banks, lenders from uh approving those loans because they are afraid that it will violate the ECOA, the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, and that they will be liable. That's what the lenders are telling us. Mr. Pam, you want to respond to that? No, I I do.
▶ 1:47:03We know for a fact that there have been billions of dollars that were illegally that were that were fraudulently expended by the SBA. We know this. Where have they gone? We we're trying to find that out. But the fact is that the only thing that this does is make it a requirement to verify that these dollars are being given to people who are in our country legally that are American businesses. That is all it's doing is simply verifying that is not currently required.
▶ 1:47:30And the fact that the Biden administration didn't enforce it. Uh that's the other problem, wouldn't you say? We absolutely know that they didn't enforce it because they unless this figure is wrong that the Biden administration approved a $783,000 SBA loan application in June of 2024 that was 49% owned by illegal immigrants. That's kind of a fact, isn't it? That was uncovered under this current administration while they were reviewing. That's just during one UNC. Correct.
▶ 1:47:59Well, um, do illegals that come into the country, have they paid into our social security, our Medicaid? No, sir, they have not. They had paid anything in yet. Taken advantage of of a, uh, participation with the bank. And I will tell you the reason if under the Biden administration, uh, they just didn't enforce it. That's why they let as many illegals in this country as they did to create, in my opinion, a power base. And it just didn't work.
▶ 1:48:27And now that this is a uh this just solidifies what I guess Miss Belz is saying is not a problem, but all you're doing is verifying it. They have to fill out an application and SBA uh application process is lengthy anyway. And I think in 23 they u the bank board I was on, we we did it every every month.
▶ 1:48:50We we and it was an extensive process, but under the B administration, they were almost scared to enforce it because of all these equal rights and things that um you know that they were worried about having to be litigated and sued over. You want to respond any I I would say that what they did and and I heard this firsthand. I'm also I'm on the small business committee.
▶ 1:49:12I heard this firsthand from a number of different lenders that with under the Biden administration, they were making them check boxes for a number of different DEI programs that was forcing dollars away. So, if they want to talk about the added burden of what they did to our lenders to small businesses, it was aborant that was allowed to continue. This administration is putting an end to it. This is merely saying that for every dollar that has been given away to folks who are illegally in our country, it's a dollar that was not given to hardworking American small businesses.
▶ 1:49:42And what do you think this is doing for the price of housing and the price of commercial buildings that they take money that should go to legal Americans? Uh what is it doing for those? It's it's obviously extending the burden on on on our middle class, on our working families, and our small businesses. A lot of the illegals that uh we've encountered, they've got a document. They the Biden administration issued driver's license, issued fake social security numbers.
▶ 1:50:08So if they'll lie on that, if they'll lie with that, what else will they lie on? Mr. Feno, you want to answer any of Where is the evidence, sir? Where is the evidence? Show me the proof. You just can't come here and make up things up without presenting evidence.
▶ 1:50:30And the administrator for six months that has been in office has not come before the committee to answer questions and to to share with us what is her opinion on the different proposals. It doesn't work that way. It does not work that way. When you have I can see that it does not work. When you talk about the billions of dollars that have gone to ineligible small businesses, yes, you're right.
▶ 1:50:58It happened under the first Trump administration when we uh implemented the PPP and he loosen up the guard rails on the PPP. They're not being enforced under the Biden administration. Just like the Just like the borders were not just like the borders. You're totally wrong. I'm reclaiming my time. Just like the borders were never enforced. Open borders that derail this country. And the things that that this is just codified is is a common sense.
▶ 1:51:28She should be for it if what she's saying is true. You want to Well, the administrator is actually going to be in front of the small business committee in the next week and the administrator has already testified twice in front of the Senate. So, she absolutely has been responsive. Um, in addition, I would say that while while they're looking at one example, there are plenty of examples. The only thing this does if it if the administrator is correct and which it is true that this is part of law. All we're doing is saying it has to be verified. Are there penalties with it if they falsify records?
▶ 1:51:58I I'm sure there are. That's not part of this bill. Okay. Well, thank you for putting this up. This is uh it's amazing we have to argue even argue about this, but it is. U I yield back, Madam Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Norman. Miss Leisure, Fernandez, you're recognized. Thank you uh so very much for recognizing me, Madam Chair, and thank you for being here, chairwoman. And I love it when there's two chairwoman with a chairwoman and ranking member.
▶ 1:52:26Uh but I do think that it is important that we stay rooted in fact. Uh and the reality is there were no open borders during Biden. And in fact, Biden has uh deported more immigrants than Trump has although he has done horrible things like deporting uh children who have brain cancer. They have deported citizens. Uh they have acted in a manner that it is incredibly callous.
▶ 1:52:56But I wanted to give you some time ranking member uh to be able to answer some of the uh accusations that were made in a way that will allow you to do so without being interrupted. Uh ranking member of Alaska.
▶ 1:53:11Well, let me say um that the law, the small business requires and state clearly that an unlawful citizen person cannot access loans by the SBA, by the small business. That is clear. But here we have it.
▶ 1:53:36You know, the Republicans in the financial services committee and in the small business committee, they raised the issue of, you know, Democrats imposing requirements and all these regulation that are impacting and killing small businesses. But you are they are advocating for this in this bill. The this bill shows the hypocrisy of the Republican majority.
▶ 1:54:03The majority opposed both the CSPB section 1071 rule and the beneficial ownership requirements rule because it was honorist against small businesses. With section 1071 that information was voluntary and now under this legislation is a requirement. They have to comply. So it it just unbelievable.
▶ 1:54:31No oversight, no information shared with us on sanctuary cities. How many of these offices will be closing down? What is going to be the cost to SBA? 40% of the workforce are going to be eliminated, fire off, and they are taking on more responsibility like student loans. Since when? That is the mission of SBA.
▶ 1:55:04So, you know, I think that what we're finding today is what we find every time this rules committee meets and takes up legislation is time and again, Republicans are standing with the biggest corporations and the wealthiest Americans instead of with small businesses. And their actions continuously hurt mom and pop businesses.
▶ 1:55:26I need to tell you uh that when I go across my district and I've gone and met with small businesses and they are terrified of what they don't talk to me about immigrants as being the problem. The tariffs Yeah. are the problem. I have met with every store I go into whether it's I'm buying something for myself or I happen to be in one of our rural areas.
▶ 1:55:49Our stores and our small momand pop businesses are suffering because of the tariffs and the Republicans have refused to even take them up. They don't have the courage to exercise their constitutional duty to take up the tariffs. Uh and instead they do things like this which will cost SBA a lot of money in their it's it's sort of benchful.
▶ 1:56:14I mean there the Trump is Trump is sort of and Republicans allowing him to have a policy of vengeance. So they want to blame immigrants for all kinds of things. They want to blame immigrants for all kinds of things. And that's not the issue right now. The issue is what mom and pop businesses are doing.
▶ 1:56:35In fact, it's so bad that we had small businesses sue the Trump administration over those tariffs and they won the initial case, the initial determination. And what those small businesses in that case said are the same things. There's uncertainty. There's chaos. We don't know whether Trump is going to be a taco again or not. Right? Trump always chickens out.
▶ 1:57:03But when Trump is playing his game of chicken, our small businesses can't order their inventory. They don't know whether they should raise the prices. You know, it keeps hurting them. Uh do you want to respond to that issue of of what the tariffs are doing to our small businesses? Well, small businesses are hurting under this administration trade policies and that is the issue.
▶ 1:57:30They rather come here and talk about sanctuary cities, but they don't want to discuss the real issue. The Wall Street Jail now uh small business index found 58% of small businesses say the economy has gotten worse. 42 points worse than in January. 66% of small businesses believe tariffs are having a negative impact. 51% anticipate a recession.
▶ 1:57:59and a staggering 59% less economic uncertainty as their top challenge. So, but rather uh than focus on this issue that matter most to small businesses like tariffs, this administration is focused on hollowing out the agency, closing regional offices, imposing honorous requirements to small businesses and to lenders.
▶ 1:58:28impacting access to credit for small businesses and eliminating funding for 15 valuable counseling and training programs at at a time when it matters most for small businesses, right? And we keep hearing false statements like this whole idea that uh the bad billionaire bill they passed last time we were in this rules for two nights straight. What was it? What were we up?
▶ 1:58:56I mean, ranking, Madam Chair, you were up with the rest of us, right? I mean, it was like two nights where we didn't sleep. Uh, and we worked non-stop, but we kept hearing things that were not accurate, like the idea that that bad billionaires bill is not going to raise the deficit. When every every analysis, every economist says it will raise the deficits and we hear Republicans saying it's not going to raise the deficits.
▶ 1:59:23When we hear them trying to blame immigrants for Medicaid, saying 1.4 million, they do not receive Medicaid. Now, if certain states choose to provide that, that is up to the states. But they are not receiving federal Medicaid dollars and Republicans complete keep repeating those lies. They keep repeating lies over and over again without proof. And that's what you're demanding, aren't you?
▶ 1:59:50Ranking member of the show was the evidence, not just the statements. And we are not seeing any of that. But we keep seeing them siding with big corporations, but people like Musk. Musk even says that bad billionaires budget is a bad thing. Although he made a lot of money, maybe billions of dollars more that he's made since he's been associated with Trump.
▶ 2:00:14You know, the Trump organizations have made billions of dollars from these tariffs, doing these tariffs, right? So, let's start talking about what's really good for small businesses. And the problem isn't illegal immigrants because they are not getting those loans. The problem is the tariffs and the economic policies of President Trump. And with that, uh, is there unless there's anything else you want to add, ranking member of Velasquez?
▶ 2:00:43We we cannot continue to um implement policies with total disregard to the ability of members of Congress to have the information provided by the administration.
▶ 2:00:57So the disregard for oversight and request for information those are important issue for us to be able to do this in a responsible way and for that it would serve both Republicans and Democrats to have uh good information coming from the administration. So that should be a bipartisan uh request and something we could work on together. Don't you think Madam Chair? And with that, I will yield back.
▶ 2:01:26Thank you, Miss Ledger Fernandez. Mr. Griffith, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. If I could just set the record straight. I'm not sure exactly what gentle lady was saying when she said that we were saying things that weren't accurate. And I'm not telling you I know that it's accurate or inaccurate.
▶ 2:01:45All I know is that 1.4 4 million illegal aliens being on Medicaid, particularly Medicaid expansion, is a CBO, Congressional Budget Office number. I didn't make it up. The committee didn't make it up. That's a Congressional Budget Office. No, I'm not going to yield. I'm just saying the facts. It's a Congressional Budget Office number that was given to us as members of the Energy and Commerce Committee. That's where that came from. It's not something we made up. We didn't just pull that out of the air.
▶ 2:02:13Seems like today we're being accused just pulling stuff out of the air. I don't know what the number is. I make, Madam Chairman, I make no statement as to that. I have personal knowledge of the illegal aliens who may or may not be on Medicaid expansion. But the Congressional Budget Office said that by specifically saying they couldn't get it, we were going to take 1.4 million illegal immigrants off the ROS. So, you can't have it both ways.
▶ 2:02:40I would say, Madam Chair, the folks who want to say that we're taking these people off of Medicaid, particularly expansion, can't be saying that. At the same time, it's saying that they're not there or that we're making that number up. That number came from the Congressional Budget Office. Now, who listened to me over the years know that I don't put a lot of stock in Congressional Budget Office numbers, which is why I'm not personally endorsing the number. I'm just saying that's what they said.
▶ 2:03:10That's where the number came from. It's not something that Republicans made up. Um, and with that, Madam Chair, I I'm going to yield back. Thank you, Mr. Griffith. Uh, Mr. McGover. Well, first of all, let me thank both the witnesses for being here. I apologize that I was uh out of the committee room for a while. We had a leadership meeting. So, uh, let me just, um, having said that, let me just say I agree with every single word that Nas was just said.
▶ 2:03:40So, I want to associate myself with her. But in terms of the CBO issue, I I think you I I'll go back and I'll I'll double check what they said about um undocumented immigrants and um and healthcare. But if I'm not mistaken, they made a distinction between what is federally funded and what is state funded uh in terms of who is uh getting the healthcare. And there is a difference u especially when it comes to the stuff that we oversee.
▶ 2:04:08Uh but I will be happy to get the details and pass them on to the gentleman. Um I I yield to the gentle lady. So and I think that that is really important that you can't take a number that is in a CBO score that is about 1.4 4 million that states may be providing in their decision and then say that it is Medicaid and federally funded and I will send you
▶ 2:04:38uh madam madam chair I request to enter into the record an article by factcheck.org stating a false claim about illegal immigration and Medicaid. without objection. And in here it actually very clearly says that a state program is by definition not Medicaid.
▶ 2:05:03And that's the difference that when you refer to the fact that there are people and each state may make that determination, but that is not Medicaid. That is not federal funds because undocumented cannot utilize Medicaid. because we should stop using that number. Unless you want to say there are million who might be using state programs, but that's not what we fund. What we fund is Medicaid.
▶ 2:05:34And so over and over again, we see these kinds of numbers being used by uh Republicans. And in fact, one Republican senator when it was pointed out when she was talking about these 1.4 million when Senator Ernst did, you know, when somebody said, "Well, you know, if you kick all these people off of Medicaid and shouldn't, you know, that people are going to die because if you don't get health care, you can die." And her response was,
▶ 2:06:04"We're all going to die." I mean, I would think that we would have more empathy in this room than to say, "Well, it doesn't matter because we're all going to die. Let them die." That's how that is heard. It is heard as, "Let them eat cake." It is heard as if though the people on Medicaid do not deserve to have health care do not deserve to live. And I think that the people on Medicaid do deserve to live. They do deserve to have healthcare.
▶ 2:06:32They should not be brushed aside and say, "But we're all going to die." And I think that that is a key difference on how we look at the moral values of these issues when we face them. And thank you very much. I thank the general lady. Uh and I again thank our two witnesses for being here. And I will yield back my time. Thank you, Mr. McGovern. And I want to say Republicans are the party of life.
▶ 2:07:02and to accuse us of not wanting people to who deserve to be on Medicaid to be on Medicaid and deserve to live is deeply offensive to me. As Mr.
▶ 2:07:16U Griffith has said we're using a number given to us by CBO and um we do want people to live and and I'm again offended when people say that Republicans don't want people to live. We're the party that believes in in life from conception to natural death.
▶ 2:07:47Mr. Jack, you're recognized. Uh, thank you, Madam Chair, and I just want to start if I could with Miss Van. We we'll talk about the two uh your bill and and Mr. Finstead's bill. So, first and foremost, over 70% of Americans support President Trump's plans to ensure that we protect our country from the scourge, which is illegal immigration.
▶ 2:08:10And I just saw a survey uh earlier this week that over 70% of Californians believe that too, which you wouldn't necessarily uh expect. And I think it's because we all see that there is a drain on American resources and taxpayers. But I just want to affirm for the record, both of these bills, in my mind helped turn off the incentive structure that was around the previous administration that rewarded and incentivized illegal immigration. That's my perspective, but welcome thoughts from you, Miss Vanine, on that.
▶ 2:08:39No, I think you're absolutely right. Every dollar that goes to somebody who's in this country illegally is doing two things. One is incentivizing other people to come into our country illegally, and two is stealing it away from those who deserve it from from the reason why these programs were created. Um I I do want to clarify a couple of things that have been said today. We are not shutting down any offices. We are relocating offices.
▶ 2:09:00The resources will still be there to help these small businesses that need it, but we are relocating them to cities that actually enforce the law, that cities that actually care about the safety of their citizens. That is what we are doing. We're not shutting down offices. They're being relocated. When we were talking about earlier about small businesses and what they have heard over the years and how that the Republicans are not are not being responsive to the needs. Absolutely. I would say that last week we actually passed a bill that is very responsive to every single small business that has come in front of the small business committee that I've heard the last 5 years.
▶ 2:09:30way they wanted a bill that look that identified tax cuts that allowed them to invest in the future that allowed them to invest in the growth of their company. That is exactly what a bill that we just passed, the one big beautiful bill did that every single Democrat voted against. Well, thank you very much and I again I very excited about your legislation. Likewise, Mr. defense ads. And if I could, shifting to my fellow freshman uh classmate Rob Breznahan has a a great piece of legislation on which you testified.
▶ 2:09:57And I'm just curious if you could walk us through why it's important to ensure in this case, let's say, a future Democrat administration does not increase the number of SBLC's. So expanding the number of SPLC licenses to 16 is a decision that should be made by Congress, not by unelected bureaucrats.
▶ 2:10:16Congress must ensure that the SBA has the ability to be able to manage any unregulated entities, which they have not in the past, that seek an SPLC license before some future administration fully removes the cap and compromises the integrity of the SA program with unworthy new SPLC's, which is exactly what we saw during the last Well, I appreciate you testifying. I think you've distinguished yourself in your first appearance before the rules committee. And with that, Madam Chair, I yield back to you.
▶ 2:10:46Thank you very much, Mr. Scott. You're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I'll I'll try to be brief, but uh a couple things were said. One is that the indication was there that we as the federal government actually label the sanctuary cities, but sanctuary cities have chosen themselves not to comply with federal immigration law or to share immigration information with federal agencies. Is that correct? Yes. So, so they have chosen to defy the law.
▶ 2:11:17Not it's it's not Congress that's saying or or some federal agency that's label them as a sanctuary city. They've chosen themselves to become the sanctuary city. Correct. And there should be consequences for that. Um the other thing is I want to make it clear u when we talk about immigrants, if you are a legal immigrant in the United States of America, you still have eligibility. Correct. Correct. if you're if you're going to be here long term.
▶ 2:11:45So they they they break it down for people who are here um short term versus people who plan to spend the rest of their life and invest in these communities, right? But if you have a loan that you have to repay, that loan has duration and you're going to need to be here for a long period of time to repay the loan. And that's exactly why we're defining it because if you are here illegally, you risk the idea of being deported and therefore you will not be able to pay back that long-term loan.
▶ 2:12:10So, getting back to this that this was not a $10,000 loan that the SBA approved and this wasn't something where someone had a 10% interest in it. My understanding is this $783,000 and the illegal immigrant owned 49% of that company. Is that correct? How does somebody miss that? Unless they're just unless it's willful ignorance. This is what happens when we don't have them.
▶ 2:12:39um force the verification and that's what this bill is trying to address. I want to u just finish with this. I I went to the border just a couple of weeks ago, not not with a big trip, but uh I talked to the people that were working the border and um long-term employees of of US Border Patrol.
▶ 2:12:58And do you know that even if somebody had uh tattoos that that would indicate that they were part of a violent group that unless now I'm talking about someone who had tattoos that basically said I'm a part of this particular violent group that unless there was a a hit a criminal hit when they put them in the system that they were parrolled into this country even if they had tattoos that indicated that they were part of a violent
▶ 2:13:29organization. What's what happened over the last four years has done untold damage to this country. And I'm just glad to know and I got to see it with my own eyes. The border is secure right now. And it's going what little bit is happening at the border. I'm pretty sure President Trump's going to get a handle on the rest of it. I'm I'm thankful that the border is secure. With that, I yield. Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.
▶ 2:13:59Seeing no other persons to question uh our witnesses, you are excused. M madame chair. Yes. Can I enter into the record an article uh that I forgot? Certainly. Because when we were discussing sanctuary cities, reference were made about the fact of crime being rampant, raped and all that.
▶ 2:14:23Uh so I have this article from the from the third way the 21st century red state murder crisis. So I would like for that to be made part of the record without objection. Thank you.
▶ 2:14:38Thank you very Miss Mlen and Miss Bonamichi, would you please uh join us at the uh witness table?
▶ 2:15:08You guys almost coordinated this Thank you all very much for being here. Um, I know we know usually go in alphabetical order, but Miss Mlelen, you're listed first, so I'm going to go ahead. You want to defer to Miss Bonamichi? Okay, that's fine.
▶ 2:15:38Miss Bonamichi, you're recognized. Uh, thank you, Madam Chair and Rules Committee members. As as much as I'm tempted to weigh in on the prior bill, I am here with a refreshingly bipartisan amendment uh to the support act for uh patients and communities. Uh in 2018, Congress identified the need to expand access to re recovery housing in the support for patients in communities act.
▶ 2:16:02and the legislation established the recovery housing program pilot to support individuals in recovery on their path to self-sufficiency. Recovery housing is not new. It has origins that can be traced back to the mid 1800s. These models have proven time and time again to meet the various and evolving needs of people with substance use disorders. They can be a critical asset in supporting an individual on their recovery journal.
▶ 2:16:30Specifically, the recovery housing pilot program that passed in the support act allocated funding to 25 states in the District of Colombia to provide stable transitional housing for individuals in recovery from a substance use disorder. The funding covered a period of not more than two years or until the individual secured permanent housing. And again, that was passed with bipartisan support in 2018.
▶ 2:16:56But the program was limited to a handful of states that had higher than average opioid overdoses and unemployment rates based on data that was gathered between 2013 and 2017. Because of the success of this program, I've introduced bipartisan legislation, which is HR1231, the Start Housing Act, to expand the recovery housing program to all states, not just a limited number of states, and promote better coordination between service providers.
▶ 2:17:25This bipartisan amendment inserts the text of my bill to strengthen and expand the recovery housing program to all states. And again, the pilot was limited. The pilot is working. There isn't a reason why we shouldn't bring that nationally. Further, the Congressional Budget Office confirmed that uh this amendment has no effect on direct spending or revenue. So, I respectfully urge the committee to make my amendment in order so the benefits of the support acts recovery housing program can support people in recovery nationwide. Thank you.
▶ 2:17:54And I yield back. Thank you, Miss Bonamichi. Miss Mlullen, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, my amendment would prevent the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration from implementing any further um mass layoffs. And that is because while I fully support the support act, I am concerned that none of the work necessary to implement it can happen without the SAMA workforce.
▶ 2:18:22SAMA leads efforts to address our nation's mental health crisis, including focused initiatives to reduce the rates of suicide and drug overdose. But on March 7th, Secretary Kennedy announced that SAMA would essentially cease to exist as employees are fired or absorbed into a consolidated office.
▶ 2:18:41And without an agency dedicated to behavioral health, addressing suicide, overdose, and youth mental health issues, these issues are less likely to be prioritized. On April 1st, Secretary Kennedy fired nearly half of SAMA's remaining staff, including the director of SAMA's Center for Mental Health Services. He then fired the entire Office of Population Surveys. And this is the team that oversees the national survey on drug use and health.
▶ 2:19:12Our only national survey focused specifically on drug use and mental health. And it is unclear who, if anyone, is going to take on this crucial task of tracking drug use and mental health in our country. In recent years, we have made progress reducing overdose deaths in large part due to SAMA's programs addressing substance use. But overdose deaths remain the leading cause of death for younger adults.
▶ 2:19:38Underscoring the need to ensure that this program continues and recklessly firing staff without cause deals a devastating blow to our efforts to prevent overdose deaths in America. SAMA also administers grants that support the 988 National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which in its first year received 4 million calls, a 33% increase in people reaching out for help.
▶ 2:20:04Yet in February, a quarter of the 988 lifetime team lifeline team at SAMA was fired. And these are critical mental health programs. SAMA's pregnant and postpartum women's substance use disorder treatment program which funds parent parent child residential treatment and critical workforce training programs would be eliminated with about a 92% cut but substance abuse is a significant factor and one of the leading causes of death uh in the maternal mortality
▶ 2:20:34crisis in Virginia. Samson grants fund programs tackling substance use, mental illness, grief, trauma, and challenges faced by individuals. And yet, this funding is at risk. And it's important to understand that these these workforce cuts, these firings, these layoffs don't happen in a vacuum.
▶ 2:20:54The bill that would that this committee that this house just passed will cut Medicaid and will put at risk a lot of substance abuse programs that Medicaid funds particularly in our rural areas. In addition, the president has proposed um slashing Samson's funding by almost another third, eliminating another critical program, another 30 critical programs that focus specifically on substance abuse.
▶ 2:21:23So when you think of everything in a totality, I support the support act. I think the support act is critically important to addressing substance abuse and the maternal mortality crisis and the suicide crisis and the gun violence crisis because many uh many gun violence incidents are a direct result of either mental health issues, suicide or um or mental health issues or suicide or drug drug addiction.
▶ 2:21:52And yet, if we don't have the workforce to implement the support act, what are we doing? We're wasting our time. And we are telling the American people on the one hand, we're solving a problem when we're actually tying our hands behind our back to make sure the problem actually gets solved. And so with that, I yield back. Uh, thank you very much, Miss Mlen. Miss Fishbach, do you have any questions? Mr. McGovern. Uh, no, I want to thank you both for your testimony.
▶ 2:22:22I think they're both important amendments and I we I we certainly will um let's hope they're made in order, but if not, we will we will certainly offer them um and have a vote on them in the committee here. But uh Madam Chair, I I want to also request unanimous consent to insert into the record. Davis testimony in support of his amendment number 37 to HR 2483 which reauthorizes through 2030 the support act section 7134 grants for trauma-informed services in educational settings. Without objection.
▶ 2:22:51And I'd like to request to insert uh unanimous consent to assert to the record Rep. Selena's testimony in support of her amendments number 1722 23 26 to HR 2483. Without objection. And I'd like to ask unanimous consent to insert into the record Rep. Captor's testimony in support of her amendment number 16 to HR2483, which ensures funds from opiate related settlements are used to address the opiate crisis that are not being used for unrelated projects.
▶ 2:23:20Without objection again, I thank you both for your patience and for being here and I support your amendments. I yield back. Mr. Griffith, you're recognized. Thank you, Madam Chair. Respect both of these ladies very much. appreciate you all being here to talk about your amendments and I yield back. Thank you. Miss Kellen, you're recognized. Thank you. I dissociate myself with uh Mr. McGovern's remarks and thank you for being here. Mr. Norman, you're recognized.
▶ 2:23:51Miss Leisure Fernandez, you're Thank you very much, Madam Chair. These are precisely the kinds of amendments where we are actually supporting bipartisan efforts, right? Is it am I correct? Uh uh that that in essence uh that the what you're talking about what you're each talking about has had wide bipartisan support in the past. Is that correct? By my underlying bill and the amendment both have bipartisan support. Yeah.
▶ 2:24:21While I don't have any co-sponsors for my amendment, I will say that there is broad bipartisan support for making sure that we are addressing substance abuse. And I don't know how we're going to do that if we don't have the workforce to actually implement the bill. Right. So, and we heard tonight, I think, a lot of bipartisan support for for mental health and addiction and treating mental health as a healthc care crisis. Um, but I agree with you and we had that discussion earlier.
▶ 2:24:47You cannot do it without people and you cannot fire the heads of these uh offices that deal with this and say you support this. So uh I appreciate um your testimony and amendments and it would be great if we could debate them on the floor and see what uh uh and and see if we could actually let the members vote on them. Let's see what happens. Thank you very much. Thank you, Miss Leer Fernandez. Mr. Jack, you're recognized.
▶ 2:25:17Uh, I have no questions, but I will say, Miss Bonomichi, in a previous life, I've closely followed your first election, the special election back in 2012. So, it's an honor to serve with you as a freshman here today and appreciate your testimony. With that, I will yield back. Thank you for the kind words. Thank you. Um, seeing no further persons to ask questions, I thank the witnesses again for being here.
▶ 2:25:45Um, look, let me say this exactly the right way. Anyone else seeking to testify on HR 2483, 2966, HR 2931 or HR 2987. Seeing none, this closes the hearing portion of the meeting and our colleagues are freely.
▶ 2:26:05Thank you very The chair will be in receipt
▶ 2:26:36of a motion from the gentleoman from Miss from Minnesota, Mrs. Fishbach. Madame Chair, I move the committee grant HR 2483, the Support for Patients and Communities Reauthorization Act of 2025, a structured rule. The rule waves all points of order against consideration of the bill. The rule provides one hour of general debate equally divided and controlled by the chair and ranking minority member of the committee on energy and commerce or their respective design.
▶ 2:27:06The rule provides that in lie of the amendment in the nature of a substitute recommended by the committee on energy and commerce now printed in the bill an amendment in the nature of a substitute consisting of the text of the rules committee print uh 119-4 shall be considered as adopted and the bill as amended shall be considered as read. The rule waves all points of order against provisions in the bill as amended. The rule makes an order all th only those amendments printed in part A of the rules committee report.
▶ 2:27:35Each amendment may be offered only in the order printed in the report, may be offered only by a member designated in the report, and shall be considered as read, shall be de debatable for the time specified in the report equally and divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent. Shall not be consider, excuse me, shall not be subject to an amendment and shall be shall not be subject to a demand for division of the question.
▶ 2:28:01The rule waves all points of orders against the amendments printed in part A of the rules committee report. The rule provides one motion to recommit. The rule further provides for consideration of HR 2931, the Save SBA from sanctuary cities act of 2025 under a closed rule. The rule waves all points of order against consideration of the bill.
▶ 2:28:22The rule provides that the amendments in the nature of substitute recommended by the committee on small business now printed in the bill modified by the amendment printed in part B of the rules committee report shall be considered as adopted and the bill as amended shall be considered as read. The rule waves all points of order against the provisions in the bill as amended.
▶ 2:28:42The rule provides one hour of general debate equally divided and controlled by the chair and ranking minority member of the committee on small business and their respective design or their respective designs. The rule provides for one motion to recommit. The rule further provides for consideration of HR uh 2966 the American entrepreneurs first act of 2025 under a closed rule. The rule waves all points of order against consideration of the bill.
▶ 2:29:08The rule provides that the amendment in the nature of a substitute recommended by the committee on small business now printed in the bill shall be considered as adopted and the bill as amended shall be considered as read. The rule waves all points of order against the provisions in the bill as amended. The rule provides one hour of general debate equally divided and controlled by the chair and ranking minority member of the committee on small business or their respective design. The rule provides for one motion to recommit.
▶ 2:29:34The rule further provides for consideration of HR 2987, the cease act of 2025 under a closed rule. The rule waves all points of order against the consideration of the bill. The rule provides that the amendment in the nature of a substitute recommended by the committee on small business now printed in the bill shall be considered as adopted and the bill as amended shall be considered as read. The rule waves all points of order against provisions in the bill as amended.
▶ 2:30:00The rule provides one hour of general debate, equally divided and controlled by the chair and ranking minority member of the committee on small business or their respective designates. Finally, the rule provides one motion to recommmit. I yield back. Thank you very much, Miss Fishbach. You've now heard the motion. Is there any discussion or amendment to the rule? Yes, madam chair. Mr. McGovern, you're recognized. I have an amendment to the rule.
▶ 2:30:26I move the committee make an order number four offered by Representative Tonko which halts all efforts for HHS or DOE to reorganize the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration until the date on which a federal law is enacted that specifically authorizes such a reorganization. And Madam Chair, you know, the American people do not support dismantling the agency in charge of combating the overdose crisis in this country and firing hundreds of its workers.
▶ 2:30:52And yet, President Trump has already fired hundreds of these essential employees without congressional approval. And now he wants to eliminate SAMA altogether. If Republicans care about beating beating the opiate crisis, they should support my motion to ensure that the Trump administration does not eliminate this vital agency without a vote in Congress, without this body doing its job. I urge a yes vote on my amendment, and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. McGovern.
▶ 2:31:19Any further discussion on the Hearing none, the questions on the amendment. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Those opposed say no. In the opinion chair, the nos have it. The amendment is not. As for a roll call, Madam Chair, Mr. McGovern, request a roll call. The clerk will call the role. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Mr. Norman, no. Mr. Norman, no. Mr. Roy, no. Mr. Roy, no. Mrs. Hchin, Mrs. Houchin, no. Mr.
▶ 2:31:48Langworthy, no. Mr. Langworthy, no. Mr. Scott. No. Mr. Scott, no. Mr. Griffith, no. Mr. Griffith, no. Mr. Jack, no. Mr. Jack, no. Mr. McGovern, I Mr. McGovern, I Miss Scan, hi. Miss Scan, I Mr. Nagus, Miss Ledger Fernandez. Hi. M. Ledger Fernandez, I Madam Chair, no. Madam Chair, no. Clerk will report the total. Three, nine. The amend and the nos have it. The amendment is not agreed to. Madam Chair, I have another amendment to the rule.
▶ 2:32:17I move the committee make an order amendment number 20 offered by Okasiocortez which requires the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services to release funds for the mental health and substance use block grants. Madam Chair, in early uh May, President Trump canceled more than $1 billion in funding for state and local health departments to combat the mental health and substance uh use crisis.
▶ 2:32:44The Trump administration argues that this funding was just for COVID, but the law itself is clear that these funds are to address mental health and substance abuse issues. This is just yet another example of how damaging Trump's slash and burn approach has been. This move hurt health departments in red and blue states alike, and this amendment would release funding that has been already approved by Congress so that it can be put to good use in communities across the country. I urge a yes vote on my amendment, and I yield back. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 2:33:14McGovern. Any further discussion on the amendment? Hearing none, the questions on the amendment. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair and the notice have it the amendments. Ask for a roll call. Mr. McGovern request a roll call. The clerk will call the role. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Mr. Norman, Mr. Norman, no. Mr. Roy, Mr. Roy, no. Mrs. Hen, Mrs. How? No. Mr. Langworthy. Mr. Langworthy.
▶ 2:33:44No. Mr. Scott. No. Mr. Scott. No. Mr. Griffith. No. Mr. Griffith. No. Mr. Jack. No. Mr. Jack. No. Mr. McGovern. Hi. Mr. McGovern. I. Miss. Gallon. Hi. Miss Gallon. I. Mr. Noose. M. Ledger Fernandez. Hi. Mr. Ledger Fernandez. I. Madam Chair. No. Madam Chair. No. The clerk will report the total three A's. Nine A. The uh nos have it. The amendment is not agreed to. Uh further discussion. Miss Ganley, are you recognizing? Are you done?
▶ 2:34:14Yeah, I have an amendment. Thank you, Madam Chair. I have an amendment to the rule. I move the committee make an order amendment number seven offered by Representative Mlullen, which prevents federal funds from being used for mass layoffs of SAMA employees under reduction in force or similar processes. The Trump administration has already already fired hundreds of workers from SAMA in violation of their rights and without approval from Congress.
▶ 2:34:39I know from firsthand conversations with service providers in my district how important SAMA's expertise is and the gutting of that agency's expertise will irreparably damage the health and welfare of the American people. We sadly have a White House that doesn't care about whether the federal government can fulfill its mission to combat the opioid crisis by treating substance use disorder. Instead, the only goal seems to be how many people can be fired, how quickly can it be done, and damn the consequences.
▶ 2:35:08Supporting my motion would allow the House to vote on retaining federal employees with expertise, important expertise in substance use and mental health programs. I urge a yes vote on my amendment and yield back. Thank you, Miss Scandlin. Um, is there any further discussion on the amendment? Hearing none, the questions on the amendment. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Those opposed say no. No. In the opinion of chair, the nos have it.
▶ 2:35:37I'd ask for a roll call vote. Miss Scandlin asked for a roll call vote. The clerk will call the role. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Mr. Norman, Mr. Norman, no. Mr. Roy, no. Mr. Roy, no. Mrs. Houchin, no. Mrs. Hchen, no. Mr. Langworthy, Mr. Langworthy, no. Mr. Scott, no. Mr. Scott, no. Mr. Griffith, no. Mr. Griffith, no. Mr. Jack, no. Mr. Jack, no. Mr. McGovern, hi. Mr. McGovern, I Miss Scan, I. Mr. Scan, I Mr. Negus. Miss Ledger Fernandez. Hi. Sledge Fernandez I.
▶ 2:36:07Madam Chair, no. Madam Chair, no. Clerk will report the total three A's, nine A's. The amendment is not and the nose have it. The amendment is not agreed to. Uh are there is there further discussion? Okay. Miss Leger Fernandez recognized. Madam Chair, I have an amendment to the rule.
▶ 2:36:29I move the committee add a new section to the rule providing for immediate consideration of HJ resolution 91 relating to a national emergency by the president on April 2nd, 202025 under a closed rule debatable for one hour equally divided between the chair and ranking member of the committee on foreign affairs. This joint resolution would allow discussion, debate, and a vote on whether to terminate the 10% tariffs imposed by the president.
▶ 2:36:58Madam Chair, we talked about uh what small businesses are caring about and we also need to remember that we were sent here to do a job and it is my job to remind us about that job week after week and that is to exercise our duties under the Constitution regarding tariffs and those tariffs are hurting our small businesses.
▶ 2:37:23And in fact, recently, last week, a court with jurisdiction, the United States Trade Court, ruled that Trump had exceeded his authority in imposing the tariffs and ordered an immediate block on them. But it's really Congress's job. We should not be relying on the courts.
▶ 2:37:42We should be exercising our own obligation and our own duty to our constituents to have these debates to vote on them, to have the courage of our convictions to say whether they should continue or not. So, Madame Chair, I urge a yes vote uh on my resolution and I yield back. Is there any further discussion on the amendment? Miss Kalin, you're recognized.
▶ 2:38:12Thank you, Madam Chair. I I do think this is particularly timely um since not one but two courts last week ruled that the fake um emergency declaration was not could not authorize these tariffs. So, I think it's imperative that Congress takes it up and we can't just suspend time until September um to avoid the political fallout that might happen if our Republican colleagues were to oppose the White House on this. So I would wholeheartedly support this amendment.
▶ 2:38:42Thank you, Miss Gallen. Any further debate or discussion? Hearing none, the questions on the amendment. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. All those opposed say no. No. Any opinion of chair? The nose have it. The amendments not agreed to. Miss Leger Fernandez request a recorded vote. The clerk will call the role. Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. Mr. Norman, no. Mr. Norman, no. Mr. Roy, no. Mr. Roy, no. Mrs.
▶ 2:39:11Hchin, Mrs. Hchin, no. Mr. Langworthy, no. Mr. Langworthy, no. Mr. Scott, no. Mr. Scott, no. Mr. Griffith, no. Mr. Griffith, no. Mr. Jack, no. Mr. Jack, no. Mr. McGovern, hi. Mr. McGovern, I miss Gallen. Hi. Mr. Scallan, I Mr. Negus. Miss Ledger Fernandez. Hi. M. Ledger Fernandez. I Madam Chair, no. Madam Chair, no. The clerk will report the total. Three A's, nine A's. The nos have it. The amendment is not agreed to.
▶ 2:39:41There any other amendment or discussion? Hearing no further discussion, the question is on the motion from the gentlewoman from Minnesota. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Those opposed say no. In the opinion, chair, the eyes have it. The motion is agreed to. Mr. McGovern request a roll call vote. The clerk will call the role. Mrs. Fishbach, yes. Miss Fishbach, I. Mr. Norman, yes.
▶ 2:40:11Mr. Norman, I Mr. Roy, I. Mr. Roy, I Mrs. Houchin. Mrs. Hchen. I Mr. Langworthy. Hi. Mr. Langworthy. I Mr. Scott. Hi. Mr. Scott. I Mr. Griffith. Hi. Mr. Griffith. I Mr. Jack. I. Mr. Jack. I Mr. McGovern. No. Mr. McGovern. No. Miss Scallan. Miss Gallon. No. Mr. Noose. Miss. Ledger. Fernandez. No. M Ledger Fernandez. No. Madam Chair, I. Madam Chair, I The clerk will report the total. Nine. Yay.
▶ 2:40:41Three nays. Um the eyes have it. The motion is to report is agreed to accordingly. The gentleoman from Minnesota, Miss Fishbach, will be managing the rule for the majority. Mr. McGovern will manage for the minority. Without objection, the committee is