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▶ 0:21:47all right good afternoon everyone the subcommittee on cyber security information technology and government Innovation will now come to order and welcome a good afternoon without objection the chair May declare a recess at any time I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement good afternoon late last year the white coat waste project exposed more than $10 million in taxpayer funds that were spent creating transgender mice rats and
▶ 0:22:17monkeys these Dei grants funded painful and deadly transgender experiments that forc lab animals to undergo invasive surgeries and hormone therapies at universities across the country for example the Biden Harris Administration spent 2.5 million taxpayer dollars 2.5 million taxpayer dollars to study the fertility of mice let that sink in we spent over $2 million sending
▶ 0:22:48the fertility of transgender mice $1.1 million was spent to find out if female rats receiving testosterone therapies to mimic transgender men were more likely to overdose on a party drug commonly used in the lgbtq community to induce drug fueled what's called quote chem sex I asked my staff what what was Chim sex and the chemical and I guess it's something called GHB which is a date rape drug um and also a drug that's used recreationally so we spent over a million
▶ 0:23:18dollars uh to find out if female rats receiving testosterone therapy uh were more likely to overdose on a date rape drug like that's what your taxpayer dollars were being spent on federal funds were also used to forcibly transition male monkeys to see if hormone therapy made them more susceptible to HIV now I didn't I didn't know this until recently but monkeys uh cannot be infected
▶ 0:23:49with HIV yet this ferally funded experiment forced them to take hormone altering drugs to study a virus they cannot have the Biden Harris Administration was so eager to propagate their radical gender ideology across all facets of American society that they were surgically mutating animal genitals like taxpayer money went to that so my question is were they castrating mice castrating monkeys were they getting double momies
▶ 0:24:19uh the language that they used in many of these experiments were quote gender affirming care which I learned about three years ago what that meant I thought that was maybe just some hormones or something very you know something like that but apparently gender affirming care is actually surgical mutilation of genitals and apparently it's not just humans they're doing it too we were doing it with taxpayer dollars to animals it's well known uh that because of the differences between animal and human biology animal testing frequently does not produce
▶ 0:24:50results relevant for humans in fact 90% of Novel drugs that are successful in animal tests fail in human clinical trials today's scientific questions are so complex that we have well surpass a time where it is useful or appropriate to rely on inhumane animal experiments to answer them recently developed technological tools can more accurately model human biology and identify solutions that are more useful for human patients but it is often the federal bureaucracy that prevents these new technologies from being used
▶ 0:25:20instead of adequately investing in these Innovative Alternatives the federal government has continued to funnel taxpayer dollars towards cruel animal experiments today most of the 27 NIH institutes and centers conduct or support animal testing as does the Food and Drug Administration the use Department of Agriculture the Department of Veterans Affairs the Department of Defense and countless other agencies we have some beagle puppies here with us today uh beagle puppies have uh gone through some
▶ 0:25:51of the worst medical experiments I mean drugging them with cocaine uh having uh eat at them and their bodies so much until they die drugging them until they die uh these are God's creatures and they're beautiful and you can see them sitting in the front row today so we thank uh the folks who are here and brought these beautiful uh beagle puppies here today um in fact the US government spends an excess of $0 billion a year conducting experiments on animals the white coat waste
▶ 0:26:21project found in 20121 that the NIH the National Institute of allergy and infectious diseases a component of NIH at the time ran by Dr fouchi spent $1.68 million for speeding toxic drugs to beagle puppies between six and eight months old before dissecting and killing them the conversation we're having today is important in 2022 due to public criticism lobbied against fouchy niad by me and other members of Congress another $1.8 million experiment
▶ 0:26:51to abuse beagle puppies and various drug tests was cancelled so I want to thank the work of white coat waist and everyone in the room today others who've been on the Forefront of this fight to end this sick and cruel and barbaric testing of animals uh today um thanks to one of our witness Justin Goodman of white coat waist we have in the audience I already know the beagles are here um the beagles are a reminder of the real cost of animal experimentation so I'm looking forward to this conversation this afternoon regarding wasteful government spending on animal cruelty
▶ 0:27:22and um I also want to say before I I yield over to the ranking member for her in statement that this is a nonpartisan issue ironically on oversight while we might fight a lot in public um we are actually very nonpartisan here and some of the most nonpartisan work in Congress comes right through this committee so I want to thank the ranking member look forward to working with you and I yield to you for five minutes for your opening statement thank you and good afternoon to our three Witnesses thanks for being here um chairwoman mace I appreciate uh working
▶ 0:27:53with you last week to introduce a bipartisan Bill to strengthen Federal contractor cyber security I was glad our teams were able to connect early into this new Congress and on a personal note my team found your staff to be very responsive and helpful likewise as the ranking member of this subcommittee I look forward to continuing to work with you to modernize and secure Federal it systems from potential cyber attacks uh bipartisan Solutions like this are critical to protecting our federal system for from cyber thre
▶ 0:28:23threats I look forward to finding more common ground and delivering results for the the American people I'm looking forward to having a productive discussion today about the scientific Innovations and the need for additional oversight of alternatives to animal testing each year millions of animals including dogs cats and monkeys are used worldwide for research and I think it's safe to assume that everyone here in this room would like to see that number reduced we are living in a moment where there
▶ 0:28:53have been extraordinary advancements in medical research utilizing groundbreaking Tech technology like artificial intelligence 3D bioprinting and Robotics that allows us to reduce our Reliance on animal testing I'm especially proud that much of this Innovation is happening in my district Ohio's 11 home to world-class research universities and medical institutions not only does this offer the chance to save animals from suffering these methods can actually lead to better
▶ 0:29:24and more accurate results from a scientific perspective one of the main issues with animal testing is that these trials often fail to produce results relevant to humans in fact 90% of new drugs that are shown to work in animal models fail in human trials Dr lock one of the witnesses here today is going to explain this phenomenon and he said it and I'll quote that animal biology is just too different from human biology
▶ 0:29:54because of this a great deal of funding and time is wasted on experience experiments that ultimately do not translate to human trials by modernizing our research methods to avoid the use of animal subjects we can also save precious taxpayer dollars thankfully there are viable Alternatives that are more ethical accurate and efficient ways to study human biology and disease we now have the technology to effectively replicate organs and Labs allowing us to better see
▶ 0:30:24how the human body will respond to drugs and treatments we have have machine learning systems that can analyze large sets of Health Data to develop predictable models of patient response we have the capabilities of 3D printing tissue and muscle test muscle to test Cosmetics chemicals and pharmaceuticals in a highly realistic way just these few examples highlight the amazing work that has already been done and the important need for continued investment in
▶ 0:30:54the medical field at the time we must Institute strong oversight of the animal testing that is still occurring to ensure that our federal dollars are being used ethically and transparently and that harm to animals is minimized I believe it is our moral responsibility to advocate for animals who cannot speak for themselves last Congress I was proud to co-sponsor the Humane cosmetic act which addresses the use of animal testing in the Cosmetic industry
▶ 0:31:24this Bill had massive bipartisan support demonstrating the progress we can make in this area I look forward to hearing more from our Witnesses on these important issues and I look forward to hearing to Future hearings in the months to come on important topics of cyber security artificial intelligence and government Innovation thank you great job um I'm pleased to introduce our Witnesses for today's hearing our first witness is Mr Justin Goodman senior vice president advocacy and public policy at the white coat waste project
▶ 0:31:55it's also Mr Goodman's birthday today and so I'd like to wish you a happy happy birthday and thank you for being here today our second witness is Dr Paul lock professor of the Department of Environmental Health and Engineering at the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health our third witness is Miss El Elizabeth Baker director of research policy at the Physicians committee for responsible medicine welcome everyone we're pleased to have you this afternoon pursuant to committee rule 9g the witnesses if you'll please stand and raise your right
▶ 0:32:25hand do you solemnly swear to affirm or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you get let the record show that the witnesses all answered in the affirmative we appreciate you for being here today and look forward to your testimony you may be seated let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes as a reminder please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on when you speak and the members can hear you when you begin
▶ 0:32:55to speak the light in front of you will turn green after 4 minutes the light will turn yellow and when the red light comes on your five minutes is up and we would ask that you please uh wrap it up I would like to recognize Mr Goodman uh to please begin your opening statement thank you chairwoman Mace ranking member Brown and distinguished members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to testify today as the chairwoman mentioned it's my birthday
▶ 0:33:26and this is the greatest gift I could Poss asked for my name is Justin Goodman and I'm the senior vice president of advocacy and public policy at the nonprofit nonpartisan government Watchdog white coat waste project white coat waste has one mission to stop taxpayers from being forced to pay for cruel wasteful inefficient and dangerous animal experiments in labs around the world lab survivors Nelly Beasley and Oliver sitting behind me are three of the many reasons why many people don't realize that the US government is not only the single largest fun of animal testing
▶ 0:33:56in the country but the world Uncle Sam outspends the private sector on animal testing 2 to one this isn't something to be proud of over 20 years ago the NIH budget doubled and animal testing skyrocketed but overall people aren't healthier or living longer it is estimated that over $20 billion a year of taxpayers money is still wasted annually on ineffective and inhumane tests on tens of millions of puppies kittens and other animals am I being flippant when I use the word waste absolutely not the NIH itself
▶ 0:34:26has said quote animal models fail to mimic disease or predict how drugs will work in humans resulting in much wasted time and money end quote yet agencies continue to dump billions of tax dollars into animal tests despite the horrible return on investment experiments we've uncovered range from The Savage to the stupid injecting puppies with cocaine staging hamster fight clubs putting dead turtles on treadmills one of the reasons this problem has gotten so out of control is a stunning lack of innovation transparency and accountability agencies
▶ 0:34:56do not report or even track in some cases how much money is being spent how many animals are used what's being done to them where and what taxpayers are getting out of it we file hundreds of foyer requests every year to glean just basic information when we can find out how tax dollars are being spent it becomes apparent why federal agencies fight against disclosing details for example Senator ran Paul's December 2024 Fest ofis report highlighted cruel was cruel taxpayer funded cat experiments exposed by my organization
▶ 0:35:27in one $1 million DARPA Grant cats have marbles shoved up their rectums in electroshock to make them defecate in constipation experiments we've also recently identified over $240 million in NIH grants for transgender animal experiments including $26 million in active funding some of these tests as the chairwoman mentioned examine the effects of party drugs on animals in injected with testosterone and how hormones used for human gender transitions impact the size and shape of animals
▶ 0:35:57genitals how does this translate to helping the average American shockingly 9 95% of this funding came from Dr fouchi nyad speaking of Dr fouchi our group is perhaps best known for exposing his and usaid's funding for Dangerous gain of function animal experiments at the Wuhan lab we also uncovered his support for cruel beagle tests around the world taxpayer funded animal tests may have caused covid unfortunately the government hasn't learned its lesson from what happened in Wuhan
▶ 0:36:28today there are still 26 animal labs in China including Labs controlled by the Chinese Communist party and tied to the military approved to receive ni funding this isn't just a misuse of taxpayer dollars but presents a national security threat white coat W recently obtained a contract funded by the NIH and DOD that's paying for 300 beagles a week to be restrained and injected with or force-fed experimental drugs in a Chinese lab the reason they chose beagles like Nelly Oliver and Beasley the contract states and quote
▶ 0:36:58beagle dogs are docile cute and easy to domesticate so it has been the best choice end quote not because it's effective but because it's easy this issue extends Beyond China 344 animal labs in 52 foreign countries are appr approved currently to receive NIH funding GA audits prompted by white coat waste have found that NIH ship billions to foreign animal LS with essentially no oversight that the NIH has never visited a foreign animal lab in over 40 years of overseeing research and that some foreign
▶ 0:37:28spending isn't even tracked this is how some spending in Wuhan went undisclosed and no surprised Dr Fouch division of NIH is responsible for 95% of the foreign aid continuing to send tax dollars to an authoritarian adversaries animal Labs as a recipe for disaster with chairwoman M's leadership we've been able to Halt plans for wasteful and cruel testing on dogs and cats and other fouchy funded Labs these tests have never should have been approved in the first place and were only deemed unnecessary after we expose them
▶ 0:37:58our campaigns and legislative work with the chairwoman ref's bobert conell Luna and many others exposed and shuttered waste like the government's largest cat lab that was feeding kittens kitten meat from Chinese wet markets yes that's true that was a cannibalism experiment eliminating VA testing on dogs and cats and ending nicotine tests on monkeys at the FDA but there's much more work to be done taxpayers shouldn't be forced to pay billions of dollars every year for outdated cruel and potentially dangerous animal experiments especially when most people oppose them where excited to work with you
▶ 0:38:28Doge the administration and others to continue cutting wasteful spending on animal experiments thank you for the opportunity to testify today on my birthday I look forward to your questions thank you I recognize Dr lock to please begin your opening statement chairwoman mace ranking member Brown and members of the committee and subcommittee thank you for inviting me to offer comments at today's hearing my name is Paul lock I'm a professor in the department of environmental health and Engineering at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of public health I'm an
▶ 0:38:58attorney and an environmental health scientist and a substantial portion of my work has concentrated on the uses of non-animal methodologies in research and Regulatory decision-making with an emphasis on the promise that these methods have for both reducing animal use and improving evidence-based decision-making I want to State for the record that the opinions here that I offer are my own and they do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of the Johns Hopkins University or the Johns Hopkins Health today I want to cover
▶ 0:39:29three major points first um the scientific questions facing us increasingly call into question our Reliance on animal models and demand that we move forward with more human Centric science second federal agencies must play a leadership role in this transition to these new human Centric models and third the development and deployment of these models represent Innovation and places where us businesses and scientists are and must continue to be at The Cutting Edge Let's Start start with the discussion about scientific
▶ 0:39:59methods and needs the complex scientific challenges that we now face require that we move away from traditional animal models and embrace new technologies that do not involve animals but instead incorporate human biology these Technologies include small engineered systems such as organs on a chip and microphysiological systems or three-dimensional groups of cells such as organoids that mimic many of the important functions of human organs I would also include AI in this group now while there's considerable enthusiasm around
▶ 0:40:29the promise of these new methodologies unless federal agencies and departments support their development and recognize their promise they will never be able to reach their potential we're not going to be able to replace animals in biomedical research with the meager Investments That federal agencies are now making EPA FDA and NIH all have important roles to play in unlocking the potential that these technologies have for Designing better drugs protecting the environment and improving health based on our research there are currently
▶ 0:40:59major gra gaps in the Frameworks needed to support new methodologies and it's imperative that the federal government step forward the federal approach has been passive and reactive what we need is for federal agencies and departments to lead efforts to development Implement and use these methods and my written testimony goes into greater information about what federal agencies can be doing and I hope we'll have some questions on that as well finally the US must continue to lead the way in these Technologies so that we are setting the global standards
▶ 0:41:29in these fields rather than following other nations Regulatory Agencies worldwide look to us for leadership and if the US leads in Alternatives methods development and validation our standards will shape International regulations assist in the creation of us high-tech jobs and strengthen our National Economic growth so to summarize scientific advancements have created multiple opportunities for us to develop and deploy more human Centric techniques and toxicology and biomedical research and transition
▶ 0:42:00away from animals and biomedic research champing these n non-animal models is a winwin situation because we can reduce the number of animals used as well as produced data that is more relevant to human health federal agencies and departments must play a central role and they have already begun to do so however to realize the full potential that this transition holds our agencies and departments must do more including dedicating additional resources and leading and efforts to validate these Innovative new technologies
▶ 0:42:30we cannot be world leaders given the meager resources that are now available these markets are expanding rapidly and several American companies are well positioned for success in this market space once the regulatory environment and framework is open for them in closing I urge the subcommittee to work with federal agencies to further develop the criteria for validation and acceptance of these new technologies Within each department and in a coordinated way across multiple
▶ 0:43:00agencies as well as dedicate additional resources to them doing so will allow us to reduce the number of animals in research better informed decision-making and Advance American entrepreneurial science thank you very much thank you Dr lock I now recognize Miss Baker to please begin your opening statement chair mace and ranking member Brown and members of the subc commmittee thank you so much for the opportunity to testify today my name is Elizabeth Baker at the Physicians committee for responsible medicine
▶ 0:43:31I work with a team of scientists Physicians lawyers and other professionals to move medical research product testing and Advanced Medical Training away from using animals I appreciate the subcommittee's attention to this critical subject ending federally funded animal experiments is long overdue for Generations tax dollars have paid scientists to conduct acts that would shock the conscience of most am Americans dogs cats monkeys rabbits pigs and other animals
▶ 0:44:01are used in experiments that are painful stressful and often lethal for the animals that are subjected to them increasingly it is recognized across research and testing sectors that animals are not good surrogates for humans over 85% of Americans that were recently pulled agreed that animal-based research should be phased out both Congress and the administration must take action to ensure that government funding and requests for animal experiments are stopped and that instead
▶ 0:44:31a portion of that funding is reinvested into more effective human-based approaches our first recommendation is to end Federal support for wasteful and ineffective animal research animal research does not translate to humans because there are insurmountable species differences in our anatomy physiology lifespan disease characteristics and more it's known that for new drugs nine out of 10 are are going to fail in humans after they appeared successful in animals and paying for
▶ 0:45:02those failures is partially why drugs can take so long over a decade to develop and cost so much to develop over a billion dollars worse relying on animal data is partially why many human diseases have no treatments and even fewer have cures despite this knowledge the federal government continues to promote animal research the National Institutes of Health funds seven National Primate Research centers that house breed and experiment on non-human primates with little regard to actual
▶ 0:45:32human translation while there are countless examples of cruel research consider this since 1991 the NIH has given $15 million to a single heart failure project where dogs are subjected to multiple major surgeries they have devices that are stabbed into their hearts and then they're forced to run on treadmills until they die or that device malfunctions despite 30 4 years of this work and hundreds of dead dogs there's been no benefit to patients
▶ 0:46:02agencies across the federal government continue to fund animal experiments even when they object using human-based approaches like animal experiments for human nutrition Regulatory Agencies continue to require animal testing Congress and the administration can end these wasteful experiments by cutting egregious research ensuring that research is not funded if these objectives can be studied without using animals and ending the federal animal testing requirements in regulation and policy
▶ 0:46:33our second recommendation is to reinvest some of these savings from animal research and testing toward evaluation acceptance and use of innovative and more effective human-based approaches methods like organs on chips reconstructed human tissues sophisticated computer models have existed for some time but they're only supported at a fraction of the funding that goes to the animal experiments some federal efforts have already begun accelerating Innovative human-based methods the NIH has a national
▶ 0:47:03Center netum that works to evaluate and Advance non-an animal approaches across federal agencies through a congressionally mandated committee IAM with more investment and an expanded purview netum can accelerate this work and even address the reproducibility crisis in research a center at the NIH enats is already working to bridge the gap between medical research and product development by prioritizing Innovative human-based approaches recently the NIH adopted important
▶ 0:47:33recommendations on non-an animal approaches and launched the complimentary program to speed development and use of these methods each of these are great examples of steps in the right direction but the current resource investments just pale in comparison to the stronghold that animal experiments have held for decades greater support for these efforts will more quickly Advance better science that leads to improved outcomes for people while avoiding animal use there has been so much recent
▶ 0:48:04attention on getting Americans healthier if we truly want to make anim make America healthy again we have to make science human again thank you so much for this opportunity to testify and I look forward to answering your questions thank you all for being here today I will now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning uh Mr Goodman in your written statement you state the white coat waist project identified at least 10 million in NIH grants for transgender animal experiments you state that 95% of the funding came from Dr
▶ 0:48:34Fouch ni Aid why is the federal government spending taxpayer dollars to create transgender animals that's a great question I uh your microphone thank you uh it's a great question I mean I wonder why they're making cats constipated also it's a question that rings around on my head at night when I'm going to bed why we're funding these things uh a lot of the programs that are funded do latch on to some type of social Trend and then animal exp experimenters use it as a money grab
▶ 0:49:04as an excuse to get NIH tax funds from some you know in this case Dei grants were used to fund a lot of this stuff so people who abuse animals find some kind of excuse to bring in new money and they'll switch their research program over to something that's trendy to bring tax dollars into their University that I mean that's part of the big problem here is that colleges and universities are taking 25 to 40% off the top of every single go one of these grants for indirect costs that go into a slush fund that has nothing to do with research so they're willing to let experimenters do whatever they want to
▶ 0:49:34animals to keep the money flowing in some people might describe that as money laundering all right are sex change experiments that forcibly transition mice rats and monkeys necessary for science absolutely not why do these experiments at all uh if they aren't producing useful human relevant research why why again you just you think it's a money issue follow the money animal testing is big business as you know I've been long uh vocal about animal experiments and federal funded animal testing and worked with you to prevent
▶ 0:50:04V's plan to waste almost two million in taxpayer dollars dollars to uh maim and murder bagle puppies for example um why was Dr fouchy so insistent on poisoning these puppies even though as you state in your written statement the FDA does not mandate that human drugs be studied dogs so much of the problem with all of this is institutional inertia it's that people just continue doing the same thing because that's what they've done before there was a report that came out the National Academy of Sciences put out a few years ago about the va's testing
▶ 0:50:34on dogs that Congressman Kana actually helped us get the nas to conduct and they found that most of the va's testing on dogs was unnecessary and not only that it was unnecessary but one of the reasons why is that there's this circular reasoning that they use to defend it when they propose a new project they say well we use dogs previously so we're just going to use dogs again um and there's no one to break that cycle there's not enough oversight to say hey maybe we don't need to do this anymore maybe there's a better way to do it it's like you know if you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail and that's kind of the problem
▶ 0:51:05right and what would have happened to these beagle puppies if you not had if your organization hadn't rescued them in the case of those experiments uh those dogs were going to be force-fed and injected with massive doses of experimental drugs to poison them to see at what point they got sick or died and those tests will have no relevance for the safety and efficacy of that drug in human beings thank thank you Dr lock I have a few questions for you can the scientific challenges we face today be solved by relying on animal testing no not all of them
▶ 0:51:36um can you briefly describe how new technologies can allow us to transition away from animal testing without hindering scientific research uh certainly um I also want to point out that in my uh written testimony I do try to lay out a road map for how that could happen but basically what we need to do is we need to spend a lot more resources supporting these non-animal Technologies such as organs on a chip and uh organoids so we can use those to study many of the phenomena we're now studying
▶ 0:52:06animals okay thank you and uh Miss Baker um what are your thoughts today you know um reading your testimony for the opportunity to testify that it's long overdue where do we go from here how do we fix the problem I think we fixed the problem by investing in what is going right we've got to First we've got to cut a lot of this terrible animal research we need to cut um we need to cut the National Primate Research centers we are funding um these centers to the tune of millions
▶ 0:52:36of dollar hundreds of millions of dollars every year we've got to stop uh we've got to stop funding animal experiments outside the United States as Mr Goodman say that have no oversight we've got to stop if you can do if you can meet your objectives without using animals there's absolutely no reason that you should and so and thank I was going to say thank you for bringing it up the amount of money the hundreds of millions I recently found out in the state of South Carolina in my district there's a primate breeding center um and testing site
▶ 0:53:06Alpha Genesis they've made to my understanding over hundred million dollar from NIH over the last 20 or so years this is h a boondoggle it is a racket um and hundreds of millions of dollars billions of dollars in fact have been wasted on it so I want to thank you all for your uh testimony today thank you for being here I would now like to recognize my colleague uh Miss Brown for five minutes again thank you to our Witnesses for being here I think it's clear that we all agree that we do not want to see animals harmed
▶ 0:53:37and that there is work to be done to reduce our Reliance on animals for medical and scientific research so I like to start with you Miss Baker can you talk about where you think some of the current gaps in the oversight of animal um are in the an ex animal experimentation yeah I think we have some major issues with oversight we don't know really how much spending is going to um to animal experiments the public is largely in the dark we try um we try so hard to understand this information and we have to
▶ 0:54:08uh we have to come up with some of it on our own it would be great if the federal government would be more transparent in this way we do know that um we know that in 2016 the NIH said that for fiscal year 2015 47% of extra mural grants used mice um $7.4 billion is what that would be in 2024 um in 2021 ni issued a figure that said about 8% of Grants go to
▶ 0:54:38non-clinical non-animal approaches well non-clinical approaches really mean the animal tests or some of these um or the Alternatives and so a ton of money is going into this we looked into a we wanted to understand for cancer cancer is one disease area where it is well known that animals are just really poor predictors of of of human outcomes we get cancer differently it behaves differently in our bodies um the failure rate for cancer
▶ 0:55:08drugs is 94% um we it we have cures for cancer in mice we don't in humans and so we wanted to look at what is the National Cancer Institute doing how are they funding uh what what is their funding look like and so our analysis is not perfect because it's based on unfortunately um you know just the publicly available information which is not totally transparent but we found that 45% of their grants seem to be animal related and so the NIH can really um I think help
▶ 0:55:38by ensuring that there is transparency around this um there's also an oversight issue I'm just gonna reclaim because I I like to get to Dr lock too but thank you Dr lock you talked in your testimony about several different technologies that you've worked with that are direct alternatives to animal testing can you speak to the success of these Technologies and what Congress can do to be more supportive of the efforts to expand other Innovative Technologies in this space yes thank you for your question um I think there are at least two
▶ 0:56:08things that Congress can do um the first thing Congress can do is to really get a handle as my colleagues have said on how much money we're spending on these Technologies um the transparency issue is severe uh so since this is a committee on accountability I would say the first thing we need to do is we need to count we don't have that information you don't have that information the second thing that needs to be done is that these Technologies need to be what I would call
▶ 0:56:39validated and by that I mean they need to be shown that they're relevant and reliable for a particular purpose one of my frustrations now is that the federal agencies are not doing that they seem to be very reactive and they seem to want folks who are in the field to bring the data to them and then they're going to make the decision well we accept this data or don't accept this data that's a really bad situation to be in these folks who are developing the methods are entrepreneurs they're innovators they have to know what kind of Target they're shooting at
▶ 0:57:09um the third thing I would say is that we really do need to get a handle on the animal research we're doing again that's an area of transparency and we need to develop metrics so we can figure out what part of that research is actually working and what part is not working and then as my colleagues have suggested I think we should be sunsetting the stuff that's not working and reinvesting that in these new methodologies thank you very much Dr lock and as we move to decrease our Reliance on animal experimentation it's important to acknowledge
▶ 0:57:39that unfortunately there are still companies and organizations that still utilize animal testing so what can be done to move these places toward alternative models like the ones you have mentioned um thank you for that question I think there's several things that can be done the first thing we can do and I have some bias here as an academic is we can train our students in these new methods we have to move away from animal tests and animal research is always the gold standard the second thing we can do is we can energize the whole Federal grant system
▶ 0:58:10to make it much more friendly so that folks who want to use these Alternatives can actually go out and get research money to study them all right thank you with and with that um Madam chair I yield back okay thank you I will now uh yield to miss bobbert for five minutes thank you madam chair and I I appreciate your advocacy on this and and protecting uh so many animals uh against this as we've heard Savage research uh that has been taking place not only in the United States but all throughout the world and I want to thank our Witnesses today
▶ 0:58:40for your boldness to come out because it seems like anytime we expose millions and billions even of of dollars that are spent towards ridiculous research programs or or just organizations themselves um we are lashed out at we're called crazy and conspiracists and um I I want to thank you so much for taking a bold step I I I want to thank you for uh the white white coat uh waste project uh because this is not only saving precious beagles lives
▶ 0:59:10um but really exposing to the American taxpayer where their money is going and I think we all want to be good stewards of our tax money um we we are responsible for those tax dollars here in Congress and it's our responsibility to be stewards and overseers of that so I'm grateful for Doge to come in alongside of us to help expose some of this and kind of get those wheels turning but just for the folks back home real quick before I get into my questions I I want to just highlight a million seconds is 11 and a half days
▶ 0:59:41a billion seconds is 31 years and seven months it's like this this is a huge difference so when we're talking about billions of dollars going towards the cruelty of animals it is much larger than what it sounds because because it's been so watered down um to hear that Congress is spending millions or billions or even trillions of dollars God forbid if we find out what H what comes after a trillion we'll start spending that too um but uh Mr Goodman uh since 1998
▶ 1:00:12how much do you believe that the uh that the federal government has spent on animal cruelty testing thank you for the question um that's you know as we've been discussing it's tough because there's not a lot of transparency about actually how much tax dollars are being spent I would say um we're probably looking at a trillion in spending by ni since 98 and if about 47% of that is used for experiments on animals half a trillion dollars could have potentially been spent on animal testing since 1998
▶ 1:00:43that that is an extreme number um thank you for that and Mr Goodman um how much money do you think that uh niad on um wasted on unethical and useless and abusive testing I I would imagine it's about the same because none of this has been very useful or effective yeah so uh Dr fouchy Ran niad from 1984 to 2022 and when he left at the end of 2022 it had a $6.5 billion budget again we don't know what percentage of that was at was for animal testing but probably
▶ 1:01:13higher than the average across NIH and I just want to make a note here that Dr fouchi and I don't have any issue with him outside of his abuse of animals he was not just a paper pusher he was personally involved in animal experimentation experimenting on monkeys giving them HIV like viruses until the day he left NIH he was the lead investigator on grants that were funded by taxpayers to do that and he started his career by infecting chimpanzees with HIV and promising we were going to have an AIDS vaccine back in the 80s which we
▶ 1:01:43never got because as you mentioned they don't get HIV they don't get AIDS they don't get sick so there's been an enormous amount of waste and abuse and his legacy unfortunately he's gone from government but his legacy at niad lives on yes fortunately he has gone from government but that doesn't vent us from holding him accountable for uh not only the wasteful spending but the the cruel tests that have taken place over the years so uh maybe you answered my next question how many of these treatments um have found cures in in humans um that that come from this cruel kind of testing virtually none you know we've
▶ 1:02:13heard the statistics today and any that have come it's out of pure dumb luck and they're the exception not the rule because animal experiments are a dead end there it's pure chance if something good comes out of it and so um I'm seeing here with niad um you know the budget um of spending $6.5 billion dollar in taxpayer money um it's been used to pay Eco Health Alliance um to import hundreds of Asian bats into the US for um new viruses in labs in Colorado run by the Wuhan linked
▶ 1:02:44uh researchers that was 6.7 billion dollar for the Colorado State uh University in Fort Collins to research bats here in in in America and um we've also sent billions of taxpayer dollars um to unaccountable labs in China and other foreign countries implant aborted baby Parts into a lab animals have have you heard of that sort of research yeah um we did an analysis a few years ago showing that over 90% of
▶ 1:03:14H uh experiments with using human fetal tissue and putting them involved uh animals were funded by fouches niad do you know where they're getting the aborted human fetal tissue um um a lot of it is happening at colleges and universities that have affiliate affiliated hospitals that perform that procedure Madam chair I think we need to look into that as well um my time is expired I apologize to our other Witnesses I did have questions for you but I'll submit those in writing thank you that's wild um I would now like to recognize uh Mr
▶ 1:03:44subramanium for five minutes of questioning uh thank you um I'm glad we're having this hearing today I actually had the chance to talk to um an animal care program manager at a a research facility and uh he said something really interesting he said the day we no longer need animals for research is the day we've succeeded as an industry so I think what you're finding that is that even the people who are employed to um run these programs are starting to realize that uh
▶ 1:04:14we'd like to see um a path to where we no longer need animals and so uh I think that's really interesting one of the things I I um would like to know though is how far away are we until the Technologies can completely replace animals and we can still be on The Cutting Edge of science you know I'm an animal lover I'm a vegan even I've very much support getting rid of animals and all testing uh but I want to make sure that we also you know do The Cutting Edge research that we need to do I'd ask all three really miss Baker
▶ 1:04:44Dr luck Mr Goodman if you could address how far away are we and I also love to know what kind of investment do we need does it have to be from the public sector can is there um you know private sector um you know companies going after this getting Venture funding for it for instance I'd love to know you know what we can do what the path it looks like thank you for the question there are so many incredible technologies that we have today that we should be using to be on The Cutting Edge
▶ 1:05:15so you know using animals is not cutting edge using animals is something that has been done for so long the Innovative approaches are not don't they don't use animals they are human biology based because we need to understand human outcomes if if we want to talk about Innovation if you look to other just take a look at any other industry look at the phone industry what was a phone in the 1950s versus what it is today what was a car back then versus what it is today what is science
▶ 1:05:45doing back then what was science doing back then versus what is happening today a lot of the regulatory tests that are done are the same exact tests that have been done for since the 1950 50s so if we're talking about um really being on The Cutting Edge we absolutely have to be embracing and supporting and investing in these approaches um it's not just our federal government there are a lot of uh there are many companies that exist today that have already developed these approaches um I think they
▶ 1:06:15I think they will do much better once we do things like remove requirements for testing products on animals because um there still is so much favoritism in science for using the animal-based approaches because people think that you have to do it if you want to get an an NIH Grant you have to do it if you want to get through the FDA and so once those things really start to change I think we'll see a lot more investment in the government and outside Dr lock the same question yes
▶ 1:06:45thank you for the question um the good news is that at least in one area Cosmetics testing we are pretty much out of the animal testing business um if you look at other areas for example testing of environmental chemicals uh drugs and Discovery were not there yet how long as it going to take I always like to say it's not a matter of if but it's a matter of when but no one's ever asked me to put a time on that and I'm afraid I can't do that I know what steps we need to take to get there
▶ 1:07:16which are to really start to fund these uh Technologies to make sure that these Technologies are valid to get the federal government to really be very very much of a leader in these I do believe that we have an incredibly entrepreneurial private sector that is well positioned to be leaders in these in the World Market you you're seeing all sorts of continuous funding of these from Venture capitalists you're seeing all sorts of use of these Technologies in medical settings there's a lot of
▶ 1:07:46personalized medicine that is that is being used so the future is very bright um I think it's just really a matter of getting us on the right path Pathway to do that it's not going to be something unfortunately I think it's going to happen in 5 years or 10 years but it could happen in 20 30 40 maybe not even within my lifetime but to be honest with you I don't really care as long as we get on that pathway I'm Mr Goodman I think I'm a little more optimistic I mean we could stop
▶ 1:08:16animal testing today it's useless it's misleading us it's causing us to waste billions of dollars every year Decades of time and energy and very SM people these are some of the smartest people in the world you cut off their funding for animal testing they're going to figure out something else to do the private sector is going to innovate stop forcing companies to test on animals stop doing out billions of dollars to animal experimenters who have no incentive to innovate and actually solve problems because that's what keeps the grants coming they'll figure out another way to do it and we're going to get solutions that way
▶ 1:08:46uh the EPA is a great example I know my time's up but the EPA set a timeline in 2019 the Trump Administration said by 2035 we're going to phase out all animal tests ing which was great it was laed by Republicans Democrats everyone across the Spectrum thought it was a great idea within months of that uh with within months of the bid Administration taking over they killed that plan to phase the timeline to phase out animal testing at the EPA because environmental groups pushed them to do it saying that it was an environmental justice issue that we needed to do more animal testing not less which is
▶ 1:09:17ridiculous um so I think that if you take the politics out it if we're concerned with science and we're concerned about being good stewards of taxpayer dollars in the Public's interest can end animal testing tomorrow we're going to be fine and we're actually going to be better off thank you thank you I would now like to recognize Mr Crane for five minutes thank you uh M chairwoman for holding uh this hearing today thank you guys for showing up it was just yesterday in uh an oversight hearing that I asked chairman
▶ 1:09:47comr if uh we could get some therapy dogs up here um because of some of the meltdowns that were going on I had no idea I'd walk into to this hearing today and uh see three uh beautiful beagle puppies and I've uh noticed that my moods already improved so thank you guys for bringing them there I think we should make it mandatory um we also talked about in the oversight Committee hearing yesterday the some of the ridiculous programs and initiatives that need to be cut from our bloated government
▶ 1:10:18and it seems like a lot of these studies are just another example of our senseless out of- control spending by bureaucrats who never really get held accountable I want to start with you Mr Goodman you said you have estimated over $20 billion in taxpayer money wasted on ineffective animal research is that correct sir wow um Mr Goodman did you also say that 200 it was your estimation that 240 $241
▶ 1:10:48million was spent for transgender animal testing yes and that's I would say is the floor not the ceiling because the information on federal databases is not it was pretty incomplete so you think we're going to find out it that it was much more money than that for yes transgender animal testing yes can you describe what exactly the American people's taxpayer dollars were spent on regarding transgender animal testing
▶ 1:11:18yeah uh in a lot of these cases they're involve mice rats monkeys who are being uh surgically mutilated and subjected to hormone therapies to mimic female to male or maleo female gender transitions um gender affirming the hormone therapies and then looking at the biological psychological and physiological effects of the gender transitions looking at the effects of taking vaccines after
▶ 1:11:48you've transition these animals from male to female or female to male looking at the size of their genitals changing after you've put them on estrogen or testosterone therapies to transition transition them um and in the case that the chairwoman the example the chairwoman gave there was a $1.1 million Grant to give female labat testosterone to mimic transgender male humans and then overdose them
▶ 1:12:18with this party drug to see if animals who were taking test female animals taking test tone were more likely to overdose on the sex party drug than animals who are not taking testosterone Mr Goodman are many of these taxpayer funded animal studies shared with the public or is there a significant oversight of This research you essentially needed a degree in information technology to navigate the federal spending databases to find any
▶ 1:12:48of this stuff so so what you found is we're not being very transparent with what we're spending these funds on not at all it's by Design did you say that Dr fouchy uh in your estimation had funded close to 95% of these animal uh re research projects uh yeah in our analysis Dr fouchy funded about 95% of the trans dender animal experiments okay I found in uh found in some research that the EPA under President Trump is planning to reduce the agency's
▶ 1:13:18animal testing by 30% by 2025 and completely by 2035 Mr Mr Goodman can you explain why that's a win for the American taxpayer absolutely uh animal testing is incredibly time intensive inaccurate and expensive uh and it's not very good at predicting the human health effects or environmental effects of uh chemicals and pesticides and right now what we are doing to test human effects is poisoning lab animals forcing them to breathe Wildfire
▶ 1:13:49smoke simulated in a laboratory by burning different uh types of foliage and pumping into animals cages making them obese to simulate what it would be like for obese people to be exposed to Wildfire smoke shooting off handguns and rifles and forcing animals to breathe the uh emissions and gun control experiments and the list goes on and on and that's what's happening currently at the EPA after the Biden Administration overturned the Trump plan to phase out testing uh Mr Goodman one more question you've
▶ 1:14:19also been outspoken about the covid-19 outbreak stemming from Dr fouche's us funded research at China's Wuhan lab what are the public health risk if we continue some of these outrageous animal studies uh we're FLIR Flirting With Disaster if we continue to fund dangerous virus research both abroad like in Colorado where they're trying fouchy green lit This Bat lab they're trying to import hundreds of bats from Asia to build a new lab in Colorado to do virus experiments with ebola NEPA Lassa
▶ 1:14:49deadly viruses for which there's no cure it's just a matter of time before we have another pandemic on our hands if we let Mt scientist run a muck with our money thank you I yield back all right I will now yield five minutes to Mr burles thank you madam chair thank you for this this hearing I I have to admit whenever I saw the the subject line of this I was surprised that this was a thing um I I'm I'm I'm shocked I think the American people should be even more shocked to find and discusted to find out
▶ 1:15:20what's happening with their dollars um I think it's it's actually embarrassing I can't imagine people from other countries look at this country as beacon and as an example and here we are spending money taxpayer dollars to try to study transgender animal like transing animals and testing them um on on party drugs I mean it's it's insane my question to you Mr Goodman is
▶ 1:15:50I understand that your organization white coat waist helped expose the taxpayer funded experiments on bats that led to the co pandemic so can you walk us through how how how did you come about that how how what was your investigation how did you come get the information yeah thanks for the question again it's an honor to be here um in 2018 we uncovered a lab at the USDA here right outside of the Beltway where they were breeding hundreds
▶ 1:16:20of kittens every year and then flying to China and other foreign countries to these disgusting wet markets and buying dog and cat meat they were then putting it in their car federal employees they were then putting it in their carry-on luggage flying it back to the United States and then Force feeding dog and cat meat to kittens in this government laboratory in Maryland they had spent $22 million on this project for what purpose they wanted to know if people eating
▶ 1:16:50dog and cat meat in China might be exposed to a particular parasite that could be carried in dog and cat meat wow so that was when we first got a sense that taxpayer your first that was the first clue you continue to follow that unfortunately the Trump Administration shut that project down they adopted out the cats who were left in the lab two of them went to live with my boss the president and founder of white coat Way project de delil and petite lived happily ever after with him but that set us on the scent of fign
▶ 1:17:21aid for animal research um in late 2019 we discovered a list on the NIH website of all the labs in China receiving taxpayer dollars and in January of 2020 we went there's like still 26 how many were were there at that there were there were more than 30 at the time and there were actually labs in Russia receiving taxpayer money at the time in January of 2020 we met with the White House to flag for them that these labs in China including the Wuhan lab were receiving taxpayer funding and then in April 2020 we finally
▶ 1:17:51went public uh working with Congressman Matt Gates and J Ernst we went public exposing the grant that fouchy sent to the Wuhan lab through ecoh Health Alliance to fund the gain of function experiments um and then since then we've been working to defund Eco Health defund the Wuhan lab and cut funding for all animal Laboratories and adversarial Nations as a matter of Animal Welfare government waste and National Security what what kind of sick and twisted individual comes up with a plan to
▶ 1:18:21have an experiment where you're going to you know feed animal like cannibal Fe turn these animals into cannibals and see what the outcome is where where does that come from like what was the thought process how did the the PHD student who's doing the research or what what what how did they make that pitch to get that Grant if it tells you anything about the government's thinking the person responsible for this experiment is in the usda's Hall of Fame you the name Dr
▶ 1:18:53duie Dr be wow um let me ask this question I just have a little bit more time left given the fact that we have got Quantum Computing we have um we have now ai is isn't there opportunities where we can if they're truly are trying to do research and determine something couldn't they run some of these a lot of This research through you know advanced technology using quantum computers data centers um absolutely and there's
▶ 1:19:23studies that have come out of John's Hopkins and elsewhere showing that things like screening drugs and chemicals for human safety are actually much more accurate and efficient using uh computer modeling and AI than testing on lab on a completely different species correct right with completely different DNA it would make sense thank you I appreciate what you do thank you for exposing all of this it's it's shameful that we're still sending money to these but we will do every I will do everything we can to try to
▶ 1:19:53stop this than thank you so much all right thank you Mr burlson with agreement from the ranking member the chair and ranking member will each get an additional five minutes to ask questions so I'm going to yield to the ranking Member First uh thank you very much Madam chair so um I want to Circle back to you Miss Baker um with regards to potential legislative solutions that Congress can uh do to support an increase oversight of animal experimentation
▶ 1:20:25yeah thank you for this question you know one of the one of the things that was mentioned is the numbers of animals it is unbelievable that in 2025 in the United States we still don't know how many animals are used in research the estimate is you know up to a 100 million um but we need to know that number and one of the reasons we don't know that number is that a lot of the animals that are used in research are not even recognized as animals under the law my iice rats
▶ 1:20:55Birds breed for research invertebrates they are not animals under the law and so they are not counted we can amend the Animal Welfare act to count Those Animals by including them in the definition of animals um if there are you know if there's no appetyte for amending the Animal Welfare act there are other Solutions and especially focused on federal government spending so the NIH does require recip recipients of NIH funding to um to do
▶ 1:21:25some reporting um but it's not transparent and it's not accurate every four years if you receive if you receive NIH grants every four years you need to provide some assurances that you are complying with um with NI NIH policies and um in that is an average daily inventory of animals it's just an estimate um it's not transparent to get that information you would have to do Foya requests and so there is actually some proposed legislation Federal animal research accountability
▶ 1:21:56act um that simply that could change this simply put if you receive NIH grants then once a year you need to report on um how many animals you have used how many have been housed bred used in research and that should be made transparent thank you for that um I appreciate you um giving your testimony today and and I think it's Mr Goodman I I do have a question with regards we
▶ 1:22:26keep hearing about the care and I think that the gender affirming care and I do find that concerning just for clarification purposes can you let me know what is that dollar figure and where is the source from uh for those experiments yes that's the dollar the source of that is NIH Reporter website and the usaspending.gov website okay and what was the dollar figure um let me get it for you and I have a spreadsheet with all those projects okay I'd be happy to share it the dollar figure was $240 million
▶ 1:22:57in recent grants $26 million of those are active grants okay and the 241 million is for so that's grants that are available in the NIH reporter database that I think we use and again I have this actual search saved if you use Search terms transgender and animal models those were the hits that came up okay cuz I think the article that you cited in um your statement indicated there was $10 million I was trying to geted yeah
▶ 1:23:27that original article that was just a subsection of the a sub selection of the projects it wasn't everything okay all right thank you very much you're welcome all right and I will yield back thank you and I'm going to yield to myself for five minutes and uh congresswoman Boer I'm going to yield to you for a minute or two if you have I think you had a couple extra questions you want to ask my first question Mr Goodman what is the worst animal testing experiment you've ever heard of and there's some really bad ones out there what
▶ 1:23:58is the absolute worst one you've ever heard of and and uncovered the kitten cannibalism was pretty horrendous um breeding kittens just to force them to eat cat meat and then killing them even though they were perfectly healthy after they collected their feces out of a litter box I mean that's literally what was happening they were doing that to thousands and thousands of kittens um the doj until recently was stabbing SHO and blowing up live animals for training exercises we were able to cut that and
▶ 1:24:28defund that um the experiments that the NIH funded and fouchy funded in Tunisia where they were putting the dogs in heads in mesh cages and filling them with biting flies um yeah there's a lot of nightmar stuff that were being forced to fund and taxpayers don't like it and they don't even know how bad the situation is if they did they would be you know Marching In the Streets yeah and and Dr lock a question for you what are the prospects of a drug therapy that fails animal testing is it likely
▶ 1:24:58to receive regulatory approval uh thank you for your question um I'm not an expert on the drug development process but the way you've described things I think if um the drug would not make it through the tests that are required it would not be able to be in the market if I could just add though that um Congress has really looked closely at this issue about developing drugs and has and um passed a law law the FDA modernization act M that remove the requirements for testing
▶ 1:25:28drugs and um my understanding is that there's bipartisan support for another law because Congress feels that the FDA is not moving more quick more quickly in this area that is the FDA modernization act 3.0 that would force the agency to really pay a lot more attention to using Alternatives okay and then Miss Baker before I hand it over to miss Bo bobert uh I I love your idea of revisiting the Animal Welfare act I have been open to working with you and finding that language and doing a bill that would insert that language to Define what an animal is I think it's very important
▶ 1:25:58uh I'm all about small parts big difference of course I would like to eradicate animal testing Al together but that seems like an easy win that we could work on together in a nonpartisan manner so uh I would love to talk to you about that and I will yield the last two and a half minutes to miss bobbert thank you madam chair I think uh the NIH probably should change their um acronym to fod faces of death um this very much sounds like a show that my my mother would not let me watch as a child and uh you know just hearing how egregious this
▶ 1:26:28is um there there's many more things that I have listed here of course we've heard of the beagles who were in the mesh cages um I I don't know if their their vocal cords were paralyzed or if they were removed but they were prevented from barking correct yeah um there was a project that uh Dr fouy funded actually we worked with chairwoman ma to expose that they were doing drug testing where they were poisoning puppies with massive doses of drugs in the laboratory cut there there was actually a line item in the contract for a cordectomy wow to cut the
▶ 1:26:59vocal cords so the dogs would not bark in the lab wow um and so we we've heard that we've heard of electros shock therapy um even to the point where cats had their spinal cords um exposed their their back sliced open and that electroshock therapy was given um to test for elect um erectile dysfunction and um cognitive issues and so many other things um and so I I ended my last round of questioning talking about the um implantation of aborted
▶ 1:27:29fetal tissues and you said the universities partner with clinics who are performing these abortions now how does that process work and who funds that do are are the mothers of these aborted babies giving permission do they know it's taking place is there taxpayer funding in in the crosshairs of that other than the actual testing itself that's outside of my wheelhouse okay that again Madam chair I think this is something we should look into um I would love to see just what permissions are
▶ 1:28:00are granted um and and given for that I I know that we have some regulatory um framework within um the Department of Health and Human Services and uh the Public Health Service Act and regulations include um prohibitions on buying or selling the tissue of um of valuable consideration but also U but they allow for compensation for costs associated with the tissue handling and so I would love to look into that so so not only can we prevent the cruelty and the animals like these beautiful beagles we see here today um
▶ 1:28:30but also um even um even our children who are are being harmed in this process as well for whatever reason it may be but Madame chair um I would love to uh continue to work with you on this and um hold Dr fouchy the NIH uh niad and everyone else accountable for uh this wasteful spinning and I yield thank you I'd now like to yield five minutes to Mr Maguire
▶ 1:29:03all right the new guy is learning all right thank you chairwoman for doing great thank you for bringing this egregious and Evil issue to my attention I don't think anyone in my district or our country would approve I want to thank you for our Witnesses for coming in as a veteran as a Navy SEAL we use dogs and they save many lives we call them furry missiles and my wife and I have a great pair of knees and our dog is part of the family and uh I was not aware of what you've brought to our attention and after listening to it uh the chairwoman talked about this being a bipartisan issue it should
▶ 1:29:33be it's definitely uh evidence that uh evil does exist and with the we spend more in our country per day than we bring in per day which is going to syn this country if you don't get under control I cannot believe the amount of money that we are spending to do these crazy things uh I want to start with Dr lock um approximately how many drugs are on the market today rely on safety and efficacy data from multiple animal models before being allowed to move to human clinical trials thank you for your
▶ 1:30:03question I'm I don't have a good figure for you other than to say that as as you correctly stated the law requires safety and efficacy and before the FDA modernization Act was passed and probably even after it was passed most of those drugs almost certainly had to go through some sort of animal testing but I can't put a number in it I'm sorry no worries I strongly advocate for the welfare of animals uh Dr lock would you agree that eliminating animal Tes and entirely from the research and development of drugs and vaccine could significantly hinder our ability to assess
▶ 1:30:34safety and efficy potentially delaying life-saving treatments at the present time we would need to transition away from animals yes I do agree with that statement that's what I think all right Dr L given your knowledge and alternative Tes and models can you briefly list and describe different examples of technological Alternatives yes thank you for your question um one of the ones I mentioned in my testimony are these things called organs on a chip which are just like what they sound like they're small engineered devices and they mimic the organs that we have in our body
▶ 1:31:04so there's a lung on a chip there's a heart on a chip there's a liver on a chip and those don't have exactly the same fun every of the same functions that our organs do but they have enough so that you can make good decisions based on the biology that you learn from those in many cases you can actually put human cells in there you're putting human cells in there to study chemicals and you can also begin to link these together to get a whole body on a chip um another area where we've had a lot of advances in developing these things called organoids so organoids are groups of cells
▶ 1:31:35from let's say a brain or a liver or a heart and you put them in a dish and they actually organize themselves into something that looks like a human organ but it's not exactly the same but again it has enough function so you can study it and you can expose it to chemicals and you can expose it to other things so that you might know what it is going to impact it um the important thing to remember about these two is that in terms of cost Effectiveness you can put these in a
▶ 1:32:05wellplate and you can do many many studies at the same time unlike with animals where you have a very very slow throughput these you have either a medium or a high throughput so those are two examples that I'm most familiar with um our um other Witnesses have mentioned AI um computational models that's another very very powerful one but we have all these unbelievable techniques now where we can actually use these for personalized medicine so I think everyone here has a medical school in their District
▶ 1:32:35or um a university in their District that does this but for example if I wanted to if I was suffering from a disease and there were two options for treatment for that disease and one was let's say a chemical and the other was a radiation treatment you could actually take cells from my body and you could regress those cells to sem cells then make apologize I'm running out of time I have another question I wish I had a list of the egregious things that my colleague Lauren bobbert listed I couldn't believe half of or any of them but I heard I heard them mention
▶ 1:33:05kitten cannibalism which is unbelievable is that true and if so where did it happen when did it happen what did they think they were going to achieve um I I don't have any information on that question I'm sorry does any of the witnesses have yeah my organization exposed that in 2018 the usda's agricultural research service ARS uh in Beltsville had a lab where they were breeding hundreds of kittens every year and doing feeding experiments with them including going to wet markets in China and Brazil and other places buying dog and cat
▶ 1:33:36meat bringing it back to the United States and force feeding that meat to kittens for for studies looking at the pre prevalence of toxoplasmosis in dog and cat meat in wet markets abroad proof that evil does exists thank you chairwoman for bringing this to our attention and U hopefully we can stop this evil thank you thank you Mr McGuire I now like to yield to the ranking to ranking member Brown for any brief closing remarks she may have just want to thank the witnesses for being here and look forward to doing some good work on this subcommittee and I want to thank the ranking member and I look forward to working with you
▶ 1:34:06um and in fact I well we were just talking offline here I was saying I want to get on her bill about Cosmetics um and animal testing so all good things today today's conversation builds upon the work that I and many of us on oversight and throughout Congress have um been working on for years to end animal testing there are many of us up here we're not working fast enough we're trying as hard as we can so we appreciate the witnesses being here today last Congress I introduced the preventing animal abuse and waste act to prohibit the NIH from conducting or funding research that causes significant
▶ 1:34:36pain or distress to cats or dogs as an animal lover I've been Disturbed to learn about these barbaric and unnecessary experiments to create transgender mice rats and monkeys I like many most humans I have a deep adoration and love for all of God's creatures including our animals and one of my earliest memories as a child was being in Hampton South Carolina I was like four years old and my grandmother uh just made some great biscuits and breakfast and she gave me this bright pink album and it was just
▶ 1:35:06full of pictures of animals from the newspaper from Hampton and ever since then I've just loved them so much and I grew up with seven pets we had three dogs three cats and a parrot named Julio and and so uh it's just important for the work that we're doing that that all of God's creatures all animals are treated with respect and dignity and love and that they're not murdered and maimed and killed and on these horrific experiments so this Congress I will continue to fight to end all animal testing including by introducing legislation that prohibits use of federal funds
▶ 1:35:37for these cruel animal sex change experiments thank you again to our panelists the issue of taxpayer funded animal cruelty deserves our time and attention I'm thankful for your expert testimony today and with that without objection all members will have five legislative days within which to submit materials and to submit addition additional written questions for the witnesses which will then be forwarded to the witnesses for their response and we are now adjourned good job everyone