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▶ 0:15:09good morning and and Welcome to our first markup of the ways and means uh committee this Congress today we will be considering several bipartisan bills designed to improve the tax system for all Americans as the economy evolves and Technology advances it is important that we look for ways big and small to improve the system for taxpayers at the same time we have to look for opportunities to reduce waste Fraud and Abuse that is what today's markup is all
▶ 0:15:39about our first bill from representative malakis kustoff and Su addresses the serious problems of stolen tax refund checks this rampant theft is made even Crazier by the fact that often the replacement checks sent to those who had their origin refunds taken are also then stolen the IRS has no process for taxpayers to request a replacement through direct
▶ 0:16:09deposit which would help mitigate this crime wave that is entirely entirely unacceptable this bill forces the IRS to do its job to better serve taxpayers and create an easy way for taxpayers to request replacement checks via direct deposit our next three bills are common sense ideas that make it easier for Americans to file taxes and hold the IRS accountable each of these be bills represent effective
▶ 0:16:40ways Congress can cut the burden of filing taxes for families and small businesses the first bill helps guarantee the independence of employees of the national taxpayer Advocate the national taxpayer Advocate is tasked with defending taxpayers against the IRS and recommending reforms to make the IRS more taxpayer friendly this bill is simple right now the national taxpayer Advocate is not permitted to hire
▶ 0:17:10her own attorneys that report directly to her thanks to this bill introduced by representatives finstra and Davis the taxpayer Advocate will be responsible for taxpayer Advocate personnel which will enhance The Advocates independence from the IRS and yield better return for the American ameran taxpayer the second Bill provides taxpayers with accurate information when the IRS uses math airor authority to make an adjustment on
▶ 0:17:40their tax return frequently folks are not made aware of or given an expl explanation when the IRS determines a return has a math or clerical error the result can leave taxpayers paying more in taxes because they have no no way of challenging the irs's assessment of their tax liability this bill from representatives fenstra and Schneider levels the playing field for taxpayers and requires the IRS
▶ 0:18:11to notify individuals of any adjustments to their tax return and gives them 60 days to challenge that adjustment the third bill from Representatives Le Hood fenstra Fitzpatrick delb Panetta and Schneider updates tax in rules to make filing more taxpayer friendly tax returns and payments filed digitally will now receive the same treatment as those sent through the mail instead of being treated worse than paper filings
▶ 0:18:42our last bill extends the statute of limitations for prosecuting the theft of covid eror unemployment insurance benefits last Congress Congressman Thompson introduced an amendment during our markup of the protecting taxpayers and victims of unemployment fraud act to extend the statut of limitations and after discussion withdrew the amendment creating this opportunity for bipartisanship according to the government accountability office between 100
▶ 0:19:12to 135 billion of UI benefits were stolen during the pandemic some estimates range as high as 400 billion of the stolen money only 5 billion has been recovered as we sit here there are 157,000 open UI fraud hotline complaints and more than 1,600 ongoing fraud investigations the statute of limitations
▶ 0:19:42for these investigations run out in 43 days on March 27th if we don't extend the statute of limitations everyone of these investigations will end and those that perpetrated the greatest theft of taxpayer dollars in American history will not be brought to Justice this legislation doubles the statute of limitations from 5 to 10 years so we can continue going after these criminals who diverted funds
▶ 0:20:12from American workers and recover the money that rightfully belongs to taxpayers the Common Thread that unites each of these bills is we are putting American taxpayers first folks deserve to have their money returned from criminals they deserve to have an IRS that works for them and not the other way around these are common sense bills led by great members on both sides of the aisle and I want to thank my colleagues for your
▶ 0:20:42hard work in putting together this legislation I'm now pleased to recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts Mr nil for his opening statement thank you Mr chairman and I I do want to uh point out that I spoke with Congressman Larsson yesterday and he's doing fine and he expects to be back with us in uh short order uh full voice strong voice and we're all happy that this recovery as anticipated will be Speedy so thanks for the uh markup today in terms of
▶ 0:21:13bipartisanship we are considering four Administration bills Tax Administration bills they're all bipartisan I want to thank our colleagues for the good work that they've put in the first bill HR 1155 would require the treasury Department to establish procedures that would allow a taxpayer to elect to receive a tax refund by direct deposit if the paper check were lost or stolen I know this has been an issue in some of our districts and I want to acknowledge Miss Su and Miss Mia Takis Mr cof for their leadership on this legislation second Bill
▶ 0:21:43HR 997 would allow the taxpayer Advocate to appoint councel that reports directly to the National taxpayer Advocates rather than to the treasury Department general counsel the national taxpayer Advocate made this recommendation and including it in their legislative proposals to Congress for years so I want to acknowledge Mr Davis the ranking member of the worker and family support subcommittee and Mr finstra for their leadership on this legislation the third Tax Administration Bill HR 998 would
▶ 0:22:13require the IRS to provide a clear explanation in notices to taxpayers of any math errors that the IRS proposes to adjust another recommendation from National taxpayer Advocate would include her legislative proposals to Congress and I want to thank Mr Mr Schneider and Mr fster for their leadership on this bill as well the final Administration tax bill HR 1152 would extend the mailbox rule to electronic tax payments the mailbox rule provides that payments to the IRS are considered timely filed as long
▶ 0:22:43as they are postmark by midnight on the due date the national taxpayer Advocate recommended this rule to electronic payments and included it in as well her legislative proposals Mr Del Ben Mr Schneider Mr Panetta and Mr lulah Hood should be acknow for their work although these bills are not controversial the committee should be focusing and I want to emphasize this on the treasury Department's payment system the Democratic members of this committee have asked the treasury secretary and Doge officials to appear before us
▶ 0:23:14however this has not happened despite speaker Johnson committing to congresswoman Moore and Chu last week that indeed it would in the face of Silence from our colleagues on the Republican side we've had to take these matters into our own hands and we're going to continue to sound the alarm until we get the answers that Congress as the first branch of government deserves earlier this week five treasury secretaries pinned in oped in the New York Times entitled democracy is under siege these are mainstream political and economic thinkers that
▶ 0:23:44lent their names to this oped piece a constitutional crisis indeed is unfolding and while the courts have temporarily halted access we still have no answers answers about people with access to what this information means and and how it might be conceivably passed on not a word I moved enter this piece into the record and I want to quote it these political actors have not been subject to the same rigorous ethic rules as civil servants and indeed members of Congress and one has explicitly retained
▶ 0:24:15this role in a private company creating at best the appearance of financial conflicts of interest they lack training and experience to handle private and personal data privacy is next to Liberty in a Democratic Society the idea that this information might be released or relinquished to Bad actors is something that should concern all of us because of our constituents their power subjects American payment system and other highly sensitive data within it to the risk of exposure potentially
▶ 0:24:45to our adversaries while significant data privacy cyber security and National Security threats are gravely concerning the Constitutional issues are perhaps more alarming and corrosive to our democracy a key component of the rule of law is the executive Branch's commitment to respect Congress and its power of the purse the legislative branch has the sole authority to pass laws that determine where and how federal dollars should be spent for good reason from Magna Carta to the present questioning
▶ 0:25:15the authority of a king or questioning the authority is centralized in our government is our job our nation's credibility is on the line end of quote and I expect every member of this committee to care this committee has a special responsibility in our constitution should the situation of Treasury continue to deteriorate our Republican colleagues are going to have to step up and begin to at least raise some questions and to point out that we will be able to support some of these bills on the floor but we
▶ 0:25:45are going to question time and again this Authority if it is not consistent with our constitutional system let me say this as well as I close if I might Mr chairman I opposed a president of my own party on the line item veto issue and challenged that Authority and asked for standing in the federal courts we won I was able to oppose balanced budget amendments from our own presidents on the Democratic side and stood up for the the prerogatives
▶ 0:26:16of this committee and in fact our constitution I volunteered with former chairman Brady to be Witnesses in a court case against the previous Administration over the issue of what to do about surprise billing our job is to question the authority and previously in our history Republicans have been suspicious of centralized Authority what is happening with this data at treasury is dangerous to democracy
▶ 0:26:46we do need to understand what the confines of this information offer and provide and I hope that our committee will request that they appear before us to answer the questions that the constitution requires us to act and with that I yield back my time thank you for allowing me the Indulgence of a minute and 9 seconds of course thank you ranking member our first piece of legislation is the recovery of stolen checks act sponsored by representative Mali Takis kustoff and Su IRS refund checks have become
▶ 0:27:16a major Target for fraud and over the last couple of years there's been a substantial increase in Mel theft related check fraud taxpayers are even reporting that criminals have managed to steal their replacement checks too I know this is this is an issue that representative Mal Takis has been particularly committed to solving given the over 200 cases that have occurred in her district and the more than $3.8
▶ 0:27:46Million worth of stolen refund checks the recovery of stolen checks act will allow taxpayers to elect to receive their refund by direct deposit to ensure their money does not get stolen a second time I want to thank representatives malakis kustoff and Su for their bipartisan leadership on this legislation that will protect taxpayers and help restore faith in our tax administration I now recognize the gentle woman from New York
▶ 0:28:16for the purposes of an opening statement thank you Mr chairman I want to thank my staff and the committee staff for working diligently to combat this issue of male theft and fraud um sadly this is an issue I had to bring up to the committee a few months ago after my office had been slammed with constituent cases from taxpayers who have seen their hard-earned money stolen from them via check fraud the recovery of stolen checks Act
▶ 0:28:46is bipartisan legislation that I introduced alongside my colleagues congresswoman Terry Su and Congressman David kustoff which would allow taxpayers who have had these tax refunds stolen in the mail to receive a replacement check via direct deposit which sounds so simple yet when you're dealing with these agencies um it has become very cumbersome and they refused to move many of my constituents to direct deposit for their second checks and in some cases I've had
▶ 0:29:16not just a second check stolen from constituents a third and even a fourth check and so in my district alone we've now had 377 cases of stolen checks totaling 5 399,00 and that is my district alone imagine what it's like when we go across the country it's actually estimated to be about a billion dollars at least it has been reported that the IRS
▶ 0:29:47checks alone approximately 40,000 were stolen nationally in 20124 and that's up from just 100 in 2022 so this has become a real business for criminal organizations and Enterprises and it's very unfortunate that we're seeing this hardship and stress being placed on the intended recipients who have to had had to endure seeing that their checks are stolen and then having a wait months
▶ 0:30:17many of my constituents uh these are Social Security checks they they survive on these payments um and so what we're going to do here today is rectify the situ ation to allow them to move to direct deposit which I urge my constituents to do regardless I think that is come time and the best way to protect yourself from this type of check fraud is to move uh to direct deposit now approximately 10% of American taxpayers receive their tax refunds via paper checks equating to about 10 million paper checks issued
▶ 0:30:47annually and while the majority of taxpayers opt for direct deposit a significant number still receive refunds through Trad traditional mail the IRS plays a critical role in ensuring taxpayers receive their hard-earned refunds securely and efficiently however we have outdated it infrastructure and Delivery Systems that have left many vulnerable to fraud and stolen tax reimbursement checks that we seek to address today obviously modernizing the systems um is probably most
▶ 0:31:18critical it it is necessary to protect taxpayers enhance efficiency and reduce fraud the criminals always seem to be two steps ahead of us and we need to to make sure that we in Congress start shifting our Focus to modernizing um our our payment systems by investing in Secure digital payment options real-time tracking and enhanced verification measures the IRS can better Safeguard taxpayer funds and restore trust in the system it's time for Meaningful upgrades
▶ 0:31:48to ensure the agency meets the demands of the 21st century and prevents Financial harm to American taxpayers and billions of dollars in government waste I'm pleased to learn learn that the Bureau of fiscal Services recently launched a pilot program to leverage existing Technologies and services offered by the US Postal Service to track the transmitt of checks I look forward to reviewing those results of the pilot program and collaborating with agencies across the federal government to modernize their Delivery Systems and ensure Str
▶ 0:32:19stronger safeguards against male fraud in the future but for today uh we are taking action to help my constituents and your con constituents to ensure that they do have that option to get replacement payments via direct deposit again Common Sense solution it shouldn't have required legislation it would have been nice if the IRS and these agencies just complied and work with us through these issues uh but nonetheless we're doing what we need to do to protect the American taxpayer and I yield back thank you I now recognize the ranking member from
▶ 0:32:49Massachusetts Mr nil thank you uh let me recognize the newest ranking member of our committee General lady from Alam Miss Su thank you so much ranking member Neil and chairman Smith uh I want to thanks for holding this markup to discuss bipartisan solutions to making Tax Administration more efficient I'm proud to join and co-sponsor this legislation with representative melotakis in co-sponsoring and speaking in support of the recovery of stolen checks act this bill requires the
▶ 0:33:19treasury to make procedures that allow taxpayers to opt into receiving a replacement refund by direct deposit after paper checks have been lost or stolen in the mail right now the treasury is only allowed to continue sending a paper check to the same address even though the check was stolen or lost at the very address what do they say doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result is maddening and that's exactly what's happening in our
▶ 0:33:50treasury it's Congress responsibility to give treasury the ability to modernize become more efficient and more importantly deliver much needed payments to to people that are relying on them as quick as possible this is a straightforward and Urgent reform I spoke recently with one of my constituents who lives in the rural part of my district the black belt counties who spent months trying to receive a check from treasury she was sent two checks
▶ 0:34:20by Treasury and neither neither was delivered to her nor did she cash it before reaching out to my office for assistance we helped but the first line of defense was that we had to once again request her check be mail to her that happened another two times before she actually received her payment she just wanted the payment that was owed to her instead treasury told her that they were only allowed to continue mailing
▶ 0:34:50the check to the same address where it had failed to be delivered multiple times this policy is burdensome and simply doesn't make sense our case workers continue to encounter cases like this some taking over a year to resolve this is way too long for Americans to wait for payments that they have uh they have relied on we must do more to make the IRS easier to use and not harder this bill is a great step in streamlining the tax
▶ 0:35:20administration process we also must look uh to making it easier for those that are unbanked to also received uh their payments uh when uh it is lost or stolen I want to thank uh congresswoman motakis for her leadership and partnership on this issue and I thank the committee for considering this Common Sense legislation today I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of this Bill thank you and I yield back thank you the committee will now proceed to consideration of HR
▶ 0:35:501155 the recovery of stolen checks Act without objection the measure will be considered as read and open for Amendment at any point at this time I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it without objection the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read open for Amendment at any point and considered base text for purposes of amendment I will now turn to Tom barthol chief of staff for the joint committee on taxation to provide the technical
▶ 0:36:21description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation thank you Mr chairman the members of the committee have before them two joint committee documents jx5 and jcx 9 which describe the underlying legislation and the Chairman's amendment in a nature of a substitute in short the legislation directs the Secretary of the Treasury to prescribe regulations within six months of the date of enactment that would allow taxpayers
▶ 0:36:51whose paper refund check was lost in the mail or stolen to request direct deposit of the replacement refund check the Chairman's Amendment the nature of a substitute corrects a clerical erir of a reference to subsection rather than section this legislation would be effective upon the date of enactment and we've estimated that it has a negligible effect on federal revenues that concludes my brief presentation be happy to answer any questions that the members might have thank you are there any technical
▶ 0:37:21questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute Mr doet uh thank you Mr barthold so basically the leg legislation authorizes the treasury secretary to do something he could do on his own initiative under the under current law you're directed to uh send refund checks to the last known address right okay uh and since this is about Tax Administration let me ask you some general tax administration technical questions uh in order to do work on this legislation
▶ 0:37:52and other legislation being considered here today and at other times do you and your staff have 6103 authority to look at some confidential taxpayer records uh Mr doet yes yes sir under the uh under the code under Section 6103 the chief of staff of the joint committee is directed access and my staff is designated as agents for limited purposes and you mentioned for limited purposes so are guidelines in place so you can't just go rifling through all the private information
▶ 0:38:22of every taxpayer in the country without specific guidelines to protect privacy that's correct sir our our access is limited well uh how many individuals affiliated with Doge have access to similar sensitive taxpayer information uh Mr doggin I'm not privy to uh that sort of information well let me just ask you specifically one do staffer 25y old whose online post to say I was racist before it was cool and normalize Indian hate
▶ 0:38:52does he have access to 300 million Social Security numbers as part of do is takeover of the Bureau of fiscal service again I would not be aware Mr dogget can you tell me whether or not as part of the hijacking of the Bureau of fiscal service a high school graduate uh a doge teenager who goes by the internet handle big balls has he got access to the sensitive medical information of every American again Mr dog I I do not have information about that
▶ 0:39:23I understand that one of Mr musk hackers had read write access to the treasury's payment system for several days before a judge issued an injunction against it during that time were there any scheduled payments to taxpayers or businesses like tax refunds Social Security benefits health insurance payments that were altered or delayed in any way uh Mr dog I I don't know the schedule of payments from the Financial Management Service as as we all know Mr musk has relied
▶ 0:39:53on federal payments for a significant portion of his enormous wealth as the richest person in the world he got another $7.5 million contract this morning uh during the time that his hackers had access to the treasury payment system did they download or copy any information or take any screenshots related to payments to the business to his business competitors or alter the amount or timing of any payments to his own businesses Mr dog I wouldn't know the answer to that question
▶ 0:40:23well if you don't know the answer uh to these questions which I I think are really important for the committee to understand in order to protect the privacy of every American whose privacy has been invaded uh who would you think could provide us the answer well Mr dogget you're asking questions about the uh Administration by the treasury and the Internal Revenue Service so perhaps the Secretary of the Treasury or the current acting commissioner the IRS all right well it certainly
▶ 0:40:53would be worthwhile to have them come before the committee since one committee that tried to get Mr musk could come was thwarted uh by uh the Republican majority and our hope to explore in the oversight committee uh Doge and all the wrongdoing in which it's a part of and what the Musketeers are are headed where they're headed next uh we haven't been able to get any of that I appreciate uh the work you do and your answers thank you very much thank you are there technical
▶ 0:41:24questions to Mr Bart told in regard to this legislation the questions moving forward will be in regards to this legislation Miss Moore thank you so much Mr chairman and I just want to thank the authors of this bill uh for this very practical um Bill initiative I just want to ask Mr Barto uh what are just sort of the follow up with Mr Dogg's
▶ 0:41:54questions what generally are the qualifications and the criteria for being a treasury Department um employee who would have access to tax refunds uh whether to send them out electronically as this uh Bill proposes or to send them a replacement check what would be the uh the statutory requirements for their qualifications
▶ 0:42:24for the for background checks uh as we had come to know them uh Miss Moore I'm not familiar with the Employment Practices of the executive branch okay thank you very much you are not familiar with their practices and the qualifications I I do not know what what requirements they have for uh uh employment okay thank you I'll yield back additional
▶ 0:42:55uh technical questions on this bill seeing none we will move to strike the last word does any member wish to strike the last word Mr doggy thank you Mr chairman a storm has enveloped Washington and I'm not just talking about the snow that came down last night but the ca the chaos that's being inflicted by Doge better Nam Dodge since its accountability is totally lacking dodging the law dodging accountability
▶ 0:43:26dodging this Congress the bill before us deals with stolen checks the Urgent attention of this committee should be focused on Stolen privacy the richest man in the world and his Musketeers have invaded the privacy of every American by accessing confidential information lack tax records Social Security numbers Health Care records data so sensitive that in some cases it can lead to a 5-year prison term the uh the former nonpartisan
▶ 0:43:57top career officer at the treasury rebuffed the musketeer who wanted to gain access to this very information and pause payments this trusted guardian of our privacy for more than 35 years at the treasury Department was then pushed out of his job for trying to protect this highly information normally there would be an independent Watchdog to respond to such wrongdoing but in this case the Inspector General at the treasury Department Department
▶ 0:44:27like 16 other such Watchdogs had been fired by President Trump so that there was no accountability and no oversight and there still is not the 25-year-old musketeer who gained a access to these tax payments as I mentioned in the questions to Mr barthold uh for the record says he's a racist before it was cool he denigrated indian-americans he had also proclaimed which is interesting given the work this committee did last year quote I would
▶ 0:44:57not mind at all if Gaza and Israel were both wiped off the face of the Earth none of this bothered Trump who approved rehiring this fired employee and none of it seems to concern this committee when alarm Rose over musk access to such sensitive information the Trump Administration response was that musk minions had read only access to just look at the information not to change it while Doge Dodges any transparency on its own operations an
▶ 0:45:28affidavit filed yesterday by a bureau of financial services official confirms that the 25 year-old was granted privileges to write code concerned treasury employees believe that he has already made extensive changes to two of the most sensitive systems at the Bureau of fiscal service an agency that paid out over $5 trillion last fiscal year the payments processed by the Bureau of fiscal service include Federal Tax Returns Social Security benefits
▶ 0:45:58supplemental uh Social Security and Veterans pay and Mr musk has already boasted that he blocked payments to Lutheran Social Services and the agency for International Development does his committee have the slightest curiosity about how this invasion of these sensitive systems will impact Americans it doesn't appear they do while our paper currency says In God We Trust for this committee and this Republican control Congress it appears that it is
▶ 0:46:29simply in Elon We Trust he determines whether he has any conflict of interest himself he may not provide the slightest evidence to support his repeated claims of fraud abuse and Corruption corruption which seems to be the term always applied to whoever may choose to disagree with this Administration fortunately a federal judge was a little more concerned than this committee or our Republican colleagues throughout the Congress he noted that access of this information
▶ 0:46:59heightens the risk of leaks and that it makes these systems that we rely on for all the federal payments more liable to be hacked finding that there was a risk of irreparable harm that judge has temporarily restricted a excuse me access to the treasury Department's payment and demanded that all the copies be returned in response president Trump called this ruling quote a disgrace and said that quote no judge
▶ 0:47:29should frankly be allowed to make that kind of decision vice president Vance sent up the first trial balloon that Trump could just ignore the judge who ordered the protection and of course mus condemned corrupt judges asked yesterday if he would violate court orders the president basically replied not yet he wanted to appeal first there's another word for the unitary executive theory that is being urged in court by Trump's lawyers and permeates
▶ 0:48:00project 25 an approach that insists an infallible president can ignore both this Congress and any judicial oversight it's called dictatorship and I yield back Mr kustoff thank you Mr chairman I moved to strike the last word and I do appreciate you holding today's markup for considering this important piece of legislation the recovery of stolen Che act I also do want to thank my colleagues representative
▶ 0:48:30malakis and representative Su for joining me in introducing this bipartisan Bill we all know that over the last several years the number of government checks stolen from the mail has increased and increased dramatically it's a problem in my district in West Tennessee and I know it's a problem in all of your districts throughout the country if I can just a a few data points a report from the United States Postal inspection service found that between
▶ 0:49:00the years 2019 and 2022 this is an incredible number there was an 87% increase in the theft from mailboxes According to finson which is the financial crimes enforcement Network suspicious activity reports or SARS pertaining to check fraud doubled 2021 and 2022 so it's well past time that we get male theft in the United States under
▶ 0:49:31control I think I think we all think that Americans should be able to trust our postal system and right now they don't and and unfortunately I think for reason we've got to do a better job of detecting investigating and Prosecuting those who are Behind These thefts whether they are rogue actors or they're part of an organized criminal ring it does start with Congress making sure that our law enforcement agents have the tools and the resources that they
▶ 0:50:01need in order to do their job but we also have to ensure the taxpayers who are impacted by mail theft do in fact get timely relief um we know that getting the IRS to Simply issue a replacement check can take a long time we all get those calls in our respective offices frankly our staff's do a good job trying to work with the IRS but it is very difficult they have
▶ 0:50:31to people have to wait too long to get their replacement checks to be issued and many Americans find that the check is stolen as well so due to the outdated IRS rules taxpayers who have physical checks stolen have no other option to receive their payment uh if you're refund check was stolen at the local post office which does happen you have no choice but to request another physical check which will be mailed and processed by the same post
▶ 0:51:02office so the current system that we have does not make any sense and that's why this bill the recovery of stolen checks actly just pretty straightforward it's straightforward it's Common Sense it'll give the victims of maale theft the option to receive their replacement payment through direct deposit which will be quicker and more secure in instead of having to risk having another mailed check making this simple
▶ 0:51:32fix will expedite relief to affected taxpayers it'll keep government checks out of the hands of criminals and ultimately I believe it'll make our government more efficient so I urge my colleagues to to support this important piece of bipartisan legislation and with that Mr chairman I thank you and I I'll yield back Mr Thompson thank thank you Mr chairman Mr chairman since news broke that Elon Musk and his associates gained access
▶ 0:52:03to the taxpayer information of every American our constituents are demanding that we take action the Ways and Means Committee is the committee of jurisdiction and the Republicans have scheduled nothing to address our constituents concern they've not called the Secretary of the Treasury nor have they called Elon Musk to come before our committee to answer important qu these important questions every member of Congress must submit a financial disclosure
▶ 0:52:33uh form and disclose conflicts of interest yet we've seen nothing from Elon Musk he has access to incredible amounts of data and the American people want to know how he's using it as a republican colleague mentioned yesterday during the oversight hearing we had on this very dis if you have nothing if you're if you've done nothing wrong there's nothing to worry about and I agree so let's call them in to testify
▶ 0:53:04it is incumbent upon us to get the answers Mr chairman our constituents want those answers Mr chairman our constituents know we are moving towards dangerous and unprecedented times our system of checks and balances will be tested several lawsuits and subsequent court orders have been issued to stop Doge activities yet tweets by the Vice President and other Republicans have suggested ignoring
▶ 0:53:35court or orders and I'd like to ask unanimous consent to have these tweets and these comments uh entered into the official record without objection thank you Mr chairman even speaker Johnson said yesterday quote the courts should take a step back that's dangerous the United States of America our great country is a nation of laws it is unacceptable that any leader regardless of party contemplates ignoring
▶ 0:54:05the rule of law our constituents demand more and our nation deserves better I yield back Mr berer thank you Mr chairman Mr chairman I strike the last word Mr chairman I first I'd like to thank miss m takas and Miss Su uh for this I think very good bill um as as with so many people on the panel I have one constituent who lost an $800,000 check mailed to her by the by treasury but but
▶ 0:54:35Mr chairman less than a year ago my Republican friends led the charge to pass legislation out of this committee that dramatically increased penalties for the UN unlawful disclosure of confidential taxpayer information unauthorized disclosure of tax returns or return information is already a felony and already punishable by fines or imprisonment and the bill we mark marked up would have raised the fine from $55,000 to a maximum penalty of up to $250,000 and doubl the maximum imprisonment from 5 to 10 years per violation
▶ 0:55:06the Zeal among Republican members of this committee last year for the protection of taxpayer privacy was notable then in fact chairman Smith you stated quote it is up to us as members of the chief tax writing Committee in Congress to protect the public trust and to secure private taxpayer information I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment while Americans file their tax turns they have every right to assume that their private information such as their social security numbers incomes and Bank rting information will not be accessible to others without a
▶ 0:55:36legitimate reason now fast forward to this year we have a new president and apparently a new Shadow president named Elon Musk this unelected billionaire has been given enormous latitude by President Trump to plant members of a so-called Department of government efficiency throughout the federal government some of whom have records of leaking sensitive information or or holding overtly racist views one of these staffers a 25-year-old named Marco alz with no government or relevant experience was installed at the treasury Department just days
▶ 0:56:06ago and was granted broad privileges to read and write code within some of the most sensitive systems in the US government the payments processed by these systems include Federal Tax Returns Social Security benefits and Veterans pay after rooting around in these systems for several days doing who knows what Mr LZ resigned right before this post made from his social media account surfaced in these posts he portrays himself as a self-described eugenicist and racist always
▶ 0:56:36a good judge of character Mr muskus stated he wants to rehire him as soon as possible and potentially put him back in a position to unlawfully view and meddle with Americans private information once again meanwhile sadly I've heard barely a peep from my Republican friends on this committee about this who seem to have forgotten their passion for protecting the privacy of American taxpayers and they seem intent on turning a blind eye to this particular unprecedented breach this is remarkable as our own chairman said a few months ago we must protect
▶ 0:57:06the public trust and to secure private taxpayer information Congressional Democrats have stepped into this void left by our Republican colleagues and demanded answers and accountability and I hope that our friends on the other side of the aisle will join us thank you I yield back additional members wish to strike the last word Miss Moore thank you Mr chairman and let me just thank the authors of the bill for putting forth this very common sense
▶ 0:57:37Bill to provide that people who had are owed their tax returns will get them I looking forward Mr chairman to legislation that will reign in Mr M musk and the Doge team so that they can't decide who deserves money and who doesn't deserve money what we have seen from the Doge team is that they have been
▶ 0:58:07arbitrarily cancelling contracts that they don't agree with cancelling programs like usaid that they don't agree with and hopefully uh given this legislation which doesn't deal with this issue they won't find taxpayers that they don't think deserve to get their refund and of course uh Mr musk has ensured us that there's great transparency uh and he his
▶ 0:58:37transparency involves posting uh uh uh on X uh that's his idea of being transparent we also don't know whether or not Mr Mr musk who has several We Believe conflicts of interest given the um uh given his business with the United States government Space X and other things we don't know with his being
▶ 0:59:07in charge of our system that he won't uh um uh enrich himself in an inlaw an unlawful way surely uh Mr musk doesn't have to depend on a paper check in order to do this for himself or his friends and so I'm looking forward Mr chairman to our legislation uh that will secure
▶ 0:59:38uh the data for all Americans that will prevent uh Mr musk and the jge team from determining who will or who will not uh get their rightful Appropriations rightful funds uh and I am I'm while I'm going to vote for this legislation today I would look forward to to that to that legislation I just do want to remind you Mr chairman
▶ 1:00:09of your Ardent support uh in the past for transparency uh and for uh legal acts related to the dis the disposition of Treasury uh assets and with that I would yield back and thank you for your attention Miss vany yes I I I want to make sure that I'm in the right hearing um we're supposed to be here actually doing a markup and right now on the floor is the recovery of the stolen checks act
▶ 1:00:39right I just want to make sure that I'm in the right hearing because what I'm hearing is this has absolutely nothing all the comments that we're hearing there's a lot of charges that are being are being directed toward Elon Musk and toward president Trump with absolutely no evidence whatsoever I asked the question yesterday do we have evidence that information has been leaked answer is no will the I aming I am not yielding you had your time and I appreciate it but ever since it was announced that
▶ 1:01:09secretary bassant granted individuals associated with Doge read only access to certain treasury Payment Systems Democrats have not stopped making false accusations during the oversight subcommittee yesterday members had a chance to learn more from our WT Witnesses about the allegations that are being directed at the administration in Doge they didn't ask our Witnesses confirmed what we already knew to be true that there's no evidence of illegal access or illegal disclosures of taxpayer
▶ 1:01:39information and yet they still continue to make these charges what we do know is because of this Doge effort because of Elon Musk getting in there we have found $1.5 million that was sent to advance diversity Equity inclusion in Serbia's and business communities $70,000 for a production of a Dei musical in Ireland $2.5 million for electric vehicles for Vietnam $47,000 for a transgender Opera in Colombia $32,000 for a
▶ 1:02:09transgender comic book in Peru $2 million for sex changes in LGBT activism in Guatemala $6 million to fund tourism in Egypt we have uncovered an insane level of fraud within Federal entitlement programs estim losses exceeded at a100 billion because of fraudulent claims and mismanagement and last week alone they revealed that FEMA allocated $59 million to house migrants in luxury hotels in New York City
▶ 1:02:40and as a result of this four employees from FEMA have been dismissed now I'm sorry I think these are all things that the American public is behind that Democrats are trying to make a scandal out of nothing because they hate Elon Musk they hate Donald Trump and they're mad because they lost an election I would really hope that we could come together and work for the American people I'm at this hearing right now to look at some wonderful pieces of legislation and with that I yield Mr Neil thank you I move to strike the last
▶ 1:03:10word Mr chairman I pointed out that privacy is next to Liberty the first time that a Medicare Part D prescription drug for somebody who has perhaps AIDS is released to the public under social secur disability the nature of the disability once that's leaked to the public it is the power to destroy questions that are being asked come under the jurisdiction of the Department of the treasury and the Internal Revenue Service who has access to
▶ 1:03:40enormous amounts of data with that let me yield my time to Miss Moore thank you Mr chairman and I just want to respond briefly to the gentle L's comments regarding false claims that are being made the reality is is we don't know what they're doing and you know I would hope that the general lady would stand up for article one of the
▶ 1:04:11Constitution and that's us we have the to appropriate funds to unappropriate funds and that is not the purview and disposition of Doge um and and and I am standing up for this institution and I would hope that you would too and so in my comments you know I hope that at some point we take up legislation
▶ 1:04:41to re in our power um and uh I would yield back to the gentleman um to to the to the ranking member thank you and I yield the balance of this time to Mr doet well thank you very much I just want to make clear what happened at yesterday's oversight hearing because it's been misrepresented yes it is true that a witness came from the government accountability office and said she had no evidence of anything she had no evidence of anything because
▶ 1:05:11she didn't have any authority to investigate anything what we wanted was to have a hearing in which elen musk or anyone from Doge his 25-year-old racist his 19-year-old high school graduate with an exit of testosterone we'd like for them to come and explain what they were doing and what they had access to now if there's an example like she gave us of a wasteful program in Peru or Guatemala or anywhere else I'm the first one who wants to see it eliminated
▶ 1:05:42it did not take getting into the records of 300 million people to do that there's been no justification as to why Elon Musk and his band of Musketeers needed to go into the most sensitive itive issues the most sensitive records in the treasury Department they had every opportunity to far it out waste as this Congress should be doing wherever it occurs but that was not what happened what happened is that this band of Musketeers got into the most
▶ 1:06:12sensitive files and before they did that they displaced a career civil servant a nonpartisan guardian of our privacy and apparently our Republican colleagues are are just fearful of any accountability the notion that there is no evidence of any wrongdoing is absolutely correct if you believe in the motto in elen We Trust we don't have anyone who is overseeing what he's doing
▶ 1:06:42or doing anything other than accepting his word and that of his band in an unquestioned way uh I think uh as Mr Thompson indicated reciting comments that were made yesterday let the sun shine in let's have some accountability let's have this committee exercise its oversight Authority and get the people here the treasury secretary the people who are a part of this Doge effort we don't know we we do know now that uh there has been a financial disclosure filed
▶ 1:07:12by Mr musk uh but it's private it's secret there is no transparency there is no Sun shining in as there is not on any of the other activities of Doge what shining in is his engagement and intrusion into the privacy of Americans Miss vanoy is absolutely right uh they claim that there was only read Authority but we've had evidence to the contrary that that's not right that they were either incorrect or deliberately
▶ 1:07:42uh misleading us on that as has happened with all their other work let's not go down the path to dictatorship let's get a little accountability a little check and balance I'm confident that there are some Republican colleagues who care about this as much as we Democrats do we just need them to speak out to exercise their Authority as competent members of this Congress and do what's right by the American people I yield back Mr Buchanan
▶ 1:08:12I yield my time to Mrs vany thank you very much I I look at this and for the entire time that I've been on this uh committee this the Republicans have been trying to get more information out have been trying to expose and try to be transparent we actually had a bill about a whistleblower hotline for all of these folks within the the government to be able to call in we didn't get any support from Democrats on that we have been trying our best because we've been able to uncover waste
▶ 1:08:43Fraud and Abuse of power a number of times we do know that information was leaked that information that was leaked was by an IRS um um employee that the information was leaked on 7 600 conservative American taxpayers that information was was leaked on President Donald Trump we do know that we did not get down to it except for the efforts of the Republicans on this committee insisting that we find out and ask those questions
▶ 1:09:13I haven't heard any of my Democrat colleagues talk about the waste Fraud and Abuse that has been uncovered in a bad way they've said they've all supported it they said that they want that in what way the G GAO has not done that job we have not pressed them to do that job if they really want those things uncovered support the efforts that are making them uncovered but we haven't seen that what are the ideas no we're just hearing AC accusation a after accusation that has not been backed up
▶ 1:09:43I don't like the personal attacks I am here to do a job as I believe we all are I am looking at five strong bills that we need to have a conversation about that we need to have a markup can we please get back to the work of the American people and with that I yield back thank you Mr Horford thank you Mr chairman I move to strike the LA last word I ask uh for unanimous consent to enter into the record an article uh dated February 11th
▶ 1:10:142025 from The Washington Post uh treasury revoked editing access mistakenly given to Doge staffer um Mr chairman just to correct the record from my colleague from Texas in a 9 page affidavit the Deputy Commissioner of transformation and modernization at the treasury Department's Bureau of the fiscal service states that the Doge staffer Marco Elise was mistakenly given
▶ 1:10:45quote read write permissions unquote over part of the treasury Department's payment system responsible for dispersing trillion ions of dollars every year this is what was entered into the record by the official from the Trump Advance Administration it was not only and this is why this is so concerning this is the breach of
▶ 1:11:15taxpayer information it's not about President Trump it's not about Elon Musk it's about millions of Americans whose sensitive information Social information Bank information routing numbers medical information is now potentially disclosed so I agree the underlying bills are good bills but this is the crisis of the moment
▶ 1:11:45this is what my constituents and I know others are getting the same calls to their offices this is what they want to know what we're doing Mr chairman I also will note for the record it was an i IRS contractor not an employee that is why unelected uh hackers who are not employees are also threatening sensitive information of our constituents not not Republicans Or democrats
▶ 1:12:16or Independents these are all of our constituents so all of us should be concerned and we should want accountability now not later I don't understand how we would not make this the number one priority since it uh poses such a enormous risk so without objection Mr chairman I ask that that be entered into the record gentleman yield for a question I will yield to Mr dogget the contractor you mentioned uh who did engage in illegal
▶ 1:12:46conduct uh were is it correct that he is now in jail that is my understanding yes so there was some accountability there there for wrongdoing there doesn't appear to be any accountability for Mr musk and the Musketeers and with regard to uh the argument that records have been leaked previously uh from the IRS haven't those been uniformly condemned by the Democrats on this committee as well as the Republicans and urge that anyone who engaged in a violation of
▶ 1:13:176103 be prosecuted uh in accordance with the statute that's that's correct and we should treat that information as importantly for our constituents as we do for anyone else that is the ultimate risk here you believe that stolen privacy is every bit as critical for this committee to look into as stolen checks it is our Authority and our duty as members of this the gentleman yield I will yield to the R thank
▶ 1:13:47you so to to uh offer some uh information to the Gent lady from Texas every Democrat on this committee cond the release of those IRS documents that were leaked we didn't go to political ideology we condemned the release of those documents we condemned the release of the president's documents former president's documents at the time as well we were consistent on that idea this is legitimate inquiry into the issue of privacy and we need to all be on guard
▶ 1:14:17about it would the gentleman yield thank you I will yield my thank you it won it won't take me long but I just want to point out uh for the gentle lady from uh Texas that the individual that uh she talked about who violated the privacy of American taxpayers was a contractor and today he's in federal prison he received a 5year prison sentence he's serving
▶ 1:14:47time in federal prison for doing exactly what it is we're concerned that other people may be doing and as uh the ranking member pointed out every Democrat on this committee at the time condemned Mr Little John for what he had done a yeld back so I would agree Mr Little John is in federal prison for five years I along with members of this committee sent a letter to the judge um asking that he gets the full sentence of
▶ 1:15:17the law of five years what is so unfortunate and why we've passed legislation out of this committee and other bills is that there was millions of taxpayers information that was released and he was charged with one count he should have been charged with millions of counts uh and that is what we've clarified in the language and so I think that guy got it off pretty pretty good um Mr femra uh thank you Mr chair I yield my time to uh congresswoman
▶ 1:15:49VY thank thank you very much um you know I I I see that you all had written a letter for one example however I don't remember anybody supporting our effort to actually uncover more fraud more abuse of of power I don't remember anybody's on that side of the aisle supporting our whistleblower hotline but maybe I I'm mistaken I know that we're using as the crisis of the day at the crisis of the moment as our number one priority this example that someone was given read only access and it wasn't read only access it was also right for a moment but
▶ 1:16:19according to court filings the BFS used several cyber security tools to monitor Mr lzy a 25-year-old Doge employee usage of his BFS laptop at all times this number one crisis it was accidently given to him but the initial investigation confirmed that quote no unauthorized actions had taken place he never even knew that he briefly had such access and he never even used it so while
▶ 1:16:49I appreciate my colleagues concerns we can put that to rest as the number one crisis at the moment moment the problem is is that they sit here and they make all these claims that have yet to pan out what we do know is that fraud is being uncovered abuse and waste is being uncovered and we should all be happy about that because everybody that I've heard from in my district is thrilled that we are saving taxpayer dollars millions and billions of dollars and with that I yield back thank you Mr
▶ 1:17:19Larsson uh thank you Mr chairman good to be here and uh thank many of you for your uh uh time words over the last uh couple of days and I think it was Mr Smith's chairmanship that uh moved me on but uh uh I wanted um I'll be deferring uh some of my comments but uh our good colleague Bill pascol used to uh use these moments because it's hard to make sense you know especially watching uh the news on most of the day yesterday
▶ 1:17:49in C-SPAN he used to resort to uh poetry and uh I couldn't help but think listening here that um it looks like what used to be the Republican party is now the party of musk and so I guess it's appropriate for us to call you uh what they did in the day Musketeers and uh thought that uh I might say uh you know how on that show
▶ 1:18:20they used to say Misa Mousa Musketeers well uh Misa Masa Musketeers close your eyes and block ears don't act on concessional oversight simply because the mouse the musketeer has said it's not
▶ 1:18:50right he has unbridled access to our as well as our security and does so unchecked and with great impunity he feels that now he and Trump's next move is to disobey and ignore the courts so the American citizens have no other Resort
▶ 1:19:20and with that Mr chairman I yield my time to Mr Thompson i' like to thank the uh poet from Connecticut for yielding uh his time uh I I just want to comment on the Chairman's remarks regarding um Mr Little John and his five years in in prison I don't think Mr chairman you'd get any push back from this side of the dis on uh on that on the fact that he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
▶ 1:19:50law the law as you point out uh allows prosecution for every piece of paper that he released and we agreed that should be the case as a matter of fact we all supported your bill last year to expand on that punishment right now 6 103 uh uh the penalties for violating that for five years in prison which Mr Little John is serving in
▶ 1:20:21a h five a $10,000 uh fine we voted for your bill to expand that to 10 years in prison and $250,000 per violation and we still support that and we're ready to go forward uh with it and I don't want anybody to walk away from this hearing thinking that this side of the dis somehow uh Embraces waste
▶ 1:20:51Fraud and Abuse uh that's ludicrous uh every one of us uh are interested in faring out anything that falls into those categories to save the taxpayer money to make sure our government and our institution of representative government uh acts uh more efficiently and more effectively that's why you heard loud and clear from this side of the Das as to how disappointed and um and
▶ 1:21:21and and how unbelievable uh we found it that this President fired all the inspectors General um that that is just crazy these are the people who were able to point out the waste Fraud and Abuse bring it to us so this body can act and now they're gone he fired them why would you fire the Watchdogs of these particular uh agencies they need to be empowered to do their job
▶ 1:21:51and we as a congress need to uh act on their on on the work that they do to do our job and to provide that oversight and to Faire it out help far it out and stop any waste Fraud and Abuse uh that's out there we don't need to bring somebody in from the outside uh to help do this uh it's our job and we should be doing it with that I yield back the balance of my time additional members wish to strike the last word Sanchez
▶ 1:22:21thank you Mr Sherman I also want to take this opportunity to call out what we're seeing with Elon Musk and his doge Bros accessing treasury sensitive payment system and private tax returns why have a bunch of kids who aren't even legally old enough to rent a car been given access to American's most private and sensitive information the law is clear Congress enacted section 6103 of the Internal Revenue code to protect Americans personal information
▶ 1:22:52private tax returns of millions of Americans should not be in the hands of Elon musk's cronies especially those who have exhibited overt racism why that doesn't seem to bother that side of the aisle escapes me I mean it's a really disturbing fact yet I've heard not one of you disavow the fact that this individual who has clearly racist Tendencies had access and even though the court has halted must
▶ 1:23:23access for now we have no clue what was accessed for how long and what violations of SE section 6103 took place Democrats simply want transparency and we want answers we deserve answers we are the branch that is supposed to have oversight over the Executive Branch we don't serve the president we are a co-equal branch of government we want oversight we want hearings and investigations into this most
▶ 1:23:53egregious invasion of privacy Doge cannot have discretion over the treasury payment system to determine whether people get their Social Security checks or local governments get their Community block grants we've seen in recent weeks the absolute chaos fear and confusion the confusion caused by this administration's funding freezes which the courts have said are illegal an overreach of power we are outraged by this I don't
▶ 1:24:23understand why you guys don't don't seem to to find it troubling but we need some Republicans to stand up to show some spine and stand up for the rule of law we need you to stand up for the people that you are elected to serve Mr chairman just last Congress you led legislation to increase the penalties for Section 6103 violations we need your leadership today in keeping private taxpayer information secure you guys engage in this whataboutism
▶ 1:24:54and you want to apply section 6103 to the instances in which you find troubling but not the instances in which we find troubling we want it to apply equally to every situation where taxpayer information is compromised every situation not selective ones that benefit one side or the other every single taxpayer whose information may be breached and used unlawfully and with that I will yield the bounds of my time to Mr
▶ 1:25:24Horford thank you to the Gent lady for yielding uh I also want to raise the fact that yesterday in the oversight hearing one of the witnesses shared the fact that federal employee information from the office of personnel management is being matched with data files voting data files now there's only one reason to do that and it's to determine a person's political affiliation the American people people
▶ 1:25:54trust our nonpartisan civil service to meet their needs not Elon Musk or his hackers so I what I find appalling is that we are allowing this data breach and information which was unauthorized and illegally uh obtained to go unchecked what is the purpose of going in and accessing
▶ 1:26:24the information to begin with that has not been disclosed by these hackers or Elon Musk he spent 24 minutes in the Oval Office he didn't explain one of those uh reasons for why this data has been released the American people expect this Congress on both sides of the aisle to protect them not Elon Musk not his hackers but the millions of
▶ 1:26:54that we have taken an oath to represent this is a fundamental right that has been enforced reinforced Time and Again by previous congresses and administrations what we are currently experiencing is not functional government it's government dismemberment this is not normal and we should not have business as usual until we
▶ 1:27:27practices that meet the Constitutional requirements of the people that were elected to represent with that I yield back Mr Murphy thank you Mr chairman I'll just make this brief I just actually want to thank my Democratic colleagues because we didn't have to spend any money at NIH to discover this new disorder it's called MSD musk derangement syndrome so I I just want to thank thank them for that we saved a lot of Mone at NIH um we didn't have to do any of this and so
▶ 1:27:57um I'm actually going to be writing the the AMA so that this gets cataloged with a new diagnosis code immediately thank you Mr chairman additional members wish to strike the last word Judy Judy it's not funny yes I I yield to Moore that that was just not clever that must that was just not cute especially since I have the floor excuse
▶ 1:28:27me that's not funny since Elon Musk has decided to defund uh scientific research that that does upro that it is he does not have that Authority and I would think that as someone who got elected presumably you had to campaign you had to win you had to raise money that you would cherish Your Role to decide what we spend money on and what we don't
▶ 1:28:58and if you have an objection if Elon Musk and his team were to discover payments that they thought were inappropriate it's up to us to defund that initiative not Elon Musk and the Musketeers that's our job it's not that's not cute would you would you yield for a question sure so uh I I appreciate apprciate I appreciate everybody's concern about this I really do but
▶ 1:29:28so far our government hasn't worked we're $38 trillion in debt and it is excuse me okay I I I I reclaim my time I don't want to I don't want to hear about if we are in that much debt then I would admonish you for trying to find $4.6 trillion to give tax breaks to the wealthiest people in corporations that being said I am just calling you out you know as a physician and a doctor is someone who apparently
▶ 1:29:59supports an unelected N national uh naturalized citizen from South Africa deciding that scientific research is not important and so he'll just NX it or someone who's decided that you know with the president that foreign aid is not important that is our job that's why I'm here I'm not here primarily to debate you what the debate should be when the de when the Appropriations
▶ 1:30:30have been made when they've been signed into law the debate is over and it is not up to Elon Musk to decide who gets paid and who does not get pay I'll yield back to Miss Chu I yield back are there additional me members that wish to strike the last word seeing none we will move to amendments are there amendments Mr Thompson thank you Mr chairman I have an amendment at the
▶ 1:31:00desk Mr chairman I reserve a point of order a point of order has been reserved would the gentleman suspend while the amendment is distributed of course thank you waiting for this
▶ 1:31:32gentlemen proceed thank you Mr chairman on behalf of myself and Miss Chu uh this amendment would ensure that this bill would not take effect unless the treasury uh secretary certifies that a plan is in place to ensure that everyone who has access to taxpayer data is lawfully author authorized to access the data have a reliable track record of Professional Service possesses the necessary clearances
▶ 1:32:02to access that dat those data made an Ethics commitment that they have no conflicts of interest and have appropriate cyber security training my constituents are terrified that their personal data is in the hands of an unelected billionaire with no oversight nor guarantee their data is secure as we discussed yesterday at the oversight hearing Democrats want to work with Republicans to improve government
▶ 1:32:32efficiency and modernization including at the IRS this amendment would provide the desperately needed Comfort our constituents are seeking ensuring their data are not being misused I yield the remainder of my time to Miss Chu thank you Mr Thompson last Congress the chairman had a bill that would increase the criminal penalties for violations of section
▶ 1:33:036103 and we supported it unanimously we had a bipartisan agreement that taxpayers confidential information should never be accessed published or downloaded by unauthorized parties and yet today less than 2 years later Republicans are holding a markup that completely ignores the unprecedent violation of section
▶ 1:33:336103 that is a result of Elon musk's so-called Doge and its access to the treasury Department's most sensitive system billionaire Elon Musk was not elected he was not confirmed by the Senate and his team of unvetted morally questionable if not reprehensive ible lackies are not accountable to the public yet they were granted access to the Treasury System that processes tax refunds
▶ 1:34:04Social Security benefits and trillions of dollars in payments each year despite committee Democrats asking Treasury and the IRS for an accounting of doa's access to and the use of this confidential information we've not heard directly from Administration or officials or from Elon Musk and we have responsibility to ensure that our constituents private information is kept safe
▶ 1:34:34in compliance with the law our Amendment would direct the treasury secretary before this bill goes into effect to certify to Congress that this information is kept confidential and is only accessible to authorized government officials and this is just a start I hope that our Republican colleagues will immediately schedule a markup for HR 1101 the taxpayer data protection act house Democrats Bill to prohibit
▶ 1:35:04unlawful access to the treasury's payment system and end doa's illegal intrusion into our constituents data so that our constituents can rest easily now after being shocked by this invasion of privacy I urge my colleagues to support this amendment and I yield
▶ 1:35:35know Mr Buchanan Mr chairman I insist on my point of order the gentleman has raised a point of order um Mr chair chairman I made a point of of order to the amendment because it's not gerine to the amendment in the nature of a sub substitute the amendment violates house rule 16 Clause
▶ 1:36:057 does the gentleman wish to be heard on the point of order Mr Johnson I I don't um I can't comprehend why this would be uh non- gerine I mean this is addresses specifically the issue that we've been talking about all morning and that's protection uh and integrity of security in regard to the most important U uh information uh of that t that the people that we represent have uh so to rule it non gerain
▶ 1:36:35is is uh I think uh uh off point and I would challenge uh that uh ruling if the gentleman's not willing to withdraw the amendment the chair rules that the amendment is not gerain if it makes the effectiveness of a bill contingent upon on an unrelated event or determination the subject matter of this bill is related to electronic payments made by the treasury I ask for a roll
▶ 1:37:11vote appeal the ruling of the chair you appeal the decision of the chair chairman I move the table appeal the clerk will call the role Mr Buchanan yes Mr banan yes Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr Le Hood Mr Le Hood
▶ 1:37:41yes Mr Arrington Mr Estus Mr Estus yes Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Mrs Miller yes Dr Murphy Dr Murphy yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr
▶ 1:38:12Fitzpatrick yes Mr stuie Miss Tenny Miss Tenny yes Mrs Mrs fishbach yes Mr Moore Mr Moore yes Miss vany Miss vany yes Mr finra Mr finstra yes Miss malot Takis Miss malot Takis yes
▶ 1:38:42Mr Cary Mr Cary yes Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes yes Mr Bean Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr Neil no Mr Neil no Mr dogget no Mr dogget no Mr Thompson no Mr Thompson no
▶ 1:39:13Mr Larsson Mr lson no Mr Davis Mr Davis no Miss Sanchez no Miss Sanchez no Su Miss do Ben Miss do no Miss Chu no Miss Chu no Miss Moore Miss Moore no Mr Bole
▶ 1:39:43Mr berer no Mr Byer no Mr Evans no Mr Evans no Mr Schneider Mr Schneider no Mr Panetta Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford no Miss plaset Miss plaset no Mr
▶ 1:40:18swazi Mr Kelly Mr aring inton Mr Arrington yes Mr stuie Miss Su no Miss Su no
▶ 1:40:49Mr Bole Panetta Mr Gomez Mr swasi no Mr swasi no chairman Smith yes chairman Smith yes
▶ 1:41:31the clerk will report the vote the yeses are 24 the NOS are 16 there being 24 yeses and 16 NOS the the the appeal is tabled are there further would the lady
▶ 1:42:02suspend Mr chairman I reserve a point of order a point of order has been reserved with the lady
▶ 1:42:35proceed thank you so much Mr chairman and what you have um before you is an amendment that would provide that provisions of this act are would not be effective unless the Secretary of the Treasury certifies that a plan has been put into place to ensure that the treasury Inspector General has unfettered access to monitor all activities within the Bureau of fiscal service for purposes of ensuring strict compliance with the order
▶ 1:43:06of the United States District Court of the District of Colombia issued on February 6 2025 Mr chairman the reason that this amendment was necessary is because the underlying provisions of this bill are to ensure that the robbers that steal people's checks are unable to do it but the robber barons are at the door within the treasury Department
▶ 1:43:36uh if we look at a timeline of activities we saw literally Doge employees push treasury employees aside push them out of their seats and demand access and at that point with the read writeability to access the treasury Department files so the court of the District of Columbia issued um a ruling on February 6 2025
▶ 1:44:07and so far the courts have been this institution's and the Public's only defense against the wealthiest people in the world just taking over our $6 trillion Treasury and but for the ruling of the court of the District of Colombia we would have no defense whatsoever well we've been told by Elon Musk richest man in the world
▶ 1:44:37and vice president Vance A a member presumably of the bar that they just don't have to listen to the court that they they could just you know bypass the last defense that we have against Elon Musk deciding which payments he will make which payments he will not make and perhaps even which payments will be upped and increased based on their discretion
▶ 1:45:08so the only thing that this bill does is provide the Inspector General with access to his job all this does is reiterate the importance of the inspector General's job that he monitor the activities to make sure that they're in compliance with the court order now you know that should be something that everybody in article
▶ 1:45:39one is concerned with you know if we don't have any standing in court as members of Congress to protect our voted upon agreed upon uh Appropriations our only line of defense then is the court and if the courts and if the richest man in the world can just decide that we're not going to follow the court order again then the Rober Barons are at the door
▶ 1:46:09I mean this is a couet as it were and so I would urge all of the members to join me in empowering the Inspector General to do his job and with that I would yield I would back Mr Buchanan Mr chairman I insist on my point of order
▶ 1:46:39the amendment is not gerain the chair is prepared to rule on the point of orderes the Gent does the lady want to respond yeah I appeal you can't pill until I make it but I know what you're going to do sir yeah you know what I'm going to do and we both know the end result so do you yield well I do you wish to be yield on the point of order yes I I I would like to hear what the what the uh I would like to hear your
▶ 1:47:10ruling okay so you're yielding yes okay so I am prepared to rule the amendment is not ger main to the amendment in the nature of a substitute because it violates house rule 16 Clause 7 because the effectiveness is contingent on an unrelated event or determination the point of order is sustained and the amendment is not in order Mr chairman I would vigorously appeal the ruling of the chair Mr Buchanan Mr chairman
▶ 1:47:40I moved to table the appeal I didn't see that coming um the clerk will call the role Mr banan yes Mr banan yes Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Kelly Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr Le Hood Mr Arrington Mr Estus
▶ 1:48:11Mr Estus yes Mr smucker Mr Hearn yes Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Mrs Miller yes Dr Murphy Dr Murphy yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr
▶ 1:48:41Stuy Miss Tenny Miss Tenny yes Mrs fishbo Mrs fishbach yes Mr Moore Mr Moore yes yes Miss vany Miss vany yes Mr finra Mr finra yes Miss motakis Miss malot Takis yes Mr Cary Mr Cary yes Mr yakum yes
▶ 1:49:11Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes Mr Bean yes Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr Neil Mr Neil no Mr doit Mr doet no Mr Thompson Mr Thompson no Mr Larson no Mr Larsson no Mr Davis no Mr Davis no
▶ 1:49:42Miss Sanchez no Miss Sanchez no Miss Su no Miss no Miss do no Miss Del no Miss Chu no Miss Chu no Miss Moore no Miss Moore no Mr Bole no Mr berer no Mr Byer no Mr Evans no
▶ 1:50:13Mr Evans no Mr Schneider no Mr Schneider no Mr Panetta Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford no Miss plaset no Miss plaset no Mr swazi Mr swazi no Mr Kelly Mr L
▶ 1:50:45Hood Mr L Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Arrington yes Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr stuby Mr Bole
▶ 1:51:15Mr Panetta Mr Gomez chairman Smith yes chairman Smith yes Mr Panetta Mr Panetta no
▶ 1:51:57the clerk will will report the vote the yeses are 24 the NOS are 17 there they're being 24 yeses and 17 NOS the amendment is not agreed to the appe is the appeal is tabled are there amendments Mr Mr Brier Mr chairman I have an amendment at the desk Mr chairman I reserve appoint point of order gentleman reserves a point of order gentleman suspend the gentleman
▶ 1:52:27will suspend on the amendment while it is distributed
▶ 1:53:02I have okay the gentleman May proceed Mr chairman thank you very much Mr chairman this is a very straightforward amendment
▶ 1:53:33that addresses the concerns we've heard all through the morning and I think addresses the concerns we heard when uh the Democrats were in charge of the White House and the Department of Treasury for my Republican friends and the ones that we express right now that it simply says that the provisions of this act aren't effective unless the Secretary of the Treasury way to remind you will be a republican certifies that a plan has been put in place ensure that all individuals who have access to Social Security information have lawful authorization to access this data
▶ 1:54:03have a reliable track record or Professional Service have the necessary security clearances have made an eics commitment have no conflicts of interest and have the appropriate cyber security training this is the kind of thing that should apply to all secretaries Democratic or republican in the years to come and I think it could be seen and should be seen as a by partisan friendly Amendment we use and with that I yield back to you sir the gentleman yields back no no
▶ 1:54:33does the gentleman intend to withdraw his am does the gentleman intend to withdraw his Amendment Mr chairman in the interest of not only saving time but also avoiding a probably non-er made decision that I would strongly disagree with yes I would agree to withdraw okay the withdraws his Amendment are there additional amendments Mr Schneider um thank you Mr chairman I'd like to offer an amendment today
▶ 1:55:03to ensure our constituents private confidential data remains private Mr chairman I reserve a point of order gentleman reserves a point of order please with gentleman from Illinois suspend while the amendment is distributed for
▶ 1:56:22the gentleman is recognized Mr Schneider uh thank you Mr chairman uh and like my colleagues before me with amendments uh trying to protect taxpayer data I support the underlying Bill and our bipartisan efforts here today to simplify and improve taxpayers experience with the IRS as a whole however we have to be honest in the face of direct threats from Alan musk Musketeers in the face of Silence from my Republican colleagues on this Committee of his his overreach
▶ 1:56:53I am compelled to introduce this amendment today to try to protect taxpayers private and confidential information my Amendment today is simple it would require that the treasury secretary certify that only trusted government employees with sufficient training and security clearances have signed a written ethics agreement only these people would have access to taxpayer health insurance information information on medical expenditures and information regarding health savings
▶ 1:57:23accounts let me be clear Puppet Master musk nor any of his Musketeers should have access to America's most sensitive confidential health information and I shudder to think why they might want to have access to this information in the first place other than the very real possibility that Mr musk the richest man in the world who owns one of the most significant influential social media platforms could try to benefit and profit from this data
▶ 1:57:54it's not the place of Alon musk nor the president nor anyone in the executive branch to to determine who or who is not deserving deserving of health insurance disability benefits or retirement benefits Congress this body is the sole holder of authority to determine how and where federal dollars are SP spent for Puppet Master Walt musk to waltz in and try to unilaterally halt payments to programs or entire
▶ 1:58:24agencies he dislikes is a constitutional crisis of the highest order I would hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle can see would see the direct threat this poses to our democracy our constituents who elected us to serve in this co-equal Branch as defined in our constitution certainly did not do so with the expectation that we would we would hand over our constitutional duties our prerogatives our responsibilities
▶ 1:58:54to Puppet Master Alon musk if my Republican colleagues truly believe that Mr musk and his doge Musketeers pose no threat as their silence on this matter would indicate then I see no reason why they should not join me in supporting this Common Sense amendment to ensure their constituents privacy is protected thank you Mr chair and I urge my colleagues to support this amendment and with that I yield back gentleman yields back does a gentleman wish to withdraw his amendment is
▶ 1:59:25there going to be a claim that this amendment is not ger main does the gentleman wish to avoid a predictable outcome well it is clear and with all the Musketeers running around maybe it is such that we have this circus I will withdraw the amendment gentleman withdraws the amendment are there additional amendments yes Mr chairman uh I offer a Germaine Amendment Mr chairman I reserve a point of order gentleman reserves a point of order Mr swazi would suspend
▶ 1:59:55while the amendment is distributed for
▶ 2:01:00the gentleman May proceed thank you Mr chairman uh again I offer a Germaine amendment that I do not intend to withdraw because I really want to get everybody's vote on the record on this one so this amendment is the taxpayer data protection act which increases criminal penalties for unauthorized disclosure of taxpayer information it will increase the maximum Penal PTY from $5,000 fine or 5 years in jail time to a $250,000 fine or a 10 years jail time this will seem familiar
▶ 2:01:30to many members of this committee because in fact this amendment is the exact same bill that the other chairman Smith uh offered last Congress now as we've heard here today we're not really sure what Mr musk and his team are doing yet but many of us are concerned about the possible unauthorized disclosure of taxpayer information as mentioned my Amendment will increase the criminal penal penalties for such unauthorized
▶ 2:02:00disclosure let me quote from our esteemed chairman Jason Smith from September 17 2024 press release stating quote increasing the punishment for this crime will result in better deterrence for potential criminals and fewer crimes of this sort being committed close quote when chairman Smith marked up this exact same bill on May 15 of 2024 he said the following and I quote him 100% quote
▶ 2:02:31the bill before us today sponsored by every Republican member on this committee helps ensure Bad actors are prevented from stealing and disclosing taxpayer information Americans file their tax returns every year with the expectation that their data and personal tax information are protected and secur cure from unlawful disclosure close quote he further stated quote it's up to the members of the chief tax writing Committee in Congress
▶ 2:03:02to protect the public trust and to secure private taxpayer information again in chairman Smith's words I urge all my colleagues to support this legislation and send a clear message that Congress will not tolerate criminal leaks of taxpayer information close quote in fact chairman Jason Smith was incredibly persuasive as not only every Republican but every Democrat save one on this committee voted in favor of the bill and it was
▶ 2:03:32unanimously supported on the house floor I further want to request that chairman Smith and the Republican members of this committee as well as my Democratic colleagues all co-sign a letter with me that mimics the exact language from chairman Smith to treasury Inspector General for tax administration on February 16th 2023 quote this is from chairman Smith and I'm going to be mimicking the exact same language and I would like everybody to please join me I request that the treasury Inspector
▶ 2:04:02General for tax administration commit in writing that it will complete the following actions one conduct a comprehensive And Timely investigation two produce a report that summarizes their investigation with findings and recommendations three provide me with a full copy of the unredacted report rep four make as much of the report public as possible consistent with 26 USC 6103 until an investigation and Report are complete
▶ 2:04:32I request that the taxpayer Inspector General for tax administration provide designated members of my staff with regular updates about the status of the investigation close quote Mr chairman I would argue that my Amendment that's been been supported by you Mr chairman as well as chairman Smith ranking member Neil and dozens of members of this committee is in fact Germain because violations of taxpayer privacy throw into question the entire safety of our in tax
▶ 2:05:02collection and refund system which is the point of this bill refunds that are made to taxpayers and whether or not they're being stolen as miss motakis and miss Su have made clear in their excellent Bill taxpayers cannot trust their refunds such as those referenced in the malakasa bill or the entire IRS system if their private data has been compromised by unauthorized ACC access therefore we must impose penalties appropriate to ensure taxpayer data privacy
▶ 2:05:33as has been supported by this committee and chairman Jason Smith on a previous occasion thank you Mr chairman Mr banon is recognized Mr chairman I insist on my point of order the amendment is not Germain so can we debate that gentle does a gentleman wish to be heard on the point point of order yes I do gentleman's recognized so the bill that's before us right now by members motakis and Su are about refunds
▶ 2:06:03from the IRS and those checks being stolen and it requires that people when getting their refunds and when having them sent to them are can trust the IRS that it's in fact doing things properly and it's be hard if someone's for example Bank data had been compromised by an unauthorized uh use of that bank data to trust that their bank accounts not being manipulated when they get a direct deposit to their bank account for a
▶ 2:06:33refund sent to them for example there are other many other examples that we could enumerate but I think that this is clearly Germaine because it goes to the credibility of the IRS and the release of people's private data thank you Mr chairman I yield back gentleman yields back I am prepared to rule the amendment is not Germain to the amendment in the nature of a substitute because it violates house rule 16 Clause 7 by exceeding the subject matter of the measure under consideration the point of order is sustained the amendment is not in order
▶ 2:07:03I am shocked Mr Neil I'd like to challenge the ruling of the chair Mr Neil challenges the ruling of the chair Mr Buchanan Mr chairman I move the to table the appeal Mr banan moves to table the appeal the clerk will call the role banan yes Mr banan yes Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly
▶ 2:07:34Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr L Hood Mr L Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Arrington yes Mr Estus Mr Estus yes Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Mrs Miller yes Dr Murphy Dr Murphy
▶ 2:08:04yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr stuie Miss tinny Miss tinny yes Mrs fishbach Mr Moore yes Mr Moore yes Miss vany Miss vany yes Mr finra
▶ 2:08:35Mr finstra yes Miss malot Takis Miss malot Takis yes Mr Cary Mr Cary yes Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller yes Mr Miller yes Mr Bean Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr Neil Mr Neil no Mr doet Mr
▶ 2:09:05dogget no Mr Thompson Mr Thompson no Mr Larsson Mr Larson no Mr Davis Mr Davis no Miss Su Miss Su no Miss Del Miss Del no Miss Chu Miss Chu no Miss Moore
▶ 2:09:36no Miss Moore no Mr Bole Mr Bole no Mr berer Mr berer no Mr Evans no Mr Evans no Mr Schneider Mr schneid rer no Mr Panetta Mr Panetta no Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford no Miss plaset
▶ 2:10:06Miss plaset no Mr swasi Mr swazi no how is Miss Sanchez recorded Miss Sanchez is not recorded Sanz no Miss Sanchez no Mr Kelly Mr stubby Mrs
▶ 2:10:37fishbach Mrs fishbach yes Mr Gomez chairman Smith chairman Smith yes
▶ 2:11:29clerk will call the rooll the yeses are 24 the NOS are 18 the appeal is tabled are there further amendments there are no further amendments the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute all those in favor sign signify by saying yes yes those oppose no
▶ 2:11:59in the opinion of the chair the yeses have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to I'll now recognize Mr Buchanan for the purpose of offering a motion Mr chairman I move the committee favorably report HR 1155 as amended the House of Representatives question is on the motion to favorably report HR 1155 as amended to the house of Representatives the clerk will call the role Mr banan yes Mr banan yes Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr
▶ 2:12:30Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr Le Hood Mr Le Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Arrington yes Mr Estus Mr Estus yes Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Mrs Miller yes Dr Murphy Dr Murphy
▶ 2:13:00yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr stuie Miss tinny Miss Tenny yes Mrs Moore Mr Moore yes Miss vany Miss vany yes
▶ 2:13:31Mr finstra Mr finstra yes Miss Malia Takis Miss Malia takas yes Mr Cary Mr Cary yes Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes Mr Bean Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr Neil Mr Neil yes Mr doet Mr dogget
▶ 2:14:01yes Mr Thompson Mr Thompson yes Mr Larson Mr Larson yes Mr Davis Mr Davis yes Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez yes yes Miss Su Miss Su yes Miss Del Ben Miss Del Ben yes Miss Chu Miss Chu yes
▶ 2:14:31Miss Moore Miss Moore yes Mr Bole Mr Bole yes Mr Byer Mr Byer yes Mr Evans Mr Schneider Mr Schneider yes Mr Panetta Mr Panetta yes Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford yes Miss plaset
▶ 2:15:02yes Miss plaset yes Mr swazi yes Mr swazi yes Mr stuie
▶ 2:15:37fishbach Mr Evans Mr Gomez chairman Smith chairman Smith yes
▶ 2:16:51the clerk will report the vote how is Mr Evans recorded my apologies Mr Evans is not recorded Mr Evans yes how was Mr swazi recorded Mr swazi is yes
▶ 2:17:49your for
▶ 2:18:26the clerk will report the vote the yeses are 41 the NOS are zero there being 41 yeses and zero NOS the motion is agreed to and HR 1155 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the house without objection I ask that staff be authorized to make Technical and and conforming changes to HR 1155 the members have two additional days to file with committee clerk supplemental additional descending or minority
▶ 2:19:00views HR 997 The National taxpayer Advocate enhancement Act of 2025 our next piece of legislation is the national taxpayer Advocate enhancement Act of 2025 sponsored by representative finstra and Davis this bill clarifies that the national taxpayer Advocate has the authority to make independent Personnel decisions including hiring attorneys who work directly for her I appreciate representatives fster and Davis for maintaining a bipartisan commitment to keeping up the drum beat on this Common Sense
▶ 2:19:30legislation having introduced it last Congress by the chairman Smith uh in a congress as well as making it a priority at the start of this this Congress and now recognize the gentleman from Iowa Mr finstra for the purposes of an opening statement thank you chairman I also want to thank colleague Danny Dave Congressman Danny Davis is for for helping and co-leading this bill we've seen in recent years exactly how important oversight is of the IRS and how our constituents often rely on the help
▶ 2:20:01with their filing problems fortunately we have a national taxpayer Advocate to help with both of these issues this crucial role they play applies to both we and DC and to our constituents back in the district in Washington the national taxpayers Advocate provides critical oversight of the inner workings of the IRS and makes recommendations to Congress on how to improve it in our districts a taxpayer Advocate helps taxpayers with the complicated problems that can arise
▶ 2:20:31during the tax filing process and our own case workers often rely on their help as they work with our constituents unfortunately the national taxpayer Advocate does not currently have the author authority to hire their own legal counsel despite the taxpayer Advocate conducting oversight over the IRS s it is up to the chief counsel of the Department of Treasury and the IRS and the agency it overseas to select the Lo lawyers for the national taxpayer Advocate
▶ 2:21:02this is a complete conflict of interest as an oversight body the national taxpayer Advocate should have Independence in selecting their legal staff they hire to conduct the oversight to the IRS this bill the national taxpayer Advocate enhancement act will simply make that clarification that National taxpayer Advocate has the authority to select their own legal counsel it's time we give the national taxpayer Advocate The Authority they need to do their job and thank you
▶ 2:21:32with that I yield back gentleman yields back now I now recognize ranking member from Massachusetts Massachusetts Mr Neil for thank you chairman uh let me yield my time to the gentleman from Illinois Mr Davis Mr Davis is recognized thank you Mr chairman and thank you Mr NE Mr chairman I'm pleased to lead the national taxpayer Advocate enhancement act with my colleague representative pinu from Iowa the national taxpayer
▶ 2:22:02Advocate is the independent Advocate working to assist taxpayers I'm deeply grateful to her and her amazing team for the outstanding work to identify tax policy improvements to help taxpayers at large and for their work to help individual taxpayers when they need assistance with a specific problem the bill makes a small but important statutory
▶ 2:22:34clarification that the national taxpayer Advocate May appoint and supervise her own legal counsel rather than only use an attorneys that report to the IRS Chief counsel being able able to appoint independent councel is an essential step to preserving the independence of the national taxpayer advocate office as required under Section 7803 C
▶ 2:23:05of the Internal Revenue code given her independent role the national taxpayer Advocate often takes positions contrary to the position of the IRS and the office of ch Chief counsel as a result the national taxpayer Advocate needs her own independent councel to advise and adopt legal positions so she can effectively
▶ 2:23:35advocate for taxpayers and to advise Congress although Senator gradley publicly stated that the 1998 reorganization of the IRS should have her own own legal councel and although the conference report for that law stated that conferees intended that the national taxpayer Advocate be able to appoint independent counsel
▶ 2:24:05and although the statute does not B the national taxpayer Advocate from appointing her own counsil and although the Internal Revenue Service general counsel allowed the appointment of independent counsels until 2015 the IRS general counsel now maintains that statutory language is necessary so I am pleased that the
▶ 2:24:35committee is marking up the national taxpayer Advocate enhancement act today to protect the independence of the national taxpayer Advocate and I hope this bipartisan effort will extend to dealing with the threats of data privacy that the treasury and the internal revenue currently are experienced I thank you Mr chairman and yeld back the balance
▶ 2:25:06of the Time gentleman yields back the balance of his time the committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 997 The National taxpayer Advocate enhancement Act of 2025 without objection the measure will be considered as read and open for Amendment at any point at this time I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with the Green Sheet explaining it without objection the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read open for Amendment at any point and considered base text for purpose
▶ 2:25:36of amendment I'll now turn to Tom barthold chief of staff for the joint committee on taxation to provide the technical description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction I ask that members hold their questions until after Mr bold's presentation thank you Mr chairman the members of the committee have before them two joint committee documents jcx 2-25 and jcx 6-25 which describe the underlying
▶ 2:26:06legislation and the Chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute this legislation authorizes the national taxpayer Advocate to appoint legal counsel within the office of the taxpayer Advocate who will report directly to the national taxpayer Advocate uh the Chairman's n amendment in nature of a substitute replaces a singular word Amendment with the plural amendments to make the statute read corre correctly and this legislation would be effective
▶ 2:26:37as if part of the Internal Revenue Service restructuring and Reform Act of 1998 which was enacted July 22nd of 1998 the staff of the joint committee on taxation has estimated that this would would have no effect no Revenue effect on federal receipts that uh concludes my brief uh review of this legislation I'd be happy to answer any questions that the members might have thank you are there any technical questions about the amendment in the nature of the
▶ 2:27:08substitute seeing none does anyone wish to strike the last word Mr dogget is recognized thank you Mr chairman I support this bill to assure that the national tax faay Advocate does have sufficient legal staff to assist those who've been harmed in some way by F faulty IRS practices are poor Administration uh The Advocate offers personalized assistance to resolve cases with the IRS and identify systemic problems in
▶ 2:27:38IR IRS Administration I think Americans certainly deserve these protections unfortunately Republicans on our committee have not shown a similar interest in protecting taxpayers with strong independent Watchdogs the inspector's General in a true Friday night Massacre Trump fired 17 highly qualified professionals because he didn't want nonpartisan independent judgments and the accountability that that would bring
▶ 2:28:09and just yesterday one of the inspector generals that he had not fired got special attention what was it that this Inspector General did to earn firing well the Inspector General had the audacity to indicate as a result of Trump's unlawful actions half billion dollars worth of food assistance was rotting on the uh shipping docks actually I think the rot in our government goes far beyond shipping
▶ 2:28:39Docks but we also know that on Monday of this week president Trump fired the head of the government ethics office the person responsible for identifying conflicts of interests like those that Elon Musk might have and other ethics violations issues that Trump trust the musk and the Musketeers to self-report even when they receive new multi-million dollar contracts it's much easier for Trump and his gang to violate the law when there
▶ 2:29:09aren't any lap dogs there aren any ethics review uh and when we have lap do dogs instead of Watchdogs Trump has given musk seemingly unfettered access to Americans most sensitive data we've reviewed the $5 trillion in payments that go out uh that they have access to and coding control over apparently the threat extends though Beyond this day-to-day operation and the payments and the privacy of Americans
▶ 2:29:40that we've discussed to this point because this weekend Trump caused momentary panic when he proclaimed Doge or Dodge as I believe it's more accurate had found irregularities in US treasuries thus Trump the self-proclaimed king of debt suggested that the treasury might default uh as he has done so many times with his own misrun businesses on the obligations that our nation has to those who barred money uh threatening the full faith and credit of the United States
▶ 2:30:10and the economic disruption inflation and massive price increases that could occur as a result of federal default the White House of course ly tried to walk back his statements as they so often have to do now we got a report this morning as the committee was meeting that inflation is up once again prices are up I reflect on the fact that back in August president Trump told us that starting on day one we will end inflation and make America
▶ 2:30:41affordable again to bring down the prices of all goods and on August the 14th he said starting the day I take the oath I will rapidly Drive prices down and we will make American a America affordable again we're going to make it affordable again and then on January the 7th he said we're going to have prices down I think you're going to see some pretty drastic price reductions well I believe all of us wish him well on that and we're waiting for the results
▶ 2:31:12and I would say that if Elon Musk is so smart and able and able to identify these problems in in Jordan or in Peru how about assigning him the job since the president is unable to do it on his own to bring those prices way down in Austin or Boston or anywhere else in this country because I think Americans want the president to fulfill his thus far broken promise to bring those prices way down and we haven't been hearing much of anything about that instead we've been diverted to
▶ 2:31:42Panama and Greenland and half of Gaza all around the world but not in the pocketbooks of consumers one of the other key functions of the Bureau of fiscal service is managing payments on the debt and the Very patriotic 35-year-old nonpartisan veteran who they pushed aside the guardian of privacy is also responsible for taking the measures to avoid a default the Extraordinary Measures to avoid default on the debt
▶ 2:32:13as a result of he his being displaced we may face an even quicker uh default on our death than we previously had hoped for today's markup should be about a legislation to ban musk and the Musketeers from accessing our government systems we should have been having hearings about the damage they've already done that accountability is what's missing I yield back is anyone else wish to strike the last word Miss Moore thank you so much and let me just
▶ 2:32:43thank Mr finstra and Mr Davis for offering uh this bill would which would or should or Coulda a have provided consumers with much more protection I guess the real question that I have is what good is it going to do for the um for the cons for for them to have this the the taxpayer ad Advocate
▶ 2:33:14to have private counsel when the agency the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau which is a much larger agency that has been a consumer Advocate uh for uh for the country and has a purview over Banks and tech companies when their power has been stripped we do know that Elon Musk aspires to launch a um Financial
▶ 2:33:44app called I guess X money uh and it's uh it would allow millions of users on X to instantly send money and and do sort of the things that we see cash app and zel doing and apple doing problem is is that the cfpb uh has provided extens extensive oversight in these countries and has in fact
▶ 2:34:15finded apple and cash app and zel uh and meta uh with incursions of the law and of course this has caught Elon musk's attention and so what did he do he just basically decided that the cfpb needed to be shut down and told that they to desist from doing any more work so uh while this may be a very good initiative
▶ 2:34:46Mr Fincher and Mr Davis for empowering the taxpayer Advocate uh on the one hand uh uh on the other hand the cfpb uh is being dismantled and being taken down so while we'll get a little bit of relief with regard to this to this uh on the other end of the scale the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau uh is being dismantled I guess the other question that I
▶ 2:35:16would ask of Mr Davis and Mr fster uh is uh the the the new powers that will be provided uh to this private Council for the taxpayer ad Advocate um we've been told by the Vice President of the United States and also Mr musk that they could not listen to court orders so whatever
▶ 2:35:46is the point in providing private counsel when whatever sort of of litigation a taxpayer Advocate might put together uh uh is it's been decided that they don't even have to follow the law and so what I would say again to my colleagues here to my Republican colleagues um is that this is an American issue the taxpayer
▶ 2:36:17Advocate works for both Democrat rats and Republicans but what I am saying is that all of your Republicans constituents and your Democratic constituents are not going to be served even once we pass this bill and I choose I'm going to vote for this bill but what I am saying is that it will be moot in this uh environment where the Consumer Financial
▶ 2:36:47Protection Bureau has been decimated and dismantled and in an environment where Mr musk has basically uh uh uh he and the vice president of the United States have shared with the president that they don't even have to follow court orders so it's much ad do about nothing and I would yield back the balance of my time my colleague yields back are
▶ 2:37:17there others wishing to strike the last word thank you are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute seeing none the question is on agreeing to the amendment oh excuse um there are no additional amendments the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute all those in favor signify signify by yes those oppos no
▶ 2:37:48in opinion of the chair the yes is have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to I will now recognize Mr banan for the purpose of offering a motion Mr chairman I move the committee favorably report HR 997 as amended to the House of Representatives question is on the motion to favorably report HR 997 as Amendment as amended to the House of Representatives the clerk will call the role Mr beanan
▶ 2:38:18yes Mr Canon yes Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly Mr schwier Mr L Hood Mr Arrington
▶ 2:39:01Estus Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Mrs Miller yes Dr Murphy Dr Murphy yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr stuie
▶ 2:39:32Mr stuie yes Miss tinny Miss tinny yes Mrs fishbach Mrs fishbach yes Mr Moore Mr Moore yes Miss vany Miss vany yes Mr finra Mr finra yes Miss malot Takis Miss malot Takis
▶ 2:40:03yes Mr kryy Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes Mr Bean yes yes Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr Neil Mr Neil yes Mr doet Mr doet
▶ 2:40:33yes Mr Thompson Mr Thompson yes Mr Larsson Mr Larson yes Mr Davis Mr Davis yes Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez yes yes Miss Miss yes M Ben miss Ben yes Miss Chu Miss Chu yes Miss Moore Miss Moore
▶ 2:41:04yes Mr Bole Mr Bole yes Mr berer Mr berer yes Mr Evans Mr Evans yes Mr Schneider Mr Schneider yes yes Mr Panetta Mr Panetta yes Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford yes Miss plaset yes Miss plaset yes
▶ 2:41:34Mr swazi Mr swazi yes Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr L Hood Mr L Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Estus yes Mr Estus
▶ 2:42:07yes Mr carry Gomez chairman Smith chairman Smith yes
▶ 2:43:15how is Mr Arrington recorded Mr Arrington is not recorded yes Mr Arrington yes how is Mr Cary recorded Mr Cary is not recorded Mr Cary yes the clerk will will report the vote the yeses are 43 the NOS are zero there being 43
▶ 2:43:45yeses and zero NOS the motion is agreed to and H R 997 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the house without objection I ask that staff be authorized to make Technical and conforming changes to HR 997 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views our next item is the Internal Revenue Service math and taxpayer help act sponsored by representatives fenr and Schneider too often taxpayers receive notices from the
▶ 2:44:15IRS that propose adjustments to their tax liability due to math errors unfortunately these notices fail to explain the error or the fact that taxpayers have a legal right to dispute the adjustment within 6 days this legislation is an important step to simplify Tax Administration and make the IRS more accountable to taxpayers by requiring the IRS to explain any math errors to the taxpayer and gives them 60 days to correct the issue I want to thank representatives fster and Schneider for their bipartisan effort
▶ 2:44:45to deliver transparency and better protection for American taxpayers I now I now recognize the gentleman from Iowa for the purposes of an opening statement fenstra thank you Mr chairman I also want to thank uh the co-lead congressman Schneider for helping me with this Bill thank you very much the IRS sends millions of math error notices every year when a taxpayer accidentally has an error in their tax filing such as adding a zero at the end of a number or doing other things
▶ 2:45:16however these notices are meant to inform the tax payer of an error they often just create more confusion for example they do not inform the taxpayer what the error was the reason for the adjustment and that a response must be sent within 60 days just think about that if they don't get it in 60 days they forfeit the opportunity to dispute the error adjustment this is just bad customer service and Americans deserve better navigating taxis and is already enough is a very tough burden for many and the
▶ 2:45:46IRS shouldn't add the extra burden with un necessary confusion through the vague math error notices this bill will direct the IRS to improve notices for math errors identifying the change explaining the reason for the change and clearly stating the response date it will also create a pilot program to do a portion of these through certified mail ensuring that the taxpayers are receiving the notice this is a small change that will go a long way
▶ 2:46:16in providing more clarity and better better service for our taxpayers we call constituents and I am grateful for this opportunity to mark this bill up with Congressman Snider thank you very much I yield back gentleman yields back and now recognize the ranking member Neil for his opening statement thank you chairman let me yield my time to the gentleman from Illinois Mr Schneider Mr Schneider is recognized thank you I want to thank my friend ranking member Neil for yielding time and for your continued leadership
▶ 2:46:47I'm happy to join my colleague uh Congressman finstra in introducing the Internal Revenue Service math and taxpayer help act I've long been an advocate for ensuring the IRS prioritizes customer service for the American taxpayers anyone who's received a letter from the IRS knows how sometimes confusing the language may be at best confusing at worst it seems like it's Latin currently when the agency reaches out to taxpayers about errors in the returns or changes that must be made the notices sent are
▶ 2:47:17far from straightforward or helpful often the notice doesn't explain as was mentioned the reason for the adjustment and significantly fails to inform the taxpayer that they have only 60 days to request an abatement or forfeit the right to do so this is certainly frustrating confusing and at its core wrong and the issue is really easy to correct the IRS math act would simply require that the IRS improve their notices and communicate clearly when the agency reaches
▶ 2:47:47out to taxpayers about tax return turn errors I'd be remiss if I didn't also use this moment to discuss the Constitutional crisis that we find ourselves in because of President Trump and Alon musk's so-called Department of government efficiency as we speak musk and his unelected Musketeers are attempting to impose their own arbitrary political control of the nation's Federal Payment Systems in doing so they are violating Americans expectation that their private confidential
▶ 2:48:17information is safe and secure with the IRS and with other federal agencies like Social Administration I'd love to see us focus on ensuring that the IRS is providing the best customer service possible to every American taxpayer but that's impossible when we speak doge is trying to get to gut the federal government and get their hands on sensitive taxpayer information in the process this enormous threat to our democracy should be our Focus today
▶ 2:48:48with that I yield back gentleman yields back the committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 998 the Internal Revenue Service math and taxpayer help Act without objection the measure will be considered as read and open for Amendment at any point at this time I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it without objection the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read open for Amendment at any point and considered base
▶ 2:49:19text for purpose of amendment I will now turn to Tom bartold chief of staff for the joint committee on taxation to provide the technical description of the amendment and the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation Mr Bartle thank you Mr chairman the committee members have before them two joint committee documents jcx 3-25 and jcx 7-25 which describe the underlying
▶ 2:49:49and the Chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute in short this legislation provides that the issuance of a notice under math eror Authority must include with it a plain language description and more detail regarding the nature of the error that is being asserted the legislation also provides that the taxpayer be provided with information on procedures to request an abatement of the proposed change and establishes a pilot program to test the effectiveness of using
▶ 2:50:19certified or registered mail to notify tax uh taxpayers this legis the Chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute clarifies that the report that is to be provided to the Congress should discuss registered mail as well as the effectiveness of certified mail the legislation would be effective upon the date of enactment with respect to notices that would be sent 12 months after the date of enactment so effectively a year after date of enactment
▶ 2:50:50uh the staff of The Joint Committee has estimated that the revenue that there would be a revenue loss of approximately 33 million doar over the budget period of fiscal years 2025 through 2034 from the enactment of this legislation that concludes my brief description I'd be happy to answer any questions that the members might have thank you Mr bartold are there technical questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute Miss Moore no I don't have technical questions does any anyone else
▶ 2:51:20have a technical question any members seeking to strike the last word Miss Moore thank you so much Mr chairman um I uh appreciate the thrust of this legislation to be able to notify taxpayers uh of the reasons uh that uh that the the IRS is making certain decisions based on technical
▶ 2:51:51errors but I just have to mention the plight of of people who are not my constituents but they are people from Wisconsin people from Wisconsin who are farmers and Who provided uh you know shelf stable food for usaid for example uh soy beans being one of the major products uh in Wisconsin it is an agricultural state uh even though Milwaukee my constituency is an urban
▶ 2:52:21area it still is an agricultural State um and they they have gotten no whatsoever um they don't know what these are rural areas I often hear uh my colleagues defending people in rural area very vigorously and 41% of the food that was provided by usaid are provided by American farmers and yet nobody has received any
▶ 2:52:51notice these Farmers don't have any idea whether or not to build that fence uh are they going to uh borrow more cover crop seed uh are they going to put up that high tunnel uh and it's put a pause on people's plans and wondering what's going to happen next and this legislation does not appear to me to be something that is going to uh L into the certainty that you all seem to
▶ 2:53:22uh want as to what they ought to do next there are fiveyear contracts with USDA uh that provided people to front the cost of projects under usaid and also uh uh under uh uh uh um uh that that provides them with the requirement to get reimbursements now the president
▶ 2:53:52has halted this funding and there have been no explanations as to what people ought to do and how they ought to recover the monies that are owed them through the five-year USDA contracts so while I support this legislation I don't know what good it's going to do what good is it going to do to the Wisconsin and farmers who have not gotten their reimbursements
▶ 2:54:23from USDA who have not been given any explanation or instructions about what to do for the future as their contracts with the US Aid have been suspended so I applaud the authors for efforts and I admonish this committee for choosing this moment to take up a technical Bill about corrections
▶ 2:54:53is Cho in this moment at a time when even though the court has ordered has stopped the suspension of lawfully of lawful expenditures that that we're not listening to those court orders that the IRS the treasury Department Elon Musk nobody has to obey court orders that we're now putting the
▶ 2:55:23technical fix in to correct math errors well I think it's a big math error when millions of dollars are being withheld from Farmers that that's a technical error that this bill does not address and so I object to to this bill being in front of us when when we ought to be using our
▶ 2:55:53Authority as article one to make sure that we put forward legislation to to to tell our president that we want our Farmers paid and if we are going to dismantle the USA ID we ought to at least reimburse Farmers for expenses that they have already made we ought to reimburse themse them
▶ 2:56:25honor the hardship that our farmers are experiencing and with that I would yield back Mr chairman is there anyone else wishing to strike the last word seeing none are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute seeing none the question is on agreeing to the amendment
▶ 2:56:56excuse me there was no uh subtitute agree to the question is on agreeing to the nature to the amendment in the nature of a substitute the cler will clerk will call the role oh wait actually Mr panan nope sorry all those in favor say yes I
▶ 2:57:26I those in favor no in the opinion of the chair the yes is are the yeses Prevail and the motion adopted Mr banan is recognized for a motion Mr chairman I move the committee favorably report report HR 998 as amended the House of Representatives question is on the adoption of
▶ 2:57:56HR 998 those in favor say I I those oppose no opinion of the chair the eyes have it clerk will call the role Mr beanan yes Mr beanan yes Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly
▶ 2:58:27Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr L Hood Mr L Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Estus Mr Estus yes Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller
▶ 2:58:57Mrs Miller yes Dr Murphy Dr Murphy yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr Stuy Mr stuie yes m Miss Tenny Miss Tenny yes Mrs fishbach Mrs fishbach yes
▶ 2:59:30Moore Miss vany Miss vany yes Mr finstra Mr finstra yes Miss malot Takis Mr Cary Mr Cary yes Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes Mr Bean yes Mr Bean yes Mr Moran yes
▶ 3:00:00Mr Moran yes Mr Neil Mr Neil yes Mr doet Mr dogget yes Mr Thompson Mr Thompson yes Mr Larsson Mr Larsson yes Mr Davis Mr Davis yes Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez yes Miss Su Miss yes Miss Del Ben Miss Del Ben
▶ 3:00:31yes Miss Chu Miss Chu yes Miss Moore Miss Moore yes Mr Bole Mr Bole yes Mr berer Mr Byer yes Mr Mr Evans yes Mr Schneider Mr Schneider yes Mr Panetta Mr Panetta yes Mr
▶ 3:01:01Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford yes Miss plaset yes Miss plaset yes Mr swazi Mr swazi yes Arrington Mr Arrington yes Mr Moore Mr Moore yes
▶ 3:01:32Miss malot Takis Miss Malia Takis yes Mr Gomez chairman Smith chairman Smith
▶ 3:02:04yes the clerk will will report the vote the yeses are 43 the NOS are zero there being 43 yeses and zero NOS the motion is agreed to and HR 998 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the house without objection I ask that staff be authorized to make Technical and conforming changes to HR 998 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional descending or minority views our next piece
▶ 3:02:34of legislation is the electronic filing and payment Fairness Act introduced by Representatives L Hood finstra Fitzpatrick delb petta and Schneider this bipartisan legislation harmonizes the IRS deadline rules to ensure that electronic payments or documents submitted by midnight on the due date will be considered timely just as postmarked mail is I want to commend our colleagues especially representatives of hood and Schneider the lead sponsors of this legislation last Congress for working together to prioritize this taxpayer Advocate recommendation
▶ 3:03:04once again I now recognize the gentleman from Illinois for the purposes of an opening statement Mr lahood thank you Mr chairman and I want to thank uh full committee chairman chairman Smith for his commitment to improving Tax Administration as part of this committee's work in strengthening the tax code I'm pleased with uh that today we are marking up the electronic filing and payment Fairness Act which I reintroduced earlier this week with my fellow Ways and Means colleagues representative Del Benny finstra Schneider Fitzpatrick
▶ 3:03:34and Panetta this Common Sense bill which has been included in the National taxpayers Advocates purple book of legislative recommendations would simply amend the tax code to apply the quote mailbox rule to electronic submissions of payments and documents to the IRS under current law if a taxpayer physically mails a payment or tax return to the IRS that is postmarked on the due date that payment or tax return is considered timely even if it was received a week
▶ 3:04:05later if the tax if a taxpayer submits the same payment or return to the IRS electronically on the due date however it is considered late if the IRS receives or processes it the following day this disparity obviously makes zero sense in today's te technological world and punishes taxpayers electing to correspond with the IRS electronically which we in this committee should be encouraging this bill which has a negligible
▶ 3:04:35cost will protect the roughly 90% of taxpayers already filing electronically from unnecessary late fees and administrative headaches I urge my colleagues to support this bill and yield back Mr chairman gentleman yields back and now recognize the ranking member Mr Neil for his let me yield my time to the general lady from Washington State Mr delet um thanks to the ranking member for yielding um and to my colleagues and Congressman L Hood uh for introducing this legislation I have long been
▶ 3:05:05an advocate for simplifying and modernizing our tax code to ensure that it's fair for all Americans and while we often disagree on the best approach to reforming the tax code and what is considered Fair the ronic filing and payment Fairness Act is an opportunity to fix an outdated policy known as the mailbox rule currently if a taxpayer mails a payment or tax return to the IRS that is postmarked by midnight on the due date the payment will be considered timely even if it's
▶ 3:05:35received several weeks later however if a taxpayer electronically submits the same payment or return to the IRS on the due date it will be considered late unless the IRS processes it the same day electronic payments are more prolific now than they've been in the past meaning more taxpayers are being penalized despite submitting their payments on time this bill is especially important during a time when Republicans are cutting IRS funding making it more
▶ 3:06:05difficult to hire and retain staff and the president and Elon Musk are slashing the federal Workforce meaning fewer IRS employees to process returns and payments quickly as it stands taxpayers would be better off physically mailing in their payments or returns by the due date regardless of when it is actually processed by the IRS rather than submitting them electronically in case the IRS doesn't have the capacity to immediately process the payment which is even more likely
▶ 3:06:35now due to reduction in federal Workforce and the chaos and confusion currently happening at several agencies this bill is a bipartisan solution to create parody for taxpayers navigating an overly complex tax code by ensuring that a payment or document submitted by midnight on the due date will be considered timely even if the IRS does not process it that day um I urge my colleagues to vote Yes and I yield back thank you the committee will now proceed to consideration
▶ 3:07:06of HR 1152 the electronic filing and payment Fairness Act without objection the measure will be considered as read and open for Amendment at any point this time I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it without objection the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read open for Amendment at any point and considered base text for the purpose of amendment I now turn to Tom bartold chief of staff for the joint
▶ 3:07:36committee on taxation to provide the technical desri description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation Mr bartold thank you Mr chairman the committee members have before them two joint committee documents jcx 4-25 and jcx 8-25 which describe the underlying legislation and the Chairman's amendment in a nature of a substitute to mirror the longstanding mailbox rule
▶ 3:08:06this legislation defines an electronic filing or payment as timely if the electronic submission is on or before the required date regardless of when the agency receives it or processes it the secretary is directed to promulgate such Rules by December 31st of this year uh the Chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute uh clarifies the wording by replacing the word subsection with section
▶ 3:08:37and the staff of the joint committee on taxation has estimated that this would have a negligible Revenue effect over the budget period fiscal 2025 through 203 20 34 uh that concludes my brief uh description I'd be happy to answer any question that the members might have are there questions are there technical questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute seeing none does anyone wish to strike the last word petta Mr Panetta
▶ 3:09:07is recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman move to strike the last word the electronic filing and payment Fairness Act ensures that taxpayers are not penalized for submitting their tax documents and payments electronically as my colleagues have noted there is a discrepancy between documents submitted submitted online and via email currently taxpayers are not penalized for delays in the arrival and processing of tax forms as long as they are postmarked by the IRS deadline however they do not receive the same treatment
▶ 3:09:38for forms received electronically for example a form sent electronically on the day of an IRS deadline could be considered late if it arrives even 1 minute after midnight on the next day this happens even if the taxpayer can provide documentation that the form was sent on time this has caused the IRS to encourage taxpayers to send certain electronic payments by 8:00 p.m.
▶ 3:09:59on the day before the due date a much shorter deadline than exists for paper checks that makes little to no sense given how much more expensive it is to process and keep track of paper payments we all remember the pandemic era photos of the physical tax returns stacked and un and unprocessed and IRS Office Buildings having more taxpayers use online services can prevent that from happening again however we need to ensure that taxpayers are not are not penalized for modernizing this bill
▶ 3:10:29would do that per the recommendation of the taxpayer Advocate now this is a type of legislation that's a no-brainer it makes deadlines make sense it makes tax deadlines make sense and it makes it easy for taxpayers to adhere to the IRS guidance let me also say though that this is a type of work we should be doing more in this committee however it's also imperative that we protect the personal information of Americans who have put their trust in their government to safeguard their personal and financial information it is deeply concerning that the Trump Administration has handed Elon Musk in
▶ 3:10:59full access to the treasury Department's payment system including our constituent Social Security numbers Bank rounding numbers and Health Care data this system processes 1.5 billion payments annually from Social Security tax tax refunds and payments for Essential Health Services it is an essential part of the technical infrastructure of our government and unfortunately unfortunately the Trump Administration has provided no transparency on why Mr musk and his team of tech Bros were given access to the system they
▶ 3:11:30have also not clarified how this data will be protected or what guard rails if any are in place the Integrity of our federal payment system is essential to ensuring proper tax refunds that they reach those who rely on them but this is also why I support this type of leg legislation because right now we need to be doing everything we can to protect our privacy ensure our transparency and bolster efficiency I appreciate the work of my colleagues representative lahood representative Del Benny and rep
▶ 3:12:00Schneider and I look forward to the advancement of this legislation thank you Mr chairman I yield back gentleman yields back does anyone else wish to strike the last word Mr fenra thank you Mr chairman uh I'm a I'm proud to be an original co-sponsor of Congressman the Hood's Tax Administration simplification Act taking another step toward making tax filing process and as easy as possible for Americans that's what we want these are common sense changes like ensuring that payments submitted electronically are
▶ 3:12:30considered made on the date that they are received giving taxpayers flexibility to elect as an S corporation when they're filed their taxes and standardizing tax payment deadlines for businesses thank you Congressman lahood for leading these common and solutions to making life easier for each and every taxpayers thank you and I yield back gentleman yields back does anyone else uh M does anyone else wish to strike the last word no one else you want to strike
▶ 3:13:00you want have an amendment all right seeing no one else wishing to strike the last word we will move forward are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute Mr Horford Mr chairman I reserve a point of order gentleman reserves a point of order the gentleman Mr Horford will suspend while the amendment is being
▶ 3:14:22Mr Horford Mr Horford you may proceed thank you very much uh first I want to commend uh my colleagues on both sides of the aisle for the underlying Bill and their work I support it I am offering this amendment to ensure that the IRS direct file program remains an option for all nevadans providing them with fair and accessible tax filing options my Amendment codifies the direct file program and uh ensures accountability by
▶ 3:14:52requiring an annual report to Congress industry estimates show that the average American spends over $200 just to file a simple return in contrast the IRS direct file offers a cost-free solution for taxpayers allowing them to file their returns without any fees over 140,000 taxpayers including many in my district have already benefited from direct file resulting
▶ 3:15:23in more than $90 million in tax refunds being claimed since my colleagues are committed to improving Tax Administration and supporting hardworking Americans I urge them to join me in advancing this amendment it's time to ensure that more taxpayers can keep more of their hard-earned money uh this tax season and that's exactly what the direct file program does with that Mr chairman I yield back gentleman yields back I now recognize
▶ 3:15:53Mr panon yeah I insist of my point of order amendment is not Germain Mr chairman the gentl I I appeal the r gentleman wish to be heard on the amendment I do I I appeal the ruling of chair the chair has not yet ruled we know where this is going I'd like to speak against the motion
▶ 3:16:24to the gentleman is recognized thank you on the on the issue of germanness the issue of gerain germanness look the fact is clear uh this is a very simple matter I offered a simple Amendment today to ensure that hardworking taxpayers have an additional opportunity to easily file their tax returns that is what the underlying Bill provides for my constituents in Nevada deserve this option your constituents no
▶ 3:16:54matter where they are from deserve it hardworking Americans across the country deserve it U Mr chairman you have the authority to rule my amendment in order by denying it you are denying all of our constituents a tool that's proven itself effective as I said more than 90 million have been refunded Ed to taxpayers through this system why because it works not only that the average American
▶ 3:17:24spends more than $200 in tax prepare fees your decision um is literally costing those constituents more money so much uh for helping those who need them the most I would also like to just reiterate that we need to put in context these bills in the context of everything that else
▶ 3:17:55that is happening before this Congress uh today and who we are really here to serve and fight for I just uh saw the breaking news that the Republicans have announced uh their resolution I I hope it's being called the Republican uh screw America bill because it will definitely do just that by providing $4.5 trillion of additional death deficit uh to our national debt
▶ 3:18:26it will rip off Americans by cutting programs for noing homes and community health centers it would privatize certain provisions of the VA it would eliminate the cap uh for prescription drugs that Democrats worked so hard to enact at a time when constituents are asking for reduced cost it would not address anything related to uh corporate landlords gouging renters or
▶ 3:18:56making housing more affordable and to do what to give more tax breaks to billionaires and to the very wealthy something that Donald Trump and Elon Musk have uh demanded Republicans do uh in this Congress so at a time when I'm asking for a simple amendment to save people money money to make the tax process fairer and easier Republicans are rolling out uh their screw America
▶ 3:19:27resolution that will do the opposite that will hurt our national debt add to the national debt and deficit it will provide tax cuts to the very wealthy and will it will do nothing to reduce cost that's fundamentally the debate that's going on here uh today and I hope that we understand that by rejecting my Amendment you're actually making the lives of nevadans and people all across the country uh harder not easier with that I yield
▶ 3:19:57back the gentleman yields back on his amendment that seeks to codify the direct file program from the IRS currently not codified in statute and prepared to rule that the amendment is not germine to the underlying resolution under Clause seven of rule 16 amendments are not germine if their subject matter is different from that of the underlying resolution the subject matter of the measure before us is limited to the timing of payments
▶ 3:20:27and filing I appeal the ruling of the chair Mr chairman I move the T table uh the appeal the motion before us is to table the appeal those in favor say I those no no the opinion of the chair the eyes have it clerk will call the rooll Mr banan M yes Mr banan yes Mr
▶ 3:20:57Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr L Hood Mr Le Hood yes Arrington Mr Estus Mr
▶ 3:21:28smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Dr Murphy Dr Murphy yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr Stuy Mr Stuy yes
▶ 3:21:59Miss Tenny Miss Tenny yes Mrs fishbach yes Mrs fishbach yes Mr Moore Miss vany Miss vany yes yes Mr finstra Mr finra yes Miss malot Takis Miss malot takus yes Mr Cary Mr Cary yes
▶ 3:22:30Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller yes Mr Miller yes Mr Bean yes Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr NE Neil Mr Neil no Mr doet Mr doet no Mr Thompson Mr Thompson no Mr Larson
▶ 3:23:00Mr Davis Mr Davis no Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez no Miss Su Miss Su no Miss doy Miss Del Ben no Miss Chu Miss Chu no Miss Moore Miss Moore no Mr Bole Mr Bole no Mr berer
▶ 3:23:31Mr Byer no Mr Evans Mr Evans no Mr Schneider Mr Schneider no Mr Panetta Mr Panetta no Mr Gomez Horford Mr Horford no Miss plaset Miss plaset no Mr swazi no Mr swazi
▶ 3:24:02no Mr Arrington Mr Estus Mr Estus yes Mrs Miller yes Mrs Miller yes Moore Mr Moore yes Mr Larson Mr Larson
▶ 3:24:37no Mr Gomez chairman Smith chairman Smith yes
▶ 3:25:12the clerk will call the role or will read the report the results the yeses are 24 the NOS are appeal the appeal is tabled are there amendments if there no further amendments the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute all those in favor signify by saying yes I those oppose no in the opinion
▶ 3:25:42of the chair the yeses have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is a agreed to I will now recognize Mr Buchanan for the purpose of offering a motion Mr chairman I move the committee favorably report HR 1152 as amended to the House of Representatives the question is on the motion to favorably report HR 11152 as Amendment as amended to the House of Representatives the clerk will call the role Mr banan yes Mr Buchanan yes
▶ 3:26:13Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr Smith of Nebraska yes Mr Kelly Mr schwier Mr schwier yes Mr Le Hood Mr Le Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Estus Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn
▶ 3:26:43Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Dr Murphy Dr Murphy yes Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr stuie Mr stubie yes Miss tinny Miss Tenny yes Mrs fishbach Mrs fishbach yes Mr
▶ 3:27:13Moore Mr Moore yes vany Miss vany yes Mr finstra Mr finstra yes Miss Malia takas Miss Malia Takis yes Mr Cary Mr Carrie yes Mr yakum Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes Mr Bean
▶ 3:27:44Mr Bean yes Mr Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Mr Neil Mr Neil yes Mr doet Mr doet yes Mr Thompson Mr Thompson yes Mr Larson Mr Davis Mr Davis yes Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez yes
▶ 3:28:14Miss Su Miss Su yes Miss van Miss Del Ben Miss Del Ben yes Miss Chu Miss Chu yes Miss Moore Miss Moore yes Mr Bole Mr Bole yes Mr berer Mr Byer yes Mr Evans Mr Evans yes Mr Schneider Mr Schneider yes Mr Panetta
▶ 3:28:44Mr Panetta yes Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford yes Miss plaset yes Miss plaset yes Mr swazi Mr yes Mr Arrington Mr Estus Mr Estus yes
▶ 3:29:18Miller Mrs Miller yes Mr Larsson Mr Gomez chairman Smith yes chairman Smith
▶ 3:30:00yes the clerk will report the vote the yeses are 41 the NOS are zero there being 41 yeses and zero NOS the motion is agreed to in HR 1152 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the house without objection I ask that staff be authorized to make Technical and conforming changes to HR 1152 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views
▶ 3:30:30our final piece of legislation is HR 1156 the pandemic unemployment fraud Enforcement Act last Congress we explored the unprecedented unemployment insurance fraud that that occurred dur during the pandemic what we discovered was shocking criminals have stolen hundreds of billions of dollars in taxpayer money and they're going to get away with it unless we act to fix it
▶ 3:31:00the government accountability office estimates that fraud may be as high as 135 billion outside experts have put the number much higher at 400 billion or nearly half of total spending making this the largest theft of of taxpayer dollars in US history according to the most recent data from the Department of Labor roughly 4% of the stolen funds has been recovered today there are more than 150,000 open UI
▶ 3:31:31fraud complaints and more than 1,600 ongoing investigations across the country but unfortunately the 5year statute of limitations of Prosecuting this fraud will expire in just 43 days unless we act this bipartisan legislation extends the statute of limitations to allow time to fully prosecute the criminals who stole from taxpayers to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars and helps us continue
▶ 3:32:01to recoup those funds the American people they deserve justice and now it's up to Congress to deliver it I now recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts Mr nil for his opening statement thank you let me yield my time to the gentleman from California Mr Thompson thank the ranking member uh Mr chairman you're correct we held a markup last Congress where this committee looked at unemployment insurance fraud I offered an amendment then which would have extended the statute of limitations for those who committed
▶ 3:32:31unemployment insurance fraud during the pandemic Larry Turner the respected Inspector General of the Department of Labor who was wrongfully terminated by this Administration made a compelling case to to us that it would take his investigators and prosecutors time to investigate and build strong legal cases for some of the worst fraud of the pandemic sophisticated criminal rings that use stolen identity
▶ 3:33:01and bank account information to steal millions or even billions of taxpayer dollars IG Turner and his team also delivered on their promise they focused on bringing the worst criminals to Justice and so far have secured 1,400 convictions and over a billion dollars in court-ordered restitution I'd like to enter into the record of the covid-19 fraud enforcement task force uh report
▶ 3:33:31without objection objection I later withdrew that Amendment upon agreement with chairman Smith that we would work together to address this issue throughout the last two years Republicans and Democrats came to an agreement extend the statute of limitations and it even made it into the unemployment insurance integrity and accessibility act that was a bipartisan Bill
▶ 3:34:02negotiated by senators kpo and weiden however while this bill extends the statue of limitations it resend this bill that we have today resends critical funding we provided in the American Rescue plan that Department of Labor has been using on an ongoing basis to fund among other things free state access to two critical ident uh identity verification tools login.gov
▶ 3:34:32and in-person identity verification at the US Post Office these tools are used by the Department of Labor and and states to confirm identity and to prevent fraud so while we're making uh while we're extending the time period for which law enforcement can prosecute those who committed fraud we're taking away funding to prevent future fraud I'm disappointed that yet another bipartisan agreement has been walked back
▶ 3:35:03by my Republican colleagues I can't support legislation that solves one problem but then creates another I urge my colleagues to vote no unless we can come to some agreement uh to change this and I yield back the balance of my time thank you the committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 1156 the pandemic unemployment fraud Enforcement Act without objection the measure will be considered as read and open for Amendment at any point at this time I offer an amendment
▶ 3:35:33in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it without objection the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read open for Amendment at any point and considered base text for purpose of amendment I will now turn to Cheryl Vincent staff director of the subcommittee on work and Welfare to provide the technical description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction I ask the members hold their questions until after her presentation thank you chairman Smith and ranking member Neil
▶ 3:36:03HR 1156 the pandemic unemployment fraud Enforcement Act establishes a 10year statute of limitations for criminal prosecutions and civil enforcement actions related to fraud unemployment claims funded by federal unemployment insurance programs in the cares act including pandemic unemployment assistance in section 2102 of the cares act Federal pandemic unemployment compensation and mixed earners unemployment compensation in section 2104 of
▶ 3:36:33the car's act and pandemic emergency unemployment compensation in section 21107 of the cares act the bill also resends $5 million in un on un obligated balances from prior year Appropriations made available to the Department of Labor in the car's act as reflected on the Green Sheet the Chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute modifies HR 1156 introduced on page four by capitalizing pandemic emergency unemployment
▶ 3:37:04compensation and on page five line 16 striking this and inserting the these changes are consistent with the intent of the provisions to correct references and make conforming changes Mr chairman that completes my walkthrough and I'm happy to answer technical questions thank you are there any technical questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute seeing none we'll move to strike the last word does any member wish to strike the last word Mr fenstra
▶ 3:37:34Danny Davis thank you Mr chairman and thank you for this this wonderful Bill I'd like to submit for the record from a letter from the executive director of the Iowa Workforce devel Development Beth Townson without objection thank you the Federal Banking crimes that we are currently charging pandemic fraud fraud frauders with include mail fraud wire fraud conspiracy identity theft money laundering and they have the statue of limitations for only five years and that time is up March 2725
▶ 3:38:05just over one month away it is critical that we extend the statute of limitations and continue Prosecuting those who stole from the American taxpayers we need to catch the these criminals and make sure that we recover the money first of all because that's a responsible thing to do but also to send a message to those who are considered ripping off American taxpayers that we will not put up with it just last week Workforce and Welfare chairman Le Hood held a hearing on this issue and during my one of my questions to
▶ 3:38:35our Witnesses they discussed the problems that are ongoing how criminals are now taking advantage of families in California suffering from wildfires every time we have a disaster we can expect the fraud to pray on America Americans struggling to get back on their feet in the aftermath of any disaster we need to go after the frauders and take away any chance for them to run out the clock we need need to send a message to anyone who might consider defrauding the American people as a career path
▶ 3:39:05and we will find you and we will put you in prison this bill is a critical Step at ensuring that is what we'll do and I thank the chairman for leading this effort thank you I your back thank you Mr Davis is recognized thank you Mr chairman I stct the last word Mr chairman like all of my Democratic colleagues I strongly support bringing the criminals who stole from our unemployment system during the pandemic to Justice and have fought to
▶ 3:39:35give the Department of Labor Inspector General rig all the tools he needs to do that including both with the resources and more time to investigate and prosecute that's why I'm profoundly disappointed by the majority's choice Advance a partisan bill that could put both fraud fighting and our constituents
▶ 3:40:06at risk instead of working with us on a basis this bill would give the oig five additional years to file charges for alleged fraud in the pandemic UI programs whether the charges are against a criminal mastermind who use stolen Social Security numbers to steal millions of dollars or a struggling
▶ 3:40:36parent who was overpaid by an overworked State UI system the last time we discussed this issue the oig was under the direction of Larry Turner an upstanding public official who had laid out a clear plan to go after the real criminals and was Fen it on his watch 1,400 fraud
▶ 3:41:07perpetrators were convicted and over a billion dollars in restitution was ordered by the courts but on January 24th president Trump illegally fired Mr Turner along with 16 other trusted nonpartisan inspectors General the oig office is currently without long-term leadership so it was forced to describe their future
▶ 3:41:37plans and as of January 24 in a recent mandated report to without Mr Turner or any assurance that the oig will follow his plan we risk enabling four years of harassment for constituents by people like billionaire Elon Musk who recently accused millions of Social Security
▶ 3:42:08and Medicare recipients of fraud at our hearing last week I asked my Republican colleagues to work with us to address that presson issue so that we could move ahead and I renew that request now in addition to the risk of worker harassment by unqualified musk allies this bill would cut a small but important source of anti-f fraud
▶ 3:42:38funding at the Department of Labor and although the funding is technically unobligated the department has been using it to cover costs associated with providing free identity verification tools to States and also to provide other technical assistance to states to prevent fraud and ensure timely access to
▶ 3:43:09benefits cutting that funding might mean it would run out and increas in F fraud in the future so Mr chairman I urge you to work with us to fight fraud and protect our constituents from the ongoing attacks on their privacy and unfortunately this bill will not do that and I Y back the balance of my time Mr L Hood
▶ 3:43:39thank you Mr chairman I mov to strike the last word I'm proud to co-sponsor the pandemic unemployment fraud enforcement act and appreciate you bringing this bill before the committee here today I look at this this is a must-pass bill uh federal law enforcement agencies are in the middle of litigating hundreds of cases with hundreds more uh yet to be litigated these cases are primarily rying on criminal statutes that carry a 5-year limitation this bill will establish a 10-year limit specific to the pandemic on employment
▶ 3:44:09programs where we know hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars were lost to fraud last week the work and Welfare subcommittee held a hearing on this issue and the Imp the implications of failing to act our Witnesses made clear that extending the statute of limitations is critical to recovering these dollars the same criminals that defrauded unemployment benefits are continuing to undermine critical programs that Americans rely on today in times of need
▶ 3:44:40during our hearing one of our Witnesses Haywood Talco of Lexus Nexus told us quote the same groups doing the same thing are happening now this time criminals are stealing disaster benefits owed to the Los Angeles Fire and North Carolina hurricane victims as a member of the House select committee on China I'm also deeply concerned about repeated reports of known International crime Rings targeting the UI program in January the
▶ 3:45:10US Department of Justice charged three defendants with fraudulently obtaining 50 9 million in public funds and laundering the proceeds to China cases like this confirm our worst fears regarding the attacks on our institution institutions by hostile Nations such as China this should not be a partisan exercise in the 117th Congress every Democrat member of this committee voted for the quote PPP and Bank enforcement
▶ 3:45:40bank fraud Enforcement harmonization Act a bill that extended the statute of limitation for criminal charges and civil enforcement in the covid era paycheck Protection Program to 10 years exactly the same amount that we're asking in this bill that bill passed on suspension in the house by a vote of 421 to zero and passed a sen Senate by unanimous consent the bill we are considering today is the same policy applied to pandemic UI programs
▶ 3:46:10which had similar levels of fraud HR 1156 has also received the endorsement of the National Association of State agencies representing red and blue States across the country Mr chairman I'd like to submit uh this endorsement letter dated February 11th 2025 into the record without objection every dollar going to fraud is a dollar that does not go to those who need it I hope
▶ 3:46:40that my Democrat colleagues will join us in supporting this common sense bill and I yield back thank you Mr doin thank you Mr chairman I am pleased to see that uh this committee is finally showing some interest in not just talking about waste Fraud and Abuse but taking some action on it the uh unemployment fraud that occurred began under President Trump and it continued under President Biden American taxpayers deserve diligent oversight to ensure
▶ 3:47:11that their hard ironed dollars are well spent and don't fall in the hands of fraudsters I am concerned however by the narrow focus of this bill because we have ample evidence that about a billion dollars uh during the same time uh was uh the subject of fraud under the employee retention tax credit uh this committee recognized that that could be the source of funding on one of the bills that it considered last year but this bill and no other bill
▶ 3:47:41before the committee does anything about that area of fraud uh I uh have also proposed uh bills of my own concerning Medicare fraud that have unfortunately never gotten a hearing in this committee nevertheless uh my concern with this bill is that with eventual president and extremist in the administration who don't really even believe in unemployment insurance in the first place might well use this legislation
▶ 3:48:11to penalize some Americans who mistakenly receive overp payments through no fault of their own the only unemployment legislation considered by this committee last Congress would have done just that by clawing back money from laid-off workers who mistakenly received overpayments miscalculated payments that primarily occurred under President Trump's first Administration when unemployment rates Peak to unprecedented levels uh as he was President these improper
▶ 3:48:42payments are concerning and reforms are important to prevent similar mistakes from happening in the future but I don't think it uh really accomplishes much to punish workers who committed no wrong themselves now with Trump musk and the Musketeers on a rampage disregarding our laws and constitutional principles this legislation could be weaponized to charge innocent Americans with fraud it is also remarkable that this bill directed at fraud
▶ 3:49:12uh it relies on payments uh to finance it that are taken right out of the anti fraud Provisions that are currently available so it takes from one hand and gives to another uh and does not do nearly as much as as should occur with regard to fraud and of course if my Republican friends are truly interested in fraud during the pandemic they would not be seeking to Res to repeal the restoration of Internal Revenue Service enforcement funding
▶ 3:49:43that we secured in 202 2 thanks to a decade of targeted Republican budget cuts the IRS audit rates on Millionaires and billionaires fell by More than 70% and the audit audit rate on corporations declined by more than 50% permitting plenty of tax fraud reversing the effects of a decade's worth of budget cuts to enforcement funding doesn't happen overnight but our actions have already demonstrated some success
▶ 3:50:14according to the treasury Inspector General for tax administration uh I mean really the former uh treasury Inspector General since that person was fired by President Trump in the Friday night Massacre that eliminated uh 16 other inspector generals according to him reversing these Cuts with our restoration of funding gave the IRS it needed to disrupt some of the fraudsters and prevented a significant number of fraudulent payments I know some
▶ 3:50:44of my Republican colleagues have taken an interest in the employee retention tax credit fraud uh but we need more attention on it many of these claims actually occurred at the urging of businesses that were out selling advice and boldly claiming that everyone qualifies for this credit so there's probably ample fraud with this bill however the Republicans seem to be sending a message that a worker who unfortunately lost his or her job during the pandemic through
▶ 3:51:14no def fault of their own and receive payments from a state unemployment system uh that were an era and not the responsibility of any Mistake by the recipient that that person uh may be held accountable for some State government's mistake but if you're a well-connected and unscrupulous business you'll be assisted in filing for a tax refund that you don't deserve and the Watchdogs are being defunded to ensure you're never held accountable I oppose this
▶ 3:51:44legislation and yield back smucker thank you Mr chairman I'd like to respond to what we just heard Mr dogget saying and and some other uh things that were said earlier uh Mr doet talked about being concerned about fraud and uh I I 100% agree that we should all be concerned with that um and I think um everybody on this panel on both sides of the aisle uh are concerned about government
▶ 3:52:15dollars taxpayers dollars probably better said that are not getting to the beneficiaries that should be receiving those dollars and frankly I think that's exactly what doge is doing uh and I'm happy that we uh finally have a president who is willing to tackle fraud wherever he finds it and we have someone in Elon Musk who is using tools available to us to be able
▶ 3:52:45to to to root out the fraud that we have all known exists for a long period of time uh and I tell you every taxpayer everyone here should be very happy when we see happening what is happening right here and everyone who is uh relying on any sort of payment from the federal government ought to be happy because every dollar that we root out in fraud uh means that it's a dollar that can be spent on uh something else uh and
▶ 3:53:15you know I've also heard the charge here this morning that um uh Mr musk is you know some sort of um official who has no accountability uh and uh I just want to point out just yesterday there was a news conference in the Oval Office this is someone who is answering directly to the president of the United States and doing exact the president through Mr musk is directing exactly what a
▶ 3:53:45president should be doing he's the head executive in the ex the head person in the executive branch responsible to ensure that our government is being conducted efficiently and effectively uh and uh some of the things that they're finding is amazing uh like for instance in Social Security what we've heard I mean it's appalling I guess is a better word uh there are social security benefits going out to individuals who would 150
▶ 3:54:16years old so we know that is fraudulent someone has been getting those checks for a long period of time I don't think anyone in this panel would want that to occur there are checks being going or that are going out to individuals who do not even have social security numbers there are checks being sent out to multiple individuals with the same social security number we talk about the insolvency of Social Security let's be sure that
▶ 3:54:46every dollar being spent well just a minute sure I will in a minute but let's be sure that every dollar uh being spent is is is going to the person the people who deserve that um and so you know all this talk about musk I don't understand we should all be thrilled with what he's doing I'm telling you I certainly am I will yield well thanks gentlemen but would it surprised gentlemen to know that uh uh social security is one of
▶ 3:55:16the largest uh governmental programs that we have and I come from an insurance City what do you think it costs to administer Insurance in general what do you think their administrative costs are well there's somewhere between 16 26% what does the federal government provide for Social Security to administer the more than 70 million people on Social Security current ly with the cuts you've provided
▶ 3:55:47it's under 1% to manage all of our constituents would the gentleman think that that's a little less and then oh by the way with the right Administration maybe you'd catch these things that we all think need to be caught but if you're going to gut the administration and then say oh that's good work look what he found reclaim my time I think I think it's I think that's important point we could uh talk about whether
▶ 3:56:17they have the correct systems in place but I I still don't understand uh the um concern with what Mr musk is doing like you should you should be uh thrilled when we are finding fraud thrilled that he has access to all the information and data that he hasn't given us and that he's unaccountable to anybody I don't get thrilled over that I get very concerned and so are 70 million
▶ 3:56:47of your constituents reclaiming my time because we we're we're about out of time so number one he's not unaccountable uh we should be doing audits of our government agencies this is an audit and do you realize how many individuals in the administration already have access to personal information it is illegal to share that information that would be illegal if Mr musk or anyone from his team do it but this is an audit and to audit the agencies you're going to have to have access to
▶ 3:57:17some of the information I yield back my time Mr Neil thank you I think the point a question here is not the audit it's the accusatory nature of what's being suggested so 10,000 employees at usaid are laid off and the suggestion made here earlier today it's because of a Dei problem a drag show in Dublin for $60,000 I think that's what we're upset about the idea is that these are pronouncements that are being made made with very little
▶ 3:57:47evidence by an individual again who has been acknowledged on our side really doesn't have a portfolio other than to say this has happened and there's a part of a congress now that swoons instead of saying let's see the evidence let's proceed on that basis and Mr larsson's very much correct the efficiency of Medicare the efficiency of Social Security even with the acknowledgement that Mr dog had offered earlier that I've been consistent with for years on this committee and that is we should address fraud
▶ 3:58:18in Medicare but there's never been any movement here I suggested one assistant us attorney in each office to deal with it it's Medicare fraud is pretty much limited to three or four states in the country we should be tackling that but these are press releases that are being offered this was my Amendment Mr Thompson's Amendment and I guess what we're suggesting here is that a a more uh deliberative process as opposed to the attention grabbing headline that are taking place and by the way some of them are
▶ 3:58:48cruel I know what GSA has done in my community over the years I know what FEMA did to rebuild my community and eight other additional cities and towns after a tornado these people might be governing government employees but they're entitled to the honor and dignity that comes with that title when they've done a really good job and privately by the way I've had Republicans Express to me FEMA did a good job in their respective communities as well I yield back my time Mr Mr Murphy
▶ 3:59:19thank you Mr chairman I'll try to make this brief because I don't want to fall off the wagon like we've fallen off before um I'm proud to support the pandemic unemployment fraud enhancement act because I think that's what we're talking about uh which will help States recover fraudulent employment payment $400 billion some estimates were intended to go to hardworking families that were siphoned off and stolen by criminals and transnational organ organizations getting back to the matter at hand this bill extends the statute of limitations to allow
▶ 3:59:49our law enforcement agencies and prosecutors to track down those criminals to hold them accountable the American people now overwhelmingly want something done about their government this is an 8020 issue right now and as we look to get into a fiscally responsible course for the nation attacking fraud is lwh hanging fruit that I believe all of us can agree upon no longer should Congress or the administration sit by idly by while while the government writes a blank check
▶ 4:00:19to criminals this Administration by vote this Administration by mandate is coming out to put house the house in order in our fiscal responsibility m in a fiscally responsible Manner and I thank chairman Smith and chairman lahood for their leadership on this bill I urge my colleagues for a unanimous support of the pandemic fraud unemployment fraud enhancement act I'll yield back Mr Thompson thank you uh Mr chairman I I
▶ 4:00:49just want to point out um Mr Neil talked about FEMA and the complete uh and utter lies that have been spread about that fantastic uh organization uh I lost thousands of homes in my district as some of you uh know in because of the fires that went through uh my district U my neighbor uh congressman lamala from your side of the aisle uh lost thousands of
▶ 4:01:19homes in in his district I was just down to visit Miss Chu's District where she's lost thousands of homes uh North Carolina with the floods countless other natural disasters FEMA is the agency that's there that's on the ground they do incredible work at the time when our constituents are most at need so uh Mr Neil is is correct um it's inappropriate to invoke their name in any sort of negative
▶ 4:01:50uh way uh and I'd like to yield my time Mr doet thank you very much and I will respectfully respond to our colleague from Pennsylvania and the remainder of the committee and say that I'm certainly thrilled by any reasonable effort to reduce fraud in our government I'm concerned that this bill takes such a narrow focus and that the committee seems to be totally disinterested in the employee retention tax credit from about which there has been substantial fraud as the committee recognized last year but it's doing nothing
▶ 4:02:20about it this year what I'm not thrilled about are people that go out and violate the laws people that tell uh federal workers being paid for with taxpayer money not to show up for work not because of anything the Congress has done but because they don't fit with the ideological parameters out there I'm not thrilled with sending a message to patriotic Americans around the world who are out there representing our country and defending our national security and telling them they're left with nothing
▶ 4:02:50that they're abandoned in whatever remote area of the world they may be working I'm not fine I'm not thrilled by the fact that yesterday An Inspector General has reported that $500 million of food is rotting on our ports and this President responds by firing that Inspector General for telling the truth that's plenty of waste that we could do something about I'm not thrilled when someone smart as he may be able as he may
▶ 4:03:20be refuses to comply with normal conflict of interest Provisions when he has billions of dollars of potential conflicts I'm not thrilled when there is an attitude of in Elon We Trust we don't accept his claims of eliminating fraud waste and abuse simply because he said says he is doing that we need to see it and you would not even bring someone yesterday after the speaker
▶ 4:03:50promised we would have an opportunity to explore what doge is doing you wouldn't bring anybody not a single person so I would just say to you if you are so thrilled about Elon Musk and all he's doing bring him to sit right here at this table bring the Secretary of Treasury bring his racist 25-year-old or his teenager who he had investigating uh so much of the records of our American citizens let them come here because we don't trust
▶ 4:04:21Elon we want to hear from him uh and I'd be delighted to have the opportunity to explore uh with those folks more than just their claims the facts of what they're doing uh and perhaps we can get a better picture of whether there is anything to be thrilled about here because I can tell you that there are plenty of public servants who have been out there doing their job they have complied with the laws the Congress has not told them that they are dismissed but they've been
▶ 4:04:51put on hold and unable to do their job the most recent of which are people with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau that are out there protecting us from credit card companies and payday lenders and mortgage companies that might take advantage of American consumers without any good reason they fire the director they shut down the office they tell the employees to stay at home and they appoint uh a trump project 2025 extremist to take
▶ 4:05:21over and assure that American consumers will not have any protection whatsoever I don't find that very thrilling but I would be delighted to have someone come before this committee and explain why it was done I back Mr Smith thank you Mr chairman certainly thank you uh to my colleagues and uh uh all those who recognize the important work that we are expected to do I reflect a lot on what the American people want us to do
▶ 4:05:51and perhaps uh sometimes viewing how we kind of slip into a uh an exchange that isn't necessarily what the American people want us to do and or or to to carry out but I'm very proud to be a co-sponsor of uh the pending Bill HR 1156 that would extend the statute of limitations deadline for the process ution of pandemic unemployment insurance fraud for an additional 5 years GAO as we probably know estimated as much as
▶ 4:06:22100 to 135 billion in in UI benefits were lost to fraud during covid only about 5 billion of which has been recovered I think that's quite a lesson that shows how much work we have to do as it relates to taxpayer dollars being spent and the expectation that millions of Americans reasonably have that the their hard-earned taxpayer dollars help people truly in need and no
▶ 4:06:52else I'm very very uh uh concerned o overall about how the spending occurs and the the structures in place that really discourage reviews and so we are seeing I think a a very open uh scenario with Mr musk taking a closer look at how we spend our tax dollars I think we would be wise to pay a lot of attention now I I think there's a
▶ 4:07:22lot of attention being paid maybe not all in the interest of improving things uh but I I hope that we can deliver to the American people a better way of doing things especially as it relates to spending their hard-earned taxpayer dollars and uh we heard uh Mr smucker say earlier outlining you know the the fraud that takes place with uh a social security check going to 150y Old it's bad enough that the that the
▶ 4:07:52technology that's even old technology should catch that and yet it gets out there and then there's more fraud because someone accepts those benefits certainly uh they they don't have too many concerns about that uh but I I think we need to pay closer attention to what the American people want us to do and that is to take a closer look and certainly start with this legislation uh that I think has a lot of
▶ 4:08:23agreement and can be very effective at uh rooting out the fraud that we know has taken place let's try to prevent it from taking place and if if we can't do that then let's certainly uh look to the statute of limitations being more reasonable so that we can recover that thank you AEL back Mr uh thank you Mr chairman and I want to thank Mr Schmucker as well for yielding me time before as well
▶ 4:08:53but uh and listen I think we've said it very clearly on this side where as much as opposed to the Fraud and Abuse that has taken place and want to make sure that we get at it but can you if it wasn't Mr M that the Democratic one and we appointed David Rubenstein Mr Trump just got rid of to say you know we're putting you in charge
▶ 4:09:23of finding $2 trillion well I don't know people are going to try want to look at my credentials and see what I have don't worry we're going to put you outside of the governmental process you won't have to go through Senate confirmation you you know will not have to disclose where your money is in fact you won't even have to disclose any of your governmental contract I'm sure you guys would be silent I'm sure
▶ 4:09:53you wouldn't have said a word you would just say yes God anything that he could possibly find in these agencies and oh look what we found over here and how abor that is that clearly justifies the fact that it's the billionaire class that we need running this country there is no need for a United States Congress and individuals charged with the responsibility by their constituents we
▶ 4:10:23defer to people of wealth because well they wouldn't have got there if they weren't smart and they wouldn't have had that money but what has that resulted in what are the real facts in any fraud abuse or waste in any governmental program should be gone after but how about the majority of people including in your District where more than 171,000 people are social security recipients are they all fraudulent
▶ 4:10:54are they all getting fraudulent claims are the 17 million disabled the 38 million widows the million your District receives monthly just for Social Security is that with the gentleman youth fraud absolutely so that's absurd to to to equate what I'm saying with the benefits
▶ 4:11:24that the 100 I don't know if it's 171,000 your number I don't know that off hand but we're talking about benefits we're talking about I'm sure you know that so I I I'll take that but we're talking about benefits that are going to individuals who should not be receiving it so that those who should be we'll have additional dollars available so that in Social Security doesn't go insolvent for so long we haven't we haven't as a congress enhanced
▶ 4:11:54Social Security in over 50 years means we haven't enhan the administration where were all these questions brought to SSA prior to that Etc and it took Mr musk it took a billionaire to to find this out I don't think so I think it's neglect on the part of Congress both sides but for God's sake we owe we owe it to the American people to say this is It's the United
▶ 4:12:24States congress's responsibility not someone outside of Congress given a task to find $2 trillion H why does that ring a bell oh that's kind of consistent with the tax cut that took place in 2017 and at sunsets in 2025 and how much money we need so I guess that's what we're applauding him for but anytime you can find fraud Bru abuse and neglect
▶ 4:12:55we ought to deal with it but how you find it and what you authorize people and the lack of accountability is not what a democracy and a republic is all about that's our concern and I yield back Mr Hearn thank you Mr chairman this has been a great dialogue today and um I'm glad that we on both sides have agreed that uh the waste Fraud and Abuse in government is bad uh long before I got here um both congresses
▶ 4:13:25regardless who was in The White House we we had a really hard time ever getting uh the executive branch to ever comply with us so maybe once we get reset here with uh what's going on and we all agree that the the waste fraud abuse that's found is bad irrespective of who found it that would be great uh as well I read an article a sentence other day or a statement from a vice president that said there is a lot of ridiculous spending in government we've got to get it cut out then I realized that was Al Gore who said it in 1994 and then
▶ 4:13:55Bill Clinton goes on to cut 273,000 federal workers because of the waste Fraud and Abuse in government and it is important that we do this on a regular basis that we look at this we get our oversight but we've been blocked so many times by all administrations and uh you know when you you see what's going on you have the opportunity as a president to do this and as my friend from Pennsylvania said bring in an outside auditor somebody that has the wherewithal to do this and I I understand I get it why it's a it's
▶ 4:14:25a good political fod as Mr musk said he expected to be ridiculed and criticized and you guys are doing a great job of that but at the end of the day the American people want our government to be respective of its taxpayer dollars is coming to Washington DC and I would hope my Democrat colleagues are as well I yield the balance of my time from a gentleman to the gentleman from Pennsylvania I'd like to thank gentleman for yieldings I've been contemplating the question put to me by Mr lson in regards to how I would feel if a Democrat
▶ 4:14:56president had put forward a similar position to try to root out the waste and fraud and we had the same kind of results and I got to tell you I mean it's a hypothetical question but I think I'd be I think I'd like this um and I I do think that um there's so much that we could AG agree on uh in regards to the results that he is getting that will root out the Fraud and Abuse they're using tools of just analyzing the data and realizing
▶ 4:15:26how far behind the infrastructure and the systems were at these agencies that was allowing what I think is probably criminal fraud in many cases you're seeing dollars go out I also want to say I agree with Mr dogget my friend from Texas who talked about the ERC uh I think folks on this side of the aisle would agree that there's been fraud in the ERC it was a program that was designed to help companies that were forced to shut down during uh Co
▶ 4:15:56but it was it's been carried on Way Beyond that there's a lot of fraud in that system and in fact I'd just like to remind the gentleman that we literally on a bipartisan basis uh ended that in a bill that we passed out of ways and means and then on the floor in the house and if the senate had taken that up we would have ended that program because we thought its time should have passed for for quite some time and then to the issue uh of of securing Social
▶ 4:16:27Security um and ensuring that uh that continues to exist for future uh uh recipients and for future Generations 100% we should be doing that we know that the president uh uh put forward a budget last uh cycle last uh year that shows Social Security will be insolvent in nine years and and uh one of the ways we can help to ensure that that time is extended is every single Dollar in Social
▶ 4:16:57Security that goes to someone who shouldn't be receiving it we ought to be supporting that and so um I hear what you're all saying about uh Doge but I don't get it because this isn't someone who is unaccountable and by the way the Executive Branch is responsible to carry out the law uh and they're they should be doing that in the most efficient effective way they can so I'll support any president who is trying to do that who's
▶ 4:17:27trying to ensure that the taxpayer dollars are being spent wisely yes so I think very very very quickly on on Social Security yeah that's great that you're as you're saying that this the life may be expens ended again and that you know could happen if they found things there but every day individuals the 70 million people who receive Social
▶ 4:17:58Security they have been underpaid since 1971 Congress hasn't made an adjustment Congress hasn't done a thing and what you're basically saying yes yes but wait for someone who come on the outside they'll the Fraud and Abuse and maybe just reclaiming my time that's that's not not not what I'm saying at all I'm going to reclaim reclaim my time I would just I would just say that's a different issue that is a much broader subject about how we tell your constituents it's a different issue
▶ 4:18:28you're not getting that money I'm saying that rooting out any fraud and waste in the system will improve the solvency of Social Security and we ought to be applauding that agree but not as much as doing something about it and actually paying your fair share that would help Miss Sanchez thank you Mr chairman I really wish that I could believe my colleagues across the aisle when they say that they're so concerned about fraud
▶ 4:18:58because in the past few weeks we have seen more fraud and law lawlessness than I have seen in my two decades in Congress now you keep saying that Elon Musk is accountable he's not accountable Congress holds the power of the purse Elon Musk Is Not Elected he doesn't file a financial disclosure form to see if there's any conflicts of interest because his companies do receive government contracts he wasn't vetted or confirmed by the Senate he works
▶ 4:19:28at the discretion of the president but Congress again I will remind people constitutionally we hold the power of the purse he cannot unilaterally stop funding that Congress has appropriated as colleague Mr Davis mentioned last week in the subcommittee hearing on this topic president Trump illegally fired the Department of Labor Inspector General responsible for weeding out unemployment insurance fraud chairman Smith's Bill seeks to double the statute
▶ 4:19:58of limitations on this fraud unfortunately with President Trump's chaotic and illegal new form of government the American people cannot be sure that a new statute of limitations is going to be used correctly and I want to explain that President Trump fired nonpartisan inspector generals there that means there is no longer oversight onto how these prosecutions can be used because there's no IGS given Elon musk's
▶ 4:20:29recent history of calling programs that he either doesn't like or doesn't understand quite frankly he calls them fraudulent we can't be sure that this bill won't be used to attack minorities who are legitimately who legitimately qualify for unemployment insurance not to mention the really disturbing detail that one of his doge employees is an overt racist which doesn't seem to bother that side of the aisle not all individuals investigated under this statute are
▶ 4:20:59malicious this would open up lowincome individuals who were the victims of overpayments six years ago would open them up to prosecution while I'm committed to ensuring that taxpayer dollars are used responsibly I think everybody on this committee wants to see them Ed responsibly I don't believe that extending the statute of limitations on prosecution is a reasonable solution one of the most effective prosecutors of unemployment fraud was just fired by President Trump you're con so concerned
▶ 4:21:29about fraud why would you hire or fire somebody who was an effective prosecutor of fraud so forgive me if I have a hard time believing that Republicans are really taking fraud seriously this morning in the oversight committee they're talking about improper payments and fraud too and as you all know I started my career as a labor lawyer so I took notice when the AFL CIO submitted some suggestions on how to reduce unemployment insurance fraud
▶ 4:22:00and I would ask the chairman to submit this letter for the record um because they've got some great ideas on how to decrease unemployment fraud that doesn't result in Prosecuting hard hard working Americans without objection their number one suggestion get Elon Musk out I thank you and I yield back balance of my time Miss vany thank you I want to get back um to our actually job here uh and I want to take a break from some of the basic AC
▶ 4:22:31uh baseless accusations in this faint hysteria to actually work on what we're supposed to be working on let me put this into context according to federal law enforcement officials more than 2,000 IND individuals have been prosecuted for unemployment insurance fraud it's there are 1,400 convictions and the identification of more than 47 billion in potential fraudulent UI payments has been made as of January 28th of this year the US attorney's Management Systems office shows 1,648 open uncharged
▶ 4:23:01criminal M matters identified with the covid-19 fraud National initiative code doig has 157,000 open UI fraud complaints assigned to their hot their hotline office they have almost a thousand open UI fraud investigative matters assigned to their field offices which are actively being investigated without an extension which is exactly what we should be talking about today without an extension of the statute of limitations and additional resources the oig will be unable to review the vast majority of
▶ 4:23:31157,000 open UI fraud complaints it is the same fraud s that we are seeing committing this fraud over and over again I'd like to submit the following article for the record record while fire survivors blocked from FEMA assistance due to fraud in California government assistance programs continue to be the target target of fraudsters Carol and Cathy dcastro shut up bright and early hoping to get some assistance and relief after evacuating from the Altadena home with a couple of belongings and only the clothes
▶ 4:24:01on their backs after the wildfires the elderly Filipino American sisters were turned away after learning identities thieves stole their information when they asked for help FEMA reportedly advised sisters to check back with the agency in a couple of days quote there's no power there's no water there's no gas there is nothing and we can't go back these are real life situations of people right now who are being defrauded who are not receiving the help that they need and instead of talking about them we're
▶ 4:24:32talking about accusations I would like to be able to think that this Committee of all committees could rise above the uh the political theater the social media clip moments that are dramatizing an obsession that some of my colleagues seem to have on the sunlight that Elon Musk and his doge team are shining on waste Fraud and Abuse and actually focus on helping people let the decastro sisters that need it so much right now I yield the remainder
▶ 4:25:02of my time to Congressman Smith thank you I I briefly wanted to touch on you know the the accusation that you know there hasn't been a senate confirmation vote given to to someone who has access to some information I think it's important to note that uh this this very unique creature in federal law called the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau was created by an assistant to the Secretary of the Treasury I don't believe she was confirmed
▶ 4:25:32by the Senate creating this this massively powerful agency that according to the creator of the agency is out to save the world even though it probably duplicates a lot of what other agencies do I I just think it is absolutely important that we keep our focus on eliminating this waste and fraud that's what the American people want us to do and I think uh uh we can show some good results
▶ 4:26:03uh if we uh stick to that so gentlem it's not my time to yield but um Miss vany yielded it to me I will back to miss vany 30 seconds sure I would just point out that the consumer protection board unlike Elon Musk and his minions doesn't have access to Social Security numbers and medical history of individuals it's very sensitive information it's apples and oranges don't compare the two and I will yield
▶ 4:26:33back and I and I appreciate that but at the same token I think what you've seen is all these accusations have been absolutely baseless we've asked yesterday if any if any of this has happened it has not we've shown examples after example after example this is not happening let's discuss the issues that we should be discussing which is helping these people who need help right now and are being frauded millions billions of dollars are being taken they shouldn't be taken away instead of doing our job we were sitting here practicing political theater so that some of you can have social media Clips I yield back my
▶ 4:27:05time M Ben Chu I can't believe the lies being told about our federal workers especially in FEMA I am the one that represents a district that has been devastated by the Altadena and Pasadena fires and
▶ 4:27:35what I've seen is FEMA come down right from the start they work 12 to 14h hour days making sure that people get the help that they need right now they're going door too uh without them I don't know if these these 6,100 homeowners would be able to get any help in recovering from this devastating uh fire
▶ 4:28:05and a fact 20,000 people in my district are now homeless so I know what I'm talking talking about here I also cannot believe that we have a bill here that is attempting to go after fraud when the main person who went after unemployment fraud was fired and that is Inspector General Larry Turner it was inspector Turner himself who led
▶ 4:28:36the effort to fight fraud and his leadership in investigating UI fraud resulted in over 2,000 individuals being charged more than 1,400 convictions and 1.1 billion dollars in taxpayer dollars recovered he was a well-respected nonpartisan Senate confirmed professional he was even the witness for the Republican majority on
▶ 4:29:06the Committee hearing held on UI fraud back in 2023 outrageous that now this Republican majority wants to uh to have this bill fraud without even addressing the firing of this Inspector General let alone the 18 other nonpartisan inspector generals
▶ 4:29:36and the issue goes far beyond the Inspector General inspector General Turner led a team of over 300 federal employees including criminal investigators Auditors attorneys and other subject matter experts dedicated to combating waste and fraud in all Department of Labor's programs including UI like Inspector General Turner they are experienced professionals and are essential to our federal government's ability to keep going after pandemic
▶ 4:30:07unemployment fraud but the Trump administration's systemic attack on employees in an attempt to politicize and Shrink our civil service puts us at Great risk of losing this expertise and it includes sending mass emails to almost all federal employees urging them to resign and then threatening layoffs if not enough employees comply it also includes administration of proposals to politicize a federal Workforce by
▶ 4:30:37stripping nonpartisan federal employees of their job protections to make it EAS easier to replace them with inexperienced Loyalists and it includes it includes putting tens of thousands of employees on administrative leave cause like the Inspector General firings all these attacks threaten our ability to maintain a strong and competent Workforce of fraud investigators and prosecutors and it's irresponsible for our
▶ 4:31:07Republican colleagues to propose extending the statute of limitations so our federal government can continue going after fraud while allowing president Trump to fire or push out the very people who made this work possible in the first place and finally it's unacceptable that this bill would resend $5 million of funding that Congress appropriated on a bipartisan basis to the Department of Labor several years ago for
▶ 4:31:37the explicit purpose of detecting and preventing fraud and that in uh in in the very Department that we're talking about this funding is used on an ongoing basis for things like technology upgrades at the federal and state level to better prevent fraud and errors such as by improving identity verification I simply don't understand why we would resend key fraud prevention funding
▶ 4:32:08within a bill that purports to help our ability to fight fraud for these reasons I urge my colleagues to vote no on this bill and I yeld back Mr carry well thank you Mr chairman uh the one the one nice thing about being kind of one of the last people on the DI is you get to listen to a lot of things and you get to listen to my dear friends um on the Democratic side and you get to listen to my dear friends on the Republican side and it's a lot
▶ 4:32:38um you know one of the things that uh my dear friend Mr smucker mentioned was that Social Security actually had somebody on the somebody that was 150 years old that was actually taking social security I'm sure that Al Roker didn't uh put him on the Today Show 50 years ago but not only that there are 11 people in this country that are currently taking Social Security checks that are over 130 years old I'd like to find like to find those people like to find out what
▶ 4:33:08they're doing what they're eating but um any rate bottom line you know I'm sat here I listened to debate and I agreed to the to the left I agreed to the right so I decided because in uh in memory of uh our dear dear friend pratel who's obviously long long gone from us now Larson did a poem so I thought today while I was sitting here listening to this debate I would write my own so if you indulge me Mr chairman as a member who agrees
▶ 4:33:39with both sides on many things I cannot help but be troubled by the words that are just partisan dings can we not agree that we can get along because America is tired of the same old song we are better than this and we need to show that this committee together is together as we know we we care for each other and this is something that the public must see because for all of us we are united in Liberty
▶ 4:34:09so to the people who are watching our debate understand that we as members will not hesitate to do what is right for all those that we serve and one day stop this partisan curve this bill is good for all those who believe that the promise of America will be achieved I support this bill and I ask my colleagues to do the same with that I back we have all kinds of talents on this committee Mr
▶ 4:34:39Carrie um Miss thank you Mr chairman I you know this is really a classic case as the fox watching the hen house we've been reassured consistently that Mr um is making the decisions to dismantle government to impound
▶ 4:35:10funds that have been appropr created uh by this Congress on a bipartisan basis and signed into law uh and yet and and that yet he has so many conflicts of interest that 11 agencies 11 agencies were doing investigations into the contracts that M Mr musk has now here's someone I know none of us can earn
▶ 4:35:40more than $30,000 um as members of Congress because of the potential for uh conflicts of interest and yet the head of Doge just was it today or yesterday just received a 38 million doll contract uh and yet he is presiding over expenditures uh and
▶ 4:36:10dismantling agent gencies and determining what waste Feud and ab and and abuse are how do we know that this $38 million contract that he just received is not a waste you know who who is determining whether making our way to Mars is the priority that this Congress uh has or that it's not a conflict of interest
▶ 4:36:40you know president Trump has said quote if we thought that that he had conflicts of interest we would not let him do that or look into that area if we thought there was a lack of transparity or conflict of interest uh he said that he said that we watch that so here you got Elon Musk watching himself and the president watching him himself um as a special employment employee uh he's not accused himself of
▶ 4:37:10any matter like I said he decided to get rid of the cfpb uh once the cfpb was starting to look into these Hightech um agencies and agencies like cash app and PayPal and interests that he himself would like to move into so I I would say that while all of us may be interested
▶ 4:37:41in eliminating uh uh fraud abuse and waste um we have delegated these authorities you know article one functions to Elon Musk who clearly has uh many conflicts of interests uh he's leading a department um uh he has six companies including Tesla and space
▶ 4:38:11sex uh that are with the federal government and yet he is deciding uh to to pass judgment on whether or not there are appropriate expenditures being made I just want to know and I'd be willing to yield any time to any of the Republicans over there what the farmers in Wisconsin have done to have their USDA funds impounded and not distributed what
▶ 4:38:42what what waste Fraud and Abuse have has Elon Musk uncovered that would prevent these Farmers from getting reimbursements from the USDA I would yield no response no response and so uh I would I would urge my colleagues on the other side you know that if we're trying to uncover waste fraud and use
▶ 4:39:12that we not put unaccountable unelected un Senate uh uh appr proven officials billionaires who have conflicts of interest themselves who have contracts with the federal government in charge of routing out waste Fraud and Abuse and with that I would yield back my my time Horford thank you Mr chairman
▶ 4:39:42look I think two things can be true at the same time there is Need for reform in the federal government and the way we go about doing that matters um Mr Bean and other members of uh the committee that are that's looking into this know that there are Democrats on our side who are serious about working around efficiency uh implementing modernization rooting out waste
▶ 4:40:12Fraud and Abuse where it exists um and when we do that in a bipartisan way we transcend uh the politics which really should be about serving the American public that relies on the services from the federal government and I say this often uh I don't work for the federal government I work for 750,000 people in who elect me to do a
▶ 4:40:42job every two years and that's to hold the government accountable to them to make sure that the government is responsive to them and what's frustrating is I'm being given this binary Choice yeah the UI system needs Improvement I had a bill the guard act that would have modernized it because you can't just extend the statute of limitations to go after these criminal cartels if the very system that's being used
▶ 4:41:13is out ofd and archaic so are Republicans in agreement that we need to modernize these systems if so that there are there are Democrats on our side of the aisle who want to work with you but you know what's also true you can't say you're for fiscal responsibility and then introduce a resolution today that would raise the deficit by another $4.5
▶ 4:41:44trillion you can't sit here and lecture us that we need to tighten our belts and the American people are spending too much and then you introduced the Republican screw America bill that would literally raise the deficit another $4.5 trillion and then you're doing this by cutting essential services and yeah we're going to have this debate you
▶ 4:42:14want to cut Medicaid what does that mean for me it means nursing homes in my district means community health centers you want to cut the VA and privatize it that means veterans 15,000 who live in my district are going to be affected by decision you want to eliminate the cap on prescription drugs that we worked so hard to pass last Congress because you want to favor Pharma then we're going to take you to task
▶ 4:42:44every step of the way no Elon Musk is not accountable we have one president at a time Donald Trump was elected president of the United States not Elon Musk nobody voted for him or his hackers and he does not have the authority to conduct illegal data breaches to go after my constituents or your your constituents and what is so
▶ 4:43:14appalling about this is this bill is about UI security do you know what was caused by these criminal cartels the most during the pandemic they stole people's identity personal identity they stole business tax information your bill does nothing to address any of those issues so if we want to get serious then we have to call the
▶ 4:43:44thing a thing we need reform we need to make government more efficient but we're not going to do it on the backs of working people small businesses or the constituents who are depending upon us we're not going to do it and then favor giving tax breaks to the billionaires to Tech tycoons or to those who Curry favor with Donald Trump that is not what this Congress should be about it's not what the American people elected us to do
▶ 4:44:15um and we have a responsibility I don't I don't abdicate my responsibility to Elon Musk you want to find government waste then work with us to do it but don't delegate that responsibility to an unelected official who is causing chaos uh anxiety uh and all sorts of instability right now because he's doing it in a way that does not build up our country but works to tear it down with that I yield
▶ 4:44:45back Mr Schneider uh thank you and uh I apologize I'm going to interrupt my colleague from Ohio's conversation um Mr Carrie so uh I I want to commend you for your poetry skills but I also want to uh particularly commend you for your sentiment because the fact of the matter is there is so much that we have in common I think we all share a desire to try to make sure our government is working effectively and efficiently to seeking and eliminating waste Fraud and Abuse
▶ 4:45:16and I think if we could have a conversation that is focused on real actions we we could do a much better job serving the people we represent and while we do have things we we share many things each of us also bring to our work not just our life experiences but the the priorities as Mr hor horri is beautifully laid out the priorities and concerns of the people we represent each of us having districts that are distinct and that uh need need
▶ 4:45:46to be adequately represented so this is my plea to say there's so much more we can do if we work together but I also want want to point out we've had a lot of debate here about Alon musk who is unelected um and I I have heard the arguments from the other side that he is uh accountable I will tell you I have not seen the evidence of the accountability and if anything anyone who watched the press conference yesterday there are fair questions of who's actually uh driving the bus so to speak
▶ 4:46:16and there's no question on the surface but I think it doesn't take much to dig down that there are extraordinary conflicts of interest uh this is someone who has not just one company with engagements and contracts uh with the United States government but multiple companies uh I take it a step further we need to approach our work and the work of government uh thoughtfully uh with due consideration and deliberation but that's not what we're seeing from Mr musk and and
▶ 4:46:46his his uh lieutenants minions I'm going to me try to measure my words uh and it's not a matter of Doge using a meat cleaver when he should be using a scalpel it's literally a matter of we're seeing musk and his team steamrolling into uh agencies and you can run down the list usaid where the secretary of state has to then go and try to clean up CIA Social Security the list goes on and the people who are doing this work are
▶ 4:47:17people who haven't been vetted they haven't been approved by the sen they don't have the same uh controls so I think what you were hearing us calling for is that if we are going to approach our work as representatives of each of our respective uh districts we should be demanding that whoever is working to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of our government does so with transparency so we can conduct our responsibility for oversight
▶ 4:47:47does so with consideration so we can make sure that the programs that serve our constituents the work that is protecting and advancing us interests at home and around the world are being protected in a way that we ensure the interest of the United States at home and around the world so this has been a a frustrating uh morning and afternoon to say the least as accusations have have flown uh accusing people's motivations
▶ 4:48:18I think again as Mr kery said we are all here with many things we share we are all committed to trying to make sure our government works for the American people and we should make sure it works for the American people led by those the American people elected to serve them and carry the public trust I yield back thank you gentlemen any others to strike the last word Miss flasket thank you I
▶ 4:48:48was getting kind of lost there but I appreciate the opportunity to speak a little bit about this bill um you know investigating and Prosecuting fraud of public sector support systems is important if we're ever going to maintain these systems which are supposed to exist to provide a helping hand for Americans in their moment of dire need and as a former prosecutor I know that you cannot send your investigative resources to run down rabbit holes that harm
▶ 4:49:18innocent people every day everyday Americans and do little to go actually after the real harms which cost American taxpayers at an even greater scale so we're focused on a small piece when we could be looking at the large piece I get it in many ways my Republican colleagues are looking at this as a whole environment with hard eyes hard eyes of a predator in search of prey this
▶ 4:49:49is not what we should be doing I'm going to urge my colleagues to consider the wisdom of a very important person homicide detective bunk Morin many of you may know him from uh the TV show The Wire played by my good friend Wendell Pierce the bunk would remind other Detectives if you got soft eyes you can see the whole thing but if you got hard eyes you end up staring at the same tree
▶ 4:50:20missing the entire Forest I have a great deal of concern when it comes to the application of this legislation in this current Lawless environment that we have where the president and his cronies are attacking organizations like Lutheran Social Services Catholic Charities and others work that is keeping young men in developing countries from joining things Al-Qaeda they're going straight for Fort Knox at the treasury's
▶ 4:50:50payment systems and disregarding the law themselves I simply don't trust any new Inspector General to earnestly and honestly investigate wrongdoing when we weren't interested in rehiring or the firing of the inspector generals that were there doing the job before in other places we know that Elon Musk president Trump have pushed our inspector General's and mass and Nothing is Stopping them from pushing out another
▶ 4:51:20IG who does not do their bidding for this reason I can't trust a new IG in this Administration would appropriately Target any criminal gang ring we've got 64 billion in PPP fraud Which business owners around America are reported to have engaged in 64 billion with a B where is the investigation on that where is the concern from my colleagues
▶ 4:51:51on that it's not there because that's not who the president and Elon Musk are telling them to go after they want to go after a regular everyday Americans going after the small trees when there's an entire Forest around us that no one is looking at I keep hearing well what harm have they done what harm have they done well they've lied to us already by saying that they only had read only access
▶ 4:52:21to our information now we're learning in court affidavits under sworn affidavits where they have to then tell the truth that in fact some of them could have gotten write and read and as well as edit so when I'm having someone when a police officer would come to me as a prosecutor and say that someone has burglarized somebody I don't think go to the consumer and ask them can you quantify the harm that was done to you by that person
▶ 4:52:51stealing the material from you it's a crime but that is not what my colleagues are interested in because they're scared they're scared they need to pass this $4 trillion doll debt onto somebody and it's going to be children in Africa it's going to be the middle class it's going to be your grandmother who's not going to get her insulin not going to get her social security check at the level it is supposed to children
▶ 4:53:21are not going to get Medicaid children are going to go hungry we created school lunch programs because our military said that Americans joining War had unhealthy physiques their bodies were not ready for war and now we're going to go back to that and and it's going to be the ones that need it the most that are not going to be fed therefore not going to be able to learn therefore going to drop out of school therefore create crime therefore it be involved in mass incarceration
▶ 4:53:52listen up people what's really going on here I back the Gent lady yields back any other members like to strict the last word seeing none are there any amendments I'm Sorry Miss Chu stract the last word no uh Amendment an amendment okay thank you Mr chairman I reserve a point of order the gentleman reserves lady May we
▶ 4:54:22okay distri oh we got to get the amendment out we get the amendment out remember change mind oh yeah for
▶ 4:55:10excellent excellent excellent Excell Mr you may proceed thank you Mr chair this underlined Bill purports to go after the criminal fraud Rings who stole from our pandemic unemployment insurance programs but the bill completely ignores the fact that one day after his inauguration President Trump illegally fired the Inspector General who was responsible
▶ 4:55:41for doing that very work of uncovering fraud Inspector General Larry Turner was a well respected nonpartisan Senate confirmed professional whose leadership investigating UI fraud had already resulted in over 2,000 individuals charged more than 1,400 convictions and 1.1 billion in taxpayer dollars recovered and Inspector General even testified
▶ 4:56:11as a witness for the Republican majority for a hearing that this committee held on UI fraud back in 20123 my Amendment would extend the current 5-year statute of limitations by six months and would provide for an additional extension to the full 10 years proposed in the underlying Bill only if by the end of those six months the president either reappoints Inspector General Larry Turner or appoints another
▶ 4:56:42Senate confirmed individual to serve as Inspector General for the Department of Labor by providing a six-month extension my Amendment would keep the door open on investigating and Prosecuting the fraud however we must ensure that any longer extension of the statute of limitations is conditioned on having a competent Senate confirmed Inspector General leading the charge if Republicans are serious about combating and Prosecuting UI
▶ 4:57:12fraud Democrats are eager to work with you to push back against President Trump's illegal firing of our nation's top UI fraud investigator and to get Mr Turner and the other independent nonpartisan inspector generals across our federal government whom the president illegally removed back on the job I urge support for my Amendment and now I would like to yield the remainder of my time to Congress member Del Benny um I want to thank congresswoman Chu for this thoughtful
▶ 4:57:42amendment to remind people uh also that less than three weeks ago president Trump illegally fired 18 Senate confirmed inspectors General and a 19th was illegally fired just last night after releasing a report critical of the Trump administration's efforts to dismantle usaid these independent non-partisan Watchdogs are charged with rooting out government waste Fraud and Abuse and it's particularly ironic that we're talking about extending the statute
▶ 4:58:12of limitations for unemployment insurance fraud yet the agency now lacks An Inspector General to do just that without inspector's General there's no accountability for agency mismanagement and Americans end up paying for it with their tax dollars protecting the independence of inspectors General shouldn't be a partisan issue and in fact until president Trump assumed office it wasn't which is why I would like to submit oversight committee chairman
▶ 4:58:43Comer's press release from January 88th 2025 for the record um it reads I quote I applaud the Department of Labor Office of the inspector General's efforts to hold frauders accountable for stealing billions from pandemic unemployment relief programs um we will continue to support the Inspector General and federal law enforcement's efforts to hold accountable those who are defrauding the American people end quote um I applaud
▶ 4:59:13chairman Comer's pledge to support our country's former number one investigator of unemployment Assurance um but he should be calling for his return if he really believes this if Republicans want to join us to tackle government inefficiency and save taxpayer dollars we should reinstate Inspector General Turner and all of the illegally fired inspectors General and restore government accountability and transparency if you want to talk about transparency
▶ 4:59:44and accountability we should be talking about the inspector's General and the other side um of the Das has been incredibly silent about what's happened here so I urge my colleagues to vote Yes and again Mr chairman I'd like to submit this for the record with that objection thank you I yield back justes the gentle lady wishes to uh withdraw her Amendment the amendment start
▶ 5:00:22Jermaine this is not the right way to treat a loyal servant who's fought fraud but I will withdraw the amendment the gentle lady wishes to withdraw her Amendment wishes are there further amendments are there further amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute thomp Mr Thompson you are recognized I reserve a point
▶ 5:00:52of order chairman on order is reserved I will pass the gentleman will suspend while we pass out the the gentleman May proceed thank you Mr chairman you know as I mentioned in my opening uh statement I agreed
▶ 5:01:22to uh work with you and U my Republican colleagues to extend these statute this statute of limitation matter fact it was my amendment in the last uh in the last uh Congress that U brought this before this committee uh the M I have today removes the budget offset provision and returns this bill to its negotiated text the text that we agreed on we agreed on
▶ 5:01:52it passed here passed was made it into the Senate um uh legislation and the important thing is we agreed across party lines to do it in the way that it was originally drafted and I believe that it's important for us to work together and I also believe it's important to honor bipartisan agreements while I agree that legislation must be paid for and it's also my belief that Prosecuting
▶ 5:02:23and recovering fraud would pay for itself uh I'm willing to work across the aisle and find a pay for that does not limit our work in preventing future fraud as was pointed out by myself and others uh members of the committee the way the bill is currently drafted it neglects the efforts being made to go after uh and prevent fraud uh in the outline years
▶ 5:02:54um I'd be willing to withdraw this amendment uh if I could get a commitment from the chairman that you would work with the Dem with us Democrats to find a more suitable pay for prior to voting for this bill on the floor I can't make that a commitment but we'll certainly
▶ 5:03:24uh continue to listen to everything you have to say we'll go from there you've already listened to what I have to say that's all that's all you have to say well no actually now I have more to say you have two minutes and 44 seconds worth yeah and I'll try and squeeze it in um we all agree that this is important uh we agreed in the last Congress when I brought this amendment forward we agreed when chairman Smith agreed to work with me to come up with legislation
▶ 5:03:54that would be able to do this and we found that Common Ground we have the had the bill we had the amendment and for some reason uh it was changed to include this provision that takes money away from fraud programs everybody today has said that they agree we need to be going after fraud why in the world would would we reduce the funding for
▶ 5:04:24the programs that in fact reduce fraud in order to quote unquote pay for this so as I say if if you would agree to help find a different pay for to work with us to find that that that different pay for that doesn't jeopardize our anti-fraud efforts or withdraw the amendment does the gentleman y
▶ 5:04:55back is that we is that a a non- answer well we'll have uh we'll have some conversation about your Amendment with our side I Yi back gentleman yields uh any member wish to speak on the Mr smucker thank you and I'd be glad to respond to the to the request so this this of course um is addressing we think about 100 billion in fraud or some some number of that result and there's a $5
▶ 5:05:25million cost in this that is due to a CBO score that assumes that we will need uh to expend that for the recordkeeping and the administration um the cares act currently includes un cap funding for any cost of administration and do has the authority to fully reimburse states without any additional action from Congress but uh again the 5 million uh is the the CBO score that needs to be addressed and without this in the bill make it impossible
▶ 5:05:55to move the bill forward uh and would fail to recognize the impact on on States and so I urge my colleagues to vote no on this amendment with the gentleman yield sure sure I I agree that that's what what what we're looking at um the the fact is as you stated if the bill were if the if the uh statute of limitations were increased we'd more than recoup all the money that we're talking about in the administrative costs but I get it
▶ 5:06:26that the rules say you've got to identify a pay for for that little bit of uh of administrative cost my point is why would we take that out of a program that we all agree is important to deter future fraud so if we could if we could come up with a different pay for to meet this rule that we all are confronted with from time to time uh I'd be good with it
▶ 5:06:56but if not um I I can't I I can't go along with uh with this bill well again it's it's 5 million uh which is a very very small amount compared to the total that could be recovered from extending this and so you know I think for the purposes of of um passing this amendment today which is really or this bill today which is really important I'm going to still continue to urge my college to vote
▶ 5:07:26no because we don't currently have an agreement on a different uh pay for than what is uh is outlined in the bill the Gent heels back any other member like to strict the last word on amendment I want I want to vote on the amendment so the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr Thompson
▶ 5:07:56California all those in favor but signify by saying I I those opposed no in the opinion of the chair the NOS roll call NOS have it Roll Call has been requested the clerk will call the rooll Mr banan no Mr banan no Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr Smith of Nebraska no Mr Kelly
▶ 5:08:27Mr schwier Mr schwier no Mr L Hood Mr Arrington Estus Mr Estus no Mr smucker Mr smucker no Mr
▶ 5:08:57Hearn Mr Hearn no Mrs Miller Mrs Miller now Dr Murphy Mr kustoff Mr kustoff no Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick no Mr stuby Mr stuie no Miss Tenny Miss
▶ 5:09:27tinny no Mrs fishbach no Mrs fishbach no Mr Moore Mr Moore no vany Mr finstra Mr finra no Miss malot Tas Miss malot Takis
▶ 5:09:58no Mr Cary Mr Cary no Mr yakum Mr yakum no Mr Miller Mr Miller no Mr Bean Mr Bean no Mr Moran Mr Neil Mr Neil yes Mr dogget Mr dogget yes Mr
▶ 5:10:29Thompson Mr Thompson yes Mr Larsson Mr lson yes Mr Davis Mr Davis yes Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez yes Miss Su yes Miss Su yes Miss Del Ben Miss Del Ben yes Miss Chu Miss Chu yes Miss Moore Miss Moore yes Mr
▶ 5:11:00Bole Mr berer Mr Byer yes Mr Evans Mr Evans yes Mr SCH schider Mr Schneider yes Mr Panetta Mr Panetta yes Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford yes Miss plasket Miss plasket yes Mr swazi Mr swasi
▶ 5:11:34yes how is Mr Moran recorded Mr Moran is not recorded Mr Moran no Mr L Hood Mr Le hood No Mr Arrington Mr Arrington no Dr Murphy Miss vanine
▶ 5:12:20Bole Mr boil yes Mr Gomez how is Miss Beth vany recorded Miss vany is not recorded Miss vany no Mr Gomez chairman Smith no chairman Smith
▶ 5:12:55no the clerk will report the vote the yeses are 18 the NOS are 24 there being 18 yeses and 24 NOS the amendment is not agreed to are there additional see no further amendments the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute all those in favor signify by saying I I I those opposed say no no in the opinion of the chair the eyes
▶ 5:13:26have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to I will now recognize Mr Buchanan for the purposes of offering a motion Mr chairman I move the committee favorably report HR 1156 as amended to the House of Representatives the question is on the motion to favorably report HR 1156 as amended to the House of Representatives the clerk will call the rooll Mr banan yes Mr banan yes Mr Smith of Nebraska Mr Smith of Nebraska yes
▶ 5:13:56Mr Kelly Mr schwier Mr lahood Mr L Hood yes Mr Arrington Mr Arrington yes Estus Mr Estus yes Mr smucker Mr smucker yes Mr Hearn Mr Hearn yes Mrs Miller Mrs Miller yes Dr
▶ 5:14:28Murphy Mr kustoff Mr kustoff yes Mr Fitzpatrick Mr Fitzpatrick yes Mr stubie yes Mr stuie yes yes Miss Tenny Miss Tenny yes Mrs fishbach yes Mrs fishbach yes Mr Moore Mr Moore yes Miss vany Miss vany yes Mr finstra Mr
▶ 5:14:58finstra yes Miss malot Takis Miss malot takus yes Mr Cary Mr Cary yes Mr yak Mr yakum yes Mr Miller Mr Miller yes Mr Bean Mr Bean yes Mr Moran Mr Moran yes Neil Mr Neil no Mr dogget Mr dogget no
▶ 5:15:35Thompson Mr Thompson no Mr Mr Larson Mr Larson no Mr Davis Mr Davis no Miss Sanchez Miss Sanchez no Miss Miss no Miss Del Ben Miss Del Ben no Miss Chu Miss Chu no Miss Moore Miss Moore no Mr Bole
▶ 5:16:06Mr Bole no Mr B Mr berer no Mr Evans Mr Mr Evans no Mr Schneider Mr Schneider no Mr Panetta Mr Panetta no Mr Gomez Mr Horford Mr Horford no Miss plaset Miss plaset no
▶ 5:16:37Mr swazi Mr swazi no Mr schwier yes Mr schwier yes Dr Murphy
▶ 5:17:12Gomez chairman Smith yes chairman Smith yes the clerk will report the vote the yeses are 24 the NOS are 18 there being 24 yeses and 18 knows the motion is agreed to and HR 1156
▶ 5:17:42as amended is ordered favorably reported to the house without objection I ask that staff be authorized to make Technical and conforming changes to HR 1156 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views there being no further business before the committee the committee stands