▶ 0:10:58e e
▶ 0:11:56committee will come to order um good good afternoon everyone the committee will uh just so you know I'm glad uh to be here today and consider my bill hr40 472 the restore VA accountability Act of 2025 also HR 1041 the veterans second amendment protection act HR 740 the veterans access Act of 2025 now we will also be discussing a dis
▶ 0:12:26uh a discussion draft related to information the secretary is allowed to transmit to the Department of Justice related to the Second Amendment issues finally we will consider uh Miss Ramirez's Bill uh the student uh veteran benefit restoration Act of 2025 before I discuss the bills before us today I would first like to welcome all of our Witnesses who are here to testify on this legislation before us
▶ 0:12:57uh we have uh discussed at length each of the issues these bills would address in multiple oversight hearings and through out through letters and traveled outside the Beltway to listen to the men and women who work at VA and the veterans that they serve to fix these problems now that this is uh this is what each of these bills would do is fix a significant problem that exists in the VA now I'm sure the ranking member will
▶ 0:13:27suggest otherwise during his comments and he is welcome to continue to disagree um I remain concerned by the uh rhetoric uh base talking points and and fearmongering coming from our friends on the other side of the aisle despite this I am focused on action on behalf of the millions of men and women who serve from the uh from uh my and from my seat as chairman that is what the American people elected us to do and that is what the house Republican majority will deliver on
▶ 0:13:58none of the bills on today's agenda are new or should come to a shock as to anyone in fact we marked two of them up last Congress I should also point out that the ranking member voted for VA accountability act in 2017 along with the mission Act of 2018 when they both passed with large bipartisan majorities with that I am proud to have introduced my bill HR 472 the restore VA accountability Act of 2025 again this Congress
▶ 0:14:28my bill would codify congress's intent in 2017 to protect veterans care and the taxpayers investment by holding VA employees accountable the Biden Harris Administration repeatedly protected employees who were accused of all kinds of misconduct from dis uh disturbing sexual harassment uh to racism to senior Executives incorrectly pocketing funds
▶ 0:14:59to poor patient care our our investigation list was long and continues to grow and holding people accountable who failed the veterans they are they are in charge of serving has taken far too long now under president's Trump leadership accountability is back at VA veterans not protecting Bureau veterans uh not protecting bureaucrats is our mission once again
▶ 0:15:29this means providing exponential services to Veterans uh essential services to Veterans uh by building a worldclass Workforce at the VA the VA Workforce is the second largest bureaucracy in the world my legislation would protect those employees who come to work every day and do the right thing and I am 100% confident that most VA employees want to do good work but and time again
▶ 0:16:00members on both sides of the aisle have heard from whistleblowers that bad employees continue to serve as a distraction from the mission right now VA does not have the ability to hold these bad employees accountable this has a direct impact on the delivery of services across VA we must ask ourselves if bad employees know they will not face consequences then what is is the incentive
▶ 0:16:30to correct the Behavior now I am glad to uh when I'm grateful to the over 15 organizations who support my bill and I look forward to the discussion today and I'm proud to also have introduced the my bill HR 1041 the veterans second amendment protection act my bill would prohibit VA from sending a veteran's name to the FBI's national uh instant Criminal background check system
▶ 0:17:00unless a judge or a Court decides that the person could be a danger to themselves or others in some cases VA will appoint a fiduciary to a veteran to help them manage their VA benefits and finances the appointment of a fiduciary has nothing to do with uh D somebody being dangerous it is about the veterans ability to manage
▶ 0:17:30their financial benefits but the minute VA appoints a fiduciary that Veteran's name is automatically sent to n in every other system a person must be found to be a dangerous be a danger by a judge based on the evidence being reported to nck but our veterans are are reported to next without the same due
▶ 0:18:01process as others who have not worn the uniform my message remains simple VA should not be able to take away a veterans second amendment rights without due process simply because they need help managing their finances veterans should not be treated any different than every other American citizen we know this practice creat a stigma around
▶ 0:18:31accessing veterans critical VA care and services it is to time to stop it this bill is not about guns on demand it's about giving veterans the same due process as every other American we also have a discussion uh Draft before us today that would fix how VA has already reported over 250,000 veterans to next without due process
▶ 0:19:01solely because they have a fiduciary I look forward to today's discussion about this bill and I'm proud to have introduced my bill HR 740 the veterans access of 20125 the bill the house Republican bill would Safeguard a veteran right to health care that they want whether in community or inh house ensuring veterans have access to life savings mental health care and treatment
▶ 0:19:32Place veterans not bureaucrats back in control seat of their own health care decisions it will make clear that Community Care is VA care me say that again Community Care is VA care the access act would ensure va's focus is Veterans not bureaucracy VA Healthcare is some of the best health care in the world but
▶ 0:20:03only when it fully relies on the Assets in the community but this bill ensures that we uphold the promise of President Trump and House Republicans Mission act to ensure that veterans receive care they deserve we drafted this leg legislation following two reports of V Bureau rats during the Biden Harris Administration who were actively working to
▶ 0:20:33keep veterans health care inhouse that is unacceptable I've said it before I'll say it again the mission Act is not optional it's the law my bill makes this message perfectly clear I'm looking forward to a thoughtful discussion on the legislation before us today so that we can make a meaningful impact for veterans this Congress I now now yield to ranking member Toano for his opening
▶ 0:21:03remarks well thank you Mr chairman uh in the audience and watching the live stream today we have we are joined by former VA employees who were illegally and suddenly terminated by President Trump since he took office on January 20th these are Americans many of them veterans and Military spouses who are now unemployed and I want to tell a few of their stories an operating operating manag an operations
▶ 0:21:33uh excuse me an operations manager at in VBA who served nine years in the Air Force before continuing his service at VA he is 100% service connected all of his performance evaluations were outstanding or fully successful now jobless thanks to Trump an it an IT specialist in va's financial technology services she's a veteran spouse and her performance was outstanding she told us her family
▶ 0:22:04depends on her income they are now left scrambling to figure out how to pay their bills and what they're going to do for health insurance thanks to Trump an app pellet attorney in the office of general counsel he is 100% service connected disabled veteran with two braon stars who served on four combat deployments he had nine days until the end of his probationary period fired by President Trump a training specialist for the
▶ 0:22:34Warriors to Workforce program nearly eight years of service in the Navy he had moved his family from Colorado to Maryland just to work at VA he is his family's bread winner now jobless thanks to Trump these are just a few of the many responses committee Democrats have received from VA employees veterans and mil milary spouses we are gathering information about these Reckless firings as a part of our
▶ 0:23:04oversight responsibilities and it is absolutely heartbreaking heartbreaking to hear from these Americans who were victims of the illegal Doge Purge we are in the midst of a constitutional crisis unlike any America has ever faced our Dem our democracy hangs in the balance the guard rails that check and balance our system system of governance are rapidly weakening our institutions are literally being dismantled
▶ 0:23:35presidents musk and Trump continue their blatantly illegal and unconstitutional Rampage which is premised on the belief that we won't notice and that my Republican colleagues continue to ignore we won't care that we won't care uh as we see Neighbors and Friends harmed by these actions we cannot pretend that this is normal or right this is not government efficiency this is not fixing the bureaucracy
▶ 0:24:06it is destruction now my colleagues across the aisle accuse us of partisan fear-mongering and hysteria as they yell and Fain outrage and I'm sure they will continue to do so today because they don't want the public to learn the truth that the illegal and unconstitutional actions taken by musk and Trump are directly harming veterans and their families veterans are already suffering under this regime and anyone who denies that is not telling the truth
▶ 0:24:36the outrage should be directed at this at what is really happening many of those VA employees who lost their job since January 20th were HR professionals their terminations along with a rumored lockout from HR software and USA jobs are already directly impacting va's ability to on board Mission critical positions like Physicians nurses and disability claim Raiders we've also heard that Doge
▶ 0:25:07canell a contract that VHA uses to recruit Health Care Providers without the ability to recruit doctors VA cannot sustain a stable Health Care Workforce to make to meet the needs of veterans we have talked to Veterans whose Access to Health Care has been directly impacted by employee terminations we know new clinics that would increase access to care cannot open due to shortages this is the truth and is our responsibility as
▶ 0:25:37members of Congress to tell these stories and to demand transparency from VA now I'm appalled that we are even here today considering the restore VA accountability act this bill makes absolutely no sense if we open our eyes to what is happening at VA with the ongoing Purge of employees based on lies why would we even think about giving VA more authority to fire employees when they are haphazardly and illegally terminated employees
▶ 0:26:07as we speak last week the office of Inspector General released a report that revealed United Health Group and tri West Healthcare profited and pocketed nearly 1 billion dollars in not 1 billion taxpayer dollars in overpayments from through the Community Care program that these two thirdparty administrators have decided they just don't want to pay back why are we
▶ 0:26:37considering a bill that would further enrich United healthc Care Group and tri West Healthcare when they are caught up in a legal dispute with VA over the money that they owe back to the government now I want to share one final story from a terminated VA employee she is a service connected disabled veteran of the Marine Corp a military spouse of 23 years and a federal employee for the last seven with outstanding performance reviews she is now facing
▶ 0:27:08immense emotional and financial distress she writes I have given my life to serving this country now I ask my country to stand by me with that I yield back Mr chairman I thank the ranking member uh um you know I've said it once and I'll say it again you know I trust secretary Collins is doing the right thing for veterans and taxpayers to effectively
▶ 0:27:38rightsize and recognize VA to work better for the men and women it serves one because he is a veteran himself two because he knows the mission that he is serving and the veterans that he is serving I believe my colleagues on the other side the aisle have lost sight of va's mission as chairman of the VA as veteran and a veteran myself my mission is the same veterans are
▶ 0:28:09my number one priority not protecting bureaucracy we would be better we would be lying if we said that everything at the VA is perfect and that there aren't any improvements to be made to make an agency work better that includes the I take secretary Collins at his word when he says there will be no impact to the delivery of care benefits and services for veterans with this plan
▶ 0:28:39my colleagues on the other side of the aisle continue to spread false information about what's happening uh to uh scare and use veterans because they have no real plan for the American people the fear mongering needs to stop I think it's amazing that now here we are with the decisions we're trying to make to make it better that during the last Administration we had a time when
▶ 0:29:09our oversight discovered that we had one VA that ran a Sex Room in their VA and we didn't fire the employees that actually were involved with it and now we're saying oh no no we can't do that we had administrators that where we were supposed to be giving bonuses to the Frontline workers the docks the Frontline workers the nurses and instead they gave it
▶ 0:29:40to the admin they gave that but they also gave a 20 sit bonuses at times to those administrators right here in DC that get paid a whole lot more than those docs and nurses but yet nobody said anything now here we are we are watching them reduce a staff situation and I I I you know what if you're the person that is that that were mentioned you know I'm I'm athetic with that the
▶ 0:30:10concerns that you have reach out to your Congress going to reach out to our office and say okay here's what my job was we'll try to work through that but let me tell you that just turnover itself reduces our staffing by that much about once a month understand this the amount of numbers that are being put out there are less 1% less than 1% to help to try to straighten
▶ 0:30:40out a bureaucracy that's running wild that and if we can take those dollars and shift them over to try to more suicide from happening to provide better quality Care in those in those programs that actually are working how do you tell that to the taxpayers how do you tell that to the taxpayers VA
▶ 0:31:11has reduced its Workforce by less than 1% as I just said all of employees were in their probationary period and have an appeals process if they believe that there is was not done properly there is a process by which you can appeal I will also say that VA has a record hiring surged last year the former Administration acknowledges many times over that they over hired
▶ 0:31:41and were hoping to manage the problem through turnover that wasn't done we are in the POS in this position because of Biden Harrison Administration couldn't manage their budget and irresponsibly over hired employees now my um they they go on and and and leave out details uh in the midst of their rallies and press conferences and fear-mongering they don't mention
▶ 0:32:11the fact that that's the case that we over hir we've heard this song and dance before and I hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle will stop using veterans and their families for postering as I said before I trust secretary Collins president Trump are doing the right thing for millions of veterans at the VA as long as I'm chairman I will continue to focus on the results from those men and women with that let's get back to the business at hand
▶ 0:32:42and I would this time would now like to recognize representative Ramirez to testify about her legislation that we're discussing here today thank you chairman I appreciate earlier today I had an opportunity to be in our joint hearing and hear from many veteran service organizations on the incredible work that
▶ 0:33:12that they're doing and also on the request that they have for us to make sure that we're protecting all of the veteran benefits um that we all say we care so deeply about so I'm grateful to be here with you now to talk about an important bill that I introduced last Congress as someone that gets to 20727 diverse veterans I take this job very seriously it's why I continue to be part of this Committee in my
▶ 0:33:42second term in Congress and it's an honor of my life to represent Illinois third congressional district advancing policies that improve the lives of my constituents ensuring that every single veteran has access to the benefits that they've earned and that we've promised them access to affordable quality education is one of those benefits the GI bill is a critically important policy that makes educational opportunities affordable and accessible to Veterans and we know veterans
▶ 0:34:13are diverse I mean we were just talking about that in a committee a couple uh weeks ago and when we talk about veterans we're not just talking about veterans of because of race but we're talking about women we're talking about first generation veterans we're talking about low veterans we're talking about people of color we're talking about lgbtqi veterans and deported veterans yes because there are veterans uh that go fight for our country and because of trauma PTSD uh come back to the country that they love
▶ 0:34:43and then they find themselves in a difficult situation that gets them deported we're talking about every single veteran including them and as a result of the diversity they have diverse interests and diverse educational needs so ensuring that they have the ability to choose a school that best meets their need while being confident that regardless of their choice they will receive a high quality education is one of my top priorities however in recent years student veterans have been targeted by Bad actors seeking to enrich
▶ 0:35:13themselves by exploiting veterans GI benefits those actors have reduced those who have served our nation to a tuition payment and exploited them to gain access to a Dependable Federal dispersement and folks that's when a student veteran is defrauded by a bad faith actor it's only right only just that the veteran have recourse or a way for them to get their benefits back no student veteran should have to give up or defer their dreams of an education because of Fraud
▶ 0:35:44and that is why I'm so proud to say that the very first bill I ever introduced as a member of Congress was the student veterans benefit restor restoration act which would begin the process of restoring G GI Bill education benefits for student veterans who have been defrauded by an educational institution the bill last Congress passed the house with bipartisan support 46 votes in favor but we also know that the bill moved
▶ 0:36:14us just a step closer to having a comparable restoration process to those that govern the federal benefits of non veteran uh students that is why I am so proud to reintroduce my bill again this Congress the student veteran benefit restoration Act of 2025 is stronger and offers our student veterans more comprehensive protections the bill I introduced this Congress my 1 of the 119 offer student veterans who have been defrauded by predatory institutions
▶ 0:36:44the following protections it includes mandatory restoration which means benefits could be automatically restored in cases of fraud loss of approval or even legal action the bill also expands the fraud scope which means my bill would include Court rulings and doj closures in addition to VA investigations for restoration the bill also provides a separate appeals process created for schools who want to challenge the repayment determinations
▶ 0:37:15and it includes an explicit fraud definition it defines fraud as including false misleading and deceptive acts we have more work to do to protect our veterans from bad faith actors and make certain that they have every single opportunity to live a meaningful thriving and joyful life post service and this Bill gets us closer to that thank you to all of my colleagues in this committee to the ranking member to the chairman for your support last
▶ 0:37:45Congress and I look forward to getting this bill pass this Congress out of the house then the Senate and sign a law and I look for I look forward to working with every one of you to make that happen thank you chairman I yield back I also look forward to it passing as well um I would like at TH this time to welcome our first panel uh if everyone would please come to
▶ 0:38:17front testifying before us today we have Miss Beth Murphy acting principal Deputy under secretary for benefits at the veterans benefit Administration for the US Department of of Affairs she is accompanied by Miss Tracy thir thir is correct Chief Human uh Capital officer at the office of human resources and operation uh security
▶ 0:38:47and uh preparedness for the Department of Affairs does that fit on a business card that's pretty long and Dr uh uh sh Yen yende and chief medical officer uh in integrated veterans care at the veterans Health Administration for uh the at the department Veterans Affairs I ask the witnesses to please stand and raise their right
▶ 0:39:19hands do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you and let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative Miss Murphy hi I now recognize you for five minutes for your testimony good afternoon chairman Bost ranking member Tano and members of the committee thank you for the invitation to present our views on pending legislation
▶ 0:39:49that would affect Department of Veterans Affairs programs and services accompanying me today is Miss Tracy theet uh Chief human capital officer office of human resources and administration Operations Security and preparedness Dr sanin yandi chief medical officer for vha's integrated uh veterans care VA offers support for much of the proposed legislation before us today first VA supports HR 1391 the student
▶ 0:40:20veterans benefit restoration act which would restore VA education benefits for veterans affected by deceptive educ ational institution practices VA believes the institution not the students should repay all covered assistance including payments directly to students to ensure this VA recommends amending the bill to require institutions to reimburse both direct student payments and tuition funds received from VA preventing veterans from bearing the burden of repayment
▶ 0:40:50VA also supports HR 1041 the second amendment protection act um and the named Second Amendment bill but also notes risks with both aspects of the bills VA has continuously complied with all legal reporting requirements to the Department of Justice for recording individuals on the national instant criminal background check system or NX when VA determines a veteran unable to manage their Affairs HR 1041
▶ 0:41:21would require an evaluative consideration in addition to a VA incompetency decision to determine whether the veterans mental capacity warrants ni reporting additionally VA notes that 10 HR 1041 would neither remove nor amend doj's policies and procedures when enforcing the Brady handgun violence protection act doj defines mental defective as any individual who lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage uh their own
▶ 0:41:51Affairs uh to avoid putting the veteran at risk of facing criminal liability when purchasing a firearm arm VA recommends including legislative language that would clearly exempt an individual deemed incompetent for purposes of the VA fiduciary program from being considered a mental defective as defined by doj however I want to make it clear Mr chairman that if passed VA will continue to comply with federal law and Implement both bills as written VA does wish
▶ 0:42:21to note that we continue to take veteran Suicide Prevention extremely seriously one example of our efforts is that effective February 14th 2025 VA in collaboration with veterans Health Administration requires the distribution of two new fact sheets on gun safety storage and suicide awareness to perspective fiduciaries during the appointment process reinforcing va's commitment to veteran safety VA also
▶ 0:42:51hr4 472 the restore accountability Act of 25 with amendments to strengthen its disciplinary authorities legal challenges to the VA accountability act have weakened its distinction with existing laws prompting VA to advocate for modifications to 38 us code sections 712 713 and 714 to enhance accountability reduce litigation risk and ensure disciplinary actions stand
▶ 0:43:22VA welcomes the opportunity to engage in technical assistance to address these VA will continue to take disciplinary action under ex uh applicable existing authorities providing certainty and minimizing legal risk to VA while working with Congress to address the legal risks identified in the draft Bill finally VA strongly supports the intent of HR 740 the veterans access Act of 2025 proposed by chairman Bost which directly aligns with secretary
▶ 0:43:52Collins's focus on providing timely care for eligible veterans the the bill would codify va's access standards strengthen referral processes and expand options for mental health residential Rehab Care it also establishes a standardized screening process for residential mental health care and requires real-time weight times tracking across facilities VA is steadfast in its commitment to refining processes strengthening provider networks and working with
▶ 0:44:23Congress to ensure timely care for veterans we appreciate the committee's leaders ship and look forward to advancing these and similar solutions that prioritize veterans Mr chairman that concludes my statement thank you again for the opportunity to discuss this important legislation to improve benefits and services for veterans uh service members and their families my colleagues and I would be glad to answer any questions you or the other members of the committee may have thank you Miss Murphy we appreciate testimony um so we're going to go to
▶ 0:44:53questions M Murphy and I only need a yes or no answer answer other versions of the discussion draft would on on the the the um Bill requiring um us to no longer return turn to next list those who are reeking a fiduciary other drafts would uh for the VA notification the would notify the attorney general that all VA prior reports of the veteran to the next
▶ 0:45:23list was quote improper do these other bills put Trump Administration and VA at risk of being sued including for possible uh reparations yes sir okay okay I also need uh a yes or no answer uh once consolidation Appropriations Act of 2024 and the subsequential uh continuing resolutions expire will VA resume
▶ 0:45:53reporting VA with fiary to uh Nicks unless Congress passes the permanent solution we would follow the law that was applicable so if it expired yes we would follow the law um in effect at the time Mr why are the authorities in the accountability act necessary for VA to be able to hold its accountable chairman Bost the authorities in the restore accountability act will help us to hold
▶ 0:46:23our employees to a higher performance standard as well as a higher standard of conduct and that is good for serving veterans Dr Yandy what are va's current policies when veterans are seeking Administration to uh residential Rehabilitation programs chairman boss the current policy is if a veteran needs Priority Care that should be provided within 72 hours and if it's a non Priority Care for rrtp programs
▶ 0:46:54it should be provided within 30 days can you tell me how you think that uh my bill would veterans access act would improve access for veterans seeking uh substance abuse treatment chairman boss we are supportive of this legislation uh we already are making some changes in our policies and procedures and it would require some minor tweaks where we would change the priority admission threshold from 72 hours to 48 hours and the 30-day threshold uh to
▶ 0:47:2420 days uh additionally there will be a requirement for screening uh we have already started working on those screening measures uh by standardizing our screening procedures at a vision level uh so I think what is in the access act uh we have already started taking some steps towards that direction and we believe it will help in providing timely access to thank you Miss Murphy once again yes or no answer do you believe that every veteran with a fiduciary is automatically a danger
▶ 0:47:54to themselves and to answer that you're you're wait wait wait you're not able to answer whether you believe if a fiducia is provided for a veteran whether they are automatically a danger to themselves or others um if a fiduciary is provided that fiduciary takes care of their um their funds their financial needs financial needs uhhuh um if you're using
▶ 0:48:24the word automatically then I would say no okay okay uh Dr yend over the last month this committee has conducted several oversight hearings focused on Community Care our Witnesses have included VA program administrators and providers but most importantly veterans under secretary Collins how is VA planning to ensure veterans can get the care including Community Care that they've earned uh chairman post uh we
▶ 0:48:54believe Community Care is vaare and we would make sure that when a veteran is eligible and desires Community Care our veterans should be provided access to Community Care and so we are working uh as as secretary Collins has said in making sure that veterans have earned their access to Community Care and we'll take the steps to make sure that happens thank you Miss Murphy I have one more question and I know that you're probably not going to answer but I'm going to put it on the
▶ 0:49:25anyway do you believe believe that it is right for those people who have fought and died many of them physically disabled for Life uh in many ways that seek care care from the ba should have every due process under the law that someone who has not receives
▶ 0:49:55um I believe that we as part of our VA responsibilities have to administer all the due process that is required um okay maybe I should ask this who you you believe I apologize it's all sir by golly I I normally have to stand up but position of attention that um so the so let me ask this do you believe that the
▶ 0:50:25VA it has the authority to give due process regarding VA benefits and services yes regarding their constitutional rights um we as part of our due process provide information um in this case regarding the Brady Bill information that would be helpful to to the potential beneficiary that the potential um individual covered by
▶ 0:50:55the fiduciary program so they are aware of the rights um so we provide information well first off let me say that I believe that every other person in this United States besides veterans has the right to go before a judge to make that decision to offer them due process that's why I carry this bill and why we're going to push hard to make sure that bill passed with that um my time has expired and I yield to the an ranking member for his questions thank you thank you Mr chairman Mr theet
▶ 0:51:26um your title at VA is Chief human capital officer is that correct that is correct ranking member um can you tell me how many VA employees have been terminated since January 2022 approximately 1,400 employees have been terminated during their period can you speak up I can't hear you well sorry ranking member Tano approximately 1,400 employees have been terminated
▶ 0:51:56during their probationary period thank you for that who in your chain of command ordered you to carry out these terminations ranking member Tano um happy to take questions about the termination of employees during their probationary period for the record today my focus is on the legislation the restad please stop the restore VA accountability act changes the authorities VA has to terminate employees right the restore accountability act just answer my question the restore VA accountabil act changes the authorities VA has the
▶ 0:52:26terminate employees right ranking member to I'm establishing the derness of my questions to you please answer my questions who in the chain of your command ordered you to carry out these terminations I used the authorities within the code of federal regulations so nobody ordered you to car these determinations you you did it on your own there was direction from the office of personnel management so there was a a director from so from the from OPM or instructed you who in that office instructed you uh sir I'm happy to take these questions
▶ 0:52:57so you're refusing to answer the question um were leaders in the VA offices that these employees worked in notified prior or even after termination sir I'm happy to take a question so you're non-responsive many VA program officers still do not know who from their ranks were terminated was it the decision to terminate these employees made outside of va ranking member Tano I'm happy to answer the questions for the record for the record you're so you will answer it later is that what you're telling me
▶ 0:53:27I will sir thank you uh how many VA employees did you terminate on the night of February 2025 ranking member Tano as I mentioned approximately 1,400 employees have been terminated during their probationary period okay but you can't tell me on February 13th 2025 I will provide that information for the how many employ how many VA employees did you terminate yesterday ranking member Tano approximately 1,400 employees were terminated during their probationary period I can provide the
▶ 0:53:57information requested for the record thank you I have a poster that shows the memo that you that you wrote uh and sent to the employees that were terminated did you write and sign this memo ranking member Tano that is my signature on that letter and you wrote and signed the memo it is my signature on the letter did you write did you write the memo the uh memo was provided so you didn't write it it was provided to you by someone else the memo was provided you're not going to tell
▶ 0:54:27me who provided you with the memo ranking member Tano I'm happy but your name is on the memo I am happy to take did you personally determine and verify which probationer employees to terminate ranking member Tano happy to take that question for the record okay um so right here you wrote um that based on this employees perform termination uh that you base the the this employee's termination on their performance did you verify that each terminated employee had been evaluated for their performance ranking
▶ 0:54:57member Tano I will answer your questions for the record uh did you did every probationary employee who was terminated have performance issues ranking member Tano I'm happy to answer your question you can't answer that question though you sent this memo out and it resulted in their termination at today's hearing I am prepared to talk about the restore account act M my staff has now heard from many of the people who were fired and we know that many had Stellar performance records which directly contradicts the memo sent out did you do your
▶ 0:55:27due diligence before you sent this memo out and assure yourself that everything in this memo was true ranking member Tano I'm happy to take your so you just sent this memo and whether or not you're going to fire an employee based on their performance but you didn't do the due of diligence yourself to make sure that this memo was true I am happy to take the question and provide that so the answer is no it's not just that you're happy to take to my my question the acting us attorney in New York decided that she would design before engaging in
▶ 0:55:57a quidd pro quo that violated the oath she took did you take an oath to do the office to do the job you're doing now ranking member Toano every federal employee okay thank you so yes the answer is yes do you believe that terminating these employees and lying about the reason why was a violation of that oath ranking member Tano uh I am supporting the decision that was made so you supported the decision and you you you sent out memos without knowing whether or not their performance
▶ 0:56:28actually Justified their termination ranking member Tano I'm happy to answer questions regard madam what at what point would you resign rather than follow an instruction from a superior ranking member to come does that weigh on your conscience that somebody's livelihood was terminated and you didn't do the due diligence to to find out whether this memo was in fact true ranking member Tano if any employee is concerned just look at the veterans that are sitting behind you ma'am you fired these
▶ 0:56:58people the gentleman's time has expired representative King hin recogniz we got 99 problems in the in the Veterans Administration and you know I'm a new member and I've seen multiple reports both from the GAO and the IG laying out what the issues are and all this work that needs
▶ 0:57:28to be done with regards to providing the access to the care that veterans rightfully deserve so I want to reshift our Focus to the policy at hand and for me in my district the issue is access and the manner in which we've been having the conversation with regards to access is a one or the other proposition right uh whether we should just put all the money with regards
▶ 0:57:58to the VA or expand to Community Care Services I'm looking for a win-win so how do we and I don't think right when you're looking at communities like mine where access is an issue you can't just get in a car and drive this is very you know this is an issue for Rural communities as well how do we balance and optimize basically having those two complement each other so that we ensure that that veterans who live in remote rural areas
▶ 0:58:29actually have access uh thank you for the question um Dr bream and I testified a couple of weeks ago uh we completely understand that in places like the Pacific Islands and Alaska we'll have to come up with some innovative solutions given challenges with access in those areas uh we actually worked recently with visz 21 that covers your area put together a brief
▶ 0:58:59report uh outlining access both through VA direct care system as well as the Community Care System um and as uh Mr McIntyre from triest uh testified we are also working with our thirdparty administrators so I will make sure we'll provide you that summary I think it is already on its way but I will personally make sure we provide you with a detailed summary how we can ensure access in your area I'd appreciate that because some of the conversations that we're having seems or sounds like a first world problem
▶ 0:59:29to me when the issue really is just can we get some service so looking forward to that report thank you very absolutely my time thanks uh representative brazinski you are recognized thank you chairman uh Bost and ranking member Tano for this hearing and thank you to the witnesses for your time um I have strong concerns about several of the bills of for consideration today but most notably HR 472 the restore VA accountability
▶ 1:00:00act we have seen as um ranking member Tano discussed the mass firings across the federal government but specifically those 1,400 VA staff that were fired just last night that's a total of actually at least 2400 employees let go at the VA headquarters and that is an accounting for those who have taken the so-called fork in the road leave package I want to note I have the privilege of serving as a ranking member um on the subcommittee on Tech modernization
▶ 1:00:31and we held our first hearing yesterday regarding the ongoing roll out of the electronic health record system and at a time when we need to be recruiting and retaining staff um for major projects like ehrm that has really struggled to catch fire and get off the ground it troubles me that as a part of that hearing it was acknowledged that some of these firings were actually within the program um creating potentially further struggles for the program being further short
▶ 1:01:01staffed I want to point out that veterans make up approximately 30% of the federal Workforce so not only is this Administration firing thousands of employees who provide crucial service to our vets they are also firing thousand of Veteran employees themselves I have also heard directly from veteran employees in my district who were unjustifiably terminated I believe even staff accountability especially when it comes to those providing services for our veterans
▶ 1:01:31but it must be done in a just and fair manner VA officials themselves have communicated to the committee that they do not need additional authorities to hold employees accountable when the restore VA accountability Act was considered by this committee last Congress I offered an amendment that would have stricken provisions of this bill that explicitly suers ceeded collective bargaining agreements made with VA employee unions with respect to disciplinary procedures
▶ 1:02:02I noted at the time that more than 79% of va's Workforce are bar a bargaining unit employees procedures outlined in va's collective bargaining agreements have been agreed upon after extensive negotiations between unions and management to enact legislation that would simply throw out these contracts out the window I think is cruel unfair given that the parties negotiated these agreements under the law at the time when Congress passes
▶ 1:02:32new laws it is customary for labor and management to return to the bargaining table to incorporate those new laws into va's collective bargaining agreements not for Congress to unilaterally deny the workforce that right specifying in this bill that any collective bargaining agreements must be superseded is anti-union and anti-worker and it is just that simple so my question is um miss theet my question for you is that if instead of tossing
▶ 1:03:03out collective bargaining agreements and Beyond any Mass firings of the VA workers would it not be more efficient and coste effective to Simply improve training for HR employees and Frontline supervisors on how to properly and effectively discipline discipline employees under Title 5 and especially when compared to attempting to pass a law that has unconstitutional in the past and will almost certainly be
▶ 1:03:34litigated we have recognized that the restore accountability would require some modifications and some rigorous technical review working with the committee I think two things that we have been steadfast in is that we're always looking to improve whether it's improving the training whether it's improving the processes whether it's impr improving the timelines that we have to propose decide and finalize an action so the bill offers a lot of those um opportunities for us to improve our accountability when it comes to Performance and conduct
▶ 1:04:05the other component is that we want to make sure that any actions that we take are legally defensible we don't want to have to reinstate employees we don't want to have to um reverse actions that we've taken so the sections that you reference with respect to collective bargaining with respect to Opportunities improve to improve in our views on the bill we do look forward to working with the committee to make sure that language in those sections is sufficient enough for us to be able to learn from some of the challenges that we've had in the
▶ 1:04:35past and still be able to hold our employees to high levels of performance and conduct and whether it's in the investigative process in the training process in the execution of these authorities that we're able to do what the committee expects of us which is to hold our employees to a high standard and keep the veteran at the center of all that we do so there is an acknowledgement that there are some issues specifically around collective bargaining that have to be addressed that this legislation isn't superseding collective bargaining agreements ma uh representative
▶ 1:05:05binsky we do have in our views some recommendations for rigorous technical assistance with the committee on those sections the one thing that we want to do is learn from the past where we um implemented without bargaining and understand what our obligations are so that we meet those obligations and that we use the authority to its full extent possible you back thank you Barett thank you Mr chairman um thank you for being here today um
▶ 1:05:36I uh I want to follow up on a few of Mr pinsky's questions because we're genuinely looking at this uh electronic health record um issue but first wanted to ask uh Miss Murphy and uh the chairman was kind of getting at this point earlier but is it true that um a veteran who has their uh Second Amendment right rights revoked uh through that process their only opportunity to appeal that is after theyve already appeared on the list basically prohibiting them from owning a firearm is
▶ 1:06:06that um so V VA previous uh to the Consolidated Appropriations act last year was reporting to Nyx now there now we have only reported to Nyx um when there is a court order finding um that meets the requirements um as far as the I've Lo sir I've lost track of your question could you
▶ 1:06:37yeah so basically their only opportunity to appeal be after ncks has already been so we report we report uh as required in the cases once uh they are on the ncks list there is an appeal process um there's a u there's no there's a there's no opportunity or no um uh no um notification given to a veteran before they would appear on Nicks basically to discourage that uh from going
▶ 1:07:07forward so before from our side from the VA side we would provide them information uh we make two attempts at phone calls during our due process for the fiduciary program purpose to explain what the Brady Act is what the ramifications would be uh just so that they are aware whereare um I believe that so once they are on the Nick's List they could they could ask for a reconsideration just of that particular provision and it's different than what
▶ 1:07:37a civilian would encounter in a similar situation that's that's my understanding okay thank you and then um Miss thet can you give us uh a few examples in your experience of um just misconduct that you've been made aware of that led to an investigation that led to a termination and others that led to an investigation that did not lead to a uh termination for an employee so
▶ 1:08:07representative we have varying examples we take about 5,000 uh adverse actions a year to remove to suspend or to demote employees so and I know our office of accountability and whistleblower protection has testified on some of the investigations that they have done of senior leaders and the outcomes that have been imp imped regarding termination of those senior leaders so there I am aware of situations that have led to an investigation which was recommended a termination and that termination was taken we've also had situations
▶ 1:08:37where employees have retired or resigned uh before that action could be taken and I know I have recommended that we look at strengthening some of those procedures so individuals are not walking out the door with adverse actions and no action taken to hold them accountable if a person resigns um prior to a finding um does that carry forward with them to another Federal agency or another federal job that they may be applying for there are limitations in the current legislation so for
▶ 1:09:08instance it does not cover senior Executives it does not cover individuals who retire uh and the circumstances under which a Personnel record can be annotated so if somebody goes to another Federal agency that uh adverse action that um uh misconduct is seen by the current employe uh does not always happen in every single case so we again look forward to the committee to saying what can we do to improve what can we do to be the standard Bearer when it comes to employee performance and accountability in
▶ 1:09:38the federal government and then how long on average does it take for an investigation for a serious case of misconduct an allegation of that how long would an investigation typically take so average time frames can vary depending on the allegations depending on the number of witnesses who need to be contacted I know the office of accountability and whistleblower protection maybe said 120 days on average in some cases okay 120 days um and I'm running short on time but do you
▶ 1:10:08feel that there is a disincentive baked into that for um managers within VA to go forward with that investigation if they feel that it takes too long that the results won't actually be actioned that a person will walk away and maybe take another job before they would be held accountable for something representative I have heard of situations where managers feel that it's either not worth their time or they don't feel that they would be supported in going through the process and taking an
▶ 1:10:38action and we need to make sure that our managers are supported if they're doing the right thing and holding somebody who's not performing at the level expected or engaging in misconduct accountable thank you thank you Mr chairman representative Ramirez you're recognized for five minutes thank you chairman as the ranking member of oversight and investigations for this committee I take seriously my responsibility to carefully weigh the impacts of legislation we advance out of this
▶ 1:11:08committee it's my priority to ensure that the bills be Advance protect the VA programs and services that meet veterans needs and improve the quality of their lives however I got to say there are some that still insist that the mass firings that are happening are not impacting our veterans so missett let me ask you did you do an analysis of how these Reckless terminations would impact the agency's efficiency representative
▶ 1:11:39Ramirez I mentioned uh in ranking member of Tano's call that it's about 1,400 employees no no I'm asking did you do an analysis before you went on to fire that many people I mentioned ranking member Tano that I would be happy to take these questions on the terminations during probation and provide answers so you're not responding about doing analysis so we don't know who in the VA did that analysis we don't know who told you to prepare that memo we don't know what went into any analysis if in fact there was an analysis
▶ 1:12:09because we're saying that there's not going to be an impact on Veterans but we are seeing Mass firings happen we we don't know if you trusted that analysis because you're unable to disclose that so let's say it for what it is as far as right now we as members of this committee and as the ranking member of oversight and investigations I have no idea if you did your homework before firing thousands of veterans and VA employees to make sure veteran care and benefits would not be impacted let let me just make
▶ 1:12:39sure I say that Mr less than three weeks ago you testified before our subcommittee that under current law the VA cannot discipline an employee if there is no evidence to support a punishment in other words the VA can only discipline an employee only if there's evidence of wrongdoing yet today the VA supports the restore VA accountability act which limits the evidence the VA can consider when disciplining employees by limiting the Douglas factors which is an
▶ 1:13:09important criteria that agencies have to consider before any disciplinary action to ensure fairness in the process aren't we suggesting that the VA should consider some pieces of evidence but not others isn't that in effect just suppressing evidence I mean we're clear clear that there could be evidence that negates or mitigates a disciplinary action correct but the VA wouldn't be able to consider that evidence I I I don't understand how that's fair so Mr let me ask my question to you is do you believe
▶ 1:13:40that limiting the Douglas factor constitutional representative Maria is I want to make sure that the restore accountability act act employ due process okay so so let me ask the question again because I think it's really important I mean our responsibility is to uphold the Constitution here so let me ask you again do you believe limiting the Douglas factors is in fact constitutional yes or no I believe employees are due should have due process when they are um held
▶ 1:14:10to a standard of performance and conduct so you don't believe the Douglas factors is constitutional or you do believe that they're constitutional yes or no I believe there have to be factors whether they were the Douglas factors or other factors that are used in making those due process determinations Miss s i I'm sitting here and I'm watching people who have dedicated their life to protecting and to providing access to benefits and service to our veterans in tears I am asking myself how the heck
▶ 1:14:40am I in a room right now where the person that is responsible for emails can't tell me who told her to write the email can walk us through the process in which they determine if it's going to impact the ability for veterans to receive the benefits that they deserve and here I am with no answers I mean you have to understand the frustration in the ranking member here because we're talking about accountability but somehow there's no accountability in what you just did and that's why I have to tell you that it is incredibly
▶ 1:15:11important that on the record I state to you that what is happening in the VA is unacceptable and has real consequences to our veterans if there was no real analysis done if you are firing left and right during probation period And if you have no way of determining why the employee was fired then that tells me that there's no real process and and I can't leave here without putting
▶ 1:15:41that on the record so Miss Murphy I I want to go to you as I wrap up and I just want to ask you a real quick question do you believe that without sufficient mechanisms in place that we are able to protect veterans could you be more specific with with the context for that please yeah and I'm think well I know that we're running out so let me let me get back if I can the next round certainly thank you first off I want to rhyme remind
▶ 1:16:11members that their questions should be directed to the topic of the hearing which is the three pieces of legislation that we have before us five pieces of legislation we had before it's been a long day so with Mr chairman I'll just remind you that know we are considering the VA uh accountability act which does that's true that's true and some of the comments some of the comments have went beyond what that language actually does
▶ 1:16:41and the questions went beyond what the the accountability act actually does well it everything that I've heard today is very gerain to accountability uh what are the standards we're using to hire and Fire people or not but not the actual language of disciplined we're disciplin we're our questions are going to you know people are being fired uh and under under disciplinary you know they were said that they're not under the bill that we're discussing well the bill bill the bill that we're
▶ 1:17:11discussing does not deal with the situation that and and I and I gave you free reign to go ahead and have the communication and and talk about it and I responded but we have to be focused on these bills that were are before us that doesn't mean we won't have another time or we will talk and discuss that but as we go off away from what the actual language of the bill is then it deters from the actual language of the bills that we're trying to deal with so
▶ 1:17:41Mr chairman when will we have a hearing uh on this topic of of uh of of all these dismissed veterans when when will you commit to do a hearing we can discuss that at another time but right now we have do you commit to doing a hearing on the on on all these dismissals that that contradict uh you know we we've had we've actually had conversations in this room we've had conversations in the other room in the full hearing on these issues now
▶ 1:18:11my thought is is that we need to get focused on the bills that are before us you and I have had this we've actually discussed it in two full actually in in by Camal hearing um and we've let that go we need to actually get back to focusing on the bills that are before us so that we can have this hearing that we need to have that's that's fine you you have the but I these we have we have veterans who have been dis who had glowing performance records
▶ 1:18:42and we ought to know why and and I'm asking you will you commit to I have answered that if they come to me we we can talk about that excuse me if they come to me we can talk about that I said that to the hearing in there I said that if they individual there is a due process they can go through I would ask you I think this merits a hearing the American people are upset about these veterans who have been dismissed with glowing performance records and there seems to have no no performance there's been no analysis on efficiency on how this
▶ 1:19:12affects there's no justification why okay representative hday you're recognized thank you Mr chairman you know as I sit here time and time again I see my colleagues on the other side always seeming to protect the bureaucracy and I want to remind everybody that the VA employs over 400,000 employees and what we're talking about is 1,400 I mean the 400,000 employees that's bigger than the United States Navy I know you all have a tough task ahead of you to make sure that the VA is actually
▶ 1:19:43working for the veteran going back to the topic at hand as a veteran and a former prosecutor myself I understand that oath of office to uphold the Constitution and to protect the communities but I'm a proud to co-lead Chairman boss veterans second amendment protection act because it's crucial that veterans retain the same constitutional rights we fought to protect now Miss Murphy does the VA ever report veterans to Nicks before considering any evidence that they may be a danger to
▶ 1:20:13themselves or others thank you for that question under the current construct we are not reporting anyone other than um those who have been been adjudicated under a court order um that included that they were uh danger to themselves or others so that is under our current instruction that is already taken care of by the court when did that happen in March of 2024 under the Consolidated Appropriations act so that's
▶ 1:20:43the that's the authority we're operating under now are you following the Supreme Court's guidelines we are we are following the guidelines of the of the ACT now Miss Murphy would the access act by codifying clear access standards and expanding eligibility for substance use and Urgent Mental Health Care help these veterans get the care they deserve I'd like to ask Dr yand to weigh in on that
▶ 1:21:15um uh yes Congressman uh we are supportive of the access act and we believe it will improve access to Veterans uh both on the Community Care as well as on the Direct Care side in making sure veterans get timely access to uh substance abuse care uh and residential treatment programs you know I'm often hear this report or this uh poll that's by my Democrats colleagues and some at the VA that say that the the VA has a 92% trust in the health care that they receive when veterans go
▶ 1:21:45there but that study often is only talking about people who actually went through the VA process or the outpatient it's a post outpatient survey but doesn't it doesn't talk about those who never made it through the system and that's kind of my biggest concern right now when you're talking about mental health and substance use and they never make it through the system because they find the bureaucracy and the red tape so difficult to go through and I think that's why the access Act is going to hopefully resolve some of this and is that what your opinion is as well um
▶ 1:22:16I would say Congressman the access act particularly the rrtp provisions very clearly delineate the threshold when we should be referring veterans out and uh they would be reducing both the priority threshold from 72 to 48 hours and the non-priority thresholds from 30 to 20 days and we believe that will improve access to Veterans and you implementing that already uh we have made a policy decision and I I can't tell you exactly when uh to
▶ 1:22:46implement the 72-hour threshold and the 30-day threshold uh if this uh Act is implemented we will make some Chang es to meet that threshold but we have al already put in some uh Place some processes that allow us to sort of meet the current thresholds and we'll have to just tweak those if this particular Act is passed and you're able to currently do that even given the 1400 people who were dismissed um I'm not sure I can answer
▶ 1:23:16your question uh in terms of the impacts of those 1400 individuals I would just say we are committed to making sure veterans get their timely access uh the only thing I would add is that the there is an exceptions list that has been submitted and most of the Frontline staff are part of that exception list all right thank you chairman iel back representative brownley thank thank you Mr chairman um I
▶ 1:23:46wanted to ask my first question um to Dr yendi um Dr yendi last week um Doge cancelled a contract with a a service disabled veteran-owned small business that supported VHA in marketing and recruiting for difficult to fill clinical staff positions uh staff vacancies at VA medical centers and Clinics Nationwide it's my understanding uh that this contract some version of which
▶ 1:24:17has existed uh for 20 years actually saves VA money by decreasing the cost per hire without this contract VA will struggle to attract the doctors and nurses that they need leading to an additional Workforce shortages care delays and more care being sent to the community and Rising costs are you aware of this contract being cancelled I am not aware about the cancellation of the contract
▶ 1:24:47so I to take that back as to potential impacts are are you aware of the contract and what it does um I I'm vaguely aware about contracts to help hire con sort of providers in the VA but I don't have the details okay so um so you you're vaguely aware of the contract vaguely aware of what its intention to do is to help bring in applicants for important positions
▶ 1:25:17within the VA do you agree that that's its purpose I believe so okay so if if we don't have it um if if if we don't have that contract do you believe that that could impact our our ability to hire high quality Professionals in the organization uh congresswoman having served at a facility as a chief of staff I would say there are multiple ways to bring on providers both VA providers fee basis providers
▶ 1:25:47um so in terms of the impacts of terminating that contract uh on being able to build bring in Frontline providers I I don't have that information but we can definitely get back to you there okay thank you so um uh Miss theed I think I wanted to ask you to you know so I think we've established that 2400 people have been uh laid off or fired from the VA um are you aware that I I I've the VA has continually told
▶ 1:26:18us that there are 40,000 vacancies within the VA that need to be filled does that number sound accurate to you ,000 employees and we manage to our budget uh our budget does not have 40,000 vacancies um on on the on uh on our records so we're looking at a smaller percentage than 40,000 vacancies of positions that we continue to fill as Dr yend had
▶ 1:26:48mentioned uh under the hiring freeze that the office of personnel management communicated in January we we have identified over a 100 occupational series that we continue to fill uh and we make sure that those positions that are in the veterans Health Administration the veterans benefits Administration National cemeter Administration the board are filled got it got it thank you so of the 24 that have uh been fired do you have uh any idea so veterans make up uh about almost 29% of the
▶ 1:27:18uh the va's workforce and many of those are 100% uh service connected disabled veterans who were in those jobs do you have any idea how many are impact how many of our veterans were impacted by this firing and layoff representative brownley about a third of our Workforce are veterans um and with respect to veteran hiring and Veteran Recruitment and Veteran retention uh probationary status looks at prior
▶ 1:27:48Federal service and in many of those instances under the veterans recruitment Authority um they continue to have uh continuous service so don't have the specific numbers of the 1400 that have been impacted but can provide that information okay well I I would certainly like to I would certainly like to know that I'd also like to know how many um are actually were working in VA medical facilities across the country uh uh as well so I don't have much time left but I I I understand that there are
▶ 1:28:19uh several people here in the audience who um have been impacted um by this firing and layoff and I just want to thank them actually for being here and I don't know um what all of their responsibilities are um exactly but I know that um I I know some of them are doing very important work that have been laid off some are are training um actually people who are coming out of the military to work for the VA to teach them how to
▶ 1:28:49be um procurement managers some are making sure that they're benefits are are right um and and and completely fulfilled as they should be so to me these are very very important positions that need to be filled and um I'm sorry to the people who are here that don't have a voice in this hearing and I will yield back representative KY thank you uh first let me start by thanking all
▶ 1:29:19the veterans that are here with us today for your service to our country and those federal workers uh that are here with us today uh that are veterans of this country and those that are service disabled I thank you for your service and I'm disgusted by the way that you've been treated not just you in this room but colleagues military colleagues across country
▶ 1:29:49it is heartbreaking it's infuriating and it's wrong and we're talking about those that have dedicated their lives to service to this country and then some of whom have bled for this country and then have dedicated their lives even further by going into public service as federal workers and yet
▶ 1:30:20because you're on probation or so that's what we've been told we can't even get a straight answer today your job is terminated that's despicable are veterans to serve better those veterans that have bled for this country and this house has an obligation to treat you with dignity and respect like the Heroes that you
▶ 1:30:51are I spoke to a service disabled veteran this past week who worked as a federal worker for over a decade and a half took a promotion less than a year ago his job was terminated he was on the chop block these were arbitrary Cuts arbitrary despicable miss theet you talk about the fact that there is
▶ 1:31:22uh less of a staff shortage across a VA according to the va's own numbers it's 40,000 that's the number we were told by the VA that is not accurate representative Kennedy the 40,000 number are not funded positions there are a smaller number of funded vacancies but there is a shortage there are Staffing models that identify requirements and those requirements can um support that number that you mentioned so there's a a requirements
▶ 1:31:53in a staffing model and a staffing study that is done around what Workforce is needed to support some of the care and I believe those were some of the numbers that were identified uh through the PCT act but yet right when the executive order by President Trump was put into place the hiring freeze there were 1,00 plus people in the pipeline that were hired to ready to go to work at our VA across this country and they were automatically cut is that accurate so representative Kennedy
▶ 1:32:23there were many employees about 1,700 who had job offers and they were brought on board and those job offers were rescinded correct no they were actually brought on board by February the 8th based on those offers that have been made and those start dates that were so 1,700 people whose job jobs have been offered were hired corre after the hiring after the hiring free corre I'd like to see a detailed account of that uh there were 716 job postings that were taken offline is that accurate my understanding is it was 74
▶ 1:32:55714 that were taken down correct correct so we have uh staff shortage according to the VA Zone account we have those that were uh posted that were not hired and we have 1,400 you're telling us 1400 we still haven't seen a detailed account of these firings so representative Kennedy we have exemptions approved by the office of personnel management to continue hiring to continue posting job opportunity announcement we continue to bring employees
▶ 1:33:25on each pay period to support our veterans in our medical centers as well as our Benefits Offices and our cemeteries well tell that to the 1,400 people that were terminated those veterans and service disabled veterans who were terminated tell them that there was an exemption there was no true exemption for our VA and and those veterans including those that are sitting right behind you here today it's unconscionable in this country is better than that we have a history of
▶ 1:33:55treating our military veterans with a priority and that did not happen in this instance i y back representative Dexter you're recognized for five minutes thank you chairman bust and ranking M Tano for convening this hearing and thank you to our Witnesses for being here today to our veterans um who were so clearly fired without any understand understanding of the impact not only on you but on
▶ 1:34:25our veterans throughout this country I'm sorry and thank you for being here um please know that the Democrats are going to be fighting for you and that includes standing up against HR 472 which makes it easier to fire our committed VA employees injecting more cruel chaos into our communities just last week back home in Oregon I convened a round table with almost 15 veteran serving organizations our state has one of the highest veteran
▶ 1:34:55suicide rates in the country each one of The Advocates and Veterans at that table underscored the importance of preventing these tragic deaths Miss theet is it correct that suicide prevention is the va's number one clinical priority yend to answer the question okay thank you Dr yend uh yes Dr Dex we agree thank you and I believe Miss thet has confirmed this number
▶ 1:35:26but I just want to ask again how many veterans have been fired since January 20th veterans Dr Dexter I will have to take that question for the record okay job and income loss are two of the top indicators for suicidal ideation is that correct Mr Dr yende um it could be one of the many factors I believe it's documented that that is accurate but thank you um now
▶ 1:35:56tell me Miss thet what communication did the VA provide to Veterans prior to termination to help them cope with their job and income loss Dr Dexter I will take that question for the record I just want to underline that we have prioritized clinically Suicide Prevention as our top clinical priority and we went on to terminate veterans
▶ 1:36:27any impacted or impactful intervention prior to that termination is that accurate Dr Dexter I will take that question for the record okay so we have established that you sent an email to fire them and I will assert unless we're proven otherwise when you get back to us that that was done without any additional support for these
▶ 1:36:57veterans Dr Dexter as I had mentioned I'm prepared to talk about the restore accountability act today I I think this is directly relevant so I'm going to now move to what did you send these veterans after they were terminated to help them cope with their job and income loss to hopefully prevent suicide in these veterans and our workers uh Dr Dexter I can mention that as the Chief Human Capital officer at the VA in my signature block I have the 911 Suicide
▶ 1:37:28Prevention Hotline um that information is always available in individuals who contact me and I think as chairman Bost had mentioned if anybody has concerns about the action that the VA has taken um they are free to reach out to us or to others for answers to those questions so that is a 911 is always available I also understand that our crisis line had um terminations um impacting that as well I'll just make the statement because I assume that that's not going to be
▶ 1:37:58um elaborated on laying off veterans especially without proper Mental Health Resources is a betrayal of their service to our country and our promise to them I urge you all to remember that no amount of perceived efficiency is worth abandoning our values as Americans and our commitment to these Brave veterans who served our country and to add insult to injury among those fired Miss theet was an instructor as I mentioned for the veteran Suicide Prevention
▶ 1:38:29Hotline It's a cruel irony that the Trump Administration enabled by Republicans is not only putting our veteran employees at risk but in doing so is making it harder for veterans to access care which we have said is our top clinical priority in their greatest hours of need our veterans deserve much better than what this Administration and our country is standing up for at this moment and I believe that we have have a duty to address this issue imminently thank you Mr chair I yield
▶ 1:39:05Dr Dr Conway you're recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman our veterans are courageous men and women who have sacrificed much of their lives to defend and protect our country uh these brave men and women and women make up roughly 30% of our federal Workforce our house of Appropriations Committee estimates that nearly 6,000 veterans have lost their jobs which is to my mind completely
▶ 1:39:35unacceptable when we understand and know we've heard well partial answers to our questions about Staffing levels at the VA uh many uh veteran employees have been terminated were preparation uh employees as you mentioned some of you have been mentioned uh but these many of these persons were not people who were new to the VA system they were people who had been in the VA system for some time and were promoted into new positions and so uh it makes their termination
▶ 1:40:05presumably they were promoted because they were doing a good job to be promoted and so it makes their determination as probationary periods as a uh using that as a subtext particularly uh calling um can you discuss and I'll start with Miss uh uh Murphy what impact uh you think the these firings will have on the lives of veterans and our families and in particular the veterans uh the many veterans who were terminated uh from service in these uh in these rounds of
▶ 1:40:36cuts so Dr Conway um on the from the veterans benefits perspective on on our side of the VA um the the core Mission delivering benefits to Veterans has continued um I would point out that just today we issued a press release noting that we've reached our 1 millionth claims uh processed earlier this year than ever um and in the last we've had 10 of our highest production days just in the last month
▶ 1:41:06and the highest day ever at 12,000 claims so we're continuing to deliver um as as secretary Collins has instructed on uh on our cor Mission delivering uh benefits to Veterans well that you're working on your cor mission is one thing but the question is is what the outcomes uh as you're working on that Miss uh thet you mentioned that this uh the number 40,000 is not an accurate number uh reflecting the the V uh the vacancies uh but you suggested in your comments that
▶ 1:41:37uh if you look at budgeted uh at what's budgeted for staff that there is a gap between uh with respect to the number of employees uh for which there is a budget who have not whose positions have not actually been filled can you tell us what that number is if you if it's 40,000 is wrong and you mentioned we've got a budget uh limiting that what is the number of budgeted positions that are not filled uh Dr Conway the information
▶ 1:42:07that we publish on a quarterly basis related to the mission act section 505 report contains that information I'm happy to provide it I don't have it with me today okay uh thank you uh uh and I look forward uh to getting that information now um Dr uh aende a yende excuse me um do you uh and we've had a question about this and perhaps we can get a more fullsome answer but the uh VA facilities Across the Nation are they are they
▶ 1:42:37fully staffed or I mean and and if you if they're not fully staffed and we we don't believe they are um is it 70% fully staffed 80% where do you where do you think that number can you give us a range at least about the Staffing levels at these facilities Across the Nation uh I would have to take that question back and provide a more definite number I don't have that information and and what do you um just in your experience at running uh agencies and and healthc Care Systems um doesn't Staffing
▶ 1:43:08play an important role in the outcomes of care that people receive in those institutions that have uh that are delivering well any service but in this case uh Healthcare to Veterans or other services to Veterans for that matter um yes Dr G Staffing does play a role but um leadership at VA facilities day in and day out try to make sure that veterans Frontline access is not impacted by Staffing and there are multiple ways to do that and yet we've seen
▶ 1:43:38uh time after time um reported and this is this is not any particular Administration by the way but we've seen uh that that veterans are having trouble accessing care um you know referrals can sit for 6 n months we've heard in this very hearing room for people with possible cancer who don't get on to definitive care so um what um do you um expect that you're going to be able to do to meet uh the Staffing shortfall uh that's currently in place and
▶ 1:44:08by the way uh you mention well I'll well I'm about done but uh please uh tell us about um what you expect to happen with respect to Staffing and how that's going to positively impact the the um respons build as of va thank you Dr Miller Meeks you're recognized for five minutes thank you very much uh Mr chair and uh thank you for holding this important hearing Miss Murphy
▶ 1:44:38after a veteran and I'm saying this as both a veteran married to a veteran in a family of veterans and also a doctor former nurse so after a veteran is already reported to Nicks based on no evidence dangerousness isn't it harmful to a veteran's mental health that they have to prove to the VA that they're not dangerous to get their name removed from nycks um so pardon me is there any effect on a on
▶ 1:45:09a veteran's dignity purposefulness and mental health and well-being if they have to prove to the VA that they're not defective after they've been reported to the Nick system by someone who may not be a doctor may not have any medical experience uh and may not be a judge so I do want to point out that this year since um March of 2024 when our rep reporting requirements changed we have reported
▶ 1:45:39individuals um so the the number in the past I believe the prior fiscal year was um around 13,000 similar to the to the prior fiscal year before that so our our reporting numbers are much lower and um so to to have uh the requirement uh to be it's it's currently not not an issue um
▶ 1:46:09previously when we were reporting hire there there was an appeal process there was a uh request to request for Relief process and those were those were taken on a case-by Case basis even in the veterans fiduciary program um there's opportunity if if there's a change in the mental health condition they can submit additional evidence well thank you for saying that so if the VA updates the attorney general that all prior reports of veterans to Nicks solely because they have a fiduciary
▶ 1:46:40no longer applies will the veteran who has reported the ncks list for other reasons stay on the ncks list or are they removed from the Nicks list are they still on the list even if they find there was no basis or they know the fiduciary no longer applies to them so they would still be on the next list and we would have to so without due process they are still on the Nick list they're denied their constitutional rights even after they've been uh the attorney generals have been told that it no longer applies to them so they're
▶ 1:47:10referred solely on the basis of having a fiduciary I found that appalling after these veterans are the ones that defended our rights um Dr yendi one of the things that we've heard throughout the community and from veterans is that they're experience getting appointments with Community Care so if they meet the eligibility I.E they can't get into the to a VA Clinic appointment within 30 days and or they live over uh 40 miles that getting the appointment varies dramatically depending upon which VA facility
▶ 1:47:40or region they're in what steps is the VA taking to ensure that Community Care policies such as the referral coordination initiative are implemented uh consistently across all businesss uh we have very clear guidance to each facility to make sure that referal coordination initiative RCI is implemented in as many Specialties as possible um and I would just add shair there are other reasons why there may be delays uh which may be related to staff
▶ 1:48:10who help to schedule these appointments we work closely with the sites where there are long wait times in making sure they have the right processes the right leadership and the right Staffing level it's not just typically St in level there may be multiple factors at play and Dr yundi if a veteran wants a mental health appointment in person shouldn't that be up to them and their decision uh yes rather than the VA considering that we've given them a teleah health appointment within 30 days and so therefore
▶ 1:48:40they've uh denied a a visit or an appointment if they want their visit in person we agree with you okay thank you so much I with that Mr Char yell back thank you gentlem y's uh Miss Murphy and uh all others thank you so much for being here uh you're dismissed and excused and we want to then invite the second panel up uh to the witness
▶ 1:49:21table e
▶ 1:50:05turn my mic on first um I'd like to welcome our second panel Mr uh Jim Wally uh the Chief Executive Officer of mission roll call uh Mr Patrick Murphy uh the Director of National legislative Services of veterans of foreign war and I would also like to extend a special welcome to a former member of Congress himself a veteran Mr Max Rose has served here in this Congress and uh like I said as a veteran himself nice Tie by the way
▶ 1:50:35and welcome no one understands that but you and I do he is the uh is with uh us today as a senior advisor to the veterans voice Foundation I appreciate it uh all of you being here so if I you could would you you please stand and raise your right hand do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you and let the record reflect
▶ 1:51:05that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative Mr wall you are now recognized for five minutes for your statement ranking member Tano and distinguished members of the House Veterans Affairs committee thank you for this opportunity to testify on behalf of mission roll call and the 1.4 million veterans we represent at Mission roll call our goal is simple making sure veterans voices are heard where it matters most we use Poland in direct engagement to bring
▶ 1:51:36real unfiltered veteran perspectives to policy makers and the public amplifying this data on behalf of veterans and their families allows us to advocate for Meaningful change that improves the lives of those who have served one of the biggest concerns we here about his access to healthcare while the mission Act of 2018 made improvements many veterans still struggle a recent poll of over 2500 veterans and family members found 44%
▶ 1:52:06experienced delays in care 31% had difficulty scheduling and 12% were denied Community Care veterans shouldn't have to wait unreasonable amounts of time or travel excessive distance to receive care that's why why we support the veterans access Act of 2025 to ensure care is built around the veteran not bureaucracy this act makes important progress on several fronts namely it mandates reasonable time and
▶ 1:52:36distance standards to ensure veterans aren't take as to travel too far or too long to receive care it clarifies weit time standards to help prevent lengthly delays in receiving care it gives veterans a voice in how when and where they receive care and perhaps most importantly it ensures no veteran in need of crucial Mental Health Care is left unattended in their moments of need in other issue is the Veterans second amendment protection
▶ 1:53:06act right now the VA reports to the FBI's Nick database over 270,000 veterans since 1998 by comparison the FBI itself has reported fewer than 2,000 under the same criteria the decision to list any American on the next list and and encroach upon constitutionally protected rights should not be made lightly and should only be done through judicial process
▶ 1:53:37yet the VA has made this an administrative decision veterans fear seeking help for pts or TBI could cost them their rights without due process Congress temporarily addressed this issue last year but it's time to make it a permanent protection of course none of this matters if we don't how hold the VA accountable the VA serves over 9 million veterans but too many still face barriers to timely care long wait times persist and Veterans
▶ 1:54:07regularly report difficulty assessing Services the restore VA accountability Act of 220 2025 is a step toward ensuring the VA effective addresses underperformance maintains our veterans first culture serving veterans is a privilege and every VA employee should be held to the highest standards lastly I want to highlight the importance of the student veteran benefit restoration act education benefits are life-changing for veterans veterans invest in their
▶ 1:54:37Futures using their hard-earned educational benefits but when a school loses State approval or commits fraud they are left with nothing this bill ensures veterans do not lose their benefits due to circumstances out of their control at M rooll call we believe in Solutions not just critiques we're eager to partner with the VA to tackle these challenges together we also recognize the vital role of veteran service organizations Nationwide and urge collaboration to maximize impact
▶ 1:55:07working together we can ensure veterans and their families receive the care and support they deserve the bottom line we need policies that put veterans First Health Care protection of Rights accountability at the VA and education benefits these issues directly impact veterans and their families Mission roll call will continue to amplify and bring their voices to you because where policy and serving veterans is Concerned Veterans voices should lead the conversation chairman boss
▶ 1:55:38ranking member Tano other distinguished members of the committee this concludes my testimony thank you I look forward to any questions thank you Mr appreciate that Mr Murphy you're recognized for minutes chairman Bost ranking member Koo members of the committee on behalf of the men and women of the VFW and its auxiliary thank you for the opportunity to provide remarks on this legislation today on accountability the VFW fully agrees that the VA secretary should have the ability to remove bad employees from their roles We
▶ 1:56:08Believe secretary MCD should have had this Authority as the same applies to secretary Collins but we're worried that this could now lead to more arbitrary firings of competent and capable employees simply as a cost cutting measure two weeks ago sec Terry Collins announced VA fired more than a thousand employees last night it was 1400 more nowhere in these messages did it explain what warranted that action members of this committee regularly say VA needs to weed out the Bad actors and we agree but the dismissal
▶ 1:56:38of thousands of employees was not done because it was warranted it was done because it was easy among the employees who were let go were veterans and Military spouses other firings were of employees recently promoted into new roles some of these firings have been rescinded because they were key positions but that's not the case for all before this committee advances this bill we ask that there be proper oversight to ensure the men and women who serve our veterans caregivers and survivors were not fired from roles
▶ 1:57:09the BFW supports the student veteran benefit restoration act to protect student veterans and their earned education benefits from schools that commit fraud this legislation would require VA to restore the education entitlements to the students and the school would be required to repay vaa the associated funds it received as written and if passed in a law these protections would apply to Future violations for fraud and we recommend including retroactive restoration of Education entitlements for students who could be affected prior
▶ 1:57:39to enactment the VFW Sports HR 1041 to protect veterans second amendment rights and establish due process for those who have been assigned fiduciaries by VA before referring them to the next list we supported this bill over 15 years ago when an earlier version was first brought to BFW attention and will continue to support this proposal until it's passed into law even though the issue of fiduciaries affects a small percentage of veterans we argue that every veteran deserves protection
▶ 1:58:09of their constitutional rights the VFW also supports HR 740 the veterans access act this proposal would provide some enhancements to VA Community Care Program since since the passage of the mission act 2018 VA has not implemented this program consistently across this entire network veterans deserve consistency in their care and this is a step towards providing that while this proposal does not address VA direct care we'd be remissed not to remind this committee that some of the reasons
▶ 1:58:40Community Care appointments and costs are increasing is because VA cannot provide some of these vital Services care in the community is VA care but providing resources for care only in the is something that we cannot abide by vaare uh Direct Care can lead to sorry VA direct care can lead to a less capable VA and an over Reliance on the pressure relief system of Community Care
▶ 1:59:10this could be detrimental to the overall care for veterans lastly section 302 of this proposal seeks to implement a different pilot program for accessing certain Mental Health servic without a prior referral authorization if the veteran is enrolled in VA Healthcare this process is similar to the existing Urgent Care treatment models available to veterans that system works for veterans because it allows quick access to treatment that could typically face certain delays or overcrowding
▶ 1:59:41via emergency rooms but that system also brings high costs and unknown budget impacts VA does not know if 10 veterans will use that system or if 10,000 veterans will use that that system VA simply has to pay the bill when it shows up this uncoordinated care has grown the Community Care budget in the past two years and we predict this provision could have similar unpredictable increases in cost we believe this provision could be beneficial but we'd like to warrant against reductions
▶ 2:00:11in direct vaare in order to maintain these uncoordinated care options chairman Bost ranking member Tano thank you for the opportunity to provide remarks on these bills today and I'm to answer any questions you may have Mr Murray thank you Congressman Rose you're recognized chairman thank you it's to see you again ranking member it's great to see you as well it's really uh it's really an honor to come back to this uh committee which I was so honored to serve on and of course I'm equally honored that my return to this committee
▶ 2:00:41has caused such a a surge in member attendance to hear what I have to say so I am the senior advisor to vetv uh Foundation representing nearly 2 million veterans and military families across the country I'm also a veteran myself a Purple Heart recipient I continue to serve in the reserves and roughly three four years ago uh I myself hit a rough
▶ 2:01:11patch and made the decision along with my family that I would seek uh Mental Health Care at my local VA it's not something I'm ashamed of and I think every veteran at one point or another goes through that moment what I found at my local VA was an institution that wasn't just represented by the actual healthare providers I found uh a home a place that understands veterans that's why we built this institution as a nation that's why we continue to
▶ 2:01:41support it because we've collectively made the decision that we need a healthc care organization that is uniquely suited for veterans and I believe that this committee stands in a bipartisan fashion to fight for and defend that which brings me to this issue of community care we all collectively agree that if there there needs to be a safeguard for if veterans cannot seek care or find
▶ 2:02:11the care that they need at a local VA but I also equally believe that we have to fight for each and every day to make sure that our VA is properly resourced and at times those two issues can be awfully conflicting we have got to make sure that both from a budgeting standpoint as well as from a policy standpoint what we are spending our days on is looking at how we can improve the VA itself
▶ 2:02:42not slowly kill it via a thinly veiled effort at privatization that's what I believe our Northstar should be I'm also Gravely concerned by the lack of transparency and uncertainty surrounding the recent policy changes that have directly impacted VA the VA Workforce I do not believe that there's any such thing as a non-essential category of va
▶ 2:03:12workers they are all essential and they all directly impact patient care we know for a fact that there have been blanket firings at least large groups of people that work the front desk at VA medical technicians people that service hotlines people that support at least on an ancillary basis surgeries and other absolutely essential Services now they not may not be direct providers
▶ 2:03:43but they are absolutely essential and they absolutely impact direct patient care and I believe that the consequence of these Mass firings will result in veterans not receiving the care that they need and ultimately veterans being put In Harm's Way and that directly contradicts the promise that we as a nation have made to veterans that they when they sign on that dotted line and make
▶ 2:04:13and make a promise to make the ultimate sacrifice for this nation that we will be there for them when they come home my views on the legislation before the committee today is in my written testimony I of course look forward to speaking about that and I'll conclude with this as you deliberate on these bills my guiding principle remains steadfast our veterans deserve policies that honor their service protect their rights and provide them with the support they need to thrive I look forward
▶ 2:04:43to working with this committee to ensure your legislative efforts achieve our common goals while upholding the trust and well-being of our veterans I thank you for your time and look forward to questions for five minutes uh this one is for the entire panel yes or no uh do you believe every American citizen including every veteran is entitled to their day in court before they lose any
▶ 2:05:14right yes yes certainly certainly of course Murray uh a few weeks ago a BFW representative testified that VA denied her request for a specialized mental health program due to the program being out of network do you believe veterans should be able to access Community Care that works for them regardless of their network
▶ 2:05:44uh absolutely that that instance was it was actually denied multiple times uh because a veteran on the East Coast Most Wanted a treatment facility first in Arizona then in Utah but because that was in Tri West versus opum it was denied there was nothing that we found that that was in writing that that was uh in Statute in regulation it was just in practice we believe it might have been the the contracts but we're not privy to some of that information that could
▶ 2:06:14have led to disastrous consequences Mr Wally uh how do you under how do you how do underperforming employees impact the quality of care provided to Veterans well I think every American expects our VA to be the most efficient effective uh program it can possi be I mean um we can't expect to have the greatest military in the world if we don't have the greatest Health Care system in the world both for
▶ 2:06:45active duty military and for veterans so I think we want the best and brightest we want to retain them we want to give the opportunity to um improve the capabilities of the VA Wally also for veterans with substance use uh disorder does it take a lot of courage to show up to a facility and admit they need help and do you think the VA currently Uh current Community Care process is simple
▶ 2:07:15enough for veterans to get the care that they need no the numbers speak for themselves the number of pursu suicides has not dropped in years in fact it's gone higher so we know that there's a challenge a significant challenge that our country should be embarrassed about we have too many veterans that are taking their life we need to make it easy for them to get the Cure they want when they need it and promptly we can't have veterans that have mental uh challenges uh thoughts of suicide
▶ 2:07:46have to wait for somebody to give them a call to get the appointment that they need they need the appointment now need to be taken care of yeah Congressman Rose um you said yourself you used the VA facility okay how close was that VA facility to your home well Staten Island so the traffic's always unpredictable chairman I understand but I I'd say about a half hour okay
▶ 2:08:16so and and I agree with you we don't want to privatize the VM I'm going tell you that right now never have I said I want to privatize the VA but you do believe that if a person lives in Wyoming and is three or four hours at Best from VA they should still be able to receive Care at the level that you do being 15 20 minutes or even a half hour or 45 minutes based on traffic sure AB absolutely chairman I believe that's already in
▶ 2:08:46statute based off of the ability for someone to seek Community Care dependent on how far away the nearest VA facility is what the concern actually is with this legislation if you look at for instance the pilot that is being offered much of that is thrown out the window and you you see the opportunity for people to seek community- based care often even without a referral this opens the door exactly to privatization what we both collectively have said what we're
▶ 2:09:17opposed to because in instances like that you are actually drawing funds away from the va's capacity to serve its own institution and that prevents veterans like myself from being able to still continue to go in to institutions that were developed to actually understand them and and that'll that'll that'll lead me in my last question do you believe the VA was created for the veterans or was it created for the VA of course the VA was created for for
▶ 2:09:47veterans of course okay the only concern that I have is is that when we tell the veteran they have to go to the VA and that veteran has for whatever reason a need to go into the community care like I said don't want to I think there's some very special things that our Vaas does and continue to do uh of course this also leads to a bill that I believe you were around when we passed which was mission act right you were here for that um which part of that was also to revamp
▶ 2:10:17the VA so that each because what we've got is is we've got several veterans veterans that might live in one might in 1950s lived in one area and now we have very few veterans there and and and that is in the air commission and this is not an argument for the house because the house did their job it's for the Senate to do their job so we have no Senators here so we can't badmouth them over that but with that I yield back and uh and ask for the recognize the ranking member for his question thank you Mr chairman yeah we're not going to talk about the air commission all
▶ 2:10:47right uh Congressman Rose good to see you back my nice to see you too uh you're looking well um thank you for being here today and as a veteran and user of va you uh you know your perspective is important uh for us your insights as Congress develops policies that may change how VA delivers care what do you think are the most important considerations we should weigh to ensure veterans receive timely and highquality Healthcare sure I think the beginning our Northstar should be is that the VA
▶ 2:11:17by virtually every metric is performing better than other large healthc care institutions based off of patient surveys treatment quality uh even in many instances wait times the VA is performing better so I think our first immediate priority should be to make sure that we are investing at greater numbers into the VA we also should note that the vast majority of va employees could get paid more in other Healthcare
▶ 2:11:48organizations they are making the explicit choice to continue continue their record of service many of whom are veterans uh their service should be honored and they should be supported rather than fired in Mass thank you for that Congressman Rose how does Staffing affect va's ability to deliver timely and high quality care to Veterans believe it's everything and it's not just Staffing in regards to how many nurses you have how many direct primary care physicians although that's absolutely
▶ 2:12:18essential if you want to make sure that you are delivering high quality care to Veterans you have to make sure that your front desks are manned you have to make sure that there are proper care coordinators in place you have to make sure that there are people policing the uh parking lots all of those different types of positions were very largely represented in the groups that were just fired over the course of these past two weeks I'm glad you get into this um VA relies on staff Staffing in its community care
▶ 2:12:49offices uh at VA medical centers to coordinate veterans care when it is referred out so when you get a referral to go in the community you have this office of community care which actually follows through on that at staff is it my understanding that that some of these that many of these community care offices are understaffed they they're absolutely underst staffed and I'm so happy you brought this up because when we think about Community Care certainly if a veteran cannot get a specialty appointment
▶ 2:13:19within a month or even 20 days Community Based care is absolutely a priority and important but that veteran then comes back to the VA and everyone in healthcare today is focused on treating the entire person and making sure that there's properly integrated care that is completely destroyed if we do not have an office in the VA that monitors that so this office of Community Care are you aware of firings that affected those offices sure I mean we I think we we all collectively are okay does does
▶ 2:13:49the vs does the does the veterans access act do anything to ensure that there's adequate Staffing at VA community care offices to process those referrals absolutely not nor does the bill do anything to mandate or require that community-based health care options can actually serve the veteran better at a lower cost in fact the vast majority of the time it's at a much higher cost which is a detriment to the taxpayer so help me understand this So currently at the office
▶ 2:14:19of Community Care at many point places at many medical centers I've heard that there may be appointments available inside the VA that could be offered to the veteran at a much shorter uh timeline meaning that the much F they get in faster at the VA than they could in the community um but then that doesn't often happen and often veterans may also are not offered the choice of going to the VA even it's if it's a little longer
▶ 2:14:49because VA has better outcomes on a particular specialty sure absolutely look and I go back to the Chairman's point that he made earlier uh if this committee is truly committed on a bipartisan basis to improving the VA and every single healthc Care Organization can improve what it would focus on is making sure that it can increase efficiency increase patient care which both can happen at the same time not on constantly figuring out ways to push veterans out of the institution
▶ 2:15:20I would be all in favor of Doge looking at community care coordination operations within VA to make sure that the the taxpayer is getting the best value sometimes the taxpayer will get much better value out of having the veteran actually be able to go and seek treatment in inside the VA uh and that if we adequately staffed the offic of Community Care uh that uh that this could all be done efficiently we
▶ 2:15:50would see veterans getting their appointments right so does the veterans access act do anything to improve manual processes that frequently lengthen the time it takes for a referral to be made no look and to to your point this is ultimately a detriment to the taxpayer because all too often these options outside of the VA cost so much more particularly with Healthcare consolidation as it is today this is something that Doge should actually be opposed to not in supportive well thank you my time is run out I you back
▶ 2:16:20Dr dor your re for 5 minutes thank you chairman boss um today my Republican colleagues are pushing a proposal to expand for-profit Care at the expense of our direct VA system the data shows that VA Health Care consistently outperforms for profit care in terms of quality and satisfaction that alone should make us skeptical of this policy but what makes us even more egregious is that they are pushing lower Quality Care at
▶ 2:16:51massive unwarranted cost to American taxpayers just last week the office of the Inspector General issued a report indicating that the third-party administrators who run the for-profit VA Care Program were overpaid by almost a billion dollar and that those for-profit entities predominantly opum are now refusing to return those overpayments to VA Congressman Rose thank you thank you for joining
▶ 2:17:21us since the passage of the VA Mission act va's expenditures on for-profit care has dramatically climbed is that correct yes okay in recent years year-over-year growth in Community Care expenditure has been as high as 19% and I bring this to show the vastly increasing proportion of community care versus indirect VA care 2017 versus 2023 Congressman Rose specialty providers in the community are not required
▶ 2:17:51to make quality of care data publicly available or report that data back to the VA is that accurate absolutely okay it's also true that providers in the community are not required to provide real-time data on weit times to Veterans is that accurate 100 100% we have no way when they seek privatized care to hold these institutions accountable or to have any centralized uh dashboard or metrics on a national basis so vetan doesn't make an
▶ 2:18:21informed decision about whether to wait for VA which they have a relatively reasonable um understanding of the wait versus a black box of going to the right and this is why I believe it should be the bipartison prerogative of this committee to be opposed to endly thin thinly veiled effort to privatize the VA which is all this is this is not an effort to improve patient care or save money I absolutely agree with you finally providers in the community do not have to return medical records to the VA after they see
▶ 2:18:52a patient is that correct absolutely I know this because I've been a VA provider in the VA in the Direct Care System I've trained VA doctors and I've been a community care provider outside of the VA and I've heard multiple times today care in the community is VA care I will tell you as somebody who's delivered that care that is absolutely not the case I didn't have access to the medications patients were taking their prior workup and when I finished with them I send them back
▶ 2:19:22into a blackbox it is absolutely a misappropriation of funds to do this work this way so thank you Congressman Rose for your uh responses as our VA system is robbed of funding that it desperately needs this is a zero sum game we're not making the pie bigger we need to serve our veterans it's insane that we are discussing a proposal to increase poor care disruptive care and at the cost of what we know is datadriven highly satisfactory care
▶ 2:19:52for our veterans so I look forward to working with you Congressman Rose to ensure that every veteran in this country has access to care at a properly funded VA that allows them to receive the comprehensive and integrated care that they deserve for us to continue this and move this bill forward is shameful it is 100% prospectively investing in community care that undermines veterans care and I thank you for this time yield back
▶ 2:20:22thank you ranking member do you have any closing remarks yeah um Mr chman I'd like to uh request unanimous consent to enter four items uh into the record I have um let me the list I have two items excuse me I have uh letters from every town gun safety and the Fraternal Order of Police to be entered into the record to ask that without objection yes thank you um you want final final comments or yeah yeah fine uh let me let me say
▶ 2:20:52Mr chairman um I I do hope that we can have a hearing uh specifically on the topic of uh the the unfairly dismissed uh employees from VA um those especially the veterans uh who had Stellar uh performance reviews but yet were still dismissed I don't think it's adequate that you've invited them to come speak with you personally I do think the American people want to know uh what happened and hold
▶ 2:21:22uh whoever made this decision because Miss th was not able to tell me uh who uh ordered her to uh to issue that memorandum which uh which fired every employee uh nor was she uh able to deal with this contradiction uh that uh in her Memo uh that people were fired for their performance uh but clearly we know that we have employees who had Stellar uh performance records
▶ 2:21:53let me say that I appreciate the testimony of the panel today um Mr Murray I didn't ask you many questions but I certainly appreciated uh what the vfw's views on many sections uh of the of the access act uh and that you like I and the VFW uh and My Views about the adequate balance of uh the proper balance between Community Care uh and Direct Care uh why I would you say it's it's really about for-profit
▶ 2:22:24care uh and uh and Direct Care within the VA I just want to make sure that uh we're not uh we're not sarily putting out referring into uh the private sector uh care that diminishes va's ability to uh to offer Direct Care 90% of the veterans are getting their care uh I mean 90% of the veterans who are enrolled in VA are getting their care through
▶ 2:22:54direct care and we don't want to see that uh that diminish by the trend uh that was shown by my my colleague from Oregon so with that um uh I yield back and um look forward to working with you uh on a future hearing and I thank you and we'll take everything you said under advisement I think that it's vitally important that we do recognize that just a few weeks ago in a hearing that GAO uh noted that 42% of the care
▶ 2:23:25which is given by the community is done for 25% of the cost that's important and this is that's why we should continue the discussion um not in any way shape or form to um privatize I've said that but it is important that the vet veteran remember and I've said it so many times and I've said it so many times today the VA was created for the veteran not for the VA who
▶ 2:23:55are we serving are we serving the bureaucrats at the VA or are we serving the veterans I and I believe my constituents even though I have a VA right down the road for me I believe a majority of my constituents believe we are to serve our veterans with that I want to thank all of our Witnesses for being here I look forward to addressing the problems that these with these bills would fix to provide solutions for our nation's veterans and their families and I will continue to push VA to strive for
▶ 2:24:25worldclass care and know it is capable of providing that for veterans under my leadership we will continue to work to ensure VA has the best in-class Workforce to deliver care and benefits and we will hold them accountable when they miss Mark miss the mark uh as chairman I will always put veterans first and they should never feel fearful of losing their con constitutional rights uh when they visit a with that I ask unanimous consent that all members have shall have five
▶ 2:24:55legislative days in which to revise and extend their remarks and include any exu waiting M extenuate material hearing no objection so ordered the hearing is now adjourned e