▶ 0:16:34The Committee on Homeland Security Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence will come to order. Without objection, this Committee may recess at any point. And without objection, the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Eli Crane, is permitted to sit on the dais and ask questions of the witnesses. The purpose of this hearing is to identify how foreign terrorist organizations like ISIS and other nefarious actors use the internet, online networks, and generative AI to recruit and radicalize individuals to commit violence and terrorist acts.
▶ 0:17:01This hearing will also explore policy solutions to ensure law enforcement agencies have the necessary tools and training to combat these threats. I now recognize myself for an opening Good afternoon. Welcome to the first Counterterrorism and Intelligence Subcommittee hearing of the 119th I'd like to begin by welcoming all the members here today.
▶ 0:17:23I'd also like to take a second to welcome several new members to the Committee, Representatives Gabe Evans, Ryan Mackenzie, Nellie Poe, and Pablo Jose And these members will be coming in after the vote series has just ended. But last Congress, this Subcommittee held various hearings on pressing national security issues.
▶ 0:17:42Those national security threats range from vulnerabilities posed by transnational criminal organizations and known or suspected terrorists at our southern border to the threats posed by the Chinese Communist Party and the Iranian regime to US homeland security. We will continue to work on those issues and expand our scope to include new and emerging threats.
▶ 0:18:01This Subcommittee also conducted critical oversight on important DHS entities such as the Office of Intelligence and Analysis and the ramifications of policy decisions made by the Biden administration such as our nation's withdrawal from Our nation faces many challenges and this Subcommittee must examine these threats through a clear and objective lens.
▶ 0:18:21Since 9/11 and the formation of this Committee, this Subcommittee has worked tirelessly to ensure that our nation understands the threats that face the US and that our law enforcement agencies have the proper tools to safeguard our country and the American people. As chairman of this Subcommittee, I'm committed to working with everyone on this Committee to advance these goals.
▶ 0:18:41Unfortunately, we did begin this year with a sober reminder that the same ideology that radicalized 19 individuals to hijack commercial airliners and fly them into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Shanksville, Pennsylvania, drove an individual to commit a heinous ISIS-inspired terror attack that killed 14 people and injured dozens more on Bourbon Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. Our thoughts and prayers with all of those affected by this tragedy.
▶ 0:19:08And since the terror attack, the nation has learned more about that particular perpetrator's background. The individual, Shamsudin Jabbar, is believed to have self-radicalized online through various propaganda channels affiliated with ISIS. The FBI has also confirmed that Jabbar's online search history indicated he conducted extensive research into the terror attacks that took place last year at a German Christmas market and that he pledged his support to ISIS on his personal online media accounts, including Facebook.
▶ 0:19:39The case related to Jabbar is not an isolated incident of an individual within the United States becoming radicalized online by foreign terrorist organization. Online radicalization is a significant terrorism threat that our nation currently faces. And in fact, the ranking member and myself have agreed that this would be the first hearing in a bipartisan way that we want to tackle this issue. And I hope everyone knows that we have worked together on this.
▶ 0:20:04And I hope that we can and and hone in on these particular issues right here in a bipartisan way. But at a recent Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee hearing, former FBI Director Wray highlighted the severity of the threat when he stated, and I quote, "The greatest terrorism threat to our homeland is posed by lone actors or small cells of individual individuals who typically radicalize to violence online and who primarily use easily accessible weapons to attack soft targets." End quote.
▶ 0:20:32To provide greater context between April 2021 and January of 2025, there were over 50 indictments against individuals who have worked to provide material support or carry out an attack on behalf of foreign terrorist organizations like ISIS, Al-Qaeda, and Hezbollah. Almost all of these individuals have been radicalized by terrorist media propagations. Americans' ability to access propaganda from foreign terrorist organizations is easier than ever.
▶ 0:20:59Group Groups like Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and Boko Haram are disseminating their propaganda at lightning speed across the globe on platforms such as Telegram and Reds. Hamas, Hezbollah, and other Iranian proxies have utilized TikTok and other platforms to spread propaganda in the West related to Israel's war with Hamas in hopes of radicalizing individuals to join their quest to launch a global intifada.
▶ 0:21:25We saw this hateful propaganda mold the actions of radicalized protesters at Columbia University and other colleges across the United States. Another stark example of online radicalization was seen last year when thousands of Americans went on TikTok and attempted to rationalize Osama bin Laden's letter to America and victim blame our nation for the atrocities that took place on 9/11.
▶ 0:21:48Moreover, we have now seen an increase in juvenile homegrown violent extremists inspired by foreign terrorist organizations media being shared on youth-oriented platforms. For instance, a 16-year-old in Las Vegas, Nevada was arrested after threatening a lone wolf terrorist attack in support of ISIS and possessing components and instructions to build a He wrote in a chat room that he would be starting lone wolf operations in Las Vegas against the enemies of Allah.
▶ 0:22:16There is no doubt that ISIS actively looks to inspire younger individuals and frequently produces media tailored to juveniles because they think they are more susceptible to terrorist ideologies and more accessible due to their online presence on a range of platforms. We must acknowledge and confront this urgent threat head on or we risk having another incident like we did in New Orleans.
▶ 0:22:37I hope today's discussion is the first of many productive conversations on the enduring terrorism threats our nation faces and how this subcommittee can find legislative solutions to overcome these challenges. And I also hope that while we may disagree here in a partisan way on some of the things that have happened in the last couple of years, I hope that we can really focus and limit blame, that we can take the context and the facts because I and I hope that the ranking member knows that I took
▶ 0:23:07seriously his inputs to having this hearing, to holding this hearing, to focusing on this not just as a sign of goodwill, but also as a sign that this committee, of all the committees in Congress, that this committee right here was formed after the worst terrorist attack in our country and that the sole reason we have this committee is to ensure that the oversight of those entrusted with national security of homeland security do it correctly.
▶ 0:23:35And with that, I thank our distinguished panel. I'll introduce you shortly and I'd like to yield to the gentleman from Rhode Island, my friend and the ranking member, Mr. Magaziner for his opening statement. I thank Chairman Pfluger for his kindness and also for having this hearing today. I think it is appropriate that this is our our first hearing in this subcommittee of the new Congress.
▶ 0:23:54It's a topic I've been interested in addressing for some time and I know that he's very interested in it as well because increasingly online radicalization is is one of the largest threats that we face to the homeland. I want to thank our witnesses for being here as well. On New Year's Day, 14 innocent people lost their lives and more than 50 were injured when a terrorist drove a pickup truck into a crowd on Bourbon Street in New Orleans.
▶ 0:24:21In their investigation after the attack, the FBI found that the attacker had been radicalized online through information about ISIS and engagement with ISIS According to the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Intelligence and Analysis, since August of 2023, so just a year and a half, law enforcement has disrupted five plots in which juveniles were radicalized by foreign terrorist organizations online and mobilized to plan terror attacks.
▶ 0:24:51Five times in just the last five years. I sorry, just the last year and a half. While foreign terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda exploit the internet to spread propaganda, they unfortunately are not the only bad actors who use online platforms to inspire individuals to violence.
▶ 0:25:10In September, the Justice Department indicted two individuals who are leaders of the so-called Terrorgram Collective, a domestic neo-fascist terrorist organization that used the Telegram platform to plot the murder of federal officials including a US senator, US District Court Judge, and a US Attorney who they considered to be, quote, "enemies of the white race." Terrorgram provided guidance and instructions for terror attacks encouraging the use of bombs to attack critical infrastructure
▶ 0:25:41such as government buildings and energy facilities as well. In December of 2023, the FBI arrested an Arizona man for using social media to incite a religiously motivated terror attack in Australia, an ambush shooting that killed six people including two police This individual and his wife and brother were motivated by an extreme religious ideology and attacked and killed victims simply for being law enforcement officers.
▶ 0:26:11We also know that online radicalization played a key role in the white supremacist extremist attack in Buffalo in 2022 when an 18-year-old terrorist killed 10 people, all of whom were An investigative report by the Office of the New York State Attorney General found that this individual learned about the so-called great replacement theory via memes, an ideology that he himself cited as the basis for his racist terror attack.
▶ 0:26:38So these are just a few examples of domestic violent extremists' use of the internet and digital content for recruitment and radicalization. And of course, foreign terrorist organizations, as has been noted, are using the same exact strategies, unfortunately often to lethal effect. Congress is not powerless to stop this. Social media companies and gaming companies can and should moderate violent extremist content online with proper consideration for protected speech.
▶ 0:27:07They should also cooperate with law enforcement investigations. To be clear, American citizens have a First Amendment right to hold and espouse extreme ideologies. However, there is no First Amendment right to plot acts of violence. There is no First Amendment right to recruit others into committing acts of violence. And foreign terrorists have no First Amendment rights of any sort.
▶ 0:27:34And so social media companies and gaming companies are in no way compelled to allow terrorists or criminals to use their platforms to incite violence. In fact, they should face consequences if they knowingly do so, and that is something that Congress needs to act on.
▶ 0:27:48I worked with Ranking Member Thompson to request that the Government Accountability Office examine how social media and gaming companies report and mitigate online content that promote violent extremism and the extent to which the FBI and DHS have developed goals and strategies for sharing information on the threat of violent extremism on social media and gaming The GAO produced its findings in January of 2024, which included neither but but neither DHS nor FBI have developed such a strategy.
▶ 0:28:19They must do so, and the strategy must be comprehensive to include all forms of online radicalization and excitement of violence, whatever the ideology behind it may be. It is my hope that this subcommittee will continue today's conversation with today's experts, but also with representatives of the social media and gaming online gaming industries and the relevant law enforcement agencies so that we can explore real answers including legislative solutions in combating online radicalization.
▶ 0:28:47I thank the chairman again for his bipartisan approach to this topic. I'm excited to work together on it and I yield back. I thank the ranking member. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. I'm pleased to have four distinguished witnesses before us today on this very important topic, some of whom have testified before this committee multiple times. And I ask that our panel of witnesses please rise and raise their right hand.
▶ 0:29:13Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the Subcommittee on Homeland Security of the United States House of Representatives with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Thank you. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative and I'll now formally introduce our panel of witnesses starting with Dr. David Gartenstein-Ross serves as a senior advisor on asymmetric warfare at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. He is also the founder and chief executive officer of Valens Global. Welcome.
▶ 0:29:44I'd like to introduce now Dr. Aaron Zelin, currently serve who currently serves as a senior research fellow at the Washington Institute where he directs the Islamic State Worldwide Activity Map Project. I'm also a graduate as a fellow of the Washington Institute. It's good to see you. I'd like to introduce Mr. Daniel Flesh who serves as a senior policy analyst for Middle East and North Africa at the Heritage Foundation and he previously served as an IDF paratrooper. Welcome. Uh and lastly, Dr.
▶ 0:30:12Kurt Braddock is an assistant professor of public communication in the School of Communication at American University and his research focuses on the strategies used by violent extremist groups to recruit and radicalize individuals targeted by propaganda. I thank everyone for being here. Thank you for your expertise. Thank you for your time. Uh we will now go to your opening statements. I know you have submitted uh written statements and and if you'd be so kind to summarize that uh at the 5-minute mark, you'll see uh the timer that counts down on that.
▶ 0:30:42With that, uh Dr. Gardenhire Ross, you're recognized for your opening statement. Thank you, Chairman Pfluger, Ranking Member Magaziner, distinguished members of the subcommittee. On behalf of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, thank you for the opportunity to testify on the important topic that the subcommittee is addressing today. In my written testimony, I discuss what my colleagues at Valens Global and I call composite violent extremism or Cove.
▶ 0:31:10It describes individuals who blend elements from multiple ideologies, grievances, and sentiments without adhering to a single, well-defined belief system. Cove was not created by the online Ideologically fluid extremists have existed for decades, but Cove's increasing prevalence is tied to the digital age.
▶ 0:31:33The internet has transformed how violent extremist beliefs form, spread, and We've seen this before. Technological shifts have repeatedly reshaped terrorism. And we are now living through the next great technological shift, one that is more momentous than the advent of the internet itself. This shift is the rapid development of artificial intelligence, especially generative AI.
▶ 0:32:04In 2018, I wrote an article titled Terrorists Are Going to Use Artificial At the time, the idea was debated, but from our vantage point today, it's not a prediction. It's happening. We have seen a recurring pattern in terrorists employing new technologies. Terrorists first fail with a new technology, often giving way to iterative experimentation, adaptation, and eventual success.
▶ 0:32:31Social media, encryption, and drones all followed this techno- this trajectory where initial crude attempts evolved into sophisticated applications, forcing governments to scramble for I call this pattern the violent non-state actor technology adoption curve, a consistent cycle in which terrorists initially struggle with new tools, but grow more adept at using them over time.
▶ 0:32:59We have seen this cycle unfold time and AI is not an exception. It is the next phase. Terrorists don't need cutting-edge AI research labs to weaponize artificial They only need access to the same widely available AI tools that businesses and individuals are already using. And as AI becomes more powerful, it will lower barriers to entry even further. These are not hypothetical threats for the distant future.
▶ 0:33:29They are real today. Bad actors are already experimenting with AI. To illustrate ways that AI and large language models can influence terrorist operations, there's propaganda and psychological warfare. AI can generate hyper-personalized extremist content, create deepfake recruitment videos, and use generative AI in recruitment agents that engage recruits dynamically.
▶ 0:33:53There's training and operational Large language models can generate tactical handbooks, simulate security vulnerabilities, and coach extremists step by step through attack planning. Some may assume that safeguards will prevent AI from being exploited.
▶ 0:34:09They Large language models are already easy to jailbreak, that is, to manipulate into bypassing built-in safeguards against generating prohibited or harmful Even platforms with thoughtful built-in restrictions can be manipulated. I don't want to explain the tactics to do so openly in this hearing, but I would be happy to generate basic jailbreaking techniques to any member who is Also, terrorists don't need ChatGPT.
▶ 0:34:36Other models like China's DeepSeek have fewer safeguards and are easier to and tech companies cannot rely on safety filters alone. A reactive approach is a losing In the over 20 years that I have worked on counterterrorism, one pattern has been painfully clear.
▶ 0:34:58We are too often reactive rather than The same failure of imagination that the 9/11 Commission warned of is still at If we fail to recognize how AI will reshape terrorism and extremism, we risk being blindsided in ways that could dwarf the digital era mistakes of the That's why legislative efforts such as the GenAI Terrorism Threat Assessment Act are important.
▶ 0:35:24This bill would ensure that DHS conducts regular assessments of how terrorist organizations use encrypted, cloud-based communication platforms. We need to monitor these trends rather than react when it's too late. If we aren't tracking how terrorists adapt to the technologies that are reshaping the world, we will always be behind. We should act before the next breakthrough becomes the next disaster. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your Thank you very much.
▶ 0:35:54Um the chair now recognizes Dr. Zelin for his opening Thank you, Chairman Pfluger. It's a great honor to do a hearing with you once again, uh Ranking Member Magaziner and the distinguished members of the subcommittee for giving me this opportunity to testify today on how terrorists use the internet today. This is an important topic in light of the recent New Orleans attack.
▶ 0:36:14On that day, Shamas Uddin Ali Jabar was killed in a shootout with police after driving his Ford pickup truck with an Islamic State flag through a New Year's crowd on Bourbon Street, killing 14 and injuring Prior to that attack, last October, he recorded a video of the French Quarter using his Meta smart glasses. Jabar also expressed support for IS in videos posted to Facebook, researched the December 2016 car attack at the Christmas market in Germany, and pledged allegiance to the group before his deadly attack.
▶ 0:36:43The following week, the Islamic State wrote an editorial in its weekly newsletter titled We Were There, where it gloated over Jabar's attack. It highlighted the group's influence and incitement capabilities. And the piece also boasted that the perpetrator used American technology, referring to the Meta smart glasses. The piece concluded by once again urging Muslims in both Europe and the United States to carry out more terrorist attacks, highlighting how IS uses one attack to push yet another. Jabar's attack also falls in line with the Islamic State's instructional attack planning.
▶ 0:37:12In particular, in mid-November 2016, in IS's English language magazine at the time called Rumiyah, it released an article titled Just Terror Tactics that discussed the use of pickup trucks, renting a vehicle if you did not have one, targeting pedestrian streets, and using a secondary weapon among other things. In this case, Jabar placed two coolers with explosive devices at two other locations in the city's French Quarter, and thankfully, they didn't explode also.
▶ 0:37:38Finally, the article tells prospective attackers to find an appropriate way for announcing one's allegiance to the caliphate, and in this way, we saw this with the Facebook post as well as him using the ISIS flag um on the car during the attack. This all shows that while this attack occurred in 2025, in many ways examples and guidance literature from almost a decade ago now that remains accessible online has a long shelf life, and not enough is still being done to make sure that potential attack orders do not have access to such content online.
▶ 0:38:07Beyond traditional propaganda efforts to recruit and incite, there are more recent innovations related to crypto, live streaming, and AI. Regarding crypto, based on data collected for the Washington Institute's Islamic State Worldwide Activity Map, since 2015, there have been at least 36 arrest cases globally related to jihadi use of cryptocurrencies with 13 of them happening in 2024 alone, illustrating a huge uptick in the past year.
▶ 0:38:33And it's likely that there are other cases as well that we just don't know about because it didn't come within the judicial system. This is not theoretical either. Last year in April, the FBI arrested an 18-year-old plotting an attack on churches in Idaho, and as part of his plot, he attempted to donate $11,000 to the Islamic State using the Monero cryptocurrency, which they promote in one of their English language magazines nowadays. Beyond traditional social media platforms, there's also been a rise in the use of TikTok by IS supporters.
▶ 0:39:02Based on data from the Islamic State Worldwide Activity Map, there have been 15 arrest cases since 2023 that have shown that the arrestees have been involved in one way or another with IS propaganda on TikTok. Just last week, for example, in Minneapolis, a man was arrested by the FBI and charged for attempting to provide material support to IS in Somalia. But as part of the investigation, he also actually praised the perpetrator of the IS-inspired attack in New Orleans on TikTok itself.
▶ 0:39:28As for live streaming, it could have been much more of a psychological effect nationally if the New Orleans attacker had live-streamed his attack on his Meta glasses through Facebook instead of only using it for reconnaissance purposes. We've seen past attacks in Europe from IS supporters using live streaming either during or after the attack. So, it's not something theoretical. Lastly, there are worries that generative AI could be exploited by terrorists. Thus far, at least amongst jihadis beyond propaganda, there has not been much evidence that is used in terms of for deadly effects.
▶ 0:39:58But, as Devid mentions, it's definitely a possibility in the future. And there have been inchoate conversations by IS supporters online only in last 2 weeks or so about the Chinese application deep seek and how they could potentially exploit it. It's of course too soon to see how that might evolve, but it's definitely troubling. Beyond the specifics of how terrorists might exploit technology, policies related to technology and platforms also have a role in providing space or making it very difficult to use.
▶ 0:40:25In recent years, due to controversies related to censorship within the West politically, there have been a backlash related to moderating content online, even if it's extremist in nature. This should not be overblown, however, since jihadi use is still not as widespread on mainstream platforms as it was a decade ago. But, in a relative sense, there is greater space for jihadis to exploit these platforms than in the past 2 or 3 years.
▶ 0:40:48I know time is short, so I'll just briefly mention that the US government should urge technology companies and social media platforms to redouble their efforts at content moderation related to the jihadi movement and go beyond just Arabic and English to nation spaces of greater exploitation recent years with languages in Africa and Central Asia in particular. Although there have been recent calls to cut funding and jobs across the US government, cutting ones related to tracking online jihadi recruitment and attack plotting could undermine future security and lead to greater risks at home and abroad.
▶ 0:41:18And no one, of course, wants to see yet another successful attack like the one we recently saw in New Orleans. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Zelin. The chair now recognizes Mr. Fleisch for his opening statement. Good afternoon, Chairman Pfluger and Ranking Member Magaziner and members of the subcommittee. I thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important topic today.
▶ 0:41:37In addition to my work in the Middle East at the Heritage Foundation, I also manage the Heritage's National Task Force to Combat Antisemitism, a coalition of organizations committed to defeating the current anti-American wave of antisemitism in the United States. From my experience, including sir, as you mentioned, serving in the IDF, I saw how terror organizations engaged in a war against Israel are also recruiting and radicalizing Americans.
▶ 0:42:01Put another way, there's a direct connection between the war for survival Israel is fighting in the Middle East and the one America, whether we are aware of it or not, is fighting at home. The threat today must be understood in the context of Hamas's October 7th Within hours of Hamas executing the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust, many across this country took to the streets against the Jewish state, our ally, and in solidarity with a US-designated terrorist organization.
▶ 0:42:29And 17 months later, they have not relented. Just last week, a mob of students wearing masks and keffiyehs and shouting free Palestine at Barnard College in New York City became violent, leading to several Among many things, October 7th revealed the extent to which a certain population within our country is already or inclined to become radicalized.
▶ 0:42:51It is telling that Hamas's invasion of Israel and the massacre and abduction of civilians, including Americans, was a spark that prompted this population to reveal itself. Consider the now commonplace call for an Those who threaten to globalize the intifada make clear that their goal is not to affect US policy towards Israel or the Middle East, but to destroy the United States through violent political revolution that features a Palestinian-inspired strategy of indiscriminate attacks on civilians to include
▶ 0:43:21the murdering of children. These intifada-supporting organizations and individuals and the useful idiots that march or encamp alongside them presents the most fertile ground for recruitment by terrorist groups. This population is most susceptible to the propaganda of Hamas and other extremist factions within the Palestinian and broader Arab world who depict the graphic violence of the October 7th attack and the ensuing war as a form of martyrdom.
▶ 0:43:48They share videos and images on social media platforms like X, Facebook, and Instagram and to rally support, spread them on encrypted messaging apps like Extremist groups and supporters turn these platforms and apps into a radicalizing propaganda tool. They post unverified and highly disturbing content that lacks context or factual checks. This is designed to elicit a raw emotional reaction, which is best to reach younger generations.
▶ 0:44:16Organizations like Students for Justice in Palestine, SJP, and others rebroadcast and disseminate these messages and images. They invite their social media account followers to various trainings and to join more private communication channels such as Signal, where they may conduct their actual planning and coordination.
▶ 0:44:35In framing the October 7th violence, for example, as a noble act in the struggle against an occupying force, Hamas linked and other extreme channels cross-pollinate ideas from different groups, including those agitating against Israel, the Jews, the United States, and the West.
▶ 0:44:52Last summer, the Director of National Intelligence revealed that the Islamic Republic of Iran was also, quote, posing as activists online, seeking to encourage protests and even providing financial support to protesters, end The combined effect of these efforts is to radicalize adherents to engage in violent criminal activity. Consider just some recent examples.
▶ 0:45:14In November, FBI and local police found rifles, ammunition, and explosive device in the home of two Palestinian-American sisters who are students at George Mason University and leaders in their campuses' SJP chapter.
▶ 0:45:27They had previously defaced the student center with threats of a student On New Year's Day, as we've discussed, hours after an ISIS-inspired terrorist killed 14 civilians in a deadly car attack in New Orleans, pro-Palestinian protesters marched in Times Square chanting for an intifada. And one of the organizers of the Barnard College protest from last week, Columbia SJP, proudly and publicly proclaims on its X profile, quote, long live the student intifada and glory to our martyrs, end quote.
▶ 0:45:58Terror organizations are acting are actively radicalizing and recruiting an impressionable population for their nefarious means. Efforts should be taken to detect, deter, and defeat their networks, including their organizational organizational supporters and foot soldiers in America. Israel defeated the Palestinian second intifada by simultaneously playing offense and defense.
▶ 0:46:20We need such a dual approach today, one that sees law enforcement be proactive against these threats and a civil society that creates its own barrier, beyond which today's anti-American form of antisemitism is no longer tolerated. If we fail to act now, it is only a matter of time before we may see an intifada on American streets. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Fleisch. The chair now recognizes Dr. Braddock for his opening statement. Thank you, Chairman Pfluger Pfluger, and thank you, Ranking Member Magaziner, and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:46:48I first like to thank you for the invitation to appear before this Issues related to recruitment radicalization via the internet have pervaded the study of violent extremism for decades, and it's heartening to know that legislators remain cognizant of these complex processes and are determined to undermine them when and where possible. I'd also like to note that any statements I make in my testimony don't necessarily reflect the position of my institution or any research centers with which I'm affiliated.
▶ 0:47:14The testimony I provide here is based solely on my 20 years of findings as a researcher of communication media radicalization and I formally studied the communicate the communicative tactics of domestic left-wing and right-wing extremist groups, foreign terrorist entities of nearly every political or religious ideology, lone actor terrorists, and everything in between. Incidentally, it's the time that I've spent studying diverse kinds of terrorist actors that helped me to understand radicalization processes in a systematic manner.
▶ 0:47:44The first and most difficult fact to confront is that the processes by which people come to support the use of terrorism are as varied as the individuals that experience them. As such, no single hearing can be sufficient to comprehensively describe these issues, but I'm glad to hear from Chairman Pfluger that this is only the start of a bipartisan conversation about Nevertheless, after 20 20 years of observation, interviews, controlled experiments, and data analysis, I've noticed some patterns among not only the cases of radicalization to terrorism I've studied, but also the context in which
▶ 0:48:14they have occurred. It's these commonalities on which I'll focus. But, rather than use my initial time to outline the elements of radicalization processes as I've come to understand them, I'd like to offer four key themes, lessons learned, and recommendations in my spoken testimony. Of course, I'm happy to elaborate on any of these. I feel it's a mistake to treat, quote, online radicalization as exclusively distinct from offline radicalization.
▶ 0:48:39In many cases, individuals who are recruited by extremist groups undergo radicalization via their behaviors online are often found to be engaging in parallel behaviors offline. Moreover, the psychological processes that people undergo when they radicalize online are similar to what they would experience offline.
▶ 0:48:56Still, there are some technological features of the internet in general and social media in particular that can affect these While it can be valuable to be cognizant of these features and their effects, as well as how they can be leveraged by extremist groups, online and offline radicalization are heavily intertwined and should be understood as such. disinformation perpetuated via social media is a key driver of beliefs and attitudes that make users susceptible and vulnerable to recruitment and radicalization by extremist groups.
▶ 0:49:24To a large extent, radicalization to violence via straightforward propaganda disseminated by a cohesive, well-defined extremist group is limited, at least in the United States. Instead, most cases in which an individual radicalizes to violence seems to be due to a process whereby that individual engages with content on social media or other internet-based platforms both as a function of their own information seeking and algorithmic suggestions that's consistent with their beliefs and attitudes.
▶ 0:49:51Consistent with the what Devid said, this often leads to what's been informally called salad bar radicalizations where individuals can pick and choose from different Third, the revenue models of many social media platforms are designed such that the platforms executives and administrators are disincentivized from stemming the flow of disinformation other content that might promote radicalization to violence.
▶ 0:50:14Social media platforms are capable of building models of users that help them know what additional content will keep them engaged and there thereby valuable to advertisers. As such, users, particularly those who are interested in politics, tend to remain engaged with this ideological content that arouses anger and fear about some out-group. This in turn increases polarization and animosity among those who ideologically disagree.
▶ 0:50:38The longer eyeballs stay fixed on content, the more valuable ad space is and content that promotes anger at perceived enemies is very effective at keeping those eyeballs where they're most lucrative. Finally, fourth, addressing online recruitment and radicalization requires a multi-pronged approach that's both reactive and proactive. Research shows that content moderation effectively stems the flow of disinformation and propaganda on social media platforms exposing fewer viewers to them.
▶ 0:51:05However, I would also advocate for digital literacy initiatives that inform users, especially young users, not only about the kinds of content they might encounter, but the strategies used by malicious actors to persuade them. There are several studies in both the US and in Europe that show that pre-bunking or preemptively undermining this kind of content helps build resilience to its persuasive effects. And with that, I thank you again for the opportunity to appear before this subcommittee and I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. I thank you all for your opening statements.
▶ 0:51:35Uh members will be recognized in order of seniority. Uh we'll also have members that are cycling uh in and out. Um an additional round of questioning may be called after all members have been recognized and I'll now recognize myself um for 5 minutes of Dr. Gartenstein-Ross, I mean, the big question here is the First Amendment and how we prevent attacks, how we prevent, you know, these terrorist attacks from from happening.
▶ 0:52:02As I've heard your testimonies and read your your written statements. So, um how do we differentiate between the the constitutionally protected speech and then also the speech that may uh advocate for violence uh and terrorism. How do we protect the First Amendment and thwart that violence? Thank you, Chairman Pfluger. That's a great question. Uh one case that I recommend people to be familiar with is the Sami al-Hussayen case.
▶ 0:52:30It occurred in Idaho shortly after the 9/11 attacks. He was prosecuted for terrorist propaganda. Ultimately, the jury found him not guilty based on First Amendment grounds and after that case, um there've been very few just propaganda prosecutions. I think Ranking Member Mazie Hirono put it right when he talked about how there's no right to incite people to attack. There's no right to recruit people to terrorist groups. Foreign terrorists don't have a right, but I think when you get into that kind of gray area, I expect to see very few prosecutions.
▶ 0:53:01Instead, it's when there's incitement to imminent lawlessness, which is the First Amendment standard. Thank you. Dr. Zellan, you mentioned something in your spoken testimony about Jabbar and his posting. Um and so I want to follow up on this question. Should we have known? Could we have known? What what could have been Um and did his speech actually violate the protected speech or was he still in that protected speech uh Thank you, Chairman.
▶ 0:53:30Um it's it's definitely a complicated issue, but based off of Facebook's own policies through their dangerous organizations unit within the uh Facebook, they have their own sort of FTO list and if you provide support to that group, which this individual did by pledging allegiance to the caliph, that would be considered contravening, you their own policies. And again, these are private companies.
▶ 0:53:55This isn't related to speech about politics per se, but within the context of a private company that sets its own policies. Um of course, there isn't a such a thing as necessarily 100% security or successes in these issues. Um but if there are more proactive measures um with more people involved in trying to follow these issues, I think it's definitely a possibility that something could be stopped for sure. You talked about content moderation um and is it your belief that's done at the platform level?
▶ 0:54:27Yeah, I mean, of course, Congress could potentially regulate to make sure that they actually follow certain way of doing it, but there have been methodologies that have been laid out by the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, which is essentially a consortium of key American tech companies such as Google, uh X, uh Facebook, Microsoft, etc.
▶ 0:54:47in terms of how they find the digital footprint or fingerprints of these issues uh to take this content down, but the terrorists, of course, are evolving themselves as well, so it's key to try and stay on top of it because as we take content down or ways of taking content, they try and then go around it.
▶ 0:55:06For example, instead of saying like the Islamic State or whatever, they'll put like dots in between each letter or an underscore so that it trips up um the content moderation uh at least in terms of, you know, uh written types of stuff. Thank you. Mr. Fleischmann, you you talked about George Mason University.
▶ 0:55:26I was made aware that there was an incident on Georgetown's campus um where a convicted uh terrorist named Rima Karaja uh who was found to be a member of the PFLP uh was invited to speak um and allowed to speak uh at um you know, a student-led organization or or on campus there.
▶ 0:55:47So, you've got somebody that was involved in a bombing in Israel, that was part of the PLO um and comes onto one of the campuses to just what what needs to happen here? What's the the university's responsibility and then conversely, what's the responsibility of either federal or or state and local law enforcement? Certainly, thank you, Chairman. I think the first thing is to recognize that while we all talked a lot about Hamas and I focused on them in my my testimony, the fact is there are a number of terrorist organizations in this in related to the Palestinian population that has presence here.
▶ 0:56:16PFLP, the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine, goes back 50 plus years, involved in US-designated terrorist organization. So, recognizing that the threat is not just from Hamas, Hezbollah, these other big names we hear about, there's a number of other organizations that also are designated US terrorist organizations. So, that's number one.
▶ 0:56:31Number two is um reaching out to and ensuring that student groups on campus are aware of this and those that that do invite members of these organizations, those that have been convicted for for terrorism, and this individual was involved in the killing of a 19-year-old Israeli a few years ago, um that they should not not be involved in uh invited to campus in whatsoever.
▶ 0:56:51And I think from a federal perspective, you need to have start looking into um the universities that provide for these student groups, provide for these organizations, and if they give platforms to terrorist-supporting individuals or terrorists themselves, they should, you know, withdraw federal funding from them. I think it was shameful that uh the university allowed um this individual to even uh announce uh such of a meeting. So, um my time has expired. I now recognize the ranking member. Thank you.
▶ 0:57:20I'd like to start by focusing on the responsibility of the social media and messaging platforms or what the responsibility should be and I think starting with the framework that we've laid out that hopefully everyone here is agrees with, which is that there is a First Amendment right to have different political views, even extreme political views, but there's not a First Amendment right to plot violence or incite violence.
▶ 0:57:42Like if we can agree with that as a premise, when you have speech that is inciting violence, plotting violence, what does effective content moderation look like and how can we ensure some level of standardization across the platforms to make sure they're actually doing it? And um you know, I I we can start maybe with Dr. Zellan and then Dr. Braddock or anyone else. Thank you, Ranking Member um Mazie Hirono.
▶ 0:58:10In terms of ways of doing this, there have been a few methodologies that have tried out. One is related to having a digital fingerprint for different textual, audio, pictorial, and video content so that if that particular piece of content it shows up on any particular platform, it'll be wiped out right away. Um going further than that, there's also a way of going after IP addresses of people who have posted type of content to make sure that they're not allowed to create secondary accounts because this is one of the things that has happened before.
▶ 0:58:41Um the bigger question though beyond just content in English language is that other languages have lagged far behind on these fronts. When you were talking about issues like ISIS where Arabic and English has gotten better, but when we get into Africa, Central Asia, and elsewhere, it's it's way worse and there's a free-for-all in some ways. Thank you, Dr. Braddock. I would just echo what Dr. Zellan just said about the the moderation of content, automating it, looking for visual content, looking for written content.
▶ 0:59:09But something that I think that we we haven't missed it, but something that can be emphasized is not just content that's taken down. Dr. Zellan mentioned other the banning of IP addresses, but banning users who spread this kind of information. I think that needs to be part of the toolkit as well because there's research that shows that as these users are banned from certain platforms, their reach grows smaller and smaller and that's what we want from these mass propagandists.
▶ 0:59:33So, this is a helpful use of sort of best practices, but when we think about what the role of Congress should be, I mean, I you know, I personally feel that Congress does have a role to ensure that a baseline of best practices are followed across all platforms. And again, to me this is not a First Amendment issue because we're not saying that we're moderating political beliefs or anything like that. It's specifically incitement of violence. There is precedent here because Congress has uh has essentially banned non-consensual pornography and other types of content.
▶ 1:00:02There's no successful First Amendment challenge to that. So, you know, again, what would congressional action look like potentially in order to ensure that there's at least a baseline of appropriate moderation and occurring across all platforms cuz I agree some platforms are doing it or doing it well, doing it somewhat well. Others aren't even trying. So, what's our role here?
▶ 1:00:26I mean, one way would be to potentially regulate to make sure that all platforms that work in the United States follow certain types of, you know, methodologies, I guess you can say, so that when certain companies change who's in charge of them or, you know, policies change for whatever reason, that there's a certain standard that everybody lives up to to make sure that you know, violent extremists, terrorists, what have you, are not able to take advantage. Yeah.
▶ 1:00:53Um we've been talking a lot about social media platforms that I think we all, you know, we think about TikTok and X and Facebook, et cetera. Um but my understanding is that online gaming platforms uh are becoming ripe ground for radicalization as well. Uh sort of the messaging and communication features on gaming platforms, people are recruited and and sort of groomed sometimes for extremism.
▶ 1:01:15Would anyone like to comment on gaming platforms specifically and what you're I can comment briefly and I'm um I I my understanding is it started really in some of these games. It starts in the interactive chat where people are spreading epithets or or trying to recruit almost passively. But there are certain, I mean, there's social media gaming type platforms like Discord where people can meet and talk and plan and exchange different kinds of pictures, text, anything they want in the same way they could on another social media platform.
▶ 1:01:45So, it's almost like traditional social media and gaming social media, so to speak. There's this intersection where they're where they're exploiting the freedom they have there. Yeah. I'm low on time, but real quick, pre-bunking. Can you just explain a little bit more Oh, that was what what that is and Yeah, so there's a lot of research out of Cambridge um that shows that when you address a person, if they're we know they're going to be persuaded by a certain kind of content, if we make them aware of that content before they're exposed to it and let them know that they are susceptible to persuasion, people, especially
▶ 1:02:15in the United States and the UK, they don't like knowing that they're susceptible to persuasion. So, they put their defenses up and they're more likely to recognize it when they encounter it. And the research coming out of Cambridge has shown that you can gamify this, you can turn it into a game. People get very, very good at recognizing when malicious actors, whether they be foreign or domestic, are trying to persuade them. Thank you. So, follow on, you back. General, your time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Georgia, Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:02:45Thank you for being here today, our witnesses. As we know, the politically weaponized FBI and DOJ under the Biden administration went after peaceful pro-lifers, J6ers, and Catholics attending Latin Mass, parents trying to hold their school boards accountable, and many more conservatives. They refused to prosecute heinous sex crimes against children and actual terrorist who wanted death to America and chanted it in our streets.
▶ 1:03:15In October 2023, rioters from the Jewish Voice for Peace and If Not Now, both violent pro-Islamic groups that support Hamas, invaded the Capitol Complex. As a matter of fact, they came in this building right here. And they took over the Cannon Rotunda. Their actions, uh they they completely shut down the elevators, the stairwells, the hallways.
▶ 1:03:41They blocked exits um and and the police officers were And they took over and stopped hearings and they stopped Congress. Same way January 6th did, although they were not And they were not held accountable the same way protesters on January 6th were.
▶ 1:04:02Now, I bring this up today because the riot organizers that that held this riot here in the in the Cannon building, not only communicated through a chat that appears to be Signal, similar to the ones similar to different messaging programs you've spoken about. Um but the title of the chat was Global Intifada.
▶ 1:04:27So, if you see it's hard for you to see, I know, from here, but this picture right here is a screenshot of one of their cell phones as they were communicating with each other. You can see in the background their signs. It was taken over in the Cannon Rotunda, but right here it says Global Intifada.
▶ 1:04:48They were an organized group and they had organized this uh riot here in the Cannon building. And Mr. Fleshman, your testimony, you talk about globalizing the Intifada. What is the goal of for globalizing Intifada not only worldwide, but in the streets of America? Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:05:14Well, the the goal of people calling to globalize Intifada is is to bring a Palestinian-inspired strategy of violence uh political revolution targeting civilians, including children. It's essentially to overthrow the United States and to defeat the fabric of society in the United States. So, their stated goal is to overthrow the United States and they organized and they call themselves Global Intifada and they came in this building in 2023.
▶ 1:05:44That is shocking. if you look at the names of the members in the group chat, you'll find the lead for the Southern Poverty Law Center, the SPLC, Katrina Bleckley. Right here. Katrina Bleckley is part of the Global Intifada. Lead attorney for the Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 1:06:09This is the same law center that provided nearly 40 pages of testimony to the same January 6th Committee that was prosecuting people for protesting the 2020 election. this is also the same law center that was cited in the FBI memo that labeled traditional Catholics as radical This is the same law center, which has nearly 770 million in assets, by the way, and was given over
▶ 1:06:39$8,000 by the Department of State in 2021 for speaking engagements with Lisa Brooks. So, we're here talking about online but we're also through this this this right here is proof for every single American that this radicalization that's happening online is radicalization that has happened right here in our government that stopped Congress.
▶ 1:07:06Um I would also like to to highlight the threat of online radicalization and how the threat within our own homeland has been exasperated by more than 12 million illegals the Democrats allowed to pour into our communities under Biden with 2 million of them being known got-aways who we have no who no clue where they are from, where they are now, and what their motives are inside our homeland. Uh Dr.
▶ 1:07:32Gartenstein-Ross, can you briefly outline, I know I'm out of time here, the the key methods foreign terrorist groups use to radicalize individuals online to not only join their ranks, but carry out attacks. Thank you, Mr. Thank you, ma'am. about 30 seconds. Sure. Um to do it very quickly, um as Dr. Braddock said, there often is not a great gulf between what's done online and offline.
▶ 1:07:58Online, generally speaking, methods include looking at people who seem susceptible to propaganda, forging a relationship with them. They sort of act as a social movement in that way. Um getting to know people who they want to recruit. And I've written about what's called the virtual plotter model that was um that ISIS used a lot and I believe still does in a number of different ways, which uses encryption often to be with attackers right up until the moment that they attack. Thank you. General, your time has expired.
▶ 1:08:27The chair now recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Correa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for holding this hearing. I think one thing that unites all of us across the aisle our interest and our goal of protecting our citizens from terrorist attacks, domestic or foreign terrorists as it may be. that job, I would say, is like finding a needle in a haystack. you need intel. You need to work with our foreign partners.
▶ 1:08:57Uh that's why we have FISA and our ability to gather intelligence to figure it out. You know, General Kelly, former um Secretary of Homeland Security, used to say that border security does not end or begin at the border, but it's rather a compilation of a lot of work, a lot of intel work with our partners across the seas and other places.
▶ 1:09:25At the end of the day, you have US government agencies that put this stuff together and decide try to decide, try to anticipate these attacks. FBI, CIA, other agencies along with state and locals that try to figure this out. I would say a lot of these agents are patriots.
▶ 1:09:49They work government where they could be making a whole lot more money private sector, but they're working for the government cuz they believe in the And I'm I'm concerned over these firings that I see at FBI and CIA agents. What's it going to do for morale of those are left? What's it going to do for those who just got fired?
▶ 1:10:13There's a story that Chinese and Russian operatives are trying to recruit some of these fired individuals to work for them. But at the end of the day, I want to ask you gentlemen, each of you, these firings, is this good for our national security, Mr. Garsten Ross? Is this good or bad? Morale, you're losing a whole lot of intelligence, experience. Please, opine. Sir, thank you for the question.
▶ 1:10:44I'd be very happy to talk to you about this. I'm not here to testify on it and the reason specifically Thank you very much. Mr. Dr. Zellin. It's hard to know what specifically is being cut with a bit more transparency, but there's definitely a case to be made that less people focusing on these issues could lead to greater risks in the future. I mean, look, you fire folks even though that person fired may be somebody who's 2 years, 5 years.
▶ 1:11:14I mean, they're going to look the person that's left behind working on this stuff is saying, I mean, what's it going to do for your morale? Am I going to be the next one? Do you think that would possibly affect your effectiveness defending the It's definitely plausible. Obviously, what's going on now is very new, so we don't have a test case to know the specifics of what could happen, but less people focusing on these threats online definitely could mean less eyes on something that something then passes through.
▶ 1:11:42And let me say that these folks have to have defense. You can't score one point on us. They cannot. That means American Mr. Flesh, what do you think? Firing good, bad, morale?
▶ 1:12:00I I would echo what my colleagues have said that it's a little early to tell the effect of these policy, but certainly I'm happy to have a conversation after the fact, but focusing on the radicalizing element is what I've been brought here to talk Well, I certainly hope that we don't get to the day when we say it was a little bit too late, not too early, but not too Mr. Rattick, thoughts? I'll say bad, but not so much I agree with Dr.
▶ 1:12:25Zellin about the fact that that's an issue of the number of personnel, the number of eyes you have on this content and the users. I also think it's it's it's a issue of institutional knowledge. There are ways the terrorists communicate online that take a long time to understand. Give an example. I recently saw a study that are showing that some foreign terrorist organizations, they communicate via exclusively emojis. They just use emojis and they're coded in different ways.
▶ 1:12:53Now, if somebody has that institutional knowledge related to the use of emojis, So, experience matters. Experience And firing people may not be the wisest thing to do. And I'm not trying to get political here. I'm just saying that all of us have a vested interest in protecting the homeland. That's why homeland security was created after 9/11 when we'd had holes in the system when we had silos that didn't talk to each other.
▶ 1:13:199/11 could have been prevented possibly, but that's why we're here and I'm concerned that the firing of these individuals will hurt us defending the homeland in the long term. Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony, Mr. Chairman. I'm out of time. I yield. Gentleman yields. Chairman now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Luttrell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, gentlemen.
▶ 1:13:51I represent a small portion of Harris County, Houston, Texas. this pains me to say this, but Houston, Texas is the worst city in the country for sex trafficking. And I've had multiple discussions, meetings, various agencies, law enforcement up and down the elected leadership not only in Harris County, but the state. How do you solve a problem I sit on the I-10/45 corridor?
▶ 1:14:20How do you solve a problem where these And just to be clear, cartels are not known as terrorist organizations. So, I'm going to throw this on you guys. The conversations that I have with these folks is like, how do we solve this problem? How do you cut the head off the snake? How do you get rid of these bad actors to save our babies? Cuz they're going after our children. And it always circles back to the It lives and breathes online.
▶ 1:14:48And that's how they communicate, that's how they recruit, and that's how they set the And then our children are moved into horrible space and become victims. And I I want to hear from all four of you, how do we adjust you And I think it was Mr. Flesh you said regulate. How do we regulate the system? I'm sorry, I must Dr. might have been you, Dr. who said we regulate the space, right? Regulate the system.
▶ 1:15:15Which I'm not speaking for my colleagues, but I I'm sure they can they would absolutely get on board with the fact that this is a problem we shouldn't when it comes to the protection and of our babies, right? How do we fix this? And if we regulate it, it's going to have to come from the subject matter experts, which would would be you all or those that control either the social media platforms, the gaming Because the best thing I can do to my for my children is is inform them
▶ 1:15:46of what happens out there. But when I talk to the parents whose whose children have been they just they never saw it coming. How Dr. Ross, I'll start with you, sir. Thank you, sir. It's a great question and I'll take it from the cartels angle first and foremost. That's something that I've done a fair amount of work on in some of my projects for US Customs and Border Protection.
▶ 1:16:11I'd move it a little bit away from the online space and the way we've looked at cartels in our work for CBP is how do you shift their incentives? Cartels are many things, but among them they're a business and I would look at the cartels center of gravity. I think that right now we're playing defense vis-a-vis the cartels with respect to trying to stop them at the borders.
▶ 1:16:33One way I would look at it is there's a number of different vulnerabilities that they have and how do you shift those incentives through causing some pain to them, but doing so in a way that isn't too costly for us at the same time. I think that that's very important because the flow of human Where would that Great. I mean, that's Okay, you're opening up I don't know if I'm going to say you're opening up Pandora's box there, but if we're going to move them away from sex trafficking, drug trafficking and and all that illegal and nefarious acts, we're not going to make them a legitimate company.
▶ 1:17:02Where do I mean, where do we push them? Yeah, I don't think that trying to make them a legitimate company is the way to go. Obviously, there are some who who argue for that, but I think that there are different ways that we can undertake points of pain vis-a-vis cartels. Obviously, like there's a whole conversation around cartels right now, designations, possibly use of military force and the like. One thing that we know is that cartels are fighting against two sets of enemies in most places they operate.
▶ 1:17:29They're fighting number one against the Mexican government, both federal and state, and number two, they're also fighting against other cartels as well. Often times, you know, picking your enemy and leaving other enemies alone can have a very serious effect on them.
▶ 1:17:45Anyway, I don't want to advocate for something specific other than say that I think there's a different way to look at it that we tend to look at defense at the border and I think there's a secondary way to look at it, which is cartels have incentives, they have vulnerabilities, and if we look at the question as how is it that rather than doing what you could call operation same same, meaning we have the same operations over and over mobilizing to the border, how is it that you shift their incentives in a way that will have a lasting effect?
▶ 1:18:14I think that it's a complex answer, but that's the way I would formulate the question to hopefully get something that is more lasting than what we have now. Dr. Zellin, you got 21 seconds, sir. Are we doing Thank you for the question, but it's not a subject I personally focus on, so I don't have as much experience on it. Flesh, go ahead. I I echo WHAT MY AH, DON'T WE CAN'T RUN. HEY, HEY, HEY. You need to hear me say this. Don't run away from this.
▶ 1:18:44This This is the worst worst thing you can possibly imagine when you see these babies, okay? And if if you're not studying it, I'm not not going to I can't sit here on this dais and tell you to do that. I'll take 10 seconds cuz I know we're out of time. But I'm good with that.
▶ 1:19:04Yeah, I we had a child abducted near my hometown as well a couple of years ago assumed to have been sold in the sex trafficking as well, so it's near and dear to me as My my main point would be we've been focusing on content moderation, the responsibility of the platforms to focus on content. I also think there could be more of platforms can do more to regulate what's going on in private messaging on those platforms between people because that's a lot of the ways that these individuals are reaching out to children.
▶ 1:19:30Is there engaging with them in these private messages on Facebook, on Instagram, on whatever platform you choose. And when those personal relationships develop, that's how kids are groomed and they're taken. So, I would say focus on that as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman's time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from New York, Mr. Goldman. Thank you very much, Mr.
▶ 1:19:50Chairman, and I am also want to echo my support for having this Uh especially cuz I tried uh futilely and desperately last Congress to have a hearing on a similar topic. Uh in November of 2023, I wrote a letter led a letter to uh Elon Musk on X because in the 6 weeks following October 7th attack that Mr.
▶ 1:20:16Flesh uh so powerfully referenced, uh there was massive distribution of Hamas and other terrorist propaganda videos uh and even some generated profit on X. I I got no response written response. I guess that part of the 75% cut in Twitter that Elon Musk did went to the government affairs office. So, then in March, I wrote to Chairman Comer.
▶ 1:20:47I was on the Oversight Committee asking for a hearing on this uh because it continued and in fact the uh Secretary General of Hezbollah, actually wrote a tweet complaining about having his blue check mark taken down. Um so, that was an issue that also related to violating sanctions.
▶ 1:21:12No word from Chairman Comer, and then we wrote a letter to the speaker uh in August. Uh no response, no hearing. So, I I'm glad we're having this and I take the gesture of bipartisanship seriously. And Dr. Zellan, I I want to come to you first because uh I noticed in your opening statement, Dr.
▶ 1:21:34Braddock, you said the similar things that um these a lot of these problems have been exacerbated by a reduction in content moderation. Uh and in fact, you said the beginning with Elon Musk's purchase of the level of content moderation in general has backslid.
▶ 1:21:55Uh of course, recently, Mark Zuckerberg announced that Meta was eliminating all content And I uh certainly we're we're we're grappling with the First Amendment, but there there's no possible way um to stop the online proliferation of terrorism without some degree of content moderation. Is that right, Dr. Zellan? Yes, thank you for the question. Uh I I agree.
▶ 1:22:25I mean, obviously we have our own internal debates within the United States, partisan debates, what have you. But when we're talking about foreign terrorist organizations, we need to be clear that they should not have a space on these platforms, especially American-owned companies.
▶ 1:22:40Um and and the current state of things is definitely backslid in recent And part of the part of the reason they that they should not is that they are professional criminal organizations, to put it a different way. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, they do in you know, they're doing things illegally according to the US law, for sure.
▶ 1:23:03And and so, we don't want crimes to be committed online in our American on our American companies, right? That's correct. So, this is where we run into problem because um some believe that the free speech is an absolute right.
▶ 1:23:23You can say anything you want to say, and of course, that would include inciting violence, uh potentially committing crime, um and also sex trafficking as as my colleague aptly pointed out. So, this is not an academic exercise in and discussing the First Amendment. This has real-world significance that you all have Mr.
▶ 1:23:50Flesh, uh when I was walking over here uh after we just voted, um outside the Capitol, I saw a huge poster with a swastika on it. I know you've spoken a lot about the rise of uh anti-Semitism, anti-Israel sentiment post-October 7th, and I agree with you about that, and I condemn it But we're also seeing a rise of
▶ 1:24:20neo-Nazi attitudes online, and in fact, some of them are truly perpetuated by the owner of X, who has expressed support for AfD in Germany, which I think you will agree with me is effectively a neo-Nazi uh organization.
▶ 1:24:38And I guess I would just ask you to you've addressed a lot of the rise in the global intifada, and I agree with you, but talk about the risk of the online support and proliferation of views. Well, I think certainly neo-Nazis are anti-Semites. Uh they certainly present a risk to everyday Americans.
▶ 1:25:01Um a lot of my focus has been on the current immediate threat that the in in in in for shorthand is Hamas supporting network that we've been looking at at Heritage presents to Americans of all persuasions, not just Jews. So, neo-Nazis, you know, will certainly be a threat uh for maybe endemic, but they're not as we estimate the immediate threat that a lot of these individuals I've identified in my testimony we see almost every day who are attacking Jewish and non-Jewish students and Americans across the country. Yeah, well, I mean, we can debate which is worse.
▶ 1:25:31Uh certainly the white supremacist theory affects Jews as well as non-Jews as as well. So, uh I see my my time is up, but I I am I appreciate all of you for being here, and I look forward to addressing this issue together. The gentleman's time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing today. Thank you all for coming to testify before the Homeland Security, Counterterrorism, and Intelligence Subcommittee.
▶ 1:26:00The threat picture Americans face is constantly changing, and with the development of AI and the use of the internet, any small group can have a relatively high impact on any given population. Dr. Aaron Zellan, I know you've written about online mobilization of foreign fighters, and to counter that, the US has taken some steps through blacklisting some terror groups from posting online.
▶ 1:26:24According to Adam Hadley, the executive director of Tech Against Terrorism, who gave an interview to Wired Magazine, big tech platforms have worked hard to create databases of known violent extremist content known as hashing databases, which are shared across platforms to quickly and automatically remove such content from the internet. Are any of the witnesses familiar with the industry term hashing sites? Yes, I am.
▶ 1:26:52Or groups to create a censorship database to prevent bad actors from spreading misinformation from terror groups. My question is this, how would you recommend the committee evaluate the balance between freedom of speech and the need to protect the public from terror groups using AI to conduct deep Um that's a good question. Thank you for raising it. Uh I would judge it in two ways. The first one is whether the deep fake poses an immediate threat.
▶ 1:27:22Um in some cases, deep fakes can be created um you know, designed to specifically to incite. Uh for example, we've seen um deadly riots overseas based on Quran desecration. Something like that would have a purpose of trying to incite. In cases like that, I think that legislative efforts are important.
▶ 1:27:42There are other areas that were referenced before, such as deep fake pornography and the like, where I think again, there is a strong impetus for the legislature to step in in order to stop harm for individuals. That's essentially where I would say the line is drawn with respect to deep fakes. I think there's other ways to deal with propaganda deep fakes because ultimately, there is a purpose for deep fakes, right? Deep fakes can be used for cinema and the like. There's a reason why people create them.
▶ 1:28:11They're not just pure harm, but harm to the individual, I think is the area where the legislature can come in and should be able to have a strong hand. Thank you. Dr. David Garstein Ross, extremist groups are becoming more tech-savvy. Former Google Chief Executive Officer Eric Schmidt highlighted his worry during a February 13th, 2025 hearing uh with the uh BBC. He said there is extreme risk posed by AI development that could harm innocent people.
▶ 1:28:41In his opinion, countries like Russia, North Korea, and Iraq have ulterior motives and could misuse emerging technologies for their own My question is the correct balance uh for the tech companies and government to take into account the need for freedom of these companies to develop AI and the government's interest in protecting the public from deep fakes and AI-generated images that stir panic? It's another great question. A lot of these are are difficult to answer because of the fact that it's a balance.
▶ 1:29:11Um but I'd say that this is also understood in light of an AI competition between US companies and PRC led companies. And ultimately, most people looking at it, including Mr. Schmidt who you mentioned, uh believe that the country that's able to win the AI race is also going to be the global leader. So, I think there's a lot invested.
▶ 1:29:33I'd also say, as I mentioned in my opening statement, that right now, um the safeguards that are put in place, even by very responsible companies, are easy to to uh jailbreak and to get Thank you. Mr.
▶ 1:29:49Braddock, on March 24th, 2023, you were quoted in Business Insider saying, "If there is violence as a result of Trump's words, the former president will hide under a blanket of plausible plausible deniability saying that he never ordered anyone to become violent." Did you say that?
▶ 1:30:08My question is this, you were extremely critical of Republicans through what you call stochastic terrorism, inciting terrorism through volatile rhetoric, and what you deem as extremist rhetoric, but when Democrats incite violence, you seem to be a little bit silent. My colleague who just left, Dan Goldman, said, "Trump is dangerous to democracy and that he has to be eliminated." Did you speak out or criticize uh Mr. Goldman when he said that? We couldn't find anything. I was never ever heard that quote. Okay. How about How about this?
▶ 1:30:38Hold on. I can give examples of when I did speak out. Nor did you when Maxine Waters said, "Tone down the rhetoric" when she encountered protesters in Minnesota to get more confrontational encouraging Democrats to confront Trump officials if they see them in public. Did you say anything about that one? I did. You did what? Can you provide that for the the committee, please? During conferences and stuff, sure. Yeah, can I have one quick question? How about this one?
▶ 1:31:03Uh President Biden on October 23rd, 2024, who said, "We got to lock him up" or that Trump was a threat to democracy right before numerous assassination attempts. Did you say anything about that one? No, that wouldn't meet my threshold. We got We got to lock him up. That doesn't reach your threshold? No. Thank you. I yield back. Gentleman's time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from New Jersey, Ms. Poe.
▶ 1:31:33Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to our ranking member uh Magaziner uh for holding this uh very important hearing. You know, while terrorism is is is by no means a new problem, the internet gives extremists a broader reach for spreading dangerous ideas. It also provides for those seeking to commit violent attacks.
▶ 1:31:58I was proud to join my committee uh colleagues last month on a visit to New Orleans to see firsthand the scene of a devastating terrorist attack on the new on New Year uh New Year's Day. We can and must do more to prevent tragic attacks like this.
▶ 1:32:19Doing this we address how the internet radicalizes In my own state of New Jersey, authorities arrested a man in November of 2022 for using social media to share a manifesto containing threats to synagogues. In the manifesto, he claimed Jewish people were responsible for uh Muslim hatred.
▶ 1:32:47He drew inspiration from the white supremacist attack at a black uh church in Charleston and stated a desire to attack a gay club. Mr. Gardensteain-Ross, you have referred to this as a salad bar where an attacker lacks a clear ideology or sites numerous categories for extremist views to justify violence.
▶ 1:33:14How does mixing of extremist idea ideas impact the ability to accurately predict extremist behavior? Thank you. That's a great question. Uh to clarify my remarks, I refer to it as composite violent extremism rather than salad bar.
▶ 1:33:31Um and the reason why is I think that often times the internet and ideas and grievances that are in the ether uh have impact the individual much more than they pick and I think that it it has a tremendous effect on complicating the idea of when someone is radicalizing to pose a threat.
▶ 1:33:52If they're radicalizing with respect to a traditional ideology, often times there's there's a few different models, but to put it simply, you can understand when they fulfill the threat criterion that they seem to you have grievance, meet ideological justification, and then you can look to whether they're also taking preparation.
▶ 1:34:09When it's mixed and match and grievances and sentiments, I think it's much more complex, and that's kind of the Petri dish that we're all living through In addition to learning how to prevent online radi- radic- cal- radical- radicalization, sorry about that. I'm interested in how we can prevent people back from dangerous ideas.
▶ 1:34:40Again, to you, in your written testimony, you said about terrorism prevention, quote, "The existing toolkit remains valuable, but fine-tuning is necessary to account for the ideological aflu- fluidity, digital dynamics, and the radi- radic- radicalization unique to composite violent extremists." How exactly do we
▶ 1:35:10fine-tune? And are there opportunities for online uh counter-messaging? I think there are a lot of opportunities. Those which I see in the prevention sphere as being most important are when you look at the individual who poses a risk of carrying out uh an act of violence, looking at whether there are needs that aren't being met. One of the models, for example, is to look at whether there are mental health needs who an individual could be connected to.
▶ 1:35:38Sometimes that provides an opportunity for interventions other than efforts to uh take off- line or to use content moderation to eliminate bad ideas. Because for as long as human history has been around, there've been a profusion of bad ideas. Legislators don't want to stop bad ideas, but what we can try to stop is that connection to violence. Thank you. Very quickly, Dr. Braddock, could you please also provide us with your thoughts?
▶ 1:36:04I know I we have like 30 seconds, but I would love to hear your thoughts on that real quickly, please. Is there something you'd like me to focus on in 30 seconds? I mean, one of the things that we've been talking about over the course of this hearing is is the importance of content moderation and the fact that the way that people pull their ideologies together, the fact that they pull from such disparate ideologies makes it very very difficult.
▶ 1:36:28But I think that also speaks to the fact that one of the things we mentioned earlier was the need of human eyes on these things. We want to automate everything. We want to use AI to take care of everything, but I think in situations like this, which are so nuanced, I think we do need human eyes to make these sorts of judgments. I'm not in a place to say which eyes those should be, but humans can make better judgments about nuanced content like this better than AI can, at least presently. Thank you.
▶ 1:36:54Uh the word radicalization was difficult for me to say just moments ago, but thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. The gentlelady's time has expired. Um in lieu of a second round, what we will do is give each side 5 minutes, and I'll I'll hold to the 5 minutes. We won't go overboard. Um and so I I after this 5-minute period, and I will yield to my colleagues for their questions. I will let the ranking member also yield to uh his colleagues if they uh so choose.
▶ 1:37:22So, at this point, we'll yield uh 5 minutes to our side of the aisle, and I'll I'll start with Mr. Zellner. you you mentioned a couple of um things on platforms, and I'm kind of interested uh you know, the how do you how do you go about on platforms like TikTok, on platforms like Facebook, um what does that training look like uh
▶ 1:37:52to to recognize? We've talked about the human in the loop here. Um and may- maybe go into a little bit of depth if, you know, you could wave that magic wand. What does that look like? I haven't worked at these companies, so I'm not quite sure how they specifically train people, but I would imagine that they have different uh you know, lessons related to understanding specific ideologies, looking at the propaganda, and bringing in outsiders so that they understand the context, and then build up from there.
▶ 1:38:21Obviously, there'll be more senior versus junior people on these issues. Um and then besides that, when we're talking outside of the human element, there's of course the digital footprint, which uh you know, is the hashing methodology, um but that sometimes has false positives. Thank you. Yield to the gentleman from Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Zellner, uh it might have been you or Mr. Flesh talking about the language barriers on the on the social media platforms and how we are substantially behind.
▶ 1:38:51Is that a fair statement to say I say that correctly? That's remarkable considering the our ability to to aggregate data in how do we fix this problem? And And by the way, who which one of the emoji thing? I had not heard that yet. horrible to hear that, but okay, go ahead, sir. I'm sorry. I mean, part of it is just making sure that you're hiring people with these language skills that also know English, too, so they can work within the context of an American company.
▶ 1:39:22Um part of the issue, too, though, when you get in that context is that usually you might be uh working with people that live in authoritarian regimes, so they might insert people also and therefore degrade the possibility that certain things are done in a correct manner. So, it gets more complicated once you get sort of out of that western mold of things in some ways, even if it's something that's important when we're talking about jihadis and the fact that they've proliferated in different areas in the last five or six years.
▶ 1:39:50In order to combat that, I mean, AI, machine we got to be somewhere close. It's it's definitely something that should be used and tried, um but there are, of course, certain nuances that are used in different languages, as well, that we might not even know about cuz we're not native speakers, so that's why you also need the human element, too. Okay, thank you. Yield to the gentleman from Arizona. Thank you. I'm going to come back to you, Mr. Braddock.
▶ 1:40:15Um do you believe that President Trump is a stochastic I believe he has been in the past. Yeah. Why is that? Typically stochastic terrorism, if you want to offer a definition, is where an individual utters things that can be perceived by a reasonable person as a promotion of violence, if not outright incitement. So, you think that things that he's said that I think you think that President Trump is trying to incite violence? Um whether he wants to or not is immaterial.
▶ 1:40:42Stochastic terrorists typically don't need to be able to incite it on purpose or not. It's their words that are important. And if I could, on the record, I could say stochastic terrorism and stochastic terrorist is a terrible term. I've actually been trying to get rid of that term as something that describes this phenomena. I call it malicious provocation because it has to relate to But you've used that word a lot, haven't you? Yeah, it's what we use in the Do you think that uh our colleague, Congressman Goldman, with the statement I just read you, do you think he's one as well?
▶ 1:41:12If I could see the context in which he said it. read I already read it to you. You read the statement, but I need the context, as well. Statements aren't Trump is so dangerous to democracy that he has to be eliminated. I'll read it for you again. Do you think that that's stochastic terrorism? If you can tell me the context of when he said it. I I can't tell you the context of what you said it, but that those are his Context is important when people say things. Yeah, so is partisanship, and I think that that's what we're seeing here today. Is that Yeah, ex- exactly. And I'm going to I'm going to tell you this right now.
▶ 1:41:41This is why Americans have such a hard time with censorship coming from guys like you. They call balls and strikes only on one side of the aisle, and then they won't do it on the other Would you like me to read one for the other side of the aisle? Yeah, yeah, go go for it. Be happy to. Yeah, okay, tell me who on the other side of the aisle Waters, which I have said in public statements to threat analysts that counts as stochastic terrorism because the context in which she said it was already heightened aggression, so there's a bigger chance that people are going to engage in violence.
▶ 1:42:08So, you don't think that anybody would take Dan Goldman's statement that Trump is so dangerous to democracy that he has to be eliminated, and you don't think that that has the potential to incite violence? Are you serious? I don't make judgments based on statements I haven't seen in the context or in which they're said. Do you want another one from the left to make you feel better? Yeah, please. Yeah, when Chuck Schumer was on the steps of the the I think it was Supreme Court near Roe v.
▶ 1:42:34Wade and a very energetic crowd and said, "These justices will reap a whirlwind." Does that make you feel better? Gentleman's time is expired. Well, it make me feel better if if you could actually listen to the statement from Goldman and say the same thing, but Gentleman's time is expired. Clearly you can't. All right. I yield now recognizes Mr. Magaziner. All right, thank you. And I I thank the chairman again um for a I think productive, enlightening, and mostly bipartisan hearing today. Um I I I think this was actually a very productive back and forth for the most part, so I thank you guys, all of you, for for your insights.
▶ 1:43:03Um I probably won't use my full 5 minutes, but there were just two things I wanted to uh follow up on real quick. Um we had, I think, a very good conversation about where the line should be in terms of free speech, you know, inciting violence versus not, and about methods of content moderation that we should encourage and potentially Uh one thing that we haven't delved into is um is the algorithms. And so, I wonder if any of you have any insight into that.
▶ 1:43:32Um should there be certain standards or best practices that the social media companies should adhere to in terms of algorithms that kind of lead people deeper down the rabbit hole to more and more extreme content, or is it not really a matter of policing the algorithms, it's more just about the underlying content? And I I wait ask any of you to weigh in.
▶ 1:43:55I would uh counsel the uh legislature against trying to moderate or or legislate for algorithms. There's a lot of problems with algorithms. There've also been attempts to um legislative algorithms before. Specifically, both Florida and Texas implemented bills known as anti-censorship bills, which among other things would limit the amount of times that social media companies can change their algorithms, number one, and number two, demand algorithmic transparency.
▶ 1:44:26The reason why I personally was against those bills is, number one, algorithms change constantly, and I think it's anti-free enterprise to try to uh limit the number of times they can change algorithms. And number two, if they reveal what's going on with algorithms and what they're flagging, then every single bad actor knows exactly what those companies are looking for. Uh so, I think to me, right now, I think the safest thing is to stay away from their algorithms. Okay. Now, that makes sense. That's a helpful answer.
▶ 1:44:55And um last issue, and this is more of a comment than anything else. Um the importance of open-source data collection, I think, is important. You know, we when we talk about signals intelligence and trying to find bad actors who commit acts of violence before they can uh commit those acts, you know, we we often are thinking about covert methods, but I as I understand it, with the attacker in New Orleans and many others, I mean, often times people are posting stuff openly, and in an environment where the social
▶ 1:45:25media companies are not effectively regulated, and some aren't removing that content or not doing it in a timely way, it's important to have, you know, Department of Homeland Security INA office, which does open-source collection, uh National Counterterrorism Center has an open-source uh desk, and so, I just want to make sure that we're emphasizing the importance of those collection efforts, as well, um uh when we're making budgetary decisions and the like, because we need to be putting more resources toward that, I think, not less.
▶ 1:45:54And uh you know, with the time I have remaining, I just ask any of you, is there a something that you were dying to say that we didn't get to? If if you want to take a final minute here, I see Dr. Zellner. Go go I'll just add to your comment that I think uh you know, uh working together amongst government and agencies is important, but I also think government to tech companies is important, and between tech companies, cuz I think all of us in this room know that we all use more than just one te- uh social media application or other, you know, technology on our phones or what have
▶ 1:46:24you all of the time. So, it's, you know, just as we do, so do the terrorists in some ways. These are commerc- commercial usages, so there needs to even if you when we're talking about the digital footprint type of issue, um that's one aspect of it, but there also needs to be a greater coordination. And one of the issues where we get to is when it's companies outside of sort of the American jurisdiction or there uh comp- uh companies that are in adversarial countries like TikTok with China or deep seeking things along those lines.
▶ 1:46:54That makes it that much more complicated, um and that's why, you know, talking about bans and things like that is something that I think should continue to be on the table. And then, one more point related to the algorithms, while I agree with uh David that it's it's definitely complicated from a legal perspective, we should also recognize that if you follow somebody on whichever platform, they'll start feeding you recommendations, and if you start following people that are terrorists or extremists, they'll feed you people within that broader network,
▶ 1:47:24um or if you're watching videos along those lines. So, that's one aspect of the algorithm that maybe should be looked at in greater detail. All right. I thank you all again for a good, productive conversation, and I'll uh yield back. It will the gentleman yield for 10 We had a conversation up here, just so you're aware that I think what Energy and Commerce is doing to look at Section 230 uh is very important. Um and that's really a lot of what we talked about here, and I hope that that committee will take uh this issue very seriously.
▶ 1:47:55Uh I thank the the witnesses for your testimony today, for uh your study in in this field, for the conversation that we've had. The members of the subcommittee may have additional for the witnesses, and we would ask that you respond to these in writing, pursuant to Committee Rule 7D. The hearing record will be open for 10 days, and without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.