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▶ 0:08:16the committee on Homeland Security will come to order without objection the chair May declare the committee in recess at any point the purpose of today's hearing is to examine the threats posed by the Chinese Communist part party to US National Security I now recognize myself for an opening statement today's hearing focuses on the generational threat that the Chinese Communist Party poses to our homeland the first step is to recognize the nature
▶ 0:08:47of our adversary for decades China has steadily pursued a long-term Grand strategy to replace the United States as the leading Global power we cannot afford wishful thinking or willful ignorance about the nature of the Chinese regime and his ongoing efforts to undermine the United States we also need proactive measures to counter the ccp's actions that jeopardize our homeland security
▶ 0:09:17especially given that most of the threats they pose are unfolding now below the threshold of traditional conflict one of our distinguished Witnesses Dr Michael pill Berry has persuasively argued that China is engaged in a hundred-year marathon a grand strategy to surpass and overtake the United States on the world stage and reorder the world according to the ccp's priorities and their values this long-term
▶ 0:09:48strategy is comprehensive it is not limited to military capabilities it includes the full range of economic diplomatic technological and political competition critically China is willing to play the long game and build up its power over the course of decades the ccp's ultimate aim is not to enjoy a peaceful balance of power with the west but to establish its position as the dominant
▶ 0:10:18world power a world oriented around the vision and values of the CCP would look very different from the unparallel freedom and prosperity produced by the Pax Americana in contrast the Chinese vision would mean a global ordinate Global Order subordinate to desires and the interest of a totalitarian Communist Regime in recent years the People's Republic of China has engaged in sustained campaigns
▶ 0:10:49of transnational repression intellectual property theft and Espionage here in the United States over the past four years there have been more than 60 Espionage cases across 20 States linked to the CCP operations to gather intelligence on sensitive military information and the theft of technology and Trade Secrets just this past December a Chinese citizen was arrested for flying
▶ 0:11:19a drone over Vandenberg space force base California he was apprehended at the airport trying to board a flight back to additionally agents of Beijing have targeted dissidents and regime critics within the United States through covert Chinese police stations in New York City and other major US cities s SPN including economic and Technology theft are key to the CCP strategy
▶ 0:11:50to undermine the United States while fueling its own technological advancement today the United States remains unmatched as a hub for technological innovation but the PRC routinely and systematically steals technology and research from American companies and universities for the benefit of the Chinese State industrial complex many Chinese corporations are state owned Enterprises and China's national security laws give the regime
▶ 0:12:20the power to force companies to hand over any information or data moreover the CCP has implemented National strategy of military civil Fusion to position the people's Liberation Army as the dominant military power by 2049 part of this strategy is mass intellectual property theft of sensitive information from both US military and civilian targets the CCP
▶ 0:12:50exploits American research and development to the tune of several hundred billion dollars every single year and this the directly affects all Americans as one of our Witnesses today will state these losses cost the average American family of four between four and $6,000 yearly this is happening through traditional Espionage tactics and Target cyber attacks affecting Industries engaged in
▶ 0:13:21Innovative developments ranging from military technology and artificial intelligence to semiconductors and and medical research here in the 119th Congress this committee has the opportunity to advance significant legislation to counter the ccp's effort to undermine our national security working together we can find practical policy solutions to shift the playing field in our favor whether we are countering acts of transnational
▶ 0:13:52repression strengthening our cyber security with legislation like the Cyber pivot act or Shoring up our Economic Security and supply chain resilience we can make major Headway on meeting the challenges posed by the PRC the freedoms and prosperity of the American people in the decades to come depend on our courage on our foresight and our ability to take decisive action now I look forward
▶ 0:14:22to a serious discussion on the critical threats posed by the CCP to the United States Homeland as we kick off this committee's effort to protect the Homeland against foreign actors I now at this time recognize the ranking member of the gentleman from Mississippi Mr Thompson for his opening statement uh thank you very much Mr chairman and before I begin my statement let me say
▶ 0:14:52uh with a heavy heart that we've been informed that a member of uh this uh Mr Sylvester Turner former mayor of Houston passed early this morning and at some point uh we will do a more formal recognition of his tenue on the committee uh by by the committee so we wanted to make that part of uh just uh good
▶ 0:15:23morning and Welcome to our panel of witnesses today the committee is examining the threats po osed by the Chinese Communist party to our national security the threats are very real the CCP is looking for every opportunity to undermine our security and get the upper hand on the global uh United States the problem is Congressional Republicans tough talk on China is at odds with the Trump administration's
▶ 0:15:53actions which are hurting America's ability to counter threats from the CCP for example China is carrying out cyber attacks for Espionage to the preposition for attacks against our critical infrastructure in the event of future conflicts according to the intelligence communities 2024 worldwide threat assessment China Remains the most active and persistent cyber threat to the United States
▶ 0:16:23government private sector and critical infrastructure networks unbelievably president Trump has fired key cyber security Personnel at the Department of Homeland Security and dismissed members of the Cyber safety review board investigating recent Chinese attacks we are hearing that up to 50% of the remaining Workforce of the cyber security and infrastructure Security Agency might be targeted in the days
▶ 0:16:53ahead let's be clear the Trump Administration gutting us cyber offenses makes it harder to protect Americans against Chinese cyber attacks and makes us less safe what are congressional Republicans doing to preserve the workforce that protects our cyber networks nothing meanwhile in its rush to fire government employees the Trump Administration sent out an unclassified
▶ 0:17:24email with the names of CIA analysts and operatives working to counter China One former CIA officer referred to the email as a quote Counter Intelligence nightmare what are congressional Republicans doing to stop the White House chaos and protect intelligence information from Chinese hackers nothing China is also on a mission to steal our economic secrets and
▶ 0:17:54personal data to gain a competitive Advantage Fortune L for China Elon Musk is lending a hand musk and his doge lackes have made key Federal Data Systems more vulnerable and put millions of Americans data at risk by snooping insensitive cyber networks without adequate security protections what are congressional Republicans doing to protect Americans personal data from musk
▶ 0:18:25Doge and possible exportation by nothing additionally China is using its belt and R initiative to leverage Investments to expand its influence in the developing World rather than protecting America's interest globally the Trump musk Administration SL US foreign investment and alienated allies and partners undermining our ability to compete with China for influence
▶ 0:18:55on the global stage this morning the Supreme Court rejected the Trump mus Administration efforts to end the US foreign investment clearing the way for the state department and usid to restart nearly $2 billion do in payments but what our Congressional Republicans doing to protect American interests around the world nothing the Trump Administration is weakening America against China while Elon
▶ 0:19:25Musk sits inside the White House asserting seemingly Limitless Limitless influence over the executive branch of government that's no coincidence musk has troublingly closed ties with China though the full extent of his entanglements are unknown because he refuses to file a public Financial disclosure and has failed to disclos meetings with Chinese officials
▶ 0:19:55still it's clear must businesses rely heavily on China for their success and he has over a billion dollars in loans from state-owned Chinese Banks musk has taken public stances to benefit of China and has even suggested giving some control over Taiwan to China his own former Doge co-chair raised concerns about musk ties to China saying I have
▶ 0:20:26no reason to think Elon won't jump like a circus monkey when Chinese chaing calls in the out of need that doesn't sound like America First it sounds like China first what our Congressional Republicans doing to sound the alarm about someone beholding to China running our government nothing Democrats agree that the CCP poses a
▶ 0:20:56threat to US security and want to keep Americans safe if Republicans want to counter China's influence and protect us interests they should start by holding their own Administration accountable talking tough on China but bending the knee to Trump and musk plays right into the ccp's hands let's hope the other side remembers their oath is to the Constitution and not to the man in the white house or his unelected billionaire
▶ 0:21:27co-president Mr chair y back uh before we move forward in light of the announcement uh by ranking member Thompson regarding uh the passing of Sylvester Turner I would like us to please take a moment of silence um to uh remember uh him and to recognize his
▶ 0:22:19you other members of the committee are recognized and reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record uh I want to thank our Witnesses uh for being here uh this morning I had the opportunity to visit with each of you uh very briefly uh before the commencement of this hearing so uh thank you for your dedication your commitment I know that you are all subject matter experts in this field uh something that is extremely important uh to us
▶ 0:22:50uh to this committee uh to this Congress uh and to this Administration um I want to again thank you for being here uh I would ask if you would at this time please raise your right hand as I issue the oath do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the committee on homeland security of the United States House of Representatives will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
▶ 0:23:20so help you guide thank you let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative and thank you for taking such an oath I would now like to formally introduce our Witnesses first Dr Michael Pillsbury he is a renowned China scholar and author of The 100 years Marathon China's secret strategy to replace America as the superpower he has served in many distinguished
▶ 0:23:50governmental roles including as an assistant under secretary of defense for policy planning Special Assistant he's served as a Special Assistant for Asian Affairs in the office of the Secretary of Defense he is a member of member of the Council on Foreign Relations and The International Institute for strategic studies and a senior fellow for China strategies at the Heritage Foundation Dr Pillsbury earned his PhD from Columbia
▶ 0:24:22University The Honorable William Eva is a former director of the national counter intelligence and security Center in which he led the United States government's Counter Intelligence activities as director he oversaw key National programs dedicated to countering intelligence collection efforts by Foreign adversaries prior to serving as director of the ncsc he serves as the the chief of the cia's counter Espionage
▶ 0:24:52group he has over 31 years of service in the federal government including 24 years as a special agent with the Bureau of Investigations including Service as assistant special agent in charge of the FBI's Washington field office next is Mr Craig Craig Singleton Craig is a senior director of the China program at the foundation for defense of democracies he is a leading expert on us China relations
▶ 0:25:22a an expert on China's technological threat and China's military civil Fusion strategy he previously served as a US Diplomat focusing on National Security issues dealing with China North Korea and the finally Dr Rush Doshi is the CV star senior fellow for Asian studies and director of the China strategies initiative at the Council on Foreign Relations Dr Joi was Deputy
▶ 0:25:53senior director for China and Taiwan on the National Security Council from 2021 to 2024 he is also an assistant professor in the security studies program at georgetown's Walsh School of Foreign Service I want to thank all of our Witnesses for being here today I would now like to recognize each of you for five minutes to summarize your remarks in the form of an opening statement I will
▶ 0:26:23begin with Dr Pillsbury thank you Mr acting chairman and ranking Thompson uh Mark Mark green your chairman advise me I should try to say something new and fresh and assume that the members of the homeland security committee are all highly informed about China already and don't need a presentation from me that says you know the capital city is Beijing and the population is 1.4 billion
▶ 0:26:54so I'll try to meet his challenge uh he said why don't you go back to your book 10 years ago where you recommended 12 steps in the last chapter and then tell us which of the 12 remain to be implemented it's kind of hard because only the first one was implemented the first one was to recognize our long-term competition with China 10 years ago that was kind of strange now pretty much everybody talks as though it's common
▶ 0:27:25knowledge um so that's one out of 12 the other 11 I'm not going to mention all but I'm going to mention three that are I think relevant to this Homeland Security committee because I used to be a senate staffer my first job in 1978 in the Senate staff was the Senate budget committee and I learned a lesson fairly quickly the jurisdiction of committees is something Senators fight over so if we could have something unique that Homeland Security does
▶ 0:27:55itself with your Senate partner Rand Paul as well there's some there's some areas that need to be looked at that could be done just by your committee now don't get angry at me but the one of the first things is to consider this committee going to Beijing not just Foreign Affairs and foreign relations and armed services travel but Homeland Security with well organized agenda agreed to in advance by the Chinese could answer questions you have and also would
▶ 0:28:25be a kind of healthy pressure on how the Chinese see America's requests the second idea I have is that Homeland Security's jurisdiction includes a lot of agencies and one of my most important recommendations 10 years ago is we try to do a survey even annual if necessary of exactly what each government Department uh or agency is doing to assist China
▶ 0:28:56and the head of om tried to do this uh he's back now again as the head of om he put out a very specific kind of document to all government agencies Define what you're doing to help China One Way or Another it was defined very very broadly how much money is involved and yes or no do you have authority from Congress to do this and the study ran into enormous difficulties agencies did not want to admit that they each had a program with China and
▶ 0:29:26none of them had Congressional author authorization to do what they were doing one of these was helping the labor union disputes Labor Department was sending uh mediators another one was the Chinese Banks were in trouble so a team from the controller of the currency went out to show Chinese Banks state-owned Banks how better to measure uh loans all of these programs or maybe as many as 20 uh were
▶ 0:29:56designed originally when our relationship with China was one of sort of the older brother helping China get into the world all that's changed but these programs continue on many of them are under the jurisdiction of this committee um the other idea because of limits of time let me just kind of dwell on it for 30 seconds the other idea was if we're in a longterm competition with China how do we know where we're going how
▶ 0:30:26do we know the most effective maj measures that need to adopted and you all know the madh hatter and Alice in Wonderland when any road if you don't know where you're going any road will take you there that's kind of the situation we're in now with the picture of the long-term competition how is it going to end I can tell you what the Chinese say a very common scenario talking with Chinese are reading their materials is they think America is looking for another gorbachov
▶ 0:30:57and wants to collapse of the Chinese Party Russian style very very similar concerns xiin ping has spoken on this himself many times there's never going to be a China gorbachov so they're very defensive about it they're prepared for it rather strangely we're not doing this as far as I know the United States government is not trying to put a gorbage off in China and overthrow the CCP anything from it there are several other scenarios
▶ 0:31:28each scenario each outcome uh suggests a different set of measures we should do but to measure how we're doing in the competition I proposed has not been done there's no annual report on how are we doing Visa V let's say 20 or 30 indicators uh with China so we're working in the dark some professors have worked on this there's several good books about it but there's no White House annual report on how we're doing in the competition with China uh as say for 20 or
▶ 0:31:5830 indicators that's a vacuum that this committee could help to fill thank you very much thank you Dr pillsberry I now recognize Mr Evan Anna for five minutes to summarize his opening statement acting chairman guest ranking member Thompson members of the committee it's an honor to be here with today with my esteemed guests September 11th 2001 our nation was attacked by committed terrorists as a nation we are not prepared for this attack
▶ 0:32:28or how it would impact every aspect of American Liv for decades to come as a special agent in the FBI in that day I was part of the investigation of Flight 93 from that day and throughout my entire law enforcement intelligence career I often asked myself how do we not see this coming maybe we could have prevented it we saw the lights blinking as a nation we worked tirelessly for 25 years to prevent that from happening again we were committed today our nation faces is an array of sophisticated
▶ 0:32:59diverse threats by Terror organizations cyber criminals and nation state threat actors I profer to you the greatest threat to our nation eminates from the Communist Party of China this threat is existential it is complex pernicious and strategic with the US private sector and Academia the main Battlefield xan ping drives a comprehensive and whole of country approach to the ccp's efforts to invest leverage infiltrate
▶ 0:33:29paralyze influence and steal from every aspect in every corner of America as this committee is aware the economic loss of theft of intellectual property and Trade Secrets just from the Communist Party of China is estimated between 300 billion and $600 billion per year to make that more relevant to everyone in this room as the acting chairman mentioned it's about $4,000 to $6,000 per year per American family of four after taxes additionally
▶ 0:34:00he's estimated that 80% of all Americans have had all of their personal data stolen by the Communist Party of China in the past decade the other 20% just most of it and data has become the new gold in the world the ccp's priorities to collect it are Second To None like we've ever seen and as we all know data is the Bedrock fundamental purpose for all artificial intelligence creation layering on to our economic cing is the unprecedented volt
▶ 0:34:30insult typhoon hacks which continue to persist in our critical infrastructure and telecommunication sectors respectively the ccp's recent actions also include sophisticated surveillance balloons technical surveillance stations in Cuba Maritime Port control strategic lamp purchases near military bases Fano Tik Tock malign foreign influence at the local level Etc altogether the collage begins to paint a ble picture far beyond blinking red our
▶ 0:35:00current domestic vulnerability is unacceptable the blinking lights are clear I believe we must approach this exential threat with the same sense of urgency leadership spending and strategy as we have done for the past two decades in defeating and preventing terrorism I would ask this committee is it not a terrorism when our electrical Grid or natural gas pipeline is disabled or damaged via volt typhoon malware result that will result in millions of households
▶ 0:35:30hospitals buildings being without heat electricity what about when our telecommunications infrastructure to include Verizon 18t T-Mobile are all being disabled on the same day due through an organized Cyber attack precipitated by salt typhoon and if our financial services sector was impacted and had to go offline just for a few hours it would cause immeasurable harm as well as significant domestic and international chaos societal p panic and disruption we have not seen since 9/11
▶ 0:36:01are these not terrorism type events and if these events incidentally occur on the same day as the CCP makes their inevitable move on Taiwan are we even ready as a nation to handle the paralysis and Chaos the CCP will cause from every aspect of our American life from Commerce health safety and the way we live every day the CCP has strategically planned and implemented the ability to do just this all at once and all across our homeland from our ports to our electrical grid
▶ 0:36:31additionally every aspect of these actions has a planned impact on societal chaos and panic is an integral part of the ccp's plan and strategy hence terrorism and Terror must be redefined beyond our framework where we historically look at kinetic actions that harm or killed their loved ones the inability or unwillingness to look behind this curtain and visualize this clear realistic scenario is no longer an option for anyone in fact the proverbial curtain no longer exists
▶ 0:37:01our nation needs strategic leadership now more than ever time is of the essence additionally it this will take a whole country approach this approach starts here with the US Congress we all see the blinking lights clearly I offer a nationwide call action the committing to reduce the brightness reduce the Cadence of these very clear and blinking lights thank thank you for the opportunity to be here and I look forward to your questions uh thank you Mr
▶ 0:37:31evania I now recognize Mr Singleton for five minutes to summarize his opening statement acting chairman guest ranking member Thompson and distinguished members of this committee thank you for inviting me to testify today I'm pleased to offer policy insights from the foundation for defense of democracies a nonpartisan Research Institute where I serve as a senior fellow Chinese Communist Party chairman XI jingping has declared technological innovation the quote main Battlefield in China's quest for Global preeminence
▶ 0:38:01for she Chinese style modernization is not merely an economic goal it's a historic mandate with grave implications for US National Security in seeking to dominate what he calls China's new productive forces breakthroughs in batteries biotech liar drones Robotics and other cuttingedge Technologies she seeks to cement Chinese control over the drivers of the next Industrial Revolution in doing so she intends to transform China into a Global
▶ 0:38:31superpower yet she's strategy is predicated on a glaring vulnerability it depends in part on sustained access to US capital markets and advanced technology as well as near unfettered reach into American data and critical systems on this front US policy makers must act decisively and without delay she's broader technological Ambitions underpin China's military civil Fusion strategy stry a doctrine that breaks down barriers between the people's Liberation Army
▶ 0:39:02and China's civilian institutions including Chinese universities and ostensively private companies this Fusion accelerates the transfer of scientific Innovations directly into China's defense and intelligence sectors ensuring that Chinese military capabilities evolve in lock step with civilian progress here at home Beijing strategy unfolds in three interlocking phases First Chinese actors relentlessly penetrate us networks and critical infrastructure harvesting vast troves
▶ 0:39:32of sensitive data in the process recently exposed Chinese state sponsored hacking campaigns salt Vault and flax typhoon reveal how Beijing exploits software vulnerabilities implants malicious code and maintains persistent back doors more than a year after these breaches became public Chinese hackers still enjoy near persistent access to us telecommunications networks with Washington yet to impose any meaning F costs but hacking and data theft are just the opening Gambit beijing's
▶ 0:40:02secondary goal is to systematically preposition itself within our networks to degrade or disrupt them at critical junctures both in peace and in Conflict by embedding compromised Chinese uh compromised cranes in US ports Chinese made liar devices in traffic control or drones that seamlessly integrate with civilian and military operations Beijing gains a silent veto over our crisis whether through biotech Innovations or batteries powering our grid each dependency transforms
▶ 0:40:33Market Reliance into a strategic liability in times of tension the mere suspicion that these systems might be sabotaged could erode confidence delay us responses and undermine our deterrent posture third China profits from this dual approach Chinese high-tech exports from Advanced sensors and biotech to drones and surveillance cameras generate billions in Revenue every year for Beijing this revenue is funneled back into military civil Fusion programs creating a self-reinforcing cycle of power what's
▶ 0:41:03more by converting Market access into geopolitical Leverage The CCP has weaponized Western dependence on ITS Technologies thereby undercutting us competitiveness in response to these provocations it's vital that policy makers act with both urgency and Clarity by levying meaningful penalties including robust outbound investment screening targeted export controls and stringent procurement banss on high-risk Chinese Technologies Washington can deny she The Leverage he seeks and compel China to reassess its aggressive posture
▶ 0:41:33if we fail to act every hacked Network every compromised supply chain and every dependency engineered by Beijing only heightens our vulnerability to disruption sabotage or even systemic failure during a crisis in many respects today's predicament recalls the late stages of the Cold War when Washington's misguided Embrace of peaceful coexistence inadvertently prolonged the Soviet system's survival treating it as an immutable Juggernaut rather than one susceptible to sustained internal and external pressure by minimizing
▶ 0:42:03accountability for Chinese Espionage coercion and violations of international Norms we risk reinforcing beijing's conviction that its revist Ambitions need not be curbed we therefore must act and shift from a misguided policy rooted in reflexive deescalation to one of assertive reprisal from passive coexistence with China to purposeful competition on America's terms on behalf of the foundation for defensive democracies I thank you again for inviting me to testify today thank you
▶ 0:42:34Mr Singleton I now recognize Dr josi for five minutes to summarize his opening statement chairman guest ranking member Thompson distinguished members of the committee thank you very much for the opportunity to testify today's hearing I'll Focus my remarks on some of the challenges China poses to Homeland Security three questions first what are beijing's Ambitions second how does it threaten Homeland Security in the Cyber domain and and third how does it threaten Homeland Security with respect to transnational crime so first what are beijing's Ambitions the PRC
▶ 0:43:04has a grand strategy to displace us Le order seeks to quote catch up and surpass the US technologically to make the world dependent on China's Supply chains economically and to acquire the capability to defeat US forces militarily it's a capable rival too it's the leading industrial power with more than 30% of all Global manufacturing it's pursuing military bases around the world and in our backyard and it's the first US competitor to surpass 70% of US GDP so the second question how does the PRC threaten Homeland
▶ 0:43:34Security well PRC cyber actors have compromised sensitive us networks with multiple objectives first they want American personal data in the last decade the PRC has hacked the office of personnel management Equifax Marriott Anthem health insurance and multiple Airlines compromising hundreds of millions of Records second they want our IP the appear he has infiltrated American companies to steal with some estimated as well over a trillion dollars of us IP that even includes compromising Cloud providers that handle data for hundreds of companies and third they want access to our government systems
▶ 0:44:05in the last two years PRC actors compromised tens of thousands of emails from the state department Treasury Department cifas and even presidential candidates and fourth and most concerning as has been discussed already they want to prepare the operational environment for wartime in the Cyber domain that is no exaggeration as we know senior us officials and corporate leaders including Microsoft CEO Brad Smith have indicated that the RC is prepositioning for destructive cyber attacks on American power gas water Telecom and transportation infrastructure that would affect the lives of millions
▶ 0:44:35of Americans so what do we do in the Cyber domain in general we need to shrink our attack surface and go after their attack surface first Congress should prohibit technology companies that sell to the USG from operating in China for example the US relies on Microsoft software but to get Market access in China Microsoft provided source code for that software to Beijing the USG relies on Amazon and and Microsoft cloud but both Microsoft and Amazon turned over the operation of their cloud services in China to a Chinese company all this creates
▶ 0:45:05vectors vulnerability second Congress should codify the information communication technology and services supply chain executive order and fund the office that administers it this would let us prohibit certain PRC Goods that connect to networks from being in the US market the Biden Administration used this Trump era tool to keep out PRC connected vehicles but that's just the start recently DHS sis has found back doors in PRC medical devices so the time for Action is now third we need to go on the offense
▶ 0:45:36if the PRC has accesses on our infrastructure we need them on theirs as well and that will take resourcing and staff the PRC has Manpower for that we don't have enough manpower this committee has thought about a variety of steps that could help address that including the pivot act we also have to protect our federal Workforce from being cut at a time of peril fourth we need Common Sense regulation of the private which right now has little incentive to upgrade its cyber security third and final question how does the purec threaten Homeland Security through transnational crime well we all know that
▶ 0:46:06200 Americans die every day from fentanyl overdose we know the PRC is complient and we know that the PRC gives tax rebates and grants to Chinese chemical companies for manufacturing and exporting fentanyl precursors we know that it allows them to advertise their goods openly on PRC websites and we know that it's underground Banks help cartels launder fentanyl profits they take hard dollars from the cartels in America they provide them pesos in Mexico they sell those dollars to Chinese citizens who want their cash out of China and they take run mean b in compensation within China all that happens without any money
▶ 0:46:36transferring across the border well the PRC has not taken real steps to address it they tried in 2019 and again more significantly in 2023 but it wasn't enough they have the power to stop the precursor flow they have the power to stop the money laundering which occurs by the way on apps that they control and that they monitor for dissident activity and if they can find dissidents they can find money launderers but they won't do because they prefer to keep this issue alive so they have leverage with Washington so what do we do first we need to strengthen us sanctions authorities against entities involved in the fentanyl trade including
▶ 0:47:06PRC financial institutions second Congress can link progress on fentanyl to other PRC priorities in consultation with the administration third Congress can pass the corporate transparency act so we can track the beneficial owner of PRC shell companies and crack down on money laundering and finally we should pass the halt act halt fentanyl act to place fentanyl related substances as a class to schedule one of the control Substances Act I'll end with this the PC poses many challenges to our security but the issues that I focused on in my testimony today are the ones that affect the lives of tens of millions of Americans
▶ 0:47:36on a daily basis the China Challenge is often abstract I think it's important to link it to the lives of everyday Americans and with that I thank you for your time and look forward to your questions uh thank you members will now be recognized Boulder of seniority for their five minutes of questioning an additional round of questioning may be called after all members have been I now recognize myself for five minutes questioning Mr shlon I want to begin with you um in your written testimony that you
▶ 0:48:07submitted on page three of that testimony uh you have there a graph a chart uh that is titled Global Leadership of Select strategic Technologies uh and there are 10 technologies that you have listed there uh and uh in each of those you have identified a global leader um it is troubling to me uh that it appears that of those global leaders
▶ 0:48:37that the US is the leader in three of those categories uh and then China is the leader in the other seven so 70% of those Technologies um we see that China has outperform the United States uh in those areas and just want to see if you could talk about that very briefly sure no thank you for the for the question I mean it's no mistake that China leads in those sectors uh for more than a decade um and we are in now 2025
▶ 0:49:07and I think we all remember the China madeen 2025 plan they decided to put their money where their mouth is through intense industrial policy the theft of our own intellectual property and through aggressive non-market practices they were able to invest and scale in some of the um the largest technology companies in the world uh whether it's DJI drones or hessi lidar uh here in the United States or catl batteries these are Chinese Champions that report directly to the Chinese Communist
▶ 0:49:38party uh and I think ultimately what we have to start thinking about are some cyber quarantines for some of these high-risk Technologies here in the United States uh really treating these systems these devices uh and these companies as inherently risky we probably need to really restrict I think their use in critic infrastructure in particular and that's an area where I think Congress can uh make a tremendous impact let me ask you and now last other members uh you talk about restricting Chinese access to um
▶ 0:50:08information um Congress had passed a tiktock ban um several months back uh we see that currently uh there has been a stay on that as there are ongoing negotiations between the uh American and the the Chinese government over the ownership of Tik Tock uh particularly by bite a Chinese company um first Dr Sing m sing do you have any thoughts on uh does the Chinese ownership of Tik Tock does that pose a threat uh to
▶ 0:50:39uh Homeland Security uh and is that relevant for the hearing that we've have to are having here today absolutely I mean Chinese Communist Party chairman xiin ping referred to data as the 21st Century oil um and I can't think of any more uh pricious threat than the one posed by Tik Tok now Dr Doshi what what are your thoughts uh Mr chairman I would agree and I would go further and say that one of the challenges that Tik Tok poses is 180 million Americans can use it to get information I don't want the control of the algorithm that
▶ 0:51:09displays that information to be controlled by Beijing so I think this is a 100% real security threat uh Mr evania do you have an opinion on that I will concur with my colleagues and also say that from an intelligence perspective I think Tik Tok is one of the greatest intelligence operations ever in the history of the world and it's targeted directly at America with 180 million people having that device and their ability to control the algorithms Drive their intelligence to our uh dispora is uh harmful at the minimal and potentially devastating in the long run and then Dr
▶ 0:51:41Pillsbury well I agree but I think I would get back to my main message of the need to rank order priorities of what we're going to do about China breaking off the connection between the CCP and Tik Tock is important but there's an awful lot of things more important than that that even have some sense of urgency so it seems to me there's a political Warfare or information Warfare uh space that needs more attention this Tik Tok is part of it
▶ 0:52:12um there are other spaces however that come under Homeland Security I'm particularly worried about um unregistered foreign agents of China the the dep Department of Justice uh in put out a revision of the foreign agents registration act that will make it much more difficult for people to take money from China and then Lobby it really tightened up a number of uh loopholes in the foreign agents registration act Dr
▶ 0:52:42president let me interrupt you real quick just because my time is running short uh two quick questions one you mentioned that uh about assistance that the United States is providing China uh is there any reason that the United States should be providing China any support if I'm talking about both private sector up to two or three trillion according to Roger Robinson of American Investment in China and then government agencies that continue to carry out
▶ 0:53:12policy that was first set back in the 1970s that for example uh the FAA in Shanghai helps Chinese airliner manufacturing to be more competitive the faa's defense is well we're just making sure the airliners are safe but when you have something like 30 or 40 of these programs the overall impact seems to me is worth paying attention to that our government is still officially helping China in many many sectors you can get an idea of this by going to
▶ 0:53:42the US Embassy in Beijing website where they list 50 federal agencies that are present in the embassy in Beijing and then they hint about these are all helping China in various ways that's what I'm concerned about uh thank you so much uh this time my time has expired and I recognize the ranking member for five minutes of questioning uh thank you so much Mr chairman um based on the testimony I've heard from all the witnesses this morning
▶ 0:54:12uh there's no disagreement uh that uh China represents a clear and present danger to the National Security of the United States I thank you and and part of that uh risk associated with that danger is in the Cyber field and and I'm in my testimony I talked about the fact that a lot of the agencies
▶ 0:54:43that are tasked with responsibility of protecting uh the United States from China and and other Rogue Nations uh we we're cutting people uh and I want to want you to talk about whether or not we need to be improving the the the Personnel or technology to protect ourselves uh and I Dr do we can start with you
▶ 0:55:13and we can go down the line well thank you rank member Thompson for the question excuse me um I'll say the following uh I am concerned that on when it comes to Staffing and Manpower the PC is investing a lot more in offensive cyber activity and defensive cyber activity than we are and so I do worry you noted a number of cuts um Congressman in your testimony in your opening statement about cuts to DHS sisa cuts to the cyber security review board cuts to the teams working on salt typhoon perhaps 50% Cuts in some of the staff I
▶ 0:55:43worry that that those cuts come at a time when the Chinese are investing more that heightens our vulnerability so if we have to uh Ste I I would recommend stewarding those resources better for the sake of our national security thank you Dr Pillsbury you talked about that the Personnel in the embassies that China is uh investing in uh do you see the Personnel issue uh uh a challenge for us uh yes I do and one thing that
▶ 0:56:14really con concerns me I'm sorry if I advertised my age but during the Cold War uh beginning in 1947 the Congress and the president created new institutions to deal with the Soviet threat they created the NSC they created the CIA they created the US Air Force they created the Office of the Secretary of Defense all of this was driven by the perception of a Soviet threat when you look to China today despite all the talk there's no new
▶ 0:56:44institution or organization at all that's been created to deal with the China threat last night there was a little mention of it by President Trump when he mentioned ship building and he wants to create kind of a bureau of ship building to catch up with the Chinese who by the way one figure says they build 300 ships for every one that we build so again it's a Homeland Security kind of question does the Secretary of Homeland Security need a China unit reporting directly to her and then what would it look like
▶ 0:57:14how many people this is the kind of thing I'm most worried about we're just doing nothing in terms of creating new institutions to deal with China sure Mr vaner your background in intelligence what what does that say to you about personnel and and other things yeah I would I would concur with my colleague statements with respect the resources uh in the government but I would also uh profer that we need just as many resources if not more in the private sector and Academia to defend against what China is doing here
▶ 0:57:44when we have you know 20 the top 30 companies in our country breached in the last year by the Communist Party of China we have to allow and facilitate for those corporations from Wall Street to enter to telecoms be able to best protect them against intelligence apparatuses of the Communist Party of China we can no longer say you have to get better and more efficient in the private sector it's unrealistic to ask a company United States to compete and defend against the Bonafide intelligence operation around the world M Singleton
▶ 0:58:15I would agree I mean the old adage Personnel is policy is true uh I think there are just tremendous opportunity space for Congress to codify programs to build out that Tech Talent Workforce that we need need for tomorrow uh but I also agree that enhanced private and public sector uh cooperation is essential here the private sector is a tremendous Force multiplier particularly in the in the case of threat intelligence sharing thank you I you back Mr chair thank you at this
▶ 0:58:45time the chair recognizes the gentleman from the great state of Texas former chairman of this committee uh and current Vice chair Michael McCall uh thank you Mr chairman let me first uh begin Mr ranking member and saying my my condolences for the passing of Sylvester Turner I knew him well when he was mayor of Houston um and he just got elected to congress um and he's in my he and his family are in my thoughts and prayers
▶ 0:59:16um Dr Pillsbury good to see you again if yall haven't read his book 100-year Marathon I high highly recommend it is the authority I think on on China communist China um you know as you know I I prosecuted in 1997 uh the Johnny Chun case which led us to China Aerospace and the Chinese intelligence apparatus putting money in his Hong Kong bank account to influence a presidential election that being President
▶ 0:59:46Clinton and what what they wanted was to get into the WTO and to get uh dual use Technologies uh primarily air space and satellite Technologies uh and guess what they got it and they continue to get it today they steal it but we don't have to sell it to them uh chairing the Foreign Affairs committee I put export controls on on various things including Nvidia chips in 2024
▶ 1:00:17the problem was but in 2022 Nvidia had already sold these chips to China so that along with open AI all of a sudden deep seek pops up and we realize that China now has AI technology in this great power competition once again they steal it but then we sell it to them I believe that that has to stop U I introduced we saw this with the Hypersonic by the way built
▶ 1:00:47on the backbone of American Technology and many other U apparatus of the pla uh I introduced the enforce act to basically prohibit through export controls a sale of military grade AI technology I see no reason in the world how we could justify any company in the United States selling to China military-grade AI technology uh so Dr
▶ 1:01:17Pillsbury in the time I have can you respond to this and I'd like to get the bulk of time to you but to the other three your opinion in as to whether this is a good idea in terms of what we can legislate in the Congress to prevent the sale of this kind of Technology I've been focusing on what the homeland security committee could do itself very narrow picture but it's there's a lot of things uh I always appreciate mentioning my book and
▶ 1:01:48also you alluding to the famous parlor made case now this when we talk about intelligence collection on China one of the biggest hazards is the use of deception double agents against our own intelligence Community this committee has got a wonderful website you're pulling up each of the cases like this on your website so I just want to commend you I don't know of other committees that are in real time putting up examples like this um so and
▶ 1:02:18when you say parlor made that was my FBI agent JJ Smith sleeping with the Chinese spy that he cultiv as an asset for 10 years he was reporting back to Beijing intelligence collection is always vulnerable to deception and in the case of china I did a study of a lot of textbooks and books on Grand strategy how they see the world how they see their own history and the word deception kept coming up over and over and over again so our problem
▶ 1:02:48with uh foreign intelligence collection somebody can recruit a really wonderful Source or place a wonderful device device and get all kinds of intelligence get promoted get a bonus and then up all of a sudden it turns out it's it's a compromised Source in the case of parter made what I call for in the book is the FBI should have put out a notice that the last let's say 25 reports by parter made
▶ 1:03:18probably were under the control of Chinese intelligence and were false the G was trying to mislead us probably under orders from the president of China who she claimed to be friends with so I'm always glad to hear you raise the parter made case uh it's still with us I think in many ways and it's taught at quanico with the FBI you do you any any thoughts on the inforce ACT I know it's a different committee and I apologize for that but this is the Congress as a whole is is would that be a smart
▶ 1:03:49thing for to do yes I think so but before you came in I hope you'll forgive me I advocated that this committee visit China with a well organized agenda of questions if the Chinese accept and give you the right people to see you could go into the fenel issue you could go into things that are in your jurisdiction and hopefully the house Foreign Affairs chairman would not block Homeland Security visiting China I I don't think so but I've been sanctioned that may be a problem for me
▶ 1:04:19personally and for is it a good idea to to block the sale of AI military grade maybe just get a quick yes or no yes yes yes everyone agrees okay thank you all right gentlemen's time has expired the chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great state of California Mr carer thank you Mr chairman I want to thank the witnesses here today really enjoyed your discussion and brought up some very good points Mr Pillsbury Dr Pillsbury
▶ 1:04:49I love what you said about coming up with uh a measure of our success or what want to do when it comes to China because I think what my colleagues have said today you know Banning sales to China um other actions we do this yet they seem to figure out how to get these obstacles we put up all the time and uh I would almost say in football terms they're flooding the flooding The Zone
▶ 1:05:19and we're chasing our own tail most of the time not figuring it out but actually the fact that we're Chas ing them is a major statement in of itself so I've Lov to have this Homeland Security come up with a you know lack of a better term a a subcommittee just to address the China issue and not just a hearing here and um I can't help to think that a lot of these challenges we have are
▶ 1:05:50self-inflicted um Mr ivania you're former FBI agent I would call you a patriot for all you've done you probably could be making then after 911 you could have been making more money in the private sector than you were in the FBI um my concern is the recent firings FBI and CIA agents okay a lot of you said that the issue here is Personnel they have more people dedicated
▶ 1:06:20to the mission than we do yet we just fired a bunch of people which in sounds like they're look going after them right now China and Russia are trying to recruit them to get them to turnover information not only is the issue with those Personnel that we fired but what about the ivanans that are left in the agency what effect does that have on their
▶ 1:06:50morale okay you go into to work not on an hourly basis you go to work for the mission if you think you're going to be fired you're going to be a person that's going to be on the street tomorrow Mr Von how would that affect your morale and your motivation to be the best thank you Congressman for that question uh I'm a big proponent of understanding in preventing The Insider threat from being problematic and whether it's in the government in the corporate world from an intelligence perspective
▶ 1:07:21that the Communist Party of China and the Russian intelligence Services that's their job is to to come over here and go around the world and recruit uh disenfranchised uh employees whether from the government or the corporate world and identify them as being vulnerable and recruit them to facilitate either intelligence collection selling Secrets or selling it providing intellectual property trade secrets on the private sector side so for me this is a big issue because we have to be very conscious and effective as we are going to jettison federal
▶ 1:07:51employees who have access to critical information whether it be an itics or secrets and provide them an offramp to identify what those signs might look like if you are solicited or approached by a foreign intelligence service and or their proxy so I'm concerned about The Insider threat moving forward both in the government and the corporate sector and I would argue that even the people that you fire even if they're new to the job these are tomorrow's experts on the subject matter so they've gone through
▶ 1:08:22background checks you know academic performances they're some of their best of the best we have in the US you put them in then you fire them how does that Bode for us 5 10 years down the road when we're trying to still come up with the understanding as Mr filbur said of the mission they were supposed to accomplish well as we've seen in history the Communist Party of China and uh Russia will continue to try and
▶ 1:08:52place individuals into our app apparatus is the intelligence community and or the government and by doing that they need uh the information intelligence of how do we operate from our application system our background investigations our polygraph what does it look like in our training centers what's the best and most effective way to get people placed in these organizations so all those employees whether they're probationary or whether they their new recruits or their seasoned veterans all have an impact on the intelligence gathering of adversaries so Mr chairman I'm out of
▶ 1:09:22time but 15 seconds gentleman here came up with a great idea which is to come up with a more focused approach on this issue moving forward as opposed to a hearing on this on a random basis so to speak right thank you Mr chairman IDE time is up I expired chair recognizes Mr fluger thank you Mr chairman I I hope that um that in this committee we can agree that if there's ways to more efficiently do business
▶ 1:09:53that we can do that and look forward to having that conversation about uh the the the folks um are are not going to be a part of these agencies anymore um but getting to the the heart of this matter uh we we do have good people working inside the agencies and uh this has been an important issue um and without retiga the last four years let's let's start fresh here um and and I'll start with Mr
▶ 1:10:23Singleton talking about uh the confucious institutes and I've had a lot of uh a lot of legislation on this done a lot of work uh on confucious institutes very worried still that the Chinese Communist Party uses confucious institutes and other entities um to hijack our um intellectual property to steal Technologies to do a variety of things that uh are detrimental to us so um what I'd like to ask you is given the
▶ 1:10:53the strategy of the mil milary civil Fusion what steps do you think the US should be taking to prevent them from exploiting academic universities and using the CI uh kind of strategies sure no thank you sir and thank you for your leadership on this issue as well as the RSC that I know is taking a close uh a close look at this um you know confucious institutes used to number over about 120 across the United States there are less than about 14 today but they didn't actually go anywhere they just rebranded and renamed
▶ 1:11:24themselves uh and now they go by other names that are even harder to track what's worse is we see the proliferation of these Chinese controlled Outreach programs at the K through2 level across the United States again absolutely no coordination control or mandating requirement for any of these things beyond the concerns about Free Speech encroachment Beyond some of the ideological reservations we should have about what's being taught in these classrooms and to our students there are real research risks and primarily uh
▶ 1:11:54it's because when you open open some of these or establish some of these research Partnerships um and the academic exchanges they all come together so as we looked at the foundation for defensive democracies at all of the confucious Institute contracts they mandate research Partnerships in Cutting Edge emerging Fields typically between Chinese universities supporting China's military and our University system um beyond that we have to be pretty concerned I think about free speech on campus and there's ample evidence from the FBI and others showing that confucious institutes are used
▶ 1:12:24to suppress free speech and to organize um protests against speakers including the Dal Lama who come to us universities uh to speak about human rights in China thank you very much um Mr even I I'll go to you on a similar topic but on hybrid uh threats and not the hybrid approach that the CCP takes um to where they're blending you know lawfare and legal and illicit activities together so what are the concrete steps from your perspective that we can take to counter those
▶ 1:12:55question Congressman I think we have to first educate and advise and make everyone aware what that looks like whether or not you're in a University Research Institute or if you're a corporate world you don't they typically don't know what that hybrid threat looks like what does it look like whether it's a joint venture or it's an opportunity to go in and a hybrid inflect some cash into a uh a startup or company in the Silicon Valley or or Austin Texas there Comes A Tale To that and I think we have to be more effective and efficient as a government entity both the executive and Congress and
▶ 1:13:25educating and informing how does that look like how do you how does it manifest with you and your dollar to be able to educate first and then mitigate second like the confusious institutes universities out there are just now starting to learn a lot of these Partnerships with institutes in China are problematic and we're starting to see onesie twosies breaking those relationships so you mean they're taking advantage of our country the Chinese Party count the ways yeah absolutely we we should be alert to the fact
▶ 1:13:55that they're and and I do think we have to but I think the onus is on the government to advise and inform universities and research institutions what that looks like and be more effective Dr Pillsbury last 30 seconds to you what keeps you up at night about the Chinese Communist Party taking advantage of our country o just to stick on this topic the information collection from our universities is really quite dramatic I first learned about this from FBI reports almost 15 years ago they go into
▶ 1:14:26MIT or you name the high-tech University to the individual professors or department chairman and they sign a writer first refusal I give you $3 million you tell me when you find me the Chinese Communist party you tell me when you find something useful in your laboratory and you show me first wow these agreements were being signed by many universities they did not know each what it meant and they didn't even consult with each other BL the FBI should Federal funding be restricted
▶ 1:14:56from universities that are signing agreements absolutely thank you very much a y back Jan y's chair recognizes the representative from New Jersey Mr P Powell thank you Mr chairman uh and thank you to our ranking member Thompson for holding this important uh hearing and thank you to each and every one of our Witnesses for your testimony and providing us with a broad array of national security threat that we certainly
▶ 1:15:26understand we're facing from CCP I thank you for your candid uh testimony and information in my district uh in northern New Jersey I'm proud to represent a large and Vibrant Community of Ukrainian Americans one of the biggest in our country just last week I met with members of this community the pain in the voice in and the voices and faces of our community members
▶ 1:15:57were palatable they stressed that in addition to being the right thing to do us support of Ukraine benefits our national security with Ukraine serving as a barrier from Russia's further advancement into Europe so I am deeply Disturbed this week uh when I heard and saw that President Trump ended or once end critical military support to our allies
▶ 1:16:27in Ukraine from uh weapons to satellite data Ukraine rely on our support to continue their fight and we can't turn our backs on them now so I'd like to begin Mr Doshi if you would please when the United States re um uh retreated it uh Retreats from our partnership how does that affect our ability to maintain relationships with other
▶ 1:16:57countries and a unified approach to countering China how do we do that well thank you very much congressman and let me start by saying that China is watching everything that we're doing on Ukraine very closely indeed they would be very happy if in a fit of political dysfunction or capriciousness we decided to cut Aid to Ukraine because they think that means we won't Aid Taiwan should that question be called and so our our activity on this issue um has implications for how China looks at the Taiwan challenge
▶ 1:17:27the second part of this I'd like to stress congresswoman is also that the China Challenge requires working with others China is 35% of global manufacturing we're less than 15% they are 60% of global electric vehicle production 70% of electric battery production 50% of all robot installation you know in the world and so for us to be able to achieve scale to compete with them we have to do it together with others and I do worry that some of our activity on Ukraine or some of our activity Visa Canada makes it harder for us to Rally allies and partners to rise to the China Challenge yeah Dr
▶ 1:17:57Doshi though if you would also just talk about if you know if if you're no longer views the the United States as a reliable Ally how does that create opening for China to it um is there its influence in Ukraine and elsewhere anywhere else well thank you for that question Congressman I think that China has always been looking to split the US and Europe they understand and and everybody on this uh in this committee and every Everybody testifying today also knows that China wants to
▶ 1:18:27displace the us as the world's leading power but they can't do that without breaking the US of its allies and partners and the top of the list is Europe Japan and Korea and so the more we have a wedge with our European friends and we may have disagreements but the stronger that wedge is the more space there is for China the easier it is for them to access European technology but take export controls you know we need the Dutch the Germans and others to help us keep critical technology out of China that's going to get harder and harder if the Europeans go their own way yeah totally agree uh thank you so very much you
▶ 1:18:58know uh again Chinese presiden she and uh Russian President Putin reaffirmed last week that their partnership has quote No Limits so Dr Doshi and of uh to the rest of our members if we have the ability to respond how might that partnership play out in terms of China's involvement in the Russian Ukrainian war and how does that harm America's National Security Congressman this is a very important issue
▶ 1:19:28as in in all the talk of a deal on on Ukraine we have to consider China there is no successful Russian war effort in Ukraine without Chinese support for the Russian defense industrial base and Chinese transfer of lethal material to Russia and so they are the Arsenal of autocracy right now and the fact that they're reiterating their No Limits partnership at this moment is partially anxiety that we might pry them apart but also a doubling down on the Russian war machine so I have 15 seconds uh Mr Singleton did you wish to share your thoughts sure I would agree with what rush said
▶ 1:19:58uh it's time to impose costs on the Chinese Communist party for aiding the Ukrainian war effort um they've gotten away with far too much for the last four years and I think it's it's time to turn turn The Tide thank you thank you very much for that I yield back Mr chairman J yields back the chairman recognizes the gentleman from Oklahoma Mr Brien H thank you Mr chairman Mr Singleton you had something that you highlighted I thought it was extremely succinct in your introduction
▶ 1:20:28uh that the Chinese Communist party leader xig beinging uh talking about that the quote main Battlefield is this innovation of technology and then Mr DOI you talked about just you highlighted yet again that as the United States is at 15% of global manufacturing that China is at 35% you said another statistic minute ago so it was 30 so somewhere between 30 35% I I really want to um just move
▶ 1:21:00to the president has implemented this tariff and you all are talking about you've got some strong specifics Mr Singleton where you talked about breaking that down and even more targeted think sanctions Banning I want to give you some time uh to build upon what the president is doing we all look at things that you know whether it's a or whether it's a a coffee mug and you we're all shocked made in
▶ 1:21:30China and the president knowing that economic strength is our national security is trying to do a lot of things right now on the international front to to change this um in addition to what Mr Pillsbury talked about which I think is just Genius of of Russ vote at om hopefully picking up that Banner again and saying what are we doing to help them as if they have a two trillion gross domestic product which they were I guess 20 and 30 years ago and now they're clipping at 20 trillion gross domestic product what somebody said is
▶ 1:22:0170% relative to our 29% uh 29 trillion gross domestic product and they're the the highest GDP relative to the United States in the world but we've empowered them because of all these Goods that we're consuming so how can we I'll open this up to anybody how can we take what the president is seeing clearly tariffs and and there will be a cost but because of the danger when he's saying this is the battlefield he wants to play this game he
▶ 1:22:31wants to take our technology he wants to have the ability through Salt typhoon volt typhoon bring our electric grid down bring our water systems down military installation ownership of Farmland how can how can we build public sentiment to to to bolster our president for the American populist to say we may have to pay a price because this is a real real threat whoever wants to take that I'll start but welcome uh others as well I mean I think tariffs are really important tools of
▶ 1:23:01geopolitical Leverage if used correctly um in the case of china amidst its economic slowdown tariffs unlike sanctions they bite overnight they cut deep and right now China's economy is facing tremendous headwinds relying almost exclusively on overc capacity and ex its export it export model which makes it right for sort of sharp targeted vulnerability in terms of using tariffs I think we can use tariffs to actually change Chinese Behavior
▶ 1:23:32Beyond its non-market practices fenol is a great example and I think the president is employing tariffs uh in that way as a pressure tactic to achieve achieve changes in Chinese Behavior I think Bill mentioned it best we need a whole of country sort of approach to this and part of that is building out different pillars of economic statecraft sanctions outbound investment screening sectoral export control contr bans to prevent the flow of these Technologies into China's military and its defense sector and all of the sort of pillars of American
▶ 1:24:02economic power working together towards a desired endstate which I hope we would all believe is a change in Chinese Behavior can we do something to build upon more targeted um tariff percentages I mean there are ways to be targeted in the way we're doing reprisal tariffs that could I mean this is an this is a gross domestic product that is gained at a rapid Pace in the last 20 years ago no one saw China coming like this 20 years ago I see a lot of head nodding on on the panel Congressman uh two quick thoughts uh first the administration
▶ 1:24:32is rightly considering what are called component tariffs that would make it harder for China to kind of hide rules of you know behind rules of origin this would allow us to go after the fact that Chinese Chips might be in something bigger that we buy from another country allows us to carve them out of Supply chains the second Point Mr chair uh congressman is is actually a critical one the Trump Administration in the first term had something in executive order icts EX order it's a regulatory barrier it allows us to keep Goods out with a regulatory ban on them that tool should be expanded uh that executive order could be codified by Congress
▶ 1:25:03it was something the B Administration used and we could keep using it if I if I may I just want to amplify both those comments by saying a little bit different perspective about amplifying the message and the why matters and I think when we talk about tariffs and economic drivers I think we have to message the American people why this all matters because in our generation you know we look at it the Russians the Cold War they were bad we beat them in 1980 in the Olympics right we had the aat TOA in 1979 the Iranians culturally were
▶ 1:25:33bad we have not had that with the Chinese Communist party yet so culturally across the our country now proper you in Oklahoma our constituents don't see China in the same light as we saw Iran and Russia and I think we have to do a better job more effective and driving the issues as why this stuff matters thanks Mr chair Yi expired chair recognizing is Miss mver thank you so much Mr chairman and to my ranking member and thank you to our Witnesses for joining us today under the
▶ 1:26:03pretense of promoting efficiency Elon musk's Doge team has acquired unmatched control over critical government data bases and Technology systems these systems house sens these systems house sensitive information included private data on federal employees government contracts regulatory investigations and even the personal information of everyday citizens equally concerning are must close ties with China and his boundless access to and influence over US
▶ 1:26:33government agencies and systems these Dynamics raise serious questions about National Security data privacy and the Integrity of our federal operations I look forward to hearing hearing uh from the witnesses today as we work to ensure transparency accountability and the protection of American interests with that I have one question um for each witness the intelligence community's 2024 World worldwide threat assessment highlights
▶ 1:27:04China as the most active cyber threat how might the Trump administration's reduction in sis of personnel affect the nation's ability to to defend against these threats Mr DOI Dr DOI you can start sure thank you Congressman it's an important question and what I'll say is that uh you as I mentioned China invests heavily in Personnel for offense and defense that gives them significant Advantage they've got 1.4 billion people we have 350 million and uh labor does matter in this business
▶ 1:27:34um what I'd like to see is us increase our federal Workforce when it comes to cyber both offense and defense and right now I do worry that the cuts are coming at the wrong time right now we're learning about salt typhoon volt typhoon compromis of critical infrastructure Telecom every single day there's something new uh we need to be scaling up not scaling down and that's what I worry about thank you so much for that Dr DOI Mr Singleton I think it's important that we have the right Personnel in place and I'm not an expert on sza or the reductions and F and force there but I actually think that
▶ 1:28:04we also need to be thinking about building up that Tech Talent Workforce in the private sector as well and I think this is where Congress has a really important role to play uh both to incentivize private companies to hire and invest and train their own Talent Workforce but to think about how we want to uh maybe not rely so much on the federal government to solve all these problems but look to the private sector do the work for us thank you anyone else want to chime in I would amplify that in respect to with I don't have any Fidelity on the cuts per se of what you referen but I do say
▶ 1:28:34that uh I put most emphasis on our ability or inability to protect the Communist Party of China in our private sector in Wall Street in telecommunications and energy Academia we need to be more effective and efficient how we drive protection measures out there which is the main battlefield for G ping versus be so concerned about Personnel in the government well you can't do that people Dr Pillsbury yeah I agree with you and the um the homeland security assessment you mentioned I believe
▶ 1:29:05from committee staff is is manned by 800 people and I agree with you that there's there's actually three sentences in the assessment that say China is the greatest threat but the bulk of the work is not China it's all kinds of other threats so looking Personnel issues I just wonder if the committee could write a letter to that unit and say why do you have 800 people how many are working on China the main threat you say yourselves versus
▶ 1:29:35other things but Personnel is very very important that's why I was advocating we need some kind of new unit in our government that keeps track of the competition with China we don't have it now in any in any Department thank you so much for that I agree with that Mr chairman I yield back Jo yields back that G lady from South Carolina Miss bigs is recognized thank you Mr chairman and thank you to our Witnesses for being today the digital age has illuminated
▶ 1:30:05our world with unprecedented connection fueling American prosperity and Transforming Our very way of life this very connectedness has also cast Long Shadows revealing vulnerabilities that our adversaries most notably the people's Republic of China are determined to exploit for too long we have witnessed their calculated and often aggressive drive to cease control of critical Technologies especially
▶ 1:30:36within the vital arteries of our sector the Insidious and and encroaching influence of the Chinese State on Telecom Enterprise WWE over global 5G infrastructure is not merely a business concern it is a direct assault on our national sovereignty their control over these networks creates the potential for digital backd doors a silent
▶ 1:31:06invasion of our Communications networks a potential weapon against the very fabric of our free Society furthermore wildway controls approximately 30% of the global telecommunications market and is the dominant telecommunications provider in many countries acting as an arm of the Chinese Communist party this market dominance creates a dangerous scenario where unchecked
▶ 1:31:36growth equates to increased opportunities for Chinese Espionage imagine a scenario where sensitive government Communications critical infrastructure control systems or even personal data are compromised through these digital doors as we have learned today represented by events like these outlined in our Witnesses testimonies this threat is a stark reality the potential for compromise is
▶ 1:32:06not merely theoretical but a documented capability a chilling Testament to the danger posed by unchecked access to our Vital networks so my question is to Mr is it fair to say that we are now in global arms race with China over control of telecommunications infrastructure no thank you for the question I absolutely believe we're
▶ 1:32:36in a global arms race with China um as it relates to emerging Technologies but telecommunications uh as a result of the tremendous work done by this committee the Biden Administration and the Trump Administration Huawei is down but it's certainly not out I think even just last week the CEO of Huawei sat front and center in a meeting with chairman xiin ping in Beijing to talk about China's role in emerging Technologies uh I think that right alone is a signal of positional power for Huawei and the important
▶ 1:33:07role Huawei plays in China's industrial policies I think uh to borrow a phrase from the Biden Administration um I think there's both promote opportunities and protect opportunities here we really need to be thinking about Western coalitions of telecommunications companies that can provide um alternative Telecommunications gear and systems to both countries here but abroad but also enhanced export controls particularly through um acts like the enforce act to cut off Huawei from Advanced semiconductors AI equipment um I think
▶ 1:33:37that dual approach is actually what's going to be needed here to protect uh communication systems going forward do you agree that the United States has a national security interest in ensuring that the global telecommunications core infrastructure structure is not controlled by a hostile State actor like wuwei I think it's probably the defining challenge of the 21st century is going to be figuring out who controls the means of communication whether
▶ 1:34:07it's Tik Tok whether it's telecommunications networks uh whether it's St basic standards for emerging technologies that will probably be the defining Challenge and whoever wins will control the drivers of the 21st century Revolution and just one more thing so with your in your professional opinion um what do you think the new Trump Administration what could we do about that Rush mentioned um codifying oics I think that's a that's a tremendous move the America First investment
▶ 1:34:37policy that the White House released about two weeks ago was a tremendous road map and offered so much opportunity for Congress to be thinking through codifying through law steps whether it's outbound investment screening enhanced export controls uh severing China's ability to make green field investments in the United States to purchase Farmland I think it was the road map that Congress could follow and I think there would be tremendous bipartisan support for nearly every single one of the measures in that policy thank you very much and I yield back J yields Back
▶ 1:35:07Cher recognizes the gentleman from Michigan Mr uh thodar hope I got that right yeah you did great thank you chairman thank you ranking member and thank you for our distinguished panel here for coming and um expressing your views and opinions um so the CCP has been seeking to exploit American openness in order to steal
▶ 1:35:38economic secrets and undermine our national security I'm particularly concerned about uh the access currently president Trump and um Elan musk have given uh to Doge unfettered access to sensitive information systems containing information about the inner workings of the federal government
▶ 1:36:08and millions of uh Americans a lot of privacy data of uh many Americans they have access to I believe they are young 19 20 year old uh who have not been vetted um or has gone any kind of security uh screening so it is unclear whether or how this information that is given to doge is being safeguarded
▶ 1:36:39and how would ensure that uh such information doesn't fall into the hands of our adversaries like China uh which is particularly troubling given uh Elan musk's close ties with China his uh many business ventures in China how how what kind of firewall there is to protect uh the information that's been freely flowing to the Doge
▶ 1:37:09and specifically I think I want to ask Dr DOI can you explain how China's access to this sensitive information uh information about uh American citizens you know I've been talking having town halls in Michigan talking to uh you know hundreds of my constituents and they're very concerned about their private data their social security numbers their buying habits whatever information
▶ 1:37:39that they have uh falling into the wrong hands you know they already concerned about that information been freely given to Doge and now uh we don't know where else is going so how would that impact our our our um you know us security uh from your Viewpoint well thank you Congressman for the question I'll start by saying this China is the most formidable cyber actor the US faces Bar None it's the most formidable it has mounted a multi-decade campaign
▶ 1:38:10to steal our personal data for Counter Intelligence purposes successfully our intellectual property as we've discussed again quite successfully they're still doing it and to penetrate our critical infrastructure to cause us harm and so when we think about the situ ation we're in now um the US government has already been compromised multiple times I do worry though that you know if we move fast and break things in some of these systems it's possible we're giving uh adversaries additional vectors to compromise additional information and I think Americans understand the China Challenge and Abstract as
▶ 1:38:40uh members of this committee know well it's also useful to make it concrete to them the concrete risk here is that cyber actors will have their personal data and use it potentially down the road especially if they're you know members of law enforcement or members of the government federal government for blackmail purposes and that's something we want to avoid well what can we do and this is for anybody on the panel what can we do to use technology to safeguard uh this uh data that we have I know uh blockchain uh Technologies has been used in the crypto markets
▶ 1:39:11but can that technology has wide applications outside of the crypto industry can such a uh technology be used uh to safeguard uh some of the data well I'll start really quickly with just one or two ideas I think uh technology is partly the solution to the problem that we have regulation is some of it Personnel is some of it Tech is part of it too in three dimensions first we should use better encrypted Communications at the federal level we are not really up to speed on that second we should make sure that the vendors we rely
▶ 1:39:41on like Microsoft and Amazon are not doing business in China in ways that undermine the security of the products that the federal government uses and then I think third of all we have to seriously consider moving certain Communications to classified spaces all right thank you so much my time is almost up so I yield gentan yields the gentleman from Pennsylvania Mr McKenzie is recognized thank you Mr chairman and thank you to all of our panelists today an incredibly important topic that we're discussing here the
▶ 1:40:11threat posed by Chinese Communist party to the us and our national security we've talked about a lot of important issues uh the Cyber intrusions into critical infrastructure the the pernicious use of show social media and also the work that the party uh the Communist Party of China is doing to embed themselves into America's education system one thing that I would like to talk about and focus on that I don't think we've we've maybe hit on enough here today is
▶ 1:40:42the defense industry for America and what the Chinese Communist party is potentially doing to Target our contractors and those in the defense industry we heard a little bit earlier about the theft of intellectual property but what I have seen is that the Communist Party of China is investing in certain companies that seem to me to be strategic investments in sometimes parent companies where then the subsidiaries
▶ 1:41:13or part companies uh of those larger entities are actually providing uh defense uh investment and and uh equipment and technology for our US military so I'm would like to hear from any of the panelists uh if they have seen this kind of activity and what their thoughts are on uh what we should be doing to address
▶ 1:41:43it Congressman thanks for that question I think that's a very deep in introspective question about the commonplace and the tactics of the Communist Party of used not only in a corporate sector but in defense industrial base I think the way you laid out that scenario is common place and I think if you see one example of that whether it be subsidiary a supply chain vendor you're going to see that a thousand times across the it's it's true to their form how they do it how they penetrate how they facilitate they get access whether it be architectural plans or just
▶ 1:42:14access to an IT system it's common place I think with respect to understanding how that works how does it manifest we have to be more effective and efficient with our defense industrial base big companies and have them force similar cyber uh hygiene practices all the way down through their uh supply chain to be able to prevent that from happening again and again we just saw recently some cases in the news where you had um small vendors who were supplying critical Technologies to defense industrial base who were being
▶ 1:42:44owned and operated by a Communist Party of China Personnel that's simple due diligence we could be more effective and efficient at at at uh defeating I'll try to get to you Congressman McKenzie a couple of things one is a copy of President Trump's book in 2015 when he laid out the sophistication that he had observed uh with Chinese companies they don't always give their real names when they come shopping for things in our country uh
▶ 1:43:14secondly there's a young scholar at SC here in town he just finished a book I I heard the briefing on it uh the Chinese often have five or six layers of Institutions legal entities it could be in the Bahamas or it could be in Malta and when they do cyber Espionage or when they buy and sell American companies they can hide behind these five or six layers so this young scholar is trying to see how many of these layers can be detected uh through our own
▶ 1:43:44cyber operations but the the the issue in president he wasn't president then but the issue in his book great again was just how sophisticated the chines these are from his own he tells stories of his own efforts to have Trump Company products made in China he doesn't say it but I think he lost money he doesn't like that kind of thing I would just add that sometimes people are the problem um it's it's pretty concerning that there's a lack of post-employment restrictions on DOD and IC officials they can go work for Chinese companies
▶ 1:44:14and maintain their security clearances after employment they can Lobby on behalf of Chinese companies or companies that have major investments in China that's totally permissible and allowed today I'd argue this is probably an opportunity for legislation to come up with post-employment restrictions a real review on security clearances um and maybe you shouldn't be able to hold a security clearance and then benefit from that security clearance while you represent or Advance a Chinese company's interests and Congressman I just add if I may maybe three quick
▶ 1:44:45things first uh beneficial ownership knowledge is important for law enforcement there's corporate transparency I could help us get at their shell companies that are acquiring parts of our defense indust base second on the Cyber side uh there's a lot more that we need to hold our companies to do uh in Contracting and finally you know cfus is a tool that we need to expand for this purpose particularly with the Venture great well I want I want to thank all the panelists for that information and suggestions that they offered because again I've seen this myself
▶ 1:45:15uh in several instances and I um find it very concerning and uh so I think that we should be doing more to address this uh across the entire spectrum of of U America's economy but particularly when it comes to the defense industry so just want to thank all of you again for joining us today and for for your responses I yield back to the chairman gentleman yields chair recognizes the gentleman from Rhode Island Mr magaziner thank you chairman McCall and ranking member Thompson before I begin I just want to recognize
▶ 1:45:45the empty chair on the Das and offer my condolences to the uh the family the friends and the constituents of Congressman Turner uh although we were only colleagues here on the committee for a short time I know that he left a legacy of a lifetime of public service and impact uh in his home City of Houston and our thoughts and prayers are with him and in his family today um on the topic of today's hearing the Chinese authoritarian government
▶ 1:46:15continues to launch aggressive attacks against the United States including but not limited to offensive cyber operations targeting critical infrastructure transnational repression industrial Espionage and more the CCP has worked to infiltrate our most sensitive sectors including the energy grid and our Communications networks creating high-risk vulnerabilities in a time of Crisis these cyber attacks against the United States also include the illegal Pursuit and
▶ 1:46:45theft of American intellectual property the theft of Trade Secrets through industrial Espionage coercion or joint ventures poses a serious threat to the US economy erodes our competitiveness and most importantly costs Americans jobs China's theft of our intellectual property has been allowed to undercut American businesses uh impacting our Workforce and undermining our National Defense the Chinese government also continues to suppress
▶ 1:47:16descent outside of its borders through a range of Co coercive tactics including surveillance harassment and even violence the ccp's long arm of repression has real implications for the fundamental freedoms and human rights that we uphold as a nation unfortunately the Trump Administration continues to strengthen China by insulting our allies undermining NATO launching expensive trade Wars against Mexico and Canada and now
▶ 1:47:46other American Allies and surrendering the developing world to China by shutting down USA Donald Trump and Elon musk's destructive elimination of us Aid is not only creating a series of humanitarian crises it plays right into the hands of the CCP driving strategically important countries away from the United States and into the waiting arms of China's belt and Road initiative similarly Trump and musk's
▶ 1:48:16shameful cuts to our national security and cyber security agencies makes us less safe they have made Reckless Personnel cuts and pressured public servants to resign at cisa the Central Intelligence Agency the FBI and the defense department all of these agencies and departments are critical for protecting Americans against CCP aggression preventing cyber attacks and attacks on our infrastructure and holding Chinese agents in the United States
▶ 1:48:47accountable uh Dr Doshi can you comment on the importance of American soft power the importance of maintaining relationships particularly in the developing World In This Global contest that we have with the CCP and the dangers that come from repelling those Nations away from the United States and into the waiting arms of the Bel and Road initiative well thank you for the question Congressman I'll answer in two respects first I'll talk a little bit about I think the the the global South if you will and then maybe the rest of our
▶ 1:49:17allies and partners on the global south portion you know China has learned from the first trade War what they're trying to do now is do better in the second potential coming trade War by relying more on exports to developing countries than to the United States and the West so they're relying more on Latin America Africa southeast Asia and other parts of the world to import their goods now that's a challenge for us because if we want to be able to really bring leverage to Bear we don't want them to be able to find market share elsewhere around the world so how do we stop that well we have to PE players in the developing
▶ 1:49:47world we have to either bring Aid or tie that Aid sometimes to vendors implicitly we have to make sure that were active and it is possible that some of these cuts um in some of these places can undermine some of those efforts yeah if I could just because I don't have a lot of time left I want to give an example just to illustrate this for my colleagues here and for anyone who is listening I have a factory in my district that makes a peanut paste called plumpy nut it's used to uh save the lives of children who are starving it's a high protein paste they received a
▶ 1:50:17stop work order from Doge from Elon Musk their contracts were cancelled a month later finally as children were dying around the world their contract was restored but they still have not been paid yet they are owed millions of meanwhile we are relying on the developing world for critical minerals for intelligence gathering for trade in competition with China and we are letting their kids starve because some kid behind a computer screen here in Washington is cutting off
▶ 1:50:48life-saving Aid shooting ourselves in the foot and strengthening our adversary China I yield back gentleman yields the chair recognizes gentleman from Tennessee Mr ogles thank you Mr chairman and uh just take a moment to offer condolences and thoughts and prayers to the Turner family again uh briefly our colleague uh but a gentle soul and a kind man and he will be missed Mr Pillsbury you co-edited the Heritage foundation's
▶ 1:51:18report winning the new Cold War a plan for countering China it notes that there is growing evidence that Beijing is co-opting divisive ESG and Dei initiatives to undermine us competitiveness what do you believe are the implications of those efforts well they're very scary if they succeed we lose our Global Primacy uh we lose all the benefits of being the world
▶ 1:51:48leader and I doubt that we can get it back well you you hit on an important Point um I think sometimes we get distracted with uh the media cycle and perhaps what's going on the European continent which is important of course but uh when we look at the existential threats to the United States and our Supremacy globally whether that's militarily or economically speaking would it be fair to say or at least it's my assessment China would be the adversary that we should be
▶ 1:52:18most concerned about your thoughts yes I think so and the good news I've just learned in the past hour at this hearing is that having lost the election that the Democrats now seem to have a new theme which I had not heard before we Democrats are tougher on China than you Republicans now there's a defense I'm sure but the fact that this is a issue to attack Republicans really shows we have some hope for our country that we're going to have a bipartisan approach it's now a bipartisan
▶ 1:52:49issue right well I mean but again I I want to focus on this is so you know we talked about you know you hear about the Bel belt and Road initiative on investment in in foreign countries and how China is quite frankly co-opting governments around the world with their Belt Road initiative and yet some of the foreign aid that is being griped about that's being cut is for gender fluidity in some far-flung craphole country that nobody cares about and quite frankly they're offended that we're there and so as we start to prioritize where we're spending our money
▶ 1:53:19I think we think about Homeland Security we think about our lethality we think about our dominance on the in the economic and Military sectors and so but I want to get back to China and Dei while the Chinese Communist Party Delights in the spread of ideologies like Dei they weaponize it against us it throws it in our faces we can't forget how they opened their engagement with the last Administration by grandstanding about the black lives matter movement at a meeting with secretary blinkin in Alaska
▶ 1:53:50meanwhile the CCP is literally cutting the organs out of the Fallen gong practitioners they have concentration camps for the weers and other religious minorities and after they kidnap and abuse Weger men they send CCP officials to their homes to rape their wives and make their children sit with them for dinner and call them Dad they demonically call this the pair up and become family program the ccp's wickedness is hard to Fathom Mr Pillsbury your written testimony encourages encourages us to expose China's
▶ 1:54:20corruption censorship you specifically mentioned a Bloomberg News article about the XI Shing Ping's family's wealth why do you think the CCP is so sensitive about the wealth of its leadership what I advocate in my testimony has to do with the ruthless nature of power politics at the top in China we know this from a lot of disclosures that happen after somebody gets killed or in one case uh when kisser was making his second visit
▶ 1:54:51October 71 a large number of generals and Senior officials had been executed or put in prison and we did not know about it this continually happens there's a book last year by a British Diplomat named Roger garide called coup cou d'a he implies that the current prime minister of China could launch a coup against Xi Jinping and he even opens the book with how that might happen now the Prime Minister suddenly found himself out in dead of a heart attack
▶ 1:55:21but high level po politics in Beijing we have to keep track of it and we have to know what is going on that affects our interests this is one of the things I advocate uh and I got this idea frankly from president Trump who once raised the issue our politics is in the newspapers every day can someone tell me about what xiin Ping is worried about and it's very hard to do that we need to spend more time on it yes yes sir and Mr chairman I just want to say you know as we look to our homeland as we look to our initiatives
▶ 1:55:51abroad we we have to think in terms of what's in it for us uh so whether it's the minerals deal in Ukraine whether it's uh deals and programs in Latin America or South and Central America or Africa we've got to put America first we need to support our president and put our country first Mr chairman I yeld back gentan yields chair recognizes the gentleman from California Mr swell thanks chair uh thanks for having this important hearing and also thank you for acknowledging uh the loss of our colleague
▶ 1:56:21uh May mayor and representative Turner we're going to miss him in his Spirit on this topic I actually don't disagree much with what my colleague from Tennessee uh just mentioned I want to ask the the witnesses here as it relates to China do you agree that unlike almost any intelligence service in the world including ours that they tasked their intelligence service to steal intellectual property to benefit uh Chinese
▶ 1:56:52business businesses is there anyone here that disagrees with that does everyone I would just add one thing I think they're almost unique in the world in tasking the MSS to do this most intelligence services in the world are spying on government secrets not trying to build up the national champions so in many ways we can tip our hat that the Chinese intelligence service is working for the national champions unlike all the world's other
▶ 1:57:22IG services but I don't think you're suggesting that like the CIA should be stealing secrets to help Cisco I think they would resign yeah um so does everyone here agree that our greatest economic foe in the world is China I think there's agreement here just by a show of hands who here would support defending militarily if China
▶ 1:57:52if China militarily invaded Taiwan so would I and so would a lot of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle and I rais that because my colleague from Tennessee also referenced uh Ukraine uh in the minerals deal there and what concerns me about the state of play in Ukraine on this very important topic is that if you are Taiwan right now you should be very worried
▶ 1:58:22about us possibly leaving our friends in the field in Ukraine and if you're Taiwan you're probably asking yourself could the United States stitch together an alliance to actually defend us because if China were to militarily invade Taiwan sure it's in our interest to defend Taiwan maybe there's a couple other countries in the region who may have an interest I don't know why Europe would want to get involved unless it was strong American
▶ 1:58:53uh partnership and strength and allyship that persuaded them to do that and so to my Republican colleagues I guess I just warn that we can't be tough on China but soft on Russia because China won't believe us they will actually think that we wouldn't really honor our commitment to Taiwan and that the rest of the world wouldn't go with us because we would have a credibility deficit
▶ 1:59:23on that issue as it relates to Ukraine I also just want to note that the return on investment is probably the greatest military return on investment the United States has ever spent and I don't want to Discount how much money we have spent it's a lot but most of the money has gone to factories in Texas and Ohio to create American jobs benefiting American companies and the number of soldiers lost is zero so you could say the return on investment is infinity because
▶ 1:59:54you cannot divide zero so these two issues are directly related and I hope we don't separate them because I want to be tough on China and tough on Russia and I'm afraid you can't be tough on one and soft on the other Mr Doshi what is the state of play right now as it relates to Chinese whether it's state sponsored or individuals that they Harbor
▶ 2:00:24in their country as far as cyber attacks that are not just stealing intellectual theft but also ransomware or fishing or denial of service attacks on us companies well thank you Congressman in the last decade China's become the world's most capable cyber actor I think you could argue before that it was Russia now it's definitely China uh when it comes to St taking American personal data intellectual property or pre-positioning for Cyber attack with web shells or living off the land techniques they're at the state- ofthe art and they're investing more
▶ 2:00:54resources more staff and more Personnel to be the best at it and and really quickly Russia obviously has a lot of independent cyber actors who are just financially benefiting themselves what inside China would you have the tarity as an independent actor not associated with the government to attack the US I I don't hear much about like that environment very quickly China has a number of independent cyber actors but they usually are contracted by the government they don't usually go Rogue on their own thank you yield back Mr chair thank you when yields
▶ 2:01:25uh chair recognizes gentleman from Colorado Mr Evans thank you Mr chair ranking member thank you of course to the witnesses for taking your uh your time to come and have this important conversation with us today um I spent 22 years in the military and law enforcement 12 years US Army another 10 years uh as a as a local police officer and the district that I represent um is really an intersection of a lot of things that are critical both in that public safety space and that National Defense space uh particularly and we'll start off the conversation uh with
▶ 2:01:55critical infrastructure like energy I represent the fourth highest energy producing County in the nation oil gas wind solar geothermal we got um nuclear fuel rods in the district and so um the first question to Mr evanina is we know that the CCP is engaged pretty heavily in cyber Espionage and attacks on critical infrastructure can you comment on how we're currently postured to be able to defend against those attacks and what the road map going forward looks like to be able to protect our
▶ 2:02:25critical infrastructure and energy production Congressman thanks for the question and I concur with your assessment of Colorado back in 2017 and 18 when I was director of the national Counter Intelligence security Center we identified Colorado is not necessarily phase line zero but a critical element specifically the I25 Corridor with we saw as this is going to be a perfect example a road mapap for how China is attacking our critical infrastructure from north to south in Colorado because of those critical entities
▶ 2:02:55you referenced and we said because they're doing this here in Colorado we are now going to map that across our nation because what China does very well is mimic their successes because they were successful in Colorado we said with they let's look at how they're doing this across the ecosystem whether it be in Austin Texas California Boston and we saw the same type of activities in critical infrastructure as we saw in Colorado second part is I think we have to be more effective and effic it it making aware how this threat manifests in critical
▶ 2:03:25infrastructure as you know 85 to 90% of the critical infrastructure is owned and operated by the private sector they don't get that top Seeker intelligence or critical intelligence we need to be more effective in declassifying and getting known and collected intelligence from the CIA NSA and FBI to those people who own the critical infrastructure so they can create and mitigate some of the Cyber activities they see in their networks thank you for that and then uh kind of giving off of that topic still around critical infrastructure uh Mr
▶ 2:03:55Singleton uh we know that one of the key challenges that's facing us is just the ability to build that critical in infrastructure to have that manufacturing uh base and to have those Supply chains protected with uh sources that are not controlled by the Chinese Communist party and so again for my district being very energy heavy one of the big concerns um that that we have is if we don't have the energy to actually be able to fuel and provide provide for American manufacturing and American infrastructure in the United States
▶ 2:04:25well we know that China does not have anywhere near the environmental regulations that we have and they're bringing on uh just an incredible number of of coal fired plants using slave labor and and outright um terrible methods to be able to fuel their grid can you just comment on what we need to be uh able to do in the United States particularly in the energy generation space uh to make sure that we have sufficient energy to be able to compete with the Chinese Communist part and their absolute disregard for the environment and how they fuel their grid
▶ 2:04:56no no absolutely thank you for the question I mean I don't think we can be Our Own Worst Enemy here I think that we've unfortunately taken a number of steps to make it very difficult to even mine or certainly process rare earth materials here in the United States um until we work through those some some of those regulations I would say we're fighting our with one hand tied and behind our back um mineral stockpiling may be a solution there but I think we there's a lot of work to be done on Congress to get there I think ultimately we're going to have to be incentivizing and thinking about
▶ 2:05:27select investments in new energy uh systems and structures and companies um to help scale them uh and working with partners and allies I think we've all mentioned here that the Japanese the Koreans the Australians uh certainly Country Companies here in the United States all want to work together to build out this safe secure ecosystem of energy systems and uh structures uh we should be incentivizing that I think we can lead there uh and it's an area where we can can actually diffuse some of the costs among our closest allies or we can actually share some of the sensitive information
▶ 2:05:57that goes into those types of systems in my remaining 30 seconds just around batteries we have an incredible Reliance on batteries and the battery supply uh you know the battery supply chains can you comment on how we can better protect our battery um production and storage systems here in the United States China is a champion in battery energy storage solutions these companies U particularly catl uh are Mainline into our electrical grid today across the United States and the number of uh Partnerships between catl and
▶ 2:06:27US utilities is only increasing uh this is insanity um not just because satl is ostensibly private but responsible to reporting to the Chinese government but because as we've talked about today they serve as vectors into our critical in infrastructure and Supply chains for cyber attacks and ESPN thank you yield back gentan yields chair recognizes the gentleman from New York Mr Goldman thank you Mr chairman um again I'm very glad we are having this hearing um and once
▶ 2:06:57again I note the complete disconnect between this hearing and its purpose and what the Trump Administration is doing um absolutely we need to address China and uh do it on all fronts cyber economic military diplomatic in all ways but when the CIA sends
▶ 2:07:28an unclassified email to the White House listing names of employees hired over the last two years including a number China focused analysts whose identities of course are heavily guarded from Chinese hacks that compromises significantly our ability to conduct and elligence gather intelligence and push back against China Mr Ean
▶ 2:07:58I I know uh you were the director of the national Counter Intelligence ncsc I forget what it's but the the notion that probationary employees are disposable seems to me at least to fly in the face of how our intelligence Community works because am I correct that in those early years you often have extensive language training uh
▶ 2:08:28and extensive uh additional training to prepare you to go out in the field and successfully execute your job is that a a fair assessment yes C and you know I know director Burns recently what when he uh took over at the agency um really tried to beef up hires related to China and those who speak uh some of the Chinese languages you
▶ 2:08:58actually increased the agency's budget from 9% devoted to China related analysis in Espionage to what it is today which is closer to 20% and so am I correct Mr abanina that if an unclassified document is sent to the White House that includes the actual names of CIA employees that significantly jeopardizes their ability to continue to do the clandestine intelligence
▶ 2:09:28work that they're uh charged with doing is that accurate a congressman I'm not familiar with the Fidelity of that issue but if it's an unclassified report of individuals who are undercover who have a cover on them and it's provided in the wrong hands of the White House to those who don't need to know it could potentially cause problems yes right and of course we know and I think you said in your your opening statement that China's hacking of Americans personal data is widespread and extensive I
▶ 2:09:59believe you said there 50% of Americans have had personal data stolen by the CCP and so what does that for um the possibility that unvetted um non-government officials can get access to every single American's personal identification information through the treasury Department of the Social Administration
▶ 2:10:29and potentially place it on unclassified servers does that expose Americans personal identification information to China's hacking and cyber efforts well obviously in that situation but I would profer Congressman as I mehen uh almost every American has had all their person identified information already taken by the Chinese I think the concern you reference is hypothetically if those is merged with individuals who potentially
▶ 2:10:59undercover and and matching uh person a with that data right and and I I think that's that's incredibly important and so the notion that we're having this hearing and talking about beefing up our efforts to uh address China to countering threats posed by the CCP and I want to be clear when we say China I mean the CCP to our national security and yet what the Trump Administration what Elon Musk are doing is undermining those
▶ 2:11:29efforts in fact there's reporting even that some of the people who have been fired with security clearances or probationary employees are now being recruited by Russia and China to be agents themselves and we know about Elon musk's significant conflicts of interest in China with his own businesses in part of which uh influence per maybe have influenced his opposition to the budget bill that we agreed in a bipartisan way to pass in December and so Mr chairman I
▶ 2:11:59would just urge you and your colleagues on the other side of the aisle to take this focus and this concern and bring it to the administration so that they can join you in bolstering these efforts rather than undermining them and I yield back Jo gentan yields that concludes uh this hearing and I'd like to enter into the record the closing statement by chairman Mark green who
▶ 2:12:29is uh sick today we hope he gets better um I just want to give a few closing remarks but if the ranking member has yeah let me recognize ranking member uh thank you let me thank our Witnesses for their excellent testimony and obviously um you will probably see some of it in written form shared other places but uh for all the right reasons we have to protect our country and
▶ 2:13:00uh um I don't think there's any real difference on the committee uh as who the real enemy is I think there's some question as to how we should protect it but I'm convinced that we'll do that uh Mr chair I want to enter into record uh uh part of what Mr Goldman was saying uh a story sharing that Russia and China both are attempting to recruit disg gruntal federal employees
▶ 2:13:30uh for their own benefit without objection sword uh in addition to that I want to enter into the record uh the fact that an unclassified email with names of some employees uh in the Trump Administration was sent uh um to the White House and without objection s uh what we heard today is that China's ambition to shift
▶ 2:14:00International order and their capability to do is real while acting chairman guest recognized that countering threats from the CCP will also take economic and diplomatic investment the administration's actions run counter to that statement just today in response to the Trump's administration's recent actions the Chinese Embassy in the US tweeted if war is what the
▶ 2:14:30US want be it a TA War a trade war or any other type of War we are ready to fight till the end in a war a nation needs allies and assets this Administration is sidelining our friends NATO as well as Ukraine while appeasing Russia the administration is cutting the Cyber Workforce that protects our networks undermining our intelligence
▶ 2:15:00capabilities and weakening our relations around the world the administration's approach does not make sense the administration is leading us into a fight with China with a misguided foreign policy a misguided trade policy a misguided cyber policy a misguided intelligence policy and a misguided Economic Policy instead we must maintain our tried and true alliances and posture the
▶ 2:15:31US to defend against threats both foreign and domestic I urge our Republican colleagues to step up and hold the Trump Administration accountable I thank again the witnesses for that testimony and yield back ranking member yields let me in closing say uh it's been a a great hearing I think as Dr Pillsbury said this is a bipartisan issue it's a a threat to the United States and As Americans we unite
▶ 2:16:01as Republicans and Democrats um I also just want to make a few comments on the threat landscape as I see it I as both the chairman of Meritus of this committee and Foreign Affairs uh the threat um after the fall of Afghanistan the invasion of Ukraine uh um then the Ayatollah rearing his ugly head in the Middle East but the Unholy alliance between Putin and chairman she at the Beijing Olympics
▶ 2:16:31prior to the invasion of Ukraine is I find deeply disturbing I think as Dr Doshi mentioned that the Chinese have completely revitalized the Russian military Iran has sent drones that Russia uses to kill ukrainians the same drones that they use to fire into Israel uh however I do see normalization in the Middle East being the eternal optimist I do see the conflict in Eastern Europe I hope being resolved it's a threat to the Indo
▶ 2:17:01Pacific that I find the most serious within the context of the great power competition but also someone who's traveled to Taiwan and been surrounded on the island by War Games exercises conducted by the CCP in a direct shot across the bow not only to me but to the recently inaugurated president Li um as someone who flew over the South China Sea uh seeing uh China Chinese warships invading
▶ 2:17:31Philippine Waters with uh water cannons hitting uh vessels in the Philippines uh warning us that we are invading Chinese Sovereign territory it's getting very aggressive which is why I passed the Aus Bill to the alliance of United States Australia and UK to fur further not only submarine Wars Warfare but also pillar two which is AI Quantum Innovation when it comes to weapon systems
▶ 2:18:02which is why I think again going back to this export control issue on chips is important I think an invasion of Taiwan would be catastrophic either China would own or tsmc which I've traveled to and have seen you mentioned asml machines very important that they not sell those to China but uh the result there is I was told by tsmc would be a complete shutdown of 90% of
▶ 2:18:32the advanced Global manufacturing what which is precisely why it introduced the chips act under the guidance of Mike Pompeo then Secretary of State under President Trump so there's no confusion about this program which was designed to pull supply chain out of Taiwan and invested in the United States tsmc just announced a hundred billion investment in the United States which is a good thing and we've had $650 billion dollar reinvested
▶ 2:19:03for the purpose of manufacturing this critical asset here in the United States um and I want to leave you with two other thoughts that have not come up and that is I have visited with Merrick Garland being a in the Brotherhood of the doj and talked to him about the China task force being shut down even though SPN has not um this united front someone who worked in this area many years ago concerns
▶ 2:19:33me as a a 501c3 political arm of the CCP in the United States um uh and also something that was brought to my attention by Palmer lucky who runs andraw that does a lot of great Innovation like the ghost shark which will be used extensively in the Pacific talked about our patent system uh being open to the public and how China for them it's a treasure tro of documents that
▶ 2:20:03they can look at on a daily basis and steal patents from the United States um finally Capital flows you know I U introduced a bill last Congress uh I know the administration's come out with a with their own guidance an executive order on restriction of capital flows that then basically uh go into arming the pla's war machine um so I leave you with those thoughts in
▶ 2:20:33conclusion uh I invite you to provide further testimony on those points and finally to the point that Dr Pillsbury raised and that is the role of this committee uh when you have all these employees over there at the Department of Homeland uh how many are really working on on China and in my view it should be the highest priority so any guidance you have to this Committee in terms of what the ranking member and the chairman um in the committee can
▶ 2:21:04do um to strengthen our uh resiliency uh against what I consider to be the great power uh competition the biggest threat to the United States uh looking to the Next Generation uh and that is communist China so with that uh I know I have some closing remarks that have to do with written statements will be allowed and so forth but um I want to thank the witnesses for being here today um
▶ 2:21:34and I look forward to seeing your addendum your further testimony and writing to the the issues I just raised with that uh this committee stands adjourned e