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▶ 0:19:30committee will come to order without objection the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time this hearing is entitled examining policies to counter China without objection all members will have five legislative days within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion in the record I now recognize myself for four minutes for an opening statement I want to welcome our members to this hearing on China and I look forward to our testimony from the very first Trump Administration many will recall a key
▶ 0:20:00China policy issue as the global race to 5G and urged we urged caution to our foreign partners by both the executive and the legislative branch and our friends around the world about Telecom infastructure we said there's a right way and there's a w way and yet other Technologies before it 5G showed that there's always a country that launches an innovation first isn't always the one that wins rather it's the econ that's got the economic system to
▶ 0:20:30transform those technological advances into winning new products and services resulting in economic and productivity gains I open with this example of 5G because in a broader context of our economic and geopolitically rival with China it's often neglected instead narrow questions end up taking an existential importance one day it's the race to 5G the next day it's concerned over a trendy Chinese app like Tik Tock or to today it's deep seeks ability to
▶ 0:21:00answer a question in more or less time than a US competitor of course these things Merit our close attention but if the if these are the trees then Congress really must still see the forest for example if we Edge out China in artificial intelligence but Washington prevents our companies from commercializing it what is what happens if we secure a one-year lead in hypersonics but a defense procurement obstacle course makes its deployment a pipe drink
▶ 0:21:30what if we attract to our Shores the greatest technical Minds in the world but our tangle of red tape regulations mean that their startups being taken public is out of the question in short winning a race is no substitute for choosing a better way of life with a better political and economic system at our hearing today we'll examine tools to counter China but make no mistake those tools are embedded in an American system and it's the health of of our thriving system that ultimately decides
▶ 0:22:01who will prevail we will use sanctions for example but sanctions did not build a 30 trillion dollar economy we can use export controls but it wasn't export controls that created eight American exceptional technology companies each worth more than a trillion dollars we can use the committee on foreign investment in the US but cifas didn't make the dollar the world's Premier Reserve currency today's hearing is based on the idea that beating China means dubing doubling down
▶ 0:22:31on American strengths first we must ensure that our federal budget our fiscal house is in order and on a sustainable path next we must lead a Global Financial system where like-minded economies reject non-transparent predatory lending and mercantilism while crafting and enforcing rules that Safeguard economic growth and stability second our investors our markets our institutions both large and small must be able to n cutting Ed Cutting Edge ideas
▶ 0:23:01and help take them from friends and family back startups to an initial public offering third we must ensure that access to Capital is coupled with access to energy that means the US must champion in all the above energy strategy offering real alternatives to failed Chinese lending and white elephants and last but not least our strength depends on prioritizing Americans health and safety of our hometowns and our cities which have been so devastated by
▶ 0:23:31an opioid surge that China has helped unleash each of these elements is key to any real china strategy and it's critical that they're all addressed today and I yield back and the chair now recognizes the ranking member of the committee the gentoman from California for a 4-minute opening statement thank you uh Mr chairman uh for this hearing in this is very important good morning everyone
▶ 0:24:02I and committee Democrats have long recognized the National Security concerns and threats of our to our economy from the Chinese Communist Party we're very supportive of efforts to prevent Wall Street from investing Americans hard-earned Savings in the Chinese military I've also pressed for the United States to use an influence at the IMF that's the intern National monetary fund the World Bank and other multilateral
▶ 0:24:32institutions to stop the worst lending Contracting and other industrial practices of China but Mr chair while I would love to work with you in a bipartisan way to advance efforts to stop China's aggression I'm concerned that our efforts would be meaningless as president Trump and his unelected billionaire co-president Elon Musk destroy the United States government
▶ 0:25:03and our alliances in just the past month Trump has imposed import taxes on our closest allies Frozen aid for impoverished Nations illegally shuttered us Aid and cfpb and threatened to illegally seize Greenland can uh Canada and the Panama Canal inexplicit he has also sided with Russia's president uh Putin over
▶ 0:25:33allies in Ukraine and Europe withholding military assistance and blaming Russia's murderous Invasion on the victims of its War As Trump tears up treaties and alliances Embraces dictators and abandons America's Global Leadership role he is given China a free pass to fill the ball left by his Retreat we're here to talk about China and discuss bills
▶ 0:26:04about countering Chinese government aggression all while Trump musk and Congressional some Congressional Republicans give China the green light to see other of our allies such as Taiwan Trump and musk have so eagerly sold out America's values and workers to China because they are singular focus on billionaire tax cuts and amassing more personal wealth as it
▶ 0:26:34stands Elon Musk makes billions in China where more than half of Tesla vehicles are produced nearly 40% of Tesla's battery supply relies on Chinese companies and Chinese buyers represent Elon masque's largest market while Tesla sales continue to collapse in the United States last year year there was a 90% increase in China and Trump is ready to forcibly
▶ 0:27:05remove gazans to build golf courses for Trump and his billionaire friends and investors just as the CCP that is the Chinese Communist Party forc removal of Wagers from their land racist nationalism anti-democratic activity and even genocide and War are not a concern if it means power and wealth for them and their billionaire class while this is to be expected from
▶ 0:27:35people like musk and Trump I'm deeply disappointed that my Republican colleagues many of whom have previously been outspoken about the important role the US plays as a beacon of freedom and defender of democracies around the globe Republicans did not even speak up when the Trump Pentagon refused to allow one of its trafficking experts to join us today to speak about Chinese fenol p procurers
▶ 0:28:05and Chinese money laundry committee Democrats believe that together we can solve The World's Greatest problems to counter uh China we must stand with our allies and fight for a a vibrant effective democracy with respect civil servants who carry out our foreign policy Democrats will not rest until we stop the unlawful effort to dis dismantled our government here in overseas hopefully our Republican colleagues will come to their senses and join us in this effort
▶ 0:28:35and thank you for the additional time Mr chair the gentlewoman yields back today we we welcome the testimony of John Miller Senior vice president of policy trust data and technology and general Council the information technology Industry Council Nicholas McMurray the managing director of international and nuclear policy at clear path John casara a retired special agent formerly with the United States Treasury Department Martin mu uh mu muizen a non-resident senior fellow at the Geo
▶ 0:29:05economics Center at the Atlantic Council and Dr Rush Doshi at the CV star senior fellow for Asian studies and director of the China strategy initiative at the Council on Foreign Relations and an assistant professor at Georgetown University we thank each of you for taking time to be with us today each of you'll be recognized for 5 minutes to give an oral presentation of your testimony without objection your written statements will be made of the record Mr Miller you're now recognized for 5 minutes chairman Hill ranking member
▶ 0:29:35Waters and distinguished members of the committee on behalf of the information technology Industry Council or ITI thank you for the opportunity to testify today on examining US policies to counter China this is a timely topic and I commend the committee for its thoughtful and sustained engagement in this area ITI is a global policy and advocacy organization representing 80 of the world's lead in tech companies and I lead I's trust data and Technology policy team including our work on security artificial intelligence
▶ 0:30:06and data policy in the United States and globally I's members represent every vertical of the tech ecosystem from cloud and AI to consumer electronics from semiconductors and data centers to cyber security our membership represents around 10% of the US GDP directly employs 9 million Americans and accounts for roughly 32% of the market cap capitalization of the S&P 500 as of 2024 there were seven companies that had reached or exceeded global market cap
▶ 0:30:36of trillion six of those seven are US tech companies who are ITI members policy makers should recognize the preeminence of these companies and The Innovation economy they anchor as an asset and the Envy of other nations indeed the strength of the Innovation economy bolsters the broader US economy and drives the US competitive advantage in tools and capabilities that underpin US National Security such as semiconductors AI Quantum and advanced manufacturing do not take for
▶ 0:31:06granted the current US technology lead over China China's long-standing disregard for international Norms governing free trade and Market access and its theft of Ip has been well established and must be addressed however regardless of whether China plays by the rules we should be clear r that over the past two decades China has improved in technological development Innovation and growth and that these gains have not been achieved simply by virtue of stealing us technology make no mistake ITI and the companies we represent take
▶ 0:31:36seriously the US government's obligation to protect National Security successful policies to counter China's technological rise must enable companies to better compete globally not wall the United States off from competing with China or inadvertently erect hurdles to US tech innovate Innovation and investment us investment supply chain tax and trade policies and regulations must be crafted to maintain the current asymmetric Advantage as a key driver of US economic security
▶ 0:32:07we believe the government and Industry must work together to achieve these objectives in a way that supports the Innovation investment and economic growth that are foundational elements of Economic Security this morning ITI released a paper offering our members consensus policy recommendations for US economic security our paper defines Economic Security as encompassing elements of the economy that affect the stability technological competitiveness and resilience that enable the government to better protect National Security the ideal policy environment
▶ 0:32:37to Foster US economic security is one in which the global success of American and multinational companies operating in the US supports technological leadership and Innovation and the government and private sector work side by side to safeguard critical Technologies our paper which is incorporated as part of my written statement offers 10 recommendations three of which which I will highlight now first in the area of financial policy investment and transaction reviews should strengthen economic ties with allies by establishing
▶ 0:33:07clear and targeted National Security criteria for what is reviewable Capital Investments both inbound and outbound are foundational and help companies in the United States diversify the supply chain engage the research and development ecosystem gain access to Global Talent and gather Global Market intelligence overly Broad investment restrictions whether through cifas or the outbound investment security program will impede domestic and overseas investment in and by us companies and consequently decrease
▶ 0:33:39Security second reinvigorate us trade leadership and open new markets to optimize for both trade and economic security ITI encourages the US government to negotiate robust binding commitments that facilitate trade through new strategic and targeted bilateral and multilateral Market access agreements to enable us companies to compete on an even playing field third continue to incentivize Innovation and investment in foundational and emerging technology one near-term priority should be restoring the immediate tax redu
▶ 0:34:09deduction of R&D expenses to drive Innovation and create high-wage jobs in the United States another should be maintaining and improving the chips program by pursuing meaningful permitting reform and streamlined reporting requirements doing so will help promote these multi-billion dollar investments in semiconductors the building block of the modern digital economy as a strategic Economic Security asset thank you again for the opportunity to testify today I look forward to your questions thank you Mr Miller Mr McMurray you're now recognized for five minutes
▶ 0:34:40good morning chairman Hill rank member Waters members of the committee thank you for the invitation to testify today my name is Nico McMurray and I'm the managing director of international and nuclear policy at clear path at clear path we believe in markets over mandates and Innovation over regulation when it comes to energy we want to make it here sell it globally and compete with China the global energy landscape is rapidly evolving demand growth is skyrocketing could you pull your mic a little closer please yes Supply chains are shifting
▶ 0:35:11and we are in a global competition countries want more reliable affordable and cleaner energy to fuel their economies this is a major opportunity for us companies to lead strategic financing tools can help the US strengthen its energy leadership open new markets and counter China let me put this into context China currently has 57 operating nuclear reactors and 28 reactors under construction while the US has 94 operating reactors it currently has no commercial reactors
▶ 0:35:41under construction but several demonstrations are close the world's electricity consumption is at an all-time high the International Energy agency says Global electricity demand could increase up to 76% and we could see a double in US electricity Demand by 2015 American private sector Innovation is the key and extends Beyond domestic borders take advancements in LG for example in 2023 the US surged its LG exports
▶ 0:36:11as a result Russia's market share in the EU was reduced from 40% in 2021 to 8% in 2023 there is also a huge Economic Opportunity for American companies and Technologies if the US doesn't act now the world would choose cheap options from China China is already taking an all of the above energy approach for example last year China started construction on about 94 gaw of cool capacity and also invested $940
▶ 0:36:41billion in clean energy without a focused effort to expand domestic energy production us companies risk being sidelined in global markets to level the playing field the US must strengthen its trade and development Finance toolkit export and development financing plays a pivotal role in advancing America's strategy for Global energy dominance XM and DFC can strengthen us leadership in global energy markets America must take a more agile approach using financing tools to drisk
▶ 0:37:12projects and attract private Capital export and development Finance prioritizes investments in infrastructure manufacturing energy security and economic Partnerships XM and DFC provide loans and guarantees that must be repaid ensuring taxpayers dollars are used efficiently while expanding opportunities for us businesses this approach creates American jobs strengthens economic ties and positions the us as the global energy partner both the XM bank and DFC are due for reauthorization
▶ 0:37:42this Congress creating a prime opportunity to refine America's foreign policy toolkit while XM is one of the best tools for increasing export competitiveness its current capabilities limit the bank from achieving energy the following five recommendations could bolster US Energy leadership enhance energy security and create domestic Jobs first create a national interest account to consider the geostrategic value of Investments second expand the China and transformational
▶ 0:38:12exports program to include broader Technologies third increase the default cap rate for nuclear projects fourth reinforce the US jobs mandate fifth bolster domestic manufacturing and overall modernize the banks mission I would be remiss if I didn't mention DF DFCS reauthorization this year created during the first Trump Administration to counter China's belon Road initiative DFC has established itself as an effective tool in countering China for example and now supports nuclear
▶ 0:38:43projects after removing its nuclear moratorium in 2020 the World Bank also plays a critical role but its outdated policies have left a gap that China has eagerly exploited particularly it self-imposed restrictions on financing nuclear power in order to achieve energy dominance the government must provide a predictable environment for developers to attract private investment the work of this committee will be critical to providing stability for companies seeking to raise capital and compete globally in conclusion the US
▶ 0:39:13must build domestically and sell globally to compete with China meeting growing energy demand and strengthening Global energy leadership requires bold action and finally Congress has a unique opportunity to strengthen American solutions by modernizing export and development financing to support nuclear LG geothermal and other Technologies I look forward to today's discussion thank you gentleman y's back Mr casara you recognize for five minutes good morning
▶ 0:39:44chairman Hill ranking member Waters and distinguished members of the financial services committee it's an honor for me to testify communist China is an ideological military economic commercial Hightech intelligence and diplomatic rival of the United States in the west the People's Republic of China has a growing exploitative presence in the World while these threats are known the Chinese Communist party's involvement
▶ 0:40:14in transnational crime and money laundering is generally not recognized understood investigated my most recent book is China specified on law awul activities CCP Inc transnational crime and moneya laundering I found in writing that book the criminal activity has seemingly come part of the ccp's overall strategy to grow its power regarding fentanyl
▶ 0:40:45the Mexican cartels are still dependent on Chinese precursor chemicals and Manufacturing expertise Fentanyl and Fentanyl lace products are smuggled into the United States in calendar year 2023 alone the DEA seized more than 77 million fentanyl pills and nearly 12,000 pounds of powder this is the most fentanyl the DEA has ever seized in a single year and more than enough
▶ 0:41:15to kill every single American as it is in 2023 more than 117,000 Americans lost their lives to drug overdo with 70% of those death attributed to opioids such as fentanyl each death is a tragedy each individual that died has a story families and communities are devastated The Scourge affects everyone of the members districts and our
▶ 0:41:45country as a whole but of course it all comes back to the money fanol production generates enormous proceeds and Chinese are becoming the money launderers of choice for the cartels they leverage an underground banking system that has large long served China's immigrant diaspora they have developed other Chinese Centric moneya laundering methodologies that enable the laundering of their illicit proceeds not only in the United States but around the
▶ 0:42:15world in my written statement I give an overview of some of the most pernicious enablers as they relate to fentanyl trafficking such as trade-based money laundering black market exchange changes underground Financial systems like f Chen or flying money and mirror swaps that are facilitated by Chinese mobile phone apps while my testimony focuses on us efforts to counter illicit fentanyl trafficking and money laundering I urge that we do not
▶ 0:42:46look at the fentol issue in a vacuum or is an isolated concern the ccp's business model that fuels the fentanyl crisis is also active in many other sectors of crime including counterfeit Goods intellectual property theft human trafficking illicit tobacco and trade fraud in fact data indicates that China leads the world in 11 of the 12 largest categories of transnational
▶ 0:43:17crime each of these categories are also specified unlawful activities or predicate offenses to charge money laundering CC c p inc's involvement in these crimes is approximately $2 trillion a year to put that in perspective 2 trillion is very roughly half the estimated 4 trillion that is laundered annually around the world I call corruption the great enabler for money laundering CCP
▶ 0:43:47Inc has taken their domestic corruption and exported it overseas they excel in so-called influence operations which is a major reason for the lack of focus on CCP inks criminality and moneya laundering once again these specified unlawful activities methodologies and enablers cannot be viewed in isolation rather they are intertwined and must be collectively CCP international law breaking makes them
▶ 0:44:17exposed it makes them vulnerable I conclude my written testimony with recommendations that emphasize law enforcement and more effectively following the money and value Trails thank you very much gentleman Ys back Mr mu Eisen you're recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman ranking member borders members of the committee thank you for inviting me today my name is Martin mu Eisen before joining the Atlantic council's geoeconomic Center
▶ 0:44:48I retired from the international monetary Fund in 20121 having served as chief of staff and director for strategy policy and review among others the following are my personal views not those of the Atlantic Council or any organization on the topic of multilateral Institutions I would like to focus on three recommendations First China should be held responsible for its bad lending decisions Chinese loans have contributed to Rising debt vulnerabilities in
▶ 0:45:18low-income countries in several cases their unsustainable debt put a hold on new loans by multilateral lenders the speed of dead workouts has picked up in recent years but China remains unwilling to provide haircuts to restore solvency when needed the United States should encourage the IMF to make full use of its debt policies when countries need deeper debt restructuring for example under certain conditions The imf's
▶ 0:45:49Lending into official areas policy allows programs to proceed even if a country is in default to another IMF member a more robust application of this policy could strengthen the negotiation position of DEA countries eliciting more ambitious debt relief from China second focus on quality not quantity of multilateral programs the World Bank and other development banks have
▶ 0:46:19been leveraging their Capital base to increase lending to low-income countries who also benefited from a $650 billion issue of IMF special drawing rights these efforts are intended to meet large financing needs of poorer countries often with relatively little conditionality higher debt to multilateral institutions however can drive out private lenders resulting in the end in higher dependence on China
▶ 0:46:49to attract private Capital the institution's main focus should therefore be on raising country's long-term growth prospects including through loan conditionality but stepped up lending by multilateral organizations alone will not win the struggle for hearts and Minds in the global South the United States should work with multilateral lenders to incentivize needed reforms if multilateral programs were flanked by co-financing investment funds
▶ 0:47:19specific trade preferences or private Capital they would have a larger chance succeeding especially in Africa and Southeast Asia with their growing populations this could unlock important markets for US exports in the third protect the dominant role of the dollar large Emerging Markets have exibited a remarkable degree of economic stability in recent years countries among this group are
▶ 0:47:49still vulnerable to external shocks however in case of a severe crisis some may need need access to US dollar sources to avoid sharp devaluations and their financing needs could be large in this case the IMF could deploy its lending capacity its full lending capacity of around $1 trillion to avoid contagion and preserve Global Financial stability this amount leverages the United States contribution to the IMF
▶ 0:48:20by a factor of more than 5 to1 in the absence of the safety net countries would either have to acquire additional foreign exchange reserves putting upward pressure on the US dollar or they would need to seek help from China which could become a factor in undermining US dollar dominance over the term it would therefore be in the US interest if Congress ratified the increase in IMF quotas agreed last year
▶ 0:48:50which would provide a stronger Capital cushion and make loans available at short notice if needed thank you Mr CH gentleman Ys back Mr DOI you recognized for five minutes chairman Hill ranking member Waters distinguished members of the committee thank you very much for the opportunity to testify at today's hearing I'll Focus my remarks on four questions related to China first what are beijing's economic and Technology Ambitions second what is its strategy to achieve them third
▶ 0:49:20how is its strategy working and finally what should we do about it so first what are beijing's Ambitions the PRC has has a grand strategy to displace us Le order it seeks to catch up and surpass the US technologically to reduce dependence on others while increasing their dependence on China economically and to acquire the capability to defeat US forces militarily Beijing believes economic and Technology competition is about power not Prosperity it believes there have been four industrial revolutions that determined the fate of Nations the first was steam
▶ 0:49:50power which led to British dominance the second and third were electrification and mass manufacturing which which led to American dominance and now we're in the fourth AI Quantum Computing smart manufacturing biotechnology which China aims to Win Second what is beijing's economic and Technology strategy there are three parts first Beijing acquires technology it buys foreign companies to get it or it forces them to transfer it at Exchange in exchange for Market access or it steals it outright through human intelligence and cyber Espionage
▶ 0:50:21second Beijing protects its companies it uses tariffs non-tariff barriers and exchange rate manipulation to keep out foreign competition third Beijing Wheels industrial policy it uses massive industry support subsidies tax breaks R&D support cheap credit State investment so that its companies can undercut rivals on price taken together PC companies will lose money in their home Market they'll lose money in foreign markets but they'll use that to win both their home and foreign markets and eventually they know they can stay solvent longer than foreign Rivals that
▶ 0:50:52don't have similar State backing dominance in one sector then helps them climb the ladder to the next rung the scale of China's industrial policy efforts is breathtaking Beijing likely stole more than a trillion dollars worth of us intellectual property its industrial support is about 2% of the PRC economy every year that's a conservative estimate but it's more than any other country around the world it's twice as much as us support it's probably about $400 billion a year and that's more in comparison to the chips and science act which is about 50 billion over multiple years so third
▶ 0:51:22is this strategy working in short yes in the last two decades after China joined the WTO the US share of global manufacturing fell by half from 30% to 15% that so-called China shock cost millions of jobs and shuttered thousands of factories meanwhile in the exact same period China's share of global manufacturing quintupled from 6% to 30% China is a manufacturing superpower its capacity exceeds that of the next nine countries combined and it can leverage that manufacturing
▶ 0:51:53dominance to innovate and to gain military advantage take Innovation China is at the Leading Edge of feels like robotics Ai and Quantum Computing it leads the US in high impact patents and scientific papers it accounts for half of all industrial robot installations worldwide 60% of all global electric vehicle production 75% of global battery production and over 90% of solar panel Rare Earth and antibiotic production then take the military competition the PC has 200 times the ship building capacity
▶ 0:52:23of the United States and is leading in new technologies like hypersonics now beijing's economy has problems it's slowing its population is aging but we shouldn't feel confident Beijing is pouring money into industry and exports Define growth and that strategy is causing a second China shock that's de-industrializing economies around the world including our own so fourth and finally what do we do about it well first we can't go It Alone China surpasses the US on some industrial metrics but the US combined with its allies and partners has three times China's
▶ 0:52:53GDP half of all Global Manufacturing more than twice China's likely military spending twice China's patents and top sided Publications and massive Market power if we pull our markets protect our technology coordinate our research and create defensive barriers to PRC excess capacity we can handily weather the second China shock and reindustrialize and lead in technology second we need new institutions the us could benefit from a federal industrial Investment Bank that can make long-term loans take equity and strategic Industries and most importantly
▶ 0:53:23coordinate with private Capital that could allow us also fund reshoring from China to the US or to Allied countries third we need to change incentives China can play the long game while our companies focus on quarterly earning Cycles we can consider tax policies to change that we also need to invest more in basic science research where China outspends the United States now and finally we have to play defense that involves calibrated tariffs to protect our industry from excess capacity from China it requires stronger export controls research protection and regulation of inbound and outbound investment to maintain our lead
▶ 0:53:54the US has never faced an adversary quite as formidable technologically and industrially as China but we have everything that we need to succeed we just have to make different choices in some cases I want to thank you for your time and I look forward to your questions thank you sir gentleman Ys back the chair recognizes Mrs batty the ranking member of the National Security elicit finance and international financial institution subcommittee for minute thank you Mr chairman first let me say I'd like to Echo ranking member wat's comments and note the incredible irony of us holding this
▶ 0:54:24hearing while team Trump musk are presiding it is um and they are demolishing the United States leadership on the international stage the White House and Doge are illegally deleting entire agencies in violation of the Constitution siding with adversaries calling our allies dictators and abruptly and ruthlessly resending us Aid that Fosters Global Goodwill
▶ 0:54:54and Advance our security goals all which is unquestionably allows China to fill the void and hands them the prize of Go Global Leadership on a silver platter all while colleagues across the AIS have a long record in Congress of loudly supporting soft Powers initiatives like us Aid and assistance for Ukraine are stunningly silent now this is Unthinkable and I yield back
▶ 0:55:25gentlewoman yields back chair recognizes himself for five minutes of questions um Mr uh BL Eis the IMF uh last major report on China comes from 2024 on their economy and it reads like it's a parallel universe to me the report says quote directors meaning uh IMF directors positively noted that China is a key player in addressing Global challenges
▶ 0:55:55and welcomed its constructive role in supporting sovereign debt restructuring in lowincome and vulnerable countries and tackling the global climate crisis that's a quote from the report they also emphasize China's important role in strengthening multilateral trading system in close cooperation with partners that sounds Preposterous to me Mr M mulen what what's your view on
▶ 0:56:30thank you Mr chairman I think and I'm not speaking for my colleagues I want to just emphasize that for my former colleagues um I think that the staff report wanted to point out that China did make some progress on the debt restructuring issue um there has been improvements as I mentioned earlier because China is participating under the uh G20 comment framework work for that restructuring and some country cases have been
▶ 0:57:03um but you wouldn't argue that the common framework has been successful you it has been a difficult effort to get China to contribute it is not like the Paris Club but it has some of the same principles shouldn't China belong to the Paris Club shouldn't they participate in the Paris Club I would I would welcome if they did um wouldn't that make all this a lot easier we wouldn't have to have a madeup framework like the common framework from the G20 I think I pointed out in my statement
▶ 0:57:33that I think there are still shortcomings in the way China does handle its uh loans to troubled um countries and I would agree that having them in the Paris Club would um make them play with the rules that are well established and functioning um but obviously this is China's own decision I think at some point they considered it but it was then rejected within China yeah I agree with you I think it it was a mistake and I think the IMF and the IMF members should put more pressure on China
▶ 0:58:03to participate through the Paris Club what should the IMF be doing now as it relates to this past four years of effort that really hasn't been very successful as I mentioned I think the only real tool that the IMF has is the um lending into official areas policy do they have the right information from the countries they're trying to into if the terms that China has are not transparent and are not disclosed um
▶ 0:58:33there has been some improvement in disclosure but again I don't want to put the hand my hand in the fire and say that everybody knows exactly what Chinese is China is doing in um member um that Improvement has helped um especially bring private cators on board because now there's more Level Playing Field now people understand more what the uh mass of loans is and how to negotiate that restructuring but there's still a lot
▶ 0:59:04a long way to go thank you McMurray I was pleased to be sponsoring in this Congress a bipartison bill with Mr Torres of New York that would support nuclear energy financing through the World Bank and the European bank for reconstruction and development this legislation would not only help lift the world bank's prohibition on same financing but it would Kickstart a trust fund to add in the assistance that you referenced in your good testimony I'd like to certainly record two articles I've written on the importance on nuclear financing
▶ 0:59:34Bill back nuclear from uh 2021 and uh our Energy Future from January 2025 without objection they'll be added to the record uh Mr McMurray can you help us understand while funding for nuclear and other energy project is so critical in countering China's influence in the world yeah thank you chairman and thank you for your leaders ship on this issue um China is actively building you know almost 30 nuclear reactors today poising them to prepare to export and
▶ 1:00:05build their Technologies elsewhere the World Bank has a really important role to fund large Global infrastructure projects so by them not supporting nuclear that limits the effectiveness of the World Bank and seeds that leadership to China you know as you mentioned the trust fund is actually an excellent tool for the World Bank to do two things one one build that internal expertise so it can start educating its own staff as well as its members and then two lay out some of those early stage projects so
▶ 1:00:35ultimately entities like the XM Bank can start funding and support additional projects globally thank you very much my time's expired I now yield to the ranking member of the full committee for five minutes thank you very much Mr chairman um Mr Doshi in the Caribbean Nations increasingly disillusioned by the United unpredictability are turning to what is known as bricks that's Brazil Russia India China South Africa uh
▶ 1:01:05including of course uh both in a very very real way China and Russia for investment and financial support China's belt and Road initiative have brought Investments to the region from ports and energy resources to hotels and highways although often with predatory loan Arrangements in light of these developments what strategic actions should the United States take to counterbalance China's growing
▶ 1:01:35influence and provide a more reliable attractive alternative for Caribbean Nations and other regions uh I just want you to know that when any of us uh participate in activities with our Caribbean countries that's all we hear what are you guys doing can't you help us to avoid a what China is doing in the Caribbean what do you know about this well thank you very much rank Comm Waters let me just say this is a very important issue every great power adversary the
▶ 1:02:05US has ever faced has wanted a role in the Caribbean whether that was Germany and even the first world war but especially the second or the Soviet Union in the Cold War and China's no different they also want to role in the Caribbean because they know it's a weak spot for us potentially they know about our alliance on the Panama Canal so the history here shows that China will want to be involved and if you look at their own statements you know it um I would add a few things China's involvement picked up really in the early 2000s they've accelerated their involvement in recent years and as you correctly noted they are focused on a whole of
▶ 1:02:35government approach in the Caribbean that means military assistance in some cases to Caribbean countries that means law enforcement and Military assistance it also means investment significant investment in Jamaica investment in Port infrastructure including the operation of ports in the Caribbean and so they're there they're present and in many ways their economic relationship is growing rapid rapidly tourism is another component what do we do about it there are a few things first a little bit of uh support from us goes a long way these are not large economies taken together the entire GDP
▶ 1:03:05of the region is about the GDP of Kansas maybe a little bit less so we can do more by being present and by increasing our Aid activity second Caribbean countries as you know well want commercial engagement with the United States we should find ways to make it easier whether that's through exm DFC or other institutions for our businesses to be involved in the Caribbean but finally we should remember that we have an AS Advantage those countries as you noted they want to be with us not with China and they're not happy about the corruption that China sometimes brings to their economies so transparency and sunlight is the best disinfectant
▶ 1:03:36we should fight in the information space so people know that we stand for anti-corruption and that the Chinese stand for corruption finally uh we have to worry about the military role that China is building there and we should make sure that our Department of Defense is doing everything it can to strengthen military diplomacy with our friends thank you very much um in speaking about what more we can do some of our Caribbean island States um do not receive foreign aid uh because they say
▶ 1:04:06they don't they're a little bit they make a little bit too much money but you know they're hit with storms and they're in great debt as they try to um reconstruct and renovate and all of that is this an area uh that we could help them in uh because of the debt uh that is incurred with all of these uh um Mother Nature events well thank you very very much ranking member Waters you brought an important point up which is debt many of these countries are heavily indebted to China increasingly
▶ 1:04:36indebted Jamaica is another good example of that in many cases suram is another recent example in many cases they can't pay back the debt so that's a problem and it speaks to the previous discussion earlier about China's non-participation in the Paris Club but I would just add that yes storm relief we can do more there and finally very quickly um we might want to consider changing the thresholds for aid for some of these countries so that we can make sure we can be more useful to them thank you very much and quickly uh do we have a security problem with China getting so much
▶ 1:05:07U you know influence in the Caribbean and being so close to us should we be concerned about that uh we should in my opinion um it somewhat compromises some of the activities that we undertake in the Caribbean we have uh southcom operations and others that are worried about this but in particular I'd note just two things first that the PRC operat out of Cuba a number of sensitive uh sites and we should worry about those and their ability to collect on our operations in the Caribbean and second I would also add to that that the prc's ownership of Port op uh infrastructure
▶ 1:05:37in the region including around the Panama Canal can pose security threats as the Trump Administration and the B Administration have identified thank you and I yield back Jan y's back gentlemen from gentleman from Michigan the vice chairman of the full committee Mr heis is recognized for five minutes uh Hey everybody um I I want want to get to IMF reform and and some things but Mr uh Doshi I I want to uh very very quickly hit on this because I learned a new uh phrase recently which is the
▶ 1:06:07live flat generation uh in uh in in China and my question is can China survive economically from the downturn that they are seeing and it seems to me as as a child of the Cold War uh in that era you we the difference between our space race and the Cold War race that we had with Russia is they had a much smaller economy so I'm very curious very quickly your your view on China with that uh thank you Congressman it's a very important question of and very quickly I would say that yes they can survive we have generally underestimated
▶ 1:06:37China's ability to compete but very importantly China has scale and every Rising power that has scale DS to do pretty well the Soviets did not have the scale China does I'm happy to go into more detail okay all right um uh Mr mu heisen um I want to turn to you about uh your your work at IMF and your views from the IMF not necessarily your uh your your particular work there but according to the Wilson Center 80% of China's government supported loans are to countries that are in some sort of debt stress um
▶ 1:07:08the IMF has failed to convince China to work on restricting this debt which some estimate in excess of a trillion dollars to me uh having worked with IMF and World Bank and others in uh over the years uh I would argue it seems to be a strategy not a coincidence that often times they are lending into these countries that uh that have a debt strain uh and then they are then utilizing the uh the the loan documents
▶ 1:07:38and the uh uh the profile of that to then flip that into an asset that they either control or own um so my question is is what role should these IES play here should they simply just back away from countries with thatb uh sustainability is unclear thank you Congressman um I would put it this way um I don't see China engaging in some kind of debt trap if that's what you meant uh where they ENT trp countries so
▶ 1:08:09um that they I think I think a cleare eyed look at what's happening in in Africa and the rest of Asia would contradict that what what I would rather look how I would rather look at it is that they're getting a lot of uh benefits out of that engagement um what they do is of course they they have these trade relations also with countries they so are you saying that they're just they're will they have a higher risk profile than than the rest of the world does to some extent I think China was not even aware of the risks they got into
▶ 1:08:39and I could speak to that in a second but what I meant is um the Strategic Advantage is they're getting access to Ports yes access to other facilities including in Latin America and other places exactly Caribbean that that is I think the the main benefit it's not like they would kind of own then a port that a country has to hand over because they can't pay their debt um staying with you in your testimony you mentioned that the United States should insist on quote and quote quote improve transparency at the IMF um and
▶ 1:09:09I I'm also curious what can the US Treasury do to encourage the IMF to adopt a more for forceful approach including that transparency so I didn't mean to say that the um us should push the IMF to make to to be more transparent it's actually the debt transparency of China that needs yes I understand that but the IMF is the tool for that correct yeah so I myself so is the IMF doing enough to push that transparency and to push CH a country like China
▶ 1:09:40to give that transparency I've myself worked with Chinese officials in my former capacity to help them understand how much actually countries are owed uh own owed to China because within China there there there facility as lenders of all these different institutions that are lending are kind of not as far developed as we in the west would would would have it they're not they're not uh kind of set up to do that they're only slowly getting into the business of
▶ 1:10:10lending I've got 45 seconds I I think the Chinese are far better business people than what you seem to be implying but um uh the latest shareholder review at the IMF did not increase China's voting power they were pushing to do so uh what conditions should the IMF in insist on if the future if China lobbies for more shares would be a question but I'm going to actually get that in writing because I do have to hit this uh Mr chairman uh I previously introduced a bill the IMF reform and integrity act that would prevent any shareholder increase at the IMF
▶ 1:10:40for a country such as the PRC that does not meet basic obligations codified in the organization's articles of agreement so I believe and this goes back to my time working with Madame lagard when she was there uh the IMF needs to get tougher and Tighter about enforcing its own rules so I'd like to include a submit a copy of my bill to the without objection chairman thank you I yield back J Ys back uh the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from New York the ranking member on the small business committee Miss Basquez for five minutes thank
▶ 1:11:10you Mr chairman let me start off by saying that I am glad we're having this hearing discussing the rising threat of China but holding this hearing is not enough if we want to talk about countering China then we need to be discussing how president Trump and his unelected president Elon Musk are the biggest threat to the United States encountering China president Trump has abandoned our closest
▶ 1:11:40allies in favor of cing up to dictators illegally closed down us Aid and C off and cutting off a for needing Nations destroyed our national security apparat and install conspiracy theorists like Kash Patel at the top levels of our government dismantling this institution that have helped keep our nation and the world safe since World War
▶ 1:12:10II open the door for China countries across Africa and Latin America are turning to China for financing and Leadership a geopolitical move China is facilitating an exploiting Mr casera by hollowing out the government through illegal firings and layoffs Elon Musk and Doge are making Americans less safe from Financial scams coming from China and encouraging
▶ 1:12:41corruption both home and abroad an article printed in the Wall Street Journal not exactly a Bastion of liberal media last week describes how illegal proceeds from fentol sales are being laundered through China for reinvestment in real estate and other vehicles here in the United State the proceeds and flow of illegal fentel from China is an issue members on both sides of the a
▶ 1:13:11care about how can Congress bolster current BSA AML statutes to reduce the reinvestment of illegal fentol proceeds here in the US thank you for the question regarding uh BSA Bank secrecy act Financial intelligence reporting requirements I think one of the best things that could happen to um to counteract some of the issues that
▶ 1:13:41you've developing is for real estate agents for example to um uh not no longer be Exempted from uh kyc know your customer reporting requirements and to follow suspicious activity reports I think something else needs to be done that is more efficient utilization of suspicious activity reports in general which is going to require uh additional Personnel it's going to require technology and most importantly it's
▶ 1:14:11going to require um additional resources on the ground for agents to work cases and uh wouldn't you agree that to reduce the laundering of money from Chinese Fant sales we're going to need to continue to crack down on Anonymous shell companies here in the US absolutely um in moneya laundering there are three stages of moneya laundering placement layering and integration shell companies
▶ 1:14:42uh uh llc's Delaware Corporations whatever you want to call them are one of the Premier um tools of Choice by money launders in the layering stage of money laundering it makes it very very difficult for criminal investigators to follow the money Trail same thing with in the integration stage once the money is layered and integrated into the economy we don't know who owns that shopping center who owns that
▶ 1:15:12yacht who owns that property we need beneficial ownership information thank you for that answer uh Dr DOI how important is it for both the US and Allied Nation to adopt and enforce transparency measures like beneficial ownership Registries and anti-corruption laws to prevent Bad actors from abusing our financial system well thank you congresswoman I think it's incredibly important every step that we want to take whether on law
▶ 1:15:42enforcement with anti-money laundering or with export controls or with investment restrictions all of those steps are going to require knowing the you know knowing essentially The Beneficial owner uh if we don't have that then the PRC can always set up shell companies and get around our restrictions and they've been doing that so I think it's it's indispensable to our competitiveness agenda thank you I back Goman Ys back the gentleman from Oklahoma Mr Lucas the chair of the task force on monetary policies recognized for five minutes thank you for holding this hearing Mr chairman
▶ 1:16:13and thank you to our Witnesses for testifying today as the former chairman of the science committee and representing an energy dominant state I'm particularly sensitive to how China weaponizes energy as a geopolitical tool the United States must continue to prioritize targeted investments in clean reliable and affordable nuclear energy which will contribute to an enhanced energy security geopolitical stability and Emissions reductions Mr McMurray can you touch on why maintaining us leadership in energy
▶ 1:16:43production is so critical to countering China in energy security uh National issues yeah thank you congressman and thank you for your leadership on clean energy Innovation especially as chair former chair of SST um China is actively building projects and right now countries around the world want and need more energy for either energy access or as they're just having more manufacturing or as they're growing
▶ 1:17:13and so they're going to look at whatever options are cheap and available and right now in many cases that is China and so the US has to look at how do how does the government support private companies which are developing all sorts of Innovative Technologies such as nuclear energy to be able to make it easier to compete on an unlevel playing field um some of the best tools are XM and DFC to kind of help with that financing piece but ultimately we have to be able to make these Technologies here and build them here and that requires
▶ 1:17:43you know support from the Department of energy and the National Labs so we can demonstrate these Technologies so we can ultimately sell them thank you authorities at the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics have a identified transnational criminals that are moving illicit drugs on the black market and laundering money in China Mr kazara how can Congress address the financial streams that are the foundation of this illegal activity so we can cut off this very sophisticated
▶ 1:18:17Enterprises and I know it's a complex question it's a complex question but I I think to get to the heart of the matter I think we've made a mistake over the last so many years our enforcement agencies have been putting emphasis on what I call the product for example drugs and the people meaning like drug kingpins and those involved with it I think what we've been missing is to tr really truly finally go after the money because all of these organizations are motivated
▶ 1:18:47by greed avarice and the way to hurt these individuals these organizations Better Than Anything is to identify their assets and take them away the reason we haven't been doing this is because going after the money is hard enforcement agencies are statistic driven metric driven they want they want measurements of success instead of going after a meaningful long-term complex moneya laundering investigations
▶ 1:19:17that make take two years or more um they are they are content to go after these Quicky little buy bus cases that don't really don't make any difference we have to change the um the incentives for law enforcement play chess not Checkers yes turning back to the XM bank for a moment Mr McMurray in the most recent re authorization of XM Congress built the China transformational exports program or ctip that program Reserves at least 20% of xm's authority
▶ 1:19:47to neutralize China's export subsidiaries subsidies how can you how can we improve on that program and scap it up to match their actions thank you Congressman CP has been an excellent tool to compete with the very competitive financing that China is able to offer um right now CP focuses on only a certain subset of Technologies one of the best ways to increase the competitiveness of us companies is to expand that um for example including nuclear energy
▶ 1:20:17as part of you know cp's um mandate I would also want to just mention DFC was also created under the first Trump administ ation directly as a counter to China's belt and Road and there is an opportunity as well to strengthen DFC um to make us companies again more competitive I just want to Simply note in my closing comments we cannot afford to get caught flat-footed on the issues we're discussing today and outc competing China in export markets financing energy Investments must be a top priority and I'm thankful to the
▶ 1:20:48chairman for focusing on this in our hearing today and I yield back Mr chairman Lucas yields back the gentan from California Mr Sherman the ranking member on our Capital Market subcommittee is recognized for 5 minutes thank you Mr chairman some of our Witnesses seem to be here advocating what they advocate in any other committee they wasn't even talking about China if you're paid to convince Congress to let you drill for oil in Yellowstone National Park you can then come to a hearing on China and say well that's the
▶ 1:21:18way to take care of China um Mr chairman thank you for focusing on the importance of the US's World Reserve currency and we should remember that the announced purpose of crypto is to partially displace the US dollar and there is a bill in the Senate to make crypto the reserve currency of dollar and uh I think you understand how important it is that nothing
▶ 1:21:48displace the dollar as the world's Reserve currency uh likewise I think it was uh Mr uh uh Mr Cassandra who uh focused on money laundering uh crypto is advocated by its own supporters as a way to do massive transactions or large transactions out of the view of the US government and that's perhaps why 100% of the ransomware attacks in recent years have demand payment
▶ 1:22:18in crypto crypto uh Mr mson uh I'd like I hear hear what you say about China debt um too many small countries are being told well you borrowed China's money so you have to uh give us your Port what we need to do is say to every lender and every credit rating agency that when China makes an unfair loan and you don't repay that can't be used against the
▶ 1:22:48country's credit rating so that countries who fac in this circumstance will instead of giving China their port they can give China their middle finger and still borrow from American corporations Banks and international lending institutions we've made some unforced uh errors one of those as the Wall Street Journal points out is we should be focused on China and instead we go to economic war with Canada and Mexico second uh we have
▶ 1:23:18cut Aid in some to Tiny countries in the Pacific to the Cook Islands to Solomon Islands to Tanga where we just have million dooll programs these are the islands where my father's friends gave their blood in the last war in the Pacific and now we're turning over control of those islands to China for a few million to save a few million dollars the original sin was giving China most favored nation status before
▶ 1:23:48then their economy was Tiny the majority the vast majority of Democrats voted against that and we stood up to our own president and I turned to my Republican colleagues and say perhaps your proudest moment this year will be when you stand up to one of to a Republican president uh in capital flows it's nice to say well we shouldn't send any Capital to uh to China keep in mind because of that huge trade deficit which I might add was much bigger under Trump
▶ 1:24:18than it was under Biden and was big even bigger still in the pre uh Co years of trump so Trump had gave us the worst trade deficit in history Visa China uh but we are we we are dependent for over a trillion and a half dollars of investment in our debt instruments on China but we've got to look at Equity flows so believe it or not uh right now subsidize Americans who invest in Chinese stocks we do through do
▶ 1:24:48so through our tax system and the capital gains allowance I'm going to ask all Witnesses here please raise your hand if you believe that we should provide subsidies to Americans who choose to invest in Chinese stocks let the record show no hand went up and yet I have great difficulty I've only gotten one Republican co-sponsor for the bill that I'm going to reintroduce I hope all of you join me in co-sponsoring this to say no capital gains allowance for investment in Chinese stocks now
▶ 1:25:19I know that offends the billionaire class but you cannot go uh you cannot stand stand up to China if you're unwilling to offend the billionaire class um uh Mr DOI I'm I'm not able to Reas your uh uh sign so well so I may have mispronounced your name are there unique um risks for Americans when they invest in Chinese stocks such as appropriation that should be part of the disclosures they get from the SEC
▶ 1:25:50uh thank you Congressman I think that there are significant risks I'm not sure that we have I mean that that market itself uh is highly volatile unpredictable there's no adequate auditing of these companies our due diligence firms the the auditing Senator Kennedy and I did something about but there's everything else gentleman's time expired gentlemen from Texas Mr sessions recognized for five minutes Mr chairman thank you very much delighted we're having this hearing today I think that the panel is well uh
▶ 1:26:20positioned to provide a lot of information to us Mr McMurray I want want to go directly to your testimony in and we're talking about China China currently has 57 nuclear reactors and operation and 28 reactors under construction United States has 94 reactors none currently uh evidently on on the books to replace them what is the major reason why we cannot
▶ 1:26:51build of economic uh uh the the the the funding that's necessary for these is is the market not robust is there not an understanding it what what is the reason why America would not be building at least one or two yeah thank you Congressman um China over the last several years has made a concentrated you know focus on building new nuclear and that is played out in the number of reactors under construction
▶ 1:27:21I would say the US has also done that there has been significant bipartisan policy for the past several years focused along every step to build new nuclear whether it's um demonstrating early Technologies developing the fuel supply chain providing tax credits improving the regulatory framework Congress has really focused on this for the last several years but the market has not gathered itself together to to take advantage of this so today there are
▶ 1:27:51several projects that are very close to breaking ground there are two research reactors that are under construction there are several reactors through the department of Energy's Advanced reactor demonstration program that are also nearing construction as well as several private companies that are also looking to build so the they're trying to go to next genin they're waiting for the newest research and development there is an in there is an interest in all sorts of Technologies after the Vogal plants came online in Georgia pairing that with the projected demand
▶ 1:28:21increases for electricity in the US there's also a renewed interest in large reactors as well and so it's important for policy and the market to kind of recognize all of these different technologies have a role to play domestically because there is also an interest in all of these Technologies internationally yeah well in Texas we have a lot of land but a lot of that land is being grabbed up 30 and 40,000 Acres at a time for solar panels taking then agricultural
▶ 1:28:52ability off that land land and we know as you alluded to we're going to double the amount of electricity that's necessary did is do you tell me about the proposed uh Trump tax cuts will that provide more Capital available for these kinds of projects to where they don't have to come to the federal government so focus on Texas for a moment there's been a lot of great work out of the state to build new nuclear
▶ 1:29:22in through including through the governor directing the Public Utilities Commission to figure out what state policies would help attract new nuclear I think on the federal level we've seen you know significant support going back to you know nuclear specific tax credits that have supported the vcal plants as well as existing policies that support the new technologies today and so I think Congress has the opportunity to continue continue that support and continue that Focus so it can provide certainty and predictability for the companies looking to build
▶ 1:29:54great well we need them because we cannot continue to grab 30 40 50,000 acres to meet the needs of not just the Electrical uh system electrical good system but we need it because we're going to grow exponentially and we've got that that issue well I want to thank you I I think that the you know if we're going to be a capitalist nation and want to grow and meet the demand for all this
▶ 1:30:24we need to move towards what I would call all of the above and that has to be a better Reliance upon what we're doing particular I want to thank you very much for being here today Mr chairman I yield back my time Gman yields back gentleman from New York Mr Meeks the ranking member on the house Foreign Affairs committee is recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and as Mr uh as the chairman have just indicated I now serve as the ranking member of the and the former chairman of the house forign Affairs committee
▶ 1:30:55and so when we are discussing the topic at hand I have to say I come here Gravely concerned about our great country China and Russia both nuclear armed permanent members of the UN Security Council have a vastly different vision of the world than we do at least that used to be the case the first month of the Trump Administration however has confirmed my worst
▶ 1:31:25fears that it is severely undermined American Global Leadership not just for the next four years but for decades to come just yesterday the United States along with a few other tinpot dictators Russia and Russian satellite States voted at the UN not to condemn Russia's aggressive unprovoked and unjustifiable Invasion into the Ukraine
▶ 1:31:55Mr Doshi just give me a yes or a no do you believe it's in our interest to stand with Russia over Ukraine stand with Ukraine and I would also ask you know just yesterday I dropped a resolution I would ask my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to join us on this resolution that b just basically says we are because this is the third year of Russia's ingra Invasion into Ukraine join us resolution all it says is that
▶ 1:32:26we condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine of which the UN tried to pass and we voted or the administration voted against Mr do let me ask you another question this time as you are an expert on China do you believe that China will read into our failure to stand up to Ukraine as it thinks about aggressive action against Taiwan or in the South Sea
▶ 1:32:56I'm always reluctant to say that credibility transfers like that in this case however everything I've ever learned about the Chinese Communist Party tells me two things first they're disproportionately focused on the US use of power that is if they think we're weakening they're more bold and number two if they think domestically we can't rise to the occasion against Russia they'll think we won't rise in defense of Taiwan so if we don't stand for Ukraine they will be emboldened in Taiwan in the Taiwan straight in the South China SE that is a strong belief that I have based on everything I've ever studied
▶ 1:33:26thank you for that and uh so you know what we have to do is let's review the record of our president and his positions on China back in 2017 he signed a deal to let ZTE Corporation off the hook despite their record of violating us sanctions which to this very day undermines telecommunication security around the globe in 2020 he repeatedly praised shei for the job he did regarding covid-19 instead of criticizing
▶ 1:33:57China's secretive response and failure to allow an impartial investigation into the origins of the Corona virus and since returning to office president president Trump allowed ticktock to continue to operate in the United States despite clear Congressional intent to the opposite effect second he has severely undermined economic trust in the United States among allies worldwide by aggressive ly threatening tariffs on our allies
▶ 1:34:28this includes tariff threats on semiconductors from our close Taiwanese partners he has allowed Elon Musk to decimate usaid which is the tip of the Spear of American soft power and goodwi around the RO the globe so Mr Doshi do you think it is in the United States interest to compete with China for commercial and soft power projects around the globe yes I do I do too Mr Miller do you
▶ 1:34:59agree yes absolutely it's in our interest to compete Mr McMurray do you agree yes we need to make sure we can compete and so now I'm hearing that the president wants to sign a big deal with China to get them to buy more of our Commodities while allowing the PRC to build up its military and undercut our workers all of this is encouraged by Elon Musk and others who have enormous business interest there so let me be clear I think we need to continue to trade with China
▶ 1:35:29and I'm not supportive of the trend of stoking xenophobia or undermining our economy just despite the PRC but the Chamberlain policy of appeasement coming out of the White House is about self-enrichment affinity for dictators not America's economic growth or national security and we should be competing with the PRC across the globe not shutting down agencies we should be cracking down on the China Russia no No Limits partnership not trying to join it now you back the gentleman's time has expired gentoman from
▶ 1:35:59Missouri Miss Wagner the chair of the subcommittee on Capital markets is recognized for five minutes I thank you Mr chairman uh for holding this vitally important uh hearing and I want to thank our Witnesses uh certainly for being here today back in my home state of Missouri it is estimated that three people lose their lives every single day from an overdose I've heard from countless constituents who tell me about a neighbor a friend or family
▶ 1:36:30member uh who lost their life due to an accidental overdose of fentanyl transnational criminal organizations many of them based in China make millions of dollars off the illegal production and trafficking of this deadly narcotic the CCP knows this and is allowing it to continue There are many different ways in which federal policy needs to be strengthened to combat this crisis but to quote the testimony of
▶ 1:37:00one of our previous Witnesses financing serves as the oxygen for criminal networks we must coordinate our government response to identify isolate and interdict the financing manufacturing and trafficking apparatus of Fentanyl and its precursors from China through Mexico and into our neighborhood hoods we must cut off the oxygen to these criminal networks uh Mr casara
▶ 1:37:30can you describe how Chinese entities exploit both the Chinese and American Financial systems to launder illicit funds gained through fentanyl trafficking being mind mindful of my time thank you for the question I think one of the primary ways they undermine um the Integrity of our financial system is because they use a lot of methodologies and enablers that are Chinese Centric and many of these are designed to bypass our financial transparency
▶ 1:38:01reporting requirements meaning they use things like trade-based money laundering underground Financial systems value transfers mobile phone apps these types of things that we are not set up to capture from our primarily moneya laundering counter measures Financial intelligence and in what ways is the Chinese government complicit in this illicit financing well as you said yourself China CCP is it's a command State they are aware of what they're doing they are aware of uh uh criminal
▶ 1:38:32uh Triads and criminal organizations uh committing crime and laundering money if they wanted to shut a lot of this stuff down they could nothing happens in China or for that matter with their diaspora without their permission and how does the United States government need to change or alter its current oversight or enforcement to ensure Chinese entities are not laundering funds in these illicit ways as you've outlined through American companies
▶ 1:39:02well there's a number of things that I put in my written statement as far as recommendations but if you're talking about for example underground Financial systems illegal or unregistered um Money remitter Services for example we need to do a much better job of enforcing the fact that these uh companies need to be registered with finsen and I think licensed in 49 of the 50 states we're not ensuring that that's done on on
▶ 1:39:32his first day in office president Trump issued an executive order to designate drug cartels as as foreign terrorist organizations uh Mr casara how will terrorist designations affect the flow of funds between China and drug cartels in Mexico I think we have to wait a little bit to see how this plays out but I think it will give the administration um and the executive branch including law enforcement and Intel and
▶ 1:40:02even even even our Diplomatic Corps uh more tools uh to uh to go after these organizations and and clearly that's the intention um does this designation impact any potential us intermediaries that the drug cartels used to launder funds I think it depends on the specifics but um I think this is focused on those cartel organizations if they use third parties or or or whatever see are there stronger steps
▶ 1:40:32sir that Congress can take to disrupt these Financial networks I would go back again some of the recommendations I put in my statement but I think we need to enhance and um prioritize law enforcement this is where they're most vulnerable but we're not making cases and there's a lot there's a number of reasons for this some of it were just not aware of it we don't have the tools most importantly law enforcement doesn't have the resources um I I um I thank you and hopefully we're going to
▶ 1:41:02be getting them the resources here soon uh to dig even deeper now that we've designated them as terrorist organizations uh my time's expired Mr chairman and I yield back gentoman yields back the gentleman from Georgia Mr Scott is recognized for five minutes ladies and gentlemen China is taking advantage of us they are looking at the United States now as weaker than
▶ 1:41:33ever reports now indicate an increase in efforts by Chinese hackers to infiltrate US Government networks and classified systems with backing directly from the Chinese government need I look at fin now that's destroying the very fabric of our nation our young people
▶ 1:42:04in record numbers it's almost like China has war on the United States and damn it we need to declare war back I hope this hearing will go far loud we are tired of China taking advantage of the United States our
▶ 1:42:34young people are too precious and as you know c c us recently experienced a ccpb cyber breach meant to undermine the committee's Integrity this is too significant a threat to our national security and economic security Jing or some of y'all may remember
▶ 1:43:04I said right here in this committee when we let the damn balloon go over there after uh China had taken all their data from our Farmland our food and from our sensitive areas our military bases and waited till they got over there off of B Myrtle Beach in the Atlantic Ocean then we shoot it down
▶ 1:43:35they take these things as a sign of weakness uh Mr Miller let me get to my course question here how effective has cus been at reviewing listen to me carefully China Chinese companies attempts to invest in businesses particularly involving infrastructure large
▶ 1:44:05amounts of personal data or sensitive Technologies thank you for the question Congressman um you know I think that the cfus um uh investment review regime uh you know has has been effective uh you know particularly in recent years um at at at making those types of reviews and you know particularly after cfus was revised
▶ 1:44:36um after the uh you know it via the Firma Bill let me just interrupt you just briefly on that I I've got to get to this other question I might took too long in first but earlier this month congressman Frank Lucas and I sent a letter to treasury secretary Scott biton signed by both Democrats and Republicans on this very committee urging him
▶ 1:45:06to take a stronger more proactive approach to EMB battling future cyber preachers um and I would like to insert the letter for uh for the record Mr chairman without objection and now our letter asked the secretary to give a firm commitment to cus would continue to move forward with longer review processes and detailed
▶ 1:45:36investigations of Chinese government linked Investments so how can treasury improve the parameters and oversights necessary in its uh service providers and refocus training to better identify potential Chinese cyber threats particularly those CS uh thank
▶ 1:46:06you for that as as well um you know we need to take all cyber threats uh very seriously and that means you know starting with getting full visibility of the of the networks including the networks at at at Treasure at treasury um you know monitoring systems you know as always using a a risk-based approach is is is really important and um you know also just using using the tools that we have
▶ 1:46:36the the basic risk management tools such as end to end encryption multiactor authentication uh and logging I mean it you know it sounds like a broken record because we say this all the time but we need chairman time expired I just want to end with this it's very important important that we understand China is targeting a food supply system the gentleman's time has expired and and our naal his closing remarks are so noted thank you gentleman from Kentucky
▶ 1:47:06Mr bar the chair of the subcommittee on financial institutions recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman um so last Friday Mr Miller uh president Donald Trump issued an executive order titled America First investment policy he also issued a national security policy memorandum in which he stated that we will adopt new rules to stop us companies from pouring investments into China stop China from buying up America and allowing at the same time all of those Investments
▶ 1:47:37that serve American interests seems to me this is exactly the right policy this is the America First policy it's the policy that says that Investments that help Advance our national and economic security should go forward green light and inv Investments That undermine our national security should not go for red light a red light Greenlight system and I appreciate that because it's common sense and this Congress has been focused on an outbound screening tool U
▶ 1:48:07and legislation over the past several years I introduced the Chinese military surveillance company sanctions act which was a sanctions entity-based approach uh and then we also introduced the coins act at the end of the last Congress working with the speakers office uh it was a bipartisan effort uh and a bicameral effort and we added an additional focus on specifically defined Technologies now what I have always said on this committee and on the select committee on the strategic competition
▶ 1:48:38with the Chinese Communist party is that our advantage is that we're capitalists and we allocate Capital effectively and efficiently their disadvantage is that they're Communists and they misallocate capital and this is perhaps why why uh chairman she's Crackdown has actually backfired on the Chinese economy uh and why uh us Venture Capital deals have fallen in China by 87% and by 2023 net foreign investment into China turned negative for the first
▶ 1:49:08time on record but it's also true that us Investments uh made in China still are valued at about $127 billion so I want you to to address specifically this this first comment you make in your in your written testimony Mr Miller that overly broad investment restrictions could actually decrease Economic Security and that policy makers should be mindful of the economic security value of outbound Investments explain that a little bit
▶ 1:49:38thank you for the question Congressman bar um yes if you know I I think that in in my experience anyway I mean companies absolutely want to and make their best efforts to comply with these regimes um but if the if if the scope is uh overly broad or it's not clear uh it's not clear and and defined as to what exactly the companies are supposed to be doing it it really does create um uh you know some headwinds there in terms of
▶ 1:50:09of of compliance I mean I think specifically um with respect to uh you know uh the the the outbound regime that you're that that you're talking about um you know all it's um well I think one thing that you said that I agree with is that um some outbound investment could provide insights into competitor activities and so not all outbound investment is bad I think Clarity is very very important that's
▶ 1:50:39why I talk about why the president's approach green light red light is the right approach and that's what we tried to do in our sanctions Bill sanctions do provide Clarity companies know how to comply with it uh and if properly defined in terms of these Technologies we can also provide private investors with um with Clarity there's also advantages of multilateralism with uh with a a sanctions approach but here's here's the next question in a post Chevron World and this is for anyone uh what
▶ 1:51:09is the benefit of having a statute that guides this policy consistent with executive order as opposed to just relying on the Biden executive order or the Trump executive order any one of you I mean I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll take that I mean yeah you know you're right in a in a CH post Chevron World you know under Loper brigh the onus really is on Congress to write these rules as clearly uh as possible so that there there there really is not it's not left to executive agency discretion uh which might be overturned
▶ 1:51:39by the courts well I think here's the bottom line of my remaining 30 30 seconds is the president's approach in his National Security memorandum and the executive order is exactly right it's America First it recognizes that some outbound investment actually is in the interest of our country some foreign direct investment is in the interest of our country but not all of it and so we need to provide Clarity and we need to do it through a statute consistent with the treasury Department's guidance here that's what we're going to be working on and
▶ 1:52:09we invite uh the expertise of the panel to work with us on that and uh we look forward to getting this policy exactly right that I yield gentleman's time has has uh expired the gentleman from Massachusetts Mr Lynch the ranking member of the subcommittee on digital assets Financial Technologies and artificial intelligence recognized for five minutes by the time you announce me I won't have time to speak that's a pretty long title uh thank you Mr chairman and uh I want to thank the ranking member this is a great hearing and and one that is both timely
▶ 1:52:40uh and import incredibly important I want to thank the witnesses uh for your very thoughtful testimony not always in agreement but but always thoughtful um so China has developed uh extensive cyber capabilities offensively uh over the past 10 years or so and and now I think is admittedly a world leader in uh vulnerability exploitation uh either directly or or through proxies uh the Chinese government's Targets in the US
▶ 1:53:10have included infrastructure our government agencies companies uh private organizations and and and and individuals as well uh they use tools and methods that bre international law uh these malicious acts can be aimed at control or just simply disruption uh and exposing vulnerabilities in our in our electrical grid and uh and critical infrastructure uh it also involves U economic Espionage and
▶ 1:53:40international property theft uh those are among the most concerning intr intrusions but most recently uh uh China had a a state-backed Chinese militia cyber group they hacked the US Treasury Department and they gained access to hundreds of work stations and uh sensitive but unclassified documents from the committee on uh foreign investments in the US cifas and the office
▶ 1:54:11of foreign asset control so with that backdrop we have right now uh Elon Musk who's got massive massive investments in China he's got this uh Giga Factory that produces uh you know two of his most popular cars there he's got billions and billions of dollars in investment in China he's get employees there uh he is now uh you know inside Treasury and uh has had at least for a while uh
▶ 1:54:41before the judge stopped him had access to uh United States Treasury uh payment systems and uh it it really worries me that he's got young kids in there who are you know I got a letter here from five treasury secretaries that are expressing concern that these individuals with no training uh and no ethics requirements and no security requirements are all inside treasury
▶ 1:55:12uh meanwhile they work for a guy that has billions of dollars of investments in China it just looks like you know a a bad bad situation uh Dr Doshi as he Elon Musk and Doge continue to have access to personal and payments data inside treasury along with you know sensitive information about what we are doing with defense contractors and other initiatives with sanctions um could they potentially open up holes in our security system and and make Americans
▶ 1:55:42uh financial information vulnerable to attacks from China uh thank you Congressman China is the most capable cyber actor the US faces and I think that there's a risk that uh efforts to kind of take data off government systems and put them perhaps even on private systems so they can be run through artificial intelligence will create additional vulnerabilities that China will be very happy to exploit what what are the uh what are the strongest measures we can take in terms of uh you know requiring
▶ 1:56:13the people who have access to that system uh maintain the the Integrity of of the financial system itself thank you congressman I think that there's a number of technical steps that have to be taken on the endend encryption side on securitization of security essentially for that that Equipment Technology the data but there's also a human element as well and I worry about Mass firings leading to Insider threats particularly of people with clearances should those individuals if they have access to any of that all go through a a a
▶ 1:56:43lengthy and and uh and robust uh security clearance process my personal view based on my time working in uh the NC is that more and more of US Government work in these sensitive areas should be moved to classified systems that doesn't mean it can't be democratically accountable but the unclassified systems are compromised whether at the state department treasury or the US trade rep which gives China insight into what we're doing in advantage in negotiation we should move that into a more secure system all right U Mr chairman that just about wraps up my time thank you I yield back
▶ 1:57:14gentleman yields back the gentleman from Texas uh Mr Williams chairman of the house small business committee recogniz for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and thank all of you for being here today today I appreciate it the lack of transparency into the Chinese economy is a large concern of mine and one of the world's largest creditors this lack of insight presents extreme risk to the United States economy and our national security this why introduced the China Financial threat mitigation act which my colleague representative gutenheimer and I have joined together and this is a bipartisan legislation
▶ 1:57:44it would require a study on the exposure of the US financial sector to risk from China reliable data is crucial for the United States government to accurately assess our financial exposure to the Chinese and through this we will be able to better protect the United States financial interest and our own National Security so Mr mulen how can the United States best hold China accountable for the lack of transparency in their financial system the IMF has certain tools uh like
▶ 1:58:14for example the U financial sector assessment programs and the like that look at whether member countries um live up to to standards um by the Basel committee for example among others but of course as a multilateral organization it has limits as far as it can go because it needs to look at these standards and um can only assess those that exist um so the the IMF as such um uh has no Direct Tools to um increase
▶ 1:58:44transparency but it can publish them their findings it can rely on peer pressure and shareholders in the IMF then um exert pressure on China to improve its policies thank you China has continuously exploited Global Supply change to advance their strategic Ambitions using economic coercion Force labor and predatory Trade Practices to dominate key Industries and this has created vulner vulnerabilities for the United States and puts American businesses and consumers at the mercy of the Chinese Communist Party
▶ 1:59:14policies in addition to their use of Global Supply chains the ccp's OPEC opaque lending practices and State subsidizing competition have undercut American manufacturers making it increasingly difficult for them to compete on a Level Playing Field so Mr Miller what specific policy should Congress pursue to counteract China's Str strangle hold on critical goods and Manufacturing and additionally how can we create a stronger incentive for American companies to diversify their supply chains and reduce dependence on China
▶ 1:59:45thanks very much much for the question Congressman um you know it's absolutely critical that um we focus on supply chain uh resiliency and and security uh you know and I think companies certainly in the technology sector for sometime have been working to uh increase supply chain diversity um you know it's we we we have to we have to be realistic that we have complex Global Supply chains right now um and it will not be an overnight
▶ 2:00:16process but you know uh moving uh certain parts of manufacturing and and supply to uh you know friends and allies as well as the United States uh is something that is already underway in the short time I have left throughout your career Mr casara you have investigated International money laundering networks and underground Financial systems that enable transitional crime transnational C crime so today we see Chinese Financial networks playing a key role in laundering fentol profits for Mexican cartels using a trade based
▶ 2:00:46money laundering and underground banking to move elicit funds while invading us authorities so given China's history of shielding these operations from uh scrutiny what steps should the US take to disrupt the these Financial channel uh channels and what is China's endgame do you believe in weaponizing fentanyl in the US thank you for the question regarding uh fentanyl I believe it is a form of asymmetric Warfare the Chinese are are
▶ 2:01:16employing against the United States uh maybe some of this goes back to uh you know uh the Opium Wars of a century so ago uh I think it's in effect it's retribution to answer your question about what can we do for underground Financial systems we could talk for a great uh length of time about this but I think one of the most important initiatives that we came up with a number of years ago are trade transparency units um basically having
▶ 2:01:46uh Customs information exchanged back and forth just like the egg group of financial intelligence units where we exchange Financial intelligence exchange Customs related information imports and exports to help look for anomalies in uh specific trade transactions over and under invoicing for example um this initiative has been stalled in my opinion one of the reasons it's been stalled is because Legacy Customs
▶ 2:02:18um has been short changed through an emphasis on immigration enforcement under Immigration and Customs Enforcement my time is up thank you for your testimony gent Tom has expired the gentleman from Missouri Mr Claver ranking member on the housing and insurance subcommittee is recognized for five minutes thank you Mr um couple of years ago I was in AIS in Ethiopia
▶ 2:02:48and um as I moved around uh the city um I was walking by building large Majestic building and uh the Ethiopian friends who were carrying me around uh said do you want to go in and I said sure we went in it was the uh Union uh building and as
▶ 2:03:18you walk into the building there's a sign about the G of this building to Ethiopia by the um when I went on down uh South to uh Tanzania or Tanzania where I have about 5075 family members uh actually uh our ranking members met uh some of my family members from Tanzania um all they could talk
▶ 2:03:48about was the money chin China was spending in uh tan Tanzania um the the Ambassador uh pointed by Bill Clinton uh Charles Stith Dr Charles Stith uh had really revved up everything in he could in in uh Tanzania to attract the attention of the United States because China was steadily investing in in Tanzania
▶ 2:04:19um and unfort fortunately as China was uh investing uh we were and uh if you go all the way through uh the the continent you'll see that China uh has created quite a relationship with the entire continent um Dr sth wrote a book called for such a time as this
▶ 2:04:49and I think that that book would would would would be contrary to what we've just seen uh with us Aid um so we can't take advantage of anything now uh China has had some failures um you know they they did establish uh 25 uh economic uh zones uh on the continent um and in 16 different countries
▶ 2:05:19by the way and when the usaid shut down uh let me find out from those of you we move uh uh youed move on down how many of you think that it was a mistake or it is a mistake for us uh to ccel out all of the work that people have been trying to do like Dr Stith uh in in in uh in Africa and all of a sudden we make a statement that you know we're first we
▶ 2:05:49we we don't we're not that interested interested in helping anybody except ourselves how do you think that's coming across and does it impact the the uh economy of of uh the continent when obviously China is trying to take over anybody did we make a mistake is there a mistake with us please yes Congressman I think it's a mistake to cut usid in this fashion it
▶ 2:06:19needs reform but this is not the way I think it will hurt unless it is replaced by something else relatively quickly think it need to take all the available tools to compete with China I I agree we we we we need to uh compete with China uh everywhere we can using all the tools that we have we had a ju good chance if we if we would work most people probably
▶ 2:06:49don't even know one of the one of the members uh of of of Congress uh during the 19 90s Mickey Leland uh had become so familiar with Africa uh he and Donald Payne uh senior that they were uh invited to every uh thing that went on in the continent in fact Mickey Leland's plane went down just outside of Adis Ababa and there's a statue of him in built in downtown adaba
▶ 2:07:20we were moving through through Africa and and and making friends and all of a sudden that has just been blown to Pieces um and I know you know I'm not trying to get out any of you in in politics I don't like politics uh but uh I I do think that this is more than political I think it it's it's a futuristic look of where we need to go back thank you Mr chairman gentleman's time has expired the chair now recognize as gentleman from Ohio Mr Davidson chairman of the subcommittee
▶ 2:07:50on National Security for five minutes I thank the chairman I really appreciate our Witnesses and confronting China is certainly one of the essential things for American foreign policy and frankly for governments around the world they're confronting the same kinds of practices by China uh when they were admitted into the World Trade Organization as a quote developing country um they promis to become a market economy and clearly they're not a market economy um in fact they use the same kinds of
▶ 2:08:20practices everywhere to block Market access to use a whole of government approach using their intelligence services and everything else to steal intellectual property and then to subsidize and dump to take over market share strategically so confronting outbound investment is one of the most important things that this committee and frankly this Congress is going to deal with and it comes in the context of a whole host of other policies but I want to go back to um The Dodd Frank act
▶ 2:08:50and when I when I was in uh manufacturing prior prior to coming to Congress I owned a group of small manufacturing companies in Ohio and early on after one acquisition someone came to me with a form and said you need you need to sign this form saying that none of the steel that we buy contains quote conflict minerals at that time we had under 50 employees and they're coming to me and I'm like I'm buying steel from us steel and you're asking me a
▶ 2:09:20small men manufacturing guy in Western Ohio where the tin that coats the steel comes from might it come from this place in central Africa how am I supposed to know that why aren't you if the government cares to know that why isn't the government doing that well this is the fallacy behind one of the approaches uh to our outbound investment act this is the Cornet approach in the Senate this has been one of the approaches presented through the Foreign Affairs committee but thankfully in this committee
▶ 2:09:51this uh Financial Services committee where we follow the money we know that really doesn't work it just shifts a burden to the private sector and the reality is the private sector doesn't even have the resources to know the answer to some of these things we don't do that when it comes to sanctions we use an aggressive licensing approach that targets specific actors it does take a lot of work and the sanctions regime itself is stressed it goes back 1975 but um you
▶ 2:10:24I I'm going to uh butcher your name but uh Mr mirim uh I can't I can't find the note here and I can't see without reading glasses so uh can you can you H highlight like the problem with this approach where you put the burden on the companies uh thank you Congressman um I'm not really an expert on regular ation of American companies but I do think
▶ 2:10:54that light regulation in general and something that is in the power of companies to live up to and fulfill is is the right way to go well thank you one of the other challenges that we confront as we deal with outbound investment is uh our International institutions and we've we've you know since the end of World War II structured things like the international monetary fund uh the World Bank we've got development interamerican development Banks
▶ 2:11:24we've got the Asian development bank and the idea that we're subsidizing China with this makes makes little sense to me I mean from 1981 to 2001 The World Bank lent China over $40 billion for 280 projects since 1986 almost 40 years now the Asia Development Bank has committed 1,218 public sector uh grants uh totaling $ 44.3 billion and right now the current portfolio as
▶ 2:11:54of right now 77 loans worth 12.55 billion uh We've we've got uh you know the Chinese currency accountability act where the IMF wants to grow the influence so I guess Mr M Eisen why would that make sense personally I don't um wish for China to gain a bigger share in these institutions at the moment in part for the reasons you mentioned also in part because of the strategic competition
▶ 2:12:25that the United States and other countries are engaged with against China um the the IMF and and other institutions are I think really important assets for um the United States where a lot of capital and human capital is invested in and it would be I think um not right to allow China to interfere with the work of these institutions if they wanted if they would get a bigger voting share yeah thank you for that Mr Miller
▶ 2:12:55unfortunately I U missed the question to you but on the outbound investment you know uh if you could respond uh we'll send a send a note uh following the hearing my time sadly has expired and I gentleman's time has expired the chair now recognizes the gentle from Illinois Mr Foster ranking member on the subcommittee on financial institutions and an old colleague of mine from the science committee you're recognize for five minutes sir uh thank you and I'd like to focus on artificial intelligence and anti corruption efforts uh Mr Miller and Mr Doshi probably are the right ones
▶ 2:13:25for this but artificial intelligence is coming at us and we're not ready for it um it is probably the most important uh area of competition between China and the United States the first U the first country that gets uh uh what amounts to an a AGI this is an ability to Simply an artificial intelligence agent that can outperform humans in most things I think in computer coding it's arguably already here uh in just in the last few days there was an announcement about a from Google
▶ 2:13:55about a cociena problem that it's solved in 48 hours uh so we're almost there and whichever country gets that capability first we'll have an effectively an infinite Army of Highly skilled technical workers that will make all of our efforts at Workforce education irrelevant and so this is the the battle we cannot lose um now the the Free World is in a very fortunate
▶ 2:14:26position that the the production of the of the gpus the key core elements of these is almost entirely in the Free World you know we rely on the Dutch systems the German Optics the you know Tokyo electron uh and a number of of companies in the US uh and final production of many of these chps in Korea and Taiwan and so we have by luck maybe or maybe by not luck we have the all of the choke points to control that technology and and
▶ 2:14:56potentially keep it for out of Chinese hands however you know we've tried to do that with normal export controls and found that people are simply smuggling those devices out uh you saw deep fake is widely believed deep fake sorry deep seek is widely uh believed to have trained their um you know Cutting Edge model using systems smuggled out of the United States because our export controls exist but are not enforceable so what are the things that we can do uh that will actually get enforcable
▶ 2:15:27uh controls on these assuming that we get the entire the entire free world to buy into the need to to keep these out of Chinese hands um Mr Doshi um you you and I have been on a panel discussing this um recently and so we'll start with you well thank you congressman and I appreciate your leadership on this issue as you know I'm partial to a solution that's technical that would make it difficult for gpus to be operated in jurisdiction where there's Hardware built into it preventing the operation unless again it's in the correct jurisdiction so there so
▶ 2:15:57if they were smuggled into China they would simply stop working or smuggle outside of their licensed area they would simply stop working so in addition to enforcement mechanisms which we need to strengthen in addition to better controls which we haven't really tried we should also look at these Hardware based solutions to keep our choke points uh strong yeah and there was a very impressive Hardware demonstration um over near the executive office building with one of these these systems that showed this can be done if we choose to do it Mr Miller any any on yeah thank you for the question
▶ 2:16:27Congressman I mean just to uh uh go back to uh your your leadup to to the question talking about the fact that we you know are working with allies um in in Taiwan and and Germany and the Netherlands Etc I think it underscores the the the fact that you know for any export control um to really be effective it it it should be you know of course targeted at at at the Bad actors and and the National Security
▶ 2:16:57risks that we're trying to control but it really needs to be multilateral and we need to get Buy in from all of our partners and allies on a on a unified approach if we're really going to be successful yeah and that's why things like uh you know voting along with Alli along with all the Rogue states in the United Nations is not a good step forward and the the the way this Administration is frally destroying the confidence in our allies is not going to make those necessary negotiations work easier um i''s say I'd like Mr M M
▶ 2:17:28um you one of the best areas that IMF has been involved in is anti-corruption uh you correctly point out in your testimony that the Chinese belt and Roads uh loans should be treated very skeptically by the International Community because they're frequently involved created through corrupt payments and that result in white elephants built by Chinese contractors uh and unpayable Loans behind them and so um traditionally the US has been at the Forefront of anti-corruption efforts you know so can you just say quickly how the US benefits
▶ 2:17:58from uh leadership in anti-corruption efforts you know as opposed to what we've seen by the administration uh announcing recently they are no longer going to enforce the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act because apparently the the president believes it has blocked some deals that he wanted to do I think you got a few seconds here yeah I think it's important to uh pursue the Avenue that um bad loans start from the Corrupt Practices and China has
▶ 2:18:28demonstrated that and while there is a need to co to to respond and to expand us loans and and U projects one has to very carefully the pros weigh the pros and cons of what has just been proposed gentleman's time has expired the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee Mr Rose for five minutes thank you chairman and thanks to chairman Hill and ranking member waters for holding this hearing and and thank you to our Witnesses for taking time to be with us last Congress Ari
▶ 2:18:59Rubenstein um testified that we should be more concerned about how prepared American Capital markets are for a Chinese invasion of Taiwan Mr Doshi I know that you believe the Chinese market is highly volatile uh as we look to prepare our markets for geopolitical instability would it not be beneficial official to have better Market data regarding our systematic and material risk exposure to China Congressman I think you are exactly
▶ 2:19:29right we need better information about our vulnerabilities across a variety of sectors in the financial sector Supply chains uh and in addition this is harder to do because our due diligence firms in China were are being down I think we are woefully underprepared in the event of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan and I know that my colleagues plan to introduce widely supported legislation that would provide us with key data on exposure risk I believe that coupled with a heavy-handed tariff strategy will incentivize American
▶ 2:20:00industry to return home and protect our markets and just just a further comment uh I I am just uh always kind of struck by the difficulty in getting visibility for the exposure to China I sit on the board of a nonprofit with Investments across a range of assets and and I have been asking this question now for a number of years and have yet to get a really clear uh dial in on exactly what our exposure is I think
▶ 2:20:30if there was uh a terrible event Visa Taiwan we would find out real quickly exactly what that exposure looks like and that but that would be too late of course shifting gears now in Tennessee we are proud to be a leader in nuclear energy Innovation through the oid National Laboratory and the efforts at the Tennessee Valley Authority however we are not innov eving fast enough in my view China is building dozens of nuclear reactors you've testified to that today Witnesses have and and looking to
▶ 2:21:00finance uh China China is looking to finance even more abroad we are learning now that China is expanding its nuclear influence internationally by funding projects in Pakistan and Argentina Mr McMurray uh how does China incentivize foreign Nations to accept their funding for these International nuclear projects yeah thank you Congressman um China is able to offer very competitive financing packages
▶ 2:21:30and they've done that for example in Pakistan to some loans you know 2% interest for example that's very hard for private us companies to compete with um that said there is a real opportunity then to leverage you know other financial institutions such as XM and DFC um two really recent examples are in Romania where the department of energy and the XM Bank work together to essentially finish a project in Romania
▶ 2:22:01where China was also competing and the US ultimately won that project issued a loan for some pre-construction work that directly benefited us jobs then also signed a letter of interest for a multi-billion dollar loan there as well and so we've seen examples where when us companies are on a More Level Playing Field they are able to compete in other countries R do you think that our uh our technology and our focus on maintaining American superiority in terms of just the technology available is that
▶ 2:22:31a is that an issue number one and number two our own failure to move forward with projects here domestically how big of an impact does that have on our ability to provide uh or to win projects overseas yeah so the private companies developing new technologies are one of the US's greatest assets and that gives us the ability to compete globally because countries want to work with the US and build these Technologies the challenge is if we're not at the table by either building them or
▶ 2:23:01developing them they're going to turn to other options recently that's been Russia and China is well poised to take that if the US doesn't make sure we have the tools to be able to compete as we've been discussing part of what has made Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee so successful is how it leverages public private Partnerships to olve technical hurdles and develop industry leading technology Mr MC uh Mr McMurray using oid National Lab as an example how can the government improve American private corporations
▶ 2:23:32abilities to compete with China yeah the department of energy and the National Lab system are an incredible resource for private companies um the public private Partnerships to develop Technologies allows you know these early ideas to really get to Market um a great example recently out of oakrid is the development of Trio fuel which is a type of fuel for a lot of new reactors there's going to be a fuel facility being built near oid Tennessee and this technology is going to be built here in the US as well and so taking those
▶ 2:24:02ideas from Market or from the lab to the domestic market and then to the global market really should be the goal for a lot of these public private Partnerships thank you my time is expired I yield back Mr chairman gentlemen yields back the chair now recognizes the gentle lady from Ohio Mrs Bey ranking member of the subcommittee on National Security for minutes thank you Mr uh chairman uh my first question here uh goes to you Mr
▶ 2:24:32casara uh as a member of this committee I'm proud to have supported legislation that would protect Ohioans from Dirty Money and harmful effects that it has on our communities for example the corporate transparency Act passed by Congress with bipartisan support and signed into law by President Trump will help us understand who really owns Anonymous shell companies and will give our law enforcement more tools to keep our community safe for example in my home
▶ 2:25:03state of Ohio which has suffered the brunt of the nation's lethal opioid epidemic the threat of anonymous shell companies is very very real uh in just one instance a Chinese synthetic opioid trafficker manufactured in and shipped deadly pentanol analoges to 37 United States using shell companies formed in Massachusetts to run their operation and this scheme LED as you can
▶ 2:25:33imagine to uh multiple fatal overdoses in Ohio now I agree that we must work with small business to help them comply with reporting requirements but cannot abandon these La Landmark anti-money laundering policies alog together because the human cost uh is just uh unacceptable so here here's my question uh Mr casaro you have worked to counter illicit Finance for decades can you please address why
▶ 2:26:03understanding the true owners behind us Anonymous companies would be important for countering China's role in the fentanyl trade thank you for the question I have looked at anti-money laundering counterterrorism Finance for over 30 years and in my opinion uh lack of beneficial ownership information surrounding Anonymous shell companies is kind of like the last hurdle I remember back in the day
▶ 2:26:33we started passing a series of laws rules and regulations but kind of in my estimation this is the last major hurdle that we have to overcome the current legislation in my opinion again it's not perfect but it is it is something it is something that we can we can work with going forward um the reason it's so important is again following the money and the value trails and finding out who is actually behind all this myself my colleagues constantly
▶ 2:27:03they get to a certain stage in investigation and they B they bump into one of these Anonymous companies and we can't go any further and as I explained earlier in testimony it's they're very active in the layering stage of moneya laundering they're very active in the integration stage of moneya laundering we need something some tools to Avail ourselves the other thing is very very quickly we are being criticized around the world for lack of beneficial ownership information
▶ 2:27:34we failed the most recent Mutual evaluation from Financial action task force not having uh this type of information available and personally when I've been overseas mentoring teaching uh our our colleagues overseas talking about the importance of trans transparency they could come back to me and say Well Mr John we're doing an investigation into your company in your country and it goes to these Anonymous uh shell companies can you help us sure nothing I can do thank thank you
▶ 2:28:04I got time maybe for one more question uh let me go to you Mr m e um in your testimony you outlined that China has become the largest Sovereign L lender to emerging and developing countries over the past two decades now we we all know that project 202's agenda which president Trump denies ownership of despite executing its provision by provision by provision by provision proposed that the United
▶ 2:28:34States withdraw from the IMF in the World Bank can you discuss how the United States withdrawing from these ifis would affect our ability to preserve dominance of the US dollar and compete with China on the global stage well first of all I mentioned earlier that the institutions really leverage us contri contributions by a large amount second um if the US were to um exit from the institutions
▶ 2:29:04um they would still exist I mean the um the headquarters would move to the largest second shareholder but probably they would not be able to access easily the dollar anymore and therefore they would have to loan in other currencies and that would be for example one way that other currencies would gain in stature and of course the the effect of the fall in US leadership would contribute also to that so it would affect it can you give me a yes or no on that okay thank you my time is up gent ladies time is expired the chair now recognizes
▶ 2:29:34the gentleman from South Carolina Mr Timmons for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and I want to thank the witnesses for being here today China poses the most significant risk to both Global Financial markets and our country's economic future with its growing influence over the global economy technology and key Industries China has the potential to disrupt Financial systems worldwide institutions like the IMF and World Bank help maintain stability but China's increasing role Within These organization organizations raises concerns about
▶ 2:30:04the direction of the global economy that said we shouldn't be anti-china instead we need to hold China accountable for issues like currency manipulation unfair Trade Practices and the rising debt they impose on other countries and this is important the unit States cannot do all of this alone we must work with our allies to protect the global economy without creating unnecessary Conflict by pushing for greater transparency and fairness in international financial institutions Mr Miller could you
▶ 2:30:34please explain the role uh China's belt and Road initiative has played in exporting emerging Chinese Technologies to developing nations worldwide and how significant is a cyber security risk these Technologies pose within the economic Frameworks of these thank you for the question yes uh I mean China's belt and Road initiative um is you know has definitely um increased the availability of of Chinese Technologies uh you know around
▶ 2:31:05the world um you know when it comes to cyber security I I think you know the first principles are always that that that that we we need to uh mitigate risks um and be be as targeted as possible in in in doing so you know as as we saw during the the 5G debates here um you know when when it was determined that there were risks involved in certain of those Chinese Technologies you know steps were taken to to both mitigate the Cyber risks um and have to get in
▶ 2:31:35more details on that um but but but also to exclude equipment when there's been a judgment made that that it is causing th those types of issues thank you for that you know we're talking about Huawei a global player in 5G technology and the risks posed by the Chinese Communist party in 2019 the US government um led the effort alongside allies like the UK and Australia to restrict huawei's access to global Supply chains citing National Security concerns over the potential for Espionage through 5G networks and
▶ 2:32:05despite this many developing countries continue to adopt W alwayss technology drawn in by the lower costs because the Chinese government subsidizes the entire thing um and the company's alleged commitment to investing in local infrastructure when they just want to back door into their system um but WWE's growing presence in the global infrastructure particularly in developing nations has caught the attention of the IMF uh the MF highlights the complex relationship between economic development and geopolitical risks for many
▶ 2:32:35of these countries huwe is Affordable and advanced 5G technology is vital for building telecommunications networks which are crucial for economic growth and modernization at the same time the US has urged Nations to reconsider their Reliance on Huawei citing concerns over Espionage and Chinese influence on communication systems this has created a challenge for the IMF because it has to balance the need for financing and long-term stability with the political and security risk that could impede development um in 2020 I introduced the promoting secure 5G
▶ 2:33:05act to count to counter China's efforts to expand its Telecom influence in countries receiving aid from uh International financial institutions particularly the IMF uh and the IFC I was pleased to see that bill was passed into laws part of the 2022 ndaa um Mr mizen uh how has the IMF approached the challenge of balancing its mission to support Global development with concerns raised by Western Nations about potential security risks linked to Huawei and other Innovative Chinese companies
▶ 2:33:36uh that have close ties to the CCP I think the AMF is a multilateral institutions cannot really assess the technological risks the the money that is being provided is for balance of pay support and of course it is up to the countries how to spend it and use it and the IMF as a macroeconomic organization cannot go into the details of how it is used thank you for that you know I think the wa the Huawei example is a perfect way
▶ 2:34:06to chart a path forward to hold China accountable uh obviously wuwei was engaging in um untour Behavior and the exposing the cyber security risks associated with um them essentially giving away 5G to developing countries and getting our allies to get on board to essentially Force Huawei to become arms link transaction uh in the future I think it's a perfect example of how we can band together with our allies to hold China
▶ 2:34:36accountable thank you Mr chairman I yield back gentleman yields back the chair now recognizes the gentan Illinois Mr Caston for five minutes thank you Mr Lucas um so thank you all for coming here today I really appreciate um appreciate the the chair bringing up this important hearing I I want to focus there's a lot about sort of theoretical future risks I want to talk about real-time ongoing risks um the and things that I six months ago were very bipartisan I hope they're still bipartisan um
▶ 2:35:07we had as part of the continuing resolution an agreement to block outbound investment in China um I think Mr Davidson Mr bar have alluded to pieces of that I suspect from their comments they may not have agreed with all of it but it was a very bipartisan agreement that had been that had been developed the that package was removed under pressure from Elon Musk um right at the end of the last term and so now we don't have an outbound investment screen that we would have had but for that pressure um are are any of you familiar enough with the terms of that proposal for me to just ask you a
▶ 2:35:37couple questions oh you're all you're all stand well let me let me just share with a concern and and um what's going on there that that provision um would have required restricted a required notification of us investments in Chinese companies that were involved in semiconductors microelectronics Quantum information Technologies and AI um if that's the only thing you know I see Mr DOI I see you nodding your head so I'm G to pick on you here let's say that you owned a US automobile
▶ 2:36:07based company that got its start in an infusion from capital from a department of energy loan from The Loan program office you wanted to um build factories in China to bring self-driving cars from China does that sound like something that might be restricted or retained under that program I think it's possible under that program that could be restricted okay and you'd also like to build an AI data center in China to train the algorithm that's needed for your autonomous vehicles that sure sounds like something that would also probably be restricted given the data collections
▶ 2:36:38yes Congressman I think a sectoral approach does make sense okay so that that of course is Elon Musk I'm talking about and it makes perfect sense if he is only looking out for his self-interest that he might have pressured ER Johnson or others to pull that from the floor I'm speculating but why else would he right now we also 6 months ago had a very bipartisan agreement to force the sale of Tik Tock from a CCP controlled company we had lots of hearings lots of scary information about the way that the CCP was taking
▶ 2:37:08data the way they were weaponizing that data in places like Taiwan um and could potentially weaponize it in the United States all of a sudden trumps comes into office and that deal is indefinitely post postponed not legally because the law is very clear the sale should have happened um again one questions the motives we've had Elon Musk who has said this is a direct quote from him he said that Taiwan is an integral part of China from a diplomatic perspective that sounds an
▶ 2:37:38awful lot like Donald Trump saying zalinsky is a dictator Mr DOI any comments on what that might do to Chinese aggression in the region if they if they hear the United States the leader of the United States suggesting that Taiwan is integral and and Russia can take Land by force Congressman I think that the PRC looks very carefully at our statements and actions on Taiwan and in Ukraine they think that if we for example abandon Ukraine in a fit of dysfunction then that means that we're not going to come to taiwan's defense it will embolden them as will
▶ 2:38:08statements that suggest that Taiwan should pay us for defense I share the concern last thing that happen Trump gets into office issues a meme coin uh the meme coin as all meme coins does surges in value and then collapse because it's a piece of garbage but along the way there are um 120 million dollar worth of Trades made by Chinese investors the the Trump family and entities owned by the controlled by the Trump family made over $100 million in brokerage fees so even though
▶ 2:38:38they didn't get the value of the coin because there is no value of the coin they've made $100 million in Deal fees the world Liberty Financial Trump's entity which was about to hit a liquidity crisis all of a sudden got a $30 million infusion of capital from Justin's son whose Tron blockchain is used by drug traffickers and terrorist groups that all of a sudden gave Donald Trump access to the cash flows from that company under their terms of agreement my question for you all and I say this is an immediate concern is there a national
▶ 2:39:09security concern if entities affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party have direct economic involvement with the president of the United States and Elon Musk if you're hesitating on that question let me put it another way should we care about National Security only when it is bipartisan or should we care even more when the call is coming from inside the building yield back gentleman yields back the chair recognizes the Jan
▶ 2:39:39from Pennsylvania Mr muser chairman of the oversight and investigation subcommittee CH thank you Mr chairman uh thank you to our Witnesses so China is outpacing us um leveraging Trade Practices currency manipulation aggressive state-backed investment to dominate critical Industries the Biden Administration did absolutely nothing to change that under President Trump we are seeing a different approach when it puts America First by attracting uh over a trillion dollars in foreign and domestic investment from the likes
▶ 2:40:09of Saudi Arabia Taiwan Oracle Apple nepon steel securing uh critical Industries and leveraging tariffs to create a more compe comptitive playing field uh Mr McMurray AI data centers demand significant power as we all know and we uh including nuclear including nuclear uh to power the Investments president Trump recently secured I do have a nuclear plant in my district working to power an AI data center
▶ 2:40:39how critical would you put it that strong energy infrastructure in attracting AI investment and keeping the US ahead how important is yeah thank you for your question um access to electricity and power is going to be incredibly important for Technologies like Ai and so domestically we have to make it easier to build the different generation sources to provide that Power Nuclear being one of the many Technologies to do that and so looking at the broader permitting
▶ 2:41:10system and making making it easier to build new generation to build new transmission lines all needs to happen so the US can continue to lead on AI nulear will play a big role in this I hope so okay great uh Mr Mullen my bill recently passed the house the China exchange raid transparency act uh directing the US representative at the IMF to hold China accountable for manipulation uh with China's unreliable economic data and opaque exchange rate practices
▶ 2:41:40uh first off do you agree with that and how can the IMF be effective in stopping such currency manipulation by the IMF assesses the exchange rate policies of its members um annually in the external sector report it has not found evidence of um strong misalignment um there are issues with um some of the data that go into that assessment there's a very interesting
▶ 2:42:11debate about the discrepancy between the China's current account and and trade account and that's an ongoing discussion um but purely in terms of macroeconomic variables um imbalances have come down and there's no evidence of currency manipulation which I think has also been found excuse me that's like saying there's no gambling at Ricks that's just not not correct sir um Mr Miller I'm going to move on to you uh cifi has focused more on
▶ 2:42:41scrutinizing allies and stopping China from bypassing investment restrictions uh president Trump's National Security memorandum correcting this by Expediting Allied Investments over 1 billion while tightening controls on Chinese Investments is critical sectors like Ai and healthcare does this think you do you think this addresses flaws in civas uh Congressman thank thank you for the question um you know absolutely agree that we should be incentivizing uh Investments uh with us allies
▶ 2:43:12um uh you know the the nspm uh that you mentioned you know it I think it's commendable and that it it seems to to address a risk-based approach um you know Allied Investments would seem to present a very low risk so why why wouldn't we want to FastTrack those types of Investments um you know I mean I think uh so so so I do think that that there are improvements uh there for the the overall cfus process okay and Mr uh M and I know I cut you off F
▶ 2:43:42I'll send you the the facts and evidence that that I have which shows that it does happen in a in a very slick manner uh but it it is a is a regular activity that takes place uh Mr Miller uh president Trump's approach to outbound investment focused specifically on ensuring US Dollars don't fund the ccp's military buildup how does this targeted approach better protect National Security and economic interests compared to a broad one
▶ 2:44:12siiz fits-all investment ban um well you're absolutely right that a one-size fits-all approach is is is not the right approach on outbound investment and I I would suggest not the right approach on on really any Economic Security issues we really need to Target these policies to clear clearly identifiable risks so so that we don't accidentally undermine the US investment and competitiveness that we know is is is so key um you know I do think that the uh the implementation details
▶ 2:44:42will matter you know as we see more details regarding the the the nspm um but you you know and also enforcement resources right because if we don't have the resources to enforce these uh policies then it's also can be very difficult thank you I'm out of time Mr chairman I yield back gentleman's time expired the chair now recognizes the gentle woman from Michigan Mrs T before five minutes thank you Mr chair uh you know I just came from my office and meeting some of my constituents and I can tell you overwhelm
▶ 2:45:13me right now this week uh I'm not getting calls about this particular issue I wish we were using this um you know the power to convene and discuss the issues that matter to many of our families in our district um more directly and and right now you know they're very worried about the budget proposal they're very worried about um families being impacted by the illegal uh firings and I mean it's just important to say you know for them the biggest threat right now is uh again unchecked balances
▶ 2:45:43and you know you have Court decisions after Court decisions saying that uh there's a uh you know unconstitutional moves in regards to this Administration and so I really uh you know stress to my colleagues if anything we can do to be hit more transparent with our residents about what's going on specifically right now with our federal government um you know instead of right now sometimes I feel like we're scapegoating foreigners and we're continually Target people uh that are sometimes even the most vulnerable Among Us
▶ 2:46:14um but again I think the real threat right now in our country is what is going on with this Administration and the lack of accountability on the part of Congress to hold them in check um but I do want to ask uh Mr um is it Milo son am I saying it right thank you um you know one of the things that I think that is critically important as you know about us and China and how we can tackle Global challenges as you know from the climate crisis to Public Health crisises
▶ 2:46:44that we continue to see the unequal growth require um you know multilateral collaboration and so forth and we got to create some sort of opportunities to have some sort of dialogue um to to again address some of these concerns so for instance take the global um overc capacity many US critics demand that China end its industrial policies to reduce excess production instead of making this a zero sum problem where one country must produce less we could work together so that all countries consum
▶ 2:47:15can um that all can consume more that means focusing on velopment higher wages and more Global public goods so how can you see the us working more closely with China and other countries to reduce Global overc capacity by expanding Global consumer demand expanding Global consumer demand um in the current situation could be potentially inflationary
▶ 2:47:45but having said that of course there's a need to ensure that um um China does not unfairly subsidize its manufacturing exports I think um the multilateral approach would of course be through the World Trade Organization but I think in the forthcoming trade negotiations between the United States and China this should be a key Focus um given the current situation multilateral institutions can only be of limited help in um
▶ 2:48:15kind of contributing to a bilateral trade dispute although I personally of course Very Much support the objectives of um getting China to play fair and by the rules uh Dr DOI you know in the long game you state that countries could engage in co-investment with China on Belt Ro and Road initiative projects uh in exchange for impr improved standards do you see an opportunity for co-investment by us to improve standards including labor standards
▶ 2:48:46thank you very much congresswoman um I think it's possible when I wrote that four or five years ago it seemed like it was more plausible than it is today given the competitive Dynamics between the US and China but I do think that if there were some projects where the US came in and said we'll come in but it has to be done in X Y and Z way with perhaps us certain us companies with certain us labor standards the Chinese would be interested because for them it would help legitimize some of the projects but that being said I think this is a very hard thing to do because they're not necessarily as inclined to work with us in some of these places because they're using their
▶ 2:49:16infrastructure loans to get ports and other things for their own Strategic Benefit yeah I've seen that um so let's talk a little bit Dr DOI about um nuclear deescalation per you know of course you know there's issue do you see any openings um for us in regards to Arms Control talks with China well when I worked for President Biden and we were thinking about stuff like this we were unable to really get the Chinese to engage and when they did engage they did it for one simple reason they wanted to whitewash their massive nuclear buildup and make it look like they were
▶ 2:49:46being responsible that being said there's aot we have to do and I was grateful to work on the uh the ability for the US to basically come with China and say nuclear weapons should not be connected to artificial intelligence so there's things we can do like that that we should keep working on and I think the Trump Administration will build on that Foundation yeah and I'll just leave with folks as we talk about these issues and their real issues I just hope we don't racialize it and one of the things you know just as a Muslim American uh in the United States I know for instance when many countries are doing um you know bad things
▶ 2:50:16or it's not reflective on a people and so I just I say that because there's so many folks I think directly impacted sometimes in how we approach accountability with China thank you g lady eels back the chair now recognizes the G from New York Mr Garbarino Vice chairman of the subcommittee on Capital markets for five minutes thank you uh Mr chairman for years we have heard warnings from the intelligence community on the threat of state sponsored cyber actors conducting malicious activity on our nation's critical infrastructure These Warnings have now become a reality
▶ 2:50:47sisa NSA and the FBI and other governmental agencies confirmed the People's Republic of China has successfully infiltrated the networks of us critical infrastructure PRC sponsored Vol typhoon hackers are pre-positioning themselves on it networks to enable lateral movement to OT assets to disrupt functions within our water energy and sectors then you have flax typhoon hackers who take directions from the ministry of State security and have Unleashed a large scale botnet targeting American and Taiwanese computer networks as
▶ 2:51:17a result of these discoveries treasury issued a series of sanctions aimed at combating increasingly aggressive cyber activity by PRC sponsored actors we must do everything in our power to hold nation states like the PRC accountable recent events prove that cyber risk is an evolving and persistent problem that is not isolated to one sector nor one threat actor Mr Miller what should the US do to best mitigate the impact of PRC cyber incursions now that we've acknowledged so publicly that they are currently in our Networks
▶ 2:51:48uh thank you for the question uh Congressman Garbarino uh yes you know as as as you know well um and as you mentioned uh state sponsored uh cyber attacks from from China and elsewhere are have been a problem for for quite a while I mean in terms of mitigating the the these risks uh you know I would say we you know have we we we really do need to go go back to some cyber first principles right there there are what once they' they they've breached the net networks
▶ 2:52:19which they obviously have in this case you know organizations need to I mean frankly follow the the advice of sisa and others and do things like um using end-to-end encryption is something that that that's been flagged a number of different times multiactor authentication you know logging uh so so they you can really figure it out and then maybe even more fundamentally it's so important to get visibility into what into Vis visibility into your network and your assets to really understand the scope of the breach um
▶ 2:52:49uh you know so so those are some of the some of the the very basic cyber things that we all need to be doing and doubling down on yeah absolutely cyber hygiene I've always pushed uh is something that everybody needs to do uh better cyber hygiene um but uh you know FBI uh disrupted flax typhoon's grasp uh on these compromised devices and uh they were being run by a company called Integrity Technology Group which was sanctioned by the Treasury office um this is the S I think now the second major Chinese hacking group that has been disrupted in sanctions
▶ 2:53:19so I'm I'm wondering do you think sanctions more sanctions uh could deter China from future attacks do you think that's worth it or is there something that we can do to for deterring uh Chinese actors well I I think but particularly when we have been able to verify or more specifically when National Security and law enforcement agencies are able to to verify you know the attribution of an attack um you know AB absolutely you know sanction targeted at those Bad
▶ 2:53:49actors is is a way to not only hold them account accountable but to Der but to deter other actors um you know I don't think we should look at sanctions as a silver bullet solution here you know something that that that we all know is that this is a continuous process when it coming when when we're dealing with cyber security um and I don't think we're ever going to eliminate all risks so we're always going to have to be managing these risks and they're probably are always going to be new actors too but the more we can do to hold them accountable uh the better absolutely appreciate that answer thank you very much
▶ 2:54:20um I wish there was a silver bullet uh nuclear energy is one of our largest sources of clean power and advanced nuclear energy shows a lot of Promise uh the international atomic energy agency says that nearly 30 countries are looking to build nuclear power however over the last several years the export markets for this energy has been dominated for by Russia and China uh we must do more to make sure that we have a robust supply chain to build new nuclear reactors domestically so that we can become leaders in the international market Place Mr McMurray
▶ 2:54:50how does innovation at home translate to our ability to export these Technologies internationally thank you congressmen um ultimately we need to make it easier for private us companies to compete globally I think especially for countries that are interested in building nuclear power for the first time us can offer a lot of other things whether it's the department of energy and the National Labs and the technical expertise there the regulatory expertise from the nuclear Regulatory Commission and and just the operations expertise that we have from our
▶ 2:55:20existing Fleet and so when we look to compete we have to think broader than just competing financially although XM and DFC can help play a role in that but really try to focus on the broader Suite of offerings and technologies that we have I appreciate that I out of time uh thank you very much for your answers and thank you Mr chairman I yield back gentleman's time has expired the chair now recognizes the gentleman from California Mr licardo for five minutes thank you very much Mr chair uh Mr Miller I very much appreciate your your um as someone who
▶ 2:55:51lives in Silicon Valley and represents Silicon Valley uh particularly your your emphasis on ensuring us competitiveness through better tax policy uh Financial policy and in particular the deductibility of research and development expenditures which I know is of great interest to many entrepreneurs and small companies in my district uh as I recall those experim ures I'm sorry dedu the
▶ 2:56:21expensing or the deductibility of those expenditures was phased out in 2022 is that right I'm I'm not 100% sure on the year but I I but I believe that that did happen yes and and it happened as a result of the passage of the Trump tax law in 2017 I I believe so and in fact uh we are now faced with proposals to extend those tax cuts uh for the next decade or so
▶ 2:56:52at a cost of 4.6 trillion or so uh and in fact the expensing deductibility of research and development expenditures that was largely sacrificed as a way to pay for those very expensive tax cuts in 2017 was not um I'm I'm I'm I'm not certain that that that you know is the exact exchange there but I mean both those things did
▶ 2:57:22happen yeah and they happen to happen in the same tax law that is we gave very large tax cuts in other areas and we got rid of this critical provision that has been part of the US tax code for more than half a century to provide entrepreneurs and small companies the ability to expense current year research and development expenditures we released a paper on Economic Security today and one of our recommendations is that
▶ 2:57:52we should absolutely reinstate the that that uh ability to to expense in in the year that the uh you know and to not amortise over over 15 years yeah I I very much share your perspective on that so I appreciate your point uh and as we think about competitiveness with China certainly those kinds of tax Provisions are very important how important is it that we would exempt the first $13 million of uh someone's estate from an estate tax
▶ 2:58:22to our competiveness with China um I you know I am not a tax expert I'll I'll I'll be honest with you um uh but you know so but I'm happy to I'm happy to take some of these uh tax questions back and and and get you an answer for sure okay thank you sir I I I very much appreciate your advocacy and I hope uh I hope that all of us will come to the same conclusion that we need sensible tax policy that makes us more competitive and not tax giveaways that simply
▶ 2:58:53hand amount to handouts for very very wealthy individuals uh Mr DOI I appreciate that you've certainly been uh studying and working in this space uh for many many years and you undoubtedly situation more than a decade and a half ago I think with Huawei uh and several other Chinese companies that were essentially caught in trade SEC secret theft and as we think about our
▶ 2:59:23IP um many of those companies are still operating in the United States are they not they are sir and so they'd be subject to us laws and to federal investigation it should be congressman and if we have a challenge being able to find FBI agents or assistant us attorneys to be able to investigate and prosecute those uh that would not help in our efforts to crack down on trade secret theft and IP theft
▶ 2:59:54a congressman yes in the FBI has indicated needs more resources for the China Challenge for across administrations and the current administration's position so far has been to essentially fire thousands of FBI agents and federal prosecutors is that right yes Congressman to rep prioritize the FBI for other missions is that going to make us better or worse at halting trade secret theft in this country uh I think it's important to invest in enforcement the Chinese Communist party is one of the most formidable challenges for IP
▶ 3:00:24theft that the country has ever faced and so more enforcement on this issue is always better thank you I uh thank you very much Mr chairman gentleman yields back the chair now recognizes the general woman of California Mrs Kim for five minutes thank you chairman and I want to thank our Witnesses for joining us today to talk about some of the ways that we can compete against China and Dr DOI good to see you again um Mr Miller I know I read your testimony and I agree with you about not taking our
▶ 3:00:54current US technology at over China and other competitors for granted we all saw how China shocked the world and Global markets when it unveiled deep seek as a competitor to many of our domestic AI companies so can you elaborate on what policies should the US Implement and or expand on uh to better better compete against China and why do you believe deep seek has found success competing against our more established
▶ 3:01:24AI companies thank you for the question congresswoman um well you know in terms of uh the the policies that that we should be pursuing as as I as I mentioned to your uh colleague you know just a moment ago I released a paper just today with uh 10 different recommendations to promote Economic Security uh and and Innovation you know including um in on a number of different areas and and many of those you know relate specifically to competition
▶ 3:01:55in emerging Technologies and promoting competition in emerging Technologies such as uh AI um you know just and in the economic security context you know what what we really want to do is calibrate our policies uh so that we are you know whether it's investment restrictions or export controls uh you know targeting National Security risks but not doing anything to undermine the the the US ability to to compete I mean we we have the leading Innovation companies in
▶ 3:02:25the world and that is a source of strength uh not only for econ reintroducing the legislation that I collat with uh Congress Juan on the other side of the aisle uh this is a bipartisan Bill the strengthening experts against China act uh this is to uh give the uh uh exm exm Bank the tools to better support for exports of American emerging uh Technologies like AI 5G and advanced semi uh semiconductors
▶ 3:02:55so do you believe this type of legislation will be uh helpful to implement or complement our uh competition against um China uh yes I mean we obviously exports are a key part of what of of that US economic strength in in in technology so we want to really promote all tools that we can uh for to to really help facilitate companies of all sizes in in in making those exports uh abroad
▶ 3:03:26thank you you know since 2015 the Chinese Communist party has been the largest creditor to low-income countries and according to the world bank's uh figures the total external government uh debt of low and middle income countries increased from 1.7 trillion in 2011 to 3.5 trillion in 20 21 uh this is a large part of that is a huge increase that can be directly attributed to the ccp's
▶ 3:03:57irresponsible and OPAC lending programs like the brri belt and Road initiative um I want to ask this question to Mr mizen right there okay uh in your testimony you mentioned that since China joined the um G20 common framework for death restruct structuring in 2020 the speed of debt workouts had picked up somewhat so why are debt workouts have not picked up at full speed
▶ 3:04:28um can you start that it would be ideal if China would be part of the Paris Club that has long experience and procedures for how to restructure debt um the Comm the common framework is kind of a I would say um a followup attempt to bring China into some process but it's not as elaborate as the Paris Club um China is finding its way how to contribute to it it is
▶ 3:04:58very reluctant for deep discounts which make it difficult to get countries to a sustainable debt level so there's a lot of progress still needed that that Improvement is is noteworthy it's been for a few countries but it needs to be sustained and it needs to be accompanied by deot uh willingness to to do de dead restructuring so can you tell us what are some of the uh the hurdles um the biggest hurdles to ensure that the CCP agrees to Collective debt restructuring and if you can tell us how debt countries
▶ 3:05:29are affected when the CCP delays debt restructuring through the actions my understanding is that Chinese officials that work for various State Banks and and other entities don't want to take a loss a nominal loss on their loans they're totally reluctant to do that so they're trying to do all sorts of of other things that are not as beneficial for the Creditor for the debtor countries to restructure their debt it is really an internal Chinese issue that needs to be overcome thank you myate time's up
▶ 3:05:59gentle L time has expired the chair now recognizes gentlewoman from Massachusetts M Presley for five minutes thank you Mr chair and thank you to the witnesses for being here today sharing uh your expertise on Information Technology trade policy international relations and more the the r the Chinese Communist Party poses to the United States is one that my colleagues and I take seriously from egregious violations of human rights manipulation of our global economy to supporting drug trafficking and stealing intellectual
▶ 3:06:29property the United States must take action to confront these issues while many of these problems have been around for years or even decades there is a new emerging deeply intertwined with the Chinese government that deserves our full attention and that threat is Elon CH ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of the following articles Elon musk's China threat China May welcome Elon mus Cuts how Elon Musk deep ties to an
▶ 3:06:59admiration for China could complicate Trump's Beijing policy pardon me Elon Musk a Chinese puppet and Elon Musk a national security threat seeing no objection so ordered winess is say I'm going to ask you to answer the following questions to the best of your ability please do not feel like you have to pretend that you know the answer but also do not pretend that you do not know the answer you've taken a oath to be honest the American public is
▶ 3:07:29watching Dr Doshi who is the CEO of Tesla and makes the majority of its profits through Manufacturing in China that would be Elon Musk congresswoman Elon Musk and not just the vehicles 40% of his battery supply chain is with Chinese companies Mr Miller Mr Miller who worked with the Chinese commun Communist party to receive $1.4 billion doll in loans to support his business Mr Miller um
▶ 3:08:00I I I mean I I'm not I don't have the information claiming my time Elon Musk okay Miss ruya who did Republican senator Tom Cotton accuse of chasing Chinese dollars to help his businesses Tesla and SpaceX oh okay well it is Elon Musk in our global economy it is not uncommon that a rich CEO would do business in China but in this case it is a five alarm fire when that rich CEO doing
▶ 3:08:30business with China is also running the United States government Mr mul Eisen do you know what billionaire had a private meeting with China's vice president literally the day before Trump's inauguration I don't know Elon Musk and then on inauguration day who became the head of Doge a federal agency created by Trump Elon Musk Mr Miller as head of Doge who has accessed private sensitive government data including US Treasury
▶ 3:09:03Systems reclaiming my time Elon Musk Dr Doshi given all this information who do you think should undergo a rigorous investigation well I think anybody with conflicts potentially in China should be you know investigated if they're having a position of influence in Government so I would say the CEO of Tesla Elon Musk Elon Musk unfortunately Elon Musk has not even gone through a simple federal background check he is a citizen of three countries has business dealings with adversarial governments and is
▶ 3:09:33leading an assault on our federal government workers the financial services committee is one of the most powerful committees in Congress there should be an investigation into Elon musk's conflicts of interest with China or at least how about federal background check this should not be a partisan issue no billionaire Republican or Democrat should get a free pass if Republicans are serious about countering China's threat to the United States you all will support this investigation
▶ 3:10:04of Elon Musk Elon Musk has already bought the presidency and we should all be concerned he will sell out that presidency and our nation to China I yeld back G lady yels back the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin Mr Fitzgerald for five minutes thank you Mr chairman thank you gentlemen for being here I know it's a long day um Us Secret Service investigates a variety of cyber related criminal activities including the illicit use of digital assets
▶ 3:10:34through its Global Network of 44 cyber fraud task forces significant aspects of this elicit activity involve unlicensed money transmitting businesses the illicit structuring of transactions and other criminal activity against organizations that are not federally insured financial institutions but our financial institutions as defined under the bank secrecy act to address this problem uh I was pleased to work uh last Congress and this congress with colleagues to advance combating money laundering and
▶ 3:11:04cyber crime act out of uh both financial services and Judiciary Committee of which I'm a member of both this bill uh it could harmonize kind of the criminal activity and the banking statutes to clarify kind of specifically where secret service has the ability to investigate authority over crimes related to elicit digital asset transactions um Mr uh casara could you just briefly touch on important role that the Secret
▶ 3:11:35Service plays in in fighting these illicit transactions Congressman Fitzgerald thank you for the question I actually started my career in treasur mey as a special agent for the US Secret Service back in the 1980s mid 1980s I'm very very aware of the Dual missions of the of the Secret Service basically enforcement and investigations a lot of people don't recognize how important investig Financial crimes investigations are to the US Secret Service got
▶ 3:12:05it start right after the Civil War investigating counterfeit and that's progressed over the years the secret service has got involved with the forgery of US Treasury checks credit card fraud Computer Fraud identity fraud and then more recently I think it was started about 2004 2005 they initiated the Cyber investigative section one of the first US law enforcement uh units dedicated to strategically tackling uh significant
▶ 3:12:35cyber crime actors and groups this type of threat is becoming more and more important um cyber uh cyber currencies for example uh definitely involved with things like uh ransomware right all these types of payments does the Department of Justice and law enforcement prioritize kind of the financing side of uh the relationship which we're exploring right now related
▶ 3:13:05to the fentanyl crisis or is the emphasis right now placed on kind of the interdiction of drugs themselves I there's kind of this discussion that's been going on in Congress for the last couple congresses on that yeah this is an issue that's been discussed within a law enforcement for many times in per a kind of a previous uh answer of mine law enforcement has been emphasizing the product for example drugs and people instead of following the money Trail
▶ 3:13:35there's lots of different reasons for that in my opinion one of the one of the primary reasons is because investigating the product interdiction for example is much easier than going after the money trails these are long-term complex investigations sometimes they don't bear any results it takes extreme uh commitment to uh put the Manpower and the resources into these investigations but these are the investigations that actually pay dividends over time taking the the motivation away
▶ 3:14:06from the criminals so it um there's a lot of discussion obviously about the Border um but specifically the most alarming thing that a lot of the Border agents uh when I've been there and other members of Congress have been down there um one of the most alarming is the Chinese Nationals that were being caught on a regular basis so the fentel crisis is obviously something that we're all aware of but it's really Beijing
▶ 3:14:36and the flow of dollars that are coming across with the drug trade that uh I think to my in my estimation has really underscored the whole idea that this is in fact happening in a in a larger and larger kind of magnified uh area uh specific to the uh the San Diego sector which we see a lot of that happening right now any thoughts on that piece I think I just like to pick up on one of your comments as far as the
▶ 3:15:06Chinese um Nationals of U of military age males primarily right are the largest uh ethnic group if you will to use lack of the better term other than Latinos that are coming across um our Southern border and once again it frightens me because the CCP uh China communist China is skilled with asymmetric Warfare we don't know who these people are we don't know where they are we don't know what they're doing and any Chinese that come to this country
▶ 3:15:37basically come with permission of the Chinese government and once they're here they are obligated by Chinese intelligence law to answer to and take orders from Chinese intelligence Services very good thank you I'll go back chairman thank you chair now recognizes J woman from Texas Mrs Garcia for five minutes thank you Mr chairman thank you to the witnesses uh one of the things that I'm most
▶ 3:16:07concerned about and I've watched over the years is when it comes to China and frankly even even other even Russia is the right of of its influence in Latin America by 2021 China has become the second largest trading partner for the entire region just behind the United States by $150 million in Imports and 399 billion in exports China is also making foreign investments in
▶ 3:16:37Latin America within the infrastructure energy and Military sectors clearly China's belt and Road initiative is working China is slowly but surely expanding its influence throughout Latin America it is only a matter of time before China surpasses the United States is the top trade partner in Latin America and in my view tariffs on Mexico doesn't help one bit we must rep prioritize investing with and recommit to our partners in
▶ 3:17:07Latin America to stop China's growing influence Mr Doshi what can we do to better counter growing Chinese Investments and fluence in Latin America well thank you very much for the question congresswoman I'll note a few things first a significant amount of Chinese investment in Africa sorry in Latin America involves a degree of corruption not all of it but a lot of it if you look at for example a significant Dam project in Ecuador the dam didn't work there were a lot of cracks and there was also direct evidence of corruption so one thing that we can do is bring some
▶ 3:17:37sunlight as a disinfectant the more people know about what's happening in their backyard the more that they see that there's sort of corruption behind some of this investment the easier it is to push back but the second thing we have to do is we can't fight something with nothing it's important for us to reauthorize the DFC and other institutions as well exm to be players in the space help our companies compete commercially and make sure we're providing Aid where it's necessary do you think we can do it uh I think that the United States can certainly outcompete the PRC for influence in Latin America we are still the preferred partner of choice
▶ 3:18:08but I'll note that in addition to the problems that we have with the development financing that we need to offer or on the commercial side China is a major Goods export her to Latin America the fact that China is the world's biggest manufacturing superpower with a$1 trillion dollar Global good Surplus gives them a lot that they can send to Latin America we have to figure out how we're going to deal with their manufacturing heft if we want to retain our influence in that region right of course we've we've had a talked a lot about this morning about fentanyl um and we know
▶ 3:18:38that the drug trade is global uh money laundering is a global issue despite the global reach that elicit Finance has our financial institutions have their hands tied and cannot share information or seamlessly track concerning actors the existing guidance from the financial crimes enforcement Network and other Federal Regulators prohibits us financial institutions from sharing the SS as suspicious activity reports with foreign branches
▶ 3:19:09subsidiaries and Affiliates it's a slow and hard process to counter illicit Finance Mr caser where are you there you are wouldn't it be useful to let financial institutions share information on a case-by casee basis via a pilot program established through the anti-money laundering act yes Congress Congressman excuse me um I believe it would be very very useful to share information on that pilot program
▶ 3:19:39um taking into consideration issues like privacy third party and this type of thing but yes I think it would be very useful to make uh more uh more effective for for law enforcement more beneficial and helpful to law more beneficial and yes all right so wouldn't you agree that this is a potential solution to helping financial institutions better detect intentionally OPAC connections to foreign terrorist organizations
▶ 3:20:09I think and other illicit actors across National borders I think it could certainly help yes well Mr chairman that's why am excited to reintroduce my bill the foreign Affiliates pilot sharing program extension act very soon the bill extends a pilot program that allows financial institutions to share information about suspicious activity reports with their foreign Affiliates to combat illicit Financial activity the pilot program which was authorized through the anti-money laundry
▶ 3:20:39act but was never executed would only allow financial institutions to share that that there is a concern about incit actor but not what the concern is so I look forward to working with you Mr chairman this bill West pass under suspension last Congress so I look forward to working with you and the ranking member um to pass it again this congress with that a yeld back G lady yields the Goman from Michigan Mrs mlan conference chair is now recognized for five minutes
▶ 3:21:10thank you Mr chair um I think we all know China is a threat to our country um and every other country educationally militarily and economically yet we enable China by letting them benefit from these very institutions for example xiin Ping's daughter went to Harvard countless other children of the of their Elite seek education in this country and high ranking officials in the CCP
▶ 3:21:41have burrowed themselves into our financial institutions while they brainwash their poverty-stricken citizens about the evils of the West they themselves benefit from our institutions and if they move against our Democratic Ally Taiwan their free ride I believe should come to an end Mr M mizen I hope I'm saying that correctly um in your opinion how would cutting
▶ 3:22:11off high ranking CCP officials from our financial sector affect their behavior both individually and overreaching government policies congresswoman this is an answer I cannot respond to it this is really not in my expertise so so you don't have an opinion on how we should deal with high- officials
▶ 3:22:41to the extent to the extent that they're pursuing illegal or Corrupt Practices I'm sure the United States has enough tools to go against them my expertise is in multilateral institutions not so much in financial institutions that's why I don't really I'm not really in a position to answer your question and and do you have an opinion on um I think it is from a moral perspective it is um
▶ 3:23:12I think if Chinese ordinary citizens would hear about that they would SE question what is going on and so in that sense it is um it is something that um a conflict between what you do on what you say and I found that find that of course morally reprehensive is it safe to say and I don't want to put words in your mouth that actions should have consequences um certainly Chinese citizens should see whether they could not what about the
▶ 3:23:42high ranking officials that's what I mean I mean the consequences should be in China because that's in a way where the disadvantages are for their citizens I'm looking as well to protect our citizens our financial institutions and really try to detour the Chinese um and disincentivize them for taking advantage of our institutions whether it be educationally or our financial institutions and try to hold them
▶ 3:24:12accountable um we know they're bad actors so how do we hold them accountable and what incentives or disincentives do we put in place for the CCP to get them to be good actors which they have proven time and time again that they're not good actors what I've tried to do and what I am doing is I'm PR proud to lead the Taiwan conflict deterrence act along with my colleague um Sherman in this Congress I think it's very important in the event
▶ 3:24:43that China moves against Taiwan this bill will take effect and publish the financial institutions providing services to senior Chinese government officials I mean we're all about transparency right and it would prevent them from being able to live here in the US I mean I'll show it'll it'll show the the Chinese citizens who live under the repression and suffer daily that their hypocritical tyrannical leaders live lavishly
▶ 3:25:14by gifting and grifting off of their their their United States colleagues this bill has an exemption carv out for those who cooperate being the operative word with the United States and I would love to see which members of the elite have more loyalty to the US dollar than they do to German sh shiing ping I mean I think that would be kind of interesting um is there more in your opinion that Congress or other countries can do to use Financial tools
▶ 3:25:44to sway or incentivize or disincentivize the Mr I can't really answer your question Cong wonderful thank you I'm out of time yield G lady yelds uh the Goman from Georgia Mrs Williams is now recognized for five minutes thank you so with today's hearing my Republican colleagues are
▶ 3:26:14trying to find the most inflam way to say something that we all should agree on y'all the United States competitiveness in a global economy is a shared goal amongst Democrats and Republicans Independents people who don't even care about politics so why do we get partis hearing titles like examining policies to counter China my Republican colleagues would rather demonize an entire country for the fact the United States is lagging behind in global competitive competitiveness
▶ 3:26:44then talk about the real problem problem and the real problem you might ask is that my colleagues in the Republican Party have refused to invest in America for decades when Congress made historic investments in roads Bridges ports rail y'all we were on the right track but just catching up but unfortunately president Trump and his co-president Elon Musk refus to build on that progress instead they're gearing up today for a budget
▶ 3:27:15resolution that would roll back congress's historic Investments over the last four years and thus not to mention that they're crippling the very agencies that are making these Investments by firing as many federal employees as possible so let's really ask ourselves how do we make America competitive in a global economy so let's start by fixing this title there examining
▶ 3:27:45policies to count Elon Musk because that's what's what really needs to happen and if we don't want our government and economy to become the Laughing stop that Twitter became when Elon Musk took over it's time for us to take back our power as Congress article one section one of the Constitution Elon Musk doesn't want a serious discussion in this hearing because y'all he makes money when his Tesla stocks do well in China so let's stop
▶ 3:28:15pretending that the whole country of China is the problem when Elon Musk is right here in our country and is a huge problem so let's talk about policies to counter musk and his agenda of destroying investments in America and y'all the way that I was raised you take care of home first so let's talk about a few policies that hit right at the heart of what musk is doing to my fighting Fifth District in Atlanta Atlanta is home to the Centers for Disease Control and prevention and every
▶ 3:28:45dollar that we invest in public health it yields up to $88 that benefit our society Congress has been investing nearly 10 billion dollars per year in the CDC so we're talking about a potential value of 880 billion Dr Doshi what do you think if we stop making those Investments who's going to step up and get access to that $880 billion in Investments the research that we're doing how does that help our competitiveness with China
▶ 3:29:16does that benefit the us or China well uh thank you for the question Congressman I think over the last uh eight to 10 years there's been a growing bipartisan consensus on the need to invest in American competitiveness not just to focus on China although that's a principal challenge for us um but also to make ourselves more prosperous more secure and you know quite frankly uh more advanced when it comes to technology and so I think it's important for us to think about uh the chips and science act as a critical way of strengthening American Investment in the future of tech technology
▶ 3:29:46elements of the inflation reduction act which make the us more competitive in everything from batteries to EVS but batteries are relevant also for military Advantage uh and also uh infrastructure basic infrastructure China invests enormous sums in infrastructure we don't invest very much that's why right now Congressman Congressman our our percentage share of manufacturing has fallen from 30% to 15% in two decades while China has gone from 6% to 30% so I think more investment across the board is a priority and maybe something that's got bipartisan support I and it absolutely should be bipartisan and I look forward to
▶ 3:30:16working with my Republican colleagues on these very policies also Atlanta is home to the world's busiest and most efficient airport providing countless contributions to the United States position in the global economy Dr DOI if we don't have the air traffic controllers and the TSA agents that we need to keep Travelers safe and coming into America are people going to want to keep coming to the United States for Global Commerce or could that Competitive Edge also be taken by another country like China thank
▶ 3:30:46you for the question congresswoman I think American state capacity is one of those things that needs to be improved and some significant cuts to it without thinking about how to retain capacity in areas we already have can cause competitive disadvantage across the board including in the sector that you identified so I have many more questions because I also went into the grocery store this weekend and there's no eggs on the Shelf so my nine-year-old was quite upset when he can get his cheese eggs for breakfast on Sunday morning but we have a lot of issues lady's time has expired my time has expired now you're back Mr chairman
▶ 3:31:17gentle lady yields gentle woman from Texas Miss DEA Cruz Vice chair of subcommittee on housing insurance is now recognized for five minutes uh thank you so much um chairman and thank you to all the witnesses for being here today this is an important topic when we discuss China and uh the United States and the competitiveness especially there's so much going on in our country but one of the things that has affected americ Americans from Deep
▶ 3:31:47South Texas which is where I'm from to Chicago Atlanta California is fentol and the rise of fentanyl that has happened under the Biden Administration under the Biden Administration we saw fentol pouring into our borders we saw deaths um due to the fentol crisis that happened under the Biden Administration that being says fentanyl comes from China and has destroyed our
▶ 3:32:18families um I sat with mothers over the holidays who had Empty Chairs at their holiday tables because they lost a child or a spouse and so this is a very uh important and and difficult topic drug overdoses are the leading cause of deaths between 18 and 45 year olds with fentanyl being responsible for 70% of those overdoses one gram of fenol can kill
▶ 3:32:48potentially 500 people in Deep South Texas in the last Congress one of our brave Law Enforcement Officers found three gallons of fentanyl in South Texas that was enough to kill two times the size of Houston Texas can you imagine that just thousands and thousands of people who would be affected had that drug successfully gotten to its destination
▶ 3:33:18part of the solution is we need better border security and part is that we can do work on this committee to stop the financing of fentanyl I'm proud to say that last year my bill HR 1076 preventing the financing of illegal synthetic drugs Act was signed into law to start taking real steps to address the financing of these drugs so to my question uh Mr casara what role
▶ 3:33:49do does Chinese money laundering organizations calos play in laundering proceeds from drug trafficking and how critical are CML to the US drug trade thank you for the question I've have a perspective of decades going back anti-money laundering work and I've examined uh hemispheric laundering for example the Colombian Black Market peso
▶ 3:34:19exchange evolving into the Mexican black market peso exchange and then maybe 10 years ago or so the Chinese Chinese president Chinese moneya laundering organizations started to become the moneya launderers of choice for the cartels and they've pioneered Innovative methods of laundering why do you think that is why do I think that is I think that the Chinese um the Chinese are
▶ 3:34:49very skilled in what they do they uh very very good business people and they uh are incentivized to undercut their competitors they also take advantage of uh the Chinese presence here in the United States a lot of them are upstanding citizens but nevertheless some of these people wittingly or unwittingly get involved in taking some of this elicit money putting it into their regular business
▶ 3:35:20activities and laundering that money through underground Financial systems and mobile phone apps other other uh techniques and enablers that I describe in my testimony excellent and um what vulnerabilities in the US are CMOS most effectively exploiting and where do gaps in regulatory oversight persist I think the the biggest uh vulnerabilities that we have uh Visa
▶ 3:35:50Chinese moneya laundering organizations in the United States is their ability to bypass our most important anti-money laundering uh countermeasure which is financial intelligence Bank secrecy act information the techniques they use pretty pretty effectively go around these types of reporting requirements whether it be trade-based money laundering fight Chen flying money trade based value transfer this type of thing we need to crack down in this areas and
▶ 3:36:20once again in my written testimony I give some ideas and how that can be done thank you I yield back G lady yields the gentleman from Texas Mr Green ranking member of the subcommittee on oversight investigations is now recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and I thank you for your very kind and warm expression of an I would like to associate myself with the comments of the ranking
▶ 3:36:50member as they relate to China I think she spoke well and covered much of what I would say I do agree that there is a problem fentol but I'm also concerned about Russia I'm concerned about Russia because it seems that we have embarked upon a course of conduct cond that would allow us to reward Russian
▶ 3:37:21aggression you cannot reward aggression and assume that you will have peace I'm concerned about what's happening with Ukraine and this belief that somehow Ukraine is the aggressor and started War I think that we would have to suspend all of our common sense to agree with this premise because we saw the tanks
▶ 3:37:51moving into Ukraine it's very difficult to even consider the notion that one would now blame Ukraine for aggression it seems that our president unfortunately has embarked upon a course Russia wants to surrender no land taken president agrees that's
▶ 3:38:22Russia is Desiring that there be no security provided Ukraine looks like we're backing off but as we back away we will take Precious Minerals that Ukraine might have Russia is of the opinion that Ukraine should not be a part of NATO seems like our president president agrees that's appeasement I'm really concerned about the president's approach
▶ 3:38:52to Russia when on just yesterday we had a UN resolution blaming Russia for its encroachment its invasion of Ukraine we voted against that resolution the United States of America in 2023 a similar resolution was presented we voted for it
▶ 3:39:23has so much changed in such a short period of time that we would now support aggression I'm I'm concerned about China my colleagues on both sides have made good points but we cannot Overlook the fact that China and Russia are in bed together after China abstained yesterday on this resolution condemning
▶ 3:39:54Russia president Xi Jinping called called Putin presid called him and explained I'm with you we're neighbors there has to be some concern shown for what's happening with this country as it relates to Russia and the way we are turning our back on our allies what has
▶ 3:40:24what has Canada done to deserve this sort of treatment Canada has been a loyal faithful Ally of the United States for years upon Years yet we find ourselves now coing up to Putin directly and not sure that there's a lot of space between the efforts to Cozy up to to China with the president so here's my question
▶ 3:40:54and I'll ask a question of uh I'm hoping that I'll pronounce your name correctly sir uh let's see I have it here at the very end yes sir would you pronounce your name Dr DOI sir thank you okay thank you sir my question to you sir what signal did we send yesterday when we voted to to oppose blaming Russia for the invasion of Ukraine well thank you Congressman for the question I think China was
▶ 3:41:25watching that very closely they're interested in whether or not we will successfully pry Russia from China I think as you knowe that's very hard to do and we might be sending the signal that we wouldn't necessarily stand with Taiwan if the question were called Thank you thank you Mr chairman i y back chairman yields chairman from Wisconsin Mr style chair of the subcommittee on digital assets fintech and artificial intelligence is now recognized for 5 minutes thank you very much Mr chairman thank you all for being here this is a really important hearing uh I want to start with you
▶ 3:41:55U Mr mizen if I can uh in your testimony uh today you spoke about the importance of the United States dollar being the world Reserve currency how we maintain that position uh we're seeing advancements uh in China and artificial intelligence in AI a position where the United States has really been a leader for some time and as we look at the development of web 3.0 uh as we look at the need for the future the financial services space I think we have to focus on what's going to make sure that
▶ 3:42:25the US maintains its dominant position and if we look back uh to to web one Web 2.0 what you saw was a development that occurred inside the United States whatever your issue is with big Tech and I have plenty of them one of them with one exception really being Tik Tock is that these tech companies or at least do iled in the United States whether or not that's Google or Amazon Etc they're domiciled here and if we don't have rules and regulations of the road we risk allowing other
▶ 3:42:55countries to move forward to being and to outcompete the United States it needs to be a premise I believe for policy makers here to make sure that we are out competing other countries and in particular China and so the the question that I would have for you uh is it relates to China specifically is what regulatory approaches are they taking uh that can impact uh their financial services markets or us consumers I'm not an expert on the Chinese
▶ 3:43:26Financial system but it would behoove China as a big player to make sure also for the stability of its financial institutions to um uh make sure that their Investments are sound and that they um follow International um China's financial sector has many weaknesses including because of the crisis
▶ 3:43:56from the real estate sector and um the market for artificial intelligence cryptocurrencies and the like is very volatile and so from a presential perspective that would also minimize the potential spillovers to the rest of the world one would hope that China adopts very Prudential um regulations and and enforces those but but they're not today right I mean I think that's that's one of the big distinctions is that they're not really enforcing in a manner that the US markets are which is
▶ 3:44:26a which is a a benefit to us consumers and US investors um I don't know exactly what what standards you mean that they're not enforcing again I don't know too much about the Chinese financial sector Pro let let me let me let me shift and come to you Mr casar if I can you wrote an essay last year China's digital authoritarianism uh is coming our way um can you just put a little meat on the bone on digital authoritarianism uh and what Financial levers the CCP
▶ 3:44:56uh has at its disposal there's a lot of discussion about U Central Bank digital currency the concern of that I share a lot of those concerns could you could you comment thank you for the question yes I'm concerned as well about the Chinese development of the Central Bank digital currency that exactly why I wrote the article there are various models as you know of Central Bank digital currencies but what concerns me the most is what I call the Chinese model or the authoritarian model because
▶ 3:45:26they overlay it with um social monitoring social control social scoring intensive and intrusive surveillance um and basically they're doing this to control their population and they can do this basically with the flip of a switch they can monetize a citizen that individual is not able to uh to get on a Metro not able to pay for their child's education not able to buy groceries this type of thing it scares me from a civil
▶ 3:45:57libertarian perspective and I don't want that model to be adopted here or anywhere else 100% share your concern is something we're going to have to remain Vigilant of to make sure that we don't allow a federal government of the United States to have that type of control and my final minute left I want to come to you uh Mr Miller um AI going to be critical development of new technology here uh in the United States a question that we're going to be looking at is how do we make sure that we're extending the Trump tax cuts in particular on the R&D um or or
▶ 3:46:27accelerated depreciation in 20 seconds could explain the importance of that as relates to financial services uh yeah absolutely I mean we should be doing everything we can to incentivize R&D including through uh the tax code I mean every every dollar saved quite frankly through uh through through taxes as being plowed by American companies back final five seconds you'd agree that that has a direct impact on the investment that's needed for AI and the technology thank you very much Mr chairman I yield back Gman yields Gman from
▶ 3:46:57Nebraska Mr flood chairman of the subcommittee on housing insurance is now recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman maybe somebody's bugged the doors to this chamber they seem to keep opening on their own today uh Mr casara in your testimony I found it was interesting you wrote at length on a customs fraud which is when an importer and exporter work together to misrepresent the value of goods transferred for illicit
▶ 3:47:27reasons and given president Trump's interest in using tariffs on Chinese Goods I would imagine that Customs fraud could become even more common the next four years do you agree with uh that assessment how would authorities work to combat that and uh particularly how would we combat that from Chinese vendors looking to um tariffs thank you for the question I believe that trade-based moneya laundering and value transfer
▶ 3:47:57is probably the largest most pervasive moneya laundering methodology in the world today if you if you take into consideration all the various um iterations of it and various uh various models as far as countermeasures go it's very hard because what happens is the occasional illicit transaction gets intermingled with the overwhelming lit trade transactions because trade volume is so
▶ 3:48:28high it's very very difficult to pick out those isolated illicit transactions nevertheless the volume of trade being so high the amount of tbml is off the charts and we don't have good counter measures in place the best countermeasure in my estimation is something I came up with a number of years ago that was adopted by the US government that's a formulation of trade transparency units or ttus looking at Customs data between countries spotting those anomalies between
▶ 3:48:58trade it's going to be very very problematical particularly with countries like China um but it's something we have to we have to look at thank you I appreciate that um one of the things I find very interesting about China's extend ition of credit to these developing nations is that has led to a serious default risk 60% of China's overseas lending was owed by countries experiencing debt distress in 2022 but yet they're all
▶ 3:49:28over the African continent they are expanding their reach Mr mule heisen at some point inability to pay back Hefty loans will start to become a problem for China but they can also use their loans as leverage to obtain unrelated concessions from developing Nations is seeking troubled customers for their loans a feature or a bug as it relates to China's Global strategy I would say that looking for geopolitical
▶ 3:49:58allies in developing countries and Emerging Markets is a feature um putting countries into dead distress I don't want to say it's it's a feature it's probably a bit more than a bug it's maybe carelessness but it certainly something that as I said in my statement uh China should be held responsible for and I have various proposals there um uh especially the imf's lending into official areas policy do you think that
▶ 3:50:29um how that how should that change our national strategy around international finance should we be more aggressive ourselves or is China's strategy unsustainable in the term China will certainly take losses um from its strategy like many countries before it have already done over the last century but the the growing demand or the the demand for these loans also reflects a big need on the part of the recipient countries and
▶ 3:51:00the United States has a chance to leverage its own capital in the international financial institutions uh by extending loans to these countries to compete but also by using these institutions to provide not necessarily monetary incentives but other geopolitical incentives or trade incentives to get back into closer relations with low-income and developing countries there is a need to compete because right now there
▶ 3:51:30is one kid on the block with a lot of money in its pockets and they're spending it like crazy I'm going to stop you right there I just want to say before my time is up thank you for the discussion on one hand it's clear that many Americans are not interested in further extending our Global reach and feel we need to be more focused on what's Happening Here at home I understand that sentiment but China isn't going to sit back China will be aggressive in expanding their influence through whatever means they have available and I'm interested in working to figure out what we can do
▶ 3:52:00to project American power in a way that's costeffective and sensible without running a foul of legitimate sentence uh Sentiments of many that we need to remain focused on what's going on at home and with that Mr chairman I yield back chairman yields gentleman from Indiana Mr stman is now recognized for 5 minutes thank you Mr chairman and and thank you gentlemen for being here today uh very important topic and interesting topic and one that obviously is going to affect not only us but future Generations here in America um Mr McMurray I'd like to come to you and uh
▶ 3:52:30talk a little bit about how uh energy security is National Security and uh so my district in Northeast Indiana uh we are a heavy manufacturing and egg District we have a heavy footprint um and so we were rely on an abundance of energy of all types uh we just actually had a Google announce that they're going to be putting in a data center in the district which consumes a lot of energy and so there's a concern about um our ability to uh to maintain a sustain strong energy
▶ 3:53:01uh Supply and dependence um and sustainability uh you know we've generally in in Indiana we rely on affordable energy but lately we' felt some pain uh after the previous administration so I'm I'm really looking forward to working with my colleagues in Congress to make sure that uh we here in the United States dominate in the energy uh Supply and production so as we saw you know president Trump took significant steps um to move us in that direction I'd like to talk to you or
▶ 3:53:31ask a little bit about the ifis um like the World Bank what disadvantages do us energy companies currently face in their attempts to secure International Energy financing projects yeah thank you Congressman as you said energy security is National Security and right now we need to make it easier for us companies to be able to build and compete abroad um right now that's very challenging when it comes to different stain not Enterprises
▶ 3:54:01that can offer very lucrative financing packages and leveraging either our institution such as XM or DFC or you know entities like the World Bank can help put you know our company on a Level Playing Field there's a big opportunity this congress with both XM and DFC needing to be reauthorized to give them more tools so us companies can compete which will also have direct benefits for us jobs do the Chinese firms are in the state backed energy firms do they face the
▶ 3:54:31similar disadvantages um in some cases no they don't comply by oecd rules so they can offer you know financing packages that are more competitive than what other countries can offer that is also where entities like CP China transformational exports programs part of XM and the DFC are tailored to be able to try to compete with those financing packages I mean we know China plays by their own set of rules um any suggestions
▶ 3:55:02or any reforms that you would suggest needed here in the United States um to maintain to and to outpace China yeah I think first domestically we have to make it easier for us companies to be able to build in many cases countries are going to want to see projects built in the US before they are sold abroad um that requires improving the probing system that requires continued Investments and support to Innovative companies through the department of energy and the National Labs and then
▶ 3:55:32it requires predictability for these companies to be able to make investments in the long term looking globally that's where the upcoming reauthorization has the ability to kind of sharpen some of those tools to expand ible technologies that XM is able to support also make it very clear of what is the right metric or outcome that should be that XM should be focused on such as jobs and so taking that together can really help us companies compete globally and ensure that the US is a player when it's looking um
▶ 3:56:02when it is considered by other countries yeah and I know that you know in Indiana U of course we used to be a CO producing state a lot of coal power um now we're shifting more to Natural Gas a lot of talk about nuclear um what are seems like the permitting process is always the piece that hangs us up can that be streamlined what could be done to make our permitting process better yeah the Indiana's Governor is making great strides in trying to attract nuclear to the state and as well as working with other states which
▶ 3:56:32I think is really exciting opportunity to deploy nuclear here in the US um as for the perming process I used to work at the nuclear Regulatory Commission so there have been a lot of prog there has been a lot of progress at the NRC there's also been a lot of bipartisan support in Congress to improve the licensing process just last Congress um both the house and the Senate um enacted with overwhelming bipartisan support the advance act and energy and commerce's Bill the atomic energy advancement act really tried to tailor a couple key Provisions to
▶ 3:57:02improve the licensing and permitting process at the NRC so those companies can have better you know outcomes and better predictability yeah well thank you I appreciate your comments and I just know that we've got the ability we've got the knowhow we've got everything in place we just need to make sure government doesn't stand in the way of progress and uh we need to continue to uh make sure our nuclear power is uh is at the Forefront of our minds and we can outpace China so thank you I yield back jman yields gentleman from Iowa Mr nun Vice
▶ 3:57:33chair of the subcommittee on National Security is now recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and appreciate you all joining us for this very important conversation on China and its role in the world I'm coming at it from a decade plus as a Counter Intelligence officer working out a facilities running operations in guango I now serve on the China select committee we've all seen firsthand how dangerous China can be in its predatory lending practices you know here in the United States we very much support a open opportunity
▶ 3:58:03for free trade for mercantilism for the opportunity for an entrepreneur to really take off obviously China has a much more opaque closed system one that not only suppresses its own population but one that will cannibalize its own industry and that of others to try and effectively take over countries and how they operate we've seen this since 2017 as China being the world's largest official creditor and this is concerning to the Global Financial system because it's cheap it's predatory its infrastructural
▶ 3:58:33AIDS aimed to buy up Global influence undercut other countries export and distort International Trade I mean if this was a used car company it would have been shut down a long time ago but the reality is here they've been able to lead an entire initiative the belt and Road initiative that has targeted a number of areas specifically of interest to China and develop Nations now over 10% of their GDP to the Chinese State Pakistan owes China $77 billion
▶ 3:59:03in climbing Sri Lanka 11 billion Kenya 9 billion the list goes on and on all areas where China has purchased and now owns its way to controlling these countries and certainly their governments the time to combat China I think we all agree is not yesterday but it was is today um it's not in the next 10 years the greatest threat from China is not its military I would offer Mr chairman it's their economic tactics including intellectual property theft to drain
▶ 3:59:34uh skills and inventions created right here in the United States as well as pull our trade jobs and other profits outside of our country it's one of the reasons I'm so proud to be working with this committee on a bill that I led called the neutralizing unfair Chinese subsidy Act of 2025 it's to counter China's predatory lending practices now Mr mulen Zen you are an expert on Chinese lending do you agree that we need a strategy here in the US to combat these destabilizing tactics and ensure that China follows oecd's
▶ 4:00:04Arrangement on officially supported export credits I agree with what you just said about what happens and also I agree with what you just proposed talk to us a little bit when we talk about neutralizing unfair Chinese subsidies how China has done this not just in the past but how it continues to be a predatory lender in the space well China has pursued two objectives first it wanted to export its construction services
▶ 4:00:35to generate jobs at home and second uh it it U acquired strategic advantages in exchange for its loans for many countries and it um has not in my opinion shrunk back from all sorts of means to um sway decisions into the um into companies getting Chinese companies orders um but it also has affected the quality of the projects and I think it's it's backfiring on China countries would
▶ 4:01:05I think prefer not to have to pay a lot of money for projects that are either not really providing an economic return or have to to be repaired and replaced within a short period absolutely right in fact it ends up costing everybody more in the long run uh Mr Miller you are a leader here when it comes to addressing you know what America does I think very well in the world competitive bids being able to grow harnessing innovation in a way that really takes off it's one of the reasons why
▶ 4:01:35nine of the top 10 companies valued over a trillion dollars reside right here in the United States how many reside in zero and that's a direct result of a state-owned entity which capitalizes on everything I think that there's no accident here the free market helps us Foster our Innovation could you explain the importance of strengthening our American markets on the international scene with the time that we have left uh sure I'd be happy to do that I mean you're you're you're absolutely right that um
▶ 4:02:05uh you know to say that that we need to focus on economics and economic security and not just view China as a as a national security threat again not not stating that at all but we really need a balanced and holistic approach to this entire uh set of issues we we released a paper today on economic security that offers 10 recommendations you know to dealing with everything from sanctions and investment reviews to you know trade policy um and and other uh and other Innovation friendly policies and we
▶ 4:02:36really need to to to double down on our strengths that you weren't here for the chair's opening statement but he mentioned that you know beating China means doubling down on us strengths and I completely agree with that Mr Miller I yield my time back just to say thank you for providing a Playbook that this government can start using today with that I yield my time thank you Mr chair the gentleman yields we would like to thank all the witnesses for your testimony today without objection all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the
▶ 4:03:06chair questions will be forwarded to the witness for his response Witnesses please respond no later than March 31st 2025 this hearing is
▶ 4:04:42e for