▶ 0:03:28for for
▶ 0:04:02order without objection uh the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time this is the first hearing for the Commerce Justice science and related activity subcommittee of Congress I'm honored to serve as chairman of this important subcommittee we have a few new members of the subcommittee or our side of the aisle uh Mr
▶ 0:04:32offord from Missouri uh Mr strong from Alabama who will also serve as the subcommittee's vice chair and Mr Moore of West Virginia we welcome each of you and the returning members including Mr Carter Mr Klein Mr Gonzalez and Mr CL we're also lucky to have con woman Ming serving as the ranking
▶ 0:05:02member of subcommittee ranking member Ming has served on this subcommittee for several years now uh and we will rely on her input and expertise as we move forward this year she's joined by her side on her side by Mr Ivy of Maryland Mr melli of New York M dean of Pennsylvania and Mr Maran of uh Indiana so welcome to all
▶ 0:05:32returning and new members of the subcommittee we will follow the U five minute rule for questions of course I don't plan on cutting anyone off in in a mids um I'll recognize members in order of seniority based on who's present at the beginning of the hearing going back and forth between parties for those arriving after I strike the gavel I will recognize you in the order that you
▶ 0:06:03arrive continuing to go back and forth between the parties while I'm sure that we will not always agree on the issues before the subcommittee all members and witnesses will be heard and respected with that I'd like to welcome our witness today associate deputy director Kathleen Tumi to this oversight hearing on the Bureau of Prisons uh she's no stranger to us because she's been serving
▶ 0:06:34this Agency for a good bit um so thank you for taking the time to appear with us uh to discuss the bureau's operations challenges and accountability to the American people the Bop plays a critical role in maintaining Public Safety ensuring secure and Humane incarceration and preparing inmates for reintegration
▶ 0:07:05society at a time when the federal prison system faces mounting challenges ranging from Staffing shortages to aging infrastructure to a growing inmate population it's imperative that we examine how taxpayer dollars are being used to meet these needs today's hearing will allow us to assess bop's progress and identity areas identify areas where improvements are
▶ 0:07:37necessary specifically I want to discuss ongoing concerns relating to the agency's ability to recruit and retain qualified correctional officers the conditions of confinement within Federal facilities and the bureau's continued Reliance on high cost low Staffing models that leave employees overworked and Facilities vulnerable a pressing issue we must address
▶ 0:08:08is the bureau's growing inmate population and the increasing strain this places on its facilities the rise in inmate numbers Demands a careful assessment of whether Bop has the capacity infrastructure and Staffing to manage this growth while maintaining safety and efforts additionally we must discuss BP's footprint
▶ 0:08:38across the country ensuring that facilities are properly located and resourced to meet the current and future needs of our federal system I remain encouraged by the bureau's continued work on the proposed leer facility and look for forward to seeing further progress on this critical project the bureau's approval of the Leer County facility last October
▶ 0:09:09is an important step in addressing both capacity challenges and providing economic opportunities for the region as Bop continues to assess and prioritize its infrastructure needs ensuring that projects like leer stay on track is essential will'll be watching this project closely as its approval and completion will be an important factor in evaluating the bureau's broader
▶ 0:09:39facility planning efforts finally uh I fully recognize Congress has not yet completed fiscal year 25 funding and uh that we are not yet in receip of the fiscal year 2026 budget request but I expect a candid discussion of the bureau's budget needs based on historical Trends while we understand that maintaining
▶ 0:10:10secure and functional institutions requires resources we must ensure that every dollar spent is Justified additional funding cannot always be the answer we must be creative in addressing the bureau's needs while ensuring that strategic plans incorporate fiscally responsible Solutions any long-term strategy must consider cost effective
▶ 0:10:40approaches improved resource allocation and Innovative management practices to maximize efficiency without excessive Financial burdens associate deputy director Tumi uh look forward to your testimony to an honest discussion of how the Bureau of presidents can best fulfill its Mission now I want to recognize ranking member Ming
▶ 0:11:10for any remarks she cares to make thank you Mr chairman although I've been on the subcommittee for several years as was mentioned this is my first hearing as ranking member uh chairman Rogers I enjoyed our previous meetings and I look forward to working closely with you and your team um I want to welcome the new members on our side Mr Ivy Miss Dean and Mr morvan as new members of the subcommittee and also welcome back uh Congressman Morelli
▶ 0:11:41uh and also welcome to the new members on the Republican side Mr Alfred Mr strong and Mr Moore I'm looking forward to working with all of our subcommittee members uh on the man at hand acting deputy director Tumi thank you for being here you have a a difficult job and it seems to be getting more challenging each day first and foremost the Bop has been facing Staffing shortfalls for years including amongst correctional
▶ 0:12:12officers this under Staffing problem risks creating a dangerous situation for officers and inmates alike Corrections work is tough dangerous work in the best circumstances but on a bad day officers or inmates can be injured or even killed so I say I can say with no exaggeration I view the staffing issues facing the Bop uh as a life and death matter we must do better
▶ 0:12:42not only in protecting the life and safety of our Corrections Officers and the inmates at the 120 Bop facilities but also in terms of ensuring the success of the first step act according to the GAO 45% of people released from federal prison are rearrested or returned within 3 years which raises questions about how effectively Bop is implementing and administering the first
▶ 0:13:12step act over 12,000 Corrections Officers go to work in our federal prison system every day as I said they do a very difficult and dangerous job they are joined by thousands more staff who are not Frontline officers but are there to teach provide medical care and psychological care some of whom may be brought onto guard Duty through the process known as augmentation while I know that bop's staff are set up for any task
▶ 0:13:42assigned to them the reality is that when folks who are there to help prisoners in other ways get augmented into working as guards they're not teaching life skills or trades to inmates and that jeopardizes progress under the bipartisan first step act make no mistake we need to Comm keep our communities safe people who have harmed their communities and remain a danger to their communities should be locked up but as the cost of incarceration continues to rise it
▶ 0:14:12does not do us any good if reism rates remain as high as GAO says they are again the bureau has to do better finally even with the problems facing Bop this Administration is seeking to further complicate bop's operating posture by proposing to house detained migrants in Bop facilities this proposal raises legal questions about housing civil detainees as criminals and of critical importance
▶ 0:14:43to the subcommittee this plan could require hundreds of millions of dollars to house another 6,000 migrants in Bop facilities further straining all aspects of the prison system acting deputy director I understand you are not the architect of this plan but it will have a dramatic impact on the bureau this subcommittee will need many more details about how this concept of a plan is to be implemented I understand that these problems did not
▶ 0:15:13develop overnight over the last 20 years the doj Inspector General has issued over a hundred reports detailing significant enterprise-wide issues facing the Bop there's a lot of work to do to fix bop's issues even with the additional challenges of the migrant detention plan the potential firing of probationary staff and the funding limitations of the fiscal responsibility act these will only add more stress to the federal prison system at
▶ 0:15:43a time when it appears already dangerously close to the breaking point Thank you Mr chairman I back uh so associate deputy director Timmy you're recognized for an opening statement without objection your written statement will be entered in the record and we hope that you can summarize in minutes thank
▶ 0:16:13you chairman Rogers good afternoon chairman Rogers ranking member mang and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Federal Bureau of Prisons bop's mission is unique we house clothe feed educate and Prov provide medical care for the federal inmate population there are over 153,000 Federal offenders in our custody we have over 36,000 employees including near nearly 1,600 Brave correctional officers
▶ 0:16:43who ensure that 12 120 facilities across the country are safe Humane and secure appropriately filling positions in every Bop facility is a top priority because it is essential for the well-being of our employees and the safety of those in our care our use of Recruitment and Retention incentives direct higher authority and sophisticated recruitment strategies are effective in filling vacant positions in 2024 we had a net gain of 1,200 employees our best year in
▶ 0:17:13a decade in addition overall Staffing percentages for clinical medical positions and nurses are up 6% from last year despite this unprecedented progress we still have more than 4,000 vacant positions Bop uses Recruitment and Retention incentives and overtime pay to address its Staffing shortage incentives and overtime pay are temporary measures for securing our institutions neither is a costeffective long-term strategy for running an agency
▶ 0:17:44in fiscal year 2024 we paid $229 million in incentives and $438 million in overtime in in since fiscal year 2024 Bop salaries have increased 7.2% % due to mandatory pay raises that's an average increase of $20 million per pay period as a result we have paused consideration of any new pay incentives eliminated some existing incentives and reduced overtime to the greatest extent possible
▶ 0:18:14consistent with safety security and First Step act implementation we know that higher Staffing levels make institutions safer in 2024 a 35% retention incentive at Metropolitan Detention Center Brooklyn substantially increased Staffing that led to fewer lockdowns decreased uses of force and a safer institution insufficient Staffing creates risk for employees and those in our care for example it can reduce inmate
▶ 0:18:44access to timely Quality Medical Care and it can negatively impact the personal health of the people who work for us while we continue to prioritize hiring we are making we are making significant changes to reduce cost and maximize our use of existing resources for example we reduced all operating budgets by 20% we've paused most employee training and travel and we eliminated free inmate phone calls which were previously most free inmate phone calls which were
▶ 0:19:14previously funded by the car's act as was Staffing there is widespread consensus that our crumbling infrastructure in dangers our employees and those in our care Bop maintains 120 institutions and everyone needs repair the Department's Inspector General has found that many of our facilities are literally crumbling this is a direct result of a growing list of unfunded modernization and repair needs across Bop more
▶ 0:19:44than 4,000 beds are unusable due to dangerous conditions like leaking or failing roofs mold asbest or lead 4,000 beds is the equivalent of two to three entire prisons to help address the $3 billion modernization repair backlog Bop developed a 5-year Capital plan that plan is structured to ensure all critical needs are systematically addressed by breaking down the repair
▶ 0:20:14needs into specific categories by fiscal year we carefully balance our use of existing funding to address known as well as emergent needs lastly we greatly appreciate the recent support from Congress in providing $65 million to address Bop facilities damaged by Major weather disasters we will need the continued support of Congress to stabilize Bop capitalize on our recent progress and set us on a path to fulfill our mission of ensuring Public Safety and preparing
▶ 0:20:45inmates for release chairman Rogers ranking member mang and members of the subcommittee Bop is a critical part of the Federal Criminal Justice System our mission is extremely challenging but so important to to the Safety and Security of the public those in our care and our staff I thank you for the opportunity to speak here today and I look forward to answer your questions director tumy thank you for that
▶ 0:21:16summary we will now proceed under the five minute rule with questions for the witness I'll begin by myself Bop facilities continue to experience significant Staffing shortages it's the top concern I hear from poop employees who work at facilities in my district over the past few fiscal years this subcommittee
▶ 0:21:46has outlined different actions the bureau could and should explore to address this issue what specific steps has the bureau taken to recruit and retain correction officers particularly in hardto fill locations thank you for the question chairman bop's undertaken a number of different steps we have a national recruitment office that is charged
▶ 0:22:17with providing Nationwide support for recruitment for Bop positions but also provides specialize support to specific locations that are really struggling Tire So currently the national recruitment office office supports provides additional support to about 27 institutions that are difficult especially difficult to fill and those institutions can be any place across the country could be urban areas could be rural areas but National recruitment office provides additional support to them in recruiting in identifying
▶ 0:22:47applicants and in providing whatever support they need for the recruitment efforts uh last May the bureau was successful in getting OPM approval for direct hire Authority for Corrections officers that has proven extremely valuable in helping us to expedite the process for Corrections Officers and it really streamlines the hiring process and that has been a very very successful tool that we've used we have significantly increased our recruitment on
▶ 0:23:17social media in the community um people at Boop are very very creative about how to recruit for these jobs you will often find wardens managers senior Executives carrying business cards for the bureau handing them out to people who they think might be a good recruit local nursing school other types of things so I think it's a it's an all Hands-On deck effort to recruit for positions um we do we have used recruitment incentives for Corrections Officers uh the incentive has been
▶ 0:23:47$10,000 or 25% of the first year salary whichever is greater we have also provide specialized incentives for medical positions or for other difficult to fill positions what role uh has the office of personnel management played in addressing these shortages and do you believe direct higher authority is being utilized effectively do I believe
▶ 0:24:18that direct hire Authority is utilized effectively yes I do how has the shortage uh of St how has that impacted safety at the prisons both for correctional officers and for inmates have we seen an increase in violence as a result the shortage of of Staffing um creates a number of different challenges and dangers in Bop
▶ 0:24:48facilities um it we find that in facilities where there's a shortage that we may have employees who are are working mandatory overtime that we hear often hear reports of employees who are exhausted they're not getting enough sleep and they simply don't have the ability to do as good a job as they might if they were receiving an appropriate amount of rest and and time off of work we um there are numerous Inspector General reports and goo
▶ 0:25:18reports that have linked the shortage of Staffing to um employees uh employees not not being able to provide the services that they ought to provide in the population um Staffing also shortage of Staffing also leads to lockdown of facilities so it so it can impact the ability of individuals to participate in First Step act programming to receive visits to go to Medical it can impact
▶ 0:25:49any number of of aspects of life really in a bureau facility can you provide uh an update on retention and if and where're implemented whether they've had measurable success in reducing Staffing gaps yes Congressman so as I'm sure you know we made an announcement yesterday that we are
▶ 0:26:19eliminating some retention incentives and we are reducing others by 50% um we have had very good six that that announcement will impact about 20,000 PE 27,000 people across across Bop across the uh sorry 23,000 staff at institutions um incentive ret retention incentives have been extremely valuable in keeping people
▶ 0:26:49on the job at Bop we have a lot of places Corrections Officers are not paid very much the starting salary was somewhere between 50 and $60,000 depend depending on where you live um and retention incentives have proven to be a very very viable means of keeping people in what is a very very difficult job thank you ma'am um I think the engineers are prepared to replace the mic is that
▶ 0:27:23yeah we apologize for this ma'am
▶ 0:28:27e e
▶ 0:29:05okay testing is it working okay thank you Miss May your recognize thank you Mr chairman um director Tumi you just talked about the new policy as of yesterday where Bop informed staff that it will reduce retention bonuses by 50% for most employees uh and end
▶ 0:29:35them completely for staff in seven facilities including Miami which is about to receive an influx of detained migrants from Ice it's my understanding that as part of this announcement Bop will no longer be able to provide student loan repayment to new hires which could have a devastating impact on your ability to recruit and retain medical staff this is a cruel cut to the paychecks of a lot of hardworking men and women who protect our Public Safety every day and as a
▶ 0:30:05result of these changes I'm afraid that you'll see more staff quit forcing the remaining staff to work more overtime and be augmented and will no doubt eat up a lot of the savings from ending retention bonuses we're in an extremely tight budget environment that may get even tighter if the administration continues the practice of impounding funds um I wanted to ask what's the rationale for this decision um and has doj submitted a reprogramming
▶ 0:30:36request under Section 505 for this proposal thank you for the question uh the rationale is um simply that in simply that we cannot afford to continue paying incentives at the level that we are paying them uh in 2023 fiscal year 23 Congress gave Bop $164 million to fund retention incentives those were very effective sorry
▶ 0:31:06excuse me to fund incentives overall um that that was very effective and we used that money very very well last year we we took money from our base budget in addition of the 164 million and we paid about $220 million in incentives last year we also absorbed a 5% pay cut that we took out of our base budget this year there was another 2% pay raise that we've taken out of our base budget we simply don't have the
▶ 0:31:36resources to continue paying incentives at a level beyond the 164 million appropriated by Congress so the changes that we've made are to bring us back in line so we will fully utilize the 164 million that Congress appropriated but we do not have additional funding from our base budget to continue with those incentives are there other steps that you are taking to manage costs outside of cutting staff paychecks at the facilities um for example management
▶ 0:32:09travel yes so we uh this was a decision we really struggled over it was not one made lightly and it came only after we had undertaken a number of other significant steps to try to manage uh the bud so in the last um last year we eliminated all incentives for anyone in our central office or the vast majority of them
▶ 0:32:39um we El we cut operating budgets for the central office divisions last year and we've taken a number of other steps to reduce costs First beginning in Washington with central office to not that would not impact the field this year we have had to make further and deeper Cuts so we've cut all operating budgets but across the bureau um which is about $130 million in savings we as I mentioned before we eliminated free phone calls for inmates
▶ 0:33:10except to the extent that they are used as incentives for First Step act program and we continue to pay those out of our dedicated First Step act funds we've saved $10 million by moving to lower cost drugs in some cases where medically appropriate particularly those for medication assisted treatment we've canceled plan spending on technology upgrades to medical equipment food equipment um we've we've
▶ 0:33:40looked every every place across the bureau that we can think of to try to to try to identify cuts that we could take and reductions we could make um before we got to the incentives thank you and I want to quickly talk about the first step act which as you know was signed into law by President Trump in 2018 um I'm concerned about further Staffing reductions as a result of resignations will inevitably mean sharp reductions in Bop programs
▶ 0:34:11and activities for people under the first step act um concerned that any further Staffing reduction will create an even greater dependence on augmentation uh which will take Bop skills teachers who should be helping uh to in the long term reduce recidivism um and just wanted to know your thoughts about that so the good news on the first step Act is that last year we have some dedicated
▶ 0:34:41positions funded from our first step act funding dedicated to First Step act implementation and we were able to almost double the number of onboard positions last year from about 350 to over to about 700 so those are dedic those are paid out of FSA funding and and that doubled um we are um we are working to continue programming to the greatest extent that we can and as I've said we're really working to identify additional Cuts additional
▶ 0:35:11savings any place that we can that does not come directly from incentives or other things that Impact Staff um and we will continue to do that to try to manage as well as we can with regards specifically augmentation everyone in Bureau leadership is aware of and understands the need to reduce our Reliance on augmentation the I think the fundamental problem especially to anyone who's new to to beop is augmentation when you're hired to work in an institution you are hired
▶ 0:35:41as a law enforcement officer first you attend training at like any corrections officer although maybe you're working a different job so everyone has the same basic level of training um we do we are working to um to implement mement uh the requirements of the federal prison oversight act to reduce our our Reliance on augmentation but when we don't use augmentation then we have to pay overtime and so that just continues contributes to overtime so either the the way to to
▶ 0:36:12the way to make sure posts are man is either we have to have enough people so we have to continue Staffing and we have to be able to retain those people or we augment which takes someone away from their other duties but doesn't cost us extra money or we don't augment and we pay overtime to pay the the position the only other choice is to lock down a housing unit which then deprives all the individuals in our care and that housing unit of the ability to attend programming or engage in other productive activities go to jobs other things like
▶ 0:36:42that judge Carter thank you Mr chairman deputy director tumy thank you very much for being here um there's been a notable rise in violent instance within the federal facilities particularly against officers what initiatives is Bop undertaking to ensure that violent offenders faced immediate and severe
▶ 0:37:13consequences do current disciplinary policies need strengthening to deter such violence and should there be stricter penalties for inmates who assault Federal officers thank you thank you for the question it is an issue that we take very very seriously I mean I think the first answer to your question is when there are tax on Corrections Officers we work very closely with the FBI the Department of Justice us attorney's offices to ensure that
▶ 0:37:43violence of that type is prosecuted we do the same for introduction of Contraband and Facilities which can also lead to violence with against Corrections Officers right the use of illicit drugs or other things in facilities um we have um I think that the question of whether penalties should be strengthened for um those in our custody for uh various Ty types of misconduct within the facility is really a question best left for
▶ 0:38:13the new director what I will tell you is we have a um we have a well-developed framework for discipline of individuals who engage in any kind of misconduct in the bureau and we work very hard to make sure that that's implemented and followed I am a former state district judge and uh visited my prisoners in prison that I put over there I was I did a lot of criminal work uh do these people get indicted
▶ 0:38:44and retried for the additional offense that they committed in prison yes they do that's up to the FBI they come and investigate it and they turn it over the justice department we we work closely with FBI to investigate those things the inspector General's office sometimes is involved in investigations depending on what it is and we also work very closely with the US attorney's offices so you know we we discuss with the US attorney's Community the need to take those cases seriously right and to to help us with those cases and I think we're getting a
▶ 0:39:14good response from the US attorney community so that's what's supposed to happen now we've got a big rise in these attacks have they been prosecuted and and additional time given to these people in the last 18 months or two years there are a number of instances yes of individuals that have been tried for various violent acts within the bureau when they're in Bureau custody yes and they're they are tried and sentenced
▶ 0:39:44if they're found guilty yes well do you know what the offense for attempting murder is and and I don't know the Federal Offense for I don't know I'm sorry Congress okay Congressman yeah well if you need to make it rougher I'll be glad to write a lot a bill to make it tougher thank you okay thank you ma'am Mr melli yes thank you
▶ 0:40:14uh for being here and thank you Mr chair and ranking member for holding this hearing um in your testimony and you may have responded to this I didn't think uh there were question was question about the um backlog of Maintenance Pro projects um and the development of 5-year Capital plan I think you mentioned it in your testimony um could you talk a little bit more about the different categories of infrastructure and uh facility maintenance um repairs that are needed and um how you're prioritizing
▶ 0:40:45those projects yes thank you so we have what we estimate to be A3 billion doll modernization and repair backlog last year over the last year we've developed a five-year plan that would attack a large part of that not not the entire part um but we prioritized in terms of developing that plan we prioritized um systems that would make institutions safer make them more secure stabilize the infrastructure and also bring
▶ 0:41:15bed space back online so those were the criteria that we used the categories within that um plan our things like Safety Systems so fire alarm sprinklers fire pumps duress systems things right that we need to keep it safe roofs we have there are more than there are 65 Roofing projects just on that plan on the fiveyear plan uh security so perimeter fencing the controls that open doors in prisons um various types of other
▶ 0:41:46technology needed to keep the prison safe and so those are just a few examples of the types of categories that we're using in the plan so the plan sets out specific repairs at facil facilities by fiscal year and by the type of repair that it is and we have our facilities team has worked hard to try to balance that across the country across the types of repairs based on how urgent the KN for repair is while also maintaining some flexibility because we do have unexpected
▶ 0:42:16events right Bureau facilities are impacted by weather other types of things that may cause us to have to reshuffle what's on the priority list in terms of what can get repair so so um and I think you mentioned uh bed space is um I know in your testimony again you mentioned you 153,000 uh in custody today how does that compare to uh numbers just five years ago or what the trend lines are but you don't give exact
▶ 0:42:46number it's it's I think it's a slight increase over what it was five years ago the 153,000 includes those who are in prison as well as about 9,000 that are in residential re-entry Center are in the community so it's a combine number so is is the the the bed space is that due to an expectation that the population will grow or is it just redesigning or what is that exactly so the so the bed space issue is that we have facilities where it's simply not safe to have individuals in those beds so you might visit
▶ 0:43:17a prison where there are six housing units and two of them might be closed because they're simply not fit for for use and there may the other four may be open there are um and so the our goal would be to be bring the beds that are at existing facilities back online right so that we would have a greater ability to use our the beds within our existing inventory gotcha um and you talked to Fair number about and mentioned um just
▶ 0:43:47Staffing um and I'm looking here I thought I saw the number uh the number of correction officers you have now is roughly 16,000 a little under that and it was 19,000 I don't know why I can't find the number but you oh right here 19,000 in just a decade ago 15 a little under 16,000 now some of that uh is is that a result of of not only retention efforts but is the the population gone down or is there a need what's
▶ 0:44:17the what's the need I guess is probably the easiest way to ask it okay so the the need for cor the need for increased Corrections Officers so we use right now and a significant amount of overtime to cover all of our posts some of that is due to the vacancies some of that is also due to you know employees who are on board they get sick they take annual leave they may go out for a military duty they may be out for any number of reasons um and so
▶ 0:44:47we also have the need to sort of to be able to cover for the vacancies caused by by um and what's the Delta I'm sorry I'm skipping it only cuz I have two seconds so what would you to if you could just wave a magic wand irrespective of maybe mandates from up above what what would you want Staffing levels to be at for for cosos we estimate that we need about uh let me get you the number I have it right here
▶ 0:45:19um we estimate that we need an about 3,000 more Corrections Officers than we are currently authorized IED for and that's the authorized number is 20446 and that includes the line corrections officer that you think of it includes lieutenants it includes people who work within the unit to with um cor with inmates and it covers a couple other positions other than what you just think of as line Corrections off yeah the chair has been
▶ 0:45:50uh nice to indulge me but so would the number be 23,000 is that you say somewhere around there yes 23 Mr C thanks so much thank you Mr chairman and um thank you associate deputy director Tumi for being here today um president Donald Trump has taken a multitude of bold actions since assuming office again on January 20th one of these includes an executive order uh called defending women from gender ideology
▶ 0:46:20extremism and restoring biological truth to the federal government uh this executive order injects common sense back into the federal government by recognizing that there are only two Sexes and that an individual cannot change his or her god-given sex not only can people not pick their own sex but taxpayer dollars should not be going towards feeding the gender dysphoria dysphoria idea it has been a little over a month since president Trump signed this executive order so um uh associate
▶ 0:46:50deputy director Tumi can you tell me how the Bureau of Prisons is working to comply with this executive order and what steps have you taken thank you for the question Congressman yes so the bureau is working closely with the Department to implement the executive order we have made a number of um policy changes uh consistent with the order to update our policies to um comply with the order I will say that we have there's there are a number of pending lawsuits
▶ 0:47:21involving this issue and so we are working with the Department to implement the extent that we can while also consistent with the temporary restraining orders and preliminary injunctions that have been issued in those cases okay um thank you uh do you have a cost estimate of how much taxpayer funds were used during the Biden Harris Administration on transgender surgeries for prisoners there were two surgeries during that period one in 2022 and one in 2023
▶ 0:47:52and the total cost was about $400,000 about $400,000 okay okay um so with this new directive uh for for prisoners will taxpayer funds continue to be used for transgender surgeries we are no longer referring inmates for those surgeries okay great thank you um in when my colleague had mentioned uh Staffing so um your current authorized level is 2,446 if I if I heard correct and where are you at right now
▶ 0:48:22what's your current Staffing 19 or or somewhere in there now let me get it for you our current Staffing is um our on board 15992 so almost 16,000 so you have a 4,000 almost 4,500 shortfall of uh of Staffing from from 15992 almost 16,000
▶ 0:48:52to 20446 that's correct okay all right um does your current budget is your current budget sufficient to cover uh that for 4500 uh employee increase if you had those employees on board right now it is not it is not okay um do you have an idea of how many it would cover your current your current budget the of the 4500
▶ 0:49:23roughly 4500 about 3,100 of those vac vacancies are funded okay the question of exactly how many more people we could pay and bring on board would assume that if we increase Staffing we could decrease overtime okay um and that would that we would gain some some savings from overtime so we could increase Staffing but some overtime is there's not um some of the overtime is driven by the need to take inmates
▶ 0:49:53to the outside Community for medical care and that is not something that will be driven down by having more Corrections Officers okay um so that 3100 that is funded since you don't have those employees right now what happens to that money it's being paid out in overtime and it's being paid out in incentives okay so it's not being returned to the treasury or anything like that no okay all right um and lastly I want to move on and focus on how the Bureau of Prisons is working with DHS and immigrations to enforce president Trump's
▶ 0:50:24uh historic actions on immigration and closing the southern border it's my understanding that earlier this month the Bureau of Prisons entered into a non-binding agreement with DHS and Ice that states that those detained by ice will be housed in several Federal detention centers across the country so can you shed light on how the Bureau of Prisons is working with DHS and ice on this matter we've entered an inter agency agreement with ice as you noted it allows ice to place detainees in five Bop facilities
▶ 0:50:54Miami Atlanta Lew Philadelphia and Berlin there are currently detainees in the first four of those Miami Atlanta lenworth and Philadelphia the IAA provides for DHS to fully reimburse Bop for its costs associated with with housing those individuals okay all right how many individuals do you have do you know as of this morning they're about 700 Mr Dean thank you and I yield back thank you
▶ 0:51:25chairman it is my honor uh to be on this subcommittee so thank you chairman Rogers and ranking member mang um and thank you associate deputy director Tumi for your testimony for your work for being here with us and I want to thank uh the dedicated federal employees with whom you work on a daily basis thank you I know some here here in the audience uh we are inspired by your incredibly challenging work under incredibly
▶ 0:51:55challenging circumstances um first question I wanted to ask you about is about uh substance use in prison uh drugs in prison illicit uh materials in prison um we know that's an issue whether it's in our state prisons locally uh but in the federal prisons as well research cited by the National Institute on drug abuse suggests that it quote estimated 65% of United States prison population has an active addiction a substance use disorder
▶ 0:52:25another 20 % did not meet that criteria for substance use disorder but were under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time they committed the crime according to a report issued by the Department of Justice office of Inspector General last year uh it's called evaluating of issues surrounding inmate deaths in Federal Bureau of Prisons um of the 344 inmate deaths uh at the Bureau of Prisons uh and this is for
▶ 0:52:56uh 2014 through 21 uh 70 involved drug overdose and we know in the non-prison population we have a daily issue of drug overdose uh director Tumi what are the primary Pathways that illicit substances get into the institutions and what can you do about it thank you very much for the question congresswoman so there are there are numerous Pathways that the Contraband can come in one is by drones it could come in with people simply throwing
▶ 0:53:26things over the fence that happens with some regularity it can be smuggled in by visitors it can come in through the mail it can come in through a staff member who's bringing in something that they shouldn't be bringing in um we have a number of ways that we've been trying to attack this problem because it is a serious serious problem that endangers both the employees and those in our custody we have drone detection software at I'm sorry technology at 69 I think of our facilities
▶ 0:53:56and that allows us to identify drones know when they're um attempting to drop Contraband and sometimes we're able to recover the Drone otherwise even if it's a sighting the staff can go out and try to find whether something was dropped so not not available at all of your facilities not available at all of our facilities no and we're talking about Staffing we're talking about um resources um so you would need more of that I know there's more for you to tell me there but I want to flip to the treatment side
▶ 0:54:26sure uh regarding inmates um getting access to substance use disorder treatment uh what are the successes where do you have programs uh we know that under the first uh step act which was signed by President Trump uh at the end of December 18 uh it directed Bop to expand inmate access to Medicaid uh assisted treatment do you have programs for everybody who is struggling with addiction we have many many programs we have
▶ 0:54:56residential drug treatment programs we have non-residential programs we offer treatment for those in the community once they release to residential re-entry Center we have drug education courses in fiscal year 2024 almost 880,000 inmates participated in drug treatment programs and what impact does that have uh when people get treatment for addiction mental health what impact does that have on recidivism I think that what our medical providers would tell you is is that it has a
▶ 0:55:27very significant impact on individuals conduct within the facility and also increases their likelihood of successfully reintegrating into the community without drug abuse issues and finally uh on the area of retention incentive pay you have told us a lot about that uh I was interested in what you began in your testimony about your experience at Brooklyn can you tell us what happened there uh and uh what was the outcome of it
▶ 0:55:57uh what should we as appropriators know about that so that as we are planning and appropriating for you and your work uh that we can uh retain employ and retain uh uh more folks in this system so Brooklyn I think it's a very good example of how well retention incentives can work Brooklyn was a place that had struggled to hire for a very very long time it's a High Cost of Living urban area they had a lot of difficulty attracting staff
▶ 0:56:27and retaining them so even when you get them in the door they sometimes leave because the pay was not um competitive for the local area so we implemented a 35% retention incentive at Brooklyn last spring about a year ago now is that on their pay that is on their pay it's at 35% in addition to their pay uh that led to 87 additional hires at Brooklin which was the highest they had had in many many years it significantly increased uh uh Staffing levels for Corrections
▶ 0:56:58Officers and also for medical staff medical staff is up well over 90% which it hasn't been there in a very long time it also decreased the use of lockdowns for Staffing Brooklyn was a place that used to lock down could be every weekend many times during the week because there simply were not enough Corrections Officers to work those housing units and so Brooklyn had since August 2024 Brooklyn has had three days of lockdowns for Staffing shortages total
▶ 0:57:28and that was so it's a massive Improvement are you able to continue that with the Brooklyn example yeah so that that yes so that continues yeah terrific and I recognize I'm over my you thank you thank you associate director to me um in September of 2024 the doj's office of Inspector General released a report titled audit of the Federal Bureau of pris management of the national gang unit yes report identified a few critical issues that included a lack of documentation for inmate gang
▶ 0:57:58affiliations an inaccessible disassociation program for inmates seeking to Le leave gang life and inconsistent intelligence gathering and information sharing related gang activities while Bop has acknowledged the findings and is working to implement their 13 recommendations one takeaway may be that extra scrutiny should be applied to ensure that they can be nimble in the face of a changing threat landscape so on January 20th President Trump signed an executive order establishing a process to classify certain cartels and other organizations as foreign terrorist organizations
▶ 0:58:28or or specially designated GL Global terrorists shortly thereafter the state department followed through by designated groups that Encompass Trend aragua MS13 the caloa cartel and the halisco new generation cartel among others as fto how is Bop responding to this given that some incarcerated individuals in their facilities may have pre-existing or ongoing relationships and affiliations with these organizations thank you for the question congressman so the bureau is working closely with the Department
▶ 0:58:58to implement the executive order um I believe that the responsibility for making the designation does not lie with Bop that it's we will we will have to make changes within our process once that designation is made with regard to our national gang unit what I can tell you is that they are extremely active um Gathering intelligence in our facilities there are National gang unit Representatives Intelligence Officers in every Bop facility and they work hard to gather intelligence determine
▶ 0:59:29what can be done to make the institution safer and to counter gang activity are you reshuffling priorities within Bop to ensure that uh there's consistency with do documentation and intelligence gathering and information sharing as it relates to these groups yes that we are very focused on the implementation of those recommendations yes okay thank you want to move on to the uh widespread implementation of the first step act calculator in Bop facilities uh the FSA calculator supposed to be used by inmates and Bop employees for earlier pre-release
▶ 0:59:59Planning by calculating a best case scenario based on the inmates Federal time credits earning status uh it was represented to the Judiciary Committee uh that the program was fully operational and it was stated the Bop has expanded the earn time credit calculator to a full-on projection so that people can see if they behave in prison they stay in programming a treatment their earliest release date is X but um unfortunately public reports have noted that the FSA calculator is not being applied uniformly across
▶ 1:00:29all Bop facilities um some cases not being used at all in fact inmates at FPC Montgomery reportedly went on a food strike after their case managers could not provide answers as to what the bop's position was on the new calculations and according to the reports family members of inmates at that facility has have voiced concerns that staff are retaliating against inmates who re inquire about their FSA credits by taking away television time visitation computers and microwaves Des despite assurances that any errors um
▶ 1:01:00are be are because of human input not because of earned time credit calculator being broken the failure of Bop to properly implement the calculators having vastly negative effects on inmates and causing confusion among staff uh can you update us on that and reassure us that that is uh no longer a problem yes Congressman so I believe the situation among Gomery I think was last summer or last fall since that time we have issued additional guidance to the field about the calculation and the information that will be available to those in custody
▶ 1:01:30about their um projected release dates and that is a guidance that was given in November December some so it's um and so far as I know it is being followed in the field and it was received well so you don't anticipate any further problems with the calculator I don't have any reason to think that will be the case no okay um also want to followup on a subpoena uh chairman Jordan sent from Judiciary
▶ 1:02:01to bop director Peters back in April of last year for three categories of documents related to the bureau's treatment of Biden impeachment witness galanis uh the Bop responded saying uh her testimony director Peter's testimony uh would fulfill the committee's request um they her testimony actually failed to answer basic question from Members about alleged sexual assault at the hands of Bop guards and the bureau's denial
▶ 1:02:31of gann's application for home confinement under the rules of the cares act can you update the committee on the status of this internal investigation is the guard still employed by Bop and when can we expect a response uh to the Judiciary Committee Congressman um I think I'll have to refer the the questions about the responsib committee will have to that are best directed to the department those that that was handled entirely through the Department's office of legislative affairs so while Bop May produce information
▶ 1:03:01the decisions about what to do with regard to that are are at the department level and I would refie back I do not currently know the stat because this was an Appropriations hearing I do not currently know the status of that but we'll be happy to look into it and provide what information you don't know if the guards still employed I I don't know the current status no if you could get us that information that'd be helpful thank you yeld back Mr Ry thank you Mr chairman Mr Klein The subpoena issues continue out here so uh uh I did want to follow up on on a point he made
▶ 1:03:31with respect to the calculator because I've heard similar things and I would encourage you to to double check whatever sort of uh follow-up mechanism you have or can put in place we'd appreciate it uh with respect to Congressman Carter he also raised issues I wanted to follow up with as well and that in turn that was uh regarding Prosecuting attacks on Corrections Officers uh I looked at um the uh October 2024 IG report and it raised issues with respect to the need for additional video in part for
▶ 1:04:01prosecution efforts and I suppose that can go both ways there might be inmate on inmate issues or or vice versa but uh you know it raised the the point that there's an additional need for uh video within and I wanted to see if you could address that I mean um How much would it take to do it do you agree that that would be helpful and necessary to add how how long would it take to get it done thank you Congressman so I I think in part that report refers
▶ 1:04:32to bop's efforts to implement additional cameras digital cameras consistent with the um the camera act so I can tell you the status of where we are in terms of upgrading and replacing those cameras um because certainly it is it is in a very important for tool for law enforcement for those prosecution so um the camera upgrades really rely on two things fiber optic installation and the availability of cameras so we've completed the fiber optic installation at about 90% of our
▶ 1:05:02facilities four facilities are completely finished with the fiber and the cameras about 80 have camera installation ongoing the fiber is complete but the camera installation is ongoing and there are 37 facilities awaiting either the fiber installation or the camera so we are about 40% of the way to where we need to be we have a facility staff very dedicated to that and they're working hard to get that done all right and with respect to the storage time it looks like there's uh maybe 14 days had
▶ 1:05:32been what typically happens or at best the suggestion here is two months or if it's going to be used for prosecutorial purposes two two months or more at least I would think would be in order are the new ones going to be able to um store the uh data for longer periods than 14 days I would have to check on that for you Congressman okay with respect to the point about drones I I think that was with respect to Mr Dean's questions um I was curious about that point because the IG raised that as well
▶ 1:06:03um and you mentioned that there are uh some of your facilities that have the ability to use counter measures or detection measures I suppose how many do not have the ability to uh to detect uh drones so we have drone detection software at 64 facilities so about half about half of the facilities have it 64 yes are you in the process of adding the remainder
▶ 1:06:33um we would uh we would like to expand the system we don't currently have the funding that don't have the funding how much money do you need how much additional funding would you need to get that done Congressman that I and I will have to we will have to follow up with you on all right appreciate it um quick question on the phone calls I I I don't know if I saw it in your testimony but you mentioned it when you're test testifying a few moments ago are you saying that there are some phone calls that are not charged but some that
▶ 1:07:04are oh for the inmate phone calls yes so yes so so traditionally inmates have paid the cost of phone calls to family and friends um for whatever um the during covid under the cares act Bop received funding to provide free phone calls to all inmates because restrict visiting was restricted right so we have now um we have now rolled that back because we no longer have the Cara funding
▶ 1:07:34we've rolled that back so that individuals in individuals who are engaged in FSA programming can receive up to 300 minutes of free phone calls a month everyone else has to pay for their call so if you're not programming to pay for each call the FCC implemented new phone rates for calls I think it went from 12 cents to 6 cents a minute in January so we timed the change with the decrease in cost all right great uh
▶ 1:08:04and then um got a little bit of time left I think you had you said that there are 4,000 beds that can't be used currently I guess that's because of the crumbling facilities correct and that would add up to around two or three additional inst installations it's the equivalent of two to three prisons yes all right and how much would it cost to um get the facilities up to par so you could use the 4,000 do you need the 4,000 additional beds we do need the 4,000 additional beds most of those beds are in low and medium secur
▶ 1:08:34security facilities and the places we have the fewest amount of available beds are in low security facilities so yes it would be helpful to bring those back online Mr Alford thank you chair and ranking member it's an honor to be on this subcommittee thank you and thank you associate deputy director Tumi for being here today I'm glad we got the technical difficulties worked out uh associate director deputy director do we have the best prison
▶ 1:09:04system in the world I think we have a very good prison system do we have the best prison system in the world Congressman I'm not sure I'm in a good place to evaluate that I don't know every other prison system in the world so I don't know that I can offer you an opinion on that why are we not evaluating other prison systems throughout the world to find the best practices the modern gation that we need so we can declare we have the best prison system in the world I don't think there's a reason that we're not doing it it's simply outside
▶ 1:09:34of what Bop would normally do in terms of meeting its mission right we are very very focused on promoting Safety and Security and getting the job done the day-to-day job but um I don't know we don't I I'm not aware that Bop has ever studied other other wor funding such research so that we could find best practices techniques it could be worth it I don't know Congressman it's hard to it's hard to say I mean I think there are a number of places
▶ 1:10:05where additional funding would be useful Staffing Staffing crumbling infrastructure other things so recently on February 5th there was a story that President Trump and the president of El Salvador had apparently struck a deal to uh ship uh detainees and other Federal uh inmates to that country to put in their super prison they they treat prisoners a lot differently down there I think the Secretary of State uh
▶ 1:10:35kind of ran a little interference on that and said it might not be constitutional haven't heard much talk of it but they do treat uh prisoners much differently um outside the scope of our constitution I'm not suggesting that but are are there some practices that could be adopted to modernize our prisons where we don't need as many humans uh correctional officers in those facilities uh to where we wouldn't have to worry as much about retention and placement
▶ 1:11:05Congressman I think one of the things that's not well understood about Bop facilities is most housing units only have one or two Corrections Officers on them so unless you're going to remove everyone from the housing unit um all the the Corrections Officers we don't have much to cut they're not it's not as if we have a lot of people working on each of those units each unit is usually staffed with one to two Corrections Officers and that officer may be responsible for 120 inmates so it is very leanly
▶ 1:11:36staffed the staff is spread across 120 facilities in the United States across several housing units at every one of those facilities so I I don't know how we compare to El Salvador other countries but what I can tell you is the Staffing level in Bop institutions is already I suspect much lower than most people would think that it is there's $3 billion dollar worth of deferred maintenance as we would say in the housing business for federal prison
▶ 1:12:06properties why not build a new prison for that cost or what would a new prison cost uh have you done any research on that uh we have there is research on it Congressman I cannot recall off the top of my head we recently are completing um completing a new prison at lenworth um and so we could certainly provide the cost of that to you yeah how many uh detainees illegal aliens are going to be how
▶ 1:12:36many different facilities are they going to the current agreement with DHS covers five five facilities five facilities and how many detainees I don't think that we have a cap in the agreement I I don't recall and what protections are being put in place to separate those from the federal General population in in prisons so we the detainees are put in separate housing units they're not other they're not uh sentenced
▶ 1:13:06uh individuals in the same housing unit they will be supervised by different B still Bop staff but different staff and their steps are taken so that they don't interact at any point and the intention is to have them housed there until they can be repatriated to their home countries I think I I don't want to answer for ice in terms of the intention they are we are providing bed space for ice so they can fulfill their mission in terms of wherever those individuals are going I can't I don't I don't know beyond that okay
▶ 1:13:37thank you for your answers I yell back thank you chairman Rogers and ranking member Ming it's an honor to be on this subcommittee uh thank you associate director to me for being here today uh in the testimony you had mentioned that there are 4,000 new hires which is one of your best hiring years and a decade uh and with a net gain of 1,200 new employees of those 12200 employees because I don't know how many of those are on probationary uh periods of
▶ 1:14:08time or how long is the probationary per period is one year one year so if they were hired later in the year has there been any impact with the current cuts of probationary federal employees in the prison system we have not had any cuts epop okay also in your testimony you had mentioned about uh Healthcare you're at 84% and then uh also in the testimony you had mentioned that there's a lot of medical
▶ 1:14:38trips can you kind of dive into that the importance of recruitment on the medical side and what that means longterm for spending yes so we have um it is difficult to recruit medical professionals we compete in terms of salary we also compete in terms of flexibility ask yeah and I it may be impossible when you compete in the terms of salary what that means so I mean is there a Dollar figure or percentage that you're deficient on so the
▶ 1:15:09I can't tell you it differs from place to place across the country what I can tell you is that we know that in certain metropolitan areas for instance Bop doctors may make may earn 10 to 20% less than doctors in the community um in terms of the overall in terms of the I'm sorry Congressman can you remind me the question again I'm so sorry tell me the advantage of being able to hire medical professionals inhouse so that you can minimize the cost of taking them to outside
▶ 1:15:39sources so we are able if we are able to fully staff Medical in our facilities we are able to provide more care better care more timely care in the facilities which often can help alleviate the need to take someone into the community for a more advanced medical condition that's treated adequately within the facility so that is one of the advantages you had also in your testimony you had a 19% decrease in separations correct you had talked about the
▶ 1:16:0935% incentive what are other uh tangible reasons in which that occurred so the 35% retention incentive was at Brooklyn the 19% um was for Bop overall a decrease in in um attrition that I think is attributable largely to retention incentives we also have been um as inst as Staffing levels at institutions rise right we're also there decreased
▶ 1:16:40uh mandatory over time it makes the conditions better less stressful for the staff so we are seeing institutions where we have individuals who are more willing to stay we have mandatory law enforcement retirement at 57 but we do see people who come forward and say they'd like to stay for another year and we have the ability to allow that and along the theme of retention uh there have been calls from Congress and uh the bop and unions to Institute a nationwide special pay
▶ 1:17:10rate for federal correction workers can you discuss the importance of maintaining competitive pay rate and what actions Congress can take to support those wages so thank you Congressman the uh the special pay rate was of proposal developed in the last Administration um it would require both OPM approval and funding from Congress um you know it will be up to a new director to decide whether they they would like to pursue that idea um at this point um but what I can tell you
▶ 1:17:40is we know that recruitment incentives keep people in the institutions and allow us to increase Staffing levels we so we know it works do you do exit interviews as people are leaving HR does yes do you have any type of overall theme on why people leave people often leave because they can get paid better someplace else they can get a more flexible job and the work is less dangerous and less difficult and last question uh
▶ 1:18:11what can we do as a member of Congress to help you increase your retention rates to hopefully lower costs Congressman I can't I can't uh comment on what Congress should do but what I will tell you is that we are anything we can do to retain people whether that means keeping incentives or offering um other kinds of job benefits are things that we would really welcome I thank you I yield back Mr gonzale
▶ 1:18:41uh thank you chairman and thank you director for for being here uh as you know I represent nearly half of the Southern border a lot of people like to talk about the Border we live it places like El Paso Eagle Pass Del Rio all in all in my district earlier this month your agency stated that Bureau of Prisons is assisting Ice by housing detainees earlier you said you're currently at 700 um reports have suggested that number may increase into the thousands my qu my first question is do you expect DHS to ask for additional housing
▶ 1:19:11of illegal aliens uh thank you for the question Congressman I don't know we are regularly communicating with I about how we can collaborate with them I I just don't know what they may request in the future I would not be surprised if they did right you have to house somebody that you're detaining pres uh Bop makes a lot of sense for it uh how much funding do you anticipate you will will be needed in order to uh in order to reach adequate Staffing levels to maintain officer safety um
▶ 1:19:41so the proposal so we have um excuse me I'm sorry let me just find that um so we estimate that over a to implement I think you're asking about the special salary rate if that's what you're asking about we estimate that it would cost $2.5 billion over five years to increase Staffing levels and increase the
▶ 1:20:11pay of Corrections Officers once we're at the fully staff level got it I mean once again this is the appro hearing right we're we're looking at dollars and cents on how we get you to to help meet your your mission I'm looking at um the appropriated levels for fiscal year 24 8.57 five billion okay I'm looking at your requests for fiscal year 25 8.82 billion uh and then I'm looking at what we appropriated that's $245 million increase I I mentioned those levels
▶ 1:20:42you're asking for more money to do more things as you're getting more missions from different things that I think are important right housing illegal aliens is important to keep an Americans safe my my question is how does a year-long CR impact your Staffing and shortages a year-long CR means that we will operate at 2024 funding levels which for Bop were the same as 2023 funding levels we have absorbed as I said before 5% pay raise last year 2% pay
▶ 1:21:12raise this year that's a cumulative increase of about $500 million of additional salary the effect is that we will continue to make the best most responsible decisions we can make about how we use our funding but we will have fewer and fewer discretionary dollars to spend is that going to impact the operations um the the the DHS uh operations to house additional illegal aliens right now you're at hundreds I expect you'll be at thousands maybe even more um will that impact it in any
▶ 1:21:42any form or fashion I don't know Congressman that that I right now the agreement is that ice will fully reimburse Bop for its costs but I don't know how it might grow in the I'd be very interested and I think this committee would be very interested in ensuring that you have all the proper resources in order to tackle all your mission sets to including the helping of other additional agencies espe the president has made this a priority here in Congress we've made it a priority but a lot of people say it's a priority and then they cut the check
▶ 1:22:12and the check doesn't match what the priorities are I want to help you make sure that you have all the funding levels you need in order to accomplish your mission and to keep Americans safe so if we could please work together on that as we we work through that and and and the the the staff as well I'm going to ask one state question and then and then I'm done uh there's a memo from the Congressional programs division last year authorizing officers to to you to the use of MK4 gel spray an alternative to your typical aerial spray on escorted trips
▶ 1:22:42to the hospital and doctor visits this gel spray is widely accepted as a safer alternative as general Aros sprays can easily travel into a Hospital's HVAC system uh Federal Prison my question is this federal prisons in Texas are being told that they do not have the funds to purchase this jail spray can you speak to any funding that is allocated to our facilities to equip officers with the MK4 Jael spray any funding Congressman I don't I don't
▶ 1:23:13actually know whether there there's no additional funding for Bop we pay for that out of our base budget i' love I'd love for you to look into this we got about 20 seconds left I'd love for you to look into this the current is is everyone must use this aerial spray I think as technology has evolved there's other Alternatives out there that may be safer for for different folks I'd love to just maybe follow up and and have a deeper conversation on what the alternatives are what are some of the challenges for getting them implemented and once again thank you for coming before I look forward to working with
▶ 1:23:43you thank you Congress chairman i y back Mr strong thank you Mr chairman uh Miss Tumi I was pleased that you U touched on the increasing use of drones around prisons to deliver Contraband uh um you're no doubt aware the CCP link drone manufacturer DJI uh recently released a software update that permits its product to fly over previously restricted areas such as military bases runways and power plants Miss tumy can you share uh more about how drones have been
▶ 1:24:13illegally utilized at facilities operated under bop's purview and about the technology you're that you mentioned um uh that you're looking to deploy thank you Congressman so drones are used uh to fly over Bop facilities to drop Contraband in the prison yard they may fly fly in some cases they may fly as close to a housing unit right to attempt um to deliver it on a roof or someplace else close to the building the most common types of Contraband introduced
▶ 1:24:43via drone are drugs and cell phones maybe cell phone chargers can you can you address how dji's decision to allow drones to fly in restricted areas has further complicated efforts to ensure the safety and security of facilities operated U by Bop Congressman I can't I can't comment on the specific change on on that specific issue what I can tell you is that we work with um the FAA to have
▶ 1:25:13air uh airspace restrictions at most of our facilities is at about 109 um so that we can decrease the the likelihood that DRS will come into what other emerging Technologies do you see on the horizon that could similarly impede the Safety and Security of your prisons the uh the emerging technology so so I will cell phones are a a significant risk in prisons um and so
▶ 1:25:43there are we are deploy we are using and and looking at additional Technologies to detect and identify cell phones so that we can seize them and take them back for and also to stop it from coming in thank you I'd like to recognize and applaud the information sharing efforts of Bop through its intelligence and counterterrorism Branch I think that's great I think people love to hear how you're working that I'm pleased that Bop collects uh permanent information within the prison system and has proactively
▶ 1:26:13engaged across doj and partnered with DHS to ensure this information is shared with federal state and local law enforcement uh Miss Tumi uh in our unclassified environment could you discuss your current process for analyzing and sharing intelligence collected within the prison system in particular uh I'd like to hear about your uh processes for monitoring and analyzing prisoner communication Congressman so we have a uh our intelligence
▶ 1:26:43unit um does a lot of work on um to monitor inmate Communications and phone calls we have a phone system that inmates use that records the phone phone calls and then those are those are reviewed and monitored by our intelligence unit are those recorded and translated uh transcribed uh real time they're not they're not okay uh I can imagine this monitoring and an analyzation uh puts a strain on your resources and Personnel
▶ 1:27:14um as you look into the future what tools and Technologies could be implemented to assist these efforts I Congressman I think we are we are well aware of the need to be more efficient in terms of the analysis of those phone calls and we have we are discussing the possible use of different technologies that would translate them or or automatically transcribe them I don't think I can provide you with more information in this setting about what that might be thank you I'd like to follow
▶ 1:27:44up on Mr Ivy's uh question uh there was a mention that you had 4,000 beds that are offline in need of repair yes that would equate to two prison systems if uh that many bed spaces two to three how much do you estimate it would cost to repair those would it be cheaper to repair or cheaper to build a prison Congressman we we can get back to you with more information on that that what I will say is the repair of those beds are at existing facilities where the rest of
▶ 1:28:14the facility exists so I don't know how it compares to new building but we do think that's a very efficient way to add additional beds to a location that we are already have that is working well thank you for coming before us Mr chairman i y back thank you Mr chairman and uh thank you director tumy for being here um question that I wanted to touch on here and it
▶ 1:28:44has to deal with the first step act which as you know was enacted seven ago and it not only prioritized uh reism reduction programming within the Bop but requires that the bureau work with nonprofits and other private organizations including and uh faith-based art and community-based organizations that will deliver reism reduction programming on a paid
▶ 1:29:14or volunteer basis uh these types of programs are critical for ensuring that those who are released from prison do not end up coming right back um in 2022 the FSA annual report noted that the Bop received 11 external applications to provide evidence-based reism reduction programs EBR RS uh Bop approved five of those applications with one of them uh being
▶ 1:29:45faith-based the Bop did not give any information 2023 report on the faith-based participation so since the the first step act uh became law the Bop has received eight external faith-based applications and of those eight applications five were denied two were approved and one remains pending review the two that were approved are productive activities meaning that there are no external
▶ 1:30:15faith-based EBR RS operating in the Bop uh with individuals across the Bop system currently on weight list to participate in this programming I I don't understand why the Bop is not moving with more speed on a law that was signed into uh existence seven years ago so my question is can you provide an explanation as to why there are no external faith-based EBR RS operating within
▶ 1:30:45the uh the Bop almost seven years after the enactment of the first step act Congressman what I can tell you about out the first step Act is we we take it very seriously we work hard every year to expand the number of programs that are available so both evidence-based recidivism reduction programs and productive activities and those in custody can earn time credits for participating in both of those activities with regard to a specific application I don't know the background
▶ 1:31:15on that what I can tell you is that the applications go to a a an office that looks at need the qualifications of the organization what it's offering how it compares to other things that are being offered and whether it meets the qualifications for something that can be an evidence-based program that that's what I can provide for you today yeah and that that's kind of I'd like some additional information on it
▶ 1:31:46in terms of what what indicators were used or considered in the application and selection process where under the first step act they've denied five of the eight faith-based applications I I think that's a really important part of this and I I'm just curious why is that happening is do you have any idea I do not know a congressman but we'll be happy to look into it yeah it's of course I have my own thoughts on it but
▶ 1:32:16I I'd love to understand why because I think it's really important you know obviously I'm wearing my own faith here on my sleeve a little bit but I think I think it is really important to have that as an aspect in terms of reducing reism is you know trying to bring people towards faith and finding a new uh path in life so I I would love to have some more information on that and I'd love to have those other approved thank you Congressman I yeld back
▶ 1:32:57is there a sentiment on the committee to have a second round of questions is there a desire for a second right all right um well is it okay to have a second round Madam I'm at your Congressman we'll get you out of here and do of course thank you uh we will
▶ 1:33:27do a second round of three minutes each rather than five and I yeld myself to start harking back to U uh the evidence that U Mr strong brought out about uh repairs and looking at your state stat that you gave us
▶ 1:33:58um you say that more than 4,000 beds are unusable due to crumling conditions in the housing units is that an accurate number 4,000 that is an accurate number yes that's the equivalent of two prisons it is that can't be used because they're under repair or not um
▶ 1:34:29now what what side effects does it have to to have a person with unusable beds or under construction so most of those beds are not under construction they're just some some of them are um when a when beds are unavailable what it means is it constrains the bureaus ability to um move people to communities where maybe they would be
▶ 1:34:59housed closer to their release location it creates it can create additional burden on staff because you may have units existing housing units that become overcrowded at a particular facility um and it certainly increases the um potential for for very decrepit building certainly increases the potential for danger to both staff and those in our custody um in your statement you you say that PO
▶ 1:35:29developed a comprehensive 5e Capital plan for its major repair projects uh tell us about that So the plan is um breaks out specific categories of projects that will increase safety in our facilities so for instance replacing fire alarms sprinklers fire pumps those sorts of things it identifies
▶ 1:36:00a certain number of projects that are needed new roofs there are 65 roofs just on the five-year Capital plan and that is roofs create there there's a danger right unstable leaking roofs create a lot of danger in the facilities um the plan also covers security system so perimeter fencing other kinds of things needed to secure the instit ution the 5-year plan has it down
▶ 1:36:30the it specific projects by category and by institution and it also breaks out the cost over five years each of the five years well that makes all the sense in the world common sense as they say secondly U private person yes uh the president recently issued an executive order allowing
▶ 1:37:00doj to renew contracts with private prison operators um how does the bureau plan to integrate private facilities into the federal correction system congressmen were aware of the executive oror and we're working on it with the Department what I can tell you is how we use private prisons in the past in the past V op used private prisons to house non-citizens who were in custody so um
▶ 1:37:31from about 2017 to about 2020 uh Bop had a number of private prison contracts and it housed that housed several thousand individuals who were in custody and were non US citizens what's your considered opinion about private prisons I Congressman I don't I don't I don't have an opinion about private prisons what I will tell you is
▶ 1:38:02that Bop spent about $400 million annually on the private prisons when we had them in the past so without additional funding we don't have the ability right now to greatly expand into private prisons and exactly what we'll have to do will need to be decided by the administration thank you Miss Bing thank you Mr chairman um I just wanted to uh ask in response to last month's
▶ 1:38:33Memo from the administration encouraging federal employees uh to quit how many Bop employees are quitting in response to the Deferred resignation offer and are you worried about resignations uh and their impact on safety in the prisons thank you for the question congresswoman uh most Bop positions were exempt from the Deferred resignation offered the law enforcement positions were exempt so we
▶ 1:39:03have a relatively small number of employees who are even eligible for that so the number of I don't I don't know the total number of applicants but the number of employees who we anticipate even could leave is below a 100 um and then I wanted to go back uh about uh theou that with the prison Bureau of Prisons and ice uh my understanding from theou that Bop will be reimbursed for the cost of housing feeding and other custodial responsibilities for the migrants what's your estimate
▶ 1:39:33of the cost of feeding and Sheltering the those detainees uh when is that money needed by and how will it affect Bop operations if it's not provided to bop congresswoman I don't have an estimate of exactly what it will cost it will really depend on the number of individuals um but we and we will that the agreement provides for reimbursement from ice on a periodic basis so I I at this point We've Just Begun this process and so I think we're going to have to wait and
▶ 1:40:03see a little bit how it is implemented and how it impacts Bop I think it's too early for us to really say okay do you know if the Bop staff at the five locations listed in theou have uh fluency in different languages that might be needed other than English to effectively communicate with the det Tes the I don't know about the staff specific at the facilities but I know that the agreement with ice provides for language line assistance and other things to
▶ 1:40:33ensure that detainees are able to communicate with their whoever they need to communicate with um and then lastly do you know what the current Staffing and augmentation rates uh at the facilities are I do not have those rates at this point what I can tell you is that we believe that we have we can manage the increased Mission within the staff available at those institutions okay thank you I you'll back okay this is going to be a little
▶ 1:41:03strange story here back in the 70s long time back uh I was a president of the JC's and I had a call from the federal prison in bastro and asked me about they had done all things they were necessary to form a JC uh club uh in the prison and they asked me if I would come over and uh initiate
▶ 1:41:34swear in all of their employees it be at their opening event of their JC's and it was it was first time I'd been in state prisons but I had never been in federal prison very very uh facility uh once we walked into this this one room you couldn't know if we were at the Round Rock swearing in ceremony or at the Georgetown ceremony or the Houston ceremony
▶ 1:42:04they had a band playing they had all these people were dressed up they had their wives there or spouses there and everybody was dressed up and uh this it was a shocker to me uh so I swore him in and uh and and visited for a little while and IED since my wife was at home I didn't need to stay for the dance so I left uh but that was a real interesting experience
▶ 1:42:34I've never had before do do uh clubs like JC is now women more women than men so it probably wouldn't be appropriate now but I mean uh do they still have clubs that come in and organize in the prison that like I don't know Kanas or something like that Congressman I don't know about the club specifically what I can tell you is that we do work with a lot of volunteer
▶ 1:43:05organizations in communities to come in to provide various types of programming mentorship activities other types of things with people in prisons I think I can tell you I I feel fairly confident we no longer have bands um in in Bop facilities but um but we do work with a lot of community volunteer organizations to be able to offer additional Services interactions other types of things that you allow uh churches to come into the come in and put on a church
▶ 1:43:35service to my knowledge yes good thank you say again churches I asked them if they allow churches to come and a church service I thought you I thought you said turkeys no I didn't say turkeys I just said you're listening out of the wrong ear brother thank you Mr chairman uh I I did want to U make a quick comment then ask you a couple questions
▶ 1:44:05um I believe it was Mr Moore had some comments about interaction inside the prisons I I I don't have experience with him in federal prisons but in the state prisons I I thought it's been very helpful for a couple of reasons one is it helps with the transition for people who were in and sometimes then have a community that's waiting for them when they come out the other part too though is that sometimes the best people doing the work are ex offenders themselves and if that's one of the reasons that the applications are being turned down
▶ 1:44:35I hope that will be reconsidered I know that frequently in federal grants uh they have reservations about that but this I would suggest this might be a special exception I didn't want to ask you about Dublin um just reading about this I I know that's been shut down but I guess there was um years of a abuse and these are I guess prison officials who were involved in um sexual assaults and harassment with women
▶ 1:45:05in that institution uh and there were 100 survivors led to a settlement of $115 million I don't know if the courts accepted that settlement or not but um what steps in other than shutting down Dublin because I've got a quote in here from one of The Advocates saying this is not a Dublin problem this is a Bop problem what steps is the Bop taken to make sure that this doesn't happen any anywhere else and we're not exposing taxpayer dollars to the tune of $15 million to these
▶ 1:45:36kinds of settlements thank you Congressman so I think one of the main changes that Bop has has well bop's done a number of things one is we really value our uh collaboration and partnership with the office of Inspector General which investigates those cases we have significantly expanded our Internal Affairs office to be able to handle more cases more investigations um that especially that look into allegations of allegations of employee misconduct
▶ 1:46:06um and those are the those are two main steps that we've taken just along those lines in the IG report it mentions um a call for an independent on budsman actually that might be part of the 2024 federal prison oversight act uh is that in place or is that sort of what you were talking about a moment ago so the over so no the the the changes at Bop or specific to bop the oversight act does require appointment of an UDS to
▶ 1:46:36take in complaints from families people in custody other Advocates others um regarding conditions in Bop facilities uh the the ability to appoint the UDS is not with bop it is with the department and so I think we are working with the Department on implementation of that sois main Justice you me Department yes yes okay and who there would be in charge of making that decision I Congressman I'm not sure exactly who it would be but we are working with them to discuss how best to implement that
▶ 1:47:06act and what that what that would look like thank you very much Mr chairman yield back Mr CH gotta push the talk button thank you Mr chair okay round two what did you say was a starting salary again of a federal corrections officer it's starts at about $49,000 depending on the Area 49 and it can go up to 59,000 are these men and women typically experiencing some sort of protection uh or criminal justice degree
▶ 1:47:37where where do they come from uh many of our applicants come from they may have a four-year degree they may have studied criminal justice or something else and we hire a number of people who come out of the military so that may be their experience um those those are two primary paths why why should someone want to be a federal corrections officer given the inherent danger and given the relatively low income why why would someone want to be a federal corrections officer for the mission I think the people who work in the
▶ 1:48:07institutions every day will tell you that it is an amazing mission right that they are working very very hard to make the public safe and to rehabilitate people in our custody and that is I think people believe deeply in that mission so it's a a service service above self really service for your country yes and our security is that the marketing message you use the Army has used several in the past U Army of one they're back to be all you can be their their
▶ 1:48:37recruitment is now up they've met their recruitment goal last year what marketing messages do you use so we do we focus very heavily on being part of a team and being part of the mission Bop revised it's entire recruitment strategy a couple of years ago to to really focus on those types of messages um we could we be happy to share some of our recruitment ads via VIA link we're very proud of them not on Tik Tok though right not on Tik
▶ 1:49:07Tok okay good um are you going into college campuses uh personally like uh Army uh and Military recruiters do we go into college campuses we go into trade school schools nursing schools uh we have a internship program for psychology students which allows us to bring people in and then hire them once they've gotten their degree we um uh recruit at any number
▶ 1:49:38of different local employers the local institutions go out locally and our national recruitment office participates in job fairs we have our own job fairs we and what is your line item for recruitment I would have to check that number for you Congress I'd like to see that and uh and if you need more money for that I I we want to get behind you um we want to have the best prison system in America with the best Americans helping uh in this effort so thank you for your service to
▶ 1:50:08our great nation thank you thank you Congressman thank you Mr chairman have you ever evaluated um medical cost uh of inhouse versus privatization um to see which one is most cost effective Congressman I would have to check I'm not aware of that but it doesn't mean we haven't done it I'm just not aware of it as I said here today I can tell you um previously a county mayor County Commission chairman I had about 1300 1400 which is small but in a
▶ 1:50:38Metro Jail and that was one of the biggest savings we were able to do is we privatized the medical what is your average cost uh per meal uh for each uh of the inmates again Congressman I would have to we we could get you that data but but I don't have the average cost per meal that was another thing that we did we privatized and whenever we privatized we brought it down to less than a dollar $150 per meal they provided a dietician and it saved an enormous amount of money might be worth uh looking into uh does the federal prison system either sale or
▶ 1:51:08off offer coffee and cigarettes to people that are um in that facility we have a commissary yes that does provide any a wide range of of goods thank you Mr chairman are you back thank
▶ 1:51:38our witness especially administrator Nelson for being here with us being frank and open we we thank you for that as you await the appointment of a new director uh we wish you all the luck in the world in running the shop while we're waiting on a new boss so thank you for your service you've got a
▶ 1:52:09resume you've been a great public servant and still are and we're all depending on you to carry out this very chore so thank you for being here today and thank you for your service thank you thank so much Congressman without objection members may have seven days to submit additional questions for the record the subcommittee STS
▶ 1:52:43start thank you sorry if I
▶ 1:53:21e for