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▶ 0:24:48we going do a little mus right the subcommittee on Aviation will come order I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so ordered I also ask unan consent that the members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with
▶ 0:25:18the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so ordered and as a reminder if members wish to insert a document into the record please also email it to I want to take a moment uh and reflect a little bit about what we took place on January 29th 2025 losing 65
▶ 0:25:48lives American Airlines flight 5342 and Pat 25 just a few short miles from here we have some families with us today and I would like to recognize them we have Laura aundre and Amy Hunter these are cousins Laura and Amy cousins of the Livingston family who passed away in the crash
▶ 0:26:18they lost Peter and Donna Livingston and their daughters Everly and or lyia Lauren Amy would you please stand and be recognized if I could I would like to take a moment of silence if everybody would please stand for a moment of silence in honor of the 67 lives
▶ 0:26:54lost thank you you may be seated I now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes good morning and thank you to our panel of witnesses for being here today your testimony will no doubt provide valuable insight into today's critical discussion on air traffic control infrastructure and Staffing
▶ 0:27:24I want to be very clear the reason that we are here today is that in its current form this country's air traffic control system is unsustainable it's unsustainable that statement shouldn't come as a surprise to those in this room in fact many of the panelists before us today have been ringing the alarm Bell for decades for decades on the need for ATC modernization increased hiring
▶ 0:27:55of controllers and stable funding streams for the FAA dating back to 1995 the government accountability office or the GAO has classified the faa's efforts to modernize our at system as highrisk high risk while efforts have been made to address this deep rooted since the '90s it's clear they have fallen short
▶ 0:28:25I say that not to to Heap blame but to make clear that we're not much closer to a solution than we were in 1995 we need to rewrite the previous Playbook and begin digging out of the hole that we've found ourselves in and this moment this moment in time represents a unique opportunity for the members of this subcommittee and all Aviation stakeholders to coales
▶ 0:28:56around a common goal meaningful air traffic control modernization that will benefit the flying public and all users of the national airspace system at the request of this subcommittee GAO undertook a more recent study on the faa's air traffic control system published just last year the report noted the urgent need to modernize aging systems and found
▶ 0:29:2651 of the agencies 138 ATC systems unsustainable that's roughly 37% 54 of the agency's 138 at systems were potentially unsustainable roughly 39% so look at this 105 systems out of 138 identified as unsustainable or unsustainable and 58 of those
▶ 0:29:56have critical operation impacts on the safety and efficiency of the national airspace for a country that considers itself the gold standard in aviation safety these numbers are unacceptable and we must do better while it is easy to lay blame at the feet of the FAA and their project management is certainly not blame less we also have to look at our own shortfalls
▶ 0:30:26with a finite budget cap capital budget and unstable funding the agency is forced to the into the impossible predicament of having to dedicate vast amounts of money on simply sustaining old and outdated systems leaving little left over for the capital Improvement projects furthermore it is admittedly a technical challenge to modernize a robust system with little to No Interruption that runs 24 hours
▶ 0:30:56a day 7 days a a week 365 days a year transporting almost 3 million passengers daily so solving this problem will require the support of all the parties involved however if we're all pulling in the same direction I have no doubt Congress can rise to the occasion much like chairman Graves and I suspect many others in this room I was thrilled to hear that President Trump and secretary Duffy have
▶ 0:31:27voiced their support for historic investments in air traffic control facilities and Technologies in keeping with the theme of today's hearing America builds and the president's promise on building physical infrastructure this is truly a unique opportunity to modernize our air traffic system once again I would like to thank our Witnesses for being here today and I look forward to their testimony as we tackle one of the largest
▶ 0:31:57issues is facing the long-term success of the aviation industry in this country I now recognize ranking member Cohen for five minutes for an opening thank you Mr chair I appreciate you're scheduling this hearing which is so important at this time would have been important regardless but it's most now the full flying public deserves a strong modern and well staffed air traffic control system no question today that system is under strain
▶ 0:32:27and it's been under strain for some time under Democratic and Republican presidents it's been bipartisan in its failure to address the problems we don't have enough air traffic controllers and haven't for many many years some of that goes back to President Reagan and firing air traffic controllers think there were 11,000 fired and we don't have enough technicians maintaining critical infrastructure the recent and tragic midair collision at DCA is just the latest Grim reminder that safety
▶ 0:32:57cannot be taken for granted we've seen too many close calls in this country Runway incursions midair near misses in addition to the other tragic accidents that should serve as a wakeup call they're not just flukes these accidents they're symptoms of an overburdened system and a Workforce stretch too thin this committee was not asleep at the wheel last year in a bipartisan Bill led by Mr graves Mr lson the 2024 FAA
▶ 0:33:28reauthorization law took important steps toward improving safety and Staffing it that law just needs to be followed like all other laws and constitutional Provisions need to be followed it directs the FAA to maximize hiring from the agency's air traffic control Academy and requires new Staffing models for safety critical Personnel to ensure we meet future demands it also strengthens oversight of safety inspectors and ensures the FAA has the resources necessary to provide and prevent
▶ 0:33:58to prevent near misses and Runway incursions while these new Provisions are important their implementation is even more critical and it's just getting the administration to follow through and that's why we welcome the announcement by Transportation secretary Duffy to supercharge the hiring of air traffic controllers including a 30% increase in starting salaries however instead of unleashing Doge and lwn musk's
▶ 0:34:28cronies this Administration should follow through in the mandates that have been set by this committee and by this Congress they are the law of the land we cannot afford Reckless disruptions in the dedicated safety Workforce that keeps the system running the Trump administration's unjustified firing of talented FAA employees including natka and past members the very professionals responsible for maintaining critical air traffic control equipment their firing was a dangerous and unnecessary move these firing have consequences and one
▶ 0:34:58of them is diminished ability to ensure safety and reliable air traffic even worse there are some that think we should hand over the FAA to a billionaire who's made so many mistakes in this Doge program that he shown he is imperfect more often than not he has a history of disregarding safety protocols and called on it by the FAA and the previous administrator he came back tried to get
▶ 0:35:28the fa administrator fired and I believe that's why he resigned because he said we needed to get rid of him he also wanted to change regulations that the FAA has because it interfered with his SpaceX that the last one ended up sending one up tonight hopefully it won't land in the Gulf of Mexico like the last one did let me be clear this is not the time for Elon Musk or anyone else to play fast and loose with Aviation safety the FAA is the aviation expert and an airspace regulator that exists to protect the flying public public not solely to serve
▶ 0:35:59at the whims of a Private Industry we must reject any attempts to privatize Air Traffic Control Systems we must focus on policies that actually strengthen our air traffic control system and have broad support among industry and labor Congress has provided clear bipartisan instructions for strengthening Aviation safety these laws must be implemented not ignored as we will hear today we must hire more controllers we must Ure proper safe Staffing for safety critical positions it must never let political games or misguided corporate ambition get in the way of keeping our air space
▶ 0:36:29safe and once again I thank chairman Graves and ranking member Larson for the outstanding work they led us in and passing the bipartisan bill that just needs to be followed I yield back the balance in my time the gentleman yields I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee Mr Larson you have five minutes or take all the time you want sir got it thanks thank you chair Nells um for holding today's hearing to examine the ways that we can improve the air traffic control uh infrastructure and Staffing I want to thank
▶ 0:36:59the witnesses as well today for joining us representing Aviation labor general aviation the airlines Aviation experts you're all playing a critical role in helping us understand how we can ensure the safety of the flying public the tragic midair collision near the Washington National Airport the incident Chicago Midway Airport and recent Runway incursions provide prove a stark reality at the US Aviation system is incredibly strained at this as this committee continues to keep the victims in the families um some of whom
▶ 0:37:29are here today in our thoughts it reminds me of the importance of the work uh that we're doing and what's at stake if we fail to address the challenges that continue to plague the national airospace system or the nas so nearly one year into implementation of the 2024 fa reauthorization law and a few weeks into the new Administration uh this committee is at a critical juncture for us Aviation as the administration is I think wasting valuable time and resources we need to invest in safety Investments enhancements
▶ 0:37:59now uh enhancements to the fa's Aging ATC infrastructure we have to grow and support our skilled Aviation safety Workforce we need to reject the administration any Administration action that undermines them or demoralizes them we need these folks showing up to work every day focused on their work not on whether they're going to be able to go to work the next day the overwhelming bipartisan 2024 fa reauthorization law is a blueprint for these safety reforms that we that are needed
▶ 0:38:29to improve the ATC system these Solutions are well reasoned these Solutions were hard fought these Solutions present the best path forward towards improving the safety of the nas the fa's primary responsibility is to facilitate the safe operation of the nas which relies heavily on the expertise of the fa's workforce whether it's air traffic controllers directing aircraft across the country technical operations Specialists installing Advanced Runway equipment at US airports or even program
▶ 0:39:00assistants who are supporting various teams at the agency they all are critical in achieving the safety Mission at the FAA now Aviation experts have long raised concerns about the understaffing of the faa's safety critical roles for instance the independent Nas safety review team found that these Workforce gaps quote further erode the more the margin of safety and increased risk end quote it's alarming then that as such a tenuous time for the US Aviation the Administration has decided to
▶ 0:39:30purge the fa of employees hundreds of them these folks are not just a quote handful of Junior hirers as some have callously claimed they are talented individuals who dedicated their lives to Aviation safety and careers in service to their country so Mr chairman I'd like to enter in the record if you if you uh could uh a letter for myself ranking member Cohen ranking member connley and TNI Democratic colleagues to secretary Duffy and I'll have a chance to talk to secretary this afternoon about this letter um demanding answers
▶ 0:40:00on these firings and the unproductive what you do last week emails and how the department will prevent these actions from jeopardizing Aviation safety without objection the re thank you the re reauthorization law recognizes the importance of the safety Workforce by requiring the agency to annually hire the maximum number of controllers from the ATC Training Academy update the Antiquated Staffing models for controllers safety inspectors and other critical safety positions and expand the agency's training resources
▶ 0:40:30now I want to recognize the Administration has taken positive steps including last week to accelerate controller hiring but these efforts are going to be in vain if the indiscriminate firing of safety employees at the fa continues so the fa safety Mission also depends on very complex ATC systems that navigation and surveillance Services uh for more than 45,000 flights every day however many these fa's ATC
▶ 0:41:01uh ATC facilities and equipment or f& have exceeded their expected service life cycle which is made worse by inadequate funding requests over several administrations of the fa's f& budget a point the chairman has made eloquently in his opening statement despite increasing Appropriations in recent years the 2024 budgetary estimate shows that the fa needs $4.5 billion dollar for fne with that funding need quickly approaching six billion in a few years years so the nation's ATC infrastructure can no longer rely on archaic
▶ 0:41:31technology like floppy disc and aging radar systems to keep our Sky safe and that's why the 24 authorization directed the fa to accelerate the replacement of outdated insufficient unsafe or unstable Legacy systems the law also requires fa to prioritize the development of Runway Safety Systems and innovative air traffic management Technologies the law lays out the policies the dot can Implement now to Boler our air traffic control system and help ensure our skies remain safe for the traveling public
▶ 0:42:02I am open to new ideas and modernize the system that's a primary reason we're all here today and but having Consultants with no experience in the industry and clear conflict conflicts of interests to tell us what we already know what we already outlined in the law is unhelpful show us your work show us your results and will judge the quality of it recently a broad Coalition of Aviation state holders some of whom are here today released recommendations to modernize the ATC infrastructure I look
▶ 0:42:32forward to hearing more about those details now as this committee Works to strengthen our ATC system we all have to ensure that Aviation safety is not dictated by special Consultants but it is dictated by experts in aviation safety we can all agree the status quo of the Nas is not sustainable we agree on that that's why you wrote the fa reauthorization law that's why we put in the basically the work plan for the fa to deal with it but we need to look uh focus on our forward looking consensus
▶ 0:43:03recommendations so I'm pleased to see in a recent letter sent to this committee the majority of the aviation industry are quote not pursuing privatization of us of the US ATC Services rightly deeming a distraction from needed Investments and reforms in the past this committee has debated the issue of privatization only to see it failed to even receive a vote on the house floor all the while critical progress on actually improving our 18 system was stalled or delayed we've seen that movie before I'm glad the industry has decided
▶ 0:43:33against funding the sequel to build a safe Innovative and efficient American ATC system the path forward is clear swiftly implement the reauthorization law fully staff the FAA and invest in deploying safety critical technology look forward to hearing from today's panel on how Congress the fa and the aviation industry can work together to make this all happen that I yield back gentleman yield I now recognize the chairman of the full committee Mr Graves thank you chairman Nels and and I do want to thank our Witnesses for
▶ 0:44:03uh for all of you um being here today's hearing topic uh obviously shouldn't come as surprise to anyone because our nation's air traffic control system is outdated and it's got to be modernized for the benefit and safety of all users of the national uh airspace system while this issue has been thrust back into the spotlight following a string of tragic Gap accidents it's not a new debate and we all know that as a committee we have to decide how to utilize advancements in
▶ 0:44:33technology to supplement the daily work done by our dedicated um air traffic controllers um working the towers and and working the centers and I look forward to working with fellow members and stakeholders to find Common Sense solutions that are going to improve the hiring of controllers is going to boost air tra the air traffic control system and Advance safety for uh for the flying public public and furthermore I'm very excited that both president Trump and secretary Duffy have voiced their support for historic investments
▶ 0:45:04in air traffic control facilities and and uh Technologies this moment represents a unique opportunity I think uh to transform our air traffic control system so to build on what Rick was just saying the FAA reauthorization Act of 2024 contains some Provisions that were designed to bolster Aviation safety and modernize our air traffic control uh system by by one requiring the FAA to annually hire the maximum number of air traffic controllers for the agency's ATC from the agency's
▶ 0:45:34ATC Training Academy as re pointed out it requires the fa to conduct an audit of all Legacy systems in use by the agency and mandating that the agency develop a plan to accelerate the replacement of those Legacy systems however it's incumbent upon Congress to build upon these Provisions um in the FAA Bill and take a hard look at the way FAA invests in and modernizes our nation's ATC system in order to improve safety and strengthen America's
▶ 0:46:05uh leadership and Aviation and I was pleased to see that industry stakeholders recently signaled their support for a consensus-driven approach uh to modernizing our ATC ATC system um which has been backed by the airlines it's backed by unions it's backed by the general aviation community and many many others we simply cannot allow past that divided Congress and Industry stakeholders to distract us from getting something uh done we have to work together and I fully intend to do
▶ 0:46:36uh just that so again I'd like to thank our Witnesses uh again for their willingness to uh uh to lend us your um expertise as we continue uh to work on um as we continue this very important discussion so with that chairman Nels I appreciate it thank you thank you sir I would like to now recogniz or welcome our Witnesses uh briefly I'll take a moment to explain our lighting system uh three lights in front of you obviously green means go yellow you're running out
▶ 0:47:06of time and red means to to please conclude your remarks I ask uness consent that the witness's full statements be included into the record without objection so ordered I also ask you consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our Witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in right without objections to ordered I also ask un's consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members of
▶ 0:47:36witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection so ordered and as he written testimony has been made part of the record the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes with that Miss Krauss you are recognized chairman Graves chairman Neils ranking member LaRon ranking member M con and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss our work on air traffic control modernization I first want to acknowledge the magnitude of fa's modernization
▶ 0:48:06efforts fa managed the world's busiest and most complex system its air traffic controllers rely on 138 systems to safely and efficiently route over 45,000 flights each day many of these systems are aging and face longstanding challenges including the unavailability of parts and the retirement of retirement of knowledgeable technicians fa's modernization includes replacing and upgrading many of its systems it also involves bringing more functionality through the development of new systems and software
▶ 0:48:37these efforts when implemented can help controllers better track sequence and manage flights ensure more reliable Communications with pilots and provide more efficient flight routes while also enhancing safety to help achieve results fa must coordinate with many program schedules and its overall efforts with a full range of Aviation St St holders buying from Airlines is particularly important as they too must invest in new equipment along with these modernization efforts fa must ensure that today's system safely operates
▶ 0:49:08247 365 days a year fa has made progress implementing some aspects of its modernization efforts for example we reported that since 2018 fa met or beat several key Milestones such as deploying enhanced surveillance Technologies at planned towers and airports while some progress has been made we have identified several critical issues facing fa's efforts and areas where better management oversight is needed for example a major issue has been
▶ 0:49:38the slow pace of fa's efforts fa's 2023 operational risk assessment of its ATC systems revealed that 75% of the 138 systems are unsustainable or potentially unsustainable many of these systems have critical operational impacts on airspace safety and efficiency yet our 2024 work found that of the dozens of the systems We examined fa took on average more than four years to establish cost schedule and performance baselines for these Investments and Fa provides
▶ 0:50:08limited oversight of Investments prior to establishing a baseline after establishing a baseline these Investments take years to complete for the nine Investments that we looked at um that had established a baseline fa plans to take on average almost 13 years to complete them in addition fa did not not have ongoing Investments associated with four systems critical for safety efficiency in each of the four critical Dex gen program areas We examined in 2023 fa missed at least one
▶ 0:50:38and sometimes a number of its major Milestones fa missed some by months others by years for example fa missed a 2021 milestone for deploying initial digital communication services to all 20 facilities that serve en in route flights fa more recently anticipated completion by May 2025 fa's management and oversight of risks also needs attention in particular we found that fa's acquisition oversight council did not consistently monitor high risks
▶ 0:51:09and provided limited oversight of ATC system Investments and counter to fa policy it didn't ensure invent Investments delivered functionality in manageable segments for its overall NextGen program we found fa had not developed a detailed risk mitigation plan such a plan would identify in prioritize high risks include a range of mitigation approaches and explain why a particular mitigation was selected we have recommended urgent action by FAA to fix these critical issues
▶ 0:51:39these include developing systems and manageable segments establishing cost and schedule baselines in an expeditious manner strengthening oversight of Investments systematically assessing and addressing risks and ensuring the agency in Congress has a clear picture of costs fa generally concurred with our recommendation and has begun to act on them quick and continued action is needed to accelerate fa's delivery of modernization investments in turn such action can help fa minimize risks
▶ 0:52:09associated with Legacy systems in addressing these critical issues and implementing the related Provisions in the fa reauthorization act will be critical as traffic volume and complexity of the airspace increases congress's call for fa to lead the way towards what could be a smarter more agile and information Centric ATC system will also go a long way towards addressing these challenges this concludes my statement I look forward to answering your questions thank you Miss Krauss Mr Calo you are
▶ 0:52:40recognized good morning Chan chairman Nells ranking member Cohen and other members of the subcommittee and of course chairman Graves and ranking member Larson thank you for inviting me to testify on this critically important issue of improving our nation's air traffic control system I'd first like to take a moment to honor the lives of those lost and those impacted in recent Aviation accidents and to thank the First Responders who unflinchingly reacted quickly and put their own lives at risk safety
▶ 0:53:10Above All Is aviation's North Star it is so overwhelming in every every facet of our operations and culture that in rare moments of when rare moments of tragedy occur they Shake us to our core and we continue what we do every day look for other ways to improve our thoughts are with those lost and the families left behind I also want to take a moment to talk about Aviation safety because safety is our Northstar commercial air travel in the United States is the safest mode of
▶ 0:53:40transportation in the world it is literally safer than walking out of your own front door a Transportation safety board Cher homy has held up Aviation to other modes of transportation as a model of to safety our safety systems have many layers and many redundancies but we always look for ways to improve on the record that we have now to the topic of today I agree with you all we have a historic opportunity
▶ 0:54:10we need to change a system that are significant material challenges which is what that is wul obsolescent unreliable and inefficient due to a multitude of well-documented and inefficient um critical Staffing facility technology equipment funding and investment deficiencies it's quite a list A4 aures this committee to provide the leadership that's desperately needed to support investment in both human and Technology infrastructure within the Federal Aviation
▶ 0:54:41Administration uh you made a great start last year on the FAA reauthorization bill which is a marvelous Bill very well put together for over 14 years now I've been saying that we are at an inflection point with the nas and that we all need to act with urgency we have talked and talked a lot in this room and very little has changed at least not much for the better we're past the inflection point now I think that's clear to everybody three days after
▶ 0:55:11taking the job as CEO of a4a in January of 2011 I was asked to testify before this committee about the state of ATC I brought a stack of dot Inspector General reports and general accountability office reports 14 years later I hope this Congress and this Administration will agree that it's not acceptable to just continue to tolerate a chronically understaff system just like it's not acceptable for controllers and technicians to have to work with paper strips and floppy discs to operate
▶ 0:55:42the national airspace system in the United States I showed these to some people in my office they couldn't tell me what they were because they were under 30 we need to change and again it's a question of what we're going to do to make it different we value the committee's leadership uh we encourage by the dedication of both president Trump and secretary Duffy uh to take on these difficult challenges secretary Duffy has done an awful lot in two months to focus the dot on these matters that matter so most to our
▶ 0:56:12safety system you've mentioned it it's critical that we put the debates of the past and the inherent political inertia behind us to try to actually all join together to get something done everybody on this panel signed the letter that this committee has encouraging action we want action not political debate it's not a partisan or jurisdictional issue so while a A's detailed recommendations are attached to our written statement along with the broader list of the coalition's
▶ 0:56:43recommendations we need to AC what we need to accomplish boils down to getting an emergency funding proposal signed into the law that will ensure enough skilled people controllers and technicians to work expansion of Oklahoma City the resumption of the college training initiative which was taken away in 2014 in which the private sector can get involved and can put a surge in that pipeline of controllers that's geographically diverse and not subject to government shutdown
▶ 0:57:13a plan to ensure that they can procure modern technology while divesting the old take advantage of the procurement Authority they were given in 1995 by the Congress a long-term fix to the budget in process that will allow the fa to plan long-term capital projects look we know there no Silver Linings to this tragedy we know there are no silver bullets but we have to start somewhere and we have to take an urgency to it every single day this committee has a small en closing
▶ 0:57:43window of opportunity we'd like to help you take that o opportunity so let's do it you look forward to your questions thank you thank you sir uh Mr Buns you're recognized for chairman Hells ranking member Cohen chairman Graves ranking member Larson thank you for again letting me be in front of this committee as we mourn the loss of not only the tragedy at DCA here but also up in Philly uh up in Alaska even the midair that we had in Arizona
▶ 0:58:14we look to the NTSB to give us the answers to what happened whether it was human error mechanical weather or some touch of the ATC system but we know that they will give us those answers but what these tragedies have done has galvanized Us in the attention to what you've all talked about the unsustainability of the current system and it it's notable for me that I've been in this position for 20 years now and never have we had unanimity among unions
▶ 0:58:44among all of the associations that you work with each and every day and it it's so important that we do something at this time and I really hope that it is this committee that shows that leadership what you did during the last Congress just made us all proud it was done bipartisanly it was done with good government and it was the shining example in the last Congress of get things done have good recommendations and we've got to be able
▶ 0:59:14to follow through just just in the debate we're having right now if we go through a CR for the rest of the year we're going to be $600 million short of what the appropriators already said we needed that money has eroded back in 2010 if you compare it to what what the erosion in buying power has been since then we're a billion short of where where just we were back in 2010 so we all know as you've all said that it is unsustainable and so when our our Coalition
▶ 0:59:44got together we talked about some important things that we have to be able to do first of all is due this emergency funding if you look at the 8 billion that was asked for last year from the administration that was is only going to address about a quarter out there of the facilities that need Improvement only a quarter so it's significant infusion of dollars that we have to have in the process but also we've got to be able to look at the procurement system that the fa has back in the 90s you all gave the authorities to
▶ 1:00:15uh the FAA to be able to fix the procurement system and use some streamline authorities now we've seen some examples recently where timel at the ATO have fielded systems for surface awareness and things and done it quickly that was in reaction to what happened up in New York and at Austin and other areas that is helpful but we don't see that normally so the procurement systems obviously have to be fixed we also we built this whole system back in the 60s if you think about the technology that was available
▶ 1:00:45then compared to now we have too many facilities out there with modern telecommunications we can be able to look at it and look at it smartly develop a process over time as you call for in your bill last year and work with our controller Workforce to say okay over time through attritions ass sessions everything else let's have you live where it's affordable to live and put these facilities where they com where they work together and have resiliency but we need to all work together to be able to
▶ 1:01:15come up with a plan and right now the fa is somewhat paralyzed because they they always tell us that they can't come forward with a plan because even if they want to bring down one system and old old system that is is no longer uh ndbs or things like that that someone will get upset at them so it's been very frustrating for all of us that have said we want to work to be able to do what you you the Congress told the FAA to do and we can't get them to move forward so we have
▶ 1:01:45to collectively support you and the leadership that that you all can provide to be able to go and tell you how how to right siiz these facilities and we also have to get get rid of this craziness of trying to shut down the fa or have portions of the fa shut down um if we have a government shut down uh we obviously have our controllers that are that are forced to work but without pay but if we look at this people don't realize that when the FAA starts to prepare for a shutdown it causes
▶ 1:02:15perturbations to the whole system in their preparation which they're already starting to do in the case that we will shut down next week and then it takes weeks and sometimes months even to reconstitute so there's multiple things that we want in Industry to work together and help this committee but we surely hope that it is this committee that leads the way talks talks to your colleagues both um on the appropriation side but also over in the Senate and put smart ways where we can use the trust fund we have examples out there of the Har Harbor maintenance
▶ 1:02:46fund and other ways that we can do smart multi-year programs to be able to start to fix this so we look forward to working closely with you thank you Mr Buns Mr Daniels you're recognized good morning chairman Nells ranking member Cohen chairman Graves ranking member Larson and other members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to testify you before before you on this important subject my name is Nick Daniels and I am the President of the national air traffic controllers Association name is NAA and I'm a
▶ 1:03:16proud air traffic controller for the last 21 years as a civilian air traffic controller 19 years at Fort Worth Texas Air route Traffic Control Center and two years at Dallas Tower also proudly served as a sergeant in the United States Marine Corps with 5 years as a tower and radar air traffic controller I want to start by saying that nacka Grieves for the families friends and communities that were devastated by the aviation accident on January 29th at Washington National Airport we remain steadfast
▶ 1:03:46in our commitment to work with all federal agencies investigating that accident NAA takes pride in our role as the aviation safety organization that stands with Congress the Executive Branch the industry stakeholders to ensure that the national airspace system Remains the safest and the most efficient in the world we always seek to be part of the solution and look forward to working with Congress and the administration to address the challenges we face today and in the future naca's subject matter experts
▶ 1:04:17are play a critical role in safety training and modernization of the national airspace system it is essential that NAA is able to collabor collaborate with secretary Duffy acting fa administrator roselo members of Congress along with the industry stakeholders on this pivotal subject the 10,800 dedicated American air traffic controllers though 3,600 short of what's needed along with other Aviation safety Prof professionals that we represent throughout the FAA
▶ 1:04:47Department of Defense and federal contract Tower program are vital to the United States economy we ensure the safe and efficient movement of Millions ions of passengers and tons of cargo through our Dynamic airspace each day we would like to thank this committee for passing the fa reauthorization Act of 2024 with overwhelming bipartisan support the law includes many critical provisions on hiring training and Staffing including maximum hiring for air traffic controllers for the duration of the bill the foundation of the air traffic control
▶ 1:05:17system is the hardworking men and women the national airspace system requires a sufficient number of fully Certified Air Traffic Control to meet the fa's operational statutory and contractual requirements this includes modernizing procedures equipment and facilities and integrating the next wave of Aviation users through unmanned areal vehicles and more we are concerned that these Staffing and training advances could be disrupted by a government shutdown later this month several years ago
▶ 1:05:48when the government shut down for 35 days the FAA was required to close its training academy and missed its original hiring Target by by over 500 trainees government shutdowns also disrupt or halt the modernization programs which can take months to restart Congress has consistently provided the fa with the resources it requests through the authorization of Topline numbers and the annual Appropriations process however the fa has historically requested too little funding and we now
▶ 1:06:18have a significant backlog of system and facility sustainment and replacement many FAA facilities have exceeded their EXP expected life cycles when major system fails it can lead to air traffic delays the United States and the American people deserve the best facilities and equipment so we can provide the safest travel possible as an example the fa's 21 air Route traffic control centers were built in the 1960s Fort Worth Seattle Kansas City Memphis and Indianapolis to name
▶ 1:06:48a few they're between 59 and 64 years old the other Tower and radar facilities also require the average fa operated Tower is 36 years old to sustain many of these Legacy systems as well as to enhance and deploy critical safety and modernization programs the FAA projects it will need $6 billion annually for its facilities and Equipment account to be clear we have experienced success last year the agency and NAA were able to
▶ 1:07:18FastTrack the deployment of the surface awareness initiative a tool that will help controllers mitigate the risks of wrong surface Landings and Runway incursions now we need to deploy it to other air traffic facilities naca's continued involvement as a productive and collaborative partner will ensure that the FAA continues to deliver on these initiatives to Industry stakeholders and the flying public on time and it cost savings to the American taxpayers recently Transportation secretary sha Duffy stated he
▶ 1:07:48wanted to ensure that only the best and brightest serve as air traffic controllers NAA wholeheartedly agrees and is committing to working with Congress and the administration to incentivize the Recruitment and training of the next generation of air traffic controllers I look forward to your questions thank you Mr danels Mr Sparro you're recognized chairman Nels ranking member Cohen committee chair Graves ranking member Larson and subcommittee members thank you for inviting me to testify on behalf of pass my
▶ 1:08:18name is Dave Sparrow I the president of the professional Aviation safety specialist past represents approximately 11 th000 FAA and DOD employees throughout the United States and abroad among these employees our Airway transportation system specialist and Aviation safety inspectors past members work to ensure the safety and efficiency of the nation's Aviation system before I talk about the critical work they do I must address the turmoil being directed towards the federal
▶ 1:08:48Workforce pass is concerned by the confusing messages from the administration regarding deferred terminating probationary employees without cause and efforts to purge the federal Workforce military veterans have been fired as as have employees who have spent years with a contractor doing the same work before being recruited by the FAA past believes all these employees support the safe operation of the national Aerospace system haphazardly eliminating positions
▶ 1:09:19and encouraging resignations are having a demoralizing effect on the workforce they are a distraction for employees performing safety critical duties all parts of this Aviation ecosystem work together to accomplish a critical goal the safety of the American public the chain provided by these safety focused professionals must remain strong and every link intact pass represents the air traffic organization technical operations unit
▶ 1:09:49FAA Airway transportation system specialist within Tech Ops ensure the functionality of the pilots and controllers they touch nearly every piece of technology in the air traffic control system we cannot turn on the lights without them adequate safety and comprehensive training are critical insufficient Staffing not only leads to prolonged restoration times and increased flight delays during outages but also poses challenges in ensuring adequate shift coverage as ours is a 247 Workforce
▶ 1:10:20it creates unnecessary stress on air traffic controllers when alternative procedures are required due to an equipment malfunction if a trained specialist is unavailable for restoration pass has consistently emphasized the need for sufficient Staffing and underscored the initial absence and now the slow progress of a Reliable Staffing model to guide decisions and placements the development of the tech op Staffing model over the course of a decade has revealed a significant shortfall of at least
▶ 1:10:50800 employees while past does not agree that the model is factoring in all of the necessary data to determine the optimum number of system specialist it nonetheless reveals an understaffed Workforce furthermore system Specialists are confronted with the dawning task of managing aging systems that form the backbone of the nas the result of the 2024 pass survey underscored key concerns shared by employees Nationwide these concerns include
▶ 1:11:20the challenges posed by obsolete equipment cumbersome procedures unreliable Parts system complexity and again inadequacies in Workforce Staffing training one major hurdle faced by System Specialists is the need for a broader Vision within the FAA regarding the modernization of the Air trffic Control Systems pass is long stated that the obvious solution to concerns with reliability and operational continuity is Expediting the systems into
▶ 1:11:51the nas pass strongly believes this Workforce has the expertise and capability to assist they are committed to the mission and able to accomplish the work if given the proper resources and Staffing of utmost importance FAA employees who perform vital Aviation safety work must remain federal employees this is critical for a safe and efficient Nas is unfathomable even dangerous to consider gambling with the future and safety of our air
▶ 1:12:21traffic control system through privatization past respect calls on this committee to consider our areas of concern and recognize the critical contributions made by the employees we represent we are ready to work with you to ensure the United States Air Traffic Control System Remains the safest in the world and I'm happy to answer your questions thank you Mr Sparrow Mr ronaldi you're recognized good morning chairman Nells ranking member con chairman Graves rank
▶ 1:12:51member Larson members of the committee thank years in the fa 15 as a Frontline controller at Washington Dallas Tower and radar 15 years in leadership of the National Air Traffic controlers Association including 12 as president after reaching mandatory retirement I found founded a consulting firm to continue to provide expertise in air traffic control and support the enhancement of the national airspace system during my time as nacka leadership I had the opportunity to testify many times before this committee and other House and Senate committees
▶ 1:13:22in 2015 16 1 and 18 I testified in front of this committee and I said the status quo of the national airspace system is unacceptable in 2016 my testimony read we currently run the largest safest most efficient most complex most diverse airspace system in the world the United States airspace system is considered the goal standing in aviation industry around the world and yet we've come to uh reality that we need to change globalization
▶ 1:13:52Innovation and driving dramatic changes in a a ation industry our current structure cannot keep up the status quo is unacceptable let's not wait for the unthinkable to happen for us to act that was in 2016 here unfortunately in 2025 the United States airspace system is no longer considered the gold standard around the world several critical issues contribute to this our a aging infrastructure our outdated technology our staffing shortage
▶ 1:14:22a broken hiring and training process these things have been concerns for decades since the start of fiscal year 2018 the fa has experienced three shutdowns and 29 additional threats of shutdowns with another one on the horizon next week Decades of shutdowns and funding uncertainty has left our system Antiquated a g report in 2024 reported 58 critical systems within the national airspace system are either
▶ 1:14:53unsustainable or potentially unsustainable and posing risks to the airspace this stems from the faa's acquisition the broken acquisition management system our procurement system in EFA is ladened with bureaucratic layers that adds years to modernization projects controllers and technicians are working with the best 1980s and 90s technology from paper strips to floppy discs out of service ground Radars and broken communication systems
▶ 1:15:23right now our Specialists are supporting outdated equipment when the equipment should be supporting them one glaring example of this is the notice to Airman system two years ago no temps outage shut down the whole National airspace system despite Congress Expediting money and demanding a new program today 26 months later the FAA still has not awarded the contract for a new NM system during my 35 years in aviation the fa has
▶ 1:15:53always been short air traffic and controllers to change that we need to have multiple Paths of hiring controllers obviously Oklahoma City is the academy an enhanced College training initiative that was started last year needs to be robust direct hiring from the military direct hiring from the federal contract to programs we need to change the skills assessment test to really capture the aptitude needed to successfully to be a successful controller in the academy this
▶ 1:16:23will save a lot a lot of money we must change the way we train controllers and use Advanced tools for grading sessions and remove the subjectivity from grading we've been watching our system in a downward spiral for two decades tragically on January 29th the unthinkable did happen a midair collision at Washington National Airport over the bomic river between a Blackhawk helicopter and a Regional Jet landing on Runway 33 sadly 67 people lost their lives including three service members
▶ 1:16:54as someone who spends an awful lot of time in ice rinks in Northern Virginia I've had the opportunity to see the memorials in each rink these young figure skaters the coaches the family members it's absolutely heartbreaking they will never be able to be on the podium and receive the gold medal again we've had several warnings at Washington National Airport this did not have to happen Aviation safety is a journey not a destination we must beat back to complacency in our system every
▶ 1:17:24day and not rest on good enough when we have lives at stake and closing we are not the gold standard in aviation anymore we're not even on the world's Podium we have the best Airlines best Pilots best controllers best safety professionals I urge this committee to take NE necessary steps whether it's through policy funding regulation support to ensure that this nation regains the gold in a world Aviation
▶ 1:17:56thank you for your time uh thank you all for your testimony we will now turn to questions uh from the panel I now recognize the ranking member Mr Cohen for five minutes thank you Mr chair I appreciate the witnesses testimonies and I didn't mention earlier I appreciate the visitors we have today I'm sorry about the circumstances terrible thank you for being here Mr sparo uh and Mr Daniels U either of you we know the Trump Administration fired a significant number of natka and past members uh including those responsible for maintaining
▶ 1:18:26critical air traffic andol equipment how these Mass firings firings affected system maintenance equipment reliability and overall air safety and has the FAA made any meaningful effort to rehire or replace those skilled workers Congressman Cohen thank you for the question let me jump in here and and say no uh for as far as we know only about three employees of the 132 that uh we represent that were turn minated have been restored
▶ 1:18:56uh with regard to the rest of them I'm not aware of any uh any efforts whatsoever to bring any of them back and why were those three brought back they were instrument legal examiners at their registry in Oklahoma City and I believe uh based on the number of them that were removed and their skill set they brought to the table it was going to start to cause a backlog there when it when it comes to Pilot uh when it comes to aircraft registration thank you sir Mr Daniels R M Cohen thank you for the question um for air traffic controllers there were no air traffic controllers
▶ 1:19:27removed in those firings but we do have other Aviation safety professionals that we represent we believe them to all be essential we continue to evaluate the impacts to safety and we will make sure that we raise them through this committee uh as appropriate as they're identified and do you find that the past members that were fired are also essential for the for the FAA and for the air traffic controllers the air traffic controllers absolutely rely on any person that supports the system day in and day out thank you sir Mr Sparrow another question question we've seen calls to privatize aspects of the FAA
▶ 1:19:57and suggestions that that Elon Musk uh or someone like him not that there's anybody like him he's so Grand and amazing and powerful and Brilliant and Rich should have influence over the agency's operations does Pass Support privatization of the air traffic control system or should we instead focus on fully implementing the reforms in the 2024 FAA reauthorization law thank you for the question Congressman so the problems right now are predictable funding long-term planning faster deployment those are the issues that need to be addressed privatization
▶ 1:20:28is not a solution to those problems better funding finding ways to expedite systems in in the field uh making sure that we can plan longterm not have government shutdowns those are the solutions to the problems not privatization thank you sir uh Mr Daniels let me ask you m m Miss Krauss uh uh Elan mus starlink has been proposed as a solution for improving Aviation Communications suggested by him and some people that Virginia
▶ 1:20:58flect and internet access for aircraft potentially overriding an existing contract with Verizon in your experience does the FAA have strategies to evaluate and regulate the use of systems like Starling for critical air traffic controls Communications and what safeguards must be in place to ensure reliability and security I'm aware I'm aware of the discussions around that issue we haven't looked specifically at that question that you're raising do anybody else have a thought about that Verizon's contract Mr
▶ 1:21:28Daniels regard regardless of who's awarded the contract NAA uh stands in uh in The Firm support of remaining involved in any productive or being a collaborative partner in developing and testing and implementing any new technologies ensuring that they meet the safety standards that are set the security standards are set but anyone who Awards the contract that would be a question for the FAA and Dot Mr Cohen uh several of us serve on extion advisory committee and we were briefed about a month and a half ago just
▶ 1:21:58with the old voice switch that has to be replaced there was a replacement plan it has had to be accelerated because the obsolescence and so the teles are charging the FAA quite a bit of money which is a further drain from their accounts to be able to maintain this Antiquated system the Telecommunications backbone of this is not only fiber optic but it's also got to be satcom and everything so again I think if we have the mechanism out there where we fairly compete these contracts we've got to do something to reinforce
▶ 1:22:29that backbone thank you uh Mr Daniels Mr Spar you each represent employees who were fired have any of the folks in your unions told you that they had contact with the musk Doge team and that they thought they acted professionally or knew what the hell they were doing uh Congressman thank you again for the question no none of our members that uh were removed in the probationary status no but anybody that they so they weren't even they weren't asked about do you need these people do you need this do you need X we are not aware that there was any contact with any of those
▶ 1:22:59probationary employees thank you Mr Sparrow Congressman no on on on uh Valentine's Day at 11:30 people were getting emails saying they were terminated without any notice without any cause no no discussions with us with regard to who was essential who wasn't needed who was unnecessary nothing Valentine's Day the lady in red was she in was she in Oklahoma City too I believe so sir thank you sir are you gentleman yields I now recognize Mr Larson for five minutes go
▶ 1:23:31ahead uh thank you Mr chair getting surprised is because I this happened last week too I was given a chance to cutting line I didn't ask so wonder if something's up so but thank you very much uh chairman Nells first for uh Miss Krauss um so the reauthorization law directs the FAA to um accelerate the replacement or enhancement and going through your of of outdated systems did you set a priority in your analysis um
▶ 1:24:01of which systems might be best I know they're sustainable not sustainable and so on but even within that mix is there a top five list that you think that has to get done for whatever reason yeah I mean I think you know when we looked at uh look the information we have is based on the 2023 operational risk assessment that fa was doing I think they were in the process of updating that this year I think it would be good to get updated information on where things are at and um kind of what plans and Investments are in place when it comes to some of those unsustainable
▶ 1:24:32systems that's why we recommended in our report that it's important you know the the provision in the law is is good and to take another closer look at the Legacy systems but to get information to the Congress sooner about what systems are unsustainable and what are the steps they're taking to mitigate those risks yeah so so I mean I I am trying to hit home partly the idea that there is a to-do list there is the pro uh systems have been identified there is a to-do list we just got to get it
▶ 1:25:02done yeah I mean you know they have um there's they do have systems that have Investments associated with them in terms of but we did find some areas where they you know for the programs did not um that were critical to safety and efficiency did not yet have modernization program programs or Investments identified so again that's why it's really important that fa use that operational risk assessment to to help inform Congress of how risks are being mitigated with those systems Mr per I have a very um
▶ 1:25:32uh all analogies are imperfect this one's kind of imperfect but I'm thinking of a I'm thinking of a construction company gets a contract and they're resurfacing the bit of the road and they have safety flaggers on each end to be sure that this is work environment is done safely the work is done safely so what if um we just focus on that safety critical Mission and all we had was flaggers to keep things safe but the folks doing the construction aren't necessary because they're not related it's not related to the safety Mission doesn't make a lot of sense to do that right you need everybody there my
▶ 1:26:02analogy then is this idea of what's what happened to your the I think they're called the the program assistants or the F past members who are in support of those who are in direct safety missions but those folks can't do their safety Mission without the work of the of these program assistance is that again an imperfect analogy but some of these folks are probationary and got and now there's no one to do that program assisting job to support the safety Mission so someone's got to do it presumably the people who are supposed to the safety
▶ 1:26:33mission that that's that's correct sir I appreciate the question um so there's an old saying that the job isn't done until the paperwork is finished uh sort of how how this works everything has to everybody has a role to play to make sure that our Frontline workers can can do the work they need to the aviation safety inspectors the airway transportation system Specialists those are the the folks that are right there touch touching the touching the national airspace system but everything they do is supported by management and program assistant by
▶ 1:27:03maintenance mechanics we have aeronautical information Specialists who who draw who write who create charts and Maps identify obstacles uh they're they have been terminated without cause with many years of of of experience so there's there are seven or eight different job series of folks who do work that now the these Frontline workers have to have to stop doing what they're doing on the front line and do that work that that where that where that hole has
▶ 1:27:33been left so so the effort here has been to fire people but not necessarily get rid of the work that had to get done anyway that's correct no assessment had had been done to make a determination as to what how this impacted Aviation safety and what we've done without without actually noticing it is baked risk into the system now we have we have effectively uh down staffed that Aviation safety inspector Workforce that Airway Transportation specialist Workforce by
▶ 1:28:03causing them to go and have to do other things um thank you Mr Daniels uh in the brief time I have left um you mentioned but could you just underline what will happen if there's a government shutdown specifically with your Workforce we would have a shutdown of the Oklahoma City Academy air traffic controllers wouldn't be paid programs in modernization would halt would take months to restart we would likely lose anywhere between 100 to upwards of 500 trainees uh throughout that given period that it was the
▶ 1:28:33shut down thank you you back thank you ranky member um I now recognize uh Mr Massie thank you Mr chairman I want to direct everybody's attention to a video that we're going to play here and we're just going to play about 10 or 15 seconds of
▶ 1:29:04this that's enough you can pause it so uh Mr Daniels you were a air traffic controller at one point is that correct yes sir 26 years so can you tell me what we're looking at there on the screen you're looking at a display of a visual Tower uh it's we call it the Stars uh scope it's what they're looking at it's what they're referencing for traffic in and around the area um my constituents are always shocked when I tell them this is what air traffic controllers
▶ 1:29:34use in 2025 to monitor air traffic near airports what what is the age of this system does anybody know when this these kind of Scopes first came out I do have a uh and again thank you for the question I do have a unique background in 1999 in the United States Marine Corps I helped test that system when it was first rolling out so it's been around since them in early testing so we're looking at at a display that's it it looks like it's 40 years old but maybe it's 25 years old or
▶ 1:30:04quarter of a century um and it I know there's a desire not to complicate the screen not to put too much information on there for air traffic controllers um to distract them and I know they're probably extremely proficient at using this information at uh deconflict air traffic but it just anybody who looks at this screen and and wonders how is this 20125 and this is the state-of-the-art
▶ 1:30:34for air traffic control in the United States of America is really perplexed in my mind uh or in in my experience um Miss Krauss can you talk about these Legacy systems and uh you know when is the last time they've been updated substantially from this yeah I mean I think um you know as we point out in our report and in my statement there's about a third of the systems that are deemed unsustainable so that means that they have challenges with
▶ 1:31:04um finding spare parts um expertise you know retirement of technicians um that can help up up you know maintain these systems as well as some fund it could run into funding issues as well um I think whenever you're looking at uh modernization you you know have to assess some um a couple of different areas like whether system needs modernizing what are the costs what are the risks what's the criticality what's the system performance and so um certainly we are seeing an aging an aging at ATC
▶ 1:31:35system and a need to make sure fa is addressing those systems um you know when we unfortunately have to go back and review video and audio from situations that happen like this recent crash it seems like the audio is sometimes just barely intelligible when we get to listen to it is this the case I mean why is there static why is it hard to understand the communications between air traffic control
▶ 1:32:05and the planes sometimes is that an artifact of the recording device or is that actually what they're hearing when they're talking to each other anybody feel free to answer that Congressman I I'll start out by saying again thank you for the question quite often it is as garbled as you hear um multiple aircraft on multiple frequencies we continue to work uh with any persons or any contractors to improve it but there are many occasions where we use standardized phraseology for those very moments we know what
▶ 1:32:35the Pilot's going to say we they know and expect what to hear back so that way we reduce those Communications and even when it may sound you know garble to somebody else they know and understand our instructions and if they don't we ensure that we take the opportunity in time we do what's called hearback readback We Tell it to them they have to tell it to us and we make sure it's exact and matches in in the recent collision at DCA there was some question as to whether that the helicopter actually heard one of the last instructions to it um when we replayed it
▶ 1:33:06what can we do to improve uh anybody here who wants to M Krauss is there anything that you know that we could do to improve the audio between Communications I mean part of the nextg effort is to to implement data Communications improvements so again to improve um provide Tech like Communications between pilots and the controllers but there may be some other folks that have thoughts on that question as well Carson Massie when we when we fly to have this digital capability is a true Force
▶ 1:33:36enhancer because if the number of misreads out there is is truly significant the the controllers are talking on on multiple frequencies sometimes just directly to you but then they're they're broadcasting you know what is the ride at this alud but but also very specific information when we get this through the data Communications it's amazing how quiet it gets up at the flight levels and we're just now starting to exploit that capability it really is is a great enhancer for the great work that our controllers do and with
▶ 1:34:06the with the amount of traffic that we see soon to be in in the system we're going to need more and more of that capability thank you Mr Bonte you'll back thank you sir um now recognize Miss Scolton thank you uh Mr Barrett um and thank you than you to our chairman and ranking member uh for holding this really important hearing today Welcome to our esteemed panelists we thank you as well for your witness and testimony uh here today as well as the work that you
▶ 1:34:36do when you're not before us um it has been a challenging time for Aviation I was talking with constituents back home and we said you know this was not supposed to be uh an aviation year um but it is because we are at a moment of true crisis that is costing lives and it is essential that we respond in kind recent tragic air traffic collisions as well as Doge's senseless Mass layoffs of
▶ 1:35:06Aviation professionals have stoked uncertainty and fear in the industry and in the American public however I am proud to be a part of a committee that is so dedicated to working in a bipartisan fashion to keep our skies safe that is why we worked so hard on the FAA reauthorization of 2024 and I encourage the Department of Transportation to swiftly implement the legislation to ensure that it remains
▶ 1:35:37safer today to fly than ever before in history before I jump into my questions I just want to confirm my understanding here Mr Daniels can you please clarify Who currently represents the nation's air traffic controllers good morning congresswoman and I do I am uh a 26y year veteran of air traffic control and I am the elected National air traffic controllers Association and you speak on behalf of them here today I do okay thank you um the FAA
▶ 1:36:07uh owned and operated air traffic control tower at grr uh in my district like many across the country is in desperate need of modernization and relocation um at 60 years old this air traffic control tower is one of the oldest among the top 75 busiest airports nearly 20 years older than the majority of air traffic control Towers however the FAA has not provided grr with any sense of when it will invest in this ATC
▶ 1:36:37despite the airport having completed designs for its future Tower and despite consistently being told that we are number two on the priority list Mr CIO with the FAA having approximately 5.2 billion in a sustainment backlog for Aviation fac facilities and systems can you please speak to how greater Congressional investment in the faa's facility and Equipment account uh account would maintain and modernize ATC throughout the US to keep our Aviation professionals
▶ 1:37:08and air Travelers safe that was you sorry about that um there's a variety of ways first of all we talked a little earlier about in 1995 Congress gave uh the FAA procurement Authority it's rarely been exercised or at least we believe exercised appropriately and what we have to do is use this time to Galvanize all of us to stop talking about the things we've been talking
▶ 1:37:38about at least in my experience for almost 15 years we've talked about them over and over again I think the trick here is to figure out what everyone can do together everybody at this table has come together uh representing an awful lot of the AV Asian industry we all have our differences we came together and provided this committee with a letter of recommendations that could be done those need to be looked at carefully followed and implemented and that takes a little pressure on the FAA it takes looking at new ways of doing things
▶ 1:38:09um I recounted earlier congresswoman that when I first came here to testify 14 years ago after three days on my current job I said we were at an inflection point and I came with a stack of GAO studies and Inspector General report studies that have been written for years all saying the same thing over and over again modernizing our Aviation infrastructure and addressing the industry's workforce shortage are intricately linked we have to upgrade our aging system to
▶ 1:38:39equip our highly skilled Aviation Workforce with the tools they need to do their jobs well unfortunately the ability of technical professionals to repair our Aviation infrastructure and staff um to these towers is is very limited uh Mr Daniels with a looming government shutdown in just 10 days how would the administration and majority's potential failure to act put further strain on our air traffic controllers congresswoman thank you again for
▶ 1:39:09the question it will sever the artery which is the pipeline of air traffic controllers in the system by shutting down the Oklahoma City Academy not only that you then have air traffic controllers that deal with the stresses and pressures every day of this system making thousands of decisions in a moment's notice handling and caring for the sky now starting to worry about their daily paycheck we live like every American does and a lot of times that's paycheck to paycheck and putting those stresses stresses and pressures on that puts us in a very vulnerable position and adds risk to the system yeah I hear
▶ 1:39:39you thank you I yield back thank you I will uh now recognize myself for five minutes um appreciate the uh panel being here and appreciate your testimony before our committee today um Mr Daniels in particular wanted to appreciate your work and the work of your air traffic controllers and the job that you do keeping us safe I spent time uh flying aircraft in the Army worked you know um on one side of that uh equation and always appreciated the air traffic controllers that kept us safe and kept us in the right direction to keep our
▶ 1:40:09airspace absolutely as safe as possible um I know that um uh uh Mr Massie had that graphic up on display and I don't know if we can bring up just that screenshot that we left off on or not uh if that would be difficult but but um you could see in there the two icons representing the two aircraft it said CA and that was flashing on that screen I I was hoping you could give us a little bit of insight is to that a collision alert is that what was being flagged for the uh controller at that
▶ 1:40:39moment Congressman good morning to you uh yes while I can't speak to specifics on the incident because we are a party to the NTSB investigation going on that CA does stand for a conflict okay and uh I fully appreciate we are not the NTSB this is a legislative Committee hearing um but as we understand that um can you walk me through a little bit about what that would look like how frequent that is and whether or not it is so often in your experience not specific to this incident but in
▶ 1:41:09your experience is that alert something that is so frequent that it can become cluttered for the workload for the air traffic controllers thank you Congressman yes many different airports have many complex these to them uh some of them are involved in areas where that goes off consistently and continuously look no further than Burbank Tower when you go out there there is always some level of a general aviation or a final going over the top of another airport with aircraft that we're not working so they
▶ 1:41:39can become nuisance alerts we do have local safety committees that evaluate those alerts engage and find ways to ensure the safety of the flying public okay uh thank you this next Generation Um effort that is under way right now um would that lead to less um I don't want to call them erroneous alerts but less nuisance alerts and more actual alerts that might draw the attention of air traffic control a more uh more urgent fashion the congressman we Embrace any
▶ 1:42:10new technologies that bring controllers awareness uh enhances safety and as long as we actually work with those persons creating and designing so we don't waste the taxpayers money when bringing us a product that actually doesn't suit our needs okay okay uh would the adsb full integration assist with that or or not Congressman as far as the technical expertise on the adsb portions of it I would have to get back to you seeing what the impacts would it be in the context that you're putting it in okay thank you and then um
▶ 1:42:40Mr Sparrow um a question for you um can you walk us through a little bit of the tcast system how that works and I know it's cockpit to cockpit and um you know maybe the safety track record on that and some of what that has involved thank you for the question Congressman so tcast is not a system that our our technicians uh maintain that's something that the airlines uh handle themselves okay does anybody on the panel have expertise uh with tcast at all that can opine on that
▶ 1:43:10well sir as you know as an aviator we've got multiple systems that are out there the tcast though in in this case it does get disinhibited or um is not enabled when you get close to the ground and that's why adsb uh gives you a capability to be able to have awareness of altitude especially you know we looked at that that video there that's the two-dimensional depiction the three-dimensional depiction is available to us as pile Us in the cockpit
▶ 1:43:41using adsb when we get down uh closer to the ground now that means that everybody's got to have adsb operational and using it but it's an enhancer that also helps Mr Daniels uh Community to be able to go and help with the deconfliction sure and I know that the uh the tcast is the audio tone is disabled below a certain altitude but uh I believe it's below 500 feet generally is that your experience um but the alert for that would come far
▶ 1:44:11it's not just before impact right there's a standoff separation that would that would um that would alert through tcast prior you know if you were approaching 500 ft the audio tone and the alerts would have come prior to that threshold in all probability correct yes sir and it and it gives you commands to be able to go and and do the actual maneuver of the aircraft to Deacon flit okay um my last question kind of short on time um for any of you on the panel this next Generation
▶ 1:44:42air transportation system um I know it's heavily relying upon GPS we have fewer and fewer groundbased vs that are operational right now is there any concern conc erned that as we migrate away from the Radio based ground systems that we are putting all of our eggs in a GPS basket that could open a vulnerability that we would not have a a backup system for um for that purpose yeah Congressman let me let me jump in I think uh resiliency is is very important uh there is a there's a
▶ 1:45:12lot of issues with GPS now and and you hear about spoofing and and other aspects it's very important that the FAA maintain a resilient system with groundbased groundbased technology do you know how many briefly are percentage wise no longer operational groundbased radio signal vs so they uh there was a v they called it the VR man program a few years ago that they began to phase out a number of them uh it was done in a in a risk-based process but uh probably
▶ 1:45:42half of them have have been eliminated around the country I could we could get you the numbers though thank you sir appreciate it thank you um now recognize Mr Johnson thank you Mr chairman right now the American public is understandably concerned passengers Pilots flight attendants and air traffic controllers are feeling the weight of uncertainty wondering if the systems in place to protect them are as strong as they need to be the recent incidents we've seen are not just
▶ 1:46:12unlucky mistakes they are warning signs of a system under strain outdated Technologies overworked and understaffed air traffic controllers and years of underinvestment have put unnecessary risks into our Aviation system that's why this committee came together and Republicans and Democrats alike passed the 2024 Federal Aviation Administration reauthorization law we don't
▶ 1:46:43always agree but on this we did we all understood that hiring more a air traffic controllers updating old Staffing models and improving Air Traffic Control technology were not optional they were necessary steps to keep our skies safe despite this clear bipartisan mandate our aviation industry is seeing delays in action and now even cuts to the very Workforce we fought to strengthen
▶ 1:47:13I am stunned that co-presidents musk and Trump are firing over 500 FAA employees including those maintaining radar systems and Landing equipment when Aviation safety is already at risk and Americans are deeply troubled in concerned about how our Aviation safety is being compromised by co-president Elon musk's glaring conflict of interest as he tries to coers the FAA
▶ 1:47:43into cancelling the contract with Verizon and awarding without competitive bidding the contract to overhaul the Communications system system that is the backbone of this nation's air traffic control system to one of his own companies in other words after firing essential and experienced employees the folks who are left at FAA are being leaned on to replace Verizon which
▶ 1:48:13won the contract and award the 2.4 million billion doll contract for the air traffic control system to the man who's threatening to fire them this kind of corruption and cronyism is breathtaking and it's a threat to the safety of the public this is not making our aviation industry safer or better it's jeopardizing Public Safety and our ability to track and manage air traffic safely
▶ 1:48:44what troubles me even more is the Silence from my colleagues across the aisle who helped pass this FAA Bill where is the account ability and where is the urgency um Mr Spiro uh stress is never h helpful especially in high stakes professions the faa's air traffic organization which provides air traffic control services across the United States is undeniably
▶ 1:49:14one of the most stressful jobs in the world there's absolutely no reason the government or Elon Musk should add unnecessary challenges to this already high pressure profession yet we're witnessing actions that can only be interpreted as ATT tax on these essential workers actions that directly undermine their ability to perform their duties Mr Sparrow do you believe that these actions
▶ 1:49:45significantly increase the stress on air traffic controllers in an already demanding job so thank you for the question Congressman I I can't speak to the controllers I can speak to our Workforce though and and I'm sure Nick will jump in here on controllers but uh the amount of of constant stress and questions that are coming every week and the accusations and the uh the negative comments about federal
▶ 1:50:15employees are causing folks to regularly now wonder if they're going to have a job tomorrow and uh as they begin to pull people out of their positions and we all have to take on more responsibilities uh every single day uh folks wonder how this is going to play out it does cause them stress and and and I will and and I let me ask let me ask Mr Daniels to answer that question also Mr Daniels yes Congressman good morning thank you for the question air traffic controllers
▶ 1:50:45deal and have to manage with stress day in and day out anything that adds to that any uncertainty is what brings uh an added risk that has to be evaluated into the system NAA remains absolutely committed to working on any and all new technologies as long as we are part of that process a collaborative partner in it in not only the implementing of it but also the testing and the development and we want to ensure the safe standards uh and the security of and that happened with Verizon but it has not happened with uh Elon Musk has it the fa and the do award
▶ 1:51:15the contracts Knack is not involved in who does that so I mean if you're leaning on somebody to award you the contract and you're threatening them with uh termination um they award the contract to save their own jobs and then put the American people at risk with that I back thank you the gentleman yields back and I recognize Mr burett for five minutes for questions thank you Mr chairman um I don't I'm not
▶ 1:51:45a pilot nor do I ever aspire to be but I would say for the record that my mama actually flew an airplane during the second World War very proud of her she was incredible lady um and if she were to walk in right now I would probably think I was in trouble for something but which I probably would have been but anyway um I know we have 17 critical air traffic control systems that are classified as unsustainable and we've got a timeline for replacement somewhere between
▶ 1:52:166 to 13 years and what is the FAA doing to prioritize and mitigate the risks during that period of time we can just go down the line real quick only got five minutes and I'm not going to give a speech yeah I think that what you're citing is the operational risk assessment and certain cases they have developed modernization Investments for those um uh but there were some additional systems that needed
▶ 1:52:47plans Congressman I think the answer is not enough uh we're so far behind so many of these systems um I think the question for all of us and for this committee is based on the fa reauthorization bill of last year and what we now know needs to be further done how do we expedite it how do we make action happen Congressman uh during the last Administration uh fa administrator Whitaker started to put out a plan called Nas 2040 you know trying to say
▶ 1:53:17what's the vision going to be like 15 years from now and before it got started we in Industry asked okay have has there been a study about how many facilities we really need which then would set your modernization priorities out there and again we don't have to do it tomorrow we we would have a logical plan it it just never got going it it just keeps getting stalled and that's why we hope that what with what you told the FAA to do working with us and Industry we can collectively
▶ 1:53:48come up with a plan presented to you the Congress and say okay can we get going execute Congressman I'll be brief thank you uh for the question we remain committed to working with the FAA on these priorities and I believe we align on most of them telecommunications being the number one nms being the number two both of those can take down the entire National airspace system our INF uh information display systems that need updated so that way we can have more heads up time talking to aircraft and then our radar and surveillance
▶ 1:54:18as you noted earlier uh was the surface awareness initiative or higher those things are if we prioritize and focus we can make some actual progress with this committee Congressman thank you for the question uh at this point right now of those of those systems that we're talking about the soonest implementation we would see of any of them is 2030 and many of them right now have no investment whatsoever so uh we're we're at the moment still waiting thank you Congressman 92% of the f& budget that the fa
▶ 1:54:48gets uh is spent on the Legacy system the antiquated system from the 1980s and 1990s say that again how much 92% of their F budget is spent on that 8% is spent on so given the fact that their procurement process and their acquisition management system is broken they're now doing a lot to modernize the system at this time we'll start at this end and go the other way um but are the Legacy systems more susceptible
▶ 1:55:18to cyber security threats and I'm wondering because sometimes we find out that they're so Antiquated that nobody has the ability to crack into them it's kind of like when we got we thought we'd get a mjet during the Korean War and we got one and it turned out it was just a a tin tube with with with actually it was tube types and I mean it was it was pretty Antiquated go ahead the Legacy system is very Antiquated uh and that's one of the main reasons why modernization is so hard because if you take a modern
▶ 1:55:49piece of equipment and try to uh bring it into the national airspace system you have to dumb it down so we can deal with this Legacy equipment we experienced that when we uh put the in rout modernization project together we actually had to we had to make it parallel the host computer so that we can roll it across country Mr Spar some of the Legacy systems that we're talking about out there right now are
▶ 1:56:19dependent uh uh the changes are going to be depend dependent upon the the the new fiber uh the the new federal Enterprise Network system fence uh and the implementation of that that is some of the backbone that Mr ral's talking about that that has to be interfaced um many of these Legacy systems right now are are they're they're operational but we can't sustain the parts for them anymore and that's the big problem thank you thank you Mr chairman I'm out of time appreciate you thank you the gentleman yields back and I recognize Mr Carson for five minutes for questions
▶ 1:56:49thank you very much uh chairman after the terrific midair collision at DCA and the tragic lost of loss of 67 lives including my constituent with asra Hussein I believe it's past time for us to fix the problem of heavy military helicopter traffic around Washington National which is one of the busiest runways in the country we all know I am relieved that there's a pause right now on Military traffic but I'm also interested in learning if you all agree that changes should
▶ 1:57:19be made permanently I want our military aviators aviators to get uh all the Hands-On training possible but not during the rush hour my question is do you think changing the air traffic patterns at DCA would improve safety overall or is just just a one-off congressman um as our testimony for Airlines for America indicates um we support permanently
▶ 1:57:49suspending those helicopter flights around CA um with certain exceptions um and that would be physical or medical emergency and Military um we also think that helicopter around other major airports that are busy should be re-evaluated and looked at for permanent change Congressman again thank you for the question it is imperative that we remember that we have safety processes in say in place today and we have a local Safety Council
▶ 1:58:20that deals with these critical issues not not only just at DCA but across the entire National airspace system and that is why it's imperative that the FAA and NAA continue to work so that way we can make that determination at the local level of what the safest approach is rather than rope mandates or anything else right after that accident was that team going into effect working together to implement uh change in temporary procedures because we had uh this process in place yes sir
▶ 1:58:50Congressman that um area where the accident happened on January 29th is a known conflict area it's been a known conflict area for years the fa should look at these known conflict areas and deconflict them so we don't H so we don't have to worry about that situation again thank you also in terms of transitions from the military what more should we be thinking
▶ 1:59:21about in terms of our opportunities from military Aviation and aviation maintenance expertise that could play a role in addressing the civilian Aviation Workforce issues that we're all facing now and what improvements in current practices or programs could be helpful Congressman I think it's going to be a continued effort of going out as it has been stated many times over of the involvement and engagement in not
▶ 1:59:51looking at just the short-term but looking at the long-term the the true change is going to come from this committee support of long-term investments in our modernization in the infrastructure and the equipment that we use anything else will just be a Band-Aid that will not solve the actual issues of today and Congressman I would add that what you call for in last year's reauthorization also addresses that those Workforce issues uh you have helped us push the FAA to be able to do training programs
▶ 2:00:21to get fa employees familiar with new technologies that's out there so we're able to go and and do this familiarization at our companies with the technology that the manufacturers are providing to our operators and to our controllers and that's that's vital to get them familiar because technolog is moving so fast and and the more that we can get the workforce to be out there with industry to know what the latest is that we're Fielding actually enhances safety in the system congressman
▶ 2:00:52one other additional ad is that human element that uh we were just speaking about there is recruiting the best and brightest to be able to handle those Technologies along with the stress and the pressure and we look forward to partnering with this committee and with the secretary Duffy and the FAA on recruiting and retaining those that we currently have having to deal with all of these constant changes yes sir Congressman thank you I'll add to this too um the I think recruitment right now is is sort of a difficult
▶ 2:01:22thing in the federal Workforce I don't really know anybody out there that's dying to become a federal employee right now given all the attacks that are happening on them and that's what we're hearing from our folks thank you all thank you chairman thank you the gentleman yields back and I recognize chairman Nells for five minutes for questions uh thank you sir and thank you again the panel for being here I I've listened to uh most of your testimony here miss Krauss you talk about the the 75% of the 138 systems
▶ 2:01:52unsustainable Mr Calo you talk about you know it is the safest mode of transportation I agree uh we need to act with urgency your testimony said in 2011 you testified and you know we still have floppy discs still today how many years later Mr Bruce you're saying like we we need to do something we have to do something now we have to do it now there Mr raldi you
▶ 2:02:23talk about the Aging infrastructure and 35 years the FAA has always been short of controllers it appears to me that these issues are all self-induced we are our own problem these are self-induced and and the problem I see is it it seems like it takes a tragedy for us to do something is it going to take another tragedy for us to finally move the football
▶ 2:02:54forward I personally believe we should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing this to get where it's at to to allow the technology I mean it's Antiquated it's old but we talk about and and being the chairman of the subcommittee we talk about we are the gold standard we are the gold standard the world is watching but yet when you listen to some of the testimony I've heard today do we want the American people to know that we are aware of the issues and we are going to address it so the next
▶ 2:03:24time you take your family on vacation you can face safe and secure feel safe and secure knowing that you're going to get to your final destination and that your government is finally working for you because I don't I don't know if I can say that today we are the gold standard but it just appears to me we're not acting like it I think uh Mr Ronaldo you made it very very clear you made it very clear said we are not are we the gold Stander or are we
▶ 2:03:55not I uh Mr Daniels we talk a little bit about I so I went down to the Oklahoma facility last week uh uh with secretary Duffy we visited the training facility and we were talking and I I don't know I mean I guess we Congress I found these these ages are kind of arbitrary I don't know why we feel we need to fire a an air traffic controller at 56 I mean we just do at 56 you're too damn old I don't know I'm too old to be an air traffic controller
▶ 2:04:26certainly this guy is too I think he looks pretty healthy doesn't he don't you think he would be a great air traffic controller nope he's too old why because Congress says you're too old Congress says you just can't do it you don't have the wherewithal to do it I don't understand why we come up with arbitrary ages and I think Mr Daniels do you think that 56 years old is that the number and and should that be changed I mean knowing how people are living today and the lifestyles we lead chairman thank you for the question
▶ 2:04:56do believe that the age 56 is the standard of where we should be it does not solve and moving or adjusting that does not solve the immediate Staffing crisis well I would like to I would like to know uh how many have requested waivers and I asked that question other day I want to so how many have requested waivers because I believe waivers are available for people I would like to know how many uh our atcs that we have out there whether they're in root or in the towers that are over 56 years old because me personally I take I I look at what we do in congress with
▶ 2:05:26with airline pilots Congress again in our Infinite Wisdom we fire you at 65 we fire you we say you're just too old my goodness graci if not be a bad idea maybe we should fire members of Congress at 65 say you're too old to be here you can't perform your duties because you just don't have that skill set anymore you I mean it some of these these ages uh I think it's age discrimination in many many ways and and I don't understand why we have it but I think if
▶ 2:05:56you would if somebody would come up with a I'll uh some just we just shouldn't be firing people at 56 years old if they're willing to work and they have the capability to do so and they've got that experience I think I I'm going to disagree with you Mr danis I think that we would be able to to fill the slots how old were you so you were in the military and you were in ATC right military that is correct when did you transfer into the civilian sector when I was 24 years old 24 so if you were 32
▶ 2:06:27you couldn't have done it I could have sir at that age 32 I could go into I could transfer they're saying there's an age limit at 31 years old I'm getting bad information then that if you are have military servicer you could join up until age 35 so you Contin Jo up to the age of 35 what you probably didn't even have a house at 35 yet how I mean I'm just saying I don't know why we have 31y old limit as well so if you want to get it to be an ATC you got to be under 31 years old and that's just another number dealing with Federal retirement I think it's ridiculous
▶ 2:06:57with that I Y back thank you the gentleman yields back and I recognize Miss brownley for five minutes for questions thank you Mr chairman uh Mr chairman I asked for a unanimous consent to enter the following uh into the record of February 14th letter from TNI Democrats to Transportation secretary Duffy urging the Swift implementation of the 2024 fa fa a reauthorization law a letter from the airline pilots Association to
▶ 2:07:27this committee a letter from the association of professional flight attendants to Congressional leadership a statement from the association of uncrewed Vehicle Systems International and finally a letter from the association of flight attendants CWA to this subcommittee without objection thank you Mr chairman uh Mr Daniels and Mr Sparrow I I'd really like to begin my com M by thanking both of you um and the over 30,000 FAA employees
▶ 2:07:57who you represent who work hard every single day to keep our Airways safe the American people and all of us who rely on your expertise and professionalism are deeply grateful for all that you do we understand that these are complex jobs that take many years of training and I want to be clear that we value your hard work your dedication to public service so thank you for that uh Miss Krauss I wanted to ask you from your
▶ 2:08:28Vantage Point um what impacts uh of the uh administration's firing of FAA Personnel having on air traffic control modernization planning and execution at this time we haven't looked at the impacts of those uh of of the changes well you have weighed in on of lack of staff currently yeah I mean I think when we've looked at um ATC modernization when it comes to especially some of the
▶ 2:08:58Legacy systems and aging systems I mean one of the big challenges is not just spare parts but also having those knowledgeable technicians in place to be able to maintain those system so that that's certainly a challenge thank you um Mr Daniels can you um uh comment again on the um the FAA staff firings what's the morale like um amongst your membership thank you congresswoman as far as the air traffic controllers go it is the stress and the pressures uh ever since the accident and
▶ 2:09:28the regular stresses that we go through now the other Aviation safety professionals that we represent are absolutely worried about you know uh what they hear of what's called risk or reductions in workforces as well as the probationary hirings uh that does have them uh not focused on their job at hand and absolutely worried each and every day and Mr Sparrow can you comment as well on the morale and thank you for your comments about our our Workforce it's greatly appreciated I certainly can there are several job series
▶ 2:09:59out there we'll talk about maintenance Mechanics for a for a moment the sustainment of the of the current national airspace system depends partly on the physical infrastructure a lot of these maintenance mechanics are are are skilled trades people that the FAA hires they're not uh uh uh unskilled people they bring them in they bring in a variety of different different uh trades including uh Electrical uh expertise so they're uh responsible for helping us restore some
▶ 2:10:29of these buildings and bringing them back up to the to the uh the state that they need to be in until they can obviously be replaced uh because now many of them aren't there uh we don't have the ability to continue on with some of these projects along with some of the management and program assistants who are responsible for the logistics at some of these airports around the country so slowly but surely we're grinding to a halt on many of these projects thank you and um we've heard um that probationary firings
▶ 2:10:59uh primarily affected non-safety critical and less experienced staff is that accurate can you clarify that happy to happy to say Let me let me talk about the um the aeronautical Information Specialist for a moment who create the charts the maps identify obstacles help develop uh uh performance-based navigation procedures that air traffic controllers and aviators utilize those folks are very experienced many of them are former controllers or Pilots
▶ 2:11:29or or have been working at this for many years as a contractor before the FAA decided to hire them and and lured them over uh recruited them and said we really want you to work here so one one day they're a contractor the next day they're a federal employee doing this work for many years 19 of them were were fired sarily on the 14th of February I mean that that shows you clearly that these are these are uh qualified professions uh thank you for that and it looks like my time is up and I will yield
▶ 2:11:59back Mr chairman thank you the gentle lady yields back and I recognize Mr Johnson for five minutes for questions I think Mr Nells and Mr Calo both said it right we really do need action not just political discussion uh we have a lot to do it is worth noting I think last year during FAA reauthorization we did some good things clearly Doge has put a lot of American attention on making sure that taxpayer dollars are invested in the right things we did some of that in FAA reauthorization
▶ 2:12:29we said that we need to prioritize the replacement of federally owned towers that are more than 50 years old I've been in one of those Towers at sou Fall South Dakota a small hub airport or rather a small airport where I fly out of every Monday morning and that Tower is aged clearly the men and women who work there are doing their best but we're not really giving them the right tools and so I am glad that we were able together to successfully prioritize the replacement of towers like and sou Falls of course the hard the bricks and Mort are not the only infrastructure
▶ 2:13:00we care about we also need truly trained and dedicated individuals and I am told Mr Daniels that it takes uh years to get a fully trained and certified air traffic controller I'm told the main constraint to getting them ready to go is the field training and that that's about 85% of their training time what what can Congress do to uh avoid those constraints and those choke points thank you Congressman appreciate the question say number one is
▶ 2:13:30the continuation of the Recruitment and training of those individuals not the stop Ando ways that it's been done and again anything that impedes that such as a government shutdown absolutely sets us backwards but as far as the training goes itself we have engaged and been working with the agency it's mainly going to be around simulators that reduces 27% of the training time saving taxpayer money saving uh you know our ability to be in the ready to go any moment when it comes
▶ 2:14:00time to talking to a live aircraft so our investment in those training simulators will be a key change okay so I want to make sure I'm tracking here and and I would tell you the two of the very best members of Congress are Frank Lewis and Stephanie bis I'm sorry Frank Lucas and Stephanie bis and they've uh they the Air Traffic Academy is in their area and and they've told me that even during the best of times so not during a government shutdown we still don't we're not doing right by the field training now you're talking about simulators do those simulators
▶ 2:14:30count for the field training as well they do once you once you get out of the Oklahoma City Academy you go through training evaluation Milestones number one is you show up and start doing book work number two is you start doing simulator work uh the enhancement of those simulators and many of them are outdated or just a laptop alone uh those are an impediment to our progress and then the actual Talking To Live air traffic is next okay so that uh you're so we should do more investment in these simulators because that will you're telling me that will reduce
▶ 2:15:00the choke point Congressman it's been uh agreed upon by the agency and NAA that it reduces the time by 27% okay so then Mr raldi same general topic to you is it my understanding that some of these new graduates out of the academy we immediately send them over to have them be teachers or trainers at the Academy is my understanding right about that uh say question again sir I'm sorry do do we have new somebody had told me that we've got newly graduated folks out of the academy who then are shifted over to start
▶ 2:15:30being trainers at the Academy rather than being out in the field not uh I don't know anything about that I don't think that's happening gotcha so the same question that I I posed to Mr Daniels what can Congress do to move us in the right direction well I think that uh Congress really has to hold the fa accountable to the fa bill that you put together last year I mean if you just look at uh you can go through the 180-day window that they're supposed to provide reports back to you I mean digital Towers is one of them they were supposed to provide a p uh
▶ 2:16:00report back by November 12th they have not they were supposed to provide uh three locations of where you were going to test digital Towers live traffic they have not they're missing all those deadlines if you go back to your 2018 fa reauthorization bill they missed over 60% of those deadlines you got to hold them accountable for these great bills you guys are doing up here yeah boy that is really well said uh Mr Calo what are we missing here uh not much I would Association myself with the remarks of both Mr raldi and Mr Daniels
▶ 2:16:31I think one thing that I mentioned earlier Congressman that you can do um we need to pump up Oklahoma City we commend secretary Duffy for doing that it's not going to be enough the numbers don't add up there is a program called the college training initiative we started calling on the Biden Administration to reinstitute that it was decimated in um for not very good reasons and it was a training pipeline that helped keep the number of controllers current and could help again uh the Biden
▶ 2:17:01Administration ended up only certifying four schools two of them in Oklahoma there are many more out there like Von College in New York people can be trained locally and then put into trons and Towers in that area and well and Mr Kelly I just say you're saying it exactly right and as I yield back I would note that Frank Lucas and Stephanie Bay have they would Echo your ments that we have not done right by the OK Oklahoma City Academy and we need to do better with that I would yield back thank you the gentleman yields back and I recognize M fushi for five minutes for
▶ 2:17:31questions thank you to the chair and the ranking member for holding this hearing and thank you to the witnesses for being with us today it has been made tragically clear that the FAA is facing a dire shortage of air traffic controllers and it has been reported that more than 90% of us airport towers are under staff despite this the Trump Administration and Doge have fired approximately 400 probationary FAA employees
▶ 2:18:02many of whom were in roles of essential um that are essential to Aviation safety after coordinating these Mass layoffs Elon Musk recently acts retired air traffic controllers to Contin to consider returning to work Mr Daniels in your experience with the national air traffic controllers Association how will these firings exacerbate the existing shortage of air traffic controllers and
▶ 2:18:32additionally can you speak to how many air traffic controllers would need to come out of retirement to meet the current need thank you Congressman we appreciate the uh question the solution is that long-term commitment that this committee has shown and put forward in the fa reauthorization Act of 2024 for the hiring and training the next generation of air traffic controllers any person that was to be hired back if I leave right now today to go back to my home facility of Fort Worth Texas I would have to completely
▶ 2:19:02go Rego through the training process uh it is not where you stay standard you do it one time and then you're going to just do it again so the rehiring of air traffic controllers will just take away from the time of those that are going to have 25 plus careers that we need to actually invest in and sustain the system going forward and furthermore your testimony discusses the potential harm a government shutdown would have on air traffic control hiring and training if there isn't any good
▶ 2:19:32faith negotiation and the government ultimately ends up shutting down on 14th can you elaborate on the dangers such a shutdown would pose to the air traffic controller industry specifically and Aviation safety more broadly yes congresswoman uh the air traffic controllers cannot take another hit right now of delaying this issue that's what a government shutdown does not only does it
▶ 2:20:03impact the modernization but it will shut down the Oklahoma City Academy that we are relying on to bring in these new air traffic controllers that so we can train them anything that stops that by either a day a week or a month sets us backwards because those people have to be reset recycled and later trained and many of them don't come back because they suddenly do not want to work in that type of career field or go without Zer paychecks for or not even a paycheck just go with zero dollars because they quit another job to try this one and they quite often move on to
▶ 2:20:33other uh areas thank you for that Mr chair I yield back the balance of my time thank you the gentle lady yields back and I recognize myself for five minutes for questions I would like to extend my gratitude to our Witnesses for agreeing to testify before our committee today it is has become readily apparent that the issue of our aging air traffic control system infrastructure can no longer be ignored as we've heard here today many of these systems are out of date and pre present serious safety and operational
▶ 2:21:03concerns for our national Aerospace system these problems are not new and modernization efforts have consistently been plagued with delays Mr Calio in your testimony you noted that the FAA failed to fully utilize congressionally enacted procurement reforms intended to improve modernization efforts what can Congress and the federal government do to encourage full utilization of FAA procurement processes thank you Congressman a lot of it has to do with oversight um you know we
▶ 2:21:33have a great reauthorization bill from last year passed on a huge bipartisan basis um the tools are there they need to be used and part of what I was saying earlier is we all get together and we talk about it we talk that we're at a crisis point we need to have this Galvanize us to figure out how we're going to move forward and actually make it happen I confess that I've never made that full Arc from talking to getting it done because it has to happen on the ground at the FAA and again I think that requires
▶ 2:22:03reauthor or I mean oversight um also I think there are some media things that can be done um our testimony attached to it is the Coalition letter where we provide recommendations there's a4a recommendation short-term medium-term and longterm we need an emergency funding bill we we've let these problems go and linger and I think Mr raldi pointed out um that 92% of the f& budget goes to patching these old systems together we need to face the problem it's we are at a crisis and Congress
▶ 2:22:34is the only entity that can really do it along with the administration say we need to make a change now you know we're not going to let officer management and budget we need to figure out we need to do this as an investment not only for people but for our economy thank you Mr Buns you elaborate on how funding that has previously been used for the modernization of existing infrastructure has failed to provide a reliable source of funding to address this aging
▶ 2:23:04infrastructure could you expand on that yes sir uh you know if you look look at the way we are not able to use the trust fund and we go year and then we stop and then go another year and another year so we don't have that that multi-year procurement or Capital funding that any business would do to be able to modernize so obviously it's something that we have to work with the appropriators but in our conversations and I think all of us with conversation with the appropriators
▶ 2:23:34they're also very willing to work with this committee to be be able to say okay is there a different way to use it and you know we do have that example of the harbor maintenance fund but there are other mechanisms out there if we pay into the airport and Airways trust fund but we are not able to use it to be able to modernize the way we should so if we get that emergency infusion of funding and then couple that with being able to use the trust fund wisely we can make some real change thank you and
▶ 2:24:04then finally for Mr Daniels what do you view as the primary cause of low Staffing levels in air traffic control towers and what can the FAA do to address this for shortterm and long term there's a thank you chairman for the question there's a few different points they got to hit here one is the funding that we were just talking about has to continue because that funding also continues for the actual hiring of air traffic controllers and ensuring that they have the support tools and resources number two is we agree with secretary Duffy
▶ 2:24:34on that we must recruit the best and the brightest that's going to be partnering in sitting down and engaging in a negotiation with this Agency on uh everything from pay benefits and the stressors and pressures of the system as well and then lastly it's going to make sure that we invest in Oklahoma City to continue uh the not only the maximum throughput but increase that throughput uh at the actual training facility itself all right thank you and with that I yield back I'd like to recognize
▶ 2:25:05misss PO for five minutes questions thank you Mr chairman um and thank you to our ranking member uh for holding this hearing at a very critical time for Aviation safety in America the air space around the New York City metro area which includes my district is the most crowded and complex in the entire country yet despite this the New York Regional Air Traffic facility
▶ 2:25:35has been has not been spared from air traffic controler safety uh Staffing problems this is a major safety concern with serious consequences we saw those consequences early last year when there was a near collision at Kennedy Airport within our congested airspace we can also find a constant stream of helicopter traffic many of which are
▶ 2:26:06nonessential air tours I am anxious anxious to work with the committee to identify ways to improve safety and restore confidence to the Flying public there are few new areas more important for us to focus on we are in desperate need of air traffic controllers in this country in recent years we have barely hired more controllers than what than
▶ 2:26:36we have actually lost Mr Daniels why does it take so long for someone to become fully certified as an air traffic controller how can how can we improve the pipeline of Future air traffic controllers to meet our growing needs this is something that we really need to address and we need to find ways to do it and need to do it now what say you yeah
▶ 2:27:06congresswoman thank you for the opportunity to clarify what many people don't know we're 3,600 certified professional controller short today you cannot hire 3,600 people to go in and start working in a facility it takes years of training it takes you roughly between two to three years from the time you're hired and that's just passing the initial qualifications we go then then through multiple training evaluation milestones we go to an Oklahoma City Academy if you don't meet the standard you're removed as an air traffic controller you
▶ 2:27:36then get assigned to a facility maybe in your hometown it could be completely across the country you then go and start with simulation training and bookwork if you don't meet the standard you're removed as an air traffic controller you be then begin talking to air CFT and if you don't meet the standard you're removed from being an air traffic controller we do this to ensure that when it's critical it's needed the most that your life is in our hands that you have all the training and expertise to rely on and you do not have to worry what
▶ 2:28:06evaluation that we've gone to you know we meet the high standard that we demand and that we ensure everyone that we work with meets thank you thank you for your response but you know we are living and at a time where there is so much stress going on all around the country and this is certainly true um for our air control um air traffic controll employees uh in your testimony uh Mr Daniels you describe how air traffic
▶ 2:28:36controlers shortage is led to grueling shifts for what is already a high pressured job what is the impact of shortage on the workforce Mental Health and what can Congress do to help we really need to address this at a time that is so pivotal in our country congresswoman we appreciate it we look forward to engaging the stresses and pressures of this job that normally exist are uh incredible
▶ 2:29:07that is the reason that we have to continue recruiting the best and the brightest that we have to continue incentivizing not only those to come into this career field but to remain in this career field because we're working six day work weeks 60 power in in that week any person that goes out and lives a regular life that only has four days off in a month knows that they're going to at some point either break want to walk away from and yes we have a medical system that does not uh meet the standards of today as
▶ 2:29:37in getting help that each and every person needs it is archaic it needs to be reviewed there are Arc recommendations that we look forward to working with the agency AR to implement and bring our controllers standards up to uh for us to address our mental health issues while going through all of this thank you so very much I look forward to working with you on that as well thank you Mr chairman I yield back thank you the gentle lady yields back and I recognize Mr Berg begich for five minutes for
▶ 2:30:07questions thank you um question from Mr raldi uh we recently experienced tragedy in Alaska with an airline flight from unilet uh that crashed outside of gnome it was a reminder of Alaska's unique uh challenging operating environment as you know Alaska is extremely remote in comparison to lower 48 Alaska has the highest per capita air accident rates of any state in the nation
▶ 2:30:38what changes in process or technology do you believe would improve Aviation safety in remote regions of the nation like Alaska thank you sir thank you for the question uh yes uh Aviation is the number one mode of transportation in Alaska um and it's it's Unique you need to have the most modern equipment you certainly should be utilizing spacebase adsb and all types of other tools to make sure to give the most
▶ 2:31:08accurate weather certainly the most accurate situation that's going on there um our hearts go out to the families and and the people that were lost in that in that crash but it's um it happens a lot up there and we need to we need to enhance the safety of the system and really focus on it thank you very much um you mentioned a statistic 92% of uh Federal
▶ 2:31:39funding that's going to support technology is going to maintain existing technology and we heard uh as well that uh so much of that of that technology has aged out that it's not even able to be maintained any longer um can you just expand for just one one minute on the importance of investing in aviation technology modernization and why that's so important yeah absolutely we're stuck in the 1980s and 1990s because we're stuck
▶ 2:32:09with uh you know with the fa um facilities and Equipment budget so much of it is going 92 93 depending on the year is going to maintain this Arc uh system that they can't use they're just using 8% so they're going very flat and not deep to modernize this system now I'll be the first one to tell you I would not give the fa a blank check because I'm not really quite sure they would use it properly with their broken acquisition management system you gave them Congress gave
▶ 2:32:39them $75 million to expedite expedite the new nms program and they still have not awarded that contract that was two years ago so I think I think we you need some type of structure there to restructure the situation and understand that they just can't you just can't give them money because under this current structure it won't work thank you so just a recap resources have been provided they've been allocated by Congress it's the faa's broken processes that have limited the ability to deploy
▶ 2:33:10those funds in a responsible way that would be supportive of accelerating modernization is that correct I would say that's correct I would also say not enough resources have been given to facilities and equipment to modernize the system quick enough thank you and uh and with that I yield the balance of my time to Chairman Nells thank you sir uh Mr Daniels and we're talking about the age and everything uh I'm reading your your written testimony I don't see anything in there that talks really about the hiring process so uh it is
▶ 2:33:40my understanding uh from start to finish it takes like 12.8 months over a year to hire somebody to get them in the pipeline to Oklahoma City is that right about a year over a year Congressman uh we don't aren't involved with the initial recruitment but that is a I'll just tell you what it is it's over a year long I'm thinking now why why would it take I know secretary Duffy said we want to try to you know condense the steps from eight steps to Five Steps but over a year uh to me would be
▶ 2:34:10unacceptable uh the gentleman I talked to yesterday in my office he said it's over a year he said you know what the problem is we're not sure of hiring candidates we've got thousand thousands of them but we're short of psychiatrists so what the hell you mean you're short of psychiatrists Well everybody's got to go through a psych an exam but there's hundreds if not thousands of them up against a brick wall because we don't have enough psychiatrist what is your union doing to address that are you bringing that issue to the to the chairman we've uh gone for decades saying that we need
▶ 2:34:41speed up it's affecting your Staffing some simple fixes simple fixes it only makes sense I yield back thank you the gentleman yields back and I recognize Miss Gillan for 5 minutes for questions thank you um Mr Daniels thank you for being here today I'm honored to represent New York's fourth congressional district which is the Southshore of Nassau County on Long Island um and it is also the home to Tron New York Tron n90 uh after multiple delays and strong opposition from the New York de
▶ 2:35:11Congressional Delegation the FAA nonetheless required 12 air traffic controllers to relocate from N9 on Long Island to Philadelphia uprooting these civil servants from their families from their friends and from their lives um do you have any insight on why this decision or decisions like this are being made and the impact that it could have on our airspace and on air traffic controler morale thank you congresswoman for the uh question it is a dangerous precedent to set to force air
▶ 2:35:41traffic controllers out of their home facilities to another one the two parties Nack and Fa have shown a strong commitment to collaboration and anything that we reach it agree agreement on we'll stand by we'll put our name behind and we'll do but just the forcing of air traffic controllers to solve temporary problems is not something we want to be in the business of thank you uh I'd like to address another major problem in my district which is the unauthorized use of drones uh we saw a lot of press coverage about drones flying over New Jersey over New York
▶ 2:36:11recently and my district is right next door to JFK Airport which is one of the busiest airspaces in the world and the risk of a drone uh incursion into our airs spray and across the path of a major airliner is is very very real uh what can we do to make sure our air traffic controllers have what they need to avert a disaster thank you congresswoman it's been stated many times today and agreed upon by those on this panel that it has to be a
▶ 2:36:41funding reform and a change to our strategy for the long-term mod uh enhancement of the equipment that we use if that equipment is to start dealing with unmanned area Vehicles drones and otherwise we put out advisories we know what we see in the sky right now and provide any information we can but the enhancement of Technologies the enhancement of rules to ensure and protect America's public and the safe the safety of the flying public we will absolutely stand behind we would partner or we would want to be a part of and collaborate on the uh that
▶ 2:37:12initiative so there's a lot of information in the testimony I I reviewed the written testimony of all the witnesses about the need to up update our equipment um and how our technology is lagging behind it seems like the price tag to do this is is quite High um you can elaborate further on on that and then the second part of that question is in terms of if you couldn't get everything at once what do you think is the most critical part of our infrastructure that needs to
▶ 2:37:42be improved Congressman I think sometimes just a simple example is the best way to handle it uh when it comes to needing the funding reform you don't go and buy a house and then not know how much money you're going to have next month to pay for that house you'll start making decisions or maybe the couch that's going to go in that house but I cannot by the entire house and that's quite often what's happening inside the FAA if there is one thing that we need to put our efforts behind I'll expand it to two because I believe that they're critical is the Telecommunications and then also our notm system both
▶ 2:38:12of those can the Nations uh flying public thank you um Mr Sparrow last year's FAA reauthorization act uh which was signed into law in May included millions of dollars in aviation Workforce grants to help build and grow the talent pipeline of Pilots technicians and manufacturers however a FAA remains woefully underst staffed for example as of December it was shorted about 800 technicians what else should Congress do to help recruit and
▶ 2:38:42maintain a skilled Aviation Workforce congresswoman thank you for the question when it when it comes to our Airway transportation system system specialist Workforce uh right right now about 36% of them are over the age of 55 years old uh so they're they're coming on to retirement very soon we have asked the fa to create a Workforce plan that addresses what they're going to do with this Workforce going forward in the future uh that is supposedly in the works
▶ 2:39:13uh I've seen some drafts of it but as far as I know they've not provided that to Congress as of yet will say that this Workforce if properly staffed and resourced can be a a a a participant in upgrading the national airspace system if we have if we have enough of them around the country at every airport we can participate in in in the installation and implementation of new systems thank you sir um m transportation Mr Daniel's
▶ 2:39:43Transportation secretary sha Duffy announced last week that he intends to supercharge air traffic controller hiring at the AA including by raising starting salaries and streamlining the hiring process what impact will this announcement have and what uh should the administration be doing to fill the workforce shortage we look forward to working with secretary Duffy on our current Workforce and recruiting those in we need to engage in talking about the pay and benefits associated with this job because of the stresses and pressures and what we're under
▶ 2:40:13we need to retain the air traffic controllers that we have today thank you I yield back General lady yields I ask you ask consent to enter into the record the white paper for more than 30 Aviation stakeholders outlining several priorities on air traffic control infrastructure and Staffing sent on February 9th 2025 without objection so ordered I recognize Mr bresnahan for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and thank you all for taking time to come out here and testify in front of the subcommittee um
▶ 2:40:43something that we've been hearing a lot more of is the conversations relating to 8 DB and I am a licensed helicopter pilot so obviously my heartfelt feelings towards the DCA tragedy and really where the the terminology something that we frequently reference in the world of Aviation but uh something that gives me the AA when I'm flying is not every aircraft is equipped with adsp and my my first
▶ 2:41:13question would be to Mr Buns about where do you see the technology moving with third party applications and um how can we in Congress try to ensure that every aircraft is equipped with ads in and out technology yes sir as you know when we initially uh made the Mandate out there it was what we consider in the veil so basically underneath really busy airports Class B Class C airspaces we classify once you get beyond that then it's not a requirement
▶ 2:41:44but if you think about where we're going as a nation we as an aviation Nation we're employing Advanced a Mobil but also drones out there one of the impediments to the Beyond visual lionist sight rule that that is stalled right now is because we don't have a way to deconflict especially with helicopters that are flying down low below 400 feet with those drones but our drones now are equipping with technology to be able to detect that adsb signal and NASA is actually taking on an effort to see if we can uh
▶ 2:42:14field very lowcost systems that we already put out in sail planes and if that signal is strong enough to be able to allow the Drone which you can't see with your eyes to be able to avoid us you know those drones it's a big deal we saw out in California that drone impact of that water bomber out there and it's it's only a matter of time where we're going to have a significant uh midair collision with a drone that can take down an aircraft especially if it hits in the windscreen so this is a I'm glad you brought it up because this a really important priority
▶ 2:42:44that we look at expanding that technology it you nailed it and I mean drone very frequently helicopters are flying 4 500 feet AGL and a drone gets into a a rotor system it's going to be a bad day for for everyone um which kind of catapults into my secondary question I did a lot of my training in g a space very rural areas but um you still have the deconflict element with military aircraft just this weekend when I was
▶ 2:43:14flying and preparing to return there was military aircraft performing training operation that was not broadcasting um I grew up and flew very close to uh Fort Indian Town Gap and often times unless that military aircraft is communicating on your local frequency and you may then try to reference some kind of you know a foreflight or a garment like application to try to get visual orientation as to where they may be is there any conversations and perhaps this could be for Mr
▶ 2:43:44Daniels as well um is there any conversations about forcing or Manda military aircraft to start broadcasting well as for national security purposes we obviously want our military aircraft to be able to turn it off when they need to because we don't want them to be tracked but you know in the case that we all saw here in DCA if there wasn't a national security imper uh imperative to have adsb off hopefully you know no
▶ 2:44:14military aircraft would turn that off and again it's such an a safety enhancer to be able to be out there see it electronically and then train your eyes to where you need to be able to look so I think not only that but also the in this day and age we should be able when the military flies to be able to transmit to all of Mr Daniel's uh Workforce advisories to let us know that there are military aircraft out there and be on the lookout Congressman I appreciate the question we've
▶ 2:44:45historically supported anything that brings more situational awareness to not only the air traffic control controller the the pilot as well any efforts to bring that capability to both of us uh in any capacity we absolutely would want to be a part of collaborate on and Implement at uh at the soonest possibility I I think when you're flying and helicopters traditionally flying a lot lower to the ground um and you know this specifically just happened to me just this last weekend it and you could see
▶ 2:45:15other aircraft even if it is displaying on adsb something that's 2 mil out or a mile out is literally a speck and when you don't see it and you hear that call when it's too late if that person just happens to broadcast on the frequency as they're transitioning through a specific airspace it certainly is always something that's in my scope of concern um so very excited to hear that there's some some movement here and please let us know if we can be helpful with that chairman I yield back gentleman yields I now recognize Miss Norton for five
▶ 2:45:46minutes thank you chairman Nels and ranking member Cohen for holding this important Hearing in addition to the tragic collision near DCA uh in my district earlier this year there have been several recent misses at and near airports around the country the tragic collision and the near misses are a stark reminder of the critical role of our air traffic control
▶ 2:46:16systems and the workers who operate and maintain them the national capital cap the national capital region has the most restricted airspace in the nation but the airspace near DCA is among the most congested uh Mr Calo I agree with your safety recommendations to require all aircraft near airports to use
▶ 2:46:47adsb transpant ERS uh in uh 2023 I wrote to the Department of Defense inquiring about its use of transponders in the national capital region dold said and here I'm quoting due to the sensitive nature of their missions uh supporting uh uh the movement of
▶ 2:47:17very important persons in and around DCR the Army Aviation Bri Brigade at Fort belar W aw and Marine helicopter Squadron one execute 100% of their missions with adsb off end quote following the collision at DCA I received reports from do d
▶ 2:47:48uh I I I received reports that DOD was asserting that adsb responders are enabled on DOD helicopter flights in the national capital region so I sent another letter asking dold to clarify its policy and practice uh on the use of AD SB responses I have yet to receive
▶ 2:48:18a response Mr Calo uh to protect Aviation safety should DOD require helicopter flights near DCA to use adsb congresswoman um you know we are on the record of supporting the um permanent suspension of helicopter traffic unless it's an emergency military or medical around DCA in terms of ad SB
▶ 2:48:49I don't think that our testimony addressed that um and I would leave that to one of our experts on the here thank you uh M Mr uh the Trump Administration has recently fired hundreds of employees at the FAA at a time when our Aviation safety work Workforce is understaffed what actions can take Congress take to protect and increase
▶ 2:49:19the aviation safety Workforce at the FAA Congressman thank you for the question well uh to begin with I think Congress has already taken those actions they've given the FAA the ability to make their own Staffing decisions under title 49 40122 they Exempted FAA from the provisions of Title 5 effectively to give them the ability to make Staffing decisions on their own what what happened over at FAA
▶ 2:49:50uh about two weeks ago was that they were told sarily get rid of some probationary employees to cut the the federal Workforce so uh despite what Congress has already done the FAA now was put in a position that they were required by the administration to to cut these these employees uh thank you Mr SPO and I yield back General lady yields I now recognize Mr shrie for five minutes thank you Mr chairman uh uh I appreciate
▶ 2:50:21the testimony of our Witnesses today and just want to take a a moment again to uh to acknowledge the uh the the loss of so many of our citizens uh uh going into DCA last month I represent Indiana 6 District that includes the uh indd airport we've got uh FedEx's second largest air uh Hub operation in the district uh and two air traffic control related questions that are
▶ 2:50:51Germaine to the district that I represent we are uh and nearing the end of a massive rebuild of the freight dedicated runway for Federal Express out at indd it's 5l um when you take one of the two main runways out of operation at a facility like that what how does our current air traffic control system hold up to the the stressors of taking that much capacity
▶ 2:51:21online for a couple of years I don't know if this question is best directed to maybe Mr Renaldi or Mr Daniels Congressman I appreciate the question it'll start out with there is modernization across you know multip a multitude of airports but anytime that you take a part of our pavement equipment uh or a Runway itself it strains capacity We Begin putting in either different restrictions if they're necessary we start uh lowering what we call the air rate where they may be able to land 64 aircraft in an
▶ 2:51:51hour we may now have to do 32 that those are the different ways that we begin handling it and then we put in traffic management initiatives across the country to ensure the safe and orderly flow of traffic to that sector sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't and then we recalibrate re-evaluate and work from there so that would be the way in which uh the system responds to a in this case yearslong uh challenge capacity at a facility like indd
▶ 2:52:23um Indianapolis the Metro hosts several sort of major events including the the the largest single day sporting event in in the country with the uh the May running of the um the indd 500 or the NCAA uh tournament play um how does the system respond to uh a very significant influx of general aviation traffic uh into a region uh such as Indianapolis like around the
▶ 2:52:53the the uh IND 500 each time thank you Congressman we quite often put in some level of a work group in advance of a major uh you know sporting event or any major event across this country we bring in all the stakeholders to that event ensure that there is either some way or a what we call slot program associated with it so that way again we can control the amount of airplanes Landing or arriving at one time and then we also put in any temporary flight restrictions
▶ 2:53:23in an area necessary uh to handle that in now it's when it's not known that's what makes it even more difficult because if there's a great Flyin of general aviation that was not pre-coordinated with us controllers take on that stress and that pressure day in and day out to try and ensure that every aircraft can get to the destination that they're looking for is there is there a uh a program that exists nationally to deal with those those very short term spikes that other host cities or regions
▶ 2:53:53uh would have the opportunity to to to contend with as Indianapolis does from time to time Congressman that's correct we quite often share the good practices between the different facilities from the Super Bowl to the final four uh to an Indianapolis 500 we use the same principles at multiple airports the constraints are the cities and the traffic around them it's going to be much different in DFW obviously than it is in New Orleans Louis yeah very helpful I appreciate that Mr chairman I I yield back gentleman
▶ 2:54:23yields I now recognize Miss Titus five minutes thank you Mr chairman um I'm like everyone here our sympathy goes out to those who were lost in that uh recent accident I represent a busy airport area just like Washington DC in southern Nevada and Las Vegas and the the skies are very crowded there as you know we've commercial airlines we've got Freight Airlines you've got general aviation
▶ 2:54:54we're bringing people to Super Bowls and the spear and all of that got the helicopters that tour up and down the strip go out to the Grand Canyon and uh add to that air Nellis Air Force Base you've got all of that and you've got drones now being used from everything from wedding pictures to delivering drinks by the pool I mean it's a crowded and that's why this has always been an issue for me having enough air traffic controllers
▶ 2:55:24so that it will be safe and that's why I was worked real hard in the FAA reauthorization Bill to address this from several different angles I wonder uh Mr Daniels will you talk a little bit about this we hear the difference between the financ driven Staffing model and then the collaborative resource working group Staffing model can you just lay out for us what's the difference where we are now now which way we need to go and what those recommendations are Congressman first want to start by saying a
▶ 2:55:54thank you for the question B we will truly appreciate the support you've always had for the air traffic controllers so I would happen to be on the team that was part of NAA uh the atfa and miter the three parties got together to relook at Staffing that was over a decade old modeling uh from fa finance and uh or it's decades old from fa Finance if from the numbers that had been agreed upon one time in approximately 9 years ago uh to date when the
▶ 2:56:25three parties sat down we found many places that it had not been kept up with the modernization policies or procedures or our training efforts that were in effect the fa Finance model looks and look at what we have today and then just says if you have today well then we can do it with that and it continues to decline the way that we looked at it as the the three parties was how was Staffing needed it in the prospective look of what a facility actually needs to run at full capacity
▶ 2:56:55not what they did in the past because there puts constraints on us but what do they need now and in the future the uh that resulted in us agreeing that it needs 14,632 air traffic controllers today 3,600 fully certified air traffic controllers that we made short today that we've talked about on this committee that take two to three years to train it's going going to be that long-term investment and uh in not only the uh training and hiring of them but also then the incentivizing
▶ 2:57:25of the ones that we have the day to stay well whatever plan you use is going to take money it's got to be sustained money and you got to know it's coming so you can continue this training and recruit these people to be air traffic controllers I sent a letter this morning to uh leadership asking that when we consider the budget that we look at full funding for the the needs would you just address that a little bit as what that funding is and how much we need it and what will be
▶ 2:57:55the consequences if you don't get it absolutely and thank you congresswoman the FAA facilities and Equipment budget has been talked about uh for a long time today they right now get $3.1 billion into that line of budget it needs a $6 billion investment for us to finally begin the modernization that's necessary to bring not only the much needed change for the air traffic control system but to get rid of the Legacy systems that remain out there because day in and day out
▶ 2:58:25an air traffic controller knows they're going to ask who's going to replace that light bulb and that light bulb doesn't exist anymore that is an impediment to our actual progress because these are tools and equipment that we need to do our job day in and day out just like if a roofer has a hammer we need the proper equipment to do our job as well and that investment will give us that opportunity to make sure that we are focused on the American public safety so it's not just people it's technology which changes so rapidly uh to stay up to date
▶ 2:58:55and keep people safe that's absolutely right congresswoman uh in my 26 year career every day is a training day I'm constantly learning new equipment con we're constantly working on what's next so that way we can provide the best service possible and that is also again the investment in the people and the investment in the hiring and Staffing well thank you thank you I you back Mr not you're recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chair uh Mr Daniels I'll continue the line of questioning you said that there were 6 billion
▶ 2:59:26dollars needed and uh that it was somewhat urgent if I heard you correctly is that correct Congressman it's uh not only urgent it's long overdue yes and and that that kind of feeds right into the line of questions that I want to focus on the amount of money is obviously important about how much we need to appropriate to meet the needs of the American public but ALS also how those dollars are spent going forward I think there's probably a very good case to make that we need to reform how we Implement tax dollars for
▶ 2:59:56critical services in your mind in your opinion what are are accountability metrics that we can put into place so that we do continue to spend our money wisely to make sure we're not paying for equipment that's outdate paying for light bulbs that don't exist uh to use the metaphor that you just mentioned Congressman I appreciate the opportunity to clarify uh the question the actual way that we think that reform needs to happen is that budgetary reform that you speak of is looking at the different metrics
▶ 3:00:26and measures the aviation trust fund being a part of it but mainly all sitting down to come to a solution that allows for that long-term funding to occur because the lack of planning that we can do today is honestly the main crippling component of it for any accountability put in place we why can't you plan say that again sir you said your inability to plan for the future why can't you plan is it because of the budget is it because of bureaucracy it's because from day to day month-to month continuing resolution to continuing resolution that funding
▶ 3:00:57either doesn't change it's already being spent on something else and it's not being put to modernizing as it's needed okay well looking back you said it's long overdue why um what are what are things that we can do in terms of uh air traffic control to assist air traffic control and making these needs known earlier more urgently um so we don't find ourselves in this predicament going forward congressman and thank you NAA has been advocating for at least 10 years on
▶ 3:01:27that the very change that you speak of number one it has to be in the realm of telecommunications that is a major impediment uh to the system and it's a safety risk not only that then it would be the NM system uh the NM system that provides information to Pilots across the country that would need to be invested in corrected and fixed because again it takes down the entire system when it's not up to date and then get into the controller uh needs that's going to be an information display system right now an iPad has 10 times the amount of information
▶ 3:01:57than a controller does at our fingertips when we're controlling airplanes it's Antiquated we're clicking on buttons and quite often not even being able to use it and then the last one's going to be the investment in our surveillance or our radar so we have surface awareness and we can be out looking out the windows or the planes instead of spending time looking for information is there a way in your opinion sir to decentralize the bureaucratic uh mechanism that currently seems to exist it seems like the air traffic controllers is very centralized from the training to the equipment requests to uh procurement
▶ 3:02:28requests whatever it may be is there a way to decentralize so that there is um more efficiencies within the system sir I don't know exactly what that answer would be but I know that being a part of it and ensuring that those monies are going towards the accurate uh or the actual issues will be key to all of it and Na's involvement is that so that a piece of equipment isn't rolled out and then we find out what it is and how it doesn't actually work for us that continues to be the broken model that exists today if somebody buys
▶ 3:02:58something we look at it and say we can't use that and then we start the process all over again so anything that's an effort to fix that we absolutely support and then my last question sir how is uh air traffic controlling doing with recruiting new members seeking careers in that field training them and then dispersing them to uh into that career Congressman we agree uh wholeheartedly with secretary Duffy that this is the time to recruit the best and brightest to invest in the people and that's going to come through working on not only the hiring
▶ 3:03:28and the training of those air traffic controllers and incentivizing them into the career field not just while at Oklahoma City Academy but the ones who are coming in and then going to live in either a high cost of living area and the the uh retaining the air traffic controllers that we have today that are leaving quite often because of the stresses and pressures of Six-Day work weeks do you see any value in in having morees besides just the Oklahoma City Academy or do you like the model of having it just in one place Congressman Nack is on record we support any uh ability to maximize the throughput of air
▶ 3:03:58traffic controllers through a system okay Mr chairman I yield back thank you sir gentleman yields Mr Kar you're recognized thank you Mr chairman first I too want to offer my condolences uh for those that were lost in the recent American Airlines uh tragedy um it was a sad day for our country and for the citizens that we lost Mr Buns currently we are nearing another uh Government funding deadline can you discuss how
▶ 3:04:28past government lapses impacted the faa's ability to provide continued certainty for safety and ongoing modernization of the system yes sir uh over time we've we've all participated in this and each time that we get ready to go into a potential shutdown all of a sudden the FAA starts to prepare for that so uh in my world certification starts to stop Communications uh it really breaks down because
▶ 3:04:59the fa starts to focus on that and then if we do go into a shutdown we've talked about all that happens within the system uh we require controllers and others to be still on watch doing their job but we don't pay them so that affects morale but then after shutdown's done then all of a sudden we have the Recon stitution time so it's not just the period of shutdown it it extends far beyond that and many of us have been up up on the hill many times talking to members on both sides of the aisle and it just seems
▶ 3:05:29like especially our controllers of the Pawn in the middle of a shutdown that that both sides want want to be able to use and say see the pain and and we just all look at this and go can we just stop this and exempt this agency that is all about safety from all of this per ations that happens during shutdowns thank you uh Mr Daniels in a similar vein I want to hear from you about the impact of a potential government shutdown on air traffic controllers I understand that
▶ 3:05:59air traffic controllers already work long hours and have tremendous responsibility in managing our nation's airspace how will a government shut down impact training and retention and what are the long-term implications for air traffic controllers if there is a prolonged shutdown Congressman thank you for the ability to address the question this is going to exacerbate the crisis there is no doubt about it a government shutdown cuts off and severs the artery to the actual fix
▶ 3:06:30which is the hiring of air traffic controllers and then placing them in for training the Oklahoma City Academy shuts down during a government shutdown controllers then that are currently controlling don't get paid and then all of our support and resources that help us on a daily basis everything from creating a chart to making sure we have the latest information they are sent home so it is just us King a headset talking to the aircraft and there's no modernization there is no train new trainees coming in and just a day shutdown
▶ 3:07:00puts us months behind a 35 day shutdown put us 500 trainees behind which which was 25% of the new controllers coming into or the new trainees coming into the system last year thank you uh Mr Daniels many Americans have been reminded of the critical importance of air traffic controllers in maintaining safety within our national airspace can you discuss the type of training that individuals go through to qualify for a job as an air traffic controller and two can you
▶ 3:07:30discuss how president Trump's based his claims about the faa's workforce impact Recruitment and safety thank you Congressman um the beginning of your question is there's every time a controller isn't in the news is a good day for us uh we continous ly are the people behind the curtain that no one knows about people get on a plane they put on headphones they re uh recline their chair and they just know that they're going to arrive safely that's what we pride ourselves in is that every American and every person who
▶ 3:08:00traverses the airspace they are in our capable hands and that comes along with the training that is needed which is two to three years to get that person ready to certify for the moment of either the routine day the extremely complex day because every day that one of the air traffic controllers goes to work is a new day a new system and something that they haven't seen before so they have to be at the top of their game now for the recruitment of air traffic controllers again we look forward to working with Congress and secretary Duffy on the recruitment of the best and
▶ 3:08:30brightest we have to sit down and talk about the pay and benefits associated with it if we're going to be bringing new in new persons into this uh this field and we look we stand by ready to engage any moment to do just that uh did Dei have any anything to do with the recent accident our air traffic controllers are highly skilled highly trained and go through two to three years it's regardless of racer gender who is the able to make it through this career field there are multiple job uh job Jeopardy
▶ 3:09:01points or training evaluation Milestones through the academy through simulation training and then through talking to the aircraft themselves that they can be removed from if they don't meet the standards thank you very much Mr chair am of time I yield back gentleman yields I now recognize Mr van Drew thank thank you chairman so on a lighter note because you always have to have a lighter note right everybody's got a small once in a while the chairman mentioned that some of the recruiting difficulties we've had when you met with some folks was because of the psychiatric testing and a short edge of
▶ 3:09:31psychiatrists I just got to tell you I think it's real good that to be a member of Congress you don't have to go through that psychiatric testing all right what do you think chairman right we've been here a few years um I just wanted to acknowledge that the FAA really has been doing a good job and it's an incredible job addressing the recent events the trag tragic events that we've all gone through and it's an invaluable asset to this nation I've said it before I'll say it again I'm always happy to support them
▶ 3:10:02and as you know I have the FAA tech center in my district in the state of New Jersey uh good people do a good job I'm proud of them I'm proud of what they represent proud of the work that they do and you knew and you've touched on this already so I'm not going to go into detail we have a thousand 20 Feer fewer certified professional controllers than in 2012 9% decrease in the number and yet we have an increase in the responsibilities the work and the volume that in that's there
▶ 3:10:32it's a lengthly training process we talked about that the bottom line is we got to do better and I think secretary Duffy really knows that I think it's abundantly clear and I'm hoping in a bipartisan way on both sides of the aisle that when it comes to this regard of some nuances and differences in opinion on some things that we've got to do better and I brought this up to Mr Spiro last time you were here I don't know if you remember but Atlantic City International Airport uh and of course I did a tour I've toured the FAA numerous
▶ 3:11:03times the 177th Fighter Wing is right next door and of course the air traffic controllers I went up in the tower interesting they were still using floppy discs I think I know that they're changing that this year is my understanding hopefully they've changed it already but just so people understand that aren't involved in this industry this business war in Cong in Congress they were using this to update their id4 systems as a technology from 1994 not 2004
▶ 3:11:33not 2012 1994 and again if it wasn't sad it would be humorous they had a difficult time obtaining these discs so they would go to places like Sam's warehouse and other such retail stores to actually get you know what they needed that's not how we become the best the brightest the sharpest the fastest that's not how America is number one so thank goodness they're GNA they're changing that Mr spirro can you give us any update on what's going on there at AC quickly thank you congressman
▶ 3:12:03and yes I do remember our interaction last time on this topic uh so the eids system uh is is currently in process uh we've got some folks working with them on it I do want to tell you that there's a question know whether or not right now the fa is going to terminate our participation in this program and and some others uh so we bring a lot of technical expertise that's necessary for a a smooth and Swift implementation on this system so uh there's about 400
▶ 3:12:33of them to roll out uh and the FAA is saying it's going to take them until about 2030 to make that happen uh we don't think that I mean honestly and I said before and I and I said to you last time I was here if our work work force was properly staffed and properly resourced we would we would be able to participate in the implementation of this system but we're not we don't have enough of us out there to do this but honestly it's from the technical perspective of an installation it it is not one of
▶ 3:13:03the more complicated things to to accomplish it can hope secretary Duffy will help with this because we really got to get moving I agree with you it's important I'm going to ask a question any one of you are free to answer it's going to be a little different anybody has the guts to answer it so so last year we all remember drones I'm not talking about we're behind in the technology and all the technical issues a lot of people saw them a lot of people saw them there were sightings the Coast Guard saw them the nuclear plant in my district professionals saw them Chiefs of police were in my
▶ 3:13:34office the other day and they asked if I could find out more about it uh you know originally they said that we didn't they didn't know what it was the Pentagon didn't know what it was Department of Defense they knew it was something nothing the fear they didn't know where they were going what they had but nothing to worry about then we were told that it was just backyard drones we found out that wasn't accurate either and now recently we've been told it was the FAA which I I don't understand because if it was the FAA wouldn't we have communicated we spent a lot of money
▶ 3:14:04getting the Department of Defense out there getting Advanced radar systems out there um that could detect when if they were doing uh frequency skipping spent money with the you know different agencies police offic officers the Municipal Police Chiefs of police none of them knew what was going on can anybody tell me if it was the FAA why wasn't there some level communication Mr Daniels you look like a brave man Congressman I'll jump in uh if it was the fa
▶ 3:14:34we have standards uh and rules associated with who can be operate in and around at airspace for any type of drones that means we weren't aware of it we remained committed to working with the agency and ensuring that that situational awareness occurs in and around all of our airports yeah well you that's good and all but and I'm going to yield in a second something's up I I don't know it was either a gross malfunction dysfunction in communication horrible or there's something more to it one or the other and I still don't nobody
▶ 3:15:04can give me a good answer I yield back chairman gentleman yields and I recognize Mr Stan five minutes thank you very much Mr chairman and for the witnesses for being here today for this critically important hearing I also want to extend my thank you to Laurel Grant and Amy Hunter for being here and to represent All Families of the victims that of that horrific crash that occurred just last month and just a short distance away from where we sitting right now uh our skies are busier than ever safety has to be our number
▶ 3:15:34one priority this committee has sounded the alarm about Aviation Workforce shortages particularly air traffic controllers for years the issue has never been partisan as my colleagues have said we worked across the aisle to craft and pass the bipartisan Federal Aviation Administration reauthorization Act of 2024 and it passed the house overwhelmingly this bill lays out a clear road map to improve our air traffic control system including hiring more air traffic
▶ 3:16:04controllers to address critical understaffing issues and updating aging Air Traffic Control technology and systems many of which are decades old paper strips and floppy discs says Mr Alo has recently testified after the devastating crash at Reagan Airport in a series of incidents across the country including two fatal accidents recently at Arizona airports my colleagues and I did send a letter to secretary Duffy two weeks ago calling him to immediately Implement these bipartisan improvements
▶ 3:16:35in the FAA reauthorization instead of focusing on those safety improvements secretary Duffy has sidestepped this committee's bipartisan informed FAA Bill and in invited Elon Musk and Doge to poke around the FAA and the complex Air Traffic Control Systems we cannot allow silicon valleys move fast and break things ethos to impact our commitment to Safety in the United States Aviation sector case in point secretary
▶ 3:17:05Duffy allowed Doge to hand out pink slips to hundreds of critical Air Traffic Control staff that action alone should be setting off alarm bells for every member of this committee concerned about maintaining the gold standard and Aviation safety Mr Sparrow as my colleagues and I have mentioned here today the recent firings of FAA targeted the recent fires at the fa targeted some safety Specialists including members of professional Aviation safety Specialists or past can you briefly speak to the importance
▶ 3:17:36of these individuals who are fired and the impact that that has on safety Congressman thank you for the question thank you for recognizing our uh the folks that we represent I'll I've brought up a few of them here today but I'll talk about another uh another handful of people telecommunication Specialists some of them were fired because they probationary employees they have a very specific field of expertise when it when it comes to uh and and Mr Daniels was talking about that telecommunications issues uh
▶ 3:18:06they have a very specific field of expertise when it comes to Internet Protocol and of course the agencies going through a a transition right now trying to get off of something called time domain multiplexing and going to Internet Protocol and then that that's causing them a problem and a lot of money in the midst of that we we fire some of those folks uh and and when we talk about the management and program assistance it seems like that's a very bureaucratic job it's not it it supports our technici Workforce our av our Airway transportation system specialist
▶ 3:18:36so they can accomplish the work that they that they do every day Logistics making sure that contractors are there on time a variety of of of other tasks that they don't have to spend time away from doing I really appreciate the answer Mr SP Mr Daniels excuse me some of the industry are calling for limits to article 114 activities which obviously promotes Labor Management discussion conversation on improving uh our National Aviation systems including safety uh what would be the consequences
▶ 3:19:06of changes in relation to Aviation safety Congressman I appreciate the question there's no better example than between 2006 and 2009 when the FAA and did not have an agreement in place there were zero Technologies uh implemented or actually deployed to the field for three consecutive years when NAA smmes weren't subject matter experts weren't involved it cannot be a system where you don't involve the very people who work with the equipment day in and day
▶ 3:19:36out leadership 101 is you go and work with those closest to the issue we are the ones closest to the issue we will continue to seek solutions that are a cost savings to the tax tax payers and that is our commitment we really appreciate that and bringing labor and management to the table has real benefits including on Aviation safety finally we can be creative in finding solutions to Staffing problems the FAA contract Tower program is one of the faa's most successful government industry Partnerships the fa reauthorization act included my provision directing fa
▶ 3:20:06to establish a pilot program to convert High activity Air Traffic Control Towers operating under the contract Tower program to FAA staffed visual flight Rule uh towers and I just wanted to make note that that is a program that we need to implement and move forward with uh it's important in my district but including Phoenix Mesa Gateway Airport and with that I yield back gentleman yields Mr M you're recognized thank you chairman I like everybody else I'm going to pick on Mr Daniels for a little while here good to see you all um are you an air
▶ 3:20:36traffic controller yourself Congressman yes sir I am for 26 years went to school when I am currently assigned Fort Worth Center uh air traffic control center you went to school when I went to school as a high school graduate in Fort wor Texas as an air traffic controller no I would went through high school and then went to the United States Marine Corps at the age of 19 where I learned my skills as an air traffic controller and how well did they transfer over from military service into civilian air traffic controlling the basics of Air Traffic Control in
▶ 3:21:06general are learned and understood but every facility is unique and it takes years to transition into that facility so when I moved from the Marine Corps into Addison Tower it took months uh it took almost a year to F get fully up to speed and then when I went from Addison Tower to Fort wor Center it took approximately two years for me to train there what was your MOS title 7252 7253 Tower and radar air traffic controller very good and so you're to to just be clear then and today whatever branch
▶ 3:21:37of the military you are whether you're that in the Marine Corps whether you're a jtac in the Air Force or whatever it transitions but it doesn't transition just like that with the the click of a finger Congressman that's correct you have to go through the trainings and standards for the the entire system and then for the facility specific okay now walk me through I'm trying to understand just the training pipeline for air traffic controllers right when you started the actual schooling portion of becoming an air traffic controller uh is it pretty similar today to what it was when you went through
▶ 3:22:07when I went through the Marine Corps it was its own specific uh civilian when you went through as a civilian once I became a civilian yes I was not I did not have to go through the fa Academy that 95% of the trainees have to go through because of my previous experience in the Marine how much of the schooling were you able to knock out by your military experience I was able to completely bypass it in going to a tower if you I was to go to an in rout facility I would have had to go directly to that facility and learn there so you did go right to a tower you didn't have
▶ 3:22:38to that is correct sir and so you were able to bypass all of it I was able to bypass the initial training uh that since I had already gained experience and then I was subject to the training at the facility itself so for the military how long does it take them to train somebody in what you did in the military that you were able to transition to do as a civilian without having to go through the civilian training what's the Delta between the timelines of training congressman
▶ 3:23:08is almost exactly zero it's approximately three months in the Marine Corps and then three months uh with the FAA at Apples to Apples correct sir very good for anybody going through the civilian side of it you're saying it's almost the exact same timeline walk me through what that looks like what are the different uh sections that they're going through what are they covering what's the most difficult part about it um where do most of the people find attrition and and start to fail out of it where's the you know the the really big part where you start to wash people and say these are the right
▶ 3:23:38individuals and these are the ones that are not going to make it and successfully uh traffic our skies and and keep people safe Congress for the first initial weed uh weed out of just applicants in general are going to come through the medical stand the rigorous medical standards and then also the IQ standards that are set you have to uh do a background check and also a security check what are the IQ standards the IQ standards are a uh one test given to everybody and then you get ranked into uh tiers of your qualification
▶ 3:24:08level from there it's not literally an IQ test it's more of a a standard of a number of different things like an ASAP in the military that that would be an equivalent yes sir okay and uh and then once you get to uh the Oklahoma City Academy people begin to learn what the world of air traffic control is it is a 4D continuous moving picture a lot of people can operate in understanding bookwork but then the practical application of being able to turn descend change and handle multiple things at at one time the uh The
▶ 3:24:39Continuous need to evaluate a scenario and then execute a plan is quite often the part where you begin losing the most uh most people in air traffic control is there an AI component to air traffic controlling and say that one more time sir is there an AI component to air traffic controlling currently there's no technologies that we interface with that have the AI component we would be uh you know open to any new technologies as long as they assist the air traffic controller and don't do the job for us do you foresee that or can you foreshadow uh something where there is a value ad
▶ 3:25:09because uh there's a technology developed as it relates to AI Congressman any new technologies are going to assist an air traffic controller we'd be as long as we're a partner in working with the fa to uh evaluate it and then implement it we'd be open to as long as it assists us but you don't have a specific hey there's really a hole right here that could be filled in part by technology where it would help augment the air traffic controller or help uh value add to the the air traffic control you don't see that right off the bat that you could share Congressman the number one system right now is our information display system that is
▶ 3:25:39Antiquated and does not give us real-time information for the airports or any of the traffic that we're serviced def find not real time it is a computer that is updated approximately every 56 days usually by floppy dis okay what everybody's been speaking about on floppy dis okay very good my time has expired but I appreciate the answer to my questions and I appreciate you all being here today thank you Congressman pet gentleman yields and I'll recognize Mr Garcia of Illinois thank you uh Mr chairman uh ranking member and of course the uh Witnesses for being here today
▶ 3:26:09uh last week at Midway Airport located in a densely populated neighborhood in Chicago a Southwest Airlines flight had to perform a goar around to avoid a jet that had crossed the runway I'm sure that most of you have seen the disturbing video the FAA and ntsp of course are investigating and early reports indicate that the jet crossed the runway without authorization to do so I'm grateful for the Southwest airline pilots
▶ 3:26:40and their actions to avoid a potential disaster it's another harrowing reminder of the importance of upholding strong safety standards in our Aviation system this includes updating absolete equipment the surf the surface surveillance radar used at Midway airport is composed of parts that are no longer being made forcing the airport to look for replacement parts from other airports
▶ 3:27:10uh Mr Daniels in your testimony you highlighted your Union's work with the FAA to FASTT track the surface awareness pardon me awareness initiative uh this initiative would reduce the number of runaway incursions at airports uh can you talk about why collaboration between your uh organization and the FAA in this initiative is so important and why funding upgrades to infrastructure is critical for safety Congressman thank you for the question it is a
▶ 3:27:40great example of success when two parties get together and actually go out in procure a piece of equipment that we agree is needed and necessary and fits the bill instead of it being purchased in advance and then given to us and say can you make this thing work that is what usually sets us behind day in and day out but our involvement was making sure that it was going to not only suit the controller's needs but it could be also uh rapidly deployed given the proper long-term funding
▶ 3:28:11at the other facilities that is needed as well that don't have any level of a surface thank you uh for that next uh I'd like to discuss uh troubling reports that the FAA is looking to cancel a contract with Verizon to design build and operate a few of my colleagues have addressed this uh the faa's new communications platform and to replace it with Elon musk's starlink if that's not corruption I don't know
▶ 3:28:41what is cancelling this Federal contract will bring costly litigation and show the work already being and it will slow the work already being done where is the efficiency in that Elon mus is meddling with the federal Workforce has also caused fear among air traffic controllers Roy Guerrero an air traffic controller at Midway for example is concerned about the threats to his livelihood he
▶ 3:29:11received an Infamous musk email asking what he accomplished last week what's he supposed to reply why is an air traffic controller entrusted with the lives of the flying public in one shift being asked this question we need to be hiring as many air traffic controllers as we can to meet the increasing demand for air travel we need to be acting with the urgency to improve our aging
▶ 3:29:41infrastructure not breaking contracts Mr Daniels how damaging would a delay to the faa's Enterprise Network Services Program be to Aviation safety Congressman thank you for the question every time that we have uh delays associated with a lack of equipment it reduces the capacity uh at the airport everything from telecommunications to uh the normal equipment that we access and use we'll either have to figure out a way to work
▶ 3:30:12around it can we mitigate that risk because that's ultimately what safety is about can can we mitigate the risks that are in front of us and if we can't mitigate that risk we have to begin reducing the capacity of the actual airspace to protect uh and preserve the safety of the American flying public and could I add to that thus the urgency of moving ahead with the legislation that we've passed here on a bipartisan uh basis uh to ensure that the flying public uh can continue
▶ 3:30:42to have confidence in our system Congressman I know that I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with everyone that's on this panel of applauding this committee's work on the fa reauthorization of 2024 and we cannot derail that progress Now by focusing on anything else than the crisis at hand thank you Mr Daniels all of the witnesses and with that I yield back Mr chair chlan yields Mr d s your recogniz thank you Mr chairman I really want to thank all the panel members having sat here and listen to your testimony the sense of urgency
▶ 3:31:12that you all expressed um was both frustrating because I share your urgency I'm very happy with um the work we did and all the comments you did but frustrated in how we get to this position in this wonderful industry with everyone has recognized how American leadership on Aviation safety um and the ability for Americans to travel really quite remarkable but that we let this Crown Jewel in many ways get to this point and now um
▶ 3:31:43my bill the safe Landings act which was a result of the near Miss at SFO 11 years ago Air Canada flight came within 59 ft of landing on three loaded uh airplanes and if it wasn't for the alertness of a United co-pilot seeing he had lined up incorrectly we wouldn't have gotten all those things so the good news is we're all engaged we need to ramp up what we reauthorized and then I start filling the blanks Mr Calo I was really struck by your comments and
▶ 3:32:13I'm struck by it in contrast to a lot of the political date debate right now about this partnership clearly the aviation industry needs the public sector this is public private Partnerships but this is a model um for your shareholders for your I mean I've always argued it's a low return on investment business but we still need to have investors and we've got to respect them but I was particularly taken by um your comments
▶ 3:32:43and I want to ask you the import importance of um looking at this critically I was just saying to staff I'm sure the in insurance industry has sophisticated actuary reports on risk assessments when you get to this level of Staffing um so one question is are you aware of anything like that um and how we could really model the decrease from a sophisticated and anal analytical perspective instead of relying on near misses um which are
▶ 3:33:14important but just if you get to this l of Staffing where I live at SFO this is the danger you have into the whole system do we have anything like that at a macro level where we could express to the administration that it's not about blindly cutting staff to increase efficiency I refer to as the department of dope having been a business owner for many years and believe in efficiency there's lots of efficiencies we could work on a nonpartisan bipartisan way could you tell me just the industry and the partnership
▶ 3:33:44and the respect you expressed for the rank and file public employees we don't have safety if we don't have competent Rank and file public employees at the FAA could you just add to that comment and if there are such analytics in your industry that you're aware of that would better help us guide the urgency of your testimony and getting the reauthorization amped up but also further funding thank you Congressman um there are analytics that we can get to you and provide to you we look at them all
▶ 3:34:14the time obviously our members look at them within their own companies uh to find the efficiencies make sure they have the employers that they have um overall I would say uh there have been failings in terms of efficiencies in terms of how money has been spent how technology has been employed or not employed and that's what I would urge this committee frankly to keep its focus on we all have our parochial interest we have a bigger issue here we have to Galvanize today to do what
▶ 3:34:44we can and I would urge you to look and we'd be happy to come in and talk about them we have provided um short-term medium-term and long-term recommendations we have the opportunity to do things right now in terms of an emergency funding bill we could make a Leap Forward on where we are now and that I think is incumbent upon all of us to do that and again keep our Focus keep our Focus that would be great just a risk assessment when we get to the Staffing level is a higher risk
▶ 3:35:15so look at near misses are important but there's got to be more sophisticated analytics than that Mr Daniels um I've mentioned this before having been at the tower at SFO and listen to high cost areas and the challenges in recruiting which is where most the volume is in places like New York and DC and San Francisco and La could you speak to that a little bit your members have told me over and over again in California here is you can't get young people go into the field for a variety of reasons but not least of which
▶ 3:35:45High housing cost so the differential isn't significant enough and Congressman thank you for the chance to address uh the question we are not immune to the E economy we are not immune to uh having to move across and away from our families when we take and go to serve the American public in this job we have members from coast to coast in many different areas we will forever be bound by an airport and those airports have high costs of living and we must keep up with it and we must sit down and work with this Administration on the pay and benefits
▶ 3:36:15associated with it and I just Mr chairman this is an example of blue areas and red areas everybody travels and they all have to go through these areas that um are may be Democratic areas just because of the volume but your constituents our constituents all over the country are going through them so if we approach it from a safety uh perspective that serves everyone thank you Mr chairman uh thank you the gentleman yeld for the panel we have votes at 1:30 I think we have two members yet so we should be through here very shortly Miss David you're
▶ 3:36:49uh thank you chairman Neils and um and also thank you to uh ranking member Cohen for holding this hearing today thank you of course to our Witnesses for taking the time to be here you know M millions of passengers are able to board fly and disembark flights in the United States every year thanks to the scores of hardworking Personnel across our country and the most advanced technology in the world unfortunately and heartbreakingly uh sometimes terrible
▶ 3:37:19accidents do occur like the midair Collision of flight 5342 which originated in Kansas and the military aircraft Pat 25 uh I do want to acknowledge um and share my heartfelt condolences to the uh families some of who I know showed up here today and to all the communities that are grieving right now uh overall the United States does still enjoy exceedingly safe airspace and does so without a second
▶ 3:37:49thought uh safety isn't free though from fully implementing NextGen and upgrading our air traffic control systems to training and retaining folks like Aviation safety Specialists and air traffic controllers we have to continue to invest the time and resources to ensure that we're protecting the flying public flying public I do want to note that in the entire time that I've been doing this job I have seen the professionalism and the commitment to safety of our
▶ 3:38:19Aviation safety Specialists and our air traffic controllers and I want to continue the conversation about that human capital investment that was started earlier by my colleague rep titis I'd like to start with a question for Mr speo and Mr Daniels uh can you talk through how long is the training process for becoming a fully certified professional controller or certified Airway transort transportation system specialist thank you congresswoman for the question it takes approximately
▶ 3:38:49two to three years on average to become a fully certified air traffic controller congresswoman thank you for the question uh so to be an airway transportation system specialist it depends on the field of expertise that you go into if it's Communications or radar automation navigational AIDS but it can take a typically up to three years to get certified on that sort of equipment I want to add that that equipment is different around the country so you don't have one instrument Landing system you don't have one
▶ 3:39:19radar you don't have one type of communication all those things are different around the country so the academy has to maintain different sorts of of equipment for folks to get trained and that does that does cause the pipeline to get smaller because you're you're instead of using three classrooms to train on one thing using three classrooms to train on three different things and uh thank you Mr spirro because I that actually leads into my second question which is I do think it would be helpful for folks to
▶ 3:39:49understand why it why why it takes so long uh I mean I'm glad that it I'm glad that you guys go through the rigorous training but if you could talk a little to why it takes uh the amount of time it does for uh certified professional controller system specialist uh maybe if you could walk through the respective processes for air traffic controllers the primary function is once they're hired they'll go to an academy if they meet the initial qualifications of security medical and background checks once they go
▶ 3:40:20they have training evaluation Milestones that they have to hit at the Academy if you don't reach a certain level of competence your ability to execute uh the tasks at hand you removed from Air Traffic Control once you complete that model at the three years of a at the uh at Oklahoma you then move to a facility then you go through bookwork if you don't meet the standards you're removed from Air Traffic Control then you have to do simulation training once again if you don't meet the standards
▶ 3:40:50you're removed from Air Traffic Control and then finally you move into actually talking to the aircraft and all of this is built in order to have the level of Competency have the level of understanding so that way when it's not just the routine day or it's the complex the complex day it's when that moment hits that you have no idea about that puts you uh to rely on those fundamentals is why we have such a rigorous training process thank you and when it comes to the airway transportation system specialist
▶ 3:41:20typically they bring some of that skill set to they to the table already most of them learned uh navigation in in the military uh and then they have to go through principal schools with radar automation navigational AIDS and it it takes a significant amount of time to get that and then have to get certified on the equipment before they're able to go to work as as journeyman yeah thank you and uh Mr buns I will probably follow up because I did want to uh kind of bring
▶ 3:41:51bring forward some of the delays that we've seen with the FAA as they've rolled out some of the nextg elements uh and the timeliness of those um I know that there's uh some initial they're in the final phases also of some initial uh Datacom deployment uh so we'll follow up with questions and thank you so much for being here again Mr chairman I yeld back Mr Garcia your recognition thank you and I think um I know we're wrapping up our hearing so thank you all
▶ 3:42:21for our guests and Witnesses for being here Mr chairman thank you um Mr Callo thank you for your Decades of service to the aviation industry congratulations on your retirement I'm a newer member to the committee I just um just joined but I am very interested in aviation obviously in transportation we have a a airport in the city of Long Beach which is also a a City airport when that we operated when I was mayor just before coming to Congress I know that there's a lot of concern about obviously air safety um obviously
▶ 3:42:51the the major accident that we had is a big part of that but I want to remind folks back home that um flying Aviation travel is still the safest way to travel uh you're all doing incredible work and I know a lot of people have a lot of fears but it's important to reiterate that as have many of my colleagues um today um but what I am very concerned about of course are the sudden Decisions by uh president Trump and certainly Elon Musk to fire more than 400 FAA technicians that that we employ
▶ 3:43:21through the FAA and the confusion and the chaos that that has caused our constituents are scared there are of course accidents that like like that happened of course that we need to investigate but the concerns about the human capital are very concerning and I couldn't agree more with my colleagues that have shared their concerns about needing more air traffic controllers of course and not less and of course we know that those every person that works at the FAA their Central mission is safety whether they're
▶ 3:43:52an air traffic controller uh or not and the decision to have those firings happen particularly following the days of the crash are very concerning now I personally believe that the president and Elon Musk have undermined safety uh by doing so these have been in my all FAA employees are critical personnel as far as I'm concerned and we do understand that layoffs have impacted the faa's aviation Safety Division the certification office flight standards office the office of airports and the air traffic organization
▶ 3:44:22now Mr Sparrow I know your organization represents FAA employees that have been recently fired by the new Administration could you give us very briefly just one or two examples of what responsibilities these workers actually had certainly thank you for the question uh Congressman so Aviation Safety assistance keep the SKU safe by supporting Aviation safety programs they handle critical documentation aeronautical information Specialists collect evaluate prepare critical
▶ 3:44:52navigation data maps and procedures and then we have maintenance mechanics they keep facilities running by repairing maintaining buildings utilities infrastructure everything from carpentry to to air conditioning thank you and that's I mean to me all of those are are critical positions we should not be letting go those positions especially after having concerns about what's happening right now um and trying to make our our airspace safer and so thank you Mr Daniels and you've worked as an air traffic controller I I have to imagine your ability to do your job ensures and depends on other FAA
▶ 3:45:22employees is that a fair assumption to make thank you congressman and yes it is we it is an ultimate team sport that we do every day so again uh we we shouldn't be letting go any of these FAA employees especially right now and it's a shame that Elon Musk has been given the ability to do so I just want to also just add we've heard reports of another uh priority for Elon Musk of course which is potentially to abandon a 15year $2.4 billion FAA contract with Verizon which in my opinion is completely shameful and in
▶ 3:45:52my opinion also speaks to the level of corruption that is possible uh in this process we know that he wants that of course the contract to go to his own company that he personally owns Which is SpaceX now I agree with ranking member Larson and thinking this absolutely should concern this committee and should concern the entire Congress I'm also worried about its impact of course to workers now Mr Daniels given your experience how much time and money could be wasted if the FAA started back at square one
▶ 3:46:23in the process with a new company Congressman thank you for the question regardless of who awarded a contract it's vital to us that NAA remains uh involved in being a fully collaborative partner in not only the testing but also the implementing of any new technologies we are the ones that are going to make sure that it has cost savings and we cannot impede the progress of it at all and as I understand the contract with Verizon was to upgrade a huge amount of critical Communications infrastructure is that correct can you say
▶ 3:46:53the question one more time sir that the process that the the Contra with Verizon is to upgrade a huge amount of critical infrastructure it's meant to as they call it TDM to IP is to move our telecommunications over and as I close I also just want to make a note that um a critical infrastructure especially when it revolves airspace and safe airspace uh is not some sort of um uh you know Tech experiment it's not some sort of startup it is not something that we can just break and hope it fixes it gets fix in the future
▶ 3:47:23is a complex important project and process and I hope that we that we don't move forward with giving Alon musk the own contract for that for that work and so thank you and I yield back gentleman yield any uh further questions from any members of the subcommittee uh Mr chairman the gentleman's recognized good to see you sir thank you Mr chairman we miss you on the rare subcommittee uh Mr Daniels uh or sorry Mr kuss on on this starlink
▶ 3:47:53uh contract that my colleague was referring to how does this starlink contract compare to the normal FAA procurement process Congressman thank you for the question nacka doesn't involve ourselves it's a purely an FAA do question of how they uh assign and do those contracts it's took get anyone answer that question is this sort of normal process is this what we expect or is it out of the norm Carson I I just add
▶ 3:48:24that you know if we've got a contract that's been in place for 15 years uh the pace of modernization is that's completely out of cycle with it so you know we've got to replace the copper switches and probably the fiber optic but we may be at a point in time where we need to look at satcom as a more efficient way um to be able to to deal with this we're equipping a lot of our aircraft with satellite Communications now the big dishes that you see on on top whether it's kogo starlink
▶ 3:48:54others and everything so you know again if it's competed fairly we've got to be able to adapt to changes in technology and right now the procurement system that the fa has is just not Nimble enough to keep Pace with technology so again if it's competed fairly and it helps us with better capability and it's at a lower cost I think we need to look at it yeah I would agree with that do you have any evidence that is being competed fairly I couldn't hear you sir do you have any evidence that is this is being competed fairly
▶ 3:49:24as you asked you said I'm not privy to the process uh for the competition there you're not aware of any evidence to that fact um air traffic controllers are currently receiving mixed messaging they're receiving OPM uh buyout offers five bullet point emails but then they were told that those provisions and rules don't apply Mr Daniels how does this confusion and uh impact morale for an already overwhelmed Workforce Congressman thank you for the question that's
▶ 3:49:54what I was going to start with we're six day work weeks 60 hours a week uh with the some of the lowest Staffing and again a Resurgence of air traffic postco uh to a liking that most people don't or didn't expect anything that disrupts puts strain pressure stress on an air traffic controller other than their normal lives that they go through every day is an unnecessary risk to this system uh and should not be part of Aviation at all I mean I spoke with an air traffic controller last week whose Baseline
▶ 3:50:24whose normal life was six day weeks is that pretty typical Congressman that's correct and most people are mandated over 41% of our facilities you are mandated and you only have four days off a month so if that's your Baseline four days off an entire month then I I got of imagined that any additional stress is it's just not safe for our incredibly congested air system Congressman uh like to clarify that absolutely any
▶ 3:50:54additional risk to the system builds up and that's what the output is is safety safety is a varying degree of risk anything that helps us mitigate that risk and take away those stresses and pressures uh on air traffic controllers as we handle and move through this crisis those hard working men and women are shouldering every day and should be absolutely uh evaluated separately from any efforts that again add to it if the systems that the air traffic controllers use Mr Daniels go down
▶ 3:51:25Radars and other systems does that add stress to the system Congressman I uh I appreciate the question again to understand the complexity of air traffic control sometimes it's easier just to use a basic analogy if you were to be driving down the road at 70 M an hour and I was sitting behind you and then I covered your eyes when you weren't ready and said keep driving that's what it's like for an air traffic controller to either lose Communications or lose radar in a moment's notice and that's the type of scramble we go into to make sure the flying public safe well the problem is that
▶ 3:51:55secretary Duffy claims that no air traffic controllers were fired by Mr musk yet there are reports that there have been layoffs of FAA workers who fix these things who fix Radars uh and other Air Traffic Control Systems this problem op also happens in a government shutdown when air traffic controllers are considered essential but maintenance personnel or not so when the system has a mechanical malfunction it can't be repaired so we have this situation you've described where the system is so outdated and so old that maybe even the current procurement
▶ 3:52:25contract isn't going to modernize it enough at the same time as you have air traffic controllers working a baseline of six days a week with four days off an entire month and now you're saying that either Elon or the Republicans who shut down the government are going to put out of work the maintenance Personnel I mean this just doesn't sound safe Mr chairman aach gentleman yields any further questions from members of subcommittee seeing none this concludes our hearing I I want to thank each one of you
▶ 3:52:55for been here and the committee SS the journ e