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▶ 0:18:34subcommittee on economic development public buildings and Emergency Management will come to order I ask unanimously consent that the chairman be authorized to declare recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so order I also ask unanimous consent that members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so ordered as a reminder if members wish to insert a document
▶ 0:19:04into the record please also email it to I now recom recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes I want to thank our Witnesses for being here today to discuss how we can make Federal real estate work for the American taxpayer at the beginning of last Congress this subcommittee hosted a Roundtable with industry stakeholders to help members better understand current
▶ 0:19:35market TW Trends in office space and how to right siiz the federal real estate portfolio building on that Roundtable this subcomittee held a hearing that highlighted a report published by the government accountability office on the use of space for federal agencies in their headquarters buildings the information that GAO uncovered in this report was shocking while many federal workers workspace was UN underused I don't think any of us expected
▶ 0:20:05to see just how devastating the usage numbers are GAO found that a majority of the agencies reviewed used 25% or less of their headquarters building space in the case of some agencies the utilization rate was closer 9% let that number sink in %.
▶ 0:20:26even under the Trump Administration returned to the office directors we know there will be unused space because in the same report at least one agency admitted that even if 100% of their employees returned to the office 33% of their space would still be empty as Mr has testified in previous hearings the federal government spends $2 billion doar a year to operate and maintain Federal Office Buildings regardless of
▶ 0:20:56whether the building is being used this means that American taxpayers are literally paying billions for federal office Bas just to sit empty in response to the findings from GAO subcommittee members put forward a slate of bills to improve the use of office space increase the transparency and hold agencies accountable two PE key pieces of legislation enacted included first the US it act which sets Target
▶ 0:21:27for space usage requ requires deployment of technology to count actual employees using government space and establishes timelines meaning if agencies don't use their space they'll lose it secondly the fast a Reform Act strengthens the authority of the public buildings reform board to identify Federal properties that should be sold on January 5th 2025 these reforms and others put forth by committee members became law
▶ 0:21:57as part of the water resources development act or worda of 2024 with some deadlines in those reforms approaching quickly I look forward to working with GSA om and the public buildings reform board on worda implementation I am pleased that Trump Administration hit the ground running by identifying the waste in federal real estate and promptly taking action to ensure that taxpayer dollars are not wasted on empty buildings this
▶ 0:22:27is not a partisan issue even the mayor of Washington DC has highlighted the negative impact of empty federal Offices on the local economy here in DC American taxpayers expect Congress to hold the federal government accountable for all of its wasteful spending and I look forward to working with the Trump Administration to achieve results for constituents getting a handle on waste in federal real estate can save the taxpayers billions of dollars annually members of both parties should be supportive of this goal
▶ 0:22:58I now recognize ranking member honorable Mr Staten for five minutes for an opening statement thank you very much uh Mr chairman and before I talk about the issue at hand I just want to speak on behalf of all members of Congress that are uh president um we lost a colleague last night uh our colleague Sylvester Turner uh brand new Congress member representing Houston the former mayor of Houston and before that a member of the state legislature uh sadly passed away uh after the uh state of the
▶ 0:23:28union and uh I just I've known him for many many years as a former mayor myself in fact he and I had a chance to work together when Houston hosted the final four and then Phoenix was the next city to host the final four the next year so he trained me up if you will on how to be a good host for the final four he is a legend of Public Service in Texas and we are glad to have the time that we had with him here in the United States Congress we offer our condolences to his family and to all of the people of Houston um
▶ 0:23:59we will miss him today we're here to talk about the general service administration's public building service GSA is the agency in charge of managing government buildings essentially the federal government's real estate agent now many public buildings are underutilized that is a sentiment shared by both Republican and Democratic administrations in the past but rather than going through a proper channels to measure building utilization the Trump Administration moves straight to the least termination and building dispos Al stage announcing
▶ 0:24:29plans to dispose of more than 400 buildings and terminate 2500 leases more than half of the gsa's real estate portfolio to be clear this Congress in a bipartisan way agrees that we need improved efficiency in fact as the chair mentioned the 2024 Water Resources development act which was signed in the law by President Biden in January directed GSA the Office of Management and budget and federal agencies to measure billing utilization over a two-month period and dispose of
▶ 0:24:59space if utilization was below 60% there is a logical and orderly way to do this but the Trump Administration clearly has no intention of following the W directive instead there has been Mass confusion landlords are getting termination letters that their tenants know nothing about parties in the middle of lease negotiations don't know what to do these space disposals are happening at the same time president Trump has mandated a return to work for all federal employees at the same time that they're
▶ 0:25:30making Mass layoffs among federal employees this appears to be a policy at war with itself federal employees are returning to offices that are being disposed of landlords are getting termination notices releases that are still in the firm term period constituents are concerned that they will not have access to VA Health Centers social security field offices or customer service uh for IRS needs if they want to do anything face to face all of this is happening and the g a staff can't or won't
▶ 0:26:00communicate in fact to get information we've had to rely on Word of Mouth from federal employees and reports on the Doge website which lists hundreds of lease terminations Social Security offices VA offices and IRS offices while we're in the swing of tax season in my home state of Arizona the list includes the small business administration the Bureau of Indian Affairs the railro Retirement Board the forest Services supervisor's office The Entity that per processes permits and disseminates information for the entirety
▶ 0:26:30of the Tonto National Forest Northeast of my district the largest national forest in our state the forest building is an important hub for monitoring Tonto if this building is shuttered we don't know where this work will be done it is a concern for those of us as we enter the Fire season in the state of Arizona the loss of those buildings can have implications with the loss of supervisor's office this could mean problems for communication coordination for Wildfire response in in our national forest as you can
▶ 0:27:00tell uh I have a lot of questions about all of this and a few weeks ago I met with the gsa's new commissioner of public buildings Mike Peters who was leading the Trump administration's Federal real estate rightsizing efforts commissioner Peters at that meeting with me accepted an invitation to participate in this hearing and for some reason we don't know why he has changed his mind and he is not present today I don't understand we need to provide oversight over this process commissioner Peters has a responsibility
▶ 0:27:31to be here to explain this to Congress so that we can provide our uh appropriate oversight duties instead of asking commissioner Peters my questions I will pose my questions to the two P Witnesses who are here today and thank you for uh being here Dave Winstead from the public buildings reform board and David from the government accountability office Mr thank you for testifying before the subcommittee and sharing your research and knowledge of federal real estate I admire your fortitude Mr Winstead thank you for your public service on the public buildings reform board and
▶ 0:28:01I look forward to hearing how the board identifies underutilized Federal assets and how the process of recommending disposals to GSA and om can be improved upon thank you Mr chairman chairman I yield back gentleman yields back and now recognize Mr L L Larson the ranking member thank you Mr chairman congratulations you have now now two chairmanships on this you congratulations I want to thank rankie member Stanton as well and thank you for holding this time hearing on the state of the federal real estate
▶ 0:28:31so recent Administration actions to reduce both telea work um and the federal real estate footprint have created confusion and upheaval within the federal real estate landscape and the proposed changes have the potential of a negative impact on the workforce on communities um where the workforce lives private sector landlords and on construction contractors now the GSA owns 1500 buildings and has about 7,500 private sector leases and according to press reports the administration plans to reduce gsa's
▶ 0:29:01owned and leased portfolio 50% in justifying this push for property disposals gsa's new public buildings commissioner has pointed to quote guidance from the 2024 W Bill which many of us worked on but W did not direct the GSA to jump immediately to large scale disposals the worda bill directed GSA and om to work with agencies to measure building occupancy over a 2-month period before making any recommendations for
▶ 0:29:32space uh disposals Congress gave GSA steps one through five but GSA is skipping from step one directly to step five that is causing confusion and Chaos in the uh Federal real estate market the lease terminations are happening quickly and at the same at the same time as there's a return to office mandate as well as the firings as well as the riffs but how can an agency know how much space they require if they don't know how many employees they will have the only
▶ 0:30:02certainty we have is a certain lack of clarity from the administration these actions are Reckless and potentially very costly for taxpayers for example last week the national Transportation safety board not was notified that its lease was going to be terminated in four months it's my understanding although we don't have any proof of this uh in writing it's my understanding the termination decision has now been reversed it is fortunate that the NTSB was not put in this position of having only four months to move not just their offices but their laboratory space
▶ 0:30:33while also investigating 1,195 transportation accidents and incidents at the same time including the recent midair collision near Regan Airport after consistently declining to provide staff with information about building disposals late yesterday gsse GSA shared a list of 400 plus quote non-core assets being considered for divestment from government ownership the list included the Bonville power Administration or BPA headquarters in uh Building Portland and many Utilities in Washington
▶ 0:31:03state and in throughout the Pacific Northwest including the largest public utility in my district get large amounts of their power from the BPA system the selling the building would be very disruptive to bpa's operations and therefore to rate payers throughout the Northwest especially disruptive to the all the employees who have been ordered to return to work uh to uh to work in the office which is fine and I support that the that they do that but they need a place to go to now BPA leases the building from the GSA
▶ 0:31:33and pays for the lease with rate payer money not taxpayer money I pay for the um lease lease space at BPA because I pay rates to my public utility district I don't think anyone else in this room does that this selling this building would not lead to taxpayer savings from the BPA budget uh people are confused about gsa's activities and Congress has little visibility into what exactly GSA is doing and I don't know if GSA knows what it is doing my
▶ 0:32:03own staff is largely getting news of GSA activities from the Press from a Reddit threat titled GSA riff Mega thread you'll never hear me say that again and occasionally from and occasionally from X GSA employees one building owner was told that GSA was terminating a lease but because that lease was still in its firm ter firm term GSA uh sorry because elit was still in its firm term GSA was obl to pay for the space until 2029 gsa's actions have led to confusion amongst the
▶ 0:32:33project managers General Contractors and Engineers who are working on construction projects for gsa's public building service GSA recently resined the p100 facility standards which establish the design architecture engineering fire protection historic preservation and performance requirements for new buildings and major repair and alteration projects how does this recision of the design standards impact construction and renovation projects do they need to be redesigned do contracts need to be redrafted delay and risk are challenging for contractors and
▶ 0:33:03expensive for the government and therefore for taxpayers on January 24th GSA paused all acquisitions and Lease activities including the national deep energy retrofit program and according to one publicly traded Energy company the current nde pause may have DET detrimental impacts on projects currently in construction we that is this company have spent substantial sums on Project design engineering material procurement and employee hiring prolong posi these projects will negatively impact business
▶ 0:33:33investment and chill business certainty so I too am disappointed that U Mr Peters is not with us today but I do have some questions that we're sending to him if agency headcounts are influx how does GSA know how much space agencies need does GSA have the funding and authority to pay expenses associated with closing offices eliminating leases and relocating agencies to new space as gasa cuts its own budget and staff who's going to do the labor intensive work of terminating leases and relocating agencies
▶ 0:34:04is GSA going to hire contractors to replace federal employees so director and Mr Winstead I hope you can answer some of these questions um I don't expect You' be able to answer all those questions but based on your experience hope we can get some insight into that look forward to your testimony and hope you'll be be able to answer some of my questions without a yield back gentleman yields I would now like to welcome our Witnesses and thank them for for being here today briefly I'd like to take a moment to explain our lighting system to our witnesses there are three
▶ 0:34:34lights in front of you green means go yellow means you're running out of time and red means conclude your remarks I ask unanimous consent that the witnesses full statements be included in the record without objection so ordered I ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our Witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing without objection so ordered I also ask unanimous consent
▶ 0:35:04that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection so ordered as your written testimony has been part of the record the subcommittee ask that you limit your or remarks to 5 minutes with that Mr you are recognized for 5 minutes for your testimony thank you chairman eel reing member ston and members of the subcommittee
▶ 0:35:35I'm happy to be here today to discuss gao's views on how to make Federal real property work better for the American taxpayer for more than 20 years we've identify the management of feder property as a high-risk area in need of substantial transformation the fedal government has held on to too much space and has been too slow in shedding unneeded properties Federal buildings are often in poor condition and not well configured for the modern workplace and the data needed to make good real property decisions has often been unreliable in some
▶ 0:36:05cases non-existent the pandemic shined a spotlight on these long-standing problems and created a unique opportunity to rightsize the federal government's Property Holdings there have been important actions in recent years to take advantage of these opportunities but progress has been slow agencies have stayed in a wait and see mode for too long since January there has been a notable shift in momentum GSA is now rapidly moving forward with plans to terminate leases and dispose of large
▶ 0:36:35amounts of federal real property as it does so it's important that GSA and other agencies balance the goal of Speedy reductions with the need for deliberate planning and Analysis to help ensure the most effective result for the taxpayer there are a lot of moving parts right now that will shape Federal Ro property for years to come first the Trump administration's return to office policy and its planned reductions in force are still early in their implementation by summer there will be clearer information on the size and shape of the federal
▶ 0:37:05Workforce and what that means for Real Property needs secondly under the use it act agencies are now required to measure building utilization across their portfolios for the first time as a result by this summer GSA and agencies will have important new data to inform long-term decisions on the federal portfolio third it will take time time and money to move out of one property and to consolidate into another GSA and other agencies need to think through which the reductions
▶ 0:37:35to prioritize and a funding strategy to implement those reductions in a way that makes the most sense gauging how much space is really needed under new Workforce policies and then proceeding with reductions in a deliberate and planned out manner could generate substantial savings and mitigate the risk of mistakes and unexpected Mission impacts in conclusion right sizing the federal government's Real Property Holdings is long overdue as GSA and other agencies move forward with reductions they should do so deliberately
▶ 0:38:05and in a strategic way that balances speed and thoughtful analysis and planning doing so will best position the federal government to achieve the most efficient and effective result for the American taxpayer while ensuring agencies have the right space to successfully carry out their mission Mr chairman that concludes my opening remarks I'll be happy to take any questions thank you Mr Mr Winstead you recognized five minutes for your testimony chairman Isel ranking member Stanton uh delegate Norton who chaired the subcommittee when I was public Building
▶ 0:38:35Commissioner so good to see you again I'm David Winstead and I'm a member of the public building reform board as I mentioned I did have the pleasure of serving as public Building Commissioner about 15 years ago uh I want to thank this committee for creating the sport supporting its extension which as a result we're we are really realizing the potential to save billions of dollars for the federal taxpayer by recommending assets that are truly no longer needed uh to house federal employees and have value
▶ 0:39:05in terms of Redevelopment on a local level uh we the board has independently analyzed 47 properties in a total of 35 million square feet our board is a very diverse board and very P bipartisan board two former members of Congress Nick rayall and Mike capano are members of the board uh myself uh the former staff director of this subcommittee and two major real estate Executives that are have Holdings in New York City and around the country
▶ 0:39:36and our strategy is really to rightsize help GSA and and with working with om to right siize the port portfolio we're reviewing these targeted buildings under the fasta authority based on reinvestment needs occupancy levels building significance as well as the mission of that agency consolidation recommendation will be targeted towards higher quality Federal buildings that Congress has appropriated funds for that we've had the opportunity to reinvest
▶ 0:40:06and have a longer life cycle and also the flexibility of least options during the interim of transition we are reaching out to every member of Congress in the districts where these assets lie we're reaching out to the County Commissioners and mayors of those jurisdictions at well as well so we're doing that in preparation for our recommendations as have been stated the federal portfolio average uh age is over 50 years um and if you look at what they need in terms
▶ 0:40:36of renovation costs most of these buildings that are really have had deferred maintenance for decades would cost $700 to $1,000 per square foot to renovate and so each year GSA sees a deferral if you will of $2 billion of capital liability because they do not have the appropriate funds to invest in those buildings U the government really has two options one is disposal of of buildings that really are no longer
▶ 0:41:06needed and and secondly provide for consolidation of employees in buildings that do have a life cycle that justifies their maintenance and reinvestment there are really two groups of buildings in that category pre-war properties and post-war properties very interestingly as an aside one of the top architects in the District of Columbia uh looked at some of the pre-air conditioned historics buildings and said many of those lend themselves to housing renovation reconversion more
▶ 0:41:36than some of the post last 15 50-year buildings so we are really under our final review of looking at a series of Assets in the next round we hope that we'll identify approximately $18 billion do in cost avoidance over uh 30 years the board found in 2023 that there was a 7 % decrease in occupancy in these Federal buildings an example of that is the Department of Commerce where the
▶ 0:42:07if you count the number of federal employees in that building on an average daily basis it's about $330,000 to house that federal employee another was department of labor $182,000 per year to house house that employee and we are therefore looking at properties in the district primarily Miami La Boston and Atlanta and we're doing Outreach to those communities now as an example of one of the recommendations that might be on our report there's a older building
▶ 0:42:37in La called the Wilshire building and it houses the FBI and the passport office it is not seismically stable it is they haven't had the money to renovate it so we're looking at innovative ways to report that asset out and to have it redeveloped u university UCLA is an adjoining land owner and needs expanded space so there are opportunities there so I would uh just in conclusion uh I did with the testimony put a list of some of
▶ 0:43:07the properties that we're currently evaluating we anticipate we will have a report to Congress within a month or so and we'll be happy to answer any questions uh that might come up when that report comes out so thank you Mr chairman thank you both for your testimony we will now turn to questions from the panel I'll recognize myself for five minutes for questions question one Mr to give some context in 2023 you testified
▶ 0:43:37before this subcommittee detailing the results of gao's review of the actual utilization of agency headquarters buildings here in Washington DC at that time you found that a majority of the buildings had a utilization rate of 25% or less and some as low as 9% is that correct yes today you point out that the federal government spends about 10.3 billion a year just maintaining and operating Federal
▶ 0:44:08buildings but that deferred maintenance has doubled from 170 billion in 2017 to 370 billion today is that correct yes that's correct Mr Winstead you mentioned in your testimony that the Department of Commerce headquarters in Washington DC in 2020 3 cost the taxpayers an average of $322,450 per employee and the Labor Department headquarters
▶ 0:44:41per employee compared to the average cost per person per person in the private sector being $9,600 this is a massive liability to both of you I'd like for both of you to try to answer how did we get to this point and how do we get this massive liability off the books and reduce the cost of federal real estate sure so this is a long-standing challenge we've had this on our high-risk list for 20 years
▶ 0:45:11uh number of reasons how we got here uh one would simply be agencies did not have an incentive to sorry dispose of their real property uh the funding needed The Upfront costs needed to consolidate to move to re locate is something that agencies often didn't have and would have come out of their mission uh other reasons include uh simply the age of the buildings uh have they've gotten older they are created at a different time for a different workplace these agencies and these buildings that no
▶ 0:45:41longer really fit their needs and so huge buildings smaller Workforce they don't need the same amount of space to do the work they did 50 years ago uh and the end result is also deferred maintenance uh to these buildings these buildings in many cases are not wellmaintained in poor condition and so what's the solution to that one solution is targeting buildings that do have those High deferred maintenance backlogs and that are not well used uh those should definitely be top targets for disposal uh that kills two birds with one stone you're getting rid of some of your liabilities and you're also getting
▶ 0:46:12rid of some underused space then you can consolidate into more appropriate facilities Mr Winstead anything to microphone uh the GSA portfolio is roughly 180 million square feet of owned and and about the same of least and I think what all of us must recognize the reality of the market and what happened during Co candidly uh the onset of telework which was 100% the early year of covid and then the adoption of new work
▶ 0:46:42practices did increase the number of people teleworking our Law Firm gave up 50% of its space between covid and today 20125 because more lawyers are working from home and so what we're really dealing with is an aged inventory where we really got to focus on the best maintained core you know core buildings that's worth the federal government taxpayer to invest in and then we've really got to look at at backfilling space that is available but the reality is
▶ 0:47:12you know in the marketplace now more people are teleworking and that really vacated a lot of these buildings for the last three or four years as both of you know Congress enacted significant Federal real estate reforms as part of the 2024 worda including the use it act these reforms mandate that agencies either use their space or lose it I understand however GAO and the public buildings reform board have both found challenges in how GSA sells properties
▶ 0:47:43can you discuss this issue uh to see in how GSA prepares and places properties up for sale and is this process too bureaucratic so again we've reported for for years that this has been also a long-standing problem complicated uh process to dispose of a federal building uh there's many steps to take those are policy choices ultimately uh to go through the V public benefit conveyance system to go through some of the statutory requirements that are in place now so that's something congress
▶ 0:48:13could certainly consider um other parts of the disposal process also is how GSA puts the properties up for sale what s strategies it uses to dispose of properties uh typically it defaults to an online auction site that may not always be the best method to take uh and putting up properties as is sometimes may not be the best approach either thinking about ways to uh make it clear to buyers what they would be getting uh so that you might have a barter Market to put in s put in uh put in sales
▶ 0:48:45offers the just apologize in terms process of GSA it is it's proven to be very very lengthy and and and drawn out we recommended three years ago 12 major assets for disposal and GSA worked the way through them and they they all but one is sold now it's actually on the market but it's a very protracted process in the wisdom of Congress they Exempted our high Valu round from both uh
▶ 0:49:15Title 5 and public benefit conveyance the assets we report out now are Exempted from public benefit so you really are able to streamline you know you can't have uh local government or other Federal agency rais their hand for the assets we report out so we feel strongly that our recommendations with the analysis that we've done around them will allow GSA to move much more expeditiously through the disposal process and really get rid of that property return it to the tax role for Redevelopment
▶ 0:49:45and Housing affordable housing so that's really what our report is targeted at is making strong recommendations both reporting to Congress about you know our recommendations but also to G a uh candidly I think many of the members of the board to former members of Congress are disappointed in in some of the methods gsa's proceeded on um in reality a public auction process is not monitored by the highest real estate interest and REITs and other investors in
▶ 0:50:15the country they just don't look at a public auction site so we're recommending to GSA because of these complicated assets some of the ones that we may report out here in the district are large older buildings no longer needed and is a better way more expeditious way to do it and also in our judgment uh bring in advisory groups to help them determine highest and best use and get the best value back gentlemen yields I now recognize Mr Stanton for five
▶ 0:50:45minutes a question thank you very much uh Mr chairman in your statement you made a strong case as to why we need to do this why we need to uh improve efficiency in our public building utilization and why we need to an Analyze That and dispose of buildings that are no longer needed um as we've made clear uh that's exactly why we passed what we passed in the 2024 worda that was done in an overwhelmingly bipartisan way uh and we are improving those process and we're in agreement we want to make sure that we get the highest and best use of those
▶ 0:51:15buildings and those that are appropriate for public benefit we utilize for uh public benefit these are all things that we agree on in a bipartisan way um I guess the issue that we're dealing with right now is we're in the world of Doge and we're trying to figure out how Doge overlays with the the bipartisan policy that we passed through this committee I mean I think the theory of Doge is move fast and break things which may or may not work in certain instances but disposing of public properties we got a
▶ 0:51:46there's a very good reason why we go through the process and that's to make sure that we are protecting the taxpayers that we get the most value uh of those uh buildings with that I'm going to ask the question to Mr um return to work was GSA as far as you know consulted before the return to work executive order was signed by the president I do not know um if the agency headcounts are in flux how does GSA know how much space
▶ 0:52:16need that's a challenge it's important to know what your Workforce is going to be it's the point I made at the beginning which is unfortunate Mr Peters is not here GSA should be here answering these approp apprpriate question so that we can do our duty of oversight over the uh over the um Mr rone uh GSA does have a new public buildings commissioner and soon after he took the position he said quote it is clear that the footprint uh of nonod federal buildings should be
▶ 0:52:46reduced by at least 50% um that's a pretty remarkable statement for being on the job for only a short period of Time how could the new commissioner possibly know that key information after only 4 days on the job I don't know it is uh it it does take some analysisis to figure out what you need have you personally seen any data that lead you that would lead you to determine that a 50% reduction was warranted we have not done that
▶ 0:53:18analysis do you have Mr wi said do you have any idea I'm kind of moving a different direction here but it is important it was listed uh as yesterday as one of the item I think has been removed it's been it's moving a moving a moving Target about what's on the Doge list what's not on the Doge list um do you have any idea what the current administration's plans are for the FBI's headquarters a congressman I I do not this the the house is um
▶ 0:53:48I I do not I can't speak for GSA obviously there have been plans and actions in the past to move the FBI headquarters ERS to Green Green Belt Maryland I guess is recommend I do not know what the current status is Mr wi said uh as you well know based on your vast experience not all federal space is the same in addition to General office space agencies have specialty spaces science labs warehouses data center Skiffs shooting ranges and
▶ 0:54:18more um should the federal government own uh should the should the federal government own specialty space and Lead allpurpose office space in your opinion uh Congressman yes uh when I was commissioner uh you know specialized governmental space that has high security demands FBI field office Federal Courthouse border stations firing ranges you know those are specialized uses that when I was commissioner and the Congress uh oversaw
▶ 0:54:49a budget those were preserved and should be in my judgment preserved as federally owned space and many times a government agency that has long term leases is going to make tenant improvements major improvements sometimes very specialized improvements because of the nature of the work that they do should the GSA dispose of lease space where the tenant agencies have made significant investments in tenant improvements like holding cells evidence rooms Counter Intelligence equipment what are your thoughts on that I think that in the decision about what the continued tency
▶ 0:55:19costs are evaluating investment by that agency and the Tenant fit outs is very important um you know there are cases where specialized equipment has been paid for by the taxpayer through the agency's budget and so a very careful analysis needs to be made to justify you know moving an agency out of a you know utilize fully utiliz more than 60% when there's specialized equipment there are wonderful cases in maybe your district and elsewhere where
▶ 0:55:49they they're their leas facilities you know large part of the 32 field offices of the FBI were done under a lease construct process so there you were leveraging private sector efficiency but it is a lease based but specialized government use all right thank you very much let me just reiterate that I it's so important that Mr Peters appeared before this subcommittee I'm going to ask chairman uh and chairman Peters well to uh have another hearing as soon as possible so that we can get substa of answers on
▶ 0:56:19these very fair questions a lot of angst associated with public buildings these days with return to work termination large scale terminations the desire to sell off underutilized assets as quickly as possible so GSA needs to be here ASAP thank you m chairman back gentleman yields uh chair now recognize Mr rashan brush your hand thank you Mr chairman I didn't know if I heard of Barrett or Brean there so uh yesterday we found out that three Federal
▶ 0:56:49buildings in my district are being considered for sale by the GSA and classified as non core assets three buildings uh roughly an hour ago Bloomberg reported the list of properties potentially for sale was taken off a gsa's website and the decision reversed uh in my district this list originally includes the wilberry Federal Building the Social Security Administration data operations center in Plains Township and a maintenance building in WSB the Social Security data center employs nearly
▶ 0:57:201,400 workers and I want to express my extreme frustration that I learned about this on the news not from the GSA or the administration uh Mr Winstead you had mentioned that you were going to be notifying members of Congress as to how the course of action would proceed um when was the member of Congress going to be notified that there could be implications to facilities inside of his district Congressman um the
▶ 0:57:51list that came out of GSA that has now been pulled off the website was as I understand I'm not speaking for GSA was done was a result of a long-term review by the portfolio office that is distinguishable we hope that more assets will come our way to be considered under the more expeditious uh sales process of fasta but we you know we were not involved in that that side of it but I will tell you it's it's very important in any asset
▶ 0:58:21that comes through faster that we're engaging broadly with the community and you know and and listening to both the agency need in that location as well as engage with the elected officials on the local state and federal level and I I think that brings me to my next question is some of our concerns is we need the pbrb and the GSA to ensure the sale would support our local communities and and not become a strain and I'm very familiar with these two different uh physical structures but um
▶ 0:58:51definitely have grave concerns when this is kind of a shell shock and we're sprung into action behind behind the eightball so obviously I know you're not speaking on behalf of the GSA but would welcome another conversation to make sure that we're all lock step on what the future plans are for these buildings um my my next question for Mr uh the director of physical infrastructure correct correct you had mentioned in uh your testimony about some deferred maintenance costs on the facilities um
▶ 0:59:22whose responsibility is that to make sure the buildings maintained and Ade adequately upkept to remain marketable so that's going to be GSA and the agencies depend on who depending on who has control of that facility do they provide guidance or does your office provide guidance how does that work uh in terms of mainten GSA has policies and procedures for that and agencies that have control of that would as well in terms of how they maintain facilities what's the most common form of deferred maintenance that
▶ 0:59:52you have observed I don't know if there's a most common I could point out uh there's a there's a range of things everything from uh basic repairs uh to your elevators being out to major structural repairs uh it depends on the building uh back to Mr Winstead in your testimony you've identifi 19 billion in cost avoidance over 30 years on recommended properties to dispose of approximately 633 million per year in Federal Savings how does
▶ 1:00:22the annual cost savings compare to impacts on local economy and services like Head Start or other benefit Serv benefits within the community I think Congressman the assets that we report out are are largely Surplus and underutilized right so we're not talking about it's not like the Brack process we're not talking about moving jobs we're just talking literally about uh housing federal employees in better buildings better workspace so I think the the real opportunity
▶ 1:00:52for the assets that we're looking at and will be reporting to Congress number one everybody will be notified and all their input will be considered but it really is uh we're trying to engage very very much not just with elected officials but with a community in in that area for example 40% of the GSA inventories in Washington DC we've eached asked to De Elanor nort delegate Norton two years ago on this we're talking to the mayor constantly the department of uh the director of planning for
▶ 1:01:22the district the national Capitol Park and planning so we're really trying to get everybody's involvement in what is the best option and what is the best Redevelopment potential for those properties uh so I really don't see a negative downside to this these buildings even with the return of federal employees uh these buildings are no longer needed basically so how do you turn them back what tools do the federal government local government the developer bring to the table to redevelop
▶ 1:01:53it with more vibrancy better Amendment ities more housing maybe some office space probably not and it goes on the local tax Ro one of the things the district is suffering from is a huge drop in property tax valuations right now I mean everybody is most Metropol areas are so I think that you know looking at the potential we are actually uh you know we're analyzing what is the highest and best use it's a buyer that would take that through the process but we're trying to get a handle on taking
▶ 1:02:23this asset or building what is the best use and what's the value thank you both for being here Mr chairman I yield back the chair recognizes ranking member Mar Larson for five minutes thank you thank you very much chair um Mr Winstead and Mr Ron I will answer representative Bran's an uh question about when are they planning to tell us never and I think the process that we hope they use is one when they notify us sooner
▶ 1:02:54than never uh next time and we passed this uh bill as part of the Water Resources development act and developed it in a bipartisan way under the leadership of Scott uh Perry representative Perry so that there was a a process because we wanted to be very clear to GSA we have too much space they need to methodically look at the space look at the numbers of people and then and then make some decisions about what to keep and what not to keep uh but as I noted in my in my opening
▶ 1:03:24statement it seems that they instead of doing steps one through five they the GSA just started at step one and jumped to step five uh of the of the US it act and I'm um and that's seems that that's where we are um right now but I do think um that for for um for Mr thinking about the bill the law that we passed it was part of worda it's only not worda it's just was a bill we T tacked onto it
▶ 1:03:54um can you talk to me about how like given what we put out how many how many months would it have taken GSA to just kind of walk through that process to get to where GSA got overnight so under the US it act uh within six months of the law passing which was in January so basically June uh they would have needed to agencies would need to start measuring their utilization so that's a really key data point so by Summer by summer and I I don't know
▶ 1:04:25you it's not your job to answer this question but it doesn't seem to me why we can't wait until summer for that because there's bipartisan support for that bill it's not like they're racing against Congress catching up with them we told GSA to do this we want them to do this and it seems like they're they're racing ahead to do something for for for some re other reason and I I don't know what it is but we have a process we put in place just want them to use it and then if we don't like the answer shame on us
▶ 1:04:56right for passing the law but that that would be the answer can you talk to me a little bit about um the 2019 relocation I think you were asked to look at um the moving of Department of AEG and Bureau of Land Management staff from DC to Kansas and Colorado um you you studied that can you talk to us about did that reduce cost did it attract highly qualified staff what was your assessment of the move of those two two parts to different parts of the country so I'm familiar
▶ 1:05:26with report that report not in detail what I can say is that any relocation is going to involve real property costs uh there's going to be transactional cost for the move I would say there are other issues to as well to consider in addition to real property but we can certainly get back to you with information on that report you back specifically about um that just to learn some learn some lessons there might be some good reasons and some really bad reasons to move folks from uh or functions out of DC or back back into DC um as well um uh Mr
▶ 1:05:56Winstead if you could just answer for me your your first round of recommendations from the group was 47 properties is that right Congressman the first round was the 12 High valued assets High assets have all been sold but for one in in U Palo Alto which is now on the market okay and now and then what's the next step the next are is the report we'll be sending to you uh to Congress and OMB and obviously working weekly with GSA of of properties
▶ 1:06:26that are in the second round that we've analyzed we've attached a page in my testimony that highlights some of the buildings that we've been analyzing so these are the ones that are going to be addressed in that report and some of those buildings if not all those buildings are on the list of 400 plus the list that was put online and taken offline right is that right I yeah but many others right these are only maybe 50 50 assets so there are a lot of others that appeared on the list that GSA post I'm talking about your list
▶ 1:06:57the ones on your list are on the were on the on the GSA list that was pulled off I I assume so yeah yeah I assume so because they are for the record they are because we could okay I cross it um is that your last set of recommendations or do you have another set of recommendations after this after this so then we have another round so we'll be reporting this next round out within a month or so and then we'll have another round at the end of 2026 Congress extended the board until the end of 2026 and I I think what's significant about
▶ 1:07:27that congressman is we really are seeing the impacts of telea work and obviously the directive of federal employees coming to the office how many days a week will have an impact on that but I I think two more years will give us even more time to look at Assets in more detail and then in that last round really recommend properties that are no longer needed and we do have the authority thank right on time I just want to just know like this spaghetti on the wall approach is just is just not working for the
▶ 1:07:57administration but if they worked with the law that we passed they work with you all I mean by the end of 2026 we will all have a fairly decent story to tell about the amount of leas space and owned space that we got rid of it may not be what everyone wants but we'll all be able to tell that story and tell it make it a good story and it'll line up with the numbers of people that were expecting to come back into offices as well that's it's just it's fluing to to me why there's this headlong Rush
▶ 1:08:28um from the GSA to to do these things that they're having to pull back on anyway we we can we can help them do that we we committed to the law we passed so I would just note that and yield back well I do think that the word of I have to yield back so you're yes yeah thanks yeah the chair yields to himself five minutes U Mr the gao's 2023 report found that 17 of 24 agency headquarters buildings were occupying operating in 25% or less capacity um what
▶ 1:08:58structural or bureaucratic barriers do we have that prevent agencies from consolidating or uh or or relinquishing under utilized spases I mean in terms of consolidation the main factor is just uh having the planning and the funding to do it there's not agencies could consolidate uh it it does take time it does take money but they could consolidate right and um the office of man man agement budget has prohibited GSA from
▶ 1:09:28negotiating discounted purchases on leases often often forcing government to pay more over time what impact has this had on long-term costs and um how could that be changed to save the taxpayers I didn't hear the first part yeah the first part uh OMB has prohibited the GSA from negotiating discounted purchases on buildings and often that forces the government to pay more than they they might have otherwise uh how could that addressed
▶ 1:09:59so how it could be addressed if it's a if it's a policy I'm not familiar with that specific policy if it's a policy it could be addressed by Congress through law or by onb got it okay and um you it's okay and um then um the uh utilizing space efficiency and improving Technologies act the US it act mandates a 60% occupancy threshold for for federal buildings how can Congress ensure that that agencies
▶ 1:10:29comply with that requirement right well I think an important role for this this subcommittee in itself is holding hearings holding oversight uh with GSA and the other relevant agencies to make sure that they are following through on what's required by Statute okay thank you and Mr Winstead um you mentioned the board's analysis um that the board's analysis had um saved $19 billion in cost avoidance over 30 years can you walk us through those savings and What factors contribute
▶ 1:10:59the most to those savings Congressman what we what we have done with the assets some of which appear last page is we've gone in basically assessing what the Deferred maintenance has been and we've analyzed what is needed if we if the government decided to keep that building what would it take to reinvest it to bring it up to workspace that the federal employee you know can function so that's how we're doing we're looking at basically the condition of the building
▶ 1:11:30the utilization of the building deferred maintenance in the building and if those judgments say keep the building then what's needed to be appropriated by Congress to the public building fund to bring that building up to standard and obviously part of this is backfilling the buildings I think Congress has been very in the in the recent legislation said 60% utilization uh data every year on what's being done in these buildings housing plans from each Federal agency in terms
▶ 1:12:00of how they're using the space how many employees are there but the other thing that needs to be done is the communication of the bottom line of our reports from GSA have to reach the top levels of federal agencies it's got a really a decision uh because some of the things we're looking at are underutilized federal buildings here in DC some of which have agencies names on them and they're no longer Justified to be maintained so convincing that secretary assistant secretary Administration that it's
▶ 1:12:30the best interest of the taxpayer for them to move into another Federal Building that's better maintained and sell that building for redevelopment so that that those are the uh that's the analysis and we have a lot of analysis of the committee all these assets when we U have been totally analyzed and we can send that to the committee as well how we've calculated those costs and and that are backed up our decision to Surplus the building thank you I yield
▶ 1:13:01back um Miss Norton is recognized for minutes uh I strongly oppose omv and opm's a recent decision to federal agencies to quote propose relocations of agency bureaus and offices from Washington DC and the national capital reason to less likely parts of the country end
▶ 1:13:33quote I also strongly oppose the many bills that have been introduced this Congress to relocate the headquarters uh for federal agencies in the national capital region to outside the national capital region these relocations as we saw during the first Trump Administration would harm the operation s of these agencies and waste taxpayer dollars they would also harm the economy of the national capital region
▶ 1:14:04on Monday I introduced a bill to prohibit such relocations however there are specific Federal buildings in DC that GSA should dispose of and move the employees from those buildings into other buildings in DC these disposals would save the federal government money generate tax revenue for DC increase housing Supply in DC and create new mixed juice
▶ 1:14:34neighborhoods in DC Congress has passed many of my bipartisan bills to transfer unused and underutilized federal buildings and land in DC to the DC government or the private sector including the Webster School uh with chairman Perry uh what became the warf and the yards and most recently the RFK Stadium campus I first introduced a bill
▶ 1:15:052014 to facilitate the de Redevelopment of the Southwest Federal Center into a mixed juice neighborhood uh Mr Winstead please discuss the opportunity to dispose of federal buildings in the Southwest Federal Center to create a new mixed juuse neighborhood and connect the National Mall and the Wolf delegate Norton um as you know because we've U it's in the report and we've briefed you there are number of
▶ 1:15:35buildings that are far allall building is the building right on la font Plaza but there's the Whitten building the agriculture South that that many of the people that have looked at it that are still very underutilized and a lot of ncpc uh the mayor's office your office uh Department of uh planning for the district have looked at it and I think it's a wonderful opportunity to basically begin as many people view it opening up the mall of
▶ 1:16:05the Waterfront H the farall building is one of those where it's costing $130,000 a a year to house the federal employees that show up if you were able to take down the farall building h it would develop there'd be four Parcels there ways to develop it for affordable housing for mixed juice for amenities but one of the visions that architect atom has is it would really create a connection between the mall and the Waterfront he described it as sort of the Spanish Steps of Washington
▶ 1:16:36DC you would get out the end laon Plaza and you could go down the steps and get over to the Waterfront so these are some of the visions that are options if you will that need to be studied carefully by the department of planning for the district by ncpc but that's happening ul ul board on some of these options so I think it's in that case it's very exciting you're taking grossly underutilized buildings uh there other opportunities to redevelop them if they're historic
▶ 1:17:06one of the buildings in Southwest has already open as a residential building it was an historic building so I think that uh there's some great opportunities we're working closely with all the players in the district in terms of what the impact of surplus in these properties are number one the timing of them there is concern generally that we don't want to you know all these assets shouldn't come on the market at one time they should be reported out but maybe a phasing Southwest assets I've just mentioned
▶ 1:17:36near agriculture are a first phase in my judgment but so I think they're uh you know I think some very exciting things that people are envisioning we have developers and uh that have advised through Uli and ncpc and I think your staff's probably seen those reports uh Mr wian uh how would uh the disposed of federal buildings in the Southwest Center Center positively impact Federal taxpayers and
▶ 1:18:06the federal government well uh the board makes its recommendations to GSA and their disposal division uh is the one that handle them but we have in the past and will continue do to make very specific recommendations of how they could be surplused and sold for redevelopment in a phased way the other thing the board seeing as we have a couple major real estate people just understanding what the highest and best use of that asset is really saying what is it is it is it some residential
▶ 1:18:37is it some museums for the Smithsonian in terms of the farall building is AD Jason Smithsonian so and how do you phase it what should be brought to the market first we'll be working closely with director planning in the district and others uh to try to help and support that it's really their actions our report and our action is really reporting them out but uh we're looking at phasing we're looking at engaging uh users investors and getting and getting their best
▶ 1:19:09ideas the Gen the gentleman from California Mr Kylie is recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chair uh I don't know that there could be a more potent symbol of government waste and inefficiency uh than the spectacle of federal Office Buildings just sitting there empty with taxpayers uh footing the bill I'm seeing that uh GSA manages more than 8,300 owned and leased assets totaling over 365
▶ 1:19:39million square feet that's easy to remember it's a million square feet for every uh day of the year uh that the cost of operating maintaining and leasing office space cost 8 billion uh annually uh and yet a report last year showed an occupancy rate an average building occupancy rate of just 12% uh 12% so it's it's interesting because we have this uh emergent set of talking points uh here in
▶ 1:20:09uh the capital uh among some that no the federal government is perfect uh there's no need to modernize it no need to scale it back uh no need to improve uh efficiency in the use of taxpayer resources uh and then you you can view alongside that sentiment this picture of all these Federal buildings is just sitting there being paid for uh with no one in them we even have reports of Shadow or dark space in federal buildings and leases which are just not not used at all and not even assigned uh
▶ 1:20:39simply just sitting there this is something that uh American taxpayers uh have every right to be outraged about and I think that Mr Winstead you put sort of a uh a cost per employee on office space for some departments would you mind repeating those numbers I believe it was in the hundreds of thousands yeah Congressman we um in our report uh in March of last year there was data in it that showed based on the occupancy as you suggest 20% or average at 20% what is the
▶ 1:21:09cost to gsaa maintaining that building per employee and it varied from Commerce 160 to Department of energy 130 but it's it's totally un unjust for employee that's actually present or per just employee that show up that show up per employee that show up versus per day during the course of the year because for everyone that shows up four don't show up is what yeah yeah and and you know in a private sector office building the cost of employee space is about $10,000
▶ 1:21:39a year interesting so the the average cost is over 10 times higher for the government than for the priv sector more than that um and again you you know it's an impact of covid it's an impact of telor policy and work habits since Tork happened it's obviously an impact of O OPM and their directive in terms of federal employees presence in office but it it really has last two or three four years since we've been looking at this it's really gotten worse right in terms
▶ 1:22:10of the utilization I mean that's fascinating because even the private sector has had you know under utilization issues and you're saying even uh given that uh we're paying 10 times more per employee uh than than they are in the private sector in the instance of those buildings at the time we looked at utilization versus the cost the GSA pays to maintain that building per year yes it's over 10 times I also found it interesting that the GAO has noted that agencies are reluctant to share their headquarters uh with other agencies
▶ 1:22:40and they cite a lack of mission alignment uh which is a little hard for me to understand because after all these are all agencies that uh are serving Americans are part of the federal government that seems like enough of a mission alignment but um even if there was none whatsoever I walk into business uh buildings all the time that have completely unrelated uh businesses working next to each other but also maybe it would be good if the agencies were talking to each other a little more one of the problems that we have in our bureaucracy is that things are so sideloaded so you get an approval from this agency
▶ 1:23:10but then you're waiting years to get one for this agency or you asked this agency to be to approve and they said they need to wait for that agency and apparently they have no way to talk to each other and cordinate so maybe if they could pick up the paper and walk it across the hall to someone down the hall that might make the federal government uh work better together a little bit uh so what do you think U Mr is there something to be said for trying to uh get agencies under the same Roof oh definitely agencies that reluctance is not acceptable thank you very much hopefully that's something
▶ 1:23:41that we can work on and uh I think that we can not only save taxpayers a lot of money but send a message about the new found uh Paradigm of efficiency and modernization that we're trying to usher in at the federal level I yeld back the gentleman woman from Michigan Miss McDonald RI rivet is recognized for five minutes thank you very much I'm trying to put these pieces together uh when um we're talking about data collection and so
▶ 1:24:11um very clearly we have to be the best stewards of taxpayer dollars and we should not be paying for space that is not utilized we should not um we should not be paying for buildings that have very low occupancy what I'm a little concerned about so Mr winon you talked about U the data that you've been collecting and the work that you've been doing which sounds excellent by the way um about with the impact of T work um but we're seeing return to work we're seeing T work um ended
▶ 1:24:41very abruptly and you know just this just this week we're starting to see reports in the news that are talking about how the messiness of that due to poor p planning we've got workers showing up in places where there is no desks no Wi-fi no lights uh and there's a lot of chaos that's happening right now so I'm really encouraged M when you were talking about the collection of data that we should be able to have something solid to work from but when I think about the data that you are both talking about over the last several years
▶ 1:25:12as well as what's being collected right now when we've got mass chaos on the right on the return to policy how isn't the data you're collecting now going to be somewhat invalid two three months from now isn't there a place where um uh in the best interest of efficiency and uh saving taxpayer dollars we want to be logical and methodical in this what what validity will your data have this summer
▶ 1:25:42with so much chaos in the landscape right now you need good data to make good decisions that's been a problem in real property for a long time uh and with the use it act there is a chance to have utilization data for the first time when we did our study in 2023 we could only really do headquarters buildings because once you got outside of the Nash cppa region that data really didn't exist so the use adct is a really important step to both set benchmarks and get the kind of data you're describing and that data is really important if you're deciding what buildings to dispose of because understanding the utilization
▶ 1:26:13profile uh is really essential in addition to knowing how many people are going to be coming into those buildings of course no argument here my question is around the the data so as we are seeing the a little bit of a hiccup around this return to work how is how are those data collected and in what timeline so can you really count utilization of people are in offices where there are no lights or
▶ 1:26:43no Wi-fi uh as we try to try to work through this so under the law uh agencies will be required to at least use badging data swipe data so so understanding the problems you're highlighting for people working in those spaces if they don't have I'm sorry sir but over what time period pardon over what time period over what time period the badging data I believe they are required to start measuring in six months so June summer uh they start measuring in June yeah they have to start measuring in June uh and use at least badge swipe data
▶ 1:27:13they can use other Technologies as well that's part of the law but badge swipe data would allow you if someone's coming into the building regardless of the quality of the workspace they're in it would give you a sense of how many people are coming into the building okay thank you I Y back the gentleman from Alabama Mr figures is recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chair uh Mr I think most of my questions uh will be uh for you uh and I just want some clarity because I'm
▶ 1:27:43I'm down in Mobile Alabama that's where I'm from my District covers a few other uh cities including Montgomery Alabama but uh we hear uh through media reports of different facilities identified somewhere on the Doge list somewhere not on the website and so in hopes of getting some clarity uh around the process uh you know how these decisions are being made I'm hoping that we can get some understanding here do you personally communicate with anybody on the Doge team with person that communicate with Doge
▶ 1:28:14uh we have not oh uh is that just for you and your uh component office or is that for uh the entire organization so gi gi know has had some Li limited interactions uh with Doge but in our overall work most of our work is with GSA since they're the action Federal property all right but during the GSA Pro process for acquisition you guys are in contact with GSA for any of our audit work we are that's on federal Ro property we're almost
▶ 1:28:44certainly going to be in contact with GSA and before the Doge process where you did you guys have a role in the um let's call it getting rid of any uh phys IAL property so our role is to investigate and look at ways to do disposals more effectively and efficiently just overall government operations more effectively and efficiently so we have been involved over the years in looking at this challenge of underused space of how to dispose of that property and right siiz Real Property Holdings but as an independent auditor not as a involved
▶ 1:29:14in the decision-making process got it but you guys have that expertise in that in terms of um investigating uh yet you you guys are not being consulted in the process currently uh no although we typically would not be we're not involved in executive branch decision- making so we ask questions based on our audit objectives and we want information back on those questions but we aren't involved in the decision-making process absolutely and Mr winad I do have one for you as well uh as we making these my concern
▶ 1:29:44is that these decisions are being made so fast uh and I'm in I think the same boat as everybody I don't think anybody wants us to be sitting on unused real estate St and paying for it um but I get the feeling that these decisions are being made so fast and so um uh just in such a rush that there is not sufficient investigation going on or sufficient collaboration going on in terms of what are the long-term needs or what are the possible needs um of leases that we're terminating and I'm also uh we're getting reports that doge
▶ 1:30:15is uh saying that they terminated leases that were terminated uh months ago if not years ago uh before the Trump Administration uh came in and so it just leads me uh to being very concerned about communication and streamlined communication as the decision-making process is going forward uh with which leases to terminate again if we don't need it we should terminate it uh but can you talk to us a little bit about the suggestions that you would provide in terms of making sure that the decision process uh is being as informed as it can possibly be
▶ 1:30:45sure um Congressman so with the assets that I referred to in this report and that we are uh really examining and have been it it we've done it over a longer period of time and this isn't something that's happened we've really been looking at for two years and a half and our engagement with the administration is both directly with the commissioner on a weekly basis and also om on a not a weekly but a regular basis in terms of
▶ 1:31:15what we're finding in terms of the sustainability of that building or the and the lack of need for it over the long term and then so that our recommendations are fully vetted with the agency and that their review gsa's independent review or their portfolio uh can consider what we're looking at in the assets that we've targeted is the highest value that grossly you know most of them totally unutilized and the best return to that host jurisdiction in terms of redeveloping
▶ 1:31:46that property for Generation it goes on the local tax rle it it creates new construction jobs and that that kind of thing so we very much engaged coordinating with the commissioner of public buildings Mike Peters uh his team and also the OM the New Om people that are overseeing GSA thank you Mr Speaker are you back or Mr chairman I'm sorry the chairman recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee Mr Cohen
▶ 1:32:16thank you sir uh I was watching my television and I saw Mr Stanton asking questions about this issue and something that concerns me because I was informed by my staff yesterday that they got some Bloomberg report that showed that the GSA and Mr uh genius from uh South Africa was proposing closing the Memphis federal building which contains our Courthouse our U us attorney our US Marshals the Corp of Engineers
▶ 1:32:47um probation office uh and my office so it came as a bit as a shock to me I knew some of the judges have been trying to find a new building for for for Memphis to have a courthouse we're I don't think we're very high up on the prospective Courthouse list and it seems like we should at least be on the list for a new courthouse before they get rid of the courthouse we're in federal building we have now is 98% occupied uh the judges claim that there's a lot of
▶ 1:33:17problems in the building and they have shown me pictures of the vents with lots of black g in it and whatever they they tote those around with them like some Hugh Hefner probably would have carried Centerfolds and uh it's pretty strange but that's what they do uh I have no problem with the Federal Building I've been there for 18 plus years and have never had a problem they say they might have a problem with uh security and that the elevators could take prisoners up and down and from holding tanks to cour there's never been a prisoner I think ever escape or ever try to
▶ 1:33:47escape in 35 40 years all of the sudden oh we've got to have a new building do either of y'all know anything about the Memphis Federal Building and how it got put on the list and what the story is no not me Congressman I I do not know what uh the current uh review by GSA is on that property um I will tell you that um GSA from my background 15 years ago you know the federal cour houses and the mix teneted
▶ 1:34:17Federal cour houses where there's other or a lot of the renovation that's been driven was really to improve the security in that courthouse in terms of the flow between the visitors the members of the jury the judges and the and the defendants and I so GSA put in billions of dollars over the last 15 years upgrading cour houses I don't know the Memphis specifically I haven't had the pleasure of going there but there could be some issues there about the
▶ 1:34:47value of maintaining and renovating that building versus you know new courthouse the only thing I can but you know at 95% occupancy I mean that's a utilized building right I mean that's highly utilized so it's not it's not on the parameters that the committee and the new legislation directs that you know it's it's higher than 60% but there could be there there could be some rationale about uh the safety of that building
▶ 1:35:18because of the Court function and the need to separate the older cour houses do not have the separation that the newer cour houses do so yeah well it's a more difficult to get into the uh building with the security we have and and The Limited entes they have now than it is would be to get into a u Charlie Palmer's giving stake away Charlie Palmer's is here anymore Capital Grill or whatever
▶ 1:35:48uh so y'all I was just shocked and I guess I don't know if GSA is out there listening GSA if you're listening please uh find the tapes uh the letters it was the letters what the emails the emails yeah but I imagine they're listening the congressman has more to do with that building than the judges the judges have I don't know how they found the time to spend all this time trying to find a new building when they've got all these cases to deal with but uh it seems like if they're going to
▶ 1:36:18sell a building and they got to have a buyer and uh there hasn't been a lot of buyers for buildings in that neighborhood recently but uh they they should at least have a place to put the the uh the courts and the other offices that are housed there now before they decide they're going to sell the building and tear it down absolutely and I'm sure G gsa's monitoring this so I know that they'll get back to you thank you GSA my name is Steve Cohen Coen
▶ 1:36:48uh I'm on the third floor of the Odell Horton building which I had named for Odell Horton a famous and jurist an African-American jurist and name for him because he is an inspiring figure for young people that want to go into the law and he was a great judge and a great prosecutor and African-American and don't tear him down thank you GSA the chair the chair recognizes the gentle lady from New Jersey Miss Poe thank you thank you Mr chairman um
▶ 1:37:18and thank you to our raing members Stanton for letting me to participate in this very important meeting and especially the timely what a timely hearing it is um I want to ask our uh Witnesses if you would please turn around and see if you uh do you know the man who's in that portrit right there that I'm pointing to so let me just tell you who he is he is Rober r one of my predecessors
▶ 1:37:49in Congress Bob R was the chairman of this committee committee then it was called the Public Works committee I asked because Bob Rose name adorns the Federal Building in my home city of Patterson the same Federal Building we just learn just today is on a list of 440 properties to be disposed by the Trump Administration
▶ 1:38:19the IRS and the Social office have public office facing uh there um at this very moment serving the people of the third largest city in the state of New Jersey and all of our other neighboring towns the lines to access needed Services form very early in the morning the road building is a critical resource
▶ 1:38:50for our community just uh just last year in October the GSA awarded a contract for $5.8 million courtesy of the inflation reduction act for the much needed Renovations and repair so now less than six months later the proposed sale of the road building strikes me as nonsensical and I will vigorously as you
▶ 1:39:20can see will indeed oppose this so I want to ask and I want to start with Mr Winstead can you please explain to me and to the to this uh body here how the list of the buildings to be sold was compiled and can you explain the trumpet uh government's criteria and rationale congresswoman that um that building uh the roow building um is not uh on
▶ 1:39:50the list that our board is looking at it was in issued on a on a list that came out I think Tuesday right and then was withdrawn I think um again I think that GSA will fully get in touch with you on that and I'll make I'll obviously convey that as well but I I um so that list was withdrawn um I think last night so let me just say well first of all I'm very happy to
▶ 1:40:20hear that but to be honest with you for us us to be hearing I know one of um my fellow colleagues spoke about it just before I did to hear that these lists are these properties to hear from the public which is what how I actually learned about it because it was in the newspaper not because anyone notify and the fact that if it was in fact withdrawn we get absolutely no notification and information so I really believe um Mr chairman and to
▶ 1:40:50to to uh to the our two um folks that are here today uh presenting testimony we really have to have a better line of communication so that we can avoid these things from happening I'm very happy to hear that I look forward to GSA communicating with my office to letting us know what is the real status believe me when I tell you when we are dealing with one of the most highly needed um and
▶ 1:41:20I listen very carefully to your Point earlier when you were mentioning a respond that it is based on the highest and best use of the building there could be no better you better use of for that building than for the use of making sure that they are providing the much needed services to the people of our uh district and they are doing their job so I'm going to just be looking out for that and and thank you so very much for comment so I'll
▶ 1:41:51be looking out for that thank you thank you I yield back thank you thank you the gentle lady yields back are there further questions from any of the members of the subcommittee who have not yet been recognized seeing none that concludes our hearing for the day I would like to thank all of the witnesses who appeared before us today the subcommittee stands