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▶ 0:18:43economic growth energy policy and Regulatory Affairs will come to order just want to welcome everyone to the hearing without objection the chair May declare a recess at any time I recognize myself for the purpose of making an statement Welcome to the first hearing of the subcommittee on economic growth energy policy and Regulatory Affairs for the 119th Congress it is a personal honor to serve as the chairman of this committee and I look forward to working with ranking member Frost and my colleagues
▶ 0:19:13on this subcommittee over the course of this Congress as we tackle urgent problems facing the American people today's hearing topic concerns every District across the country the state of America's energy reliability power demand is is expected to grow dramatically if not exponentially in the coming years as new manufacturing facilities and data centers are built throughout the country with the new demand comes a lot of questions where will this additional power come from are we doing enough
▶ 0:19:43to create more power generation and transmission if we are not are we setting our power grid up to crash what will all this mean for the American people and how can they be assured the energy bills won't continue to rise new innovation particularly in the field of nuclear energy offers promising Solutions but it is often thwarted from reaching its full potential due to Regulatory and permitting challenges imposed by this government reliable and trusted sources of power generation
▶ 0:20:13such as Natural Gas Co and coal are still fighting against regulatory obstacles created by the previous administration burdensome regulations have been the silent killer of economic growth and prosperity in our country and have lasting implications for us Industries particularly the power sector the Biden EPA power plant rule will if left in place Force premature retirement of existing power plants across the country without providing a clear path forward for bringing New Power Generation
▶ 0:20:44online last Congress I introduced the reliable grid Act of 2024 to address this issue and ensure that Americans everywhere have access to Affordable reliable energy supplies under the Trump Administration significant steps are already being taken taken to revitalize our nation's energy sector recent executive actions seek to expand oil and gas production reverse previous limitations and unleash our energy Independence these initiatives coupled with an ongoing regulatory forms are to
▶ 0:21:14alleviate unnecessary burdens on energy development are poised to modernize our power generation and transmission infrastructure ensuring reliable and affordable energy supply for all Americans over the course of this Congress I hope that this subcommittee Can Shed light on where reforms are needed and bring forth practical and hopeful bipartisan solutions to better serve the American people I look forward to our conversation here today and with that I yield to ranking member Frost for his opening statement thank
▶ 0:21:44you so much chlin Burleson and um thank you to the witnesses for being here this morning um has someone who grew up experiencing increasingly frequent hurricanes and power outages it is so important for our subcommittee to work on the issue of energy reliability and I look forward to that uh my constituents and many of our constituents are in danger because of the power outages after Extreme weather they cost families thousands of dollars in wasted food medicine create mold mildew damage and it's deadly um I introduced the bipartisan
▶ 0:22:15energy storage for resilient homes act so Floridians and folks across the country can install home energy uh storage batteries as part of FEMA's disaster mitigation support proper energy storage combined with clean energy means reliable electricity one meta analysis of 11 studies shows that we can match energy supply and demand under any conditions with a 70 to 90% clean energy grid promoting clean energy is a key part of promoting reliable energy and it has also been a huge
▶ 0:22:45benefit to the American economy the support for clean energy that was found in the inflation reduction act including the home energy rebate programs helped our energy Supply while also lowering bills and taxes for financially burdened families upgrading our appliances and protecting our homes from extreme weather despite those benefits unfortunately president Trump has now Frozen a lot of this funding the law lowered missions employed half a million Americans and boosted American manufacturing while shrinking costs
▶ 0:23:15for families from hurricanes to droughts the climate crisis is here and it is our patriotic duty to do everything we can to reverse it and right now our government is stuck in a vicious cycle of working to produce more fil fuels which then increases pay um at Big oil companies which then worsens the climate collapse then the government government continues to subsidize the fossil fuels um and then we produce more fossil fuels but unfortunately we haven't seen that c these costs go down
▶ 0:23:45for working families and I do think we need to break this cycle one of President Trump's first executive orders called the unleashing American uh called unleashing American energy is supposedly aimed at restoring American prosp erity through affordable and reliable energy however the methodology is extremely weak first we continue to say that we're going to be imposing tariffs on goods from Canada including crude oil but the US is heavily reliant on Canadian Oil because most of the oil produced here is not compatible
▶ 0:24:16with our refineries and vehicles tariffs leveled Levi on Canada will increase energy prices for Americans and it's not just energy higher energy costs make it more expensive to transport nearly all goods and materials across the country so from clothing to food the cost of energy is important um in every single thing second a key component of the executive order is ending the use of the cost of social cost of carbon um measured in federal policym this measures uh this measure
▶ 0:24:46enables agencies to accurately account for all the cost of carbon-based fossil fuels and ensure companies are doing the that the companies that are doing the polluting are paying for the cost of the pollution I just want to paint a picture of why it's so important to use the social cost of carbon measure let's say a new gas fired uh Power Plant is built in the historic town of Eatonville Florida which is in my district a family that lives a few miles away won't see a penny of that company's profits but they will
▶ 0:25:16have to pay more when their kids get asthma or the parents have lung cancer and as the increase carbon emissions cause climate change they're at greater risk of a hurricane destroying their home or natural disaster ERS which also means that they will face higher insurance premiums if they can get insurance at all um this might just be a hypothetical but it's all already the reality for thousands of Floridians and millions across the country um I am uh looking forward to a lot of bipartisanship on this committee though um in terms
▶ 0:25:47of many different things the uh chair and I met we talked a lot about housing and homeowners insurance and a lot of different issues that matters to everybody um up here on the dis um the last I want to talk about real quick is a campaign promise that we're going to work at keeping track of on the campaign Trail president Trump promised that quote under my Administration we will be slashing energy and electricity prices by half within 12 months and at maximum 18 months end quote it's a pretty hefty promise um
▶ 0:26:17it seems unlikely but um we're going to be counting um to make sure that we can hold the president accountable to this campaign promise um because we would love to see um energy costs for people at home go down and it's so important that people understand that just because the price of energy and electricity is going down doesn't guarantee that those savings will be passed along to um uh consumers um and working families and so we'll be keeping track of that um throughout the year we got 509
▶ 0:26:47days left and we'll we'll see how that goes um the solution to how we can lower costs and protect our planet is right in front of our faces it's clean renewable energy um but I'm here to talk about the future and what we can accomplish so thank you and I yield back thank you ranking member Frost I'm excited to introduced our distinguished panel of witnesses today I'd like to First welcome Alex Epstein who is an author as well as the president and founder of a think tank called Center for industrial progress next we have
▶ 0:27:17Mandy gunara who is also an author and previously served as a chief of staff at the US Environmental Protection Agency during the first Trump Administration and next we have Alex hergot who is the founder and president of the permitting Institute Alex previously served on the White House Council for Environmental Quality the federal permitting Improvement steering Council and in multiple roles on Capitol Hill lastly we have Dr Rachel Cletus who serves as the policy director within the
▶ 0:27:47climate and energy program at the union of concerned scientists I want to thank each and every one of our Witnesses for being here today and I look forward to hearing your testimony pursuant to rule 9g the witnesses will stand and raise their right hand do you solemnly swear to affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God let the record
▶ 0:28:18show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative all right I'm going to recognize you now for your opening statements we appreciate you being here today and let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statement and it will appear in the full in the record please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes as a reminder please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on I think you all know how to do that um and the when it comes to the lights um after four minutes the light will turn yellow when the red light comes
▶ 0:28:48on it's time to wrap up your conversation I now recognize Mr Epstein for his opening statement thank you um America's in an elect electricity crisis so shortages are now routine throughout the US and um if we don't start increasing reliable generation very quickly our grid will get crushed especially by the demands of of AI uh the first step in solving the crisis is to understand it and at root our electricity crisis is very simple
▶ 0:29:18we are artificially restricting the supply of reliable electricity and we are artificially increasing the demand for Reliable electricity so let's start off with artificially restricting the supply uh the government does this in Three core Ways by by destroying reliable power plants by delaying them and by defunding them and there are five very specific policies that need to be changed in this regard so one is the decriminalization of nuclear it needs to be decriminalized so in the 70s we had Clean
▶ 0:29:48safe nuclear power become affordable and it quickly grew to about 20% of American power and it was still in its early stages so it had the potential to become far more affordable and plentiful but we had crushing irrational regulation that made nuclear expensive or even impossible to build so we need Congress and the administration to unleash nuclear energy from these irrational pseudoscientific regulations and in my testimony I have dozens of these things but I'll just give you some examples for each policy and for nuclear the most important thing is the NRC
▶ 0:30:19hopefully with the help of Congress needs to reject What's called the linear no threshold model of danger which is a totally pseudo scientific model that falsely assumes that there is no safe dose of radiation when there absolutely is and it needs to replace it with a scientific what's called threshold based model so this will remove the number one barrier to safe and affordable nuclear energy in America so unleashing nuclear is crucial but it is a medium to longterm solution the thing we need to do most urgently is to stop the policies that are destroying
▶ 0:30:49delaying and defunding the fossil fuel power plants that are only means of getting reliable electricity on a large scale we're hearing that you know they're you can replace them with unreliable solar and wind feel free to ask me about that but that is proven to be very false in practice uh so we have four shutdowns of fossil fuel plants um the EPA keeps passing rules others do this but the EPA in particular keeps passing rules that shut down coal plants and prevent new natural gas plants and fundamentally what EPA needs to do properly is cost benefit analysis
▶ 0:31:20including when it's doing policies that attack our grid it needs to recognize that shutting down the Grid or ruining the grid has a near infinite cost and it's not doing that its calculations number one concrete thing is it needs to resin the ghd standards for power plants which effectively ban existing coal plants and prevent new gas plants in a world where we have much more demand so it's just a totally insane uh policy um number three is onerous permitting policies and I know one of the witnesses is focusing on that so I'll just say a little bit
▶ 0:31:50uh about that because we're we're shutting down and preventing fossil fuel power plants we're also delaying them by having all these required Ms to our already owner is permitting process so things like making each power plant this relates to the social cost of carbon which I think is is intellectually a scam so I'm happy to talk about that um but you make each little Power Plant say what are your ghg emissions and it's totally ridiculous because it makes no difference globally and yet you're delaying things for years on the basis of this so we need to get rid of that uh
▶ 0:32:20we need to severely reform NEPA uh many other things in my written testimony uh number four and this relates to this issue of defunding reliable reliable power plants we need to have Market rules that that um value reliability right now we have Market rules that devalue liability so we have what the government does is with electricity markets they're not free markets they're these constructs that the government creates and they have this crazy feature which is they have no price penalty for unreliability which no other Market has and so what
▶ 0:32:50this does is this allows unreliable solar and wind to take money away from reliable plants so we need to reform that I have some ideas about that in my written testimony um and on top of that we need to get rid of these subsidies for unreliable power so not only do we not have a price penalty but on top of that we actually reward unreliable Power by giving them special subsidies so we we're actually paying extra for unreliable power it's just totally insane and it's what part of the reason why we have a crisis
▶ 0:33:21so we need to get rid of those subsidies so we need to get rid of I believe all the IRA subsidies but in particular what are called the clean electricity ones that dramatically favor unreliable solar and wind those are the most deadly ones that Congress needs to eliminate immediately whether it's through reconciliation or something else and then finally on top of all this restriction of the supply we're artificially increasing demand through forced electrification so things like forced EVS forced heat pumps again when we have a shortage of supply and we have a lot of organic demand from AI it is absolutely insane and unconscionable
▶ 0:33:51to mandate new demand from EVs and from heat pumps that people don't want and aren't willing to pay for on a free market um so as I said at the outset our crisis is simple we are artificially restricting Supply we're artificially increasing demand the solution is fundamentally simple unleash Supply and forced electrification and forced demand in practice this requires a lot of very little steps so uh I have dozens of these in my testimony and very happy to be here and I'm grateful for the opportunity to
▶ 0:34:21help in any way I can because we want to go right now from electricity crisis to electricity abundance and we can do it but it's going to take some very dramatic actions thank you thank you Mr Epstein I now recognize Miss gunis Sakara for her opening statement and I hope I got your name right you did did quite well um chairman burles ranking member Frost members of the subcommittee it really is wonderful to be here with y'all um I appreciate the invitation today to discuss the opportunity to create a future of energy abundance improved reliability
▶ 0:34:52and lower energy cost to the benefit of American families the subcommittee's efforts to to create this future of abundance it's critical to economic growth grid stability um as well as stabilizing everyday cost over the last four years Americans had to suffer the consequences of an Administration that sought to constrain traditional energy development mainly coal oil and natural gas that still provide 80% of our daily energy needs and force second rate Technologies onto the American people I've testified to this
▶ 0:35:22before and I think it's worth repeating that many of the policies put forward in the last Administration were fundamentally against American Energy development and they made the necessities of life a financial burden we must not continue these same policy mistakes for example from January 21 um throughout the the following four years American saw Energy prices Skyrocket from heating oil to electricity natural gas they all became untenable and as a result one in six American families
▶ 0:35:53have been behind on their utility bills for many many years the cost of average household roles Rose around $10,000 significantly straining budgets and low-income Americans also struggled um in in a especially critical ways in some cases they would choose to go without food medical care or prescriptions simply to make ins meet because of this rising cost of energy now these hardships among many others are why energy policy was a key focus of the recent election there is
▶ 0:36:23a critical need for Reliable affordable energy and we know how to deliver this need the United States better than any other country president Trump understands this as doe the majority of the American people that have entrusted him to once again deliver on the promise of American Energy dominance and support the America First policies necessary to actually achieve it this includes addressing aging infrastructure that led to inefficiencies and increased outages throughout the country Alex was talking about Epstein I should say got herot and Epstein
▶ 0:36:53um but he was talking about this while while this issue it certainly has received a lot of attention um especially in this house the policies aimed at addressing it have missed the mark rolling brown outs and blackouts have become much more common Across America in 2023 uh the the North American Electric reliability Corporation one of the agencies responsible for assessing reliability in this country listed quote energy policy as a leading risk to Electric reliability for the first time commonly cited were policies
▶ 0:37:23that shifted resources away from investing and upgrading existing infrastr structure and towards fruitless Net Zero goals and green new deal policies the most recent 2024 report reiterated these same issues characterizing many energy regions at quote high risk of resource adequacy shortfalls over the next decade now the good news I would say is that Congress can shift the energy policy um back towards what will actually work they can cut unnecessary red tape streamline the permitting
▶ 0:37:53process address a growing energy imbalance um that has been the result of over Reliance and force shift towards Renewables like wind and solar while fast-tracking the closure of Base load generation from coal natural gas and even even nuclear now in my written testimony I listed out a number of policy recommendations I would like to highlight just a few that I think are important to discuss um with regard to today's hearings one is accepting the reality that fossil fuels provide the bulk of energy that we use every day and that
▶ 0:38:24energy use is expected to grow for a variety of reasons instead of working to ban or constrain their use we should support efforts to make them cleaner and more efficient not shut them down also protect the foundation of the grid what I'm referring to is ensuring base load energy which is the most important in terms of stabilization and cost um that that we protect those policy leaders must consider a way or I would suggest they consider ways to account for the value of Bas load energy especially with on-site fuel
▶ 0:38:54storage that can withstand supply chain disruptions we we know are inevitable in this space at some point also ensure that grid reliability or resiliency standards are technology NE neutral so grid operators and Engineers have the flexibility to plan for and respond to Major swings in demand that again we know are inevitable in this space um establishing balanced environmental standards there's a lot of work already ongoing at the US EPA but ensuring that standards are based on proven not prospective timelines
▶ 0:39:24they take cost in consideration and have flexible time lines for compliance also I think this is really important and something that's often overlooked prioritizing mining in America incentivized domestic manufacturing of all Energy Technologies and the domestic mining of minerals that go into these Technologies I think approving the twin Metals mind in in northeastern Minnesota would be a very important and effective good first step also being open to new Innovative Technologies one that I talk a lot about um is the role of Bitcoin miners in
▶ 0:39:54stabilizing grids there's a lot of opportunities and new Innovations and considering those would be very important again I thank you for your attention to this important policy I appreciate the opportunity to be here and I look forward to your questions thank you Miss goodness aara I now recognize Mr hergot for his opening statement good morning chairman burlson breaking member Frost my name is Alex hergot and I'm president of the permit Institute since 2021 TPI has operated as a nonpartisan nonprofit trade Association
▶ 0:40:25our members and partners constitute the largest develop ERS in the United States who all collectively support the common goal of accelerating infrastructure Improvement across all sectors conventional renewable energy Transportation water pipelines man mining manufacturing ports water Broadband we believe the uncertainties of election cycles divis of Permitting policy battles and the priorization of infrastructure sectors and energy sources are largely unnecessary distractions these distractions put hundreds of billions of dollars in current private sector investment at constant risk of lengthly delays and project abandonment driving
▶ 0:40:55up energy and household good costs and timately weakening our Global competitiveness this situation is unsustainable for all Americans regardless of political affiliation we are there's hundreds of billions of private sector that uh investment that remains on the sidelines and and Mayors and governors who are committing billions of taxpayer Revenue 20 years out in the future the Inconvenient Truth is that for nearly a decade congress's legislative efforts to address this problem have fallen short opponents of more aggressive changes to permitting laws
▶ 0:41:25often fail to recognize that every project that disturbs the Earth impacts habitats or Alters Landscapes creates unavoidable interactions with nature doesn't matter if it's offshore wind transmission wind solar hydrogen it all falls under the same 60 environmental laws that we can't get out of our own way on these interactions trigger hundreds of reviews and raws regulations governing infrasture permits at the federal state and local levels over the last decade Congress has reached consensus on various process reforms aimed at achieving greater coordination and efficiency but has left
▶ 0:41:55untouched the statutory provision some over 100 years old these temporary fixes fail to address the underlying issues one of the major issues is transparency in 20125 President Biden's Council of Environmental Quality released a report claiming it reduce the median time for agencies to complete environmental review statements from 3.1 to 2.4 years the administration touted that this is a 23% improvement over Trump's first term however this is just not accurate my members must have missed the memo on that because they are the problem is getting worse not
▶ 0:42:26better typically TPI refrains from engaging in debates about the appropriate size and scope of federal infrastructure initiatives however given the trillions and unprecedented debt spending that have already been incurred obligating future generations of American taxpayers to rebuild our infrastructure only to rebuild it again with their own money 30 40 years from now not addressing permanent amounts to malpractice our broken system allows agencies to set on applications for years and decades in case with no certainty of eventual project approval or any response at all TPI does not claim
▶ 0:42:56that Federal AGC genes owe project developers yes but we owe them an answer in an appropriate amount of time once in the process uh developers even today find themselves in the dark uncertain of where their project stand along the concurrent permitting Pathways with various federal agencies over the past several years some federal agencies have developed new informal and formal Gardens partly due the requirements for 2-year average timelines these policies frontload biological cultural and historical survey requirements before the formal review process begins pushing the official starting point even further
▶ 0:43:26into the future see my comments earlier about cqs manipulation of the statistical relevance of the data even with the recent Federal funding more than 95% of major US investments in energy are entirely supported by the private sector infrastructure investors require predictability yet they are often treated as adversaries and conflict with Federal Regulators rather than Partners in rebuilding the nation we can't get out of our own way without a systematic shift in how we address permitting in the United States federal and state courts will increasingly
▶ 0:43:56take on the role of interpreting appropriate application of administrative and procedural roles and rendering science-based decisions on behalf of the agencies this cannot be the way forward um Congress must address both permitting process reform and litigation reform while necessary litigation reform is necessary without the underlying permitting reform we are only addressing the symptom and not the root cause despite a bipartisan desire to tackle these existential issues pressure from vocal stakeholders on
▶ 0:44:26both sides and a political tendency to avoid risk perpetuates the status quo leaving lawmakers searching for superficial fixes with a load growth that for the last 20 years has been 1% year-over-year and is about to jump to 20% there is going to be plenty of blame going around on in the house and the Senate the blame is going to metastasize yet at the very core of it is the issue that we can fix now before the issue becomes untenable both Republicans and Democrats support large scale energy projects including transmission wind natural gas solar critical minerals Hydro cardum capture and hydrogen
▶ 0:44:57energy shortages price and stability and Supply constraints and increased construction cost contribute to the human environmental and financial cost of these delays with each passing month the window for Solutions continues to to shrink and the cost of living in America Rises despite these challenges I'm optimistic that we can make progress this year and the years to come there are glimmers of Hope as the proverbial strange bed followers find common cause before looking at the actions as president Trump and the executive orders as something that is to be scoffed at we must look at the fact that we need to break down the system and change the Paradigm
▶ 0:45:27and rebuild it in a rational way in the way in which the real world actually works not relying on laws that were written more than 100 years ago many 30 years before the internet to govern the way that we build infrastructure and put billions and billions uh into a system that that doesn't serve American purposes a project development cycle of 7 to 10 years is simpling too long by working together we can advance perent reforms to build a 21st century infrastructure that safeguards communities protects the cultural resources and creates jobs and brings prosperity to every corner
▶ 0:45:57of America thank you and I look forward to questions thank you I now recognize Dr Cletus for her opening statement good morning thank you so much chairman Burleson ranking member Frost and members of the subcommittee for holding this hearing my name is Rachel Cletus I'm the policy director for the climate and energy program at the union of concerned scientists we're a nonpartisan science advocacy organization um I want to leave you with three things today one is that
▶ 0:46:27uh our transition of our Electric System to one that's modernized more flexible with more Renewables and storage is the best way to protect consumer costs as well as Safeguard Health make sure that we're competitive on the global stage and that we're innovating as we go along there are tremendous economic and health benefits from this transition number two doubling down on fossil fuels is harmful it's taking us in exactly the wrong direction and actually uh there is ample evidence that
▶ 0:46:57natural gas price volatility is one of the factors driving increased electricity prices as well as reliability concerns in the power grid and number three in 2025 we should not ask any American to choose between their health and prosperity we can have both and we should have both and here's how we can do it uh ramping up renewable energy Energy Efficiency and storage investing in a modernized more resilient electric grid will help cut power bills they'll boost business opportunities and
▶ 0:47:27improve Public Health meanwhile if we double down on fossil fuels all we're doing is serving to uh promote the profits of fossil fuel companies at the expense of the American public renewable energy is now the dominant source of New Power Generation uh capacity because frankly in many parts of the country it's the cheapest source and we can bring it online quickly last year Renewables and battery storage accounted for 94% of all new large- scale capacity with solar and battery storage leading the charge in 2025 and 2026 solar generation
▶ 0:47:58uh is uh we're going to get about 25% of our electricity generation from Renewables and solar generation is expected to jump 45% between 2024 and 2026 the inflation reduction Act and the infrastructure investment and jobs act provide critical funding to accelerate this clean energy transition and it's benefiting communities across the country in red States and blue States it's helping expand access to clean affordable Energy building domestic Manufacturing and Supply chains creating
▶ 0:48:28good paying jobs and helping limit pollution from fossil fuels in the last year our us investments in clean Technologies reached 272 billion that's crucial to keeping our businesses competitive in a world where Greeno products are increasingly in demand the current administration's actions to claw back or freeze this funding is frankly unfathomable it is creating a disruption and Market uncertainty for businesses that are trying to lean into opportunities right now it's going to seed leadership onch technology advancement it's going
▶ 0:48:58to cut jobs and ultimately it's going to harm electric reliability and increase energy costs trying to boost fossil fuels and turn back the clock that's the exact opposite direction we are a nation that Embraces modernizing We're a nation that Embraces Innovation let's embrace the future and not get stuck in the past a rush to further expand LG exports is only going to exacerbate price risk to Consumers recent extreme weather events underscore that gas power plants face sign significant reliability concerns with many
▶ 0:49:28catastrophic failures occurring during winter worsening heat waves wildfires drought are also putting pressure on the grid and what we find is that hybrid systems that couple renewable energy with storage provide significant grid reliability services for example during the heat domes that we saw last year and the year before in the Texas grid it was solar Plus Storage that helped save the day the power sector does need to plan for increased demand but the way to do that is manage and plan the demand growth to line with expansion of clean energy we
▶ 0:49:59already are at record fossil fuel highs whether it comes to oil or LG there is no problem in terms of expansion of fossil fuels unfortunately even as the climate crisis worsens what we need to do is unleash clean Renewable Power the transmission to go with it and Energy Efficiency the grid is desperately in need of upgrades and expansion it's uh got a C minus grade from the American Society of civil engineers during extreme weather and climate events we've seen power outages that affect Millions
▶ 0:50:29cost billions of dollars in Damages we do need to quickly expand investments in a resilient transmission system built for the future climate conditions that scientists are telling us are going to worsen we can integrate higher levels of Renewables provide reliability benefits reduce bills reduce pollution modernizing the power sector also provides opportunities to clean up air water and soil pollution that's a critical factor that communities around the country are depending on us for especially communities that are overburdened by
▶ 0:50:59pollution today we need to Target investments in those communities so that they too can reap the benefits of a more affordable cleaner modern Energy System burning fossil fuels is the primary driver of human cause climate change which is already exerting a fearsome toll around the country we can sharply cut heat trapping emissions while delivering billions of dollars in Consumer Energy savings and public health benefits so modernizing and cleaning up the power sector is vital for the economy for us to compete globally and it's the best way to protect reliability
▶ 0:51:30in consumers pocketbooks thank you thank you I now recognize myself for five minutes questions M Mr Epstein in my home state of Missouri we rely predominantly on coal for electricity generation uh the previous administration's proposed regulation on power plants would lead to the premature closure of fossil fuel fired power plants across the country including Missouri and I and I'll tell you I had a sobering moment during winter storm Yuri
▶ 0:52:00um when we had two weeks of negative you know double digit temperature and you're hearing about reliability problems they warning of brown outs they were warning that they may have to shut down power and our our the heating of our own personal home was barely keeping up and and I'll tell you looking out the window of my backyard and seeing that we had a Cal Fire power plant that was going I was thankful to God that we had that at that time unfortunately some people died in winter storm Yuri
▶ 0:52:31150 people um so this is this is very sobering it's very real my question is how should Congress and the new Trump Administration address misguided regulations to ensure that Americans in every District have access to Affordable reliable electricity supplies and never face having to freeze to death in modern America I mean first of all they really and and in particular let's focus on EPA they really need to
▶ 0:53:01recognize what you're saying which is that a reliable grid is an existential thing for human life including human health I think you know we heard an example about like oh what if you put a natural gas plant and it's going to harm People's Health that's pseudoscience natural gas Burns incredibly cleanly but what does harm People's Health is not having a reliable natural gas plant imagine not having reliable natural gas in Florida not having coal in Missouri like these you know cold is the number one cause of climate related death despite people are afraid of warming
▶ 0:53:31like the EPA when it's doing cost benefit analyses which it it needs to do more of and Congress should make it do more of it needs to factor in the reliability of the grid as a crucial factor and one thing I know you and I have talked about is there should just be a pause on any kind of new action that potentially threatens the reliability of the grid until the electricity crisis is resolved because the electricity crisis is a Health crisis that far dwarfs any negative side effects of fossil fuels and with new power demands coming you know with you mentioned the AI
▶ 0:54:02data centers and all that what can we do now to prepare and to ramp up quickly I mean I was just sighing because I'm like listen to people like me 10 years ago I mean it's it's it's annoying because it was so obvious that shutting down reliable power plants in a world that well could need more reliable electricity was just a disaster so I think what you need to look at is what are the what are the near-term things you can do I think the the most near-term you thing you can do which I didn't cover
▶ 0:54:32in my testimony is you want to see how do we increase the already existing capacity of coal plants and natural gas plants which particularly with the coal plants is being drastically underutilized due to a lot of irrational emissions regulations like solar rather coal and gas have real capacity solar and wind have fake capacity it's not a capacity if you can go to near zero at any given time when the weather changes so you need to increase the utilization our real capacity and happy to share more details on how to do that thank you Miss gunis Sakara as the
▶ 0:55:02chief you know the former Chief of Staff of EPA you had a unique perspective on how federal agencies work or do not work um when thinking about the role of the Federal Government and how it has an encouraging economic growth how do the regulations stand in the way of that economic growth yeah I think what we saw in the last Administration was putting their thumb on the scale against traditional energy resources coal oil and natural gas gas that again uh provide the bulk of our daily energy needs and then also provide that important base load generation
▶ 0:55:32that I referenced earlier um when you have overregulation it increased costs it increased uh litigation opportunities and that equates to uncertainty throughout various industries that are necessary uh for us to live out our daily Modern Life so really pairing back uh various regulations that have either skewed from epa's actual Mission which is to protect the environment improve efficiencies not put certain businesses out of business um to get away from that to to comport with the law
▶ 0:56:02and ensure that there's stability and certainty going forward for those that want to make the Investments we need to meet this future this future growth in energy demand thank you and Mr hergot um what recommendations do you have to address the problems in the current permitting system and what's at stake if we do not so as an example as much as as much as the IRA is touted as a marquee accomplishment of the last Administration there were 19 new regulations 45 gigs of wind solar transmission and others that would have provided for the green energy Revolution
▶ 0:56:32are either abandoned or will never get built so the reality is when capital is put at risk we remove the obstacles and build it well within a year we can do that countries far greener than ours in Europe do it in half the time that we do it without any compromises to environmental or social or cultureal protections we are in the Modern Age We Are relying on 50-year-old rules on how we build infrastructure and if we continue on this pathway of not realizing that there is a balance between human
▶ 0:57:03activity and the natural environment if you want a car you're going to need a road if you want to turn on your lights you're going to need a transmission line if you're not going to build the renewable energy you need to rely on the other stuff at some point there is a there's it electricity is not a public good at some point it has to get built and the government is not going to build it the private sector is we got to remove the hurdles and we also need to look at opportunities to potentially Outsource uh engineering and architect firms to to uh to address the significant uh the backload of projects that are moving through the
▶ 0:57:33system um with a with a federal Workforce that is not not capable um to deal with the complexity of the projects of today thank you I now recognize Mr Frost for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chair uh Mr herga um how can home solar and home uh energy storage contribute to Americans energy needs and grid resilience so it it can play a role as an inter source to offset offset the cost of energy or to provide at some points a payback of distributed generation back to the utilities
▶ 0:58:03but on average but on average um it is not going to make u a dramatic difference in particular with the 20% load growth that we're going to see year-over-year um it almost becomes uh a least economical way to put the solar panels on a house with the transmission that would then have to reverse back into the utility there's a far better way to address uh if if the goal is for zero carbon emission projects there is a far more efficient way to do it we have to stop pretending that these things that are of a smaller of of a
▶ 0:58:33smaller scale are somehow going to address a larger problem and how can energy resilience programs for single family homes contribute to people keeping uh their lights on uh during extreme weather this is you know this is a big deal in the State of Florida as well and part of the reason why it's a pretty bipar an issue we've seen on home rooftop solar and people wanting to become energy independent within their own home so uh the cost of energy is often times and the cost of these 20 to 30% it takes to build a project is often passed down to the rate payer
▶ 0:59:03it becomes this intangible cost that is spread over many rate payers so we don't see that the kilowatt per hour goes up a half a cent a year half or half a cent a month the the because we're not transparent about how that project actually gets to from generation to the house um the the the the cost increase is because you know to give you an example there were there were five to six large scale renewable transmission lines uh that were almost permitted at the end of the Trump Administration and I can carinal Hickory Creek 10 West and many others that still took another
▶ 0:59:343 to four years if we can't build the infrastructure if we can't build the new KV lines to get from 115 to 230 to 530 that actually reduce cost and efficiencies then what are we doing here um Dr Cletus um as the only um economists among our Witnesses today how confident are you in Trump's promise to cut energy costs in half in in the next 500 days if that promise is predicated on what we've seen in the last month um I fear not at all um
▶ 1:00:04that promise will not be met and unfortunately in the interim many people around the country are going to suffer from higher energy costs lost jobs businesses are suffering from uncertainty in the marketplace this is actually uh really taking the economy in the wrong direction so I hope there will be a reversal of some of those early day announcements yeah and I want to get an idea of how abandoning um our clean energy future will actually mean higher bills for folks I mean number one there's nothing worse in for your bank account then
▶ 1:00:34completely losing your job um and a lot of these executive orders are aiming to abandon clean energy investments in projects I actually you know agree with what Mr hergot said as well in in terms of if we've already made this investment to begin something when we abandon it you know we're I would say we're misusing a lot of taxpayer money um and we're not going the direction we need to go into um but abandoning these clean energy investment means that Americans are going to lose their jobs and I've spoken with trades really around the country but especially in
▶ 1:01:04my district people who are at work right now because of these Investments we've made um how could that harm America's clean energy leadership moving forward the reality is we are on the cusp of what could have been an incredible Evolution and we can still capture that bright future if we continue to make these Investments the inflation reduction act has only been a couple of years into implementation and already we've seen hundreds of thousands of jobs so many manufacturing facilities in the Southeast all around the
▶ 1:01:34country that is an incredible opportunity for the communities that live there and that's why there's bipartisan support we've seen letters sent to the speaker from the Republican side as well saying please don't stop these Investments because they're helping Drive jobs and Innovation when we look at the world of the future it's moving towards a clean energy world the US should be at the Forefront of that technological Revolution let's not cut ourselves out what states would be mostly impacted well if we look at the states that are getting the Investments right now they're places like Alabama they
▶ 1:02:04places like Kentucky they're places in the Southeast that are getting they're getting on a percentage basis a much greater amount of these Investments they've built battery plants they've built EV manufacturing um so these clean energy jobs are everywhere in the country but some parts of the country had been lagging and they're now getting a chance to take advantage of this incredible opportunity yeah I I app I appreciate you bringing that up I mean and and globally you know in terms of being a global player we get most of our energy from oil and part of the purpose of moving
▶ 1:02:34towards this new green economy and clean energy of course is cutting emissions because of the climate crisis but also having more diversity in our energy mix which is important for resiliency as well um and lowering costs so thank you so much I yield back thank you thank you I now recognize the gentleman from Alabama Mr Palmer for five minutes in regard to the cost of U Renewables versus hydrocarbon resources I just want to point out that The Economist magazine reported
▶ 1:03:05that between 2022 and February 2023 they estimate there are 140,000 plus excess Wonder deaths because these people just couldn't afford to adequately Heat their homes and as Mr epen pointed out there are more people die from cold related illnesses than than from um heat so while there are people out there that that are trying to save the planet um with misguided energy
▶ 1:03:35policies that undermine our national security China is working every day to dominate the planet Mr Epstein can we compete with China in the development and utilization of artificial intelligence with Renewable only I mean with Renewable Power only we can't compete with Ghana would you agree that we are in a technology arms race with China for dominance and Ai and Quantum Computing yeah I mean
▶ 1:04:05it's so it's just so scary because um you know I was writing my book fossil future in like 2020 and this was just so clearly going to happen so I had a section on AI you know way back then and it's just this is this is clearly an existential thing I mean I use these Technologies so much in my own work already and they're just so driven by the ability to have OnDemand uh cheap power to the point where Larry thinkink who was the leader of this disastrous Net Zero movement has publicly said
▶ 1:04:36at the world economic Forum that we need more natural gas and that solar and wind won't cut it even that guy is admitting this so we need to wake up and live in reality and it's a scary reality if we don't dramatically change our practices people should read um the book Henry ker and Eric Schmidt and I forget the other guy's name wrote Genesis about the the race for dominance and artificial intelligence and um the the bottom line is is that it is going to require enormous
▶ 1:05:06amounts of power and and while China has is building some Renewables they're really focused on um hydrocarbon coal-based power generation they're building it at at an unprecedented pace and they're also advancing in small modular nuclear uh where we're not and uh this is the existential threat to to the United States it's also a threat to our economy uh Miss Gana Sara uh would you agree that yeah I would and
▶ 1:05:36I say I would say one of the biggest issues with China's approach versus the US is the coal plants that they building aren't using pollution control equipment that our coal facilities have been using for decades so uh while we stand by and sign pieces of paper with them pretending like they're going to do something to lower their emissions they continue on this trajectory build these PL plants that actually uh ship particulate matter and things along those lines lines over to places like California that continue to struggle with meeting air quality standards from the early 2000s
▶ 1:06:06as a result yeah I I worked for two International engineering companies I worked for combustion engineering and their environmental systems and we were leading and uh making major advances in in Air Pollution Control uh for Co fired for natural gas uh but China's not the least bit confused about um what the objective is and it's uh I I think ensuring that we maximize uh our access uh
▶ 1:06:36access to high energy density and that's what we're talking about when we're talking about hydrocarbon and and and nuclear um resources for power generation is not just an economic issue it's a national security issue and uh would you agree with that yeah yeah I mean so if you look at National Security what does National Security depend on it depends above all on having an extremely robust economy that can produce weapons when
▶ 1:07:07necessary that can keep people alive when necessary that's number one the other the number two is it relies on Mobility World War I and World War II were non-coincident won by the side with the most oil and perhaps number three is going to be intelligence or augmented intelligence so all of these things totally depend on unleashing energy and I believe in all forms of energy being free to compete but the idea that we're going to restrict fossil fuels and subsidize things that can't compete on their own and that's going to be anything but a disaster has been proven false the world is waking up to
▶ 1:07:37this yeah we just everyone here needs to wake up to this today like the arguments I'm hearing like I heard these in you know 2013 when people were claiming Germany was going to be a success story yeah I was right back then but it's it's obvious now well I had a conversation with Eric Smidt about his book and and he's gone the same direction that Mr Frank went he now his full blown full uh Speed Ahead on hydrocarbon and and nuclear the bottom line is that our Nations economic and National
▶ 1:08:07Security are inseparably linked and dependent on reliable affordable sufficient power to meet our needs and to compete with China I yield back and now recognize the gentleman from California Mr cona for five minutes thank you Mr chair uh Miss G car welcome back to the committee uh you're the author of the book you all are fired uh correct y All Fired you all fired I won't get the pronunciation perfect uh the U and when you testified before
▶ 1:08:37our committee last September you said if I remember you supported project 2025 calls to fire thousands of federal workers correct yes and it looks like your wishes are coming true correct uh yeah certainly some of the policies that I've suggested in the past seem to uh be be being implemented in this Administration do you support the firing of the 2400 Veteran Affairs employees many of whom were doctors nurses and Veterans themselves that have taken place
▶ 1:09:08again I think that if people are in roles that don't substantially contribute to fulfilling the mission of the stated agency that from a taxpayer resource perspective those jobs should not continue to exist uh I understand your general view but in terms of the specifics I'm sure you follow them do you support the firings that have taken place at the Veterans Affairs Department I think the The View that many of the firings that have have taken place are from what I just described that it's looking at roles and are they meaningfully contributing
▶ 1:09:38to fulfilling the agency's relative Mission and if they aren't uh then so so you support them or I'm just trying to understand yeah I do I support I support the structural changes of this Administration I think it's long overdue um it's actually a breath of several of the veterans who who have been fired said that they were doing incredibly meaningful work help helping veterans uh who are struggling with depression one of them yesterday talked about how he was in Iraq in Afghanistan I just want to make sure I understand your position so there 2400 veterans who have
▶ 1:10:08been fired uh you support that what do you think of firing the agriculture Department workers who are trying to combat the bird flu crisis uh do you support that or do you think that was a mistake again I think all of these structural changes are long overdue there are many roles throughout the federal government that are duplicative and don't meaningfully Advance related missions I appreciate the general points and I even recommend people read your book because I think it's being implemented uh but do you support the specifics of the firings
▶ 1:10:38of people who were involved with the bird flu or or not yeah I I entrust uh or I trust the people who are making these decisions support looking at structural how about the 350 workers who uh at the department and of energy were safeguarded with uh were tasked with safeguarding our nuclear weapons do you support those firings or do you think uh those were unnecessary or do you believe those were redundant workers I think in many of those instances those are redundant roles and there are still people
▶ 1:11:08that remain um fulfilling those key initiatives in every single agency whether it's uh protecting veterans whether it's ensuring the the sa you know I appreciate your two things about you one your straightforwardness about what you testify two your willingness to testify before Congress I've said that you know musk and do should come and be a straightforward because you're basically telling the American public that you support the firing of the 2400 people at the veterans department you support the firing of 350 employees who are there to protect bird flu
▶ 1:11:39you see many of them as redundant you support the firing of the people there to protect our uh nuclear safety because you see them as redundant and at least you're being transparent now do you know if the employees who have been fired so far the federal employees do you have an estimate of how many of them are veterans I'm not trying to trick you I can give you the number I I don't know the number off hand 30 30% of the federal employees who have been fired are veterans do you think we should uh give special consideration not to be firing veterans or do you think if someone's a veteran it shouldn't matter
▶ 1:12:09I think that uh there's I mean for for anyone in the federal government that has lost their job uh that there are lots of opportunities in the private sector do you think there should be special protection or special consideration not to fire veterans people who' have gone to Iraq Afghanistan worn our uniform or or do you think they should be treated like anyone else I think that um anyone working in the federal government should be treated equally again it's I think it's well we just disagree my view is that if someone has been a veteran who served our uniform I think that just like we have certain programs to help
▶ 1:12:40them get jobs I think we should take a extra care to make sure that we're not firing them have you heard of the Valentine's Day Massacre I have but please remind me that that is what well that's what the federal employees including the veterans are calling it many of them got a note on Valentine's Day that they were going to be fired on Valentine's Day without any uh prior communication if that happened do you agree that that's the wrong way just from a human level of firing people just giving them a note on Valentine's Day without any conversation I think there's a lot of people on Valentine's
▶ 1:13:10Day that struggle to make in meet because this Administration and the last or the last Administration overly focused on hiring and expanding the federal people getting a note on Valentine's Day all of them telling them that they're fired I I I think when it makes sense for them to get some notes no I mean I think there's all sorts of ways to develop soab stories for people who have been um other the receiving in of overgrown over bloated federal government but you don't think about all of the rest of the people in the country uh that have been struggling to make ends meet because when you overemphasize
▶ 1:13:40the growth of the federal government you deterred the development and opportunities in the private sector would encourage you to listen to some of these stories because they were doing incredibly important work they were high performers they were fired without any notice and I'm uh asking for consideration for president Trump to reinstate them especially our veterans thank you um Mr chair yes I'd like to seek unanimous consent to enter two things into the record one is a Yale uh article and study that says how China became the world's leader on renewable
▶ 1:14:11energy the other one is a New York Times article entitled why Trump's clean energy roll backs could derail a factory boom both articles be submitted without without objection I now recognize the the lady from Colorado Miss bobert for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and um Miss G Sakara I just want to commend you so much thank you for giving such straightforward answers uh I was not hearing of the outcries from my colleagues on the other side of the aisle when our Keystone XL pipeliners were
▶ 1:14:41laid off when my district was regulated into poverty when oil and gas was pushed out by overregulation and green new deal policies um I did not hear the outcry for uh veterans or service members who were uh discharged from the military because they refused to take a uh a a a trial vaccine um that was not um that we didn't know the effects of uh I didn't hear the outcry for small businesses um that went under and were not able to reopen many many many
▶ 1:15:11many people lost their jobs um over poor regulations and over regulations so thank you so much for giving clear and concise answers we do have an overgrown and Bloated government and doge is um absolutely um exposing that and all of the waste fraud or theft and abuse that is taking uh place with our American tax dollars so sorry I don't have a question for you but I wanted to just say thank you so much for being here and for your expertise uh M Mr Epstein um we we've heard a lot today
▶ 1:15:41about um bird flu that obviously that was under Joe Biden and his decision we've heard about the green New Deal um we we heard that America uh needs to lead on green new energy um really this green new scam and uh we kind of can't when we're dependent on China and we're getting you know our solar panels from them uh and their using Coal Fired energy uh to create uh their own energy and we are kind of left suffering um Mr Epstein
▶ 1:16:12Epstein sorry um are there any myths that you've heard today in in this hearing room that you would like to address uh address such as um frankly some of some of the BS that I've heard from um colleagues here and even one of our Witnesses um so yeah let me just take you know what I think is the overall myth is this idea that we need to impose dramatic restrictions on fossil fuels and give dramatic
▶ 1:16:42subsidies to unreliable solar and wind as well as other uncompetitive forms of energy in order to prevent a climate crisis slash compete with China That's sort of the overall thing so just to break it down um quickly I don't know why we haven't learned from every other industry that's ever existed but the way you get the best cheapest most reliable product is you leave people free to compete you don't restrict the things that work and subsidize the things that don't but we're magically pretending an energy that somehow works I mean imagine you outlawed iPhone and
▶ 1:17:12Android and just let random people with unreliable phones produce phones and you subsidize them it it makes no sense the laws of Economics apply here just as well as anywhere else in terms of averting an alleged climate crisis I've documented human beings are so resilient from climate that we are safer than ever from climate our resilience is rooted in fossil fuels so if we restrict fossil fuels we make ourselves less resilient we we will reverse what's been an incredible decline in climate related disaster deaths so one is there is no climate crisis that to avert but then number two
▶ 1:17:43is by screwing up American Energy you do nothing to reduce Global emissions because the emissions just get offshore to China and more competitive economies which brings me to China and do we need to compete with them in Renewables and ranking member Frost mentioned a certain quote unquote uh study from from Yale about this and the issue is China is the leader is becoming the leader in fossil fuels and one of their leading uses of fossil fuels is to produce uh overpriced unreliable energy infrastructure that they sell to us and that we
▶ 1:18:13are incredibly dependent um upon so the whole thing is wrong and what we need is very simple we just need energy Freedom so we need the freedom for all uh forms of energy to compete I think somebody uh mention we need technology neutral standards for our grid that's very important we don't want to favor or disfavor any form of energy but if we do that given current economic realities that's going to mean a lot of fossil fuels here and around the world and overall that's really good for people because a world with a lot of energy can handle any climate but a world without much energy can't
▶ 1:18:43handle any climate or really anything else thank you Mr epin I want to give you um the last 30 seconds or so uh to talk about the EPA as you mentioned in your testimony um just the things that they need to resend and do better uh with in in this new Administration we have administ administrator Lee zeldon now at the EPA and I think he'll do a fantastic job um and hopefully he's he's read your books the moral case of fossil fuel fossil future hopefully he has your Alex AI app um I think that's a great tool for
▶ 1:19:13energy information and it's actually reliable um kind of like the fossil fuel energy that we are discussing today uh so if you want to uh use these last seconds oh I used most yeah well it's unfortunately it's in my my testimony the quick things I would just say are we need to you need to be objective about the benefits of any of these restrictions which are generally overblown and you need to be very realistic about the costs which are usually underestimated and yeah check out Alex Epstein doai free to use for everyone and uh you could just use it dynamically and and learn a lot about this testimony topic thank you
▶ 1:19:43thank you I yeld back Mr chair thank you I now recognize the Gent lady from Arizona Miss andari thank you Mr chair I'd like to thank our Witnesses for being here today I'm proud to represent Arizona's thirdd congressional district a community of families who have been hard hit very hard by the cost of rising energy at a time of rapidly increasing energy demand it's absolutely imperative that we bring down costs and deliver Economic Security for Americans however I want to be clear the cost of living crisis
▶ 1:20:13isn't happening because of some imaginary war on oil and gas the United States is already producing more oil and gas than ever more than any country in history instead of doubling down on fossil fuels we need to prioritize a transition to clean affordable americanmade energy unlike fossil fuels which we have seen in recent years are subject to volatile Global markets and price swings clean energy provides long-term stability and allows Working Families to adequately
▶ 1:20:44budget for energy costs there's been a lot of talk from my colleagues on the other side of the aisle about the need to protect an advance National Security the gravest existential threat to our National Security is climate change it's it's laughable frankly to hear you say that the climate crisis doesn't exist I like to agree with the 99% ask me a question and I'll explain no I I don't need to hear more explanation on on lies so um it's actually the US military establishment in the 1970s that first uh sounded the
▶ 1:21:14alarm on climate change and said that climate change is a threat multiplier to our national security we've also heard from you about um that we should not favor or not favor any type of energy and I do agree with that but I'm wondering why our current president has suspended new federal offshore wind saying we're not going to do the wind thing quote big ugly windmills they ruin your neighborhood so it's just the the concept of saying that we should not be going after any one form of energy while our president is doing the exact oppos I'm not the president I I don't
▶ 1:21:44agree with that policy so I'm talking about the the actions of this Administration so well that specific one I think was incorrect them sir I'm sorry I didn't ask that's thought you were addressing me so on the Phoenix City Council was proud to pass the city's ambitious climate action plan unanimously start one of the most ambitious Fleet transition plans in the country all with Republic and support these initiatives were made possible by legislations such as the inflation reduction act which delivered historic levels of investment in clean energy Arizona has gained over 18,000
▶ 1:22:14clean energy jobs and nearly 122 billion in private investment related to the IRA so with that I'd like to turn to my questions uh to Dr Cletus thank you again for being here um Dr Cletus are we seeing other states benefit from investment in clean energy and what are things that states can do to increase their potential for economic growth we're seeing the benefits of clean energy all across the country we've got more than three million clean energy jobs already and the inflation reduction act alone has created hundreds of thousands
▶ 1:22:44of jobs we've seen these benefits uh especially in the Southeast but in every state Nevada Kentucky Georgia um this Florida we we've seen an incredible growth in manufacturing and jobs in this country now the opportunity we have is to accelerate that transition give people even more access to clean energy we should not be prioritizing the interest of fossil fuel companies and their profits over the interest of the American consumers and the American people so doubling down on fossil fuels
▶ 1:23:14that only serves the fossil fuel industry so of course there spreading disinformation and misinformation about the climate science they've been obstructing action on climate change for decades now but their own scientists were the ones decades ago who said very clearly that burning fossil fuels will drive worsening climate change and we are living in that reality right now thank you so much I could not agree more um can you tell us a little bit more what would divestment or you know taking certain energy options off of the table mean for States
▶ 1:23:45like Arizona where 61% of energy jobs or clean energy jobs you know in States like Arizona it's a two-fold benefit because not only is it help helping deliver clean renewable energy it is also helping address some of the challenges we Face from extreme weather events like heat waves Arizona has suffered from incredible intense heat waves that have the clear Fingerprints of climate change on them and in those conditions solar Plus Storage is really delivering around the country also in Texas many states have seen
▶ 1:24:15this when you have these extreme pressures on the grid what can you bring online quickly and deliver reliably is not natural gas it is solar Plus Storage again and again the data show it and uh finally my colleagues across the aisle frequently claim that clean or renewable energy is less reliable than energy powered by fossil fuels despite numerous studies showing that fossil fuel fired plants are becoming increasingly unreliable Dr Cletus can you comment on the reliability of clean energy versus fossil fuels the clean energy
▶ 1:24:45flexible modern system that we're talking about right now is one where you couple Renewables with storage you build transmission so that you have a distributed grid you have the opportunity for both micro grids local generation as well as uh longdistance transmission which we should be building more of this is the flexible system of the future instead of getting stuck in this Antiquated notion of Base load meanwhile we have cold fired power plants that are retiring because of Market factors why do we want
▶ 1:25:15to put a thumb on the scale and leave consumers saddled with billions of dollars to keep these outdated polluting plants online and let's be very clear who's paying the cost costs we are and health costs those costs are not costs that companies are taking into account they're bring socialized to all of us the asthma the heart ailments the lung ailments the deaths from cancer that's the consequence of burning fossil fuels thank you so much I yield back G lady yields I recognize myself for five minutes for questioning
▶ 1:25:45um it's it's been clear through the the course of modern history that that economic Prosperity is direct ly related to the to the availability of of affordable abundant transportable energy product and a across the world where economic Prosperity moves forward built upon a Cornerstone of
▶ 1:26:16affordable reliable transportable abundant energy product then the the environment m is cleansed in a economically um enriched Community the air gets cleaner the water gets cleaner the land gets cleaner so if the if our goal is to have a a cleaner more stable
▶ 1:26:46environment for our planet then we embrace the the the supply of energy product that most clearly reflects those key principles of of as clean as possible but abundant and affordable and transportable so if energy product be comes out of the gate as unaffordable and not abundant
▶ 1:27:16and unreliable then it it doesn't meet the criteria so this is this is where my colleagues on both sides of the aisle have contention none of us none of us disagree with our responsibility to preserve our planet we mandate since the dawn of man to nurture and care for our planet and the creatures thereof and and we take this responsibility
▶ 1:27:47very seriously but I I would ask the young lady miss miss regarding the mission statement of the EPA you're a former employee of the EPA correct yes and it how would you describe in in a sentence what's the mission statement of the EPA to protect public health and the environment thank you very much so to protect the public health and the environment worldwide is is an aspiration but the mission statement of the
▶ 1:28:17Environmental Protection Agency is to protect the environment of the United States correct and who we we accept the role as the world's energy leader and both in consumption and production and technology that is shared with the so regarding permitting Mr harut would what would happen with if if permitting at the federal level was streamlined
▶ 1:28:48to allow for a more aggressive uh introduction of clean affordable reliable transportable energy product in in the United States and worldwide what would happen in in those communities so I just just make a to make a point uh and I know my press my friends in the Press know that I live in the numbers um more wind and solar was built under the Trump Administration than the entire Biden Administration the last three years of the Obama Administration we have to look at the facts all right the facts
▶ 1:29:18are not hyperbole more than 50% of Oklahoma my home state or my I'm from Arizona originally but I worked for senator inhoff who Mandy and I both worked who we missed greatly um was always a fan of let's let's make the Level Playing Field for everyone remove the obstacle respectfully I've I've been to Oklahoma I've tored that grid I'm familiar with it and I'm asking you what would happen if if the if Congress streamlines the permit and the executive branch streamlines the permitting process for for
▶ 1:29:49investors that are standing by to invest in C we would see a 20 to 30% reduction in Project cost an immediate reduction in the Futures Market that produce electricity prices we're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars am I correct yes and we we all concur that economic Prosperity is the Cornerstone of a clean environment so if this is our goal then worldwide then we should support the American Energy industry um Mr
▶ 1:30:19Epstein you referenced nuclear and and I'mma leave with this question question here as my time is expiring and and I hope you answer it you referenced nuclear in the 70s and how it was it was uh it was not allowed to to to emerge fully that that government restrictions sort of sort of stop the full emergence of of nuclear power and you I think you made an interesting point there you stated that that we are artificially
▶ 1:30:50restricting Supply while we're artificially increasing demand so if we if Congress were to allow the the full manifestation of the American Energy industry what would happen to the to to the supply of that energy product and therefore the expense of that energy product I mean if you truly unleash it and again I give a few dozen things in my written testimony and if people go to energy talking points.com we have
▶ 1:31:20like 110 new proposals 112 uh you know it would just be the greatest increase in prosperity I mean you might actually have a shot of for new electricity reducing the price by 50% but it really requires dramatic things with nuclear in particular that's really important I should say by the way the number one organization probably that ruined nuclear uh was the union of concerned scientists which we have a witness from today that they deserve a special I thank the gentlemen and my time has has long expired so of respect for my colleagues I'm going to close my
▶ 1:31:50questioning and I move to um the gentlemen Mr Min representative Min from California thank you sir thank you Mr chair and uh I see that we are on the oversight committee we're exploring oversight um that seems to be a topic we're largely ignoring but I will get back to that in a moment uh uh a lot of discussion around energy policy and climate change and and so I guess my question is um for each of
▶ 1:32:21you uh do you have a degree in science let's start with you Mr Epstein uh PhD Masters no believe it or not you can be a selftaught expert yes or no question sir uh it's not it's not quite a valid question car do you have a degree in science no uh Mr uh hergot are you a degree in science undergrad MBA or Master's no but I am a nerd okay how about yourself doctor uh I guess you are a scientist what's your what was your degree in economics social
▶ 1:32:51science sence you're not a climate scientist then not a climate scientist a social scientist okay interesting so I I am not a scientist either I I'm a lawyer uh I am self-taught as well uh but I work with a lot of scientists uh at UC Irvine I've talked to a lot of scientists around climate around oceans and our uh atmosphere and I I think there is clearly a consensus that the burning of fossil fuels by emitting carbon into our atmosphere is causing dramatic changes in our environment uh the science
▶ 1:33:21on this is fairly Undisputed at this point other than handful of people on the extremes uh I think every credible scientist agrees with this and we're seeing the effects of this right now extreme weather events 140 degree temperatures in India last year uh highest ever in recorded history uh and the thing is I think if we listen to the scientists I know scientists are a little out of style today uh that in a 100 years we're going to look back and say that the weather today the temperatures were uniquely cool and the weather patterns were uniquely benign uh and so I will just make
▶ 1:33:51an observation that I think we have a moral imperative to think about the future that we are creating for our children grandchildren and Beyond I will also say that um you know I know there's a lot to talk about economics here but that we should be thinking about the external costs uh negative externalities of burning fossil fuels uh that's something that we know is not factored into the cost of oil when we pay for gas at the gas pump we're not paying for the cost that these impose over time on our society and I I think these costs are conservatively
▶ 1:34:21estimated in the tens of trillions of dollars to our society but I want to take this back to the question oversight because last May uh Donald Trump uh famously held a meeting with oil Executives that was organized by uh the person that then became the Secretary of interior where he publicly stated that he would slash regulations on the oil industry if they donate one donated $1 billion to his campaign uh at the time my kids were asking me isn't this a bribe it looks like a bribe when somebody running for office uh promises
▶ 1:34:51to do something in exchange for contribution I said it does look like a bribe I don't know how to describe this uh the oil industry of course responded with hundreds of millions of dollars in donations both directly to Trump's campaign uh as well as through different super Pacs and other vehicles uh that were created by citizens united uh and now of course we have Congressional Republicans pushing forward an agenda uh to try to deregulate oil now I've had thousands of constituents call my office to say we need to stop this this is bribery this is the House Republicans pushing
▶ 1:35:21pay to playay policies I question to you and and I guess I'll direct this to uh Dr I'm sorry I missed your name it is uh Dr Dr clus Cletus uh what How would how am I supposed to respond to my kids how am I supposed to respond to my constituents who say that this is institutionalized bribery that there is no oversight happening right now uh of this carrying out of payto playay policies you know it's really disturbing to see the administration's appointees many of whom are directly connected to the fossil fuel industry or
▶ 1:35:52are climate science deny S as you said uh the science is nonpartisan it is universally accepted that human cause climate change is being driven by burning fossil fuels as an economist I can tell you it's already having a significant impact on the US economy you just need to look at the insurance crisis the pending crisis uh to real estate that's exposed to extreme weather and climate related events the labor productivity impacts of extreme heat waves the economic Fingerprints of climate change are also clear
▶ 1:36:22so in this context my time sorry to interrupt doctor uh would just point out that there are lots of jobs being created around the world right now and is it the case that China and Germany and other countries are investing heavily in clean energy right now they are uh and do you see that as the future of say jobs and Innovation it absolutely is yeah so we are moving away from that and and this happens to follow a promise made by then candidate Trump to don't to to slash regulations on oil in exchange for $1 billion and I just want to make that point
▶ 1:36:52uh because a lot of FKS out there are questioning why we're doing this uh in the in the aftermath of Donald Trump making that promise and there's no oversight of that promise there was none last year uh there is none right now of what looks very blatantly like a it is a criminal activity of promising something in return for campaign contribution which we all know is illegal if I did that I would rightly be charged uh but there was no oversight there continues to be no oversight over that particular exchange with that I yield back
▶ 1:37:23thank you you the gentleman from Pennsylvania Mr Perry is recognized well thank you Mr chairman and I'm not a scientist either and I don't even talk to a lot of scientists but I took science and so for Mr Epstein is science consensus I never was taught that so I'm just looking for what what is is science consensus I actually think consensus has a value in science ultimately it's about who can prove the truth but uh I I know my representative Dave Min is is leaving right now uh but maybe he'll listen to this uh later I live in lagona Beach um
▶ 1:37:53I'm one of his constituents too uh so what you really need is you need scient science combined with other fields so to determine if we have a climate crisis you need to know climate science adaptation economics Etc and if you look at the macro data we are safer than ever from climate disasters and the number one climate related killer is cold so we are not in a warming crisis even though we are I believe changing climate climate change does not equal climate catastrophe and that is ultimately an issue of philosophy and methodology not an issue of
▶ 1:38:23science so and is there proof they always talk about the proof there's proof that the use of traditional fuels is costing and and they come up he said trillions of dollars as a conservative estimate is there any empirical data to support that claim whatsoever he said yeah I'm I'm going to ask my representative for a meeting soon to tell him some stuff on share some facts about this he said conservatively it's it's tens of trillions I think a year okay so the global economy is 100 trillion
▶ 1:38:53so we're just losing like a third of our wealth no so what's actually happening is cheap energy is driving incredible wellbeing increases in life expectancy resiliency etc etc and the externalities point the positive externalities far far outweigh the negative externalities which is why every metric of human life is getting better people who focus on negative externalities are what I call fossil fuel benefit deniers happy to give Dr Cletus uh representative men anyone else copy of my book fossil future chapter 4 in particular explains the
▶ 1:39:24pseudo science of only looking at negative externalities so the positive externalities are amazing the overall impacts are amazingly positive and we'll continue to be so so this might get a little wonky but if you could make it simple for people like me and everybody else that's not a scientist we're to living in I think the second lowest carbon um content in Earth's history not in man's history but in Earth's history I think we're in the second lowest point of atmospheric carbon um
▶ 1:39:54in the Earth's history can you discuss what the effects first of all is is carbon pollution or is it like plant food is carbon pollution and and how do the effects I'm from Pennsylvania and in Pennsylvania we talk about a thing called Reggie the re Regional greenhouse gas initiative can you discuss the effects of how that initiative would uh what the effects would be on the energy Market on prices and availability of energy sure so so
▶ 1:40:24when you're talking about a low point of carbon it's it's all depending on your time scale because if you took it year by year we're at a high point in CO2 in the atmosphere for the last 150 years but if you look at you a scale like 100 million years it's a different kind of thing so in general compared to the Earth's history we are at a low point and we've had mammals and our descendants and stuff like that exist at much lever higher levels of CO2 and Thrive my argument is we can Thrive at almost any conceivable level of CO2 that has existed we can Thrive at a wide variety of temperatures the only
▶ 1:40:54concern is just are you CH is the rate of change so much that you're just changing the infrastructure too quickly unfortunately with sea levels which would be the biggest concern they're currently rising at 1 foot a century and extreme projections are 3 feet a century so we just don't have any catastrophically disruptive rate of change so this idea that change equals catastrophe is an anti-human idea that denies our ability to adapt and master our surroundings and also just treats anything we cause as bad because we caused it now in terms of how this manifests in Reggie and other policies
▶ 1:41:24basically Reggie is a dressed up carbon tax right it mean you're you're forcing people to pay more money for electricity in particular that involves CO2 so what you do is you take the cheapest form of electricity uh which is not being outcompeted you make it more expensive that means energy is more expensive that means everything is more expensive that means your region is less able to compete and if you if I may just I want to make one comment about the jobs that's the only thing I haven't refuted yet it's a total trash argument that this is creating all these miraculous jobs it is not creating any
▶ 1:41:55net new jobs it is creating welfare work it is creating jobs that are uneconomic uncompetitive to follow Milton Freedman why don't we just pay a bunch of people to scoop dirt with spoons out of the ground that'll create jobs too what we want is productive jobs and the way we get productive jobs is we Liberate the economy so that we get the most productive jobs possible so this doesn't create any new good jobs it's creating a bunch of welfare work and Congress should send a signal to all the subsidy Seekers that hey it is not safe to create fake businesses based on subsidies we
▶ 1:42:25want real businesses so if we take the subsidies away that is a great lesson to the American economy to not be subsidy Seekers and to be real value creators I yield the balance thank you and now recognize ranking member Frost for his closing remarks thank you so much thank you for uh thank you to everyone for for being here today um look I think uh we've heard a lot of interesting opinions uh throughout this um
▶ 1:42:55hearing um but what we know to be true is that we are facing a devastating climate crisis it is not hypothetical it's also not something I've read about but it is something I've experienced um being in the State of Florida and uh I look I think the topic of this hearing is important energy reliability and resilience but I got to say that having a project 2025 author and then having a guy that I would say is pretty much a conspiracy
▶ 1:43:26theorist calling climate change a hoax and false I didn't science I didn't ask you a question well you did tell a lie about I didn't ask you a question um calling climate change pseudo science despite the scientific consensus being that it climate the climate crisis is real and we are impacting it um I think is not helpful for the topic of this hearing and so you know I hope as we move forward we can have I I definitely learned
▶ 1:43:56a lot from our other two witnesses um I do think that there's room for bipartisanship on resiliency but unfortunately I think a lot of this hearing was spent listening baseless uh um opinions that are not based on scientific fact or from any real experts on that and I I do think that is important that as we look at the actions of this Administration we hold in line number one the promise that the president made to American families across the country
▶ 1:44:26that our costs would come down we don't think that's going to happen and number two the fact that we've already begun uh marching towards this new green economy that's going to create tons of good paying jobs that's going to help us protect our planet that's going to help spur business across the country especially a lot of small businesses in my district in Orlando um and completely reversing that is a waste of taxpayer money um I agree that there's ways that we can do this in a better way but completely abandoning
▶ 1:44:57this for political purposes I think is the wrong thing to do and to put the cherry on the top the reason is to completely continue to put more money into big polluters and as we know their profits are at an all-time high and our costs are High um and so you know my My Hope Is as we continue here we can really dig into bipartisan Solutions and stay away from conspiracy theories and climate denying thank you I yield back thank you
▶ 1:45:27and I recognize myself for closing remarks I just want to say thank you very much for our expert Witnesses for coming today I believe that we had had a robust debate on policy and I'm glad that we stuck to the debate this hearing has been has helped identify tangible ways in which Congress and the Trump Administration can promote strong reliable and inexpensive energy for the American people the previous administration left the American people on the edge of an energy cliff and power shortfalls are a very real
▶ 1:45:57possibility if we do not address the many issues impacting our power generation and electric grid in 2023 the North American Electric reliability corporation's annual risk assessment included energy policy as one of the leading threats to Electric reliability for the first time ever the 2024 assessment found that many regions of the country had a likelihood of experiencing resource adequacy to see shortfalls in the coming years this is not something to take lightly and
▶ 1:46:27there are growing number of threats that need to be tackled quickly in the coming years just yesterday Chile experienced a massive power blackout due to a transmission line failure leaving millions of its citizens in the dark and disrupting critical infrastructure and functions for daily life events of this size and scale are alarming because they remind us that this can happen anywhere grid operators have sounded the alarms for years of what's to come and if we don't
▶ 1:46:57address the challenges impacting both power generation and our aging infrastructure we are already know what works and overreaching government must get out of the way when it comes to energy policy and regulations for far too long red tape and permitting hurdles have strangled the American Energy sector and the infrastructure that supports this industry the Trump Administration understands the importance of letting the private sector lead and has already begun removing some of the unnecessary barriers to unleash
▶ 1:47:28investment power demand is increasing as the AI race and AI dominance spawns new demand for data centers across the country the need for cheap reliable energy will only grow we can match that need and provide even more power generation through reforming regulations for the power sector including nuclear power which is one of the cleanest forms of power available Congress and the new Administration can take advantage of the abundant resources our nation possesses utilizing reliable fuel
▶ 1:47:59sources to keep the lights on while we develop new innovative solutions that we can rely on in the future and once again I want to thank each and every one of our Witnesses for being here today for their insights and important issues and with that without objection all members will have five legislative days with within which to submit materials to the and to submit additional written questions for the witness which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response if there is no further Business Without objection the subcommittee
▶ 1:48:29stands adjourned good job I thought
▶ 1:50:21e e