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▶ 0:13:04the subcommittee on space and Aeronautics will come to order without objection the chair is authorized to declare recess of the subcommittee at any time welcome to today's hearing entitled step by step the Artemis program and NASA's path to human exploration of the Moon Mars and Beyond and with that I recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement welcome to the space and Aeronautics subcommittee's first hearing of the 119th Congress
▶ 0:13:34I extend my warm welcome to our ranking member uh congresswoman fushi from the state of North Carolina express my enthusiasm to work with her and her team and the returning members of this subcomittee 2026 will be a defining year for the legacy of the United States next April NASA is set to launch emis 2 a mission sending American astronauts into orbit around the moon for the first time in 50 years if we succeed we will clear the path for emis 3 in 2027
▶ 0:14:04with American astronauts will once again step onto the lunar surface and plant the Stars and Stripes this is the most significant moment of America's Space Program since the Apollo program we stand at a Crossroads the world is watching and our competitors like communist China are racing to beat us there we cannot afford to fall behind this is an opportunity to prove that America still leads the world in Exploration and Innovation failure
▶ 0:14:35is not an option to succeed we need the same Relentless pace and Ironclad determination today as we won the Space Race back in the 1960s with each mission NASA tested new systems tackled new challenges and carried us one step closer to Neil Armstrong's great giant leap for mankind at the height of the Apollo program now to launched seven crude missions in less than 2 years that achievement was fueled by patriotism
▶ 0:15:05urgency Ingenuity and an unshakable belief in American greatness returning to the moon has not been without its challenges over the years changing directions and requirements have resulted in scheduled delays and cost overruns not only must we return to the moon and establish a presence but we must do it while spending significantly less money than the Apollo missions that makes every taxpayer dollar given to precious we aim to get the emis program back on
▶ 0:15:35track thanks to president Trump NASA has a clear Direction now that we must ensure that NASA carries out that direction in the most efficient and costeffective means possible I plan to conduct those I I plan to conduct close oversight to ensure that every dollar Nas suspends moves us closer to the moon and to Mars we must remember that we are in race to the moon and that there are consequences for coming in second the Chinese Communist party has set its sights on
▶ 0:16:05landing on the moon by 2030 the nation must establish a foothold there and will shape the Norms of behavior for generations of exploration on the Newar surface I refuse to let the Communist dictatorship set the rules for the future of space now is not the time for half measures the next few years are critical to our national interest and our place in the world we we are on in a race to the moon and America must win that race our journey to the Moon is in service to a greater
▶ 0:16:36goal one that President Trump outlined in his inaugural address to plant the stars and stripes on the planet Mars since 2005 Congress has backed a step-by-step path to human Exploration with Mars as the ultimate goal a mission to Mars will be the defining moment of our era it will no longer and even be it will be longer and even more difficult than a l Landing which is why we must prepare ourselves for the journey the Moon is our critical stepping stone a proven ground to text
▶ 0:17:06Technologies refine operations and reduce risk for future Mars missions every step we take towards the Moon is a giant leap towards Mars to my fellow Americans you deserve to know where your dollars are spent wisely we will conduct careful oversight to ensure that NASA operations at the highest standards and we will settle for nothing less than efficiency productivity and results this is a chance to remind ourselves that we are capable what we are capable of
▶ 0:17:36when we are united behind a shared goal Mars is on the horizon but the Moon is where the we first prove ourselves I want to thank our Witnesses for joining us today and let's get to work with that I would like to recognize our ranking member from the state of North Carolina congresswoman fushi and you recognized thank you Mr chairman I am thrilled to
▶ 0:18:06serve as ranking member of the subcommittee on space and Aeronautics we are at an exciting time and I look forward to working with you and the members of the subcommittee and full committee to continue our bipartisan and critical work on ensuring a strong and vibrant future for civil space and Aeronautics before we turn to the hearing I want to First welcome our expert Witnesses and thank you for being here to discuss Artemis and nessa's
▶ 0:18:36human exploration of the Moon Mars and Beyond through the ottus initiative will land the first woman first person of color and the first International partner astronaut on the surfaces of the Moon and I am so proud that Christina cook who attended High School in my district North Carolina's 4th will be a part of this historic emus 2 crew marking the first return of humans to the lunar
▶ 0:19:07vicinity in over half a century ormus will advance our scientific understanding test capabilities needed for sustained lunar activities assess resources on the moon and help us prepare for an eventual groundbreaking human Mission to Mars arnus is also attracting commercial to advance these and other us lunar activities importantly under emis the United States of America
▶ 0:19:38in hand with our International Partners will lead and shape standards responsible behaviors and best practices consistent with the peaceful exploration and safe utilization of outer space in 2022 NASA successfully launched the emus 1 uncrewed demo mission that provided essential test data including on the Orin heat shield emus 2 preparations are well
▶ 0:20:08underway for a crude demonstration to fly by The Far Side of the Moon next year even today as we are holding this hearing a NASA supported commercial lunar lander the second to launch in just two months is sitting on the Launchpad ready to lift off both commercial Landers carry NASA instruments and will attempt to sit down on the lunar surface in early March despite these important
▶ 0:20:38Milestones NASA's emis campaign is not without challenges including technical complexities affordability and scheduled delays we can and we must seek improvements and Corrections and I mean with a scaffold not a chainsaw if we are serious about returning to the Moon with humans successfully again it will take all of us working together to achieve regular measurable progress
▶ 0:21:08and to ensure that it is done so safely to that end I am disappointed that NASA chose not to send a witness to testify today despite being invited I certainly hope such practice does not continue full transparency with Cong congess and the American public on an effort as important as Artemis is of the utmost importance but these are not normal circumstances at
▶ 0:21:38a time when China is laser focused on sending um teona Nots to the Moon by 2030 I cannot pretend today that the chaos confusion and cruelty levit on our federal government Workforce by the Trump Administration and its destructive executive actions including the threat of mass firing will not negatively impact the United States and our standing around the world or its efforts to return our astronauts American astronauts
▶ 0:22:09to the surface of the Moon and to do so before China I will not sit idly by and let our federal government including NASA and National Crown Jewel be destroyed nor will I stand for handing the keys to Luna exploration to China during so jeopardizes our economic and National Security and our geopolitical influence it also risks the space research technology and services on which
▶ 0:22:39we rely on here on Earth we must protect and enable these essential capabilities as we also seek to push the boundaries of human exploration and activity Beyond low earth orbit to the NASA Workforce I want you to know that you are valued we cannot accomplish nessa's inspiring and historic National Endeavors without you as a ranking member of this subcommittee I commit
▶ 0:23:09to keep a NASA Workforce top of Mind as we work to reauthorize NASA you are our most important National Asset thank you Mr chair and I yield back thank you rank ranky M fushi um also for the record before we move on I would like to request unanimous sent to submit two letters for the record the first is from space Frontier Foundation and the second is from Coalition for deep space exploration without objection so ordered
▶ 0:23:40next I would of course like to welcome our chairman chairman bin thank you very much for being here and with that I recognize the chairman for his remarks thank you very much Mr chairman uh after serving at the helm of this subcommittee uh for so many years it's going to take a hearing or two to get used to sitting way down here at this end uh but today's hearing is especially important as America stands on the verge of returning to the lunar surface and as the proud representative of NASA's Johnson Space Center it is also
▶ 0:24:10a topic that is very near and dear to me space exploration is not a task for the faint of heart American astronauts have accomplished great feats in space they have built space stations operated the space shuttle and of course walked on the moon however these programs are significant undertakings both in time and in resources in 2005 Congress directed NASA to develop a sustained human presence on the moon as a stepping
▶ 0:24:40stone to Future exploration of Mars and other destinations the name and format of the program NASA would use to accomplish this goal changed with time but in each of the authorization acts that followed over the years Congress consistently directed NASA to pursue an increment Al approach using intermediate destinations to develop extensible technologies that would enable Houston uh humans to explore the Moon Mars and Beyond
▶ 0:25:10given the time and resource intensive nature of any space mission successfully carrying out a crude space exploration program requires that the government maintain continuity of purpose over the course of several years changing direction isn't free and it is incredibly taxing on the United States industrial base for years as it evolved from the constellation program to SLS and Orion even to an asteroid redirect Mission
▶ 0:25:40America space program has lacked a clear and consistent path and that is why I was honored to be at the president at president Trump's side when he signed space policy directive one more commonly known as spd1 uh in December of 2017 this update to uh United States National Space policy instructed NASA to partner with the commercial sector and International Community to return humans to the moon and eventually push
▶ 0:26:10toward Mars spd1 aligned with the Congressional directions set forth in previous NASA authorization bills and outlined a clear reachable goal that injected a new sense of urgency and excitement into NASA's mission to ensure the viability of the Artemis program and the efforts of our commercial and international Partners Congress cannot accept unnecessary cost overruns or scheduled delays we will continue to
▶ 0:26:40evaluate the proposed architecture regularly and provide rigorous oversight to ensure that the program remains on track with the CCP planning to send tyut to the moon's South Pole by the end of this decade the stakes are too high for us to fail we cannot afford to let them beat us and as I've stated many many times before one of my greatest concerns is that NASA astronauts will arrive on the lunar surface only to be
▶ 0:27:11greeted by a sign that says no trespassing in Mandarin our nation is uniquely suited to provide leadership on the moon with our commercial and international partners and additionally the United States will maintain openness and transparency in its operations on the lunar surface something that we can be certain the CCP will not we came close to sending a NASA authorization Bill to the president's desk late last year soon this committee
▶ 0:27:41will once again consider legislation to provide NASA with continued direction for human exploration and many other topics I look forward to working with my colleagues on the committee and our counterparts in the Senate to finish the job this year we have a great panel of witnesses and I want to thank both of them for being here today uh who are no strangers to this committee and I thank them for sharing their expertise with us and I look forward to a very productive discussion today with that
▶ 0:28:11I yield back Mr chairman thank you Mr chairman and now I recognize the ranking member of the full committee for a statement thank you ranking member lren you were recognized well thank you chairman heropoulos and ranking member fushi for holding this hearing to review NASA's emis initiative and I want to welcome uh the witnesses back to the committee we appreciate you being here we're all excited about NASA's emis campaign and we support our Moon to Mars program and we want the United States
▶ 0:28:41to succeed in reestablishing a Luna program in preparation for the even more ambitious goal of being the first to step foot on Mars Congress has through successive NASA authorization acts reaffirmed a continuity of purpose for our nation's human exploration activities providing a steady hand in directing a stepping stone approach to human exploration of the Moon Mars and even Beyond while important continuity of purpose alone
▶ 0:29:12will not get us to the moon and Mars NASA needs sufficient resources the necessary Workforce and skills safe and modern infrastructure and facilities and a viable Artemis architecture couched in technical confidence with each of these requirements I'm afraid there are more questions than answers we don't know NASA's funding levels after the continuing resolution runs out on March 14th just a a short few days from now and whether it will continue
▶ 0:29:42at fiscal year 20124 levels or under a fiscal year 2025 appropriation we don't know if NASA will have the workforce and skills to advance Moon to Mars after president Trump's wrecking ball of destructive EX executive actions that has led to deferred resignations threats of layoffs and a remaining NASA Workforce that may be scared distracted and demoralized we don't know when a trump Administration fiscal year
▶ 0:30:122026 budget proposal that lays out the administration's priorities and proposed funding for NASA will arrive and whether it will include funding to rebuild aging and unsafe infrastructure or modernize research facilities and we don't know when the agency will have a senate confirmed administrator and Deputy Administrator to articulate the Trump administration's priorities for NASA finally we don't know if Artemis 3 and the future human Landing
▶ 0:30:43approaches with their highly complex human Landing systems and low technical Readiness levels uh could be viable on a time frame that will ensure NASA as astronauts land at the lunar South Pole and return safely to Earth we hope in advance of China's ta tyona Nots with that Mr chairman I do hope you will consider holding another hearing once we have a NASA official uh to testify and the remaining pieces of the puzzle that I've just listed and with that
▶ 0:31:13Mr chairman I look forward to our witness's testimony and their insights I thank you and I yield back thank you ranking member and let me next introduce our Witnesses today our first witness today is Dr Scott pce the director of space policy Institute at George Washington University and our next witness is Dr Daniel dumbacher who serves as an Adjunct professor at Purdue University I now recognize Dr Pace for five minutes to present his testimony you're
▶ 0:31:46recognized chairman heropoulos ranking member fushi and the distinguished members of this subcommittee thank you very much for holding this important hearing uh as maybe a point of personal interest I'd also like to uh acknowledge my friend George Whitesides newly elected uh to this Congress so uh he's making me feel old I remember when we were both much younger uh in the space advocacy Community but congratulations sir um as a new Congress and a new Administration uh provide a timely opportunity
▶ 0:32:17uh to consider the American space Enterprise and in particular the role of human space exploration in service of US national interests uh I have a written statement ask permission to be included in the hearing record uh and will endeavor to keep my remarks brief we know space is vitally important to the United States but space domain is not subject to the kind of Direct Control possible with land sea or air domains so how can the United States protect its interests and values the answer in part is through International Leadership during the Apollo era we sought
▶ 0:32:47sought to show what the United States and only the United States could do in space today leadership is about having other countries wanting to work with you to be a partner in common Endeavors we need to shape activities in the space domain in a manner conducive to the interest of the United States its allies and like-minded partners space exploration is expensive and takes effort over many years space policy therefore needs to be consistent and sustainable and to do so that policy must be aligned with enduring national interests
▶ 0:33:18it do I believe we have good space policies today but we Face serious implementation challenges the immediate challenges for us space exploration include ensuring more than one way of getting Americans to orbit managing the end of the International Space Station enabling one or more private space stations creating a sustainable return to the moon and building the capabilities to place Americans on Mars I'd like to share two concerns for human space exploration first we should pay attention to geopolitical considerations
▶ 0:33:48and competition in order to ensure that our efforts support those larger national interests the Artemis program is not a military program but it's supports national security purposes by shaping the way Nations behave in Space the rules of the space environment will be made by those who show up not those who stay behind the United States landed on the moon over 55 years ago but today we are at risk of seeing Chinese astronauts on the moon before we're able to return but more than being first we need to
▶ 0:34:18have a sustainable lunar presence sustainable technically economically politically Norway was the first to reach the South Pole but today is the United States that puts some 3,000 people on the ice each year and through its presence the United States shapes and guides the Antarctic treaty system for that remote continent today second the US leadership to be effective human space exporation missions cannot be one and done but must be repeatable and sustainable with continuous presence
▶ 0:34:49as the norm these conditions lead to space architectures who elements are routinely reusable in space utilities power Communications navigation Advanced biomedical knowledge and the use of inspace resources such as water ice and asteroids the Technologies and practices needed for Mars can and should benefit operations in low earth orbit and the moon the current Artemis program presents many challenges a primary concern is a space launch system which is expensive and
▶ 0:35:19not reusable it's had one flight but has trouble meeting the Congressional Target of two cores per year it's time to consider alternatives for going to the Earth to the Moon and back ideally NASA should be able to buy heavy lift services to send payloads to the Moon a revised Artemis campaign plan should be a high priority for the new administrator there may be some painful adjustments with industry and our International Partners but it's excuse me but it's better to do so now
▶ 0:35:49than to continue on an unsustainable and unaffordable path the Artemis policy is a good one supported by Congress and multiple administrations however we need a more sustainable and credible approach to maintain the confidence of the White House Congress industry and our International Partners thank you for your kind attention and I look forward to your questions thank you Dr Pace I now recognize Mr dumbach for five minutes to present his testimony you're recognized thank you committee chairman Babin ranking member Lofgren subcommittee chairman heropoulos and ranking member F
▶ 0:36:19fushi and all sub subcommittee members for the opportunity to discuss the need for the United States to retain and grow its leadership in space I refer to my written testimony submitted for this hearing I am a proud civil servant to the Constitution a long-term NASA senior executive in human space exploration most recently the CEO of the American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics and currently a professor of engineering practice at Purdue University from my experience I have learned it's about doing the right thing at the right time
▶ 0:36:49therefore the discussion is not moon or Mars rather timing dictates that we must first Master the moon and then proceed to Mars I say this because we are at a key Crossroads for us leadership in space our Global competitors primarily China and its allies are out planning and outpacing us in their drive to become dominant in space this is a critical National Security and economic concern this is about the long-term drive to be present to lead and become the first to establish the rules of the road thus mastering the CIS lunar domain
▶ 0:37:20for the purposes of science exploration and Commercial development today's race is about continuous presence values and Technical leadership the nation that leads is the nation that benefits China is striving to lead the implementation and development of the infrastructure retaining The High Ground and reaping the economic benefit China has declared that they will land humans on the moon before 2030 of note China has met every space Milestone they have proposed within plus or minus a year the United States must protect our potential Economic
▶ 0:37:50Opportunity protect our national security lead the building of the necessary infrastructure and importantly lead chartering the rules of the road we must continue to lead the Coalition between the Earth and the moon and we must bring International and Commercial Partners along with us NASA's current plan to return people to the Moon requires approximately 35 to 40 Starship launches to First demonstrate the capability on an uncrewed Mission and then execute the first human Mission planned for Artemis 3 I ask this can 40 launches development
▶ 0:38:20and demonstration of the undeveloped and undemonstrated on orbit rocket fuel station and integration of a complex operational scenario across multiple systems all successfully occur by 2030 the probability of success for this plan is remote at best further the United States does not have a sustainable plan for 2030 and Beyond we need to recognize the competitive environment admit our true technical status and capability provide the needed effort for success and engage our International Partners private Enterprise
▶ 0:38:51space capabilities have grown tremendously in the last decade and are driving our progress with government and private investment we must continue continue to grow this competitive power our Workforce across industry Academia and government our National Asset must be explicitly supported and grown today's Workforce is in turmoil when we need them the most our strength is tapping into the talent across our society clearly showing people the opportunity for their own lives stability real challenging objectives to be accomplished and real problems to be solved
▶ 0:39:21will keep this Workforce engaged and learning all to accomplish the future unnecessary Workforce turmoil allows China additional Advantage I offer the following recommendations one return humans to the Moon as expeditiously as possible by utilizing flight tested existing systems such as the space launch system Orion spacecraft and existing International Partnerships this will require extreme focus by the NASA industry emis team for the goal of returning to the Moon by 2030 assuring the most efficient and technically
▶ 0:39:51rigorous efforts are accomplished recommendation two in parallel utilizing the growing private space capabilities government and Academia immediately initiate the planning and implementation of the sustainable and efficient approach to retain the United States presence on the moon assuring our national security and future Economic Opportunity consistent with national priorities and policy and the national Academy's decadal surveys three Focus the NASA industry Workforce on accomplishing the national objectives with
▶ 0:40:21real timelines and incentives to incorporate new capabilities from across industry academic lab labs and government Labs with urgency and focus Congress must assure the funding recommendation for congressmen must assure the funding and policy stability along with the program sustainability to encourage the best and brightest of our people across our society to lead and implement this critical Enterprise for our national security and Economic Opportunity thank you for your kind attention and this opportunity
▶ 0:40:51to speak I look forward to your questions thank you to both businesses for testifying today I now reserve for myself five minutes for questions uh my first question is uh each Artemis mission is a complex WS of interdependent systems uh I would ask Dr Pace first in your view would any changes to the current emis Mission architecture get us there faster or are there more likely to be delays in our Return To The Moon okay thank you that's great question
▶ 0:41:21um one of the things I said in my testimony is I think we need to have a sort of a more immediate campaign plan the architecture itself uh I think the idea of using public private Partnerships for going to low earth orbit landing on the moon all of that I think that is basically fine the policy direction is fine uh where I was particularly pointing at is the need for a more sustainable more reusable systems for going from the Earth to the Moon which is why I talk about having an on-ramp if you will for alternative heavy lift options uh the uh Artemis 2 and three
▶ 0:41:52cores are already under construction being built I wouldn't propose really changing that I think trying to change that and do something else would produce more delays and would push us past 2030 but as I look beyond that the next two and aremis 2 and three missions maybe four uh we should be thinking about other Alternatives we can have to have that sustainable presence so the first is can we get back to the Moon you know faster tons of things to do to work on that as Dr dumbacher says and then the question is be able to sustain that and be be there over time
▶ 0:42:22that's going to require I think changes uh in what we do and bringing on new cap abilities that we do not currently have thank you Dr Pace and and um Mr dumbacher a second question um as the committee has noted NASA has faced a lot of challenges with emis what lessons could we learn from our part private Partners who've had so much success over the last few years one of the lessons we can learn that would be most beneficial would be applying the rapid urgency and focus that we see from our private companies
▶ 0:42:53the ability to solve and rectify problems in a very timely manner man uh decision velocity being much increased uh so that it doesn't take we get decisions in short weeks and not months uh which all goes to cost and all goes to affordability uh the other changes I would propose is that similar to Dr Pace is let's use the as I say it the tools in the toolbx we already have the hardware on on online with Artemis and
▶ 0:43:23we might have to build a Lander we might have to scale down the current Lander opportunities examples that we have in work so that we get to that 2030 Landing but most importantly is get the decision velocity dramatically increased and get the efficiency and the urgency and focus clear all throughout the program um my my next question is um how can the US continue to leverage commercial Partnerships to outpace International rivals in lunar exploration and Beyond
▶ 0:43:54Pace U I think that's really one of the things in space policy directive one uh the president put in commercial and international Partnerships because it represents a very different way of doing business today than it did during the Apollo program so we need our International Partners to shape the environment we need commercial Partners to actually provide the Innovation necessary to uh in an affordable and sustainable way uh make progress toward the moon and Mars I think the partnership there is not just simply one of money going
▶ 0:44:24back and forth and who builds what but also terms of just cutting down the kind of regulatory oversight that doesn't really always add value uh you have small companies around the US who be happy to build a couple of hydrogen valves for us but really don't because the paperwork is just ridiculous and they just really can't do it there are a lot of reforms that the dod is looking at in terms of acquisition those similar kind of reforms are ones that NASA looks at in acquisition because what we need to do is shape an industrial base that provides the capability for
▶ 0:44:54the United States to explore and go where wants when it wants and one of the things really standing in the way is ourselves uh the way we do business uh the old styles that we did business that worked I think during Apollo shuttle and even station are not ones that really work today we need more commercial companies willing to work with the government and provide things to the government where in many cases they're not because of the burden that regulatory processes that we we require uh impose on them uh so we obviously need to have better
▶ 0:45:25transparency it's not just buy and trust uh but we need to find ways that we reform the way we integrate and work with the private sector to get them to want to be part of us thank you Dr B and let me asky blank question Mr dumbacher you mentioned a lot of these concerns if Artemis doesn't work in 2026 as we all hope it will what would you recommend we do first of all I'm confident that Artemis 2 will work knowing the technical Workforce that's
▶ 0:45:55behind it and making it happen it's a matter of doing it quicker uh and getting to Artemis 3 quicker I think right now our problem is is because of our Lander designs and other opportunities we have developed this complex multiple launch scenario that keeps us from getting humans to the Moon by 2030 and so what we need to fix is how we execute Artemis 3 and get emis 2 flying as quickly as possible thank you very much and with that I now recognize our ranking member from North Carolina
▶ 0:46:25for 5 minutes for questions you're Rec reced thank you Mr chairman I am proud that North Carolina Ray Christina cook has been named to the emis 2 crew and will be the first woman to travel Beyond low earth orbit I am appalled that the Trump administration's attack on any effort to even acknowledge the underrepresentation of women and people of color in stem Fields let alone addresses the issue Mr dumbacher why is it so important that our astronaut Corps
▶ 0:46:55is representative of our nation and that NASA engages all Americans of every background in its Mission congresswoman fushi the one of the things I learned uh very directly as the CEO of the American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics and also one of the reasons I went back into teaching is because it's about people need to see themselves and they need to see the opportunity uh they need to know that people like them can accomplish
▶ 0:47:26and execute and they the more they see of that the better it is and it also is critical that those people and their support networks their family their friends their relatives also see that opportunity so being representative of society uh as the aiaa worked to to do over the course of our strategic planning is is absolutely critical so that all of our members of our society are engaged and included in what we do
▶ 0:47:56so followup to that is how will actions that turn away talent and discourage the Next Generation affect NASA's efforts to return humans to the moon and land the first astronauts on the surface of Mars many of the probationary employees who are being considered for layoffs are just getting started in their careers it is a very much a concern and in fact over the weekend I had the chance to talk with former students uh NASA employees that are scared they are Cur they
▶ 0:48:26are concerned because of the turmoil and believe me they are some of the smartest people I am more than happy to turn over the future to them and they they are concerned and they see that and they are actually questioning what are they going to do for their careers and looking at other opportunities which I think is terribly sad because of the national imperative that we have and the global competition that we are engaged in as Dr Pace has alluded has discussed and I have discussed we are in a global competition and
▶ 0:48:57if we don't take advantage of all of the talent across the society across the us then we do that we we give up that capability at our Peril thank you for that acknowledgement Dr Pace in your written statement you note that space leadership is about having other countries wanting to work with you um to be a partner in common Endeavors I share your sentiment however recently Mr musk abruptly asserted that the International
▶ 0:49:27Space Station a beacon of International Space cooperation between multiple Nations and operations three years earlier than planned so that we can go to Mars are you concerned about the impact of this type of comment uh what it might have on our ISS Partners many of whom are also involved in emis so um I saw the comment and interesting um I guess I would say first of all that
▶ 0:49:57um it's not really fully accurate in the sense that we've gotten all the value we can out of station there's lots more value still to be had doing research and work on board uh just as one example the environmental life support system aboard space station uh is mostly closed um over 90% of air and water is being recycled they can do that for up to three years that's important for going to Mars and so being able to demonstrate life support systems for that on the other hand I would say that that Mr musk has a point about being prepared to deorbit
▶ 0:50:28we have problems aboard uh the Russian segment of the module we have an air leak uh I was woken up at 6:30 in the morning in 2019 to be told that there was you know an air lock air leak uh and that we needed to pay attention to it and we started worrying about crew safety so this has been going on for a while I have concerns about whether or not the station will in fact be safe and habitable it is now but whether that be through to 2030 so I think it's wise to be prepared to come down sooner I just don't think it's because there's not more to do there's plenty
▶ 0:50:58to do but we do need to be prepared to come down sooner if need be for safety reasons thank you for that um a final comment I have said before that the safety of NASA's astronauts is always top of mind for me and for everyone involved in overseeing our nation Space Program NASA is increasingly turning to Commercial Services commercial service models rather for human space flight I believe it is critical for the agency to have well-crafted and targeted oversight procedures that
▶ 0:51:28can ensure is contractors are every bit as committed to a culture of safety as NASA itself I wish that NASA had agreed to testify here today so that I could ask them directly but I would like to still hear from you Mr Don Barker um as you have had a long career in human space flight programs at Nasa how do you see NASA's ability to evaluate and ensure that as human space flight contractors May maintain a robust safety culture
▶ 0:51:59commissionerate with the risks of deep space exploration and the extremely high stakes um the lives of our astronauts and if you can please keep it brief yes thank you certainly astronaut safety is key uh I wear today my silver Snoopy pin to recognize that it is it's it's about appropriate oversight and insight not overbearing and getting to that right back balance is the key and we have drifted to overbearing
▶ 0:52:29very risk averse and we need to back we need to rebalance so that we get more the proper Insight at the proper risk and be able to move on with decision velocity quickly thank you and I yeld back Mr chair thank you and now I recognize the representative from Florida Congress Webster for five minutes thank you chairman thank you for having this uh hearing and sounds like it's uh very important to be done right and Dr Pace you
▶ 0:52:59mentioned that the emis program needed revision then you later said maybe it doesn't need that much rision uh what what do you what does that entail I think that I think the one of the primary things it entails is what do we do after Artemis 2 and three uh I think the emis 2 mission as I say I think is underway and and keep uh keep going arus the other missions for landing I think to
▶ 0:53:29beat there beat the Chinese back I think are fine uh but I think it looking beyond that you know how do I make sure we're able to go back and forth you know to the Moon in a sustainable way and build up the capabilities necessary really to go to Mars so I would say the immediate campaign plan if you will for the next several missions uh is going to be important to get there to ahead of the Chinese and then we need to be able to think and how are we going to stay there in a way that's sustainable and and affordable so as I said I think the policy direction is fine I think the major
▶ 0:53:59elements are fine we need alternatives for heavy lift uh in the case of of the SLS because it simply hasn't been able to produce enough of them which the Congress has directed it to do uh to provide more opportunities uh and other than that it's we got to go fly we got to go get experience and um uh if we if we simply sit on the ground we'll have a lot of Hangar Queens but we won't really get the data uh that we need so uh I think think the program is at the point where it really is about to fly it needs to fly
▶ 0:54:30more and I'd like to see us get that experience so would you say that um this would be a high priority for the new NASA administrator I think probably the I would suggest that his one of his highest priorities is to really get a get a group of people uh together and fairly short order not a year-long study not another you know large uh large effort but to say okay what are we really going to do uh to meet the directions that the
▶ 0:55:00Congress and the White House have given to us and uh if I may be so bold uh I think you could come up with an answer in about 60 days or less so people have all the reports necessary and the data analysis is all sitting on the shelf now it's a matter of that decision velocity as Dr dun Bacher said to pull a lot of that stuff together uh and to really report back to you and the White House as to what needs to happen in the president's budget request what needs to happen in the authorization bill and if we're unfortunately
▶ 0:55:30um uh suffer under a continuing resolution what things to prioritize in that environment so because you all have some really important decisions to make we've kind of answered that uh the next question would be um what process would there be for revising the emis program um so that would be uh the idea of making haste making it happen making it fast is that correct yes because if we want to go to Mars
▶ 0:56:01we have to learn a lot of things that are necessary for going to the Moon uh the step-by-step approach the incremental approach that uh that this committee uh has talked about and really this Congress has supported since 2005 represents I think a bipartisan consensus that's in fact correct uh we have to do a lot of work there's no shortcut uh there's no there's no easy way uh to learn how to live and work and operate in space and get to Mars so we have to do the work and the sooner we do the work the sooner you know we're going to get
▶ 0:56:31there okay um I think you're right get to work thank you so much for your time reel back thank you represent West next we recognize the congresswoman from California congresswoman Lin you recognize your five minutes uh thank you very much and thanks to the witnesses for this thoughtful testimony I am concerned about about the impacts of the chaos of recent weeks on our NASA Workforce
▶ 0:57:02um for example I think that the 20-some hackers may not realize that when you get a merit-based promotion you are put on probationary status for the the merit-based new job those are the people targeted uh for layoffs the people who are most meritorious I mean this is chaos uh the NASA acting administrator said at a commercial space conference recently that NASA is focused on
▶ 0:57:32implementing the executive orders instead I think the NASA's Workforce needs to be focused on getting the NASA Mission done I see this firsthand from my constituents who work at am Research Center which is outside my district of course but the chaos the confusion the Whiplash intimidation and bullying of the workforce is agency and government widen and every day NASA employees are worried that they or their colleagues are going to be arbitrarily
▶ 0:58:03fired or they reportedly getting told to hide pride stickers in their cubicles they don't even know if the administration is going to tell them to abandon the moon alog together and when it comes to Artemis I'm uh also uh concerned about the unprecedented influence Elon Musk seems to have on strategic Direction in this this Administration ranking members fushi Sykes and I have sent letters uh questioning NASA on uh
▶ 0:58:33so-called Doge and the potential conflicts of its leadership at Nasa and even though SpaceX has contracts worth billions for developing human Landing systems for the return of our astronauts to the Moon Mr musk keeps talking about heading straight to Mars uh beyond the obvious fact that this approach is could serve his personal interests I think it's bad policy and I'd like to ask both of you Mr dumbacher and Dr Pace they're both experts
▶ 0:59:04so please in your opinions why are we going to the Moon while keeping our sights on Mars and what would it mean to abruptly change the longstanding Moon to Mars approach I I will take it first and then turn it over to Dr Pace I think why we are going to the Moon is to as Scott has said learn it's also about making sure we are there and present for the long term to help establish the rules of the road
▶ 0:59:34reap the economic benefits and help retain The High Ground this is an important we need to learn along the way and we need to recognize that the global competition is occurring from from the earth to the moon and to the lunar surface there is not a global competition yet for Mars so we need to take right the right thing at the right time Moon first then Mars um thank you very much for that question um I would say well first of all you know
▶ 1:00:05leadership in space today is is different than Apollo Apollo is about look what we can do by ourselves today it's about look what we do that againsts other people that want to be with us I would also submit that the idea of going directly uh to Mars actually was already tried it was tried during the Obama Administration when they abandoned the moon and said well let's go to Mars U of course uh I was very critical of this not because I was critical of Mars but because I was critical of a program that I thought was disconnected from geopolitical reality other countries really couldn't cooperate with us
▶ 1:00:35and so when spd1 was was uh after it was signed I had the opportunity to be in Tokyo at a major space meeting and the tenor of the room was completely different people were like oh we can do the moon what do you need how can we help what can be part of yes they're with us on on idea of Mars as the goal and build forward to that but to do that se separate from where other people are uh I think left the US in a worse geopolitical position not intentional but it left us in a worse position as a result so I think uh
▶ 1:01:06uh while people can have their personal interests in how to uh go about space exploration I think the national interest is one which uh really enhances the position of the United States and the sequential steps that the Congress has laid out are in fact in those National interest so we need to put our national interest ahead of our personal interests and I appreciate your Insight and I hope that our committee will maintain its bipartisan effort uh to support the plan that is workable in the National interest is likely
▶ 1:01:36to beat our major competitor China and not go off on wild uh tangents that appear not to be well thought out with that Mr chairman I uh yield back thank you I now recognize the representative from Georgia Mr mccor for his five minutes of questions thank you Mr chair and congratulations on your new position uh I am uh really excited to be here today and and talk to you folks about what works uh we are in increasingly difficult times when it comes to Global competition and even
▶ 1:02:06countries who are not traditionally known for space travel have done very well with India putting a a aircraft on the on the far side of the moon for under a hundred million I don't think we could get an organization together to talk about making a spaceship for under $100 million I mean that's just the reality of it we can't get through the administ St of process for that much money let Alan actually put metal together and put rocket fuel in something and actually get the technology to work we're not efficient at all I think we' all agree on that and
▶ 1:02:36that's one of the reasons that we're falling behind China you mentioned today about um how we're falling behind China because they they meet their marks when they set a goal they actually get there because of course they have a Unified Government because one person kind of calls the shots and I get the efficiencies of that uh but all I'm looking for is Solutions because right now this doesn't affect just getting getting to the moon or getting to the Mars this is the way we Face intelligence and armed services uh we're talking about emps we're talking about space weapons we're talking about the ability to defend ourselves
▶ 1:03:07and be on the offense when it's necessary to take out something that's going to harm American citizens this is about everything that we hold near and dear it's not just one thing my question is in a time where we're we're continuing to advance rapidly in the commercial industry but we're falling way behind in every government contract we do why isn't why AR why aren't we turning to more um outside the box thinking when it comes to collaboration when it comes to when when we can see one program is obviously failing
▶ 1:03:37and then you got one man who's putting more spaceships into outer space than all other nations combined and and actually bails n NASA out when we when we leave somebody stranded why aren't we doing better collaboration and what can we do better specifically I'll give you the first crack Dr PE I Lov your comment by the way on on the hangar Queen as an aviator that's near and dear to my heart Hangar Queens come from inefficiencies when we have Parts problems or people problems we get hanger Queens that's what we have right now I couldn't agree with you
▶ 1:04:07more well thank you I I think one of the things we need to do and one of the ways to uh going back to inspiring the workforce uh and to keep them sort of focused is to give them real and tangible things to go do when you do flight test when you do Hardware it kind of drives out nonsense uh doesn't clog up the system when you're actually sort of working and flying uh and we put a lot of nonsense in the way of uh of people getting their jobs done and so the reason why we have uh acquisition issues is because we often
▶ 1:04:37prioritize our bureaucratic processes over and above the mission uh the mission takes you know secondary to making sure the paperwork is fill that directly you'll have tons and tons of specification documents disclosures and so forth on you know Cost Plus contracts all of it's there and required it's built in um but you really asked is that's really adding value I think one of the things that I would worry about both on the NASA side and on the dod side is that we're not able to take advantage of the Innovation uh that's there and potentially available for us in the private
▶ 1:05:07sector uh because people really won't want to work with us you look at the number of companies that sell to the commercial sector versus selling almost exclusively to DOD uh in the past during uh you know back in the '90s or some prior to '90s uh companies would sell to both government and Industry to today there's an increasing number of the larger companies that sell really only to the government and so there's been kind of a separation uh in the US industrial base in the economy we need to sort of take down those barriers to where private companies are more
▶ 1:05:37willing uh to partner and work uh with the us so we can get that Innovation that we need and you would agree that the private sector is vastly outpacing uh our our capabilities in the government sector I would say there are some tremendous capabilities in the government sector that don't exist in the private sector okay but the inov ation that the private sector is able to do is because they don't have the other burdens that government carries with it so there are really some smart capable you're talking about regulation I couldn't agree with you more regulatory relief uh and and
▶ 1:06:07acquisition streamlining is probably one of the most important things common to both defense and NASA and that's been holding us back both in private and government uh space exploration in in a world that is much more Innovative and moving much faster than ever did before I got about 30 seconds for you to wrap it us up Sir well I think uh to pull a thread a little bit further I think actually if you give the leadership and the team at Nasa and in government a little bit more leeway to go do their job they will go do it I have seen firsthand
▶ 1:06:38examples inside the agency and I lived it myself where given the right leeway given the right motivation and given the right resources we went off and accomplished things vertical Landing before it became commercial uh can actually be done in the government and can be done quickly if given the right leeway I couldn't agree and and just a summary Point Mr chair is that basically when when people who are doing the hard work are left alone because they want to be safe I want to survive my mission if we're left alone to to actually accomplish
▶ 1:07:08our missions we'll be the safest people alive but if you over-regulate us you overburden us we will fall behind and this is a global competition thank you so much gentlemen and thank you Mr chair thank you and with that I recognize representative from California Mr Whitesides for his five minut of questions welcome thank you Mr chairman I look forward to working with you as well as ranking member of fush fushi it's so so good to uh be here for this first meeting um I also want to uh say I'm looking forward to working with uh ranking member um lren and and chair Babin
▶ 1:07:39I also want to call out somebody who's been to space here in this uh hearing uh which is Pam melroy uh former astronaut and Deputy Administrator we're thankful for your service for the nation and for all you've done so thank you Pam uh I want to uh recognize the witnesses I think Dan your leadership in engineering and and your work at AIA is super uh is super important for the nation and Scott I think your tenure as executive secretary was one of the best run periods of uh of space policy
▶ 1:08:09and so I I want to recognize you both I want to start by sending a message to the NASA employees out there which is that we hear you we support you as you said Dan people are scared and I think um I think we as a committee have a strong interest in a Workforce that is supported that feels able to conduct its Mission and that is not uh Running Scared and so I know that I have been getting many messages from folks who feel under attack they don't know if
▶ 1:08:39they're going to get fired uh after uh after we have a confirmation of the next administrator this is not the situation that is conducive to expanding our leadership in human space flight and so to those folks I want to say we're going to do everything we can to support you and and we are going to do everything we can to build an agency that that continues to do uh great things I'm particularly concerned for the NASA centers in my area NASA Armstrong and JPL uh we've had various folks who are already affected by the
▶ 1:09:09different um employee actions that the Administration has pursued and and of course we're very concerned about um the Spectre of probationary firings so let's start there um Dan you you talked about this a bit in your in your testimony um now probationary employees are sometimes uh people who have been uh promoted but often they are the younger generation how important is the next Generation to pursuing an ambitious space exploration
▶ 1:09:39program the next generation is absolutely critical because they need to replace old guys like me uh they that's going to be the long-term talent and it takes time to build the talent we are talking about dealing and addressing the challenges that beings have not addressed until this generation the combination of the private Enterprise power capability the combination of the government and academic communities is critical and the young people are our future and getting
▶ 1:10:10them and bringing along young people throughout our society to tap into those to tap into that Talent we haven't tapped into in the past is absolutely essential for This Global competition we're in thanks a lot all right so next question question and I think this is potentially an issue where we can keep returning to is the issue of risk and you know if we are to compete with the Chinese which we we absolutely need to uh and if we are to just do anything because we've been trying to go
▶ 1:10:40beyond low earth orbit for over 50 years um we with humans um I think we need to look at our nation's risk posture and that is going to be a national conversation that we need to have um there's the old phrase that f failure is not an option and I think that that has um been toxic to America's uh Space Program because the reality is that um if you're trying to do hard things you're going to fail sometimes
▶ 1:11:10and uh of course we want to make sure that everyone is safe on board um and we need to make sure that we are we're pursuing a structure that enables us to to take smart risk and so I was wondering Scott if you might want to talk to or Dan you both have a lot of experience in it well let let me start since Scott let me um I look at the statement as failure is not an option when I have people on board failure is an option when I'm on the test stand
▶ 1:11:40trying to understand the limits and I'm trying to figure out where fail where those limits are so that I can protect the people that are on board that launch vehicle or in that spacecraft I think risk we have become more risk averse over time our Workforce has essentially on the human space flight side has been hired since Challenger in Columbia where it's where failure is not an option has been the Mantra science Community has a has an ability to learn how to go through these programs
▶ 1:12:11and the in the full life cycle we do we have not had that opportunity as much on the human space flight side and our Workforce needs to have those opportunities and those flight tests and flying Hardware like Scott alluded to earlier so that we can get that experience and get that capability rebuilt thanks I yield back uh Mr chairman thank you very much I now recognize our chairman from Texas Dr Babin for his five minutes you recognize Mr chairman thank you Mr chairman and
▶ 1:12:41uh Dr Pace Congress directed NASA to establish the Moon to Mars program office as part of the last Nas authorization act signed into the law the Aerospace safety advisory panels Asa APS uh most recent report recommended that and I quote NASA would benefit from formalizing a design reference Mission or DRM for Artemis to define the concept of operations a DRM
▶ 1:13:11is a detailed conceptual framework that outlines how a mission will be conducted specifying objectives the systems involved in operational Pro processes your testimony States NASA needs an integrated exploration campaign plan with detailed systems engineering for a simpler more suitable excuse me more sustainable architecture How could a design reference Mission inform such a campaign plan thank you that's a
▶ 1:13:41great question and uh first of all and thank you to the Congress for creating the Moon to Mars program office I think that was amazingly helpful uh It produced more integration across the different elements uh and so hopefully you'll have someone from the Moon to Mars program office uh uh testify maybe at a future future session I hope that is because I think there's some great people there um I would say the drms would be very much help very helpful uh design reference missions were created for the space shuttle there were about four of them uh that the program uh was designed around um when we
▶ 1:14:11did the Artemis program uh uh got it started uh during the first Trump Administration uh one of the things that I wanted was a three- ring binder with a bunch of design reference missions in it uh to say what was going to actually uh uh so I think NASA has done a lot of great work thinking about its architectures and variations in it but for the really immediate term having a set of designed reference missions to organize your campaign plan around I think would be very helpful and I think the Moon to Mars program office is something that could probably
▶ 1:14:41do that okay thank you 10 years ago a national research Council report titled Pathways to exploration stated the human space flight program in the United States had experienced considerable programmatic turbulence with frequent and dramatic changes in program goals and Mission plans in response to changes and National policies the changes had a high cost in program resources and opportunities and impos what many feared was an
▶ 1:15:11intolerable burden on already constrained human exploration budgets a later ASAP report stated that NASA faces another challenge that has historically led to disruption and inefficiency and arguably has impact on safety and good systems engineering this is the challenge of starting over with new programs and directions following Administration change as in Prior reports the ASAP urges constantly constancy of purpose
▶ 1:15:42failing to stay the course with current programs of record will make it an even longer costlier and potentially less safe trip to Mars another ASAP report once again expressed this sentiment by state the ASAP it reiterates the need for consistent program goals funding and schedules also known as constancy of purpose human space flight and exploration are inherently challenging and risky and require far-reaching long-term National commitment to capitalize
▶ 1:16:12on painstakingly achieved knowledge and to realize the results of resource Investments the lack of consistent commitment negatively impacts cost schedule and performance Workforce morale process discipline and most importantly safe uh safety uh Mr dumbacher to address this issue president Trump issued space policy directive number one during his first Administration that maintained constancy of purpose and reaffirm NASA's
▶ 1:16:42goal to return to the Moon can you speak please to continuity of purpose at this stage of the artus program uh absolutely I'm happy to thank you uh chairman Babin for that question and I will o highlight that your the National Academy report you referred to I use in my class for the students uh on purpose the because that constancy of purpose that has been demonstrated from spd1 the NASA authorization acts the bamal bipartisan support is absolutely
▶ 1:17:13critical on the execution side that purpose knowing what the target is and continuing towards Target is critical the funding and the resources have to come with it but first is the purpose it helps keep people aligned it helps keep people knowing where we're going what the road map looks like and and where we're eventually headed constancy of purpose doesn't mean I can't change down the road as new capabilities come online I need to be flexible I need to take
▶ 1:17:43the opportunity as new private Enterprise capabilities come in I need to be able to include those and maybe get rid of some things and bring in new that's okay but the purpose is still the same I still have the constancy of purpose and if I still have the resources we can go make it happen thank you Mr chairman I'm out of time I may submit this last one uh last question for the record thank you Mr chairman thank you next I recognize the representative from Oregon Miss Selenas for her five minutes of questions thank
▶ 1:18:13you chair um heropoulos and ranking member fushi and thank you to our Witnesses for being here today my district includes multiple NASA contractors and subcontractors for the Artemis program companies like blue origin axium and others support a vibrant ecosystem of small businesses that contribute key components to NASA missions from machinists like machine sciences and tresy to electronics and software companies like Mentor graphics and timbercon Oregon six District really is a hub for this kind of work can you expand
▶ 1:18:43on the value of engaging a broad Aerospace supply chain and how does it affect the cost of art Artemis programs and more broadly what are the implications for America's economic the industrial uh con congresswoman that's an excellent question and thank you uh it highlights a very important point that it's not just scientists and Engineers it's the entire Workforce that's needed to go make to go make this happen the industrial base as we've seen it uh has been weakened over
▶ 1:19:13time we have to build it back and major programs like emis and what we do on the National Security side uh are facing those challenges every single day it is critical that we get the uh skilled technical labor that builds this Hardware uh that turns the ideas into reality uh get them brought along it's just as important as other members on the team and we we have to continue to build that we build it by doing things
▶ 1:19:44we do it by building Hardware by flying missions by making things happen we don't build the industrial Base by talking about it thank you I agree so of course these small suppliers hire local talent and support good jobs in my community and when I've had the opportunity to meet with these workers it's inspired me how inspired they are to play a role in a literal moonshot and last Congress I introduced a resolution to established July 20th the anniversary of the first Apollo moon landing
▶ 1:20:14as National moonday because the importance of this is inspirational quality of these missions I don't think should be overlooked space exploration is something that brings Americans together and it truly inspires young people to pursue careers that are critical to our economy and to technological advancements that benefits all of society so what specifically should we be doing to better leverage NASA space exploration and science missions to inspire children to pursue careers in stem and ensure Artemis can similarly
▶ 1:20:44bring Americans together and Inspire us for Generations uh well I have uh a lot of students of course who uh who come to University who who want to uh get involved in space uh sort of obviously engineering and policy and economics and so forth but I think what Dr dumbacher was saying about we need all kinds of people to build things uh you know down in uh uh down in Texas you have Steel Workers building spaceships I mean how really cool is that um as we have new levels of Technology additive
▶ 1:21:14manufacturing more flexible production lines we want to be able to tap everybody uh in the US economy who can potentially contribute and so when we have regulatory burdens get in the way of that there's really then not that opportunity so we Inspire students and young people by saying here's something you can work on but then we have to follow through and say and by the way the company you work for that's able to do this uh fate is competes on the strength of what it produces not on how its ability to fill out the paperwork um and so
▶ 1:21:44opening up more opportunities for competition then makes that dream of participation a reality so the two really go together both the education part and seemingly dull things like regulatory reform thank you and so I just um so I think it goes hand inand and I don't and I know we've talked a bit about this so building on that recent reports have indicated that approximately 5% of NASA's Workforce took that fork in the road deferred resignation offer and additional layoffs could be in the works and NASA has canceled programs aimed at engaging
▶ 1:22:15diverse populations so I want to make sure H to be very clear about you know giving that inspiration but then being realistic how will these actions from the Trump Administration affect career opportunities for early career Professionals in Aerospace fields in the short-term and what are the long-term implications well I I will ALS I'll go ahead and reiterate uh some points made at the full Committee hearing on February 5th that it the the more the less uncertainty the better and
▶ 1:22:45that people need to see the opportunity for their for their careers they need to see how it benefits them they need to know it's stable and they want to know that are working on real problems and real challenges that that matter so I think making sure we do that is is critical and continue to build it so that we get the real work done the turmoil that is occurring now is causing people to question and these are bright people
▶ 1:23:15that are we need for the Long Haul and what we are doing is inadvertently slowing down our ability for them to learn because they're worried about their future and that we're not over here doing and learning so we need to get them back to the doing and learning thank you so much my time has expired I'll yield back thank you I now recognize the representative from Texas Mr cell for his five minutes of questions uh thank you Mr chairman I am new to this uh committee so I'm as I try to
▶ 1:23:45prepare I wanted to uh go back to in my reading uh George Bush George W Bush in 2004 said we would go to the Moon by 2020 well immediately after that we had President Obama who cancel programs who I think you mentioned Mars I think there was an asteroid in there uh real real simple question how many years did the Obama destruction
▶ 1:24:15of this program cost us here we are in 2025 uh George W bush said we'd go to the Moon by 2020 how how many years are we now into delay because of the Obama cancellations of programs and distractions about asteroids and Mars simple question how many years delay y'all have been at this far longer than I have what's your expert assessment uh well uh we were hoping to be on the Moon
▶ 1:24:46by 2024 so I would say uh uh certainly uh certainly 20 years if not uh if not more I would say you know maybe maybe a decade or so lost uh there was progress I would say during the Obama Administration on some things commercial crew I just to ask you one question sir I would say I would say about a decade a decade very good thank you Mr dumbacher Dr dumbacher Congressman I'll put it in the category of probably about five years given what we had to go from the transition of constellation to
▶ 1:25:16what's now Artemis uh and what it took us that down that dip down and that restart uh is is was critical uh but but I would say five years and then it's been a matter of how we've executed since then yeah thank thank you for that um Dr dumbacher you said that 2030 is remote at best um we've I've heard a lot about speed here from the two of you and you've been at this a long time uh we've heard
▶ 1:25:46about the Chinese discipline uh in there and I think the what I'm getting from the two of you is you expect them to meet 2030 yeah uh so in every committee that I belong to U I hear a lot about inputs we do this we fund this we we study this we the outputs is what almost every committee I'm more interested in
▶ 1:26:16than the inputs the outputs so simple question to the two of you how do we get to 2030 so talk about maybe commercial versus NASA how do we get to 2030 because if we've lost this decade five years to decade how do we now get to our to our how do we get there excellent question uh congressman and I will tell you it's a topic of debate but I'll give you my opinion sure my opinion my hopefully
▶ 1:26:46informed opinion is number one I take advantage of the hardware I already have in the in the barn and the hardware available in Artemis 2 and three to go make it happen MH uh number two is I get myself a simplified Lander so that I can get to the Moon that does not require multiple launches the the my 40 number comes from demonstrating it twice I have to do the whole mission twice once uncrewed and then crude right I need to get that number of launches dramatically
▶ 1:27:17reduced I need to go simple so use the hardware I have available I have to go get a small new Lander to go do that okay and and this is another important part I have to give the the team at Nasa and Industry the laser focus and the urgency to make sure that I only deal with what I need to deal with I cut back on the administrative administr administrivia that they may be dealing with dial back the risk aversion like we've talked
▶ 1:27:47a little bit about so that that team has the leeway to go accomplish the mission objectives utilizing what we have available and then go figure out what I do beyond that for the long-term sustainability Dr Pace I think that's right if I would simply only add uh one thing to that um is something overlooked is Communications and navigation the Chinese are sending up relay satellites now for communicating and operating around the Moon uh we have our
▶ 1:28:17own systems set up uh there's going to be International conferences in in the next two years uh looking at confirming the frequency where we're going to be operating at so the ability to navigate create infrastructure in and around the moon is going to precede whether or not humans land there uh it's not going to be like the old days uh for Apollo and so shaping that infrastructure those decisions are happening really right now and so faster progress on Communications navigation uh flying uh some of these experiments I could go into some more other technical details
▶ 1:28:47if you want um but I think getting the organization back to where it's flying more routinely builds a culture you can't just tell people go take more risk right they have to have some experience doing that we got to give them opportunities for flying as I said just go do it my time is up but I will point out we've heard regulations we've heard risk aversion so that's congress's Duty how do we uh cut down on the regulations and the risk aversion I yield back thank you I now
▶ 1:29:18the representative from Michigan Miss Stevens for her five minutes of questions thank you so much and it's um a delight that it's February 26th and I'm finally speaking in a science Committee hearing you know we've um got a lot of important topics here and um chair Herod dolos we want to welcome and congratulate you uh to Congress you're feeling big shoes with Mr posy who we um L serving with on this committee and we deeply care about the US Space Race and of course
▶ 1:29:49it's also a delight to have Mr Babin as our chair so Lofgren still in her role Mr whiteside's here we got Selena I love all these people you know we're a collective committee but as I was thinking about this uh topic of ours and as someone who is very dedicated representative for Michigan obviously we've got a strong Automotive uh ecosystem manufacturing sector a lot of it is Diversified into the supply chain of of space
▶ 1:30:19uh and our grand competition I I just can't remember when when we were last as a congress talking about a space brace and and maybe that was you know we did the 50-year anniversary of landing on the moon when I was in my first term that was in 2019 now we're a handful of years on but when we were going into that history we weren't looking at it from the lens of major cuts to Public Health and last night we just
▶ 1:30:50passed um not me but we saw um a a the majority uh unanimously nearly unanimously uh vote to pass a budget resolution that would cut $880 billion do potentially for Medicaid for people and I look at that and I think holy smokes you know we want to we want to win the race to the future I got a lot of technical questions for you guys
▶ 1:31:20maybe I'll have to submit them as questions for the record but I just want wonder how we can be competitive and successful in this area when we can't give people the benefits they've earned when we look at families with children who have medically complex challenges and we're going to say you're not going to have your health care and I I look I don't often bring up
▶ 1:31:50healthc care in this committee I mean we've been passing chips bills and science builds up the woo building blocks of stemat was signed by President Trump in the law in on December 24th 2019 and that was an equity bill um it was my bill with Dr Jim be and some Partners in the Senate but I just think this is really important to bring up here because if we're really going to lead as a nation what we see and what I know
▶ 1:32:20that's happening back home reminds me of what was happening when covid hit you got a efficiency effort which is important because we want the best efficiency the last hearing we had on the space subcommittee before the end of the last term chairman you weren't here yet but it was really important I mean we're looking at the bureaucracy driving us crazy in terms of sending people in outer space and we we love the idea of getting more people to
▶ 1:32:50the moon it's it's inspiring it's aspirational and that's important to our technology but I don't know if we can do it at the expense of people back home having heart palpitations if their school is still going to have special education when people aren't going to be able to work and these are my workers in Michigan you have to I mean I got a company called Detroit Flex they make these great tubes they go into the engines they were selling into Automotive for years
▶ 1:33:20and years and then one of these amazing Comm commcial space companies you know has access to it so I think that's how I wanted to use my five minutes here is to make that point in this audience of very dedicated individuals who are tied in to this Artemis which I don't want this program to flop um I wish we were talking about ways in which we could effectively use the dollar to keep it going to trim our bureaucracy
▶ 1:33:50to make us more efficient to have leadership but what I'm hearing from home is you got a you got a government that feels really unstable right now and we're Trustees of that government we're all you know everyone at this Das is an elected Trustee of that government so I'll be submitting the more technical questions for the record and I thank you gentlemen for your Ser your previous service and your time here today and I yield back thank you I now recognize a representative
▶ 1:34:20from California Mr f for his five minutes of questions you uh thank you Mr chairman um and thank you for hosting this important hearing today look forward to working with you on this committee um first I wanted to highlight uh I want to highlight my community's contributions to the ous program specifically at the Air Force research lab Laboratories rocket Lab at air Edwards Air Force Base uh blue origin and the Air Force have established a partnership where blue origin is able to use certain Air Force facilities to test blue Origins be7 engines this helps
▶ 1:34:51ensure the Artemis program is successful but also leverages the private sector's speed and Innovation and to meet uh the challenges ahead our nation needs more public and private Partnerships uh so that we can work together to achieve great things I did want to ask um I want to ask both of you uh in your testimonies you described the global competition uh the need to act with a sense of urgency um for America to win this uh Space Race especially with the competition coming China uh you described some of the the importance
▶ 1:35:21uh the you describe the importance leadership in space exploration uh in terms of our US economic National Security and scientific interests in light of uh my my colleagues just uh statement before maybe we can take a step back can you outline the importance uh to Everyday Americans why we need to engage why we need to win this this new space race well I think at at a very high level and pardon if it's academic is we need to we need to win it in order to make sure the environment we
▶ 1:35:52depend on space is critical to our economy space is critical to our military and if we're second in space then we're second in being able to shape a domain that our life depends on uh you can just imagine the number of ways you use space every day uh everything from your GPS to your evening news uh to your weather predictions uh to your Electrical Power Systems all these things that we have an infrastructure that we depend on so we need to protect the space environment we need to make sure the rules are there uh that are are conducive to our
▶ 1:36:22interests but at another level more at home in the united in United States and Industry uh space is the most important school you can go to that is in order to master things in space you have to master pretty much every aspect of technology and science to do well and then to bring that all together into a mission that involves humans is even more driving so it is something that drives your education that drives your ability to manage large scale systems it drives manufacturing uh it drives the ability to get people inspired to the Next
▶ 1:36:52Generation if you look at what China is doing in space it's for a number of reasons that are fairly self self-evident they want more influence they want to drive their industry they want to inspire uh their own population uh and they want to gain skills so they can dominate in other technical Fields um not not eological reasons and so we are in a large scale uh competition and struggle uh in the world and space is one of those things that gives us the tools necessary to win so I couldn't agree
▶ 1:37:22more uh America has to win uh this space race uh you you in your testimony mentioned that our missions can't be one and done they have to be repeatable and sustainable uh and you've you've kind of touched on on the regulatory burdens you've touched on barriers youve you've touched on acquisition streamlining I did want to ask specifically if there were specific regulations or specific Provisions that you could mention uh if we can dive into the weeds a little bit that we need to examine and I don't know if there's a a level of tiers
▶ 1:37:52of priority that would you would highlight and that goes to both of you if if both of you want to answer that um uh I think I'm sure we could bore everyone in the room by tearing down some of the some of the some of the regs I think the number one thing that I I would say is to push responsibility down and to the agencies and hold them accountable don't have a one-size uh fits-all take a scalpel not just a you know a grenade uh to those things and give the agencies both the leadership Direction uh and the top cover necessary to go and experiment I
▶ 1:38:22think uh as Dr dumbacher said uh we can actually do a lot of amazing things in getting stuff done if people think that they're not going to be penalized uh for trying and doing that so I think agency accountability I think pressing things down to a a lower level in the agencies and I think those might be questions that will come up uh in in Mr isan's hearing and Congressman I'm I'm fully with Dr Pace's answer I think uh we
▶ 1:38:53recently ly we're having the right kind of conversations about regulation for human space flight and other things via the FAA activities and some of the others that I've been familiar with and and we're we're working through that and I think uh we need to as as Scott has said give people the leeway and hold them accountable uh to go experiment and and this nation can accomplish great things uh I want to thank you for your your testimony and guidance
▶ 1:39:23my time is R out but this is critically important especially I think we need to tell uh the story of of how our lives our daily lives are impacted um with space and how we need to continue to invest and continue to be dominant in this in this uh Arena especially with the competition that comes from China um uh Mr chairman i y back thank you I recognize the representative from New York Miss Gillan for her five minutes of questions great well thank you thank you chairman Mike kidopolis uh my new fellow freshman and thank you to ranking
▶ 1:39:53member of fushi and thank you to our Witnesses I'm very much looking forward to working together in a bipartisan manner with my colleagues on the subcommittee to strengthen the American leadership in Space Mr dumbacher as you know the United States and China are in a race uh to get our astronauts back on the moon which has enormous Stakes for our national security I'm very concerned that because China uses its Space Program to conceal military intentions under the guise of research uh what are the consequences for our National
▶ 1:40:23Security if us and uh for the United States if China is the first to land crude Mission or even establish a lab on the moon well again as as we've discussed uh it's about the presence it's about being there and and by being there that's how you establish your value system your leadership and the rules of the road for our for our nation uh I think it's absolutely critical uh it's also critical even from a technical
▶ 1:40:54perspective and a programmatic perspective because we want to be the ones to help figure out the technologies that are so critical not just for what Artemis needs and what NASA needs but also for what our national security us space force and others are going to require on orbit propellant Depot Communications power position nav and tracking all of that we want to be in the Forefront so that we can build it and for the policy reasons of establishing the rules of the road via
▶ 1:41:24presence thank you um and just to follow up earlier in your testimony you talked about um making sure that we Congress gives you the fun funding you need to maintain and have our space program Excel um and making sure that we have the best and the brightest involved in our space program I'm curious we're lucky enough to have folks like my colleague uh beside me Mr Whitesides um who was a leader in our space program what can Congress do to make sure that we have a pipeline of real talent to get
▶ 1:41:55um our program where it needs to be and to be the future of space um I would point out it's been more than 20 years uh since the Congress passed the 2004 NASA Workforce bill which produced some liberalization allowing people to come in some more flexibilities uh I think a topic for uh the next administrator uh is a new NASA Workforce Bill uh to look at how maybe people can go more easily to Industry from industry back in to government in in a
▶ 1:42:25in a disciplined sort of way uh there's been a lot of changes and I know uh Dr duncker from his AA experience um I think if that gets folded into a NASA authorization Bill great but I think relooking at the NASA Workforce Bill uh after 20 years might be a good use thank you sir I yield back thank you I now recognize the representative from Utah Dr Kennedy for his five minutes of questions you're recognized thank you Mr chair it's an honor to be with you and with this committee it's uh
▶ 1:42:55very exciting thank you to the witnesses for being here uh to consider us going to the moon and Beyond so um in the state of Utah northr grum state-ofthe-art facilities are Central to the development of solid rocket boosters for some of the most ambitious missions we've embarked upon these boosters are key to propelling spacecraft like NASA's space launch system which is set to carry astronauts deeper into space than ever before including the plan missions to the Moon Under the Artemis program and eventually to March so Mr dumbacher if you would help me how will
▶ 1:43:25the Artemis technology and knowledge for the moon mission be leveraged for future missions to Mars and Beyond well uh the technology that we do for the Moon is is crit is essential for being able to go to Mars because one we're going to learn from a technology perspective the transportation systems as you've mentioned the communication the power the nav we need to realize something going to the Moon I'm days away from home going to Mars
▶ 1:43:56I'm months away it's 240,000 Mi versus 35 million so I have to learn not just the technical how to do the communications how to do the power how to do the environmental control and life support I also have to learn how to do the operations I have to learn where the decision- making needs to be because of the time delays in the communication uh and and that the astronauts will have to react on site and not be able to have as much help from home because of the time delay I need to think
▶ 1:44:26I need to work through all of that and I do that by operating at the Moon trying going through the new Mission scenarios and then eventually look going out to Mars with that knowledge my analogy for it is I don't take my Girl Scouts and boy scouts out to the Grand Canyon on their first camping trip I take them to the local backyard State Park uh and then I might go out to the local National Park Park before I take him to the Grand Canyon it's the same kind of thing
▶ 1:44:56where we need to learn along the way and the Moon is that stepping stone for us so that we can learn how to do those things and then go to Mars thank you for that answer and uh Dr Pace if I can ask you this question uh we're in the state of Utah privileged to have the space Dynamics laboratory at Utah State University at The sdl's Talented Workforce includes scientists engineers and business professionals dedicated to providing solutions that support All Mission phases from concept to completion Utah state has been working closely with NASA on the robotics portion of Artemis
▶ 1:45:27one of the programs they are working on with NASA's jet propulsion lab is specifically a heterodon o lunar miniature spectrometer go and say that three times fast looking for water on the moon which is an important uh function associated with man missions there are some major challenges that need to be overcome to go to Mars some close to the administration of publicly advocated for going straight to Mars bypassing the moon dismissing it since we have already been there so my question is is this a serious consideration by the administration or will the moon continue
▶ 1:45:57to be the immed immediate Focus well um since I'm an Academia I really can't speak for the administration uh you know on these things I would say that uh I would look to the guidance that the Congress has already laid out I would look to the existing space policy uh in spd1 and space policy for 2020 that's still there and I would think I would look to the logic of uh you know what we need to do to succeed so I think it's fine for people to to put push and say why can't we do this why can't we do that not simply to take things as a given
▶ 1:46:27so I think responding to those questions is perfectly fine uh but I think the stepping stone approach that that this Congress has done uh over a few decades uh Still Remains the right direction thank you and thank you for not speaking for the administration there's a lot on the left that seem to want to speak for the administration on a regular basis about what's happening around here but I appreciate your restraint and uh holding off on that a followup question on that if the moon continues to be a focus will emphasis be placed on the M or robot part of emis or will it be a balanced portfolio and either one of you if you have an opinion
▶ 1:46:57about that I'm open to it uh I think Congressman my thoughts on that are that it needs to be the balance program because I need to go figure out where the resources are how much is there and I can do a lot of this robotically and the and the proper Synergy between a robotic program and the human program is is how we get to the best benefit that I send the scouts out robotically and then I bring the humans and I think uh the balance portfolio is the proper answer thanks I love the Scout analogy I I enjoyed being
▶ 1:47:27a Boy Scout myself and it sounds like um you're doing good work for the young which actually is my final question is we've had two Utah student teams in the past two years who were funded under the big idea challenge which has a yearly theme to contribute to the future of the emis program with specific challenges in lunar operations the 2024 big idea team was from briam Young University my alma Moder times too and they developed an untethered and modular inflatable robot for lunar operations what can NASA do to enhance academic Partnerships which contribute to our mission to go to the Moon Mars and Beyond
▶ 1:47:58what in your opinion do you think about that uh I think I I will I will actually point to uh the office of stem engagement at Nasa has done a tremendous job over the last several years uh strategically and all the way through implementation of growing that capability uh they have done a masterful job of marshalling the resources doing it efficiently and quickly and and right now their hindrance is funding that's holding them back from
▶ 1:48:28being able to do more they we just need to do more thank you for those answers my time has expired Mr chair I'll yield back thank you Dr Kenny I know we're waiting for Mrs Ras uh she's on her way in her sing congresswoman from California we'll give her a little time no problem
▶ 1:49:11in California great she's good you back
▶ 1:50:05I now recognize representative from California Miss Ras for her five minutes of question welcome thank you Mr chair um for allowing me to wave on to today's hearing um in your space and Aeronautics subcommittee I have deep concerns about the Trump administration's attacks on our federal Workforce and how it will impact NASA and the Artemis campaign just outside my district is NASA's jet propulsion laboratory the space the space Workforce
▶ 1:50:36in and around my district understand the disruption and difficulty of layoffs in the space sector all too well after JPL laid off almost 850 people last year any reduction to the space Workforce will negatively impact our communities our future and our country's competitiveness in fact it was the team at JPL that brought a methane leak in my district to the Public's attention in 2020 jpl's
▶ 1:51:07report which used Airborne sensors to observe methane sources found that the station in my district had been leaking more than 10,000 cubic feet of methane per hour for the last couple of years equivalent to the emissions of 30,00 cars the administration's proposed NASA firings and federal funding frees will negatively affect NASA centers and federally funded research and development centers like JPL by cutting science
▶ 1:51:37programs and missions that are in operation inhibiting NASA's ability to push Innovative boundaries Mr dumbacher in your opening statement you talk about how our Workforce must be nurtured and how our strength is being able to bring out the best Minds from across the country in your experience in the Space Engineering industry what will happen to our nation's progress if the current Administration continues to move forward with their
▶ 1:52:07plans to reduce the space Workforce and their continued insistence on the removal of the word inclusion as a core value of NASA our Workforce uh the national asset that we have built in built and invested requires uh one to know that there is stability for their careers and for their lives and by us continuing
▶ 1:52:38in the bamal bipartisan way that this Congress and spd1 and other things have have set the constancy of purpose that's that's an ele that's an important element then the funding has to come to go execute the programs and what's important for our Workforce is for them to see that they have real challenges real problems to go solve and they'll go do it and then they will learn and we will and our society will reap the benefits that that's the important part and we also have to
▶ 1:53:08realize that in this Global competition we need to tap all of the resources across this country to be able to compete with others just because China has a larger population than we do we graduate 10 to 20% of the number of Engineers on an annual basis at the undergraduate level compared to the Chinese we need we're not going to win the numbers game what we need to do is get the perspective the talent and tap into those
▶ 1:53:38communities that we haven't tapped into before to help make sure we're bringing all of the talent to Bear across this country thank you I agree you know as you may know I'm the only Latina in Congress who is an Eng engineer I'm also the co-chair of the bipartisan Congressional stem education caucus and you know ensuring that all Americans especially women and girls of color can see the first woman and the first person of color land on the Moon is essential to the vision of
▶ 1:54:08this campaign uh your your written opening statement mentioned that only 10% of our engineering graduates are Hispanic in your view what needs to be done to improve this number uh what what I've learned congresswoman is that uh number one they have to see the opportunity and they have to see themselves as being able to accomplish that opportunity and they see it through their mentors and people like them that are actually are the astronauts
▶ 1:54:39are the program managers are the engineers are the scientists uh even the attorneys and they need to see that capability and then their networks their support structure their families their friends their relatives need to also understand the opportunity and see that as an opport to help build it and then we also need to help them through their educational Journey because it's a challenge uh and it always will be uh and we need to help them through that at the end
▶ 1:55:09making sure that they see the opportunity and the real challenges and the real problems they get to solve thank you you know as you can tell these issues are personal for me um for my state for my district I agree that you know you know family um teachers Educators all need to be part of the solution um thank you and I yield back thank you and I believe u Congressman Collins is in route so I'll give him a little bit of time as we did for congresswoman revest as well thank
▶ 2:00:20e e
▶ 2:01:14I now recognize the representative from Georgia Mr Collins for his five minutes of questions goodness thank you Mr chair um and I appreciate you giving me a few minutes to get in here somehow I've only been coming here two years but I got lost any might figure rurn no um I kind of wanted to to tee off of a couple things that y'all were saying in your opening testimony and I also want to kind of uh intertwine that with a hearing that we had yesterday and natural resources
▶ 2:01:44because I think they kind of go hand in hand and as far as uh my background I'm a small business person been entrepreneur all my life uh and just started this in the 118th Congress so I like to look at things from from a small business and an entrepreneurship type of of frame and and I know in today's age that we are we are in a different light as the chairman said just not productivity and efficiency but but saving the American taxpayer money being productive but yet being efficient at the same time and and we know
▶ 2:02:14that Artemis has had a few setbacks and a few problems but I just want to go and and take a look at uh and what's out there and what's available and and and where the world is going and yesterday when we had our hearing there were there were two companies there and and I don't know if y'all y'all may not know them or may know them one of them was Astro Forge who is doing deep space uh exploration and the other one is star paath and and star path I
▶ 2:02:44thought had a really unique look on on what they're and they're they're simply a mining company and we're talking about mining critical minerals and and in this case uh rocket propellant Fuel and and their whole Niche was to make it cheaper to get to the moon in back um and in their words there were going to be a gas station on the moon you know the the the rocket ship SpaceX whoever comes lands NASA comes and lands and and while they're doing their business uh people like
▶ 2:03:15starpath will check the tires the oil and fill them up with uh with propellant fuel to get them back which we all know would save weight and save fuel and and so what I kind of want to and I guess Dr Pace I I'll ask you this question then then I want to ask both of you the same thing but uh you know because NASA programs they often do struggle with with staying on schedule and and staying on budget and uh so what what is needed and and I can go over some other examples on some other committees where
▶ 2:03:45we do Appropriations every year for the same project and it just gets really crazy because it doesn't work um but what are some realistic budget program architectural things within NASA that that may help sure um I think something that uh was done in the U uh in the last Trump Administration we were trying to uh get the NASA budget up uh to roughly where it was uh at the end of the Cold War and if we had the same budget power today that we did
▶ 2:04:15around 1992 the NASA budget would be 30 to 33 billion so there's been a long-term decline in the NASA budget over time when talking about that the the push back that I got was great happy to see more money going to NASA but show me where the Innovation is give me something that's Innovative and new not just another program of record I mean that that was really the challenge so I think if you're challenging NASA to say okay you need more resources first tell me how are you going to do this in a more sort of innovative kind of
▶ 2:04:45way uh I think one of the ways you save money is by thinking about those things that only the government can do versus those things the private sector can do uh just like we have a US Geological Survey to go out and do basic information I think that NASA has a role in doing basic science understanding what resources might be there on the moon but as soon as possible transition over to where NASA simply buys those resources buys it as a service from these kind of commercial companies so the way you do it one is by pushing for Innovation
▶ 2:05:15and two making sure that NASA only does those things that really only the government can do and if at all possible to give the private sector a shot they should get that shot so uh let me I'm going to come from my personal experience uh Scott just said the things that NASA ought to be doing when they're doing them do it with the right siiz team with a team that has the leeway to go execute on that program and has the discipline to manage that program
▶ 2:05:45and to make it happen on the schedule and to meet the technical objectives I have personal experience that I managed personally and had a small team that delivered on the objectives on schedule 10% under budget and it was the first vertical Landing rocket that this country had done and that Workforce then went to SpaceX and origin it can be done with the right discipline the right people the right leeway and the right discipline
▶ 2:06:16right and and I would agree with you and I think that's where I was alluding to like with even with starpath is that if I burned five minutes holy cow I knew I talked slow being from the South but but but and I think that's where I was going with things like starpath I mean they're talking about they they could potentially be on the Moon by 2026 that's their goals and to set up and start Mining and anytime you can take a public and I didn't know what else you saw out there public private Partnerships that uh that might be available that that that we need to be looking at up
▶ 2:06:46from up here so well I might have I see that I had another question but than you Congressman Collins all right and with that um that is all of our members uh here today I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and candidate opinions as well thank you um I want to also thank the members for their thoughtful questions and I look forward to working with my ranking member as we proceed this year I I appreciate the thoughtful comments today and the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments
▶ 2:07:16and written questions from members and with that this hearing is adjourned Mana minut I don't know what you're
▶ 2:08:50e for