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▶ 0:08:32you ready Bud okay subcommittee on disability assistance and Memorial Affairs will come to order before we start um I've have just been told that one of our colleagues Mr Sylvester Turner he's actually at from Texas was the former mayor of Houston passed away I'm not sure if it was last night or this morning um but if may we please have a moment of silence for our following
▶ 0:09:11colleague thank you our thoughts and prayers are extended to the Turner family not how I want to start my day but all right thank you all for joining us today we're here to discuss three bills that would each and state criminal penalties for anyone who takes advantage of veterans who are willing who are filing claims for dis disability for VA disability compensation last week I personally heard from veterans Advocates testifying on the Bad actors for
▶ 0:09:42charging $30,000 or more to assist Veterans for filing their claims I think we can all agree that veterans should never ever have to pay $30,000 or more for assisting for assistance filing a VA disability claim compensation VA disability compensation claim I have also heard from veterans that they want the freedom to choose who helps them file their initial claims under the current law companies are not allowed to charge a fee for assisting veterans with claims at the start of the claims process limiting their options
▶ 0:10:12and today's hearing we will be discussing hr1 1656 the plus act which would reinstate fines and jail time for companies that violate laws regarding representation of veterans pursuing VA benefit claims the plus act would also allow VA accredited agents and attorneys to charge a limited fee to assist veterans with filing their initial claims for VA disability compensation second HR 1732 the guard act would reinstate fines for violations of the law regarding the representation of veterans before
▶ 0:10:42VA third the discussion draft on today's agenda would reinstate fines and jail time for violating the laws governing the representation of veterans before VA discussion draft would also allow VA accredited agents and attorneys to charge a limited fee while assisting veterans with filings their with fil on initial VA benefits claims while prohibiting fees for certain types of initial claims I believe that regardless of the bill anyone supports we must ensure that the veterans is at the center of the changes we make
▶ 0:11:12I look forward to a productive discussion today about the three bills on our agenda we have not currently received va's views on these bills secretary Collins has only recently began leading the VA the second largest Federal agency in the nation in my opinion he is still and currently getting his SE leg underneath him because the VA did not have its views cleared in time for our hearing it was not in the best interest for of any everyone's time to have them come and testify because we do need va's views we will keep the record open for them
▶ 0:11:42it is not uncommon for us to receive va's views after hearings and I think the witnesses who have joined us today will understand I now yield to the ranking member for his opening remarks thank you Mr chairman I also Echo your initial sentiments for our colleague Sylvester Turner from Texas for his family Not only was was he a distinguished member of this body also a very well-respected mayor across the country for his his work there olos um Mr chairman I appreciate you all having this hearing appreciate everybody for being here today I'm here for one reason today it's not to protect
▶ 0:12:13Turf any turf wars it's not to defend the status quo it's not to whine and complain about things that don't matter for veterans daily lives I'm here for one reason to ensure that our veterans can access their earned benefits without delay and without being ripped off now I want to get this right which is why I think it's important to hear from everyone however I also want to point out that we have one critical absence to day Mr chairman you mentioned the VA is not here and I understand that there's a new secretary uh we did have a receive written testimony from them and
▶ 0:12:43I don't think it actually said all that much it said they're reviewing their bills they couldn't give their views at this time and I again I know they're new but it's hard to hold a legislative hearing without knowing where the VA stands on these bills and I think that's particularly important right now because they have been so supportive of the Guard act in the past and I hope their absence in reviewing this bill is not a signal that they are doing a 180 because if the Trump Administration is now going to support these companies who've been fleecing veterans out of hundreds of millions of
▶ 0:13:13taxpayer dollars money that is meant to help our veterans then I do hope they will have uh they will show up in front of this committee and tell us why now let's get to the topic at hand my goal and I think one that is shared by all of my colleagues here is to alleviate the circumstances that lead any veteran to feel as though they have to pay to access the benefits they've earned We should strive for a process that doesn't necessitate paid assistance that is simple to navigate that is quick to deliver an outcome and that results in a pro veteran decision
▶ 0:13:43I think anything short of that is window dressing but don't take that to me Mr chairman that I'm not interested in cracking down on those who are violating the law quite the opposite in fact it's clear that back in 2006 Congress made a mistake when it repealed penalties for assisting with disability claims without a accreditation I don't think anyone could have anticipated a cottage claims industry so brazenly flouting the law that cottage industry it's not so quaint anymore in fact we're talking about numerous large companies that are siphoning off hundreds of millions of dollars a year
▶ 0:14:14in veterans benefits companies that are attracting Venture Capital funding and working on Wall Street offerings all to make a quick Dollar on what has for decades been a service I understand we live in a in a country where everyone's trying to to make a living and if people can find a way to make a buck they will even if that means profiting from veterans disabilities unfortunately these companies have Deep Pockets which they use to buy influence so we've been at a stalemate here for years between those of us want
▶ 0:14:44to crack down on this illegal behavior and those who want to bless it I think we're going to hear a lot about veteran choice and systemic capacity at today's hearings I want to point out that there is a great deal of choice already with thousands of accredited Representatives able to help not to mention va's long-standing duty to assist and vsso capacity is robust and growing especially with the new non-traditional vsos coming on boards such as tribes and labor unions so this isn't about taking away veterans choices for me there's a
▶ 0:15:14lot of choices out there I want veterans to have their choice I want veterans to be able to get again the benefits they have earned these are earned benefits for our veterans in exchange for their services this is about for me removing unaccredited unregulated CL sharks who Target V Target Veterans for those benefits we'll also hear that these companies assert they provide better faster service to veteran in fact that's one of their their principal lures okay I do understand that I
▶ 0:15:44understand why that could be enticing to veteran uh one the VA is processing claims faster two let's make sure that these these appeals aren't so attractive anymore that the veterans are actually able to to access the benefits they've earned uh there's been a lot of robust hiring at the VBA facilitated by the PCT act let's make these claims easier to navigate that's
▶ 0:16:14what we're all looking for here um I think most troubling those is we're going to witness some Olympic level displays of mental gymnastics today from those companies trying to rationalize how their activity isn't illegal when it when it is and has been for decades they have the option to be accredited but have chosen not to do so which by the way the accreditation is free so if the process is cumbersome we should prioritize a finding a solution to streamline
▶ 0:16:44it so we can offer more choices to Veterans while keeping their earned benefits where they belong with them I agree with the chairman it's ridiculous that a veteran is paying $330,000 to have somebody navigate a claim for them I think it's ridiculous that the claims are too difficult to access that veterans feel they need someone to help them and I think it's the job of this commun committee to help our veterans so I want to take a step back actually work through what works
▶ 0:17:15best for them absent of consideration of what works best for the companies who are purporting to support our veterans but who are in fact taking tens of thousands of dollars sometimes from each veteran and hundreds of millions of dollars overall I yield back thank you Mr McGarvey this morning we have colleagues who will be testifying from the Das about the bills they have sponsored General Bergman sir you're now recognized for five minutes to speak on the plus act thank
▶ 0:17:45you Mr chairman and thank you to our Witnesses for being here today and to Chairman Bost and the entire VA committee staff for their work on the issue thus far I'd like to start by stating I firmly believe that everyone present today on both sides of the aisle have the same fundamental goal to prevent and punish bad actors seeking to take advantage of veterans and to ensure that veterans are able to quickly and easily receive the disability benefits they deserve Congress
▶ 0:18:15must take action to ensure that veterans looking for help navigating the VA disability benefit system are not defrauded or otherwise taken advantage of however this cannot come at the cost of removing veteran agency and choice it would be unacceptable for Congress to push a heavy-handed ban on the entire industry of legitimate businesses often veteran owned that have helped thousands of veterans get the claims
▶ 0:18:46they deserve the Plus for veterans act which I introduced along with my friend luk kah from California will preserve the right for veterans to get help from the private sector while preparing VA applications by incorporating these businesses into the VA accreditation system all while imposing penalties on Bad actors that seek to exploit veterans by incorporating these businesses into VA accreditation veterans will have protection against the abuse and recourse
▶ 0:19:16if they are taken advantage of and VA will have the teeth it needs to punish bad actors contrary to what some have claimed no veteran would ever be forced to pay a fee to obtain the benefits they've earned through their service under the plus act in fact the bill creates new requirements for veterans to be informed of free options for getting assistance with their disability benefit applications for instance through the vsos this is on top of the new safeguards in the bill that prevent
▶ 0:19:46High fees require informed consent in clear language and prevent conflicts of interest between agents and doctors who provide medical evidence there will ALS also has been new additions and improvements made to the bill text following constructive feedback we have received over the past two years most notably the bill now establishes a system of provisional accreditation that will allow new agents to begin assisting veterans in a timely manner while ensuring the veteran
▶ 0:20:16remains protected from abuse it also establishes steep penalties for any malpractice by agents with provisional accreditation including a fine of up to I remain open to constructive feedback and goodfaith dialogue as we work to craft the best legislation possible in regard to concerns related to the feap structure included in the plus act I would like to make the following points clear first any imposed caps on fees by
▶ 0:20:46accredited agents must be set at a level designated to protect veterans from abuse not at a level that effectively sets the price for the entire market and forces out highquality goodfaith businesses secondly there is existing Federal precedent justifying a feap like in the bill for example the Social Security administration's feap for assistance on disability claims is currently set at
▶ 0:21:17$9,200 and yet assisting with VA claims is far more complicated in time consuming than with Social Security Social Security disability claims do not have to prove service connection there's no 0 to 100 disability rating like with the VA and the requirements for obtaining National Social Security advisor certification are far lower than that of the VA accreditation it would be nonsensical to impose a cap at or below that of social securities
▶ 0:21:47given all the additional complications and costs involved in helping navigate the VA finally the projections created through the plus act like providing information on Free assistance options and incorporating all agents into VA accreditation are fundamentally designed to provide veterans with a fair and well understood choice if a veteran decides that they would like to pay a fee in order to get easier faster and more
▶ 0:22:17personalized assistance in filing their claims who are we to tell them that they can't veterans should be allowed to choose whatever option they decide to do in their best interest filing on their own going through a vso or through a private business and adding overwhelmingly overly Draconian feaps will only limit the number of choices available to them the plus act for
▶ 0:22:48veterans recognizes that veterans are capable of choosing what options are best for them when seeking assistance in obtaining benefits denying this right is not protect ing veterans it's infant this is a strong word a lot of syllables for a guy like me infantilizing it makes them feel like little babies how's that how's that I mean you know that's marine and navy speak but I I don't know if the air force that you get it right all right I look forward by the way I'm have to make sure that that is never in a speech
▶ 0:23:18again I'm gonna have to look forward can I close now you should let the enlisted okay that with that I heal back yes sir thank you General uh Mr Papa sir you recognize for five minutes thank you very much chairman Latrell and ranking member McGarvey for your opening comments and general Bergman for yours as well on your legislation uh I want to um share with everyone today about um information about my bill the guard VA benefits act uh this committee has heard me as and many of my colleagues and
▶ 0:23:48veteran service organizations talk about this bill and reference the troubling increase in unaccredited Representatives that are looking to profit off veterans disability claims they pedal a for-profit model that veterans can receive free of charge from veteran service organizations like those who we will hear from today one Navy Corman we heard from uh paid a company $88,000 to help her access her disability benefits after she left the service another Navy service member said he was charged almost $10,000 for just
▶ 0:24:186 hours of virtual coaching that he later said he could have found online on his own so it's alarming because the more third parties that have a hand in a veteran claim the more potential exists for Fraud and Abuse which I'm sure we all agree we want to prevent so to provide veterans with qualified and competent help and protect them from individuals who may be targeting their benefits VA has long operated an accreditation discipline and fees program to provide oversight of those who assist
▶ 0:24:48with fee preparation under current law VA accredit representatives are the only individuals authorized to prepare present or prosecute VA claims on a veteran's behalf unfortunately in 2006 Congress decided to strip VA of its ability to penalize those who violate the long-standing prohibitions on Preparation presentation and prosecution of a VA claim before VA since then the claims consultant companies have exploited this dangerous loophole to Rak in millions of dollars from veterans across the country this bill is simple it
▶ 0:25:18will reinstate criminal penalties for unaccredited claims representatives does not create new Criminal acts nor does it change the well-established definitions of preparation presentation and prosecution So to that point I want to be clear the Gathering or development of third-party medical evidence has long been excluded from the definitions of preparation presentation and prosecution the guard act does not change that Dynamic nor would I propose to I also want to address another argument that some have raised that the guard act would somehow limit
▶ 0:25:48the choices that veterans have with their claims some companies have even hired expensive lobbyists and lawyers to argue that this bill would violate First Amendment rights nothing could be further from the truth this legislation does not ban a veteran from choosing whoever they want when seeking help with their VA claim if veterans want options they can talk to any number of professional well-trained veteran service officers they can seek help from vsos like the VFW the American Legion and others and if veterans want a paid option they're free to turn to agents
▶ 0:26:19and attorneys who are accredited for help the difference is that all of these individuals are accredited they go through that process they're subject to the oversight of va in the office of general counsel and it's exactly that oversight that for-profit claims Consulting companies are seeking to continue to avoid um so these claims Consulting companies um they know what they're doing is beyond the scope of the law and they have spent thousands and thousands of dollars lobbying against this bill they also know that there's nothing um stripping
▶ 0:26:49them or preventing them from becoming accredited today except that they will not make as much money under uh accred unaccredited uh if they become credited so um I just want to say that I look forward to working with my colleagues on developing uh a permanent solution to this I think it must include uh ensuring that uh we reinstate criminal penalties um and I look forward to hearing from uh folks on our panel about this and other bills under consideration today I I want to commend the continued support of veteran service
▶ 0:27:19organizations uh in assisting the veteran community and in speaking out strongly for this legislation uh we have uh strong bipartisan support in the Congress the bill has been reintroduced uh and I'm looking forward to working with my colleagues on a solution that's going to protect veterans make sure that they can keep their earned benefits um and uh ensure that we are moving forward in a way uh that is worthy of the service and sacrifice of so many in this room and across the country so with that yield back my time thank you Mr papis it's good to have
▶ 0:27:49you in here again sir it is our practice we will forego a round of questioning for the members any questions may be submitted for the record I now invite our second panel of witnesses to the table if they are
▶ 0:28:27present e
▶ 0:28:58welcome everyone yes Mr Colonel go like this it's on the record it's got to be right apologies thank you
▶ 0:29:33sir now welcome and thank you for joining us today our second panel includes Mr Josh Smith Chief Executive Officer of veterans benefits guide Lieutenant Colonel Bill Taylor co-founder and Chief Operating Officer of veterans Guardian VA claim Consulting Mr Peter oor president of the National Association for veterans rights Miss Diane Boyd rber National organizations of veterans Advocates and Mr Pat Murray acting executive director of Washington's office Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United
▶ 0:30:03States I ask all the witnesses please rise and raise your hand do you Solly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God thank you be seated let the record reflect that all Witnesses answered in the affirmative Mr Smith you recognized for five minutes sir to deliver your opening testimony my name is Joshua Smith and I am the CEO and co-founder of veteran benefits guide I would like
▶ 0:30:33to thank chairman lutr and ranking member McGarvey and other committee members for providing me this opportunity to share my perspective I'm testifying today in opposition to the guard VA benefits act and in strong support of the Plus for veterans act I want to thank representative Brigman for introducing the plus act and representatives Mas and cell for co-sponsoring the bill vbg also supports the discussion draft that has been shared and believes it represents a will compromise while well intended the guard act would severely and unfairly limit choices veterans have been seeking
▶ 0:31:04assistance with their claims instead of only targeting Bad actors it would make illegal for veterans to get advice or assistance from any private services including honorable companies like vbg we believe the veterans need more help in getting their benefits not more limitations on their options and choice in contrast the plus Act and the discussion draft provide the right balance between establishing guard rails to protect veterans from Bad actors and ensuring private companies are allowed to continue serving veterans each of these bills includes strict disclosure requirements fee caps and privacy protections that we support
▶ 0:31:35opponents of the plus Act and the discussion draft inaccurately claim that organizations such as ours choose not to be accredited this is false vbg would welcome the opportunity to become accredited the plus Act and the discussion draft legislation would resolve this issue by providing a pathway for accreditation allowing vbg and other good actors to come under the oversight of the VA the fact that vbg is not currently accredited does not mean we are violating federal law we provide specially trained case managers to guide veterans through the claim process but we do not act as a veterans
▶ 0:32:05agent or representative and we do not present before the VA We Believe Federal legislation is needed now to resolve this issue different versions of the Guard act and plus act have been introduced in at least 30 states without a federal res solution the result will be a chaotic Patchwork of State legislation our nation's veterans are being harmed every day by this chaos and gridlock is allowed to continue this is not a partisan is in states where these bills are being considered we have heard from Democrats and Republicans expressing a desire to reach a compromise that both protects veterans and
▶ 0:32:35preserves choice in addition to being the CEO of vbg I am also a Marine Corps veteran and a former VA employee at the VA I witnessed firsthand that veterans were being denied benefits they earned that is why I left the VA with my wife Lauren created vbg to help guide veterans through this complicated process we have grown our company and have now more than 200 employees with offices and Nevada and California roughly 80% of our employees are veterans or immediate family members of veterans and we employ former VA Personnel
▶ 0:33:05like myself helping to ensure we keep upto-date with VA regulations and training it is clear that our service is needed despite their best efforts veteran service organizations do not have enough manpower or resources to keep up with the demand for help in Congressional testimony the National Association of County Veteran service officers acknowledged that they face disparities and Staffing levels technology education and Outreach and have become even more acute in recent years and that they are scrambling to meet an influx of requests from Veterans for support
▶ 0:33:36in fact more than 70% of our clients first navigated the process with the help of a vsso they were either denied their full benefits or felt the process was taken too long continuing to claims vbg sole focus is getting on the getting the veterans claim right the first time avoiding the need of a lengthy and costly appeal the value we bring to our veteran clients is best reflected in their own words Leo an Air Force veteran from Nevada stated the following and I quote there are some organizations out there that say don't go to these companies
▶ 0:34:07that have to pay for that you have to pay for you should be doing it on your own and my argument is I did go on my own and try to file my claim and I did not get help many people including vsos promised to help me but they didn't actually help it wasn't until I found vbg that I got the rating I deserve if it's my money it should be my choice what I do with it I want every veteran to have the ability to make that choice end quote with reasonable guard rails in place we believe that veterans should be free to contact with whom they wish for help this was the guiding principle
▶ 0:34:37in 2006 when Congress loosened restrictions on Veterans being able to to pay for help with their appeal claims it should be the same guiding principle today thank you for considering my testimony I'll be happy to answer any questions thank you Mr Smith Colonel Taylor you're now recognized for five minutes sir good morning chairman Latrell ranking member McGarvey and members of the subcommittee my name is William Taylor and I am the co-founder of veterans Guardian a West Point graduate and a 23-year army veteran with six operational deployments I'm proud to have
▶ 0:35:07served my country and co-founded one of the largest veteran-owned and operated companies helping veterans navigate the VA claims process in my written testimony I've included a detailed description of my military service and my company but for now I'd like to focus dive right into the issues the bottom line is we are veterans helping veterans we provide a valuable service and our commit to serving veterans candidly I am frustrated to have my integrity and honor regularly qu called into question by those who labeled me a claim shark simply because I use a different
▶ 0:35:37approach than the traditional model and that approach is often preferred by veterans I have remained committed to finding a compromise that modernizes accreditation and ensures veterans have choice and claims representation I once again extend an offer to all entities at this table to work together and find ways to compromise without resorting to mudslinging the unfort forunate reality is that many veterans face difficulties navigating the VA disability process it cannot be ignored that there are currently over 935,000 claims awaiting adjudication by
▶ 0:36:08the VA contrary to the Views under the Biden VA the current systems do not meet the needs of veterans veterans need more options not less to address veterans needs they should be able to pursue their claim in the manner that best serves them with full knowledge of all available options at any step in the process including free and fee based options I'd like to address the allegations that my company is breaking the law nothing could be further from the truth section 591 of title 38 contains the foundational rule governing claims assistance
▶ 0:36:38it states that no individual may act as an agent or attorney in the preparation presentation or prosecution of any claim under laws administered by the VA unless such individual has been recognized for such purposes by the secretary the agent or attorney qualifier is also included in the statutory limitation on when fees may be charged for assistance under section 5904 veterans Guardian does not act in either role we do not employee attorneys so that category can be set aside our employees do not act as agents we
▶ 0:37:08provide advice to our clients but we do not file claims we do not interact with the VA on the veterans behalf we do not represent the veteran before the VA for those reasons we are not acting as an agent or attorney as required to meet the federal restriction on claims assistance we also do not violate restrictions on assignment of benefits veterans Guardian never acquires a right to receive our clients VA benefits which is what the law prohibits rather clients pay us a fee equivalent to five times the increase in monthly benefits obtained
▶ 0:37:38using our help the fact that the amount of Veteran pays veterans Guardian is based on the increase in benefits does not mean that the company acquires the right to receive those benefits from either the VA or the veteran a veteran can pay fees to Veterans Guardian out of sources that are completely segregated from benefits distributed by the VA and once they start re receiving benefits they can pay our fees in a lump sum or on a flexible schedule that is independent from the va's payment timeline in other words veterans pay a fee for our service they do not transfer their benefits to us
▶ 0:38:09even though our business is compliant with current law it's become clear to me that maintaining the status quo is not sustainable for all parties involved divisive debates over the years have not served veterans our focus should be on finding solutions that make the system work better for veterans hr1 1656 introduced by General bergerman and Cong Korea does just that it would allow companies like mine to become accredited rather than legislating us out of existence it improves oversight and ensures veterans are receiving competent assistance it provides veterans the
▶ 0:38:39freedom to make informs informed decisions on how they want to pursue their claims the HVAC committee discussion draft is also well intentioned and a step in the right direction and we have provided amendments for consideration that would enable our full throttled support as for the guard act we support the intentions of the bill but the execution is flawed and has failed to receive a markup in 6 years despite what some may allege there is no sweeping momentum for guard style bills in the states guard style bills were defeated in 20 States in 2024
▶ 0:39:10in the last two years only two states have passed laws that fully deny veterans the choice to use a private Company New Jersey in 2023 and Maine in 2024 both laws are being challenged in court while Congress is certainly not bound by the developments in the states I believe conveying what's factually occurring in the States is important I look forward to a constructive discussion regarding the bills on today's agenda and how all of us should be working together to address the issues that veterans face and to provide veterans with more options and protections
▶ 0:39:40from predatory practices I look forward to remaining engaged in working with you your staffs and the other parties as we address these important issues for our nation's veterans thank you and I'm happy to take questions thank you col thank you haor uh Mr o r sir you recognized for 5 minutes thank you Mr chairman ranking member members of the committee I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today my name is Peter oror and I'm the president of the National Association for veteran rights
▶ 0:40:11naer former acting secretary and Chief of Staff of the Department of Veterans Affairs a veteran of the Navy and the Air Force and I'm honored to be here to provide testimony addressing the legislation that your committee is considering today for the past four years I've been part of a critical conversation one that should be centered on Veterans rights yet instead became a Battleground over whether they should have the freedom to choose Alternatives outside the Department of Veterans Affairs or the traditional vso model when seeking their service connected disability benefits in a world
▶ 0:40:41evolving at Breakneck speed it's truly astonishing to me that some would argue against applying Technology Innovation and new ideas to improve veteran services but here we are clinging to outdated systems resisting progress and defending the past at the expense of the over these four over those four years those who dare defend the notion of private sector assistance many of whom are veterans themselves have been vilified slandered and relentlessly attacked by the very institutions supposed to support and protect
▶ 0:41:11them I have to ask why do these groups believe they alone should dictate this conversation and believe me they do I was there in the 2023 Hill Summit when these groups shouted down a veteran who was describing his long agonizing struggle to obtain a correct disability rating I read op-eds from the same veterans groups that shamelessly accuse their fellow Veterans of Fraud and even worse wrongfully painting them as criminals while simultaneously pushing legislation that would actually criminalize the assistance these veterans provide
▶ 0:41:41their fellow brothers and sisters I've personally been accused of running a criminal organization by senior members of veterans groups that oppose our position a position that simply stands for veterans choice I have spoken with countless lawmakers across the United States who relay to me the half truths and self-serving attacks that they have heard from those who want to maintain their Monopoly over this process but why 2021 brought the first signs of resistance to the industry but the oldest of these companies had already
▶ 0:42:11been operating for nearly seven years when the first version of the Guard Act was introduced in the Senate some of these companies heard the rhetoric then and simply believed that there was a misunderstanding that if they just explained why veterans were choosing to pay for these Services if they just told the St stories they were hearing from veterans all concerns would be alleviated but the companies never were given a fair chance to tell these stories unfortunately opponents of veterans Choice many of them are here today have taken a divisive me first approach to debating
▶ 0:42:42this topic at the expense of a veteran first approach the results have been predictably unproductive because both sides have fought to have an utter stalemate and an unfortunate inaction forced honorable companies to take matters into their own hands from this action companies in the private benefit space created naer to fill the accountability void that remained From the Ashes of this long and unrelenting fight and despite all these efforts to destroy the industry veterans are still utilizing these private companies veterans
▶ 0:43:12choose these companies because they're tired of being let down by a giant bureaucracy and they choose these companies because they're tired of hearing excuses many of these companies have helped tens of thousands of veterans and have thousands of positive reviews that describe the quality and satisfaction that veterans have with these companies they are truly accountable to the veterans that they serve because veterans Choice has been resoundingly positive policy and because president Trump's agenda seek Solutions of tomorrow to solve the problems of yesterday there's only one piece of
▶ 0:43:42legislation that will be discussed that meets this definition the legislation is the plus act which preserves veterans Choice creates guard rails and Common Sense rules that put veterans needs first this is why Naver enthusiastically supports the plus act in closing this industry has grown over the past decade employing thousands of veterans including many veterans and has helped tens of thousands of veterans secure their correct service connected disability rating this didn't happen because veterans are being misled or defrauded let me be clear we're talking about
▶ 0:44:12veterans they're not naive they're not being fooled into seeking this help no veterans are making conscious informed decisions to seek help outside the va's current system and no one should be outraged that they now have a choice the real question isn't whether these choices should exist it's how we ensure that they work for veterans not against them my hope is that both sides of this debate can come together to pass Common Sense legislation like the plus act so that we can move forward work as partners and take the next step of challenges facing our nation's
▶ 0:44:42past and present War Fighters thank you and I appreciate answer any questions thank you Mr oor Mr Robert you're recognized for five minutes thank you chairman Latrell ranking member McGarvey and members of the subcommittee Nova appreciates the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee and share our expertise regarding VA accreditation and ethical representation of veterans our accredited members live work hire and represent veterans family members survivors and caregivers in your States and districts
▶ 0:45:12many are veterans military spouses or members of Veteran or military families title 38 of the US code is clear that only accredited persons May assist veterans with their claims and appeals moreover only accredited individuals should be lawfully allowed to assist veterans because it provides for regulation of those individuals and recourse for veterans un acredited claims Consultants want you to codify the business mod model they have used for years in violation of title 38 today's Hearing Centers
▶ 0:45:43on whether the law should be changed to allow a veteran to hire a representative at the initial claim stage and if so what is the most veteran Centric way to do so since providing veterans with the right of J IAL review in 1988 Congress has decided three times to expand the conditions under which veterans can hire accredited attorneys and agents for representation before VA each time Congress amended the triggering event but left the basic fee model intact most recently
▶ 0:46:13in 2017 when passing the AMA Congress declined to move the triggering event to initial claims why because VA has long maintained it must have an opportunity to decide an initial claim before paid repres presentation is available this is based on the statutory requirement that VA must assist the veteran in developing the evidence to support an initial claim which is at the heart of the non-adversarial process should Congress conclude that the time is right to expand choices for paid assistance to Veterans
▶ 0:46:44the simplest option is to again move the line by revising 594 to allow for charging at the initial claim stage such an amendment discussed at length in our written statement is most veteran Centric Nova does not support charging veterans prospective fees that would frequently result in a veteran owing more than they receive in their retro payment Nova continues to support guard and the return of penalties to the statute we also support the provisions of plus and the discussion draft that emphasize title 38 preempts
▶ 0:47:14the patchwork of disperate State Bills currently under consideration that proposed to regulate this area Nova does not support any system that would allow for unaccredited Assistance or would create tears of accredited Representatives who handle only initial claims or only post initi initial decision work such a model would force a veteran who is completely happy with a representative to seek a new one for further assistance if VA does not fully Grant the claim which is a regular occurrence
▶ 0:47:44this is inefficient ineffective for veterans and the opposite of choice unfortunately we must again address absurd charges made against our members these companies are attempting to distract you with uninformed and mislead accusations that attorneys and agents purposely delay cases to earn higher fees let's be let's be clear this is against va's standards of conduct VA can cancel the accreditation of anyone who delays a proceeding without good cause State bars can discipline their members veterans who believe
▶ 0:48:15their accredited representative has violated standards or does not deserve a fee has due process and recourse through VA and through the state bars there is currently no due process or recourse for veterans who have been harmed by unaccredited actors let's put the intentional delay myth to bed once and for all the reality is the VA claims adjudication process takes time according to testimony these companies have been assisting veterans with claims for a decade there's been in fact no appreciable reduction in the need for
▶ 0:48:45our members assistance appealing adverse decisions and also no proof these companies model or involvement has promoted greater accuracy or reduced any backlogs Nova has worked for many years with VA Congress and other stakeholders to improve the adjudication process we push for Quality And Timely decisions for veterans and have appeared before this committee several times to offer information and solutions we remain committed to continued collaboration on these efforts finally Nova will be holding
▶ 0:49:15a conference this September here in DC we usually invite your staff to stop by and sit in on any sessions of Interest please consider this an open invitation to all of you to come meet Nova members from your States and hear firsthand about what they do to improve the lives of our nation's veterans family members survivors and caregivers at every level of the claims and appeals process thank you again for the opportunity today and I would be happy to answer any questions you have thank you Mr Robert Mr Murray sir you recognized for five minutes thank you
▶ 0:49:45chairman Latrell ranking member McGarvey and members of the subcommittee on behalf of the men and women of the VFW thank you for the opportunity to provide today the VFW continues to lead the charge against unaccredited unscrupulous actors we call claim sharks who charge service members veterans and survivors illegal fees our resolutions urge Congress to pass legislation that protects VA beneficiaries from predatory companies and individuals attempting to bypass the VA accreditation system and monetize the disability
▶ 0:50:16and death benefits of veterans and surviving families due to the stalemate in Washington DC our members have worked to pass state level legislation that installs consumer protection to enforce the federal statute currently nine states have laws that prohibit charging fees that are not allowed by federal law and have various degrees of penalties Washington Iowa Michigan New York Illinois NADA New Jersey Maine and Massachusetts have laws that
▶ 0:50:46require anyone who charges fees to do so adhering to federal law and regulation conversely one state Louisiana allows charging up to 12,5 00 for an initial claim the VFW has expressed to the committee our redlines regarding accreditation any accreditation Bill put forth veterans should not have to pay future benefits active duty service members should not have to pay for claims and no one who prepares a claim should have any Financial affiliation with medical examiners that could
▶ 0:51:16possibly affect the outcome of the claim these are common sense concerns that we insist being any Bill Advanced by this Committee in fact VA agrees that payments of future benefits are not allowed under current law in a November 2023 letter from VA in a response to a bipartisan bamal Congressional inquiry VA was asked what is va's official position on contracts in which a veteran agrees to pay a product of the increase in future benefits the response was where a contract ties the
▶ 0:51:46existence and extent of a claimant's payment obligation to the award of VA benefits it is logically construed as contemplating those benefits as the source of the payment the statute allowing for the payment of fees to VA credited attorneys and agents for the preparation prosecution or presentation of VA benefits claims from past due benefits is considered an exemption to the prohibition on assignments set forth in 5301 but under current law even this exemption
▶ 0:52:16does not go as far to allow for an agent or attorney to contract for the payment of fees from a claimant's future benefits VA also stated in addition they have concerns that would heavily depend on the different fee structures that could be proposed for instance a fee based on a product of the monthly benefits Awards such as five times or 500% of the amount of monthly increase of benefits would likely be unreasonable or Worse predatory they go on to State further a flat fee limit such
▶ 0:52:47as a cap of 12,500 for services provided on an initial claim seems excessive and thus unfair to Veterans these are va's words not the vfw's unfortunately VA is not here to present those views so I'm doing that for them the VFW strongly supports the guard VA benefits act that seeks to reinstate penalties we assert that this legislation which adds only one sentence to title 38 is a sound policy proposal that simply institutes a penalty for breaking current law
▶ 0:53:18anyone who claims to be adhering to federal law should not opposed to being subject to penalties of said law this would signify a sign substantial step forward holding Bad actors accountable to the intent of the law in fact VA has stated that in its budget request each year in its legislative proposal section since 2018 when Mr oror was the acting VA secretary they have asked for that legislative proposal in
▶ 0:53:48their budget request we agree that that would be beneficial for veterans and survivors the VFW opposes the plus Act because of the concerns VA has with the components of that proposal such as allowing assignment of benefits and unreasonable fee caps the VFW agrees with those concerns chairman Latrell ranking member McGarvey and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to speak on these bills and I'm prepared to answer any questions you might have thank you Mr Murray we'll move to a line of questioning thank you for your
▶ 0:54:18testimony Mr McGarvey sir you recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman appreciate everybody being here today I want to say one thing off this off the bat Mr oror you said that people are outraged that veterans have a choice and I just want to correct that I'm outraged that veterans are feeling so desperate in getting their claims adjudicated that they're willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to get those claims adjudicated that's what makes me outraged these are veterans who have earned these benefits who have put on a uniform who are willing to sacrifice everything for us
▶ 0:54:48and they are feeling so stymied right now they are willing to go to companies to pay this kind of money that's what has me outraged let's get to the testimony Colonel Taylor Page Six of your testimony States the plus act lifts the outdated prohibition on paid representation for initial disability claims it lifts the outdated prohibition that sounds like you and I are in agreement that charging for assistance on initial claims is currently not legal not allowed the code of federal regulations States also that
▶ 0:55:18quote no individual May assist claims in the preparation presentation and prosecution of claims for VA benefits as an agent or attorney unless unless he or she has first been accredited by the VA for such a purpose now I know in your testimony you said that you all do not act as an agent or attorney just to clear up some some doubt I just went to the Oxford dictionary on my phone an agent is described as a person who acts on behalf of another person or group or a person or thing that takes an active role or produces a specified effect you can
▶ 0:55:48see behind me how the VA defines preparation from this in particular but but but I'll read it for people around preparing a benefits clim generally includes but is not limited to Consulting with or giving advice to a claimant or potential claimant and contemplation of filing a benefits claim Gathering evidence and support of a benefits claim on behalf of a claimant or potential claimant or filling out VA forms for their submission to the VA so we know what preparation means we know an agent is someone who acts on behalf of another person or a person or thing that takes an active role or produces a
▶ 0:56:18specific effect so when you look at this definition when you look at the definition of agent Colonel Taylor I just have to ask you is your company doing any of these things we fundamentally uh do not believe that we are acting as agents or attorneys uh we acknowledge that we are helping uh preparation um that that is definitely clear but are you doing these things are are in the preparation are you preparing a benefits claim generally includes but is not limited to Consulting with or giving advice to a claimant or potential claimant in
▶ 0:56:48contemplation of filing a benefits claim Gathering evidence in support of a benefits claim on behalf of a claimant or potential claimant or filling out VA forms for their submission to the VA we are assisting with the preparation we do acknowledge that uh we do not believe that we are acting as agents when you look at the definition of agency agency typically requires three parties uh the agent who is acting on behalf of the client and engaging with the third party which in this case would be the VA we never represent the client
▶ 0:57:18we never engage with the VA and we never represent before the VA and so we do not meet the three pieces of that Triad that Define agency we are acting as a consultant that helps the veteran prepare to navigate the system on their own behalf in their own name when we talked about lifting um the limitations within uh the current law that was in reference to what accredited agents or attorneys can do and we believe that if we can change that allow us to become accredited
▶ 0:57:49we would like to work within and under the system with restriction and I appreciate that what you're talking about is a belief and what I'm trying to talk about is a common sense definition of how we are representing people in preparation of a claim which it very much sounds like you are doing whether you're helping veterans or not that's not what I'm asking that these are the current laws we have it seems you are doing these things on behalf of these veterans and that is not allowed under the current law U Mr Smith I have a question for you and and this is a very sincere question we only have a minute I'm gonna try and get through it very
▶ 0:58:19quickly right now you could apply for free for accreditation to assist veterans instead you're choosing not to do so I do understand that the accreditation process can be timec consuming so I'm I'm granting you that and I'm even going to go so far as to say we should tweak that system change the system all right but thousands of people have gone through it my very sincere question to you is why haven't all Yes uh thank you for that question uh then that's exactly why we're here today is to get a pathway
▶ 0:58:49for accreditation for companies uh for our company to help uh veterans there is a pathway for accreditation it exists right now and thousands of people have it yes and and we are in full support of the plus act or the uh discussion draft to why haven't you gone through the pathway now I mean it's a very serious question during my time at the VA I Was preparing claims for decision and I was on the other side making the decisions for
▶ 0:59:19for these claims and I spent years doing that I have much respect and and for the vsos doing it for free I was a member of vso they helped me with my claim along with the VA home loan and also with education my experience at the VA I saw a wide variety of quality from the vsos are from veterans doing it on their own and it it showed a big disparity between the training I received as a VA employee versus and the expertise I know of the VA regulation to
▶ 0:59:49how they were being representative being represented uh from vsos I saw I saw a big need for veterans to have the type of type of knowledge and expertise that I had as a VA employee which is why I started the company and I had no idea what it would have turned into and in and for f for five years it just grew By Word of Mouth we have tens and thousands of I know we're out of time and all I'm going to say is I appreciate people trying to help honestly trying to help veterans I asked you
▶ 1:00:19why you haven't gone in the accreditation and you just told me how good your company is but that didn't answer the question so I I that is something I want a sincere answer to the question to at some point Thank you Mr now you'll back Mr Bergman you recognize sir thank you Mr chairman can I take a point of personal privilege before my time starts you may all right I figured out why I couldn't pronounce infantilizing it's got five syllables I'm limited to four I just wanted to let you know that so
▶ 1:00:50I I apologize I'm going to make sure my my note writers that we limit it to four syllables okay I'm ready for for the clock to um let's get to the point uh very quickly I I heard my colleague talk protecting veterans and when I think protecting things whether it be our country or our little children or our people who need assistance um we have to be very careful
▶ 1:01:20I believe that when we try to protect someone we don't limit their ability to to become independent so I would suggest you we have to be very careful here as a committee and what we do on oversight and what we do as we look at things to to don't don't let be be the roadblock that create that enables independency on the part of the marketplace and the part of the veterans to interact with them so uh with that um Mr Taylor
▶ 1:01:50I'll start with a simple question does any part of the plus act Force veterans to pay fee to receive assistance in obtaining their disability benefits it absolutely does not and we one of the things that we appreciate about the plus Act is that it maintains the veterans freedom of choice they can pursue a claim on their own they can pursue it with the vso uh from one of the veteran service organizations or a state or County employee uh or their Congressional office or if they choose that those services are not meeting their
▶ 1:02:20needs they can choose to use a private service like ours okay and I don't think anybody in this room uh disagrees you know with the fact that that we need to accredit anybody in any place doctors need to be accredited you know pick your teachers need to be accredited they need they need to show that they can do the job can you speak to the need for changes to the accreditation application system for instance through the temporary and provisional accreditation
▶ 1:02:50included in the plus act thank you sir uh we do agree with the requirement to be accredited uh we do believe that accreditation needs to be open to allow uh people to help at any step of the process and that's really the limitation to becoming accredited right now what's proposed in the plus act would provide a provisional path to allow us to become accredited to operate within the system but also provides immediate protections that if we violate any of the rules there's a heavy penalty uh that will be enacted
▶ 1:03:21if we do not act properly under the the rules of the plus act and I know we're going to because this is going to I had a zillion questions for all of you but we're going to stay focused on here what steps uh Colonel Taylor what steps does vets Guardian take to make sure veterans can pay the fees they agreed to without placing Financial strain on them or their family we have developed a payment system that ensures that no veteran is financially disadvantaged from where they were
▶ 1:03:51when they started working with us uh we do not believe in collecting fees until a veteran we have validated that the veteran is getting their new benefits from the VA and that we believe that any benefits that are any fee that is paid to us should be paid out of new benefits that the veterans are receiving we would be happy to see additions uh to this bill that would codify some of those rules require fees to be contingent on a successful outcome and require them to only be collected after the the veteran is collecting uh their benefits okay so you've developed your business
▶ 1:04:21model and and and how you're going to do this would you be open to adding additional guard rails because we do part of what we're looking here to do is to create guard rails and guidelines would you be open to additional guard rails to plus ensuring agents who charge fees take steps like what you just articulated yes absolutely for the last uh since I've been engaged in this process we have been open to Common Sense uh guard rails we do understand there's predatory practices that we need to do protect veterans and we are open
▶ 1:04:52to anything that addresses those concerns okay thank you uh um um Mr Murray um got a couple just you know you know let's yes or no questions does the VA accreditation system adequately ensure agents are held accountable to Veterans and the VA uh I wish VA was here to answer that I can't say no I no no you're you you you are providing a perspective
▶ 1:05:22based upon your your your knowledge your your in depth so I'll repeat it does the VA accreditation system adequately ensure agents are held accountable to Veterans and the VA we believe the system can does the VA accreditation system adequately ensure agents yes or no because you you're look at it you're very deeply into it or maybe simply you think it can do better it can always do better okay is
▶ 1:05:52it doing good enough now I don't think so okay thank you thank you very much and I uh I yield back whatever second thank you General Mr Paper you recognized well thank you and I appreciate everyone's testimony in the conversation here and I really do hope we can have a deliberate process as we move forward uh to figure out uh legislation that is going to address this issue and I started um from this hearing about it from constituents hearing about it from veteran organizations
▶ 1:06:22uh about the problem that does exist out there uh where veterans are being charged exorbitant fees uh to get access to the benefits that they have earned um and many have talked about deceptive practices along the way uh that's a problem that I believe this committee uh needs to work to address um and we should do it by uh strengthening the accreditation program and uh passing my bill which would put in place uh those criminal penalties that were stripped out of the law in 2006 um now we heard from companies and others have
▶ 1:06:52said that um we don't uh you you know participate in the preparation presentation and prosecution of VA claims um and if that's the case then there's nothing to worry about with respect to reinstating criminal penalties for those uh that are running a foul of the law so I think my bill is pretty simple and straightforward uh Mr Murray I wanted to turn to you and just ask about um your team and the work they do to get
▶ 1:07:22accredited and to do the work that they do just help us understand a little bit about what goes on in terms of your organization and assisting veterans with claims sure so uh thank you for that question Mr papis uh as vsos we have to go through 40 hours of training uh a lot of it now can be done self-paced online need to pass a test uh you know certain percentage uh correct and then pass a background check that's just the process for veteran service organizations the accredited attorneys
▶ 1:07:53and accredited agents have a different process as well can you talk about um the difference between pre-filing consultations and claims preparation we heard a little bit about this today um companies are arguing that because they don't actually hit the send button um on a veterans application they're not actually assisting in preparation how do you view that issue so uh we view uh not physically mailing uh the claim itself that's not
▶ 1:08:23the only part of preparing in a claim as VA stated uh is gathering evidence contemplation of a claimant providing assistance and advice we believe that is also part of the preparation because you're preparing the entire package I know that legally preparation has a certain uh definition we feel that the whole part of that is preparation as does va Mr McGarvey talked about frustrations
▶ 1:08:53that veterans have uh in terms terms of delays in getting claims processed uh in um getting their benefits um and I think that's an issue we have been working on we have to continue to address obviously we've asked VA to do more in passing pact act and other legislation um that has put a lot of pressure on the workforce at VA I'm wondering if you can talk about capacity within the vso community uh within the accredited agents and attorneys that are out there um do we have enough capacity
▶ 1:09:23to deal with some of the new authorities that uh Congress has given VA I don't think so uh there are a lot of places where the entire system can get better the VFW is not saying that we can do this on our own we're uh supported by an entire network of County vsos state vsos are other partners like the American Legion and Dav and accredited agents and attorneys There Are Places all around this country that that can invest more in helping with those services but nothing that we're talking about today whether
▶ 1:09:53it's the guard act or the act or the discussion draft will make VA process these claims any faster the backlog you know does exist there are claims that are waiting for adjudication nothing on our front end is going to make that any better a fully developed fully prepared claim will hopefully get through correct the first time but it's up to VA to process that no one sitting at this table can speed up the actual process itself y That's the other essential element in this conversation Miss Boyd Robert
▶ 1:10:23Can I Turn to You um I appreciate your Reflections on the legislation before us today uh you did say there were elements of the plus act uh that uh you could support and I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that well we appreciate the fact that they uh want to put in the criminal penalties just as you do in guard we also again have seen this uh move in the states to pass these different bills guard plus it's extraordinarily confusing for veterans it's confusing for Advocates we absolutely think there has to be
▶ 1:10:53something in there that emphasizes is that federal law this is a federal area of disability benefits uh trumps and preempts the state laws and uh my time's up I may have some other questions but I yield back thank you thank you sir Miss mace you recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman as a a daughter of a veteran most of my family serves I I I know how important it is to correct to protect excuse me our veterans so I applaud and thank all of our veterans this is
▶ 1:11:24standing room only today you men and women showed up you served your country you showed up to protect your benefits and get what you deserve so thank you and God bless you my mission in life and my mission on this committee and other committees I serve on is to protect veterans it's also to protect women so I have some questions for Colonel Taylor who's here today this morning thank you for being here uh what percentage of benefits what percentage of the benefits a veteran gets when they come through your company to get benefits what percentage
▶ 1:11:54of their benefits do your company receive when working with veterans uh we do not work on a percentage basis how do you work on how do you get your funds uh we charge a um a contingent fee uh that is equal to five times the monthly increase that fee is only charged if the veteran has a successful outcome and receives an increase in their benefits and we only uh uh invoice that fee once we validated that the veteran is getting their new benefits from and what are your gross revenues for your company how much money are you guys making every year uh
▶ 1:12:24we are are a private company and we do make a profit but when we look at our fee gross revenues I am uh my compensation is not publicly disclosed because we are private how much money is your company making every year I would be 90 million 100 million or more I would more or less than 100 million offline I'm not prepared to discuss that here today of course um all right uh what percentage of your
▶ 1:12:55cases are fraudulent I would say that 0% of my cases are fraudulent so I have a question for you um couple questions for you um what what's your company's position on people who serve well don't serve people who uh maybe attend a college or an academy for a year or two but never graduate and never serve and get 100% disability what's your position on that that is not a position that my company should determine that is a position that's determined by the VA and their regulations and the laws
▶ 1:13:25and how that that's administered have you ever helped anybody who hasn't served like that that maybe was went to college or an academy for a year or two and got them 100% disability have you ever has your company ever done that I cannot speak on that I would have to go back but I could come back to you with an answer on that question I doubt you could um would a football injury someone who was at college or an academy for a year or two and got a football injury deserve 100% disability in your opinion in my opinion no what if it was like from a car crash
▶ 1:13:55should would they deserve 100% disability uh once again that's not for M what if they just made it up and lied to get to get their 100% disability and they only attended college and Academy for a year or two what if they just completely 100% made it up and lied that would be a fraudulent claim would you if there was a fraudulent claim and there was an investigation would you work with with whoever's investigating it to ensure it doesn't happen again and to reverse the claim would you I mean absolutely m
▶ 1:14:28um all right I have some ethics questions so I understand your CEO Scott greenblat has a has a degree in criminal justice is that right I believe so yes uh what's your company position on rape we are fundamentally against it what's your company position on voyerism women who are filmed illegally without their knowledge permission or consent completely against it what's your com your company position on women who come forward to report report rape we fully support that or voyerism
▶ 1:14:58we fully support that would you would you work with anyone uh would you work with a veteran who's accused of doing those things or something like it would your company ever want to affiliate with an individual like that we would um and you're saying you would not work with any any students who try to get 100% disability who were at school for a year or two would your company ever work with any veterans who are being investigated for breaking the law I would
▶ 1:15:29from a uh initial position we should not I can't say categorically that we haven't in the past but we do not believe that someone we if you knew someone was being investigated would you help them get their benefits if they were being investigated for heinous crimes against women we should not be no you should not be thank you Mr chairman and I yeld back thank you miss Ma Dr Dexter you recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and to the ranking member for convening
▶ 1:15:59this hearing today thank you to our Witnesses for coming um and to our room full of Veterans for standing up for your benefits thank you for being here no veteran should have to pay to file a claim to access the benefits that they have earned full stop could we improve the VA claim system to make it faster and easier absolutely that's why I'm here in Congress to make sure that government works for oregonians but you know what I'm not here to
▶ 1:16:30do sit by while while Elon Musk takes a chainsaw to veteran services or hands a blank check to Industries ignoring the law and I know that's true because I hold town halls and I listen at my town hall on Saturday the first person to speak was a Marine Corps veteran who was unjustly fired from the veterans benefits Administration he had just taken a job I know who I am fighting for and that's
▶ 1:17:00why I support the guard VA benefits act last Congress the guard VA benefits act had overwhelming bipartisan support 221 co-sponsors in the house 55 in the Senate and backing from 44 bipartisan bipartisan Attorneys General including those from every state and territory represented on this committee most importantly it had the robust support from veterans and vsos yet instead of advancing this Common Sense bipartisan Bill we're here debating
▶ 1:17:30other proposals to put corporate profit ahead of veterans a loophole that shouldn't exist is being exploited and instead of fixing it we're entertaining ways to help companies continue to take from our veterans and to top it all off the VA isn't even here to weigh in Miss Boyd Rober I'm sorry I hope I said that right tell me what does this committee need to do to make it faster and easier for veterans to file claims through the trusted
▶ 1:18:00accredited system exists well I think that Congress has constantly constantly been looking at ways on how to make the system better we really strongly believe in accreditation and making sure that everyone who is representing veterans is accredited because that system requires people to become educated to take the CL agents have to pass an exam VA has to um oversee all of these things and in addition for people who are charging fees
▶ 1:18:31currently under the system they must submit every fee agreement that they sign with a veteran to the Department of Veterans Affairs who always has the right to look at a fee and determine whether or not it's reasonable so we really think that those safeguards are very critical to you know protecting the system protecting veterans great and Miss Boyd Robert what risks do veterans face when they file a claim Within unaccredited company well again because someone's not accredited and to their points they
▶ 1:19:01are standing in the shadows coaching a veteran Consulting but they're not the person who's going to put their name on a power of attorney and represent themselves to VA and say I stand for this veteran I'm the person you can contact when there's something wrong I'm the person who's going to reach out to VA and say this particular veteran needs to be Advanced on the docket so we just see it as accountability to stand up and say I am representing this person very good so this Administration
▶ 1:19:31claims it's tackling waste Fraud and Abuse but again they are showing their true colors taking money from veterans to pad the profits of unaccredited potentially predatory companies quite literally rights waste Fraud and Abuse into the law I will not entertain bills that seem more interested in protecting a so-called free market than ensuring veterans can access the bet benefits they have earned thank you I yield back Mr chair thank you Mr exter Mr s
▶ 1:20:01sir you recognized five minutes uh thank you Mr chairman um I'm actually delighted to hear that we making progress toward uh toward the the plus act or the discussion draft um and I want to go back to a different situation and it is uh the the case that we have in VA that we've debated now for two years years uh because and it's a veteran suicide U the VA wants to keep veterans
▶ 1:20:32uh in the big VA there are veterans who want to go to a local Clinic there are veterans who want to go to uh peer-to-peer uh NOS counseling uh they they have choices um and here uh I think we've I've I've heard that we agree that the accreditation process is is in is inefficient and changes need to be made so I always look
▶ 1:21:02to monopolies need to be need to have competition uh and I hope that we can reach agreement on whichever bill we can that we'll give our veterans choices because our veterans need choices so I'm I'm not sure I have a question for our panel but I want to say that I'm I'm encouraged with the conversation here and I think that at the end of the day I will and I look forward to our hearing true hearing on the these
▶ 1:21:32bills because I I want our veterans to have as many choices in every area as they can have because veterans are different they have different interests they have different needs and uh so I'm I'm actually encouraged here uh and I want to see whatever bill this committee eventually advances Mr chairman will give our veterans a choice thank you I yield back thank you Mr self Dr Morrison you recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chair uh I want to
▶ 1:22:03thank you for holding this hearing today and thank our Witnesses for being here I also want to thank my colleagues for putting forward their proposals I appreciate hearing the views and conversation that we're having as the wife of an army combat veteran and the daughter-in-law of a disabled Vietnam veteran I know the VA claims process can be challenging to navigate since we're talking about benefits that veterans have earned um uh I think we need to make sure that we're helping them avoid paying out of pocket for what owed it strikes me too that part of the challenge we're
▶ 1:22:33facing here is the increased and entirely appropriate need that the packed Act is designed to meet so the news that was leaked last night that the administration plans to fire up 83,000 more VA employees is perplexing to me at best and designed to gut the VA worst um my question is for Miss um robber in your testimony you described the patchwork of state laws that have passed because of congressional
▶ 1:23:03inaction frankly on the on the issue uh and it seems like it's not for lack of support I believe last Congress the guard act guard VA benefits Act was co-sponsored by the majority of members uh in both the house and the Senate so my question for you is what are some of the other consequences that might result from further Congressional inaction on these issues well I think that uh there's just more growth of these companies they perceive that they are outside the bounds of the law which we don't agree
▶ 1:23:33with because it would seem perplexing that Congress over all these years would have said we don't want veterans to be paying for initial claims and that by saying that they were somehow allowing for a loophole that would be this big so we really think that there has to be some kind of action to sort of get a grip on on what has become a growing industry thank you um and this question has sort of been asked but I'm hoping um Mr Murray and Miss
▶ 1:24:03R um robber that you could share some recommendations that you might have on how VA what could VA be doing to make this process more efficient besides firing 83,000 people uh and we think that would be uh harmful what they have been doing if we as we've seen uh the backlog for claims cases how long it takes I believe it was about 146 days a week ago it's slowly decreasing the stories of
▶ 1:24:34uh claims taking three years to adjudicate is a thing of the past we want to see that continue so continue to hire people at VA to review those claims to hopefully make it faster we also would really appreciate things like adding additional resources to like our County vso system right there are plenty of states around the country that do great things the Texas veterans commission is a great example not every state does that we can here push out great resources to help other states do that so that there are so many more resources for veterans to show up and get that help they need
▶ 1:25:05and if I could add um in 2017 president Trump signed the appeals modernization act and that was the product of a lot of collaboration between Congress Vos stakeholders and it actually has made a lot of changes to the system that have greatly improved it and I know this subcommittee is looking at even further improvements m ments to the AMA some things that need to happen and we wholeheartedly support that and would love to you know maybe get some of these issues passed so we can actually dig in on some of the meat of those I appreciate
▶ 1:25:35those answers thank you so much I yield back Mr chair thank you Dr Morrison Mr Smith do you believe that a veteran should be charged a fee for helping filing an initial claim for presumptive disability that VA assumes is related to their F their military service uh thank you chairman lrel for that question uh we do not believe that should be paying for any presumptive uh claims these are in the in the spectrum of complicated cases vaa claims presumptives are tend to be relatively simple and relatively
▶ 1:26:05simple don't ever say that again out loud regard regarding regarding what it takes to be service connected reg versus a non-resp of claim uh and in the scope of that that it's it's a there's not as many there's not many there's not as many prongs that need to be met in order for presumptive condition to be met uh and it's uh fairly automatic when you compare it to a disability you're claiming for military service so for presumptive claims we we do refer them to uh veteran service organizations and and
▶ 1:26:35we refer all our clients to any uh that there are free services the majority of our clients have used them such as myself Miss Robert is a trade Association of law firms assisting veterans at no cost on initial claims what guard rails do you think should be in place if Congress passes legislation that would allow charging fees on claims well we think that the current guard rails that are in place would be adequate if people are if Congress decides that they're going to allow for some charging system
▶ 1:27:06then what is under the accreditation system currently is adequate everyone has to file a POA on every veteran they represent again to my earlier answer because then you're showing that you are the person that is representing the veteran you have to do cles you have to if you're an agent and you are not an attorney you have to pass an exam um you have to submit all your fee agreements to the department so they can look at them and the department has the right to decide whether or not that
▶ 1:27:36fee is reasonable so we think that the guard rails that are in place are solid ones it's the determination that you all have to make as to whether or not you want to take that next step and allow for veterans to pay for assistance with filing their initial claims Mr Murray you were asked the question is the accreditation process does it need to be changed Advanced or or moved forward you said absolutely yes and then you were asked what do you think about it actually and you're like it's not good enough so my question to that is
▶ 1:28:07if it's not good enough is it is it worthwhile at all you have members on this you have members in the hearing right now that don't have the accreditation and Mr Smith your answer was absolutely out in left field you're in the people's house and we want answers and that was not one sir so M so Colonel Taylor I'm going to ask you because if the other companies are getting accreditation for accountability responsibility and to be held accountable I seem to think that that's what the accreditation means but do you
▶ 1:28:38one we believe does your company have is is your company accredited we are not accredited right now okay so you're going to need to tell me why you are not because as the ranking member asked there is a process and thousands of companies have gone through it and in my interpretation it just means you don't want to be held accountable if anything happens which the accredited agencies are going to be called to the carpet tell me why is
▶ 1:29:08the process skewed flawed in a way that you haven't done it because I've heard you say in your testimony that you plan on it now how long has your company been under active we've existed since uh late 2017 17 okay you may answer answer yes uh under the current accreditation rules uh we're obviously not allowed to charge a fee to assist with an initial claim our entire assistance model is focused on helping veterans with initial claims when I look at a veteran I'm looking at three pillars
▶ 1:29:38I heard you speak on the Triad which I think you're kind of skirting the skirting the line there a little bit but go ahead okay well aside from the Triad I want to look for things that a veterans should have claimed that they didn't that's an initial claim are you telling these veterans to collect this information for you or you actively doing it yourself the veterans have to provide the information to us and then we help them develop it from there just over the phone you're not touching anything you're telling them you got a guideline you're reading off of like hey this is what you're going to do I'm trying to find out why you're not you're you're not
▶ 1:30:09wanting to become accredited we want to become accredited but no you don't you don't sir yes sir unless I'm absolutely missing something because the organizations that are sitting to your left are in 2017 you as you said tell me why because under the current accreditation limitations we cannot assist with initial claims and that's where we believe the veterans need the most assistance for us to most effectively help our
▶ 1:30:39veterans and look at them holistically I need to be able to assist them across the entire process both uh both what accredited agents are allowed to do legislatively there's a problem apparently yes sir so that's something that you're asking us to fix yes sir and Miss robber I would assume you would disagree with that statement or Mr Murray again this is congress's decision about initial claim Congress listens to the people we are elected by the people we're here to do
▶ 1:31:09people's we are our our members are accredited and help veterans typically after they've been denied because as I talked about earlier there's a appeals process so veterans have a lot of choices to make when they get in denial that is typically when agents and attorneys have been involved in the process a lot of our members do initial claims pro bono for free so um it's just a different way of representing veterans but again our members are accredited and are putting their names out there to say
▶ 1:31:40we represent this veteran and we will be held accountable for it Mr chairman I would uh the vfw's position is exactly that everybody can get accredited if M Robert and the other accredited agents and attorneys said we want to talk about extending in fees within the current system we are here for that but right now people are operating outside the system refusing to get accredited are saying You must change it before we start following the law we do not agree with that thank you Mr Murray I apologize I went over my time Mr
▶ 1:32:10Papa sir we're going to move into closing remarks would you like to out please do right closing well I want to thank our panel and certainly all the veterans that are in the room here today for this important uh discussion um I see this this problem as one of veterans being taken advantage of in our country and us uh needing to insist on some basic guidelines here in Congress uh yes to protect veterans um and ensure that um they are able to seek the help that they need uh and
▶ 1:32:40successfully obtain the benefits that they all deserve now I think there's some in this room that we've heard from that think the problem is their company is not able to make as much money as they possibly can on the backs of our veterans and I just fundament m al believe that our veterans shouldn't be a profit Center um there should be penalties for those who are violating the law and ripping off our veterans and if companies believe that they're not violating the law today then there's no reason why they shouldn't welcome um some additional teeth in the law and some oversight
▶ 1:33:11by VA so I think that the guard Act is uh pretty straightforward um and I also think that there was a lot said today about choice we should be taking steps to bolster the choice that veterans have we can do that by encouraging the hiring of more County Veteran service officers by um supporting VFW and other organizations and the work that they do by strengthening the accreditation process to ensure that more can come into the system under that umbrella and ultimately and this came out
▶ 1:33:41today uh working as hard as we can to strengthen va's response times and their customer service uh for the end veteran to alleviate that frustrating process that so many uh endure um and um so I I think that uh we've got an ability to work this through and um I I hope that we will continue to engage engage the veteran Community ultimately uh in the work ahead uh on this subcommittee so I I just thank you for the opportunity to hear these bills today I think
▶ 1:34:11this was really instructive for us I yield back thank you Mr papis you know the VA it's it's not a perfect machine it's not it's it's big it's bold it's beautiful at times and it fails at times and I don't mind wire brushing it and calling everything out but the VA it's ours and I'm looking at the 100 plus people sitting in the room with us today it belongs to us we dictate how it should be operated now these two pieces of legislation are amazing yes
▶ 1:34:41the veteran has every right to pick and choose exactly who moves their claims through Colonel Mr Smith 100% they do they have that choice they earn that right they put that uniform on they can make those choices because yes they do go to the VA and the VA has failed multiple times we hear it every day it's no secret we're trying to build out that infrastructure in order to handle us and we are a
▶ 1:35:11very complicated group of individuals especially the Marines we will not let any organization take advantage of the most cherished asset we have in our country which is those individuals on the dis and sitting behind you and amongst every other state in the country and I hope I'm very clear on that so as we talk about this legislation full committee what we will do because we shouldn't
▶ 1:35:42be having this conversation now whether if we messed up legislatively in the past it's because we're listening to you and we're listening to you right now now it is is our job on the subcommittee and the committee to fix this problem because what we want at the end of the day is for our veterans to be taken care of their quality of life increased so they can be happy until the day we have to lay them down and I want you to
▶ 1:36:12know yeah if I I I'll get aggressive with you because sometimes you deserve it I can assure you I get my ass handed to me every day because I'm voted in by the people and that's who speaking for the 40,000 veterans in my counties okay I'd like to thank the ranking member again for this hearing and and the other members of this committee I ask unanimous consent that the statements for the record we have received today be entered
▶ 1:36:42into the hearing record hearing no objection so ordered I ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous material hearing no objections this meeting is adjourned