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▶ 0:17:03subcommittee will come to order without objection the chair is authorized declare reset at any time I welcome all of you to this hearing today uh which is on the topic is the right to self-defense and I now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin Mr Tiffany to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance ALG to the of the United States of America and to the repic for which it
▶ 0:17:33stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all I thank the gentlemen and now I will recognize myself for an opening statement again thank you uh everyone here who's here today I'm pleased to chair the hearing we have before us focusing on the Second Amendment and and the right to self defense the second amendment protects our rights to keep and bear arms which includes both firearms
▶ 0:18:03and knives the Supreme Court's Landmark decision in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus bruan held that the second amendment protects the right to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home not just inside the home as the Court held in heler at a time when violent crime continues to plague our communities and Rogue prosecutors allow criminals back out on the streets now more than ever it is important to preserve our right to defend ourselves and their loved ones it's disgraceful to think someone protecting their family from a deadly attack
▶ 0:18:33could be punished for defending their family unfortunately my colleagues across the aisle do not share these same views instead of passing legislation to keep criminals off the streets former President Joe Biden's ATF sought to achieve far-left policy outcomes through Federal agency Ru making former President Biden's ATF promulgated various rules to regulate pistol pistol braces and the frames and receivers on Firearms or so-called ghost ghost guns former President Biden's ATF also issued a rule to
▶ 0:19:04create several presumptions about when an individual is defined as a dealer in firearms and needs to be licensed as a federal firearms licensee and instead of continuing long-standing relationships with ffls which serve as the first line of defense against criminals the Biden ATF actually treated ffls like they were the criminals these efforts targeted lawful firearm owners and did nothing to prevent actual criminals from committing crimes my colleagues across the aisle failed to realize how more gun
▶ 0:19:34control only harms and impacts the vulnerable populations they claim they want to protect thankfully under this new Administration Firearms owners and Firearms businesses alike can breathe a sigh of relief the right to self-defense is a Cornerstone in our country despite what the mainam mainstream media may like you to believe 38 states have stand your ground laws compared to uh to a duty to retreat however the current landscape of firearm laws across the country surrounding when
▶ 0:20:04and where you carry a firearm are often complex and difficult to navigate to think that a person lawfully owning and carrying a firearm in one state becomes a criminal as soon as they cross into another is completely absurd some things need to change the same confusing landscape of complex criminal laws exists for carrying a knife across state lines my bill the knife owners protection act would protect the right of law abiding citizens to transport knives Interstate notwithstanding the burden and Patchwork of state and local prohibitions
▶ 0:20:34and I look forward to marking up the knife owners protection act in this committee our committee will continue to stand with ffl's firearms and knife owners and any law-abiding citizen who refuses to become a victim this week the two ranking members sent a letter to the attorney general asking her to refrain from repealing the atf's unconstitutional regulations in that letter they cited uh misleading in statistic that I'd like to take the time clarify they said quote to today there are more gun
▶ 0:21:04dealers than there are locations of Starbucks McDonald's Dunkin Donuts Burger King Subway and Chick-fil-A combined close quote they justify this statement by siding to a report on the number of active firearm licenses however the ranking members mistakenly equate one firearm license to one firearm dealer as if a single FFL has a retail outlet in fact there are only about 25,000 physical addresses for firearms dealers in this country a
▶ 0:21:34single fire Firearms dealer can hold multiple licenses and someone can have a license without actually being a Firearms dealer that is the fact and at this time I'm going to yield back and recognize the ranking member m mcbath for her opening statement thank you chairman I appreciate it and good morning and thank you to all of our witnesses that are joining us this morning every single day more than 110
▶ 0:22:05Americans die from gun violence and more than 110 families have to confront their worst fear that they have lost a person who means absolutely everything to them I came to Congress because one of those families was my family in November 2012 I got the call that no parent should ever ever have to face that my son had been taken by gun violence my son Jordan
▶ 0:22:35would now have just celebrated his 30th birthday and every day I think about the life that he should be living and I think about the millions of Americans lives that are lost or Changed by preventable gun violence and I know that I am not alone for decades survivors and those who aspir to a safer tomorrow have been working together to bring an end to gun violence
▶ 0:23:06and in June of 2022 after more mass shootings in Uvaldi and buffalo we passed the bipartisan safer communities act the first comprehensive gun violence prevention bill in nearly 30 years for the past two and a half years the bipartisan safer communities act has kept guns out of of the hands of people like gun traffickers and domestic abusers it has invested
▶ 0:23:36in improving Mental Health Resources both in our local schools and throughout all of our communities it has supported state and local efforts to reduce gun violence including funding State Crisis programs since the passage of the bipartisan safer communities act there have been 3,500 fewer murders that's more than 3,000
▶ 0:24:06families who've never had to receive that devastating news that would change their lives forever those are families with a son or daughter who did come home from school with a mom who did make it back from running an errand or attending a prayer service or with a dad who did come home after work The Late Shift in Just 2 years there are more than 3,000 families who didn't have to face
▶ 0:24:36the pain of losing a loved one to murder the two largest single year decreases in Murder ever recorded we have the ability to keep this momentum going and it's not just reducing murder the bipartisan safer communities act has helped bring violent crime down to an almost 50y year low without infringing on the constitutional rights of a single responsible gun owner
▶ 0:25:07or gun seller given this incredible progress it is no wonder that law enforcement supports the work that we have done and the improvements that continue to be made because of this historic law in 20123 the National Sheriff's association called on Congress to appropriate $200 million for the community violence intervention and prevention initiative a program
▶ 0:25:37that we doubled in size by passing the bipartisan safer communities act as the sheriff's letter explains this funding supports law enforcement mentorship life skills and vocational training programs this work is making all of us safer and changing lives for the better bridging gaps and encouraging trust between law enforcement and the communities that they serve
▶ 0:26:08similarly last year we received a letter from police leaders for Community safety in support of a provision of the bipartisan safer communities act that requires those who sell guns predominantly to earn a profit to obtain a license and conduct background checks police leaders for Community safety explained that this provision prevents felons and other prohibited purchasers from evading background checks and enhances
▶ 0:26:39Public Safety we know that we're still losing far too many lives to gun violence violent crime and suicide but the solution is clear we must continue the progress of the bipartisan safer communities act and we must build upon it our colleagues want to take us back to a time where there were more guns in our communities that might end up in the hands of people who simply should not have them but we know what is at
▶ 0:27:09stake and that is American lives at the end of a long day we all just want our loved ones to come home safely that our husbands or wives will walk through the door whether they work in an office a school a hospital or a police priest sync we want to tuck our children into bed each and every single night we want our moms our dads and our best friends to be kept safe from harm and able to speak to us on the other line of a telephone
▶ 0:27:40the bipartisan safer communities Act is making sure more people share these important moments together and that fewer families face the Heartbreak when those moments abruptly stop I once again call all my colleagues to stand with us and working together to end unnecessary gun violence and before I yield back I ask unanimous consent to submitt to the record a letter from the national Sheriff's Association in support of community
▶ 0:28:11violence intervention funding without objection and a letter from the police leaders for Community safety in support of the engaged in business provision the bipartisan safer communities Act without objection thank you and I yield back General lady yields shair now recognizes the ranking member for the entire committee Mr Rasin for his opening statement thank you kindly Mr chairman um just on that interesting point you raised at the beginning um I I think we stand by our math there are
▶ 0:28:41more than 50,000 gun dealer licenses in America more than 6,000 pawn broker licenses and more than 20,000 manufacturer licenses who each have the right to directly sell from their unique physical locations and that does add up to more than the various fast food outlets and uh so on that we identified but we we'll submit for the record the exact arithmetic I'm glad that uh you at least implicitly seem to uh agree that uh if true
▶ 0:29:11this is a shocking statistic that there are that many gun violence dealers in the country um in 2022 shocking levels of gun violence caused Congress to come together after Decades of inaction to pass the first major piece of gun safety legislation in 28 years ever since President Biden signed the bipartisan safer communities act into law and with the efforts of the ATF we've made substantial gains in reversing the gun
▶ 0:29:41epidemic um we ended 2024 with a 25% drop in Nationwide homicides compared to 2022 and of course Firearms are involved in more than 80% of murders in the country according to the office office of gun violence prevention's one-year progress report in September of last year more than 600 defendants had been charged under our new gun trafficking and straw purchasing laws and 900 firearm transfers to people under the age of 21 were
▶ 0:30:12prevented by enhanced background checks the key point is that this law and other Biden Administration regulations saved thousands of lives contributing to 3500 fewer murders between 2023 and 2024 without ever once infringing on the Second Amendment and we know this because the Supreme Court never invalidated any part of the bipartisan safe communities act or any other Biden Administration gun
▶ 0:30:42safety rule as a violation of the Second Amendment on the contrary they've all been deemed to be constitutional yet our colleagues continue to insist that Common Sense gun safety laws of this type violate the Second Amendment but the Second Amendment doesn't protect prot the right of access to a firearm without a violent criminal background check or the right to purchase machine guns or military style assault weapons the Supreme Court uh including uh in the DC versus heler decision has
▶ 0:31:12repeatedly stated that reasonable regulations of firearms to protect Public Safety are consistent with the Second Amendment um but our colleagues want to preempt state and local law and force Americans to accept more dangerous weapons in their Community all under the guise of protecting the Second Amendment I challenge my colleagues to explain how any of the Biden Administration reforms actually violate the Second Amendment because no court ever said they did
▶ 0:31:43the problem is that some of our colleagues have completely deformed and misstated what the Second Amendment stands for they now Infamous insurrectionist Theory says that the second amendment gives you the right to overthrow the government our former colleague Matt Gates said the Second Amendment quote is about maintaining within the citizenry the ability to maintain an armed Rebellion against the government if that becomes necessary this purported right to overthrow the government means that the
▶ 0:32:13people must enjoy access to Munitions equivalent to that of the Arsenal possessed by the government as my friend representative chip Roy says the second amendment was quote designed purposefully to empower the people to resist the force of tyranny used against them and my friend Lauren bobbert says that the Second Amendment quote has nothing to do with hunting unless you're talking about hunting tyrants maybe despite all of this pseudo revolutionary rhetoric
▶ 0:32:43about how the Constitution provides a right of civil Insurrection the actual constitution in a half dozen different places treats Insurrection and Rebellion not as protected rights but as serious and dangerous offenses against our government and against our people article one gives Congress the power to call forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union suppress insurrections and repel invasions the Republican guarantee clause in article 4 tells
▶ 0:33:13the US to guarantee a republican form of government to the states and protect them quote against domestic violence these Provisions followed Shay's rebellion and armed Uprising in Massachusetts in the 7 1980s which the founders strongly condemned and which influenced the writing of the Constitution the Constitution thoroughly rejects the right-wing fantasy that random bands of disgruntled citizens can ca can claim the powers of a militia
▶ 0:33:44to commit violent acts against the police um Article 1 Section 8 Clause 16 reserves quote to the states respectively the appointment of the officers and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress this intergovernmental cooperation is how we come to have what the Second Amendment calls for in its first Clause a well-regulated militia this means well-regulated by the government as the
▶ 0:34:14Supreme Court has repeatedly said the proud boys and oathkeepers are not a militia a private militia is a contradiction in terms in 1886 the Supreme Court upheld a state law criminalizing private paramilitary groups and every state in the Union today bans private militias a militia is not the reserve power of the people to attack the government on the contrary it is the instrument by which the federal and state governments can supress
▶ 0:34:44violent insurrections against the government now today um when I point out these problems uh with their Theory to my distinguished colleagues they generally fall back on two responses one is they will quote Patrick Henry who said Give me liberty or give me death which is great because that was a great bumper sticker in the 18th century but Patrick Henry was an anti-federalist who opposed the ratification
▶ 0:35:15of the Constitution so that's like quoting speeches by Jefferson Davis to settle the meaning of the 14th Amendment they also invoke more plausibly the American Revolution in the Declaration of dependence for the idea that after a long train of abuses and usurpations and Agri people have the right to alter or abolish the bonds holding them to a tyrannical government now that's true of course but it's irrelevant because the revolutionaries undoubtedly asserted their right
▶ 0:35:45not as a right under the British constitution or the Magna Carta but as a matter of natural right to overthrow a tyrannical government that's very different from saying the Constitution itself guarant gu anes the right to have the means to overthrow the government if you think that the 2020 presidential election for example which Joe Biden won by more than 7 million votes 306 to 232 is an exercise of tyranny akin to King George's tyranny against the colonist
▶ 0:36:15by all means you can come down and beat up our police officers and try to overthrow the government but if we catch you and we stop you we will prosecute you under the full force of the law and put you in jail at at least until the next president decides to pardon the people who've done that look this fraudulent constitutional philosophy of insurrectionism is exacting a brutal toll on the American people in our social contract by blockading perfectly reasonable and constitutional gun
▶ 0:36:46safety measures that are saving lives in America the whole purpose of the social contract is to make ourselves safer than we would be in a lawless state of nature which Hobs described as a St of war and yet the insurrectionist caucus has brought us gruesome episodes of high-tech military style violence everywhere in America from Walmarts to grocery stores to Elementary School classrooms it's time to reassert the real Primacy of the Constitution and it's a real meaning thank you I yeld back
▶ 0:37:16to you Mr chairman thank thank you I I didn't know you were going to make to the yield part thank thank you Mr Ras I would just I would just since you invoked me directly I'll respond directly um you said implicit in my statement was that I was shocked at the N number of retail um uh gun dealers I am not shocked by that it is a legal Enterprise um I still question the data that you have and I and I would refer you to a couple things just vanderock V Garland the fifth circuit
▶ 0:37:46fifth circuit case as well as heler McDonald and bruan contradict um you you were essentially arguing against heler so with that since you invoked my name irly I feel I had the had the right to response and so now why would you bother to contradict the data if you're proud of that fact so now we're going to do is we're going to swear in the uh the witnesses so uh and I would just say this too without objection all other opening statements will be included in the record and now we'll introduce today's
▶ 0:38:16Witnesses before we swear them in Mr Doug Ritter is the founder and chairman of knife rights a nonprofit organization that Advocates on behalf of knife owners formed in 2006 knife rights advocate at the federal state and local levels and engages in litigations to challenge unduly restrictive laws pertaining to The Possession and ownership of knives M Diana Muller is the founder of women for gun rights a nonprofit organization that advocates for gun rights education firearm safety and violence prevention she's a retired police officer having served 22 years
▶ 0:38:47with the Tulsa Oklahoma Police Department Mr Dave McDermot is the founding partner of the McDermot Law Group a firm that specializes in criminal defense and personal injury cases he's a litigated criminal Justice cases for more than 27 years and specializes in self-defense cases Mr Gregory Jackson is the former deputy director of The White House Office of gun violence prevention he's a community organizer Advocate and campaign strategist we welcome all of you today we appreciate you your time coming and sharing your expertise with us we look forward to hearing
▶ 0:39:17from you today we're now going to ask you to be sworn in so if you please stand and raise your right hand do you each of you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge information and belief so help God thank you you may be seated and the record will reflect the witness has Witnesses have answered in the affirmative I want you to know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety
▶ 0:39:47accordingly we ask you to summarize your testimony in five minutes and what that means is um about 15 seconds before I'll just give a couple of wraps so you know that it's time to wrap it up and then once you hit to five minutes um I'll I'll hit it a little harder so you know that you're approaching um filibuster territory and then um at some point I'll just have to interrupt I'll try not to interrupt because uh we do want to hear what you have to say our first
▶ 0:40:18witness today is going to testify is Mr Ritter you may begin chairman bigs ranking member mcbath members of the the committee thank you for inviting me to testify about the knife owners protection act or Copa this bill is common sense Criminal Justice Reform that would protect law-abiding knife owners when they are traveling throughout the US despite whether they are traveling through States or localities with restrictive laws please indulge me for
▶ 0:40:48a moment for a hypothetical imagine a chef is driving across the US to cook at guest appearances perhaps from or in your own districts the chef has numerous knives in his vehicle that many of which may exceed some arbitrary local length limitation now imagine the chef is stopped by the police for I don't know a broken tail light and the police officer asks do you have any weapons in the vehicle the chef being the responsible citizen that he is
▶ 0:41:18discloses that although he doesn't consider them weapons he has knives in his vehicle this simple scenario could result in the shaft being arrested and charged it could result in severe consequences for the chef and in turn for his family Copa would protect our chef from unnecessary encounters with the police which too often end in tragedy this bill is the right policy for everyone it levels the playing field for all this bill is
▶ 0:41:48what this is why knife law reform measures have received bipartisan support in many states under Copa if possession of the knife is legal where the journey starts and ends and the knife is locked up in accordance with Copa a knife owner a knife owner would no longer be threatened with the rest simply for traveling from one place to another even if they have to pass through a jurisdiction where the knife is illegal
▶ 0:42:19currently those who travel across the country with knives for work and Recreation are subject to arrest and prosecution under a very confusing Patchwork of inconsistent state and local laws and regulations what is perfectly legal in one place may be a serious crime just over the border of that jurisdiction and can carry significant penalties including jail time moreover enforcement is not uniform even within jurisdictions in response to this problem over the past 16 years
▶ 0:42:5051 Criminal Justice Reform bills have been enacted in 32 states to repeal bans on various knives are possessed for work and Recreation and most have had bipartisan support in fact the knife reform legislation has been passed in seven of the 10 states represented on this committee five of them with bipartisan support Georgia New York Tennessee Texas and Wisconsin other states already do not ban knives of any sort yet some
▶ 0:43:20states and many other localities still have knife bans on the books virtually all of the existing knife banss were in instituted against the background of racial bias after the Civil War in the late 1950s we also know all too well minorities and the economically disadvantaged are too often inappropriately stopped by law enforcement sometimes with tragic consequences this bill simply ensures that owners with their knives locked up in accordance with this proposed law are protected
▶ 0:43:50and not subject to unjust prosecution for possessing a knife that is legal in the vast majority of the states knives are one of humankind's oldest tools possessed and carried by hundreds of millions they are carried daily by law-abiding laborers truck drivers campers hikers Sportsmen and sports women and many others as they travel this great nation Copa would simply provide Safe Harbor to someone traveling with knives where is lawful for the knives to be possessed at the both points of origin and
▶ 0:44:20destination so long as the knives are transported in accordance with the specific requirements that keep them inaccessible during the intervening travel these knives will not be a threat to anyone since they are required to be locked up this bill cannot be used to protect Bad actors if someone transports a knife with the intent to commit an offense that is punishable by imprisonment for more than one year that person cannot be protected by this law also Copa does not override
▶ 0:44:50TSA regulations I strongly urge everyone on this committee Republican and Democrat alike to support Copa this is not a partisan bill it is a balanced solution to the difficult Patchwork of knife laws throughout the United States Copa is a Criminal Justice Reform Bill that protects innocent knife owners while ensuring Bad actors are not shielded I look forward to answering any questions the committee may have thank you Mr Ritter and now we recognize Mr Jackson
▶ 0:45:21for his five minutes uh thank you chairman bigs ranking member mcbath and members of the committee for inviting me to be a part of this important hearing uh I'm Greg Jackson the former deputy director for the White House Office of gun violence prevention uh that led uh our country to a 25% reduction in homicides during the Biden Harris Administration uh I spent the last decade of my life working to address gun violence from across the country and from teens lost in shootings at festivals in Baltimore to Bowlers in Leon it is crystal
▶ 0:45:51clear that gun violence is shattering communities across our country and stealing from America with President Jefferson acknowledges our natural rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as someone raised on a farm in rural Virginia some of my earliest memories were hunting with my father and celebrating the rich Heritage of his first rifle a Winchester uh Ranger uh shotgun as he handed it down to me uh but in 2013 uh my life changed forever uh when I was caught in the crossfire uh when walking home in Washing DC
▶ 0:46:21and the bullet that struck me uh left me within 50% uh of dying that night um and and uh one of the hardest nights of My Life by far uh but since I was shot more than a million Americans have been shot or killed by this crisis uh students in elementary schools worshippers and churches senior citizens and grocery stores and even fans at Super Bowl parades you know every year over 140,000 Americans are shot and that's equivalent to double the crowd of the Super Bowl uh that's equivalent to our entire active duty for the US Marine
▶ 0:46:52corpes uh being shot every single year uh and this is now the leading cause of death for youth in America and also a leading cause of death for pregnant women in America and now a leading cause of newly disabled Americans and during the height of the pandemic uh gun death surged increasing homicides by 45% and even gun suicides by nearly 10% and as the nation mourned in 2022 when mass shooting struck in Buffalo and naldi uh activists like myself and those sitting behind me uh demanded action and we saw
▶ 0:47:22Democrats and Republicans step up and work together to pass the first law in 30 years the bipartisan safer communities act uh this bill took important steps to advancing our background check system uh making gun trafficking a federal offense and prohibiting gun purchases from domestic abusers it also invested $15 billion which created the largest investment in youth mental health adding 14,000 school-based mental health professionals to our schools uh creating the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline and also
▶ 0:47:52provided historic investments in law enforcement and community-based violence Intervention Program programs across our country and after signing this law uh President Biden created our office to implement this law to to uh expand Partnerships to improve services for those impacted but also to identify new ideas and when we saw things like 76% of school shootings coming from guns in the home we work with the Department of Education to launch the first ever school-based safe storage campaign when we saw
▶ 0:48:22uh you know Glock switches terrorizing communities in places like Birmingham work with ATF to shut down over 300 350 websites that were selling these Glock switches to Americans from China and we took Innovative approaches to address this crisis uh within the bounds of the law and the Second Amendment uh but most importantly our actions saved lives in 2023 we saw a 12% decline in homicides and in 2024 we surpassed those those reductions uh bringing down homicides by 14%
▶ 0:48:53And a 10% reduction in violent crimes uh and these ructions were actually steepest in major cities that had tough gun laws and had strong leaders resourcing law enforcement and Community Based strategies Boston went down 80% uh Greensboro down 41% Milwaukee down 42% Philadelphia down 36% Baltimore down 22% the State of Arizona down 50% the steepest decline in that state's history and even places like Miami saw the lowest number of homicides
▶ 0:49:23since the 1950s uh there's no accident uh this is no accident when we see these numbers this is a direct result of strong gun laws and strong investments in strategies that we know work and can save lives um and frankly I'll close with this I mean these percentages and data um I think for so many people you hear them and you see them as numbers um but we know there more than numbers uh you know in 2023 I lost my mentee DeMarcos uh he was literally on his front porch um after basketball practice and was shot
▶ 0:49:53and killed as a bystander I mean you literally see next to a strong leader and Champion congressman mcbath who lost her son to a fatal but preventable shooting uh and we know that with every number and every life we save that's one more family that gets to go to a wedding instead of a funeral that gets to attend a baby shower uh instead of walking to a hospital to decide if their loved one has been lost uh and so we stand proudly by this work we know that these gun laws and these resources they save lives
▶ 0:50:24they make our family safer they make your family safer and they make America safer thank you thank you and now uh we're going to recognize Mr mcder for his 5 minutes thank you good morning chairman bigs ranking member mcbath and distinguished members of this subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to share my experiences as a leading self-defense attorney in this country my name is David mcdermit I've been a private criminal defense attorney for 27 years I'm
▶ 0:50:54the founding partner of mcder Law Group which is also referred as is not your typical attorneys over the past 10 years I focused on a niche area of Defending people after they've had to defend themselves I refer to these cases as self-defense cases although prosecutor's office refers to them as murder cases attempt murder cases or a host of other cases stemming from criminal charges I provided legal representation to hundreds of people throughout the country both before and after they've been involved in self-defense incident and you'd be hardpressed to find anybody that's litigating more of these cases I have appeared on or in multiple news channels podcasts magazines
▶ 0:51:24radio shows and newspapers to discuss these cases and answer questions on self-defense laws I've given countless lectures in front of thousands of people in multiple States throughout the country on the issue of self-defense and I've g a nationwide reputation for consistently uh securing not guilty verdicts after asserting self-defense on behalf of my clients a good the number of people that I've represent in this manner are US Concealed Carry Association members also known as the uscca uscca is one of the largest and fastest growing organizations dedicated to educating and training responsible gun owners I'm a proud member of the usca and one of the critical response
▶ 0:51:54attorneys for over 860,000 members Nationwide training and education are Paramount to being a responsible gun owner and in my opinion Nobody Does this better than the usuca this type of exposure and knowledge helps to navigate through these stressful and highly intense situations to better understand what people should and shouldn't do and where necessary to save lives in the process I'm incredibly passionate about what I do for a couple reasons first I believe in what I do I believe in a person's constitutional right to defend him or herself as well as others second I was a victim of a random act of violence which also allows me to personally relate to the fear my clients describe when they find
▶ 0:52:24themselves involved in situations at the age of 17 I was walking with my then girlfriend now wife Dana one of my sisters and new friends when a large group of gang members ran over to us as they grabbed the head off the head of one of my friends I quickly turned to my sister and Dana and told them to run I was certain we were about to be attacked as soon as I could say this though I was hit very hard in the head with a blunt object I merely went down to my knees as I was beaten repeatedly with a lead pipe and baseball bat D and my sister were held at gunpoint as these gang bangers continue to beat me bloody as luck would have a police officer happen to drive by in the parking lot next to where this was happening and the gang
▶ 0:52:54members quickly dispersed nobody wakes up and says I hope today is the day where I get attacked and I wonder if I'm going to die unfortunately these acts of random violence happen more than we want to believe we often see or hear about these incidents in the news when we turn on the TV or the radio with such a focus and emphasis on violent crimes it comes as little surprise that more and more people have decided to apprach Firearms to defend themselves unfortunately many people find themselves in situations where they're forced to defend themselves and then being criminally charged after doing so my firm has had five self-defense jur trials set this month alone the first of these trials was
▶ 0:53:25scheduled to start yesterday as luck would haveit we were able to convince a prosecutor to dismiss the case against our client I have no shortage of exposure to these types of cases which is why I'm excited to be in front of you to share some perspective as to what happens after someone has been involved in a self-defense shooting I often say this with self-defense shooting cases you can go from being a victim of the aggressor to being a victim of the system as quickly as you pull the trigger our system is fly when it comes to self-defense is there's a lot of ignorance when it comes to this topic the fact that we lack uniformity in our nation's laws is a significant contributing factor
▶ 0:53:55for example if you're being attacked and reasonably believe you're about to receive great violing harmmer death some states require you to attempt to run or flee from your attacker before using lethal Force to defend yourself while others allow you to stand your ground whether and how you can defend yourself shouldn't come down to what state you're in everyone should have the right to defend themselves in the same way the disparity between these different rules of engagement concerning self-defense has caused a lot of confusion from my personal experience this confusion is not merely confined to people outside legal profession but people in the legal profession as well I've seen attorneys criminal defense attorneys
▶ 0:54:25Prosecuting attorneys and even judges that have been mistaken about the self-defense laws of the jurisdiction in which they practice if this isn't bad enough there's such a Negative stigma concerning firearms in this country many people believe that all firearms are bad some even going so far as to believe that people that own firearms are bad as well many believe that they shouldn't be able to carry or to defend themselves with Firearms some of these people that share these beliefs are Judges others are potential jurors imagine being the victim of a violent attack being robbed being Car Act imagine you reasonably believe you're about to receive great bodily harm or death imagine the only way
▶ 0:54:55to stop this threat is to shoot the attacker imagine protecting yourself under these circumstances now imagine a legal system that is divided in terms of how it perceives this incident A system that regards you as a criminal after defending yourself a system that arrests you a system that criminally charges you a system where attorneys and or judges don't always apply the correct law a system where you are being prejudged merely because you want a firearm and or because you choose to protect yourself with that firearm this is not the system we want for the people of the United States thank you for the opportunity to be here today I welcome any questions thank you thank
▶ 0:55:25you Mr M now we recognize Miss Muller for her five minutes good morning thank you chairman bigs and ranking member MC maath and raskins um I'm Diana mher I'm a 22-year retired police officer from Tulsa Police Department I'm a national and World Champion shooter and a founder of women for gun rights a non-partisan organization dedicated to safeguarding the Second Amendment it's an honor to represent the countless women who have experienced Unthinkable tragedy and
▶ 0:55:55crime like murder rape domestic violence and stocking their stories are absolutely horrifying but underscore the importance of our organization and the desire of citizens to protect themselves and their families everyone in this room Democrat and Republican red shirt or teal shirt we all have the same goal we all want to be safe women for gun rights believes that education is the key to firearm safety and
▶ 0:56:25violence prevention women are the fastest growing group of gun owners in our nation and for good reason we are smaller and less equipped for violence and Firearms level the playing field in an attack from a larger faster as salant women are choosing to carry to protect a life not to take a life I applaud the majority for having this hearing highlighting the positive attributes of guns and gun ownership and welcoming input from people with experience with Firearms with training and with violence
▶ 0:56:57with 22 years of work in the police work I can tell you that you are your own responder on February 22nd of 2024 lak and Riley went for a jog in broad daylight on a campus in a nice area she was physically fit she's brilliant she's beautiful but she had no idea the evil she would meet that day she fought for 18 minutes to save her life I've been in fights and 2 minutes is a long time she fought for 18
▶ 0:57:27she was her own first responder but she didn't have the tools to come out of Victor one of our best tools is our mind and how we prepare that is critical for survival words have power and each of you have influence in your communities if you were telling women that they can you can they cannot protect themselves or that she's more likely to have gun taken from her and used against her you're creating a victim women for gun rights is intent on empowering
▶ 0:57:57women and creating Victors not victims stop telling women they can't they can for example one of our delegates from New Mexico was asleep in bed middle of the night a serial rapist let out early broke into her home attacked her in bed he had a firearm she fought him gained control of his firearm and shot him three times and ran out of the house the gun that was intended to harm her saved life
▶ 0:58:28on the other hand you have Amanda she was prepared she had a concealed carry permit she was a self-defense person and she parked next to the campus station but one night going to her car a violent attack happened he raped her not only did he rape her he went on to kidnap rape and kill his third victim he's in prison now but Amanda is confident if she had not been legislated out of the opportunity
▶ 0:58:58to protect herself her story and the other girl story would have come out differently the law the common sense law that was supposed to protect her was the law that made her a victim and caused her and her pain and another to lose her life I implore you stop W working against women and start empowering them if you want to save lives I respectfully request that this body training for our citizens especially women
▶ 0:59:28to learn how to avoid conflict and survive an attack with any tool she deems fit for the job it's her body it's her choice right I'll close with this the Second Amendment and self-defense for that matter should not be a partisan issue but it seems like the Democrats have coalesced against it I for one I'm encouraged by the efforts of this Congress and this Administration to restore our constitutionally protected freedoms and make guns great
▶ 0:59:59again thank you chair now recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin Mr Tiffany for his five minutes thank you Mr chairman uh Mr mcder I take it you're from Chicago in the windy city right that's correct um tell us um everything so I'm just north of you in Wisconsin everything I understand is that you have um some of the toughest gun laws in the country in the city of Chicago in certain respects but we also have the right to stand your ground so yes we have tough gun laws but when it comes to self-defense we do
▶ 1:00:29have the right to stand your ground although most people don't know that have those tough gun laws made Chicago safer not in my opinion not at all unfortunately there are as I'm sure you know approximately 120 firearms in this country for every hundred citizens a lot of those Firearms are in Chicago there's a period of time where the the vast majority uh during covid were being purchased out of Illinois um so we have a tremendous amount of firearms that beinged purchas to combat the firearms that are already in existence there more
▶ 1:00:59and more people are being attacked violently in in Chicago more and more people are in serious fear of uh being attacked by those individuals and they're trying to as best as possible arm themselves against the situation and yet those tough gun laws have not um reverse that trend is that correct not in any way okay Miss Mueller um do uh gun-free zones work we see gun-free zones you see the signs regularly schools other places like that do gunfree zones work no sir they do not they are actually the opposite of what
▶ 1:01:30they are intended to do um when you see a gunfree zone 94% of Mass public shootings happen in gunfree zones they are killers they are killers yeah so for ex I've had a couple School administrators say to me that just give us the option to be able to not put that sign gunfree Zone on the front of our school and it actually would make it safer do you agree with those School administrators I absolutely agree I believe that if you put the sign that said that there were people armed in there and
▶ 1:02:00people weren't actually armed that that would make your your school safer I want to talk to you a little bit about you in the final page of the testimony that I saw from you in regards to mental health um and um I really find it very interesting where you get into psychotropic drugs and things like that and uh how much we give this to people and in particular I'm concerned about the amount of psychotropic drugs that are given to Boys in like six seven years years of age in kindergarten first grade to control their behavior
▶ 1:02:30and I believe it's rewiring their brains now I don't have scientific evidence of that but I think we should be doing some research in regards to it tell us what you think are some solutions for uh that could be helpful to prevent some of these shootings that happen as a result of mental health breakdowns that's a great question um I do and I'm an autod doctor and that is a deep deep well that you just dove into too um but I do know that when you tell me that there are Black Box warning labels
▶ 1:03:00and that it causes homicidal and suicidal tendencies that that's pretty much a no-brainer as to why don't we look and do some studies as to how these drugs are affecting our kids and even our adults so it's I would like I would like research in that area do you um have you not found much research because I haven't either and it seems to me it's something that um there should be you know you think about the National Institute of Health and how they've squired or or
▶ 1:03:31um I can't use that term here at the deis um how they've wasted money uh the American taxpayers money it seems like something like this would be a really good research project especially as some leading universities around America I mean isn't there much more research that needs to be done well and I'm glad that you brought that up because just like it seems like there there's one-sided research in in several different areas uh not only in the mental health and how it affects uh guns but also just the gun related deal because the CDC
▶ 1:04:02did do a study in 2013 and the numbers that that the saves that's what's missing from this conversation is that the number of 45 48,000 deaths annually from Firearms related causes is a horrible number but you guys are leaving out the conversation the the number of saves that study I think it said 3 million up to 3 million saves annually and if we're going to look at apples and apples yes 45,000 deaths is terrible but
▶ 1:04:32when you compare that to the 3 million that it saved we should be having that conversation as well uh it's it's disingenuous yeah um thank you in regards to that and it's scrubbed from the CDC it's no longer there and Mr chairman I think that we should uh be following up with the administration to try to get better research in regards to this and get more comprehensive research I want to ask one uh other question for Mr Ritter give us some context of these crime statistics that we've just been hearing from the other side hasn't crime been going down for a few
▶ 1:05:02decades at a spike in 2020 and uh now is coming back down could you give us some context gentleman's time has expired but we'll allow the witness to answer so these statistics primarily deal with a broad range of weapons you my concern is knives uh we certainly see that uh crimes committed with Knives have remained somewhat steady over the years
▶ 1:05:32if you look at the FBI statistics and we know that the majority of those crimes are created are are committed with chefs knives um so if if you if you want to ban knives maybe take everyone's Chef siiz away heeld back Mr chairman thank you chair now recognizes the ranking member Miss mcbath thank you Mr chair and I just before I ask my questions I just want to say in reference to what Mr mcdermid said is absolutely
▶ 1:06:02the truth it's correct the guns coming into Illinois we know specifically our traffic from outside that state as that's happening all around the country um the office of gun violence prevention made demonstrable uh Improvement in reducing gun violence in America and its first days in office the Trump Administration eliminated the office threatening the progress that we've made and gun violence Mr Jackson my questions are for you if you can be succinct because I have a number of questions for you the Trump
▶ 1:06:32White House shuttered the office of gun violence prevention what work won't happen as a result of that well there's no longer a team that's focused every day on getting the resources to life-saving strategies we talked about domestic violence but one of our jobs was pushing over $450 million to states to help them Implement strategies to to remove firearms from domestic abusers but now without our office there to oversee the dollars getting to the communities needed implementing and Expediting uh laws or executive actions um frankly
▶ 1:07:02processes will be slowed and unfortunately lives will be lost please tell us how state and local governments have taken up the mantle of the white house uh office of gun violence prevention yeah I mean seeing the results that we saw federally uh when we started the administration there was only one Statewide office of gun violence prevention uh now there's 14 uh there were only 20 at the city level now there's 140 uh and across the country watching cities and states think about how do they prevent violence looking at an all of government approach to not
▶ 1:07:32only keep guns out of the hands of those who are most at risk or most vulnerable but how do we invest in mental health behavioral health Community violence intervention crime gun intelligence law enforcement uh to reduce violence some Republicans are attempting to Def to defund federal law enforcement including the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco firearms and explosives the ATF how important is the ATF to State and local law enforcement's efforts to solve violent crime and protect our communities
▶ 1:08:03uh when we traveled the country uh we saw we heard firsthand from local law enforcement how important ATF is there are real limitations to what local law enforcement can do and we looked at uh for example ATF prosecuted over 680 gun traffickers like Mr mcder said guns that are moving from one state into another ATF is the team that can prosecute and get those those criminals off the streets uh they also made sure that 4,600 domestic abusers um were prohibited from getting firearms and made
▶ 1:08:33sure they didn't purchase firearms through the enhanced background check system um so the ATF is crucial um to look at how guns are moving across States and causing harm but also looking Upstream at how do we hold traffickers gun dealers and the manufacturers accountable thank you and everyone is affected by gun violence have rural communities um been receptive to these CVI programs we rural communities have heavily embraced um our work and frankly we think about gun violence
▶ 1:09:03it's it's homicides and suicides are such a devastating uh part of this problem but we know that suicides are most intensely impacting older white males in Rural America and that's why our office partnered with the Department of Veterans Affairs even connected with the Department of Agriculture think about how do we educate our older Americans about lethal means and safe storage but also started to empower families on how they can leverage tools like extreme risk protection orders to ensure that their Elder family members are safe even
▶ 1:09:33in those moments of Crisis um so what more should we be doing to support state and local law enforcement well we have to continue to invest and resource them and we had a Roundtable with uh President Biden with police Chiefs from across the country and the number one thing that they said supported their work was having true Community Partners and that's where investments in community violence intervention and victim Services um played a huge role in ensuring that it's not just law enforcement trying to solve this problem that we have uh
▶ 1:10:04Health departments and doctors and Community organizations and schools and principles all equipped with tools and resources to prevent violence before it happens um so we have to keep building on that we have to strengthen the full ecosystem um that's working together to keep our community safe uh and we can do that by passing the office of gun violence act that will create an office um beyond the White House um but also just protecting those invest those important Investments through the Appropriations process there's been so much success but we also have
▶ 1:10:34so much more to do and we have to keep going we have to continue to make sure that we're keeping all of our communities safe uh I myself having been exposed to gun violence directly I care about everyone's Community I don't care what side of the aisle we sit on we have to keep our community safe I have a unanimous consent requests I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record and article by Alicia uh uh iberi entitled more than half of us teachers
▶ 1:11:04think being armed would make students less safe reports findes published by CNN on May 21st without objection thank you Gentle ladies time has expired chair now recognizes the gentleman from Alabama Mr Moore thank you Mr chairman I appreciate the witnesses being here today and attendance um Miss meller are you familiar with the ATF Zero Tolerance policy that was implemented implemented by Biden's ATF I have heard of it um what are some of the consequences U of taking these aggressive enforcement actions do you think
▶ 1:11:34well I'm I'll begin with I'm a professional shooter I'm not an FFL but what I do understand and I hear from people who are ffls is that um the Biden Administration and the way they they went to it wasn't a partnership anymore it was more of an adversarial um relationship and therefore it really hurt the relationship between the ffls and the ATF so I think it was um I think it was a mistake and um not not not not really going after the right
▶ 1:12:05target yeah I mean um they're usually our front lines right I mean they're they're keeping uh prohibited buyers off off of the purchasing roles if you will so I would think working with the ATF would be beneficial but often I think it looked like it was adversarial um and some of the ffls were targeted in many ways I think by the ATF so it was counterproductive really what they were intended to do and what they should have been doing maybe it's two different things and I think it sends a wrong message a lot of times so tell me I've got uh a wife and two daughters they're
▶ 1:12:35both concealed carry tell me how being able to carry a firearm really in it it it levels of playing field for our female folks who are on the streets in dangerous situations tell us a little bit about that how does that help it really does a level the playing field and give us a chance um people I believe that the people people that advocate for gun control are doing it with good intentions uh but they're doing it from a place of privilege if you don't think that you
▶ 1:13:05need the Second Amendment and you don't think that you uh need to carry a firearm or have training or have self-defense as a as a defense um then you're coming from a place of privilege you don't have you're not living in a community that is uh plagued with violence you're not living in a that needs to have that kind of security so I would check your privilege and say that the the Second Amendment is what gives everyone the right
▶ 1:13:35to be safe and I would agree with that I think very often you know the the left in the country wants to disarm its citizens and then at the same time they often you know call for defunding the police and you you put those citizens in a tough spot because you don't want them armed to defend themselves and in many cases the Das and AGS in those communities were turning criminals to loose with the slap on the wrist basically sometimes just cash bail and so I think it puts those those folks in those communities in grave danger uh Mr mcder and I um I know this Memorial Day weekend
▶ 1:14:05in Chicago you said there was actually the statistics were 34 was shot eight were killed and the youngest was a 20-year-old and and you said in Chicago we're seeing more and more gun purchases but why are we seeing that what's going on well quite frankly the reason we're saying more people purchasing Firearms is because there's such an emphasis on defunding the police there's so many there's so many different rules and regulations put in place to to restrict what police can and can't do uh with respect to for example carjackings which are which are very significant
▶ 1:14:35crime in Chicago they're very very often being taken place and we are now saying the police can't or not just now but we've been saying police can't pursue these vehicles after a certain speed there's no way for people to be able to protect themselves uh or excuse me there's no way for people to really feel a particular comfort in the police being able to protect them uh them from these types of uh dangers they're seeing it it's being it's it's it's constantly on the news it's constantly in their face and more and more people are purchasing Firearms to be able to defend themselves and I think a big issue here a lot of people direct the issue towards guns it's not there's not an issue
▶ 1:15:06with guns the issue is with criminals and we continue to empower criminals on a daily basis we continue to to write laws uh that that that help criminals to get away with more crime and to uh disable at the same time those those law-abiding citizens they're being forced to put they're being put in a position where they're forced to defend themselves great with that Mr chairman uh I'll yield back gentleman yields chair now recognizes the gentleman the ranking member of the entire committee from Maryland Mr Rasin thank you Mr chairman um so
▶ 1:15:36Mr Jackson guns are the leading cause of death for young people in America guns are I learned from you that the leading cause of death for pregnant women in America they are the leading cause of disabilities for newly disabled people I learned from you um I know that the us um has more Firearms than people um and I know that excuse me I know that um
▶ 1:16:06we've got a firearm homicide rate 25 times higher than other comparable wealthy countries now I hear the argument that because our society is swimming in firearms that people need more Firearms to defend themselves um of course people have a constitutional right to purchase a hand gun to defend themselves right under the hel versus District of Columbia case
▶ 1:16:37isn't that right correct so people have that right so it seems to me that the argument that is being Advanced as a huge non sequator the claim is is being made uh pushing an open door that people have a right to a gun to defends if that's how they choose to defend themselves and therefore we shouldn't do anything else to try to limit this staggering amount of gun violence in society now you're here to tell us that
▶ 1:17:08the Biden Administration saw great success will you just give us what were the major elements of that success in reducing gun violence right I mean just to build on your your statement I mean if guns made us safer we would definitely be the safest country in the world um considering how many firearms arms are in our communities uh but we knew that gun violence is about more than just solving a crime it's about preventing a Health crisis and so we looked at strategies to help victims heal um investing in the vi The Crime Victims
▶ 1:17:38Fund in VCA um investing in violence intervention programs and law enforcement crime intelligence strategy okay were any of those things struck down as violative of anybody's second amendment rights no okay so why isn't everybody celebrating across the aisle that we actually saved thousands of lives through the things the Biden Administration did without violating anybody's second amendment rights baffles me U because I think we should all have the same goal of saving lives and we now have a strategy that has been proven for two years in a row
▶ 1:18:08to save historic lives and our cities are frankly I mean Boston had an 82% reduction I don't know how we can even debate 82% reduction in homicide gun homicides yes so um can you explain this to me um people have a right to a gun uh to defend themselves everybody agrees to that you never challenged that did you in your office correct okay um why is
▶ 1:18:38it that people are taking the position we shouldn't be doing anything to reduce gun violence other than selling more guns you know I think frankly there's um you know the gun industry is Big um we talked about there being over you know 20,000 30,000 25,000 ffls um and frankly that may not sound big to some folks but that's enough to fill Madison Square Garden and there's a lot of profit to be made in selling Firearms
▶ 1:19:09but we've seen first hand that that's not how we prevent violence guns don't make us safe preventing violence is what makes us safe and that's what we Pro that can that has worked so the whole point of the social contract if you read John Lock or hobs or rouso anybody who wrote about the social contract is we'll be safer coming together with laws than we would be if we were just in a state of War a state of violence uh against each other um so
▶ 1:19:39if we're talking about how to promote self-defense aren't the laws that you're talking about themselves instruments of self-defense and Community safety correct I mean I think we should always focus on preventing a conflict in the first place I mean we talked a little about stand your ground laws here today um but I'll be I'll be upfront with you if I tried to Stand My Ground when I was shot I'd be dead uh because evading is the number one way to move what about there's so many of these spectacular
▶ 1:20:10Mass gun shootings at schools and Walmarts and so on where there were armed guards around right right and there are lots of cases where they just go right through the the guards and we think about avaldi where we had hundreds of law enforcement you know where we had Buffalo where armed folks engaged um to shoo her and lost and we have to realize that the way that we can truly save lives is preventing someone from walking onto a campus or approaching senior citizens in a grocery store in the first place thank you you
▶ 1:20:40back Mr chairman gentleman yields chair now recog the gentleman from California Kylie thank you uh Mr chair I'd like to bring to the committee's attention uh what is the single most radical attack on the second amendment that that we have seen uh in a long long time it is a bill uh that was just introduced in the California legislature AB 1333 uh the uh relevant text of which is here behind me
▶ 1:21:10and what this bill seeks to do is to effectively overturn the castle doctrine to say that it is no longer a justifiable form of self-defense to defend a habitation uh or property now you might say well okay something crazy is being proposed in California what else is new uh but one of the advocacy groups uh for this measure in fact that by all report seems to have written the measure has stated that this bill
▶ 1:21:41is quote a blueprint for the rest of the nation and so I think it is worth taking very seriously the outrageous affront to the Second Amendment that this measure represents even jurisdictions that have the weakest protections uh for second the Second Amendment and for the right to self-defense uh have generally upheld the castle doctrine even states that impose a right to
▶ 1:22:11retreat uh let's say when you're confronted uh with deadly force still maintain the basic view that your home is your castle and you have the right to defend yourself if there is a home invasion after all if you're confronted in your home where are you supposed to retreat to I mean let's just try to get our minds around the absurdity of this idea you're asleep in your home in the middle of the night a
▶ 1:22:41b burglar breaks into your home is heading to the room where your young children are fast to sleep and what are you supposed to do you have to affirmatively somehow confirm that this individual is actually posing a risk this is what I believe the Latin is rebs Resa locator the thing speaks for itself he has just invaded your home in the middle of the night of course he's posing a risk so what are you supposed to
▶ 1:23:11do you're running through a metal detector and only then if it goes off you have the right to defend yourself and your family and your children just think about what the impact if this is going to be it will massively tip the scales in favor of the criminal in the case of such a confrontation it puts the onus on you the victim an ordinary citizen minding your own business in your own home whose home has just been invaded
▶ 1:23:42to somehow meet a set of legal requirements before exercising your inherent right to self-defense and the criminal knowing this will use it to press their Advantage indeed more broadly criminals knowing that homeowners have been rendered defenseless will be much more likely to burglarize homes and citizens knowing the legal Peril that they might face will be less likely to take steps to actually defend themselves
▶ 1:24:12which again will incentivize more burglaries again this is a measure that the lead advocacy group called a blueprint for the rest of the nation so maybe I'll pose this question uh to Mr mcder Miss mher if you have any thoughts as well um what do you see as the risk of a measure like this and how can we assure that we are protecting the Second Amendment rights of folks across the country in the face of these proposals thanks for the question
▶ 1:24:42I think uh more than anything else as Miss Muller put it many of these people that are enacting or proposing the enactment of these laws come from a place of privilege I represent a lot of these people post self-defense incident it's entirely different story it's entirely different when you have to speak on somebody's behalf defend them in court as to what they did and something that many people would think make sense it was something that was it was life sustaining was it was something which was necessary to preserve their lives the lives of them uh of their family criminals are not restricted in their ability to commit crimes
▶ 1:25:12uh but yet so many law abiding citizens are restricted in their ability to defend themselves and this is another way in which that happens I think a very serious concern here and I talked about in my opening statement is the fact that we are imposing or suggesting resting the imposition of additional uh Duty Retreat States Duty Retreat uh jurisdictions and this is very wrong this is this is basically coming from a place of I I liken this to Monday morning quarterbacking where you basically when I'm litigating these cases in court in in real time and I'm listening to all these different things and I'm
▶ 1:25:43taking this all in knowing what my client actually went through and you've got somebody that's that's sitting in the comfortable place of their home and they're watching this the the the football game on a big screen and they see all the different options that the foot that the a quarterback has when he hikes the ball the quarterback is seeing a number of different people running at him full speed big people getting ready to take him out has has seconds sometimes milliseconds to go ahead and respond in those types of situations and then people on Monday morning just like lawmakers unfortunately in different jurisdictions are saying you know what you should have done this
▶ 1:26:13differently and it's pretty sad it's pretty pathetic and it's not helping uh it's not helping people to defend themselves which is an innate right people everybody in this room can agree that everybody has a right to defend themselves it's just half this room is disagreeing as to why or how they can do that thank you gentleman's time is expire chair now recognizes the gentleman from New York Mr Goldman well I I agree with Mr mcdermid everybody in this room recognize there's a right to self-defense so I hope my colleague from California uh is permitted by his former colleagues to speak
▶ 1:26:43at the hearing on the California bill that is not a bill in this Congress um Mr mcder I I want to just clarify something you said um you said earlier on that in Chicago the gun laws have not worked um I beg to differ the every town gun law rankings that just came out and I'm happy to introduce this has Illinois in terms of its gun law strength
▶ 1:27:13at number three California's one Massachusetts two Illinois 3 my home state of New York 4 the problem with those St is that there is an iron pipeline where guns that are manufactured outside of those states are trafficked into those States the ATF is the federal government agency that is charged and I believe Mr Jackson am I right that the ATF is the is the only one with
▶ 1:27:43technology that can trace guns they're definitely the best at it yeah and so most most local law enforcement send the guns to the ATF to Trace so that they can figure out where they are coming from that allows us to enforce federal laws against gun trafficking now I I want to raise a different point here um because not only was Cash Patel recently confirmed
▶ 1:28:14to be the director of the FBI uh he has never managed uh local bakery much less an institution of the size of the FBI but then president Trump named him also to be the acting director of the ATF Mr Patel spoke at the inaugural Summit of an organization called The Gun Owners of America which says on its website that they advocate for abolishing the
▶ 1:28:45ATF Mr Jackson briefly can you just summarize what would happen if the ATF were abolished I mean we would lose the the ability to federally enforce Road gun dealers to focus on uh disrupting problematic uh iron pipelines as you spoke of there's multiple across the country uh to prosecute gun traffickers uh it would greatly uh handicap our uh background check system and our ability to
▶ 1:29:15uh identify and frankly deny uh dangerous sales of firearms uh and most importantly it will strip us of the ability to look out for emerging threats we know that there are things like Glock switches and innovations that are happening every day that are making weapons more Deadly Ghost guns as well now that's not just a potential problem that's a real problem because the president has issued an executive order to re-evaluate every gun regulation
▶ 1:29:46um that has been implemented by the Biden Administration through Mr Jackson and the excellent work part of the office of gun violence now the one of those rules is the engaged in the business of uh traff of selling guns rule which is clearly a target of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle and it's pretty remarkable to me because that rule
▶ 1:30:16which is often referred to as the zero tolerance policy revokes Federal firearm licenses for people who one willfully transfer a firearm to a prohibited person someone who the law says is not allowed to own a gun two fails to run a required background check three falsify records four failed to respond to a tracing request or five refuse to permit ATF to conduct an inspection
▶ 1:30:47in violation of the law in other words that regulation is designed solely to enforce the LA law and yet for some reason that is a purported infringement on our Second Amendment rights Miss Muller I have a couple quick questions for you um is there a Second Amendment right for a mentally ill person to own a firearm there isn't one that isn't is there a Second Amendment right for I just have a little time for
▶ 1:31:17someone uh convicted of or with an outstanding order uh from domestic violence to own a gun repeat the question please can someone who has committed domestic violence own a gun is there a Second Amendment right gentleman time is expired you may answer the question if you can thank you sir no there's not this is not a second amendment your time is expired sir thank you sh now recognize to the gentleman from Texas Mr Nels thank you Mr chairman and Mr Kylie thank you for your questions I you think about California well it's
▶ 1:31:47California you figured that you know uh as an old sheriff in Fort men County Texas we love the great state of Texas you come into the great state of Texas you start waving a gun around and threatening our citizens or you break into a home in the state of Texas you're leaving in a bag you will leave in a bag and as a sheriff many did breaking into people's homes their castles threatening scaring
▶ 1:32:19people that's California for you but I tell you not in the great state of Texas we won't allow it first I want to ask about the effect of left-wing Das charging people with crimes for engaging in obvious self-defense or defense of others Mr Daniel peny his name comes to mind as a recent example last year Mr Penny restrained Jordan Neely on the New York City subway after Neely continued to threaten women and children on the train which unfortunately resulted in his
▶ 1:32:49death I'm sure that uh Mr Penny didn't want to have to take the man's life nobody wants to do that although this was an obvious case of self-defense of others Manhattan da Alvin brag charged penny with manslaughter likely due to public pressure from the left-wing radicals who felt Mr Neely should have been allowed be allowed to threaten women and children with impunity and even though the jury came to an obvious outcome of a full AC quiddle didn't take long
▶ 1:33:20a full acquit the damage to Mr Penny had already been he had been through an 18-month ordeal in which his name and reputation they drugg it through the mud so the government the media's message to New Yorkers was clear dare to protect your citizens and we will destroy your life you know the old Good Samaritan do you have Good Samaritans out there anymore you may not have them anymore why would anybody do it when you have nut jobs like Alvin brg and others
▶ 1:33:50that want to go after and make the the individual that wants to help other people he's all of a sudden the suspect Mr mcdermit do these kinds of political pers prosecutions deter people from coming to the defense of others and how does that put at risk vulnerable populations like women and children and the otherly in other words how important is it how important is it for us to have a society where people feel empowered to come to the defense of the vulnerable
▶ 1:34:20Mr MCD obviously the uh question answers itself it's extremely important um we have a number of different problems first off many people recognize the right to defend themselves and very often they disregard the right to defend others um as happened in that particular case uh there are certain there are certain uniform I would say um rules in this in this space there are certain things that you see repeating themselves very often for example my clients that are being charged with very serious uh charges
▶ 1:34:51uh the majority of these clients the vast of these clients uh close to all of them have no criminal backgrounds yet the victims that are being that that are being uh the complaining Witnesses in these cases do have backgrounds they have violent backgrounds I have a client right now that's in custody they will not release from custody because she's been deter it's been determined that she's a danger to society she's a grandmother she's protecting herself she's protecting her daughter she's protecting her 75-year-old mother from two grown men that were beating on them and she's being charged
▶ 1:35:21so this is happening just far too often thank you Mr I got one question minute left talk about the Second Amendment uniformity and the Second Amendment based on the current laws of the states of of New Jersey Pennsylvania for example a Pennsylvania resident could receive an 18-month prison sentence and a $10,000 fine simply for possessing a knife in New Jersey that he is legally allowed to have in Pennsylvania so Mr Ritter how do you think that is in the spirit of the Second Amendment how does the the lack of uniformity
▶ 1:35:52among states even in what kind of of knife one can carry degrade the right to the the issue is under bruan there really is no defense for uh creating a ban on a particular kind of knife because all of these knives are common all of these knives are quite frankly less dangerous than a firearm uh
▶ 1:36:22the purpose of my bill is to ensure that if someone from your great state of Texas is going to the great state of New Hampshire and has to pass through New Jersey that they can do so without risk of being impr prisoned for simply carrying a knife that's legal at both the start and the finish of their Journey as long as they lock it up this is about protecting your constituents thank you Mr with that I yield back thank you gentlemen's times expired uh
▶ 1:36:52chair I recognize the gentl from North Carolina Mr nut thank you Mr chairman I think it's interesting that the uh my friends on the other side of the aisle have tiptoed around the issue and even claim to be not against the uh Second Amendment they're not hostile towards the Second Amendment but life experience and observation of any objective record shows that they are very hostile towards the Second Amendment even some of the cases that they have cited in limited support of their questions whether it be hel or bruan uh the Democratic party has been against
▶ 1:37:22those and locked step and have been challenging those at lower circuits ever since those opinions went into effect um and even in these questions the insinuation there are far too many guns in the United States you should pass more laws but don't buy more guns you should prosecute people who are too aggressive in self-defense you should prosecute the use of lethal Force even if it results in the death of an attacker uh these are things that are fundamentally contrarian and against uh the claim that they are not for the Second
▶ 1:37:52Amendment and and one of the statements that was made by a witness at the panel says that guns do not make us safe and as a career prosecutor I have to I have to differ in my opinion in the strongest sense and I'll start with you miss Muller uh do you agree with that statement and in your experience as a police officer one statement that you made um said that we are our own First Responders uh so in your experience ma'am
▶ 1:38:22what is what is your opinion on whether or not guns do in fact make us
▶ 1:39:22we're on a roll too yeah that was good what's up with that I I've tried must have just like whatever was happing your never go moment
▶ 1:41:01because they want you to yield your time at the end okay after he heard everything correct yep I know
▶ 1:41:32no it's all right must like short circuit
▶ 1:42:13can I grab Jim leave uh no he's going to come back uh Miss Lee is going to Y time give him a chance to speak right in the middle of my questions was it in the middle I
▶ 1:42:44know it w any weere noises I was asking and uh Miss meller she was hitting her button and it wouldn't oh well way the whole B go
▶ 1:43:52e e
▶ 1:46:51e e
▶ 1:47:33testing one 2 3 test test 1 2 3 yeah test 1 2 3 test 1 2 3
▶ 1:48:21okay e
▶ 1:49:05subcommittee's called back to order we appreciate your patience we've rebooted the whole system and uh we were Mr not had been recognized and so Mr not we recognize you for the completion of five minutes thank you Miss merer do you remember the question question I ask essentially the uh the notion that guns don't make us safe uh in your experience as a as a law enforcement officer as a woman who carries do you agree with that statement why or why not no sir I do
▶ 1:49:36not and I honestly believe that gun control is the of the racism the systemic racism that we hear about in America I mean think about the newly freed slaves uh what did they do to them they disarmed them they made it certain that they couldn't defend themselves so the bottom line is that gun control is racist and today the communities that are most impacted by violence
▶ 1:50:06they need they need the proper education about firearms firearms safety they don't need to be disarmed and in your experience ma'am are firearms used as a deterrent for violent crimes that could result in serious injury or death absolutely and that's what that CDC study showed and that's why no longer on their website is because it doesn't support their narrative right now in regards to your experience as a law enforcement officer ma'am um what what effect on safety in local communities did defunding the police and the
▶ 1:50:36open border policies of the Biden Administration have on uh Public Safety I think it was detrimental and I think that that's why Americans flew to the gun stores and we've had record sales where we're touting that the bipartisan uh bill has decreased crime well I would submit that it was because we've had over a million gun sales a month for the past four years and that there's
▶ 1:51:06an estimated 26 million firsttime gun owners so it's not that gun control is working maybe it's the opposite that gun that Firearms do prevent crimes uh also on the heels of defunding the police um Baltimore has hired police officers and they have uh prosecuted criminals that is how you maintain a safer Community now Mr mcder in regards to Chicago there's been a lot of talk about this iron Pipeline and so on and
▶ 1:51:36so forth but their current mayor Mr Johnson he campaigned as someone who was very hostile towards uh the police department he was very Progressive in his uh willingness to let positions go unfilled what what effect do local law enforcement backing the enforcing existing laws have on gun violence in Chicago and other cities where where violence is a problem thank you I believe uh Mr Rasin indicated that
▶ 1:52:07uh Chicago is is a place where there's been a lot of uh the gun law strength is has has become much better uh but if you ask the people of Chicago they don't feel safer they don't feel safer at all as a matter of fact they feel even more scared especially when you talking about things like such as defunding the police this gives rise to to a great concern a lot of people are as I said are going out purchasing firearms because they don't believe they can they can now feel that they have that type of protection there so it's it's created a number of different situations that weren't
▶ 1:52:37created before something that hasn't been brought up the number of people that are being charged after defending themselves is at an all-time high from my experience I don't know there are any statistics on that but from my experience there is there is a number there's a tremendous number of people that are being char chared that were never being charged before after defending themselves in Chicago I find it interesting that the other side of the aisle says we need to pass more laws that will reduce gun violence passing more laws right well because it's illegal to sell drugs but what do people do
▶ 1:53:07they sell drugs it's illegal to commit assault what do people do commit assault it's illegal to commit property crimes what do they do but they commit property crimes but if we just pass more laws the criminals who use Firearms will obey them that's the narrative absolutely that's The Narrative uh and obviously that's not what's happening we're seeing that we are disarming again disarming law abiding citizens is there a gun control measure that will not affect lawful responsible gun owners but will affect criminals gentleman times expired
▶ 1:53:37you may answer the question Mr mcder I'm sorry in what respect you're saying is there is there a law that could be passed that will not punish law-abiding responsible gun owners but will prohibit criminals from breaking the law not in this context not at all M Mr chairman the gentleman's time is expired yeah I understand you have a UC yeah but I actually have a point of order first now the the witness please State your point of order the the witness just uh falsely identified something that he claimed I said I'd never even mentioned the word Chicago if we could change the record on that or at least I'd like to clarify he he may have been thinking of something
▶ 1:54:07somebody else said but I never mentioned Chicago we're we're going to let it stand the record speaks for itself okay then I just want to state that that was completely false thank you now chair I have unanimous consent request to enter the record an article from Benjamin Weiss titled Dems demand details from Bondi on Trump's directive to review gun regulations published by courthouse news on March 3rd 2025 without objection uh chair now recognizes the gentleman from California Mr swell
▶ 1:54:38well this hearing is hold it we got a problem with the again I'll take as much time as I may you well I know I'm not giving you 1034 you don't want to give me 1034 so I was uh so they're checking on it so we're going to be in recess for another are we good we good okay all right I need I need some help watching that clock but now Mr
▶ 1:55:08swell please well this hearing is beautifully titled the right to self-defense I see some moms who are here who would like to talk about the right to self-defense because a lot of moms lost their children and many of the mass shootings conducted with assault weapons over the last 10 years so I would like to ask what was the self-defense
▶ 1:55:39in Aurora where 12 people killed what was the self-defense in New Town where 26 people were killed most of them babies little kids what was the self-defense in Orlando 49 people were killed what was the self-defense in Vegas when 58 people were killed what was the self-defense in Springs 26 people were killed what was the self-defense
▶ 1:56:09at Parkland where 17 people were killed students what was the self-defense at a synagogue in Pittsburgh where 11 people killed what was the self-defense in Thousand Oaks where 12 people were killed what was the self-defense in Gilroy where three people were killed what was the self-defense in El Paso where 22 people were killed what was the self-defense in Dayton where nine people were killed or Boulder where 10
▶ 1:56:39people were killed or the self-defense in Buffalo where another 10 were killed or Uvalde where 21 were killed mostly babies mostly little kids or Highland Park not an assault rifle or Charleston in a church or Santa Fe what was the self-defense when most parents hear that that there's a right to self-defense they say
▶ 1:57:09my kids have a right to go home my kids have a right to go home I should be able to look them in the eye in the morning when I send them off to school and not have to think about what they're wearing because I may have to identify them later and that's what parents do right now I know because they me I know because I have three littles two of them who are already doing Mass drills I talked to a substitute teacher recently who
▶ 1:57:40told me that a student came up to her in her classroom and said do you know where to us and she was confused and she said what are you talking about where do I put you and the students said you're not our normal teacher our normal teacher knows where to put us if somebody comes in here with a gun did they tell you where you're supposed to put us those are the questions that our children are asking right now
▶ 1:58:10will you protect me do you think they feel protected by hearing by putting into our streets and our communities the most dangerous weapons so they can go into the hands of the most dangerous people that doesn't protect anybody Mr Jackson I wanted to ask you and and thank you for your work can you think of a legitimate purpose for an untraceable unregistered
▶ 1:58:41no so would you agree that the only reason you need a what's called ghost gun is because you're a prohibited purchaser and you can't get one any other way or you intend to commit a crime and you don't want people knowing where the gun came from exactly MH I'd like unanimous consent Mr chairman to enter into the record a California Department of Justice report on California's fight against Ghost guns objection Mr Jackson can you talk about some of the
▶ 1:59:12preparations and trainings and studies you and your office had done around mass shootings and what we can do to not traumatize our kids because I think there is is trauma associated with having to go through some of these drills but to also not leave them unprepared if that ever came to their classroom yeah I mean we looked uh pretty intensely at how uh guns are impacting our schools and and frankly what steps have been taken and one thing that was clear is that uh the biggest threat are guns that are coming from the home uh 76%
▶ 1:59:43of school shootings come from the home and not just some Boogeyman in the alley um but the real work needs to be done is engaging parents to be more responsible in securing and storing their firearms to help prevent these tragedies that's not taking anyone's gun that's just saying there's things you can do to lock it up and keep it sa thank you I yield back gentleman yields back chair now recognizes the the chairman of the full committee Mr Jordan yeah I was just going to make a point earlier one of our Democrat colleagues talked about cash Patel running the
▶ 2:00:13ATF what I will say is um uh when the ATF was run by someone else I know some of the crazy things that happened any of you ever heard of malinowski what happened to Mr malinowski they they said that he had sold accused of selling six firearms that he wasn't supposed to sell instead of going they had a search warrant instead of going there to to to Brian Mal Ali while he worked highest paid Municipal Employee at the in Little Rock Arkansas worked at the bill in Hillary Clinton
▶ 2:00:44airport said to go on the airport and talking to him going to his house and then doing the search warrant they decided they were going to do a pre-dawn raid and they were all set to do it on one particular Friday and then they found out he wasn't home so they called it off and they said we're going to wait till the next Friday when he is home and go at again pre-dawn RAID 10 cars pull up ATF agents and police they go up the first thing you see from the doorbell
▶ 2:01:14cam is them putting the tape on the doorbell camera and then 53 seconds later Brian malinowski is shot in the head cuz he does what any Norm normal person would do it's why what Mr Kylie brought up about the crazy law they're proposing in California was defending himself he thought he was getting robbed defending himself gets shot in head and dies several hours later that's the ATF before so you can criticize casel that's ridiculous thank goodness he is running the ATF we don't have the same people who who who ran it
▶ 2:01:44when that happened to Mr mountain made no sense seconds why why not just execute the search warrant like you should why not talk to him why not pick him up at the airport Mr Mali we're going to your house call your wife let them know where we're coming we'll go there we'll execute the search war no they couldn't do it that way so I think the good Lord cash Patel is running the FBI and frankly uh interim director of the of ATF I don't know if you guys want to com miss m you can say something or Mr mcder
▶ 2:02:14I'll let you guys say something if you want but I thought amen amen God bless you I appreciate that I appreciate that I'll yield the rest of my I appreciate you the witnesses here today appreciate the chairman the good work he does I yield the rest of my time to the chairman thanks Mr chairman um Mr Ritter are knives included in the definition of arms under the Second Amendment uh certainly they have been considered arms for Millennia um perhaps man's oldest is there is there any uh cases Supreme Court or other
▶ 2:02:44Federal cases that that shed light on how knives are protected under the Second Amendment uh certainly both heler Brun uh bring up the subject of knives as arms and uh they are certainly protected by the Second Amendment under the under the uh Copa KN owners protection act um the purpose of that is allow someone to move from state to state and while they're actually in transit
▶ 2:03:15they don't have access to those to their knives is that correct that is correct and um so that's why there's been bipartisan support generes they don't have access to those knives but they also shouldn't be prosecuted for for transporting their their knives across state lines that is correct I mean the reason we get bipartisan support is because uh the bills that we propos are all about Criminal Justice Reform and people not being stopped simply because they're carrying a knife with
▶ 2:03:45no Criminal Intent whatsoever and and in Copa there's a provision dealing with private right of action why is that so important to the bill uh private right of action is very important to Copa because Copa is closely related to the Firearms owners protection act uh in fact it was originally based on that and unfortunately uh the second circuit in uh Taco versus Port Authority
▶ 2:04:16uh determined that uh those sorts of claims do not give rise to a PR private right of action so in some of the states where um folks are most in danger of being prosecuted for having an illegal knife even if they were to follow the the lock them up according to uh Copa um there's a precedent that they have no right of action and without a right of action there's
▶ 2:04:46very little deterence for rogue uh law enforcement or prosecutor to go after them despite what congress's intent may be thank you with that um the time I'm going to yield it back to Mr Jordan who's gone and so the time has expired and now recognize the gentle L from California Miss Miss lur Lee I'm sorry Florida I'm sorry what did I say California oh gracious uh oh understandable
▶ 2:05:16mistake Mr chairman um I uh will yield my time to the chairman thank you you um Miss Müller are people who want to restrict second amendment rights supportive of women's rights negative how so well like I mentioned in my opener that we are smaller and less equipped for violence and that is why women are the fastest growing demographic of gun owners uh it levels the playing field and if anybody uh anybody thinks that they don't need a
▶ 2:05:46firearm or chooses not to have a firearm that's their choice uh but they're going to do so from a place of privilege because they may have security or they may live in a community that doesn't necessarily need to have security but not all of us can afford to have our own security therefore we have to take it in our own hands and I know mothers that refuse to Outsource uh the security of their children and like Mr swell said uh schools should school shootings and all of those shootings that you mentioned I was trying to keep up
▶ 2:06:16with you but I was thinking gunfree Zone gunfree Zone gunfree Zone gunfree Zone obviously gunfree zones do not work they're dangerous they're deadly and we can protect our children and we can not traumatize our children uh there's a program called faster saves lives and I would love to discuss that with you thank you and Mr mcdermit should Law Enforcement Officers be allowed to carry a firearm in uh gun-free school zones around public
▶ 2:06:47absolutely and would you I'm sorry I was just going to I just going to further along those I'm going to get back to that in a second just I there's two questions I really want to get here um's that okay yeah Miss Muller okay would you have liked the option to purchase your service weapon ah right when you retired as a police officer yes sir okay now Mr McDermot I saw you writing furiously um when my colleague from California was iterating V various
▶ 2:07:18uh shootings and I wondered what in the devil were you writing and what was would be your response all right uh loaded question no pun intended but I just when when Mr swallow was indicating kept on asking was it self-defense here was it self-defense here was it self-defense here it just kept hitting me a particular way if there had been some form of self-defense if something that if somebody had been able to defend themselves in those particular areas if somebody had actually
▶ 2:07:48uh done so we wouldn't have been we wouldn't have been naming off these higher numbers instead as to miss Muller's point and what I what I stand by myself is we have all these different gunfree zones which is basically a fallacy uh they do nothing to make our community safer uh they basically leave the good defenseless against criminals uh law abiding citizens defenseless against criminals and they take advantage of it they take full advantage of it how difficult is it for someone traveling across state lines to know what the self-defense
▶ 2:08:18laws are in each it's incredibly difficult and I'll tell you when I said at the very beginning i' I've lectured in front of thousands of people now one of the very first questions I ask after defining whether people in the room know what it is to be able to use lethal force and when you're able when you're intell to use lethal Force to defend yourself one of the very first questions I ask in these different jurisdictions is who in the room knows which type of jurisdiction they reside in very often people are confused very often in certain states which are very anti-f firearm which are very anti- police many people believe
▶ 2:08:48in so in those jurisdictions that they're automatically a duty ret treat and that's also something that's that's uh argued by prosecutors in in these uh particular States even if they have standard ground law this your your client or this defendant could have actually retreated could have gotten to a safer place the reason that this client she's being charged is because she she discharged her fire and because she shot this person and that's not why that's not that's not appropriate it's not proper uh it's not even correct and it continues to happen so what what looking at ATF um what actions
▶ 2:09:19do you think ATF under President Trump needs need to be prioritized what actions under the ATF uh I mean I really that's that's a loaded question I I think that we are we need to stop we need to stop first and foremost we need to stop attacking law abiding citizens with respect to their ownership of firearms we need to we need to recognize that people have a right to defend themselves we need to recognize that we are not in a position nobody's in a position to tell people how they can and can't defend themselves and in that respect we have to stop you know with this with
▶ 2:09:49this campaign to continuously collect firearms from law abiding citizens you need to do a bit more research into this and you need to make sure that we're not uh we're not Crossing Lines in those particular uh in those particular uh times Miss Muller question well I don't know about the ATF specifically but I'll I'll address the office of gun violence prevention I actually wanted to rename that to the office of violence prevention because we're all against violence my guns are inanimate objects and they do
▶ 2:10:19not they're not violent in and of them eles um and I think that you know Miro Connell who was the one who defended herself from the serial rapist and took his gun that is the exact opportunity for a gun to be used in for good in good hands and for bad for bad hands um so I would like to keep that office and and use it for firearms education and actual studying thank thank you unan um Mr
▶ 2:10:49swell unanimous sent request for a June 27 2024 NBC news story about a former Uvalde District Chief charged with child endangerment when he had a gun and 21 kids were killed because he didn't use it also a Texas Tribune July 8 2016 story Police use a robot to kill Dallas suspect unprecedented because five Dallas officers died while armed officers were not able to take down the
▶ 2:11:19shooter without objection thank you uh gentleman from Florida Mr MTZ for five minutes uh thank you Mr chairman Mr McMan I want to tell you a a quick story uh about my experience in my community so uh I come from a city called Parkland I graduated margorie stowman Douglas High School and in 2018 I was on the house floor at the time and my wife texted me and she said I just drove past margorie St M dougas and I've never seen that many police in my
▶ 2:11:49lifetime I wound up turning on the news and finding out that a troubled young man had walked into Marg dgas and killed 17 people a kid that the school board knew was a problem and didn't do anything about had given him chance after chance after chance police had been to his house the FBI had gotten hits on him didn't follow up this has resulted in lawsuits and settlements but he he he walked into that school and he killed 17 people he walked right
▶ 2:12:19past the security monitor a person on a golf cart with a walkie-talkie saw him okay didn't didn't radio he went floor to floor he started on the first floor he started killing people in the hallway he never entered a classroom he just put his gun up to the glass of every door uh and just fired through the little glass window that these classrooms had killing all sorts of kids and adults uh we had adults run into
▶ 2:12:50into the building to try to help kids they were killed um as a result as a result of this um and the guy they depended on the students depended on the SRO right did he respond he didn't he stayed outside the building like a coward he never went into the building when the police department showed up by the way everyone was dead by the time they got there but when the police department showed up do you know what the SRO
▶ 2:13:20on scene told those to the police departments don't go in he instructed cuz he's The Incident Commander on scene he instructed them not to go in two different police departments eventually Coral Springs the local police department decided to go in the sheriff of the Broward County Sheriff's Office okay was removed by Governor Dan santis over this the superintendent lost his job in Broward County o over this and so what did do Florida Republic
▶ 2:13:51repan Florida run by the House Republicans in the house in the Senate Republican Governor now a US senator whole Republican cabinet the gunshine state what did they do well they passed the Margery St and doua school safety act and you know what that did I did a bunch of things it raised the age to buy a gun to 21 it in not possession you parents could still buy their kids gun but it raised the age to buy a gun to 21 it instituted 3-day waiting periods red flag
▶ 2:14:21flag laws it also by the way created the guardian program which allowed non-classroom teachers to go through training um and as a result there would be additional guns on school campus folks that went through training with the sheriff's office they made it a local option so that counties could decide if they wanted to do that by the way almost every single County opted into the program okay and the program's been a success it's actually been a success it was a comprehensive bill it
▶ 2:14:51did all things it looked at the problem and said what is the issue we can't just wait for the police departments to get there cuz sometimes by the time they get there everyone's dead well we can't just depend on the SRO because sometimes these guys don't do the right thing we also got to recognize that there are a lot of troubled people out there with mental health we put hundreds of millions of dollars into mental health but we also wanted to make sure that young people if they wanted to go hunting with their father or their parents they could do that right the dad could take them and the mom could take them could buy their gun but we didn't want an 18-year-old walking
▶ 2:15:21into a gun store like this kid did and come out with an AR-15 unlimited ammunition body armor this guy as the kids were fleeing out the building tried to pick children off as they were running out of the building you know why he didn't succeed the hurricane glass we got lucky hurricane glass which was put in the building to stop hurricanes actually stopped the trajectory of the bullets took uh took a lot of the speed out of the bullets way so they just fell on the ground didn't kill anyone I would tell you that Florida is one of the most gun friendly
▶ 2:15:51states in America has been for the longest time Marian Hammer the head of the NRA was the main lobbyist there right stay in your ground born and bred in Florida okay but I give my Republican colleagues credit they saw what was happening they saw an epidemic and they don't want to take people's guns away they're Second Amendment right Advocates through and through but they did the right thing CU there is a balance this idea that there is no balance I reject and Florida
▶ 2:16:21proved that absolutely wrong thank you Mr chairman I yield back gentlemen yields I now yield myself for five minutes um so first thing I want to cover and um I appreciate Mr Jackson I appreciate you being here in your today so um as I listen to your testimony talking about uh post the uh all-time highs I guess of of murder that took place during
▶ 2:16:52the covid-19 era I I began thinking I wonder what other in independent variables went in that has was a retrograde analysis done in that in that um in that study if there's been a study done at all um and were any of those other uh independent isolated and I would suggest to you that that actually in your testimony and other people's testimonies today we know that there was a spike it happened during Co 19 what caused the
▶ 2:17:22spike some people say it was covid-19 that caused the spike the people are frustrated people sick people out people isolated um all of that took place um but we also that that once that went away I mean I don't know that you can attribute it all necessarily to the the legislation that that I think my colleagues have um you actually changed the society you began trying to get back to to normal
▶ 2:17:52and um and that's why you see this Spike you see this certain level it's kind of moving like that on the on the graph line that was there then you have the spike and then it starts winding its way back down you don't know what the the the actually we know what the we don't know what the dependent variables are or the independent variables are as we look at that as a study if we're going to look at it as a study and that's why it's so important in my mind that you really actually kind of isolate those variables and you do the r you do the regressive analysis to see what's there so that's
▶ 2:18:23that's just where I am and to start with and so um I want to go now to miss meller miss Muller what are some of the potential negative consequences of a jurisdiction that fails to Grant an individual's application for concealed permit are you referring to shall issue and May issue um yes I am I was going to get that from Mr mcder but I'm I'm here with you so you go ahead well I think that anytime you throw a barrier
▶ 2:18:53up uh between let's say a woman who's facing domestic violence and anytime you throw a barrier to her being able to defend herself is is going to be detrimental we hear it time after time I know there was a woman in New Jersey that was waiting for her concealed carry permit she was stabbed I believe leave in her driveway um the criminals don't wait and if you need to defend yourself now then you're only creating a barrier for people able to be safe and Miss Muller
▶ 2:19:24uh you you were a law enforcement officer for 22 years in in Tulsa right yes sir and so you encountered stressful situations law enforcement officer right yes sir and did you ever did you ever encounter um somebody who is a violent criminal yes sir and and what is the stress level when you encounter somebody that that is violence on a scale 1 to 10
▶ 2:19:54yeah I'm going to go 8 to 10 yeah yeah and you know I I we really need to keep that in mind as we as we talk about these things too and so Mr mcder I want to I want to talk to you what's the difference between those May issue and shall issue jurisdictions with respect to uh the Concealed Carry Permits well obviously uh that was addressed in Bruin just the significance of May issue in the discretion uh that that extends to the government to local uh police sometimes like in Illinois
▶ 2:20:25it's ISP that makes a determination uh and the fact that it shouldn't it's it's often abused and it and it certainly uh violates our Second Amendment um there are states such as Illinois that are considered shell issue States and because of that and because of the ruling there's in my opinion there's a misconception with respect to the fact that Bruin doesn't actually apply to Illinois Illinois is a state which is shell issue uh however it has when you look at the concealed carry act it has approximately 20 plus different ways in which they can go ahead and deny Firearms
▶ 2:20:55to people it's very discretionary you can't get in touch with anybody when you call to to ask you're never given a name there's never a direct line there's not an office that you could speak to somebody it's basically an oz behind the curtain type of situation somebody's deciding who gets the Firearms who doesn't I know somebody that that was uh that was arrested for having a FOID revoked he his FOID was revoked firearm owner's identification card which is what's required in Illinois for example um his FOID was revoked because he was charged with a felony the prosecutor uh later reduced it down to a misdemeanor because the the evidence didn't support the felony
▶ 2:21:25he took a plea for supervision on a misdemeanor which he would have never had his Foy lost as a result of he later because he didn't know that it was that it was permanently revoked was arrested and charged with with uh having a revoked FOID which is mandatory jail time or prison time in the state of Illinois so it's being abused uh consistently these these May issue uh jurisdictions uh shouldn't exist and that's what bruan stands for thank you uh I thank all of the witnesses and everyone who's attended this this hearing this concludes the today's hearing
▶ 2:21:56without objection all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses or addition materials for the record without objection the hearing
▶ 2:26:49e e