▶ 0:07:28e e
▶ 0:08:22investigations and oversight will come to order without objection the chair is authorized to declare rist and subcommittee at any time I'd like to now recognize myself for 5 minutes for remarks and first of all I'd like to thank you all my guests for coming here today on my first uh chair it's exciting to have here uh some delightful experts in our in our oversight and it's also uh an honor to have my ranking member syes here with me today uh I want to lay out our objectives
▶ 0:08:53and how we're going to run our committees from here on out uh in reference to uh former chair in a subcommittee I was a part of uh we will start on time we'll stay on time we will not use acronyms to the best of our abilities because most people don't understand acronyms even the people that use them I found uh in the
▶ 0:09:24military I even practiced this too so this is great all right our country is in a unique position to collect Talent from all over the world I think this is one of our greatest strengths for the last several decades it's made us this amazing hodg podge of talent and it's really accelerated our country in Technologies and our ability to lead the rest of the world to
▶ 0:09:54collect ideas from all over the world and to accelerate that process through our educational system it has also made us a Target when you look at the people who are immigrating here to to education we have about a million students here every year uh a large portion of them are from countries that are our peers and our Rivals and that take that technology back to their countries and we have to be careful of that or we'll lose our position in case you haven't been keeping up with our educational system it's ranked I think 40th in the world right now
▶ 0:10:24it's not a good position to be even when you're in in the lead you can't just steal Talent and stay in front of everybody else and when you're giving your information uh to other countries willingly and I think there's something to be gained from collaboration I think that's a good thing but you have to be careful you have to be smart if you're running a business or a country I think when we have the unique and changing ways especially in Advanced Technologies AI Quantum and everything else that we're teaching our children in
▶ 0:10:54uh in schools now we have to be very very uh quick to put rails on that to make sure that we stay in the Leading Edge of Technologies and that we continue to be competitive and uh actually lead the rest of the world one of the things I realized that the CCP has done is they refer to our fruits as their honey they literally say they're coming up and and and suckling at that nectar if you will uh absorbing that pretty much at at Cost
▶ 0:11:25uh they don't have to invest in it they just get to take it back to their country and benefit from it that doesn't necessarily benefit the United States though when you have foreign companies and and professors and and other people coming here to pick the flowers in foreign lands to make honey in China that doesn't well B well for us and we need to make sure that this is not only a quote But realize that this is the Mantra of the CCP right now I think we need to continue to slow
▶ 0:11:55the leaks make sure we protect our Technologies and and provide opportunities for our homegrown students who will remain in America and be the future of our Technologies when we talk about developing our oversight for this um for these Technologies starting with what is firmly within our control we should review federal regulations that are seen both as too burdensome and also those that are too lenient work with researchers and research institutions
▶ 0:12:25to implement new methods to ensure accountability is and improved as we go forward and we also need to ensure that Grant Awards have contractual mechanisms to certify that background checks on staff are done and one thing that maybe you don't realize when I was a associate professor at Georgia Tech and Morehouse we had foreign instructors we had foreign students matter of fact a large portion of them there's a financial advantage to that but I was also investig used as an investigator
▶ 0:12:55or or to help investigate from the FBI a foreign National instructor who was then arrested because they were stealing Secrets this is a real thing and this and that was a couple decades ago it hasn't gotten better it's gotten worse and we need to be careful our nation's Premier Research institutes have been an all you can eat buffet for other countries right now and especially our adversaries we cannot let this metaphorical Buffet continue or we risk seing our dominance
▶ 0:13:26in Innovation and scientific research I look forward to the witness's ter testimony to today informing our committee on the steps we can take to reverse these current vulnerabilities and Enlighten us on what we can do better with that I yield to the ranking member thank you chair McCormick and congratulations on your chairmanship of this subcommittee your uh practice rounds served you well um I also look forward to working with you and the entire uh
▶ 0:13:56subcommittee for ensuring that we have robust and productive meetings in order to help serve the science Community uh for our country uh before I start my remarks I do uh want to take the time to express my condolences for the loss of one of the members of our fool committee Sylvester Turner who passed away last night he represented the state of Texas and was formerly the mayor of Houston uh and my husband and I have known him for some time and
▶ 0:14:27uh I can't even begin to express the sadness that we feel not only for the City of Houston for his family uh but for this country who has lost a great man uh a g great Patriot and a great American uh so if you have a moment to send up a prayer or a thoughts of words of comfort for him and his family and his community on behalf of the Democrats on this committee and and hopefully I speak for the full committee and expressing my condolences for years this committee has led the way in promoting sensible and responsible research
▶ 0:14:57security policy America did not become the world leader in science because we cowed from our adversaries we became the world leader because we created a welcoming research environment that set the standard of how Global Science is conducted and while we are proud of these values we are also aware that adversarial governments including the People's Republic of China often take advantage of our system and exploit its openness but our response should not be to let our opponents fundamentally change our American Scientific culture and in turn make it
▶ 0:15:27difficult for our research to address our most pressing National challenges as a proud representative of Ohio's 13th congressional district in Northeast Ohio I know it's at stake Ohio's 13th is home to a tech Hub that received $51 million in chips and science investment to leverage Akon's National leadership in polymer science and sustainable polymers from sustainable tires to Cutting Edge polymers the next generation of rubber and plastic products will happen in my district this opportunity was not however created
▶ 0:15:58in a vacuum it was made possible by fundamental researchers around the world working together on chemistry and Engineering researchers at the University of akran worked on these fundamental chemistry problems within a Global Science community and we have benefited from International Partnerships and we welcome the best Minds from around the world to allow our nation and our expertise to grow of course we recognize that there are valid research security concerns and this committee has worked in a bipartisan way to address these issues including through the landmarks chips and
▶ 0:16:28science that was passed in a bipartisan way and we will continue to fight to maintain the chips in the science act I know we heard some contrary conversation yesterday at the address from the president among its many actions chips and science authorized the National Science Foundation to research to maintain a research security office that works closely with law enforcement intelligence communities to address many of these concerns from a federal agency perspective this office in conjunction with efforts from other SST
▶ 0:16:58agents genes in the White House Office of Science and Technology policy has created research security training modules created Frameworks to assess Grant proposals for National Security risks and issued Common Sense disclosure forms for use across Grant making agencies since the be committee began looking at this issue in 2018 universities has also stepped up to the plate examining their own research Enterprise and identifying ways to make it more secure MIT for example compiled a report in 2022
▶ 0:17:28that investigates how our Premier Research institutions can promote research security while preserving open scientific research open intellectual exchange and the free flow of ideas and people I look forward to hearing about Dr zuber's exper experience co-chairing the national Academy's Roundtable where acmy industry law enforcement and the intelligence Community worked to come to a common understanding of research security threats and best practices it is my hope that this committee continues to be a productive place to hold these very important conversations
▶ 0:17:59particularly as we are witnessing attacks to the very core of our federal research Enterprise just as we must be cleare eyed about the threat posed by adversaries I hope my colleagues on both sides of the aisle don't shy away from speaking out when their own government weakens the United States standing on the international stage if we do not maintain American leadership in science and technology we will lose what is worth protecting in the first place and if we don't lead someone
▶ 0:18:29else will follow I would prefer the United States leads thank you very much Mr chair thank you to the committee members to the staff for uh what I know will be a productive Congress thank you to our Witnesses for being here and Mr chair I yield back thank you rank you member syes it was a pleasure and with that I recognize chair Babin and thank you for joining us today this morning sir for your opening remarks thank you Mr chairman I really appreciate it and the first thing I want to say is
▶ 0:19:00me man I'm sorry I want to thank ranking Sykes uh for that news very sad I want to express my condolences at the loss of former mayor and our fellow member of this committee uh of Sylvester Turner I'm I'm absolutely shocked I knew he'd been having some health problems uh but I did not know that uh we were going to lose him at this this early date like this
▶ 0:19:31just want to say how sorry I am about it I've worked with him for several years now and uh really appreciated his Service as mayor of Houston uh he was he was a go-to guy and uh he was nice he was always a gentleman uh I just want to say how much I uh appreciated his service sorry for his family and U just shocked that we've lost him um and uh anyway thank you for telling us about that I want to thank our witnesses
▶ 0:20:01as well for for being here and joining us discuss a very serious relevant topic the security threats to our federal research Enterprise America's leadership in science technology was built on the foundation of federal investment in basic research these Investments have enhanced our national security strengthened our economy and improved the lives of our citizens our unique research ecosystem which combines Federal academic and private and D efforts drives America's advancement in
▶ 0:20:32science and technology however for this system to work we need a degree of open science that facilitates collaboration and transparency the challenge is ensuring this openness does not compromise our research security although the United States has greatly profited from International scientific collaboration and the contributions of foreign born scientists other countries both friend and foe are also benefiting from us Investments and while
▶ 0:21:02our goal is to ensure that all federally funded scientists adhere to the US Principles of Scientific fairness and integrity regardless of race or citizenship status it is important to recognize that not all nations share these values as this committee is well aware of the Chinese Communist party or CCP is determined to surpass the us as the global leader in science and technology by 2050 and by any means necessary including
▶ 0:21:32Espionage theft or forced acquisition and I think history is all has borne that out that they're willing to do whatever it takes the theft of our basic research poses a significant risk to our Global competitiveness handing our Cutting Edge Innovations to adversaries and undermining both our economy and our ability to lead and Discovery this is no Idol threat and it creates a serious strategic challenge the CCP has been explicit about its efforts to steal
▶ 0:22:02our research uh results to further its technological progress a 2023 survey by the center for strategic International Studies found 224 reported instances of Chinese Espionage directed at the United States and more than 1,200 lawsuits were filed by us companies against Chinese entities for intellectual property theft since 2000 in fact even the uh Chinese Consulate was closed in Houston
▶ 0:22:32Texas uh where where my district is from Houston over to Louisiana it was closed back during the first Trump Administration uh for some of these very reasons for the instances of Espionage where the actor and intent were known 49% of incidents directly involv Chinese military or government employees 46% involved cyber Espionage 29% sought to acquire military technology and 54% targeted commercial
▶ 0:23:02Technologies this committee has passed multiple bills to protect American Research some of this legislation directed The Office of Science and Technology policy to coordinate efforts and standardized requirements across all federal science agencies to provide a strong framework for research security however previous administration failed to execute this framework within the directed timeline missing deadlines by over a year in some cases and provided
▶ 0:23:32little to no coordination and no Community engagement the government needs clear and uniform guidance for our agencies and researchers and I'm confident that this second Trump Administration will continue the good work of its previous term in reopen communication channels effective communication between law enforcement agencies and universities is Paramount to securing our research enterpr R universities need to know when researchers are targeted
▶ 0:24:03by nefarious actors and law enforcement should be aware of the participants and conflicts of interest within our academic research ecosystem this collaboration should also extend to our technology transfer systems startups are an important part of our S&T Enterprise and present a vulnerability that our Global competitors are exploiting while universities cont trct licenses derived from oncampus research they lack transparency
▶ 0:24:33about the startups investors for instance a foreign entity could access sensitive research through early investment in a startup before the technology license is even granted thereby avoiding a review by the federal committee on foreign investment in the United States or cfus clearly this is a complex task that requires thoughtful consideration but I believe that we are up to this challenge I look forward to hearing from our Witnesses today
▶ 0:25:03and uh how we can assess and monitor these threats to our scientific research Enterprise and Mr chairman I'd like to back thank you Mr chair and right now I'd like to recognize representative lofin for opening statement uh thank you chairman McCormick and ranking member Sykes I uh really do hope that research security will remain a bipartisan and productive a topic for this uh committee we have an impressive Legacy of legislation and
▶ 0:25:33oversight on research security for years on both sides of the aisle we have maintained a deep understanding of and respect for which the chairman has just mentioned uh the spirit of openness that animates fundamental research Republicans and Democrats alike have taken threats to research security seriously while understanding that in order to be the world leader in science and discovery we must welcome International collaboration while guarding against Espionage one
▶ 0:26:04year ago we sat in this hearing room and discussed the progress that had been made uh on research security honestly it's difficult to have that same conversation today without acknowledging how different our scientific Enterprise looks the past six weeks I've seen a widespread attack on federal science science agencies froze their awards at the order of uh president Trump and Elon Musk and recipients of these prestigious grants were worried not only
▶ 0:26:34about continuing their work but honestly about paying their bills they now only have certainty for as long as the temporary restraining orders last scientists across the federal government were fired in sweeping terminations of probationary employees and it's worth noting that you know probationary employees are people who received a merit-based promotion and were in a probationary status for the the promotion so we have singled out
▶ 0:27:04the most meritorious scientists for termination and the administration is demanding that more be fired this will impede agy's ability to disperse congressionally authorized grant money among other crucial functions the rug has really been pulled out from under our federal scientific Enterprise which had been the Envy of the world now it will be naive to think that this won't affect our ability to attract and retain Talent both American and foreign born this committee
▶ 0:27:34has a lot to be proud of when it comes to Common Sense research legislation chips and science bolstered our research security um uh resources our agency's resources it catalyzed cross-governmental harmonization of research security policies uh more needs to be done unfortunately even the progress uh that has been made will be undercut due to recent decisions chips and science established a research security
▶ 0:28:04office within NSF this office was seriously impacted by the uh probationary firings and the resignations amidst the hostile environment Elon Musk and Doge has created uh chips and science also mandated that NSF run the secure Center to support and Empower research institutions to mitigate foreign interference that Center Lacks permanent director and NSF can't hire one while the hiring PR is in place now while prary
▶ 0:28:35employees are being hired back this week because of the Court decisions there's no guarantee that the agency will get through the coming firings without again compromising the research security office NSF is a pretty efficient agency only about 5% of its budget is spent on agency operations and awards management by firing NSF employees and cing others to resign this Administration harms our ability to distribute grant money to meritorious
▶ 0:29:05cuttingedge research and its kneecapping our research security capabilities we might consider the title of this hearing the most pressing threat to us funded research is coming from inside the house for years now when we sat for these hearings Democrats and Republicans celebrated the fact that the United States was the chosen home of world class last Talent we took pride in the fact that nearly 80% of foreign born stem PhD recipients chose
▶ 0:29:35to remain in the United States if the destabilization of our research ecosystem continues we will tarnish our reputation and we will invite brain drain I firmly support the bipartisan work that the science committee has done to bolster research security I hope we can all stand up for that work and insist that existing laws are enforced and where there are remaining remaining vulnerabilities I hope we can work together the way we have for years to find Common Sense solutions that respect the openness of
▶ 0:30:05science first articulated at the presidential level by Ronald Reagan in 1985 I fear that unless Republicans and Democrats alike stand against the destruction of our scientific Enterprise we will seed our leadership to China in ways that no research security policies can prevent with that Mr chairman I yield back thank you ranking member Len I appreciate your remarks today uh with that Mr John Sergeant who is
▶ 0:30:35not new to the halls of Congress has only recently retired from congressional research service where he provided members of Congress and their staffs with research briefings and expert Insight on the Litany of Science and Technology issues and policies in addition to being long-term expert on our Niche issues here in SST Mr Sergeant earned a degree in systems engineering from University of Virginia with that I yield for your
▶ 0:31:08comments thank you chairman McCormick ranking member Sykes and distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the this issue which is of vital importance to US national and economic security let's get right down to it China is not our friend I wish they were but they're not not China is an ascendent economic and military power that seeks Global Tech leadership in emerging enabling and critical Technologies China has also
▶ 0:31:38become an aspiring hegemonistic power China first seeks Regional domination in East Asia and from their world dominance economically and militarily the path to their aspirations depends on technological preeminence to realize this future China is doing three things in particular they are building a worldclass military and drawing up battle plans against the United States Taiwan and their Regional neighbors they've adopted a comprehensive whole of nation strategy to acquire foreign technology and
▶ 0:32:08are making massive Investments to develop new technologies indigenously and they have adopted a civil military Fusion strategy to deploy this technology in both their commercial Industries and their military industrial base more than ever the future of National Economic and military power will be built on technological lead leadership speaking broadly we have it and they don't that makes American companies Laboratories and universities China's primary targets for the acquisition of Leading Edge
▶ 0:32:38technology and China uses a wide range of tool excuse me tools to get it illegal and legal among them Espionage death of us intellectual property Force technology transfers from us companies Talent recruitment programs and sending students to study stem in the United States some some acting as spies the Soviet sought military superiority the Japanese economic superiority China seeks both China is not only a potential military adversary
▶ 0:33:08like the Soviet Union during the Cold War it's an economic Juggernaut second in GDP only to the United States and larger than Japan Germany and the United Kingdom combined and unlike our relationship with the Soviets we are actively engaged in trade with China further complicating the relationship and our ability to limit their access to us technology we have a myriad of academic relationships with China as well many on The Cutting Edge of research and development and we are educating hundreds of thousands of the best and brightest Minds from China
▶ 0:33:39at American universities many in our top graduate science and engineering programs much has been done over the past eight years to better protect us universities and their research from the various actors and yet here we are again still trying to Tamp down the seemingly ceaseless efforts of China and other adversaries to acquire us scientific knowledge too often government efforts have met resistance from the academic Community which in large measure would prefer to go about its business with no restrictions
▶ 0:34:09I believe this attitude is detrimental to US National Security it should be a core patriotic duty of every us University to support protect and defend the country that provides them with a home physical security civil liberties and protection of their IP as well as billions of dollars in research and development funding and billions more for the education of their students America needs this academic Community as a full partner in the protection of our country and its investments in academic research
▶ 0:34:39we need to see change in the way researchers understand their obligations to the country they need to bring an attitude toward making this work for America not just to check the block exercise to be met with minimal compliance we need the academic Community to work with the federal government to further develop and strengthen research security protocols and we need to more fulsomely Implement what is already in place similarly we need to better protect private research for this we need us industry to step up as well especially given the growing magnitude of the private sector's
▶ 0:35:09investment in R&D and his work on the bleeding edge of dual use Technologies in addition we should consider whether new regimes are needed altogether perhaps most importantly with respect to research funding the US government should start with the rebuttable presumption that Science and Technology cooperation with China is not in the National interest of the United States we should be asking first whether any proposed research with China is absolutely indispensable to US National Security the US economy or us Public Health in the environment
▶ 0:35:40second whether China is the only partner in the world with whom we can do such proposed research and third whether the proposed research advances US National Security economic or public health interests more than it does China's and every decision we make needs to be informed by the answer to whether our men and women in uniform will face these USF funded Technologies on the battlefield in the immortal words of Thomas Jefferson Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty thank you Mr chairman and thank you for
▶ 0:36:10your testimony Mr Jeffree sta is the founder and president at the center for research security a not for-profit organization dedicated to the protection of research and Innovation from harmful foreign influence and interference Mr stop previously spent over 18 years in the US government as a China analyst and is recognized as an expert in technology issues please give your opening statement subcommittee chairman McCormick
▶ 0:36:40ranking member syes distinguished committee members thank you for the opportunity to testify today on this critically important topic over the last 15 years I focused on China's research ecosystem and its state-driven technology transfer apparatus while in government I worked closely with most federal agencies that fund scientific research as well as law enforcement and intelligence components that that support exposed me to deficiencies and vulnerabilities in both Academia and government which I describe in detail in my written testimony for several years starting
▶ 0:37:11in 2019 a few colleagues and I exerted considerable effort compiling analyses briefing government leadership and proposing programmatic changes to address knowledge gaps and structural impediments to safeguarding Innovation security unfortunately most of those efforts fell on deaf ears my frustrations with continued inaction by agencies charged with protecting Federal research Investments and our national and economic security drove me to leave Federal service in 2021 after 18 years it is past time we have candid and
▶ 0:37:41perhaps uncomfortable conversations on how China's largely unfettered access to our research ecosystem undermines our national and economic security and that China exploits and corrupts our research often through the Willing participation of us institutions and because universities are primarily run like businesses in that bringing in revenue is their primary objective the financial incentives of universities often run counter to US national and economic security interests Academia continues to demonstrate a systemic disregard for National Security
▶ 0:38:11considerations and an indifference to or a lack of awareness of ethical risks when collaborating with China these issues persist in part because of a lack of regulatory oversight regarding fundamental research which worked fine through the Cold War but now fails to address geostrategic realities even where there are rules in place in terms of Federal grant contract conditions the evidence suggests continued and widespread non-compliance Academia currently only NASA and Department of Defense have certain research funding restrictions
▶ 0:38:41concerning collaborations with China no other activities or sources of funding are prescribed researchers and institutions are free to partner collaborate establish Cooperative programs Etc with any PC enity of their choosing Academia has claimed that they Now understand the risks much better and have a good handle on security concerns empirical studies I've produced and data I compiled in my written testimony prove otherwise such as low estimates of over 27,000 articles published in just the past 5 years involving collaborations
▶ 0:39:11between us institutions and Pla entities PRC defense uh weapons design and production facilities state-owned defense Enterprises and key defense research universities additionally neither Academia nor the US government has taken any observable policy measures to mitigate pierc practices that undermine research Integrity issues in addition to academia's disclosure failures to the Department of Education on foreign sources of funding as required by law non-disclosures on federal grants of current and pending
▶ 0:39:42support often coming from China persist many of those grants could have gone to other universities that didn't have this PRC support for the universities acting in good faith losing out on these grants can result in smaller budgets and fewer resources to hire PhD students attract top talent Etc which in then turn in turn makes them less competitive on future Grant proposals this also translates to fewer opportunities for our children in the US and an erosion of stem Talent pipelines compounding these issues are structural
▶ 0:40:12problems in the government to identify and mitigate threats from China and monitor enforce academia's non-compliance these include each agency has its own research security and due diligence process a lack of inter agency dating data sharing results in duplicative Risk assessments when done at all and inconsistent standards for assessing risks across federal agencies the US government also has few resources or processes in place to monitor for National Security risks post awward of a grant or contract
▶ 0:40:43and further handicapping these efforts is a dir of subject matter expertise within both the intelligence and law enforcement communities a key recommendation in my testimony is to consolidate Government research security functions into a centralized organization that closes persistent knowledge Regulatory and policy gaps creates efficiencies and cost savings builds subject matter expertise through training analysts and investigators bolsters compliance monitoring and enforcement serves as a resource to assist universities
▶ 0:41:13in conducting risk assessments disrupts China's unfettered access to ferally funded research and imposes real costs to China when it violates values of integrity and reciprocity thank you and I look forward to your questions thank you for your testimony and now Dr Maria Zuber is a professor of geophysics and presidential advisor for Science and Technology policy at Massachusetts Institute of Technology and from here on we can actually use Mi
▶ 0:41:43as an acronym since I've just explained it most people have never heard of it she is a leading University voice on research security and co-chaired the national Academy's national science technology and security Roundtable we welcome your remarks great chairman McCormack ranking member Sykes and members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me to testify today striking the right balance on how the US research Enterprise should interact with China is critical to US National Security
▶ 0:42:14and competitiveness getting that balance right is not easy or obvious we know that China is an economic geopolitical and Military rival and that China has sought to advance through illicit means even now when China has considerable strengths of its own it tries to take undue advantage of us research efforts yet cutting all ties to China would likely hobble the US competitiveness as much as it would harm China
▶ 0:42:44finding the right balance starts with clearly assessing current practices at us universities while many universities were slow to appreciate the threat posed by China that has changed from what I have seen as co-chair of the congressionally mandated National Academy's round table on science technology and security universities are now largely aware of the legitimate concerns about China and they have put in place new procedures
▶ 0:43:14still a work in progress and many coordinate regularly with law enforcement MIT has been a leader in responding to the changing nature of China MIT was the first un University to cut ties with Huawei more than six years ago we created a special review process for research collaborations with China in 2019 and issued a public report laying out our approach to China in 2022 at MIT any proposed collaboration with China is reviewed
▶ 0:43:44for its potential impact on National Security Economic Security and human rights we do not believe though that research collaborations should be cut off entirely proper structured engagement can be beneficial to us researchers collaboration is also a way to stay a breast of developments in China which is now a leader in key Fields there are also still some areas like climate science food safety and certain areas
▶ 0:44:14of Health where there is much to gain from joint work and little risk this is all publishable basic research research funding from China should of course be disclosed Congress has usefully clarified and tightened disclosure requirements in recent years and National Security Presidential memorandum 33 with input from both the Trump and the Biden administrations and from me by the way provides an effective framework for disclosing
▶ 0:44:44foreign collaborations perhaps above all else it has been a critical competitive advantage to the US that we are able to attract the top scientific Talent from around the world including from China China the vast majority of Chinese PhD students more than 80% remain in the US after getting their degrees and more likely would if our policies were more supportive students pose a relatively low security risk since they work in an environment where research
▶ 0:45:14is published Visa applicants should be more rigorously vetted but I am not aware of evidence that students are extensively involved in illicit activities if such uh information exists I'd love to see it in my written testimony I go into some detail on existing policies to protect us technology where they could be shored up and where they should be left alone but I'd like to close here with a broader Point protective policies are needed
▶ 0:45:44but they're not enough we have to strengthen our own research Enterprise one need look no farther than the recent Announcement by the China Chinese AI firm deep seek to know that restrictions may buy us some time but they will not prevent Chinese technological advancement we must win this race by running faster not just by trying to trip up the competition we must continue to ensure that the US is a magnet for the world's top talent by investing in US science and technology
▶ 0:46:14and by offering reliable funding for competitively awarded research projects that means taking steps like funding the National Science Foundation as envisioned in the chips and science act that this committee help draft on a bipartisan basis instead we seem to be fighting about how much to slash its budget and Personnel including Personnel hired to bolster research security we shouldn't be naive about China but that includes not denying its strengths we're not going to compete
▶ 0:46:45successfully just by building a moat around the us we'd better be sure that everything we need from others especially Talent can get across that moat and we better be sure that nothing inside our moat is deteriorating thank you and I look forward to answering your questions thank you to my Witnesses for your opening remarks and now I will recognize representative herrian from North Carolina Welcome to our committee and I look forward to your questions thanks Mr chairman and thank you to all of our Witnesses
▶ 0:47:15for your testimony today I wanted to talk about Chinese Espionage in science and Academia from the CIS report and give you a couple examples here that will frame my question in January of 2020 a Harvard University professor in two Chinese Nationals yangang King Yi and Z xang xen were indicted for attempted theft of biological research Dr Liber was a participant in the Thousand talents plan while actively accepting National Institutes of Health
▶ 0:47:45and Department of Defense funding ye a lieutenant of the pla compiled information on US military projects for the CCP Zen committed the theft of 21 one biological research vials to promote Chinese projects in July of 2020 sa tongyang a University of Arkansas Professor was indicted for wire fraud for his acceptance of us Contracting funds related to NASA and the Air Force while being simultaneously
▶ 0:48:16employed by Chinese entities in August of 2020 Zen dongqing a professor at Texas A&M was charged with wire fraud for concealing his AFF AFF ilation with Chinese universities and Enterprises while accepting a NASA Grant his position allowed him access to sensitive NASA projects He was also a participant of the Thousand talents plan I have only five minutes so I cannot read the other countless examples of
▶ 0:48:46CCP infiltration into our national research apparatus but my team compiled 58 different instances of various forms of research Espionage that has occurred just in the last six years so after reading this report and after listening to your testimony today it is incredibly troubling and I simply want to know one thing why do we still
▶ 0:49:16have any Chinese Nationals inside of our institutions especially within institutions that participate in research that is critical to our national interests and our national security Mr Sergeant I have no idea I have no idea I don't think it makes any sense at all I think we need to be far more secure in who we allow into this country and who we allow to conduct research especially on
▶ 0:49:46US taxpayer funded dollars and I think it's very dangerous for us not to carefully vet all the people that are coming to the United States to study to make sure that they in fact are not linked to pla institutions or universities and one thing we know for sure is that not only is China after our technology they are constantly adapting and adopting new strategies to acquire it so we we can't think we have now after four years of
▶ 0:50:16efforts reached the Pinnacle of security and put everything in place we need to do because the Chinese are going to adapt to it and they're going to find ways around it so we need to as I say you know Eternal vigilance is is the price of Liberty and we've got to continue to remain vigilent and again going back to the answer to your question I don't think they should be thank you Mr sta um obviously I think this is a very complex issue um
▶ 0:50:47I think that definitely and I agree with uh Mr sergeant that at least within critical technology Fields within stem Fields a far more RoR ous process and I talk about this in my testimony that needs to be done that requires the kind of vetting vetting and due diligence and assessments that have um there may be other areas like from my perspective any of the humanities and social sciences and other things I that's not a concern to me the Chinese should come here and learn how our de
▶ 0:51:17Democratic governance systems work our legal structures things like that so I think a complete and total ban doesn't necess isn't necessarily meet the objectives that you're seeking um but I also want to point out something that that I think is not really well understood and that is the the the examples that you're describing relate primarily to these constructs of economic Espionage Espionage and intellectual property theft and most of the problems and the threats that were occur that's occurring on campus are none of those
▶ 0:51:47things they're not illicit and the scale and scope of the other ways in which they're acquiring technology and knowhow is often not Espionage and that is completely under represented un not understood in the scale and the scope and we need to be more vent about that I have very limited time so Dr Zuber I don't know that we're going to get to you but I think we've got to keep in mind here we've got access and we have placement with all of these individuals and the CCP will
▶ 0:52:17exert leverage that is a problem for our country we need to deal with this and we need to deal with it swiftly in our research institutions Mr chairman I yeld back gentleman's time has expired with that I recognize ranking member Sykes for her questions thank you uh Dr Zuber I am extremely concerned that the weakening of our scientific Enterprise will lead to self-inflicted research security catastrophes on Friday CNN reported that the naval criminal investigative service has determined that China and Russia
▶ 0:52:47are attempting to recruit federal employees who have been laid off scientists are specifically being targeted by Chinese institutions as seen an advertis ments to recruit researchers in um in institutes in China I ask unanimous consent to enter the article and the advertisement into the record no objections thank you Mr chair and as the Trump Administration cast off scientists and destabilize research in the name of efficiency our adversaries celebrate
▶ 0:53:17and look to fill that vacuum Dr Zuber can you please describe the relationship between funding our research Enterprise and bolstering research security okay um thank you for that question um so uh so uh absolutely I mean the the fundamental basis of my testimony was that we absolutely need compliance we absolutely need uh to keep critical and sensitive research secure agree with that but we're not going to
▶ 0:53:48get there um if we don't invest okay so last week also in the the first round of funding cuts the NSF secure Center which was uh uh noted um in the member statements uh had uh five out of their nine employees uh laid off in the probation area they may get one back okay so in a very area that we all consider high priority uh they're laying off people so I mean count me at the front of the line uh
▶ 0:54:18that uh that the um Federal bureaucracy could be more efficient and ought to be more efficient but it ought to be done thoughtfully and strategically and we ought to be thinking about what functions the federal government really ought to be executing and what functions should be done uh by others and then we ought to identify the uh the jobs and the employee talent that is needed to fill those roles thank you Dr Zuber and and thank you for highlighting that in your testimony
▶ 0:54:48and I and I do want to ask you all a question and if you can answer it in maybe 15 words or less yesterday during uh the joint address to Congress president Trump said quote you should get rid of the chips act your response to that in 15 words or less I would be happy to start um so I covered chips act for the Congressional research service I know you're getting a little bit beyond your 15 words we don't have
▶ 0:55:18the time I think we need to be very judicious in what we choose to accept and reject in the chips act thank you thank you Mr staf u i i I think it needs to be continued and it's really important for our Innovation and security thank you Dr Zuber uh it needs to be continued and there's 13 billion dollar of it of R&D investment and we have to train a new generation of chipmakers in this country thank you very much we have heard rumors that Doge has arrived at the National Science Foundation
▶ 0:55:48this is extremely worrying under the guise of making government more efficient I think we all have the idea to make government efficient and to Cur waste but as we've identified some of this has been more of a reckon ball rather than a scalpel uh when it comes to research security that means that any information shared between Federal science agencies and universities could be right for by hacking of our by our adversaries including China in Russia uh would you have concerns if the information at MIT Dr zubra has transmitted
▶ 0:56:18to NSF or transferred to non-secured data servers and what is the risk of research security related information being accessed by unvetted do representatives and potentially foreign adversaries okay well I what I will tell you is that uh at MIT we don't do any classified research on campus when um when technology gets to the point where it gets complex and concerning for either economic or uh National Security we send it to uh to a classified uh uh area so
▶ 0:56:49um so nothing on campus is uh um uh classified however it is intellect ual property and if and if it were to get out it would um uh compromise the IP of the creators and um and it could um potentially uh give somebody a maybe a six Monon to a year Head Start um on something but ultimately every do everything we do on campus is uh is unclassified so it's going to get out there eventually
▶ 0:57:19and Mr sergeant if you can do it in in 10 seconds not my rule but the Committees uh do you have any concern about keeping the state private of course I do thank you Mr chair I yield back thank you for cooperating with me and uh obviously five minutes is not much time we'll do a second round of questioning if uh if anybody's interested to stay on uh it'll be rapid but uh I just want to make sure that she she's been great respectful thank you ranking member for staying in your time limit but we'll have a second round for
▶ 0:57:49people who uh want to ask additional questions with that I recognize chairman Babin for his thank you Mr chairman I appreciate it um Mr stoff uh why is it important for agencies to share information regarding research security threats to each other is there a better system that the federal government could adopt to analyze research security threats thank you for the question Mr chairman uh yeah yes to
▶ 0:58:19all there are it is is essential both from a mon U compliance monitoring enforcement investigative function to have inter agency share uh in ways that they're not really doing very much now because of different sharing rules uh uh authorities what have you and this is a particular problem with academic research because a lot of the issues and the compliance or threats that are coming are often involving more than one Federal funding agency
▶ 0:58:50you know there are a lot of scientists that get money from NSF but also Department of Defense or NIH or others and so it is really really important that there has to be a much more centralized sort of structure where these can work in a in a more efficient way where data is shared similarly um I think the US government needs to do a much better job at sharing not necessarily specific details but the the trends and patterns of Behavior when they investigate a lot of these activities and they in
▶ 0:59:20my opinion has not done a very good job particularly law enforcement explaining to Academia hey there are all these things that are happening or behaviors not all of which is elicit uh but compromises the Integrity the value system um the honesty uh that you that you depend on to conduct research and in a trusted fashion and we see that and I've seen that when I worked in government I supported a lot of these investigations many of them never become an actual public record or an indictment or
▶ 0:59:50what have you and so there's all this information that's not being adequately shared so you need to have both and having a centralized structure in my written testimony I talk about basically building a national Center um a a crude analogy would be an NCTC okay thank you very much and Mr Sergeant uh under the first Trump Administration ostp established an inter agency working group on research security Under The Joint Committee on Research environments under the Biden Administration
▶ 1:00:21this effort was discontinued could you describe the purpose and the role of J of the jcore subcommittee on research security to coordinate activities for identifying and addressing threats to our academic Enterprise honestly that's not an area of my expertise however I will just say that having had extensive experience with the National Science and Technology Council of which Jor is a part of um that the purpose of
▶ 1:00:51these inter agency activities is the sharing of information the coordination of best practices so um I imagine that's what they were doing in the context of our research security right okay thank you and then finally Dr Zuber what resources are available to universities for assessment identification and Analysis of research security threats and how are these tools informing and promoting information sharing of risks
▶ 1:01:21among universities okay there's a a senior res research officers of the uh uh research University's uh coordinate information uh the president's coordinate information the NSF secure Center DARPA has put out guidance uh and the NIH had put out guidance and the doe had put out guidance um but it's in many cases it's vague and National Security Presidential memorandum 33 was
▶ 1:01:51meant to standardize a lot of the reporting AC Ross and um and the implementation which is underway but still not finally there so if it were done properly that would theoretically take care of all of the um compliance that is uh the lack of compliance that's accidental okay where people thought they reported something but they reported it there not here okay it would not take care of uh
▶ 1:02:22somebody who truly wants to do something wrong okay and those those are actually difficult to root out but the um you know we're still despite two presidential administrations that have gone over n SPM 33 the the guidance is still sufficiently vague that you know universities are supposed to put a um a research Integrity plan in place but they don't tell us what the plan should constitute and how a university can certify that it's actually Meeting those criteria
▶ 1:02:52that it thank you I I see I see the others nodding their heads would would you like to add into that as well no I I I just I I strongly agree with Dr Zuber that a lack of clarity a lack of guidance a lot a lack of granular sort of level what is it that we need to do what are the tools infrastructures that need to be placed the secure Center may may be able to start addressing those issues but this has been going on as Dr Zuber said for for multiple administrations and there's still a lot of work that needs to be done and I don't think we have the time to
▶ 1:03:22kind of do this as Slow Rolling as we have and I'm out of time Mr chairman I'm sorry so I yield back unless you'll thank you Mr chair we will have a second round for uh for anybody who wants to participate I just want to keep this on track if you don't mind sir with that we recognize ranking member lren for questions uh thank you Mr chairman and I see a lot of agreement among our witnesses that we do need clear standards we
▶ 1:03:52need Clarity we need adherence we need to protect our country I think there's bipartisan agreement on those things but as a ranking member Sykes mentioned in her statement there is an unconfirmed report that Doge has arrived at NSF now reportedly one of the musk uh hackers setting up shop uh at headquarters is Edward cortin cortine is better known in his various online communities by the moniker
▶ 1:04:23big balls now this 19-year-old is allegedly gaining access to NSF Data Systems I'll try and be brief when I go through the laundry list of reasons why I believe this teenager is unfit to serve in government uh I am advised that Mr big ball started a company called desla Tesla do seexy LLC a site that allowed users to share images confidentially the URLs created uh redirected to
▶ 1:04:53images hosted on his website it apparently included references to the sale of child sexual abuse material among other really horrible topics it's reported that in uh 2022 he was fired from an internship after leaking confidential business information to competitors he bragged about this online boasting that he had access to every single machine it's reported that he also participated in chat rooms with us law enforcement um
▶ 1:05:23uh that have monitored uh his cyber crimes investigating cyber crimes and now apparently he has access to government Data Systems most recently allegedly NSF uh NSF hosts personally identifiable information of employees principal investigators confidential business information Trade Secrets uh when relevant to project proposals and uh controlled unclassified information related
▶ 1:05:54to law enforcement sensitive information Dr Zuber you have plenty of 19-year-olds working at MIT Labs if an MIT student admitted to stealing data from a Lab in order to share it with people not authorized to access it do you have disciplinary procedures that would prevent that student from ever accessing sensitive information again uh well if uh so all this is alleged I I correct I can't vouch for
▶ 1:06:24it but we do have um uh disciplinary procedures it's it's it's actually potentially a research Integrity violation and we have you know there are very clear rules for how to deal with uh research integrity and when um when there is a finding there are consequences let me just say as a hypothetical because these have have been reported obviously we haven't done an independent investigation but if someone uh with the alleged background that I've just outlined had
▶ 1:06:54access to sens information at us research agencies would that be a cause for concern uh well even if there were no research involved if there was access to personally identifiable information of you know any member of um of our community or any Community um that would clearly be a a great concern Mr Sergeant you're an expert on our Science and Technology Enterprise and you feel strongly that certain information must be stringently protected and I
▶ 1:07:24agree with you um what do you think about allowing an individual access to our science agency's um controlled unclassified information if that individual had a history of sharing confidential business information with competitors or if that person had uh been known to host images with titles alluding to child sexual abuse or uh if that person participated
▶ 1:07:54in for monitored by law enforcement during cyber crimes investigations if that were the background would that cause concern absolutely well I would just like to say uh Mr chairman that while we are of one mind that we must uh protect ourselves uh from uh threats from those abroad we ought to be alert to the threat that is being posed by this Army of teenage and 20-some hackers that have invaded our government
▶ 1:08:25uh that are accessing our private information and including our science information including individuals such as Mr Big Balls who uh is now apparently rooting through the NSF database and with that Mr chairman I back thank you thank you ranking member just to clarify uh as chair just to make sure we're on the same page my committee staff has just been officially told that no one from those has entered the NSF uh that's
▶ 1:08:56official uh 84 of 86 probationary employees at NSF have been reinstated no grants at the National Science Foundation have been cancelled there is no funding freeze all those things are now official since January 20th nearly 500 Awards have gone out and more than 200 panels have taken place uh I just want to make sure that we're clarifying the details since we're we're getting realtime information uh just don't want to confuse or confound any real information and
▶ 1:09:26I'm not trying to make this partisan I just want to make sure it's factual thank you with that I recognize myself for five minutes of questions Mr Sergeant this is somewhat of a rhetorical question but uh are American graduate students any less intelligent or qualified than Chinese graduate students Mr chairman I always forget that Mr chairman I love rhetorical
▶ 1:09:56questions it's a yes or no question sir American students are as capable as Chinese students or more so of course and and I I I wouldn't want to be the person who said they weren't uh but then why do you think that certain universities insist on hiring Chinese graduate students when there are plenty of American students available literally up to 50% of all graduate students hired are from foreign areas that go back to foreign areas why do we keep doing that a good
▶ 1:10:26question um part of it is momentum uh a good deal of universities Prestige is the ability to attract intern the best International students and it allows for these connections and relationships to be made back to the home countries of these students and so uh by continuing to recruit them and allowing them to you know be a part of our University education system they develop these relationships and these Rel relationships go on Long beyond
▶ 1:10:56the time that those students are there because those students then matriculate out and they go into other positions in Academia they go into industry and those ties allow that University to benefit from that relationship so there's probably a financial incentive of some for because otherwise it doesn't really make sense right a lot of that Talent goes back to their foreign National lands and then a lot of talents go goes out into the community but they're not really citizens unless they so go down that path it's almost always follow the money
▶ 1:11:27very good putting research security aside what is the long-term impact of us students if universities continue to fill graduate posts with foreign Nationals in other words we're not filling it with Americans what is the long-term impact well it it's it's been self-fulfilling uh you know if you continue to bring foreign students in because they're the best those spots are not available for excellent us students to go and become phds and themselves become princi principal investigators and so
▶ 1:11:57then you find yourself in the position of not having Americans to fill these positions and so it's a self-fulfilling uh uh behavior and I just want to highlight this in a university system that's ranked not even in the top 30 in the world the United States who puts more money into education than any other country by far and yet we're spending half of the research dollar half of the money that we spend to develop instructors goes to foreign Nationals here in the United States we are basically
▶ 1:12:27cutting off the head of our future teachers researchers innovators and we're going to fall further behind if we're not even the top 30 and we're falling further behind why would we train other countries to subvert our education system I don't understand uh Dr Zuber I one of the things I noticed is is that we we have a lot of money from endowments even MIT does I don't know why but you know they they happen to have a lot of pride in their University do you think that that's they intend when we give US Dollars taxpayers say
▶ 1:12:58hey you know what I'm going to give you a lot of money to develop I think us students is what most people think when they give when US citizens give money to an endowment they want to see a university develop Us Talent and we give money to see us Talent developed why are we bringing in so many people from other countries when you literally up to 50% of the people why do you think that is yeah Mr chairman thank you for that question so so MIT is 97% stem students okay okay and um and we accept
▶ 1:13:28all the top us students that apply and uh let me tell you when we have a first robotics competition for middle school students in the United States we fill up high school gyms when the Chinese hold first robotic competitions they fill up stadiums okay so uh so it's a question of students going into stem okay then interesting question uh or interesting
▶ 1:13:58statistic U us students who graduate okay with stem Fields only a third of them go into stem careers so they're they're I would make the case that part of that is because of the way we influence our students to begin with if you look at even the way that Tik Tok was used here in America a Chinese controlled TiK ToK by the way they want to develop influencers in America instead of scientists whereas it's used in China on a limited basis to develop people to get into science this is a systemic problem in education system
▶ 1:14:29and we are in a competition with these folks that are we are literally educating and bringing in talent but we're then divesting from that in the way that we're uh we're giving up that talent and I think it's a very dangerous precedent I'm going to go ahead and yield uh because I'm out of time and I want to stay on on and not be a hypocrite uh that Miss uh Bachi out of Oregon bonami sorry out of Oregon my my hometown is thank
▶ 1:14:59you Mr chairman I know you have some Oregon connections and thank you to the ranking member and thank you to the witnesses for your expertise uh and being here today I want to join U the ranking member syes and sending deepest condolences to the family of of uh representative Turner um he will be missed um so so this hearing um Mr chairman you talked about I didn't have a chance to fact check your your numbers and facts about the NSF but I do know that they have laid off many people even though they may be trying to bring some of them back they're still facing significant
▶ 1:15:29budget cuts as are most agencies uh and and the disruption and Chaos has been really concerning um th this hearing is titled assessing the threat to us funded research and it is indeed an important topic but threats to American Research and research security uh do not only come from foreign actors they also come from The Reckless actions of this Administration that are destabilizing our our scientific Enterprise and purging Federal at Noah at NSF at nist At Doe and ranking member syes
▶ 1:15:59mentioned that uh intelligence is already showing that China and Russia are eager to exploit that by trying to recruit uh some of our scientists particularly scientists with National Security experience and and I want to note as as well on to follow up to ranking member lkin Lan's comments that about Doge um the Trump Administration uh sent via an un uh unsecure email server the names of CIA employees which is incredibly dangerous
▶ 1:16:30uh you might have seen that they're they seem to be pretty good at hacking in but not in protecting databases and I'm sure everyone saw uh the the Takeover of the screens at HUD um they couldn't even figure out how to get the images off the screen they had to go unplug the television so I mean my my point is what are these people doing that it's creating a lot of instability and security and uncertainty about the safety of our data and research so instead of strengthening our defenses the administration seems to be gutting
▶ 1:17:00key research agencies as I mentioned and purging experienced scientists sending a chilling message to researchers that their work might be under constant suspicion um the the so-called um China initiative that was um implemented during the first um Trump Administration was a an example of uh mismanagement and certainly some racial profiling it disproportionately targeted SCI scientists of Chinese descent drove Talent away and ultimately did more harm than good the Brennan Center for
▶ 1:17:31justice rightly called it a failure warning against Reviving such misguided efforts and meanwhile as our institutions are struggling with frozen grants and and reduced uh indirect CA support and uncertainty about whether International collaboration will be uh discouraged or even criminalized other nations especially China as I mentioned have seized on the on the opportunity so the US cannot afford to keep making making these mistakes our science uh Enterprise thrives on openness collaboration and stability not on paranoia
▶ 1:18:01and politically driven purges so we need a serious evidence-based discussion I we we all take this seriously I want to ask you Dr Zuber because I know you've been at MIT for a while um and we think back to the the China initiative from the first Trump Administration uh assuming that there's going to be something similar what would you change and what would you keep the same um well I think um actually Mr staf uh touched on it I think in his both in his remarks and in more detail in his testimony but the um I mean the China
▶ 1:18:31initiative initially focused on Espionage and they started with industry and then they moved to universities and there was very very little um uh Espionage in universities the the uh kinds of uh indiscretions within universities our um our transmission information that will be published anyway uh but it doesn't rise to the level of uh of Espionage and so
▶ 1:19:02uh these should be adjudicated um by agencies you know and you talking about the balance if you're caught you lose funding for five years and and that will take care of uh that problem and in fact there was a report by the jsons um uh uh that put out that said uh this sort of thing should be uh treated as a research Arch Integrity violation would thank you and in my remaining half a minute Mr stoff you you advocated basically for cutting ties with Chinese researchers
▶ 1:19:32but would would shut out shutting out top tier Talent like in AI or Quantum Computing uh limit our potential well I I I I I don't necessarily agree that we completely cut everything off um but we're not even cutting off we're not even restricting the most high-risk collaborations or people we're we're still letting them in we're still collaborating with uh defense and weapons programs and state own Enterprises in China so can we start with that and I would say we need to start restricting that and then we can be more
▶ 1:20:02nuanced I appreciate that my time is expired I yield back thank you chairman thank you and with that we re we recognize representative big from Alaska thank you chairman um first question for Mr staf um China's lab bu itself a near Arctic State and has invested in Arctic research collaborations with us institutions have Chinese linked
▶ 1:20:33researchers or institutions attempted to establish Partnerships with Alaska based Arctic research programs uh thank you for the question uh unfortunately I have no knowledge or expertise in the area with regards to Alaska but I can quickly say that China has aggressively done this with other polar Nations like Norway for example where their largest state-owned uh defense conglomerate that builds radar systems and uh uh communication systems for the pla established
▶ 1:21:03ground stations for Norway under the guise of scientific purposes um and this is happening I believe elsewhere I don't know if it's happening in Alaska but they they have a practice of doing this uh and it's a and it's a big problem because they're actually developing more advanced radar systems as a result thank you and uh given that Arctic Focus uh ha are you aware of any efforts that the Chinese have made with respect to Greenland as well no not personally
▶ 1:21:33that hasn't I haven't looked into it but I would be surprised if they were not pursuing that that those regions because of their strategic import that they represent let me ask you this given that Alaska hosts key US Coast Guard operations and Arctic Maritime research are you aware of any instances in which a foreign adversar have attempted to infiltrate ferally funded programs tied to Maritime security uh yes that's actually fairly extensive uh but we don't get a we don't
▶ 1:22:03have a good handle on it we do know that uh a number of Civilian PRC defense institutions that are heavily involved in pla Navy submarine uh under underwater warfare underwater Weaponry systems Communications Etc uh collaborate extensively almost uh without any sort of restriction with most uh us universities some of which even involve Department of Defense funding because it's in a fundamental research area as I mentioned earlier there's really no regulatory oversight
▶ 1:22:34over it do you believe that the that the Coast Guard should be given additional resource resources to protect research uh collaborations involving Arctic defense infrastructure uh possibly but I I do think a better approach is what I mentioned my testimony is if you have a centralized government entity that kind of does this for all federal agencies it would be far more efficient and effect thank you and uh additional question um for Mr Sergeant do you believe that uh that
▶ 1:23:04Congress should require enhanced security screening for federally funded researchers in critical areas such as Artic security Arctic energy or climate studies for us researchers yes or or any additional researchers that may be coming from an from a place outside the United States but are working with us researchers yes absolutely I I think any area that has potential National Security implications we need to make sure that the people
▶ 1:23:34who are working on them don't have any ties that make them of question their loyalty to the United States so you don't believe the current screening uh practices are sufficient in order to address uh the security concerns that we have I can't speak to the adequacy of the current security screenings okay thank you do you know whether uh again uh to Mr Sergeant do you know whether uh federal agencies
▶ 1:24:04have conducted comprehensive research security audits of Institutions um in the Arctic which engage in Arctic science climate research or Strategic Defense studies you know if that's happening I don't know anything of that nature no okay thank you with that I yield back and now representative Rivas from California is recognized for five minutes thank you chairman um cormi and ranking
▶ 1:24:34member Sykes um first I join my colleagues in in expressing condolences to the family of my fellow freshman colleague um Sylvester Turner he will be missed by all of us I'd like to start uh by taking a moment of personal privilege and thank Dr Zuber uh for appearing before the subcommittee today as an MIT Alum myself it gives me great pride to see an MIT Professor discussing the importance and the challenges
▶ 1:25:05facing the scientific community and the research ecosystem o over the last seven weeks we have seen a complete disruption and attack to one of America's pillars for the future our scientific and academic Community our research ecosystem depends on a steady stream of educated experts as co-chair of the bipartisan stem education caucus I take great pride in America's leadership to produce the next generation
▶ 1:25:35of researchers and scientists of the future the future will only come from early and continued stem investments in every zip code in America I have spent most of my career um engaging and preparing students American students um to get into stem fields uh it's our responsibility to provide the current and future Workforce with the tools to innovate and create techn technological solutions and emerging and
▶ 1:26:05essential Technologies and industries like AI healthc care and the environment however a major threat to us funded research is this administration's Reckless actions that include layoffs of about 800 employees at Noah up to 2,000 employees at the department of energy and more than 150 employees at the National Science Foundation despite those dizzying acts against our nation's science core one of the most worrying
▶ 1:26:35Cuts has been the NIH policy capping indirect cost at 15% I worry about the capacity of smaller institutions to keep up and that concern has only grown in recent weeks as I hear from constituents and organizations serving myct District indirect costs are expenditures that aren't tied directly to research Staffing or supplies but they nonetheless support infrastructure and activities that are vital to the function
▶ 1:27:06of research institutions the reality is that this is a drastic reduction in reimbursement that will result result in more than 800 million in cuts for my home state of California this will devastate the development of life-saving research inhibit patient access to groundbreaking treatments and clinical trials and will seat American dominance in biomedical research to our for foreign competitors like China Russia
▶ 1:27:36and Iran for years to come Dr Zuber I've joined my colleagues in two letters to the acting NIH director expressing my deep concerns on these NIH cuts and how they will impact my state and District can you elaborate on how these Cuts will impact research universities ability to compete and how you anticipate smaller institutions will impacted okay thank thank you very much a lot of of thoughts there and thank
▶ 1:28:06you for raising the indirect cost because people don't understand indirect costs okay it's whether a cost is a direct cost or an indirect cost that's determined by uniform guidance both are the cost of doing research you could put it in one column or you could put it in the other column but that's what it costs okay uh if we don't get the um indirect cost reimbursement the larger schools that have endowments have to use their endowments to cover that and
▶ 1:28:37um and uh at MIT we already I I I won't say subsidize I will say co-invest in research 100% okay so we our research volume we put in an equal amount from our endowment to kind of double the uh the impact from the federal and other funding that uh that we receive schools with either smaller schools or uh R1 research
▶ 1:29:07institutions with small endowments especially those with medical centers don't have any funds to draw on okay so we would do less research okay so less impact in the world and MIT grads have started as you know tens of thousands of companies okay okay um but it for schools without endowments and have medical schools they're going to be out of business okay and these are economic drivers um in their areas and educational
▶ 1:29:37uh important educational institutions producing the workforce for tomorrow so the the impacts are potentially huge thank you with that I back thank you and next we will recognize representative mlan Delaney from Maryland for five minutes um so I thank my P the panelists and our ranking members for convening this important hearing you hear me hi so hello um
▶ 1:30:08so thank I think the panelist and our riking members for convening this important hearing striking the right balance between cyber and research Visa China and Russia with respect to our research uh universities and I really appreciated Dr zuber's comments how other very legitimate concerns with respect to uh China with um and research but um how we cannot you know throw the you know baby out with the bath water and we really need to not cut off entirely and really preserve some of this for us
▶ 1:30:38competitiveness um I represent the sixth district of Maryland and in my district is uh nist parts of NIH the National Institute of cancer Fort Dietrich which deals with some of our pathogens you know our fire academy and our nearby um my next door is Noah of course so research and Innovation through these um incredible um agencies and the hiring freezes by rep bichi is really important that we drive um continue to understand how these
▶ 1:31:08freezes and cuts will really undercut both our cyber security and other um institutions but um building on some of the uh two questions I have because I have only limited time um in terms of underresourced universities and building on rep um rias's questions concerning indirect costs um I asked the panel but uh Dr Zuber 1 do indirect costs contribute to universities compliance with laws including those related to research
▶ 1:31:38security and do you believe that universities should be able to classify uh research security support as a direct cost so to ensure the protection of sensitive research and data okay so so I don't know all the details but but I can tell you that indirect costs um uh part of it is facilities the larger part of it is facilities and taking care of the buildings that you wouldn't have unless you were doing research in them okay and then um the other part is Administrative costs and those administrative
▶ 1:32:09costs uh you know the compliance has been going through the roof for for years and years and years and it you know more rules come in and no rules ever seem to go away and um and so you need staff to be able to handle that the uh the recent uh focus on research security has caused a a big increase we've had to hire a lot more people to do compliance and most universities in the indirect cost system are already maxed out in
▶ 1:32:39the um administrative part so um so obviously if you could you know doesn't matter to me if they're direct costed or indirect direct cost it but all this has got to be paid for well I our our research institutions are nations jeels and why we are where we are in America and so just making sure that we are able to protect that information and those collaborations I want to move on to cyber security um I worked at the Biden Administration as deputy secretary nitia and actually worked on a lot of cyber National Security
▶ 1:33:09issues uh Visa some of um even Huawei and 5G and and AI but um just this week following orders from defense secretary our defense secretary um dod's us cyber command suspended operations of planning for offensive cyber um operations against Russia and we're weakening our cyber security posture with Russia will hurt our national security and make us B more more vulnerable um research conversations have largely revolved around a threat posed by China
▶ 1:33:39but we cannot forget Russia as a serious threat I guess I ask all of you um can uh well Dr Sergeant what potential is there for harm if the Trump Administration continues to weaken our offensive cyber operations against foreign adversaries and to the panel can the federal government play a role in bolstering the cyber security defenses of our universities against threats from adversaries thank you for the question first of all let me correct
▶ 1:34:09you on one thing I have not earned my PhD I am a just a mainstream engineer systems engineer from the University of Virginia but um and by the way let me say uh with nist in your District I am a massive fan of nist I think they're an outstanding intution with great civil servant employees who do a fantastic job in a wide range of areas with respect to cyber security I don't think you can begin to overstate its importance and the risk that we Face from both China and Russia
▶ 1:34:40to our every system in the United States including our water systems our Power Systems our transportation systems all of them are at risk and China is I'm told I don't have any inside information but I am told and I have read that they are dropping all kinds of malware in our systems so that if we find ourselves in conflict with them they can flip a switch and cause a lot of internal damage in the United States so I don't think you can overestimate the importance
▶ 1:35:10of cyber security thank you any other comments if I have time uh the members time has expired but thank you very much and with that I'm going to go ah and give closing marks first of all thank you all for being here today it's a it's an honor I know it's at your own expense and I know that sometimes it's thankless but we want to thank you for being here today I thank ranking member syes for being here and being a joy to work with uh I wanted to address a couple things that were brought up during the hearing obviously
▶ 1:35:40we talked about NSF uh funding we've and also Staffing we understand that doge is going to make some mistakes along the way I get it they're being very aggressive and they've admitted that they're going to make mistakes I want to address the issue of age some people say age is a concern for those those members who are uh or those people who are actually doing the hard work and labor realizing that Einstein I believe was what 26 years old when he published the theory of relativity uh that you have Zuckerberg invented
▶ 1:36:10Facebook at the age of 19 that we have 17 18 19 year olds in school right now coming up with brilliant theories on the next evolution of science that my great uncle was I think about 26 years old when he was a division Commander as a b77 pilot and was shot down in the greatest air war of all time and became one of the senior officers in in stolic three age is not really the consideration when we talk about people who are going to create and sacrifice in this next
▶ 1:36:40Generation matter of fact we should be asking people to step in earlier matter of fact codling our kids certainly doesn't help them do what we need them to do for this next generation of competition and I think the only number that we talk about it's not about age but it's about the numbers we need to save because our government is far too invested in waste Fraud and Abuse and we have a $ 36 trillion deficit right now the interest payments the interest payments alone on the debt
▶ 1:37:10that we have incurred exceed not only the military investment we do per year but also the research we do if we don't do something to trim the waste we won't have the amount of money we need to to invest in the future generations of America now I think this hearing is really all about protecting our investments the money we spend on education to develop the next generation of Science and Technologies when you're talk about the most transformational technologies that this this
▶ 1:37:41generation's ever seen in AI in Quantum and other technologies that are going to literally change the face the way that we employ the way we explore the way we create jobs and how we fight the next War we're on the front line you are on the front line and we need to make sure that our peers aren't getting advantages from our hard work and our investments and I think that's what this entire uh Committee hearing has been about I hope we continue this dialogue because if we don't if we're not careful about
▶ 1:38:11what we do it will result in some catastrophic results God bless you thank you for being here thank you for participating and with that we
▶ 1:38:52e for