▶ 0:17:57e e
▶ 0:18:46the subcommittee on water resources and environment will come to order I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so ordered I also ask you unanimous consent that members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so ordered as a reminder if members wish to insert a document into the record please also email it to documents TI mail.house.gov
▶ 0:19:17I'll now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes I want to first thank the witnesses for joining us today for our hearing on water infrastructure financing through the Clean Water State revolving fund and the water infrastructure finance and Innovation act or thank God whff programs at the EPA and the Army Corps of Engineers reliable water infrastructure is critical to safe
▶ 0:19:47healthy and secure communities under the jurisdiction of this subcommittee and through these programs water infrastructure can mean many different things such as wastewater treatment which protect the public health and water quality ports and navigational channels that enable the movement of goods Nationwide and levies and dams that Safeguard communities from flooding among others this infrastructure may not be flashy but the communities across Georgia and throughout the United States rely
▶ 0:20:17on it every single day and building and maintaining it is neither a small or cheap undertaking for example some estimates have shown that hundreds of billions of dollars will be required to rep repair and replace Clean Water and Wastewater infrastructure over the next 20 years those cost only swell and we account for other water infrastructure needs the clean water sfr or srf and the and the with the wiia
▶ 0:20:48programs provide financing primarily in the form of low interest loans for a wide range of Waste Water and Wastewater projects it is our responsibility to ensure that these programs are providing communities assistance to address their water infrastructure needs while also ensuring that the programs are managed in a financially responsible way so they can keep providing this assistance in future the clean water srf has provided $172
▶ 0:21:18billion through almost 50,000 lowest loans to communities mainly for Wastewater infrastructure facilities and for nearly 40 years this program has functioned as a successful partnership between the federal government and states where the states select projects to receive clean water srf financing on the other hand the EPA and wifia program and the core water infrastructure financing program
▶ 0:21:48also ref referred to as cwip were authorized in 2014 and are administered on the Federal level while the EPA swify program has closed 140 loans cwif has not yet issued its first loan cwfp has struggled to get off the ground due to a variety of limitations placed on the program by our Appropriations
▶ 0:22:18colleagues as well as the Office of Management and budget as with all federal programs there's always room for improvement to increase Effectiveness and efficiency and to ultimately spend our taxpayer dollars responsibly also want to note that for the clean water srf and the wifa programs to reach their full potential in assisting communities we must also cut burdensome red tape and provide regulatory flexibility to the projects
▶ 0:22:49so that they get done faster these are initiatives that I want to continue to work on this Congress and in partnership with the Trump administration because they're reasonably less restrictive regulatory environment will benefit all projects and programs as well as our economy I'm looking forward to our hearing from our Witnesses today which will provide real life perspectives on these water infrastructure financing programs both the challenges and the successes
▶ 0:23:19I now recognize the ranking member Wilson for five minutes for her opening statement thank you so much chair Collins for holding today's hearing on the critical issue of affordable investments in water infrastructure this is my first time here as ranking member and I'd like to take this opportunity to add my congratulations
▶ 0:23:50to your selection to lead this very important subcommittee and I look forward to working with you as ranking member and working towards meeting the water needs of our nation our communities and the hardworking families that we represent I'm privileged to represent Florida's 24th congressional district in South Florida a district known for its stunning beaches crystal clear water
▶ 0:24:20and vibrant outdoor lifestyle like much of Florida our local economy is intertwined with quality of our environment Florida is a peninsula surrounded almost by water from head to toe clean water is the foundation of our Region's environment quality of life and the approximately 1.2 million Florida jobs that
▶ 0:24:50depend on Florida's tourism our very existence depends on clean water for every day consumption Commerce Recreation and the economic Vitality of the region not to mention that my community is Ground Zero for the climate crisis that our world faces that is why I'm deeply concerned about the chaos that Republicans
▶ 0:25:20are creating with our clean water future at the last Committee hearing Witnesses from across the United States highlighted how the uncertainty caused by Republican funding freezes in water infrastructure financing is jeopardizing water projects Across the Nation this situation is leading
▶ 0:25:50to project delays escalating costs and even the potential abandonment of crucial local water infrastructure projects and the Republicans response proposing more slashes to water infrastructure Investments by at least 65% these one two punch to our nation's water infrastructure needs will directly hit the wallets of
▶ 0:26:20hardworking American families who will pay more in their water bills and that water is even available the Republican created chaos also undermines the roughly 28,000 jobs that I created for every billion dollars invested in water infrastructure putting the jobs of laborers manufacturers and Supply chains at
▶ 0:26:51risk what is most chilling about all of this is that silence from my colleagues across the aisles Dead Silence their constituents are equally concerned about the administration's actions to undermine our water supply I truly hope that the Republican silence is not a green light
▶ 0:27:22for further slashes to protect our water supply our communities cannot withstand further setbacks to federal and state efforts to protecting our water and our environment and we cannot allow this Republican Administration to weigh down American families with higher cost and public health risk I
▶ 0:27:52stand with our communities who are simply trying to affordably meet their local water needs I yield back the balance of my time and I look forward to hearing from the witnesses thank you I would now like to uh welcome our Witnesses and thank them for being here today we have uh Jeff Walker who is former president of the Council of infrastructure financing Authorities on behalf the Council of infrastructure financing
▶ 0:28:22authorities yeah yeah I'd also like to uh introduce our next which with who is Chairman Tony Hillary of the Lumi Nation I hope I pronounced that right is it and uh and I'd like to now introduce uh Mike
▶ 0:28:54matii did I get that right maich yeah I'm from the south man we don't we don't get that far past Smith and Jones now economic and uh finance service counciling Consulting lead at Jacobs on behalf of the United States Chamber of Commerce and uh Mr Dan Buckley uh preconstruction executive midatlantic and with Garner Construction on behalf of the national utility contractors Association um I'm going to take a minute just to briefly uh explain
▶ 0:29:24our lighting system to the witnesses if you notice there three lights in front of you the uh green light is is good to go the yellow light means that you're running close on time and uh the red light means to please conclude your remarks I'll also ask unanimous consent that the witness's full statements be included in the record without objection so ordered I ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our Witnesses have provided answers to any questions that
▶ 0:29:55may be submitted to them in writing without objection so ordered I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection so ordered as your written testimony has been made part of the record the subcommittee ask that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes with that Mr Walker you are recognized for 5 minutes for
▶ 0:30:25your testimony thank you chairman wrecking member Wilson members of the committee thank you for letting me testify on behalf of the Clean Water State revolving funds around the nation and the Council of infrastructure financing authorities my name is Jeff Walker I sered the executive director administrator of the water development board which manages all the srfs in Texas I've also served as pres president of CIFA and the board has managed the srf program for over 30 30 years the clean water srf around the nation asked me to deliver four messages today first
▶ 0:30:55the Clean Water srfs love loans federally subsidized low interest interest loans are fiscally responsible Investments that protect human health and environment affordable financing impacts the affordability of household Wastewater bills today and in the future there will always be need for some portion to be grants however loan repayments build a permanent recurring source of Revenue to continue to reinvest in The NeverEnding needs to build rehabilitate and modernize clean water infrastructure today the clean water srfs have 64 billion in permanently revolving loan
▶ 0:31:25funds which is 12 billion more than the accumulative Federal funding provided the programs That's The Power of loans of a grant Perpetual growing and revolving many states are a able to leverage their capitalization grants to increase their capacity for funding however the need is great leveraging Texas allowed us to offer $482 million in funding capacity with the intended use plan demand was billion so there are 1500 new Texans coming there are 1500 new Texans
▶ 0:31:55every day and none of them are bringing water or port with them so the need is great second clean water srf loans save real money now and in the future a lowest srf loan can cut the cost of financing by more than 50% which directly impacts household was bills in 2024 the average interest rate for clean water loans was 1.9% and there's a lot of variability in interest rates across the states in Texas our rates are based on the index to the bond market but we also provide 0% loans to eligible small and Rural
▶ 0:32:26disadvantaged communities for urgent need projects and also to develop Asset Management plans this versatility and customization would be impossible with a one-sized fits-all program third the clean water srfs are effective because the programs are customized by states to meet the unique needs of the states and the community they serve States pick the projects set interest rates and determine eligibility for for forgiveness and grants allowing states to customize is what makes the state SRS one of the most successful infrastructure funding programs the nation's history
▶ 0:32:56because it's just common sense of what works in New York may not work in Georgia and what works in Texas may not work in Wisconsin and vice versa flexibility is customed to the key efficiency cost-effective results which brings me my final message Congressional mandates on clean water srf loans no matter how well intention increase the cost to clean water financing which may be born by the families with higher water bills more importantly these mandates are just more process and paperwork not necessarily more protection for public health
▶ 0:33:26State should be responsible loan requirements that make sense to their borrowers and circumstances for example in Texas we provide uh we require srf borrowers of $500,000 or more to create a water conservation and drought contingency plan because these are very important state priorities other srfs have different requirements what is most relevant to that state and Community I distinctly remember a utility telling me once that this SRS were the most expensive cheap money they'd ever had because of the paperwork and Reporting
▶ 0:33:57requirements and all mandates the bottom line is that states are closer to communities and know their environmental challenges better than Washington DC which makes our states better position to effectively address these challenges the most valuable role in Congress and the federal government can play is to support States in funding and flexibility which will get the best result for the American citizens and taxpayers I want to remind you too that these capitalization grants are not EPA grants they're the states come straight to the states and the states decide how to use those
▶ 0:34:27I want to thank thank uh the chair and Rec MERS for the opportunity to share the thoughts of Clan RS and I look forward any questions you may have in discussion thank you I'd uh now like to recognize the ranking member of the full committee Mr lson to introduce our next witness thank you Mr chair really honored to introduce Tony hir uh who's the chair of the Lumi Nation uh in uh Northwest Washington State so the Pacific Northwest is defined by its clean water
▶ 0:34:57including the health of the Puget Sound the Salish sea the noack river and surrounding River streams and lakes native peoples were the first to recognize and respect the importance of these critical natural resources and their inhabitants including salmon and orcas for current and future Generations I look forward to hearing the Lumi nation's perspective today on the importance of clean water and water infrastructure needs of tribal and Rural communities chair Herer is currently serving his third consecutive chair uh year as chairman of the lumy Indian
▶ 0:35:27Business Council I'd also note that when I was first elected uh Tony's father Daryl was the chair of the so I just he can't get rid of me and I can't get rid of the hilarious so um as a lifelong resident of lumy and Bellingham Washington Cher Herer has continued his family's dedication to uplifting their Community ensuring that the tribe is at the table their voices are heard and they're fighting to secure funding needed for their people I want to recognize his leadership as well on addressing the ongoing opioid
▶ 0:35:58epidemic both regionally and nationally and the important work that we've done together to combat this problem when he's not busy with his duties as a chair he's a lifelong commercial fisherman as well I think it's safe to say he'd probably rather be be out fishing today than testifying before Congress but I'm glad he made the trip I raised my hands to the Lumi Nation for their work they've done and will continue to do for their community and Northwest Washington and we look forward to your testimony
▶ 0:36:31chairman Collins uh ranking member Wilson uh chairman Graves and and ranking member Larson it's an honor and and a privilege to test testify here uh before this distinguished subcommittee uh to to discuss uh water infrastructure nalm and that means in lumy language good morning uh my dear friends and and relatives my name is s inton my name is Tony hair and I am the chairman of the the
▶ 0:37:01Lumi Nation In 1855 our ancestors signed the point Elliott treaty uh where we left vast lands to the United States in exchange for a reservation and the guarantee that we could continue to hunt and fish and gather in our usual and accustomed areas our right to Health Care our right to education our right to be lummy and continue our way of life this is a shared history a peace treaty between the lummy nation and the United States of America
▶ 0:37:31which means we are bound to each other and carry responsibility to to follow through on on these obligations and since time of Memorial the the Lummi people have depended on water it is more than a resource it is life itself it sustains our culture our identity our economy and our treaty rights uh the health of our Waters directly affects the health of people our salmon runs uh and our shelfish beds
▶ 0:38:02and we identify as the salmon people uh the health and well-being of the lummy people is undeniably bound to the health and well-being of the salmon and thus it is also bound to the clean and sustainable water Waters that they depend on unfortunately throughout our history we continue to face significant challenges in maintaining Waste Water treatment systems that ensure safe drinking water and ensure the protection of waters that sustain our treaty reserved resources when pollution or failing infrastructure forces our shellfish
▶ 0:38:32beds to close it doesn't just impact the tribe it shuts down an economic engine that supports both tribal and non-tribal fishermen local businesses and food supply change clean water isn't just about protecting the environment it's about protecting jobs sustaining economies and upholding treaty rights uh Wastewater systems uh at lumy have been outdated and over capacity and for six years our Gooseberry Point uh wastewater treatment
▶ 0:39:02plant operated Beyond its limits discharging inadequately treated water and fixing this problem was not easy it took more than uh six years to secure funding and complete the project with construction itself lasting uh 2 years and 8 months and the total project cost uh reached about $8.7 million dollar and of this 12.9 million came from Grants or forgivable loans with the remainder 5.7 million financed through our state revolving
▶ 0:39:33fund while the Gooseberry Improvement project was a major step forward it is only part of the broader infrastructure uh crisis that we Face the lumy Trel Water and Sewer District operates A system that is components dating back since before 1970 and since 1979 the system has been expanded piece by piece leaving us with aging and inefficient infrastructure and dire need of a complete overhaul uh we serve over 6,000 residents both Indian and non-indian operating
▶ 0:40:03nine Wells for portable water storage sites and three wastewater treatment plants uh saltwater intrusion threatens our water supply private Wells operate unregulated and every summer we struggle to meet demand forcing us to purchase off-reservation water we have multiple uh pressing Water and Sewer projects requiring about 50 million in federal investment and we have identified another 46 million and potential needs uh these challenges are not unique to us tribal and Rural communities across the country face
▶ 0:40:33a similar infrastructure shortfalls and while the infrastructure investment and jobs act provided a much needed boost it is only a fraction of the need of the 43 billion allotted nationally for drinking water and wastewater from uh fiscal year 22 to 26 about 8868 million was set aside for tribes and we thank you for uh this funding and our very grateful but it does pale in comparison to the overall need and I would like to emphasize
▶ 0:41:04that even when funding exists tribes face unnecessary uh barriers in accessing it the federal funding system is overly complex and fragmented requiring tribes to navigate multiple agencies each with different eligibility criteria applications and Reporting requirements and this bureaucracy discourages many tribes from applying and EXA exagerate the infrastructure disparities I'd like to uh thank you all for for taking the time to listen to us we urge Congress to provide uh direct
▶ 0:41:34Investments and tribal set asdes and reduce bureaucratic barriers to support long-term water security health and E economic Prosperity hka thank you thank you uh next Mr Buckley you recognize for five minutes for your testimony chairman ranking member and distinguished members of this committee thank you for inviting me here today to discuss the state of Amer America's water infrastructure and the role of the American utility construction industry my name is Dan Buckley Mr Buckley could you pull
▶ 0:42:04the microphone a little bit closer to you thank you okay thank you my name is Dan Buckley and I'm I'm honored to address you as a lifelong professional in this field I'm a former chairman of the national utility contractors Association as a representative of an industry that serves the backbone of our nation and an employee owner with Garney Construction we build and maintain the water and wastewater system to keep our civilization running our work is buried often out of sight and out of mind without us the foundation of American Life
▶ 0:42:34as we know it would crumble our philosophy is simple without the water infrastructure we build and maintain civilization as we know it would not exist the utility construction industry is a diverse network of skilled workers Engineers small business owners and large firms United by a singular mission to deliver clean water to every American in business contributing billions to the economy our industry Workforce spans urban and rural communities alike many are small family-owned businesses the projects we undertake are costly
▶ 0:43:05requiring local state and federal coordination for decades the primary engine driving these projects has been the EPA State revolving fund srf providing low interest interest loans and grants to States and municipalities the srf has worked remarkably well in channeling Federal support into local projects keeping America's Water Systems operational the wifia program has has expanded access to financing for communities across the country we call on Congress to build on the program's successes by reauthorizing wifia
▶ 0:43:35and the state infrastructure financing Authority programs alongside the srfs the srs's largest fault remains however the lack of resources provided each fiscal year given enormous scope of the repairs and upgrades of our current water infrastructure demands not enough makes it into Appropriations discussions or into final law the resources allocated by the srf by Congress have never fully matched the scope of the problem the American Society of civil engineers estimates that the United States needs to invest $1 trillion doll over
▶ 0:44:05the next 25 years to maintain and upgrade our drinking water and wastewater systems yet annual srf funding has hovered only in the2 to5 billion range not nearly enough to address the backlog of projects waiting in the queue historically Federal funding covered 63 to 75% of water infrastructure costs today it's just 4% preig today's srf and wifia programs are vital Resources with Band-Aid budgets compounding this issue Congressional earmarks
▶ 0:44:36sometimes divert funds from srfs core Mission prioritizing political projects over State Le priorities leaving critical repairs unfunded in recent years deep cuts to epa's budget have been proposed with the bulk of those cuts coming directly from the srf programs annual funding for the srfs has remained static for the last seven years please keep in mind we're talking about funding clean water let me be clear the epa's office of water does an exceptional job administering these programs under difficult circumstances
▶ 0:45:06we Ur we urge Congress to protect and provide more resources as broader EPA reforms are considered at the same time States need better training and education for Grant administrators to streamline the process every hour of the day leaks and breaks waste an estimated 6 billion gallons of treated drinking water that's over 2 trillion gallons of water per year treated water goes to waste and untreated Wastewater seeps into the ground recent long-term water supply crisises in
▶ 0:45:36Jackson Mississippi Asheville North Carolina Richmond Virginia have highlighted this National predicament and there are more of them in the months ahead coming with clean water and sanitary system systems disease spreads without them disease spreads economies falter communities suffer and our quality of life erods first let's increase the investment NCA estimates as ranking member Wilson stated earlier that for every billion dollars invested in water infrastructure over 28,000 jobs are created those are American
▶ 0:46:06jobs that will stay here in the United States that'll add $4.5 trillion dollar to the GPA over the ne of GDP over the next 20 years second Congress needs to reform earmarks uh for water infrastructure ear marks are cutting into the ability for us to to provide Equitable funding uh for for water and wastewater I see my time is running limited so the last thing I'm going to say is let's look at private activity bonds reforms would incentivize private Capital to flow
▶ 0:46:36into water projects supplementing public funds and accelerating Repairs by lifting outdated caps Congress can harness the power of the private sector to complement the srf system transportation and infrastructure projects currently utilize pabs without caps in p3s throughout the nation why can't we lift the capital that is on water and waste project similar to what is done on Transportation the legislative fix would give our industry additional access to Capital not funded Congress so with that I thank you and I
▶ 0:47:06look forward to answering any questions thank you Mr mati you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony good morning chairman Collins ranking members Larsson and Wilson and and members of the subcommittee my name is Mike matage and I'm a global principal for economic and financial services at Jacob's Solutions I appreciate the opportunity to test testify today as you examine the wifia and cleanwater srf programs I would also like
▶ 0:47:37to thank the US Chamber of Commerce for their leadership and for helping to make my testimony possible we like to say at Jacobs that we that we're challenging today to reinvent tomorrow by solving the world's most critical problems and addressing the multitude of challenges to our aging water infrastructure has never been more complex as one of America's leading Consulting advisory firms Jacobs is proud to support communities in implementing affordable financing strategies and to that
▶ 0:48:07provide safe and clean water for their citizens my career to date has provided me the opportunity to work as an economic and financial planning consultant to the water industry for more than 40 years over that time I have focused much of my attention on helping water sewer and storm water utilities develop strateg IC implementable financing plans for their Capital programs while keeping rates affordable we at Jacobs and the communities we serve are deeply grateful for
▶ 0:48:37the continued commitment from Congress to fund um Federal water infrastructure programs investments into the clean water srf and wifia programs are crucial tools for States tribes and localities to address uh growing capital investment uh and capacity gaps and Rising affordability challenges since the start of the wifia program I have observed some important innovations that have helped that contributed to the
▶ 0:49:07program success I'd like to highlight a few of those first is the combination of projects initially EPA required separate applications for each unique um project uh changes were made to allow multiple projects to be combined into a combination of projects application and this has provided real efficiencies both for applicants and for EPA in administering the program second is the master agreement a few years ago
▶ 0:49:37EPA added the opportunity to request a master agreement under which separate tranches of loans with five-year implementation schedules could be negotiated and this has enabled um applicants with longer term you know Capital um programs to receive assured funding um for for those projects and third was the opportunity re to renegotiate rates um wif's flexible terms have cost-saving benefits to communities when interest rates
▶ 0:50:08dropped in 20 in 2020 EP allowed loan awardees to renegotiate their terms this option remains important because it gives um applicants flexibility if the interest rate environment becomes more favorable as of last year 11 loan hold holders took advantage of that opportunity to renegotiate rates and saved in an estimated $1.5 billion dollars in reduced interest costs even though the wifia program has provided some
▶ 0:50:38flexibility for small communities interest in wifia um by by small communities has been limited small systems face higher costs per customer than large systems because they don't have the same scale economies and as a result even with the financing terms by the wifia program customer affordability remains a challenge for small systems we believe um further refinement to the wiffy and and clean
▶ 0:51:08water srf programs can improve their access by small systems and strengthen the long-term capacity of communities first offering small systems a subsidized interest rate such as 23s of the US Treasury rate would make whff of financing more accessible this would also more close mirror the consideration given to small systems in the srf programs second expanding preconstruction financing opportunities enables Water Systems to demonstrate
▶ 0:51:38Readiness for construction faster thereby improving their access to the srfs wifia or other financing opportunities lastly technical assistance by epa's environmental Finance centers are crucial to improving the capacity development of water systems and allowing seamless delivery of projects from um Inception to completion I'll conclude by saying that the backlog of critical infrastructure needs continues to be an urgent
▶ 0:52:08National priority these programs are vital to improving public health and promoting economic growth thank you again for the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions thank you I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record three statements first first a statement from the American Society of civil engineers second a statement from the National Association of Clean Water agencies and third a statement from the associated general contractors of America
▶ 0:52:39without objection so ordered thank you all for providing your testimony we will now turn to questions for the panel and I recognize myself for five minutes for questions you know before before I ask questions I kind of like to to give a little bit of background about myself i' I'm a soft more up here second time uh second con Congress serving and uh I like to tell people I've spent 30 plus years in the private sector uh either starting small businesses or buying small businesses or running them
▶ 0:53:10and and when I come into when I when I go into a hearing I always think about three things and and that is what's the problem what's the solutions and how do we fix things so that they never happen again the other thing I like to listen to are what are the successes that are going right so that we don't mess that up and so as as you give your your answers to the questions I would kind of keep that in mind as to to the path that that I like to take the Clean Water srf program and the uh and I got this right now the
▶ 0:53:40wifia program provides significant Federal investment for our water infrastructure projects increasing the efficiency of these programs will benefit communities across the country by reducing bureaucratic red tape and supporting faster project completion now going down the line with each of you I I would like for you just to can you provide one or two suggestions and that's based on what your experiences on ways to improve the efficiency of the clean water srf
▶ 0:54:10and or the epa's wiia program and we'll start with Mr Walker thank you sir um one of the ways like I mentioned in my testimony is to reduce the number of mandates especially for small communities there are 7,000 Water Systems in Texas most them under 500 connections and and assuming they can handle all these mandates and the reporting is is not a good thing they just can't do it takes a lot of work uh Texas is just now starting to use withi you
▶ 0:54:41um one of the problems with it that I've heard it's it's really for bigger communities I mean the application fee $100,000 off the bat and it's non-refundable so small communities can't afford that plus the small communities has to pay the uh Consulting feeds for EPA and it can only be 49% of the project so they got to find another 51% of the project which is usually srfs so that's kind of replying two different places it's not really good for small it works great for a large sophisticated
▶ 0:55:12Community but it's really not good for small communities thank you uh honor H yeah yeah thank you for for that question and and I really appreciate and admire your your mindset and coming into the sub committees uh for for us uh generally speaking for for Solutions and and thinking about what some of the barriers are uh for us it's direct funding and uh we um uh and in forms of Grants as well
▶ 0:55:42uh tribal set asdes and also just uh streamlined applications and and Reporting uh requirements uh would would go a long way for for us however that looks and whatever uh that that can can is is something that would uh be beneficial and a good solution because right now we have to go through so many different hurdles of of these requirements not just local but state and federal and then also trying to go through our own uh code of laws at lumination it can be strenuous
▶ 0:56:13on our team just to compile and gather the funding so as a solution I think that's uh that's what we're looking for something a little more uh direct and and and immediate to address the immediate need thank thank you Mr i' I'd have to I'd have to rely on our utility owners to answer this a little bit more directly but I do see the down the downwind of a lot of strings that are attached to Grants when they come through the srfs programs um I think creating the
▶ 0:56:43the loan applications are fairly straightforward but the grant applications can be extremely tedious and the people that need or the end users that actually need the grants the most are the smaller utilities um that we service and they don't have the Personnel or resources to actually do grant writing it's a littleit little bit difficult for them uh to get that to get that um to get that accomplished so I think the the strings attached to Grants and the the the list of requirements that are needed on grants are
▶ 0:57:13just too great thank you Mr maage um yes um thank you um um I would I would suggest um on the wifia side that um more widespread use of the master agreement mechanism that I mentioned in my testimony where through a single letter of interest and application you can get an approval for a multi-year like 10e or 15E period um more widespread use of that mechanism would
▶ 0:57:43reduce some of the um application requirements and bureaucracy and on the on the srf side the equivalent is programmatic financing and some states offer programmatic Finance but not all states do so more widespread use of programmatic financing in the srf program I think could also accomplish some important efficiencies thank you um I see that my time is is up so we'll recognize the ranking member Wilson now for five
▶ 0:58:17minutes thank you Mr chair I I want to welcome the witnesses to the Water Resource and environment subcommittee we're here to discuss water financing specifically the water infrastructure finance and Innovation or wh whia and the chair and the Clean Water State revolving fund they ensure our
▶ 0:58:47communities have properly functioning Wastewater infrastructure and support efforts in every corner of the country they allow us to invest in our nation's water infrastructure funding projects ranging in sizes from as small as $50,000 to millions of dollars my South Florida Community received $ 147 million of whia loan to increase the
▶ 0:59:17reliability of our drinking water supply my Mantra has always been jobs jobs jobs in this project in s Florida will deliver countless jobs across both Miami day County and the Florida Keys will also help deliver clean water to roughly 150,000 Floridians in 2019 we saw Miami dayve County receive a100 million loan these investments
▶ 0:59:48in Florida are critical my district includes the entire water Coastline biscan Bay and some of the most beautiful beaches in the world what is not just near to us it is the lifeblood of our community it supports our tourism sports fishing cruise lines and cargo ships so I'm grateful for the work of this committee um and what they're doing with the Water Resource development Act
▶ 1:00:18of 2026 with that I have a question for the panel I want start with chairman hair as Congress consider both reauthorization and funding of the clean srf do you support maintaining the funding levels of the last four years of blil funding for the srf program over the next five
▶ 1:00:49years and with cutting the Clean Water srf program by over 65% have an adverse impact on meeting the Clean Water infrastructure needs of our community especially our small Rural and economically disadvantaged communities if these federal funds were eliminated what would happen to local Water and Sewer bills if these critical upgrades were even possible
▶ 1:01:19to carry out with dis minished funding with taxpayers and ratee payers have to to pay more start with Mr hair and then everyone take a turn thank you in a minute thank you thank you for that question uh first off um uh maintaining a a robust annual investment is is very important to to the lumy uh people
▶ 1:01:50uh we we depend on on this and our habitat depends on this this and our salmon and shellfish beds uh depend on it and being a fishing people uh the continued decline of our ability to to fish has a significant impacts to the well-being of our our people as well so uh when we talk about uh these these financial investments and and the um being a a small and and tribal
▶ 1:02:20community and participating in these infrastructure investment programs it can definitely be an issue because it puts us in a place of um trying to to maintain that break even and also not uh try to to raise the the the rates for for our our people that um that are uh uh getting water from our wastewater treatment plant um and we have high rates of of poverty and and and inability to
▶ 1:02:50to practice our treaty reserved rights and and uh there's is just a great need uh for us and and you know it's a it's a tough tough position to be in and as ranky member Larsson mentioned he survived generations of of lumy leadership and if he wants to come back to lumy and tell our elders that we're turning off their water he's more than welcome to to join me um but but right now we're uh uh any way that we can um
▶ 1:03:20do this in a in a pro productive and and affordable way is is probably the most importance to us and I think grants or direct funding would be great ways to do this work thank you thank you Mr Walker yes ma'am thank you so as the chairman mentioned while ago the the cap grants have been static if not dropping because of congressional mandates and and and re marks but meanwhile as y'all know and our other members here the cost have increased dramatically
▶ 1:03:51so I'm thinking that we can continue to lower the cap grants money States into and eventually to the citizens without and meet our needs is we can't do that I mean we've got to at least fund the full appropri authorization not appropriation so thank you Mr Walker Mr chair I'd like to enter into the record two letters uh American rivers and 37 National and state organizations
▶ 1:04:22about future Federal funding so ordered all right the chair now recognizes uh member Bost for five minutes thank you Mr chair you know in February I introduced legislation uh that would actually uh amend the uh Wii wi uh to modernize the program to ensure all projects receive program assistance are met with payment and performance bonding requirements while some projects already have these bonding requirements
▶ 1:04:52newer forms of of project deployment such as public private prop Partnerships uh could leave taxpayers and and funds and payments um to subcontractors at risk having these security pro Protections in place guarantees subcontractors suppliers and workers uh on our nation's infrastructure projects are paid and projects are complete on time and on budget even if the lead contractor has Financial issues
▶ 1:05:22now my my question is to the panel and if you could answer very quickly got a second question I need to get to um it is do you think that all of these projects um meet the if they meet the bonding requirements to protect on-site workers and safeguards and federal tax dollars is that's a good idea in Texas we require bonding of all contractors so yes it's a good idea we' we've had projects that failed and they got to with the bonding they've continued to to
▶ 1:05:53supply the services so yeah I'm not too familiar with uh um this type of program assistance so I would like to yield my time to the other yes sir in the construction industry we're well aware of the bonding abilities and needs of our subcontractors base so yeah we we support Mr Mitch um I I believe that that is an important you know consideration
▶ 1:06:23and um we support that as well I appreciate that uh in Southern Illinois where I'm from many of my local communities have been uh looking for help with water infrastructure projects unfortunately it can be difficult to to assist some constituents who receive their water through privately owned water utility and companies last Congress I introduced legislation uh with my colleague uh from California Mr jerck gundi uh titled the clean
▶ 1:06:54water srf parody act now what this bill would allow is investor to own water Wastewater utilities to apply for lowest loans through the Clean Water State revolving Loan Fund revolving fund just as they are allowed to do Under the drinking water srf importantly our legislation would only allow them to compete for loans with when the state thinks it is is appropriate at the same time it ensures that the benefits
▶ 1:07:24of these loans is only pass directly to our constituents and and rate rate payers Mr Walker the CIFA has has supported this legislation in the past and as I prepared a reintroduce the bill in the 119th contract Congress could you explain the benefits of allowing private Wastewater utilities access to some of these loans you said CA is not opposed to this I mean a lot of a lot of States a lot of their constituents are supplied by these privates
▶ 1:07:54so allowing that we have no problem with that okay do you you currently believe that currently in do you currently uh currently enabling of private Wastewater companies to apply for these loans interest loans has hurt taxpayers who are hard earned dollars uh to the srf by denying access simply because they are they where they live I agree sometimes they don't have a choice of who suppies their services so yes sir all right Mr mitf um can you
▶ 1:08:24please speak about how opening The srf Loan program to private water companies would benefit not only the enduser but also strengthening The Loan program over um um I believe that the um given the significant backlog of infrastructure needs it's critical for there to be a variety of options and opportunities for support to you know Finance
▶ 1:08:54the programs and on the drinking water side having access you to the srf programs I I've observed situations where it's been you know critical to supporting the opportunity for all customers in a state to have access to low income interest financing for their projects and uh I mean I think that there's maybe some additional evaluation that needs to be to be done but but believe that
▶ 1:09:25increasing access to um low interest interest loans for a wider share of the you know the the US population service areas is is important thank you my time has expired and I Y back chair now recognizes the ranking member Mr Larson for five minutes thank you uh thank you Mr chair um chair Hiller in your testimony you talked about the uh I think you mentioned four specific federal agencies that you might have to work with any1 time
▶ 1:09:56uh in order to accomplish a financing package you mentioned IHS you mentioned uh BLM um presumably EPA EPA and a fourth um do you have specific ideas about how to get whether it's those four or any mix of agencies all on the same page to ensure that the bureaucracy that a small water purveyor like yourself or other rural communities uh could could uh
▶ 1:10:27uh changes you could make to make it easier for you all yeah yeah thank you uh there's there's a few things but I I think um ma mainly a streamlining process uh for for water projects and and expand um these these regulatory streamlining efforts that uh cover uh tribal water infrastructure uh projects and uh you know
▶ 1:10:58just like the the state revolving uh fund um you know it took us it as I mentioned took us six years to piece together the the necessary funding from multiple sources you know grants forgivable loans and srf financing but um it helped but but loan-based programs alone are not a practical solution for uh many of us tribes which is why a more direct investment and um other grant opportunities are critical to
▶ 1:11:28the Future water infrastructure projects at at lumy and that's just one example but I think the main overall issue here is all all the different Hoops we have to jump through just to get funding that we need and then the reporting requirements on top of it it's it's very strenuous could you speak a little bit to uh any any tribes uh that you've worked with or come in contact with that say aren't on the Salish sea or aren't on a river or you know somewhere near water
▶ 1:11:58um and the challenges they have um uh with with srf funding or with building appropriate Water and Wastewater infrastructure yeah well just briefly speaking it was already mentioned for a lot of uh water users in in rural communities and and tribes there's no choice I mean there there's no other option and uh that that can a a big hurdle for us we um we're
▶ 1:12:28fortunate that we had tribal leaders of of the past that ensured that we would have our our water rights on reservation and ensure that we had our own infrastructure uh for the the lummy people but uh that's not the case across uh Indian country and so um I I I can't think of any particular tribal Nation but I I I do know it is an issue across the country yeah thanks uh Mr Buckley you mentioned private activity bonds and what we did in transportation can you like could you just
▶ 1:12:58remind us what we did with the road to Bridges highways infrastructure and how that might relate sure so if you look at public private Partnerships that was just mentioned by by member Rost um private private activity bonds allows the Private Industry to come in and participate uh in in rebuilding our our water infrastructure right now there are caps listed on water and wastewater there aren't caps on on roadway and Highway PAB so that you're you're pretty much unlimited so that allows a lot of
▶ 1:13:29the p3s that you've seen circling the Beltway here in DC um that that are all P3 driven um we're looking for that in the water business if if we have a if we have a a hindrance or or the inability for us to get funding through Congress open it up to private just like we have with our transportation system um you caps right now they all vary but it could be three million or five million it's going to be hard to find an investor to come in with three or five million but it'd be a lot easier for an investor to come in with 50 or 100 million
▶ 1:13:59they can see some benefit from their you know from that return um and again what we're talking about is rebuilding a failing a failing infrastructure um so we need we need to open up all Alternatives uh on financing in sources to get this done um clean water is not clean anymore and we need to fix that yeah than um sorry glasses uh manit Mr man um so the the the administration uh and the EPA has
▶ 1:14:29proposed or has said I guess they want a 65% cut in the EPA now if that was across the board in the EPA as opposed to targeted um that would mean really a devastating cut to money available for the srf is that how the is that how the money um to to date I haven't observed any impacts from um from you there only been announced or discussed Congress has a say in
▶ 1:15:00this but it would a 6 what would a 65% cut mean maybe maybe yeah with respect to the chairman for respect to the chairman why don't you answer that question for the record and get that back to us uh and we we'll get you a specific question written so you can get back to specifically on it got it yes thanks a lot appreciate itk thank you Mr chair thank you the chair now recognizes Mr Fong for five minutes uh thank you Mr chair thank you for for having this hearing look forward to working with you um if I could ask
▶ 1:15:30uh Mr Walker and anyone can chime in here but um for us in California we've got large scale water storage projects that we're trying to to get to the Finish Line uh whether it's SC Reservoir St Louis Reservoir the Frank Kern Canal um in your opinion in in terms of of just the the w a loan program now what steps can be taken to make these loans more accessible to large scale water storage projects in California and are there any clarifying or expanding eligibility
▶ 1:16:00um you know rules that we need to examine to um uh to secure we of funding for projects um I don't know I applaud California they're doing some really Innovative work out there and being a Texans it's hard for me to say but you'all done a very good job especially with your direct portable and indirect pable and you know reusing water in a great way um I said I'm not that familiar with whia but if they allow more Innovative projects like that through financing and maybe even more of the total project cost
▶ 1:16:31because with he only allows 49% so that's still a large chunk you've got to find somewhere else and the srfs are geared toward fixing broken systems versus being Innovative and and long-term water system so maybe that's a way to do that okay does anyone have any other I guess advice here or guidance in terms of how we allow whia loans to to be accessible to large scale water storage projects yes sir so um we we have performed some uh State
▶ 1:17:01revolving funds and with work uh in California I think it was the uh Carbon Canyon water recycling facility and yeah again it's it's getting getting the getting the the binds off us when it comes to and the strings attached that are tied to some of the funding um and also in the smaller communities we need to make it a more streamlined process for them easier they don't have the staff and the personnel to do grant writing and things along those lines and it's it's a hindrance to them um and they're the ones that need the water the most
▶ 1:17:31or the funding the most okay I mean that that this may be something that we have to kind of look at uh more intently I think that for us in California we've just got large scale projects that that probably need some clarification in terms of um uh Mr Mr mtic if I could ask you um you you've kind of discussed um you know the the the um you know you mentioned the 35-year terms in as an example of finance a financing advantage
▶ 1:18:01of of of the weld Loan program SE suggested a 55y year uh term uh that would help um you know more communities Access Loan funding um can you describe how extending you know low maturity dates how that would provide greater flexibility for some of these long-term projects um yes Congressman Fong I'm happy to do that the the wh the whia program allows not only a 5-year construction period but then within that 35e repayment period
▶ 1:18:32There's an opportunity to delay repayment for an additional five years um and and so you can have the equivalent of a a 30-year loan but you know 10 years before you have to start paying it back and what that allows communities to do is to ramp up into the rate increases and fee increases that are needed and that provides a tremendously important uh flexibility along with the ability to structure the loan um you know
▶ 1:19:02the the the wifia finance team you know essentially works with the applicants to sculpt The Debt Service in in a manner that meets their needs and that that fits with other debt that they may have if if they're if for example the 51% matching share is coming from revenue bonds and the wifia U repayment can be sculpted to fit around um the revenue Bond repayment thank you and then my last question Mr Buckley um I certainly agree with you many communities
▶ 1:19:33uh U need assistance especially rural communities I've I've got communities in my district that are only that are not only rural but they're also relatively isolated um in in the wiffy re reauthorization act introduced uh late last Congress there was a proposal to lower uh the minimum uh threshold project size under 1 million uh how would lowering this rate to make programs more accessible rural areas allow for greater expansion of the withfield Loan program well I think when you're talking about lowering the rate you're talking about making a project a go or a no go
▶ 1:20:03uh it's going to make it either affordable or not affordable for the utility so um less to payb yeah I I I think it was important in a great way does that make sense yes I uh thank you very much Mr chairman I'll you back thank you the chair now recognizes Miss Gyan for five minutes thank you Mr chairman I am honored to represent the South Shore of Long Island in New York's fourth congressional district my district sadly suffers from Legacy water contamination aging
▶ 1:20:33infrastructure and unacceptable water quality issues that requires the aid of the federal government the village of Hemstead lies in my district and relies on a plant that is more than a hundred years old it's one of the oldest water plants in our region last year Hemstead officials found out that there were alarming levels of toxic carcinogens and pea chem pasas chemicals in their drinking water they called for desperately needed help uh to fund the construction of
▶ 1:21:03a new water system Mr chairman I ask for unanimous consent to enter this may 2024 article titled Hemstead drinking water said to contain high levels of cancer-causing chemicals into the record we so ordered thank you Mr chairman so I ask every member of this committee to look at the amazing women you see right next to me right here this woman Mary Florence pie is a lifelong resident of Hemstead a mother a grandmother and even
▶ 1:21:34a great grandmother and I'm so honored to represent Miss pie in Congress for many years Miss perie noticed that a lot of her neighbors were developing many different kinds of cancer and she noticed that the water that she saw in her home was funny looking and and troubling looking this is a good day of the water that comes into her home she's realized that the cause may be the carcinogens that were in the water
▶ 1:22:04supply in Hemstead as you know peas contain uh carcinogens that cause serious health problems including links to cancer liver damage immune system disorders and my constituents Americans across our country should not be subjected to these cancer causing chemicals in their water supply and every time they turn on the f it in their home so knowledge of these carcinogens in the water activated the activist in Ms pery and she decided that she was
▶ 1:22:34going to do something about it she said she never ever had gone to any government hearing before in her life but she went before the Nassau County Legislature and begged for their help to clean up the water in Hemstead and she said if no one's going to help me I'll do it myself I an old lady and I have no business walking all over the Village of Hemstead but I'll do whatever it takes to make sure the residents here get clean water and so she did she went to barber shops she went to supermarkets she went
▶ 1:23:04to gas stations she recruited friends from her senior citizen club to go walk around the village of Hemstead with her making sure she had someone who was fluent in Spanish so everybody could understand what was going on with the water there and she said no one said no I met Miss Pie when I was at a meet and greet in my district during the summer and she gave me hundreds and hundreds of signatures on a petition that she carried herself a 74 year-old lady asking for help to get clean water
▶ 1:23:34in Hemstead I promised her that if I got to Congress I would Advocate to make sure that every resident of Hemstead and our country has access to clean water it shouldn't matter where you live whether or not you get clean cancer cancer-free water so Mr chairman I'm here today as a member of this sub subcommittee because of Miss Mary pie and every single resident of my district who deserves access to clean water that has been neglected in some way by their government
▶ 1:24:04thanks to the hard work of Miss perie of the village mayor the deputy mayor and the trustees the village of Hemstead received 1.7 million in federal aid to help break ground on a new water treatment facility and received money also from the state of New York to continue building it while this money has been helpful and is critical it does not go far enough the project will cost up to $55 million to complete communities like hemstad need Federal funding so the water
▶ 1:24:34my constituents use to bathe clean and drink is safe the bipartisan infrastructure law included 11.7 billion for the Clean Water State revolving fund including 1 billion specifically dedicated to addressing emerging emerging contaminant like pasas but it's not enough Mr Mantic can can you speak speak briefly to what more we can do to make sure Congress is providing the federal resources directly to communities like Hemstead to upgrade critical water
▶ 1:25:06infrastructure um thank you um congresswoman I appreciate appreciate your your your question um I mean as I've said in my pre-file testimony the existing commitments through the srf programs and and through the um wifia program that especially the bipon infrastructure law the higher levels have been tremendously important but that um as you indicated do not come anywhere
▶ 1:25:36close to fully funding the backlog of of critical infrastructure needs um I know that these programs have bipartisan support because they're critical to um you know customers and and and users of water systems like your your constituent um throughout the entire country and uh um you know in increasing the the level of opportunity for lowest loans
▶ 1:26:07and and where possible some of the you know principle forgiveness funding that that you know that you uh you know referenced I think is are are are critical and increases are every dollar of increase that you know can be you know can be approved is is well spent I would suggest that follow up with a written answer for you so we can we've got a lot of people thank you thank you chairman I yield my time back thank you sir thank you the chair now recognizes the uh Vice chair of the subcommittee Mr Taylor
▶ 1:26:37for five minutes thank you chairman colins and ranking member Wilson for holding this hearing today and thank you to our Witnesses for their testimony and insight I represent a rural District which has a significant amount of Aging water infrastructure most of the cities and towns in my district have water infrastructure that is has well exceeded its intended lifespan which is unacceptable I'm excited to work with members of this committee to ensure our nation's water infrastructure is safe resilient there's often a lengthy backlog of projects awaiting State revolving
▶ 1:27:07fund Awards with some projects taking years to receive funding with aging infrastructure well past its intended lifespan many of these projects cannot last years without incident earlier this year in the town of Waverly Ohio in my district there was a water leak that caused water to be shut off and a oil advisory for over a week and that they had eight different uh water main breaks within a one-year period there disruptions like this shouldn't happen in the United States in 2025 what practices and policies does Congress need to enact
▶ 1:27:37to ensure that water infrastructure nearing the end of its intended lifespan receives funding so Americans have access to safe and healthy water and I'll open that up to whoever wants to jump on it first I'll take the first thing like you said Texas has a lot of rural system just like you do one of the problems with the drinking water srf is that it's geared toward compliance issues not necessarily leaks and breaks which are very important and some so some communities will never get to the top of the list like I said we had $4 billion of Dem demand we had $400 million to deliver
▶ 1:28:08so maybe allowing the states a little more uh leeway in what is more important to them as far as funding so they can concentrate instead of what EPA decides what's more important any anyone with anything to add to that I would just I would just say look at the funding levels look at what clean water is actually receiving compared to other other areas within our TNI Comm uh Community um transportation receives a ton of funding you know Broadband
▶ 1:28:39receives more than water and we sit there while Co taught us we can live without our roadways for a short period of time we can live without Broadband but try living one day without water right good point there have been continuous discussion on whether the Clean Water State revolving fund which provides low interest loans to rural cities for projects should be issued as a Federal grant instead of a federal loan based on my research keeping the state revolving fund uh as a Federal Loan lowers utility bills for customers
▶ 1:29:09and provides additional funding for other water projects across the United States uh Mr Walker can you elaborate on additional benefits of keeping the Clean Water State revolving fund as a low interest interest loan compared to a grant yes sir and in fact that's one of the the beauty of the srf you give me a $50 million Grant and I give away $50 million that's it but I can turn that $50 million into $300 million or $400 million and and it will revolve back and forth by leveraging so that's the that's the beauty of the the subsidized loans are
▶ 1:29:39there any drawbacks to the rural communities themselves if srf projects were awarded as a grant uh most of the time the cost of projects now is so large that there's not enough grant money in the world to deliver all those things and we do a good job of making packages so make it more affordable but and spreading that out is a lot better too um some of the real communities have cannot afford anything unfortunately and so you have to find there is there is a need for loan
▶ 1:30:09grants but as a whole most afford something it's just that they don't want sometimes thank you everyone can agree that many of the procedures and processes the federal government requires when determining Water Project can be uh tiresome often times unnecessary and costly uh these burdensome processes are especially uh hard on Rural America where communities don't have resources to complete the applications even uh Mr matachic in your testimony you mentioned how steps were taken in the
▶ 1:30:39water infrastructure finance and Innovation act that have helped streamline the process are there any other areas in the Clean Water Act specifically wifia that Congress needs to look at to further streamline the process and help deliver these crucial um thank you for that question Congressman uh T Taylor um I mean I I believe that there are um opportunities um to provide technical assistance that can maybe be very useful to some of the rural and
▶ 1:31:09smaller Community applicants um that that that you that you've U referenced um I I I believe in terms of um the the the bureaucratic and application processes that um encouraging more applicants to use that combination of projects where you can roll multiple projects into a single application or the master agreement um where you can have a long-term program um and or on the
▶ 1:31:39srf level could have programmatic Finance where a single application can cover a variety of projects I I believe that that encouraging more use of those mechanisms could be really important in reducing the level of of of um bureaucracy and and application costs thank you very much I yield back chairman thank you the chair now recognizes Miss fredman for minutes thank you chair Collins and ranking member Wilson
▶ 1:32:10um Los Angeles which I represent uh knows the importance of clean water and access to water very intimately every time we're in drought every time we have an allocation in Los Angeles our economy takes a hit our green spaces are impacted and everything from our ability to add the housing that we need to just people's everyday experience in the city is deeply impacted uh I am very concerned about the proposed cuts to the EPA administrator zelden has stated
▶ 1:32:40that he intends to cut the epa's budget by 65% and this is a staggering amount to hit to an agency that's tasked with keeping our water clean and our air clean uh 6 5% budget cut would require major Staffing reductions for key functions including Monitor and air monitoring something that is very important right now in Los Angeles particularly postfire when people are very worried about the safety just to send their kids to school or to drink water in their community and
▶ 1:33:10as much as we all want to cut unnecessary regulations the best way to keep cancer-causing posos out of our water to keep chromium 6 from making parts of our aquafers undrinkable in California is to have strong Environmental Protections so that polluters are not free to pollute um our water and our air um now in California uh these programs have been really critical the Clean Water State revolving fund and wifia um
▶ 1:33:40since 1989 more than 14.6 billion dollar in financial assistance with over 400 unique recipients across the state have been dispersed across California an example of one of these unique recipients was the Burbank Sanitary District in my district which received a $1.8 million loan to repair and replace 14,000 linear feed of outdated sewer Mains and laterals the California State uh water board has co-funded 19 projects with wifia which has delivered
▶ 1:34:10a combined $6.5 billion do in low interest loans to projects across the state now the water departments in my district view the whia programs is absolutely critical to their long-term Financial Health and for their water infrastructure projects you know we're a first world nation and people expect our infrastructure to reflect that uh Pasadena's Water and Power department is currently planning to utilize wifia funding for projects that will help secure reliable and safe water for over 9,000 residents and just to remind you Pasadena was one of the cities
▶ 1:34:41that had awful losses uh due to fire recently so this will help to secure clean water for Pasadena residents and I'll also create about 1,400 local jobs something else that is very important to to my community so I wanted to ask uh some of you some questions about these EPA Cuts so for Mr Buckley uh in 2016 EPA estimates that we're going to need $271 billion to meet Federal water quality objectives and in 2023 this number
▶ 1:35:11jumped to 60 625 billion over 20 years just for the safe drinking just for safe drinking water so despite that this Administration is still proposing a 65% budget cut can you speak to how a cut this extreme are going to impact these projects across the country and also in my district in Los Angeles yeah certainly um it comes down to what I mentioned earlier as far as a a go noo on a project with a utility either they're going to have the money to spend for that repair on that project
▶ 1:35:41or they're not um it comes down to being that simple is the money there or not uh the escalation in prices recently over the past two to four years um we've seen projects where the engineers estimate for the job would be let's just take an example 40 million but when the actual bids come in it's 80 million um the prices are are rising across the board so with Rising prices and then Cuts in Revenue those are just kind of extreme opposites doesn't play well with the uh with us to be able to get the resources
▶ 1:36:11and the Tradesmen and the workers that we need to get a job done nor does it help the utility owners to be able to finance and fund those jobs now these pipes often are underground people don't always see them residents don't understand the importance what happens if these projects don't get done what kind of results can people see that have like we have in my city 100y old pipes underground we're we're we're we're seeing it now congresswoman it's um uh the useful life of useful life of our systems are is done we've been kicking the can down the road for too long
▶ 1:36:41um I'm a I'm a Washingtonian born and raised here representative Norton and um we we've been we've been dealing with these issues here in the in the DC area for years um there just has to be improvements made we we keep we keep you we also mentioned somebody mentioned posos earlier we're talking about new technologies or new issues that we're finding all these budget issues and that we're talking about now this is just to maintain what we currently have not even to address what's coming down the pike right so crucial for human health and of course the longer
▶ 1:37:12you wait to repair these these pipes this all this system the more expensive it gets thanks so much for the answers I yield back thank you the chair now recognizes Mr LFA for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and thank you to panelists you know Miss Freedman was talking about uh the importance of our water supply and you get into Southern Cal and so some of the points I want to make here really underline that as well is we have great opportunity to hold a lot more water in California that we're not doing presently couple angles of being able to build
▶ 1:37:42the sights Reservoir which wiia is going to play into that as well as running the pumps a little more efficiently to fill up S Lou Reservoir we're going to see allocations of 35% the farms in sanen Valley unless unless things improve this year 35% of I don't know what normal is anymore so I mean we got to do better on that we should be filling San Louis Reservoir we should building be building SES Reservoir and managing our water a little more smartly you know Lake Shasta up there has
▶ 1:38:12seen since January 1 a tremendous amount of water just go down the stream and not be picked up somewhere else and we we're working on the numbers I know off top of my head it's at least 800,000 acre feet it might range as much as 2 million acre feet have flown by Mount excuse me Lake Shasta on that Sacramento River CVP project so I want to drill down more on the whiffy loan um process there which uh is is indeed a good one it's been very helpful for
▶ 1:38:42a lot of projects uh chairman haer was talking about the importance of local um uh clean water projects and uh processing plants and that's that plays into this as well with our Bay Delta in that uh if if more plants Around The Bay were putting out cleaner water we wouldn't have nearly as much uh garbage as bad water in the bay Delta which requires so much flushing of good water that could be going to a and people we're going to see 42 gallon per day rationing for some of
▶ 1:39:12our Urban neighbors as the way things are going so Mr matet let me let me drill down on the wiff you with you here a little bit um the SES Reservoir project located in my district and I shared with uh Mr gar meny for a time till the lines change appreciate all his strong help on that uh is a 1 a.
▶ 1:39:30half million acre feet uh proposal that's grinding through the process here it applied for a wifia uh in uh was first invited to in 2021 that application in 2022 and so it's still waiting EPA review and approval so I'm I'm grateful that at least it's in play but uh we need to get moving on this and wiffy is very important because it is a low interest loan the federal government doesn't lose out it's paid back but it also makes things much more affordable for a project and actually
▶ 1:40:00in this case can lower the cost of the water itself the buyers will be using by about 10% just from not having high interest payments so SES is about a $4 billion project and the wifia could amount to about two billion so what I would ask Mr Mich was uh um should the EPA in this process since we're a few years in now provide more flexibility within the Loan program to project related to project schedule flexibility and the
▶ 1:40:30completion dates so we can better accommodate large scale projects in general I know you're not versed on sites per se but large scale projects what do you think we can do to uh make these timelines better and these costs when it takes multiple years to do so so um thank you for the question Congressman I I think that the um master agreement Arrangement that wifia introduced a few years ago is actually ideally suited for the
▶ 1:41:01the program and project that you're that you're talking about the the um actually the very first whiff of loan that was closed under the master agreement was with the Hampton Road Sanitation District in Virginia and that was for more than a billion dollars of was it very Speedy I'm sorry was a Speedy um it it it actually worked through pretty efficiently yeah and and
▶ 1:41:31and they were able to structure it so that they could have separate tranches of loans like three tranches of loans within a 12year construction period And so you can have a 10 or 15year construction period and and have multiple loans within that that are based on the the actual construction period for the individual my time is getting short but uh when you see costs continue to go up during that timeline and interest rates have jumped quite a
▶ 1:42:01bit unfortunately during this period of time that sites has been waiting uh how do we insulate ourselves from from that um should we have there's a lot there's a one-time reset of loan interest rates for example that are allowed um do you see this U that that these costs can come down sometime in the near future and make make keep products affordable well given all the uncertainties about escalation rates and and interest
▶ 1:42:31rates I've I've seen sit situations where the the the wiff um Underwriters and finance staff have encouraged the applicants to include your significant contingency and they welcome inclusion of a significant amount of contingency to you to cover some of those uncertainties especially with to longer term longer term programs okay all right thank you I appreciate my time's already up you back thank you the chair
▶ 1:43:01now recognizes Mr gandi for five minutes thank you uh chairman Collins I think I'm going to have an outof Body Experience here we're going uh on and on here maybe we all fell down the rabbit hole and Up Is Down and Down is up but I think there's something really really important going on that we're pretty much ignoring my colleague U from Los Angeles Miss Freeman mentioned it but the reality is
▶ 1:43:32that the Trump Administration is going to cut the EPA by 65% and they've already made significant Personnel cuts and I'm going how does work all that we're talking about here requires more money and more staff to process the various uh programs that we all want to have so what are we doing why
▶ 1:44:02are we doing this why are we talking about Mr boast and I are proposing an amendment uh and also other amendments on the other side we've heard from our colleagues on the Republican side we're going to improve the wifia program we're going to improve the uh program at the same time that the entire e PA and the core of engineers are going to be facing massive personnel and budget cuts how is this going to work
▶ 1:44:32I suppose we're probably just going to continue plowing ahead and ignoring what is actually happening in real time as we here those cuts are happening Mr musk is out there Wheeling his chainsaw slicing away at everything including including the EPA and the core engineers Personnel Cuts as well as cuts okay I
▶ 1:45:02suppose I had to join the parade here and forget about the reality of what is actually happening at this moment in this reductions in the money available and in the Personnel to process what I would like to see happening got two amendments I'd like to put into W well okay W sometime in the fall maybe we'll get it done by uh September don't know
▶ 1:45:33to what purpose there's no money there's no staff at the EPA the funding for the core of engineers dramatically reduced by nearly $2 billion dollar for programs such as this and dredging and on and on we've got to get real here all all of this ncy legislation and up improvements of which two of them are mine with my Republican colleagues and they're important they're useful they're helpful but the underlying program
▶ 1:46:04is reduced so let's get real here we can fight a fight of really no purpose by amending the current laws wiia as well as the uh core of engineers to what purpose when the entire foundation of the program is being destroyed it seems to me that our task
▶ 1:46:34and our time ought to be spent dealing with the here and now and that's what the Trump Administration is doing actually doing as we sit here dramatically reducing the funding dramatically reducing the staff to process even less programs if we fail to fight the fight on what is happening what the Trump Administration is actually doing all of this nicy talk is to no
▶ 1:47:05purpose because it won't happen it can't happen there's no money there's no staff so my plea to all of us is we've got to deal with the here and now which is the Trump Administration eviscerating the ability of Americans in their communities large and small to address their critical needs in this case how are they going to deal with their sanitation systems how are they going to deal with the clean water and we haven't even begun to talk
▶ 1:47:37about the water programs themselves so that that drinking water is safe and sound we heard a little bit of that a moment ago from my colleague here yeah I'm upset you're damn right I'm upset because what we we've worked on for the last 50 years is being eviscerated it is being terminated in many real ways for communities all across America and here we are talking Amendment here Amendment there Improvement not dealing with
▶ 1:48:07the reality that the Trump Administration is dramatically destroying the ability of American communities to have a clean water program or a clean drinking water program and it goes on and on my time is up I yield back thank you the chair now recognizes Mr not for five minutes thank you Mr chairman in in brief response to what we just heard you know one reality that no one mentions is the fact that we have $37 trillion do in debt
▶ 1:48:37we have $37 trillion in debt and our water infrastructure is crumbling what have we received for 36 trillion doar this is the first Administration that recognizes the existential crisis that is $37 trillion of debt and I am uh candidly astounded that there's not more outrage that every person in the United States does not have the cleanest water in the world after spending $ 37 trillion
▶ 1:49:07dollar that we do not have no one's talking about that and you know my friends from New York and California uh you know there's a lot of discussion that needs to be be had here but I was just just in the State of Florida they have half the budget that New York does they spend far less per person than the state of California does and their water is better across the board no one talks about local regulations no one talks about the cost
▶ 1:49:37on the ground um we candidly cannot afford just to throw dollars and dollars and dollars at every problem we pay a trillion dollars a year just in debt service and that could very well rise exponential so of course clean water is a priority but I think all of us should be outraged that we have spent 37 trillion dollar for nothing not one word about that so far but Mr Walker
▶ 1:50:08in that vein let me ask sir is there a federal program that places conditions on local regulatory environments in terms of how can we most effectively get to these projects to bring about change to bring about proper restoration to bring about modern Technologies because if they if you have the same project in let's say Tallahassee Florida and then a project in California
▶ 1:50:38uh if the project in California is five times as expensive as the same project in Florida are there any conditions in the Federal Financing program that would incentivize California to get their act together and lower the local regulat costs I don't know how you monitor the the states but there is some levels in federal government that are mandates that cost raise costs I mean there's like six seven mandates that really don't add to the
▶ 1:51:08value of water there's the green mandate the fiscal sustainability cost Effectiveness uh Baba all those things that added the cost to any project sometimes 30 40% to a project so that means projects cannot get built they should be um and we we somebody talked about the the posos that's just on top of everything else it's needed right and it's unfair for the utilities that are treating the water now to have to they didn't cause a problem they're in perpetuity will have
▶ 1:51:38to treat that problem forever and so that's going to add to tremendously to their cost what's and in your in your experience sir what's the best way to bring down those costs because these are problems that need to be addressed of course but we have to have a fiscal conscious mindset when we're doing it I don't know how to bring down the cost except to make them more affordable and people have to understand they've got to pay for water and wastewater it's it's not for free right uh I mean we pay more for our cell phone bills than we than we pay for our water bills
▶ 1:52:08we pay more for streaming services than we pay for our water bills you die without in three days without water you don't die without streaming services but people think you do I'll just go down the line with the remainder of my time if you could ask in your in your estimation what's the best way to most efficiently bring down the costs of these problems yes sir yeah I I um well I appreciate the the discussion as well I think this is the discussion that that needs to happen and uh for us the as
▶ 1:52:38mentioned already the the direct funding and a lot of this um uh investment uh Federal investment and state investment is is what allows us to to be able to build this water infrastructure and then make sure that it is at a a cost effective rate for the ones using it Mr chairman Mr not I think mentioned me in his opening remarks would you yield me for 15 seconds let me get these answers and then we can yield Mr Buckley sorry sure bringing down cost
▶ 1:53:09would be cutting regulations red tape y that helps a great deal without a doubt um but what I would like to see from this group is for somebody to pick up the lead again as I mentioned earlier on private activity bonds and let's bring private funding in here if Congress isn't going to be able to provide funding as our as our representative stated just a few minutes ago then let's let Private Industry come in just like Transportation does there's no reason water shouldn't be the same way yep thank you um thank you for the
▶ 1:53:39question I I would add I I think making sure that there's a sound preconstruction process that looks at the make sure that the the the cheapest and most cost efficient alternative is actually the one that's being implemented can go a long way toward helping to reduce costs yes sir thank you all for your testimony I wish I had more time Mr chairman I yield chairman yields gentleman yields uh chair recognizes uh represented figures for five
▶ 1:54:09minutes thank you Mr chair I um I I agree 37 trillion is a problem it's not just that this Administration is the the the first Administration to pay attention to the problem this Administration was part of the problem this Administration the first time around added more money to the national debt than the previous administration and as we sit here now if we were so concerned about the 37 trillion
▶ 1:54:39we wouldn't be pushing forth a budget that's going to add an additional $2 trillion to the national deficit an additional $2 trillion and I am of the opinion that if we're going to go $2 trillion into debt we shouldn't be doing it for the purpose of funding tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans we should be doing it for Vital purposes for critical infrastructure like ensuring that we have clean water Delivery Systems across this country and so if we want to be serious about our national debt and deficits let's have a serious conversation
▶ 1:55:10but let's not pretend to do that let's not pretend to be making cuts at Doge let's not pretend to be saving this nation money while at the same time pushing a budget that's going to add $2 trillion to the National deficit and that ain't Democratic math that is the budget math that the Republicans have produced meanwhile the president is spending $3.5 million per trip to Mar Lago $3.5 million per trip it cost the American taxpayers When
▶ 1:55:40Donald Trump decides to go to Mar Lago and that is not including the money that my colleague spend and going down there with him to have meetings that they could have in Washington DC for free I'd much rather send spend three and half million dollar down to clean water efforts in the State of Florida or more particularly my state the state of Alabama well I represent a district where we have an individual median income of $32,000 a little bit lower than $32,000 some of the poorest communities in this nation seven of the 15 poorest counties
▶ 1:56:11in the state of Alabama are located in my district we have some of the poorest places in this nation in my district and they all suffer from critical water infrastructure not they all but many of them suffer uh from critical water infrastructure problems and so with the balance of my time I'd like to discuss ways that we can help those communities because these are communities that don't have a significant tax base they don't have significant uh cash reserves but they have very significant infrastructure problems Pritchard Alabama a city and Mobile County of less than 20,000 people
▶ 1:56:41they lose an estimated 60% of their clean water from delivery to the time it gets to an enduser we have places that don't have traditional soil um concentrations and they can't even use septic tanks um because the soil does not tolerate for it so for those communities with the balance of my time if we can go down the line what are the changes that we can make to better support those low-income communities those poor places those cities that don't have um you know abundant tax revenues to be able to meet some of the current requirements
▶ 1:57:11uh to receive some of the funding but they still have the need for their critical infrastructure uh systems particularly the water uh systems and sewage systems thank you Mr Walker thanks you sir so one of the things that can be done and we've seen it in Texas allow the states to uh fund more technical assistance I mean a lot of these communities I mean you've got the mayor is also this local businessman you got the City Secretary that's all they've got so they don't know how to and
▶ 1:57:42that's not their their expertise so states are really good at knowing where the issues are and help them and with technical assistance the uh epa's got a big technical assistance program but it's all these big National programs it's fun that money down to the States where they know where the problems are and they can help them at local communities yeah thank you for the question it feels like we've been at a a Tipping Point for quite some time with with this issue and uh I think that's why the bipartisan infrastructure law
▶ 1:58:12is so important that uh we work together and figure out a way to streamline some of these processes one of uh two two things uh for for us we're busting at the seams in our own wastewater treatment plan at at the Lumi nation and same goes for our home and and a lot of people that can't afford this type of um basic human right and uh for us it's more Grant based funding and or expand uh forgivable loan programs for tribes
▶ 1:58:44you so Congressman you you mentioned uh directly what can we do to help get the water funding uh addressed now now um I would say like in the 118th Congress over half of the srf appro Appropriations went to ear marks leaving 39s 39 states with less resources uh Congress needs to reform the earmark process when it comes to water I think that would help a great deal in in redirecting funds directly towards water instead of ear
▶ 1:59:17Mark um Congressman I mean I think that the efforts toward toward you know greater efficiency and and and directing programs you know through the the the the top priorities that are identified you know for the srf and wifia uh programs is an important way to um you know make sure that the most um critical projects do get do get implemented and and um focusing on you know the criteria
▶ 1:59:48that are that are that is used to you know help identify um the projects that that get funded is um you can be used to um make sure that the the most important projects do get built thank you y back chman yields the chair now recognizes Mr honor for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and thank you thanks to all the witnesses for coming today um you know Mr Buckley I believe in response
▶ 2:00:18to a question from representative not you you said that one of the one of the things that that we could do is to condition Federal Aid on removing red tape from water infrastructure projects could you expound on that a little bit well let's go all the way down the line we when we're constructing a project in construction we have a dedicated person that has to track the financing and the billing and all that stuff just associated with srf
▶ 2:00:48funded jobs so that's just on my part then you go up to the water utility managers and how many people and Personnel do they have that have to track and monitor and and track all that funding so I think it's I think it's just a tear step of number of personnel that have to follow through with the the reporting of the red tape right thank you um Mr Walker um you stated that quote you won't die without your cell phone or streaming service have you
▶ 2:01:18met my teenagers I have two just like that so yes sir they think they do okay I just wanted to clarify um in your written testimony on page four you wrote that Congressional mandates on srf loans increase the cost of Clean Water infrastructure which are passed onto households in higher Wastewater bills um you know this is a recurrent theme I think on this committee that we make investments in infrastructure or we try to but then red
▶ 2:01:50regulation uh permitting and so on delays those uh delays or increase the costs of those projects and in your um on the same page you list um you know some of these Congressional mandates Davis bacon um which some have called Jim Crow's Last Stand but American Iron and steel water and energy certification fiscal sustainability plan engineering procurement buy America build America
▶ 2:02:21how can we remove some of this some of this these layers and layers and layers of of congressional mandates that get in the way of meritorious projects well I would say that if Congress put them in Congress can take them out it's kind of like it these were probably good ideas at the time yeah but I mean as a loan officer I'm looking at fysal sustainability I don't need somebody else to tell me what that means and so and these are a death by a thousand bytes you know there're multiple ones
▶ 2:02:52yeah no very yeah I I I agree you know in on the next page of your testimony you you point out you know Green certification um the Clean Water Act requires srf borrowers to certify that they have selected the processes materials techniques and technologies that maximize efficient use water reuse recapturing conservation energy conver and so on and you know and then as you said but you know this is the value of water and
▶ 2:03:22Energy Efficiency you say is firmly instilled across the water sector and will not be eroded if Congressional mandate is sunset yeah this is just part what what PE what what people managing these projects do not wasting water on purpose they're not they're not trying to use too much energy to drive up the cost of water or Wastewater um bills so yeah you car a comment
▶ 2:03:52uh I agree I mean nobody is trying to build an inefficient project because it cost you much more in the long run that it did than you Sav in in the short run so so why so why Force the project managers to jump through and do more permits more reports I wonder where the reports are going do you all get those yeah I've never seen one and and it's and it seems like everything the government does this is this is the theme I serve on the education a Workforce committee
▶ 2:04:23and there we wonder why the expenditures on public education have done this and educational attainment has has is has gone down and a lot of it and and a lot of it by the way what what goes along with costs is the number of non-teacher non-principal bureaucrats and that's to comply with Federal mandates my my wife was a teacher for 31 years so she's well aware of all the reports she had do one of reason she decided to retire
▶ 2:04:53because it became more paperwork than teaching well right and and and by the way the uh the salaries of teachers have have gone up very modestly the number of teachers has gone up about 8% over the last 20 years student about 8% administrators non-principal administrators have gone up 88% so that is where the money is going and that's where our good teachers are going they're leaving the profession because they're uh frustrated and I I I fear that probably the same thing happens with some people getting frustrated trying
▶ 2:05:23to put together water projects okay thank you so much for your testimony I yield back thank you Mr honor you know uh I was always taught at an early age the road to the poor house was paved with good intentions which is a lot of those mandates that you're talking about the uh the chair now elds five minutes to uh Miss Norton thank you Mr chairman um Mr Buckley I am deeply concerned uh about cuts
▶ 2:05:53to Federal water uh Federal funding for drinking water and infrastructure what are the harms to Public Health and local economies of Cuts that's that's a that's a great question um I don't think we have the time to go into all of them um directly we're looking at you know 6 billion gallons of treated water being wasted every hour
▶ 2:06:24um as far as a local economy is concerned um fewer projects means few fewer fewer jobs for for our for our employees uh work that we have to go elsewhere to find uh outside of our communities um so the the less the less there is for us to repair I should say the less funding there is that supports the work for us to repair uh the less work there is for us to be able to get to get accomplished so um on industrial basis U one thing that
▶ 2:06:54we we keep forgetting about is our industry is utilizing more Industries are utilizing more and more water um on a daily basis I mean data centers are a perfect example and uh with with this region being the the largest area of data centers um the amount of water that's use with data centers takes away from the water that's needed for drinking um not that that's a bad thing just another thing that we have to look at and and keep in mind so did I answer your question or I think
▶ 2:07:25so um Mr hir the proposed full year resolution being voted on later today cuts the US Army Corps of Engineers construction projects by 1.4 billion with a B dollars the Army Corps plays a crucial role in designing and constructing Water Resources development projects
▶ 2:07:55often in in partnership with project sponsors what are the immediate and long-term implications of programs such as the cores water front infrastructure financing program a federal funding for the Army cores cut yeah thank you for that question the um implications for for us at lumination uh we we have our own water andwer district
▶ 2:08:25our own water and sewer board our own Wastewater uh treatment plants serving 6,000 people on reservation and and just over half are lummy members and the other are non lummy members so we serve everyone and so um the impacts come down to uh just the the public health and safety of our residents on reservation uh but also for our salmon and our shellfish beds everything that we rely on as a people our culture and and the sacredness
▶ 2:08:56of water as well and as well as our economy I don't know the the facts of of any of these uh potential Cuts but anything that cuts any cuts that would uh impact our ability to practice our way of life is is really important to us thank you thank you and I yield back the gentleman lady yields back and I next
▶ 2:09:26recognize the gentleman from Colorado Mr herd thank you very much Mr chairman I want to thank uh chairman Collins and ranking member Wilson for holding this important Hearing in western and southern Colorado small towns lack the in-house engineers and legal teams uh that they need to navigate complex Federal compliance rules as you mentioned uh in your testimony Mr Walker a one-size fits-all congressional mandate particularly burdens
▶ 2:09:56rural communities and I'm concerned that some of these critical water infrastructure projects are not able to be completed because they simply these communities simply can't afford to navigate the compliance process uh Mr Walker some of these mandates you mentioned in your testimony do not apply equally across States for example I understand that Colorado is one of the states whose srf must comply with the sustainability Asset Management plan mandate can you discuss
▶ 2:10:27the asymmetrical application of some of these Federal requirements and how they impact the effectiveness of srf programs and maybe provide some specific recommendations on reducing those barriers whether by streamlining requirements or creating more flexible Pathways for small rural communities the one that comes to mind is the engineering requirement that was put in about two or three years ago Most states follow have engineering procurement requirements but the federal government put a a different one on there
▶ 2:10:57so that state it's it's conflict with States sometimes now and so it's really difficult for them may have an engineer that worked for them for 20 years but now they can't use them anymore because of the federal mandate so it's not it's really causing problems within the states so that's one of the things that's not across the board it causes problems across the board for different states great thank you very much Mr Walker Mr Buckley um as you know other infrastructure projects are directly affected by water infrastructure
▶ 2:11:28uh for example water mains are commonly laid under ra roadways which can cause disruptions when those those waterways those pipelines are in need of repairs from a contractor's perspective can you talk about what specific legislative or funding mechanisms could encourage States and localities to better align infrastructure projects and prevent those kinds of inefficiency how about talking to each other states and localities need to be talking to each other a little bit more how that
▶ 2:11:58is addressed ferally I'm not quite sure um can you give an example of where that takes place and it's working effectively I'm sorry could you repeat that can you yeah can you give an example of where that talking is taking place and where those entities are communicating in a way that leads to more effective yeah absolutely there there are a lot of utility um utilities out there that actually have direct um conversations on a regular basis with do um you're talking about roadway transportation and and how you know
▶ 2:12:28repairing a certain part part of an infrastructure is going to affect all the utilities that are in the ground um but then there are moratoriums that are put on when you can go back in and repair those utilities later on so if a roadway comes through and is rehabilitated um it might take five 10 years before the local jurisdiction allows that roadway to be torn up again there now what's going on is those water lines are leaking the sewer lines are leaking the storms you know is eroding um so I think collaboration between those those
▶ 2:12:58those groups is imperative but when it comes from the federal side I'm not really sure how that how that would work okay thank you for that um Mr Walker back to you one frustration I've heard from Rural Water providers in my district is that Federal F funds tend to flow toward Metro areas while small towns and Rural communities get left behind um wiia loans are great for large scale projects but small communities often can't get access to the system what changes to
▶ 2:13:29srf and wiia funding could help ensure that Rural Water Systems not just large Urban projects get the financial support they need so for the record over 55% of the number of loans srf done over the years go to small communities so that's a really good thing I don't think wiia is geared towards all communities I don't think I think it's better better to put more funding into the cap grants where the states can we're used to dealing with small communities
▶ 2:13:59instead of trying to change with you to make fit small communities do you see it as a feature not a bug it's a feature for it's a feature like I said it's only part of the pro the funding too so even they got more whiffy funding they still have to find other funding to match that so I think it's better just get more money to the cap grants instead of trying to makeit with you fit the small communities thank you very much Mr Walker for that U Mr chairman I yield the remainder of my time back the gentleman yields back
▶ 2:14:29the chair NE next recognizes the gentleman from Missouri Burleson thank you Mr chairman um Mr Walker in your testimony you highlighted that the Clean Water State revolving fund achieves results because the programs are run by the state and not by the federal bureaucracy can you shed some light on how that's important and why that matters because the states know what they need
▶ 2:14:59the states are we talk to those people I know those people on the ground and I know what they need I know how can we can work their make a package that works for them instead of a mandate I mean EPA manages the whia program EPA is not a bank so the states are the banks and we know the programs we know the projects we've been dealing with this the srf for 30 years and so we know what's needed how to run the programs and be most efficient in fact uh the states
▶ 2:15:29are very frugal with their usage 4% overhead is all they're charging on all these these grants that's a pretty it's pretty good compared to some of the things we've heard from other grantees and how much they charge overhead so the states are very frugal so would you agree with me that by the federal government giving this authority to the states to make the decisions we're we're actually getting the best bang for a buck absolutely the I mean it's pretty efficient if
▶ 2:15:59you look at this the amount of grants that go to the States and how much they've leveraged that and delivered the funds versus you know small small grants through EPA it's a one-time deal it doesn't revolve it's not as efficient and also Mr Walker in your testimony you said that the mandates the Congressional mandates on the clean water State revolving fund loans um no matter how well intended as was it was mentioned the P the road to
▶ 2:16:29hell I I believe is the reference I've heard is paved on good intentions but they increase the cost of Clean Water infrastructure um which can directly be applied to a you know citizens and their utility bills U Can you provide an example of how our mandates um have increase the costs that ultimately increase the costs for consumers especially for small communities they don't have the people to do the reporting
▶ 2:17:00you know write the reports they're relying on Engineers to do that so they have to charge those Engineers have to charge for that that adds to the cost of the whole fund whole project but it doesn't add to the pipe on the ground it takes away from the pipe need in the ground or the uh treatment systems things like that these are costs that the engineers have to charge to do that that don't go into fixing the system itself um Mr Buckley in your testimony you emphasized that the projects in your IND that your industry
▶ 2:17:30undertakes are not small Endeavors but ones that cost millions of dollars and require multiple layers of of bureaucracies to have to coordinate um can you expand on that the the the difficulty it is to have to deal with the federal government the state the local government whenever you're dealing with a problem project so a lot of it is thank you so a lot of that is flow down so what what is required at the top flows down to the person all the or the firm all the way at the
▶ 2:18:00bottom so whether it's uh Baba or AIS um any of the any of the requirements whether it's someone mentioned Davis bacon and all those all those add up into time um and resources and having someone handle track it follow report it and and uh and send that up and that's on a monthly basis that's nothing that just happens at the end of the job or at the beginning of the job it's it's on a it's on a constant stream so it's constant use of resources
▶ 2:18:31um also in your testimony you highlight that the when Congress creates earmarks that it often diverts funds away from things that the state revolving fund believes is a core Mission um and so they're being prioritized by whatever is politically popular um can you expand on that impact it's a tough one
▶ 2:19:01and I I can I can I'll rely to some of my experts behind me to get some perfect examples but realistically it goes back to what Mr Walker said earlier um the states and in this level the the municipalities and the utilities they know what's best for what they need and when a project is not because of another e mar specific project that need to be done that project doesn't have the funding anymore and that's earlier when I mentioned we're kicking the can down the road on our on our
▶ 2:19:31on our system on our pipes on our treatment plants it's exactly it's exactly what we're talking about we're taking money away from a project that needs to be done and giving it to something that doesn't necessarily have to be done thank you Mr Beckley thank you Mr chairman I yield back the gentleman yields back the chair next recognizes the gentleman from Texas Dr Babin thank you Mr chairman I appreciate it I want to thank all your Witnesses uh for being here today uh and for your testimony it's a pleasure to be
▶ 2:20:01back in this hearing room doing important work for the American people I represent the 36 congressional district in the state of Texas uh water infrastructure is very important to our folks our industry especially in East Texas my district includes Houston all the way over to Louisiana the projects funded under State Revol in fund make genuine impacts in my local communities uh Mr walker uh appreciate you being here there's been pressure particularly during the
▶ 2:20:31Biden Administration for more Federal control over water infrastructure financing programs do you feel that Federal bureaucrats based in Washington DC know more about Texas water needs than the local municipalities and Texas state government that's kind of a slam dunk sir that's a one word answer I mean yes sir how many how many people in in DC even know where Newton is or where bont is they may know where bont is because where all the gas comes from right but
▶ 2:21:01uh no the people on the ground in Texas know what the need what's needed in Texas amen thank you very much bu's my hometown it's where I grew up uh I just had folks in my office just five minutes ago talking about water issues in Texas uh and also uh for the second question there there was a large scale Push by the Biden Administration to Institute grants for higher amounts of funding essentially turning the Loan program into a grants program how has this affected the overall
▶ 2:21:32health of the srf with it's decreased our value it's decreased our ability to leverage like I said I can take $50 million and turn it into $300 million whereas it's a $50 million Grant as a one-time deal and it goes and the cost of projects these days it's do go very far I mean Port Arthur is doing a huge uh wastewater treatment plant it's more than $50 million I mean it would help them but I can help them plus I can help Bowmont plus I can help everybody else in your district with
▶ 2:22:02by be able to leverage that fund yes sir and and has this change made srf funding more or less targeted to local needs less targeted yes um specifically for that in the individual needs of that geographical area bont Newton whatever I don't know if May targeted but I mean with with the Congressional ear marks the average earmark in Texas about $2 million that doesn't go
▶ 2:22:32very far anywhere and they got to find the rest of that so taking that $2 million away from my srfs that I could leverage to $50 million yeah thought really hurt the srfs okay thank you and then uh Mr M maich Mr maich yes sir in your testimony um you noted U that uh more than 60% of agreements awarded through the Clean Water srf program have gone to communities with 10,000 people
▶ 2:23:02or less and so I'm I'm not going to ask you this but I'm going to ask Mr Walker can you discuss the benefits and challenges smaller communities experience when accessing financing through cleanwater srf and wifia programs particularly in States like Texas I'm asking you Mr Walker yes sir sorry thank you for your testimony though no small communities do have a hard time accessing us why we have a technical assistance program in
▶ 2:23:32Texas to help these communities get to where they need to be uh unfortunately a lot of communities they know grants available if they are they'll let things go until they don't do it and then it becomes even more expensive so it's kind of a a dichotomy of problems if you give to many Grant out they get used to those and they don't want to pay the price of what they really need to do right it's a challenge okay and thank you and thank you for your service to our state I'll yield back Mr
▶ 2:24:02chairman the gentleman yields back the chair would next recognize the gentleman from Arkansas Mr Westerman thank you Mr chairman thank you to the witnesses for being here today also want to thank chairman Collins for having uh a hearing on this important issue the water infrastructure finance and Innovation actor wiia and the Clean Water State revolving fund are especially important to rural districts like mine across Rural America water infrastructure is aging far beyond
▶ 2:24:33its useful life and large areas with sparse population leave communities with few solutions that are financially viable funding through wiffy and the Clean Water srf program provide these communities with much needed Solutions when we find them I think we should Pro uh support programs like these revolving funds that provide a critical need for communities and create a continuous cycle of investment and again especially in our more underserved communities
▶ 2:25:03so with all that being said Mr Walker you talked about the value of these that these programs provide to rural communities uh this isn't necessarily an issue that grabs headlines but I see the quality of life issues that come with underperforming Wastewater systems do you talk about those quality of life issues and tell us some ways you've seen these programs solve those for communities I mean for a small community if you don't have water you're not going to get Economic Development people are going to move away just destroy the community
▶ 2:25:34Arkansas has done a really good job the central Arkansas water and wastewater district has done a good job of regionalizing and using the srf funds to do this to reach out to these small because it's a lot cheaper for to Ser for one person or one operator to serve four or five it is for each person to have their own operator so regionalization is really beneficial especially if for small communities and Rural communities um and the srfs are a way to regionalize and take the
▶ 2:26:04burden off some these small communities when you say regionalized how large of areas have you seen quote regionalized where you and do they always interconnect the water systems or is it just a management regionalization I've seen both there's a big there's a big in Florida it's more of a management regionalization and it works very well government utility but I also seen like in central Arkansas where they reach out and actually take in the communities also in North Carolina they've done the same thing they reach out and taking these small communities
▶ 2:26:34that were small and Rural and now they're having a lot of growth not they're not ready for that and so running a Wastewater and water system is not as easy as it used to be with all the different regulations all the chemicals all the requirements it's very difficult for small communities to run water and Waste Systems now and I know a lot of these when I think of the small communities in my district they've been dealing with a lot of these Wastewater issues for years and really the clean water srf
▶ 2:27:04is one of the only viable solutions that these uh have um do do you think there's ways we can improve that and maybe leverage it more in the future because I think you're correct on the regionalization uh you've some of these communities even if you uh if you built this if you paid for the capital cost up front and they didn't have to amortize that over their water rates over a period of time some of these Comm
▶ 2:27:35communities still may not be able to generate enough income just to pay for the ongoing maintenance no it is it is a challenge um I think one of the ways we can help leverage that is to help these communities uh where they need to be in Texas I mean I've worked for with some communities they come into us for a a project and we may have to work with them for two years to get them where they need to be you know sometimes they think we can't afford it and then you go work with them say well here's your bill here's your here's what you're spending on operations and maintenance if
▶ 2:28:05you do this project that on andm cost will come down and that that's something they don't really can do by themselves so allowing the states more money and more time to work with these communities to get them to where they need to be and maybe even funding some of those Eon those technical assistance programs at the state level will go a long way to reach to reaching these small communities and getting their systems they need all right thank you very much I'll yield back the gentleman yields back
▶ 2:28:36well thank you the um are there further questions from any members of the subcommittee who have not been recognized uh seeing none that concludes our hearing for today I would like to thank all of the witnesses who came here to testify um it was very enlightening testimony the subcommittee stands