▶ 0:13:58e e
▶ 0:14:46we will start here in just a minute Mr infu is on his way and I have chosen to wait for the ranking member and so we'll get that started as soon as he walks in
▶ 0:16:27e e
▶ 0:17:20good morning the subcommittee on government operations will come to order and I want to welcome everyone to this what I think is going to be an important by partisan uh hearing today without objection the chair May declare recess at any time and I recognized myself for making an opening statement to our witnesses that are here today into the people who have taken time to come here uh to see today as well as
▶ 0:17:50my colleagues I want to uh really dispense with my opening statement and without objection I'll enter that into the record record but what I'd like to say is is that this is a followup to the meetings which we have held for the last few years where there was active discussion not just about what we were going to do to recognize what might be considered waste fraud or abuse or money that was spent uh by the federal
▶ 0:18:21government that did not equal that which it was intended to do which kept money away P from the real real recipients and for people who would have benefited with intent as you will recall last year we held what was uh a meeting in October whereby we had GAO and others who came to speak with us and they came up with a what might be
▶ 0:18:51a three-year number of their ideas about inappropriate payments then waste fraud and use but things that were paid that we felt like were not permissible or following the intent of the law or the needs of the money mru and I at that time looked at each other and said we are going to work together we are going to challenge GAO to come back to us we are
▶ 0:19:21going to find within the government other particular people who have talent data information and can lead us to a better solution I'm pleased to say Mr infu I believe this is the beginning of that turning the corner to where we will then not just work together but try and discover the things that reside within the government to gain the information that is necessary and I think today's
▶ 0:19:52hearing will prove that in so I'm delighted that you are here I'm going to put my opening statement of the record but that is what I want to say this is about identifying preventing fraud improper payments in federal programs and we're going to learn today how we're better prepared if we work together if we find a way and I think we will not just to work together but to use the
▶ 0:20:22important elements of this government for data information and Lessons Learned and I would uh say thank you for being here distinguished gentlemen wish to have time for an opening statement I I do gentlemen's recognized I do Mr chairman thank you very much uh good morning to you good morning to our Witnesses who are here um and I want to just personally thank chairman sessions for the manner in which we continue to meet each other halfway uh even though we're on different sides of the aisle to come
▶ 0:20:52together to find a way at least to uh release the federal government of some of his ailments particularly this whole notion of improper payments waste Fraud and Abuse uh we did that throughout the8th Congress and my colleagues and I on this subcommittee all remain uh laser focused on combating those matters um and I think we also have always agreed that this is a nonpartisan matter no matter where we are in our country or
▶ 0:21:22philosophically uh we agree that every dollar directed to every program ought to go to the intent purpose uh from the very beginning of uh This president's term the so-called Department of government efficiency and some of you know that I referred to it as the department of government evil for my own particular purposes because of the way it's affected working men and working women in their families across this country I think uh hardworking dedicated men and women exist in every
▶ 0:21:52congressional district throughout the country and while there is still no full complete public account on all of them who have been dismissed other than numbers we don't know the names and the faces and the families and the children and the mortgages and everything else that's been disrupted by this um I have got no doubt that among the hundreds of thousands of federal employees affected by the fork in the road email and the mass firings of probationary staff uh that many many
▶ 0:22:23are experienced in the pain that we do not feel right now and that's not to even mentioned as I'm sure the chairman would would mention also uh the 18 inspector generals that have been dismissed they were like the sheriffs uh that were running the town and doing a damn good job at it and Reporting back to this committee and both to Chairman sessions and myself on Real Clear ways of trying to move us forward deliberately and focused and uh I commend their work
▶ 0:22:53I look forward hopefully to the return of some of them and I know that their role uh cannot be understated um we're already in a situation where 10 of 24 agencies subject to the payment Integrity Information Act were not fully compliant uh with improper payment reporting requirements as of 2022 it is the furthest thing from common sense in my opinion uh to fire the inspector generals uh who have a real
▶ 0:23:24set of experience and a body of experience addressing this problem as Witnesses have discussed in many of our previous hearings on this issue particularly last September combating fraud improper payments uh abuse is not as simple as waving a magic wand or a chainsaw real progress relies on access to Quality data it means thoughtful partnership with agency leaders and it means investments into the technology and
▶ 0:23:54the staff needed to create proper internal controls to prevent improper payments and fraud uh I was proud to join with many of my colleagues on the oversight Committee in introducing recently the taxpayer funds oversight and accountability act which in many respects would make important strides in addressing these challenges um simply put I think we have a real challenge before us um not to mention the fact that sometimes we're not focusing
▶ 0:24:24on some of the real issues I would call everyone's attention to the fact that the largest um agency with the largest budget is still the Pentagon and we have witnessed seven straight audits that have failed uh because of problems at the Pentagon I don't know how you can fail seven straight Audits and not become the focus of waste Fraud and Abuse that's another story perhaps for another
▶ 0:24:55time but it is something that continues to cry out for very real attention uh the GAO reported recently a total of 162 billion in improper payments in government-wide matters in fiscal 24 and that marks a significant reduction I'm it's almost embarrassing to say that that's a significant reduction from the 236 billion in improper payments in fiscal 2023 in recognition of the shared challenge
▶ 0:25:25uh chairman sessions and I on a bipartisan way worked to discover real Pathways to reducing fraud and to reducing improper payments this past October both he and I sent a joint letter to the GAO requesting that they review as was mentioned earlier $2.7 trillion and improper payments and fraud that have occurred since 2003 and provide actionable recommendations before this committee uh so as I conclude I must mention
▶ 0:25:55the importance of staying grounded in the scope uh and the breadth and the depth of this problem while improper payments and some fraud exists that does not mean that the Bedrock of social safety net programs like Medicaid Medicare and Social Security should be cut or privatized the existence of these problems does not justify in any way Mass firings of workers um failures to pay nonprofit organizations it does not justify
▶ 0:26:26uh the fact that the government owes for work done in so many instances and that the effort really uh is moving to destroy many of the federal agencies as we come to know them even despite the claims that Social Security is rif with fraud and um fraudulent payments uh due to quote long dead individuals who are about 133 years of age that program has a payment accuracy rate of over 90% And that's according to the Center for Budget
▶ 0:26:56priorities so as we move forward as together hopefully with our own differences of opinion but in an effort to move forward together to combat waste Fraud and Abuse as we know it and as we are defining it I hope that uh we as a congress will remember that the purpose of this weighty task is not to exploit these problems or to destroy the federal government in the process but to work for a better country and to do that as the
▶ 0:27:27chairman has said hand inand working together uh despite our differences to come up with a consensus that's what we really want consensus approaches uh that are not on the extreme left or the extreme right but in the Middle where most people are and in the Middle where the problems are so that we can deal with this issue in a very responsible sort of way and to be able to report back to the American people that we really have made an impact in dealing with the issues of waste Fraud
▶ 0:27:57and Abuse again I cannot say enough about the chairman session's work in this regard and this committee's work we didn't get a lot of attention but we were in the Forefront for the last two or three years so it's good to know now that uh people are paying attention we just have to make sure that we are doing this the right way and in a way that is responsible uh thank you Mr chairman and I would yield back I appreciate the gentleman's dialogue I want to say that maybe 10% or more I think more of the American
▶ 0:28:27people want expect and need us to work together and you have my promise that it will continue to be done and we will work together I you have a strong voice you have a strong idea what you're after but what we're dealing with here is something that must be overtaken we have to win on this and it will be a bipartisan effort and I think the two w the three witnesses that we have today
▶ 0:28:58are shining examples that can lead the way not to partisanship but the answers and I think that's what we seek I want to thank your conversation today uh and I think that we'll see that also sir thank you uh I want to request unanimous consent that the gentleman Mr moscowitz from Florida be waved on today's hearing for the purpose of asking questions that objection uh so ordered okay we're now going to get to the
▶ 0:29:28uh big deal and the big deal is our Witnesses uh who take seriously not only that effort that you and I and this subcommittee share but also ideas and answers uh leading us to that I'd first like to introduce uh Kristen Kil leik serves as the managing director financial management Assurance team at the GAO in her role she over Rees issues
▶ 0:29:59involving accountability professionalism auditing standards and do financial management and improper payments please know that you are being heard uh as well as your party when there are conversations about DOD next we have Mr debach uh Ken was appointed to the pandemic response accountability Committee in June of 2024 he brings over 28 years of experience in the oversight Community has
▶ 0:30:29served in various roles related to investigation and data analytics uh we also have Jennifer Wagner she joined the center for budget and policy priorities in 2015 she focuses primarily on meta Cade eligibility and enrollment issues which certainly highlight some of the discussions that the American people want us to delve into I'm delighted that all three of these Witnesses here I would now
▶ 0:30:59ask that all the witnesses rise pursuant to committee rule 9g the witnesses will stand as required raise their right hand do you solemly swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the TR truth so help you God if the records show that the witnesses answered an infirmity thank you very much you may now take a seat uh I tried to keep my comments uh short Mr INF May did the same but
▶ 0:31:29we speak from one voice we are both delighted that you're here today so let me remind the witnesses that we have your written statements and I would encourage each of the the uh staff and the uh members who are here to look through this uh if they have not up to now data and information about actual data and actual Solutions is what today's hearing is going to be about so uh I want to First
▶ 0:31:59make sure that we go right to this I'll let everybody turn to their uh information that they've got there uh Mr M Key Co key leak I didn't get it right yesterday and I'm not going to get it right today please correct me co-select co- select uh Bill had me say co-select five times yesterday that was not today we're delighted that you're here please know this that we traditionally will follow the 5 minutes rule as we always have
▶ 0:32:30but I think that as we go through there if you want to finish questions or or the statements you want to make but as we get into questioning I'm very interested in both sides the members and our our Witnesses getting to where they want to get and without uh further uh uh discussion we will recognize Miss klit thank you good morning chairman sessions ranking members and fum and members of the subcommittee
▶ 0:33:00thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss the long-standing and pervasive issue of improper payments and fraud in the federal government whether it involves an established program or one created to respond to an emergency improper payments and fraud erode the public trust in government and result in hundreds of billions of dollars lost improper payments and fraud are two distinct Concepts they're related but not interchangeable simply put improper payments or payment errors payments
▶ 0:33:31that should not have been made or payments that were made in the incorrect amount these could be overpayments underpayments or payments to ineligible recipients fraud involves obtaining something of value through willful misrepresentation individuals or organizations deliberately lying to defraud the federal government while all fraudulent payments are considered improper not all improper payments are considered fraud that's right since 2003 federal agencies have made an estimated
▶ 0:34:01$2.8 trillion in improper payments including an estimated $162 billion in fiscal year 2024 since these year-to-year estimates are based on a subset of government programs 68 programs in 2024 the actual improper payments amount may be significantly higher last April we estimated that Based on data from fiscal years 2018 to 2022 the federal government annually lost between 233 and $531
▶ 0:34:31billion or about 3 to 7% of federal spending to fraud our fraud estimate includes all federal programs and the wide range reflects the different risk environments During the fiveyear period including normal operations and covid-19 relief programs and spending fraud at this level indicates the importance of fraud risk management however most government spending is not fraudulent while while my written statement more fully covers gao's wide body of work in these areas
▶ 0:35:02I will focus this morning on how agencies and the Congress can work to better prevent improper payments and fraud the best way to reduce improper or fraudulent payments is to not make them preventive controls as their name implies are meant to stop improper and fraudulent payments before they occur one key government-wide preventive control is the use of Treasury do not pay system do not pay consolidates much of the data matching agencies have done individually
▶ 0:35:32to flag potentially improper or fraudulent payments federal agencies and some State programs can and should leverage do not pay to ensure Integrity another important action agencies can take is to assign assign responsibility for tackling improper payments and fraud to senior level officials this helps establish accountability and endows those officials with the the authority to lead and make change in our March 2022 testimony
▶ 0:36:03before the senate committee on homeland security and governmental Affairs we recommended 10 actions that Congress could take to increase accountability over improper proper payments and fraud across the federal government as of today these recommendations to Congress unaddressed to improve transparency and accountability over fraud management we recommended that Congress reinstate the requirement that agents report on their antifraud controls and fraud risk management efforts in their annual
▶ 0:36:33reports and to better prepare for future emergencies such as hurricanes wildfires or pandemics we recommended that Congress require om to provide guidance for agencies to proactively develop internal control plans that will be ready for use in future crises and require agencies to report these plans to om and Congress finally to facilitate data access and data sharing which is key to effective prevention we recommended that Congress consider amending
▶ 0:37:03the Social Security Act to explicitly allow the Social Security Administration to share its full death data with treasury's do not pay system in December 20120 Congress passed legislation requiring the Social Security Administration to share its full death data with treasury do notay system for a three-year pilot period this requirement is set to expire in December 2026 and we think Congress should make it permanent earlier this year treasury reported
▶ 0:37:33that data sharing during the pilot had led to $31 million in improper payments prevented and recovered over its first five months and the Pilot's projected net benefit is over $215 million for the full three years Congress can make an immediate impact by ensuring the D not pay system continues to have access to the Social Security administration's full death continued congressional oversight is critical to ensuring that agencies address improper payments and fraud
▶ 0:38:03in their programs along with the actions detailed in my written statement Congress can use a variety of tools such as hearings and the Appropriations authorization and oversight processes to incentivize agencies to improve program Integrity this concludes my opening statement and I will be happy to answer questions thank you very much uh the uh distinguished gentleman Mr de B you're recognized thank you chair sessions ranking member in fum
▶ 0:38:34members of the subcommittee it is an honor to be here today to talk about the critically important topic of preventing fraud in programs this subcommittee has been at the Forefront of bipartisan efforts to find solutions to reduce fraud and other types of improper payments today's hearing comes at a critical time because unless Congress takes action one of the most significant tools it has created to improve program Integrity will will be lost as the executive director of the pandemic response accountability committee or pra
▶ 0:39:04an entity Congress created almost five years ago to oversee $5 trillion do in relief funding I can point to Untold examples where frauders stole hundreds of billions of dollars from taxpayers and the intended beneficiaries of these programs as a federal law enforcement officer who has spent over 28 years bringing to Justice fraudsters who stole from federal programs I know firsthand that unless we invest in Cross agency prevention and enhanced data sharing we will continue
▶ 0:39:34to be victimized by increasingly sophisticated and well-resourced Bad actors pay and Chase is not the solution prevention is to be clear agencies have the primary responsibility to prevent fraud but the pra and the oags also play an important role since its formation in 2020 the cack has time and again alerted federal agencies Congress and the American public to the lessons learned from the pandemic and our recommendations
▶ 0:40:05to help strengthen Federal programs for example we issued a fraud alert on the use of suspicious Social Security numbers in obtaining over 5.4 billion doll in SBA relief programs we have not only identified potential fraud but we are also actively working to recover stolen funds we are partnering with 48 federal law enforcement a agencies to support over a th investigations related to over $2.4 billion in potential losses
▶ 0:40:35as we will discuss today the time to prepare for the next disaster is now not when new funds start flowing we must act on these Lessons Learned for example we must address obvious anomalies such as Social Security numbers that have never been issued or were issued to people who are deceased dates of birth indicating applicant is 10 or 110 years old applicants who have already applied in five other states or applicants who use names
▶ 0:41:06like Charlie Chaplain Abraham Lincoln or fog horn Leghorn as at least three people did in pandemic programs those three were stopped before the money was dispersed let me assure you the government must pause and more closely review suspect claims before money is dispersed we must look across multiple programs for red flags as protesters do not follow our government organizational charts they steal from wherever it is easiest to steal we must also
▶ 0:41:36responsibly leverage more data especially data already in the possession of the government to identify suspicious patterns and Trends indicative of fraud schemes today the pra has the capacity infrastructure relationships and talent to conduct pre-award vetting and the more complex Network and Trend analysis we know from our work that frauders can apply to all 50 states and territories from behind One keyboard they can hit multiple Federal programs using the same false information they can Outsource these tasks to artificial intelligence
▶ 0:42:07Bots but the PRACK is scheduled to sunset in September of 2025 and we are only two months away from having to begin deleting our data that we have collected and curated over the last 5 years this includes over 60 major data sources in some 1.7 billion data points we are also concerned about losing more of our staff whose outstanding analytical expertise is in great demand we will soon reach the point of no return in which rebuilding this capacity would take several months if not years and a significant new investment
▶ 0:42:37of taxpayer dollars the US general accountability office has expressed strong support for the pra and estimated our analytics capability could result in an annual Financial benefit of a billion dollars or more a year if the pra ceases operations in September the next time the government responds to a natural disaster and economic crisis or another event where we are quickly dispersing benefits to people in need frauders will again swoop in and steal we will then inevitably ask ourselves how
▶ 0:43:07did we lose so much money to fraud if this happens it will be because we chose not to be prepared and we chose not to invest in fraud prevention and increased data sharing instead we should continue the investment that Congress has made to the PRACK in the PRACK which is pro which has a proven track record and a demonstrated return on investment American taxpayers deserve nothing less I look forward to your questions thank you very much for the audience
▶ 0:43:37that may be watching that is the pandemic response accountability committee that was referred to as pra thank you very much Miss Wagner you're recognized chairman sessions ranking member and fum and members of the government operations subcommittee I am honored to be here today to discuss something I have spent over 20 years working on improving government systems to get the right benefits to eligible people in a streamlined and accurate way I started my career as a food stamp caseworker in North Carolina
▶ 0:44:08and then worked for the Illinois Department of Human Services before joining cbpp I'm going to focus today on Medicaid and snap specifically on three key points first Medicaid and snap have a rigorous eligibility verification process and the vast majority of people are eligible for the benefits they receive mistakes are made but most improper payments are paperwork issues not fraud second running an accurate program means making sure eligible people can get
▶ 0:44:38and keep benefits when we talk about program integrity and accuracy we need to talk about how adding red tape can harm eligible families and third there are effective ways to reduce improper payments and improve program Integrity but some of the solutions proposed don't match the problems they don't solve improper payments and will increase errors let's dig in first nearly all of the people enrolled in snap and Medicaid are eligible for their benefits applicants
▶ 0:45:08fill out complex forms with details about their household expenses and income agencies verify that information against federal state and Commercial databases if the application and database don't match the applicant must send verification like a pay stub improper payments are not the same as fraud and are primarily caused by paperwork errors for example a Medicaid worker might check a database to verify an applicant's eligibility but not capture and retain
▶ 0:45:38the data viewed in that moment when a reviewer comes and looks at that case months later they can't confirm the case is correct because they can't see what the worker looked at when the case was improved was approved there's no indication that the applicant isn't eligible but since the paperwork is missing it's considered in improper payment this is a technical problem not a fraud problem second it is important to acknowledge one shortcoming of improper payment measures they only consider those who receive benefits
▶ 0:46:09they don't consider those who are eligible but couldn't enroll due to confusing notices or agency mistakes we must keep this in mind when in when evaluating solutions to improper payments which brings me to my third Point many proposed Solutions don't match the problems and won't reduce from proper payments or improve accuracy for example requiring Medicaid renewals every 6 months instead of every year will cause more problems than it solves more paperwork will lead eligible
▶ 0:46:39enroles to miss out on benefits for procedural reasons not because they don't qualify for the program but because they don't receive or return a notice or the agency doesn't process that paperwork timely and more work for already overwhelmed State staff will lead to more mistakes and more improper payments so what would work the government accountability office identified two strategies that have been successful in reducing improper payments establishing accountability and facilitating internal collaboration
▶ 0:47:10and providing technology tools and training targeted to root causes federal agencies overseeing snap and Medicaid need sufficient staff in key roles to make this happen such as inspector's General to audit eligibility determinations and staff to provide technical assistance and hold States accountable for fixing the issues that are discovered in audits we saw this approach work federal agencies recently helped States better implement the requirement to conduct expart renewals which happen when data sources
▶ 0:47:40confirm ongoing eligibility and enrollees don't have to fill out complex paperwork to renew the United States Digital Services worked with States and more than 5 million people were renewed for coverage with less red tape last year another solution is the Medicaid eligibility enrollment rule finalized in April of 2024 which updates outdated regulations on case record maintenance and will substantially reduce the frequency of improper payments re resulting from inadequate records
▶ 0:48:10it's not an easy task to address improper payments in large programs serving millions of people proposals that suggest billions of dollars can easily be saved don't address improper payments and would result in cutting eligible people off from vital help but embracing Solutions that match the actual problems can bring us closer to the goal of getting the right benefits to eligible people in a streamlined and accurate way thank you for the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your
▶ 0:48:42questions thank you very much uh Mr mum you heard me say that I felt like our Witnesses all were not only vital to our decision making but have appeared in a way to give us answers to these problems uh thank you very much I want to thank each of our Witnesses I'm first going to go to the distinguished gentlewoman from North Carolina chairwoman Virginia Fox gent woman's recognized thank you Mr chairman and I thank our Witnesses for
▶ 0:49:12being here today Miss KC the payment Integrity Information Act codified the do not pay initiative which provides agencies with access to certain databases that can assist in preventing improper payments and requires a review of the available databases prior to the release of funds despite this requirement it is unclear that agencies are utilizing the do not pay system for example the Department of Transportation
▶ 0:49:43Inspector General reported in November 2023 that the agency did not use the do not pay portal in prepayment processes as the law requires in your opinion why do agencies not use all the tools at their disposal to prevent improper payments and do you believe that there are ways to improve the do not pay system thank you yes I think
▶ 0:50:13there are ways to improve the do not pay system as I mentioned um making sure that full death Master file is in there and that all um relevant data sources are in there is is key to making sure that that um source of information is as complete and reliable as it can be a way that you to encourage agencies to use it is really to think about how um you would do reporting I think right now
▶ 0:50:43agencies kind of report on the back end of um what went wrong thinking about how you would have agencies report about preventing so for instance the do not pay system and Treasury payment Integrity tools can flag payments um that potentially would have indicators that they may be improper however as noted it really is up to the agencies to make decisions about whether a payment will be made you could consider having agencies report on
▶ 0:51:13when those flags are not um upheld for example if something is flagged and do not pay but a payment is made anyway having agencies track that identify that and report back when that is happening would help folks determine if there there are instances where the payment should go ahead anyway or if truly that payment should have stopped um let me follow up um with uh another question for you and
▶ 0:51:43Mr dein Buck once an improper payment is made what can an agency do to recover the payment and how much does it cost in human hours and dollars to recoup and proper payment first you miss Kosik sure um there are requirements for agencies to attempt to recover improper payments and I believe it's up to the agencies to determine when it's cost beneficial to do so um so there
▶ 0:52:14can be instances where an agency May determine it is not cost-beneficial to pursue all avenues in recovering that you would hope that agencies would but I think it's left to their determination to determine when it's cost beneficial thank you for the question congresswoman agencies have a number of options for trying to recover improper payments there are administrative possibilities the options the Congress did just pass the administrative false claims act in December which is a significant new tool for agencies
▶ 0:52:44and oags to work with jointly that allows agencies to go through a very uh rigorous process where they can then recover funds and uh damages in some instances but to your point recovering funds through through the judicial system the pay and chase model we have now is exorbitantly expensive which is why we and others in this hearing are focused on the prevention piece because it is very expensive to do any of those recovery actions so what investments could agencies take to prevent improper payments could investments in
▶ 0:53:14artificial intelligence help lower the improper payment rate what again what we want to do is not have the payment go out to begin with by using what's available to the agent IES now so I'll start with you Mr D Buck yes so technology is part of the solution another piece of it is culture is ownership and the Inspector General Act was passed in 1978 to create this community of Watchdogs to prevent fraud however before 1978 and today
▶ 0:53:44the agencies have the primary responsibility to do those things to Resource things properly to exploit technology as you just mentioned and to ensure that they're uh doing good risk assessments and they're following through on those to make sure they're mitigating the biggest risks in their programs M kosc any further comments yeah so as as I mentioned prevention is really the key in this and having the right data so artificial intelligence can be helpful if you have
▶ 0:54:14the right data in the system so we do have recommendations to encourage agencies to collect all the necessary information that is needed um to ensure the databases are complete that they're accurate um if you're using artificial intelligence and other data Min mining tools but you have inacurate or unreliable data in the systems that is not going to be very helpful thank you Mr chairman i y back thank you very much J woman youpor
▶ 0:54:45time Mr infu gentleman's recognized thank you again Mr chairman I'm got a couple of quick questions I know we're a smaller committee and I'm hoping that we might even get a second round I and I want to obviously defer to both of the members here on my side of the aisle I do want to be redundant maybe deliberately redundant about a few things number one I appreciated the testimony that nearly all medicar and snap recipients are
▶ 0:55:15eligible for benefits uh which would explode the myth that's been circulating that people are getting things that are not eligible uh I want to underscore again what I heard was that uh most improper payments are due to paperwork paperwork errors and not necessarily conniving persons trying to find a way to get a a check however what I think I want to stop on more than anything else is the notion that was just annunciated
▶ 0:55:45that we've got to stop it before it starts and Mr Defan Baka I appreciate your comments that we can't play the game of uh pay and Chase that will go on forever deplete resources and frustrate everybody um I do want to ask if the 10 ready um recommendations that you presented in your Senate testimony can be made available I don't know that I have them but I I'd like very much to see them and uh one
▶ 0:56:15overarching question and then I'm I'm going to get out of the way and yield to some of my colleagues Mr chairman um can all of you individually or collectively give me your assessment of what has happened and what will happen now that all these inspector generals are no longer in place to do the good job that they were doing to point out the crooks and the bad guys and follow up with bodies like this both in the House and Senate that would allow us the ability to do what we've been able to
▶ 0:56:45do in a bipartison way I just I need I know I think what the effect is but I need to hear it from the three of you any of you sure I can start um so certainly the inspector's General play a key oversight role they have responsibilities related to improper payments um beyond that they do audits of the programs day in and day out and can be very helpful in identifying some of the root causes that may lead to improper payments in the
▶ 0:57:16programs and then also um they are really helpful in coming up with Solutions once they identify those um root caus is identifying recommendations that the agencies can take so certainly the lack of their um lack of their presence in some of the agencies um would have a significant impact on and in many of the agencies and I'm I'm just trying to figure out now that they're gone what do we do I mean what's what are agencies
▶ 0:57:46faced with and is there a greater um propensity for the kind of Fraud and Abuse that we've seen so Congressman of f the the loss of the Inspector General was a great loss on a leadership level on on a productivity level uh our vice chair of the pra Paul Martin was the usaid Inspector General who's dismissed and we we greatly miss his leadership I think the biggest thing for the Congress is you're going to have less transparency less visibility on what's actually occurring in agencies because that's one of the the Hallmark
▶ 0:58:17principles when Congress set up the Inspector General Act was to give you and the taxpaying public uh more visibility and transparency on an objective view of what exactly is going on so I think you're going to have reduced visibility Wagner and just to add an example to what my colleagues have said here um the HHS oig is really important in supporting and funding State Medicaid fraud control units that investigate and prosecute Medicaid provider fraud as I indicated beneficiary fraud is very low in this Pro these programs um but provider fraud is
▶ 0:58:47common um in FY 23 these units recovered $1.2 billion in criminal penalties and civil judgments um and also the IGS and HHS would in uh audit eligibility determination Pro uh processes and they were very effective in identifying major issues in states such as duplicate payments to Managed Care organizations inter incorrect interpretations of federal policy and casew worker errors so identifying these problems and working with them working with the states to get them addressed is really a key role
▶ 0:59:17that um is diminished right now yeah I think it would be fair to say that uh their dismissal has clearly exacerbated a problem that is clearly out of control now Mr chairman I you back thank you very much Mr chairman let me ask a question real quick procedural question one moment please sir thank you very much does gentlemen uh have a question well no I just um I was wondering if I could yield Mr maumi a minute of my time I was enjoying his line of questioning as as soon as we get to you
▶ 0:59:48I bet he will take that and even more I just want to make sure I didn't I'm sorry yes sir as the gentleman does the chairman wants us to get to the bottom of this and I do not intend to cut us off as long as we're stay in in the margins I think we're better off I think we're better off when someone like you does yield time to learn more about what's on someone else's mind thank you very much I've now moved toiz no you're great you're great I'm just saying I do want
▶ 1:00:18to when we get to you the uh gentleman chairman Palmer is recognized thank Mr chairman um Kosik uh in 2002 Congress passed the improper payments Information Act in 2010 Congress passed the improper payments elimination and Recovery Act in 2012 Congress passed two more bills the improper payments elimination recovery Improvement Act and the improper payments transparency act yet
▶ 1:00:49uh GAO uh said that the federal government's losing between 233 to 521 billion per year if you just split the difference that's $377 billion over a 10 year 10year window that's 3.7 trillion not counting the interest that we're having to pay and in regard to um um the uh inspector generals uh it sounds like we're not going to miss Inspector General I I
▶ 1:01:19don't mean to be dismissive of that I I have great high regard for the inspector generals but in terms of actually lowering our improper payment rate uh we it it keeps going up year after year how do you explain that oh sorry I'm looking at the wrong person I can't I need to sit up straight so I can see the names wor okay go ahead I think we really need to get back to basics and having
▶ 1:01:49internal control in payment processes as you noted there's been numerous amounts of legislation adding on requirements reporting improper payments but we really need to get back to the fundamentals of having internal controls in payment processes understanding what the root causes are for the improper payments going out and focusing on on that requiring agencies to report their plans for prevention
▶ 1:02:19to you and having accountability for having those prevention plans in place isn't the problem though um the here the failure to have enforcement in any of these bills there I've been working on it since I've been in Congress I believe I might have been the first one to to get the budget committee to to really take into account in proper payments been working with with Mr dodero this whole time on it and it it's it's not getting better as a matter of fact there's in in fiscal
▶ 1:02:49year 24 There are 16 agencies that reported a total of about $162 billion in improper payments and when you when you dig down into it about 54 55% of the improper payment problem is Administrative ER failure to verify eligibility and Antiquated Data Systems which brings me to Mr musk and I know there's a lot of consternation about what they're doing but literally he's brought in some some computer experts
▶ 1:03:19with 21st century technology and done better oversight of of the federal government in the last six weeks and we've done the last 40 years I mean isn't that one of the biggest problems we have with improper payments is we've got Antiquated Data Systems we don't we don't have the 21st century technology we need to do oversight proper oversight having reliable data is is very important having accurate reliable complete data in the systems to be able to do those Integrity checks is
▶ 1:03:50is critical yes well after we did pass the improper payments elimination recovery Improvement Act know of one outside company that was brought in that did some analysis of of Labor uh Department of Labor contracts and found millions of dollars in fraud uh under overpayments uh other uh monies that should have come back to the federal government through credits that were not recovered and and um when this was disclosed the Department of Labor at that time
▶ 1:04:20basically waved off as disinterested isn't that a problem the pan chase model is a problem trying to recover the payments after the fact is much less effective that um so what we need to do is focus on um stopping it on the front end and that's where where we need the improvements in technology where we need the investment and technology and U this is a huge issue when when you're reporting 16 agencies
▶ 1:04:50are accounting for 162 billion 10year window that's 1.6 trillion do uh and we're running a deficit of over two trillion every year if if you just look at the the totality of it 3.77 uh 377 billion that's 3.77 tril not counting the interest we're paying on on that money because every dollar we send out in properly is a borrowed dollar Mr chairman are you back his time thank you very much distinguish
▶ 1:05:21gentoman from Washington DC is recognized thank you Mr chairman uh for days just days after he took office the president Trump summarily fired 17 inspectors General across 18 positions in the dead of the night inspectors generals fulfill a vital oversight and accountability function in the
▶ 1:05:51government including through identifying and preventing improper payments IGS are also responsible for keeping uh Congress informed of Fraud and other serious problems and informing us about progress in implementing Solutions as we consider uh uh uh as we consider ways to attack the problem of improper payments it is critical that
▶ 1:06:21we do not undermine these officials who serve as our partners in this fight Miss Wagner I am aware that much of your work has focused on the challenges that states may have in complying with complex requirements for federal payments pro programs how do inspectors General help to identify and address these problems inspectors General
▶ 1:06:51play a critical role in auditing State operations um states are trying to run accurate program but they have many pressures on them and they sometimes make mistakes in their policy and their operations and their systems and audits through inspector's General and others come in and identify these mistakes and lift them up and hold the state accountable for addressing these so it's really a critical role when we're looking to improve improper payments and to get benefits to eligible people thank you uh uh Miss co co
▶ 1:07:21coect how does the firing of inspector Inspector General affect Inspector General Offices ability to prevent and address improper payments the the role the Inspector General plays is critical um one of the other things they're they're often the first line of defense in investigating allegations of Fraud and improper payments so without having you know
▶ 1:07:52strong Inspector General presence in there that can that can certainly be um an impediment they're also an objective voice in identifying problems and doing investigations um so certainly having a very strong Inspector General role is critical inspectors General um are rigorous e evidence-based uh use rigorous evidence-based approaches to Target fraud this important
▶ 1:08:22this is important because a reckless approach to fighting fraud risks collateral damage it could keep General uh federal assistance from uh from from going to those who most uh are in need of it uh gao's fraud risk management framework notes that agencies should consider the cost of fraud uh
▶ 1:08:53controls when designing systems including potential delays for a legitimate applicants Miss co uh how does the work of inspectors General ensure that people get the benefit for which they are eligible certainly the the role they play in in doing the various program audits so certainly they have a role in improper payments
▶ 1:09:23but they also as I mentioned you know program audits throughout throughout the year looking at the operations of the various programs are they being um executed efficiently and effectively um to make sure that the proper recipients are receiving the benefits that they are to uh Mr Deen Buck uh the inspector's General serving on the pandemic response accountability committee have done great
▶ 1:09:53work in identif buying improper payments uh throughout our pandemic response what has been the impact of President Trump's Purge of so many General uh been on the committee's work and capacity going forward well we have lost again the leadership the institutional knowledge of individual inspectors generals but the offices of inspectors General still
▶ 1:10:23exist and are fully functioning we work with them day in day out on investigations uh and we are of course an independent committee within the oversight Community the pra that does operational data analytics uh literally every day to support investigations to proactively find problems and to issue reports on Lessons Learned and preventative measures that agencies can follow going forward uh so we are continuing to do our important work uh to support the IGS and to be a centralized uh Hub if you will for uh
▶ 1:10:54analytics uh to support the ogs that are smaller that don't have their own capabilities thank you and I yield back thank you very much uh distinguished gentl women we're delighted that you're here and as you have proved in your service we all want to as well Mr infu and your side want to stop improper payments and move to the areas that they would be needed uh we now would move to distinguished gentleman Mr Gil from Texas
▶ 1:11:24you're thank you Mr chairman thanks for holding this hearing today uh Miss Miss coel thank thank you for being here as well um could could you remind us in fiscal 2024 um what was the the amount of improper payments that were sent out uh $62 billion okay and and which agencies were the were primarily responsible for that um some of the programs
▶ 1:11:54that had the largest dollar amounts were uh Medicare Medicaid um earned income tax credit or some of the larger ones M and and how much do you guys at at the GAO estimate we lose in fraud every year we did uh a fraud estimate for looking at data for years 2018 through 2022 and we came up with an estimate of 230 to 250 billion in in what agencies do you primarily see fraud
▶ 1:12:25that esate was based across all programs okay got it so if I'm and let's just use a a specific example if I'm a a fraudster and I want to collect unemployment checks that that I shouldn't be receiving and I steal somebody else's um identity to do that and I apply and apply to the Department of Labor what are the processes that that you would expect to see the Department of Labor go through to ensure that I don't improperly or fraudulently rece keep a
▶ 1:12:55check so unemployment insurance is an interesting one it's a federal state partnership program so there are responsibilities at the federal level and at the state level as I mentioned really having those preventative controls in place doing those data matching checks are some of the the key controls that you could expect to see to have an entity have in place and in this case you need to have those types of controls in place at the state and at the federal level what what do we actually see on a on a on a realistic basis basis how
▶ 1:13:25how often are some of these checks actually applied we have seen instances and had recommendations for um unemployment I believe where there could be additional use by the states of some of those um data checks and I believe we have some recommendations that there could be requirements to have the states um be required to do that data match now it's encouraged but there we have found instances where in all cases that is not being done and that can be a root cause of some of these improper payments
▶ 1:13:56so so in other words we're we're mailing out checks without verifying who they're going to in some cases got it and and what are the consequences for agency heads is they're mailing out American taxpayer dollars without without verifying who they're going to the consequence is that the anytime there's improper payments or fraud or money going out for not the intended purpose that's money that could be going to rightful recipients and used for other purposes right but I mean from from an incentive
▶ 1:14:26standpoint at at on the agency level is there any consequence for for either employees at the agency or agency heads for mailing out checks fraudulently one of the things we have recommended is having an accountable official but I mean right now as opposed to the recommendations right now are there is there anything to hold these people accountable agencies are supposed to have an accountable official to to oversee this but we but but what what is the accountability structure
▶ 1:14:57you said do they do they receive few less bonuses for instance are they fired what what is the what's holding them accountable I think that is determined by the agency as to how that mechanism is is 100% set up but certainly Congress can have accountability mechanism what do you see do you see have you ever seen an agency head get fired for instance for mailing out billions of dollars in fraudulent checks I have not seen that got it okay and once we once we mail these check out um is there any way of
▶ 1:15:27of clawing this money back and and holding the fraudsters accountable that's what you're saying the pay and chase model is is not generally effective there are requirements that anytime there is an payment agencies are supposed to attempt to get that money back um but we have found that the percentage that you get back when you're when you're following that model as opposed to not having to go out preventing it is is by far much more effective right right completely agreed I it it seems to me that we've got a
▶ 1:15:57an overextended bureaucratic administrative Leviathan that is mailing out American taxpayer dollars fraudulently with virtually no no accountability at all um bankrupting the American people with impunity and this is from a federal government that ostensibly works in the interests of American citizens is instead wasting our taxpayer dollars on a on a a scale that is difficult to Fathom I think this is precisely
▶ 1:16:28why we need Doge so badly to get this nonsense under control and with that Mr chairman I yield back and thank you very much appreciate the uh gentleman's questions the distinguished gentleman from Washington Miss Randall recognized thank you so much Mr chair and thank you as well to our Witnesses for taking the time to be here today and share your expertise um you know I've been pretty open about sharing
▶ 1:16:58my sister Olivia's story she was born with really complex disabilities and was able to receive the care she needed because of Medicaid and she was one of an estimated 2.4 million washingtonians enrolled in apple Health our State Medicaid Program and so ensuring that we are protecting that program is is very important to me um not just personally but on behalf of all my constituents and I I think I
▶ 1:17:28um the goals of so many of my colleagues here to ensure that we are um using taxpayer dollars efficiently to provide essential services to our neighbors who need them but what we may have some disagreement on is how to make the federal government and our programs work better for the American people um you know I I my colleague talked about fraudsters
▶ 1:17:58and certainly there is some fraud in some of our programs some improper payments um but I think what we also have to underscore is the individual people that are trying to access these programs and we had a subcommittee hearing on Healthcare and financial services a week or two ago and which we collectively bipartisanly discussed and understood
▶ 1:18:29the barriers that exist for many families trying to access Medicaid including and especially those married couples that have a hard time getting the health care that they need to be successful um but I want to reiterate the difference between fraud and people perpetuating fraud and the improper payments and Miss Wagner Could you um read is it true that the vast majority of IM of improper payments are
▶ 1:18:59paperwork issues not fraud yes that is correct it's usually a mistake in the process when you talk about a program like Medicaid um it could be an mean an eligibility worker didn't follow correct procedures or um the participant was issued the wrong amount of benefits but it's often an error an inadvertent error by the household or a mistake by the agency staff or system the incidence of fraud which is intentional deceit to gain a benefit uh the incident of beneficiary fraud is very low in these programs yeah thank you
▶ 1:19:29um you know I experienced in my family and heard so many anecdotes from uh washingtonians particularly parents of severely disabled children who have this like stack of paperwork on their counters who feel like they need to be attorneys in order to access a system to provide health care for their kids and who are overwhelmed Med so often with late nights little sleep worry about
▶ 1:20:00what um you know new medication their kids need to be on what specialist appointment they need to get into who spend so many hours on the phone appealing denials of claims um trying to get into an appointment with someone trying to get answers for their kid and take care of them while many of them also have another day job this you know to characterize these parents as fraudsters or to try and lump in um you know individuals
▶ 1:20:30who are just trying to stay alive in so many cases feels really um challenging to me and you know I talked to the healthcare Authority in Washington our um agency responsible for administrating Medicaid and because of um Washington's fraud abuse detection system which I supported funding for as a member of the state senate they have uncovered 35 to 40 credible allegations of fraud that's 35
▶ 1:21:00to 40 out of 20 million claims that they receive a year and to do that math for us it's 0.2% of fraudulent claims and you know none of us are claiming that no fraud exists but I think we need to keep in mind the scale of the problem here and who is perpetrating um the incorrect payments um I also want to raise one thing that the
▶ 1:21:30healthcare Authority suggested might be helpful as we talk about efficiencies in government and they said that there is a a federal system to which they as states don't have immediate access to understand whether folks are concurrently enrolled in Medicaid programs from one state to the other um I know I know there is uh we will have in the next couple of years some changes to that database to monitor when someone
▶ 1:22:01moves and changes their address but it doesn't allow agencies like the healthcare Authority in Washington to track whether there's concurrent enrollment and that would be something that I'd love the chance to work on with my colleagues and I yield my time Jim woman yields backer time thank you very much we' moved to distinguished gentleman from Tennessee Mr burett thank thank you Mr chairman um and thank you ma'am for sharing that story about your sister I did not know that that gave me a lot to think
▶ 1:22:31about um Miss kosi is that correct did I get that close you got quasi mumi and Tim burett up here we can't nobody gets our names right and I probably didn't get his name right so um let me ask you a question man if I can see through this big head of hair right here in front of me um what what are some of the key issues that prevented these agencies from prioritizing prevention of improper payments and fraud and I I wish you also talk a little bit about um just
▶ 1:23:01human error how that plays into this yeah so there certainly can be human error and I just want to clarify the fraud to be sure fraud is a big problem um the fraud numbers that we estimated over those years was about 3 to 7% of um of the funding um but to be sure as we noted you know any amount of fraud is is money not going to the intended purpose so um some of
▶ 1:23:31the key issues I think that prevent folks from being able to effectively um put the right controls in place does have to do with some data sharing some access um having truly understanding the eligibility requirements the um data attributes that should be checked and then having that right information to be able to do that checking to make sure that the payments are valid going to the right person
▶ 1:24:02um is really what's critical and can be some of the key challenges and issues that agencies face the agencies in 2024 fiscal year 24 24 they collectively estimated approximately 161.5 billion in improper payments do you think Congress can can get to the point where we can that I think the goal is to reduce that you'll probably never get rid of the risk of fraud it's innate in all programs but there should be a concerted effort to have that
▶ 1:24:32as low as possible and and have the right preventative controls in place to not leave so much money on the table to that I guess in this case it's the original sin so to speak yeah um H how many agencies and programs are using the gao's fraud risk now and why aren't they using it the ones that aren't just you know I don't know if we know the the the true reason why not all of them are using it we do um certainly have a recommendation to
▶ 1:25:02Congress to um require agencies to use that we think it's a critical um and and they're currently not required they're not required to follow that not specifically okay thank you um what do what can we do to enable that these agencies recover over payments or are they just gone I always hear people say oh we're going to claw that back I was in the legislature in Tennessee for 16 years and I never saw I mean it's hook or crook you
▶ 1:25:32know it's a bogus Corporation or something got money somehow or some criminal and they're in jail they're not paying it back they're getting 20 20 cents an hour stamping out plates and that's the challenge in many cases um it's not easy to get that money back okay thank you I need and I want to yield the rest of my time to my dear friend Mr maumi if that's all right thank you Mr chairman well I want to thank the uh gentleman for yielding
▶ 1:26:03um totally unnecessary but you're not making any points calling me a gentleman you know that Mr Berard and myself were like a guitar and a fiddle we both have strings but we make different sounds and uh we've worked together whenever we can usually we're 100% on different sides of the aisle but at moments like this on something like this I appreciate the gentleman for yielding appreciate his sense of humor um and the ability to work with him I do want to just go to
▶ 1:26:33two quick things that I heard that I don't want to um have fall to the Wayside and uh get out of the way for the other members particularly Mr frost on our side and whoever Mr chairman you have next coming up um Mr Palmer made a good point and I'm really sadden that he's not here because he talked about this whole enforcement mechanism and whether or not there is any enforcement mechanism and without an enforcement me mechanism how can you expect agencies or agency
▶ 1:27:03heads to do anything at all if we're not going to enforce uh existing law or practice and uh the other interesting thing was Mr Gil who mentioned consequences to agency heads which I think is something that we ought to talk about particularly the flip side of that which is in incentives to agency heads and I don't know if we are providing them right now so if I'm running agency a b or c uh I see a
▶ 1:27:34problem and I work my tail off to get it fixed so that improper payments are not going out seems to me there ought to be some incentive there for agency heads to do that and there ought to be a hammer on the other side for agency heads who fail to do it at all uh so I just wanted to go back to both of those points I want to thank uh the the gentleman I'll call them gentleman again from Tennessee Mr burett for yielding this time and I yield back Mr chair Mr bur yields back his time thank you for
▶ 1:28:04the distinguished gentleman uh we'd now recognize distinguished gentleman from Georgia Mr Jack thank you very much Mr chairman and um first and foremost if I could follow on that effective line of of of statement from Mr mafume and that potential line of questioning I was also uh inspired by Mr Palmer's statements as as relates to enforcement if I could just go down the the line what say you about enhancing the enforcement capability um whether through legislative action or executive
▶ 1:28:35action yeah so I think if holding people accountable is critical um for doing anything but in this case particularly um certainly I think agencies should have accountable officials and hold those people accountable and like I mentioned Congress can have an accountability role to um through the Appropriations process through rep having um agencies and and officials report um on their preventative um controls
▶ 1:29:05that they're putting in place to hold them accountable and demonstrate how they are doing that thank you Mr dabach thank you for the question so we spent the last five years at the pra uh developing and learning uh lessons learn uh we put out a program for blueprint for program Integrity uh so agencies need to to operate aize that and follow that uh we have perfected ways to find simple frauds and more complex frauds so I think one of the answers is they need to have the tools to be able to detect uh again the simple uh non-eligibility
▶ 1:29:35issues but also the more complex hidden criminal Enterprise sometimes international criminal Enterprises which we've done a good job I think a phenomenal job of of finding new ways to do that with big data wonderful Miss Wagner the key to preventing improper payments reducing fraud is information and technical assistance to the States states are trying to run a good program they don't want headlines they don't want their their money going to the wrong people and so by supporting them in these efforts with funds with Federal support we can go much further uh penalizing them massive cuts to these programs
▶ 1:30:06will actually go against this purpose and will lead to increased iner payments thank you all um just for in closing I a lot of my colleagues have asked very effective questions today but uh I love history and I would love if I could uh Miss KC I think in we've we understand since 200 4 2003 we've seen 2.8 trillion in improper payments I think that's from GAO is that correct and would you say has there been an influx in recent years uh if you were to try to catalog yearby year I mean it's trying to understand
▶ 1:30:36the history of of uh of how this ramped up and you know is this something that was happening the 40s 50s 60s have you seen it just really Skyrocket as government's grown and government programs have grown would love for you to just offer some thoughts on the history of how we got here yeah I think certainly some of the challenges and and as we mentioned the importance of having really foundational good internal controls is critical so that over the years as emergencies are going to arise you have
▶ 1:31:06those foundational controls in place you have plans and controls ready to go I think you know as agencies and the government is forced to function in um Dynamic ways if you don't have those foundations in place that's when I think you see that fluctuation and that just exacerbates the problem problem and Sir if you want to comment on the history of how we got here please the threat is always evolving the friction for getting public benefits is gone anyone with a computer anywhere in the world can apply for public benefits
▶ 1:31:36some of those programs have a lot of Protections in place as we found in the pandemic through our work many did not so it really takes uh a big data approach using all the tools available to find the hidden connections that you can't find manually uh we're working on uh we're aware of 142,000 known pandemic fraud cases and they have a fingerprint and we've been able to figure out that fingerprint and our hope is to be able to continue our work to help people proactively uh defend against these things and prevent them early because you cannot fight today's fraud issues
▶ 1:32:06with yesterday's tools wonderful Miss Wagner um so Medicaid and snap are a little bit different than some of the other programs that are more recent or were really ramped up during the pandemic um they have a long history of working to reduce improper payments they were challenged during the pandemic by some new programs by increased demand and by reduced Staffing um so now we really need to kind of look at the other side of that and stabilize the work force improve the it systems to continue reducing those rates well I'd like to thank all
▶ 1:32:36three of the witnesses for appearing before us today I want to thank the chairman for calling this hearing and with that I yield my remainder 30 seconds to the chairman thank you appreciate the distinguished gentleman and welcome him not just to the subcommittee but really to congress with an eye towards uh as a new member as well as some other people including Mr Frost Mr MOS making sure that their words that they say back home are met
▶ 1:33:07with the reality of other senior members working with you to achieve those things and I think that that's the sense that I get that it's a 100% Buy in that we have about the problem Mr infu are want to come to a 100% working towards that answer and I want to thank the distinguished gentleman thank you Mr chairman this seems gentlemen uh from Florida is recognized
▶ 1:33:37and good to see you Mr Frost thank you thank you thank you Mr chairman um Hello thank you so much for for being here today you know when I was back home in in the district over the weekend everywhere I went the grocery store walking around the park doing anything people were coming up to me asking about social security um and I think a lot of people are worried and scared right now um I think part of it has to do with a lot of the Miss and disinformation that's going around I mean we've heard this constant lie uh from Elon Musk that tens
▶ 1:34:08uh of millions of dead people are getting Social Security paychecks um claiming fraud on Social Security I think is one way that folks are going to justify cutting it uh pocketing the benefits for billionaires privatizing it uh Miss co-c Elon Musk is now calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme How concerned are you that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme I don't think we have seen indications in our work that that is the
▶ 1:34:39case musk is calling it upon Ponzi scheme as an excuse to destroy it in my opinion Americans earned Social Security through years of hard work and it's a good investment it could be a better investment for black men because we're pretty much donors because we live less time uh but that's another conversation for another time it's one of the most popular government services and most people support more funding for social security not less uh Miss Wagner you know people want shorter weit times payments processed more quickly um
▶ 1:35:09but at the same time the administration wants to cut 7,000 employees from the administration yesterday somebody from my office called Social Security uh 30 days to process something on retirement 30 days on Medicaid 230 days um as it relates to disability what would be the effects um of these cuts to the Social Security Administration right now when staff shrinks there are fewer people to take appointments to answer phones to process applications for different benefits um and that hurts people Nationwide
▶ 1:35:39and in addition to their own staff soci security administration funds state disability determination service employees who decide whether applicants disabilities are severe enough to qualify for benefits their processing time was already at a record high of 7 months and and we expect Cuts will uh have further impact in addition seven in 10 of social security staff do serve the public directly so this will have a major impact on customer service thank you it's and it's not just you know billionaires like Elon Musk who are going around attacking it um my own Florida Senator
▶ 1:36:09Rick Scott um the richest person in Congress which on the topic of fraud you know my Senator made history he's the man responsible for the largest Medicare fraud in the history of this country $1.7 billion he says that Republicans are qu going to have to cut Social Security end quote why are they doing this well to take money from Social Security to use it for tax cuts for people who are too rich to need it House Republicans plan to make $880 billion in cuts to healthare this means cuts to Medicaid
▶ 1:36:39and Medicare too Miss Wagner four and eight American children are Medicaid recipients including over 60,000 people in my district alone for an Orlando family currently receiving Medicaid what could be the financial Fallout from losing access to Medicaid well first when states are forced to cut back on funding they are going to cut back on who's eligible and the benefits they receive um but Cuts will have broader impacts than just those who are no longer eligible they will directly or indirectly affect the amount of funds available
▶ 1:37:10for State staff for it systems that support Medicaid and they'll probably lead to more improper payments and reduced program Integrity um and it will impact people who even whose eligibility isn't cut longer call center wait times more errors UNC certainty stress and possibly not being able to get approved for benefits or losing coverage at renewal even though they remain eligible thank you you know before coming to Congress I worked in organizations and one of the proudest things I did was work at March for our lives it came after the shooting that happened in Parkland I traveled
▶ 1:37:40this country uh speaking with people that disagreed with me on the issue of gun violence but it made me a better person and something I learned during my travels is in order to speak about something a bipartisan way I think it's really important to make sure people are coming at this on the right foot in good faith um and I'm all for the modernization of our government I think it's really important and I say that's the youngest person in the United States Congress I think it is very important
▶ 1:38:10but when I see the people leading the effort like Elon Musk call something like Social Security a Ponzi scheme and I hear crickets on the other side of the aisle I have a really hard time taking any of this seriously when I go home and I have people coming up to me in the grocery store who are living paycheck to paycheck asking me what are you going to do to protect Social Security so thank you so much and I back Jim yields back his time
▶ 1:38:41uh distinguished gentleman from Florida Mr mosz who's asked to be waved on this committee sir would Elijah chair gentleman's recognized uh thank you Mr chairman thank you for granting my waiver I I appreciate it you know I've been committed uh to helping the government become more efficient save dollars go after fraud waste abuse I was the first Democrat to join the Doge caucus which by the way hasn't done anything and has not been included in anything Elon Musk has done but you know it's nice that we have a we have a
▶ 1:39:11caucus um and so this is this is a bipartisan effort like the chairman mentioned we do want to get at waste frauded abuse but I do think dispelling myths dispelling fact from fiction is important and I want to drill down real quickly first on uh what my colleague from Florida Mr Frost said I'm going to be even more direct uh because I think it's important we'll just go down the line so you gave a an answer
▶ 1:39:41on whether Social Security is a Ponzi scheme the answer is no right it's not a Ponzi scheme we have not reported that it's a Ponzi scheme right so it's not a Ponzi scheme I'm not aware that it's a Ponzi scheme okay agreed okay so Mr musk is wrong no one no one's going to get fired for saying it right he's wrong you can say it it's not a Ponzi scheme I'll say it for you it's not a Ponzi scheme it's not a Pon okay he's wrong I know we're afraid to say it and see that's part of the problem we're afraid to say
▶ 1:40:11that Elon Musk is wrong that's what Mr Frost was talking about when he says he hears crickets from my colleagues we hear crickets from the witnesses because everyone is afraid when Elon says something if it's patently false we're afraid to say it's false all right let's talk about something else the the IG is getting fired you support the IG is getting fired I mean I got to imagine if you're interested in getting rid of fraud waste and abuse they're the people
▶ 1:40:42trying to get rid of fraud waste and abuse so they got fired from agriculture interior HUD Department of Defense the EPA the state department HHS Veterans Affairs labor train Transportation you that in the mission of getting rid of Fraud and waste and abuse the Inspector General committee is critical there are certainly an an um ad you have no opinion whether that was good or bad again I we won't say elon's wrong I know you you won't go there
▶ 1:41:12but was that the right decision you did lose institutional knowledge certainly Administration has right to change the Inspector General is there are reporting mechanisms necessar in like in like let's use numbers let's use data so like 5149 51 bad idea right that was a bad idea I'm trying to the proper protocols weren't followed in we know it was illegal don't get me wrong I didn't I didn't want to make you say that I appreciate you saying that on the
▶ 1:41:42record it was illegal the proper protocols weren't filed but is it good policy if you want to go after fraud waste and abuse was that good policy to lose institutional knowledge no not off good policy I don't think it improves the ability to fight fraud Wast abuse not good policy not good policy okay right and if you're telling the American people that this is a focus of your Administration and then you go fire all of the AGS that doesn't seem to compute okay lastly
▶ 1:42:12did fraud and improper payments start with Joe Biden in his administration was that the first time the government has experienced that that is not the first time that was first time no first time no so we got to depoliticize this stuff cuz all we're he hearing is what happened in the last four years in the last four years in 2017 $140 billion of improper payments that's an accurate
▶ 1:42:43in 2024 we reported 162 billion in 2017 140 billion in improper payments in 2018 150 billion ion of improper payments in 2019 174 billion of improper payments and in 2020 206 billion of improper payments those are GAO numbers so let me just do some math in the first Trump Administration there were $670 billion do of improper payments
▶ 1:43:14I'm not blaming him but he is blaming Joe Biden and so is Elon Musk blaming for the improper payments for what happened in the four years of Joe Biden my point is Mr chairman if we do want to solve this on a bipartisan basis then we got to separate fact from fiction we got to depoliticize it $670 billion do of improper payments and fraud wasting abuse in the first Trump Administration isn't that correct correct
▶ 1:43:44isn't that correct I don't have any reason to doubt your math okay isn't that correct I believe so perfect thank you Mr chairman does gentleman seek to uh give back his time or is gentleman Mr chairman I had no time back but I I'm happy to give back the gentleman your ranking member has asked if we would have a second round distinguished recognized Mr mum well thank you very much uh Mr chair I want to thank Mr mood
▶ 1:44:15I I to the gentleman from Florida I will say Elon Musk is a lie on the record which I've said many times so I guess he's coming in after me one of the things we want to do here is to allow everybody uh freedom of expression this is a an issue particularly for the chairman and I we've been working this for a long long time and getting to the root of this by implementing what we're hearing today and what we've learned from previous hearings is extremely extremely
▶ 1:44:45important uh I don't want to be redundant but again this whole notion about do we have an enforcement mechanism in place when agency heads just watch this sort of thing occur under uh their tenure and do nothing about it or watch it and feel like they can't do anything about it and for those brave souls who do how do we reward them and what what do we do as a Congress to make sure that um we we're tightening up their spine and that they're doing the right thing um I think it's fair to say
▶ 1:45:15that there will be legislation coming out of this hearing at some point in time I know the chairman has expressed an interest I hope to join in that regard uh if we don't do anything else once the uh shouting and everything else is over with we've got to find a way to make sure that dollars that could be used to help people in this country actually get to people if we're able to slow down this I can't call it a trickle of fraud waste and abuse an avalanche that has been going on and I've
▶ 1:45:45been looking at the GAO numbers going all the way back to 2003 uh so Mr marovich was right it didn't start under Joe Biden this has been going on and on and on and um I think we will have a gross failure on our part if we don't find a way in this committee with this uh wind to our back to do something about it I it's it's going to take calm clear thinking a Resolute determination to make sure that
▶ 1:46:15whatever legislation we are able to come up with jointly over and over again that passes uh really does get us to where we want want to be I would think that everybody in this country is appalled to know that there are Crooks out here who feed on the government who lie who cheat who steal who deliberately find a way to get around the law and I don't know that there's any safe haven for those individuals wherever they are I do know that we've got to bring the hammer down on them
▶ 1:46:45which is why I am so dismayed that the inspectors General are not in place to do just that they had started a process and it was yielding results so uh I'm going to yield back to our our chairman uh my commitment is to work uh through these issues uh to work in a bipartisan way where possible and I hope that's very possible and to keep saying what we've been saying over and over again which now is starting to get uh some sort
▶ 1:47:16of audience just because I guess Elon Musk has a bigger bullhorn than my microphone here but we've been this this is not new and we've got to find a way to to do it in a way that is surgical deliberate verifiable and allows for due process with that I'm going to yield back thank you Mr chairman I appreciate the time thank you very much and also if the gentleman does I don't know if that was your closing comments okay then I'm going to yield myself
▶ 1:47:46my time and then I probably will con put those together with my closing comments and then we'll get out I want to thank the uh not only the witnesses who are here today but so many other who are others who are in the audience I think today you saw a very classic uh events that happen almost every day on the hill and that is people miss the opening statements they miss some of the Nuggets of
▶ 1:48:16uh information that each of you gave but what resides in each of us is a desire when we hear the term $800 billion whether it's waste BR or abuse or unintended payments what whatever you would want to put that term with it is frustrating it's frustrating for us it's frustrating for you I will tell you that I think what Mr infu described was the two of us
▶ 1:48:46when he said the answer needs to be I think the answer needs to be a bipartisan answer I think it needs to be looking at this together I think it needs to be this subcommittee through his leadership and perhaps hopefully through mine that we can guide us to decision making that his strong voice my voice uh can move us where we need to go where
▶ 1:49:17is it that we need to go I think today that we heard about the pandemic responsib account accountability committee is one of those answers it is an answer that it currently exists and it was a bipartisan answer it still maintains a good bit of data but it was done just for the pandemic it was not done for other programs that would reside across the government I think that the expertise that Mr Deen ball spoke to me
▶ 1:49:47about yesterday when I met with him for a good period of time was that he SE that they could be a potential front side answer to uh not just waste Fraud and Abuse but on an individual basis for the various organizations Social Security Veterans Affairs uh IRS uh we spoke about how 18f
▶ 1:50:17us for some time provided some assurance that that would know who a person was on coming in but we now recognize it didn't quite work that way but the pandemic response accountability committee has effectively been able to prove that the work that they have done and so a piece of legislation I spoke to Chairman comr about it this morning will be in order within two weeks
▶ 1:50:48we're going to go to a markup we are going to work together we're going to I think see the same answer and that is we think that you worked Mr Deen moach we think that that answer is an upfront answer and we will then have to find a way to mirror not only what you do but find a way to bring the Avenues of data and information UPF front and apply
▶ 1:51:19those same principles to the biggest problem problem I don't think that we'll go overnight directly to you I don't think you're staff for that I don't we we'll work together but I do think that the answer lies in upfront gaining the information if the members had all been here up front they would have heard all three of you concur on that they would have said well we need to do this on an upfront
▶ 1:51:49basis be as a person goes through this process in particular before we send out billions or trillions of dollars to people which is something that I've tried to Echo our government is not prepared to send money out on a mass basis at this point we are not prepared and I'm not trying to disappoint anybody in this Administration but we're not prepared for it we need to get prepared and I believe that Mr INF fum and
▶ 1:52:19I who've been given this Authority and respons responsibility will continue to work with you I'll be quite honest I was delighted with what I heard yesterday from GAO I think that they have provided us a lot of information which is allowing us to hone in not only on the problems but the answers and I think if we move ourself to answers through a process that people understand
▶ 1:52:49and expect it will mean that a lot of people uh gain confidence in not only the federal government but the workforces that are there lastly I don't want to do this necessarily because the gentlemen are not here Mr Frost Mr Mo mosquit but it I I think might be slightly a revision to what he said about their hearing crickets
▶ 1:53:20in fact the $800 billion is a number these will be votes that will be taken and we have already seen where these numbers which are being looked at by this Doge organization om om in the government is reporting that they believe the huge numbers of quote Cuts could be achieved
▶ 1:53:50by reducing the amount of unintended payments and we could look back I did not do that to to line up whether it's Medicare whether it's Medicaid whether it's VA whether it's SBA I did not look that from the information the goo has given us what I will tell you is is that people like me and I think people like Mr enum want to do something about
▶ 1:54:20it people like like me I am a republican believe that we can get credit for cutting waste Fraud and Abuse and we have laid down the gauntlet to say we are going to do the things that would be necessary to cut unintended payments and we're going to work those into the government and we're going to make
▶ 1:54:50sure this happens and that will be done on a bipartisan basis but for us to assume that we cannot make this better by grow that we would make it better by growing the organization I would submit to you I don't agree with that I don't agree that we can do it by keeping workers at home rather than in the office working with databases and figuring out who wants to
▶ 1:55:21get committed and this is where I saw the process that is political where the president said if you don't choose not to want to come back he understood that he would offer a buyout plan that was immediately attacked we live in a political world and there are people who will attack President Biden or president Trump just from their word go the word go of their name so I would submit to you that I think that we are
▶ 1:55:51not having Cor we are having a plan that we're laying out I've got to do a better job as one of the co-chairman of do it is my opportunity and my uh real need to talk to the American people with Clarity but as the father of a Down syndrome young man who was 31 years old I too have been through and seen how our services that we offer to those people who cannot take care of themsel and their
▶ 1:56:21families should not be the ones that find themsel on the wrong end of these changes it is true what was stated to here today that families that have disabled people disabled children disabled adults people they care for have a threshold of frustration of working through the system
▶ 1:56:52and I think that system will get better as we hone ourself through the work that would be done on a bipartisan basis and less fear the fear that people have about losing Social Security is in fact not true it would not be true it is not the goal of
▶ 1:57:22Elon Musk or of this government and I do recognize there have been some words stated about their uh problems with what they see as an aggregate amount of payments but I will tell you that there is more than enough room to stop the payments that would equal the amount of money that is almost destined to be cut
▶ 1:57:53we deal with 10year numbers not one-year numbers we deal with numbers that are exponentially high and it sounds almost like oh my gosh they're going to shut down the program in fact there needs to be thought process behind it I in no way am afraid of a town hall meeting of explaining what we're doing but as a member of Congress if we accept
▶ 1:58:23that where we are and where we have been is acceptable to our future we are missing the boat so I would ask that each of you know that you got asked tough questions today doesn't bother me but to have the confidence that if we move forward together including mru and myself that we can end up in a point where we look at each other and say we made
▶ 1:58:53this better we saved the money that was actually destined for people that it was intended to and then we'll see what the score is I have great confidence we can do this so I do not want to a conversation that they hear crickets to be part of this there are not crickets there is a really daunting task of us to take this $1.7
▶ 1:59:24trillion or $2.7 trillion whatever the amount was that is laid in front of us and we were never talking about cuts that were bigger than that we were talking about cuts that are way less but that make sense so I want to thank each of you for being here today I I think each of you did well enough to be invited back but perhaps more importantly we would like to work with you and Mr mum and
▶ 1:59:54I are going to deal with this in legislation we'll pass it to you and also see if you would your opinion might be for that but I want to thank you each for being here today the gentlemen does the gentleman wish to further time just to thank our Witnesses we do thank our Witnesses and that they stick around a second Mr infu and I are going to end this hearing and come and thank you for being here uh this can concludes the uh hearing today I
▶ 2:00:24want to thank the witnesses and you're now excused in my script right whoops we will um where's the five days whoa whoa well hold on just a second I'm sorry uh we will without objection we will extend to where's the statement you want me to read the five days it's all five legislative days for people
▶ 2:00:55to ask for questions and to receive information where is that bill right there where is it I don't see it and I apologize it's a normal thing we do there you go Crystal right ask unanimous yeah I know what it says but I'm going to read oh there it is with all that said without objection
▶ 2:01:25all members will have five legislative days within which to submit additional written questions for Witnesses which will be forwarded to witness for their response if there's no further Business Without objection the subcommittee adjourned e