▶ 0:07:15Mars to the foundation of college athletics is efforts by activists and the National Labor Relations Board appointees under the Biden Harris administration to to deem student athletes as employees. Because of this, there are many unresolved questions regarding how college sports will look in the future. Despite more money than ever flowing into college athletics, universities are supporting fewer sports teams due to a range of challenges.
▶ 0:07:44This reality results in fewer scholarship opportunities for young American athletes, many of whom will not become professional athletes, but rather play sports as part of their educational pursuits. At its core, college sports are about enhancing student academic experience as well as enhancing their careers after graduation.
▶ 0:08:07Unfortunately, that mission uh was threatened by President Biden's radical NLRB stemming from former general counsel Jennifer Abbruso's memo providing guidance to all NRLB NLRB field offices that certain student athletes or employees under the National Labor Relations Act. The mandate to reclassify student athletes as employees would have devastating consequences.
▶ 0:08:34The increased cost of unionization and administrative headaches would have threatened the viability of many college athletic programs, including many women's sports and small school athletic programs, resulting in fewer teams, fewer scholarships, and fewer opportunities for our young people.
▶ 0:08:52Additionally, employee status would have triggered unintended consequences for student athletes and could have led them to receiving fewer benefits, having scholarships revoked for poor performance, and having scholarships taxed by the IRS.
▶ 0:09:08While the Trump NLRB acting general counsel rightfully withdrew the Abru memo and the relevant cases before the NLRB have been withdrawn, it is still incumbent on the committee to consider whether federal legislation is need needed to ensure a future board does not attempt to impose the same wrongheaded policy. I now yield to the ranking member for an opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 0:09:38As I mentioned during uh the hearing we convened on this subject last March. College athletics should be uh college athletes should be treated like people first and foremost and students not just sources of revenue for their college and universities. We should stand with them, ensure their well-being and reject any effort to strip away their right to organize and collectively bargain if necessary.
▶ 0:10:02Organizations like the NCAA boast boost boast massive revenues from the hard work of college athlet athletes. While these college athletes are often taken advantage of and mistreated, college athletes put in long hours on top of their classes, homework, extracurriculars, and even a job if they are permitted to have one.
▶ 0:10:22In in the two 2023 to 24 fiscal year, the NCAA rad in almost 1.4 4 billion in revenue, a $91 million increase from the pre prior year. And in 2023, division one schools spent over 3.6 billion on coaches salaries, making up the largest spending cate category of these schools, athletic finances.
▶ 0:10:47College athletes are understandably looking for ways to level the playing field and gain more of a Unfortunately, some of my colleagues have pushed to unilaterally prevent any college athlete from being designated as an employee. This measure would essentially grant the NCAA a blank check to avoid all responsibility for employment liability and allow rampant mistreatment of athletes without recourse.
▶ 0:11:14Additionally, providing any special carveout to the NCAA where college athletes would be exempt from employee classification would inevitably rob athletes of rights to which they entitled while also creating a new category outside of traditional employment that would be ripe for exploitation and abuse. We should not be in the business of creating loopholes that allow athletes to be exploited, potentially harming their health and safety.
▶ 0:11:42Many of us on this side are not advocating to broadly classify all college athletes as employees. We recognize that there is a large spectrum of college ath athletics and that some programs have greater resource and exert more control over athlet athletes than others particularly concerned about money and support from the major sports football and basketball to minor sports which are such a big part of the college environment and athletics.
▶ 0:12:11That is why in many ways our existing labor and unemployment laws are rooted in a factspecific analysis. This is complica this is a complicated issue that only grows more complex as the years go on and college sports industry gets bigger and bigger.
▶ 0:12:27That being said, if an athlete meets the legal standard of being an employee as set out in the Fair Labor Standards Act and the National Labor Relations Act, then that athlete should be afforded the same considerations and protections of any other employee, including the protected right to form a union and bargain for better conditions and a greater share of the product, which is enormous, of their labor.
▶ 0:12:51Even President Trump appointed Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaaugh stated, quote, "College and student athletes could potentially engage in collective bargaining or seek some other negotiated agreement to provide student athletes a fair share of the revenues that they generate for their colleges." End quote from Justice Kavanaaugh. College athletes should be treated with fairness and dignity. I hope we can have a constructive conversation about this today. And I, as I've said, it's complicated.
▶ 0:13:22One rule doesn't apply, except that if you're clearly an employee by federal law, then you are an employee. Finally, I think it's important to acknowledge the broader context in which this hearing is happening. Last month, the president issued an executive order dismantling the Department of Education and cutting its workforce in half. This decision seems bound to impact the department work administrating student loans and PEL grants among other key areas.
▶ 0:13:49In the coming weeks, my Republican colleagues on this committee are likely to cut critical student loan programs. Hopefully, they will not to help finance their multi-t trillion dollar tax cut for the wealthy. In the next month or so, college students will be graduating and entering a work a working world that is currently being thrown in chaos thanks to the administration's regressive terrorists that economists fear could spur a recession.
▶ 0:14:16College athletes and all college students and their families could suffer real harm from these decisions. We must be thoughtful when we make these decisions and we cannot divorce the con the conversation we're having today from the policies being pursued by the administration. I thank the chair and I yield back the balance of my time. I thank the ranking member.
▶ 0:14:37Uh, pursuant to uh, committee rule 8C, all excuse me, pursuant to committee rule 8C, all members who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the committee clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by 5:00 p.m. 14 days after this hearing.
▶ 0:14:58And without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material noted during the hearing to be submitted for the original hearing record. I will now turn to the introduction of our four distinguished witnesses. The first witness is Daniel L. Nash, a shareholder of Litler, a law firm here in Washington DC. Our second witness is Mrs.
▶ 0:15:22Morgan Win, a former softball student athlete at Oklahoma State University and still Water Oklahoma. And I understand y'all won a lot of championships there. Thank you. I congratulate you on that. Our third witness is uh uh Mr. Roji Humea uh the executive director of the National College Players Association in Norco, California. Our last last witness is Mrs.
▶ 0:15:48Jackie McWills Parker, the commissioner for the Central Intercolgate Athletic Association in Charlotte, North Carolina. We thank the witnesses for being here today and we look forward to your testimony. Pursuant to committee rules, I would ask that you each limit your oral presentation to a threeminut summary of your written statement. The clock will count down from three minutes as committee members have many questions for you and we would like to spend as much time as possible on those questions.
▶ 0:16:17uh pursuant to commit committee rule 8D and committee practice. However, we will not cut off your testimony until you reach the five minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information to the subcommittee. I will first recognize Mr. Nash for your opening testimony. Thank you uh chairman Allen uh ranking men member DS and members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:16:47Uh thank you very much for the opportunity to testify today particularly concerning the question whether students who participate in intercolgate athletics should be treated as employees of their schools. I am a lawyer that has practiced labor and employment law for over 30 years, particularly in the sports industry, including in matters both involving professional sports and college athletics.
▶ 0:17:13Until recently, the question was well settled under our labor and employment laws. Historically, participation in college athletics has never been deemed to create an employment relationship between the students and their and their schools. Rather, intercolgate sports have always been viewed no differently than the many other extracurricular activities in which students participate as an important part of their college education.
▶ 0:17:44However, as this subcommittee knows, in recent years, the colleges and universities have faced considerable litigation, some of it existential, claiming that college athletes should be paid and entitled to join labor unions. In my view, there's been a great deal of misunderstanding in these cases about the law and and their and their implications for student athletes in their schools.
▶ 0:18:11And in that regard, let me just suggest a a few points worth keeping in mind during today's hearing. First, and perhaps most importantly, we should be clear about which students we are talking about and which students student athletes have been largely ignored in this debate.
▶ 0:18:31It's no secret that the effort to reclassify student athletes have primarily cons the efforts um have primarily concerned two and only two sports and that is that is football and basketball.
▶ 0:18:45And the argument in these cases has been that the law should be changed for these student athletes uh because the amount of revenue in those sports has changed and it is unfair for those students not to share in that revenue in the same way that professional athletes do. The argument has been they are really professional athletes.
▶ 0:19:06However, as a matter of labor and employment law, revenue has never been a factor, never in determining whether someone should be classified as an employee. And the arguments about ignore that unlike a commercial business whose revenue is distributed to its shareholders as profit, the revenue received by colleges and universities related to sports like football and basketball helps provide scholarships and other financial support
▶ 0:19:37to all of their student athletes, including the many Olympic and women's sports programs. Second, the suggestion that student athletes should be permitted to engage in collective bargaining under a professional sports model simply misunderstands how collective bargaining works under the labor laws.
▶ 0:19:54The NLRB recognized this in the Northwestern case um and making it clear that a single schools uh team having collective bargaining would not be viable and there would be no plausible way to have a broader unit of collective bargaining because many of the colleges and universities are public or religiously affiliated and outside the NLRP's jurisdiction. And finally, I I want to I I I want to emphasize I one important point.
▶ 0:20:23I do not believe um that it is helpful to frame the arguments surrounding the status of student athletes under the labor laws as either pro- union or or or anti-UN. I've worked very closely um with and I respect the unions in the professional sports leagues who abley represent those athletes.
▶ 0:20:44But the young students who attend college and participate in extracurricular activities including intercolgate sports are not remotely equivalent to professional athletes and treating them as such would not solve the issues facing college sports. In fact, I believe the opposite is true and that Congress should make clear that students who participate in intercolgiate sports are not employees of their colleges and university. I look forward to the subcommittee's questions.
▶ 0:21:14Thank you, Mr. Nash. I now recognizes recognize Mrs. Wyn uh for your Chairman Allen, Ranking Member Donier, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. My time as a softball student athlete at Oklahoma State was about more than just athletic success. It was about the relationships I built, the lessons I learned, and the constant support system that shaped me into the person I am today.
▶ 0:21:45I fear that shifting student athletes into an employment model would erode the very essence of what makes college athletics so transformative. My experience at OSU was rooted in a culture of academic support, athletic excellence, and personal development. Values that should be protected and preserved for generations of student athletes to come. As an underassman, I struggled not just on the field, but in ways beyond the game. especially as a 17-year-old first generation college student.
▶ 0:22:14When I entered the transfer portal, I saw an environment where I could thrive not just as an athlete, but as a student and a person, and OSU provided exactly that. I found a coaching staff that prioritized our academics and our futures, ensuring that our education remained the foundation of our experience. Unlike some programs where academic choices are restricted, my teammates and I were empowered to pursue any major and career path we desired.
▶ 0:22:40Practice schedules were built around our class commitments, demonstrating our coach's genuine care for our futures beyond the game. Because of this, I was named an academic all-American and graduated in the top 1% of my senior class in 2023. But more than just academic and athletic success, what defined my time at OSU was the culture of trust, respect, and open communication.
▶ 0:23:03Our coaches curated a sense of family and camaraderie that is something I cherish and I deeply fear may be lost if student athletes transition into an employment model. As former co-chair of division 1 student athlete advisory committee and a current board of governors voting member, I visited with hundreds of athletes across the divisions virtually and in person on this subject. I've truly witnessed firsthand the fear and uncertainty this conversation brings to athletes across the country.
▶ 0:23:32It's easy to frame this issue as one of fairness and of athletes getting what they deserve. But the reality is that many mid- major institutions and non-revenue sports simply do not have the financial resources to sustain an employment model. This conversation isn't just about the implications for current student athletes. It's about the generations of student athletes who will come after us.
▶ 0:23:56If schools are forced to cut sports to afford employment costs, we are losing life-changing and transformational opportunities for thousands of aspiring NCAA athletes. The collegiate model, while imperfect, has provided so many of us the chance to pursue both an education and the sport we love. We should be working to enhance support and resources for student athletes, not implementing a system that could limit access and opportunity.
▶ 0:24:23I urge decision makers to truly listen to the voices of those who will be impacted the most. College athletics should not be dictated by financial gain alone or reduced to a business transaction, silencing the voices of the majority. We cannot afford to lose what makes this experience so invaluable, the education, the growth, and the chance to be a part of something bigger. It should be protected and preserved with this at the forefront of our minds. Thank you. Next, I recognize Mr.
▶ 0:24:52Huma for your Good morning. My name is Ramoi Huma. I'm a former UCLA football player and the executive director of the NCPA, the National College Players Association. The NCPA is a nonprofit advocacy organization with a mission to protect future, current, and former college athletes of all sports. The NCPA spearheaded the college athletes rights movement since its launch in 2001. First, I'd like to thank Chairman Wahberg and Allan and ranking members Scott and Donier for inviting me to testify today.
▶ 0:25:21College sports is an $18 billion a year industry where men's basketball coaches can earn $9 million per year, football coaches can make $13 million per year, and even athletic directors now make more than $3 million per year. The NCA, conferences, and schools are enriching themselves while working to strip equal rights and deny basic protections from college athletes whose talents generate this revenue. The NCPA continues to advocate that college athletes deserve equal rights under the law.
▶ 0:25:50Ensuring all Americans have equal rights under the law should not be a matter of debate. This includes labor law. However, it's important to highlight that college athlete employment status and collective bargaining is not an urgent issue. There are no active NLRB cases and any new case would take many, many years to resolve. However, there are urgent issues in college sports that Congress should address immediately. NCA sports is a predatory industry that exploits college athletes physically, sexually, economically.
▶ 0:26:19To date, the NCA and conferences refuse to impose any consequences for personnel who kill an athlete in a hazardous workout, sexually abuse an athlete, or force an athlete with a concussion back into the same game. I've met too many grieving, devastated parents like the parents of Calvin Dicki Jr. and Jordan McNair who died preventable deaths in NCAA football workouts at Bucknell University in the University of Maryland.
▶ 0:26:44I don't want to have to have any more conversations from survivors like former San Jose State gymnast Amylair, whose team athletic trainer sexually abused her and other female athletes for 14 years under the guise of medical treatment while their university failed to adequately respond to the request for help. We've all read the headlines of hundreds of college athletes at colleges who have suffered the same fate while the NCAA and conferences turn a blind eye. And make no mistake, these abuses are not they're not rare, they're rampant.
▶ 0:27:15In surveys, half of division one athletic trainers report being pressured by coaches to play athletes before they're ready and returning players with concussions to the same game. About 20% of coaches return athletes to play who are deemed medically ineligible. and more than one in four college athletes report being sexually assaulted or harassed by a campus authority figure. All legal pathways to address these serious problems should be available to athletes.
▶ 0:27:44Federal and state legislation, judicial action, and a path toward collective bargaining. The solution certainly won't come from the NCAA, which coldly asserts that it has no duty to protect college athletes. This is an indefensible position, but it begs the question, who is responsible? Because universities that are abusing athletes receive federal funds, it's the NCPA's position that Congress shares responsibility in addressing these issues.
▶ 0:28:12Instead of solving these issues, the NCA and conferences are now demanding Congress eliminate athletes ability to collectively bargain for these protections. They're also demanding Congress enshrine into federal law exploitative restrictions included in the House versus NCA lawsuit settlement. The parties are actually trying to liken this terrible settlement to a collective bargaining agreement. No proath union in America would agree to these terms.
▶ 0:28:36This supposed collective bargaining agreement includes no safety standards, no medical coverage, zero dollars in guaranteed money, loopholes that can ban all athlete NIL compensation from universities, the elimination of about $2 billion in NIL pay from collectives so schools can remmonize money from athletic boosters, and a requirement that particip participating universities cut their rosters. It's a requirement.
▶ 0:29:05These unfair terms only underscore why college athletes should have a seat at the table and why Congress should intervene to help. The NCA and conferences need accountability from Congress on these issues, not a bailout. The NCPA requests that Congress only pass legislation to to adopt broad-based reform, including the enforcement of safety standards to prevent serious injury, abuse, and death among college athletes. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Humea. Lastly, I recognize Mrs.
▶ 0:29:34Williams Parker for your Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Allen, Ranking Member Dier, and distinguished subcommittee members. My name is Jackie McWills Parker, and for more than three decades, my life has been immersed in college athletics. As a student athlete, a coach, and now a commissioner of the Central Interolgiate Athletic Association, I've experienced the life-changing power of college sports in so many ways.
▶ 0:29:59My mission is to ensure college sports continues to create opportunities for generations like it once created for me. As commissioner of the CIAA first established HBU conference, a one of four conferences of historically black colleges and universities, it is our responsibility as leaders to be gatekeepers to protect and advocate for our member institutions and student athletes in our conferences.
▶ 0:30:23That's why I'm here today, to express my great desire for Congress to pass legislation that supports a future for college sports that allows athletic departments of all sizes and varieties, including H.B.CU, to thrive.
▶ 0:30:37In recent years, there's been a massive and long overdue effort to elevate and support and the support to support and the benefits provided to our student athletes, including expanded scholarship guarantees, the creation of a new posteligility health insurance program, and enhanced access to academic and career services. Meeting the needs of our student athletes remains an ongoing effort. Progress has been tremendous, and the commitment from college sports leaders to driving continued change runs deep.
▶ 0:31:06But as these positive changes have moved forward, it's become clear that there are limits to what what we in college sports alone can address. And I'm greatly concerned that without congressional action, policies that negatively impact the student athletes experience and financial viability of our H.B.CU are at risk of taking hold. In particular, there are two areas where I believe Congress congressional action is essential to asssuring college sports provides opportunities for schools and sports of all types.
▶ 0:31:34First, we need to confirm that student athletes are not employees. Unlike the large institutions that generate significant revenue through media rights, sponsorships, and ticket sales, HBCU often struggle to cover the full cost of athletic programs.
▶ 0:31:48Transitioning student athletes to an employment model would exacerbate the strain and deficit on our already strapped athletic department budgets, likely leading to downgrading or outright eliminating certain sports or reducing the number of scholarships and other resources available to student athletes. Second, we need to ensure that NCA receives sufficient limited liability protection so that it can perform its purpose.
▶ 0:32:12working with student athletes, member institutions, and conferences like mine to make and enforce basic rules to determine student athlete eligibility limits and so that schools across the country are competing on a level playing field. So much of my life's story is a testament to the power of college sports and it's a privilege to be here today to advocate for H.B.CU and future generations of student athletes. Thank you for the opportunity to share my voice. Thank you, Mrs. McWills Parker.
▶ 0:32:41Under rule qu uh committee rule nine, we will now question witnesses under the fiveminute rule. I will recognize myself for five minutes. Mrs. Wyn, you said in your written testimony that as former co-chair of division one student athletic advisory committee, you had the opportunity to speak with hundreds of student athletes who expressed fears about what employment status could mean for them and the future of college sports. What were some of the top concerns you heard from your peers?
▶ 0:33:11Thank you for the question. The top concern from the student athletes I've spoken to is the ongoing threat of cutting athletic opportunity for thousands of student athletes to pay for the student athletes that generate the most revenue which would ultimately create an uneven playing field between the athletes. Another fear is the potential decline in the pri prioritization of athlete of academics. Sorry.
▶ 0:33:40Most student athletes who play in college do not go on to play professionally and choose their schools to pursue academics. We fear becoming employees would put a substantial emphasis on job security through athletic performance over the current academic eligibility centric model. Thank you. Uh Mr. International.
▶ 0:33:58Like other college students, student athletes must satisfy certain academic standards to gain admission to their universities and to participate in extracurricular act extracurricular activities, including their sport. If student athletes are deemed to be employees under the National Labor Relations Act, could grade point averages or course credit requirements become subjects of collective bargaining? Thank you, uh, Chairman Allen.
▶ 0:34:27We we don't know the answer to that and nor do the advocates of of um converting student athletes to employees and and attempting to have collective bargaining. Uh it is certainly conceivable that um the the the academic rules that apply to student athletes and how they're enforced um and and other rules other rules related to their education and their and the academic environment would be subjects of bargaining.
▶ 0:34:54Those are things that are just simply not present in the professional sports leagues. Yeah. Uh could this unionization undermine academic standards? In other words, that you know, the young people would uh you know, their work responsibilities over actually getting an education when less than 2% of these young people go on to play in professional sports. I I I I think the reality of that is is is probably obvious, right?
▶ 0:35:19I I I think almost certainly uh if we're talking about what is essentially making the student athletes on these sports as professionals, that's going to be the focus uh not academics. Right. Thank you, Mrs. Mc Williams Parker. Fewer than 2% of NCAA student athletes turn professional in their respective sports as I mentioned earlier.
▶ 0:35:43What impact would employee status have on ensuring these college athletes can continue to focus first and foremost on being students and on their academic success to make sure that they have successful careers after college. Look, I this conversation about particularly for our H.B.CU and our smaller institutions.
▶ 0:36:06I mean, I'm I'm highly concerned about employment because the fact of the matter, our institutions were built in this country to give us an education. Athletics is an ancillary opportunity to allow our students to engage way beyond just getting their degree. Making them employees or changing that status, it really changes the opportunities that we get to create at our institutions and our smaller schools.
▶ 0:36:29being able to give them the resources that they need for academic support, for travel, for uniforms, all those things that are important and necessary, especially for students that are first generational students. So, I hope we never lose the focus of why education was established in this country in the first place. Athletics has just been the the benefit that we all have. It's a privilege to be able to be a college student athlete, and I hope we don't take that away from them. Yes.
▶ 0:36:57So many young people have been able to get their education and u and also uh participate in their sport of choice uh on the field and um and then go on to uh very successful careers and uh whatever we do as members of Congress, we we want to keep that as the first priority and um and I think that's that's it behind the scenes here.
▶ 0:37:25we're we're putting other things first uh like you know collective bargaining, unionization and employee status and you know all these other things and I think we've got to work to make sure that academics is priority one. Uh that I I will yield then to the ranking member for your question. Okay, Miss McBath, I'm sorry. Miss Mcbath, I recognize you for five minutes for questioning.
▶ 0:37:54Uh thank you uh chair and ranking member Dany for hosting this hearing and to our witnesses that are here with us this morning. Thank you so much to for taking the time to testify. College athletics have such an important place in our education system and American society. They represent more than just a sports team.
▶ 0:38:16They carry the legacy of a town, an institution, and a past players dreams and These things are incredibly meaningful and we need to be sure that nothing that we do here in Congress will further complicate things for folks back home or put these opportunities further out of reach for students and their families. Student athletes must be treated with the dignity and the respect that they deserve.
▶ 0:38:43They must be fairly compensated for their efforts while ensuring that schools, both large and both small, can continue to provide the highquality education and athletic opportunities for our students. Athletic scholarships have and continue to play a very important role in making sure that every student who wants to better themselves through a higher education has an opportunity to do so without going into a lifetime of debt, regardless of how much money their parents
▶ 0:39:14make or whether anyone in their family has ever been to college before. They are directly responsible for helping people lift themselves up from lower income levels and into a better quality of life, sometimes breaking generational cycles of poverty.
▶ 0:39:32While most student athletes may not go on to play professional sports, all of them will be more likely able to finish their degree and have the skills that are necessary to provide a decent life for themselves after they graduate. They are true engines of social mobility. And it would be devastating to students, families, and athletic programs if athletes had to worry about being taxed on those very scholarships.
▶ 0:40:03But that exact proposal is unfortunately being floated by our House This memo circulated by the majority, which I would like to submit digitally for the record, outlines the potential ways that Republicans want to raise revenue this Congress.
▶ 0:40:24And you can see that this proposal to make all scholarships income taxable, this is right here written out on page 11. This proposal would impose a new tax on students and families and force students and athletic recruits with the lowest incomes to reconsider whether or not they can afford to accept a scholarship because of the new tax burden that would come with it.
▶ 0:40:51Student athletes should be focused on success on the field and in the classroom, not on whether they will have to pay a new tax on the scholarships that they've earned. Miss Mc Williams Parker, can you talk about the negative impact that taxing scholarship opportunities would have on student athletes if this proposal by my House Republican colleagues to tax all scholarships were to become law?
▶ 0:41:22Thank you, Miss McBth, for that question. Um, I was a walk-on student athlete at Hampton University. My parents had to pay for me to go to college and I depended on the package to be a student athlete athlete that year and I earned a scholarship thereafter. And I think about that question if if you had to tax if we had to tax that scholarship that is an extra burden on my family that one that they couldn't afford. They couldn't afford for me to go to Hampton.
▶ 0:41:49So the the fact of the matter of being able to get a scholarship and able to get the resources that I had on campus was extremely important. We're a smaller institutions. We're division two. All of our student athlete and scholarship packages in our division. So when you talk about exposure and what we're seeing for football and basketball, that is not the reality of our students and our first gener generational students at our institutions. There's a need to they need the need the support. They need the PEL grants.
▶ 0:42:19They need the financial aid. That is part of their scholarship packaged at our division 2 schools. And in division one, I would imagine that they depend on some of that scholarship money as well. So taxing it is not helping us at all. Thank you for that. I too come from Virginia State University. I graduated there. I'm not going to say when, but that is also a division 2 school as well. And so I've spoken with our our uh president there several times.
▶ 0:42:47And I understand unequivocally how devastating it would be if we were to tax uh these scholarships. Um, also in the state of Georgia too, we have scholarships that are being taxed as well. So, thank you for your testimony. The gentle lady yields back. The chair recognizes Rep. Mr. Bombgartner of Washington for 5 minutes. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and uh very much appreciate this distinguished panel and this uh hearing being held.
▶ 0:43:14Uh trying to restore college sports is one of the reasons I I came to Congress and interested of u is very interesting uh to me. I I certainly don't believe that uh college athletes are uh employees, but I also think many of the aspects of collective bargaining should be brought to uh the the results of what would happen with collective bargaining should be brought uh to the collegiate athlete uh system. Uh what our college athletics are highly subsidized public goods and I think they should be regulated as such.
▶ 0:43:44Uh what our goal should be is we have more money in the system now but we have less athletic opportunities than ever before. What our underlying principle should be is to create a new opportunities both for the benefit of the student athletes but in this day and age as American society becomes more political and more partisan. There is an important piece of social cohesion and camaraderie and societal benefit that just comes from everything that we love about college athletics. And so I think it needs to be restored.
▶ 0:44:11Uh personally I think the NCAA is a defunct and derelict institution. I don't think it can be fixed. I think there needs to be a new institution put under pre presidential control uh and authorized by Congress for these public goods. I think there has to be a system of fairness and competitive balance across the system both the athletes and the schools.
▶ 0:44:32And if all the money goes into SEC football and Big 10 football and a little bit to basketball, then the Olympic sport athletes are going to be the ones that are going to suffer. So if we can treat the system equally amongst all sports and all athletes, I think we will get the solution that is in the best uh public interest. Uh I believe that uh coach's salaries need to be capped uh at 10 times uh the total uh cost of the average student going uh to college.
▶ 0:45:03Uh again, this is not free market unfettered capitalism. This is a highly subsidized public good. There's not a lot of societal benefit uh if of a football coach making over $10 million a year. What you want is competitive balance. all of us that enjoyed college football and I uh grew up watching Power Five football. It was just as much fun for the fans and the students when the coaches were making $200,000 or $500,000 a year as when they're making $10 million.
▶ 0:45:27It's this unfettered arms race and this nonsense like having slides and and these uh these ridiculous whirlpool bass and these special chairs in all the locker rooms that so they can entice recruits. There's no benefit to you guys as athletes uh with that. And then finally, the idea that we would have transcontinental conferences where student athletes are a volleyball team is going from uh Eugene, Oregon to uh Rutgers in New Jersey midweek. That's insane.
▶ 0:45:57That's not what the public uh wants to pay for. So, Congress has all the tools to put this back together. You know, I believe that we should put NIL into a pool and share it equally amongst all athletes. I think we should pull uh TV revenue for all sports so that your H.B.CU are benefiting and we can create so many opportunities for the sons and do uh daughters of American uh taxpayers uh and as we restore this system.
▶ 0:46:23Um, you know, to my question, uh, Miss Wine, do you believe, you know, the the the future, uh, young ladies like yourselves playing softball, uh, right now? I mean, what needs to happen so that there were would be more opportunities for young ladies like yourself, uh, and not less? And do you worry, uh, when you watch all the money going into football and men's basketball that there's going to be less opportunities for for young ladies like Thank you for the question.
▶ 0:46:50I do worry about the future of my own sport. Um, I worry about the future of all female sports in this conversation. Um, I dreamed as a little kid that I would get to play at the World Series. And fortunately enough, I went to two. Um, and I think that every young softball player now should continue to have that dream and not have to worry that those opportunities won't be created for them or still there for them.
▶ 0:47:21Um, I I can't give you the best solution in my opinion for this um just because I'm here to talk about how I was my experience as a student athlete. Um, but I do think that there needs to be a balance. Well, you know, I hope we have a unique opportunity, I think, in a bipartisan fashion, you know, with this president. Again, these are public goods.
▶ 0:47:44If we regulate them in a public manner, highly sized public goods, we realize that if we could have a and it rises, I believe, to the to the to the importance of a presidential appointee and then authorized by Congress, we can get the NCA out of all this business, put the proper role with Congress authorizing these things and have more money. Again, we can have we have more money in the system and less opportunities than ever before. If Congress takes action, we can have more opportunities for our athletes and maintain the competitive imbalance across the system. And I yield back. Thank you. Thank the gentleman.
▶ 0:48:14Now, I recognize the gentle lady from Pennsylvania, Representative Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will say that I never thought that I would hear a Republican colleague call for socialism and redistribution of wealth and and resources. Um, but I'm excited to hear that such proposals do exist on the other side. Uh but I I just want to say that if you have been watching college basketball's uh March Mad March Madness tournament like I have been for the last few few weeks uh then it should already be clear why college athletes deserves the right to organize and bargain collectively.
▶ 0:48:45But in case you haven't uh been paying attention, I would like to take just a moment to to break some of it down. March Madness packed 67 men's and 63 women's basketball games into an action-packed 21 days. This year, for the second year in a row, this college basketball tournament generated around a billion dollars in revenue for the NCAA. With such high revenue, you might assume that players get a nice cut of that action, but your assumption would of course be wrong.
▶ 0:49:11While the schools behind successful women's basketball and men's basketball or excuse me, women's basketball programs are splitting 15 million in prize money, and the schools of the successful men's uh team will share around $216 million. their triumphant college athletes will walk away completely empty-handed. Beyond prize money, many schools will make millions of dollars off of these young people's backs. Last year, the Power Five conferences generated over 3.5 billion in revenue. You heard that, a billion with a B.
▶ 0:49:39While the NCAA and athletic conferences raked in billions, the outlook for the college athletes who made them their money is grim. In a 2019 survey, almost 25% of division 1 athletes reported experiencing food insecurity. in the last month and nearly 14% were homeless over the last year.
▶ 0:49:56A study published by Idaho State University in 2022 found that more than half of the division one student athletes surveyed reported eating less often than they felt they should because there was not access to enough food. I request unanimous consent to enter into the record an article by Wisconsin Public Radio title survey and nearly a quarter of division one athletes face food insecurity. Without objection, they'll be entered. Thank you, Mr. Humea. Um, can you speak about the financial strain that far too many athletes face?
▶ 0:50:28You know, it's funny. This uh organization, my organization started out as a student group at UCLA when I was playing football. And um I formed the group after my teammate was suspended because groceries were left on his doorstep when he was broken hungry. And meanwhile, they were selling his jersey in the store. They said it was an NIO violation. you couldn't have any benefit at all outside of what a regular student would have received.
▶ 0:50:51So, this entire movement, much of it, at least my part and my organization's part stemmed from food and groceries. Uh you may have assumed that I played receiver or DB back in the day. I was a linebacker and I needed to eat a lot and uh I was undersized linebacker. Uh but I went from eating five, six meals a day at home to three meals a day in a meal cart at UCLA. immediately lost within a month, month and a half, lost 10 pounds. You know, I'm I'm trying to hit 300 pounders at 210 pounds and uh it was tough.
▶ 0:51:21So, fast forward to the surveys you're talking about. Unfortunately, much of this hasn't changed. You know, we did a a study several years ago on what uh a full scholarship, you know, the room board included, what that would provide an athlete uh to to live off of and found that 80% of athletes would be living below the federal poverty line on those scholarships. uh in the backdrop, all the numbers you mentioned, all the revenue that these athletes are generating.
▶ 0:51:48Um obviously you talk about the motivations and and people wanting to find some way to change the system, whether it be collective bargaining, employee status, all options need to be on the table to make sure that uh athletes are treated fairly. Thank you so much. Um, despite the incredible financial hardship experienced by many division one athletes, the NCAA has long argued that the system is fair because they're student athletes and often get the value of educational scholarships at their institutions. So, the free housing that we talked about, the free meal plan. However, Mr.
▶ 0:52:17Huma uh Humea, I'm I'm not sure if most Americans realize that college athletes like division one football, basketball, and volleyball players are managing the equivalent of a full-time job on top of their academics. While the public only sees them for a couple hours on television, athletes are putting in countless hours throughout the week. Very quickly, could you just describe what a typical schedule of a D1 athlete would look like? Well, first of all, it's year round. Year round. You see them during the season on game day maybe on TV. Um, but it's year- round workouts, early morning rises, you finish late.
▶ 0:52:45Um, the Pack 12 did a survey of their athletes and the average athlete across all sports reported spending 50 hours a week on their sport alone. Wow. So, yes, full-time job. Absolutely. And then a full-time student as well. Correct. Thank you. Based on your on the schedule you're describing, is it realistic to think that most D1 athletes can equally balance school and athletics while in session? No. No. I mean, athletics takes priorities. And in terms of degree completion, which is one of the goals for us to uh improve, they need more time to graduate on the back end.
▶ 0:53:15They need less time, less responsibilities put on their shoulders while they're athletes. And um you know, without that, you're going to have you're going to continue to have lower graduation rates than you otherwise would. Thank you, Mr. Cuma. Um, as many of my colleagues have pointed out, a one-sizefits-all regulatory approach may prove difficult given the diverse portfolio of sports, divisions, and athletic conferences uh the NCA represents. But giving these young people the right to bargain for better wages and hours and work conditions isn't that difficult.
▶ 0:53:42It's long past time that we cut the games and start calling out this billion dollar business for what it is, student athlete exploitation. I thank you all so much for your testimony and for being with us today. Um, and I yield back. Thank the gentle lady. Now I recognize myself for five minutes of questions. Uh I'm glad the subcommittee is holding this hearing to discuss the future of college athletics. I don't see the future as bright if we don't get some control and understanding what athletics are for.
▶ 0:54:12And as a former athlete myself, not at the highest level, but the impact in my life was very positive. The athletics encouraged my academics which was the highest priority. Miss Winn, I appreciated your testimony that really was is the essence of athletics and scholarship. Um before I ask questions to our witnesses, I did want to bring up one college sports related issue that I've heard a lot about from my constituents.
▶ 0:54:40Division 1 and two college athletes who are awarded scholarships at our universities are increasingly coming from other countries. According to NCAA data, international student athlete participation has increased by 145% since 2001. One example is division 1 men's and women's tennis where foreign athletes make up over 60% of overall participants. In men's and women's ice hockey, they make up over a third.
▶ 0:55:10Sadly, college sports has become big big business, and there's an increasing pressure to recruit foreign athletes to make money and win games. Unfortunately, these scholarship opportunities have come at the expense of Americanborn student athletes. This is additionally troublesome because in the United States, college athletics part partially serve as America's Olympic development program.
▶ 0:55:34In the 2024 Paris Olympics, 65% of the US Olympic team were current, former, or incoming NCA student athletes. The increasing number of foreign athletes in college sports jeopardizes opportunities for American athletes and the global competitiveness of our athletic programs. Having said that, Mr. Nash.
▶ 0:55:59Proponents of classifying student athletes as employees have cited the substantial amount of revenue that certain college sports programs bring in and the potential for revenue sharing with these athletes as reasons for employment status. What does the law say regarding whether revenue generation is a factor in determining employment status? Thank you.
▶ 0:56:24The law has been very clear that the amount of revenue that an organization receives is not a factor in determining whether someone is or is not an employee if it if it otherwise if it was businesses that lose money could claim that they shouldn't have to pay their employees. What matters and the Supreme Court has made this clear many times is whether someone meets the test or the definition of a common law employee.
▶ 0:56:49Um, student athletes for decades have been recognized as not meeting that test and the fact that revenue has increased in sports like football or basketball shouldn't be ch a basis for changing that law. Appreciate that. Mr.
▶ 0:57:06M Mc Williams Parker uh in your written testimony you state that reclassifying student athletes as employees would place an even greater strain on already strapped athletic department budgets. What are some of the measures that athletic partners may have to take in response to an employment model for our member institutions? And I would just speak for my colleagues as H.B.CU.
▶ 0:57:33I mean, our conversation is, will we be able to sustain sports? Will we be able to continue to give scholarships? Will we have to reduce that? Um, I think there's a high concern that we're already operating in deficits. So, all this money and revenue we're hearing about, that's not funneling to smaller division schools, division 2 schools, all the gate receipts that you see, we're all running deficits. And there would be a concern that we wouldn't be able to keep up.
▶ 0:58:02And so eliminating sports and as we know sometimes the Olympic sports and women's sports go first and that would be tragic to see when that opportunity for myself and Miss Wyn those are the concerns that we have. We can't keep up with the masses of what you all are talking about. We just want to give these students an opportunity like I had to play their sport and to be able to get their college degree and to represent like Miss McBth is today and myself.
▶ 0:58:29As a student athlete, why did you undertake athletics with the purpose of being a student? As I heard a student say the other day and as I would say, sports saved my life. It gave me an opportunity that nothing else did. I I could have done a lot of different things, but it was the pathway for my family for me to get a college degree and to be able to to make impact and to be prepared to be a commissioner today. Um I'm no different than any of my other colleagues.
▶ 0:58:59I just have a smaller representation of um of what you all see on a broader side of what you watched in March March Madness. So the opportunity to to play sport and to have col and to have teammates and to lead and to guide and to go through that strenuous work every single day um have necessary. Thank you. My time is expired, but I wanted to hear that you wanted to be a student athlete, but student first. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 0:59:28Now, I recognize ranking member Bobby Scott from Virginia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, M. Um, McWills Parker, you mentioned the CIAA. Um uh in terms of revenue, do the teams make a lot of money for the schools? Um no. Is that typical for D2 and D3 schools? Very typical.
▶ 0:59:59Do you pay your coaches millions of dollars a year? Absolutely not. Okay. Uh Mr. Wha, you mentioned the schedule for a a typical athlete. um after um after college or after their eligibility ends, what happens to those Well, it depends. Some graduate, some don't. You know, with the you know, the the reality is that universities recruit these athletes.
▶ 1:00:29Some of them are less prepared academically than regular students. That's just a fact. Um but those universities still have a responsibility to create a realistic pathway for them to graduate. And unfortunately, many of them don't. So um you have increased time demands when it comes with athletics put on the shoulders of students who are less prepared and often times you get poor graduation rates.
▶ 1:00:50Many of these athletes that generate all this money uh in division one they don't graduate and although there's a lot of verbal promises there's no teeth for schools to actually allow them to complete their degree and many athletes don't have the opportunity. So uh after that don't really know but you know that's that's kind of the scenario. as some go into professional sports. How many um turn pro? Less than 2%.
▶ 1:01:17So the other 98% the other 98% they pour all their heart and soul into generating this money, but not all of them graduate. Now, is it possible for an to be an employee under the National Labor Relations Act and not under the Fair Labor Standards Act where you could have a voice as a union but not um have the burden on the school for minimum wage overtime and other things? It is possible.
▶ 1:01:47Every school would have every team would have its own test. You know, just because let's say Dartmouth or USC athletes, football, basketball players are recognized as employees, it doesn't automatically mean anyone in division two or even other division one teams or sports uh would be recognized as employees. They'd have to first of all, the athletes would have to want to join a union. If one team had a union, it doesn't automatically place everyone else in a union.
▶ 1:02:12Uh second secondly, if a school did have a team where there was a unit, say division two even, um the the school doesn't have to enter into a collective bargaining agreement if it feels like it can't afford what the athletes are asking for. It's an agreement. Two sides have to agree. So, um and I would also point out that none of the employment issues um involving NRB affect Division 2. There's no campaigns.
▶ 1:02:38division 2 really has not been in um the uh I guess crosshairs if you can say but you know if they were at this at that point the point is is that universities don't have to agree to do anything they can't afford um and again athletes have if a softball player at Oklahoma State doesn't want to be in a union they don't have to be but for those that feel like there's a need uh whether it be health and safety um whether it be compensation issues they should have the option to do that if by law.
▶ 1:03:08If the law recognizes them as they could bargain for workers compensation coverage for injuries. What happens now with um if an athlete is injured? Right now, it depends on the school. The school, it's always optional. You know, in division one, they've passed what is another uninforced standard. You know, there are safety guidelines that aren't enforced. Division one recently said any division one school is supposed to be able to pay for the medical expenses while the athletes are there. There's nothing enforceable about that.
▶ 1:03:38We've had athletes for years come to us um with out-of- pocket medical expenses their schools don't cover. Uh some of those bills go into collections and they don't find that out until they're trying to buy their first car. So, uh it's a very deceptive industry, but a a collective bar bargaining agreement is a legally binding agreement. If a school says we're going to pay for your medical, then um it's ironclad. What happens to disability? That's really, you know, there's nothing there for the athletes unless they're catastrophically injured.
▶ 1:04:08Um, which means $90,000 in um deductible payments, which very few injuries reach. So, there's been studies finding that about 50% of division one athletes across all sports suffer chronic injuries. Uh, most of those athletes have no assistance when they're done. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, gentlemen. And I recognize gentle lady from North Carolina, Miss Fox. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here today. Mr.
▶ 1:04:37Nash, in profit generating college sports, we already see a trend of student athletes staying long past the typical four years of eligibility. This is for some athletes to maximize time in college athletics to profit as long as possible, as if it were a full-time job. How might this problem be exacerbated if all student athletes are considered employees? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:05:07Uh, I I think there would be a real danger in that problem being exacerbated because there would one subject of collective bargaining if it were to be allowed would be to remove the eligibility rules and and and and demand that student athletes be able to uh participate as long as as long as they like. It would be a potential subject of bargaining. What impact do you believe this trend has on the overall educational mission of university?
▶ 1:05:38Well, I I I I think there's no question that the the movement to reclassifying student athletes as employees has a a significant uh potential to to interfere with with education. We we've seen that in the cases that have been brought before the NLRB.
▶ 1:05:57Uh we saw that in in in in the USC case where the general counsel of the NLRB challenged the USC student athlete handbook which provided the students with guidance on on on how to deal with interviews and social media and encouraged them to speak positively about their teammates and and and be careful about not posting things that could follow you for life.
▶ 1:06:22according to the NLRB and the CA complaint that they issued against uh USC that violated the labor laws if they were employees. Thank you, Miss Wyn. Some have noted that the trend of professional student athletes could lead to fewer roster spots for freshmen or transfers.
▶ 1:06:41As a former student athlete, does this trend concern I think that this trend does concern me and it concerns my counterparts, other student athletes, because we are not in favor of cutting athletic So, in your written testimony, you mentioned the importance of academics during your time as a student athlete at Oklahoma State University.
▶ 1:07:06Can you discuss your academic experience as a student athlete and as part of that how might the importance of academics change if student athletes are deemed to be My academic experience was certainly a high point of my career.
▶ 1:07:24Um I studied strategic communications in undergrad and um during that time my coach also was very um supportive of joining extracurricular clubs as well. So I had the ability to join um an advertising club in my college. Um my coaches took academics very seriously when we were um playing on the road.
▶ 1:07:48We had study halls on the road um with each other and um even our academic adviserss would travel with us to ensure that we had the most adequate resources at all times. Um and they demonstrated a very healthy balance between my athletic experience and my academic experience. Well, that's wonderful to hear that there was that emphasis on your academics.
▶ 1:08:13Uh, Miss Mc Williams Parker, academic achievement and professional development have been the primary purpose of post-secary education and the student athlete experience. What educational and other benefits do student athletes gain from their athletic experience? And how does this experience help them in their future careers? I I I would say that the whole team concept of being on a team, that experience by itself is pretty powerful.
▶ 1:08:43You learn leadership, you learn perseverance. I mean, even in these discussions of injury and being hungry and all those other things. I mean, there is something about athletics that defines who we are as a country um and as we are as as a community and to provide access and opportunity for our student athletes, whether it's careers. I mean, part of my in my institution helped me get a post-graduate scholarship to go get my degree at Temple.
▶ 1:09:08I've never had to pay for college except that one year that I talked about as a walk-on careers as we have partners and sponsors. I mean, we have pathways to help them get internships and those types of opportunities. So, there's just so many benefits of being a student athlete, not just on the court, but also off the court. And as leaders and administrators, we have that responsibilities to support that effort. Well, thank you very much. Uh my grandson was on the track team.
▶ 1:09:35He was a thrower um in high school and in college and uh I think he learned a lot about teamwork and he also told said if the coach if you show the coach told him if you show up on time you're late show up 10 minutes early. That is a wonderful characteristic to have in our country. Thank you very much and I appreciate it. I thank the gentle lady and I recognize the ranking member representative from California. Thank you.
▶ 1:10:04I want to thank all the witnesses again. A terrific testimony. Um, Mr. Huma, a lot has changed other than you've gone from a linebacker's building, five meals a day to three in a DB. Uh, but you could you talk a little bit about I mean in our in sports there's been lots of arguments for decades about what is an amateur, whether it's the Olympics or college athletics, and what's a professional.
▶ 1:10:29what has changed from your perspective um to make this a more acute need to define the boundaries of professionalism and amateurism. Uh thanks for that question. I think you know today uh the high the high college high revenue college sports are almost indistinguishable from the pros. Obviously, college is is involved, but besides that, again, it was mentioned just yesterday, there was a hearing because there was legal pressure. Again, one of the avenues to fight against this injustice.
▶ 1:10:59The NCA power five conferences are being pushed to finally share revenue with athletes. Um, and as we speak right now, there's recruits 16, 17 years old being signed by by schools right now to professional agreements. So, um, and that's a good thing. That's a great development. And that that's now something even the schools are celebrating. they kind of have to because they have no choice. But hey, we're there. And that was because athletes rights were not taken away by Congress.
▶ 1:11:25Um, and I will point out as an athlete, all the athletes we work with, um, there are very special things about college sports, you know, but amateurism has nothing to do with it. Has nothing to do with it. You can learn leadership if you're an employee. You know, you can learn all the different things we're talked about today. Teamwork, camaraderie, that doesn't go away because someone has rights, because someone's an employee. you know, the ability to play at a high level uh and pursue a degree. That's really what makes college sports special.
▶ 1:11:52And I think if you dissect what everyone's talking about here, that's what is there. The employee status issue does not negate that. It doesn't take away from being an a student. You have students in bookstores at all the schools we're talking about. They're employees. You have some students on these campuses that actually have the right to form a union, but we're not here talking about that. This is about uh taking away rights from athletes so that they're not empowered to make the changes this industry has never wanted to make.
▶ 1:12:19You know, the first year that we actually announced what we're doing, within months, three football players died in the offseason workouts. And since then, there's been death after death after death. You can set your watch to it. That's the very next year I testified in Congress, 2002, begging Congress, please do something. And nothing's been done. And there's been individuals that have talked about it and I was I was um really in agreement with much of what Congressman uh Bombgardner said today there Congress, you have the votes.
▶ 1:12:49You can solve these issues and we and this is what I'm here pleading for on behalf of all the families that have suffered and the and the families that will suffer if Congress doesn't act. So my district is next to uh the mothership of the University of California.
▶ 1:13:05Um so when I talk to people in the football program at Berkeley or a very dear friend who's coached the rugby team um sort of the rugby program in the United States this challenge doesn't to Mr. Bungarden's comments and Mr. ashes too.
▶ 1:13:24There there seems to be an ability to fix this the idea of pooling the revenue to make sure that these minor sports that's a misnomer from my perspective having been a lacrosse player many years ago um to get all the benefits that you've talked about. So there does in your comments about your agreement. I'm in agreement too, but beyond that is these questions and we've always sort of mythologized the Rudies of the world, but then underlying and that's not just unique to college athletics.
▶ 1:13:52There are the issues you mentioned about sexual exploitation, harassment, um just harassment of people in the program anyways. But defining that as opposed to what Miss Williams talked about is dealing with adversity, that's legitimate adversity.
▶ 1:14:09So there strikes me as sort of the challenge we have here is making this work, but also making sure that some of the cultures that we've um unfortunately dealt with for too long don't get addressed and the athletes have a chance to defend themselves as an employee would. Absolutely.
▶ 1:14:27I think there's a big difference between uh the challenges that make us stronger in co as a college athlete, you know, dealing with adversity within a normal realm, but that adversity should not include sexual assault, you know, and and UC Berkeley, that was one of I could have listed names, but UC Berkeley 2014, Tedigu passed away. The university admitted negligence.
▶ 1:14:48Now the trainer that oversaw that workout was the same trainer at Central Florida just a few years before that saw oversaw another workout death among similar circumstances sickle cell which is completely preventable and that trainer could be anywhere today you know so that is not the type of adversity that people can walk off that family's devastated Ted's gone thank you I yel back I thank the gentleman I recognize a gentle lady from Michigan Mlan thank you Mr.
▶ 1:15:16chairman and thank you all for being today. Really what I want to talk about is the difference between employment status and non-employment status for the athletes. So I if if you could start and Miss Wyn, I'll start with you. What is the advantage of making student athletes employees versus non-employees or disadvantage from your perspective?
▶ 1:15:46Um, from my perspective, I think that employment status yields more disadvantages than they do advantages because the majority of us student athletes, and I'm here representing the female student athletes and Olympic sports as well.
▶ 1:16:01And I think that employment status, it will it will shift the freedom for student athletes to explore academic interests, transfer capabilities, um or just playing for the love of the game and replace that with um legal contracts, performance pressures, financial decisions.
▶ 1:16:22And I know myself, I signed my NLI at 16 years old and so I was very young and I started my freshman year as a 17-year-old student. So opening those conversations even to minors, I feel like that is that's a dangerous future in my opinion. Okay. I mean yesterday um in your order to protect the balance, right?
▶ 1:16:47I I introduced the pro protecting student athletes economic freedom act which clarifies that a student athlete is not an employee of a college conference or other associations. Miss Mc Williams Parker, how would you or excuse me, how would this is kind of awkward, but ununionization of student athletes impact the school's ability to support their students and academic programs?
▶ 1:17:17Yeah, thank you for that question. And I I think about the opportunity to continue to give them scholarships, you know, even the cost of the academic sport uh support um the regular mental health services that we have, the training support that is needed, um the media support, career development success. I mean, all of those things are going to be possibly compromised because of the cost associated with it from that department, athletics department.
▶ 1:17:46I mean I I shared earlier all our departments are already operating in a deficit. So the more strain that we put on financially to provide those resources on top of additional resources, there would be some concern. But what do you say to the to the folks that say, "But we we have to protect these athletes." I don't know why we don't think we're not protecting them already. I work in college athletics.
▶ 1:18:10My job every day is to protect student athletes, give them the best opportunity to participate in championships, and make sure that we have the staffing and the support they need. We're talking about different subsets of institutions. We've got private, we've got public, we've got larger, we got smaller, we got bigger resources, and we've got limited resources. I'm in limited resources. And so, we need to protect those limited resources institutions by making sure we can sustain opportunities for students like Miss Wyn who come to some of our schools.
▶ 1:18:39So, if I'm understanding it correctly, you think as a student athlete or a former student athlete, uh, being an employee is not a good thing. And as an administrator, you also agree with that. Absolutely. I mean, we're protecting the Olympic sports. We're protecting Title N. And Title N is not about women. It's also about our men. We're trying to protect the disparity of the playing field.
▶ 1:19:08I mean there's a lot of um implications here on paying student athletes. So you ha you actually have some trust in people. You have some trust in in the athletes. You have some trust in each other. You don't need big brother in essence to come in and and regulate everything despite what everybody says. I am part of the NCAA. I am the NCAA.
▶ 1:19:29I'm one of the administrators that sits around the table like you all do to make policies and processes and procedures so that our institutions and student athletes can have that experience. Our student athletes around the table. We have leadership around the table. And should we be getting better? Absolutely. Are we getting better? Absolutely. Are these conversations helpful to help us guide in the path of getting better? Absolutely.
▶ 1:19:53So just just to be clear and I'm being a little sarcastic which I I don't mean mean to be but you have the athletes who participate, you have the administrators, you mean you actually collaborate to find out what the best course of action is and you guys are can do that right now. Absolutely we are doing it. That's great. Good for you. I applaud you. Thank you. I mean I think we need to get back into having a little bit of faith into our people. Um, thank you.
▶ 1:20:23I I know I'm over time, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you all. Thank the gentle lady. Now, I recognize the gentle lady from Connecticut, Representative Hayes. Thank you, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today to testify. I apologize for coming in late um juggling multiple hearings. Um, college athletics has become a multi-billion dollar industry with the National Collegiate Athletic Association or the NCAA bringing in nearly 1.4 4 billion in revenue in 2024.
▶ 1:20:53I can tell you that I have absolute faith in college sports being from the basketball championship of the world where our Yukon women just won a 12th national title. It is the only sport we have our Yukon our college athletes is Connecticut. I mean, we have Connecticut Sun now, but college athletics is Connecticut sports. And this is a conversation we have often at home.
▶ 1:21:17And immediately after that win, one of the things that coach Orio spoke about was the disparities for college athletes. So, it is very fitting that we're having this hearing here today. For many young people, an an athletic scholarship can be a pathway out of poverty. But a scholarship alone does not help an athlete trying to feed themselves or provide for their families back at home. These scholarships are typically contingent upon an athlete being enrolled as a full-time student and meeting specific academic requirements.
▶ 1:21:48Across various sports and divisions, college athletics report spending between 30 College athletes report spending between 30 to 50 hours a week on athletic activities despite NCAA caps on the number of hours athletes may engage in quote countable athletically related activities.
▶ 1:22:06In fact, many athletes report feeling pressured to attend so-called voluntary athletic sessions for fear of retaliation, or they're worried they may lose their spot on their team or incur a broader punishment for their teammates. This is an incredible level of control over how a person spends their time and fulfills the basic requirements of being a member of a team.
▶ 1:22:28While a large part of the conversation around college athletics and collective bargaining centers around monetary compensation, a union also provides security for its members when facing excessive demands. Mr. Uma, could you please explain how union representation could help athletes pressured to invest excessive hours in outside activities? Absolutely.
▶ 1:22:50I mean, if you look at the pros, um, they they have unions and I think that many people watching today would love if their sibling, child, if they were in the pros, and they have unions, and they they negotiate uh how long their time demands are on their athletics.
▶ 1:23:07So I think first and foremost uh anyone that has concern about the overemphasis of athletics uh overcoming academics and affecting graduation rates um has to recognize that the athletes if they had a union and could collectively bargain could try to reduce hours that are required of them. Thank you. There are more than 500,000 NCAA college athletes but fewer than 2% of them will go on to play sports professionally.
▶ 1:23:34The NCAA the NCAA has pointed this out in social media campaigns in recent years. The demands of an athletic schedule can often stand in the way of a student pursuing internships, career workshops, and other types of training that will help them in their post-graduate years. Every college athlete should have the flexibility to ensure that they can pursue their dreams of playing collegiate sports and invest in their futures after college. Unions provide their members with the seat at the table and can do the same for college athletes.
▶ 1:24:05Mr. Uma, what benefits could union representation offer so that college athletes can prioritize their academics and postcol goals while meeting the vigor of an athletic schedule? And that's a great question. You know, beyond just reducing the time demands, um there could be ironclad agreements that ensure that their scholarship isn't revocable at each year. that a coach can't quote unquote fire you or run you off because uh despite the promises and the rhetoric that if athletes are become employees they could suddenly be fired.
▶ 1:24:35They're getting fired all the time for years and years. The coach creates a hostile work environment breaks the athlete mentally to the point where they want to transfer or quit their sport altogether. um that can be negotiated the terms of whether you know a person could be fired or not and that is as we've mentioned tied to your educational opportunity uh post post uh eligibility as well if you need another semester or two to graduate because you've been dealing with such high athletic demands that could be negotiated you know um how about an extra couple years to
▶ 1:25:05graduate again not as a verbal promise that no one's enforcing but under an agreement. Thank you. And like I said, in from a state like Connecticut where college sports, college athletes is our sport, they're making big money right now in Connecticut off of this championship. I yield back. Thank you. The gentle lady yields back. The chair recognizes himself for five minutes.
▶ 1:25:30You know, I think the question at this hearing today is whether NCAA college sports are farm teams or mere farm teams for the pros. Uh in Missouri, we have taken a position on that this issue. In July of 2023, Governor Mike Parson signed into law legislation clarifying that student athletes at Missouri's college colleges and universities are not employees. Um Mr.
▶ 1:25:56Nash, as you point out in your written testimony, there have been efforts in recent years to reclassify student athletes as employees and allow for collective bargaining. Supporters of these efforts often cite professional sports teams as as the model. We've heard that quite a bit today. Do you agree with claims that student athletes are no different than professional athletes and should be treated as such in the eyes of the law, especially division one sports uh that generate a lot of revenue? Thank you.
▶ 1:26:26Uh no I I don't I don't think that student athletes uh at the college level are remotely equivalent to professional athletes for the simple reason professional athletes are not required or not admitted as students under academic standards at a university. They their their sole focus is to play their sport. A college athlete and I defer to Miss Wyn on on on this. She's in a better position to speak than me.
▶ 1:26:53A college athlete has to be admitted as a student, has to continue to um progress towards a degree. Um and and there is a tremendous amount of focus on their education. Yeah. Don't you find it ironic that all this discussion of of employment and the unionization. It centers around division sports that are profitable and as you point out in two sports, basketball and football.
▶ 1:27:20What about the where's the solit solicitousness of the workers rights in all the other sports that aren't profitable? Well, that's that's a that's that's a good question and that's I think the probably the biggest problem that I see with the effort to turn um student athletes into professionals.
▶ 1:27:38um it it just simply ignores that the arguments that are that are that are being made really are focused on just the the so-called high revenue sports and really on just a few individual athletes in those the sort of professional free agent kind of model uh while ignoring all the other sports. Yeah. And that's something I wanted to address.
▶ 1:27:58Representative Hayes pointed out, and I I I'll correct me if this is not correct, that the NCAA um had revenues in 2024 of $1.4 billion. Um do you know what what percentage of um of athletic programs are profitable? And you could express that any way you you wish.
▶ 1:28:20It's my understanding that not even all football or basketball programs are profitable to the schools, much less lacrosse, crosscountry wrestling, and so forth. I I'd defer to the NCA and the colleges on that, but I think your your the assumption your question is actually quite correct. One I one example I can give you is in the NLRB case involving University of Southern California.
▶ 1:28:45Focus there was on football and basketball but the evidence in the case showed that the revenue from those sports not only supported the more than 20 other sports. Um the athletic department as a whole according to the reports that were provided to the education department um operates at a loss. So the revenue did not even support all of the sports and required further assistance further financial support from the university. Yes. Yes. That's what when you see a big number like 1.4 billion.
▶ 1:29:14Okay, that's revenue. What's what's expense? And then to the extent revenue exceeds expense in the nonprofit world, we don't call that profit. But uh what is that revenue used for? And and other things like supporting the sports that aren't profitable. Um Mr. Yuma um you you cited um deaths in college athletics and training and so on. Uh cause of death generally cardiac issues, heat stroke, what what is it? What is it generally?
▶ 1:29:43So cardiac uh heat illness, cickle cell related, um even asthma things that the deaths we're concerned with are preventable, you know, and sometimes, you know, there's risk inherent in sports, but preventable deaths are still around, unfortunately. Yeah.
▶ 1:30:00I so I am I am a medical doctor and I actually have a son with congenital heart disease and his congenal heart disease was very obvious at birth but um there are congenital heart diseases some of which can be uh tested by discovered by pre-screening and precautions taken and probably in most cases not participating at in athletics at that level among other things. is do are you aware is there screening right now at the NCAA level for for these undiagnosed congenital heart problems?
▶ 1:30:30Um no but what's interesting is that now they're screening for cickle cell for instance right and that has um given the athletic programs the ability to say hey this athlete has cickle cell let's make sure we follow the protocols and workouts but with Bucknell University Calvin uh Calvin Dicki Jr. had that their athletics program knew but they didn't follow protocols. Okay. And and and he and he passed away. Yeah. Thank you. My time is expired. I yield back.
▶ 1:30:57Uh the chair rec next uh recognizes the ranking member for a closing statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you um and our all all of us uh for being here. I really want to thank the witnesses again. Um, one just observation in the last conversation is one of the threats to minor league sports is these subsidies that come from those big sports.
▶ 1:31:24There are some instances where there's more pressure to get rid of minor sports so that that money stays in those two big programs. So, we want to keep those minor sports going. We have to have an honest conversation about all of this.
▶ 1:31:37And I'm encouraged by some of the conversation today that there's an acknowledgement to keep your experiences, my experiences um healthy by making sure that this revenue continues to be generated in a such a way that it it continues to support this larger really beneficial culture in college sports for all the college athletes. As I said earlier, our priority in this committee must always be the health and well-being of the college athletes.
▶ 1:32:08Uh that benefits everyone, but particularly they should be uh the focus of our attention. It is our responsibility to stand with these students as they stand for themselves. College sports have changed since the days of amateurism and leather helmets. As many athletes suffer exploitation and abuse, it should come as no shock that many are attempting to exercise their right to defend themselves and organize for their own protection.
▶ 1:32:34College athletes are not a monolith, as we've talked about today and should not be treated as such. It would be inappropriate to ban all athletes from being classified as employees, just as it would be inappropriate to call every single college athlete an employee. College athletics exists on a spectrum and employment issues should be addressed according to existing labor laws.
▶ 1:32:59As we speak, the current administration is attacking higher education and that also creates a vulnerability for the college student. So, while I'm grateful for the productive discussion on college athletics and I see a potential for us on this committee and on the other committees of jurisdiction to come up with a meaningful solution, Mr. Mr. Chairman, let us not forget that one of the biggest problems and threats facing public education today is not college athletes unionizing.
▶ 1:33:27It is the policies and priorities of the current administration. Thank you and I yel I thank the ranking member and uh now I'd like to uh make my closing statement. Um first um you know if there's any polling available from NCAA from student athletes on their um uh interest in joining or not joining a union.
▶ 1:33:55I would like to uh for the committee to do the research on that and let's get uh that polling so we can kind of you know hear from the athletes themselves on what uh uh what they're thinking about this and uh then certainly from your comment about the uh Department of Education uh we're spending more money than any other nation and we're losing ground rapidly in education.
▶ 1:34:23So, we got a lot of work to do on this committee and I agree with you, ranking member, that we've we've got to correct that uh uh that process. Um, but we've learned a lot today and uh in how about student athletes and how they'd be negatively affected if they were classified as employees. Obviously, we don't we we don't want our athletes in danger and we need to speak to that as well.
▶ 1:34:52Employee status would harm these athletes by restricting their freedoms, altering their significant benefits they currently enjoy, undermining non-revenue generating sports, triggering unintended consequences like taxing scholarships and taking the focus off education which I said earlier should be our number one uh which is central uh and and really the whole reason for the student athlete experience. I mean it was college first then athletics.
▶ 1:35:21I believe is the way it all got started. Uh in response, our committee colleague from Michigan, Representative Lisa Mlan, introduced the Protecting Students Athletes Economic Freedom Act, which would shield student athletes from misguided efforts to deem them to be employees. It is my hope that my committee colleagues will join this effort and continue to work together with our colleagues on other committees to find solutions that ensure the viability of college sports for future generations.
▶ 1:35:52I would like to thank our witnesses again for taking the time to testify before the subcommittee today. And without objection, there being no further business, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you. Like I said, appreciate his mic gets turned off.