▶ 0:14:41The subcommittee on space and aeronautics will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time. Welcome to today's hearing entitled Leveraging Commercial Innovation for Lunal Exploration, a review of NASA's clips initiative. I recognize myself for a five-minute statement. I would like to welcome everyone to today's subcommittee. This hearing is like our last is focused on NASA's return to the moon this decade.
▶ 0:15:11Today's topic is review of NASA's commercial lunar payload services program commonly known as eclipse. The world marveled at the stunning imagery captured last month by the Firefly, aerospace blue ghost probe, and intuitive machines, Athena probes, lunar sunrises and sunsets, earth rises, and even a solar eclipse seen from the surface of the moon.
▶ 0:15:33But beyond the beauty was purpose, these missions are advancing scientific discovery and paving the way for American astronauts to return to the moon and increasingly so in the future. Unlike during the Apollo program, NASA is returning to the moon with the help of commercial and international partners. As we have heard from our last meeting, the Artemis program will be involving NASA purchase services from commercial vendors instead of owning all of its assets itself.
▶ 0:16:00One key area where NASA is applying this strategy is by partnering with commercial providers for science missions around the moon and to its surface. There is still much to learn about the moon before we return, engaging in science missions. Now we will elab now now will enable our astronauts to conduct better science when they are on the lunar surface. The rationale for the eclipse is simple. Instead of developing its own lunar lander, NASA acquires payload delivery services to the lunar surface.
▶ 0:16:30This program also promotes collaboration with US commercial ventures to support NASA's lunar explanation goals, ensuring that the technology and services are deployed and developed domestically. For the selection process, NASA chooses from a group of US-based providers for missions to all parts of the moon. These providers are responsible for supplying end-to-end services from launch to operation the lander on the lunar surface.
▶ 0:16:56Under clips, NASA can be one of multiple payloads sent to the moon, allowing companies to fill excess capacity however they deem appropriate. Additionally, clips provides an opportunity for the other mission directorates within NASA to prove out technologies before humans return to the moon. However, NASA assumes increased risk by taking this commercial approach. Not every mission has been successful to date and several instruments have not been successfully tested as a result.
▶ 0:17:26We have seen providers go out of business, schedule delays and cost increases associated with clips. To date, NASA has issued 11 task orders for f 50 instruments to be delivered to the lunar surface by 2028. We've now had four eclipse missions, including two landing attempts in the last month. I will note all those came from Florida's space coast.
▶ 0:17:50These launches give get give Congress an opportunity to evaluate whether Eclipse has operated as intended, whether this program should consider directing future changes to the program. The subcommittee will also hear lessons learned from NASA and our commercial providers, exploring whether this innovative approach to partnering with commercial sector could be applied to other agencies and areas as well. We are joined today by three companies that have launched Eclipse missions to date.
▶ 0:18:19Firefly Aerospace, Aerobotic Technologies, and Intuitive Machines. Their insights into how they have partnered with NASA as well as their future plans will benefit the subcommittee, and I look forward to hearing their feedback and recommendations. I thank all of our witnesses for today for joining us. And we will move on to of course our comments from our ranking member.
▶ 0:18:44And with that, I recognize the representative from North Carolina, our ranking member, Miss Fushi. You're recognized. Good morning and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding today's hearing on leveraging commercial innovation for lunar exploration. I want to welcome our distinguished witnesses and thank you for being here.
▶ 0:19:04Frequent and affordable access to the moon is crucial if we are to answer fundamental scientific questions about our planet and the conditions as life emerged and for understanding the composition and distribution of lunar volatiles such as water ice that will both deepen our understanding of the building blocks for life on Earth and serve as an invaluable resource to enable deep space human exploration.
▶ 0:19:33Our ability to routinely deliver payloads to the moon will also help us test technological capabilities and investigate environmental conditions such as lunar dust, regalith, and radiation so that we can prepare to operate safely on the lunar surface prior to landing our astronauts. There is value beyond measure in exploring the moon and the US needs to be there.
▶ 0:20:02We know this and we have been there before. Just as the Apollo project stimulated entire new industries, inspired and attracted generations of worldleading scientists and engineers, and projected a global stature that others still seek to emulate today. I have no doubt that Artemis and initiatives such as clips can be as transformational.
▶ 0:20:29Eclipse is a new approach for accessing the moon and for doing so frequently and affordably through the purchase of commercial delivery services for science and technology payloads. Under clips, NASA steps back, accepts more risk and gives commercial companies greater decisionmaking control. In the last two years, the first four eclipse missions have launched and three have landed on the lunar surface.
▶ 0:20:59With the first set of landings now under our belt, today's hearing is a timely opportunity to consider what we have learned thus far and what is needed for clips to succeed going forward.
▶ 0:21:13In 2024, NASA's Office of Inspector General reviewed the clips initiative and recommended, for example, that NASA develop performance goals and a management plan for clips, as well as recommending NASA assess its role in a commercial lunar delivery market where today NASA is by far the main customer.
▶ 0:21:36I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on how these issues are being In addition, as clips is funded and managed under NASA's science mission directorate or SMD, I am also eager to learn about the scientific returns from clips to date and the potential for clips to help advance lunar science in the most recent National Academyy's planetary science
▶ 0:22:06decal survey. There is much to be excited about with clips for Luna science technology exploration and for bolstering United States commercial capabilities if we get it right. However, there is a shadow clouding our lunar goals and ambitions and it is not a lunar eclipse.
▶ 0:22:29When the Oval Office is wreaking havoc across the federal government, ordering widescale rifts, including at NASA, firing NASA professionals such as the NASA chief scientists and the NASA chief technologist, and threatening to slash NASA's science budget, one can only question whether the Trump administration is committed to United States leadership in lunar science and exploration.
▶ 0:22:55Or is the president content instead to let China establish a presence on the moon, shape the rules of the road, make transformational discoveries, and hand over the keys to lunar exploration by allowing China to plant stakes in the lunar regalith and build the only base camp there. That would be a tragic mistake and it would present grave consequences to our economic and national security.
▶ 0:23:23I can assure you as the ranking member of this subcommittee, I will continue to carry on carry out rigorous oversight and work diligently with my colleagues on the committee to ensure that NASA and its workforce remain strong, that we support a bright and bold future for Luna Science and Exploration and across NASA's portfolio, and that we maintain and sustain United States leadership in space. Thank you, and I yield back. Thank you so much.
▶ 0:23:54And with this, I'd like to recognize our chairman, Chairman Babin, for a statement. You're recognized, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to tell you thank you as well for having this great hearing. And I want to welcome these uh distinguished witnesses that we have here today. And we have the CEOs of three tremendous uh commercial uh space companies that I think are out there breaking ground and uh going to do some great things and already have. So, thank you all for being here.
▶ 0:24:23Uh, a recurring theme in this committee's recent hearings is NASA's collaboration with the private sector. Historically, NASA has opted to procure hardware from its contractors. However, this has shifted with the growth of our commercial space industry. NASA launched the commercial crew and cargo programs to leverage the capabilities of emerging space companies. And through these programs, NASA purchased private sector launch and re-entry capabilities as a commercial service.
▶ 0:24:52As the United States expands its activities beyond low Earth orbit, it's time to consider whether similar procurement model should be applied to activities in cis lunar space. One such model is the commercial lunar payload services initiative or clips. Under clips, NASA buys lunar delivery services from US companies that build and operate their own robotic landers.
▶ 0:25:16Uh NASA obtains these capabilities using a service-based contract model and providers are responsible for ensuring endtoend services for lunar delivery. Under a service-based contract, NASA has limited insight and oversight into the performance of these operations. Traditionally, NASA has significant input into the design and execution of a mission, normally taking great pains to mitigate the risk associated with it.
▶ 0:25:46Clips is unique in this respect. Instead, NASA reduces its risk exposures by selecting clips payloads that are scientifically valuable yet smaller and costeffective, and then it distributes them across multiple missions. In other words, NASA understands and accepts the possibility that a eclipse mission might fail. An approach informally referred to as taking shots on goal.
▶ 0:26:13NASA has had three key objectives for the eclipse initiative. First, enable frequent landings of scientific instruments that can target a range of lunar destinations, providing scientists with diverse data fulfilling decal priorities. Second, to use science and technology demonstration pay uh payloads hosted on clips missions to support NASA's Artemis program.
▶ 0:26:38Third, to assist commercial lunar landing service providers with the goal of making these services more affordable for both NASA and other customers. NASA seeks to open access to the lunar surface and hopefully promote the growth of a lunar economy where it is one of many customers. However, Eclipse has faced its share of challenges.
▶ 0:27:00The initiative has suffered from increased costs and scheduled delays, partially driven by NASA's decision to manifest its Viper spacecraft as a Eclipse payload. NASA has also struggled to establish a stable set of requirements for the landing services and to accept risk as it was intended. So far, three providers have launched four missions under the clips program with varying levels of success.
▶ 0:27:28This hearing presents the committee with an opportunity to review the first seven years of clips and to address important questions such as whether the program is meeting NASA's initial goals, how it supports NASA's science and technology development priorities, and more. Today we will hear from both NASA and clips providers about the practical implementation of the initiative, the adjustments made to it over time, and whether additional changes could improve program.
▶ 0:27:58We can also explore whether the successes and lessons learned from clips uh could inform future commercial procurements at NASA, particularly as this committee works to foster the growth of a thriving US space industry. I look forward to hearing from each of our witnesses today and understanding the perspectives of both customers and providers. And I'm also eager to learn whether policy changes could benefit Clips, NASA, and the commercial industry moving forward. Thank you for your time this morning.
▶ 0:28:28And I yield back, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your insights. Next, we'll move to our ranking member, Congresswoman Florin. Uh, thank you to the chairman and ranking member for this hearing. I support the commercial lunar payload services or clips experiment. We authorized clips in the bipartisan NASA reauthorization act of 2024 and it that overwhelmingly passed the house last September.
▶ 0:28:53But I want to ensure that clips is set up with the best possible chance to succeed and achieve its objectives. That means both supporting a nent commercial lunar delivery system and managing clips strategically to meet well-defined high priority science and technology objectives. We know that supporting clips means being willing to take more risks than a traditional NASA program, but we need to make sure we're taking smart deliberate risks.
▶ 0:29:21In one case, NASA misjudged the risk of jumping to a large complex delivery task order too early in the Eclipse initiative. That cost time and money, and we have a rover still on the ground, not yet doing science on the moon. To that end, I'm interested in hearing today both what NASA intends to do with the Viper rover and also how lessons from that experience are being applied to the clips initiative moving forward.
▶ 0:29:49Uh on a bipartisan basis, this committee did send an inquiry to NASA. Uh we've spent $450 million uh on Viper. it was um when it was terminated. Uh the problem was not with the payload, it was with the launch and I remain concerned about that whole um process.
▶ 0:30:16The science community uh recognizes the potential of clips to address high priority science at the moon, particularly once landing systems have proven to be reliable and to be one component of an integrated planetary science program. Of course, being able to do high priority science and technology at the moon means we need to continue to steward a robust science and technology enterprise to do it. And right now, our worldleading science and technology enterprise is under assault.
▶ 0:30:46There's no other way to describe it. NASA has managed to avoid the largecale cruel absurdity of being forced to fire and then rehire probationary employees. But NASA and the space community still have to contend with grants and contracts canled or in limbo, the abrupt closure of offices, firing of senior science and technology experts experts, and the threats of devastating cuts to the science budget, widespread layoffs, and
▶ 0:31:16closure of facilities. The Trump administration is also dismantling anything and everything that promotes broad access to and participation in the scientific enterprise by all Americans.
▶ 0:31:29The planetary science community chose to open its most recent decal survey, a community census document highly regarded by Congress as well as this committee by pointing out that diversity and access are central to the success of the planetary science enterprise. And now NASA can't even follow the surveys related recommendations. What an embarrassment.
▶ 0:31:53As I said at our first uh space and aeronautics hearing about a month ago, I'm excited about NASA's Aremis campaign. Uh I support our moon to Mars program and I want the United States to succeed in reestablishing a lunar program in preparation for the even more ambitious goal of being the first nation to step foot on Mars. Congress has been clear and committed to this objective, though we need to continue to back that commitment up with the appropriate resources.
▶ 0:32:23The research and commercial oper uh communities also appear to be committed to this objective. The question is when will this administration get with the program and how much lasting damage will they inflict before they do? Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. Thank you, Ranking Member Lkin, for your time. Let me now introduce our witnesses today. Our first witness today is Dr. Nola Fox who serves as the associate administrator for NASA's science mission de directorate.
▶ 0:32:52Our second witness is Dr. Brett Denvi who serves as principal staff scientist at John's Hopkins University's applied physics laboratory. Our third witness is Dr. John Thornton who serves as chief executive or officer for astrobotic technology. Our fourth witness is Mr. Steven Ultimus who serves as president and CEO of Intuitive Machines. Our final witness is Mr.
▶ 0:33:20Jason Kim who serves as chief executive officer for Firefly Aerospace. I'd like to thank each of you for u attending today and speaking with us today. And we will lead off with Dr. Fox. And Dr. Fox, thanks for your hospitality last week. We really enjoyed seeing uh the amazing work you're doing at Goddard. And uh you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to uh to host you and show show you our amazing telescope.
▶ 0:33:46Um so good morning uh Chairman Haropoulos, Ranking Member Fushi and and Chairman Babin and all the distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you so much for hosting us today. It is always a pleasure to be able to talk about the joy of NASA science. Um and particularly this morning the opportunity to discuss NASA's commercial lunar payload services or clips uh initiative. Eclipse is one of NASA's scientists boldest and most innovative programs.
▶ 0:34:12Already we've had four clips launches with two more expected this year and three anticipated uh for the following year. I want to start by really emphasizing that no other nation has done anything similar to the sheer cadence and pace of the NASA eclipse model. Each of these missions demonstrates an American commitment to peaceful exploration of the moon and its intriguing science sites.
▶ 0:34:35NASA Eclipse missions are high-risk, highreward experiments led by our American commercial vendors as we return to the moon in an unprecedented way, opening access to the moon on a scale not seen since the Apollo era. Each clips provider is responsible for payload integration, mission operations, launch and landing services.
▶ 0:34:56They are also encouraged to carry additional commercial payloads alongside our NASA These missions are designed to deliver incredible science and cuttingedge technology demonstrations to the moon surface while also enabling a trailblazing competitive lunar economy with American companies at the forefront of innovation and discovery. This approach accelerates scientific discovery and enables NASA to procure lunar delivery services rapidly and in a costeffective way.
▶ 0:35:25By supporting private sector innovation, NASA's clips initiative strengthens US leadership in space exploration while reducing reliance on governmentbuilt spacecraft. NASA's goal is to eventually be just one of many customers sending deliveries to the lunar surface as we prepare to send humans back to the moon and ultimately to Mars and beyond.
▶ 0:35:47But before we send our astronauts, who of course are our most valuable cargo, before we send them back to the moon, we must understand the lunar environment, identify insitu resources, and test new technologies to ensure safety and sustainability. We learned many lessons during the Apollo era.
▶ 0:36:06The science and technology innovations aboard each eclipse mission ensure that we fill the critical gaps to keep our future spacecraft and most importantly our astronauts safe while also utilizing new resource strategies as we aim for a sustained human presence in deep space and to maintain that US leadership in peaceful space exploration.
▶ 0:36:27It is also important to note that landing on the moon is hard and the missions within the eclipse model are faced with the lofty goal of landing in scientifically strategic locations, most of which humanity has not yet explored. With Eclipse, we see different company strengths and approaches to successfully landing on the moon and operating there for an extended period.
▶ 0:36:49As they succeed, these customers, sorry, as they succeed, these companies will become a community of robotic lander service providers for Artemis, both in the United States and with our Arteimus Accords partners. NASA's eclipse initiative represents a bold shift in how NASA and the United States are approaching space science and planetary exploration as we combine the ingenuity of the private sector with NASA's scientific and technological leadership.
▶ 0:37:17Since its inception, Eclipse has achieved many significant milestones, including the selection of multiple landing mission providers in multiple states, as well as the selection of instrument providers and supply chains across the country. We achieved the first Luna deliveries of commercial science and technology payloads to the lunar surface.
▶ 0:37:36And we have increased private investment in lunar capabilities by incentivizing commercial investment in lunar lander technology that positions American companies as leaders in the growing lunar economy. As we look towards the future clips missions, we will incrementally scale up payload complexity which will carry larger, more sophisticated payloads, including autonomous rovers and insitue resource utilization experiments to prepare for sustainable lunar exploration.
▶ 0:38:05Data collected from clips landers will directly inform human exploration efforts by helping identify safe landing sites, resource deposits, and environmental conditions for Arteimus astronauts. And NASA will continue to foster a competitive lunar economy by encouraging companies to invest in more capable landers and expanded mission services. NASA's clip's mission is really transformational.
▶ 0:38:29It is reshaping lunar exploration alongside American companies to expand scientific discovery, advance national priorities, and enable economic growth both on Earth and now also in space. Continued support for clips will not only advance our understanding of the moon, it will also pave the way for sustainable human exploration. I really appreciate your time today and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Fox. Next, I recognize Dr. Denevi for 5 minutes to present her testimony.
▶ 0:38:59You're recognized. Uh, Chairman Heridopoulos, Ranking Member Fushi, Chairman Bavin, and uh, Ranking Member Lafrren, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the invitation to testify today. Science is a driving motivation for exploring the moon, and clips provides an important means to advance science as the program evolves. For the missions that have already flown as part of this first phase of clips, the initial NASA science payloads were largely simple instruments that needed no or minimal development.
▶ 0:39:30While many in the scientific community were frustrated that the first landers would carry relatively ad hoc assemblages of instruments, that approach was appropriate to the shots on goal risk posture of getting a new series of landers to the moon quickly. and new scientific measurements were collected and are now being analyzed. New technologies were demonstrated. But perhaps most importantly, NASA's investment supported the development of new landers and a new model for science.
▶ 0:39:59The upcoming clips deliveries represent an important evolution. Six payloads are now awaiting launch or are in development, each selected as a focused suite of instruments led by a single PI. These investigations are still modest by NASA SMD standards, but they aim to address long-standing lunar science mysteries like the origin of the moon's magnetic anomalies and its history of vulcanism.
▶ 0:40:25They will benefit from the fact that most will not fly on the first attempt from their clips provider as we should not expect all early landing attempts to succeed. Over the next few years, I think we will see clips start to prove out its ultimate promise of reliable lowercost lunar deliveries. And so we must plan now to ensure NASA's investments in clips will allow us to unlock the kind of transformation transformative science the moon holds.
▶ 0:40:52The planetary science and astrobiology decal survey for example recommends deploying a network of geohysical stations across the moon to understand its interior structure and evolution. It also calls for clips to deliver a long duration rover to the far side to collect samples and deliver them to Aremis astronauts in order to understand how impact bombardment shaped the early evolution of the terrestrial planets.
▶ 0:41:16Moving forward, the success of clips should mean success in accomplishing these kinds of high priority science goals. A note of concern, however, is the uncertain fate of Viper. This fully built rover was to be delivered by clips to the moon's south pole where it would have conducted some of the most important robotic science of the decade by measuring volatiles and exploring their resource potential. Viper was also the most expensive science payload NASA planned to fly via clips.
▶ 0:41:45Its planned delivery on the first Griffin lander was eventually seen as a risk posture misaligned with that investment. Rather than working to find a path forward, NASA canled the rover and is now seeking industry or international partners to deliver it with no NASA funding.
▶ 0:42:02We should not expect Viper science to happen by hoping that someone will offer to fly and operate it on their own dime without NASA support NASA provided support for operations and science Without congressional action to restore Viper, it is likely that China will make the first landed measurements of ice on the moon and test methods for lunar resource utilization with Chongo 7 and 8.
▶ 0:42:27If we are to maintain US leadership in space science, it is critical to lay out and implement a strategic series of scientifically ambitious missions. NASA SMD should prioritize resources for developing the capable science payloads that will be needed and ensure the structure of the lunar and discovery explor and exploration program will allow for unwavering focus on achieving the most important science goals.
▶ 0:42:52Having a clearly laid out path forward for upcoming missions will ensure that we fully realize NASA's lunar investments and it will allow clips providers to plan for how to meet future needs. The moon holds a rich record of our solar systems history and clips can help us to understand that record. We must ensure that we make the most of our current investments to lead in the exploration of the moon and uphold science as a pillar of Artemis. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Davi. I now recognize Mr.
▶ 0:43:22Thornton for five minutes to present his testimony. You're welcome, sir. Thank you, Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Lafrren, Chairman Heridopoulos, Ranking Member Fushi, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to provide an update on astrobotics efforts and plans to support American leadership on the moon. I'd like to share four overarching thoughts with you today. First, the moon is a strategic and economic high ground that will determine space leadership for decades to come. Second, the NASA commercial lunar payload services program is working.
▶ 0:43:51Third, the next iteration of clips can return even greater value to NASA and taxpayers. And fourth, power infrastructure is essential to sustained American presence on the moon. Mr. Chairman, the moon is not just a destination. It is a strategic and economic high ground in an era where lunar access, lunar resource utilization, and the development of near-Earth infrastructure will define global influence for generations to come.
▶ 0:44:15We're at a moment of truth where we must ask ourselves if America will continue to lead the 53 nations that have signed the Artemis Accords, secure access to critical lunar resources, and prevent others from dictating the future beyond Earth orbit, or if we will seed that ground to China, a competitor nation that does not share our values when it comes to free markets, freedom of movement, and democratic principles. Thanks to this committee's steadfast bipartisan support, government and industry have been prioritizing the development of American lunar access through NASA's eclipse initiative.
▶ 0:44:44As we find ourselves in a great powers competition unfolding at Earth's doorstep, I am heartened by the progress and promise of clips. Over the last two years alone, the eclipse program has launched four spacecraft from three US companies, none of which existed two decades ago. There are now six more American lander missions on contract today. And all of this has been done for less than $1.4 billion. The rapid progress we see today is owed to public private partnerships between NASA and American industry.
▶ 0:45:11We've seen bipartisan leadership across three administrations institute, administer, and sustain the clips program. Numerous successive congresses have provided direction and funding to make clips a reality. And multiple NASA mission directorates and centers have developed procurement mechanis mechanisms that make clips landers a reality. For instance, NASA Johnson and Chairman Babin's district has expeditiously procured Eclipse missions at a rate of roughly twice per year.
▶ 0:45:35NASA Marshall in Alabama and NASA Glenn in Ohio have provided their unique test fixtures to assist in preparing our landers for flight. Sensor technology spun out of NASA Langley in Virginia is being integrated aboard Clips landers. Landing algorithms from NASA JPL in California have been used by Clips vendors to assist in their own landing sensors. And of course, clips missions are all launched out of NASA Kennedy in Chairman Heridopoulos's district. Eclipse is precisely why US commercial companies are able to launch land and accomplish what has only been done by five nation states prior.
▶ 0:46:06In Astrobotics's case, we launched the first US lunar lander in more than 50 years in 2024. And while we encountered an anomaly that prevented a moon landing, this mission was still highly valuable, resulting in peer-reviewed science papers. Following Paragan, we have taken lessons learned from flying to CIS lunar space and infused it into our next lander, Griffin. When Griffin launches later this year, it will be the largest lunar lander since Apollo 17 and five times larger than any previously launched Eclipse lander.
▶ 0:46:32It'll carry a thousand plus pound lunar rover from Astrolab, a Californiabased lunar mobility company, and demonstrate its readiness to be an infrastructure workhorse for the nation. The next iteration of Eclipse can return even greater value to NASA. With the first iteration of the 10-year Eclipse initiative nearing a close, now is an excellent time to consider what Eclipse 2.0 initiative should look like. Eclipse 2.0 should begin by taking advantage of mission block buys with existing incumbent clips vendors that are building full clips missions now.
▶ 0:47:00This will enable US lander providers to buy in bulk from their US supply chains and save clips money. Power infrastructure is essential to a permanent American presence on the moon. In addition to clips 2.0, we must also keep an eye to developments that will go a long way to determining which nations will establish a permanent presence on the moon. Eclipse is foundational, but reliable power on the lunar surface will be gamechanging.
▶ 0:47:24The demand for power comes not just from operating spacecraft, but the need for heater power to survive the extreme conditions of lunar night. To meet these demands, Astrobotic is developing a commercial lunar power grid uh called Lunar Grid. We're doing this because we believe America can become a literal source of light in the moon's darkest regions and provide critical infrastructure the world can plug into. By establishing a lunar power grid at the south pole of the moon, we can attract space agencies and businesses from around the globe and make American power the backbone of lunar development.
▶ 0:47:54This will transform the economics of lunar exploration, turning twoe surface missions into sustainable yearslong enterprises. Whether for crude Artemis missions or sustained robotic missions, a permanent power infrastructure is the missing piece for ensuring US leadership on the moon. We urge you to prioritize this in your next NASA authorization act and annual appropriations bills. In closing, I'd like to express my appreciation for the thought, leadership, and policy support this committee has has provided Eclipse over the years, and Astrobotic looks forward to continue serving the nation to the moon and beyond.
▶ 0:48:25Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. Next, we have Mr. Altimus for five minutes to present his testimony. Mr. Altimus, welcome. Thank you very much, chairman, ranking members, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I commend this committee for its foresight in creating and funding NASA's commercial lunar payload services initiative and how it can serve as a blueprint for America's future in space.
▶ 0:48:56Clips drives American entrepreneurial innovation, our best advantage in the space race against China. Our success is a direct result of your support. Intuitive Machines grew from a small think tank into a national asset in just six years with Clips as our catalyst and the moon as our focus. We went public two years ago as a company. A year later, we became the first commercial company to land on the moon on the south pole of the moon.
▶ 0:49:26The following year, we did it again. Both clips missions landing on the moon's inhospitable south pole. a strategic location avoided by previous missions because of risk, yet targeted for American outposts to use the water below the surface. Through these first two missions, we pioneered the first deep space propulsion system capable of using inspace resources for fuel.
▶ 0:49:52We created lightweight composite fuel tanks, adapted AI for autonomous space flight, developed cutting edge capabilities, and validated our lunar data network, the world's most capable commercial deep space communication and navigation network. These validated capabilities are more than shots on goal. We and the Eclipse initiative fundamentally disrupted the economics of landing on the moon through fixed price performance contracts.
▶ 0:50:23Eclipse demonstrates unprecedented value and efficiency to commercial, NASA and other customers. Today, our company's accelerating with a robust financial foundation and diverse customers in different regions of space. If this is how far we can advance American capabilities in just six years, let's ignite action that defines our next generation.
▶ 0:50:46Now is the time to harness American ingenuity with initiatives like clips so United States can compete in the next in this next generation space race. China aims to become the world's top space power by 2045 using space to strengthen its military and economy. If we don't act decisively, we risk losing essential opportunities and advantages. The American entrepreneurial spirit is our greatest ally in outpacing their ambition.
▶ 0:51:14Intuitive machines and clips have demonstrated how commercial ingenuity can accelerate national capabilities, setting the stage for deliberate and strategic lunar To fully capitalize on this approach, we must evolve our public private partnership models across government to reward performance, incentivize rapid progress, and enable private industry to innovate with supportive bureaucracy.
▶ 0:51:40In doing so, clips 2.0 0 may create a national lunar industrialization initiative that aligns performance rewards and larger block buys with a more frequent cadence for delivering infrastructure and services that define how to live and work on the moon. Infrastructure and services aren't new ideas.
▶ 0:52:00their utilities we take for granted on Earth like communications network, navigation systems, energy facilities, larger scale delivery systems and resource extraction technologies that can infuse resources and commodities into our economy. All of these improvements strengthen our national accessibility for science opportunities on and around the moon.
▶ 0:52:22While NASA-driven lunar exploration through clips and Artemis has advanced commercial capabilities, its full potential across broader government objectives remains underutilized. Expanding contracts to serve multiple agencies such as national security and intelligence could maximize efficiency, reduce costs, and enhance innovation through shared investments and multi-use capabilities. I'll give you an example.
▶ 0:52:47Right now, NASA's $4.82 82 billion near space network services contract calls for intuitive machines to provide ground systems and lunar constellation of satellites for communication and navigation services supporting Artemis programs starting next year. These lunar satellites can collect valuable information for national security, not just communications for Artemis. As a country, we are bridging the gap between NASA, DoD, and the commercial industry.
▶ 0:53:15With the right policy, bridging this gap will avoid duplicating cost investments and integrate these already funded assets into national security space initiatives without needing separate program. Change is never easy. It's fraught with difficulty. But the credit belongs to the one who's actually in the arena. Chairman, ranking member, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, we are in the arena and America has the opportunity to lead the next great frontier.
▶ 0:53:44Through your leadership, Intuitive Machines has taken bold steps, demonstrated new technologies, and forged a path forward. Now, we urge Congress to act with the same boldness. Expand E Clips 2.0. Align resources across agencies to foster collaboration that seizes the moment and cements Americans leadership in space for generations to come. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Altimus. Next, we have Mr. Kim. Mr. Kim, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:54:14Chairman Heridopoulos, Ranking Member Fushi, Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Lofrren, and distinguished members of subcommittee. Thank you for keeping America the leader in space exploration and maintaining a robust commercial space industry. A month ago, Blue Ghost inspired America and the world.
▶ 0:54:35When Firefly became the first private company to land successfully on the surface of the moon, thanks to NASA's commercial lunar payload services initiative, we completed the first fully successful lunar surface mission for our nation since the Apollo era. My career launched from a nomination to attend the US Air Force Academy by the late Sam Johnson of the third congressional district of Texas.
▶ 0:54:56I served seven years in the Air Force before entering the private sector where I continue to serve the nation within the industry supporting NASA and National Security Space. Out of the hundreds of space missions I have supported during my career, the proudest moment I've ever experienced was when Blue Ghost softly touched down on the moon. As Americans, we have a responsibility to inspire the next generations of space explorers.
▶ 0:55:21Firefly contacted hundreds of K through 12 schools across the world, sent them posters that read, "Dream big. You never know where you'll land." Teachers, parents, and students sent letters cheering us on and told us they tuned in to the moon landing. Our mission inspired humanity.
▶ 0:55:40Media coverage across the globe showcased Blue Ghost breathtaking imagery of the Earth and the Moon, including the first highdefinition imagery of a lunar landing, as well as the first views of a total eclipse and a lunar sunset seen from the moon surface. With the help of Congress and NASA, Firefly is honored to lead America forward into the stars. Blue Ghost operated 10 NASA payloads, conducting several firstofkind demonstrations.
▶ 0:56:09We tracked GPS signals on the moon, demonstrated new ways to mitigate hazardous lunar dust, robotically drilled a scientific probe into the surface, and more. In total, Firefly sent nearly 120 gigabytes of data back to the Earth. Bold innovation, vertical integration, robust testing, strategic partnerships, and the eclipse commercial model. I believe these are the key factors in the overwhelming success of our Blue Ghost mission.
▶ 0:56:36Our bold innovation is imbued throughout Fireflyy's culture and products. This allowed us to set a US Space Force record with the Victus Knox mission by launching our Alpha rocket after a 24-hour notice. The same boldness was exemplified with Blue Ghost landing on the moon.
▶ 0:56:55Vertical integration of our hardware and processes were instrumental in the success of Blue Ghost with common teams, components, and facilities in Texas, California, Florida, and Virginia. We employ more than 750 Fireflies across the country that these are the innovators that unlock our success. Prior to launch, Blue Ghost underwent robust testing of its systems and hardware.
▶ 0:57:19Our mission controllers prepared for operations by conducting rigorous simulations totaling over 500 hours of rehearsals. Firefly strategy incorporates teammates who are complimentary to our portfolio and key production line. We partner with companies and laboratories including NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory for environment environmental testing, SpaceX for launch and Blue Origin for payloads to name a few. NASA's clips model was the catalyst to our success.
▶ 0:57:48Together, we maximize efficiency and cost and schedule while minimizing risk to the taxpayer. With each successful mission, we identify areas for enhancement. There are three ways Congress and NASA can bolster the Eclipse initiative and stimulate the lunar economy. One, ensure stable multi-year funding commitments for Eclipse to maintain two to three annual missions to the moon.
▶ 0:58:12Two, foster a diverse supply chain and invest in critical spacecraft testing facilities and commercial communication systems that benefit all clips participants. Three, promote the United States as a world leader in space exploration by using the eclipse firm fixed price model for exploration to Mars and beyond.
▶ 0:58:33Fireflies blue mission was an overwhelming success that exceeded Together with NASA and our mission partners, we created a lasting forum for American innovation and inspired generations to dream big. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. Thank you, Mr. Kim. I thank each of the witnesses for their testimony today and I'll I'll reserve five minutes for myself for some questions. I'm going to start with Dr. Fox if I could.
▶ 0:58:59Um, in the eight years since the clip program has begun, what has NASA learned about working with the commercial sector and how can we improve it and get broader commercial engagement? Thank you so much for the question. Uh, we've really leaned forward and embraced working uh with these companies. I think it's really significant that um these companies didn't, you know, they weren't landing things on the moon eight years ago.
▶ 0:59:22So with with using NASA and the innovation and working hand inand with these companies I think we've really seen amazing success and while it is true that we've had maybe varying success on the actual landing you know we we do lessons learned we really look at and we celebrate the the successes of each one um you know I love talking about paragrin everybody says that's a failure to me it isn't that is a company that had never built um space hardware before launched managed to actually
▶ 0:59:52I mean it was a crippled spacecraft. The propulsion system was was not was not working as it was supposed to and yet this team dug in and were able to fly that mission for as long as possible, return as much science as they could. Um John pointed out that you know peer-reviewed papers coming from that mission and then actually safely allow it to re-enter without it coming in over a land mass. And so you know I think there's a lot to actually celebrate with that. We move forward.
▶ 1:00:18We we work with intuitive machines with their um their land is uh getting again as much science as we can even with intuitive machines too. We were able to to uh uh exercise the orre on the grill on the drill sorry on the drill um and show that um it actually works in the lunar environment which is a huge plus for us that that increases the technology development. Um and then of course with Firefly uh just amazing amazing results. Um and so you know we celebrate each of the successes.
▶ 1:00:47We use all of those lessons learned and we move forward to do better and better with uh subsequent landers. Thank you, Dr. Fox. Um for Mr. Kim, if I could, um you know, our real goal here of course is to defeat the Chinese, get to the moon first, etc.
▶ 1:01:00How does the government help companies like yours um as a strategic countermeasure uh to China as they're trying to expand their Thank you chairman for that question. First of all, it's a recognition that the moon is the ultimate high ground and just the recognition that it's great for science exploration and commercial reasons, but also national security as well.
▶ 1:01:30Uh secondly, um getting repetitions every time one of our companies on on this panel flies around the moon and does its burns around the moon and lands on the moon. um we're getting repetitions on how to operate and keep our freedom of action in space and so um a robust clips program actually helps in the end all mission areas including national security. Thank you Mr. Altimus.
▶ 1:01:58Do you want to expand on that if you if you wish? Yes, thank you for the question. I would say that this regular cadence of missions is important. We learn every time we fly. And so if we're flying on a regular basis and we're beginning to put in the pieces of infrastructure in cis lunar space, we have an advantage. The eclipse program has forced uh us as a as a commercial sector to drive the cost of access to the moon to its lowest point. You see some failures. We've reached the bottom.
▶ 1:02:27We know what it takes and that's a competitive advantage to fly with such affordable missions to the moon on a regular basis putting in infrastructure as we go allows us the presence in cis lunar space to observe what's going on and uh and to and and to be there to advise national security space on the space traffic management and space domain awareness activities that are going on in and around the moon. Thank you very much. Mr. For Mr.
▶ 1:02:54Thornton, if I could, um, what role should NASA play in expanding its customer base within the Eclipse program in your opinion? Well, I think first off, it's it's expanding on the the manifesting board that's already existing inside of NASA. Um, it's it's looking at all of the other mission directorates and ways that it can tie in together. Um, it's looking at the Artemis uh program as a whole and can the Eclipse program be part of the cargo delivery uh portions of that. Um, can can clips become part of the infrastructure development in long term? Can we build long-term sustaining presence on the surface of the moon?
▶ 1:03:24And clips can offer that. It's set up, the structure is there, the early investments have been made. I think we're right at that tipping point where landings are going to be more routine and we're going to see more and more successes. So, it's it's doubling down on what we've already been doing. Thank you so much. And I want to as as a new member of Congress, I want to applaud the committee for their incredible work, especially with our chairman and our ranking member, uh, Chairman Babin. They've just done a remarkable job.
▶ 1:03:46This program is so innovative and it's really changed and it's given us that information we need to make sure we make it to the moon first and and get to the South Pole for that matter as each of you discussed. And I I applaud you each for your success and really grateful you all have come in to to testify. And with that, I want to recognize our ranking member from North Carolina, Miss Fushi, for five minutes worth of questions. You're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. U my first question is for Dr. Fox. Dr. Fox.
▶ 1:04:11On March 11th, ranking members Lafer and Sykes and I sent a letter to acting administrator Petra requesting the agency reorganization plan, otherwise known as the RIFF plan um that NASA sent to OM on March 20th. While NASA did respond to our letter, we did not receive answers to our questions, nor did we receive the initial plan.
▶ 1:04:34As the committee with jurisdiction over NASA, it is imperative that Congress obtain the necessary information to carry out our oversight responsibilities. To that end, I hope that you can help us understand the status of Doge induced workforce reductions and their impacts. How many science mission directorate or SMD personnel have you lost through the fork in the road deferred early retirement? And is there administrative leave being paid for by SMD?
▶ 1:05:05Thank you so much for the question. Um, I'll have to take that for the record and get the numbers back for you. Uh, I I don't have the the full numbers going into the centers for each of the science workforce, but we'll be happy to return that for you um, uh, as soon as we can. Thank you. Will you commit to reporting back to the committee within two weeks with those answers to these questions? Yes, we will. Thank you very much, Dr.
▶ 1:05:29Denevi the National Academyy's decal survey on planetary science recommended that NASA carry out a medium class mission to collect high value samples on the south pole of the moon and that NASA use clips eclipse lander to deliver the sample return rover. Is the eclipse program ready for a mission of this nature? And to what extent would such a mission demonstrate US leadership in lunar sample return?
▶ 1:05:59Yes. Um you're right. This is some of Excuse me for one second. Would you mind moving your microphones closer? We've been told by C-SPAN that each of you all would be beneficial if you can move your microphones closer. That'd be fantastic. And you'll you'll still have plenty of time. Yes. Please. Um yes, this was deemed the highest science priority for several past decal surveys to understand uh the most ancient large impact basin on the moon.
▶ 1:06:23And so in the last decal survey, it was a recommendation to um explore across that basin and collect a suite of samples, bring those to Aremis astronauts for return. Um I think that clips will be ready because there is a evolving program now and we can see that as these companies are learning and growing we expect that they will be ready to provide um and to deliver on the most important science goals for uh NASA science program. Um thank you Mr. Thornon.
▶ 1:06:54Your written statement details how NASA across its field centers provides unique expertise facilities and technical capabilities such as sensor technology, landing algorithms and test fixtures in supporting clips vendors. As you are aware, NASA like other federal agencies has been directed to plan for widescale rifts.
▶ 1:07:18What would be the impact on your company's clips activities of not having access to NASA's assets and expertise? Well, the space community is a small, tight-knit group that really builds on each other's successes. We're up against the most challenging environment um known to man. And it is due to NASA's support um over many many years and all of the technologies that came together that that we are standing here today as clips companies.
▶ 1:07:44Um before clips, there was a program called Catalyst where NASA personnel were helping build the architectures for for commercial landers. Um there's countless technologies across the agency that have contributed to the landers that that we all fly. Um and including contributing to the the next big things like um setting up power grids on the surface of the moon are are paramount. Um and we're relying on technology that's sourced from NASA Glenn for for exactly that. Um so there's p bits and pieces from every single bits of the center um that that contributes to that.
▶ 1:08:12And then the other half of it is the science and the demand side of it. Um the way we're going to determine the resources, the way we're going to determine how much quantity and where these hotspots are on the surface of the moon is the fundamental science is the ability to go and do these experiments and you need robust support for for exactly that. Mr. Altimus and Mr. Kim, would you care to comment? I would agree that um uh conducting a mission to the moon is not um a single company endeavor.
▶ 1:08:42It is actually using multiple government agencies. It's using international cooperation for large radioastronomy dishes to get the communications out to the moon. So it's a global integrated effort to fly a mission to the moon. We used Johnson Space Center, Marshall Space Flight Center, Glenn Research Center, Langley Research Center, Ames Research Center, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, all as a um aids to help us uh get our missions off the ground and successfully to the surface of the moon.
▶ 1:09:12And so they've been a tremendous partner and support. This public private partnership is what the shoulders of the NASA's uh accomplishment is what we stand upon and it's the way we're able to land on the surface of the moon as a commercial company today. Mr. K, Congresswoman, um I would agree with my panelists that uh it's always a a team and a partnership.
▶ 1:09:39Uh the public private partnership uh fared well for our Blue Gus one mission. We actually environmentally tested the Blue Ghost lander at Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. Um, and my hearts go out to everybody that were um, suffering from the fires in January. That was all going on during our launch campaign.
▶ 1:10:01And um, I personally uh, lived in California for 22 years and I watched all the um, daring missions that JPL did. And so I'm a big fan of JPL. We continue to license products from JPL. There's a lot of great minds from JPL as well. So um we would like to continue to work with centers like JPL um um across the nation. Thank you Mr. Kim. With that I she yields back.
▶ 1:10:29Next I will recognize our chairman from Texas Dr. Babin. Dr. Babin you are recognized for five minutes of questions. Yes sir. Thank you very much. U very fascinating uh testimony. I want to thank everyone Um NASA has not assessed the commercial marketplace for lunar landing services 2017.
▶ 1:10:50In a 2024 report, the OIG found that the opportunity for vendors to fill manifest with non-NASA payloads is limited and that vendors estimated that quote about 20% of demand for lunar delivery services comes from commercial or international entities while NASA provides the other 80%. The OIG recommended that NASA conduct updated market research by this spring and NASA concurred. Dr.
▶ 1:11:18Fox, uh, can you provide an update on NASA's efforts to conduct market research for clip services as recommended by the OIG and does NASA consider itself to be an anchor tenant for clips uh providers? Thank you very much for the question. Um, so we are, as I noted, we are always doing lessons learned. We continually look um how successful we are, what other capabilities, what other new capabilities, what other new opportunities are coming online. And so that is something we do as our standard practice.
▶ 1:11:47Um we are uh in the process of getting ready to do the Eclipse 2.0. Um and so of course we are building all of the things we've learned. Um we've done a you know a study looking at what kind of capabilities are out there and that will be reflected as always in uh in Eclipse 2.0 moving forward. Um at at this time I do agree that NASA is the largest uh user of delivery to the moon because of course we're leading the way back to the moon and then onto Mars. And so uh we're very proud to be doing that.
▶ 1:12:15Um working very very closely of course across the agency with all of our mission director partners to uh do things like plan the science of the future missions uh make sure the infrastructure is there to protect our astronauts. And so we're very proud to uh to be leading the way with that program. Thank you very much. In June of 2020, NASA awarded astrobotic eclipse task order to deliver NASA's volatiles investigating polar exploration rover or Viper using the Griffin lander.
▶ 1:12:43However, in July of 2024, NASA announced its intent to discontinue development of Viper, citing cost increases, scheduled delays, and high risk of future cost growth. Dr. Fox, can you provide insight into NASA's initial decision to manifest Viper on Eclipse mission and basically what portion of Eclipse delays and cost overruns are tied to the Viper task order? And then I've got a couple of follow-ups. Okay. Uh thank you. There's a lot in that question.
▶ 1:13:12Um yes, so uh the the decision was made uh to put Viper on Eclipse um Bllander. Uh we had anticipated um having several successful landings by that point and therefore having bought down the risk. Um, in uh in addition to that, the uh Viper rover itself increased in cost and so the risk of putting such an expensive payload on an untested lander uh became something that uh just just didn't really make sense for us. What we chose to do was do an orderly um shutdown of the Viper rover.
▶ 1:13:41Um they the team was able to complete the testing they were doing. uh we've asked them to put it in a safe sort of store and safe configuration so it is protected while we actually work uh to to look for other ways to get Viper to the moon. Uh we recently put out a call uh there was an RFI a call for information of people who would be interested in taking Viper to the moon in partnership with NASA.
▶ 1:14:04Uh we recently put out a a call for proposals and we're in the process of of reviewing those to look for a way to get this this rover to the moon. Well, what lessons did you did NASA learn from this experience and how have those lessons informed decisions for future clips task orders? And also um understanding that clips is intended to provide shots on goal, why would NASA cancel Viper rather than manifesting it on a future clips mission when it is essentially now complete?
▶ 1:14:33Uh so so the decision was to actually terminate it at the time uh because of budget. um we did not have the budget to be able to support uh Viper moving forward. It would have actually affected um many future clips landers and so we did a sort of value proposition look of of what other science there are other ways that we can actually find out about volatiles on the moon. Um and so there are other payloads manifested on future eclipse landers that will be able to help do that.
▶ 1:15:02Um so we actually prioritized continuing the pace and the cadence as you've heard from uh all the panelists here. The fact that we have a high cadence of these landers is really really important to this this initiative. Um, and so we prioritize that instead of sort of halting clips while a lander was then developed to be able to to land Viper. And in parallel, we're looking for a way to be able to get Viper to the to the moon surface to be able to continue the exploration and look for the volatiles that we need to find for the Otimus mission. Okay. Thank you.
▶ 1:15:31I had added a couple of more questions uh of of you the several of you other folks, but I will submit that for the record. Thank you. I'm out of time. Yel back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I now recognize our representative from California, our ranking member, Miss Lofrren. Thank you very much. Uh Dr. Fox, ProPublica uh reported last week that SpaceX has received uh funds from Chinese investors through offshore vehicles designed to obscure their identities.
▶ 1:15:59According to testimony in a Delaware lawsuit from an investor that ProPublica called quote a consumate SpaceX insider, the company discourages public investments from China, but finds it acceptable to take Chinese investments through intermediate entities created by Chinese investors in corporate tax havens such as the Cayman Islands and the British Virgin Islands.
▶ 1:16:24The CFO of SpaceX testified in the same lawsuit that he had personally discussed SpaceX's approach to Chinese investment with the aforementioned insider and court filings in the case revealed that a large number of Chinese investors own corporate shares of SpaceX with at least some of those shares being acquired through offshore vehicles. Uh SpaceX is NASA's second largest contractor.
▶ 1:16:49Given the sensitivity of NASA's scientific work, I'm concerned to learn that an agency contractor may be deliberately obscuring investments from a foreign country of concern, namely one of our biggest adversaries, China. We need to know more about how NASA monitors the ownership structures of its contractors to mitigate potential risk to American interests. Dr.
▶ 1:17:16Fox, how does NASA track changes in ownership structure among its contractors? What safeguards are uh put in place to require privately held contractors to disclose investments from foreign countries of concern? Thank you for the question. I apologize. I do not have the information. Uh you would have to address that to our office of procurement. We will be happy to take the question back and provide whatever information we can. Uh thank you Dr. Fox.
▶ 1:17:43Can we look forward to receiving that information from NASA within the next two weeks? We'll certainly give it our best shot. Dr. Fax, following up on the chairman's question, um the value of understanding lunar volatiles such as water, ice on the moon, especially at the South Pole, has been discussed for years uh doing due to its scientific importance and its potential use for enabling deep space human exploration.
▶ 1:18:13Uh the chairman and I were both concerned about the uh termination of Viper. Uh it was an expensive project, but we did send a letter uh to NASA seeking answers and honestly I was never it was the prior administration, but I was not satisfied with the answers that we got. Um certainly the project was terminated after it was complete. I mean it was done.
▶ 1:18:38Um, is NASA ruling out retaining Viper if the agency is not confident another entity can successfully land, operate, and return Viper Viper science data from the moon at no additional cost to the agency. Thank you so much for the question. Um, so Viper wasn't complete uh when we when we canceled it. It still had some testing to do. Um, so we it there was still runway and there was still budget that was needed.
▶ 1:19:05uh we did let them complete the testing that they were doing correct um and so that we could you know tie a bow on that and we knew exactly kind of what state it was in when we put it into storage um and so that was the decision we made while we worked to see if I if I may I mean I did visit and I don't know if the chairman had the chance as well but it was tail ends I mean basically it was you know 99% done so I thought the answer given to me by the agency was not very persuasive honestly Um,
▶ 1:19:35Dr. Denevi, can you tell us about the science that Viper is designed to carry out and why it's important and what are the implications for science and human exploration programs if they don't get the data that Viper is designed to collect? Yeah. Um, when we talk about, you know, high-risisk, high reward for clips, the reward and, you know, the why for why we are doing a lot of this is that science.
▶ 1:20:01Viper was designed to look at the origin um and nature and abundance of volatiles at the moon's south pole. Um this is a fantastic science question because we are interested in knowing were these volatiles delivered by comets and asteroids from the outer solar system early in the solar systems history? Were they from volcanic outgassing? And this speaks to you know you pull that thread even further back. What is the origin of the earth's water, the earth's oceans?
▶ 1:20:28Um, so it's really important that as we move forward, we keep addressing those very big high priority science Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you so much. Next, we have our representative from Georgia, Mr. Collins. Mr. Collins, recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Dr. Fox, I uh I read through your testimony looking for this answer, so if if it was in there, I'm sorry I missed it.
▶ 1:20:53Um, but I want to I want to set it up by, you know, in November, Americans, they voted uh for a couple things. Number one, to start saving taxpayers money with this being $ 38 trillion in debt. And uh also to to to look at what these federal agents need to do to become more productive and more efficient at at what they're charged with. And having said that, now I really really like public private partnerships. Actually, I like private free market enterprise the best.
▶ 1:21:22And uh so I want to delve into what I saw as some of the cost overruns for just a minute. Um it's been noted in our in our papers here that uh program management and cost schedule overruns for clips task orders experienced significant delays averaging 14 months and $28 million in cumulative cost increase due to management challenges.
▶ 1:21:46NASA also shifted away from the initial hands-off approach adding oversight and larger more complex emissions early in the program which contributed 171 million in additional cost. So I guess I kind of want to look at did the vendors do they go through a a vetting and application process to become a provider? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:22:10Uh yes uh we put out a call uh many of the providers submit proposals they are reviewed and then we selected a pool a candidate pool um of of vendors that were then able to uh actually apply for each of the clips missions themselves. So they were very uh thoroughly vetted um going through and and they understood the mission and what was being asked of them to do. Yes. So all right so here's my question then.
▶ 1:22:37I I don't understand overruns because if you contract with somebody to do a job, were these change orders or were they just some sort of failure by the provider to provide the the service that they're trying to do? Uh there are there are several reasons. Uh some of them are we they actually have um uh more capability than uh than we had realized and we took advantage of that excess capability. things like buying data um the landing data information about the the landers themselves and actually purchasing that.
▶ 1:23:06Um there are also sometimes delays um if uh some of the the um the providers need particular launch windows um if they miss those launch windows they have to wait for another one to come and that drives cost. So you have to go back and appropriate that money or is that just I mean to me if you miss a window I'm not quite sure I understand that. Well, we have the choice of of launching the measure like you know accepting the Yeah, I understand that part whether they can go or can't go. Yeah.
▶ 1:23:35So, that's just built into the to the contract that if the windows not open then the cost goes up. Uh that that is that is an increase cost. Yes. Okay. Um Mr. Kim, I don't know if you have anything you want to weigh in as a provider on on what I'm asking for or not. Thank you, Congressman. Uh Firefly did not overrun on our program on our Bluegus One mission.
▶ 1:23:59Uh we we had a uh option that was turned on within the first month of our contract award and it was to operate into the lunar night. That's a very difficult challenging problem. So in addition to the 14 days of successful lunar surface operations, we were able to extend operations hours into the night and got a lot of great science data that is going to continue to get processed over years and decades.
▶ 1:24:27So there's a lot of gamechanging science from that lunar night extension. Um so the return on investment is going to be very very huge. Uh we also got a really great sunset picture. We got a eclipse picture and there's some globe phenomen phenomenology that scientists are going to validate what that phenomenology is. Appreciate that. That that brings me to another question. Dr.
▶ 1:24:51Fox, do you keep So, I'm sure you've got a list of the cost overruns and details and and where they occurred. Absolutely. Yes. Do we have a copy of that? Do we get a copy of that? Uh we can happily give you the uh information about the clips clips costs. Yes, ma'am. I'd love to see the record. All right. Thank you. I have no further questions. I yield back. Thank you. I now recognize a rec representative from New York, Miss Gillan, for five minutes of questions. You're recognized.
▶ 1:25:22Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Uh Dr. Fox, as you know, there is strong, as you've seen today, there is strong bipartisan support in Congress for NASA's Aremis program to return astronauts to the moon. However, a recent uh report in the Wall Street Journal seemed to suggest that NASA might choose to prioritize the mission to Mars over the United States returning uh astronauts to the moon.
▶ 1:25:46and I'm deeply concerned that uncertainty in the direction of our space program has serious consequences for our competition with China. Can you confirm that NASA remains fully committed to the Aremis program and will remain committed? Uh yes, we are laser focused on our program and our moon to Mars program. Uh obviously we think as as with everything with NASA, we have one mission that builds on the success of the other. We had a successful Arteimus one. Arteimus 2 will see humans return to the lunar orbit.
▶ 1:26:16Arteimus 3 will land humans on the moon and then we have great science actually planned for Arteimus 4, five and beyond with the ultimate goal of later Arteimus missions going to Mars. Thank you. Uh Dr. Fox again um according to the NASA inspector general, the clips program faces on average a 14-month delay per order and more than 200 million in cost overruns. I know we just spoke was we spoke a little bit about that.
▶ 1:26:43Um how is NASA looking to take steps to guarantee that future orders are fulfilled on time and under budget and in terms of delays doing some risk allocation in your planning? Yeah, that's a really great question. Um so I mentioned you know the lessons learned. Um as uh we you know we anticipate as our providers have more and more successes the cadence will actually get uh to where we need it to be. Um, we do want to be landing uh at least two missions on the moon every year. We want to be awarding clips contracts two a year.
▶ 1:27:13That's really important to us to keep that pace up. Um, and so, you know, working with our providers uh to uh to ensure that uh they they hit the the contract milestones that we need them to. Um, and then uh putting putting our precious science on the the lunar surface on schedule. Thank you. Uh, Dr. Denevi, you can you've heard from both sides here. We are very concerned about the Viper mission and the cancellation of the Viper mission.
▶ 1:27:38I know you um elaborated a little bit uh to ranking member Lafrren's question about uh the importance of the Viper mission and and the real competitive advantage we will have if that mission goes forward. Um could you and you asked for immediate congressional action. Can you elaborate a little bit further about how we can help get that mission back on track and how important it is for our American interests in space?
▶ 1:28:02Um yes yeah Viper will provide really important new measurements you know not not just for science but also if we want to develop a sustainable exploration program being able to prove out that there are water ice resources that we can use for that uh program is is pretty uh important. And so um in order to make sure that Viper can deliver that in ways that will feed forward into human exploration and other missions going forward.
▶ 1:28:31I think the minimum that we need to do is make sure that we restore funding for the um NASA support for the science and operations of Viper. There are teams that have been working incredibly hard to learn how to develop the software operate and to calibrate all of the instruments so that they can get the most science return for those. in terms of how it is delivered to the moon itself. Um I leave that to you know NASA's decisions there.
▶ 1:29:01I think the science team um understands that with a high-risisk high reward we want to make sure that um it's a balance but still putting forward so that we have a chance to get to that rewarding science and um exploration data. And do we think the technology is out there so we can successfully land the Viper? Um, yes. It is difficult on these first landings obviously.
▶ 1:29:27So that is um it it is a high-risisk posture, but we've already seen companies are having success and as they continue to have success that confidence will grow. Thank you. Uh Mr. Kim, congratulations on the inspiring success of Blue Ghost, the first private mission to land successfully on the lunar surface. What else should Congress be doing to invest in building the workforce and strengthening our supply chains and improving testing facilities to incl.
▶ 1:30:00Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question. Uh these are near and dear to Fireflyy's heart. Um workforce development is a huge part of Fireflyy's culture. We give responsibilities at as at a very early early very early point in everyone's careers at Firefly and they do a great job and Blue Ghost one is a exemplifies that success. Um I also volunteer on the space workforce for tomorrow as an ex executive committee member and in that program we're inspiring K through 12.
▶ 1:30:30We're trying to keep people in the pipeline especially for not just NASA and exploration purposes but for national security as well and then we provide internships across all these uh companies that uh follow the pledge and through those companies they give uh great opportunities to keep these folks engaged in aerospace and lunar missions and beyond.
▶ 1:30:54And then finally once they get jobs uh we want to um have them do cross trainining cross-skilling improve their skills and that keeps them doing very productive things for the nation. Secondly I think supply chain is something near and dear to our hearts. I think um all of us uh have to uh manage our supply chain uh very well to perform these production lines especially on production lines.
▶ 1:31:20Um, with that, your time is expired. Thank you. Thank you. I yield back. Next, we turn to the congressman from California, Mr. Fong. Mr. Fong, you're recognized for five minutes. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, like you, I've seen firsthand the incredible innovation driven by the commercial space sector, and I really appreciate NASA certainly leveraging the commercial space sector to advance its goals. So, I want to thank the chair for for organizing this hearing. Um, certain my district is home to the Air Force Research Laboratory.
▶ 1:31:49uh uh the Air Force Research Laboratory's rocket lab at Airworks Air Force Base where Blue Origin uh is testing their BE7 lunar landing engine. Uh these engines will power Blue Origin's uh human landing system for NASA and the Blue Moon Mark1 lunar lander that will land launch and land on the moon later this year. Uh I also appreciate and represent the Mojave Air and Spaceport Spaceport which is home to uh to astrobotics research and development site.
▶ 1:32:15Uh and so our community is certainly proud of the work underway astrobotics and appreciate that we have John here today. I certainly want to start there. Um in your testimony um as mentioned earlier people are talking about Mars but uh our our commitment and our need to return to the moon is not mutually exclusive.
▶ 1:32:34and you actually you indicated that um the the the need to return to the moon is important to our national security but also as a proving ground uh to demonstrate our ability to do that. Can you go into more details in terms of what you're working on and how it helps us uh to to get to to Mars? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for the question. I mean, the moon is our nearest neighbor. It's the place that we're going to go to learn to live off the land of another planetary body. It's the first place we're going to go to find resources.
▶ 1:33:02It's the places that we're we're going to set up the capability for astronauts to live off world. Um it is it's the obvious um pathway to Mars for for that perspective. Um and towards that we need to make sure that we can have a sustaining presence there. Um and that's all about routine regular science missions and clips missions to go up to the surface to understand how to live off the land and how to operate there. Um and then we need to build long-term infrastructure opportunities like power for example is one of the most important opportunities.
▶ 1:33:30um because that can literally be a a light in the darkness of the the cold black of the craters of of the south pole of the moon where the whole world can come together and gather and bring other other science instruments for sustained operations on the surface of the moon. So every time we can live off the land and operate longer on the surface, we're going to enable opportunity for Mars um because we're going to have that capability developed and be ready to apply to a planet that's much further away from from Earth than Mars or the moon is. Thank you.
▶ 1:33:57Uh this question is actually for uh for Mr. Thornton uh Mr. Altimus and Mr. Kim. Uh I think it was stated by Dr. Fox that the goal is to have a cadence of two launches a year. Uh is that um possible? Are we can we do that now or where are we in that in in that milestone uh timeline? And if not, how do we get there? So I'll I'll start and pass pass pass along here. I mean, I think technically we're there.
▶ 1:34:28I mean, you saw just this year the number of launches that are occurring. We've already seen two happen already this year. We're going to see a third and a fourth this year. Um, so we're seeing that cadence of capability. I think the next step to think about for um going forward is the Clips 2.0 program. Um, which is why we're we're big advocates of block buys right out of the gate. One of the biggest challenges we have on on schedule that was mentioned earlier is maintaining that supply chain.
▶ 1:34:52So, if you're able to buy bulk buy components right up front and make those long-term commitments, you provide the certainty for the supply chain, you provide certainty for us as providers, you supply the certainty for the science community, and numbing knowing what launches are flying when. Um, this is how we're going to create that sustaining opportunity um where missions to the moon are regular and routine. Thank you, Schultz. From my perspective, you know, we built the an entire lunar program, not just a lunar lander, in the first four years of eclipse.
▶ 1:35:21So the time it takes to get an undergraduate degree, we were able to build a lunar program. We now can build a cadence of of landers at least one a year. And I agree with John in terms of block buys. We can stabilize a workforce. We can stabilize a supply chain and we could lower the overall investment needed if we can fly more frequently and and and and have uh the stability in a supply chain to have multiple orders against multiple missions. That keeps them healthy and in business. It keeps us healthy and in business.
▶ 1:35:51It keeps our workforce stabilized. We can hire for the future and it and it helps us invest in future technologies and future capabilities like survive the night um which is critical for the future of longer missions. So I absolutely agree that the block buys are the key for going forward uh and this regular cadence will help us all. Let me add a question in addition to the one I've just asked is so it seems to me that we can do two a year. Is two too low? Should we do should we be increasing our cadence? Mr.
▶ 1:36:21Kim, thank you, Congressman. I believe in proliferation just like UAVs used to be oneoffs and small sets used to be one-offs, you get much greater performance through proliferation. So, I think we can uh increase our capacity to meet that demand. I appreciate that. Uh I yield back. Thank you very much. Next, we have the representative from California, Mr. Whitesides, for his five minutes. You're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, let me start off by saying welcome and hello.
▶ 1:36:50Uh, I am a strong supporter of the clips program and I think the diversity of approaches is a real benefit to the country. I also know how hard it is to do this work and so I want to recognize the the folks both in industry and in the science community uh for all of the efforts uh that you've made. So, thank you uh and please extend my thanks to your team. Uh, I want to make a comment first.
▶ 1:37:13Since the start of this new administration, there have been reports that NASA has been spared the significant changes to personnel and budgets that we've seen so far at other federal agencies. But in recent weeks, uh we have heard firings of NASA senior leaders and reports that NASA's science mission directorate will face a 50% budget cut. Uh we've also heard that NASA headquarters could be moved out of Washington DC.
▶ 1:37:38I believe these actions will have devastating consequences for both the country and for NASA and they have been proposed or considered while a nominee for a new NASA administrator is still awaiting confirmation. Now, this is a bipartisan issue. The these are dangerous and sweeping changes to NASA that should be consulted with Congress and only proposed by Senate confirmed leadership in place.
▶ 1:38:01I believe the Congress should exercise its oversight authority to prevent any further structural or budgetary changes at NASA until a Senate confirmed administrator is in place. In the meantime, I urge the acting NASA leadership to uphold the long-standing precedent of deferring large decisions such as this until permanent leadership is confirmed by the Senate. To that point, Dr. Fox, have you been instructed to run scenarios of budget cuts to the science direct directorate? And if so, how large were those cuts?
▶ 1:38:30Thank you so much for the question and for the comments. Uh uh we have not seen uh the uh upcoming president's budget request um for 2026 and so uh we have not run any scenarios since we don't know what what is in there. We recently uh as you know received a continuing resolution and so we know the funding that we have for 2025 and we are implementing all of the programs that we had anticipated uh being able to do with great success. Dr. Mr.
▶ 1:38:56Fox, what would be the impact to the science program and American scientific leadership of cutting the science mission directorate budget by 50%. Please be as specific as possible. Um it's it's difficult to know exactly what the impact would be until we see the president's budget request because usually there the priorities are set in there. Um and so we know uh where you know where the uh where the cuts would be taken.
▶ 1:39:23Um but a 50% cut is going to result in some pretty drastic decisions. Um we uh of course we will lean on our national academy decal surveys. Each of those have um sort of priorities for if you do have to take budget cuts what would what would uh you know what would go um first. Uh usually the emphasis is on the research fund and um also our PILE competed missions. Thank you.
▶ 1:39:50Um, I just want to remind our committee here that China has landed a working lunar rover on the moon. And so I agree with my colleagues who are urging an effort to uh get Viper to the moon and to maintain American leadership on the moon. Uh, I thought your comments, Mr. Thornton, Mr. Altimus, Mr. Kim, were spot on.
▶ 1:40:13Um this is a race and it's a long-term race and so you know we have to uh keep our ambitions high. Um our competitors are working really hard and they are succeeding. So this is a crucial time. It's not a time to let our foot off the gas in lunar exploration and I think that the work that these companies and the scientists who are supporting them are doing is is really terrific and a and a and a testament to the uh power of American innovation. So I yield back. Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 1:40:44Next, I recognized a representative from Texas, Mr. Self, for his five minutes. Mr. Self, you're recognized. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman, being new to this committee. I appreciate you being here and enlightening me. These are honest questions. Um, for my three CEOs, do you have private missions as well or only for NASA? So, as of now, we're we're actively campaigning to get payloads on board each each one of the missions. The first, if you don't mind, Mr. N, get a little closer to microp.
▶ 1:41:14I'm sorry. Uh, our first mission had an array of small payloads on board the mission. Um, though NASA still was the largest customer. Our second mission does also have private customers on board as well. Um, but uh NASA is a large payer for that mission. Um, our follow-on mission, we're planning additional private uh sales on that as well. Generally, we're seeing an uptick in non-NASA interest in payloads. Um, and I think we'll see more of that when successful landings happen and even more of that when infrastructure set up on the moon.
▶ 1:41:41Very Thank you for the question. In uh 2018 when the Eclipse uh initiative was launched, uh there were no lunar landers being built in the United States. Uh now, and so as a result, there really weren't many scientific payloads being cultivated uh other than outside of uh other than within NASA. So the outside commercial interest in the moon wasn't there yet. Um and then international partners weren't yet building the payloads.
▶ 1:42:09Until we were successful at landing on the moon, we've seen a growth in the availability of commercial payloads, scientific payloads to go to the moon and international interest in the moon and miss. Okay. Thank you, Congressman, for the question. Um for Blue Ghost 2, that's our second mission uh to the far side of the moon. We have fully manifested the NASA payloads as well as commercial payloads.
▶ 1:42:37Um and since our successful landing and our 14 days of lunar surface operations, we've received a lot of inquiries to manifest commercial payloads on our Blue Ghost 3 mission to the Groot Heisen Dome. And then furthermore, we're getting inquiries for dedicated commercial landers without any NASA participation. although NASA might be interested in those missions as well. And then finally, there's a lot of international inquiries as well coming our way because of the successful landing and surface operations. Very good. Uh Dr.
▶ 1:43:07Fox, uh in our last hearing, we heard that the from the testimony of the witnesses, beating China to the moon is a remote possibility. So my question to you though is what does that look like?
▶ 1:43:23because I've heard the infrastructure if we're going to what what constitutes success for you obviously it is not just the first landing of a man or woman on the moon what constitutes success of beating China to the moon because I've heard an excellent presentation here on infrastructure repetitive successes what is it uh the the success of the OTM program is developing no I mean what constitutes success of beating China a sustained
▶ 1:43:53presence on the sustained presence infrastructure and everything. Yeah. Which is the goal of the OTMUS program. Okay. Very good. So the fixed firm price were all of the changes NASA generated or were some from the providers, the overruns that I think Mr. Collins referred to. Uh I can speak on the ones that that NASA generated that was if if we had to change interfaces due to the change of an instrument or the change of a payload.
▶ 1:44:20um if we actually took advantage of the capability as uh Mr. Kim uh said, you know, being able to actually survive the night uh do sorry, not survive the night, uh but actually operate during the lunar night was something that we were very interested in. And so those are things that we drove. So NASA drove all of the contract changes. Uh I am aware I I can speak to the ones that we drove. If there are others, I would call on the my panelists to address those. Were all of the changes NASA driven?
▶ 1:44:50I would say in the case of our first mission uh there was a a large change to South Pole landing site that was NASA driven. However, there were technological challenges with the with the tank design, the composite tanks that were internally um uh covered by intuitive machines as a result of choosing that technology. So, uh I don't know how their bookkept in terms of those overruns, but we invested our own funds to solve those technology challenges for cryogenic tanks in space. So, you didn't charge NASA is what you're saying. That's correct.
▶ 1:45:21Okay. Um, very good. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Congressman Self. Next, we have Dr. Collins from I'm sorry, Dr. Kennedy from Utah. Dr. Kennedy, you're recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Wasn't sure if there was another doctor in the in the area. And thanks to the five of you. Actually, I I read your bios and I'm I'm disturbed at how intelligent you all are and a little intimidated as well.
▶ 1:45:44Uh, Congress is not notorious for bringing um, PhD professor types to uh, our service, but I get to work with a lot of really capable, smart people, but um, thanks for doing what you do. I am very interested in the lunar night and the survivability and Dr. Fox, I'll start with you. Uh, apparently that is a top priority. You've referenced that already in your testimonies.
▶ 1:46:04I I'm very interested in uh what are we doing to promote that in the form of I presume solar is a big part of it not being an in the um I'm a family doctor I'm not I'm not a PhD physics professor type person but can you tell me what is it that would make I'm interested in nuclear why are we not using nuclear is it too heavy or improbable to use it and how is it that we can survive the lunar night in a more effective fashion so surviving the lunar light
▶ 1:46:34night is one of the challenges that we have for our clips providers. Um as we move forward uh you know getting more and more capable landers. Right now our clips missions are pretty short in duration. Um and as we move forward that's something that we are uh anxious to create the technology to be able to do that. So that technology would not involve nuclear then it always has to involve solar. Is that what uh I don't have information on what our nuclear plans are for the solar?
▶ 1:47:01Yes, we're looking at at uh at ways to do that, but there is a a program in the uh space technology mission directorate that is really focused on that and I'm happy to take your question back to them and get you an answer. Thank you. Love to learn more about that. A lot of these things that you're talking about are things that uh science fiction has been talking about for generations now and I'm I'm impressed at your efforts to do that. I'll I'll go on Mr. Altimus Thornton and Kim. I the the hundreds of millions of dollars that we've invested in Eclipse.
▶ 1:47:29Uh I I want to know on your part, what are you doing to survive the the lunar night as well? So what are the other comments you'd have because apparently that's a massive challenge for us to overcome. We'll start with you, Mr. Thornton, if that's right. Yes, Arrivite is a really big deal. Changing from two weeks of operations to multiple years. Um fusion and fision ser surface power is a fantastic solution for that. Um it though is challenged by regulation, cost and schedule.
▶ 1:47:57The fastest way to set up and survive on the lunar night is to build a a solar power grid at the poles of the moon. If you find a peak of persistent light, you can stay lit year round, spider that power out to infrastructure on the surface and other other assets and survive. The other way is to be really really big, which translates to really heavy and expensive. Um so I believe that solar is the most near-term and uh best pathway for surviving night. Thank you. We have a program.
▶ 1:48:24We're working with this um um space technology mission directorate to develop radioisotope heaters that actually can help heat a smaller lander um to survive the night. The other opportunity is in in uh battery power, but again that's very heavy. So if we add additional batteries that can warm the critical components of the lander, provide heater power, that would work. I think on the larger heavier cargo class landers, that's a real possibility.
▶ 1:48:50uh as we're demonstrating with the lunar terrain vehicle um delivery system Nova D we call it and then the other one is in fuel cells uh fuel cell technology lends itself to uh bringing up commodities that would allow us to p generate power and provide uh heat to the lander. So those are all in our roadmap for uh the business intuitive machines and we're pursuing those in earnest to get to that capability because it opens up additional revenue streams for customers that can live longer and get longer service on the moon.
▶ 1:49:20Thank you Mr. Kim. Thank you Congressman for the question. Um we actually on Blue Goss one got a option exercise to operate five hours into the lunar night and so we're going to continue to process that data. NASA is and share that with the rest of the world. Um there's a difference between survive the night and thrive in the night. And so survive is just you can turn off systems, maintain heater control, but you need something to power that. You need a power source.
▶ 1:49:49So batteries and we make our in-house batteries at Firefly and they did really really well on our mission. Um you can add more batteries in a modular fashion. Uh, and that would also um be something that could be in the footprint of today's lunar landers. You could also extend and scale the lunar landers in size and add more batteries, but that allows you to survive. So, I am very curious and Firefly is very curious about RTGS, radiothermal uh isotope generators.
▶ 1:50:18You've seen them on Mars rovers, so we know that they work. Thank thank you to JPL and the Idaho National Labs and also Oakidge National Labs that those are national asset capabilities. But that goes back to the public private partnerships. We need those type of public institutions to work with in in in order to enable future RTG missions on the lunar surface. Well, thanks to all of you for being here and for the work that you do and we want to partner with you. This is an important thing for our long-term future as well. Mr.
▶ 1:50:48Chair, thank you for the time and I yield back. Thank you, Dr. Kennedy. Next we have for the representative from Florida, Mr. Webster. You're recognized for five Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for having this hearing. Really appreciate it. Good, good dialogue. Uh Mr. Thornon, the science, space, and technology committee was created, I think, in 1958 in direct response to a successful launch by Russia of Sputnik one.
▶ 1:51:17Um, do you think this is a Sputnik one moment for China? I do. I and I'm I'm optimistic that our nation will respond just as we did during Apollo. Um, I'm optimistic that Artemis will lead us back to the moon. I'm optimistic that science can can chart the pathway of how we're going to unlock the secrets of the moon.
▶ 1:51:40And I'm optimistic that American industry is going to be our best uh uh weapon in being very very fast and agile to set up that infrastructure and capability out there on the surface. So I I I think that this could be the that opportunity. Thank you very much. Dr. Fox, I noticed in your written testimony you didn't mention China. Was there a reason for Uh there was no reason that I didn't. No.
▶ 1:52:07Um, I was focusing on the clips program and and all of the goodness um in the initiative. So, Mr. Aldus, you were uh you mentioned in March uh Ernie's call uh you described the uner lunar data uh network as a national asset.
▶ 1:52:34Could you explain that why it's a national asset? Thank you for the question. Part of um an award we received was a uh line item award from NASA, the the space communications and navigation group, $4.8 eight billion dollars to establish data relay satellites around the moon, position navigation and timing service around the moon and then the ground station uh communications from Earth out
▶ 1:53:05to uh between geo and cis lunar space and from earth out to 2 million kilometers beyond the moon. So it's a very significant commercial network. The only other network of its kind is the deep space network and NASA's asked us to be part of a commercial instantiation of a network that could be provided to all uh uh missions that travel in that near space region of space. I think that that's a critical in piece of infrastructure, communications and navigation.
▶ 1:53:35You can see how critical that is around uh Earth in low Earth orbit. Imagine it being out to the moon. And now other government agencies can use that for space domain awareness and space traffic management as well as any NASA scientific mission or Artemis mission. So it really is a national asset to put that kind of infrastructure in place as a commercial arm of the NASA's deep space network. Do you see that happening when we reach Mars of possibly having the same thing there?
▶ 1:54:05I absolutely do. I think the eclipse model lends itself, if we look at that as a blueprint of how you create an economy off a celestial body, starting with the moon, that eclipse model can extend its way all the way out to Mars to replace that aging infrastructure in weather satellites, imagers, and communication satellites out at Mars. And so I think this is just a building block and a stepping stone at the moon that can be extended out into the solar system. Yes. Okay.
▶ 1:54:35Um you mentioned also PO uh positive navigation timing PNT. Um how do you see that as necessary to s uh resilient operations? How how does fit for lunar missions? Position navigation and timing is essential for navigating um in and around the moon and landing with precision.
▶ 1:55:02Um, right now every one of us that flies to the moon has to carry their own navigation scheme and equipment and um, algorithms to be able to land with precision accuracy. We want that to be prolific so that anyone can actually land on the moon. And we've had to develop an alternate form of GPS to navigate around the moon with less satellites and still be as capable as GPS.
▶ 1:55:26And so the derived technologies that come out of building a network of PNT around the moon are applicable back at Earth. Also, how does it differ from GPS? We have to do a um uh a navigation with a constellation of five satellites uh not 24 satellites.
▶ 1:55:43And so uh we can do that by uh restricting the um the conversion of time between earth and the moon and have a time reference base at the moon that allows us to do precision uh timing at the moon that allows for navigation and not convert every time you send a signal back and forth to earth um from the moon and not have to do that conversion. So it's a new technology that we're working on as part of this contract. MT moon time. Yeah, there you go. Okay, great. go back.
▶ 1:56:15Thank you, Congressman Webster. Are we waiting for Mr. McCormack because I understand it. Is he going to make his way back or if that's it would be okay if we waited a couple minutes for him or is that okay? Thank you.
▶ 1:57:15now. Is that a firefly behind us there? The the model? Okay. Yes, chairman. It is my understanding it's about 6 and 1/2 ft tall and about 11 feet wide. Is that right? Okay. Uh, it's close. It's 6'6 in just like Michael Jordan. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Almost as tall as me. It's great. Yeah. I think M I think uh Congressman McCormack is in route.
▶ 1:57:51Congressman McCormack, you are recognized for five minutes for questions. Welcome back. Thank you. It is a pleasure to be with you today. This is actually a really exciting time in American history and in technologies. Uh you can see how drones are changing the world. But we are going back to some technologies that we've had in the past that we thought we sorted out before I was born or or at least about the time I was born.
▶ 1:58:18Uh we were getting people out into outer space and and then of course what we did was get somebody to the moon. And I remember what a big deal that was. And now we're talking about landing things up there unmanned. We had some difficulties, some challenges. Uh the first question I want to ask and it's kind of a a general question to all three of you at the end is why all of a sudden with all the automation, all the technology, all the I mean we have more in our phone than we had with the entire computer system of that same era.
▶ 1:58:45Why is it more difficult now when we have um competitors in India for example laying on the dark side of the moon for less than a billion dollars? It's crazy. uh for a lot less. As a matter of fact, what are we doing wrong that we can do better uh in this competitive market, this ultra competitive market that we have now? I think first is is uh the budgets are very different.
▶ 1:59:09Um so when we went back to Apollo, there was a massive large multiund,000 workforce that was uh that was making that technology possible. Um so it's it's different scale. So I I think we're succeeding with smaller scale missions at a tiny tiny fraction of what we did for Apollo and having large in outsized impact for that and we are building on the shoulders of the giants of the technology that was created then. I mean landing legs are almost exactly the same as as they were then.
▶ 1:59:35Some of the same landing algorithms and approaches are used similar sensors are used. So we're we're building on top of that. But the I think the key part that we are all trying to innovate at is doing it at a price point that has never happened before and we're talking an infantessimal fraction compared to the Apollo era um for these landings. So that's really the challenge that we're about is trying to do something that we've already done but at a tiny tiny fraction of the cost.
▶ 1:59:58Do you think part of the problem is that the humans still can outperform a computer when it comes to that fine tuning of landing an aircraft without tipping it over? For example, I'm a pilot. I'm a helicopter pilot. So I understand how minutia, the the overcorrection factor, the the human factor of just being able to see real time what's happening and adapt to that environment. Is that something that we're still adapting to? Teaching a lander to to to do that is challenging. Um and one of the biggest challenges is the the test environment itself.
▶ 2:00:26When we fly out to the moon there, you can't you can't fly it again. You can't just reset it. Um so when we're flying it's it's oneoff chances. Um that's why that we've seen some of these challenges. we get one chance to get it right and because of our very lowcost budgets, we're trying to find that sweet spot of performance and cost to get the the greatest uh out value for the taxpayer. Yes, sir. Yeah, thank you for the question.
▶ 2:00:49Um, we've been given an incredible challenge on under eclipse to fly roughly for hund00 million to regions of the moon that have never been explored before and do it totally autonomously. So, we're flying in regions that are jagged, cratered, undulating, in the shadows, and expecting to do that without a constellation of navigation satellites, bringing your own navigation to the surface, automation, and landing with precision.
▶ 2:01:14If you recall, the Apollo program was built on the Mercury and Gemini uh programs followed by the Apollo program with a pre-precursor program much like clips called Surveyor. There were numerous failures along the way um as we did that. It did not come easily.
▶ 2:01:31Um the masses that we're talking about taking roughly 130 kg of payload to the surface on a small lander, you know, the surveyor missions carried six kilograms and were mostly structure and and and powered radars for for touching down on the moon. So it is a different technology and we're ask we're asked to do it in a very thin margin and a very thin schedule and demonstrate that it can be done reliably.
▶ 2:01:56So that's kind of the essence of the difference in my Thank you Congressman for the question and thank you for your service. I'm a veteran myself. Um instead of focusing on what went wrong, I'd like to focus on what went right. On Fireflyy's Blue Ghost one mission, we successfully landed. Um we were able to do 14 days of planned lunar surface operations and we even extended in five hours into the lunar night.
▶ 2:02:21Uh and we did this because one example is not just the bold culture at Firefly um and our people but also taking new technology advanced technology from other industries. Our vision navigation system was from farm industry and it was converted to do lunar navigation and we avoided two hazardous obstacles and landed within one meter of our new landing site all autonomously. I also believe in autonomy.
▶ 2:02:50That's the only way we're going to scale for lunar exploration, Mars exploration and beyond. but also for national security. Uh we cannot just have a onetoone relationship between humans operating satellites in in space in order to scale and also lower latency because you know the future fight is going to be real time. You need autonomy. I I I agree to the point well I will always say it's it gets a little scary when you talk about autonomy and defense. I I happen to watch that documentary the Terminator.
▶ 2:03:20It kind of scared me a little bit. Uh, so I want to be careful with the autonomy and defense and and killing machines because we we've seen what that happens. And if I could just make one final point, it's interesting. Back in the day, you're right. We had these massive budgets provided by NASA and the United States government. We're Russian. We're going against the Russians. We're the only two countries that could do anything like that. And we were the forefront of computer development, space travel, all those things that are so important. Now we're going to spend much more money on just interest payments on our debt.
▶ 2:03:48And that's why it's important to get political just for a second. If we don't do something to get our our books in order, it's only going to be the private industry that does all the things that we used to do as a country, and that's really too bad. Thank you. With that, I yield. Thank you. And I would thank each of the witnesses for testifying today. Your valuable testimony is very important to us, and I appreciate your very candid answers. Also want to appreciate the membership for their thoughtful questions. Uh the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions from the members. This hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.
▶ 2:04:22Oh, of course. Yeah, it's important. Several times I went to a