▶ 0:00:00state audit findings that have gone unadressed over multiple years. An absence of meaningful performance metrics and increasing state use of TANF for well child welfare with few accountability measures. Tannif was created nearly 30 years ago as part of the historic Republicanled welfare reforms of 1996.
▶ 0:00:22Thanks to work requirements and time limits, basic assistance case loads have declined, allowing states to shift TANNIF spending to non-assistance. The problem is that TANF has not been reauthorized since 2005, but continues to receive funding on autopilot.
▶ 0:00:40Congress must revisit the program not only to modernize TANF as part of a comprehensive reauthorization but to make necessary reforms to re to recognize the shift to non-assistance spending to improve accountability. My belief is that we need to reclaim Tanner for work do a better job of targeting funding towards the more vulnerable families to the most vulnerable families and restore the program to its original roots.
▶ 0:01:07I know many of my colleagues on this subcommittee share these views and have introduced legislation to make some of these changes. On its current path, TANF is fail is is failing beneficiaries who need economic security. And it's also failing taxpayers whose money should be spent intentionally and strategically to support work. By modernizing the program while ensuring that it continues to serve those who rely on it, we can reduce dependency and empower Americans to uplift themselves.
▶ 0:01:37I'm honored to have our guest here today and look forward to your testimony. And with that, I'm pleased to recognize the gentleman from Illinois, the ranking member, and my friend, Representative Davis, for his opening statement. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and uh I want to thank you for this hearing. I also want to thank all of our witnesses for coming and sharing with us.
▶ 0:02:00I greatly appreciate our subcommittee's bipartisan work on home visiting and child welfare in particular, but I can't sit here this afternoon and pretend that this hearing is anything but a preemptive justification to support cuts that will keep struggling struggling and secure the wealthiest and most secure
▶ 0:02:30people in our country. Nor can I ignore that our Republican partners remain silent while Secretary Kennedy took Elon Musk's chain shaw to the Department of Health and Human Services, putting implementation of all our work at risk.
▶ 0:02:52If our goal is truly to discuss tanniff reform, why do my Republican colleagues continue promising deep cuts in tanniff and similar programs like the social services block grant to pay for tax giveaways to the wealthy.
▶ 0:03:13Cutting Tanner funding will cut child care, child services, and help for struggling parents, making the lives of children and families worse, not better.
▶ 0:03:28If the goal is to make Tanniff accountable, I urge my colleagues to support the bill Representative Chu and I introduced to give HHS the tools they need to penalize states for gross male feasants. State accountability was left out of the original law by design of its Republican drafters, and only Congress can fix that.
▶ 0:03:55If accountability is important, I urge my colleague colleagues to join me in calling on President Trump to withdraw his nomination of Thomas March Bale for HHS Inspector General Given that he was fired from a previous job for mishandling taxpayer dollars.
▶ 0:04:20Focusing on the minutia of tanniff policy seemed to sidestep our subcommittee's obligation to ask more important questions. Are families better off than they were four months ago? And will the Republican Congress provide the supports Americans need to survive the recession and harm caused by the Trump Unfortunately, the answer is a resounding no.
▶ 0:04:51The Trump tariff tax is making the cost of basic necessities like food, housing, and utilities spike, while savings and retirement balances have plummeted by trillions of dollars.
▶ 0:05:07While retirees fear their survival as President Trump and Elon Musk work to dismantle the Social Security administration, I appreciate the work of the experts here before us and I thank you.
▶ 0:05:25But focusing on narrow process issues instead of protecting the people we represent from cruel and chaotic policies is like focusing on the details of a firet truck while the house burns down. Seniors, children, and families need us to act to protect them. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and yield back. Thank you, Mr. Davis. I will now introduce our witnesses.
▶ 0:05:55I'll go from my left to right. First is Jeffrey Arin is the director of the GAO strategic issues team. Next is Kathy Lahren who is the director of the GAO education workforce and income security team. Next James Dalcin is the director of the GAO financial management and uh assurance team. Next is Satato Bdonian is the director of the GAO forensic audits and investigative services team.
▶ 0:06:23And lastly is Roxanne Summerlet who is the director of the Marian County Department of Job and Family Services in Marian, Ohio. Uh we'll first start with you, Mr. Arkin, and you're now recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. Great chairman Lehood, Ranking Member Davis, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting GAO to speak at today's hearing.
▶ 0:06:46Um, today GO issued the final report in a series of reviews of TANO spending and oversight and my GAO colleagues and I will discuss some of what we found with those reports and recommendations that we made to improve oversight of TANF. uh I will start by talking about trends and expenditures and as also on oversight of state reporting on those expenditures by the department of health and human services and then my colleagues will discuss other aspects of tanniff.
▶ 0:07:17States have substantial flexibility to determine how to spend their tanniff funds. The most the two most common categories of TANF expenditures are known as assistance which covers benefits such as cash payments to eligible uh families and non-assistance which covers services like child care or employment training. Since TANA's beginnings, we've seen a move away from assistance spending towards non-assistance spending.
▶ 0:07:43In our recent work, we found that for fiscal 2022, non-assistance spending accounted for about 44% of state's total spending. And that includes the federal tanniff block grant as well as states own uh contributions. In comparison, assistance spending accounted for about 25% of all TANF spending and states spent the remaining share on things like program management or transfers to block grants.
▶ 0:08:11Likewise, we've seen an increase in the amount of unused federal tanniff funds that states have carried over from year to year, which is allowed under the law. As we recently reported, and as you can see on the monitors on the chart in the monitors, at the end of fiscal year 2015, states collectively had a balance of unstate uh unspent funds of $4 By the end of fiscal year 2022, that amount had more than doubled to $9 billion.
▶ 0:08:40And in fiscal year 2023, that amount increased again to $10 billion. Some of those unspent balances are funds that states have already committed or obligated but have yet to to spend. And that's the light blue area on the chart on the monitor. But the bulk of the unspent balances are unobligated or not yet committed to a specific expenditure. And that's the the dark blue area on the figure.
▶ 0:09:07HHS requires states to file various reports that provide information on their TANF expenditures. And we found some issues with those reports that could inhibit HHS's oversight of the program. HHS requires states to submit reports that include narratives describing certain types of expenditures, such as non-assistance expenditures.
▶ 0:09:28In reviewing these reports, we found that some states did not include the required narrative and we recommended that HHS take steps to require those states or rather ensure that those states submit complete narrative in their expenditure reporting. We also found that state reporting did not include detailed information on other aspects of t of states tannif expenditures such as their planned non-assistance spending.
▶ 0:09:55While current law limits what information HHS can collect from states, we recommended that HHS identify areas within its statutory authority uh where it can require states to report additional information. Likewise, we also suggested that Congress consider providing HHS with enhanced statutory authority to collect more information on tanniff expenditures.
▶ 0:10:17And we believe that these steps could enhance HHS's oversight of Finally, previously we found that HHS does not report on estimated improper payments for TANF and estim improper payments are those that should not have been made or were made in the incorrect amount. Uh, according to HHS, again, it's an area where it does not have statutory authority to require states to report the kind of information that it would need to estimate improper payments.
▶ 0:10:45And we suggested that Congress consider providing HHS with that authority. Uh, Chairman Lehood, Ranking Member Davis, and members of the subcommittee. This concludes my prepared remarks, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. Thank you, Mr. Arin. Will now recognize Miss Lahren for five Chairman Lehood, Ranking Member Davis, and members of the subcommittee. Today, I will be discussing two reports that we recently issued on the TANF program.
▶ 0:11:12The first looks at participant and outcome data that states collect on their non-assistent services and how they use that data to monitor and improve their programs. The second looks at the extent to which states use TANIF to support their child welfare systems. As Mr. Arkin explained, state spending on non-assistance is increased as a share of TANF spending.
▶ 0:11:36Non-ass assistance can include anything that is supports one of the block grants for purposes, but within that states have broad latitude in how they use the funds. And states have made different decisions about that spending depending on their priorities. As you can see in the graphic on the monitor, they use it for many purposes including job training, education, child care, child welfare, and other services.
▶ 0:12:06But the question this raises is what do we know about the participants in these programs? Who exactly is benefiting from TANF non-assistance funding and how effective are these programs in achieving TANF goals? To get at that, we looked at the kinds of data states are collecting on participants and outcomes and how they're using that data. A review of seven states found that service providers, those at the local level, are collecting data on participants and outcomes.
▶ 0:12:36They're doing that to make eligibility determinations and to monitor program performance. Just to give an example, Ohio's largest category for non-assistance spending is child care for low-income families. The state collects data on the income of the families uh to determine eligibility as well as on outcomes for children like readiness.
▶ 0:13:00Similarly, Texas uses TANF along with WEOA funds to support employment services and as part of that it tracks outcomes like wage growth and job retention. But that kind of data is generally not reported to the state TANIF agency and there are no federal reporting requirements for TANF funds. So states reported a number of challenges in using data on those served with non-assistance funds.
▶ 0:13:29Challenges that hindered their ability to assess whether services were achieving their intended goals. For example, one state told us they collect data on participation in a marriage promotion program, but they can't assess whether the program improved marriage quality or duration.
▶ 0:13:48HHS technical assistance efforts have focused on improving data related to assistance rather than non-assistance, but individual states have identified promising practices for using data to help improve their That's why we recommended that HHS facilitate information sharing among state tanniff agencies on how they can better use data on non-assistance services.
▶ 0:14:15HHS agreed with this recommendation, but they have not yet it. I'd like to turn now to states use of Tana funds to support their child welfare systems, including addressing child abuse and neglect and supporting children who are in the foster care system.
▶ 0:14:33In a report issued this morning, we found that in fiscal year 2022, states spent 3.3 billion of their TANF dollars to support child welfare, 11% of overall TANF spending. I'd like to direct your attention to the map on the monitor, which shows the variation in how much states use TANF for child welfare.
▶ 0:14:55As you can see, while the majority of states spend less than 20% of their TANF funds on child welfare, a few like Pennsylvania spend no tan of funds on child welfare. Well, states shaded in dark blue, yellow, and red 40, 60, or even 80% of their TANF block grant to prevent or address child abuse and neglect or to support children in the foster care system.
▶ 0:15:20Texas spent the most with $417 million going to child welfare in fiscal year 2022. States also receive dedicated funding from titles 4E and 4B of the Social Security Act for child welfare, but states told us they use TANIF because it's more flexible and can cover costs not eligible for fore We note in our report that our recommendation to improve tanniff data collection efforts
▶ 0:15:50would increase transparency around the mount the amount states spend on child welfare as well as programs. This concludes my statement and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you Miss Lren. We'll now turn to Mr. Dalin for five minutes and I'll just make a note we'll most likely after your opening statement take a break so that we can go over and vote. So we'll take a short recess.
▶ 0:16:13You're recognized for five Chairman Lehood, Ranking Member Davis, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to present our work regarding HHS's oversight of TAN of findings in state single audit reports. Before I cover the results of our audit, I would like to start with an explanation of single audits. The term single audit is exactly what it sounds like, one audit of federal awards.
▶ 0:16:40Each year, states are required to undergo a single audit which is conducted by an independent auditor and ensures that the states have adequate controls over federal programs and are complying with relevant program requirements. Single audits also identify uh deficiencies that require states to develop corrective action plans.
▶ 0:17:02In a report we issued last week, we reviewed the most current single audit reports for each state and found that 37 states had TANF deficiencies referred to as audit findings. 22 states had at least one TANF finding categorized as a material weakness, the most severe category of audit finding which can indicate critical risk and issues in the federal program.
▶ 0:17:31The reason for these material weaknesses varied by state. Some examples of the deficiencies included failing to collect and maintain sufficient documentation, lack of procedures, and lack of internal We also determined whether states had the same finding year after year and found out that approximately 23% had repeat findings for over two years and some have remained unresolved for more than a decade.
▶ 0:18:01For example, one state had a repeat finding for 15 years. the funding related to the uh state's lack of proper segregation of duties which resulted which could result in someone having the authority to create and approve payments to ineligible applicants. Another state had five material weaknesses that repeated for four years and one which related to an improper payment.
▶ 0:18:29The severity and persistence of these deficiencies indicated that states could improve how they administer the program and that's where HHS comes in. As a federal awarding agency for TAN awards funds, HHS is charged with overseeing the TAN of findings and to help the states resolve these single audit issues. We reported last week that HHS does not have sufficient audit resolution procedures.
▶ 0:18:59As I indicated earlier, some of these problems have been going on for more than a decade. Tracking and measuring the results of its single audit resolution process could help HHS focus on these repeat and severe deficiencies. Our first uh address this issue.
▶ 0:19:19We found that HHS did not issue many management decisions to states timely within the six-month time frame as required uh to communicate it uh HHS's evaluation and uh we reviewed five years of data and found out that HHS issued less than 10% of the management decisions on time within that six-month time frame.
▶ 0:19:45We also found that HHS frequently issued management decisions late. About 23% of the decisions were issued late. We found one management decision letter for a state with four findings that was issued four years after the due date. At the time of our review, twothirds of the required management decisions have not been issued. Timely issuance of management decisions is critical to ensure that states implement appropriate corrective actions.
▶ 0:20:16Our second recommendation addresses this issue. Earlier I spoke about how single audits help ensure states are complying with relevant program requirements. During our audit, we found that HHS did not adequately ensure that it penalizes states for not complying with TANF requirements.
▶ 0:20:36For example, although HHS found several states that did not meet their statutory minimum work requirements, HHS did not follow its own procedures to reduce the amount of TAND funding to the states the following year. Without effective in enforcement, HHS is unable to adequately encourage states to comply with legal requirements, resolve deficiencies in a timely manner, and reduce improper payments. Our last recommendation address this issue.
▶ 0:21:06This concludes my opening statement. I'd be happy to answer questions at the appropriate time. Thank you, Mr. Dalcin. At this point, we'll recess and come back and we'll begin with your testimony, Mr. Beyen. Thank you. We're in recess.
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▶ 1:25:08the witnesses. Our vote series went a little longer than we expected. So, thanks for your patience. Um, and uh we'll continue on with the hearing. Uh, we left off um with Mr. Bagdoan uh who is the director of the GAO forensic audits and investigative services team. You're now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman, um, indulge my allergy voice. I appreciate that.
▶ 1:25:35Uh, good afternoon to you, Ranking Member Davis, and members of the subcommittee. Today, I'll discuss, uh, GAO's January 2025 report on fraud risks in the TANF program. Annual combined spending on TANF totals over $30 billion.
▶ 1:25:52Uh which is potentially at risk for fraud, making it imperative to uh manage risk effectively, especially since fraud risks for federal programs are heightened in the pandemic's aftermath. Fraudsters who hone their craft during this period are opportunistic, agile and techsavvy and target programs such as TANF inherently at risk for fraud.
▶ 1:26:19Risk in such programs is a function of high spending levels, sprawling reach and complex, often restrictive program architecture which collectively could also hamper oversight. In this regard, noteworthy examples from Mississippi and California illustrate largecale tanniff fraud and other misuse.
▶ 1:26:41In Mississippi, according to the state auditor, multiple individuals involved with its tanniff program, including the director of the state's Department of Human Services, potentially misspent, converted to personal use, or wasted more than $77 million in tanniff non-cash assistant grants.
▶ 1:27:01In California, according to court records, several cases involve multiple criminal entities, potentially stealing about $200 million impacting hundreds or more victims by using tech devices such as pinhole cameras to repeatedly skim uh EBT cards that access TANNIF cash assistance at ATM machines.
▶ 1:27:28With a foregoing context, I'll make two principal points about our findings. First, HHS has taken some steps to improve its fraud risk management capacity. For example, it identified 21 fraud risks from various sources whose controls require improvement. We independently categorized these risks in nine groupings such as skimming and diversion as shown on the dual monitors.
▶ 1:27:56And it also created profiles for such risk. Profiles function as a risk's DNA and help prioritize assessed risks and informed decisionmaking including crafting an anti-fraud strategy.
▶ 1:28:12Second, uh these steps notwithstanding, HS HHS, excuse me, still falls short on five fraud risk ma management fundamentals collectively undermining its capacity to manage fraud One, lacking formal procedures for conducting regular fraud risk assessments to keep up with the dynamic nature of risk in programs such as TANF. Two, omitting key stakeholders from these assessments.
▶ 1:28:39HHS did not consult its stake and lo state and local partners in whose jurisdictions uh risks originate as I mentioned in the two uh examples. Three, not clearly defining tolerance, likelihood, and impact for each of the 21 identified risks. This is vital for implementing front-loaded preventative controls. Four, ranking all 21 risks as being equal in requiring improvements in controls.
▶ 1:29:09This counterintuitively defeats the purpose of prioritized targeted action, which is the hallmark of effective fraud risk management. Five, not assessing three additional and potentially significant risks such as EBT card misuse which we independ independently identified and whose impact is enabling fraud is illustrated by the California example I cited earlier.
▶ 1:29:37Given these shortcomings, we made seven recommendations to HHS. It concurred with five of these recommendations and partially concurred with two others. As of today, all of these recommendations remain open. In closing, I'd underscore that managing fraud risks effectively is serious business.
▶ 1:29:57While HHS has credibly taken early steps, it should prioritize fraud risk management for Tannif and act decisively and timely to implement all of our recommendations to address the shortcomings we flagged. This will help ensure that tanniff risks are mitigated and funds reach eligible beneficiaries rather than fraudsters. Chairman Lehood, Ranking Member Davis, this concludes my remarks. I look forward to your questions. Thank you, Mr. Bdoleian.
▶ 1:30:26Uh we'll now turn to Miss Summer Lot uh for your five minutes of testimony. You're Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Leood and Ranking Member Davis, members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity today to provide some testimony on localized non-tiff services as um as provided in my local community of Marian County, Ohio.
▶ 1:30:54My name is Roxan Summerlot and I serve as director of job and family services in Marian County which is home to 65,000 people in northwest Ohio. Uh for context, I would add that Ohio is one of several states that operates a state supervised county administered delivery system for human services as well as public workforce development services.
▶ 1:31:21And I'd like to just briefly walk through some of the programming that we have in our community uh which is considered non-assistant tan of programming. The most important or widely used program uh that we have in our county is our prevention, retention, and contingency program. Uh all 88 counties in Ohio have such a program.
▶ 1:31:47Each is locally developed and designed to be responsive to their own community needs and is authorized by their local boards of county commissioners. In Marian County, our plan emphasizes and uh supports that allow people to obtain and keep employment.
▶ 1:32:07Services under our plan range from car repair, fuel assistance, one-time utility and rent payments, um through short-term training and kinship caregiver supports, as well as contracts with local nonprofits to provide other kinds of work supports. In 2024, we served 853 families.
▶ 1:32:32And to give you a brief example, um, I'll use Michael as an example, who reached out to us to ask if we could help with a car repair. Michael and his wife both work, not at the same place and not at the same time, and they have one vehicle within their family. They have three school age kids. Their vehicle needed a wheelbearing replacement.
▶ 1:32:56And so we worked with Michael and our local uh vendor uh repair shop to get that repair made in such a way that neither he or his wife missed work. Both are continuing at their same employers and Michael still works more than 50 hours per week.
▶ 1:33:15Uh a newer a newer program for us is called the benefit bridge and that is a pilot program that's currently operating in 12 of Ohio's counties that's specifically uh responsive to our employer community um which told us that they often have uh issues working with people in terms of promotions or uh giving them more hours because they're concerned that that promotion will
▶ 1:33:45lead them to a benefit cliff. So with that program, we work directly with people facing the benefit cliff to make sure that they continue their forward momentum and not fall back to rely on public assistance. And that program spans about a 12-month period. Uh next is our year-round youth program that is called the comprehensive case management and employment program or CCMEP.
▶ 1:34:15Um I would be remiss and I would regret not mentioning that uh Cheryl Vincent who is with us today was a chief architect of that program in Ohio. and Ohio made a policy decision uh several years ago that combined Tannif funding along with WEO youth funding to enrich that program and allow us to serve more youth and more inschool as well as out of school youth.
▶ 1:34:44And I have to say that program delivers the most success stories of any program that we have. Um the other program we're just opening applications for this week is our TANIF summer youth employment program.
▶ 1:34:59We receive a state allocation of TANNIF each year for those counties that are um interested in operating a Tanner Tannif um summer youth employment program which places youth at various local employers throughout our community. um that's paid experience and we uh simultaneously work with the OS youth to build what our employers tell us are critical soft skills that they desperately need in their workforce.
▶ 1:35:28Last year we had 30 youth um placed at 14 different employers. We always have a waiting list. We have more employers and more youth that we can actually fund. Um, I will mention Blake from last year who worked at a locallyowned manufacturing plant of ATV, high performance, uh, accessories. And at the end of the summer, uh, that employer called to ask us if it was okay if they offered him full-time employment.
▶ 1:35:58Blake is still employed there, um, and loves that company. In addition to those those TANIF programs, um as was mentioned, Ohio uh uses TANNIF for the purpose of child care, which is a critical work support and uh is often hard to find and harder to pay for. So, um we are able to serve 300 families through that program.
▶ 1:36:26And finally, uh the transfer to title $20 from the tan of block grant uh is mostly critical in the child welfare or child protective space um in the state of Ohio. We do use the social service block grant uh to fund adult protective services and were able to investigate 30 300 cases last year um in that space.
▶ 1:36:53Uh finally, I I would say that I would just reiterate that for all of our programming in terms of program integrity, uh a nod to my fellow testify testifying people today.
▶ 1:37:08Um, each one of our programs requires an application and an eligibility determination um that is um revalidating the most current information that we have for families so that we make sure that we stay uh compliant and we maintain the integrity of the of the tan of block I would offer that our department name uh suggests job and family services that uh
▶ 1:37:38work is really central to everything that we do. And our mission is to first stabilize and then strategize to support families as they find their first, next, or better job and career. Every person's readiness is different and so it is um imperative that we have a continuum of services so that we can s serve families where they are in their life and in their career.
▶ 1:38:08Thank you so much for allowing me the time today and I look forward to answering any questions. Thank you, Miss Summerlot. Um, I want to thank all of our witnesses today for your valuable testimony on this important hearing. And I especially want to thank GAO for their thorough work to dig into some of the concerns raised by the subcommittee. And uh, now we'll proceed to question and answer session uh, by the members of the subcommittee. And I'll begin by recognizing myself. Mr.
▶ 1:38:34Arkin, you mentioned in your testimony that GAO found that states are not reporting complete information about TANF expenditures and most states lacked transparent reporting on subgrantees. For example, in your testimony, you said seven out of 31 states did not provide or had incomplete narrative explanations of non-assisted spending for FY2022.
▶ 1:38:58This is extremely concerning because otherwise it's like a black box that we don't know how much uh behind what categories a state spends in. So my question is uh your pro your pro report provides recommendations for HHS but are there any legislative recommendations you would make to improve transparency of state non-assistance spending so we can know the impact of the dollars and where they're actually uh being spent at.
▶ 1:39:28Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman. Uh, short answer, yes, we do. And, and the issue is most of the reporting requirements on the law apply to assistance spending uh, and actually prohibit HHS from collecting information on non-assistance spending because it's not a specific statutory authority provided in the law. So we think information that's that um allows HHS to ask states to discuss what are they planning to do in the non-assistance area and to whom are they going to provide the funds.
▶ 1:39:58You mentioned the uh issue. That's something that would help not just with oversight of spending but also potentially help uh HHS provide an estimate of improper payments. It's really key information for them to be able to do that. Thank you for that Mr. Orin. I'll next turn to Miss Lahren. Our subcommittee has spent a significant amount of time looking at federal child welfare spending. Last year, ranking member Davis and I worked to pass a bill to reauthorize the title 4B child welfare program.
▶ 1:40:28One of the things we focused on was having a place was having in place the right data and performance reporting so we can see the quality of services and impact on families. According to GAO's recent report, TANF now constitutes approximately 1/4th of total federal child welfare spending, eclipsing state funding through the title 4B program.
▶ 1:40:50To you, Miss Lren, uh do you have data uh about the specific demographics of the children in foster care funded by TANF as we do in the title 4B program? you know, states are collecting data on the demographics of all the children they serve in their child welfare programs. So, at the state level, that data does exist.
▶ 1:41:14But going back to one of the main findings of our report, um data on non-assistance tan funding, there are no federal reporting requirements. So even if that information is available at the state level, it's not being reported either to the state tanniff agency or to HHS. Um so no, the answer is it's you know at the state level they may be be able to disagregate which children are being served by TANF versus 4E or 4B.
▶ 1:41:44Um but that information is not reported up in a way that makes it easily accessible. And do you have a recommendation on either a statutoily statutory change on on fixing that reporting requirement? Yeah, this really goes back to the recommendation that we made um to Congress to give HHS more oversight authority which would include more robust robust reporting requirements for non-assistance spending. Thank you for that. Uh Mr. Din, I'll turn to you.
▶ 1:42:12In your testimony, you said GAO found nearly onethird of TANF audit findings were characterized as material weaknesses. The most severe category of findings that you that was made. As you know, one of the longstanding recommendations made by GAO is to measure and report improper payments in the TANF program. Would applying improper payment payments reporting to TANF help address or minimize these repeated audit findings? And how are how are these two related?
▶ 1:42:45Thank you for your question. I believe it would be a little of each because a material weakness could have a financial implication or it could be related to controls. improper payments relate more to the the dollars and and so for the portion of the TAN of issues that are material weaknesses related to dollars uh that could be subject to the improper payments uh analysis for the other portion that relate to the lack of internal controls
▶ 1:43:16uh it wouldn't fall under the uh improper payments. Thank you. Um Mr. Mr. Boyan, uh, in your testimony, you stated that HHS's fraud risk assessment portal does not have the functionality to assess and determine the magnitude of each fraud risk facing TANF. From your perspective, what are the key components to efficient fraud risk management, particularly as it relates to putting in place the right processes and technology? Okay, thank you for your question, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:43:45The fundamentals are captured in this document which is GIO's fraud risk framework. It's been around for 10 years or so. Uh this is what we benchmark uh fraud risk management at agencies and it includes fraud risk assessments uh defining the likelihood and the impact of these risks. So uh it begins with a an entity that takes the lead in conducting fraud risk management.
▶ 1:44:14um doing fraud risk assessments, crafting a strategy and implementing that and then measuring back to see how effective that strategy has been and and making adjustments. But a fraud risk assessment that gets at what you mentioned is uh at at the core and technology such as deep data analytics can help uh get an agency to that point. Thank you for that. That concludes my questions. I'll now recognize ranking member Davis for any questions he may have.
▶ 1:44:43Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and let me thank all of our witnesses for your testimonials. Economists predict a 60% chance of recession due to the Trump tariff tax.
▶ 1:44:59Meanwhile, Speaker Johnson is determined to carine ahead with deep cuts to the very programs that would help families survive the Trump created recession programs like Medicaid, food assistance, tanniff, and the social services block grant.
▶ 1:45:21And even if some programs remain, the Trump administration has strangled the ability of agencies to be able to help. The administration fired thousands at the Department of Health and Human Services and closed half of the regional offices that manage state tanniff and child care programs, including the one in Illinois.
▶ 1:45:49It was days before the administration even provided an email address for states left without federal contacts. Miss Summerlot, can you tell us more about how Marian County uses tanniff and the social services block grant and how cutting or eliminating them would affect the families you
▶ 1:46:25Yes. Um, Chairman Lehood, ranking member Davis, thank you for that question. In Marian County, um, in particularly responding to the social services block grant, um, and Ohio does transfer 10% of their tan of block grant to social services. Um, in Marian County, um, our agency uses that primarily, uh, for adult protective services.
▶ 1:46:52We contract with our area agency on aging um to investigate and then support um people 60 and over who are at risk of abuse and neglect, self- neglect and exploitation. And probably more critically, um the the majority of the social services block grant goes to supporting our child protective services system.
▶ 1:47:22I think in particularly because fore reimbursements have been diminishing over time and we see a growing number of youth that have multiple needs and more and more complicated needs. So social services block grant reductions would uh likely impact the ability to serve those youth and those families.
▶ 1:47:44and Tan if um I I have mentioned several programs, our PRC program in particular, uh our comprehensive case management uh for employment program for youth as well as um the benefit bridge program which now looks to help people um not fall back as they're continuing their journey forward on uh the economic mobility ladder. Thank you.
▶ 1:48:14Thank you very much. Well, like Ohio, Illinois has a high percentage of children living with grandparents or other families who receive TANF child only grants.
▶ 1:48:28This often is because TANF presents significant barriers for grandparent caregivers getting whole family Can you tell us quickly about how grandparents are served in Marian County? We developed um a a special category of support in our PRC plan for kinship caregivers.
▶ 1:48:58So, we use the Tannif dollars to support them in a variety of ways um including home repair, uh legal services, um basic needs for kids, uh school related costs, uh because um the only support that they're getting is a a small t of cash grant for that child. Thank you very much. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Davis. Now recognize Mr.
▶ 1:49:28Yakam of Indiana. Thank you, Chairman Lehood, for holding this hearing and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. The Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Program, also known as TANNIF, is a critical government program that provides important funding to some of the most vulnerable families in our communities. There are countless examples of positive ways that TANF dollars have benefited Hoosiers. Just last week, I had the privilege of meeting with individuals from the Indiana Diaper Bank.
▶ 1:49:57They shared how through Tanaf funding and community partnerships, they were able to distribute over 7 million diapers last year across the Hooser State. One in two Hooser families often find themselves wondering if they'll have enough diapers to be to be able to send their child to daycare. That forces them to miss work and often deepen the economic hardship that they are already facing.
▶ 1:50:20The Indiana Diaper Bank runs their operations with only three full-time employees and three part-time employees so that they can ensure that the most resources possible are going to the community. This is the way it should be. Miss Lahren, empowering families to help them achieve or maintain employment and improve their outcomes should be the goal of government welfare programs.
▶ 1:50:48Ensuring funds go to activities that support families instead of growing unnecessary bureaucracy is essential to the success of this program. That's why I introduced the reduce bureaucracy to uplift families act which lowers the administrative spending cap from 15% to 10% to free up more taniff dollars to help families find pathways into the workforce rather than expand Do you believe that states should be encouraged to spend more TAN of
▶ 1:51:19funds on activities that directly benefit You know, our work, we went out to seven different states and talked to states specifically about how they're spending their TANF grant and heard stories very similar to the one you just told about the diaper bank. I mean, we heard about really innovative and um important work that's being done at the community level to support families.
▶ 1:51:44Um, and I think, you know, again, what we heard is that very little information about that is is directed upward. So, at at the federal level where we're we're not necessarily hearing these stories because there are no reporting requirements um to uh provide information to the federal at the federal level on how TANF non- assistance funds are being spent.
▶ 1:52:09So do you generally believe that that more TANF dollars from the federal level should be spent on direct benefits to families as opposed to the administrative overhead in the individual states? Yeah, I mean I think what what we saw is that is where the money is going. It is going to benefits and programs that are helping low-income Great. Thank you. Uh, I think Indiana, by the way, is doing a great job in this area uh to keep their respective administrative costs down today at about 6%.
▶ 1:52:36Which frees up more funds to support families and what we'd like to see is more states follow the Hooser model. Another important part of ensuring that funds go to those who need it most is rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. Uh, Mr. uh Bdonian in the GAO report uh quote additional funds needed to strengthen risk, fraud management. Uh the GAO reveal reviewed the fraud risk practices at HHS.
▶ 1:53:00The report shared how most states disperse funds through electronic benefit transfer or EBT cards which allow people to withdraw cash and make purchases. J Oen covered how EBT cards were sold on an e-commerce website with values from $100 to over $5,000. Why is it important to access the to assess the magnitude of fraud Thank you for the question, Mr. Akim. Uh, it's a excellent question.
▶ 1:53:29Um, if you don't know what the risk is, you can't respond to it. That's that's the bottom line. And EBT misuse has been flagged in single audits. Uh, we have discovered it through other means, through our own research. So, since it's a prevalent vehicle of dispersing, uh, TAN of funds, it naturally attracts uh, the attention of fraudsters.
▶ 1:53:53The California examples, for example, uh in this instance, fraudsters placed many cameras in ATMs and recorded the personal information of those accessing uh their funds and then reversed the process and stole the money. Thank you. And very briefly, uh what guardrails do you believe that we should put in place to decrease and prevent fraud?
▶ 1:54:15Well, it again starts with the fraud risk assessments that will uncover what the risk is about and what controls are most suitable to to respond to it. Right. Thank you. And uh Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Yakam. Now recognize Miss Chu of California. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 1:54:32Democrats agree that changes are needed to ensure tanniff dollars aren't used for fraudulent purposes like when Brett Favre and the state of Mississippi diverted millions meant for lowincome families to fund a volleyball court at his daughter's college. But I find it very hard to believe Republicans are serious about addressing this. For example, the GAO has recommended that Congress give HHS the authority to collect additional tanniff information from states.
▶ 1:55:01Democrats actually already introduced a bill to do exactly call exactly that and it's called the tan of state expenditure integrity act led by ranking member Davis and me and it would address what happened in Mississippi by finally giving the federal government authority over how states spend non-cash assistance funds which is 80% of all tan of spending but Republicans have declined to work with us to move this bill forward which is shocking considering all this talk
▶ 1:55:31about fraud, waste, and abuse. We've also heard several GAO recommendations for how HHS and federal tanniff staff can better monitor and prevent fraud, but those were pretty hard to imp to be able to implement after Secretary Kennedy and Elon Musk Doge fired the entire TANIF policy division along with most of the TANIF program integrity staff last week.
▶ 1:55:59They fired the very staff responsible for monitoring TANF fraud and shut down half of HHS's regional offices throughout the country which investigated fraud, waste, and abuse on the ground. And yet, we haven't heard a peep from our Republican colleagues about this. They refuse to even question these firings.
▶ 1:56:26So, let me say it's clear that Republicans in Congress aren't is interested in genuine reform to improve program integrity. So, why are they really holding this hearing? Well, we know they want to pass a reconciliation bill to give tax breaks to the ultra wealthy. And how will they do it? By proposing massive cuts to programs like Medicaid and yes, TANIF.
▶ 1:56:54But to cut a program, they first try to discredit it. And that's been their playbook over and over again. And that's why we are here today. Republicans are simply trying to get set the stage to make devastating cuts to TANNIF. Now, Tannif is not a perfect program, but it is a lifeline for low-income families and a vital source of child care and child welfare funding in many states.
▶ 1:57:21But Republicans want to take this money directly out of the pockets of the most vulnerable children and families and hand it over to the ultra wealthy. It's shameful and Democrats won't stand for it. And Republicans have been silent on the Trump administration's recent cancellation of five tanniff pilots authorized by Congress two years ago in a bipartisan manner.
▶ 1:57:50These pilots were testing new and better ways to promote work and improve outcomes for families receiving TANIF assistance and were going to inform Congress on how to reform Tannif so it's more effective in helping families achieve long-term stability. After a thorough selection process, five states were awarded a pilot, including my home state of California.
▶ 1:58:16But last month, HHS Secretary Kennedy abruptly cancelled everything. And Miss Summerlot, Ohio was one of those five states awarded the TANF pilot, which the administration cancelled. Can you share more about what Ohio had planned to do with this pilot and why this would have been important for families and children in your state? Yes.
▶ 1:58:44Uh, Chairman Lehood, Representative Chu. Uh, thank you. Yes. Um, Ohio's pilot design was designed to build upon the framework that other programs and other pilots like the benefit bridge um have been using and that would allow have allowed us to scale those statewide.
▶ 1:59:06Um currently we have 12 counties that are operating with uh that framework and using uh a holistic approach to look at the entire person's life um and strengthening each domain of that life to ensure that once they get a job they can keep it and they can keep going. So the lost opportunity to scale um was certainly a surprise. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. you.
▶ 1:59:36And I'll recognize Mr. Miller of Ohio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this critical hearing aimed at lifting Americans out of poverty and ensuring that the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families or TANIF, known as non-assistent funding, is focused on helping low-income families have a step up toward economic independence. Since coming to Congress, one of my primary objectives has been to strengthen tools for individuals to have access to the education and training needed to compete in today's workforce.
▶ 2:00:06As discussed, the purpose of TANIF is to provide timelitim cash assistance to eligible low-income families with children, promoting self-sufficiency. In addition to cash assistance, participants may receive other supportive services such as job training, food assistance, transportation, and other resources with a mission of lifting individuals up to achieve their potential and provide economic security.
▶ 2:00:31TANF provides about 16.5 billion annually to states to help millions of low-income individuals and families. In fiscal year 22, states spent more than 44% of federal tanniff and state funds on non-assistance services. The Ohio through through Ohio TANF program, Ohio works forced of OWF provides eligible low-income recipients with such benefits with a focus on workforce training tools.
▶ 2:00:57Also in my state of Ohio, non-cash assistance is delivered under the state's TANIF block grant and provides emergency hunger relief by area food banks to the underserved and low-wage working parents, supplying nearly 2,000 local food pantries through pass through TANF funding. I am grateful for the work of this subcommittee as well as the Government Accountability Office known as GAO to provide a closer look at how states use and account for TANF funds more effectively. Toward that end, I was proud to co-lead with Rep.
▶ 2:01:26carry the improved transparency and stability for families and children's act targeted at timely manner delivery of services while bringing needed transparency to the system to Miss Lren in GAO report HHS could facilitate information sharing to improve states use of data on job training and other services examined a sample of seven states that noted in Ohio specifically resources were deployed for job readiness training resume writing and interview
▶ 2:01:56preparation among other work workplace skills. In addition, the report noted Ohio's benefit bridge program is supported in part by 15 million in TANIF non-assistance funds. The benefit bridge assists low-income individuals who not meet certain eligibility requirements to pay for services such as transit allowances or additional job training. How do these TANF non-assistance workforce training programs help build labor skills capabilities towards self-sufficiency and economic security?
▶ 2:02:26Yeah, these programs really are critical. I mean the the second goal of the TANF program is to promote um self-sufficiency through work. So it is one of the main purposes of the program and these are the program these are the programs at the local level that help to achieve that.
▶ 2:02:43Um what we found is that states are some states are doing a better job than others at collecting data on participants and using that data to improve their programs, make sure they're working, make sure that they are actually achieving those goals, which is why we recommended that HHS facilitate information sharing among states so they can learn from each other and good practices that are going on such as those in Ohio can be shared with other states so there is more accountability and transparency.
▶ 2:03:14Thank you. So, Ohio leads the way. Yes. No, maybe. Yes or no? Yes. All right. I'll take it as a yes. Uh, Miss Summerlop, welcome. As you know in your testimony, Ohio works first and prevention, retention, and contingency PRC's program goals to help families retain employment in order to divert them from needed long-term cash assistance.
▶ 2:03:38Please share further how this and the Ohio benefit bridge program help individuals access job training and associated needs such as transportation and other challenges to entering the workforce. And really quick oh IO there we go. All right. Yes.
▶ 2:03:55quickly in in both programs um PRC and the benefit bridge uh the first step it is again um evaluating what people have um already and then building a plan to strengthen their um situation um often including employment and training. So typically along a career path usually health care, manufacturing in demand occupations.
▶ 2:04:22Um but education is and training is always part of the plan. Thank you, Miss Summerlaw. Um Mr. Chairman, I have more questions I'll submit uh for the record, but it seems as if Ohio leads the way. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Miller. Uh I'll now recognize Miss Moore of Wisconsin.
▶ 2:04:50I just want to thank uh the chairman, the ranking member, and all of the witnesses who have appeared here today. I just want to just uh reflect on uh 1995 when I was a state senator in Wisconsin and the honorable governor Tommy Jeep. Thompson uh ended welfare as we know it. And of course, we know that President then President Clinton and N. Gingrich agreed with it. They ended welfare. We know it.
▶ 2:05:15So for the first time since the Social Security Act was put in place, the guarantee that we gave to people five years old and 6 years old and 3 months old that baby, no matter what the employment condition is with your parents, no matter if somebody is in jail or out of work, baby, we are not going to let you starve. We're not going to let you be outdoors. We broke that promise to babies right then and I was at the scene of the crime when it happened.
▶ 2:05:45I had a hundred amendments that could have fixed uh Tannif the successor program at that point. But you know it was very hard to do given the um the deliberate buildup of ending support to little children had started like back in the 60s. And it was all based on a big lie that Ronald Reagan pushed with a fictional character.
▶ 2:06:09This welfare queen who was riding a Cadillac and eating lobster dinners and had 80 names, 30 addresses, 15 telephone numbers, social security and VA benefits from four deceased fictional husbands and didn't mention the kids. So, and nowadays it's some white dude that's in his parents' basement playing Call of Duty all day.
▶ 2:06:34And so, we have we we have built the audience to to treat this program like it's all waste, fraud, and abuse. Well, I'll tell you you I see that the GAO has identified areas of waste, fraud, and abuse that are here. How about the $4.5 trillion dollar worth of tax giveaways that we're about to pass through this committee? Republicans have perpetuated these boogeyman lies.
▶ 2:07:01But if they really want to find the boogeyman, they ought to look at people like the former great NFL quarterback who was able to build a volleyball court based on the flexibility that we gave states.
▶ 2:07:17And indeed, a lot of this money, as some of my colleagues here have pointed out, have not gone into intervening in the poverty of these six-month old babies, but it's gone into building a huge bureaucracy of people who chase poor people around and berate them all day. You know, you had a chance, as Miss Chu indicated, to do something with closing the loop so that the Brett Favre of the world wouldn't happen. You guys wouldn't take that up.
▶ 2:07:46Last week, the Trump administration fired everybody in TANF. Everybody, the whole Department of Health and Human Services, including the lead staffer for TANF. How are you going to improve this program or deliver services to sixmonth-old Joey with no staff? Additionally, your reconciliation bill includes cutting the TANIF block grant and eliminating the social services block grant.
▶ 2:08:14And I heard you, Miss Summer Lot, talk about how you help seniors with this meals on wheels. All that's going to be gone. So, we're not going to help six-month old babies. We're not going to help old people. You know, we're going to talk about waste, fraud, and abuse. Um, uh, and say that these recipients are that, let me just say this. I my time is running out, so I'm going I want to give my colleagues some credit for what they have done.
▶ 2:08:41They've used tann of funds and diverted it to fund anti-abortion clinics. They've had a stingy child tax credit where they left 19 million of the very very very very poorest children with no assistance. Every Republican voted for a budget which requires 880 billion dollars in cuts to Medicaid, which is the same amount we spend on Medicaid for all children.
▶ 2:09:10They also voted for $230 billion in cuts to SNAP, which provided an estimated $44 billion in 2016 to help families with children buy groceries. You want to know something?
▶ 2:09:24My time is short and I have a lot of complaints, but I do know I joined this committee because I knew that there would be people on this committee that would get back to the primary goal of Tanniff is to stop keep babies and children from starving and being outdoors. And now we are abandoning that purpose. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would yield back. Thank you, Miss Moore. And recognize Mr. Bean of Florida.
▶ 2:09:55Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. A very good afternoon to you and good afternoon work and welfare subcommittee and a special welcome to our allstar panel. Really appreciate you being here. In 2023, Chairman Smith and our subcommittees, uh, distinguished subchairman, Mr. Le Hood requested the, uh, GAO to conduct a comprehensive review of vulnerabilities in the TANF program based on state nonassistance spending.
▶ 2:10:21GAO's review found multiple areas in need of improvement and confirms tann of nonassistance which constitutes 78% of total spending. It lacks basic financial guard rails creating an environment ripe for fraud, waste, and abuse. Congress has work to do. We've got to come together to root that waste, fraud, and abuse out. Every tax dollar is a indeed a precious tax dollar. Uh we've got work to do.
▶ 2:10:51TANF's mission of raising people out of poverty and giving them temporary needy assistance uh is missing its mark. Mr. Bdoleian in the report, additional actions needed to strengthen fraud risk management. GAO shared how HHS identified 21 fraud risk categories including billing fraud, misuse of award funds, misrepresentation when applying for TANIF.
▶ 2:11:16And GAO cites in its report that one instance employees use Tana funds for resort vacations, cosmetic uh surgery, and jewelry. Uh that sounds like waste, fraud, and abuse to me. Uh in fact, I think that's fraud. Uh they were ordered to pay over 3.7 in restitution. What's your assessment, Mr. Bdorian, of HHS existing practices for fraud risk assessments? Is it cutting the mustard, Mr. Bagian.
▶ 2:11:47Well, uh, thank you for your question, Mr. Bean. Uh, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, they have taken some steps, but they are far short of where they need to be. Uh, I displayed the fraud risk framework, which is our benchmark, and that requires to have a dedicated entity to run fraud risk management at any federal agency. 104. We've just got work to do. Uh, the ball's in our court for Congress to take action. That's part of it, but also the states need to be involved.
▶ 2:12:14That's something HHS did not consult with its state and local partners to figure out well what are the risks in your jurisdictions for the risks originating and I'm sure the states are watching this this hearing right now so they're on notice that uh we've got work to do too the the report uh titled child welfare states use of tanniff and other major federal funding sources the report found that the fiscal year 2024 46 states uh use funds everybody listening they used
▶ 2:12:44funds tannif that were for families in temporary needed uh assistance. They used these funds to plug holes in their budget. How about that? Uh that's why Miss Tenny, Claudia Tenny on this committee and myself introduced a bill protect teniff resources for the family act. Can you comment, Miss Laren, uh how states are using tanniff to plug holes in their own budget when it uh sounds like it's going to hurt the intended target of helping needy families. Is that true?
▶ 2:13:14What say you, Miss Laren? Well, one one way that they're using it is to plug holes in their child welfare budget. Um and that money But that not the intended target of Tannif, though. Uh well the first goal of TANF is to keep families in their homes so they can be raised by their parents or kin. So um prevention services uh to prevent children from entering the the foster care system. That is an allowable use. 104. Thank you so much. Mr.
▶ 2:13:44Arin, states have doubled their tanniff unspent balances. They're hoarding this money. They're not using it for the intent. Uh what do you what's the driver? What's the driver u of uh Mr. aren of the increase in unspent funds. Why are they hoarding this money? Thanks for the question.
▶ 2:14:00We we heard a few different things when we we talked to states um in particular the last couple years that amount has gone way up during the COVID pandemic where states received a lot of other funds that uh because they were more timelmited they would choose to use first and because there is no limit on by when you need to spend Tana funds they were able to hold on to those.
▶ 2:14:21There were some circumstances where we heard uh states overestimated the needs on the assistance side and then we heard also that there were circumstances where some of the subgrantees may not have spent all the funds they thought they were going to need to spend or hadn't obligated them as quickly as as they would have. You would agree that this is something that Congress's committee needs to look at to say there needs to be a timeline that needs to get it out the door. Yeah.
▶ 2:14:46I mean in general when we see growing unobligated balances that can raise questions like why is this happening? Is this the best use of funds? Is it being used in the way that is intended? Will a gentleman yield? Thank you. Uh I would if I had any time left I yield back. I'm so sorry Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Bean. Uh recognize Mr. Evans of Pennsylvania. You can ask designed to be flexible.
▶ 2:15:16I yield to Miss B. I I just was listening to my colleagues queries and I just wanted to mention that the program was designed for this flexibility. So the waste, fraud, and abuse we're finding now, the program was deliberately designed to give the states flexibility. And some places have done a great job with it and other places have not. But this was not an accident. A question I have.
▶ 2:15:46I understand that you work speaking to uh Miss Summer. I understand that you work more with Ohio state staff when federal question come up. Do you think the state staff will be affected by these regional office closing and the loss of so many federal Uh we in Ohio, Ohio, our state partners maintain a really good line of communication between the
▶ 2:16:16field staff and the state offices. And I know they our state staff um relies very heavily on federal staff uh to answer our questions um regarding guidance, technical assistance, policy clarification. I will say that when us uh when counties or us in the field ask a question, it's not a hypothetical question.
▶ 2:16:43It's a question that we need u to be on we need answers that are on point and delivered quickly. So to the extent that our state staff is not able to consult with their federal partners to get information that's accurate and to us in a timely way. Um that could be a concern.
▶ 2:17:06M you mentioned in your testimony that TANF is the glue in serving low income families in Ohio. A huge component of tariff is child care funding and every child childhood education for families. State relies on this funding to support foster care, adoption, childcare abuse.
▶ 2:17:28Could you talk about how you use funding with TANF and the social service block grant to funding child care service? How these cuts to these funds would impact your work? Yes, thank you for the question. Um, in in Ohio, the state transfers the full authority of 10% to the child care block grant and also the social services block grant.
▶ 2:17:59Um, in addition to that, other TAN of funds are are um earmarked for child care. Um, child care a as as I mentioned is a critical work support and we have serious um provider shortage for child care and um and and parents find it very very hard to locate um predictable child care in a safe environment
▶ 2:18:30and pay for it. So child care is a top priority for our state and in fact our governor has recommended um an additional or uh $4 million per bienium um of tanniff to supplement the child care program.
▶ 2:18:49Um again, the social services block grant program uh we use primarily for adult protective services for seniors that are in danger of neglect, abuse and exploitation.
▶ 2:19:04And most often the majority of social services block grant and that ten of transfer is for the child protective um area child welfare uh which is um experiencing difficulties in finding funding to address the very complicated needs of youth entering their system. Like to thank some I'd like to thank the chairman. Thank you ranking member. Thank you, Mr. Evans.
▶ 2:19:34Recognize Mr. Moran of Texas for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to all of you for being here today. This is an important subject. The temporary assistance for needy families program, which we refer to as TANF, is one that I know in East Texas, where I uh come from, is used to uh to help those temporarily in need, those families and those individuals when they have those times of need.
▶ 2:19:57uh whether it's through cash assistance or other programs, services like utility bills, uh rental assistance, child care, a lot of lot of things that come the way that are used for uh appropriate times uh of need temporarily.
▶ 2:20:11And we we forget sometimes that uh in 1996 when we created this uh the Republicans created this that uh it was intended to move folks from a federal welfare funding with open-ended entitlement programming to a capped block grant to the states and it hasn't changed the level of funding since 1996. I think that's really important and so we're trying to have accountability and transparency of that process.
▶ 2:20:36But of course these five uh go GAO reports uh show that there's a lot of work that we have to do a whole lot of work. Uh those reports f had findings like uh we've got to have more uh they identified 21 fraud risks in nine different categories including billing fraud, misuse of uh award funds and diversion. Uh there's a lack of data on demographic characteristics that we've already talked about today. Lack of data on participation and outcomes. 99 audit findings.
▶ 2:21:05This was amazing to me uh that we have seen were repeated findings that were never addressed. So there's a lot of work to do. I want to go back to a couple of those and ask you all some some questions about that. Mr. Bdoyan, uh what are some of the biggest fraud risks that you have seen or that you're aware of in the TANF program? Well, the EBT risk uh Mr. Moran is is uh paramount. It is an easy vehicle for fraudsters to target.
▶ 2:21:32Uh there have also been instances of uh falsified uh invoices for uh inflated costs or services not rendered. Uh also the co-mingling of TANF funds uh with other sources of funding uh for assistance basically disguising the original TANF funding and then spending it for non-tiff purposes.
▶ 2:21:57So those are some of the prominent ones that uh we have uh focused on and as you as you mentioned uh all these risks do need a uh really focused assistance over the long term to address uh Miss Summerlot, I'm going to ask you. You just heard that answer from Miss Mr. Bdoleian. You put some of these things into practice day after day.
▶ 2:22:20Does it bother you to hear that some of these funds are being misused in a way or captured in a way that is not intended for the purpose and for those needy families that actually need it? Does that bother you? Well, any level of um of abuse, um fraud, waste, um misinterpretation is is of concern. Certainly program integrity and compliance is paramount for those of us that uh work in the program every year.
▶ 2:22:50Um actually um the point about um invoices coming through for inflated costs or um the uh the point uh about um just vendors or providers um for other t of purposes. Um those are problems in the in the program. And so Miss uh Miss Lren, I want to come to you and ask you how how are states evaluating and uh taking care of some of those problems.
▶ 2:23:19In particular, let me ask you specifically about uh the TANF funded non-assistance services such as job training or early childhood education. How are they currently evaluating uh and the improvement and the outcomes for families in poverty? Well, some states are doing it better than others. Um, so Texas actually is a good example because uh they collect the same data on their TANF recipient recipients as they do from their WEOA recipients on their job training.
▶ 2:23:49It's a a whole range of outcomes that they are tracking to determine whether that money is actually achieving TANF goals. Yeah. And other than she will, is there some reason why the other states just don't want to do that or haven't done that? Well, some of them are not aware of these promising practices that um and which is why we recommended that state that HHS encourage states to share information about how they're using data. Um with my last question, I'm going to come to you, Mr. Arkin.
▶ 2:24:19Uh in the GAO report, enhanced reporting could improve HHS oversight of state spending. GAO found that Texas appropriates tannis funds to provide workforce training to individuals and that the states plans to spend down their unspent balance in this manner. Could you provide additional insights as to how states have used TANF non-assistent funds to help Americans gain employment and meet local employment needs lifting people out of poverty and away from the point where they need this help? Uh, sure.
▶ 2:24:48Thanks for the question. I mean that's one of one of the non-existence examples of spending is employment training uh support for training and education to help people uh find employment to helping people become more employable to provide child care for people who need to seek and hold employment. And so that's that's one of the the main uses of non-assistance Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Moran. Recognize Mr. Gomez of Uh thank you, Mr.
▶ 2:25:18um chairman and um I actually was a intern back back I think it was the summer of 1996 and it was for a county supervisor out in Riverside. He was a Republican um county supervisor and I remember um uh the issue of tanniff right implementation and how do you kind of make it more efficient?
▶ 2:25:42how do you um sure that there isn't any any fraud and um I remember I was very interested in it because I believe that at all we can all kind of that we don't want to have um any kind of fraud in any federal program as much as possible because if there is then people can use that to undermine those programs and those attacks um because these programs as we know you know provide cash assistance help people with um child care that can't afford
▶ 2:26:12it. They're so crucial. Um, but I really kind of um want to focus on the on the GOP elephant in the room um is that there's nobody left at health and uh left at the Health and Human Services even to implement um some of these recommendations.
▶ 2:26:33Trump and Elon Musk and his Doge bros fired over 10,000 health and human services workers including e almost everyone that works on tanniff in the policy shop and at the and I think closed the regional office in California. Um so if states can't get their grants approved by health and human services they can't use the uh the money. It's a backdoor uh way to legally cut congressional approved funding funding.
▶ 2:27:02And we've seen this tactic over and over again from this administration. So, I'm I'm glad you're here talking about these fixes, but when they're taking a a a chainsaw, as Elon Musk likes to say, to entire departments, your fixes are not going to make a difference when there's there's nobody there to carry them out. like you guys are are provide great insight, but this is kind of this administration's uh tactics.
▶ 2:27:32Um, Social Security, they ask the staff there, too. So, now retirees and folks with uh disabilities have no way to have their benefits issued issues resolved. Um, also, let's not forget about tax day next week. Um, how can people expect to get their tax refund? um especially the money that they're owed when the IRS staff is being slashed. Um and this is all like tanniff is meant to do what? To help people get by.
▶ 2:28:01But now we have skyrocketing rents. We have grocery prices are getting too expensive. Child care is out of control. And what's going on? Tariffs, right? They're increased the cost of living for working people by $3,800 according to a Yale study for the year. 3,800.
▶ 2:28:20So what I find interesting is that we're about these programs and making adjustments which I think are crucial but when you're fundamentally taking out the foundation of these programs through the department then it's these these adjustments are not going to get what get done what we want Um, one of the things I believe in is good government.
▶ 2:28:50How do we make programs work better? But when there's no one there to do the job, then how how are we going to implement those uh recommendations? So, I I do appreciate all of you being here. You do great work. Um, it is as nonpartisan or uh as possible. So, I I appreciate it. But this is kind of what I'm focusing on is the fact that we have TANF. It's going to be hard to implement.
▶ 2:29:18We're not sure if people are going to get their Social Security tax uh checks. Um the cost of living is going up. Medicaid is going to be slashed. And then, you know, these tariffs are impacting every single person. I have a toddler, Mr. Chairman. Uh it's two and a half years old. And I had no idea how many pairs of shoes a toddler goes through in a given year. Um, and I actually did research. 98% of all shoes are made outside of this country.
▶ 2:29:46Actually, somebody said it was 99%. A given child goes through two to three pairs of shoes per year. So, and the cost averages anywhere from 15 to 60 or even more. So, if you kind of do the math, a family for a child pays $300 to $800 over a five-year period for shoes. That doesn't encount um diapers that are made out of the country, baby wipes, toys, you name it.
▶ 2:30:16So, we got to I think, Mr. uh chairman, I want us to work together to try to undo these these tariffs that are going to hurt working families. And also these programs do matter and I want us to figure out how to implement these uh these some of these recommendations but not in a way that uh just kind of is out there with no real um uh difference in the end especially because there's no staff to carry it out. With that I yield back. Thank you Mr.
▶ 2:30:46Gomez. Um that completes our question and answers today from all of the subcommittee members. Uh let me again thank the witnesses today for the contributions you've made to this hearing today, the work that you've done to put into this. It was extremely helpful, substantive. Um and as we continue to do our work uh as members of Congress on this subcommittee, we look forward to staying in touch with you.
▶ 2:31:11I think what we've heard today uh from the members of this subcommittee is there's a shared interest in ensuring that we improve efficiency and bolster the accountability of TANF to ensure it is supporting the most vulnerable Americans as it was intended. So with that um our hearing is adjourned and please be advised that members have two weeks to submit written questions to be answered later in writing. Those questions and your answers will be made part of the formal uh hearing record. With that the committee stands adjourned. Thank you.