▶ 0:18:48Let's try This hearing of the subcommittee on delivering on government efficiency
▶ 0:19:18will come to order. Welcome everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Welcome everyone to today's Doge subcommittee hearing on federal real estate. This is an area where the Trump administration is taking long overdue action. The federal government owns a massive real estate portfolio of more than a quarter million buildings.
▶ 0:19:49No one knows how much of this real estate is actually being put to use or what it's worth on the open market. Here's what we do know. Taxpayers spend about $10 billion annually just to operate and maintain all of it. American taxpayers have been drowning in debt, inflation, unaffordable grocery prices, high interest rates, and have been suffering to get by.
▶ 0:20:16All while the federal government is pouring billions of dollars into wasteful empty office buildings and luxurious high-end furniture, which they, the American taxpayers, can't even afford themselves. It's quite a hypocrisy. These buildings sat largely empty during the entire Biden administration, which kept federal office workers at home long after the CO 19 pandemic ended.
▶ 0:20:43By the way, truck drivers, first responders, so many people worked during the pandemic. But federal workers could stay home and these federal buildings set empty. Here in DC, GAO found in 2023 that the vast majority of federal agency headquarter buildings were less than 25% occupied, some much less.
▶ 0:21:07Meanwhile, from 2022 to 2024, the backlog of deferred maintenance on the aging buildings the government owns grew from 216 billion to 370 billion. That's more than onethird of a trillion dollars it will cost to restore them if we don't sell them.
▶ 0:21:29What's worse, aside from paying for useless leases and allowing federal buildings to decay, the Biden administration spent billions on high-end furniture for empty buildings during the pandemic. No one was sitting in those chairs or at those desks. Our witness from Open the Books will testify to that. It is only now under the Trump administration that we see a light at the end of the tunnel.
▶ 0:21:58This administration is taking historic action on reducing the size of the government and with it a significant reduction in the useless office space that is claimed to be essential for the government to operate. GSA has established a goal to reduce the size of the federallyowned real estate footprint by 50%. This is a massive real estate auction.
▶ 0:22:25The president issued an executive order instructing agencies to update their property inventory. And to determine which of their government leased or government-owned spaces they don't need. In just the few months since inauguration day, Doge and the General Services Administration have sold off several federal properties and worked with agencies to eliminate hundreds of unneeded taxpayerf funed office leases.
▶ 0:22:54More specifically, they've canled nearly 700 federal leases of 7.9 million square feet of space, saving taxpayers around $400 million. One of the canceled leases was a nearly quarter of a billion dollar 15-year lease at a luxury office building on Pennsylvania Avenue to house Voice of America and the United States Agency for Global Media.
▶ 0:23:22The Biden administration signed the lease late last year, sticking taxpayers with the tab. It's one of the fanciest office buildings in the city. You can see of the building on this poster board. Incredible.
▶ 0:23:41Furthermore, this beautiful building had zero broadcasting capabilities, a capability one would think would be essential for a broadcasting media agency. The cost tax the cost to taxpayers to build out the building with $130 million.
▶ 0:24:03The Biden team wanted to move USA GM and Voice of America from this building that we are sitting in today into that luxury space. Instead, the president is shutting down the whole state-run media operation, and taxpayers will be spared a quarter billion dollar lease and millions more for renovations and security measures.
▶ 0:24:28This is just one example of countless egregious abuses of leases and contracts being paid out across the federal government. Another egregious abuse of taxpayer dollars regarding federal property was the 200 bill 200 I'm sorry 200 million the FBI received last year for a new headquarters in Maryland.
▶ 0:24:52While the FBI was going after the American people, parents at schoolboard meetings, and many others, our federal government gave them hundreds of millions of dollars of American tax dollars for a brand new, beautiful headquarters. Federal agencies shouldn't be maintaining empires at expense. That's why GSA, the federal landlord agency driving this reform process, plans to lead by example.
▶ 0:25:22Imagine that. It intends to vacate its headquarters building in downtown DC and colllocate with another agency. Then it will sell the GSA headquarters. Before I close, I'll note that Congress also acted on this front in January.
▶ 0:25:41We passed a law requiring federal building occupancy to be tracked and for low occupancy buildings to be sold, but it will take a willing partner in the White House to implement that law and to take other steps to shrink the federal real estate empire. We now have that partner and I look forward to working with the Trump administration and Doge to finally rightsize the federal real estate footprint.
▶ 0:26:08And with that, I yield to ranking member Stanbury for her opening statement. All right. Well, good morning. I always enjoy a field hearing, and it's nice to be out in the field here in Washington DC. I'd like to thank the chairwoman for holding this hearing focused on properties that the federal government manages. The General Services Administration or GSA manages roughly 9,000 federally owned properties and private sector leases in all 50 states and territories.
▶ 0:26:38Federal real estate is what makes it possible for the civil service to serve the American people. This is programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, education, care for our veterans, and all of the programs and services that are so vital to our communities. but unfortunately as we know are currently under attack.
▶ 0:27:00For more than two decades across both Republican and Democratic administrations, the Government Accountability Office identified federal property management is a significant challenge, including problems of excess and underutilized space and poor building conditions. All of that is to say that this is a long-standing issue that many administrations have worked on, and it certainly isn't something new. My colleagues and I have consistently worked to improve stewardship of federal real estate so it can better serve the American people.
▶ 0:27:30And that is why I would love to make this a bipartisan hearing about how we address the needs of this country and best serve the people of this nation. The last administration disposed of property saving nearly $2 billion for American taxpayers and recently Congress worked together to pass bills for additional tools to reform and consolidate the federal property inventory. These efforts also directed the sale of four federal buildings, including the one we are here in today.
▶ 0:27:59The inflation reduction act also helped to facilitate property consolidation, including reducing the Department of Homeland Security footprint by over a million square feet and saving taxpayers over a billion dollars over 30 years.
▶ 0:28:14But instead of building on these successes and continuing to do what could be characterized as the tedious analytical work on behalf of Americans, the Trump administration is currently uh taking a fireale approach of looting the federal government and stripping it for parts to pay for tax cuts that we know will come up in their reconciliation deal. Let's be clear.
▶ 0:28:39Republicans are trying to pass legislation right now that would give billionaires permanent tax breaks on the order of $ 37 trillion over the next three decades. And in order to pay for that, they are looting the federal government and taking a page out of the playbook of private equity. Take public assets, privatize them, sell them for profit, lease them back, help your buddies make money. And that is exactly what we're seeing here today.
▶ 0:29:08And unfortunately, we've seen this across the federal government since the Trump administration took office. In fact, we have been deeply concerned that the entire Doge effort has been a front to help support billionaires who are trying to privatize public services. And just this week, we have seen as Elon Musk is on his exit out of the federal government. He has secured billions of dollars in new contracts across the federal government. conflict of interest. Yes, absolutely.
▶ 0:29:38It appears that he has recently secured contracts and promises for contracts at the Department of Defense, NASA. He has installed Starlink at the White House and is asking to install it at other federal agencies. And we understand that there is the potential to potentially deploy his AI technology across the federal agencies to replace the tens of thousands of federal employees that have recently been illegally fired.
▶ 0:30:04That is why we are deeply concerned about the nondatadriven fire sale that the Trump administration is proposing for federal properties such as the one we're in today. So I am deeply distraught and dismayed that we do not have an administration witness with us here today. The GSA is not here to answer questions. That yet again Elon Musk is not in front of this committee.
▶ 0:30:30And unfortunately, we have yet to see a single Trump political appointee in front of this committee or the oversight committee. So, uh, we will continue to do our jobs to elucidate what is happening inside the federal government. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses today and I look forward to talking about how we can actually manage federal properties and the federal workforce to continue to provide the vital services that are needed for the American people.
▶ 0:31:00Finally, I just want to say that it is quite rich to talk about the abuse of federal properties after Donald Trump used the historic postal service building just down the street during his administration to make millions and millions of dollars from foreign governments while they came and visited him in the Oval Office. So, let's make sure that we are doing right by the American people and doing things in a way that is transparent and also in the interest of the public. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 0:31:30Without objection, Rhett. Brown from Ohio is waved on to the subcommittee for the purpose of questioning the witnesses at today's hearing. I'm pleased now to introduce today's witnesses. Mr. David is a director in Goa's physical infrastructure team. He oversees work on federal real property management and the US Postal Service. Mr. joined GAO in 2004. Mr. John Hart is CEO of Open the Books. Mr.
▶ 0:32:00Hart is a veteran of Capitol Hill, having served in the late US representative and Senator Senator Tom Coburn's longtime communications director and co-author. Mr. Hart helped enact landmark transparency legislation to put federal spending online. Mr. Ron Kendall is the executive chairman emiritis at the National Federal Development Association.
▶ 0:32:24He previously served in senior roles in the federal government, including within GSA's public buildings service. Again, I want to thank you all for being here to today. Pursuant to committee rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth?
▶ 0:32:54the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat. We appreciate you being here today and I look forward to your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statement to five minutes.
▶ 0:33:20As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you when you begin speaking. Well, this one may be different. Is it the same? The light will blink. It will. Okay. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow.
▶ 0:33:45When the red light comes on, your five minutes have expired and we would ask that you please try to wrap it up. I now recognize Mr. Moroni for his opening statement. Thank you, Chairwoman Green, Ranking Member Stanbury, and members of the subcommittee. I am happy to be here today to discuss GO's perspectives on how to make federal property work better for the American taxpayer.
▶ 0:34:10For more than 20 years, we've identified the management of federal property as a high-risisk area in need of substantial transformation. The federal government has held on to too much space and has been too slow in resetting underused properties. Federal buildings are often in poor condition and not well configured for the modern workplace.
▶ 0:34:29And the data needed to make good real property decisions has often been unreliable and in some cases The pandemic shined a spotlight on these long-standing problems and created a unique opportunity to rightsize the federal government's property holdings. While there have been important actions in recent years to take advantage of this opportunity, progress has been slow. Agencies were in a wait and see mode for too long.
▶ 0:34:58Since January, there has been a notable shift in momentum. GSA is now rapidly moving forward with plans to terminate leases and dispose of large amounts of federal property. This has disrupted the long-standing inertia that has slowed previous efforts to reshape the federal government's real property holdings. There is a risk of moving too fast. Most buildings have active tenants and recloating them could be costly.
▶ 0:35:22As a result, as GSA and other agencies move forward, it's important that they balance the goal of speedy reductions with the need for deliberate planning. This will best ensure the most efficient and effective result for the American taxpayer. There are a lot of moving parts right now that will shape federal property for years to come. First, the Trump administration's return to office policy and his reductions in force are still relatively early in their implementation.
▶ 0:35:48Second, agencies will be measuring building utilization across all their owned and lease space for the very first time starting this summer. Third, it's going to take time and money to move out of properties and consolidate into others. So, agencies will need to prioritize. The administration will have better information on each of these data points by this summer to help inform its efforts. GSA and other agencies should use that new information to sequence real property reductions in a way that makes the most sense.
▶ 0:36:17GSA's recent decision to take an incremental approach to property disposals by starting with own buildings that are clearly not needed is a positive step in this direction. Taking a deliberate and strategic approach to real property reductions could generate substantial savings for the taxpayer and mitigate the risk of costly mistakes and unexpected mission impacts. In conclusion, right sizing the federal government's real property holdings is long overdue.
▶ 0:36:43As the administration moves forward with reductions, they should do so deliberately in a way that balances speed with planning. Doing so will best position the federal government to achieve the most efficient and effective result for the American taxpayer while ensuring agencies have the right space to successfully carry out their missions. Madam Chairwoman, that concludes my opening statement. I'll be happy to answer any questions. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Hart for his opening statement. Madam Chair, Green Ranking Member Stanbury and distinguished members.
▶ 0:37:13Thank you for having me today at this hearing. As we gather in this cavernous auditorium, we have an opportunity to reflect on not just the costly problem that Chairman Green described in her opening statement, but its root causes. Today's expansive, excessive, and sometimes opulent federal real estate portfolio is both a monument to the administrative state and a mausoleum of lost dreams, opportunity, and freedom for American taxpayers.
▶ 0:37:39In the early 20th century, progressives like Herbert Crowley dreamed of managing a complex new world with a managerial class. Cruley believed in quote unquote increasing control over property in the public interest. He would no doubt be pleased to see this auditorium and the administrative state's impressive portfolio of office space.
▶ 0:38:00So this hearing is an opportunity for Congress to turn away from this failed policy of the past and reestablish our founders timeless vision of of limited constitutional government and transparency. At Open the Books, we view transparency as a first principle in a free society.
▶ 0:38:17Our work was in part enabled by landmark bipartisan transparency legislation, the federal funding accountability and transparency act of 2006 or the Coburn Obama bill that I helped craft when I was working for then Senator Tom Coburn. And that bill created us spending.gov and put all federal spending online for the first time. Our founders wisely prioritized transparency and wrote it into the constitution.
▶ 0:38:42Article 1, section 9, clause 7, says that a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time. Note that these words precede the bill of rights, the first amendment, and our right to free speech itself. In the public square, transparency is like oxygen. We can't speak if we can't breathe.
▶ 0:39:06So when we had opened the books looked at the federal real estate portfolio we discovered the high cost of decorating and redecorating the administrative state and to taxpayers today's hearing is quite literally a kitchen table issue. Every family can relate to the cost of furniture. That's why taxpayers are so insensed when they learn that federal agencies are freely spending billions of dollars every year on high-end pieces.
▶ 0:39:32Since fiscal year 2021, executive agencies have spent more than $4.6 billion on furniture alone. That amount could buy 9.2 million American families a modest $500 kitchen table. And of course, workplaces need desks, chairs, and meeting tables. And it's true that beautiful spaces can make us more productive. But beauty, at what cost? And on whose dime?
▶ 0:39:58Do federal employees need seven figures worth of abstract modern art to make government run? The State Department spent $1.4 million on artwork for various embassies, including $200,000 to to procure a pair of custom paintings from a contemporary abstract artist. Do they need high-end leather recliners worth thousands of dollars each?
▶ 0:40:19Our embassy in Islamabad is a place where you can put your feet up thanks to 40 Ethan Allen chairs which cost taxpayers $120,000. During the peak years of the CO emergency from 2020 to 2022, agencies spent 3.3 billion on furniture even as work migrated to Zoom.
▶ 0:40:39The SEC managed to spend $700,000 furnishing a single conference room in New York and social distancing guidelines failed to keep even the Centers for Disease Control from buying solar powered picnic tables with charging ports that by their own rules should have sat unoccupied. And an added burden for taxpayers is that many spaces are in long-term disrepair. As we mentioned before, federal buildings need $370 billion in fixes.
▶ 0:41:06All in all, we have an incomprehensible amount of physical space and furnishings. Too much of it inefficiently procured, leased, and maintained. At Open the Books, we believe taxpayers are demanding transparency and accountability.
▶ 0:41:21Instead of expanding federal agencies, they want they want Congress to expand their agency and their right to pursue happiness on their terms with their own Thomas Jefferson wisely said, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." Every dollar saved in Washington is a dream realized somewhere in America. The administrative state's well-decorated real estate portfolio is a worthy place to start. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:41:53Thank you, Mr. Hart. I now recognize Mr. Kendall for his opening statement. Thank you, Chairwoman Green, uh, Ranking Member Stanbury, other members of Congress, staff, guests, at Brisk. Good morning to all. Um, my name is Ron Kendall. I am the executive chairman ameritus of the National Federal Development Association.
▶ 0:42:20that is a trade association comprised of owners and developers of real estate that is leased to the federal government along with various service providers, financiers, um attorneys, brokers, and so forth. My relevance to this committee's inquiry today is twofold.
▶ 0:42:43First uh 24 years ago when I served as the chief asset officer of the public building service uh I develop I wrote a uh paper called the portfolio restructuring strategy. It bears very closely to what the administration is doing today in terms of disposal of federal buildings. I want to explain that a bit. It's based upon three key findings.
▶ 0:43:09number one that the PBS owned portfolio had significant acrudeed depreciation in terms of physical needs for the properties billions of dollars just as it is so today.
▶ 0:43:25Two is the recognition that GSA was never going to receive appropriations sufficient to be able to cure that depreciation that that all the repairs and replacements that the buildings needed. The third is a critical point. What we did when uh my analysts worked to look at the portfolio's performance, we noticed something very interesting.
▶ 0:43:5115% of the buildings in terms of building number 250 roughly out of 1750 buildings produced 95% of the financial uh what's called FF uh funds from operations a term borrowed from re the reed industry the profitability of the federal buildings fund depended upon 250 buildings that's a small number less than 15% but it constituted 55% of the square footage So the
▶ 0:44:22portfolio strategy was very simple. Take and direct the scarce capital resources that GSA would receive by appropriation to those buildings because those are the ones that are keeping you going. and sell off the balance, but only when you need to, not when the buildings uh are when the buildings fall into decrepit states or when fire life safety issues are pressing and you need to you need to vacate.
▶ 0:44:51There's no need to get out before then. Now some may cons uh uh construe the that this strategy as being very GSA centric in terms of the profitability of the federal buildings fund but that's a mistaken apprehension because it is really good government.
▶ 0:45:10GSA's uh core portfolio, that's how we defined it back then, 24 years ago, is a portfolio of um well occupied high rent buildings in major metropolitan areas. And so by having those buildings in the inventory, you avoid paying high lease costs to the private sector. So it is really benefiting the American taxpayer.
▶ 0:45:36Now, my concern today is that uh the Dogeled uh disposal group um the the noncore buildings that were posted briefly and taken down after a day, 440 buildings consisted of buildings that shouldn't be on that list. Buildings that are brand new like the Vulpi Center in uh Cambridge, Massachusetts. Brand new. It won't need major repair for for 15 or 20 years.
▶ 0:46:05the main justice building was on that. That is a core property. So my my concern is that this is not being done judiciously. The list of core properties is pretty easy to figure out and needs to be protected. So disposal is not the enemy. It's how it is done and it must be done carefully with deliberate study. Um I'm about out of time.
▶ 0:46:33I simply want to talk quickly about uh leases. The It looks to me that there's an um a list of of uh leases that are being terminated purely because they're uh soft term. Uh agencies still have needs for that space. So my my concern is that we are not looking at um agency mission when when terminating soft-term leases.
▶ 0:47:03It's a very important to maintain the viability of agencies to execute their mission. I'm out of time. I uh look forward to questions. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questions and I thank the witnesses for their testimony. Mr. Moroni, the title of your testimony is reducing the government's holdings could generate substantial savings, and I agree with that. And thanks to the Trump administration, we're finally seeing some savings.
▶ 0:47:33400 million on leases, according to the administration. Do you think the government's excess properties exist in part because federal agencies and the bureaucrats who run them have no incentive to move or to give up their space? um just why won't these agencies colllocate and downsize? So there's a number of reasons, but certainly cultural reticence to sharing space is something we've identified in the past. Uh also inertia, for lack of a better word. It's a space you've already had and there isn't as much incentive to move.
▶ 0:48:03It costs money to move out of space at times and agencies haven't always put that up front. There's a number of other reasons possibly too, but certainly those are both uh valid reasons that they've brought up before. Those are reasons that have been brought up before, right? Except their actions are different. They certainly were ready to jump out of this building and leased a very expensive building on Pennsylvania Avenue. Uh recent presidents couldn't overcome that bureaucratic inertia. Uh you're yet President Trump and Doge ended almost 700 leases in just a few months.
▶ 0:48:33That's unbelievable. Has any other administration acted so quickly to reduce the federal footprint that you know of? Uh not that I'm aware of. Um, yeah, the much needed though. Mr. your testimony states that a GAO covert operation last year was successful about half the time in sneaking prohibited items past the guards and into federal buildings. I'm really interested in that. What sort of items um did did you sneak in?
▶ 0:49:04Uh what dangers does this vulnerability pose? Right. So, we snuck in three different items. a multi-purpose tool with a knife, um a baton, like a baton you could use to attack someone with, and pepper spray. Uh all those are prohibited items. All those are things you could cause real harm if you wanted to. And like you said, about half the time we were able to get that through. So that raises concerns. Uh we only did 27 tests and got through in half the time. That suggests other items could be getting through at a at a greater level.
▶ 0:49:31But you got through half the time in 27 tests, correct? And that also comports with FPS is the Federal Protective Services own covert testing program. Wow. That's that is that's definitely terrifying. Um, thank thank you for that. I I have a lot of death threats and several people have been convicted and served time in prison uh for planning to murder me.
▶ 0:49:51So, I I always appreciate the efforts on on every single aspect of security to make sure that people that work within the federal federal government and the capital and and and visitors as well are safe. So, thank you, Mr. Hart.
▶ 0:50:05I appreciate the work your organization has done in making the American people aware how the government spends Americans hard-earned money, including uh this chart behind me here, um shows a disgusting amount of federal spending on furniture, which is what you talked about.
▶ 0:50:22So, how did you go about finding the Biden administr administration spent about $1 billion per year on furniture while federal buildings set empty during COVID and federal workers work from home? Yeah, we do uh chairman is we have access to all federal spending through USA spending.gov and that's a bill that that I helped pass back in 20 2006.
▶ 0:50:46So, we're able to do keyword searches and look at furniture, look for vendors even and identify and and keyword search things like recliners to identify and understand how much the federal government is spending on furniture and and it's really a scope of government problem issue as I mentioned in my opening statement is that when we decide when we decide to have a large scope there is going to be a big cost of furniture. So, it's but it's a it's a very useful way to to think about and and assess whether we ought to ought to have this number of federal buildings.
▶ 0:51:16Yeah, Mr. Hart, we appreciate those efforts. In 2021, the CDC spent almost a4 million dollars on solar powered picnic tables. The CDC at the time was telling people to socially distance with masks and uh uh basically forcing a vaccine that many Americans didn't want. So, what use would its employees have for this uh new new picnic table that has quite the price tag? Yeah, that is it's it's quite expensive.
▶ 0:51:43And and you know, the social distancing guidelines suggested they shouldn't be se seated at that table while they were spending 27. Look at those seats. Look at those seats. That's not social distancing. No, they're quite close. There there's there's a close proximity of those seats to the other person. Yeah. Real quick, I've just got short amount of time yet. I'd like to ask uh uh just basically just for the general audience, is is 238,000 spent on solarp powered picnic tables at the CDC appropriate?
▶ 0:52:12I think the American people thinks that's disgusting. Is 700,000 spent by the SEC for their New York regional office conference room appropriate of taxpayer dollars? I don't think so. What about 6.5 million spent on high-end furniture to redecorate the EPE office? Uh, no. And then 284,000 in Herman Miller furniture for FEMA's headquarters conference center and appropriate use of taxpayer dollars.
▶ 0:52:41I would argue not um I'm definitely over time. So, thank you gentlemen. I now yield to the ranking member uh Stanbury for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Mr. Moroni, I'm grateful that you're here. Uh I know in the report that GAO has published that uh real estate of the federal government has been on the high-risisk list since 2003 and part of that is that we're not disposing of it and taking care of it and as quickly a process is needed.
▶ 0:53:09So I think this is an issue that we have bipartisan agreement on. Certainly if you have if you're overinvested in assets it's something that you need to deal with as a business. But um you know I'm a former OMB employee. I was a uh uh a federal official and I worked on the Department of Interior's uh portfolio.
▶ 0:53:31And one of the things that the American public may not realize is that when the federal government is trying to figure out how to reconfigure its federal property footprint, there's a whole planning process that begins. So, you first work with the federal agencies. You identify are they going to change the configuration of how they're using space based on sharing of desk space? If there's laboratories needed, do they need to be physically located in certain spaces? This is what any company does, right?
▶ 0:54:00They try to figure out where their employees are going to be located. Then there's a planning process with the actual real estate itself because in many cases you can't dispose of your leases without investing in construction and improvements because of the terms of a lease if it's a lease or if you're trying to dispose of the property and get fair market value.
▶ 0:54:20So what I really want to highlight here is that we need an expedited process, but any private company or public entity would have to go through an extensive planning process to do it in a way that would get a fair shake for the taxpayers. Would you agree with that? There's certainly planning steps you want to take. Absolutely.
▶ 0:54:39So the idea of just putting out a list of hundreds of federal properties, including some of the most valuable real estate in Washington DC on the federal mall, including the headquarters of every major federal agency, is not a planning process. That is a fire sale of some of the most valuable real estate properties in Washington DC. Now, we all know that Donald Trump is a real estate developer. Let's not lose sight of that.
▶ 0:55:06uh and certainly he understands the significance of the disposal of properties in the most valuable real estate in our nation's capital. So I think it's important that we keep that in mind as we're thinking about is the intentions of what Doge is doing, are they actually in the public interest? And Mr. Moroni, I I want to also go back to kind of the bigger economic context because I think it actually relates to the issues that we're dealing with this week in the House.
▶ 0:55:35In fact, you know, Donald Trump has put into place tariffs last week that are causing the markets to tank. Uh right now, the economy is in complete freefall and House Republicans are whipping votes to try to get this new package across the finish line that would give permanent tax breaks to billionaires and the markets are completely shook by it.
▶ 0:55:56And I know you uh this is outside your purview, but the issue here is that uh anyone who works in real estate right now knows that this is not a good time to sell real estate. Would you agree with that? It is a challenging time, particular commercial. Absolutely. So that's the point I want to make.
▶ 0:56:14If if we're talking about actually getting value for the taxpayers, then doing a fire sale of federal properties and then putting into place expensive leases where the federal government would spend federal taxpayer dollars to lease back from private entities at this moment as the market is in freef fall and the real estate market is in complete tanking at the moment is not a good use of taxpayer dollars.
▶ 0:56:38like this is a terrible idea at this moment and it needs to be done through a sane process. Now, uh Mr. Hart, I was interested in your testimony and I actually just want to follow up. Uh you used in your testimony a bunch of times this concept of uh dismantling the administrative state and so I'm just curious, do you view the disposal of federal real estate as part of dismantling the administrative state?
▶ 0:57:06No, I I view it as empowering taxpayers and in transferring wealth from Washington to individual Americans. So, I think it's it's probably the one of the best economic stimulus programs you could have. May I ask Mr. Is your agenda to dismantle the administrative? My agenda is transparency and I'm sorry, Mr. Hart. I understand. I just listened to your five minutes of testimony.
▶ 0:57:28I think it's very clear that part of the agenda here is really about uh dismantling the administrative state and using real assets of the federal government to do that. I mean no disrespect, but I wanted to reclaim my time. So the the point here is that things are not always as they appear in Washington DC. And I think it's very clear that this is not about the federal taxpayers and the American people. This is about disposing of federal property and uh and a fire sale to make the wealthy more wealthy.
▶ 0:57:58Thanks. I yield I I'd like to point out that the market's up about 1,400 points. Uh with that, I now recognize Mr. Fallon for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. You got to love the hyperbolic accusations and class warfare all in one sentence. U we have 1500 federal buildings. We have 7,500 leases of other locations, 511 million square ft of office space. And it really comes down to need and want. There might be some people that want all of that space. But do we really need it?
▶ 0:58:27And clearly when you read government reports, even precoid, we didn't need the space that we had. We had too much. Then co exacerbated the surplus exploded. Now, 2022, uh, Joe Biden in the State of the Union address, and I quote, said, "The vast majority of federal workers will once again work in person." Mr. Kendall, do you believe Mr. Biden achieved his Uh, Mr.
▶ 0:58:54Fowl, I believe that uh he uh made a directive which was tempered by agency uh input. There was a lot. So, Mr. Temple, I Mr. Kendall, I'm sorry, I have five minutes. So, do you believe he achieved that goal? Yes or no? We can talk about uh to some degree he did. To some degree. Okay. 2023 Goa report found that 17 of the 24 largest federal agencies used only 25% of their headquarters capacity. And all all 24 not one of them reached over 50%.
▶ 0:59:25And we're talking big ones. Defense, state, commerce, justice, treasury, at this much space when you're talking about operation and maintenance bills are going to be in the billions. leases, $7 billion just on leases. And then there's a backlog deferred maintenance which is now estimated, these aren't our numbers, these aren't Republican numbers, these are numbers from government agencies, is 370 billion. So 17 out of 24, 71% are under 25% and all of them are under 49.
▶ 0:59:54We clearly have to take some of this off the books. So we can be accused of nefarious intent. The point of the the fact of the matter is we are looking out for the American taxpayer. Now you're talking about very expensive real estate in Washington DC, New York City, San Francisco. And to alleviate some of our friends concerns on the other side of the aisle, there is something called strategic sequencing to prevent the flooding of the market. And I would trust somebody that has real estate experience.
▶ 1:00:21Uh the Biden administration, when we're talking about 1500 buildings, 7,500 leases, 511 million square feet of office space, what did they do? Did they take action? Fact matter is they did not. And it is time. It's high time 20 years in the run in in the making to take some action. The US Center of Disease Control as that mad madam chair pointed out spent 230 grand on solar picnic tables. That a good use of government funds. Mr. Kendall, do you think I just wanted to respond to something you just said.
▶ 1:00:51Uh when I did this portfolio restructuring strategy was 197 million. It's now 18. It's 183. So the witness is not recognized. Thank you. Reclaim my time. Mr. Kennel, you're a witness. You You are here of your own valition. Could you answer my question? Do you think that 230 grand for solar picnic tables at the center of disease control is a good use of taxpayer money? I have no opinion. I don't know.
▶ 1:01:20How about State Department high-end furniture, 120 grand of leather furniture in Islamabad, Pakistan. Do you think that's a good use of taxpayer money? I would like to examine. So, no no opinion again. How about the pension benefit guarantee corporation spent 14.4 million about 14,400 per employee on brand new furniture. Is that a good use of taxpayer money? Did it include it? Does it include computers and so forth? So again, yes or no? No.
▶ 1:01:48I don't have sufficient information to make an informed decision. Uh the Biden administration essentially did nothing. And what we've had with new leadership with Doge is terminating 700 federal releases already 10%. That is a chunk. That is a good start. Any building that has national security implications is going to be unaffected and now they're moving on to sell and we're going to do it again with strategic sequencing as well.
▶ 1:02:13I think it should be noted that Democratic witness works for uh a trade association that represents real estate owners who lease space to the federal government. Is that a fair assessment, Mr. Kendall, that is true. Okay. Thank you. Um, then we've got uh something in the when the research that we were doing the McKini Vento Act in 1987, I was shocked to find, Madam Chair, that homeless assistance providers have right of first refusal on any sale of any federal building.
▶ 1:02:41Uh, I think the American people should know that and legislation should be drafted and our office will be doing so to repeal that to give the federal government more flexibility to properly sell and unload these buildings to save the taxpayers, not the super rich evil people, the taxpayers of this country some money. Madam Chair, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Fallon. I now recognize Miss Norton from the District of Columbia for five minutes.
▶ 1:03:11Good luck, ma'am. I strongly oppose OM and OPM's recent directive to federal agencies to quote propose relocations of agency bureaus and officers from Washington DC and the National Capital Region to less costly parts of the country. end quote.
▶ 1:03:41I also strongly oppose the many bills that have been introduced this Congress to relocate the headquarters for federal agencies in the National Capital Region to outside the National Region. These relocations, as we saw during the first administration, would harm the operations of these agencies and waste taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:04:08They would also harm the economy of the National Capital Region and upend the lives of federal workers, many with kids who love their homes and schools. Last month, I introduced a bill to pro prohibit such However, there are specific uh federal buildings in DC that GSA should dispose of in an orderly manner and move the employees from those buildings into other
▶ 1:04:38buildings in DC. These disposals would save the federal government money and could generate tax revenue for DC, increase housing supply, and create new mixed use neighborhoods in the District of Columbia. There is uh precedent for orderly disposals of federal property in DC.
▶ 1:05:04Uh Congress has passed many of my bipartisan bills to transfer unused or underutilized federal buildings and land in DC to the DC government or the private sector, including the Webster School, the development of the warf and the yards, and most recently the RFK Stadium campus. Mr. Kendall.
▶ 1:05:30Uh, I believe that there needs to be an orderly process for disposing of federal buildings in DC as opposed to putting many federal buildings up for sale at the same time.
▶ 1:05:46How would putting many buildings, federal buildings in DCL for sale at the same time affect the price for the price the federal government could get for the buildings and the value of commercial real estate in DC generally. Congresswoman Norton, uh, selling into a down market is not a sagacious plan.
▶ 1:06:15As ranking member Stanberry said, uh, that's a kind of fire sale approach. Vacancy uh, in the office market in Washington DC, and I've been here for 47 years, it's it's the highest rate of vacancy in four four and a half decades. You don't sell into a down market. That is you're going to it's folly.
▶ 1:06:40You're going to get the lowest price possible if you can move the the assets at all. I mean there is of course Mckin Vento as the congressman just made it. It could go some could go the homeless way and others might be public benefit discount conveyances and you get nothing. But the point is it is not you're you're you're loading up a market with uh that's already under distress. So it is it's cataclysmic.
▶ 1:07:10Well, three months ago, Congress passed the bipartisan Water Resources Development Act, which established a clear federal standard requiring GSA to identify buildings for potential consolidation or disposal, specifically uh any with an occupancy rate below 60%.
▶ 1:07:30However, I'm concerned that GSA is trying to dispose of federal buildings without looking at data to judge whether the buildings are needed or not. Mr. Mariny, uh, based on the timeline established in the recent law, when do you expect the GSA would have the information needed to make uh, more informed uh, decisions about privy disposal.
▶ 1:07:58agencies are supposed to start collecting that data in July and then uh they're supposed to report in January. Thank you very much. I yield back. The gentle lady yields and I now recognize Mr. Cloud from Texas for 5 Thank you all for being here. Appreciate you chairwoman for holding this hearing on this topic. It's certainly one that we've talked about before, but one that we've seen very little action on.
▶ 1:08:26You know, one of the reasons and discussion points surrounding uh those who were proponents of teleawworking were that we would save all this money on not needing these federal buildings. And yet what we've seen was, you know, in the business world, what you would do is you'd lose a little productivity with people maybe working remotely, but you would gain that from, you know, less cost and overhead of maintaining buildings and facilities. But of course, in the nature of the federal government, we sent people home.
▶ 1:08:55when we got less productivity and we continue to grow our assets and port uh property portfolios and and now are maintaining uh empty buildings to the tunes of millions and millions and millions and billions of dollars even. Um Biden had as Mr. Fallon mentioned committed to getting the the workforce back to work in person in offices and of course we know that didn't happen. Uh this has really been a bipartisan issue.
▶ 1:09:22Even Obama in 2011 in the campaign to cut waste laid out what would have you could almost describe as the goals of Doge. Uh but we saw very little progress over that. And so our friends in in the left right now are kind of complaining about how this is being done. But one would have to ask them. They had all three bra all the house, the Senate, and the White House just three months ago. Why didn't they do anything about it then?
▶ 1:09:48Um, and so now we uh continue to uh I'm sorry, you're right, a couple years ago, but nonetheless, you had it a couple years ago and and didn't do anything uh with it. Uh and so now we find ourselves to the point where President Trump and the Trump administration is finally doing something about this and this is good for the American people. We must find savings for it. As Mr.
▶ 1:10:11Fallon mentioned the vast majority I think 17 of 24 agencies uh were almost vacant it seems using 25% less and then we have a backlog of 370 billion uh in in maintenance cost backlogs and so we have to we have to do something about this. Um and I think it's worthy to note you keep mentioning selling properties in a down market. Who would benefit from that? Well, that would be the American people who are buying it.
▶ 1:10:39uh these businesses who could buy it up and turn it into a profitable asset, create a property that would bring tax flow to Washington DC, for example, uh income as opposed to a vacant building sitting there being being a burden on the American people. So, there's a lot of reasons to continue to move forward on this. Of course, we want to make sure this is done the right way. Mr. could you speak to kind of the decision-making process that you look to bring?
▶ 1:11:03First of all, thank you for being willing to take up this fight that so many administrations have been willing to talk about and and bring little action to, but uh could you talk about kind of your decision-making process and apparatus as we continue to look forward and how you will evaluate what what properties are are valid and which ones are are not for for sale or right so for for leasing for own properties GSA and the administration in general uh should take a look at first u sequencing makes sense take a look at the properties there already a number of properties that have been previously identified as
▶ 1:11:34properties that should be gotten rid of. Oftent times these are buildings that are underused, have been for a long time and have large deferred mains liabilities. So it makes sense start with those um get those out the door as quickly as you can uh and get those savings.
▶ 1:11:47And then as the new data uh that we're going to have on utilization, which is going to start rolling in in July, comes in, you can use that to further assess where are there additional properties that are underused, we'll have that data for the first time for many buildings and assess what makes next sense in the next trunch to sell off uh and consolidate. This all is going to take money. It does take money to move out of spaces to build out consolidations to reconfigure spaces.
▶ 1:12:10But at the end of the day, you save uh not only do you potentially get proceeds from the sales, uh but you also save the operation and maintenance costs, which have a very long tail and save a lot of money over time by getting rid of buildings that are just too costly to maintain.
▶ 1:12:24Now, now more more than half of GSA's leases, I think it's 4,000 4,18 out of 7,685 are set to expire between uh well 2023, but in 2027, how much of the federal government can save by allowing these uh leases to expire that are not needed, right? Using properties that we already own, right? Well, from a pure financial basis, we spend about $6 billion on leases each year.
▶ 1:12:51So, if you're reducing whatever the math is, I can't do the public math, but it's a substantial amount amount you can get from lease savings, you just want to make sure you know what your end state is going to be. How much space are you aiming for at the end to make sure you're sequencing things in a way that makes sense. I only have 8 seconds left, so I will yield back to the chairman. Thank you. The gentleman yields, and I now recognize Mr. Lynch from Massachusetts for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair.
▶ 1:13:19At the outset, I would just suggest that if if this committee were truly concerned with delivering on government efficiency, uh we might examine the devastating impact of President Trump's uh recent trade tariffs on the financial security of the American people.
▶ 1:13:37In just the two days of of the president's tar tariff uh implementation, US stocks have lost more than $6.6 trillion dollars in The market turmoil has already placed the retirement savings of millions of Americans at risk with more than 44 trillion dollars of US retirement assets tied to the stock market via 401k plans and other retirement accounts.
▶ 1:14:04I know that President Trump has recently stated, "I haven't checked my 401k." Close quote. Well, Americans retirees and and workers that are approaching retirement have certainly been checking theirs. And I can tell you they're alarmed. They're alarmed by the extent to which the president's trade war is pummeling their retirements investments.
▶ 1:14:25Uh so for the average for the average American who's approaching retirement, uh who has about 500,000 in a 401k, uh that American worker lost $35,000 in their 401k in the last last two days of uh Trump's uh tariffs.
▶ 1:14:46So, you know, I I've heard from one of our witnesses is if every dollar saved is a dream realized, then this is this is really a nightmare for the American worker, especially for those who are uh approaching retirement. And uh while the president made great promises in in reducing the costs of groceries, food, uh housing during his campaign, I I I really would like him to get around to that if he could at some point.
▶ 1:15:15Uh so Mr. Kendall uh the suggestion here is that we're supposed to move away from a situation where the government owns the buildings. Instead we're going to move to the private equity model where we sell sell the building uh that is that uh home to the federal agency and then we're going to we're going to pay rent to a private equity firm to to rent that same space out.
▶ 1:15:43Um, in Massachusetts, we just had a situation like this uh with one of our hospitals, actually eight of our hospitals. Um, so those hospitals were receiving a lot of money from Medicare and Medicaid. Okay. They sold the the building to a private equity firm. The private equity firm drove up the prices. The CEO of the of the private equity firm bought two yachts. He's got one of them off the off the coast of uh Ecuador.
▶ 1:16:14Uh but the at the end of the day, the federal taxpayer money, the money that was going to that hospital through Medicare and Medicaid was now going into the pocket of a private individual who could spend it on whatever they want. They introduced the profit motive into the the ownership of of those buildings.
▶ 1:16:34So, how does that work for uh for these government buildings that are now are going to go to Elon Musk's pals who are in private equity and they're going to have to get profit in addition to just covering their their bills? Well, Congressman, uh while my trade association always feels that there will be adequate leasing, the truth is leasing does cost more than fally owned space.
▶ 1:17:00And I make it very clear the the cost to the federal government to borrow long-term is about 2% 2 to 3%. Uh there's a 500 basis point premium to have space that's uh leased. That's what the market charges. So to bring it home to everybody, would you rather have a 2% mortgage on your house or a 7% mortgage? Obviously 2% is a lot cheaper.
▶ 1:17:27Uh so it behooves the government when it can afford to own space to own it and you only lease in the alternative. It's it's a stark world. You have to lease because you don't have the sufficient capital to own enough buildings. But it is a mistake if you have a choice to lease and to sell off buildings and now pay for them uh uh to pay private sector lessors.
▶ 1:17:57It's going to be more expensive if you have a if you have a unique facility that is designed to provide veterans benefits or or some other public service. It makes it tougher for the the government to move. That is correct. Okay. I yield back, Madam Chair. Uh, if I could, I'd ask unanimous consent. A press release from GSA dated December 4th. Without objection, so ordered. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:24And a press release from the Biden Harris White House titled, "President Biden announces new actions to ease the burden of housing cost." Without objection, so ordered. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Timonss from South Carolina for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. We're here because this country faces an existential threat. 36 trillion dollars in debt, $1.8 trillion annual deficit.
▶ 1:18:48And we're trying to find common sense to address unused space and how we can be more efficient with tax taxpayer dollars in that regard. And and this is really a whole of government approach. We have to rightsize our fiscal ship in order to have a country long term. So I guess this is just one small part of that endeavor. And it it really is just common sense. And I'm going to tell you a story about my my my time in office.
▶ 1:19:16I got elected seven years ago and um my predecessor had two offices. They were spread out in my district. I have a fairly small district and they were in some of the highest uh costing office space in my district. And um we only had three employees and we had two uh two offices and they were you know one was in Greenville, one was in Spartanber.
▶ 1:19:36And I just said, "Well, that doesn't really make sense." So, I went to a um wonderful, you know, municipality that is up and coming and I got this fantastic office space. It's actually um more square feet than I had between the two, but it is drastically nicer and it costs less than half as much. So, just in in my one little congressional office, we're probably saving 60 to $70,000 a year. So, that is just pretty straightforward.
▶ 1:20:06And we're going to basically do the same thing across the country. We're going to figure out what we um need and what we don't need and then we're going to um dispose of what we don't need by either selling it or by not renewing the lease. So, uh Mr. the Department of Government Efficiency has already terminated close to 700 federal leases.
▶ 1:20:29What what financial impact has that created for taxpayers that once the leases are drawn out there's about 90 120 days but there'll be this lease savings you won't be paying that lease rent anymore and I mean 700 leases that's likely hundreds of millions of dollars I mean depends on the depends on the properties and I know we're complaining about property in DC that we own so this building is likely to be sold in the next couple of years um do you want to guess at what I mean this is probably what three acres Um,
▶ 1:21:00how much how much is three acres worth uh four blocks from the capital? I would imagine quite a lot. I mean, that's at least tens of millions of dollars. And you know what we we really need in this area? We need housing. And so I I guarantee you that a developer, a big bad developer is going to come in, and you know what's funny? The DC city code is going to require them to do 30 or 40% of it as affordable housing. So that'll make some of my colleagues across the aisle happy. There'll probably be, I don't know, a th00and 2,000 units to address the housing crisis in this area because what? This is crazy.
▶ 1:21:30The highest and best use of this property is not what is currently being used. And we're going to transition it to that. And the best part is when they build this massive building uh and put housing in it, they're going to pay taxes. So, we're going to take a a building that is currently um using taxpayer dollars to be maintained, but not very well.
▶ 1:21:52and um we're going to then sell it, get tens of millions of dollars, and we're going to turn around and create a a highest and best use for this property, which is then going to result in it paying taxes. So, I mean, that's the whole theory. And while we can look all across the country for areas that we can save money, I I mean, this is just common sense. Um I I do have a question. So, Mr. Rooney, why is this so hard?
▶ 1:22:22What is wrong historically that has created this problem where we use such a small percentage of property that we lease and that we own? And what are the structural impediments to to to really turning uh this this problem upside down and and solving it? Yeah, I'll point to a couple. Uh there's multiple reasons, but uh the biggest challenge is we're typically talking about underuse. So, it's not a lot of properties that are just purely vacant and empty.
▶ 1:22:47And there are some, but the bigger issue is agencies having space where only a portion is being used. And so, a couple couple of problems. One, agencies typically haven't had the incentive to move off of properties that are underused but not completely vacant. It costs money for them to get the buildings ready for disposal. Uh, another reason is reticence, uh, inertia. You've been in this space for a long time. You're familiar with it. Um, recent years there's been some uncertainty, right? How many people are going to be in the office versus not?
▶ 1:23:14Do we get rid of the space and have to get back new space under I'm running out of time. I want to close with this. Uh President Biden in his State of the Union address talked about how he was bringing people back to work. He didn't do that because he actually wanted to. He did that because the city of DC was crumbling without the the the federal workers coming and uh supporting the businesses that they previously supported. So, I I know that my colleagues across the aisle do not like this effort, but when this building becomes 2,000 apartments, those people are going to then spend money in Washington.
▶ 1:23:45So, it will actually help the economy. Uh, with that, I yield back. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Miss Crockett from Texas for 5 minutes. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. And I can tell you one thing that is crumbling for the city of DC was that continuing resolution that defunded approximately a billion dollars from them. But I will focus on today's hearing. The Republicans recklessness and chaotic approach to reducing the size of government has shown us what we've already known.
▶ 1:24:14Concepts of a plan don't work. This is the committee's fourth hearing and still no one from the so-called Department of Government Efficiency has testified before this committee about their plans to break the federal government. Because as it turns out, breaking the federal government doesn't just hurt people you don't like. It's going to it's not just going to be Democrats who miss out on Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security, or only Democratic veterans who miss out on their VA benefits.
▶ 1:24:43Their approach will negatively impact all Americans. So, it's unfortunate that Republicans have taken a seemingly bipartisan issue and included it as part of their scam to subsidize tax giveaway for billionaires. They haven't proposed anything that will improve the efficiency of the government. Instead, they have put the country on a path to a recession and implemented the largest tax increase on Americans in decades through Trump's tariffs.
▶ 1:25:09This hearing is their latest attempt to try to convince the American people that dismantling public facing agencies will somehow improve government efficiency. Let me tell you, it won't. There's nothing efficient about terminating leases for IRS taxpayer assistance centers during tax season, nor dismantling farmer support offices in rural communities while farmers are trying to survive Trump's tariffs.
▶ 1:25:34And just like their trade policy, there isn't any logic or strategy behind the Trump administration's reductions in force or accelerated disposal of federally owned property. It has been discussed that managing federal property has been on GAO's high-risisk list for more than two decades. Currently, GAO has almost 60 recommendations that the administration could fully implement but decided to ignore. And I'm going to veer off for two seconds because all I kept hearing was fire.
▶ 1:26:03Fire, fire, fire is what I heard. And as I heard fire, it seems like we are talking about an administration that has been hellbent on firing government workers. They are hellbent on engaging in fire sales of our government buildings. And while we are at it, they are lighting the Social Security on fire, Medicaid on fire, Medicare on fire, 401ks on fire, Department of Education on fire.
▶ 1:26:31And instead, what we need to light on fire are Trump's tariffs. In fact, we could probably go a little bit further and fire this incompetent administration. But if we are going to talk about efficiency and worry about some solar whatevers, let's talk about the fact that as of March 30th, Trump's golfing has cost us approximately $26 million.
▶ 1:26:58And the last time I check, we not getting anything in return for that. So I will get back on my remarks, but I just wanted to point out that maybe we need to talk about the president and his golfing habits. In fact, he decided that he was going to golf as the uh markets were tanking. He decided he was going to golf. Instead of receiving four heroes who died serving this country, he has decided that he wanted to play games while the rest of us are really trying to make sure that we can serve the American people.
▶ 1:27:29So, Mr. Moroni, you were quoted in the New York Times article dated March 17th, stating that it is important for officials to have a plan to generate the most savings and that quote, "All of these moving parts point to the need for some deliberate planning." Did the administration consult with GAO regarding their plans to dispose of hundreds of federally owned buildings? No. In your testimony, you highlight that one of the core issues associated with managing federal property is the lack of reliable data to support decision-making.
▶ 1:28:00Is that correct? Yes. Would reducing GSA's workforce by 50% improve data gathering and analysis? I I cannot say they're that's perfectly fine. Um we know that we need experts and not idiots. But Mr. Kendall, we will move on.
▶ 1:28:18Um, in your written testimony, you state some of the actions of this administration suggest that the administration is not following a strategy designed to save taxpayer money and that the administration seems to ignore agency's mission integrity. Why do you think that?
▶ 1:28:34In the list of 20 seconds in the list of projects, there were a couple score social security uh offices, IRS, taxpayer service offices, which those agencies, those end user agencies wanted and yet the administration is cancelling those leases. So, it does imperil mission accomplishment. Thank you so much. I'll yield back. The gentle lady yields and I now recognize Mr. Berlesen from Missouri for five minutes.
▶ 1:29:04Thank you, Madam Chair. I first want to acknowledge these amazing chairs that we're sitting in. I looked them up. These chairs retail for $2,900. This is the nicest chair that I've I've sat in. And I, you know, I've worked at a lot of Fortune I've worked at Fortune 500 companies, worked in the private sector, never had a chair this nice in a building that's empty. Um, I'm speaking to you from a microphone that I looked up right now.
▶ 1:29:29over $1,600 for this very nice microphone that apparently needs video. This is why we're here. We're in an empty building from an agency that decided this wasn't good enough. So, they decided to spend 250 billion $250 million more over a 15-year period for a more luxurious location than this.
▶ 1:29:51So um and with that I I want to say thank you for for this um gentleman here for question when it comes to I don't I'm not I have very limited time I don't want to hear okay I understand I'm just asking thank you so the solution is quite simple reduce the budgetary burden of the national real estate portfolio by disposing of federal properties like the one that we're in today um it could be repositioned it could find a better purpose as was mentioned before.
▶ 1:30:21So I want to ask Mr. how many properties in the federal port portfolio? How many are there? So there's about 277,000 buildings, but that's everything. And how many of those have approximate utilization, their full capacity or 75% or above? There's just not good data. We don't have data. Um, how many are below below 15%. Same thing there. We only know for headquarters.
▶ 1:30:46So I want to show you the American people a chart that we found where there's a list of a number of buildings and on this list you've got for example the James building which
▶ 1:31:24occasion occupied. So this is where we stand. You know, Milton Friedman had a great quote that I want to mention.
▶ 1:32:18say you're committed by making more than half of the current GSA maintains are set to expire. How much money could save by not?
▶ 1:32:42Well, I could I can speak to to the cost of furniture, uh, which is going to be about $1.1 billion on just furniture, and I'd have to get get you the figure on leases, but but it illustrates again is that when you decide to have a massive expanse of federal agencies, it's very, very expensive to decorate and redecorate these agencies and buy chairs like the one you're sitting in right now. Apparently, my $1,600 microphone failed, wasn't working.
▶ 1:33:10Um, you got the $800 So, um, I want to I want to put into perspective a report that we we uncovered from the public buildings reform board's report to Congress. Um, instead of using, you know, what was the accounting that was given to them, they used available cell phone data.
▶ 1:33:29And in 2023, the cell phone data indicated that approximately 441 people occupied the Francis Perkins building, Perkins building on an average day, costing the American taxpayer approximately 800 182,000 per employee each year in operating and maintenance expenses and pay and rent paid. Mr. Moroni, is that a reasonable expense from the American taxpayers? 182,000 per employee. You certainly don't want to spend more on real property than you need.
▶ 1:33:59Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I yield The gentleman yields. And I now recognize Miss Brown from Ohio for five minutes. Thank you, Chairwoman. I wanted to wave on to today's hearing because the General Service Administration is rushing to sell a piece of federal infrastructure in my district, the Anthony J. Celibreezy Federal Building in downtown Cleveland. Let me be clear, this isn't just the sale of a building.
▶ 1:34:25It's a reckless decision that could destabilize essential services for my constituents, displace some 4,000 federal employees, and deal a blow to the local economy. The Celibreezy houses the IRS, the Veterans Benefits Administration, the Defense Finance and Accounting Services, DHS, and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. These are the people ensuring tax seasons run smoothly, our veterans get their benefits, and military payroll is processed accordingly.
▶ 1:34:55Selling this building, especially on an expedited three-year timeline compared to the usual 10 years this takes, is shortsighted and misguided. And what is really what it really represents is another example of Donald Trump and Elon Musk's chaotic and careless approach to cost cutting. In fact, cost cutting is too generous. What they are really doing is looting the federal government and stripping it for parts.
▶ 1:35:21This sale could result in reduced public access to services, lower job security for thousands of workers, and ripple and a ripple effect throughout Cleveland's downtown economy. Local businesses, public transit, and city revenues all depend on the federal footprint of this building. The administration promises to relocate workers to other spaces in Cleveland. That's great. But how how can their word be trusted? They are selling a building while forcing workers to return to the office.
▶ 1:35:51They claim they will look for new lease space as they simultaneously cancel leases nationwide. And they are firing federal workers that provide my constituents and the American people with critical programs and services. So what assurances do we have that they'll actually maintain staffing levels and secure new space for the agencies affected? Or is this just another slash and burn strategy, a thinly veiled attack on the federal workforce under the guise of reform? This building is an anchor for downtown Cleveland.
▶ 1:36:21Removing this presence will not only leave a void in the heart of Cleveland. It will undermine the progress that we've made in revitalizing the city. There is a responsible way to reduce and consolidate the federal government's real estate portfolio portfolio, but this hasty decision is not it. So, Mr. Kendall, can you tell us how does GSA balance the social and community impacts like job loss, transit disruption and economic disinvestment with the needs of the agency?
▶ 1:36:51Uh that's a difficult question. I GSA defers to enduser agencies in terms of what their uh space needs are. They really are a reactive organization in terms of finding space.
▶ 1:37:05They typically the the rule is to use own space and if that's not available to lease space the calabreezy uh building I don't know the particulars of it if it is not in if there's not an exigency about selling it because it constitutes a life safety threat to the occupants it doesn't have to be moved I mean part of the argument here today is that um federal workers are being put in opulent space lease space and in and incurring
▶ 1:37:36great cost, but they could be retained in maybe class B or B minus federally owned buildings and avoid lease costs. GSA is all about avoiding lease costs. So, uh, so I don't know specifically about the mission needs of the agencies that are housed in that building, but my sense would be um GSA is is differential to th to those concerns.
▶ 1:38:03So given your experience at the GSA, how would you characterize the administration's rushed approach? Would their rushed approach to decision-making and shortening disposal timeline lead to more efficiencies or I think that there is a lot of haste going on uh today and I think it is uh uh ill uh ill thought through. I think that a much more deliberate approach should be taken to deciding uh what buildings to retain and what to get rid of.
▶ 1:38:33I also think that the staffing levels uh are endangering GSA's uh the the reduction in staffing. I understand 63% of PBS employees are to be terminated. That's three out of every five. I don't know how uh it was determined how they reached that number and in consideration of what mission needs are and what types and numbers of employees you need to execute.
▶ 1:39:02So last thing I want to get before I run out of time this question in is um the list reported that building utilization is a contributing factor to the need for management of federal property. How is the president's return to work impacting GA's analysis of federal real estate? The gentle lady's out of time. Uh, I now recognize Mr. Jack from Georgia. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you for convening this hearing in an underutilized federal office building. Uh, to establish context for those watching at home.
▶ 1:39:31Our federal government owns roughly 511 million square ft of office space, and that does not include large swaths of military bases. So again, to establish context, if you, like me, watched the national championship last night and saw how massive the Alamo Dome looked, the 511 million square feet of federal office space represents 3,200 Alamo Domes.
▶ 1:39:53If you watched at home, if you're watching this hearing at home, the average square footage of an American home is about 2,000 square feet, which 255,000 average American square uh average American homes. So, that's the scale with which we're dealing when we discuss federal office space. And if I could start with Mr.
▶ 1:40:14um I'd like us to to to look into the 2020 GAO report that just describes how inaccurate the database is that monitors all this federal government. Are you familiar with that report? And could you share a little bit about its findings? Right. We found that the federal real property profile, which is the database for federal real inventory, it's in uh has significant data of liability problems, including something as simple as address information.
▶ 1:40:39And if I'm not mistaken, that report demonstrated that of that 511 million square feet of federal office property, 67% of the addresses and accounting for it is inaccurate. Is that true? That was the case in 2020. There has been some improvement. Um, one of the things that we've, you know, highlighted throughout this hearing thus far is just how underutilized this office space is. And could you walk us through survey? I think there were 24 agencies surveyed. Just how much uh underutilization is there today? Right.
▶ 1:41:08Well, in 2023 when we did that, there was significant underutilization in headquarters buildings. None of the agencies were using more than half of their uh office space in the DC area for headquarters. And about 17 of the 24 were using less than a quarter. So, it was a significant issue. That was two years ago. Uh, we don't know what the picture looks like today because there isn't good data. That should be coming this summer.
▶ 1:41:30And I'm just curious within those 17 to 24 agencies that used 25% or less of federal office space were, you know, which agency was the the most egregious, if you will, at underutilizing office space. So, the lowest agencies were HUD and SSA for their headquarters buildings. Uh, but I will say no one had a great track record in terms of the utilization. Thank you. And in your assessment, how much taxpayer money could have been saved if the federal government had begun rights sizing its property portfolio shortly after the pandemic shifts pandemic shifts to teleawwork became apparent?
▶ 1:42:00So certainly you could get substantial savings. It's about $8 billion a year on owned and leased office space. So any reduction is going to generate a lot of money. Thank you. If I could uh ask some questions, Mr. Hart, um first off, I appreciate your opening testimony and just for the American public, I'd love for you to walk through uh usaspending.go gov. Walk through the the parameters of it. How can we use that? Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the question. So, USA spending.gov was created through the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006.
▶ 1:42:29That was a bipartisan bill that Coburn and Obama wrote. And and what that bill did is it for the first time it took all of the disperate databases among federal agencies and put them together so that the American people could see how Congress is spending their money. And again, this is a foundational first principle of American society is that taxpayers have the right to inspect the government's checkbook. The government does not have the right to inspect their checkbook. So transparency in the founders's vision is not a two-way street.
▶ 1:42:57It's that we have tools to help hold government accountable because it's their money. It's taxpayers money. Well, in that vein, in in the last minute of questioning, I I was alarmed as I think some of our colleagues were in your opening testimony about some of the expenditures you walked through. There were egregious examples of wasted taxpayer money. um and your findings over the course of of your work, what was the most egregious um expenditure that you saw? And uh at the same time, Sue would love recommendations from you as how best we can correct that. Yeah. Well, it's a very target-rich environment.
▶ 1:43:27I think I think it's it the totality is quite egregious where you're looking at a billion dollars spent on furniture. We talked about the picnic table as one where where the CDC told the American people they can't uh sit together, but yet they're spending $230,000 on a picnic table. That violates their own standards. That rubs the American taxpayer the wrong way in every way imaginable.
▶ 1:43:49So I I think what you could do is is really reorganize federal agencies is that you know it's the perfect political moment to cut spending is always a mirage over the next election horizon. But this body has the opportunity to do a to do an agency reorganization bill that will solve all of the problems we're talking about because it's a scope of government question. And and to the question before is that we it's we spend about 80 million a year on leases and that's that's not as much as the own property.
▶ 1:44:19That's a that's a larger number. But there are incredible opportunities for savings that could be produced by having a smart strategic uh agency reorganization. Thank you very much. I yield back. Gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Garcia from California for 5 minutes. Thank you, Chairwoman, and thank you to our witnesses. Um, I think we're again here at another hearing where House Republicans are trying to help Elon Musk get cover uh for looting our federal government.
▶ 1:44:47Uh, Doge and so far this committee has not been about efficiency or better services. It's been attack on programs that we rely on from public health to Medicaid to the Department of Education and of course now to office space. And we all know that Elon Musk and Donald Trump are attacking all the safeguards designed to make sure they just can't sell our government assets to their own companies, but they can also sell them to their friends. Our committee is ignoring the biggest threat from the Trump administration so far, and that is a horrific economic plan, Maggonomics.
▶ 1:45:18Now, Mr. Kendall, we've been hearing testimony complaining that the federal government spent $4.6 billion on furniture since 2021. Do you know how much the US US businesses will pay every year in tariffs under Donald Trump's plan? Any idea? No sir, I do not. Okay. Well, the U US businesses will be paying $654 billion a year and that number will rise and that's just in one year.
▶ 1:45:44Has that number of course is enormously much larger than anything that we ever spend in furniture. We're looking at the biggest tax increase in over 50 years. Now, Mr. Mr. Kendall, the total value of all property held by the federal government is about 330 billion as as stated. Is that correct? I have no basis to challenge that number. Okay, great. So, do you know how much wealth has been wiped out from the stock market in just two days after Donald Trump's tariff announcement? Any idea, Mr. Kendall? It's in the trillions, but I don't know that.
▶ 1:46:13Around $6.6 trillion. So, I want to make sure what people should be understanding here. Last week, we had the largest two-day stock market fall in history. We're talking about furniture and office space while people are losing their retirement accounts, while the stock market is crashing, while Medicaid is under attack. While health care costs are going up, we know that retirement accounts are being wiped out right now as we are holding this hearing.
▶ 1:46:41Companies, many of them, are no longer able to invest. People are losing their jobs. And we're here talking about furniture while Donald Trump is destroying the economy. We also know that predicting a recession, which many are now doing, is looking more and more likely, which we hope of course doesn't actually happen. And while all this was happening and Donald Trump was imposing his tariffs plan, the prices of almost everything, groceries, housing, clothing, computers can be expected to up.
▶ 1:47:11Donald Trump, of course, the next day left to go play golf. Now, Mr. Kendall, were you aware that as the markets were crashing, Donald Trump the next day went out to play a few rounds of golf? I do read the paper, so I did know that. And perhaps maybe instead he should have been working with world leaders or allies to actually work on the tariff crisis, but instead of course he was of course on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, which is a very conservative paper uh as we know.
▶ 1:47:39I think it's clear that Donald Trump could care less about the harm he's doing, doesn't care about American workers or the community. And unfortunately, Republicans in Congress want to debate office space and furniture while the president torches the our own American economy and the global economy. We have businesses right now back in my district and across the country that are getting hammered and suffering and firing employees. But instead, we're continuing to have these really unfortunate, I think, hearings. It's crazy.
▶ 1:48:10It's cowardly. We should stop the tariffs now. And with that, I yield back. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Burchett from Tennessee. Thank you, Chair Lady. Thank you for indulgence and allowing me to be on this committee. I come in here usually ticked off and I leave in worse condition. So, thank you for that. Um, if I ever have a counselor, I'm going to send you the bill. Um, Mr. heart.
▶ 1:48:36Do any members of Congress, their spouses, or their immediate family have any property ownership rights to this property or any federal land? Congressman, I don't I don't know the answer to that question off the top of my head. Okay. Do spouses of members of Congress own real property and lease it to the federal government? And how would we find that out? Because I think I know what you're going to say. Uh I believe the answer to that question is yes. You do? I do believe that.
▶ 1:49:07Was there any way we could verify that information? Well, you go to go to USA spending and search, you open the books, our website, and you can look up members names. You can look up any person's name and and find that information. All right. I suspect that's being done as I speak. Um, Mr. how much underutilized space does the federal government have? Can't say. There's not good data. We just don't have data. That's going to come this summer. Congress has now required it.
▶ 1:49:34But prior to this, once you got outside of headquarters, there wasn't measurement of how much the I hate these studies. Every day we vote on a new study and I suspect there's some warehouse like in Raiders the lost arc at the end where they're putting this and our top people are looking at it and there's these studies are just on these shelves in these vast vast warehouses. Would you agree with that assumption? There are a lot of studies. All right, remember you're whatever. All right. How much would the federal government save by allowing unneeded leases to expire?
▶ 1:50:06Federal government sends about $6 billion on leased office space. So depending on what how many you let expire, you get substantial savings. As I said up here, I uh people chastise the thought of making a profit. To me, that's not an evil thing that allows for more people to be employed. It seems that we have um we have forgotten who exactly who we work for and it's the people back home who are struggling.
▶ 1:50:33I when I was mayor of Knox County, one of the first things I did was I said, "Get me a list of um all the property we own in Knox County and it was amazing to me. We had property in in neighborhoods. We had prop some of it was obviously undevelopable. So, one was on the corner of a small airport. Um it but it was all over.
▶ 1:50:56We had a something listed as a park and it was nothing further from a park and um we ended up selling a lot of this property and we paid cash for schools, crazy things like that. We didn't stay in debt. And to me that just seems like the model that the federal government should adopt.
▶ 1:51:14We should have a listing of the property and the people ought to be able to review that and make better assumptions because I assume I think they're a lot more smarter than we give them credit for and um I suspect that's part of the problem. They don't want to let them look under look behind the uh behind the curtain so to speak. Would you agree with that? It is important to have that kind of data. There is a data there is an inventory that's available online but there are significant issues with this reliability. Mr.
▶ 1:51:43Hart, would you care to address that? Uh, we would we would like to enhance the transparency of all of that data. I think I think it's one of the most important assets that taxpayers should be able to review the cost so that they can make good decisions. And again, the purpose of transparency is to empower taxpayers. Transparency is not a two-way street. The government does not have the right to inspect our checkbook. Taxpayers do have the right to inspect the government's checkbook because it's their money. Mr.
▶ 1:52:11Kendall, would you care to offer your uh I'm all in favor of transparency. No objection. It seems our friends in the media um always strive for that and then uh and we get pretty gutless up here. So, I would hope in the future we would address that. I'll yield my 49 seconds. Back to you, chair lady. Thank you for your indulgence, ma'am. Thank you, Mr. Burchett.
▶ 1:52:37In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for their testimony today. I now yield to ranking member Stanbury for closing All right. Well, thank you very much, Madame Chairwoman. I hopefully I hope that in some ways this hearing has been elucidating, but I'm going to be honest. Just listening here today, I've had trouble understanding the theory of the case.
▶ 1:53:06Now, anyone who's in business knows that if you're going to go in front of a boardroom and present your case, you've got to have compelling data. You've got to have an analysis of what you're trying to accomplish. You've got to have an analysis of the money that you're going to save and a proposal and a plan for how you're going to execute that. And I think the thing that is troubling about the entire Doge exercise is that it doesn't seem to have a coherent theory. It doesn't appear to have a plan.
▶ 1:53:34It doesn't appear to be utilizing data and it doesn't appear to be executing on any kind of coherent theory of how we're saving money for the federal government because as we learned here today, it will actually cost the federal government more money if they sell these vital assets to private companies who will then lease them back to federal agencies for more money.
▶ 1:53:56So, it's it's troubling to try to understand and I think it kind of goes along with the troubling theory of the case that Donald Trump seems to have about the economy overall because as my colleague pointed out, we're sitting here talking about microphones and furniture in an office building while the economy is tanking and trillions of dollars in losses are happening. And we know that the potential for both a recession and costs are going to go up, which will cost the federal government more money.
▶ 1:54:26So, what's the theory of the case here? I've also heard conflicting theories just about this very building that we're sitting in. Is this building too fancy or is this building need to be demolished to make way for housing? It's not even clear what the argument is for this building that we're sitting in having this field hearing in. Now, what I think is interesting about what we heard here today is that some of the quiet part was said out loud.
▶ 1:54:50In fact, what was stated by some of the other members on this panel was that they'd like to sell valuable real estate to private developers, potentially demolish federal building buildings like this, sell them potentially to private equity and developers, and then they can lease back and make money off of it. And that's exactly what this scheme is all about because this is what we're seeing across the entire Doge effort and across the administration. And this is not really about public interest. This is, as we keep saying, the private equity model.
▶ 1:55:20Privatize, buy low, sell high, make lots of money. This is what the Doge Bros are all about. But we know that there is real data coming in July, as was stated by the GAO, that will help us take a data driven approach. This is data that was demanded by Congress. It is bipartisan. Let's come up with a plan if we're actually going to deal with this bipartisan issue. Now, I also want to point out some other ironies and inconsistencies that we heard here today.
▶ 1:55:50One of my colleagues quoted Milton Freriedman, which I found actually quite funny because Elon Musk himself has also been quoting Milton Freriedman over the weekend because he thought the international trade was good and tariffs were bad. Anybody? Anybody? Donald Trump is crashing the economy over tariffs. We also heard my colleagues across the aisle talk about right sizing and writing the fiscal ship.
▶ 1:56:15Well, they're literally about to try to vote tomorrow on a budget proposal that will increase the deficit by $37 trillion over the next 30 years. This would raise the debt ceiling by $4 trillion just this year and would cost the United States the largest amount of debt ever in the history of its 250 years. So again, I don't understand the theory of the case.
▶ 1:56:43If what we're about here is trying to root out waste, fraud, and abuse, make the government more efficient, save the government money, then why on earth is Donald Trump trying to tank the economy? What are they trying to do with the selloff and privatization of the federal government? What are they trying to do with downsizing and firing thousands of federal employees? So, I'll close out by saying this to my friends across the aisle and to the administration.
▶ 1:57:10Hands off our Social Security, hands off our Medicaid, hands off our Medicare, hands off the VA, hands off our education, and hands off our vital programs and the services and the federal assets that make them possible. With that, I yield back. I now recognize myself for closing remarks. Uh, thank you for our witnesses coming today. We greatly appreciate it. And thank you to the American people for tuning in into what is an extremely important issue.
▶ 1:57:39Your Social Security is not under attack. Medicare is not under attack. Veterans benefits are not under attack. But our very existence is under attack. And this has happened by dirty, greedy, lazy politicians and bureaucrats who have plunged you and chained you in $ 36 trillion in debt. You are under attack and you've been under attack by your own federal government.
▶ 1:58:10We're here today proudly to talk about how we can reduce this debt. And this is a bipartisan issue. Selling federal property and returning the money back to the American people is the right way to protect you. And as Republicans, we believe in this and we proudly stand with President Trump, Elon Musk, and their Doge efforts to reduce the size of the federal government, reduce the federal debt.
▶ 1:58:36And we are so grateful and definitely America voted for President Trump to stand up for Americans, the American worker and American companies with tariffs that return the order back to America and defeat the globalist who have attacked American interest, stolen intellectual property from American companies, and have turned rural America into a graveyard of factories that have been shut down.
▶ 1:59:05and American jobs that have been shipped overseas. So, I want to say directly, thank you, President Trump, for standing up for us, and we will be so happy when you stick up for us and make it fair again through these tariffs. The federal government's management of its massive real estate portfolio has been problematic for decades. Everyone knows it. The United States is $36 trillion in debt.
▶ 1:59:33In fiscal year 24, the government spent over 1.8 trillion more than it took in. And in fiscal year 25, the interest on our debt is expected to exceed $1 trillion. Many Americans are suffering every day while the federal government continues to recklessly spend hard-earned taxpayer dollars to foot the bill of luxurious high-end furniture for offices.
▶ 2:00:01or on the flip side, carelessly waste billions on unused buildings and leases. Young people cannot afford to buy a house. For today's 27 year olds, only 33% own their homes versus 40% of baby boomers when they were 27. From 2019 to 2024, housing prices in my home state of Georgia increased by up to 67%.
▶ 2:00:28As did areas all across the country. Everything went up. Life became unaffordable. Over the past four years, under Democrats, overall inflation hit 20%. The cost of food increased nearly 34% and the cost of energy increased nearly 33% and credit card debt was up 50%.
▶ 2:00:51As Americans racked up grocery bills, credit card debt, and couldn't afford to buy a home, the federal bureaucrats recklessly spend their money without a care in the world. In the last year, seven and 10 Americans completed at least one DIY project, do it yourself. And nearly 50% said it was because they couldn't afford professionals to do it.
▶ 2:01:15Americans are either renovating their own houses by themselves because they can't afford to hire a company to do it or in many cases they will have to go without. What do federal bureaucrats do when they need to renovate a conference room or redecorate an office? They spend 700,000 and 6.5 million of your money to do it. American businesses can't afford these types of upgrades.
▶ 2:01:42And the reality is that the federal government is 36 trillion in debt and can't afford it either. As we continue investigating waste, fraud, and abuse, we can look no further. the unconscious unconscionable amount of spending that the federal government spends on empty buildings and brand new high-end furnitureures and something as ridiculous as solar powered picnic tables.
▶ 2:02:09Every year taxpayers have to spend about $10 billion just to operate and maintain it all in addition to backlog of deferred maintenance that is now up to $370 billion. In 2023, GAO reported that 17 of the 24 largest federal agencies use 25% or less of their headquarters buildings capacity.
▶ 2:02:34And none of these agencies ever utilize more than 49% of the building's capacity in an average week. I I just want to inform you that that all happened at the same time with when homeless rates skyrocketed and veterans were kicked out to make room for illegal aliens.
▶ 2:02:54When you own property in the real world, if you breach a term of your agreement, you mismanage your finances, or you miss payments, the lender will repossess your property and auction it off. While the federal government can't miss payments because they will just print more money, they have grossly mismanaged their finances.
▶ 2:03:16And it is time for the American people to evict federal bureaucrats, repossess the properties, and auction them off to the highest bidder. Thankfully, the American people now have the president on their side. While the previous administration did little to address the problems laid out here today, we're finally seeing meaningful progress under President Trump.
▶ 2:03:40The early successes of selling off unused properties and cancelling wasteful leases by the the Department of Government Efficiency shows what can be accomplished with strong leadership. With Congress and the Trump administration working together, I'm confident we can finally resolve this decades old problem and deliver the results and the money back to the American taxpayers.
▶ 2:04:04With that and without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witnesses which will be forwarded to the witnesses. If there is no further business, without objection, the committee stands