▶ 0:09:37There you go.
▶ 0:10:15The subcommittee will come to order. The subject of today's hearing is the fiscal year 2026 budget request for the Government Accountability Office, GAO, the Government Publishing Office, the GO, and the Congressional Budget Office, the CBO. I'd like to thank ranking member Espott, our committee members, controller Jenner General uh Daro, Director Halpern, and uh Director Swaggel uh for being here today.
▶ 0:10:44I'd also like to thank each and every one of your staff for the work they do to help Congress and the entire government function in an uh effective and efficient manner. The Government Accountabilities Off uh Government Accountabilities Office fiscal year 2026 budget request totals nearly 934 million uh dollars, a 15% increase uh from enacted fiscal year 2025 CR.
▶ 0:11:10The US government uh publishing office requests 135 million for fiscal year 2026, a modest increase of 2.6%. And the Congressional Budget Office's fiscal year 2026 uh request is 75.8 million, an increase of 8.2%. Can we close that back? Close it.
▶ 0:11:38Thank you again for joining us today and I look forward to hearing your testimonies and learning more about your budget priorities for fisc year 2026. I now recognize uh ES uh my ranking member Espott for his opening remarks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh thank you all. Uh Do, is that right? Okay. Coming from Espayat, I could feel pain. But uh Mr.
▶ 0:12:05Sue and and Halpern, thank you all for being here today. And I commend uh each of you and your staff for your efforts reinforcing uh Congress constitutional power and role of the power of the purse that we have here and dedicating your resources to keep uh up with that constitutional mandate. Mr.
▶ 0:12:25Dod do it is my understanding that your your term uh ends in December and so we your commitment to government at the GAO uh has been unwavering. We commend you for the your efforts, your work and and we hope that you uh enjoy uh and you kick up your feet and feel the tropical breeze somewhere.
▶ 0:12:49Uh but also uh for fiscal year 2026, the GAO has requested, as was said, $933 million, an increase of 15%. Uh we look forward to hearing about that. Uh the Congressional Budget Office has requested 75.8% 8% uh 75.8 million dollars representing$ 8.2% increase. So we we spoke about that already and we hope to hear more about that.
▶ 0:13:16And the government publishing office has requested $135 million an increase of 2.6%. and we look forward to talking about that and uh I hope that we have a good discussions to understand where these uh proposals are are going and the impact that it will have on the American people and the and the districts that we represent. But we thank you all for your service. I yield back, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Espott.
▶ 0:13:46Uh I now recognize Controller General Daro. Uh your full testimony has been submitted for the record and you are now recognized to provide a summary of your testimony. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Espalot, members of the uh subcommittee. Very pleased to be here today to discuss GAO's 2026 budget request. I appreciate the support this committee has given us in the past. We've returned handsomely on that investment.
▶ 0:14:12Last year, as a result of implementation of our savings, over $68 billion and financial benefits accured to the government. Over the last six years, we've returned $123 for every dollar that you've given us at the GAO.
▶ 0:14:27This year, for example, we updated our high-risisk list, which we keep of areas we believe to be at risk of fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement, or in need of broad-based Uh that work uh has saved over 600 760 billion dollars over the years, about $40 billion a year.
▶ 0:14:47That includes the Medicare, Medicaid program, weapon systems acquisitions, Bureau of the Prisons, VA health care, uh oversight of medical products, food safety, etc. It's a very expansive list of some of the most important functions of the federal government, including tax Uh this year we added improving the delivery of disaster assistance. FEMA stretched way too thin. They're still managing 600 disaster declarations, some dating back 20 years.
▶ 0:15:17Uh there needs to be reform. Over 30 federal agencies participate in this activity. Survivors are confused where to get assistance and and particularly in the recovery period which has a long tail over time. Our work highlighting annual reports on overlap, duplication, and fragmentation of federal government uh has been producing good results. We've had over 2,000 recommendations. 73% have been fully or partially implemented.
▶ 0:15:45That has saved $667 billion uh to the federal government. We'll be releasing our next report, this year's report next month. And so we'll have additional uh opportunities. Uh the reason we're asking for an increase is we had a modest increase back from 23 to 24 of 2.7% increase and of course we've held flat this year in fiscal 25.
▶ 0:16:10We've had to absorb cost of living increases of over 5% 24 2% last year. So our staffing level is down while demand for the congress remains high for GAO work. We get over 600 requests a year for assistance uh from the Congress. Many of them come in the form of the highest priority which is statutory mandates and uh committee or conference reports.
▶ 0:16:37For example, the latest NDAA has 95 mandates for GAO's work. FAA reauthorization, the water resources act have another 50. That's on top of 150 recurring mandates we have that uh prompt our work every year like auditing the financial statements of the federal government example. So uh we're very much looking forward uh to your uh I know careful consideration of our request.
▶ 0:17:06We're also asking for resources to help us uh strengthen our computer security defenses. You know, a lot of the attention recently about uh efficiency in the government or whatever has raised our profile, you know, we're uh anticipating and and seeing more hits on our website by threat actors and others. It's up about 30% this year from what it was last year and last year was high.
▶ 0:17:33So, we need some money in order to be able to do that as well. Uh we're also asking for money to help maintain our headquarters building. We're in the process now of renting out additional parts of that building to bring in some additional revenue that can help offset the cost of that building. And then lastly, I would we're asking for the ability to have uh independent leasing authority for our field offices.
▶ 0:17:59Now, our headquarters building uh GAO is the sole custodian. So, we don't rely on GSA, but in the field, we have to rely on GSA. And of course, they're in the process now of trying to cancel a lot of leases. But since we're in the legislative branch, it's not appropriate for them to have control over our leases. That's why we have independent authority over our personnel and GAO since we're an independent audit organization.
▶ 0:18:26The leasing ability in the field is the last remaining piece that we need to be totally independent from the executive branch that we audit on a regular basis. So I would ask for careful consideration that issue. Since it's my last year in closing, I I also want to commend the GAO people. Uh they for their service to the Congress in the country.
▶ 0:18:48We have one of the most dedicated and talented workforces in the world and I'm just very proud of them and even though I'll be gone, they will carry on in the finest tradition to serve this committee, this Congress, and this country. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Um, thank you, Mr. Doro. And I now recognize Mr. Halpern for a summary of his uh written testimony. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:19:14Chairman, Ranking Member Espat, uh, I am pleased to be here to present GO's uh, FY26 appropriations request. On behalf of my 1649 teammates, uh thank you so much for your support in the past and uh your your ongoing support for GO.
▶ 0:19:34Our request is for $135.4 million for FY2026, which is an increase of about 3.4 million over FY2025 appropriation. This in incorporates increased labor and material costs while accommodating certain important initiatives for Congress and the rest of the legislative branch.
▶ 0:19:58Our FY2026 request represents a 2.6% increase over FY 2025, less than the CPI increase over the prior 12 GO operates as a business enterprise and directly appropriated funds only represent about 9% of our total revenue.
▶ 0:20:18In FY2024, the remainder of our nearly 1.3 billion in revenue came from GO's billings to its other federal customers, including the Department of State, National Archives, Department of Defense, and countless others. We sell products and services to those customers and adjust pricing based on the cost of labor, equipment, materials, and overhead.
▶ 0:20:46As most of GO's appropriations requests are based on funding for Congress's own publishing needs and the AY's administration of the federal depository library program, we have also had to increase our appropriations request when faced with increased costs. Our model continues to deliver results.
▶ 0:21:06We closed our books for fiscal year 2024 with a net positive income of 57.5 million, enabling us to continue investing in our team, uh, our equipment, and our campus. It's also important to note that given the conditions with our customers and increased materials costs, I expect our net income to be lower in FY 2025, though still positive.
▶ 0:21:32Our FY2026 request includes $83 million for congressional publishing, which is flatfunded from the prior several years. It's based on our estimate of Congress's likely needs informed by historical trends and available unexpended balances, and we have factored in increased costs for raw material and labor.
▶ 0:21:55A request for the public information programs account, which lets us fund the federal depository library program, is about 42.9 million. That does represent an increase of about $5 million over FY2025, largely due to increased labor costs. Our final request is for $9.5 million for GO's revolving fund to support key technology upgrades.
▶ 0:22:24Uh and the this account is our request for this account is about $2 million lower than it has been in the past. 40% of that amount will support continued development of XPUB which is our next generation composition engine. We are continuing to push forward with the final stages of development of XPub for bills, resolutions, and amendments.
▶ 0:22:49Um, to date we are on track with the first phase of user acceptance testing with the Senate and I'm pleased to report that the House began testing last month. While I don't have a firm deployment date, we are continuing to make significant progress with our customers and and hope to deploy this critical piece of software soon. The remainder of our revolving fund request is for funds to support Gov Info, our online trusted digital repository.
▶ 0:23:18The data in that system supports the Library of Congress, Congress's own bulk data uh, and dozens of other federal agencies, enabling Americans to access government information digitally rather than just in print. The system receives more than 142 million requests a month, and the subcommittee support uh, allowed us to add 260,000 document packages to the system last fiscal year.
▶ 0:23:47Lastly, our budget request includes our inspector general's full $7.7 million budget request, which will be funded as part of GAO's agency overhead. Chairman Valado, Ranking Member Espot, and members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for the opportunity to testify today, for your continued support uh and the support of your staff uh and I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you, Mr. Halpern. And I now recognize Mr.
▶ 0:24:16uh Director Swagle Swaggel for your summary of your written Thank you uh Chairman Vado, Ranking Member Esspat, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to present the Congressional Budget Office's budget request. And let me start also by thanking you for your continued support. CVO requests an appropriation of $75.8 million for fiscal year 2026.
▶ 0:24:41That is an increase of 5.8 8 million or 8.2% from the amount provided in 2025 and in 2024. The request would address increased costs for pay and benefits, allow CBO to improve its IT infrastructure, and enable us to add staff in areas of especially intense legislative interest. CBO's mission is to provide nonpartisan analysis to the Congress that is timely, rigorous, and transparent.
▶ 0:25:09When legislation is heading to a vote, we provide cost estimates and real-time analysis of amendments, sometimes hundreds or even thousands of them for bills such as the NDAA. We provide analysis and technical assistance for legislation such as we're doing now uh with reconciliation. We produce budget and economic projections that incorporate the effects of recent legislation, recent economic developments, and administrative actions.
▶ 0:25:36As an example, with tariffs, we are analyzing um those changes and looking to uh provide Congress with information on the budgetary effects and the economic effects. Um and we provide analysis of a broad range of policy issues, confronting the Congress, bringing to bear data and research from a variety of sources, including experts suggested by members, for which which we're grateful.
▶ 0:25:58Um, with continued strong interest in our work, additional resources that we're requesting would enable CBO to do even better on both responsiveness and transparency. In 2025, CBO will maintain its staffing of 270 employees and its technical assistance uh for legislation and analyzing the the economy and and budget um effects of proposed policies. Uh, we're reducing expenditures elsewhere this year.
▶ 0:26:27We're deferring some hiring and um waiting on some longerterm improvements in our IT infrastructure for 2026. For next year, a little more than half of our uh requested increase, about $3 million, would cover increases in current employee salaries and benefits and allow CBO to expand in key areas of congressional interest. The full request would allow CBO to add 15 employees to go to 285.
▶ 0:26:57And I would add analysts in the areas of especially uh strong congressional interest. I'd start with health care with macro and dynamic analysis with national security and homeland security including including analysis of of immigration. Uh the remaining 48% of CBO's increase about $2.8 8 million would address the increased cost to enhance our cyber security and IT infrastructure including some of the projects that that are now on hold.
▶ 0:27:24Um uh CBO's requested budget would support our goal to provide budgetary and economic information when is most in most useful to the Congress. We'll support the appropriations committees by providing real real time provision byprovision estimates of the 12 annual appropriation bills and of any supplemental uh bill appropriations bills or continuing resolutions.
▶ 0:27:48We will also respond to thousands of requests for technical assistance and preliminary estimates often on quick turnarounds as committees craft craft legislation. We will provide hundreds of cost estimates for legislation as required by statute and provide those cost estimates before a floor vote for nearly all bills. We'll publish dozens of statutory and requested reports covering a wide range of topics.
▶ 0:28:14Some recent ones are opioids, Navy ship building, uh immigration, uh much more. and we'll offer help by phone, by video call, by email, in person to member offices, to you and your staff as you consider and draft legislation or in response to questions about an estimate uh or report. We're here to support you. In summary, to achieve our goal of being as responsive as possible, CVO requests an increase of 5.8 million with your support.
▶ 0:28:43I look forward to continuing to to provide timely and high quality information to the Congress. Um, thank you very much and I'm happy to answer Thank you, Mr. Swaggel. Uh, for questions, I will call on members based on the seniority of those present when the hearing was called to order, alternating between majority and minority, and then we'll call on members in order of their arrival. Uh, which each will have five minutes and I now recognize myself for five minutes. Mr.
▶ 0:29:10Daro, on March 6th, GAO responded to a request from senators White House Schiff and Padilla with a letter titled observations regarding the Environmental Protection Ay's submission of notices of decision on Clean Air Act preeemption waivers as rules under the Congressional Review Act.
▶ 0:29:29The letter made legal observations on whether the Biden administration's action to grant waiverss to California under the Clean Air Act allowing them to ban the sale of internal combustion engine vehicles was subject to a motion of disapproval under the Congressional Review Act.
▶ 0:29:46While the CRA does not grant the authority to the controller general or the JO to make determinations, Congress does ask the JO to weigh in when an agency has failed to send a rule or potential uh or potential rule over to Congress. This is to ensure that the administrative rules and actions cannot get around the congressional review by simply refusing to send them to Congress. When a rule is sent, GAO has no further part to play in the CRA process.
▶ 0:30:16In fact, GAO has directly stated that beyond weighing in when an agency fails to submit a rule, as long as Congress is not deprived of exercising its powers under CRA, there is no impediment to those powers that a go opinion might cure. And in those instance, GAO has instead chosen to take no opinion. On February 20th, the EPA sent over three Clean Air Act waiverss as rulings to Congress for review.
▶ 0:30:47As GAO had stated has stated previously under the administrative pro procedures act which the CRA follows, Congress has the authority to review any actions that an agency submits for that purpose. Which is why it's very concerning to me that in a matter of eight business days in a seemingly partisan and political move, JO issued observations that the EPA waiverss which have already been submitted to Congress for review were not rulings and therefore not subject
▶ 0:31:17to CRA. Can you point to one other example where GAO told Congress that a rule submitted by the executive branch for congressional review isn't eligible under the CRA? Yeah, I'd be happy to do that for the record in that case. First, I would say this clearly I can say without equivocation was not a partisan issue. We also have responsibilities to respond for legal opinions from members of Congress.
▶ 0:31:46you know, outside of the CRA issue. The reason it was done quickly is all we were asked to do is is to explain our prior decisions, which basically said that orders are not subject to the CRA provision. So, all we do is provide clarification of something we'd already done. It was a pretty clear question, though. Can you point to one other example where Jo told Congress that a rule submitted by the executive branch for Congressional Review Act isn't eligible for review under the CRA? Okay.
▶ 0:32:16All right. General counsel informs me we have not No, we have no out of their exam. Does the GAO have the authority to tell Congress a rule submitted by the administration for congressional review is ineligible for said review? That that decisions done by the parliamentarian. We don't make those decisions. Okay. So the GO does not have that authority.
▶ 0:32:36Your own letter stated in this case we the GAO are presented with a different situation under the actions were submitted as rules under the CRA and it is not one in which we normally issue a legal decision. After that very clear statement go then went on to provide 10 pages of legal observations. Why did you break with your regular practice and weigh in on something that is completely counter to historical precedent?
▶ 0:33:02And because we were asked by three members of Congress to provide our legal views on our prior legal decisions, something we do all the time. This letter was published was pushed out remarkably fast and given that it is inconsistent with normal go appears to be politically motivated. Can you tell me why the go responded to this request with such speed? We were asked to respond. We had already issued the opinion. And can we expect all further reviews to take eight days?
▶ 0:33:29Is that the new president, the new speed that you'll be your department will be acting if they're if they're asked if we're asked to provide uh a summary of our prior decisions? Yes. So, so 8 days is the new standard for those were asked to provide summaries of our prior decisions. All right. I know others want to talk about this as well. So, um and my time's about expired, but thank you. And, uh I'll now call on Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
▶ 0:33:58Swaggo, we are uh living in a cost to living crisis with great uh economic uncertainty and the families that I represent are afraid of what will come next. Uh the president's reckless tariffs um against our neighbors and allies have presented this uncertainty and the markets really continue to tumble as as early as this morning.
▶ 0:34:28You wrote in December that higher tariffs will increase federal receipts. But in your letter, you also explain the negative effects on the economy of higher tariffs. Those economic effects are what really matter to the people that I represent.
▶ 0:34:44Uh though there is a very high degree of uncertainty surrounding the administration's recent announcements, I would like um I would like you to give us a nonpartisan expert opinion on what you should expect under the question is under President's uh Trump's tariff policy, should we expect the price of consumer and capital goods to be more expensive or less expensive? Okay. Uh uh thank you, Sarah. Yes, we're we're analyzing the tariff announcements.
▶ 0:35:14Um, and to directly answer the question, the price of consumer goods, the the things bought by families, by households, and the prices paid by businesses will go up. The tariffs will uh uh reduce the efficiency of the economy, lead to low lower in uh lower incomes.
▶ 0:35:33And so what does that mean in real terms for someone that wants to purchase uh television, go to the supermarket and buy food or what does that mean to the uh American public that you know often, you know, it's uh living on fixed income or, you know, having a hard time making ends meet, right?
▶ 0:35:53the prices of the things that families buy will rise and family incomes will will go less far and then businesses will see the prices of their inputs go up uh and that will uh reduce business tend to reduce business investment that will reduce hiring and and reduce the strength. So, this is really reckless and and it is manifested every day as the markets continue to tumble.
▶ 0:36:16And the kind of increase that you're asking for will will lead us to get additional staffing so that we could make these kinds of impartial nonpartisan analysis on the economy. Correct. Uh that that's correct. The additional staff would help us do this kind of analysis. And you you're asking for 15 additional staffers, right? That's correct.
▶ 0:36:36And another question that I had regarding that because I know that one of the areas where you have expressed a keen interest in uh is the health arena right and health in many ways is also uh part of the economy because the cost of health care is so ex so so high that it impacts on a real pocketbook issues.
▶ 0:36:58Uh and so I want to know like uh as as we move forward and and these tariff war continues to wreck our economy uh and we continue to see an effort to potentially cut uh Medicaid and Medicare from the American people, two vital programs uh really life and death issues because if if if I have Medicaid and all of a sudden my benefits are cut, it's a life and death decision.
▶ 0:37:26uh do you foresee uh these 15 new folks doing an analysis on the impact on the cuts on Medicaid and Medicare as it pertains to the potential uh tax cuts for the very rich. Uh okay. Uh yes, the people I would look to add first and foremost would be in health.
▶ 0:37:46we, you know, we we do analysis of all the programs you mentioned, Medicaid, Medicare, pharma, uh, veterans health, and I would add experts in that because there's intense congressional interest. Um, and and I would look and these programs are very costly, right? So, it's almost impossible to save money so that you can give a tax break to the very rich without touching these these vital programs like Medicaid, Medicare, and I dare to say even social security.
▶ 0:38:13uh it's um I mean you've pointed to the fiscal the elements of the fiscal challenge the health care programs social security Medicare and then revenues on the tax side and those are the decisions Congress would have to make in choosing how to address the fiscal challenge and we would provide that analysis including of the trade-offs that you are pointing to. So, I I I would look forward to making sure that you have the additional tools and additional staffing to ensure that we made these kinds of nonpartisan analysis.
▶ 0:38:43I think that will guide us in the right direction as as the stewards of uh of our budget and and having the uh the constitutional responsibility of the power of the purse to make the right decisions and protect uh table and pocketbook issues for the American people. Thank you. Uh Mr. Swaggle and I yield back. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Espot. Now, I recognize Mr. Loa for his five minutes. Uh, good morning, Dr. Swiggle. How you doing? You're going to stay in the hot seat for a few moments. Good. Hope you don't mind. Of course.
▶ 0:39:11Um, appreciate you taking the time to come to my office yesterday, and I want to continue some of the conversation we had yesterday. Uh, now here, you're the director of the Congressional Budget Office, right? Yes, sir. And um when you ask chat GBT what the mission or focus of the Congressional Budget Office is, the AI tool states that the Congressional Budget Office is a nonpartisan agency that provides Congress with analyses and projections for budget and economic decisions.
▶ 0:39:36Its main functions are to help Congress understand the fiscal impact of their policies and to provide objective, timely data to inform economic and budgetary decisions. Is that a fair summary of your department? No, that's that's very good. Great. Um, is it fair to say that a large part of your staff's work is to research, gather information, process it information, evaluate it, and ultimately disseminate it to policy makers here in the Congress? No, that that's exactly right. That's our mission to gather, analyze, and then disseminate.
▶ 0:40:06And you have a staff about 270 people to do that. 270. Yeah. And when your staff is doing their jobs to research and provide analysis to Congress, do you use artificial intelligence? We do now in some limited ways um uh some things on the programming side, some things on the sort of technical side. Um the output side, no. Then in some sense, our reports, our analysis is our judgment.
▶ 0:40:31Um so the output side, no, the input side, we'll use it in some ways like you like you have to summarize outside information, but in limited ways. Is it safe to say that nowadays you're using the AI tool more than you did a year ago, two years ago, five years ago? Oh, absolutely. And what benefits in terms of efficiency specifically do AI tools provide the CBO?
▶ 0:40:52uh for you know for some things it's really an incredible benefit on the programming side converting from you know old code to new code it's amazing for summarizing information is very useful and you you showed a you know a perfect example you know sometimes it's not quite as good for complicated issues and so you know we're still a bit wary on but when you're using it you're seeking to use it to make work more efficient um I I'll give you one example I had a a recent meeting with someone and
▶ 0:41:22I wanted to know well what's this person's work about and I I didn't do it one of my staff put essentially you know his web page as a him his web page into chat GPT and it gave me a page of a summary of what this person did and it was it was pretty spot-on so that that's an example of of the efficiency yeah so so here's my trouble you're asking for an 8% increase pretty sizable you know nowadays a large part of the conversation we're having here especially on this side of the aisle is finding ing efficiencies, reducing
▶ 0:41:52costs, cutting spendings, uh providing new programs and procedures to help make things more efficient at a time where a department that's inherently research processbased has a new tool in AI to avail itself of at the same time that you're able to gain those efficiencies, you're also asking for 8%, not two or 3%, but eight in order to uh to build your staff up. And that's a tough thing for us to square up here.
▶ 0:42:22So I guess my question then doctor is why does the CBO need more people at a time where there's such a tool out there to make uh your job more efficient sir? No that's right. It's a obviously it's a completely fair question and um you know thank you for for raising it and you know yesterday and today um you know what I would say is these new AI tools will help us. They're a support for us. They make you know they do add efficiencies. The people we add are experts and they're the ones doing the analysis.
▶ 0:42:51And so of a of an issue that's in front of us. We need the experts who understand what's happened in the past, what the situation is now, how what the executive branch is doing affects the legislation and then can do that analysis. So in some sense, it's our analysis, our people who are the experts use these tools, but we need the people. I I can give you an example, but I I feel like I've gone on a bit long. I I appreciate that.
▶ 0:43:16you know you're in the business of developing reports and recommendations looking internally to your se 270 person staff have you done an analysis within yourself to figure out what is the cost benefit of integrating AI more into your operation because I'm still not able to uh because of our conversation yesterday and today and you're being good and honest and deliberate and I appreciate that but I'm still not able to square why we need more people when you have such a tool out there to create efficiency so I guess my question is can you show us a report
▶ 0:43:46that looking internally to your 270 person department that harnesses AI and to tell us that given AI you might need less people or you might be able to cut cost or provide more efficiencies. Can you provide us a report in due time doctor on that? Absolutely I can do that and that's a useful suggestion where it will let us do you know to save and then if I have more resources where AI won't you know I need people I need resources on top of the AI I'll do that. Thanks doctor. I yield chairman. Thank you Mr. Loda.
▶ 0:44:16Now I yield five minutes to Mr.Wigley. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Daro, thank you for your service. Good luck. Um in the past you have um testified about uh how the office of management and budget should make legally binding budget decisions that we call aortionments public. Is that correct? Yes. And can you explain briefly the importance of making data about these budget decisions public?
▶ 0:44:42Well, it's very important uh for us to be able to track that information to ensure the Congress's power of the purse is is executed as Congress intended. The aortionments provide that information. And so it's very important for GAO for our work to make sure the agencies spend all the money that Congress intended them to spend but don't spend more than what they're authorized by the Congress.
▶ 0:45:07It provides information to the public and also directly to the Congress to allow it to exercise its oversight responsibilities. It's transparency in how money is spent. Absolutely. In 2022, the FSG bill, which I helped draft as chair of the uh required OM to make a portionments public. Uh we then made it a permanent requirement in 2023.
▶ 0:45:34However, in January of this year, OMB sent this committee a letter saying that they will no longer operate that website. In the view of the GAO, is the office of management and budget in violation of the statutory manu mandate right now? Yes, Mr.
▶ 0:45:51Chair, I ask unanimous consent to submit for the record a letter from the GAO's general counsel to OM to OM's director regarding OM's action to dismantle the public aortments website. Without objection. For the record, this letter lays out the GAO's legal opinion that the OM is in violation of the law for taking down the website that made aortionment decisions available to the public.
▶ 0:46:20This requirement was enacted for the record over former President Biden and former OM directors Young's Sir, is there any reason that President Trump and OMB director shouldn't be held to the same accountability and transparency? No. No. Everybody's for transparency until they're held So, to sum up, uh, you all need this information to do your job saving the government money.
▶ 0:46:49We need this information to do our jobs to fund the government appropriately. The public needs this information to hold the federal government accountable. and OMB is intentionally breaking the law to hide this information. Thank you, sir, and I yield Thank you, Mr. Quigley. I now recognize uh Mr. Strong for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd first like to express my gratitude to the witnesses and their staff for their ongoing support of the invaluable resources they provide to Congress and our country.
▶ 0:47:19Uh Dr. uh Swaggel, as I mentioned to you earlier this week, I'm a data driven individual. As Congress prepares to move forward on President Trump's agenda, is it vital that we receive accurate cost estimates uh for any legislation? Uh yes, sir. And that that's my goal to get you accurate information. In 2021, the Biden uh rescue plan was estimated at a $ 1.9 trillion u million dollar uh economic stimulus plan.
▶ 0:47:48Do you today believe that the so-called stimulus plan only cost the American taxpayers 1.9 trillion? And what percentage of that package was a total waste? Ah, it's um is a good question. It's something that we do sometimes go back and look look at legislation. We haven't had the ability to do that. Um and that that legislation did, you know, many things. One of the things it did was contribute to the high inflation that started in 2021.
▶ 0:48:18which in a sense meant that the dollars that were spent were less valuable and so I'm not saying it's a waste because I haven't looked at that but it it made in some it hindered itself. Thank you. Given the challenges your office has faced in the past, will any of uh the request uh requested funds be directed toward refining the methodology used for cost estimates particularly when dealing with a large-scale uh legislation uh to get a true and accurate data to members of Congress?
▶ 0:48:49Uh yes sir. Um the people I would add to work on dynamic analysis and on macro would do just that. look at the relationship between legislation and the economy in both directions. Mr. Doro, I realize that there's a high demand for GAO services at any given time with a $26 trillion debt.
▶ 0:49:10Uh how does your FY26 budget aim to improve operations and turnaround time for reports to ad uh adequately meet the demand? Yes, th this would uh provide us uh with u the additional people. We we estimate we're going to lose about 126 people as a result of the continuing resolution. So this will diminish our ability to provide timely information to the Congress.
▶ 0:49:38So our request will ensure that we can provide more timely information to the Congress that we can give Congress recommendations to make the government more efficient and effective. you know, we we've been engaged with some of the Department of Government efficiency efforts and they're actually using our recommendations to help carry out their activities. So, a good investment GAO pays multiple returns to the Congress. Thank you. Pivoting over to you, Director Halpin.
▶ 0:50:06How's the GO uh adapting its pricing model for other federal customers such as the Department of Defense to ensure it remains financially sustainable? Uh our formula is actually pretty pretty simple. Uh we we charge our customers uh for the the cost of the materials and labor.
▶ 0:50:32Most of DoD's work uh is actually going out to uh private contractors out in your district. So we're in all 50 states, most of the territories. Um and we charge a small a small fee. sometimes up to 8% uh for doing that contracting work to cover our own overhead.
▶ 0:50:53Um but uh our our pricing model has been incredibly stable uh and represents a a strong value for the customers that choose uh GO say choosing us instead of DLA. Thank you. Mr. Swaggel, you just mentioned tariffs would reduce the efficiency of the US economy. Is a $26 trillion debt an efficient economy? Uh, no.
▶ 0:51:20The the large debt undermines the Is it efficient to pay another country $20 to produce Sesame Street uh to be Uh, is it efficient uh for for us to buy oil from other countries when we can produce it in America?
▶ 0:51:41Uh I mean you know it will depend on the on the particulars but the the trade deficit is it efficient for 15 million illegal aliens to come into this Um I mean that that has had a wide impact uh for state and local governments that have borne the biggest burden on the fiscal side. Is it efficient to fund illegal aliens when we have US veterans that are sleeping in the streets of America? Um Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:52:13Thank you, Mr. Strong. I now recognize Miss Mallaloy for her five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, the witnesses, for being here. Um, when you sit this far down on the table, a lot of the things that you plan on asking have already been asked by the time they get to you. Um, but Mr. Daro, um you talk about the the cost savings that you found through your work.
▶ 0:52:40Um in your testimony, you indicated that in fiscal year 24, GO's work yielded 60 67.5 billion in savings. And then you testified that you save $123 for every dollar invested in GAO. Um where do those cost-saving estimates come from? Uh typically we use third-party estimates. They may come from CBO. They may come from the Congress if the Congress reduces the AY's budget request. So typically we try to use third-party estimates.
▶ 0:53:10And only if those aren't available, we'll make our own estimate, but then we'll run it by the agency. For example, a DoD if we say that DoD took action on a recommendation. We believe it saved this much. Do you agree? And typically they agree. I believe these these estimates are intended to be very conservative and uh reliable and accurate. So you also talked about um finding fraud and saving preventing fraud and finding savings.
▶ 0:53:41How often do you find an area that's ripe like that and Congress fails to take it up and act on it? Well, I have a number of open matters for congressional consideration that Congress has not yet acted upon. I'd be happy to provide it for the record. For example, uh you know, I've recommended for years that the Social Security Administration uh take the full death master file and provided to the Treasury Department so we don't pay dead people. All right?
▶ 0:54:10And I persuaded the Congress after about 10 years, and right now it's a three-year pilot. I believe it's already saved millions of dollars, prevented fraud, prevented improper payments, that Congress should make it permanent. That's not yet done. Uh so let's just give you one example. So I, you know, Congress has acted in some cases, but in many cases there's still more that should be done. I've recommended it. I'll provide it for the record. Yeah, I would appreciate that. I'm also going to have my staff follow up with you. Be happy to.
▶ 0:54:40Okay. Yeah. Any any fan of preventing frauds fan of mine. Okay. Well, I am a fan of that. Um, Mr. um, when my colleague was reading his chat GPT, uh, description of your agency, uh, one of the things that that he talked about and you mentioned is the nonpartisan mission of CBO. Um, and I think you have a bit of a perception problem on the Hill about that nonpartisan mission.
▶ 0:55:07So I just wanted to to ask how do you in your hiring practices try to ensure that you are hiring and training in a way that uh perpetuates the nonpartisan nature of what you do. Okay. No, thank you. And it's a key aspect of the agency. I mean it's really the foundation of what we do is being nonpartisan, not taking policy positions. When we hire, we look carefully at the people we're hiring.
▶ 0:55:32of course, first on the expertise and on the skills they bring, but also to make sure that they are both nonpartisan and seen as nonpartisan. And you know, look, we we treat a 22-year-old we're hiring differently than, you know, a 45-year-old. Just, you know, we we we understand, you know, sort of the difference between those two. Um, but we look at that carefully when we hire. And after people come on board, we have processes within the agency to scrutinize our work.
▶ 0:56:00you know, essentially up and down and across the agency to make sure that we're down the center on the issues. Okay. Well, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the rest of my time. Thank you, Mr. Malloy. I now recognize Mr. Moore for his five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, appreciate it very much. Um, the question for the, uh, comroller, uh, Adaro. Just the chairman's talked about this. I just want to go back to it real quick.
▶ 0:56:29So, in in 2018, um you issued this letter here to Hatch in a legal decision that GAO's role is essentially complete once the executive submits a rule to Congress. Is that correct? Yeah. As it relates to uh the the Congressional Review Act submissions, but we have other roles that we have which include responding to requests from Congress, right?
▶ 0:56:58for You stated a legal decision that the GO's role is essentially complete once the executive submits a rule to Congress. Is that correct? That's correct as it relates to the CRA. But I'm what I'm saying is we also have other responsibilities to respond by statute to requests from committees and members of Congress for legal decisions. Anybody ask for a legal decision from GAO, we give it to them. Right.
▶ 0:57:27I mean is it as a service to the Congress? Then I'm trying to understand then why it seems that your actions in thisa case as it relates to the Clean Air Act waiver for California EVs mandate seems opposed to that decision. Well, it's not opposed to that decision. I mean, basically what it does is explain that decision.
▶ 0:57:51We were asked to clarify our previous legal decisions which you could argue is an extension of our CRA responsibilities. Uh and and so all we were asked to do is to in the context of what was submitted to explain our previous decisions. The parliamentarian is the one that decides whether or not that the the issue gets put to a vote in the Congress. That's not our role. Our role is to answer questions from the Congress and to clarify things.
▶ 0:58:19And when we're asked to clarify a previous legal position, I think it's our it's important for us to be able to do that. Uh as opposed to having other people try to interpret our previous legal Can I ask you, have you ever spoken to the Senate parliamentarian? Uh I have not, but my staff has about this issue specifically. I I I don't think we had any conversation. Let me just check.
▶ 0:58:53No, we did not talk to her her on this particular issue, but other issues. Well, if she asks for, you know, does she have to engage you or do you engage her? It can it can happen either way depending on the issues, but typically we we respond to her questions if she has questions on any of our our material. We don't have an ongoing relationship with the parliamentarian if that's what you're asking.
▶ 0:59:21And so you're probably not able to answer this now, but if there's previous interactions in between GAO and the Senate parliamentarian, maybe I'd submit a question for the record that they could answer later uh as it relates to what was the substance, context, and nature of those um conversations. I'd be curious to know. Um, and then I mean you stated this, but the purpose of the CRA, and this is in your letter, is to strengthen congressional oversight of agency rulemaking.
▶ 0:59:51That's a quote. GAO decided that because the agency had submitted the rule. Congress is, and I quote, able to fully exercise its review and oversight authorities under CRA and therefore takes no position on whether the action by the agency constituted a rule. Do you agree that presidents in this space is crystal clear does not issue legal decisions after an agency has submitted a rule to Congress? That's correct.
▶ 1:00:21This isn't a legal decision that we we did. It's an it's a clarification of a previous legal decision we did. It's not a new legal But would you say it's fair to characterize that the parliamentarian's determination is taking it as a legal decision because of the action that she is taking? I I can't speak for the parliamentarian. All I can do is say if a member of Congress comes to us and asks us to explain a previous legal decision, I'd be hardressed to say no.
▶ 1:00:51I can't do that. I mean, we're just responding to help Congress. We're not trying to, you know, influence things one way or the other. We're nonpartisan. We're asked a question. We give an answer. And it doesn't matter who it is. Well, I do have some reports outstanding that have been I mean folks that have submitted questions that are they've been out there for like over a year. Um but this one got turned around in 10 days.
▶ 1:01:20Well, it's because it was all It's amazing. Well, not really. I I you know it basically all we're doing is explaining something we already did before. Most of these other requests are asking for original work where we got to go to the agency and get their opinions and other things. In the case of of somebody explaining something of an opinion you've already given, you know, it it should be turned around quickly. You know, I I don't get very many complaints from Congress about being timely, you know.
▶ 1:01:50Yeah. So, so, uh, well, this seems to be the only one that was. That's why it's curious. It's not the only one that where we're timely. It's the only one I gotten complaints on lately. But, but you know, I I'm just saying our responsibilities to every member of the Congress is Congress is an institution. If somebody askked us a question, we're going to give them an answer. So, obviously, as we've talked about, you understand the complications around this issue as it relates to all this. Would you be willing to resend that decision or opinion?
▶ 1:02:21No. No. Would you be willing to provide something in writing that maybe provides some more clarity around it? Be happy to. If you submit a question for the record, be happy to answer. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. All right. If there are no further questions, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:02:40And um and as was mentioned today, I I really hope that uh we use our taxpayer resources to be fair and balanced and and not go down this path. And I know there will be additional questions for the record. I'll be submitting some myself. Um and this committee stands