▶ 0:10:48Committee on Foreign Affairs will come to order. I ask everybody to rise. Join me in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
▶ 0:11:21Thank you everybody for your attendance. The purpose of this hearing today is to identify structural challenges and functional deficiencies that impede the Department of State's ability to fulfill its mission and to work to find solutions to those issues. And I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. As I said, I called this hearing really to establish a simple fact. Uh the State Department has many broken parts. Uh and it's been in many ways a broken part of our government for many years. It's been too big.
▶ 0:11:50It's had no clear mission or definition for public diplomacy. Uh has very little command and control over the dollars that it sends across the globe. It's spent your tax dollars in ways that would have been better if the State Department just lit the money on fire in many cases. Right now, more than 80% of the State Department is not authorized by Congress. That includes Bureau of International Security and Non-Proliferation with a budget of 57 million and 247 employees.
▶ 0:12:18The Bureau of International Organizations with a budget of 90 million and 370 employees. The Bureau of Administration with a budget of 394 million and a staff of 700. Now, despite 80% of it not being authorized, the State Department's bureaus, offices, and programs, they continue to grow each and every year. Last year, the State Department employed more than 80,000 people across the globe.
▶ 0:12:44Between the year 2000 and the year 2024, the State Department's budget grew from roughly nine and a half billion to more than 55 billion over the course of that time. Where did that money go? Does our foreign policy feel like it's five times more effective as we've spent five times more dollars?
▶ 0:13:03Instead, we've had a State Department with plenty of duplicative programs, but again, not a clear mission and a clear outline on how to go out there and affect the missions positively on behalf of the American people and all of our interest. The largest operation of the State Department in any of our lifetimes was the withdrawal from Afghanistan, which was an abysmal failure.
▶ 0:13:26The State Department failed to plan everything from how many people would be requesting visas to how many people would be needed to process those visas and a thousand other things. The State Department is too big and it's also unaccountable because we've not conducted a comprehensive standalone reauthorization 2002. It's also prioritizing the wrong things in my opinion.
▶ 0:13:50That is why we saw American dollars going out the door to foreign companies, foreign countries, foreign NOS's, and foreign adversaries like the Taliban with less oversight than it takes the average American citizen to get a driver's license at the DMV. Don't take my word for it. Listen to what the State Department's funded with your tax dollars. And many of you heard me give lists of hundreds and hundreds of items. I'll list just a couple. $14 million in cash vouchers for migrants at our southern border. $24,000 for a national spelling bee in Bosnia.
▶ 0:14:20$1.5 million to mobilize elderly, lesbian, transgender, non-binary, and interex people to be involved in the Costa Rica political process. $20,000 for a drag show in Ecuador. $32,000 for an LGBTQ comic book in Peru. I would challenge anybody in here to refute that American tax dollars were not spent in this way. I don't see anybody refuting that. I have hundreds of more examples of these, if not thousands.
▶ 0:14:51We have proof that these things happened. We have the documents. We have the photos. We have the receipts. These things are too stupid for us to try and make up really. But this is not about scoring political points with each of those. Otherwise, I'd give the full list. These programs were funded with American tax dollars because somewhere some person down the line at the State Department thought that programs like that were actually diplomacy. This spending was not lifesaving.
▶ 0:15:20It didn't make American citizens visiting those countries safer or American businesses operating there more prosperous or a better partner. It didn't bring any of the countries in which the money was spent closer to America. In fact, many of these countries actively opposed what the State Department was actually doing. Yet, State Department officials thought this was public diplomacy and exactly what America should be doing. Again, I personally disagree with that definition of public diplomacy.
▶ 0:15:47But we should have this debate and we should figure out what American D tax dollars should and should not be used for abroad. And that's what the debate about a State Department reauthorization is all about. That's what this hearing and a reauthorization process will accomplish.
▶ 0:16:04We need to restore command and control over the State Department so that you don't have USAD betraying its core mission by funding an $850,000 transgender job fair in Bangladesh or a $15 million in condoms to the Taliban that did nothing to bolster America's national security.
▶ 0:16:23Even worse, the lack of accountability allowed US A to create a bloated industry where DC contractors profited off sky-high overhead costs while people most in need received very little compared to what those contractors received. Even USAD admitted that just 12% of its grants went directly to local organizations. This lack of accountability at USAD is exactly why the agency needed to be brought back under the control of the State Department.
▶ 0:16:51And this is an idea that was embraced by Bill Clinton, President Bill Clinton and President Joe Biden and its move that we should make permanent in our reauthorization bill. The State Department has been broken. That has been true. But it's also our responsibility as the Foreign Affairs Committee to fix those issues permanently. Until now, the State Department has never shrunk. It's never downsized its budget or eliminated an office or an envoy.
▶ 0:17:18President Trump, Secretary Rubio, and Doge are already making changes, and they're looking at us to be a partner in that process, and we look forward to seeing Secretary Rubio to speak to us about that later in the month, next month. The only way that we do this as authorizers in the US House of Representatives is by conducting that first full comprehensive State Department reauthorization again since 2002. I thank you all for your participation in this hearing.
▶ 0:17:47I thank our witnesses uh for their testimonies when they give them. I thank the ranking member and all of your members for their attendance today and the ranking member, ranking member Meeks uh representative from New York is now recognized for your opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Mass. Chairman Mass and uh I want to say thank you to all of our witnesses uh for joining us here today.
▶ 0:18:08As member of this committee, it is our duty to reauthorize the State Department regularly, just as Congress does with respect to the Department of Defense. As chairman of the 117th Congress, I made it a priority to pass the first State Department reauthorization in 18 years. Doing so in a bipartisan way with then ranking member McCau.
▶ 0:18:34Uh that's and that's because both Democrats and Republicans believe that it was in the best interest of the American people and the US national security for Congress to ensure our diplomatic and development professionals have all the tools that they need to succeed. And let me just say I praise all of those professionals that work for the State Department, that work for USAD.
▶ 0:19:02They are individuals who have focused and dedicated their lives to the United States of America. They are of the top and most respected individuals. Uh, as we salute our military, we need to salute those that work for the State Department and USAD for their mission and the sacrifices that they make every day to their families and others for the benefit of those in the citizens of the United
▶ 0:19:32States of America. So, and I believe that's that both Democrats and Republicans believe it was in the best interest of the American people and national security for Congress to ensure our diplomatic and development professionals have all of the tools that they need to succeed. So, while I appreciate that this hearing was called and agree with the need for Congress to regularly authorize the State Department, Mr.
▶ 0:20:01Chairman, I'm afraid this committee's actions, this Congress, have run counter to that goal. After all, how can we engage in a serious bipartisan conversation about strengthening the State Department and other agencies when Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and Secretary Rubio have evated the very department and instruments of national security we're supposed to support while not being called even once for a hearing before this committee.
▶ 0:20:30And as while I appreciate the witnesses that we have here and I know that we have proposed um Secretary uh Rubio coming in on the 21st, we've not had any hearing with anyone from the agencies and we appreciate uh the the the the words that the chairman comes up with about all of his statistics. But the ones that should be before us should be people from the administration and we have not had one.
▶ 0:20:56So, you can't remodel a home after you burn it to the ground. And Congress's legislative role should not be to simply rubber stamp the awesomeness at work. This is a profound moment.
▶ 0:21:09I believe a moment of shame for the Republican party as its members sit silently while Secretary Rubio allows Elon Musk and his army of teenagers who have no foreign policy or even government experience or expertise to dismantle the very agencies that they have supported in the past.
▶ 0:21:28The United States Agency for International Development, the US Agency for Global Media, the Millennium Challenge Corporation, just to name a few, have all been met with a hatchet job for no reason. Meanwhile, Secretary Rubio and many of my Republican colleagues who've in the past understood their value, if you talk to them in the past, they did, failed to speak up or worse, contort themselves to justify the administration's actions.
▶ 0:21:56There is no greater demonstration of this incredible cowardice in my opinion than that of Secretary Rubio who knows this is wrong. Listen to his words when he was in the Senate and listen to it now. You would not think it's the same individual. He knows it's wrong, but would rather sit at top a kingdom of ash than defend the work he once praised.
▶ 0:22:18I had hoped that Secretary Rubio would at least try to protect the Department of USA and their workforces who've dedicated their lives to serving the American people. Instead, he stood by while Musk and Morocco indulge illegally gutted USAD, a statutory agency, and condemned millions of people around the world to disease, starvation, and death by slashing foreign assistance, forfeiting US global leadership in the process.
▶ 0:22:47So, I see I'm out of time and almost out of time, but I will just end this with this paragraph. The wanting destruction didn't end with USID or Pete Morocco's exit. Most recently, Secretary Rubio gave this committee just 25 minutes before notice noticing before announcing a sweeping dismantling of our soft power tools in the name of state reauthorization. And with that, I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you, Ranking Member Meeks.
▶ 0:23:16Other members of the committee are reminding that opening statements may be submitted for the record. We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic. The Honorable James F. Jeffrey, retired career foreign service officer at the US Department of State. The Honorable David Hail, former under secretary for political affairs at the US Department of State, and the Honorable Usra Zia, President and CEO of Human Rights First.
▶ 0:23:42This committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and we're grateful to have you all speak with us today. Your full statements will be made a part of the record and I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for members questions. And I now recognize Ambassador Jeffrey for his opening Okay. Mr. Chairman, Mr.
▶ 0:24:11Ranking member, I appreciate deeply the opportunity to address this committee on such an important issue. To save state, we must prioritize national security objectives, consolidate state operations, and empower regional bureaus. I have submitted a statement for the record, which I will summarize now. Sir, could you maybe pull that microphone a little bit closer for everybody? How's that, sir? Much better. Thank you. Okay.
▶ 0:24:35But first, let me express my admiration for my former State Department colleagues who, as Representative Meeks noted, serve our country with the same dedication I saw with my soldiers 50 years ago. Unfortunately, their success is hampered by structural problems in the State Department, which has drifted over multiple administrations from its core mission, the relentless, rigorous pursuit of national interests. For example, Congress tked state to develop strategic plans to be consistent with overall administration policy.
▶ 0:25:06Here is framework chart for state's latest plan from 2022. By then, the Biden and earlier Trump administrations had made clear that great power competition was our most important objective.
▶ 0:25:21Yet the State has lead allies and partners to address shared challenges and competitors, prevent, deter, and resolve conflicts as only one of 19 objectives under five goals listed as the fourth of five under the goal of global challenges.
▶ 0:25:44Obviously, Secretary Blinken and other secretaries devote almost all of their time on to national security, but formal plans have consequences, and this mishmash of objectives dulls states focus. Another example, the 2024 report by the Commission on the National Defense Strategy noted that compared to DoD and the intelligence community, the Department lacks a similar level of planning, joint operations, and shared undertaking of national security. end quote.
▶ 0:26:14To rectify this, state must more closely align its strategic plan to the current national security strategy, be established as a national security agency, and develop formal planning, institutions, doctrine, and training. The next problem is dispersion of diplomatic activities to other agencies. I applaud the return of USAD uh to its roots in the Department of State before the 1960s.
▶ 0:26:38I would add the foreign commercial service and the military equipment uh programs under the NDAA section 1209 that DoD now has. In contrast, I would transfer the visa section, the visa uh mission to the Department of Homeland Security. States geographic bureaus are the main operational arms of the secretary. These bureaus, however, need major modifications to so function.
▶ 0:27:04Secretaries Christopher Through Blinken when confronted with a crisis be it North Korea, Bosnia, Venezuela, Iraq, Syria, Iran and more assigned responsibility not to the geographic bureau and its Senate confirmed assistant secretary but to a senior non-confirmed special envoy reporting directly to the secretary.
▶ 0:27:25I have been such an envoy three times and I can attest this is a bad situation and but it keeps being repeated because it's the least bad approach given the restraints with the regional bureaus. First, they must balance balance management of large organizations with their diplomacy mission and that mission is spread between and blurred traditional state-to-state diplomacy and expectations for transformational nation building. One example is a human rights report required by Congress.
▶ 0:27:55This is for Bulgaria. It's 53 pages long. I did the first one in 1980. It was about five pages. Second, the bureaus have eight layers between the desk officer for a given country and the secretary. When I was in the National Security Council, we had only two layers between such desk offices in the top. Third, bureau's country responsibilities should be aligned with DoD's combatant commands.
▶ 0:28:21Fourth, even after the state reorganization just announced, the geographic bureaus are overwhelmed by 10 global or special activities bureaus and five offices overseen by three under secretaries and a new assistance. That element of the state department needs further downsizing and structural changes to curtail its interference with geographic bureau's diplomatic missions and their communications to department leaders.
▶ 0:28:45Personnel is policy and much of the blur and baggage within state flows from confusion about the roles of foreign service officers as manager or global change officer or diplomat. Finally, whatever one administration changes by executive order, the next can reverse and thus congressional action for reform is imperative. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Ambassador Jeffrey. I now recognize Ambassador Hill for his opening statement. Thank you very much. Um Mr. Mr.
▶ 0:29:13Chairman, thank you uh ranking member Meeks and the rest of the committee for the opportunity to be with you. I've retired after four decades uh as a foreign service officer at the State Department. Um and uh so I really do welcome the opportunity to share my experiences and do what we can to improve the situation. I think uh Mr. Chairman, you have aptly described.
▶ 0:29:34I strongly support the idea of restoring the proper order of relationships between Congress and the State Department, the administration in terms of the authorization process and the bill. And I also strongly support the idea of of uh revising and reforming the organizational and structural issues at the State Department. I would underscore though that um these kinds of reforms can only be as good uh as the leaders and staff who are assigned to to undertake them at the State Department.
▶ 0:30:04So, I would urge you after you're done with the business before the committee uh of the authorization bill uh to not get distracted uh and to be persistent in making sure that state follows up and that they have the leadership and the resources and the mindset and the training that are needed in order to do whatever the authorization bill and the reorganization of the of the department demands of them.
▶ 0:30:28And that includes taking a very deep look at the way in which we hire, train, promote, and separate our staff and making sure that the services uh the civil service and the foreign service have the skills to meet the emerging and future needs that are identified in those reorganization charts.
▶ 0:30:46And I look at the latest I've don't know if it's an accurate one, but the the reorganization chart that was leaked recently or released recently uh from the State Department and it's got uh offices there that I I warmly welcome in terms of uh emerging uh problems, science and technology, uh economics.
▶ 0:31:04uh but I I would ask you to turn to the foreign service institute and make sure that we're actually training people that can do those jobs because in my experience uh we are falling short in that area. I would also look forward of course to discussing based on my own experience how we can do a better job and all of the topics that you raise and all of it in my mind goes means really going back to basics.
▶ 0:31:28what is the foreign service all about and what is the state department meant to do and by having a stronger connection between Congress and the State Department we can make sure that we are following the direction of the American people which is what service is all about. So I look forward to your questions and the opportunity to discuss the these topics further. Thank you Ambassador Hail. I now recognize Miss Zia for her opening statement. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Meeks for the invitation to testify today.
▶ 0:31:57and I too am a retired former uh foreign service officer as well as the current president and CEO of Human Rights First. Congressional oversight and guidance are vital to the work of the State Department as it navigates complex and overlapping crises around the world. State authorization can and should rebuild bipartisan consensus around the imperative for cost-effective diplomacy and foreign assistance that sustains US human rights and humanitarian leadership and enhances American security, prosperity, and well-being.
▶ 0:32:27In that bipartisan spirit, I'd like to underscore three key points. First, investing in US human rights and humanitarian leadership makes Americans safer and more secure from autocratic overreach and transnational threats. Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine upended global food and energy security and threatened neighbors, including treaty allies.
▶ 0:32:49But Putin was thwarted thanks to the courage of the Ukrainian people and transatlantic solidarity, including vital US humanitarian democracy and accountability support. Similarly, when the US pushes back on transnational repression and gross violations of human rights like extrajudicial killings, torture, religious persecution, and arbitrary detention, it fosters safety for Americans at home and abroad.
▶ 0:33:15When US supported peace process include women and civil society, it increases the chances that resulting accords break cycles of conflict, keeping our troops out of harm's way. When the US enforces human rights standards in our foreign security assistance, it creates more reliable partners and upholds US law. Second, US human rights and humanitarian leadership makes our nation more prosperous.
▶ 0:33:38That's why state long partnered with the Department of Labor and others to target forced labor, purge it from US supply chains, and raise labor standards abroad. Recent slashing of programs supporting these activities hurts American workers and companies. Corruption is also a major barrier for US companies investing and doing business overseas. This makes all the more concerning the current administration's suspended enforcement of core anti-US corruption law.
▶ 0:34:06US humanitarian leadership saves lives and advances US security and prosperity by reducing onward migration to the United States and upholding legal pathways that enrich US society. State Department advocacy for shared responsibility on migration in our hemisphere helped nearly two million Venezuelan refugees find protection in Colombia and expanded asylum access in countries like Costa Rica and Mexico.
▶ 0:34:32US-based refugee resettlement now frozen and decimated at home helps ensure other nations continue to host the vast majority of the world's refugees, but has also delivered billions of dollars in net gains to the US economy. Third, and finally, proposals to slash state personnel bureaus and offices and integrate virtually all functions into regional bureaus will hobble US human rights and humanitarian leadership.
▶ 0:34:58With due respect to my former colleagues, over my three decades at state, I often saw regional bureaus shy away from difficult conversations or actions on human rights, even with US adversaries. That's why Congress created an assistant secretary for human rights and humanitarian affairs and the DRL bureau, now being stripped of its policy role, programs, and much of its personnel after decades of bipartisan support, holding the world's worst regimes to account, rallying democratic partners,
▶ 0:35:28and providing life-saving support to thousands of human rights defenders worldwide. Meanwhile, elimination of the conflict stabilization bureau and offices of global criminal justice and global women's issues will shutter negotiation support that helped push ceasefire agreements over the finish line and accountability efforts for the world's worst human rights violators and curtail US leadership combating gender-based violence globally.
▶ 0:35:54These cuts also erase department leads on bipartisan legislation to modernize US foreign policy such as the Global Fragility Act and the Women Peace and Security Act. Vague consolidation plans combined with an unexplained 15% cut in domestic state personnel and dissolution of USAD also bode poorly for effectiveness.
▶ 0:36:15Consolidation of the Office of Trafficking and Persons into the Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration ignores JTIP's statutory mandate and leadership implementing the Weaguer Force Labor Prevention Act. Absorption of complex USA disaster and other operations into an attenuated PRM bureau is a recipe for failure. Oversight should ensure consolidation is not a cover for collapsing US humanitarian and development leadership as we know it.
▶ 0:36:42I would urge you to raise the concerns I've shared today with the current administration before its plan becomes a feta comple. And I also encourage you to sh seek the views of subject matter experts and international civil society leaders. They will remember if the United States was on their side. I thank each of you for your opening statements. I'm now going to move to questioning. I'm going to begin with Chairman ameritus McCll. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me commend you for uh this noble effort.
▶ 0:37:10Uh there's a reason why it hasn't happened since 2002. Um as u ranking member Meeks mentioned, we work together on uh state authorizations, but not a full scale. Uh often times the Senate is the problem uh even if we can get it through the House. But I do think it's important because you know when the diplomats fail, we get a war. That's what this committee is all about.
▶ 0:37:40This committee has the the authority, the obligation to deal with with issues of war and peace. Uh I've often thought, why cannot this committee pass an authorization like the National Defense Authorization Bill that the Armed Services Committee passes. instead about 25% of the NDAA comes out of this committee.
▶ 0:38:08So we use that vehicle to pass our authorizations. But if we fail to authorize, then we do abdicate our article one responsibilities and we also don't have the proper capabilities to do the oversight that's necessary.
▶ 0:38:28If we authorize something within state, whoever's in the executive, it makes it more difficult for the executive to act against the article one branch of Congress, no matter whether that's a Democrat or Republican administration. And it is it is the Congress acting under its constitutional responsibilities. So again, I applaud you for for this.
▶ 0:38:57I think this is going to be a healthy discussion. Um I guess my question and lastly I I have to say just like the NDAA it will be impossible for us to pass a state authorization both house and senate if it's not bipartisan.
▶ 0:39:17And that's true with most legislation I've in my 20 years is you can have messaging bills, but if you really want to get things done, especially on an authorization like this, I think the NDAA is a good model to examine where House and Senate bipartisan work together to get a good piece of legislation done. But Mr.
▶ 0:39:41chairman, we don't have to rely on the NDAA to do all of our authorizations of state and that's what has happened since 2002 and it is a difficult process and I want to ask all three of you in the time. What are the long-term risks to our US global leadership if Congress continues to operate without a regular reauthorization of the State Department?
▶ 0:40:13I'll start. Uh, without your input into a tightly organized Department of State, it will not reach its potential to coordinate, which is its core purpose, military power, economic power, values, and our partners and friends around the world into a coherent effort
▶ 0:40:43to advance the uh safety and the prosperity of the American people which is the core goal. Uh the military puts great effort into this in a way that having been in both institutions as a career officer I don't see to the same degree in the state department anything you folks here can do to help that would be much appreciated. If I give a good example Mr.
▶ 0:41:09chairman is um under the uh first Trump administration, Mike Pompeo set up an office to deal with emergency contingencies in response to what he foresaw happening in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the the uh Biden administration eliminated that office. So when Afghanistan fell in a way, that office was not there to respond.
▶ 0:41:38And you know why? Because it wasn't authorized by Congress. Any more thoughts? No, I think that's a that's an excellent example. Um I would uh in addition to what uh what you've said and what uh Jim has said um I would say that you know one of the problems also is that the state department tends to go on autopilot when it hasn't gotten the direction that it needs and that's a natural bureaucratic instinct but it needs to be fought all the time.
▶ 0:42:06Um and I think the authoriz an annual authorization process can help make sure that the state department is actually changing as events change and as requirements change. I think the more fundamental thing in my mind is that um the longer the State Department goes without an authorization bill, the more detached it is from the will of the American people. And so we need to make sure uh that Congress is playing its role to wake us up and and hold us accountable.
▶ 0:42:33Uh I'm no longer when I say us, it's no longer me, but I mean the organization I was part of for my entire adult life. um and responsive and that we have an opportunity also to tell our story as to why we're why we want to do things a certain way and have that debate with with the authorizers and appropriators. My time is expired with the excellent point about the will of the American otherwise it's acting in an autocratic way without the will of the American people. I yield back. Thank you. Now recognize ranking member Meeks.
▶ 0:43:04Thank you. And I actually don't disagree with almost anything that Mr. call has said. You know, in fact, that's a big concern of mine because what we've seen before us is not reform.
▶ 0:43:19It's abandoning decades of bipartisan support for centering human rights and democracy in our foreign policy without consultation, without engagement, and without any regard for Congress's constitutional role as a co-equal branch of government. To this day, Secretary Rubio refuses to follow the law and consult with Congress, and we have no reason to believe that will change.
▶ 0:43:45In the weeks ahead, we fully expect him to endorse the next chapter of Project 2025, which will closing hundreds of critical officers and potentially dozens of overseas posts, gutting the department's workforce, and slashing the budget. All of which will leave America weaker and more isolated. In fact, China and Russia will continue to celebrate as they've done so almost every day since January 20th. And you know what Mr.
▶ 0:44:13McCau said, I I I have a long track record working with any administration that wants to strengthen our national security and works in good faith towards that end. But obviously, this is not business as usual. Donald Trump has taken a wrecking ball to our foreign policy, treated our allies as adversaries and our adversaries as allies, threatening to invade some of those allies, and launched a trade war that is hurting our economy and our constituents.
▶ 0:44:43So, I would love more than anything to have a good faith effort to reauthorize the State Department, and I would welcome discussions to that end. But, you know what? The State Department officials came to brief uh staff earlier this week only after their but it was after their reorganization had been set into motion uh and um programs were cut and after the firing notices were started going out.
▶ 0:45:13That's not consultation. That's to me insulting. And while I want to thank the chairman and my majority colleagues for arranging that belated briefing, Secretary Rubio's messengers could not even answer basic questions like what offices should be closed or how they arrived at a 15% domestic staffing reduction. So I think that there should be more consultations. Let me just ask you these questions. You can answer yes or no.
▶ 0:45:43Do you believe Congress must be meaningfully consulted on major state reorganization or changes to USAD, including ending the vast majority of congressionally appropriated foreign assistance? Yes or no? Yes. Yes, sir. Yes. And another yes or no. Do you believe that sweeping changes like this, especially on items mandated in law, should be done, should it be done by an executive order, or should you have to come to Congress?
▶ 0:46:13There are legal issues here, Congressman, that I uh am not competent to get into. But again, I'll go with my first answer. Uh when appropriate and when uh it's under law, Congress must be Yes.
▶ 0:46:29If you want a sustainable uh you know decision, I think it requires legislation and consultation with I believe it absolutely requires consultation with Congress and uh a clear-cut connection between the ends and the means which I am not seeing in this plan.
▶ 0:46:48And also on top of all that, Secretary Rubio's cuts already underway and the White House is reportedly readying a recision of more than $9 billion from the state and foreign budget. Would the practical impact of these cuts on our ability to to advance US interests globally be significant or would they be detrimental? I'd have to see what the specifics are.
▶ 0:47:18uh I agree with Jim's answer. I I' I'd want to see the details. Uh I do believe that an organization the size of the State Department could definitely use uh uh some serious reform. Uh I come out differently on this based on what I've seen so far in uh press reporting. A 50% cut in state's operational budget combined with the 80% plus cut in foreign assistance from USAD.
▶ 0:47:42I think this has devastating consequences with respect to our own security and prosperity and our ability to project leadership. I would just note that the PRC is already filling that gap and we are seeing China increase its diplomatic spending. I've seen by over 8% for 2025, over 6% last year.
▶ 0:48:04And so again, to what end are we retreating from the field when our greatest geopolitical challenger is doubling down? Okay.
▶ 0:48:19And I want if I just indulge the chairman just to have an answer to with the two of you about uh that what was just mentioned about our ability to compete with China significant or Um I'll draw on a article in the economist from March and the Economist as I think you all know is a very internationalist globalist uh engagementoriented platform. uh the death of foreign aid.
▶ 0:48:49It says that threequarters of all foreign aid is in development, economic, political assistance. And it basically says there is very little evidence that this produces any results and goes on to say the idea that aid buys soft power is unconvincing too.
▶ 0:49:06Now anything in print can be challenged but I would have to say my own experience on the ground beyond humanitarian assistance which is critical beyond security assistance equally critical all of the things we're doing to try to change societies uh whether to compete with the Chinese or push back on the Russians. I haven't seen a whole lot of success and I've been responsible for some of the largest ones. Congressman, thank you.
▶ 0:49:32I'll just draw one chapter of my experience from Pakistan as ambassador there. Uh I inherited you know the Kerry Luger Burman uh aid pipeline which uh frankly in hindsight I think was an experiment that proved to not have really succeeded in achieving foreign policy goals. There are some good things that were done with it but for the most part the Pakistanis didn't want the assistance.
▶ 0:49:54they blocked a lot of it and I don't think that if you had a objective measurement that it really changed uh the either the growth of violent extremism in that part of the world or the cooperation of the Pakistani authorities through US policy in contrast the Chinese were spending 50 to60 billion uh in belt and road initiative program programs in Pakistan at the same time they got a lot of credit for it but over time it turned out as people discovered these were not grants like ours they were loans and
▶ 0:50:25the business plans were not didn't make any sense. Uh there's a lot of favoritism and corruption in it. Um and now they have a debt overhang that they can't deal with. So the Chinese approach also soured. So I'm not sure that I want to while not ignoring the fact that resources matter that the amount of money we're spending versus what the Chinese are spending in any given country may be a starting point for a conversation.
▶ 0:50:48I don't know that it necessarily reflects an outcome um of the way to measure exactly the best way the United States can influence behavior because aid does not change policies. It can enable a partner who already is in agreement with us to do the things we want, but dangling aid isn't going to make somebody do things that they don't otherwise feels in their national interest. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate those answers. Uh we now recog Oh, sorry. Okay.
▶ 0:51:16Now recognize uh Representative Wilson for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and indeed thank each of you for being here today. And Ambassador Jeffrey, we are grateful for your successful service as special representative for Syria with the first Trump administration where you led efforts to enforce the Caesar Act to hold terrorist sponsor and butcher Assad, war criminal Putin, and Iran accountable.
▶ 0:51:39Ambassador, you were ultimately successful of the uh providing uh the assistance with Turkey and Saudi Arabia. In December, butcher Assad abdicated and fled to Moscow. In November, a badge of honor I received is I was condemned by the Assad regime as an enemy of the state, which I uh recognize I was, and now he's gone.
▶ 0:52:05Uh last week I'm appreciate that Congressman Corey Mills and Mike and Marlon Stzman visited Damascus as Syria reach achieves independence there. There is such opportunity for the people of Syria to restore freedom. The UK last week lifted sanctions. With that in mind, what do you think American policy should be to assist the people of Syria? Uh, I gather that you're looking at me, Congressman. Yes.
▶ 0:52:36Uh, first of all, it was the Syrian people who overthrew Assad. What we had policy done by several administrations with the full support of Congress, working together with partners and allies that enabled the Syrian people to take that step. So, I think it's a good example of what we're all trying to uh strive for today.
▶ 0:53:02I think we need to uh as this administration is doing and as the Biden administration in its last days did uh reach out slowly and carefully to the new government uh and take steps as the new government responds to our and other partners' legitimate security concerns. I think it's on a good path, Congressman, but uh time will tell. Well, again, your it was your efforts that I think helped make this successful. So, thank you so much.
▶ 0:53:31And indeed, Secretary Ambassador Hail, allies purchasing American defense products are experiencing undue delays in delivery for products that they've already paid for. For example, Taiwan had bought so much uh capability to defend themselves, but for years that's been held up and then going through the foreign military sales process. In some cases, the delays have been so significant that allies and partners are forced to look elsewhere.
▶ 0:53:57Thankfully, uh, Congressman and Chairman Mike McCall and now Chairman Brian Mast are champions for reform assisted by ranking member Greg Meeks and and Secretary, what changes do you believe should be made to streamline the process? Uh, I wouldn't assert that I have any great authority or you know, ideas on that. I I support the idea of streamlining it. Certainly, I I share your concern about the delays that we've witnessed over time.
▶ 0:54:26I I held had to deal with this myself in Lebanon when I was ambassador there. They were dealing with a a tremendous ISIS threat and we wanted to uh rapidly provide assistance to the Lebanese authorities and we were able to do that. It took a lot of hard work by an embassy frankly and our defense attache, myself and the the teams back here. So, it can be done.
▶ 0:54:46But if you have ways in which you think we we are able to streamline this while making sure that of course the money is not diverted into areas that are inappropriate or corrupt, by all means we should do that once we know we have a policy. It shouldn't be hard figure out what we're going to do after that. Well, hey, I want to thank you. You indicated ambassadorships in uh Islamabad and Beirut. My goodness, you really are selected for interesting places.
▶ 0:55:14But on a um on a positive note, there has been change in Lebanon too. And so what can we do to uh to work together uh hopefully in the spirit of Syria u with Lebanon? Well, I was also ambassador in Jordan, so that was that was the garden spot for me. But um yeah, on Lebanon, we have an opportunity that is rare in life. There is change underway. Uh no one would have dreamt a year and a half ago that we would be able to to deal with what we're dealing with here.
▶ 0:55:42The worst thing we could do is abandon the Lebanese to themselves. They still need help. The central government is very weak. The moderates there, their their families and and people have been assassinated by Hezbollah over time. It's hard for them. So, we need to keep the pressure on Iran. That's our role. Our role is not to tinker with the Lebanese reforms and steps. We should encourage that and help nurture it.
▶ 0:56:03But what the America can do is make sure that whatever else we're doing with Iran, we continue to hold them accountable for the support of his Balah and make sure that they know that we demand the disarmament of his and indeed the Trump administration that's maximum pressure uh on the head of the snake uh the octopus uh and Tehran should be on notice that for the people of Iran, we're we're for them. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Wilson. We now recognize Representative Jacobs. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:56:32Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here. I'm actually really glad we're convening this hearing today. Um, I'll be honest, when I worked at the State Department, I was incredibly frustrated uh with the longtime career diplomats who were very resistant to change, and I think that that mentality has contributed to the department's ineffectiveness over the years. I think reform is absolutely needed in the State Department.
▶ 0:56:55In fact, I passed bipartisan legislation to help address risk aversion and the bunker mentality at our embassies, um, and other reforms to how we do security assistance, how we do foreign assistance. So, that's why I am so disappointed that this reorganization effort has become a partisan exercise marred by chaos and without regard to the law.
▶ 0:57:15Between the leaked proposal we've seen to slash the department's budget in half, the commitments to cut staff by 15% despite the department now having to take on what is left of USA ID programming, and reports that the department will significantly downsid downsize its diplomatic presence abroad. Taken together, I I actually don't think these reforms will lead to a more effective State Department, which is what we really want.
▶ 0:57:40the the reality is we do need to think more strategically about what our national security priorities and interests are in a multipolar world. Um but chairman mast I just fundamentally disagree with you that human rights and our values aren't part of that because I think our power is derived from our ability to build international coalitions and to do that we need to address our values and build our coalitions around that.
▶ 0:58:06So first I want to focus on an area of ongoing reform that I think we can learn from. Uh chairman emeritus McCll and I u my good friend introduced a reauthorization for the global fragility act. This focuses on important reforms for how we get to align policy and programs more robust monitoring and evaluation. Uh but Secretary Rubio's reorganization proposal would shut down the conflict and stabilization operations bureau which I actually worked at which is leading the implementation.
▶ 0:58:35And look, we can have a separate debate on the best way to house the kind of conflict expertise in the department. We uh led a GAO review of Cso under the Biden administration, but uh Secretary Za, as under secretary of Jay, you oversaw the work of cso and the global fragility act. Can you discuss the importance of maintaining the global fragility act team led by an assistant secretary as required by law to actually implement GFA and meet its statutory obligations?
▶ 0:59:03Thank you, Representative Jacobs, and thanks to you and Representative McCall for your bipartisan leadership in the Global Fragility Act. This is exactly the kind of state modernization that I think we should rally bipartisan support for. And I saw this firsthand in my role as under secretary visiting um GFA uh partner countries, Mosamb beek, uh Kivvoir, as well as Haiti.
▶ 0:59:26And what I saw on the ground was a shift away from um open-ended assistance commitments, you know, where implementation is defined as spending money and really focusing on measuring results, evidence-based approaches, and course corrections. And it is very sad to me that this effort is now being potentially extinguished just two years in when it's starting to bear fruit.
▶ 0:59:55It's about integrating state department efforts with our with our colleagues at DoD, with USAID, but also with international partners who have followed our lead, particularly in coastal West Africa where we have four embassies working together in an integrated way I have never seen. But you've got the international financial institutions, the EU, and the Brits coming in behind to focus on the same areas.
▶ 1:00:20And I do want to make a point about human rights and security and hard security. Uh Representative Wilson mentioned his visit to Syria. I was a human rights s uh officer in Syria under Hafasel Assad. At this point, our support for pluralism for inclusion of women in Syria's transitional government and process. That is absolutely a guarantor of security. And Syria is a diverse country of many faiths.
▶ 1:00:49We cannot allow it to fall into a majoritarian system that oppresses so many of Syria's people after the immense suffering they've had. That's also why accountability is so important so we can finally um achieve accountability for the Assad regime's horrific crimes. Thank you. Um I I really appreciate that.
▶ 1:01:13And I think one of the the really innovative reforms in the global fragility act is being able to assess the effectiveness of US policy in a single country across all of our activities done by all different agencies. And I know that sounds simple, but actually GFA is the only capability we've ever had to assess whether or not our policy whole of government in a country is actually achieving its goals. So I do hope that Secretary Rubio will maintain that function. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Representative Jacobs.
▶ 1:01:41We now recognize Representative Smith from New Jersey. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for calling this important hearing and welcome to our very distinguished panel. Uh I am the prime author of the Bipartisan Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000. And among some of his provisions, there are dozens of of uh neutrally reinforcing provisions. We established a tier system uh tier one, tier two, tier three.
▶ 1:02:04Tier three for the most egregious violators not doing anything or complicit in human trafficking within their country in the areas of prevention, prosecution, and protection. Uh I've been very concerned and I've held dozens of hearings over the years with both administrations, all administrations. Uh and we keep getting from the tip office ambassador at large and from people in the tip office how there's almost like a uh hand-to-hand combat when certain nations are put on tier three.
▶ 1:02:33Uh and many of our bureau chiefs, especially the assistant secretaries for the region argue, don't do it. There are other equities that we need to be concerned about. And my argument has always been get it right. uh whe what you do on the sanctions piece which is prescribed in the law as well uh prescribed I should say uh is purely up to the administration but getting it right on the facts uh should be non-negotiable and yet the most egregious example there was during the Obama administration when Reuters broke the story that there were more than a dozen
▶ 1:03:03nations that got artificially inflated grades because of other issues. So I had two hearings on that uh and and you know said don't do that you sell out the victims. Now I am concerned that we we we get the integrity right on the process and ditto for the international religious freedom act uh so that you know call it the way it is what we do on the sanctions piece u you know is something that the secretary of state and the president can negotiate and I'm wondering what your thoughts are now as we're going through this
▶ 1:03:34this whole revamping um and secretary Rubio I do believe is very strongly committed to both religious freedom and to and to trafficking issues issues. How do we ensure the integrity of the process getting it right? Uh those bureaus need to be as independent as possible in my opinion. Uh the tip office is made up of wonderful people who work overtime and each embassy as you know Mr. Ambassador you know tender all of the data back as to what's going on in that individual country.
▶ 1:04:02How do we ensure that those and there are other offices as well but religious freedom and trafficking in persons. How do we ensure the integrity of of that process? Yes, please. Thanks so much, Representative Smith. I I would say from from my own experience, I have seen how the TVPA uh affects change on the ground and the tier ranking system.
▶ 1:04:24And I would say in my role as under secretary, I enjoyed very close collaboration with my counterpart, the under secretary for political affairs and colleagues from regional bureaus in really focusing on the countries that we were seeing a degradation in conditions but also recognizing opportunities for progress.
▶ 1:04:42I want to highlight too together the office to combat trafficking in persons working with civil society and the private sector worked tirelessly to successfully eradicate child and forced labor from the cotton industry in Usuzbekistan. That might sound like an issue far away in a land that doesn't matter to Americans. It does matter to the US cotton industry who cannot compete against forced labor produced products.
▶ 1:05:12This is why I am so concerned about subsuming this office which really enjoys um unrivaled global leadership on this mission to end human slavery into the Bureau of Population Refugees and Migration. The legal definition of human trafficking does not require movement across international borders.
▶ 1:05:34So I am quite worried that that is a downgrade that will really undercut efforts to end exploitation of some of the most vulnerable people at a moment where we're really making progress. I've also seen in the case of allies like the Republic of Korea a downgrade to tier 2 really produced uh a tremendous amount of effort and engagement where we saw improvements where they were able to move back up to tier one.
▶ 1:06:03So the ranking system I think has had a very positive effect although many didn't like it when it came out in affecting change. Uh if I may briefly uh add to this uh I was ambassador to Albania and boy this was one of my top priorities. Uh I haven't been too kind to soft power in my statement and some of my comments here today.
▶ 1:06:25But this is an example that I think for the committee to look at where soft power can work because first of all it reflects values that across the board Americans believe in because this is terrible stuff. Secondly, it is something that is concrete that you can get governments to stop without changing their whole outlook to the universe, their philosophy, their religious background and everything else. Much of what we do is broad. you've got to look like Denmark or you've got to look like um you know Washington DC.
▶ 1:06:56Uh this is very specific. We monitor it closely and you bet I was always trying to get Albania raised one level higher and you can bet I was beaten down because we had concrete standards to go by. That's what the secretary should continue to enforce because it represents the will of not only the Congress but the American Thank you, Representative Smith. Representative Castro. Uh, thanks, Chairman.
▶ 1:07:24I have served on this committee for well, since I got into Congress in January of 2013 and have always supported a comprehensive authorization of the State Department. Doing so is a core responsibility of this committee and is our best opportunity to strengthen American leadership and diplomacy. And this committee has in recent years been successful in passing and enacting authorizing legislation to do just this. I've had the opportunity to contribute meaningful legislation now enacted to strengthen the State Department, USAD, and the foreign service.
▶ 1:07:54In drafting this legislation, though, there's always a balance that we strike. The language must be specific enough to set direction of the department, but flexible enough for our diplomats and foreign assistance professionals to implement the laws in an everchanging international landscape. This has for decades been a careful balance built on trust and good faith between each Congress and each administration. Unfortunately, the Trump administration has abused this relationship and dynamic.
▶ 1:08:23The Congress has for decades authorized specific programs and agencies. USAD, the Interamerican Foundation, the US African Development Foundation, the United States Institute of Peace, the Millennium Challenge Corporation. Bipartisan laws have established each of these agencies and their programs. Laws continue to direct funding for these agencies and their programs.
▶ 1:08:47In each of these cases, the administration has directed the agencies to reduce operations to quote minimum required by statute, essentially closing the agencies down. They have abused the flexibility afforded by the law to essentially terminate these programs.
▶ 1:09:05An authorization to do something without a requirement that it specifically be done is being interpreted as permission to ignore congressional intent and refuse to undertake the activity.
▶ 1:09:19In the current environment, if the Congress wants a law to be enacted, it seems the language must be very specific and bind the hands of our diplomats so that they have no So, I wanted to ask ambassadors Jeffrey and Hail, how effective do you think our diplomats would be if the laws provide the department little to no flexibility because the Congress cannot trust the President of the United States to faithfully execute the laws of the United States.
▶ 1:09:49um the Secretary of State and his or her um subordinates need a considerable amount of flexibility uh to carry out the intent of Congress. Uh I don't want to get into what is you know in the middle of a uh very partisan and hot debate. What I would say is it's very important that Congress not just authorize an activity or an agency but state what the goals are in general terms.
▶ 1:10:17we can then operate in terms of what the military calls troops to task to figure out how to do that, what the procedures are, what kind of people we need, but uh general guidance in some detail uh is always good to know which direction you're going. And again, the trafficking in people uh it was very clear that Congress wanted us to put an end to this and we've done a pretty good job. Ambassador. Yeah.
▶ 1:10:44No, I would agree uh very much and I would also, you know, uh underscore would state the obvious that you know the world changes. Foreign policy is constant needs to be nimble and a droid and able to respond to emerging problems that we didn't anticipate. Maybe we should have, maybe we shouldn't have, but we didn't. And we need to be able to have a consultation with you all here on the hill about those emerging and changing threats and opportunities as well.
▶ 1:11:09uh and make sure that that we have the flexibility we need, but also we're connected to you and it's not just a matter of when you're have your confirmation hearing or when you're called up for a very formal event, but the on ongoing consultations with members and staff. Sure. Well, USAD, the Interamerican Foundation, the US African Development Foundation, the United States Institute of Peace, and the Millennium Challenge Corporation have all been established by law and have existing valid authorizations.
▶ 1:11:38Yet the administration has moved to eliminate all of these entities. It has abused and exploited the difference between the spirit or the gap between the spirit and the letter of the law. And so far, this committee and this Congress have allowed the president and the administration to do that.
▶ 1:12:01Perhaps we'll see in the coming years, but forever resetting the balance of power and control between the executive branch and the president and this Congress. That is going on in real time right now. This committee and this Congress are surrendering influence and control over our diplomacy to the president of the United States. I yield Thank you, Representative Castro. Representative Bar. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:12:29chairman for this uh very important hearing and um far from far from seeding um uh Congress's authority to the executive branch, this entire exercise is about Congress uh reclaiming its important role in uh authorizing and reauthorizing the State Department. Um uh thank you to our ambassadors for your service. I just returned uh from a bipartisan codell to from our embassy in Tokyo.
▶ 1:12:57Uh uh I thanked our incredible foreign service personnel there in that uh spectacular embassy there and thank them for their service. And I think uh our foreign service personnel uh who are for deployed in embassies and missions across the globe and who uh do a great job representing our country and our values overseas.
▶ 1:13:19They deserve a reauthorized state department that uh that reforms in some cases uh the department that in some cases economizes uh the department rethinks and reimagines and modernizes the department uh strengthens and in some case in some cases refocuses the department. I think our foreign service personnel and our diplomats deserve that and that's what this uh entire uh uh opportunity presents.
▶ 1:13:48Uh I'd like to take my time to clear the air on some negative press that this administration has received for this muchneeded reorganization of the State Department. Critics have argued that cuts and reviews undermine American soft power and damage alliances with their allies. But our own Secretary of State and other senior officials have said that's not true.
▶ 1:14:07Secretary of State Rubio recently stated, "We're going to be involved in those things, caring about human rights, but it's going to be run at the embassy and regional level, not out of some office in Washington, DC." Um, speaking uh on the America first trade agenda, Secretary Bessant said, "America first does not mean America alone.
▶ 1:14:27To the contrary, it's a call for deeper collaboration and mutual respect among trade partners." Tammy Bruce, spokesperson for the State Department on reorganiz reorg reorganizing US aid said that don't mistake a change for indicating that something is gone. It was never about us abandoning our commitment to funding of any kind, but it's going to look different and now it will. It will actually be going to be within a functional framework. Secretary Rubio said about diplomacy in the Middle East.
▶ 1:14:55This is this is not a president that's looking to start wars. He's a president that's looking to stop the Houthis and present prevent them. That's why we we've been focused on Ukraine and that's why we're having talks with Iranians. We're committed to achieving a peaceful outcome that's acceptable to everyone. We want to achieve a peaceful resolution and not resort to to to anything else.
▶ 1:15:14Ambassador Jeffrey, do you see the need for consolidation and more streamlined processes at the State Department and and more focus and how could it be actually beneficial to advancing American foreign policy? Uh yes, I do.
▶ 1:15:29I think first of all uh it's important that whatever this or any administration does it reflects uh a general thrust of policy that we can be sure the next administration regardless of Republican or Democratic will follow. Uh when we deal with countries and they say yes to something we're asking they're making an investment just like people do in the stock market and they're investing in an assumption that there will be returns on this.
▶ 1:15:58it's somewhat transactional and thus predictability and consistency are important. So, anything that uh streamlines the organization and makes it more efficient will help. Uh again, the devil is in the details on what you throw overboard, but there's a lot of stuff that needs to continue. Again, um focus on the operating elements of the Department of State. Those are the geographic bureaus.
▶ 1:16:25Those are the people who even though they're only assistant secretaries, they spend much more time with the secretary of state than most other people in the building. Uh, and they're his or her operating arms. They're very important to empower. Well, I I do think that uh refocusing and reorganizing really could enhance morale among our diplomats and uh give them additional mission and purpose. Um, one final question about China.
▶ 1:16:51uh in this new era of great power competition, uh where should the State Department focus its efforts uh with respect to competition with the PRC and and should we think seriously about some of our diplomatic efforts that actually um push would be partners into the arms of China like our uh uh the previous administration's efforts to to push to to push against a domestic law in Uganda that actually encouraged China to build up a belt and
▶ 1:17:21road project there. Uh well, I was involved when I was under secretary in a major reorganization effort to to confront the problem that we faced in China because the organization while there the Washington consensus as they say had shifted and recognized the problem the bureaucracy had not. And so we took the positions that were liberated out of uh Baghdad, Basra and Kabell as uh circumstances changed there and assigned them to the to the China team.
▶ 1:17:50A lot of people wanted them to be sent to China and I was one of those arguing and successfully so against uh too much of that. Instead, we needed those those resources and those people which are our main resource at the state department uh to be on the front lines where where we were dealing with the invidious Chinese influence and that included international organizations as well as different countries in the world and you mentioned one of them.
▶ 1:18:13Um and so that's and we did a we did a uh I think a pretty impressive uh exercise in gathering data to understand exactly what the nature of the Chinese threat was in every country in the world both business security public diplomacy all the different categories of influence and decide where where were the countries where frankly it was too far gone that resources were wasted there. Where were the countries where there was still competition and where was the competition needed?
▶ 1:18:41And then to make sure that our country teams in each of those places had the resources and the strategy to deal with it because how you deal with China and Thailand is going to be different than how you deal with it in El Salvador. And then to proitize with our people to make sure they understood that whatever you were doing before now, China was at the top of your list. And I think we I think we made great inroads. Well, I have great respect for our our diplomats and that's exactly why I support uh this reauthorization process uh to continue to strengthen this the department. I yield back.
▶ 1:19:12I now recognize Representative Titus. Thank you. Uh well, while we're hearing about devastating cuts that are coming from the other side of the aisle, I'd like to talk about maybe some productive ways that we could enhance the mission through the State Department. One of those I believe is establishing a diplomatic reserve corps.
▶ 1:19:34That's uh an initiative that I believe would make the State Department more agile and better able to respond to crisis around the world and more quickly. And I'm going to be introducing a bill that establishes such a core. Ambassador Jeffrey, you've been a career ambassador in Iraq and Turkey. You mentioned Albania. You've been a deputy national security adviser. Would you speak to the advantages of having such a reserve corps? Uh, I think they're extraordinary.
▶ 1:20:03I've seen how it works with the military. It's what kept us afloat in several conflicts, rotating people in and out. It also gives the secretary flexibility uh without having to expand dramatically the personnel in the costs of the department because, as you can see, that's not appreciated by everybody here or in the country as a whole.
▶ 1:20:25uh a reserve core would be much cheaper and in some respects more flexible because these are people who uh uh are ready to go on an instance notice in many cases. Uh we've tried variants of this on an uh experimental basis before and I think it it proved its worth. So I would strongly support that because there will be surges.
▶ 1:20:49we're going to be involved in the kind of thing we did in Iraq and Afghanistan sooner or later uh one way or the other we have been through the uh history of the foreign service and the US government doing well by doing good or vice versa but meets it. Well, thank you. I'm glad to hear you say that and I hope my colleagues will pay attention to that that it meets some of their goals of being more efficient and uh and and also serving the mission.
▶ 1:21:17Uh second question is that if you look at Senator Rubio's comments during his confirmation hearing, he said preventing crisis is a lot cheaper and a lot better than dealing with crisis after the fact. Now I happen to agree with that. But when I look at the State Department reorganization, I see that the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations has disappeared. Uh I don't see it on the new organization chart.
▶ 1:21:46looks like it's going to sunset according to the fact sheet. I think this bureau is very important. It plays a role in atrocities prevention uh implementation of the global fragility act, conflict mapping and analysis, support for peace negotiations. Uh but it's gone. I mean where where's it gone? Are these these technical capacities going to exist elsewhere in the state department? Would you address that?
▶ 1:22:16Uh, Missia, thank you. Uh, absolutely. The, uh, Bureau of Conflict Stabilization Operations has evolved into really the premier players supporting um, highstakes diplomatic negotiations, including the achievement of a sessation of hostilities agreement in Ethiopia that ended um, the the devastating conflict in Tigra.
▶ 1:22:42But they've also helped our uh efforts to stand up and uh a temporary uh political authority in Haiti. They've supported diplomatic efforts on Sudan. And as we've discussed, they are the government lead on the Global Fragility Act, a bipartisan effort to really u pursue evidence-based locally appro approaches to better prevent and end conflict sustainably.
▶ 1:23:11So you know from an oversight perspective I think there are a lot of questions as to what consolidation means and there's a real imperative to ensure the uni United States does not lose this tremendous reserve of expertise that is making a difference in an effort to slash and consolidate and on the overall point of consolidation I want to say that the world is so complex that you simply cannot concentrate it in the hands
▶ 1:23:41of six regional under secretaries. Uh the functional bureaus of the department of state are absolutely operational and strategic. One of the ones that I oversaw, the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement, stood up a coalition of more than 160 countries to fight the scourge of synthetic illicit synthetic drugs and fentinyl.
▶ 1:24:04So, this is really a moment for all players on the field, not to take out our team members in a shortsighted uh effort to streamline that undercuts our interests. Thank you very much. I yield back. The chair now recognizes Representative Jackson from Texas. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Appreciate your time.
▶ 1:24:30For over 20 years, Congress has failed to properly reauthorize the State Department, which has allowed the federal bureaucracy to circumvent congressional oversight. If Biden's State Department proved anything to us, it's that these bloated agencies must be kept in check, or federal bureaucrats will act on their own whims, independent of the needs of the American people. Thankfully, President Trump and Secretary Rubio have already taken decisive action to restructure the Department of State to better align with our foreign policy objectives and put citizens of the United States first.
▶ 1:24:59Both sides of the aisle have argued that foreign service performance evaluation and promotion processes lack objectivity and transparency. The issue is largely due to the previous administration's obsession with DEI where former Secretary of State Blinken released a 5-year diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility strategic plan to quote ensure that the Department of State is a leader in the governmentwide efforts to advance DEIa goals for federal workforce.
▶ 1:25:27Fortunately, President Trump and Secretary Rubio are working to ensure that all foreign service recruitment, hiring, promotion, and retention decisions are based on an individual's merit and merit alone. Ambassador Hail, what can this committee do to ensure that foreign service, personnel, education, and promotion processes are based on merit even after the Trump administration is completed? Well, I think this is a core concern. Um, we're we're a meritocracy.
▶ 1:25:56Uh the foreign service is largely based on staffing is largely based on foreign service exam that is competitive. Uh and we are pledged to the concept of up or out. In my experience, however, in my career, there was a lot of up, but there wasn't much out.
▶ 1:26:14And my data may be undoubtedly as old, but uh when I was in office, the data generally was about 0.5 to 1.5% uh of the of the foreign service each year was separated for basically for non-performance. Uh I suspect that there were probably more people than that who were not meeting the standards that uh objectively would be required.
▶ 1:26:37But part of the problem was that the the promotion process produces a list where the you know the bottom you know third or the the less less uh perform lower performing staff but then the next number you come into is how many positions do we have to fill. So the cut goes deeper than the cutoff mark for people who are really not performing by any objective standard. So we retain people who frankly really aren't capable which is where streamlining be can become very important.
▶ 1:27:07So you not only look at the people, but also look at positions and make sure that positions we have are really things we need to be doing. I personally don't get all that caught up in the reorganization charts. I'm not saying they're not important, but what is important is filling those boxes with people who can do the job. I mean, a filling them, which we've seen as a problem in in some administrations.
▶ 1:27:28Uh and then B making sure as I said at the beginning that they actually have the skill set needed and are held accountable to their performance and that they understand the mindset of the foreign service should be that we are not policy makers. We are there to provide our expertise and knowledge and advice.
▶ 1:27:45decision makers are other people and when decisions are made that we salute smartly and implement those policies rather than and and but they also has to make sure that we have a climate inside the foreign service and the civil service that enables disscent and creativity which is going to produce the best policies we can have. I agree with you on that and I also think that recruitment and retention are going to be important as well obviously and I think that a merit-based system will help with the recruitment and retention and fill some of those boxes you were talking about. Uh I have one more question real quick in my remaining time here.
▶ 1:28:15Uh, consular officers play a vital role in our national defense, adjudicating who receives a visa to come to the United States and who is denied entry. Ambassador Jeffrey, given the important role of the consular affairs office in maintaining the security of our borders, is there any merit to moving the consular visa adjudication function from the state department to the department of homeland security? And if not, why not?
▶ 1:28:38Um, as I indicated in my remarks, I would support that because the polic first, the policy is determined by Homeland Security, not the state department. U, secondly, we have more people from other agencies at a typical embassy than we do people from the state department.
▶ 1:28:57So just because there would be uh DH more DH people and a few less state department u visa officers uh that would not be a major change in how embassies work or deal with. But the third thing is and it gets to uh the question you posed to David. One reason that we're having a hard time evaluating on merit our foreign service officers is that we don't know what their core skill is.
▶ 1:29:23The Marine Corps is well aware of what it is every Marine a rifleman. Ours should be every foreign service officer a diplomat. But over the years, the accumulation of administrative functions has led to us thinking our people are managers. Now management is fine. I've got a masters in business administration. But the core skill is diplomacy.
▶ 1:29:47And the visa function unlike taking care of Americans abroad which is a core counsel or diplomatic function the visa function is a managerial function. It almost never involves dealing with the host government. We keep the host governments out of it just like they keep you know we don't have any say as a government in Germany or other countries letting you know Americans travel there. So, I think that it would be more it would be cleaner and it would streamline how we look at ourselves if that function were to go.
▶ 1:30:17Thank you, Ambassador. I appreciate your input and I yield back. Thank you. Thank you. I now recognize Representative Dean for five minutes. I thank you uh Chairwoman and I thank Ranking Member Meeks for organizing uh this hearing today and I thank you Ambassadors and Secretary uh for your years of service and of course for your expertise that you're offering us today.
▶ 1:30:38uh as we review what has been a very chaotic time uh lots of people are confused and I have to admit uh whether I'm speaking to folks uh from USAD here uh in the United States or abroad or I'm speaking to folks from State Department here or abroad having just come back from Denmark, Ukraine uh Jordan uh Israel uh with ranking member Meeks uh folks are confused and I want to lift up the people who
▶ 1:31:08have worked for USAD. Many of them dismissed with zero notice, not even able to take their own belongings, their own personal photos of their work, uh dismissed with such utter disregard. Uh and now what is going on with the Department of State, I want to lift up the people who have worked in the Department of State. uh I am utterly impressed uh to a person with their dedication to diplomacy to service to this country and the same for USAD.
▶ 1:31:39So uh unfortunately since his return to office in January, President Trump has chosen to attempt to overpower foreign partners rather than engage in strategic diplomacy. Uh his administration claims their policies will bring safety, security, and prosperity.
▶ 1:31:56many of the points that you brought up uh Madame Secretary to America, but all that I've seen thus far is a reeling economy, weakened relationships with our allies and emboldened adversaries. The cornerstone of US foreign policy, an approach to foreign aid has always been the 3D approach, defense, diplomacy, development.
▶ 1:32:20Unfortunately, we have seen a secretary of defense, for example, who repeatedly compromises national security to no account. Shuttering of USAID under this administration, an agency that saves millions of lives and builds goodwill for America, builds our own national security.
▶ 1:32:42And now this drastic set of proposals and rapid changes to the State Department, which as you said, Madam Secretary, will hobble diplomatic strength and create a void that our adversaries are obviously taking a close look at and probably enjoying. Like USAD, as I said, State Department is filled with some of the most knowledgeable in foreign affairs, national security, and humanitarian uh work.
▶ 1:33:12It honors expertise and takes years to cultivate. And yet, Secretary Rubio, and it's baffling to me, does not advocate for the very department he's tasked to lead. I don't understand that. Proposing further personnel and budget cuts that will exacerbate and damage, and Doge has already done great damage. Uh I maybe I'll start with you, Madam Secretary. Uh you pointed out so succinctly the three points uh in your testimony and in your written testimony as well.
▶ 1:33:41Do you think that what we're seeing here with the cuts uh to the state department has followed a critical analysis of where we could be streamlining where we do have duplication of efforts where we have talented people that we need to make sure stay there or grow there? Have we gone through that process and did I just miss it? Thank you, Representative Dean.
▶ 1:34:03Uh I have seen no sign of such a process or even a strategy and and I do so appreciate your words uh commending the sacrifices and the commitment of former USA colleagues as well as former state colleagues. I I just want to share two quick stories about USADE's impact and who they are up against. I I was in Kev last October where USA literally is keeping the lights and the heat on uh the night before my arrival.
▶ 1:34:32uh 150 drones rained down on Kev. They were Iranian provided part of this axis including Iran, the DPRK. China also supporting Russia's continued illegal aggression against Ukraine. They're trying they tried unsuccessfully to destroy Ukraine's electric infrastructure. And it was USAID experts working in partnership with the Ukrainian government who were able to literally keep the population from freezing to death.
▶ 1:35:02That's one sign of their impact. A second is on the I mentioned fentinel and uh counter narcotics efforts that are you know fentinyl is the leading cause of death for Americans between the ages of 18 and 49. People may not realize that USA working in partnership with the state department is literally clawing back rural territories formerly under the control of Kland Gulfo and it isn't one siloed approach. It isn't just security.
▶ 1:35:30It is security and development and it is human- centered security that meets the needs of the population and does not leave them to be prayed upon by the narcos and some of the world's worst criminal organizations. I thank you very much because uh that is a passion of mine. Uh opioid addiction has touched my family. I have a son in recovery, 12 years in recovery.
▶ 1:35:52Uh and the fentinel crisis that is stealing at this point 87,000 lives a year uh is something that we must pay attention to and I have to admit the president has talked about caring about fentinel. So why would we just disregard where we are making progress? With that I yield back. Thank you. I now recognize Representative Self for five minutes of questioning. Uh, thank you, Madam Chair.
▶ 1:36:20Um, first of all, this is an opportunity to get the State Department right. I I hope. Um, and I will tell you, I'm going to start with a quote from Clausivitz. Uh, war is a mere continuation of policy by other means. Uh, I am convinced that we are, we call it great power competition. I'm not sure that's what it is. I think we're in a hybrid war now.
▶ 1:36:44Uh you may remember just a couple of days ago in Spain, Portugal, and southern part of uh of France, there was a an outage. Uh Seaman security now says that it was a cyber attack. Uh it was on the SCADA equipment and it caused cascading failure across two countries and part of another.
▶ 1:37:04Um, I want to pick up on something that um that uh Chairman Emeritus McCall said uh because um in on in your written statement, Ambassador Jeffrey uh you talked about uh the DoD combatant commands be need to be aligned with the bureaus.
▶ 1:37:29Uh I am of the opinion and I'd like your opinion of State Department and DoD need to work together in the national interest of the United States across the world. Uh because policy in the State Department simply is uh acting in our national interest and eventually to prelude war between great powers.
▶ 1:37:48Um, so I think I think that uh this committee ought to inform the NDAA because we ought to have a co coordinated national policy for where we are going uh as a nation which would include the backup of hard power to any soft power that we exercise around the world. Uh China is certainly on the march and they've they're making moves toward Taiwan.
▶ 1:38:15I just returned uh from Europe and one of the points we were making to our European allies is when they build infrastructure such as pipelines. They need to be coordinated with the war plans that General Cavolei is putting in place in NATO and turning NATO into a legitimate warfighting organization. Uh so uh yesterday I held a hearing in the Europe subcommittee on the uh uh cyerspace and digital policy uh branch of of state department.
▶ 1:38:45So I would ask you uh ambassador for your thoughts on this and particularly the digital policy here because it is a part of the hybrid war that we are in now. Um thank you u congressman and thanks for the clausvitz uh quote. It's one of my favorites. uh our flag officers are responsible for the other means that's their business. Our job is the continuation that plug in between policy and what the military is doing in the field.
▶ 1:39:14The things they blow up, the things territory they hold, territory they seize. uh and I found the military is very willing to listen to diplomats in the state department but the procedures be it on the digital account be it on uh emerging technologies be it on uh new threats uh the channels have to be clear-cut.
▶ 1:39:40It's very hard to have two battle buddies and most of our combatant commanders and most of our assistant secretaries are in that situation and it undercuts the immediate understanding the sort of mindmeld that you get in the field. For example, when I was uh uh in Iraq and later in Syria, I had a three or four star military counterpart in only one and uh those officers only had one. it was me and it worked very very well.
▶ 1:40:10So I do think that that's important in terms of the new threats again uh we bring the civilian side which is often very important on these emerging military technologies again cyber uh digital all of that stuff uh we can bring that to the table and we can reinforce what the military is doing. Uh very good. So for the two ambassadors, where would you put cyerspace and digital policy?
▶ 1:40:39You mean organizationally in the department? Where would you put it? I think it's really hard actually. You can have pros and cons for any of the conceivable ideas that I've seen. Um there was a movement to put it under P where I I served. I didn't think that was a particularly wise idea partly because I knew I didn't have the uh the skill set frankly as under secretary to really grapple with the cyber threat. It was beyond my experience zone.
▶ 1:41:06So I think the first thing not to skip your answer I'll come back to it but the first thing is to make sure we actually have people who can handle it you know who have the background. We we we are diplomats as Jim said first and foremost we also have to have the technical competence to deal with the subject matter at hand. And I don't believe we've been training people to deal with a cyber threat. I would put it under under in the tea family if if forced to to make a decision. Um because again I think you're more likely to get the kind of people who have the frame of mind uh to deal with it.
▶ 1:41:35It's global in nature of course. Um and so that's that's where I would put it. And I know time is of the essence but I would just reinforce in my experience the coordination between the foreign service and embassies and combat and commanders has been superb. And it works far better in the field than DoD state relationships do back here. Not that they're bad, but overseas, I think, because we're all on the front lines of whatever we're dealing with, the cooperation and communication is really outstanding.
▶ 1:42:01Very quickly, Ambassador, do you have a an idea on CDP organizationally? Uh, yes, I would agree with uh David. it should be uh one of the global bureaus of offices probably T but the key thing is those are the kind of global things I like because they provide technical expertise it's a worldwide problem it spreads beyond any regional bureau uh and they provide support to us like the counterterrorism
▶ 1:42:32people do they don't try to do our job for us or take it away from us or compete with us and that's very important thank Thank you, Representative Self. Representative Barah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, you know, this is my 13th year on this committee.
▶ 1:42:48And, you know, I have always enjoyed the foreign affairs committee in in in the past, you know, under the the guidance of Elliot Angel and Ed Royce is, yeah, we'll have heated debate, but when we're out there abroad, we're representing the United States of America. And I think we're all proud as Democrats and Republicans um of who we are as Americans and what we've accomplished. When I'm out there, you I do travel a lot on this committee as well as on the intelligence committee.
▶ 1:43:17Um and I see our brave men and women out there, foreign service officers, aid and development folks in conflict zones and refugee camps. And um I have the utmost respect for them as I do for our men and women in military um uniform as well. and what they do to both um provide the goodwill abroad for as the people of the United States but also to protect our services. So to the three um of you, thank you for your service.
▶ 1:43:46If I look at the accomplishments um of the United States, I'm incredibly proud of what we did post World War II in creating a a world order that created relative peace and prosperity for 75 years. um ending the Cold War without actually going to war with the Soviet Union. Many of you were there on the front lines. And that was the military and our diplomatic core working together. It wasn't Democratic or Republican.
▶ 1:44:13You know, we've had throughout that time Democratic and Republican administrations. We had a Congress, but we didn't go one way or the other. So, I don't think, Mr. Chairman, um you'll find a lot of resistance to doing a State Department authorization act. But what I would urge is let's do this in a bipartisan way. We can't make this a Republican authorization bill or a Democratic authorization bill. Look, we're in the minority. Um I won't say let's meet at the 50ard line.
▶ 1:44:42We'll go to your 40 yard line, but if you take us to the 10 yard line to your end zone, we're not going to be able to do this. And the challenge is there's going to be a day when the Democrats are back in the majority. I hope that's in 2026. chairman makes. Um, and if we do this together, then we can actually have something enduring. We're not going to get it all right, but we can get it, you know, mostly right.
▶ 1:45:09So, we're not constantly every two, four years going back and forth. That doesn't serve our interests well. That doesn't serve um the world's interest well because this is a different world. We're in the 21st century now. We've got to do this together. We've got to think about this, you know. Um, I would not go about a reorganization the way President Trump is. Um, but it is what it is.
▶ 1:45:31It's creating an opportunity for us to build something better that's more reflective of today's world to, you know, where we have programs that no longer make sense. Great. But that doesn't mean we should retreat from the world. We should take the best minds, folks like all three of you who have been on the front lines, use your expertise, tell us how we could do this better, what work, what doesn't work. But we should do it in this committee as Democrats and Republicans working together.
▶ 1:45:59So in two years, if we have the gavls, we're not undoing everything and starting from scratch. Let's do something that's lasting that gets better um each each time. Let's reaffirm who we are as a foreign affairs committee. Chairman McCall talked about what we do. Yeah, we pass authorization bills, but we always attach it to the NDAA. There's so much that we should have jurisdiction over as the Foreign Affairs Committee that goes into the Pentagon budget.
▶ 1:46:25That's not to knock the NDA, but the NDA is going to be a trillion dollar bill. We don't have to spend more money. We just have to take some of what's in that trillion dollar NDAA, pull it back into our budget, pull it back into um where it belongs in a State Department authorization bill. I'm willing to work together if we do this in a bipartisan way. we can keep the divisive stuff out of this. Um, you know, um, we're going to need a state department. We're going to need aid and development.
▶ 1:46:53You know, when I, you know, it I got time to spend with my good friend Joe Wilson. Every time he says we're criminal Putin, it makes me feel really good. Um, but the real work's going to be I hope President Trump's successful in finding a ceasefire that is good for the Ukrainian people. But we're going to have to do a lot of work diplomatically to then make sure there's an enduring peace. What is rebuilding Ukraine going to look like?
▶ 1:47:18Um, you know, when Joe Wilson talks about the butcher Assad, the Syrian people have a real opportunity here, but it is going to take diplomats. It is going to take Democrats, Republicans, a strong diplomatic development corps to give them the best chance at success and peace. So again, I'm not going to ask you questions. Thank you for your service. Thank you for all those foreign um service officers. But there's a real opportunity in this disruption.
▶ 1:47:43It's not how I would do it, but if we work together as Democrats and Republicans, meet at the 40 yard line, we're going to like some things, we're not going to like some things, but we do this together in this committee, I think we can have a lasting State Department. Thank you, Representative Bar.
▶ 1:47:58And I'll just comment on on your comments as well to say this State Department reauthorization from building this process and the committee from the ground up has been about uh really looking at where this process has been done at this pedantic drum beat. You know, looking at armed services and saying how did they get that accomplished every single, you know, Congress. How did they get that done? and make it an expectations that there's not appropriations for armed services without the authorization of armed services going on.
▶ 1:48:28If certainly if they can do it with uh a budget 10 times the size of what our budget is, then we should certainly have the ability to do that uh with the the scope of that for for what we have to deal with in terms of programming there. every member, Republican, Democrat, will have that opportunity to submit their ideas, you know, to a to a portal for this to say, "This is what I want in a reauthorization.
▶ 1:48:51This is what I want to prioritize and depprioritize." And so 100% member-driven process and the the process to build out doing this what is the what is our focus in doing this has been to literally hire on staff from armed services because they have that muscle memory of doing that NDAA year after year after year that we want to say hey we need to create that muscle memory of doing that here on on foreign affairs year after year after year congress
▶ 1:49:21after congress. So, uh, your point, uh, has is reflected on now and has been reflected on in the past. So, I thank you for your comments. Uh, Representative Kim, you are recognized. Thank you, Chairman Mast. And I also want to thank Ranking Member Mix for holding today's hearing. And thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.
▶ 1:49:41uh as it's been stated uh in 20 years we have uh opportunity to uh you know you know work on reauthorizing the state department. So, as my colleague uh and ranking member on the uh uh subcommittee that we both serve on, I agree with him that I need we need to work together and find a bipartisan reforms that will continue to strengthen our US leadership on the world stage and also make sure that US is
▶ 1:50:11remaining the partner of choice uh you know in the world stage with you know with our allies and partners who depend on our leadership. uh the state department over time has struggled to find its purpose and its most important authorities and functions have been absorbed by other agencies. This is especially true when it comes to uh the economic state craft.
▶ 1:50:35In 2012, President Obama proposed the consolidation of six agencies including USR, commerce and others to bring coherence to our economic state group uh craft portfolio. But that effort failed to materialize. So I want to ask you uh Mr. Hail, is bringing USR back into the Department of State as it was before 1961, is that a good idea? Why or why not?
▶ 1:51:03I definitely believe that there is a need for greater uh integration and coordination of our international economic uh policies and resources and agencies. I'm not wedded to any specific proposal on doing that. you would be a better judge of me, the reality that there are important domestic political factors in play here that uh that would have to be you know weighed.
▶ 1:51:26Um I would certainly believe that uh I understand why a president wants to have a cabinet ranked member uh you know of his team dealing with trade, but I've witnessed firsthand where the separation of the agencies has has not allowed us to do the best job possible. And USR in particular suffers, if I may say so.
▶ 1:51:46They're very capable people, but it's a very small agency and the bandwidth is such I got to can I can only imagine how they're dealing with the uh amount of of attention being focused on tariff and trade policies right now. So, I would encourage not just thinking about what our embassies can do to better integrate, but how the State Department can incorporate some of these. And third, you know, there's been a lot of tinkering with a national economic council and having like a NSE equivalent to deal with national economic and international strategies.
▶ 1:52:15I haven't seen it really work the way the NSC works where it's a really functioning demand-driven organization where the president's leadership is clearly understood by everyone involved. That could be improved. Thank you. You know, in 1979, the foreign commercial service and foreign agriculture service were pulled out of the State Department, weakening our ability to advocate for American business overseas. So, Mr. Jeff, should FCS and FAS be brought back into the department?
▶ 1:52:45Uh absolutely, Congresswoman. Uh one of the core jobs of any uh embassy team led by the ambassador is to promote American business. uh not just big ticket items such as military sales u uh commercial aircraft uh energy projects although those are always at the top of the agenda but any kind of uh American business American farming initiative in a country uh
▶ 1:53:15not only should but usually does get the support of the ambassador and his or her team thus they should be under uh uh the I appreciate that perspective Ive you know in 1999 I want to talk about the uh the US AGM US information agency was dissolved and its component parts pushed into the department and created under secretary for public diplomacy and so international broadcasting elements like radio free Asia radio Europe radio free liberty and
▶ 1:53:45voice of America they were all merged into broadcasting board of governors and BBG and its successor organization the USAGM that we're talking about today were in order furiously dysfunctional and desperately needed reform. That is a widely accepted uh as fact. Uh so should these organizations be put under the state department's umbrella or be reconstituted as federal grantees? Mr. Hail, can you answer that?
▶ 1:54:15Well, in my mind, they're foreign policy tools, so they're best led by the foreign policy agency, the primary agency, which is the State Department. I would also though question you know in my background in the Middle East that the big question was the introduction after 911 of the Middle East broadcasting enterprise and I thought it was built on a false premise in that we you know radio free Europe Voice of America was fundamental during the cold war in filling a vacuum because the Soviet Union wasn't allowing any other news sources
▶ 1:54:45to come in we were able to do that that's not the problem in the Middle East there are news sources there we can get an American official or American invoices on any platform we want. It's a question of content. So I wouldn't be spending money on building platforms to try to compete with Alabia or Al Jazzer. I would be thinking about how we can use our talent to make our case on those and other platforms.
▶ 1:55:08So talking about content very briefly chairman if USAM is not replaced with some new organization are we seeding the information space to our adversaries because content wise we're not providing we're not winning the information war. Oh yeah definitely and I experienced this as under secretary and talking all around the world with our ambassadors about what they needed and we had plenty of PD resources in the Middle East and South Asia. Uh we didn't in Europe and they were China was eating our lunch so to speak.
▶ 1:55:37Uh and so yes, but content, not necessarily replicating platforms. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Kim. Representative Vchevski. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Uh I want to thank you, Chairman Mast and the ranking member uh ranking member Meeks for convening this hearing. Thank you to all of our witnesses. Appreciate my colleagues flexibility, this committee's flexibility as I bounce between here and and a markup today. Uh I also want to just say I very much look forward to engaging with Secretary Rubio. Um Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:56:07Chairman, thank you for your help in facilitating that in the weeks ahead. As I've said many times before, uh this administration has the right, maybe even the obligation to explore reforms and to ensure policies that align with its foreign policy goals. However, I do question some of the administration's re recent actions in advancement of these objectives. Uh I want to thank my friend and colleague, Representative Kim, for leading an amazing bipartisan trip to the East Pacific reason recently.
▶ 1:56:36uh where I had the opportunity to see firsthand how many of our allies are losing confidence in America's commitment to as this administration guts critical foreign aid funding and diplomatic programs. Our partners are confused and they are concerned uh about why the US is voluntarily seeding influence to the region uh to China. Why can't we be stronger? Um we are being asked often and we know that we can't be stronger if we're isolated.
▶ 1:57:04I will continue to beat the drum with my colleagues on the importance of showing up and standing with our allies. Uh what also concerns me is a lack of clarity from the State Department on how it plans to administer development assistance. We know that humanitarian programs are critical to strengthening stability in developing countries. But as the first Trump administration's own journey to self-reliance framework recognized, lasting stability requires also addressing root causes, including weak governance, infrastructure gaps, and economic exclusion.
▶ 1:57:34Discarding the very long-term development tools needed to prevent recurring crises and creating durable markets for US goods is short-sighted in my opinion. It fails to provide countries with the support they need to transition off of US assistance, a goal I think we all share. Uh that being said, without development programs, partner countries will be unable to take on the kinds of projects that the DFC aims to finance alongside the US private sector.
▶ 1:57:59Countries cannot simply transition from receiving humanitarian assistance to absorbing largecale private sector investments. There must be a middle phase that builds capacity, provides technical assistance, and grows economies. I'll start with you, Under Secretary Za. Can you talk a little bit about why development assistance is such an integral part of US foreign assistance and how can we use state authorization to protect programs that drive long-term sustainable growth around the world? Thank you, Congressman.
▶ 1:58:27I absolutely agree with you that we cannot neglect that middle phase and um you know make the choice of of just security and humanitarian assistance. What is development assistance? It is addressing the root causes of instability which can threaten our own national security and prosperity prosperity.
▶ 1:58:48It is supporting health systems that have put us on the cusp of eliminating HIV AIDS as a global scourge and all of those gains are at risk of loss given some of the chaotic uh cuts that have been executed. But it's also about accountable governance, responsive governance.
▶ 1:59:10If you look at the migration challenge in this hemisphere, the toxic governance in Venezuela and Nicaragua and Cuba has resulted in unprecedented out migration. We simply cannot afford to not care about the human rights situations in our own hemisphere and elsewhere. And look at who is cheering the removal of USID from the field. you know, our biggest adversaries, Thran, Beijing, Moscow.
▶ 1:59:40That should tell you something about the impact of these efforts and that this is not something to simply discard entirely because of objections to uh a handful of particular programs. Thank you for that. And with my remaining time, uh a question for everyone uh about the human impacts of this reorganization.
▶ 2:00:01Uh reports are suggesting a 15% reduction in US-based State Department personnel and the near total elimination of USID um in about 20,000 jobs total. We're talking about real Americans, real impact, real work. Um this question again is for everyone. Does the State Department have the expertise and staff to take on these USAD foreign assistance functions, programming, implementation, and oversight? In what areas would the State Department need to staff up in order to handle that transition appropriately uh without adequate staff?
▶ 2:00:31Will that impact the accountability in light of that first question? I mean the quick answer is no across the board and whether it's disaster response where I think we saw a disastrous outcome with respect to the earthquake in Burma where you know our team on the ground was fired and leaving a vacuum for the PRC and others to come in. uh with respect to famine response.
▶ 2:00:55I mean the it's very important to recognize the decades of technical expertise and operational leadership which is very different from a lot of the assistance managed out of Washington that teams in the PRM bureau and PEPAR have done a phenomenal job but it doesn't add up to terminate the people with that expertise with no hope or no clear path to be reintegrated into a new entity to my mind
▶ 2:01:25the the concept of integrating aid uh into the state department which as was mentioned goes all the way back frankly I was working for Maline Albbright when we she tried to do that the early mid 1990s uh isn't so much that you're going to find people who are current foreign service officers at the state department who are suddenly going to be able to do US aid workers work by the way much of which is done by contractors not by direct hire um it's that you need to do perhaps a better job than we've done to make sure that our foreign
▶ 2:01:55policies and aid policies are actually fully integrated, which overseas works reasonably well. In Washington, it doesn't work well at all. Um, and you can cast blame to lots of different directions. I wouldn't blame people. I don't believe in demonizing anyone. Uh, I worked well with my aid colleagues and have tremendous respect for them. But that to me is what aid should be about.
▶ 2:02:17To answer your question, of course, as that happens, is an office director for a certain re geographical part of the world going to automatically be able to be a manager for the aid programs as well? Of course not. We need to integrate these processes, not substitute them. Thank you very much. I yield, Mr. Chair. Representative Baird. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank our witnesses for being here today. You know, uh uh agriculture is important to me and it's important to our country.
▶ 2:02:47and we make a contribution from agriculture to US aid around the world and had the opportunity to go to Florida or to uh Africa a couple of times. So I'm just setting the stage for my question here in a minute. Uh sometimes those those commodities end up being in the hands of of adversaries used as it's fungeible.
▶ 2:03:08It's used as money instead of really ended up so my point is that this statistic from the USAD is only 12.6 7% of that funding actually ends up in the hands of the people we intended it for. And so that's that's the question.
▶ 2:03:24So now now when you look at international organizations uh the the state department contributes more than$8 billion annually to international organizations and uh if we cannot audit that or make sure that it's going to the appropriate recipients then I'm concerned about it.
▶ 2:03:42So my question comes down to uh going forward, what do you think with all of your experience the actions should be from Congress in order to allow the government to have oversight mechanisms that are appropriate to assess the relevant information to ensure compliance from these uh different NOS's.
▶ 2:04:05So, I want to know what we can do to make sure that that those commodities or whatever we're providing through US aid is really getting to the people need it because I understand the the concern about PRC uh but I'm not sure that we're being effective as we should be with our US If I might uh jump in uh Congressman, I would say this is this is why it's so critical to resource that oversight and you know the dismissal of
▶ 2:04:35inspectors general at multiple agencies including USAID. I think that was a setback but certainly we have to make absolutely sure that all of that taxpayer funded assistance is reaching its intended recipient.
▶ 2:04:49I think the 12% was with respect to local partners who are you know the first uh recipient of this US large s but I think you're absolutely right but we have to in this challenge funding environment still have the manpower the people who can ensure the money is well spent and I think individual agencies have layers of support for that but the 15% %
▶ 2:05:20cut across the board in the department. It's going to be a difficult choice. I think on the domestic side where those cuts are going to come out. Um I would just say that in my experience most recently with Syria uh the USAD uh watched closely uh on diversion and who it was going to and that's to be uh applauded.
▶ 2:05:43that is absolutely necessary and whatever the organization is, it is important that those functions uh under whatever hat uh and the people who know how to do that uh continue to carry out those functions. Uh in terms of aid to international organizations, there's the famous case of UNRA uh in Gaza in particular. Uh that's troubling.
▶ 2:06:05That's a special case and it's something for Congress and I think uh the U State Department to take a closer look at. Well, sure. I agree. I think that it's um you know beholden on all of us to make sure that there's accountability and that the money is not wasted um goes to the recipients. I think there's also a deeper question which is uh can we do a better job in measuring actually the impact that we're having?
▶ 2:06:34I mean, we have all of these sometimes grandiose objectives about our foreign assistance, which no one's going to disagree with, but is the way we're doing aid uh actually achieving those goals and what is the process of measuring that? Who's measuring it? And what in my experience in government is that we end up measuring the things we can measure because that's easier.
▶ 2:06:54So you measure how many you know young women in southern Lebanon have been trained in English when that is supposed to be a means to an objective of transforming a society to make sure that there's you know 100% not 50% of the population is employable and that they are have access to things that make them more moderately inclined and more economically competitive. We don't measure that. We measure how many girls are going through an English program which I'm all in favor of.
▶ 2:07:20The point is we lose perspective because we lose sight of the objective that we have. Yeah. You know, and I can remember I won't name the country because it'll be embarrassing. In one of my countries, I had an aid director come to me. She said, you know, it's 50 years of a US aid program in this country. We want to have a celebration. Next year, we're going to celebrate it. And I said, no, we're not. I love the aid program. We're doing good stuff there. The country needs it, but we're not going to celebrate the fact we have a forever aid program somewhere.
▶ 2:07:48And that's because we're not measuring the outcomes or the results in any meaningful way. So in the authorization process, you can help us do that. I thank you. Uh my time is run out and so I yield back. Thank you, Representative Bair. Representative Almo. Thank you, Chairman Mast, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Uh none of the public hearings this committee has held on reauthorizing the State Department, including today's, have had a witness who is a current employee of the State Department.
▶ 2:08:18Uh, by comparison, at this point, last Congress, we heard from seven current State Department officials, including the Secretary of State. So, I look forward uh to seeing Secretary Rubio in this hearing room soon. This committee does not appear serious at this point about a thoughtful reauthorization process. If so, we would invite and have present current state leaders to be part of the public record so everybody can participate in the discussion.
▶ 2:08:48Instead, uh my colleagues on the other side of the the aisle seem content to once again rubber stamp President Trump and Secretary Rubio's halfbaked plan to eliminate programs that save lives. Let's highlight some of harms. Miss Za, could you provide one-word answers to the following questions? Would eliminating the office to monitor and combat trafficking in in persons help or hurt our anti-trafficking efforts? Hurt.
▶ 2:09:17Would it help or hurt our ability to rescue victims of human trafficking? Hurt. Would it help or hurt our ability to identify and prosecute human traffickers? Hurt. Turning now to the Office of Global Women's Issues, the branch focused on women and girls in peace and security processes. Would Secretary Rubio's elimination plan help or hurt women gaining leadership roles around the world? Hurt.
▶ 2:09:45Secretary Rubio proposed gutting the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations, which works to prevent conflicts that increase the risk of terrorism, trafficking, and smuggling. Would eliminating this Bureau help or hurt our national security? Hurt. Would it help or hurt our ability to combat terrorist acts? Hurt. Lastly, this bureau funds work to document human rights abuses, war crimes, and other atrocities.
▶ 2:10:14Would eliminating this bureau hurt or help our ability to prevent human rights violations? Hurt. So, it is critical here. I know we just ran through that exercise, but there are clear decisions, clear contrast. This plan puts us on the wrong side of those. Now uh I on this continued uh continued frustration that I have around humanitarian aid, you know, I refuse to be silent amid the the unlawful effort to shut down USAD.
▶ 2:10:44And let me underscore unlawful. The reorganization plan completely eliminates USAD and calls for regional bureaus, the State Department, as we've talked about, to take over the development programming in their region. For example, in subsaharan Africa, USAD had been working on improving education to promote economic growth and political stability in the region. Miss, you can take your time with this one.
▶ 2:11:08I don't need a one word, but does the State Department have the expertise and staff necessary to effectively implement formally USAD development programs like these education programs in subsaharan Africa? And how does eliminating USAD harm our global development efforts? Congressman, the short answer is no. It does not have the expertise and the resources. But I would also make the point that it simply does not add up to take on such responsibilities.
▶ 2:11:38At the same time, you are making an unjustified unexplained 15% to the domestic staff. And we've talked a lot about the foreign service which I was a member of proudly uh for uh three decades plus.
▶ 2:11:53But there is a civil service in the department um you know over 10,000 strong where there is a reserve of tremendous regional uh subject matter expertise but you simply cannot assign these responsibilities and I make the point about overseas presence because there is there has been a strong USA presence uh overseas uh both Americans and locally employed staff members who themselves are incredibly capable
▶ 2:12:24um dedicated employees of the United States who have really um specialized in areas where you simply cannot assign that to a foreign service officer or GS-13 and expect to have success by the way while you're cutting the hide out of those offices or eliminating over 130 offices at the same time. Look, and my time is is wrapping up, but I want to conclude with this.
▶ 2:12:48This reauthorization provides us with a great opportunity and I I'm grateful that there is bipartisan uh agreement that we can use this moment to advance our interest but not as we shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to uh the the expertise, the talent, the capacities that we have to make American interests uh meet the moment uh with our values across the world. My time is expired and I yield back.
▶ 2:13:17Thank you, Representative Ammo. And I would remind you it would be unconventional to have unconfirmed appointees uh come and testify before us. Uh additionally, I don't know if you were present, but Mr. Morocco did come and speak to us, testify before us as well. Uh and Secretary Rubio is scheduled to come uh sometime later in May. I don't know the exact date right off hand.
▶ 2:13:36And I would just take the opportunity to thank Secretary Rubio for what is his commitment to the American people, which is to to say very plainly that any dollar that goes out the door, whether to an American uh a foreign company, a foreign NGO, a foreign nonprofit, a foreign adversary, a foreign enemy, or or anybody else, uh will meet the justification that it's better spent going abroad than staying in the pocket of an American.
▶ 2:14:06That is his standard that he should be able to look somebody in the eye and say the dollar that came out of your pocket is better spent going to the Taliban or to some other continent or some non-government organization or somewhere else than staying in your pocket. That is the barrier that the threshold that he wishes to meet and I applaud him on that. And I recognize Representative Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for your testimony today.
▶ 2:14:34It's been 13 years since we last passed a State Department reauthorization. Since then, we've seen organization go totally overboard in promoting radical ideologies worldwide and executing our disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, which I take very personally. President Trump and Secretary Rubio are reforging a State Department that champions American interests and responsibility of stewards taxpayers dollars.
▶ 2:15:03Soon it will be our job to codify that to make it permanent. Uh I think when we talk about responsibilities and shifting responsibilities inside of our departments, Mr. Jeffrey, I wanted to ask you, there have been discussions about making the Department of Homeland Security responsible for overseas visa operations instead of the state. This is a critical matter especially in my constituency which is about 14% Indian diaspora, about 40% minorities, many who have family who come in and out of the United States.
▶ 2:15:32I just want to make sure that when we ensure the Department of Homeland Security takes over that they are prepared to do so without any uh problems in the transition. Do you think that's possible? I can't get into the details of who they would have as a basic principle. However, they own the policies. They work with Congress to develop our overall immigration policy.
▶ 2:15:58the immigration and naturalization act is under their purview and thus I think they should have people in the field who are doing that just like other agencies have people in the field. A critical uh rationale for that, Congressman, is that this usually doesn't involve uh high level countryto- country discussions because every country treats who comes in and out of its uh country as its own business. And for example, you may be issuing visas in Ecuador.
▶ 2:16:26The Ecuadorian government isn't going to be calling you all of the time to uh uh protest what you're doing or not doing. Uh so you don't have the same level of diplomatic involvement. That is usually the litmus test for me of whether the state department and an embassy uh should manage that through this uh state department officers there or whether we should have other people out there. So in other words, we'll be able to execute this without losing any abilities or or time uh but make it a little bit safer for the American people.
▶ 2:16:58Um the devil is always in the details on any administrative change. uh they always bring with them turmoil in the short run. In the long run, the question is, is it a more rational way of applying uh our resources and our focus? That's a function that isn't central to protecting the American people uh in terms of uh threats from abroad. Well, actually, it is.
▶ 2:17:28I'm sorry, but it is um a very important mission, but it is one again that's technical in nature and that follows very specific laws again that DHS, not the State Department, puts out. Okay, great. Mr. Hail, million-dollar question for you. Based on your experience, what specific changes can we make to the State Department through this reauthorization bill that would have the biggest positive impact on our national security and diplomacy?
▶ 2:17:58I know that's a big question, but if you can hone it down to one, what is the one big bite we can take out of this that would make us Insist uh that the foreign service actually goes back to basics. whatever organizational chart you look at, you know, is going to reflect certain transitory values, but the foreign service has to do its basic core function of diplomacy.
▶ 2:18:22And so, as you write this authorization bill, I would ask you again, as I said at the beginning, to be persistent and not just, you know, once you've written a bill, you're done. It's also about the continued engagement to make sure the foreign service actually has the training and the skills and the leadership needed to fulfill whatever mandates you've given the authoriz through the authorization process.
▶ 2:18:42And I would say the biggest to get really to your question to me the biggest gap right now that I see when you look down the horizon that we're not ready for is the growing importance of science and technology in the work of diplomacy. We're never going to be scientists. We're never going to be, you know, that person. But we have to have much greater fluency in the substance of science at large. I'm talking about everything from cyber to pandemics than is the case today.
▶ 2:19:11As a member of cyber on h as a member of science space technology and as a member of foreign affairs, I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for that summary. We didn't even coordinate. With that, I yield. Mr. Mr. Thank you, Representative McCormack. Representative Stanton. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Our goal as a committee should be to make sure the State Department is efficient and effective in driving US foreign policy.
▶ 2:19:35And I'd hope to have a frank, serious and informed conversation here today about where we should be doubling down on our strategic investments and where we could do away with bureaucratic bloat. But then last week, Secretary Rubio unilaterally announced a drastic reorganization of the State Department without any input from the United States Congress. It's part of a troubling pattern of this administration, sidelining or completely going around the co-equal legislative branch and the people we represent.
▶ 2:20:05While there's no question that American foreign policy has made serious mistakes over the decades, in nearly every case, those failures were made worse because administrations hid the truth from Congress or they rushed decisions before the American people could weigh in. For all the Trump's administration's talk about avoiding the foreign policy failures of the past, it's charging full speed into that same pattern.
▶ 2:20:29On the anniversary of the fall of Saigon, we should be learning from some of America's most painful foreign policy disasters, not repeating conditions that caused them. This reorganization is just the latest blow to the tools of American soft power, diplomacy, development, humanitarian leadership that have helped counter threats from Russia, Iran, and China for decades.
▶ 2:20:52that have boosted the Arizona economy by attracting foreign tourists, industry giants, and the best and brightest foreign students. That have reduced the flow of fentanyl by coordinating law enforcement across countries. That have helped reduce migration by helping people stay in their home countries instead of overwhelming our southern border, even beyond what's already happening. No global challenge lends itself to quick or easy solutions.
▶ 2:21:18But each of them demand principled, consistent American leadership. Right now, the most dangerous lie we can indulge is that if we if disentangle ourselves from the global economy, end our humanitarian commitments, and withdraw from our strategic alliances, that will somehow return America to greatness. It won't. America's interests are global. Arizona's interests are global. and our security and prosperity depend on the strength of our alliances.
▶ 2:21:48Messiah, why is engaging with Congress important? Not just from a constitutional perspective, but from a practical one. Well, I think as uh one of my um panelists mentioned earlier, it it keeps the work of the State Department grounded with the will of the American people, but it also um that consultative process, what Secretary Blinken often called, you know, being present at the takeoff, not just the landing with respect to policies, I think it produces better outcomes.
▶ 2:22:18And when you look at, you know, US humanitarian and human rights policy and the through line, the continuity, you know, it's built upon one bipartisan initiative after the other, whether it's the US refugee act of 1980 or the global Magnitzky act of 2016, and we've talked about the trafficking uh victims protection act, the international religious freedom act.
▶ 2:22:44Um, I seriously doubt that the Department of State, which I served proudly for most of my adult life, would have come up with those initiatives on it on its own without the leadership and the direction from the US Congress. Follow-up question. Do cuts of the kind proposed by Secretary Rubio signal an understanding of what is required to effectively compete with China, Russia, Iran, and other adversaries?
▶ 2:23:12I don't see that strategy in what has been presented so far. And you know I'll I'll give you a small example. Uh in addition to being a an under secretary, I was the US special coordinator for Tibetan issues. Now this is a a role in which uh we've had decades of bipartisan support. It is supporting preservation of the unique religious, cultural, linguistic tra traditions of the Tibetan people.
▶ 2:23:38But it's also about preventing a certain PRC effort to co-opt the succession of his holiness the Daly Lama. Tibet is considered a core issue for the CCP. It is a a focus of attention where the repression has taken on the enormity of over a million children in government uh forced re-education so-called boarding schools. The future of that position is completely unclear on that org chart.
▶ 2:24:08We were a small office. We were able to rally greater international support, devote uh attention to an issue that is coming to the four with the Dalai Lama turning 90 this year. If we walk away from roles like this, it is literally a free giveaway to the CCP. That's a very powerful answer. I ran out of time, so with that, I'll yield back. Mr.
▶ 2:24:31Chairman, thank you, Representative Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and want to for holding this hearing today and for your efforts to reauthorize the State Department long overdue task and despite Secretary Rubio's excellent leadership. The State Department is in desperate need of reauthorization between budgetary constraints and overlapping objectives.
▶ 2:24:57The department clearly needs Congress to undertake this belated process. Guam is at the forefront of many defense related conversations. But it's important to recognize our role in other sectors of international relations. I want to commend the Guam Visitors Bureau and the Guam Economic Development Authority for serving as part of America's face in the Pacific.
▶ 2:25:19While these local agencies work tirelessly to promote positive international relations, I'm glad these committees seek to reauthorize the State Department because there are many areas of US diplomacy to improve. One of the problems we must address is the reform of foreign assistance programs. This February, the committee explored options to enhance the role of US assistance in US aid. The conclusion was obvious.
▶ 2:25:47Cut the wasteful funds and keep the strategic valuable parts. As we contend with China, reauthorizing the office of foreign assistance, global partnership and the development finance corporation is imperative to enhance US soft power. Similarly, the reauthorization will strengthen US foreign policy from an economic perspective.
▶ 2:26:10During an East Asian and Pacific subcommittee round table, it became evident that the state department is under man in the economic sphere. Without a doubt, developing relationships with other countries through economic tools can make the US presence in the region more visible and effective. This also fosters mutual beneficial relations while creating opportunities for the US private sector, allowing Americans to feel the positive effects of our diplomatic efforts.
▶ 2:26:40Ambassador Hill, considering China's massive belt and road initiative, how do you evaluate the current move by the administration to scale back these programs and the workforce? Based on your experience as a career ambassador, what would be the most effective framework to plan, implement, and access foreign assistance programs under the Secretary of State?
▶ 2:27:05Well, we definitely need to make sure that we have the resources and manpower needed in order to deal with the Chinese uh our competitive relationship with China across the globe. No question about that. Uh I would say though as I said earlier that we also need to measure the impact not by the amount spent but by the uh results that that we have achieved and then fine-tune whatever it is that we're doing.
▶ 2:27:30Our methodology is very different than the Chinese methodology and to try to compete on the same terms that they do. You know, they have a state-directed economy. So they can send whatever resources they want all around the world. No one's going to say no. United States is a private sector economy of course. So no one at the State Department can sit tell you know beel to spend their money. We need to help them enable them make sure that there's a level playing field that the Chinese aren't eating everything up. But that's a little bit different.
▶ 2:27:57And so I wouldn't necessarily say that dollar for dollar is the way to measure it. And you know we also have a you know you know Parkinson's law that the bureaucratic principle that work expands to the number of people you assign to do it right so what is it we want to do is the starting point not how many people are we going to get to do it. And so I would argue you know I'll give you an example out of my career when I was director for Israeli Palestinian affairs um uh you know we had a certain pretty big office. I went overseas.
▶ 2:28:26I came back five years later as the next rung up in the bureaucracy, deputy assistant secretary. My enterprising successor had doubled the size of the office of the Israeli Palestinian Affairs in five years. The work hadn't changed. Our interests hadn't changed. Our programs hadn't changed. They were all busy people doing things. Did we need it? Who is there making the judgment? What are the results? And so I would ask us to always bear that in mind. Thank you. Uh, Ambassador Jeffrey, we just have a few seconds here.
▶ 2:28:56As I previously mentioned, an uh, East Asia Pacific subcommittee round table determined the economic offices at the Department of State have been under manned based on your career at both State Department and National Security Council. Do you agree on this conclusion? What economics tools would you like to see fixed and reauthorized? In terms of the economic side of the state department, um I'm not so sure we have too few offices.
▶ 2:29:23I think that they need to be better integrated into what other parts of the US government uh who have interests abroad from the department of agriculture, USR we talked about earlier. Uh that's something that uh needs to be worked on more. uh that can be through training, that can be through uh uh assignments and other agencies which we try to do but it's very hard in the bureaucracy. Thank you, Ambassador. I'm sorry we ran out of time. We ran out of time but I thank you for your comments. Thank you to the panel.
▶ 2:29:53Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Representative Jackson. Thank you, Chairman. Um thank each one of you for your participation. Uh to Za, I'd have a question regarding our critical health programs such as PEPAR that has been demonstrabably extremely successful, has saved millions of lives. This network has saved millions.
▶ 2:30:16It has provided a strong health system that protects Americans domestically and abroad by detecting and responding to health threats before they can spread as a core American value. But in recent months, we've been seeing we've seen concerning decisions that have undercut America's global strength and put people at risk, whether through staffing shortages, funding delays, or unclear directions amid the evolving State reorganization.
▶ 2:30:43I've gone to several countries most recently, and one of the pains that I have to hear is that there's food in the bins, there is um HIV medicines, there's malaria vaccinations. We have employees that are stuck abroad. They cannot return home, American citizens, and they cannot distribute the food.
▶ 2:31:04Given this overwhelming success of these programs and their vital role in our global strategy, how do we ensure that the integrity, effectiveness, and bipartisan support are not only preserved, but Thank you, Congressman. I think you've uh explained well, you know, what some of the um chaotic impacts have been of the decisions we've seen uh since January. And I would just add on this point that these health programs are not a giveaway.
▶ 2:31:33This is all about the well-being and the security of Americans. You know, if we learned anything from 2019, it is that pandemics know no borders and the impact can be absolutely devastating from an economic and a uh a uh personal perspective.
▶ 2:31:50So again with PEPAR on the cusp of by 2030 uh eliminating HIV AIDS as as a global scourge to pull the rug out of under from lifesaving anti-retroviral programs but also I mean it's come up a few times today with respect to the inherent dignity of all human beings including LGBTQI plus persons the delivery
▶ 2:32:20of these life-saving programs to these communities is absolutely critical in our public health approach. But it isn't just HIV, AIDS, it's EMPOX, it's malaria, it's Ebola, which I was part of an effort uh under the Obama administration that helped contain the spread of Ebola in West Africa through a multi-country US-led effort. So, uh, all I can say is that I hope they take a hard look at the impacts thus far.
▶ 2:32:50They consult with the partners whose own operations have been decimated by this lurching effort, but also with the communities that have benefited from this from ye for years and try to turn it around. Thank you. One other question I would have for you, um, DEIA and fellowship programs. I was startled to see a group of students in my office one morning that had their scholarships cut from their foreign service careers.
▶ 2:33:19And they were primarily African-American and Hispanic students very specifically at one point in my life. I served on a fullbrite program and a scholars program. And so it's just very clear that black students have been cut out, eliminated from careers that have been introduced into foreign service. Um, what have you seen to be the value of such fellowship programs particularly targeting and being inclusive to bring in minority students?
▶ 2:33:47The Fullbrite has not been touched that primarily has a lot of Caucasian students, but the pain and the wrangle scholarships that have been outstanding African-American members, those scholarships have been targeted and cut. Can you please elaborate? Is this consistent with our values? Uh, thank you for raising this. these fellowships which include the Pickering Wrangle, the Pain Fellowships, they have long been um the subject of deeprooted bipartisan support.
▶ 2:34:15And I just want to say these are not DEIA fellowships. These are not quotas. They're all about merit, but they're also about casting a wet the net more widely so that more bright students from across the country, you know, in terms of geographic representation, in terms of different backgrounds, you know, have the opportunity to consider and also the financial support to be able to uh pursue their education at
▶ 2:34:45the undergrad and graduate level and contribute to the department. And over more than two decades, I've seen some incredible diplomats come through that program. I was frankly shocked by the cutoff and the um impact not only on the students involved but on our department as as this has I think been a proven magnet for great talent and excellent diplomats.
▶ 2:35:10Is there I thank you so much for your contribution, your continued support, and under the Students for Fair Admissions Act uh law that was here to by the United States Supreme Court, diversity, equity, and inclusion is legal in the United States armed services. Someone in the administration needs to read the law. If it's good in the war room and if it's good at the United States militarymies, it's good in the classrooms, it's good in the workrooms. So, we need to make sure we enforce the law.
▶ 2:35:38There's nothing wrong about having diversity, e- plurbus ununimum out of many one. There's nothing wrong with having equality, the 14th amendment. There's nothing wrong with having inclusivity and accessibility so people that have different abilities that may need a wheelchair ramp or other things can have access and have inclusion. I thank you for your years of service and continued success. I yield back, chairman. Thank Thank you, Representative Davidson.
▶ 2:36:04Uh thank you chairman uh for this important hearing today and frankly for the alignment with the objectives the administration's laid out which is really basic that America's uh resources should reflect America's interests and when we use the state department it's been shocking uh as a member of Congress to get here and say my suspicions have matched reality that a lot of times our nation's diplomats are working at odds with the people that sent me here to represent them and then when Congress
▶ 2:36:35has weighed in, they've evaded every kind of accountability. So the mission alignment of agencies and bureaus at state are consistently out of line with what they should be doing. So the correction that Secretary of State Rubio and frankly Chairman Mast are trying to accomplish here uh are long overdue. We authorize our defense department year in and year out by uh via the NDAA.
▶ 2:36:59The idea that it's not possible for the State Department to be authorized ever, if not consistently, is absurd. The Constitution only authorizes the government to use the powers delegated to it in law, and unauthorized programs goes against the spirit of our of our nation and our constitution.
▶ 2:37:18So, I look forward to uh the State Department authorization process because the mission of the department is too important to be left to career unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats that simply ride out administration after administration and pursue their own agenda. Um, Mr. Hail, in recent weeks, we've seen proposals circulating from the Rubio State Department outlining a total overhaul of the organizational chart that outlines uh missions and authorizes uh our foreign service corps.
▶ 2:37:48Uh one move that I applaud and I'm looking to codify an upcoming legislation is to move the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement from the Democracy and Human Rights Branch to the International Security Branch of the State Department. It makes so much sense to me. And every year, thousands of Americans uh often tens of thousands of Americans every single year uh lose their lives to the fentanyl crisis. Foreign gang activity, transnational criminal organizations, um are killing American citizens.
▶ 2:38:18In countering this is part of the goal of INL. In 2023, a GAO report concluded uh that quote INL's efforts to implement assistance to Mexico had been hampered by incomplete performance management efforts. End quote. And went on to list issues with corruption, ineffective programming, and numerous systematic issues within democracy and human rights uh management. So moving this org chart to me makes sense.
▶ 2:38:49Uh what say you? I agree. I I think it's a very successful bureau by and large. Um I think it's a very valuable way to to to be functioning and to put our investments into that into that activity. And in my experience, at least in the countries I served in, the partners of INL are primarily in the security arena. So I think it's a much more natural fit. Thank you for that. Um you know, Mr.
▶ 2:39:13Jeffrey, in a 2025 press release, the State Department admitted to breaking the law by funding abortions in Mosamb beek with federal tax dollars. This violates the Helms amendment. Despite openly breaking the law, there have been no serious consequences. The nonprofit or non-government organization funded by government dollars gave back a minimal sum of money and nobody was ever held to account.
▶ 2:39:37At least 21 unborn babies were killed with the complicity of our United States State Department and our tax dollars. They can give back the money, but they can't bring back these lives. Uh we know that it happened. Uh so we must have consequences written into our law. That's why last month I introduced the Aid Accountability Act of 2025. My bill would permanently ban federal funding from organizations that break the law and violate the HELMS amendment.
▶ 2:40:04The bill would also disbar federal service workers uh who who participate in this. Mr. Jeffrey, what stop what steps can we take in Congress to ensure that civil servants and non-government organizations comply with the laws we Well, civil servants are subject to the discipline of the secretary of state.
▶ 2:40:25Uh and the secretary of state has both criminal uh that is law enforcement and inspector general and uh administrative personnel uh tools that he or she can use to pursue anybody who has violated the law. And uh uh in my experience, I have seen this repeatedly used again for those people who violated the law. Uh so I think that it's a question of letting the secretary uh use those authorities that he has. Thank you for that.
▶ 2:40:54And I I hope Secretary Rubio does just that. Obviously, uh, Secretary Blinken wanted it to happen. That's part of why it happened. So, I thank Chairman Mass for this hearing today. We authorize DoD every year. It's time we do it for the State Department and make sure that Americans resources advance America's interests first and foremost. With that, I yield back. Thank you, Representative Davidson. Just to our witnesses, are you all good? You don't need a We still have a number of uh uh representatives to ask questions. Are you all good? You don't need a restroom break or anything? Good.
▶ 2:41:25Let me know if that changes. Happy to say it again, sir. Roll on. All right. Very good. Don't hesitate to let me know if I know we've been going on for a while here. So, uh we're going to go to Representative Schneider. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the witnesses uh for your uh observations and sharing your uh uh insights today.
▶ 2:41:43Uh, and I also want to thank the many men and women serving our nation as diplomats, development workers, and in other critical duties around the world, oftentimes in harm's way, who have dedicated their careers advancing our national interests, protecting our national security. I want them to know that their service and contributions are both recognized and appreciated. I frequently say in this forum that American foreign policy is like a three-legged stool resting on defense, diplomacy, and development.
▶ 2:42:11As former Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis famously said, the less we the less we are investing in diplomacy and development, the more we will have to spend on bullets for defense. I believe that the fundamental mission that we are talking about for the Department of State in that effort to to protect our nation is to promote US interests around the world and to help ensure advance our national security. Do you all agree with that? Disagree with that view? Do I nod for agree? I agree.
▶ 2:42:41Uh but having worked with uh Secretary previously, General Mattis in Fallujah and some other places, I would say what's important is the smart use of diplomacy. Hold that thought. I agree. I think that's the key thing. Not the volume or the amount, but whether it's smart and it plugs into everything else. Thank you, Ambassador.
▶ 2:43:02And I'll I'll say and maybe I'm going on a limb here, but I would argue there's broad agreement on this committee, both Democrats and Republicans, that the State Department needs smart reform and that the many of many of the changes we're talking about are long past due. But reform has to support our national interests and protect our national security.
▶ 2:43:22reform done the wrong way or for the wrong reasons, done impulsively or haphazardly or out of spite and personal vendetta is more likely to put our interests at risk and diminish our national security posture. So my question for the whole panel, does anyone think that what is currently happening at state including mass firings of career professionals with years of experience and expertise and ending the vast majority of programs formerly under USID is strengthening US global leadership or making the United States safer?
▶ 2:43:51Ambassador, I think I'm not ready at this point to judge something that was already uh begun, but we haven't seen the end point. We don't know uh where Secretary Rubio will wind up on reductions of people of money. Uh he's going to come before this committee. I think you'll have an opportunity to press him on that question. Uh but again, uh there's nothing wrong with cutting things.
▶ 2:44:21The Clinton administration eliminated almost half of I agree. It's the smart and I focus on the smart ambassador. So So I'm going to fall back on my uh it's got to be smart excuse to evade the question. Ambassador H. I strongly support uh reform and cutting. I think there's a lot that can be pruned back. I agree obviously. I don't know who would disagree in this context anyway about it being done in an intelligent way and thoughtful way.
▶ 2:44:50I also share though there's a level of frustration I because we've all seen this over many decades that when when new teams come into a White House and want to change and reduce government um they get beaten back. They get swallowed by crises and bureaucratic resistance. So I I don't share I wouldn't go about it the way it's being done, but I understand a little bit the impulse to be dramatic. But I think that's why it's so important for this committee with our authority under article one to take the initiative.
▶ 2:45:21Ambassador, I agree. I do not see how what's happened so far is advancing our national interest. And I think how and what you cut is critical. Right. So in my last minute, let me ask some uh rapid fire questions. But uh would countries like China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea see the elimination or downgrade of the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor as a smart move to the advance of the United States, or as a move benefiting their own national agendas and just a yes or no answer?
▶ 2:45:49Absolutely, the Well, I don't see it being downgraded. I mean, okay. Uh I don't think that's on the top list of things the Chinese are worried about us either doing. advantage because I asked the same question. Would the same country see the elimination or downgrade of the office to monitor and combat trafficking in persons as a smart move to the advantage of the United States or is a move benefiting their own national It benefits our adversaries.
▶ 2:46:19Okay. Would Russia see the elimination or downgrade of US programs that document war crimes and support civil societies in Eastern Europe as a smart move to the advantage of the United States or a move benefiting their agendas? Ambassador Jeff, again, that's not one of the things that will move the dial on Russia's uh reaction to us. It's all Does it benefit us or benefit them? Does it benefit us or benefit them to downgrade programs to document war crimes and support civil society?
▶ 2:46:47A lot of problems with how we define war crimes and how that's used. All right. And I'm over time, but I'll give the last two quick answer. Yes or no? Uh, I think we should be doing it, but I don't think it's changes Russian behavior. I think it does have an impact and the Office of Global Criminal Justice has helped realtime accountability occur in Ukraine with convictions of Russians for war crimes. Thank you. Uh, so Mr.
▶ 2:47:14Chair, I look forward to working with you on this committee to try to find smart smart reform that moves us forward, that protects our interests, keeps Americans safe around the world and here at home. I yield back. We will look forward to seeing your amendments, Mr. Schneider. Uh, Representative Biggs, you are recognized. Thank you, Chairman Mast, and I'm grateful to our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 2:47:34So, as a member um both of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the Science, Space, and Technology Committee, I recognize the undeniable intersection between our diplomatic efforts and our activities in the space domain.
▶ 2:47:50The United States stands at a pivotal moment where our leadership in space is linked to our economic vitality, our national security, as well as our scientific progress and our overall standing on the global stage.
▶ 2:48:07Given this reality, a central aspect of our reauthorization review must be the State Department's strategic role in shaping and implementing the US foreign policy concerning the space arena. In this context, the expertise and insights residing outside of government represent an invaluable resource.
▶ 2:48:34Effectively harnessing these perspectives is not merely beneficial. It's essential for crafting forwardlooking space related foreign policy. Therefore, um I would like to direct my first question to Ambassador What specific strategies does the State Department, particularly through the Office of Space Affairs currently employ integrate the
▶ 2:49:04perspectives of non-governmental actors into both the formulation and the execution of US foreign policy within the space domain? It's a great uh question, Congresswoman, but I would like to defer to uh Secretary Hail, who I think did more with space when he was under secretary than certainly I did working on Syria. Is that okay with you? That's great. Thank you.
▶ 2:49:30Well, thank you very much, Jim, but I don't know that I did have much of anything to do with it. Uh it's it's in my mind it's one of those categories though of the emerging activities that backward thinking backward-looking charts authorization bills of the past or the absence of them is an impediment to dealing with the new challenges. And so that's exactly why uh what we're talking about today is so valuable and so important is to make sure we're actually resource for the new threats.
▶ 2:49:58I don't know the answer to your question about how effective we are in integrating with NOS's. I would say it's you know State Department is never going to be the lead on space. So we're we're a supporting actor. So I my if I was in charge I would say that our role should be to make sure that we are working with our other inter national international partners to make sure our space policies are being effectively implemented and finding allies in that regard and spotlighting the threats and challenges that obviously our competitors uh pose.
▶ 2:50:29Thank you. Well, I'll I'll go to a more general question then, and I'll be happy to have an answer from either of you, but what um concrete steps can Congress and the State Department take to more effectively and proactively integrate non-govern um non-governmental expertise directly into the office of uh space affairs for foreign policy.
▶ 2:50:58Having ducked your last question, I'll try to take that. Uh, and then, uh, Isra wants to do it too. Uh, we work at every level with NOS's. They're a major source of the thing we're always out there searching for, which is information. They're a major source of influence uh, on our host governments.
▶ 2:51:20uh we have to be careful because we don't want to be interfering in internal affairs although in many ways we do but uh uh so I would say that there's a very healthy relationship uh it's got some tension between uh US embassies and the state department and NOS's both American and other countries because they're major players on the international scene. Thank you.
▶ 2:51:45And congresswoman, I would just uh thank you for highlighting the contributions and roles of non-governmental actors in international space policy and we are facing you know a global closure of civil society space that affects academic experts universities as well. So I think the state department maintaining those channels to non-governmental actors recognizing this is absolutely 21st century diplomacy is essential. Thank you. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:52:15Thank you, Representative Biggs. Representative Johnson. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. You know, I appreciate that you are trying to follow in the footsteps of ranking member Meeks and reauthorize the State Department. But this process is being done is not being done in a transparent or bipartisan way.
▶ 2:52:35An org chart alone does not tell us how offices will be staffed and how technical expertise will be retained, whether budget and resource allocations will reflect the mergings of offices and restructuring of foreign assistance, or other whether the remaining offices will have the independence and authority to do a good work regardless of which politicians are in office. But Republicans have refused to hold even one hearing to date with Secretary Rubio to explain to the American people why they are dismantling vital agencies and programs.
▶ 2:53:06I understand from today that uh he hopefully will come to testify before this committee and I hope in fact that that actually happens. The administration has already slashed our inter agency regardless of congressional authorization or input and reportedly plans to downsize our global presence by closing dozens of embassies and consulates.
▶ 2:53:27This reorganization would have a dramatic US national security implications constitutes an unjustified seismic shift in the US foreign policy enterprise and includes many proposed measures that would be illegal and without congressional action. Let me be clear. What has been proposed by Republicans in this administration would make us less safe and risk American lives.
▶ 2:53:49The State Department, USAD and its dis diplomatic corps have been the backbone of American foreign policy, advancing US interests, strengthening alliances, and responding to global crisis. Democrats have never shied away from conversations about improving the existing system. But slashing their workforces, closing embassies, consulates, and missions, and dismantling key bureaus is reckless and cripples our inability to conduct diplomacy, counter China and Russia, and maintain our way of life.
▶ 2:54:20The administration, the administration must engage with Congress, including testifying before us to explain and defend these plans to restructure the country's premier diplomatic agencies. Otherwise, this is not a serious or thoughtful process and Democrats will not rubber stamp halfbaked dangerous challenges. You know, I'm also I'm very concerned about just the lack of stability.
▶ 2:54:43I believe one of you testified in response to another member's question just the ongoing nature of of administration to administration to administration and I'm very concerned about what that does to the role of US stability in the world with is how people view us as a partner and are we less stable are we less reliable can they not are we subject to ch such broad changing whims um and it makes us I think an unreliable partner And it
▶ 2:55:13it's very concerning to me. And also I think this process of reorganization is is appropriate. It's something we should absolutely do in a thoughtful reasoned manner. But what's happened is the administration has taken a wrecking ball to our foreign policy and then we're supposed to come back and take a look at it in the review mirror. And that's not how the process is designed to work.
▶ 2:55:40The process should be we should have people come in and testify regarding various programs and let us determine have they fulfilled their mission? Did they never achieve the intended purpose? Have have they ex exceeded their authority or whatever the case may be and then this committee should be able to go through and decide and give directives. These are the programs that Congress chooses to fund. Rather than that the administration has just obliterated them all expecting the this committee to rubber stamp it in full.
▶ 2:56:08So my question to you is what would be the practical impact of a nearly 50% cut to the department's budget request by the administration on the state department's programming and personnel? I think we're close on time. So Dr. Zia, I would just repeat the point I made earlier, Congresswoman. It it doesn't add up. And you know a 15% domestic staffing cut combined with a 5050% operational cut.
▶ 2:56:35It's very hard for me to imagine how you know this conversation has been about meeting 21st century challenges streamlining decisionmaking. Yes, absolutely. To be able to be more agile, more impactful for the American people. Um there's a lot of explaining to do how this could possibly happen with it isn't even attenuated. That is a right that is an cut and chop to US diplomatic operations.
▶ 2:57:04And we're talking about things like oversight which are absolutely essential. How do you do that all with far fewer salaries paid and operations in place when our adversaries are in maximum overdrive? Right. Thank you. I'm out of time. Thank you so much and I yield back. Thank you, Representative Johnson. I know it was before your time.
▶ 2:57:27You're a new member here, but there has been extensive opportunity to debate the merits of programs and unfortunately we've had person after person from the previous administration come here literally lie to Republicans and Democrats to our faces about the programs that they said they weren't doing that they were doing. No, they don't exist. No, these slide decks don't exist. No, we weren't expanding atheism in Nepal or in other countries.
▶ 2:57:53And then we would get the phone calls after the hearing saying, "Ah, sorry, we were wrong about that. We were in fact doing that." And uh, you know, sorry that we spent the last however long denying these things that we were doing it. Um, but never apologizing and never uh, you know, never saying this is something that we shouldn't have been doing. This is not true diplomacy. These are just the facts of what has taken place prior to your arrival here.
▶ 2:58:17Uh, and it's a lot of what brings us to to where we are today is the fact that there has not been oversight at the State Department and there has not been a comprehensive state department reauthorization unfortunately uh which has really allowed these programs to continue whether it's atheism in Nepal or drag shows in Ecuador or transgender job fairs in Bangladesh or uh you know take your pick of the thousands of programs that unfortunately uh the state department is wasting American dollars on uh Representative
▶ 2:58:48Lawler, floor is yours. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank you for holding this hearing today and certainly as this committee gets about uh its important work uh as chair of the Middle East and North Africa subcommittee and uh with oversight over Mr. uh I certainly am uh committed to and focused on uh the importance of a State Department reauthorization.
▶ 2:59:13Uh I think the fact is uh this has been a failure on the part of Congress for many years uh in both parties to actually reauthorize uh the work of the state department to uh provide the level of uh oversight that is necessary. Uh and sadly prior administrations have refused to cooperate.
▶ 2:59:37uh you know we've had multiple hearings where we have asked uh administration officials uh for information uh we had Samantha Power here for instance uh as head of USAID and asked her numerous questions and no answers provided uh about expenditures uh and programs that USID was uh conducting itself.
▶ 3:00:01So uh this hearing is uh immensely valuable but obviously the work that we are undertaking uh is important. Right now the foreign service institute is not a degree granting institution unlike many of its uh service related counterparts.
▶ 3:00:20uh what would be the benefits of uh accrediting FSI and why has this not previously been pursued and and what challenges might in fact uh persist here. Leave it open to any of you to engage. Uh I'll start with that. I never thought of that as a um and of course the military does do that with their uh programs but they're very different programs. the command and general staff schools, the war colleges.
▶ 3:00:49These are year-long programs. They're very um academic. They're very focused on the core skills of the profession. Uh the Foreign Service Institute, aside from its superb long-term language training, which is in a separate category, basically does uh short tradecraftraft courses.
▶ 3:01:13In fact, my main criticism with it is other than the language training, most of it could be also offered to the Department of Transportation. It's all about processy managerial get along with each other stuff. There's almost no training in the diplomatic uh trade craft. There's almost no uh diplomatic history. the other things if you go to any military uh college or would you push would you push to actually uh ensure that it engages in that?
▶ 3:01:44Yes, I was actually uh did a six-month course once when we had it briefly a model on the military uh 40 years ago. We then got rid of it. If we look took a look at how the military does it and those kinds of courses that build long-term expertise in our profession, certainly they should be I think the importance of language training for our diplomats who will be interfacing with their foreign counterparts daily cannot be understated.
▶ 3:02:13Uh foreign language training is one of the most crucial aspects of FSI's mission as you mentioned. How thorough is the foreign language training at FSI and what can they do better to better equip our foreign service officers? Uh I think the language uh program there is excellent. Um, I'm sure everything can use a little bit of reform and and uh and being making sure it's up to date. Um, but I think it's one of the best things FSI does.
▶ 3:02:42Uh, I would just not take your time, but I would follow up on what Jim said and where we I think FSI falls down is making, you know, not giving us necessarily in the foreign service the skills we need to do tomorrow's job. Uh, tends to be backward-looking and, uh, the management stuff is very weak.
▶ 3:03:00uh most people in encounters with FSI during the course of their career is little sort of computerized modules on things that are important but routine like how to how to keep your security you know your your computer safe from on security grounds and how to make sure you're living up to ethics rules whereas we need to understand better our core function of Mr. Mr.
▶ 3:03:21H, can you just describe how the Bureau of Counterterrorism's efforts integrate with broader national security strategies uh led by the National Security Council or other agencies? Yeah, I think um you know it was it was founded in the early 70s. Uh it's one of those examples of an important international activity in which the State Department doesn't actually have the lead. Uh our domestic agencies uh have that and they have their own relationships overseas which are very important.
▶ 3:03:50intelligence and and law enforcement and and security. Uh but it's very important that we have someone who's helping to coordinate that, make sure our embassies are uh on point, doing everything possible to defeat terrorism and that they're at the table in their inter agency discussions here in Washington. And I think they're well staffed to do that. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Lawler. Mrs. I was told that you had a hard stop at 1 p.m. I don't know if that's something that you you need to take. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I I can stay an additional 15 minutes. Thank you.
▶ 3:04:19We appreciate your testimony today. Thank you, uh, Representative Costa. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Um, the efforts to um make reform uh and to work together in a bipartisan effort, I think, is laudable and and certainly uh I would encourage that.
▶ 3:04:42Um the State Department reauthorization uh though that is being contemplated at this time seems to be unilateral lacking any sort of um input uh or input that I can determine uh from the Congress. Um we haven't passed a State Department uh as my colleagues have already noted in previous comments when we have had reforms. um significantly.
▶ 3:05:09They've been in the uh reauthor reauthorization the national defense uh bill uh which we tend to have bipartisan support. Um and that's included efforts in cyber diplomacy act which we heard about uh in Europe which is more critical now than ever. We noted that uh in what occurred in the last day or two in Portugal and and Spain and France.
▶ 3:05:33Um, Secretary Rubio said he is reversing decades of bloated bureaucracy, but I think um, without the input and I think there's a lot of bipartisan goodwill here if we would just work together u that would deal with some of the practices that they would like to reform.
▶ 3:05:51I want to ask a a question and of course chairman former chairman McCall I think indicated that as well and talked about the hurdles that we face in the house and the senate but ambassador za the bureau of democracy and human rights and labor champions of American values that include the rule of law and individual rights that bring us safer and stronger and more prosperous states.
▶ 3:06:12Having you previously worked in at DRL, can you tell us why foreign assistance that supports human rights and the rule of law is so important for our own well-being and uh and for trying to maintain stability around the world? Absolutely. Uh thank you, Congressman. Uh the rule of law is is the basis for order and stability in in partner countries.
▶ 3:06:36And uh you know I would point out here that DRL has played a very important role in supporting um non-governmental organizations um civil society champions USAD as well but we've talked a bit about the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement.
▶ 3:06:53They have also played a very important role on the issue of access to justice because in many societies um some of the uh vulnerabilities that violent extremists are able to exploit is the inability of government institutions to deliver justice to deliver the rule of law. You know, as President Reagan once said, if we're going to be that beacon of light on the shining hill, uh we need to stand up for human rights, as President Carter has also indicated during his presidency.
▶ 3:07:24Um Ambassador Jeff, you led the United States in a diplomatic effort and engagement in Syria crisis was talked about earlier in this morning and defeating ISIS. Um uh why was humanitarian assistance such a key part of your diplomatic engagement and with risks do we run in conflicted areas where the US fails to deliver life-saving aid? Um in your view? It was essential.
▶ 3:07:50uh we uh continued aid with a secretary waiver because it involved at the time uh Hayat al-S sham which is now led by the guy who's uh the prime minister of the president rather of Syria because they were on the terrorist list but nonetheless it was so important there were three million internally displaced people right along the Turkish border if they had been pushed into Turkey and on into Europe we would had another crisis like we saw in Europe in 2015.
▶ 3:08:21The humanitarian assistance was absolutely essential to keeping them there. It was also essential to stabilizing the front militarily in that campaign. Likewise, the assistance we were providing to our Kurdish-led uh uh battle uh allies in the northeast of the country fighting the Islamic State but also denying terrain to Assad, Iran, and Russia. So this was extremely useful uh and it was very very effectively carried out by USAD.
▶ 3:08:51Well, thank you and and um you know the different tools in our diplomatic toolbox I think we can use uh whether we refer to it as smart power or soft power. The the fact of the matter is is that Mr. Chairman, I would urge you to try to enjoin in a bipartisan effort to include that we don't abdicate our role in terms of our checks and balances in this this effort to reorganize.
▶ 3:09:16Something that just bugs me right here recently is these cuts to a historical tool that we used called Voice in America and other efforts to reach out to parts of the world. For the life of me, I can't understand why eliminating that makes any sense. Any of you care to comment? I would just comment here, Congressman.
▶ 3:09:35We haven't talked about the role of Radio Free Asia, which uh reaches uh hundreds of millions of uh listeners particularly in closed societies like China and in multiple languages. And again the abrupt cut off of that information which is penetrating societies where censorship you know a government firewall controls all information. It is really an incalculable loss.
▶ 3:10:06Would you all agree? I agree in the case cited where the the platform is the only means to get the alternative information and and into those closed societies. I don't believe that that model works in areas such as the Middle East where the problem isn't um penetrating those countries today. They have very active media platforms which we can participate in.
▶ 3:10:34And so I think it's very cost-effective to make sure that we are making sure that US officials and American voices are heard on those programs. But we don't necessarily need to replicate the model used against authoritarian totalitarian countries. Actually I was a liazison officer to radio free Europe radio liberty at the time during the cold war. It was absolutely essential.
▶ 3:10:56whether it is now essential today given the uh as David mentioned earlier the variety of different uh platforms that information is flowing around the world. I think what the administration any administration needs to do is what is message define and determine that and then figure out what is the best way to get it out there. I'm not so sure it's VA. I'm not so sure it's rated for Europe. What I am sure is we need to get a message out.
▶ 3:11:26I agree. Thank you for your service to our country and uh my time is expired. Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Costa. And I will assure uh the committee again and you as well because I know you were speaking about it. State Department reauthorization, we are looking forward to being an extremely member-driven process.
▶ 3:11:45uh all of the members on both sides will have every opportunity to offer uh their amendments, their suggestions, their ideas uh and have the debate about what should be prioritized or not prioritized and we look forward to your input as well. I look forward to that. Thank you very much. Uh Representative Ka, uh thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 3:12:08I am very interested in hearing how Congress can play an increased role in foreign policy by regularly authorizing State Department functions so that its mission and its structure are clear. Back in February at a hearing held by this committee, I discussed with former Representative Ted Yoho how important it is to have bipartisan consistency and strategy in US foreign policy.
▶ 3:12:33And I believe that is important that uh America is a key leader in health innovation and I believe that is an important foreign policy tool that the state department should use to America's benefit. A key program that I want to focus on today is PEPAR. Mr. Jeffrey and Mr.
▶ 3:12:52Hail as Congress in this committee reauthorizes the State Department, what specific authorities or institutional reforms should we include to ensure that PEPAR's mission of global HIV AIDS epidemic control continues? And additionally, how can we use the authorizing legislation to strengthen PEPAR's effectiveness within the State Department as well as to align it with larger US foreign policy objectives?
▶ 3:13:19Uh I was in the National Security Council when we started PEPAP back almost 20 years ago and it's one of the proudest things we've done. Uh the first point is it should continue. The second point is that it is not only of major humanitarian uh success but also for global uh health systems ability to react to epidemics and such. It is really really effective as well.
▶ 3:13:44Uh I'm not so sure how it feeds into uh soft power, hard power, but that's not the point. Uh it should be supported by Congress if necessary by uh specific legislation. Thank Thank Mr. Hail. Yes, I agree with that and I think it's perhaps most useful to cast it in terms of uh protecting our nation. Um you know, better to fight Ebola in Uganda than in Milwaukee. So following up on that, M Mr.
▶ 3:14:13Hale from your experience uh how can we improve uh PEPFAR's effectiveness as its functions are consolidated and what can Congress do to ensure that the department is able to manage PEPAR's large operational footprint? Yeah, I'm not an expert on PEPFAR. So, you know, I hesitate to I can't give a detailed answer. I would want to make sure that as it's transitioned to the State Department that the State Department is set up to to manage it.
▶ 3:14:41Um, and that may in mean it doesn't look very different than where what it looks like today. And Jim touched on a very important point about all this, which is, you know, when I became under secretary, I I was surprised to see the amount of assistance going to African countries. Uh, and when you dig down into it, you see that for the most part, it's about building health infrastructures that do not exist. And without that, you know, it's not just shots in the arm. you you have to build a structure that's going to be durable to to promote these these health strategies.
▶ 3:15:13Um so given PEPAR's track record and one of the most successful US foreign aid projects uh Mr. Hail and um Mr. Jeffrey uh what lessons from PEPAR's operational model should Congress seek to preserve as foreign assistance programs are restructured within the State Uh it was set up in a quite uh focused, targeted, administratively
▶ 3:15:43lean way with very specific goals that were concrete and understandable and a way to measure success uh among other things by the number of people whose lives were saved and uh uh people who uh were not uh did not succumb to uh HIV. Uh so I think those are the uh guidelines.
▶ 3:16:05Uh again uh totally aside from the humanitarian side of it, from the administrative side of it, I think it was a very effective program and I hope that with all of this reorganization uh we find a way to continue that program and at the same level of competence. I concur. Okay. And so given PAPFAR's role in strengthening diplomatic partnerships and stabilizing fragile states, Mr. Jeffrey and and Mr. Mr.
▶ 3:16:34Hail, uh, how should Congress seek to accomplish PEPAR's mission while also streamlinizing streamlining State Department activities? uh, ensure that encourage, ensure, whatever verb we use that the State Department doesn't neglect this as they move it around. But the one thing I would raise not an objection to but a question to is we we can't oversell these things.
▶ 3:17:01This program deserves to be continued for its humanitarian and as Dave and I both mentioned uh protecting of Americans from uh epidemics abroad. Whether it buys us all of that much support in these countries, whether it feeds into our larger foreign policy, I'm not so sure there's a lot of evidence to that. It doesn't matter.
▶ 3:17:23It's it's worthwhile in and of itself, but we shouldn't oversell a lot of these things as buying us a seat at the table that we otherwise wouldn't get. I think that's right. Uh, thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Kaine. Miss Z, did you want to take that chance to Okay, very good. Representative Kam logger Dove. Uh, thank you.
▶ 3:17:50Uh, I want to thank the chair and I want to thank our ranking member. I also want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I want to thank you, Miss Z, for extending your time. Um, I given how massive this state proposal is. However, I would much rather be talking to Secretary Rubio. It is his proposal. Um, and he should be here walking us through it.
▶ 3:18:14Um I do agree with the chair that authorizing the state department is an important function of this committee and reflects the critical role of Congress in shaping our foreign policy. But it is supposed to be a collaborative process. You know Congress and the administration input not dictation.
▶ 3:18:35Uh Doge and MAGA extremists have hijacked a bipartisan set of foreign policy priorities to advance a fringe agenda that would never receive bipartisan support. A reorg that acts as the valuebased bureaus at the State Department is a capitulation to the MAGA culture warriors who view democracy and human rights and the rule of law as part of a woke liberal agenda, not as fundamental American
▶ 3:19:05values that distinguish us from our adversaries and make us a leader on the world stage. The arbitrary 15% personnel cuts throughout the department are further proof that re rubio's reorganization is a bending of the knee to Musk and Doge and has little to do with improving the department's efficiency or effectiveness.
▶ 3:19:27This slash and burn approach to our diplomatic toolbox reflected in this reorg will have real repercussions for Americans across the country. Red and blue districts nationwide are gearing up to host the upcoming FIFA World Cup and Summer Olympics. And I'm I'm the these issues are passionate to me because they're going to be happening in my district as well.
▶ 3:19:49And the billions in projected economic impact will disappear if this administration cripples the State Department's ability to process spectators visas by shuttering diplomatic missions abroad or cutting the department's budget by 50%. The question isn't going to be who will want to come here. The question will be who will be able to come here to attend as fans, as spectators, as participants, as athletes.
▶ 3:20:18The harm to my district and everyday Americans of this reckless approach to foreign policy is why I introduced the Defending American Diplomacy Act. My bill would require congressional input and approval if the executive branch wants to undertake a major reorg like this. And it shouldn't be partisan to say that Congress has the constitutional authority to exercise oversight and will do it um to make changes like this to our foreign policy toolbox. It should be a nobrainer.
▶ 3:20:47Many of us went on Kodell's during this past recess. Many of us in our visits with other countries probably heard the same thing that the United States is leaving a vacuum that China is rushing to fill. I know when I was talking to our international partners, they kept saying the same thing around about the United States. Promises made, promises unkept.
▶ 3:21:13And it is so simple, I think, and easy to counter the PRC's influence by helping to feed malnourished children, by supporting educational programming, by providing life-saving medicine. Small things that make a big difference. And they are real instruments in our diplomatic toolbox. And China is waiting for us to leave. They're saying, "Give me all that.
▶ 3:21:37We can do all of that and even more." So, Miss Za, in the few seconds that I have left, in your time at state, have you ever seen a major reorg like this uh take place with zero consultation from Congress? Uh, no, I have not. And I was a young diplomat back in the day during the Clinton administration where reinventing government, you know, significantly shifted State Department responsibilities, absorbed US, IIA, and the like.
▶ 3:22:07Um I I appreciate your underscorings the areas where US values and interests intersect. And I would just add a few more um longstanding um responsibilities of the department such as supporting democratic reformers, supporting free and independent media, supporting free and fair elections, but also new areas supporting rights respecting technology.
▶ 3:22:34We've tal we touched a bit on the creation of the Bureau of Digital and Cyber Policy. They people may not realize it's a very close partner of the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, which has forged for over a decade policy leadership on internet freedom that directly counters Russian and Chinese efforts to create closed systems, remake the international order to their advantage.
▶ 3:23:00So the strategic value is not in conflict with our own values. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back. Thank you, Representative. And uh I would also, you know, inform the committee that there has been extensive consultation between the administration and uh members of the committee and members of the house. Just truthfully, not many members of the Democrat side of this committee. And that's not meant to be a snide comment.
▶ 3:23:28It's simply reflective of the fact that the last four years were spent with an administration that wasn't talking about the things that they were doing. They were lying about the things that they were doing. And even when this administration came in, they were looking to literally burn and shred proof of what they were doing uh at State Department and USAD.
▶ 3:23:49So I don't think it should be surprising to many that yes, a large amount of the consultation that's going on is not going on with the people that were cutting the checks to do drag shows in Ecuador or transgender musicals or transgender plays or transgender operas or any of the uh the other things. So, it's not that there's not consultation going on. It's just that there's not consultation going on with those that were lying and denying these programs.
▶ 3:24:19Uh, I will now go to Representative Shrief. Uh, thank you, Chairman Mast. Um, and thanks to our witnesses. Uh, we may not have the Secretary of State, but we have some terrifically distinguished ambassadors with us. And M. Zia, thanks for, uh, spending a little extra time with us. Uh I'm a new member from Indiana. Uh and try to keep up with this hearing as we're bouncing back with Mark up across the hallway in TNI. Um a plug for my state.
▶ 3:24:51Um we've been blessed in Indiana uh with uh with egg, corn, beans, pork, but there's more than corn in Indiana. We're a big pharmaceutical uh producing state. liies in our our our state. Aircraft, engines, automotive, uh manufacturing is central to our economy. And we've also produced some some talent in this space.
▶ 3:25:16Um I interned a lifetime ago for Senator Luger out here whom some of you you two may have worked with. Uh Lee Hamilton was my congressman uh back when I was in high school and uh I visited with him two weeks ago. So we've got some bipartisan talent uh and a history of that coming coming out of Indiana playing in this space.
▶ 3:25:42Um of course one state's core functions is economic state craft and leveraging America's strength to advance our national interests abroad. is part and partial with what state is all about. This uh initiatives and this 119th Congress have been focused on rightsizing our federal bureaucracy. And yes, that includes the elimination of some ineffective uh functions and programs.
▶ 3:26:12State Department is no exception. Ambassador Jeffrey, in your view, would our American businesses, mine close to home, and more broadly, be better positioned for success in international markets under the current decentralized structure that we have at state today or through a recentralization, a recentralization
▶ 3:26:43of economic authority within the State Department. uh under the previous organization and under the new organization that uh Secretary Rubio has proposed uh you do have a under secretary for economic affairs and you have an energy and an economic bureau under them but that's also a huge responsibility of each of the regional bureaus and the regional bureau assistant
▶ 3:27:13secretary and it's one of the core responsibilities of every ambassador to both promote economic uh integration between Country X and the United States and specifically commercial uh opportunities for American firms. It's something that we believe very much in and I think that the way we've set it up uh is working well.
▶ 3:27:34The one change that I've proposed is that the foreign commercial service, which is out there in the field with us and advising the ambassador on uh how to help American uh businesses get uh deals, uh I think that should be put directly and officially under the Department of State, but beyond that, I wouldn't make any change. All right. Ambassador Hail, um I'm sure you have a perspective on this with your globe trotting career. Yes, I do.
▶ 3:28:03Um, I think overall probably centralization would be the way to go. Um, one of my pet peeves, frankly, is that the foreign commercial service has not really stepped up to the game in most places where I worked. Um, and if you talk to corporate America, I don't think they're very impressed with the performance of our embassies and promoting business as a result. So, if we can give our ambassadors greater uh greater resources in order to help American business overseas, I'm all for it.
▶ 3:28:33And I think that means talking to American business about identifying what it is that they need. The thing an ambassador can do is advocacy. But there's a lot of other work that needs to be done to help corporate America u have an you know an even playing field basically is is uh one of the the goals. The other thing I would make an observation on because I don't think a lot of people pay attention to it is that we have executive directors at the World Bank, um the IMF, the regional banks, they're not very well integrated into our foreign policy team.
▶ 3:29:03They they they really value their independence and I can understand to a degree why they don't want to be dictated to by a number of agencies. But the level of coordination is is really absent beneath the uh seventh floor level at our state department. And the seventh floor principles at the state department don't have the time to give day-to-day guidance when a votes coming up to the World Bank or what. So if we really want to deal with China and these problems, there needs to be better integration at that level as well. Integration ambassadors. Thank you. My time's expired. Mr.
▶ 3:29:33Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Representative Sharief. Representative McBride. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you uh Chairman Mast and of course ranking member Meeks for both of your leadership. And thank you Ambassadors for uh staying with us and allowing us to get to our more junior members. The world is in upheaval. A fact that I believe every member of this committee can probably agree on.
▶ 3:29:57According to armed conflict location and event data, global conflict levels have nearly doubled in the last 5 years. The Council on Foreign Relations predicted that 2025 could be the most dangerous year yet in the 17 years they've conducted surveys on global conflicts to watch. That the current administration has chosen this moment to severely curtail our diplomatic and international development capacity is all the more baffling.
▶ 3:30:26More conflict globally makes the United States less secure, and an evershrinking US presence globally creates an opportunity for China and Russia to fill that vacuum diplomatically, militarily, and economically. I'm committed to working with my colleagues across the aisle to pursue policies that will make Delawarians and all Americans safer, stronger, and more prosperous.
▶ 3:30:48And while we can always do better and while I believe in reforms to modernize our approach over the last 101 days, this administration has le left us less secure and less respected. Throwing out the alliances, organizations, and investments that fostered one of the longest periods of peace between great powers in human history is a tragic I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about how we can empower the State Department and our diplomatic servants around the world to best advance
▶ 3:31:18the interests of American citizens. And I want to I want to focus in on a a case study that I think helps to inform some of these conversations. In 2020, the United Kingdom eliminated their department for international development, merging it into their foreign and commonwealth office. An independent watchdog said that that depleted their capacity for international development. We recently have seen them transfer a large amount of their international development into their defense budgets.
▶ 3:31:47So, Ambassador Jeffrey, I I'm curious your thoughts around lessons learned from the UK experience and how we can make sure that we're protecting international development as a critical tool for us um and avoid what we've seen in the United Kingdom where there has been a depletion with the merger of those two departments in our in their international development capacity. Um, no.
▶ 3:32:13Again, I'm a u fan of putting international development into be it uh the foreign office in the case of the UK, Australia and other places and do it that way or uh as proposed now putting it into the department of state. And the reason is there has to be an alignment of uh the development because regardless of who's doing it, it's always doing some good for someone and therefore it's hard to argue against.
▶ 3:32:42But the point is uh and David has mentioned this several times, what are the effects of it? How do we exploit those effects? How do we build a overall program that uh contributes to the prosperity and uh the peace of the American people? And I think that that's best achieved by putting it into the Department of State.
▶ 3:33:02Now, how you put it into the Department of State, uh, how you preserve the skills that USID was able to deploy, and I've seen them very effectively on the ground, that's a different question. But assuming that that is possible in this world, and it is, I think it would be better to put it in. Yeah, I I I certainly think in a perfect world, in a vacuum, coordination is obviously uh something we should foster, and we should foster it organizationally with reforms.
▶ 3:33:27I'm just very concerned that we will see a replication of what's happened in the United Kingdom where they have found that their international development capacity has diminished. I mean, coordination without actual investment is pointless. Um, and we've seen in the United Kingdom them throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's made it easier for them to deplete their international development budget, move it into defense because it's been merged into these larger budgets.
▶ 3:33:52And I'm fearful that this administration will similarly use a consolidation and sort of an enveloping of of this money into a larger entity as uh a means to eliminating these investments entirely. Final final question I want to ask both of you. In 2017, Secretary Rubio said when he was Senator Rubio, I don't want to see us move towards a foreign policy where human rights only matters when nothing else matters, when something more important isn't standing in our way. End of quote.
▶ 3:34:21I'm curious if you agree with then Senator Rubio's points, Ambassador Hail. Yes. I think advocacy and promoting human rights is a is a as a core element of our foreign policy. Our anytime our foreign policy gets too far away from our values, we go wrong. It doesn't mean we can always accomplish the goal, but we should continue to have engagement of our of our partners across the world on this important topic. Thank you.
▶ 3:34:44Since we're out of time, I'll just say I hope Senator Rubio um is listened to by Secretary Rubio, but I'm unfortunately not particularly optimistic. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative McBride. Uh I'll recognize the vice chair of the committee. He and I have both deferred all of our questions until the end. So, recognize uh Representative Isa. David, we should save the worst for last.
▶ 3:35:09We couldn't have two more distinguished ambassadors here with more regional history in addition to your special assignments, but I'm going to ask a couple of questions that are more about how many years you've watched the State Department than necessarily some of the earlier questions. Um, Ambassador Hail, you you I think did a good job of explaining that Voice of America Radio Free fill in the blanks.
▶ 3:35:35We have everything everywhere as though it works everywhere. The idea that we would make a slimmer targeted one and one that nimblely might go from a place in which the truth cannot be gotten out any other way to another one.
▶ 3:35:52I'm going to throw one question in, not for a long answer, but just for conceptually when you can't get when you can get in, like in the Middle East, finding the ways to get those messages in in a way that they're heard, I'm going to ask rhetorically, is still critical.
▶ 3:36:14The question is, is that disconnected from the State Department or is that integral not only to the State Department but to all the other portions that look overseas, the CIA, the NSA, all these agencies? And if we're going to reinvent radiore free fill-in- thelank, should we reorganize it so that it can in fact target the people in what we modernly, you know, look at in social media and so on as influencers.
▶ 3:36:45Would that be pretty much uh that's the that's the new way? I agree very much with the way you phrased it in the conceptualization and I to answer the question, I think it's a little bit haphazard at state. It really depends on whether there's a specific team dealing with a specific country or issue topic and whether they have identified that and the way you've thought of it and they have the right people to advise them because by the way the way you do deliver a message in Saudi Arabia is going to may sound a little different than the way Washington would have thought but you need so you need
▶ 3:37:15people there who can say no no yeah we've got the policy but this is the way to present it so you're going to be more compelling to your audience. Thank you. And I'm going to skip to not one that goes back to many your earlier years, but uh but sort of mid-career in some ways. Major General Charles Williams, the director of OBO for the Bush administration.
▶ 3:37:38Is it fair to say that we previously reinvented the building of safe and effective facilities and then we have since abandoned them such that those cost benefits the speed uh to market if you will that occurred under his controversial sometimes but his leadership has been lost. Yes. I I think it's one of the most frustrating experiences I had was dealing with that office over time.
▶ 3:38:07And part of it is, of course, they do cling to their independence because they don't want ambassadors to be sort of telling them what to do and having their own motives. So, they need to make sure they're doing things properly for everybody wants a new office. They want a gold office, right? Uh but um but they're local realities, too. Uh but yes, I I thought we had basically developed a a concept that dealt with the security challenges of today that was costly but kept our people safe. And so I I don't know why we have to keep reinventing that one.
▶ 3:38:38Secretary, would you I imagine Ambassador, you would also agree that that getting the backlog of embassies and consulates that are effective and safe should be one of the reauthorization priorities o over uh if you will continuing to run out of money long before we slow deal with the backlog. Absolutely. Ankra was a priority.
▶ 3:39:02it was attacked by a suicide bomber uh some years ago and uh he didn't get beyond the first line of defense. So the system can work uh if you put effort and focus and resources into it. And my closing question uh I always run out of time before I run out of the many questions in this.
▶ 3:39:24We all know the the the uh the sort of biblical truism that if you give a man a fish, it's clear that there were time there were programs each of you understood and and embraced that in fact for a time gay people fish.
▶ 3:39:41But Ambassador Hail, you rightfully so said, "Don't celebrate 50 years of giving out We all talk about the Marshall Plan and how it took a ruined, unproductive uh Europe and got it on its feet. As we rebuild aid of all sort, including trade development agency, which I was honored to be nominated to during the Trump administration and so on.
▶ 3:40:10How much where is the balance in your opinion between and should there be a separation between the giving out of fish, giving of medicine, food and so on versus programs which claim to be about capability building and should we really define them differently so that not all programs are equal? Yes.
▶ 3:40:33I mean I I've said this before but I I I want to emphasize it again is that whatever we do the measurement is not the activity that we're doing. The measurement is the results that we're having based on whatever our policy goal is. And this has been the frustration I think for this whole morning this discussion is that there are people who want to measure success by how many dollars we've spent and how many people we have spending those dollars. Well, that's important but it's not the outcome.
▶ 3:40:59and you can do things maybe with fewer people and fewer dollars or maybe you need more dollars and more people but I don't see that prism very often applied in in the business I was in in the state department and so that to me is the key and it may lead you to more deeper involvement that's what MCC was all about was that kind of partnership to build capacity which can be key thank you uh Mr. Mr. Chairman, if I can close just with an an observation.
▶ 3:41:24Shortly after the uh the the pause in funding, I was in the Middle East and I I saw two programs that I think say it all. Two people came in in two countries. One tried to justify that absolutely we had to turn on the nominally $100 per teacher that was quote helping teachers do better work in that country.
▶ 3:41:47The other came in and said, "We're halfway done building a water facility that will provide clean water to in Jordan, as it turns out, to one of the driest and most water, you know, resource uh starved countries." Uh, one was just sort of saying, "But money does good." The other was saying you don't want to have a monument to a half-done project sitting out there for years so America so people can say America reigged and and quit.
▶ 3:42:16Hopefully, as we do through reauthorization, but also as we go through unpausing some programs uh with the secretary, we will look at that question in that light of was it nice to have or is it essential that we see and be given credit for the good work in some cases we're doing that changes lives. So, Mr. Chairman, thanks for your indulgence and I look forward to your closing remarks. Thank you, Vice Chairman.
▶ 3:42:44And truthfully, your your closing remarks lead very well into uh the nature of my questions. Uh I've deferred my questions to the end. I've really enjoyed hearing uh the testimony, the questions, and the answers and the dialogue back and forth. And a lot of it goes to, and this is where it segus to my friend Mr. Isa, uh the old sentiment that if everything is a priority, then nothing is a priority.
▶ 3:43:08And for each of us, of which nearly every member of this committee uh had questions and every member of this committee that was here uh responded that they absolutely believe in the necessity for a state department reauthorization. It's it's unanimous across everybody here.
▶ 3:43:24I can tell you things that I think we should depp prioritize largely individual grants like uh grants for sex change surgeries in Guatemala or Sesame Street in Iraq for $20 million or teach gender inclusivity through ultimate frisbee for $100,000. I don't know how many frisbes you get for $100,000 or uh helping Indonesian coffee companies become more gender friendly for $425,000. Right.
▶ 3:43:49point is I could say there's there's very specific individual grants and things that I disapprove of and there are very specific programs that I say I prioritize these uh I don't know that there's a a number that we could put on it where it doesn't scale to doing more and more great things like development finance corporation or or other things and so that's where the nature of my questions go to each of you and we'll do one and one one and one one and one see how far down the line we get um but if we could just start Ambassador Jeffrey give me something that you would say
▶ 3:44:20I really think this should be dep prioritized and uh juxtapose something I really think that this should be on the high end of the priority list and and then likewise Mr. Hail and I just love to hear you all uh you know give us the back and forth of where you'd prioritize deprioritize.
▶ 3:44:40Uh again I will seek refuge in this economist article because it is uh not only middle of the road I would say it's more on the progressive side normally but it's uh findings are quite uh uh quite dramatic uh and it gets to uh Congressman Isis's point and that is I both delivered fish that was one reason for our success in Syria the humanitarian programs and I've
▶ 3:45:10been out there trying to teach people how to fish. That's very hard to do. That gets to David's point. What are the effects? Do we really know what supply chain, what managerial managerial models, what will actually make that work in c not just in country X, but in village Y or in district Z? I've spent nine years in Turkey and nine years in Germany.
▶ 3:45:41I speak both languages. Well, I don't begin to really know how those societies tick. As an outsider, it's very hard for us to do these kind of broad development uh social political assistance uh and claim that we're really seeing effects.
▶ 3:46:00There is where I would deemphasize and I would focus again on humanitarian assistance, giving people fish, keep them alive so that they can eventually figure it out for themselves and security assistance. Representative Hill or Ambassador Hill, I would uh I would say that it you do have to tailor what we're doing to the specific theater that we're operating in.
▶ 3:46:25And so what you want to do in Mexico may be very different to what you want to do in in you know uh Vietnam. But to me where you're it's easiest to demonstrate the uh link between outcomes inputs and outcomes is things like the security sector uh globally law enforcement same thing.
▶ 3:46:48harder to make that link, but I know in my bones that it is extremely beneficial to America to invest in education uh and particularly to expose as many people as we can through American educational tools including universities that are overseas like AUB or AU um and economic assistance that is linked to developing a robust private sector to the extent we can in a country if they're actually committed to doing it because that's where we're value added. talk about competing with China.
▶ 3:47:17It's not how much money we spend. It's how do we make sure that these countries are are able to to compete on their own and not be penetrated by China. I would get rid of to the greatest extent possible the things that are you you know we basically um building new governance structures for countries. U it's been we've tried and failed. So the that whole world of democracy and state building I think is of limited uh limited utility. Thank you.
▶ 3:47:44And I think uh you know some of what you'd said today I I've really enjoyed again the the dialogue the testimony and I think a lot of it goes to we are looking to build partners. We're not looking to build permanent dependencies and that's something that we shouldn't celebrate and it's something that we need to be reflective of you know what is the duration that this dependency has been going on and what has been the is the dependency decreased has the dependency only increased and and if we're not reflecting on those things in every Congress and and allowing
▶ 3:48:15representatives to review these programs that are being undertaken by the executive branch and the state department and and evaluating their effectiveness uh then not only I think are we uh setting ourselves up for failure in diplomacy, but we're also failing to be good stewards of the people that fund every single program, which is the taxpayer of the United States of America. Again, I'll thank you all for your testimony.
▶ 3:48:37I'm going to go to my closing remarks and simply uh I know we've had all of the members of this committee uh depart, but I have assured all of them numerous times that as as we talk about State Department reauthorization, it's going to be a member-led process. Uh absolutely. We've been having many conversations with the administration uh to this point about direction and things that we've rooted out in oversight over the years and why things should change in this place or that place.
▶ 3:49:02And we're going to continue to have those dialogues with the administration uh right up until the point that this bill is written and beyond. and they're going to continue to work uh from from their lane in in doing what they can to make sure that they are good stewards and making sure that uh what we do in in foreign policy uh is foreign policy that works to put America first that it makes sense for Americans and makes us the partner of choice uh for these countries and not a pariah with these countries that we're undertaking diplomacy in and sure these
▶ 3:49:32members you know I've remembered that uh there will be you know portals and opportunity for every single one of them to input put their amendments, their ideas, their thoughts, their, you know, whatever it is that they want to uh add or detract from uh in this bill. And we look forward to uh making sure that we uh hear from each and every one of them and and hopefully find that no members are are silenced or uh procluded from offering the the policies that they they want to put forward as sometimes takes place with minorities.
▶ 3:50:02They they sometimes don't want to participate uh because then they had to say they were a part of the process. And I hope that's not the case of what takes place here. Uh I do thank each of you for your valuable testimony and I do thank again all the members for their questions and members of the committee may have some additional questions for uh each of you witnesses and we will ask that you respond to those questions in writing. Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have five days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record and subject to length limitations.
▶ 3:50:32Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.