▶ 0:20:18The oversight and crime subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on oversight of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great state of Kansas, Mr. Schmidt, to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. And please stay risen.
▶ 0:20:40We are going to have a moment of silence afterward to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one indivisible and justice for all. Moment of silence.
▶ 0:21:15We'll now recognize myself for an opening statement. I want to welcome everyone to today's joint hearing. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here today, especially those who have served or are currently serving in our federal correctional institutions and are working from the outside to support and enhance the Bureau of Prisons, which God help us, it needs.
▶ 0:21:39And I welcome those officers and employees from the Bureau of Prisons who are joining us in the gallery or watching from across the country. This week marks National Corrections Officers Week is a time when we should honor the professionalism, the discipline, and the sacrifice of those who serve behind those walls. The men and women who staff our federal prisons, our law enforcement officers in every sense of the word.
▶ 0:22:09They walk the toughest beats in the United States of America. And it is our duty to ensure that they have the tools, the training, and the leadership they need to do their jobs safely and effectively. So, let me be blunt. The Bureau of Prisons is not a system in need of some minor improvements. It is in need of a true reckoning. That's not my opinion. It's fact.
▶ 0:22:38The DOJ Inspector General has published over 100 reports since the early 2000s documenting the systemic failure of the Bureau of Prisons, deteriorating facilities, chronic understaffing, and failure to retain staff, low morale, breakdowns in safety, and resource mismanagement. This hearing is an opportunity to begin that work in earnest that we need to do.
▶ 0:23:08It should not only be a political exercise. It is a roadmap and an educational and constructive platform for the new director of the Bureau of Prisons, Mr. William K. Marshall III. Director Marshall steps into this role as a pivotal at a pivotal and promising moment. With decades of public service in corrections, decades of experience, he will be useful and helpful.
▶ 0:23:36Director Marshall now has the opportunity to chart a bold, credible, and accountable path into the future. To frame today's discussion, I want to identify some of the specific challenges that require urgent attention. First, staffing. The bureau is currently operating with thousands of vacancies, including nearly 6,000 fewer staff than its authorized level.
▶ 0:24:04This is not sustainable to go in this direction. And I've worked as I've worked on this issue over the years, I've come to learn a lot about correctional officers, not just what they do, but what they endure. I'm going to give you some stats, but I know, you know, I was in the state senate. I was in the state legislature in the state of New Jersey for 16 years, and we had the prison gang task force, and we went to every single prison in the state of New Jersey.
▶ 0:24:31And to see what they had to put up with, what was going on, the challenges they had was a real eye openener for me. I have always had a special place in my heart for correctional officers. We know their lifespan. I know I know their lifespan is shorter. Correctional officers on average on average live to just 59 years old, nearly 20 years below the national average. I know their rates of suicide are higher.
▶ 0:25:00The rate is more than seven times the national average. I know they get sick more. Stress, sleep deprivation, trauma drive higher rates of heart disease and high blood pressure. I know they get divorced more often. Their divorce rate outpaces nearly every other law enforcement official. I know they get paid less.
▶ 0:25:24In New Jersey, in New Jersey, I know for a fact, federal correction officers make nearly just about half of what their state counterparts earn. This job has a price. These men and women pay this price every day. Second issue, physical infrastructure. From broken security doors to outdated HVAC systems, our institutions deteriorate daily.
▶ 0:25:50The inspector general estimates a multi-billion dollar backlog in critical repairs all across the 122 BOP institutions. Some of these prisons actually cost more now to maintain than they are actually worth. That's a waste of taxpayer dollars and real solutions are needed to ensure that government facilities are both safe and efficient.
▶ 0:26:18Third, accountability and reform implementation. Congress recently passed the bipartisan federal prison oversight act, creating an independent ombbudsman to handle complaints. That office has yet to be set up. The bureau has also been tasked with implementing the first step back to ensure public confidence in federal detention. Thankfully, the Trump administration has recognized the urgent need to course correct.
▶ 0:26:48For example, under President Trump's leadership, the bureau has reversed misguided policies from the previous administration, including restoring the principle that federal inmates will be housed according to their biological sex and eliminating taxpayer funded gender ideology in our prisons. it does not belong there.
▶ 0:27:12Additionally, a new inter agency agreement with DHS and ICE is helping to alleviate the border crisis by utilizing BOP facilities to house illegal immigrants. It's a prudent use of existing resources during unprecedented times. But there is a lot more progress to be made. Director Marshall and his team now have both the mandate and the responsibility to finish the job.
▶ 0:27:36When federal prisons are mismanaged, it affects communities, victims, and law enforcement across the United States of America. I've seen it myself in my own district. South Jersey is home to FCI Fairton, where I've heard currently from officers and families on the ground who are deeply concerned about the future of the institution itself and maintaining professionalism and their profession.
▶ 0:28:04Fairton is designed specifically now now to house inmates who can't be placed in the general population for a variety of reasons. Gang dropouts who would be in trouble if they were in the general population. Sex offenders and former law officials. This facility is facing a wide range of issues.
▶ 0:28:28Chronic understaffing and rising inmate numbers have created an increasingly unsafe environment for everyone on the inside. These conditions put correctional officers at risk every single day of the week. And what's happening at Ferton is not unique. It's symptomatic. It's a reflection of what's happening across the federal system across the country.
▶ 0:28:51We are committed to ensuring that Bureau of Prisons is operates with integrity, transparency, and respect for both its workforce and respect for the rule of law. To every correctional officer here listening today and around the country, your service matters. We see your sacrifice and we will not let this opportunity pass without pushing for real and lasting change.
▶ 0:29:20that reflects the seriousness of your issues and your job. I'd like to say too, I believe that this is an area where on some issues and not on all, but on some issues where we can come together in a bipartisan way. There will be issues in which we disagree, but I do believe there are issues in which we come together. I want to thank you for that. And I will now recognize the ranking member.
▶ 0:29:51I want to make sure I get this right. The ranking member. Yes, Miss Crockett for her opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you so much for your opening. Um, I think that we are living in a time in which um, the American people are hoping that we can agree on something, anything in Congress.
▶ 0:30:16And the fact is the vast majority of your opening statement I could not disagree with. The question is, while we agree that there is a problem, let's hope that Congress can do what we are supposed to do, which is agree upon a solution. Today's hearing could not come at a timelier moment with this being National Correctional Officers Week. So, thank you to all of our correctional officers.
▶ 0:30:41Today, approximately 35,000 correctional officers and staff are under the control of the Bureau of Prisons. And during the last 100 plus days of this administration, we've seen just how little Trump cares about the BOP staff's ability to do their job overseeing and roughly 155,000 incarcerated people in our federal prison system.
▶ 0:31:05Having been a former public defender and civil rights attorney, I can tell you that I have seen uh the inside of a few prisons myself. I've seen the conditions these individuals are living in. I've seen the conditions that staff are working under and based on my experience, I can tell you correctional officer staff have one of the most difficult jobs as well as the most dangerous. And these jobs are now only getting harder.
▶ 0:31:31Just two and a half months ago, Miss Kathleen Tumi, the deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, testified before Congress that the bureau had over 4,000 vacant positions that need to be filled. Yet, rather than doing anything to ensure adequate staffing and protect officers and inmates, Trump's Justice Department terminated the bureau's incentive pay plan, effectively cutting bureau officers and other employees pay anywhere between 10 and
▶ 0:32:0125%. This plan, of course, helped to retain and recruit people for jobs within the BOP. Then on March 27th, 2025, Trump issued an executive order eliminating BOP's labor union, which is comprised of roughly 30,000 officers and staff. All this comes after GAO added BOP to its 2025 high-risisk list in January due to all of the problems the BOP is facing.
▶ 0:32:30A GAO highlighted BOP's quote longstanding staffing challenges present a serious threat to the safety of staff and incarcerated people. BOP also faces challenges with aging and deteriorating infrastructure which likewise affects safety. It also needs improvements in planning for programs to prepare incarcerated persons for release.
▶ 0:32:55better monitoring and evaluation are needed to improve management of the federal prison system. End quote. So, does Trump take these issues and threats to safety seriously? Absolutely not. Instead, he made the deranged, delusional decision over the weekend to open up Alcatraz as a prison that was literally shut down because it was too expensive and too impractical to run. Honestly, you can't make this stuff up.
▶ 0:33:24Please tell me how any of this makes sense. Stripping bureau employees of their collective bargaining rights, cutting pay and benefits at a time where the bureau was ranked the worst place to work among all federal sub agencies and offices. And we have more than 450 offices. Having staff like prison teachers, cooks, nurses, and monitors being forced to serve as correctional officers because BOP has too few officers to actually do the job.
▶ 0:33:54wanting to place even more of a strain on the system by trying to house migrants and children in bureau facilities. It's absolutely ridiculous. Let me be clear. This isn't just a staff issue. It's a life ordeath issue.
▶ 0:34:08Reports by the Justice Department's Inspector General detailed how and over a third of the inmate inmate suicides that occurred between fiscal years 2014 to 2021, BOP staff didn't sufficiently conduct the required inmate rounds or counts to check on the inmates. Let me tell y'all something. Realizing this fact took me back.
▶ 0:34:34I don't know what it's like to be a family member and to receive that phone call about your loved one that you would imagine is in one of the safest places ever, regardless of why they are there, and to find out that they somehow committed suicide. I don't know what it's like to be that loved one, but I do know what it's like to be that attorney and to get that call. to get the call that one of my clients somehow has managed to unfortunately take his life.
▶ 0:35:04This is unacceptable. And who knows how many lives could be saved. And while all of this is bad on its own, let's not forget about the fact that in all of the 120 correctional institutions under the bureau's control, each need some kind of repair at any given time. like Segoville Federal Correctional Institution in Texas, for example, which is close to my district.
▶ 0:35:29Six of the eight buildings housing inmates had broken air conditioning units during the summer where temperatures in Texas facilities can reach up to 110° and at least one unit topped 149°. We need to get to the bottom of this and fix this organization before more and more deaths occur. Today's hearing is one of the few moments where actually I believe we can do something good in Congress.
▶ 0:35:55And I hope we do today because at the end of the day, this is about doing what's right. It's about protecting employees. It's about protecting lives. It's about ensuring we give people a second chance at life. So, I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. And I look forward to participating in this important discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. I will now recognize the chairman of the crime subcommittee from the great state of Arizona, Andy Biggs.
▶ 0:36:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the members of both sub subcommittees for coming together this morning. I thank Chairman Van Drew for his opening remarks. I thank the witnesses for being here and appreciate you. Look forward to your testimony today. Today's hearing is titled Federal Corrections and Focus Oversight of the Bureau of Prisons. This hearing will serve as a robust continuation of the oversight this committee conducted over BOP during the 118th Congress. I look forward to continuing that important work today.
▶ 0:36:55The Federal Bureau of Prisons, BOP, is a component of the Department of Justice. BOP's mission is to protect society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, costefficient, and appropriately secure. and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming lawabiding citizens. It's critical that BOP hold people accountable while also preparing those who will reenter society.
▶ 0:37:26This week, we honor and celebrate National Correctional Officers Week and recognize correctional employees, the brave men and women who continue so much, excuse me, who contribute so much to public Unfortunately, we know corrections officers continue to work difficult and demanding jobs between staffing shortages and crumbling infrastructure throughout its facilities. Staff recruitment and retention remain a major challenge for BOP.
▶ 0:37:53And while BOP has attempted initiatives to boost recruitment and retention, BOP still has thousands of vacancies, including nearly 6,000 fewer staff than its authorized level. It's no secret that morale is low. and that causes ripple effects across all of the bureau. To those corrections officers listening or watching or are here today, we see you. We hear you. We appreciate you. We thank you.
▶ 0:38:20And we hope that this hearing can serve as a starting point and lead to better workplace with better conditions. One of the ways to move toward a better BOP is to implement oversight and accountability. We have heard concerning allegations about uh the BOP misappropriating funds. We've seen this before. Those at the top of government using taxpayer funds to benefit themselves.
▶ 0:38:43BOP needs accountability and transparency through true fiscal responsibility, not turning a blind eye to all the existing issues. Thankfully, there's hope and optimism with Director Marshall. We look forward to working with him to restore trust in BOP and bring it back to its original mission. BOP is also charged with much of the implementation of the First Step Act.
▶ 0:39:06The First Step Act was signed into law by President Trump and seeks to reduce the size of the federal prison population and reduce recidivism while still maintaining public safety. The First Step Act required DOJ to develop a system for BOP to use to assess the risk of recidivism of federal prisoners and to assign prisoners to evidence-based recidivism reduction programs.
▶ 0:39:28These programs include literacy programs, occupational education programs, trade skill programs, and substance use programs. This is why I said BOP needs to make sure they get this right. We cannot allow individuals to leave our prisons early unless we can ensure that they will not reaffend reaffend.
▶ 0:39:50The crime subcommittees examined the implementation of the first step act on a bipartisan basis since its passage and this oversight of BOP continues today with more urgency and focus than ever before. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses and again I thank you and Mr. Chairman I yield back. Thank you. Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the crime subcommittee from the great state of Georgia, Lucy McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 0:40:20We really appreciate your time and your effort. Uh Mr. Chairman, I thank you for having this hearing on the oversight of the Bureau of Prisons. While it's not been long since we last discussed this issue, the problems in our federal prisons, many of which are decades in the making, continue to demand our attention. The many issues faced by BOP are the result of year after year of extremely limited resources.
▶ 0:40:49At a time when the president and his allies in Congress are talking about radical cuts, it's critical that we take note of how a severely limited budget has already affected the health and safety of everyone who enters a BOP facility.
▶ 0:41:06There are more than 150,000 federal inmates and more than 35,000 BOP staff members members depending on us to give them the tools and resources that they need to keep everyone safe, even themselves. Far too often, BOP is not guaranteed the basic safety of everyone in its care.
▶ 0:41:30These failures have often fallen especially hard on women in BOP custody like those at Federal Corrections Institution Dublin in California. For years, women at FCI Dublin faced horrific sexual abuse, including harassment, coerced sexual activity, and even rape.
▶ 0:41:55Inmates who tried to speak up faced harsh retaliation and those responsible managed to cover up their conduct for years. Seven correctional officers, including the prison's warden, have been sentenced as a result of the years of misconduct. But the abuse faced by their victims cannot be undone. Last April, BOP abruptly shut down FCI Dublin.
▶ 0:42:24in some cases sending inmates far from their families and the lawmakers that were working to help them, excuse me, lawyers that were working to help them. Some reported being singled out and bullied at their new facilities, such as being denied soap, served worse food, and being forced to sleep on soiled beds, all because they were perceived as speaking out against the abuses that shut down FCI Dublin.
▶ 0:42:52Earlier this year, a judge signed a consent decree that, among other things, requires BOP to report on the medical and mental health of former Dublin Dublin inmates, ensure that they have access to rape crisis centers, review their disciplinary records, expunge all disciplinary actions that were actually retaliation, and limit the inappropriate use of solitary confinement potentially use to
▶ 0:43:23retaliate against them or isolate them so that they might be subject to further abuse. We must ensure that we do not allow an incident like this to ever again. And safety is simply the bare minimum. The vast majority of imprisoned persons will eventually be released and rejoin our communities.
▶ 0:43:49how they spend their time in prison has a profound effect on who they will be when they are released. This was a basic premise of the First Step Act, a bipartisan bill that provided more opportunities for inmates to make the most of their time through evidence-based programs that reduce recidivism.
▶ 0:44:11These programs help inmates get the treatment for addiction, gain job skills, learn how to read, strengthen their family relationships, and learn how to resolve conflicts. Inmates who put in their time and effort to improve themselves that they could earn an earlier release.
▶ 0:44:31The First Step Act was a historic step toward providing better opportunities for rehabilitation that will ultimately benefit all of our communities because more people will come out of prison prepared to make better choices and turn away from crime. And despite challenges in implementation, that positive change is already happening.
▶ 0:44:56An analysis by the Council on Criminal Justice found that people who participated in the First Step Act programs and were released early were 55% less likely to commit crime.
▶ 0:45:10If this administration and congressional Republicans don't follow through by investing in the First Step Act, they'll be locking people up without any plan for them for the This country would be stuck in an old failed policy in which prisons would be dangerous, hostile places for inmates and staff and inmates would be released without any more skills and
▶ 0:45:40even less hope than what they came in with. If we don't invest in the First Step Act, a bipartisan bill that's signed into law by President Trump, then we are setting people up to fail even before they're released from custody. But it doesn't have to be this way. The First Step Act can unlock a future with fewer people incar incarcerated, more people contributing to their communities, and safer places for all of us to live.
▶ 0:46:10We must invest in the FirstStep Act to be sure that it reaches its full potential. Likewise, we must fund the Federal Prison Oversight Act, a bipartisan law that I was proud to lead, which was signed into law last year.
▶ 0:46:27This law will require the Department of Justice's Inspector General to access to assess the risk of problems at our BOP facilities, to inspect high-risk facilities more frequently, to provide recommendations to fix the problems, and to report its findings and recommendations to Congress and to the public.
▶ 0:46:48The law requires BOP to respond to all inspection reports within 60 days with a corrective action This overhaul of BOP oversight can ensure the health and safety of everyone in BOP facilities and is especially important to uncover misconduct like what occurred at FCI Dublin and to find it much earlier so that this swift action can be taken to protect victims and discipline those who do not fulfill their
▶ 0:47:19duty to treat inmates with basic human and dignity. Human dignity. But this law will only take effect, yes, once again, unless it is funded. We already have bipartisan agreement that this is the right action to take to address BOP's problems. We must continue this bipartisanship and investing in better oversight of the BOP by providing the funding that will make the Federal Prison Oversight Actually a reality.
▶ 0:47:49Together, I truly believe I know that we can not only improve BOP, but improve the lives of those who serve time in the facilities so that they can choose to turn their lives around and contribute to their communities, which are all of our communities. And I'd like uh have a unanimous unanimous consent request I'd like to uh enter into the without objection. It's uh Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 0:48:18It's a unan unanimous consent to enter into the record uh letter dated May 5, 2025 led by the sentencing project and signed by 12 other justice. Without objection. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and your interest today and I yield back. We'll now call upon the ranking member of the committee of the whole from the great state of Maryland, Mr. Rascin.
▶ 0:48:46Thank you very kindly, Chairman Van Drew. Welcome to our witnesses and uh thanks to uh the uh ranking members. Uh Ms. uh McBath and uh Miss Crockett as well. Um I'm going to start with a couple of unanimous consent requests. Uh one is to enter into the record an Associated Press article by Sarah Robuk titled Bureau of Prisons. Without objection. Great.
▶ 0:49:11And the the heading here is the Bureau of Prisons uh slashes retention bonuses impacting without objection thousands of good. I I don't mind if this comes out of my time, Mr. Chairman. Um uh I just because it it leads into what I want to talk about. The the BOP slashes retention bonuses impacting thousands of congressional officers.
▶ 0:49:32Roughly 23,000 were informed that their retention pay would be significantly reduced or eliminated entirely with some workers seeing a pay decrease of up to 25%. And one other UC request to enter into the record an article by Drew Freriedman titled days ahead of coming Bureau of Prison pay cuts. Some employees are already resigning. Federal news without objection. Thank you kindly.
▶ 0:49:55Well, look, um, within, um, his first 100 days, President Trump has made moves that I'm afraid will only exacerbate long-standing problems that interfere with the Bureau of Prisons ability to safely incapacitate and rehabilitate uh, its prisoners.
▶ 0:50:15Uh the president issued an executive order that rescended the Biden administration's prohibition on BOP's continued use of private prisons, opening the door for a renewed reliance on private facilities where the federal government has little oversight and where inmates have been shown to be less safe and less able to access uh necessary medical care.
▶ 0:50:37President Trump um also unlawfully rescended the collective bargaining rights of a huge number of federal workers, more than a million federal workers um and federal unions, including those representing Bureau of Prison employees. Uh essentially stifling the voices of frontline officers during um a period when their voices are very badly needed.
▶ 0:51:02Once again, a federal judge had to step in to block uh President Trump's executive order from taking effect after unions sued one of now more than 130 court orders blocking the administration's uh violations of the law and the constitution. The administration also rescended retentionbased incentives for BOP employees that amount to cuts essentially of uh around 25% of their pay rates.
▶ 0:51:30These cuts have triggered mass resignations among BOP employees uh whose ranks were already stretched way too thin. How can we expect to bolster the culture and the effectiveness of the BOP workforce if we are slashing their pay? Do any of us know of any institutions where that might work?
▶ 0:51:51Um, in the face of this mass resignation of correctional officers, BOP will have to resort to even more quote augmentation, which is the term uh describing use of employees other than correctional officers, people like nurses or teachers or cooks to guard inmates, a stop gap measure, which obviously undermines safety for everyone. Facilities that are short staffed rely also on facilitywide lockdowns.
▶ 0:52:20more often and for longer periods of time. At the same time, because of this lack of resources, inmates do not have access to the treatment, medical care, and rehabilitative programming that Congress called for in the bipartisan First Step Act, which we're also proud of.
▶ 0:52:38Um, and despite President Trump signing the First Step Act aimed at reducing the federal prison population and aimed at reducing recidivism, the Bureau of Prisons also reduced the amount of time that inmates can spend in residential re-entry centers from 18 or 19 months to a maximum of just 60 days, two months, citing budget constraints.
▶ 0:53:01Um, these residential re-entry centers or halfway houses as they're colloquially known perform a critical role in helping released inmates transition back into communities across the country, providing housing, employment, substance, and mental health and treatment, um, uh, professional counseling and medical care. But drastically cutting the amount of time that people can actually use these services will certainly lead to a reduction in their efficacy and an increase in recidivism.
▶ 0:53:32While BOP has been forced to make devastating cuts that will affect not only employees and inmates, but the safety of our communities. Last week, the Judiciary Committee passed an $81 billion reconciliation bill to supercharge ICE money that our uh colleagues voted to make available for arresting, detaining, and deporting not just immigrants, but some US citizens, too.
▶ 0:53:57And just two weeks ago, the Department of Justice terminated at least 365 public safety grants totaling in the hundreds of millions of dollars, cutting funds for law enforcement at the local level, opioid addiction treatment programs, programs promoting officer safety and wellness, programs for crime prevention, and programs that support the victims of rape and uh sexual assault and other violent crime. times.
▶ 0:54:27Uh, all of us, even apparently our Republican colleagues, were apparently blindsided by these deep cuts to existing programs that, as far as I can tell, came from a single Doge employee. Um, during the committee's consideration of reconciliation last week, I tried to restore funding to these critical grant programs through an amendment, which my colleagues um failed to discuss and all voted to oppose.
▶ 0:54:53I'm aware that a panel of witnesses has often worked together on criminal justice reform and to address the challenges facing BOP. I look forward to hearing from you on these important issues. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. Without objection, all other opening statements will be included in the record. We are now going to proceed with introduction of today's witnesses. Again, thank you all for being here. We do appreciate you. Mr. Randy Potter, Mr.
▶ 0:55:19Potter is the founder and executive director of One Voice United, an organization that advocates on behalf of corrections officers. He served for nearly 30 years as a correctional officer with the Michigan Department of Corrections. Mr. Patrick Patel. Mr.
▶ 0:55:37Patel is the executive vice president and general counsel of unify us, an organization that advocates for individual freedom, limited government, free enterprise, and American values. He is also the Charles Evans Hughes Lecturer in politics and co-director of the Washington Study Group at Colgate University. Mr. Cody Wild. Mr.
▶ 0:56:04Wild is a senior vice president of correctional programs at the Prison Fellowship, an organization that works with prisoners, former prisoners, and their families. Mr. Wild oversees prison fellowship correctional programming in approximately 1,200 prisons across all 50 states in the union. Mr. Candia Milton, Mr. Milton is the government affairs director at dream.org, or an organization that advocates for criminal justice reform.
▶ 0:56:34He previously served as deputy mayor and chief of staff for the city of Detroit, Michigan. We welcome our witnesses today. We thank them for appearing today. We will begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that under the penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief.
▶ 0:57:04So help you God. Okay. Thank you. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes. We will begin with Mr. Potter.
▶ 0:57:35Mr. Chairman, ranking members, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. My name is Andy Potter and I serve as the founder and executive director of One Voice United, a national organization committed to lifting up the voices and expertise of corrections professionals and ensuring that they are a part of the national conversations that are shaping the future of corrections.
▶ 0:58:01Before founding One Voice United, I spent nearly 30 years working inside of correctional facilities as an officer and later as a labor leader in Michigan. Those experiences combined with years of traveling the country and listening to thousands of correctional officers and staff have given me a deep appreciation for the work that they do and a clear view of the systematic challenges that continue to impact corrections at every level.
▶ 0:58:31Today, corrections as a profession is at crossroads. From the county jails and state prisons to the Bureau of Prisons, we are seeing an unprecedented convergence of issues that threaten the overall mission and health of our correction system across the United States. Chronic understaffing has forced employees to work exhausting amounts of overtime, often leading to burnout.
▶ 0:58:59safety risk and declining morale. New recruits have become increasingly difficult to attract and even harder to retain with many agencies losing a staggering number of good people within the first 18 months of service. It's a problem that touches every corner of our country and every layer of our system.
▶ 0:59:22At the same time, the physical infrastructures inside many facilities continues to deteriorate and employees and those incarcerated are asked to live and work in facilities that are not equipped for the demands of today's correctional environment.
▶ 0:59:41And when conditions deteriorate such as they have, it sends a harmful message about the value we place on their safety and their Compounding these issues is a deeper, more difficult challenge. The erosion of job satisfaction and connection to a larger purpose. Increasingly, employees report that they feel isolated and disconnected from the mission of rehabilitation and more like expendable cogs in a machine.
▶ 1:00:12The result is a workforce that is overburdened physically, stretched to its breaking point mentally and emotionally. However, despite the seriousness of these challenges, I believe this is also a moment of tremendous opportunity.
▶ 1:00:31We believe we we have the chance right now through leadership, collaboration, and honest engagement to chart a better path forward for the corrections profession and the broader system that serves. A critical part of that effort must be investing in 21st century training and comprehensive employee wellness programs that are designed with the direct input of the employees themselves.
▶ 1:00:58They must be integrated into the culture of every department and facility with consistent funding and evaluations and leadership commitment. Equally important is restoring the meaning and pride in corrections work. When employees are treated as stakeholders, when their expertise is valued and their voices are heard in the shaping of policies, it builds a sense of agency and purpose that cannot be replaced otherwise.
▶ 1:01:28Without that buyin, even the best intended reforms or culture change will struggle to take hold. We believe in the power of collaboration between employees and those who might represent them, legislators, advocates, and communities to drive lasting change. No single entity can solve these changes alone.
▶ 1:01:54In closing, if we're willing to truly engage with one another and lift up the real world experiences of those who know this work best, then One Voice United stands ready to assist however we can. Thank you again for the opportunity to speak here today and I'll stand ready for any questions. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Potter. Uh Mr. Patil, you may begin. Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:02:20Chairman, ranking members, distinguished members of Congress, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. Uh, I want to begin by noting that President Trump made an excellent choice when he selected William Marshall to serve as director of the Bureau of Prisons, and I have high hopes he'll succeed in that in that post. uh as we've heard the most immediate challenges he faces are staff retention and recruitment uh the degraded condition of BOP facilities and I would add the increasing cost uh the financial cost of incarceration generally.
▶ 1:02:49So over the past 10 years BOP staffing has dropped significantly. Staffing shortages often require substantial use of overtime including mandatory overtime and the use of augmentation. Uh BOP faces a $3 billion uh price tag for deferred maintenance and those repairs are needed across all of its facilities. Staffing shortages and poor facilities undermine employee retention rates and create security and safety issues for staff and inmates alike.
▶ 1:03:16These challenges are complicated by the fact uh that the number of prisoners in BOP facilities and the cost to incarcerate them has risen dramatically over the years. Understanding Congress's efforts to reduce unsustainable levels of federal uh federal spending, I'm going to limit my remarks to recommendations that can be implemented under current law using current funding levels. The first thing is to remember that corrections officers are first responders and I think that we can make better use of them.
▶ 1:03:43COs are law enforcement professionals who perform many of the same functions as police officers, but equally important, they are critical to the rehabilitation process and have a direct impact on recidivism. In fact, no one has more insight into an inmate's likelihood of successfully reintegrating into society than the CEOs who interact with them on a daily basis. CO's experience and insight should help inform public policy and BOP should incentivize and empower cos to have a stake in the prisoners rehabilitation as well as in the security of the facilities.
▶ 1:04:14Second, home confinement to free uh funds up at the BOP. BOP must reduce its per inmate average cost of incarceration while not undermining public safety. I stress that while not undermining public safety. Recent experience demonstrates this can be done within certain careful parameters. Uh the 2020 CARES Act allowed federal prisons to serve a portion of their sentence in home confinement. Former Attorney General William Bar set the criteria for home confinement eligibility.
▶ 1:04:43It required being in low or many uh minimum security, having a clean misconduct record, no history of violence, sex or terrorism offenses, a viable re-entry plan, a minimum or low risk score on the BOP's pattern risk assessment tool, and having served a significant portion of their sentence. These criteria allowed a substantial number of prisoners to be moved to home confinement without undermining public safety.
▶ 1:05:10In fact, after release from home confinement, those with a car's assignment had a 3.6% recidivism rate over one year, whereas those without a car's assignment had a 13% recidivism rate. And according to the most recent data available, about 54% of the current federal prison population are classified as minimum or low risk for recidivism by BOP's pattern risk assessment tool.
▶ 1:05:33I'm certain that not all of these people meet the CARES Act criteria for home confinement, but many could be placed in home confinement without jeopardizing public safety and thereby realizing the substantial cost savings to the BOP. Third, close outdated and dilapidated BOP facilities. BOP needs to review its physical footprint as we've heard since modernizing any federal operation often runs up against political pressures.
▶ 1:05:58Unifi US would recommend forming a commission patterned after the DoD base realignment and closure commission to review BOP's facilities requirements and to rightsize the bureau after accounting for its staffing and its budgetary needs. This would free up revenues for maintenance and modernization of BOP's remaining facilities. Beyond cost savings, there is some evidence that this could also help reduce recidivism.
▶ 1:06:22Evidence from Colombian prison construction suggests that prisoners that were quasi randomly assigned to newer and therefore slightly better prisons were up to 36% less likely to recidivate. Fourth, uh continue implementation of the First Step Act. During President Trump's first administration, he championed supporting successful re-entry and supporting law enforcement with passage of the First Step Act.
▶ 1:06:47Through its oversight function, Congress should continue to ensure that BOP expands recidivism reduction programming and that eligible individuals receive appropriate FSA incentives. Also, BOP should especially focus on increasing access to evidence-based recidivism reduction In closing, by improving facilities, by improving respect for and the resources available to corrections officers, and by safely transitioning inmates least likely to commit new crimes back into society, BOP, Congress,
▶ 1:07:17and the Trump administration can go a long way towards solving our corrections crisis while ensuring public safety. Thank you very much. I look forward to answering your Thank you, Mr. Patel. Mr. Wild, you may Good morning, Chairman Biggs. Chairman Van Drew, Ranking Member McBth, Ranking Member Crockett, and members of the subcommittee. I'm Cody Wild, senior vice president of correctional programs at Prison Fellowship. And I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.
▶ 1:07:48Prison Fellowship is the nation's largest Christian nonprofit, equipping the church to serve currently and formerly incarcerated people and their families and to advocate for justice and human dignity. Established on the belief that all people are created in God's image and that no life is beyond his reach, Prison Fellowship takes a restorative approach to those affected by incarceration.
▶ 1:08:10We strive to make prisons safer and more rehabilitative, advance criminal justice reform, and support incarcerated people, their families, and their communities. Robust programming, including faith informed, volunteer-led initiatives, is essential for creating a safer correctional environment and preparing individuals for successful Research shows that incarcerated people who participate in educational or
▶ 1:08:41vocational programming are 43% less likely to recidivate. While many state correctional systems have embraced partnerships with external organizations to provide these opportunities, the Bureau of Prisons has historically been more cautious. The First Step Act of 2018 encourages collaboration with community-based and faith-based groups to provide evidence-based recidivism reduction programs and productive activities.
▶ 1:09:10However, the current vetting process for external programs exceeds what the law requires. unintentionally nocost missional line programs like the prison fellowship academy. The incoming BOP director has an opportunity to remove unnecessary barriers and realize the full intent of the first step act by welcoming qualified partners who can expand in prison programming.
▶ 1:09:35At the same time, any discussion about program access must be grounded in the broader challenges facing corrections today, such as significant staffing shortages that impact the ability to implement and sustain rehabilitation effort. With prison staffing at its lowest point in over two decades and continued high incarceration rates, facilities face serious operational and safety strains.
▶ 1:10:02Officers often endure long shifts and high stress, contributing to burnout and health risks. Addressing these issues through fair compensation, mental health support, and strong recruitment practices is vital, as is leadership development to foster healthier cultures inside of prison walls.
▶ 1:10:24In response to these pressures, programs like those offered by Prison Fellowship can play a critical role in supporting both staff and incarcerated individuals at no cost to the BOP. Prison Fellowship's Warden Exchange equips correctional executives with tools for building restorative prison cultures and has trained over 680 leaders across 47 states with an additional 149 currently enrolled.
▶ 1:10:55We also offer transformation transformative programs like Prison Fellowship Grow, a year-long cohort-based course rooted in Christian principles of human flourishing. While faith is not required for participation, the program is designed for those who are curious about or open to learning more about Christianity. The Prison Fellowship Academy is our most intensive in prison program, offering men and women a voluntary holistic journey of life transformation.
▶ 1:11:25Over the course of the year, participants are mentored by staff and volunteers as they develop and practice the biblically based values of good citizenship, community affirmation, productivity, responsibility, restoration, and integrity. A recent study in Texas found a 53.8% reduction in recidivism among academy graduates.
▶ 1:11:49Finally, Angel Tree supports family connections by partnering with churches to serve children of incarcerated parents year round, helping restore relationships and providing hope to the 1.5 million children with a parent currently in prison.
▶ 1:12:07In total, our programs reach over 600,000 individuals in more than 12,200 facilities annually, supported by 7,600 volunteers, and serve more than 271,000 children each year. At a time of limited budget and rising needs, it's essential to adopt cost-effective volunteer-driven programs that reduce recidivism, support staff, and foster rehabilitation.
▶ 1:12:31and we are ready to partner with the BOP to expand access to these proven initiatives to help create a more restorative and effective federal system. Thank you for your time and attention and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you, Mr. Wild. Mr. Milton, you may Good morning, Chairman Biggs, Van Drew, Ranking Members McBath, Crockett. Thank you for convening this important joint hearing.
▶ 1:13:01My name is Candia Milton and I serve as government affairs director for dream.org, an organization committed to advancing meaningful and lasting bipartisan criminal justice reforms. At the heart of all of our work is a commitment to centering the voices of those directly impacted by the justice system. I come to you this morning not only as a policy advocate but also as someone who has lived experience within the federal prison system.
▶ 1:13:31I previously served as deputy mayor and chief of staff for the city of Detroit and after accepting responsibility for a serious bad decision I made in office. I served time in a federal correction facility.
▶ 1:13:45While I had always understood on an intellectual level the need for prison reform and the importance of supporting successful re-entry, it was my time behind the walls and the stories of those I met inside that opened my heart and gave purpose to the work I do every day.
▶ 1:14:06It is deeply troubling that the many challenges we discussed and faced during my incarceration which ended in 2011, these problems remain unresolved today. In fact, by many accounts, the conditions have worsened.
▶ 1:14:25This is not only a disservice to the correction officers and those who are incarcerated, but also to the communities they will to which they will one day return. There are large problems, pressing problems at the Bureau of Prisons. First, there are the cat catastrophic infrastructure issues.
▶ 1:14:48The has 121 institutions that include 3600 buildings and according to the inspector general, they are all in need of serious attention. As of February 2024, the BOP estimated that the major repairs needed across the facility would cost $3 billion.
▶ 1:15:12And according to OIG audits, it is determined that all 121 of the BOP's institutions require maintenance. Despite the need for investment in critical infrastructure across the entire BOP, there continues to be talk of investing more money in building new facilities, including an unnecessary budgeted $55 million
▶ 1:15:42prison proposed to be constructed on top of a former coal mine in eastern Kentucky. Second, the PO the BOP is critically underst staffed. Associate Deputy Director Kathleen Tumi in her testimony before the subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies in February concluded that the BOP is short over 4,000 officers, while other press reports suggest that the
▶ 1:16:12bureau is over 6,000 officers under staff. The problem of retaining officers have been further complicated by a directive that ended retention bonuses. A BOP spokesperson suggested this impacts up to 25% of some employees pay.
▶ 1:16:33And the federal news network reports that this decision has already resulted in more correctional staff leaving the positions, thus exacerbating staffing crisis. Furthermore, understaff results in higher overtime costs and the use of regular staff, including medical staff, to augment congress correctional officer shortages. Third is the problem of halfway houses.
▶ 1:17:01The bureau has available beds but has not filled them and left thousands of people who have earned credits under the first step act or second chance act to qualify for release but whom still remain in prison. This is also legally problematic. In the case of the first step act earned credits, multiple courts have concluded that the plain meaning of the statute demands release and there are pending litigations on this topic as well.
▶ 1:17:28As an organization that led the efforts to pass the First Step Act, we emphatically support the its full implementation, which to date the BOP has failed to do. And we agree with Attorney General Pam Bonnie who said during her confirmation hearing, "We must fix the Bureau of Prison and follow up with the promises of the First Step Act by building more houses." Finally, the culture related to its operations.
▶ 1:17:56Most recently, these problems resulted in the closure of FCI Dublin, a prison so notorious that near nearly 100 cases, including a CA class action lawsuit, are in the process of litigation today. This speaks to the need to fund the bipartisan Federal Bureau Prisons Oversight Act. The problem Oh, have I gone over time? Sorry, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:18:26Sorry, members of committee. I stand down and avail myself to answer any questions you may have. Thank you for for your time and being here. We're now going to proceed under the fiveminute rule with questions. And I'm going to recognize the gentleman from the great state of Wisconsin, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:18:49Wild, what has the response been both federally and states that you've worked in with faith-based organizations like yourself? Um, tell us the response that get. So, one of the things that I know about corrections is that people tend to be very pragmatic. You know, does this work? And what we've seen is uh a large expansion of our programs, our warden exchange program. Like I said, we we just had our our largest uh cohort ever.
▶ 1:19:19149 correctional leaders are going through it right now. Our prison fellowshipmies, our grows, uh our angel tree program have continued to expand. As I mentioned, we're in all 50 states. And so, uh I'd say the response has been very good. Where uh where you find um uh governments that are not as um welcoming, what do you hear from them? So we operate in states as diverse as Washington and Oregon to Texas, Florida, North Dakota, uh Nebraska, California, all of them.
▶ 1:19:50And as I said, um they tend to be very pragmatic. Ask the question, is it voluntary? The answer is yes. Does it work? It does. And so we're allowed to operate and uh uh over time, you know, we're able to really affect the prison culture um which we hear both from the staff as well as leadership.
▶ 1:20:08Do you uh are there any changes needed by Congress to help you further um your Um thus far we have not been able to operate our in prison programs, ourmies or our grows within the bureau of prisons and we think that uh both of those programs as well as our warden exchange program that helps assist correctional leaders uh at no cost to the state uh can be a tremendous asset and a force multiplier to help solve some of these problems facing the bureau. Mr.
▶ 1:20:37Patill, um we heard earlier from the ranking member, do you um in regards to President Trump is failing? Do you agree President Trump does not care about prisons? That's what we heard is that he does not care about prisons u by one of the members up here. Do you agree with that? I do not uh respectfully sir do not agree with that. We worked extremely closely with the first Trump administration uh on crafting the First Step Act and I can tell you that they were very involved, very concerned. would not have happened without Mr.
▶ 1:21:07Trump's personal leadership. So, it simply doesn't comport with what I've experienced. Do do you think President Trump should continue with the status quo? Because that's that's what I'm hearing is that he doesn't care about prisons. We should uh leave things as is. Do you think we should leave the status quo? No, sir. I think there's there's much here as as this committee well knows that there's much here that under the Bureau of Prisons that needs to be addressed. And I think it can be addressed in terms of uh what Mr.
▶ 1:21:33Trump tried to do in his first uh first administration and that I have every reason to believe he's going to try to continue in his second. Give me something that's primary in your mind that um could be a good change for federal prisons. Well, I think to go back to what I to my testimony, I do think that focusing federal prisons, federal prisons are in a unique position in terms of corrections facilities across the country.
▶ 1:21:58I think they are best equipped to deal with some of the prisoners that are really most dangerous, most likely to commit new crimes to recidivate. And that's really uh a friend of mine at the Heritage Foundation, John Malcolm, likes to say, "Prison beds are some of the most expensive hotel rooms in the country.
▶ 1:22:14I want to reserve them for the people who are most dangerous to society." So I think getting doing all that we can to make sure that that is the population within the federal prisons because they are most they're just better equipped to deal with it I think than than any other system in the country. In my home state of Wisconsin back when I was in the state legislature we had a youth correctional facility that um the ACLU came in and sued to prevent them uh the staff they restricted the staff from using certain measures that they had used for a long long time.
▶ 1:22:45And um uh the the day that the judge accepted the ACLU's brief and said uh we're going to accept the policies that you're um suggesting for us, the um um young people in the correctional facility went on the roof of this facility and taunted the guards saying, uh you can't touch us. Is it surprising to you that a couple years later that a staff youth counselor was killed in that facility? Oh, I in all honesty, sir, I couldn't I couldn't address that.
▶ 1:23:15I don't know anything about the the Have you seen instances where the an organ or organization like the ACLU has sued and prevented staff from being able to do their jobs with using the proper restraints? Have you seen that nationally? Uh I think that there's a lot of questions in that in that issue.
▶ 1:23:36I think that ensuring it's BOP's job to ensure both the safety and that the safety of the staff as well as the inmates and I think limiting them in order to be able to do that is always dangerous. Undermining the respect that law enforcement should be uh should be given I think leads to uh leads to kind of the sense of you know the idea that people are taunting guards and things like that. I think that that also undermines uh security.
▶ 1:24:05But I also think that we have to remember that when people are within our custody, we have to do everything to make sure that we're that we're remembering to treat them as people and remembering to that they still have rights while they're in there. So I think it's a very difficult challenge that BOP has make sure that they're balancing both of those sides. Yeah. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Next, next we will hear from the gentleman from the great state of Georgia, Mr. Hank Johnson. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:24:35uh Chairman. You know, my daddy uh rose to the number three spot in the uh Bureau of Prisons back in the early 1960s. He was uh head of uh his responsibility was uh pardons, classifications, and parles.
▶ 1:24:55He uh became a corrections officer, one of the first black corrections officers in the country back in 1950 uh when he was actually in 1949 when he was recruited out of Morris Brown College in Atlanta uh to uh go to the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary and become one of the first blacks uh to be a corrections officer.
▶ 1:25:19He became the first uh parole officer out at uh Levvenworth, Kansas, where he was transferred to back 53. And um and so BOP, Bureau of Prisons, kind of runs in my blood. I used to work at the Federal Home Loan Bank building is what it is now, but that used to be the uh Bureau of Prisons, just a a stones throw away from here.
▶ 1:25:49And uh and I'm alarmed that we would be having this hearing today and we don't even have the um current BOP director to testify. Republicans actually, if Republicans actually cared about oversight, uh they would have the director here or rescheduled for a date that he was available.
▶ 1:26:11President Trump fired the former Bureau of Prisons director on inauguration day and a third of the BOP's senior leadership quit. In its misguided efforts to chase efficiency, the Trump administration ended a longunning incentive pay plan, cutting officers and other employees pay by 25%. Which will only worsen the existing staff shortages. But it's not just human infrastructure that's in disrepair.
▶ 1:26:41It's also the physical infrastructure which has uh been a problem for years. Mr. Pertil, you are aware that in May of 2023, the Office of the Inspector General published an audit of BOP's efforts to maintain and construct institutions. And that audit described hazardous and crumbling infrastructure including infrastructure problems that have led to the closure of BO BOP facilities. Correct. Correct.
▶ 1:27:12And uh you are also aware that BOP leadership has expressed concern about underfunding for maintenance and repair efforts and a resulting backlog of projects. Right. I I know that they have a significant backlog in deferred maintenance. And Mr. Milton, how does the failure to maintain BOP facilities affect the health safety health and safety of BOP staff and uh inmates?
▶ 1:27:42Um, thank you for the question. And may and I may take some liberties and also express gratitude for your grandfather's daddy, I'm sorry, your your father's legacy. Um um certainly the the uh you know facilities have have put the health uh when you say grand granddaddy makes me feel good that much mean I'm I'm looking young up in here.
▶ 1:28:06You you look so young that it it had to be your Well, I tell you look I'm I'm I I do want a answer to that question but I'll contact you later. I want to proceed on. Okay. Sorry. Sorry sir. Luster now. Um, instead of putting money into our existing prisons to fix them, this week, Trump ordered federal agencies to rebuild and open Alcatraz, uh, which closed in 1963 and is now a tourist site.
▶ 1:28:36Alcatraz was shut down because, um, it was too expensive to run and, um, all its supplies had to be bought by a boat to the facade. I mean just total the place doesn't need to be reopened but it's a vanity project for for the president. He would waste money there Mr.
▶ 1:28:58Pertil and he would also waste he also wasted money that could have gone to um uh enhance facilities at uh existing BOP facilities. But he poured money into a failed uh effort to make Guantanamo Bay uh a place where uh it could accept uh a bunch of um uh some some being American citizens who were later deported uh to El Salvador.
▶ 1:29:29We don't need a uh BOP that manages facilities that uh are the same as uh as what we have in El Salvador. And I'm out of time now, so I will uh yield back. But we have uh dysfunction in the BOP at this point. The gentleman yields back. With that, I'll ask the gentleman from the great state of Alabama, Mr. Moore. Hey, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:29:56The Trump administration reversed several of the Biden Harris BOP related policies through executive order. Most notably, President Trump signed an executive order 14168 requiring that all federal inmates be housed according to their biological sex and ending any provision of taxpayer funded gender affirming care for any federal inmates. Uh Mr. Patel, how did the previous administration of the Bureau of Prisons justify allocating limited taxpayer resources towards gender transition?
▶ 1:30:27In all honesty, sir, I couldn't answer that. I don't know what their justification was. What would be a better use of those funds? Well, what I will say is is that I strongly support the uh the current executive order that housing should be based upon biological sex. I think that that's I think that there's a lot of agreement across multiple corrections systems, not just at the federal system, that that's the way to go. I believe that's the way California currently operates.
▶ 1:30:51Uh and if you can get agreement between a a an executive order from the Trump administration and and Governor Nuome's administration, there's probably we can safely say there's some bipartisan consensus on that issue. And I think I do think that for facilities, both security and for the safety especially of the inmates that that that that's the correct policy. Yeah, I would agree 100%.
▶ 1:31:12And and one thing you you mentioned in your testimony and I we looked at this in the state of Alabama is the inhome confinement as opposed to having them locked up in a prison, a federal prison in this case. Can you elaborate a little bit on the cost effectiveness of that? I think that was something Bill Barr and the CARES Act, they kind of came out with and it seems like to me that makes a lot of sense for the taxpayers and for the inmates. Yeah, I I agree. The the cost savings there is enormous.
▶ 1:31:37It's it's a just over $44,000 a year to house uh a an inmate in a federal correction institution today. I don't have numbers handy, but I'll get them to you on exactly what uh the differential there would be on home confinement, but it is substantial. uh and as long as you you approach that topic from a public safety standpoint that you're very careful about who uh moves to home confinement, I think that the bar requirements were very well thought through.
▶ 1:32:07I think that they also ensured that we maintained the rehabilitative piece of corrections is extremely important. The punitive piece is also important and I think requiring a significant portion of their sentence to have been served was what Mr. Bar was trying to get at with that piece. So, I think that that's I think that's a very viable option given that 54% of the current federal prison uh population is deemed uh low low risk to recidivate by BOP's own pattern tool. Yeah, I agree 100%.
▶ 1:32:35Like I said, if they're nonviolent, maybe um there's an opportunity to revisit their their their case and say, "Hey, you can be confined at home." And in the state when we were doing the study, it seemed like we could house them for a month for the cost of one day in a prison. And so, we were looking at as we were overcrowded as well. So, um, real quick question. Mr. Potter, I want to ask you this and, uh, the 119th Congress has already acted, uh, with the introduction of, I think, HR41046. It's actually the Mark Fischer Memorial Act. Are you familiar with that?
▶ 1:33:05I'm not familiar with it. Okay. What what happened? We actually had a a Bureau of Prison employee that was just going through the mail and I think it had so much fentanyl on it that it it killed him. And so, uh, we're looking at ways that we can actually have this this mail screened offsite. And so, I think that probably is something we're trying to get. I think we got 56 co-sponsors right now. So, we're working on moving that through. So, hopefully we can make some Any of you familiar with that at all? Okay.
▶ 1:33:31It's something they asked me to to talk about and I wanted to to to make it aware to the panel that we're talking about that. But, uh, Mr. Wild, what uh what is the number one thing that you see when you're what what really changes when you you start meeting with folks who are incarc incarcerated and and through your process? Um what do you think is the most impactful thing that we can do to help folks not recidivate? So Prison Fellowship utilize what we call an ecosystem model. It's recognizing that within a correctional environment there are multiple stakeholders.
▶ 1:34:02And so through programming like the prison fellowship academy and the warden exchange um uh correctional leaders as well as the incarcerated population can actually go on parallel journeys and not look at one another as the problem um but both become participants and partners in how do we create a more rehabilitative and constructive culture to both live and work in and so we utilize all kinds of programs that bring multiple stakeholders together. Do you see your recetivism rates drop dramatically?
▶ 1:34:29our recidivism rate within the state of Texas uh is uh over it's a a reduction in over 50% from a control group within that state. One of the things we've done in Alabama and it's actually skills training in prisons so that as those individuals are incarcerated they actually develop a skill whether it be a a mechanic certification HVAC honestly all kinds of industry they can go into we we've seen that have a tremendous impact as well as faith I think so with that Mr. Chairman, I yield back. I'm out of time.
▶ 1:35:00Thank you. And Mr. Chair, I do have a unanimous consent. Without objection. Under Trump, US presidents offered gender affirming care. This is a New York Times article from October 164. Thank you. Next, if I've got this right, ranking member, we have Mr. Rascin from the great state of Maryland. Thank you, Chairman Van Drew. Um, Mr.
▶ 1:35:24Potter, is there evidence that private prisons are run better than Bureau of Prison There isn't any evidence that I've ever Um, Mr. Milton, uh, the president wants us to hand out uh hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses and incentive pay to ICE agents.
▶ 1:35:46I think the number we saw the other day, we discussed it here in committee, was $858 million to ICE agents, which uh according to Mr. Moscowitz's calculations came to something like $45,000 per employee of ICE.
▶ 1:36:03And yet at the same time, um we're reading articles about how retention incentives are being cut right now for Bureau of Prison uh up to 25% effectively reducing their salaries when you look at it from an annual perspective. So what kind of effect is this having on Bureau of Prisons correction officers?
▶ 1:36:32Thank you for the the question ranking member asking. you know, the uh what we've come to to realize when we talk about officers, uh correction officers tend to be um you know, amongst the lowest paid. Um and when those bonuses were removed, um it certainly did dis should I say the incentives were removed, it it disincentivized a number of correction officers. Um and certainly it has an impact on morale.
▶ 1:37:01Uh, and so we we believe that investing in in correction officers um will also increase morale um and have a better impact um on on those who are incarcerated as well. The um the president has told us recently that uh the border has never been safer.
▶ 1:37:21Can you think of any reason why we should be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on bonus pay for ICE employees while we're reducing uh retention bonuses uh and incentive pay for Bureau of Prison employees? No, sir. What's that going to do to retention moving forward? I'm I'm sorry. I I What's it going to do to our ability to retain the best Bureau of Prison employees?
▶ 1:37:49Um certainly it it makes it a challenge. um you know removing those bonuses uh you know can speak to a lack of willingness to invest um uh in in this case people um and what I think one of the things that's missing in the conversation is that whether we're talking about uh people who are incarcerated um or in this case correctional staffs these are people um and at the center of all of the solutions uh we should be placing
▶ 1:38:19people at the forefront as much as we're talking about the facility facilities uh and in this case bonus pay. It's really about the morale of people and how it's impacting um you know those who are directly impacted. All right. So, it's going to be profoundly demoralizing to the staff there. Now, we've heard also about an increase in lockdowns taking place because you've got the people who are the most effective and necessary employees resigning because their pay is being cut.
▶ 1:38:47And these lockdowns can last weeks, even months, I've heard in some cases. What impact what impact does um the lockdown have on prison safety, on access to programming, on the mental health of uh incarcerated people? Yeah. Well, when when when lockdowns happen, um there is a a decrease in access to to medical care.
▶ 1:39:15uh there's a decrease in access to to families and so the you can't reach out to families and families don't know what's going on during those lockdowns and and it creates a panic um and tension within the facilities. Um and then you know certainly the implementing the lockdowns certainly had places pressure um on on staff as well.
▶ 1:39:37And so um it it creates a a a a system uh where where folks are are now ill at ease um uh dur during that process. And so it it so that there's this rhetorical lip service to the people who've got the toughest jobs actually in the prisons, you know, managing very difficult conditions.
▶ 1:40:00And yet the president issued an executive order wiping out collective bargaining purportedly for more than a million federal workers, including all of these Bureau of Prison um employees. What is what effect will that have on the staffing crisis? Um and what does it do to the morale of people who work as correctional officers? Yeah. Um certainly collective bargaining, you know, establishes a formal process for for advocacy uh for people for the workers.
▶ 1:40:30Um and so by removing that formal process uh where folks can can sit at a table um across from each other um and and find common ground on issues that are impacting uh their quality of life. Um, it certainly removes that opportunity uh to do that in a in a formal way. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you. The gentleman from the great state of Arizona, Andy Biggs. And thanks, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:40:59And, uh, thank you to our panel again. Um, so, Mr. Patell, you wrote, "CO should be included more in the corrections process and their experience and insight should inform public policy." And, um, Mr. Mr. Potter, do you agree with that? Absolutely. And uh Mr. Patel, you also wrote, "No one has more insight into an inmate's likelihood of successfully reintegrating into society than the CEOs who interact with them daily." Do you also agree with that, Mr. Potter?
▶ 1:41:30Absolutely. Can you give me an example um on where an idea that you think as you represent cos um both on the policy and in particular uh if if you have policy on how to address inclusion of cos into the um procedure of determining reintegration into society.
▶ 1:41:55Yeah, I believe uh anytime there's a consideration for early release, I think you should include those men and women that know firsthand how that person has conducted themselves throughout their time. I can tell you from my own personal experience, I've worked with many people that I totally believe should have went home.
▶ 1:42:18They were ready to go home, but I was not allowed to weigh in on that And I do believe that when you talk to those that are closest and that spend the most time with these individuals, sometimes 16 hours a shift, sometimes longer, they know more about that individual than anybody else in the system. Mr. Patell, how would you uh integrate the a CEO into that um process?
▶ 1:42:48I do think coming up with a mechanism to have their voices inputed into that. I think that they can both be on an individual level uh within the institution on u on what that individual person is is what their likelihood is to recidivate and what what uh what security level they need to be housed at and and all of those things. I think that that can be taken become part of the case file uh for the individual incarcerated.
▶ 1:43:15But I also think that their voices at a more broader policy level uh could also let's let's let's get on the on the adjudication of whether someone should be released early in reentry first before we get to broader policy. Sure.
▶ 1:43:29And so what I would suggest is that there's an action item for maybe all four of you is the is to come up with a process and a procedure to include be more inclusives of cos and um if I if I could I'd ask you to get on that and get us something back. Um maybe Mr. Potter, Mr. Patell in particular, you can sit down and and do something because because one of the ways that that happens is if Congress is aware of it and can actually um build on that.
▶ 1:44:00So, uh I I I would challenge you to to do that. Um and Mr. Wild, what do you think are the factors that most likely predict whether an inmate will return to prison? So, we often say that uh nothing magic happens uh upon release. um what you were doing the day before is a good indicator of what you'll do uh afterwards.
▶ 1:44:22And so we've been purposeful in trying to implement communities of practice um where people practice um values of what we call good citizenship. Um they're seeking out pro-social community um that they're taking responsibility that they're transitioning from being consumers to producers. Um no longer does the world happen to an individual, but they happen to the world.
▶ 1:44:44um and uh you know that those are some of the greatest factors and we're we're situated to come alongside and provide those skills as well as the support uh for people's change journeys. So um and you've indicated that you've had challenges perhaps working with BOP and getting into the system and using your program. Again, I would I would urge Mr.
▶ 1:45:05Patel I mean and I we I I think that that if we don't come out of here with at least a few action items today um we're not going to this we will not have achieved as much as we need to and I would encourage us to find a way to work with both the cos and the and the faith-based uh to see how we can integrate them more fully into helping Mr. Milton. Do you think that might be helpful?
▶ 1:45:34Sounds like a good solution, man. I've never I've never heard anybody say that about any of my ideas before. Glad to hear that, Mr. Milton. Well, I appreciate uh your efforts and I hope that we can actually uh begin to take some steps to get some action items done and completed to facilitate um certainly the reduction of recidivism because I think that would make all of us happier. So, that you go back. Thank the gentleman.
▶ 1:46:01I will now ask the gentleman from the great state of Tennessee, Mr. Conn. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and it's an honor to be here on the day with a high IQ ranking Um, none of y'all are from the Bureau of Prisons as I read over here. And that's just a little disappointing that nobody here from the Bureau of Prisons, but let me ask, does anybody have any idea how many trans people were in the prison system, a federal prison system?
▶ 1:46:29are normally the population percentage-wise. Nobody has any idea. Anybody have any idea about what problems existed with the trans people in the prisons if they were not done according to their biological sex, but whatever way they did it with their problems and what occurred, it's not an issue. So, but trans people in the prison system is not a big issue to any of your opinions. Is right? Not or something.
▶ 1:46:58Will the gentleman yield for the answers if you have? I will I will yield. There 156,000 inmates in the Bureau of Prison. NPR has calculated there are 23 that would be impacted by this executive order. That is 0.01% of the inmates. And yet this is what our Republican colleagues want to talk about. But that is a great deal greater number than are in the NCAA. I think there only eight in the NCAA.
▶ 1:47:30So, it's much more pressing issue than the NCAA. Uh anyway, that was just a Does anybody on this group and I know you're all have you're trying to do good work and all that and I think that's important and you're feel that the first steps program is working or have any opinion about the first step program. Mr. Pell, do you have an opinion about efficacy? Well, I I have a very strong opinion about the first step act. I think it's working. I think there's much more that still needs to be done on the implementation side.
▶ 1:48:00Uh but I think that it was well founded in how it was structured and I think that Bureau of Prisons is moving forward with trying to do that. I think increasing the recidivism reduction programming, especially the evidence-based programming within the facilities is critically important. Most most of these folks are coming back home into our community and we want to make sure that we've done everything that we can to both to rehabilitate them which is part of the mandate of the of any correction system. that I was pleased as a member of this committee during Trump one that I supported that.
▶ 1:48:30One of the few times I've supported Mr. Trump and in Trump Two, he seems to have forgotten about it a bit because Miss Peters, who he fired on day one as head of Bureau of Prisons, I think was very much involved in implementing the First Step program. So, and since then, they've had they're on their third interim director. I think it's a tough it's a very difficult job and an important job. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:48:52Wild you your prison fellowship uh how many times in your prison fellowship have you had you all have who become religious and and either convert their religion or accept religion or something else. So in all of our programs they are open to people of any faith or no religious preference. That's never a criteria to get in to graduate or you know to to participate. We say that our programs are a place for anybody to belong regardless of what they believe.
▶ 1:49:21Um, and so if a person does come to faith in in Jesus, it's because they were compelled by something beautiful that they saw and how people loved them with where they were at. Does that happen very often? Um, I I would say so, but there are also people who go through our programs who are Muslim, who graduate as a as a Muslim, who are better citizens. Yeah. I saw a movie last week. It's an old movie from Mr. Goldman's hometown. Uh, the movie was called uh was Cafe Society. And in Cafe Society, there's it's a Woody Allen movie.
▶ 1:49:51There was a Jewish gangster and he offed a few people and he was in prison and he had talking to his sister on the phone uh and told her how he was converting and becoming Christian Catholic and becoming and he said that he was going to be executed in three days and he thought it was gave him something to look forward to. He didn't want to think of that being the end. and she commented.
▶ 1:50:14She said, "Jews don't necessarily do that, but if they did have that idea that you went somewhere after you were killed, that would they get more customers." So, there is something to it and there's something to look forward to if you do accept Jesus or accept some different perspective, especially if you're in Uh, any of y'all have any opinion about prison guards and and the the difficulty? How many how many times are prison guards attacked by prisoners? Is that a very common occurrence?
▶ 1:50:45Mr. Potter. Yeah, I can tell you that um I have been attacked. Uh but mostly when something else is going on and we try to calm the situation or break the situation up. So, it's a unintended consequence, but it's a consequence and it happens. And I've uh I've had a number of things happen throughout my career. I've had two neck surgeries, cervical neck surgeries. have had a shoulder surgery.
▶ 1:51:15Um, so it does happen. It's part of part of what we do. I think I'm overtime, so I I I can't ask you about Alcatraz, which could be Mara West. Thank you. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize the gentle lady from the great state of Florida, Miss Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here with us today.
▶ 1:51:39I I believe that criminal justice reform is one of the critical issues for this committee to work on and appreciate you all being here. Most recently, uh I was honored to introduce the Fresh Start Act, which is a bipartisan bill that supports helping individuals reintegrate back into society in gaining access to employment, housing, and educational opportunities. And want to thank my colleague, Representative Cam Leagger Dove, for co-leading this effort with me.
▶ 1:52:09In addition to advancing reform, it's critical that Congress continues to conduct meaningful oversight from the Bureau of Prisons to ensure our correctional facilities are secure, cost-effective, and safe for our correctional officers. But I'd like to begin uh Mr. Patel by going back to something that you just commented about which was you referred to evidence-based recidivism reduction and I would love to hear your thoughts on some of the tools and strategies that are evidence-based that help us reduce rates of recidivism.
▶ 1:52:40Sure. We do know we we do know a fair about when people are more likely to recidivate. We we know that employment is one of the most important factors that someone can ever have uh in determining whether or not they're going to recidivate once they're released from prison. I think that the evidence-based there there are criminologists who are in a better position to speak to exactly what goes into evidence-based programming than I am. I know that the bureau has a process by which they examine programs before they uh before they determine that they're evidence-based.
▶ 1:53:11I think in terms of oversight, really really encouraging the Bureau of Prisons to get more of those programs online, get them approved, get them behind uh get them into the facilities, get them behind the walls, get them working, I think is is is critically important.
▶ 1:53:27Uh I know that some things and I and I'm very sympathetic to the idea that we need these programs to be evidence-based because sometimes uh some of the activities that get labeled as as recidivism reduction are probably not all that effective. So I I think it's important to have that distinction drawn. Thank you. And Mr. Wild.
▶ 1:53:47From the inmate rehabilitation standpoint, have staffing shortages affected the availability of programming and those types of opportunities for those who are Yes. Um in several locations where um staffing is is low, um you have to be able to escort volunteers. Uh you have to ensure that as people are coming in to offer those programs that they're kept safe and secure as well. And so yes, staffing shortages do impact programs.
▶ 1:54:17And Mr. Potter, shifting gears a little bit. Uh last Congress, I introduced the uh Lieutenant Ovaldo Alberati Stopping Prison Contraband Act that would have increased penalties for smuggling cell phones into prisons and will provide oversight uh of the Department of Justice to ensure our these policies when in place are being upheld. Can you speak to the issue of increased contraband being smuggled into prisons and specifically the dangers associated with cell phones?
▶ 1:54:48Yeah, there's been all kinds of contraband that have been smuggled into prisons one way or the other, whether it's over the fence or through the gate. And cell phones in particular are uh in my mind pretty dangerous because uh well there's a way of communicating from across the compound. There's a way of communicating with folks outside to do all kinds of nefarious things. Uh it's not just a communication to see how you're doing.
▶ 1:55:17I mean most times those cell phones lead to also it's a level of contraband that's bought and sold that also leads to higher tensions and things like that. And in particular, when we are analyzing officer safety and how to ensure that we are doing everything possible to ensure the security and safety of correctional officers, our cell phones one of the tools that can be utilized to actually uh develop plans or threats against correctional officers and
▶ 1:55:47others who are working in prison security, I believe. So, yes. Now, what are some of the things that you think we could do to help deter or reduce the amount of contraband entering into our prison systems? Well, I think there's a lot of innovation that's taken place over the past several years. And there's a lot of facilities in a lot of states that are uh taking those steps like cell phone detection and drone detection and things like that.
▶ 1:56:16when people come in, if you can detect what kind of contraband they're bringing in or if there's contraband coming from over the fence or however, if you can identify what that is or stop it or disable it, I think those are all mechanisms that are extremely useful. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank the gentle lady. Next, we have I recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. Goldman. Thank you very much, Mr.
▶ 1:56:46Chairman, and I would ordinarily appreciate this hearing very much because the Bureau of Prisons uh is a critical component of the Department of Justice that is woefully underfunded and struggling to implement their mission. But we must be living in fantasy land.
▶ 1:57:03We're trying to have a normal hearing o doing oversight of the Bureau of Prisons when the president and Elon Musk are taking a hatchet to the bureau, cancelling the collective bargaining agreement for all of the correctional officers, eliminating retention bonuses for the correctional officers while making sure that every masked undercover Gustapo agent with ICE gets
▶ 1:57:33a bonus. In fact, the bill you passed last week, the Republicans passed last week, would give $12 billion in in pay increases and bonuses to ICE and CBP and nothing to the Bureau of Prisons. And yet my colleagues sit over there acting as if they're really interested in correcting the Bureau of Prisons and all the problems that we have there.
▶ 1:58:03Then put some money where it is because we all know that's how you correct the problem. That's how you implement the First Step Act. That's how you implement and fund the Federal Prison Oversight Act. A bipartisan bill that we passed last Congress that has not been funded and can't do anything. You're passing a partisan reconciliation be bill. You have the purse strings.
▶ 1:58:26And yet we're supposed to sit here thinking that you're really serious about making sure that we're helping the corrections officer. It's just bogus. And let's take the Metropolitan Detention Center in my district in Brooklyn. Since 2020, there have been 17 inmates that have been killed. And the staffing shortages are devastating and have been devastating.
▶ 1:58:53There have been numerous numerous lockdowns simply because there is not enough staff. So inmates are kept in isolation for multiple days at a time because of staffing shortages. There was a crackdown by the FBI and the Department of Justice in March.
▶ 1:59:1025 inmates were arrested for all sorts of uh various smuggling efforts, violence, violent assaults with uh scalpels and uh as my colleague from Florida said, smuggling cell phones. There's not enough staff to actually monitor what is going on. So what did they do at MDC?
▶ 1:59:34Well, under President Biden, they implemented a retention bonus of 35%. That enabled them to hire 87 additional people for that one location, the most in years and years, and it decreased lockdowns. Since August of 2024, there have only been three days of lockdowns due to staff shortages.
▶ 2:00:01So, you would think that's a productive way of boosting employment, boosting staffing, which I think every single one of our witnesses has said is an essential part of addressing the problems in the Bureau of Prisons. So, what does President Trump do? Gets rid of the retention bonuses. Gone. Gets rid of the collective bargaining agreement.
▶ 2:00:28How on earth do you think you're going to increase staffing by taking away all of the correction officers benefits, by taking away their retention bonus which proved to be successful and is necessary? And yet we're here talking about implementing recidivism programs. It's a joke. So Mr. Biggs, you asked for some action items. I'll give you some action items. Can I can I ask you a question, Mr.
▶ 2:00:58After I give you the action items? I'm happy to have a colloquy. One, restore the retention bonuses so that we can hire more corrections officers to implement all of the laws that we want to implement in a bipartisan way and so we can keep the inmates safe. Two, restore the collective bargaining agreement rather than unilaterally cancelling a negotiated collective bargaining agreement that gives the uh corrections officers very important protections. And three, let's fund the First Step Act.
▶ 2:01:28Let's fund the Federal Prison Oversight Act, which has not been funded. There are three action items that you can take back to Mr. Trump to try to actually address the issues at the Bureau of Prisons, and I am happy happy to yield to you. Yeah. Can you tell me um you you mentioned that the Brooklyn facility had 17 homicides among inmates from 2020 till what 2024? What administration controlled BOP that entire time? Did you do anything?
▶ 2:01:57You didn't do jack crap. You'll bet. You have no idea what I did. Time is Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Partell, any idea how many inmates in federal prison are not US citizens? I actually do not know that, sir. I'm sorry. Mr. Potter, do you have do you have hazard a guess or no? I do not know. Mr. Wild, I do not know. Uh, Mr.
▶ 2:02:26Milton, no, sir. Well, we we under I think you all testified there's staff shortages. The gentleman from New York just talked about staff shortages. Maybe if there weren't 24,000 federal inmates who are not US citizens, maybe we wouldn't have a staff shortage. Maybe if the administration before this one hadn't just released into the country people who came here illegally and actually detained them, they wouldn't have committed some of these crimes and wouldn't be in federal prison.
▶ 2:02:55You think maybe that would help with the situation on staffing that you all brought up that the gentleman from New York just raised? Mr. Petrell, I'll start with you. No, I do, sir. And I I uh and I'm assuming that most of those are under an immigration detainer for when they do come out. Uh, I don't know about most of them, but that's that's a question I'd have too. Do you do you understand that are they under the detainer when they're released that at least ICE will have the ability to go? They're not just going to be released into the country. That's my assumption, but I do not know those numbers. Mr.
▶ 2:03:24Potter, do you know if that if that's actually the case with these 24,584 Bureau of Prison inmates are not US citizens. You know how you know what percentage that represents the federal inmate population? No, I do not. 16%. Maybe we wouldn't have a staff shortage if this would have been dealt with in the previous administration. This is something President Trump is trying to deal with going forward. 16%.
▶ 2:03:50Do you know if that if there uh if there are detainers for these individuals who would be subject to that uh currently in in uh going on currently? Mr. Potter? No, I don't know. Mr. Wild? I don't know. Mr. Milton, any idea? No, sir. Well, what we do know is what happened a few years back. I think this is goes clear back to the Obama administration.
▶ 2:04:18I sent a detainer to the board of prisons or Bureau of Prisons, excuse me, uh, regarding the individual who wound up killing Kate Steinley. So, many of you remember this situation. Uh, the BOP didn't honor that. instead released this individual to San Francisco to law enforcement there who then to the jurisdiction there who then released this guy to the streets who wound up killing Kate Steinley. So I think this is something that we should look at here.
▶ 2:04:45This this this huge part part of the population in our federal prison who are uh not citizens. And again I appreciate the work and we've known about prison prison fellowship for forever and the good work you all do. We appreciate the work you're doing with inmates. I think this is one thing, one area where we could make make some change.
▶ 2:05:04Again, I think the the Trump administration is is seeking to do that and certainly not following well, we're not having near the near the migrants come to the border now that were coming in the previous administration, but certainly not releasing people into the country like was done before, which then gave the opportunity for this situation to happen with some of these Um, any comments on on on that, Mr.
▶ 2:05:28I think they may help situation, but I uh restoring collective bargaining unit rights is an important issue. Treating people uh like professionals is also important. So, do I think it'll solve the staffing problem? I don't think it'll solve the staffing problem. I think there's a systematic issue here.
▶ 2:05:52And I think when it comes to how you value the people that work there and how they feel valued is what's going to keep them there. Fair enough. Any other thoughts from the the rest of the panel? Not. I'll yield back to I'll yield my time back. Uh I I'll yield I'll yield my remaining time to the chair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for this hearing and thank all of you for the work you I will you yield a time to me. Can I will yield to Mr. Biggs? Thanks. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:06:21I I do want to point out in relationship to uh the gentleman from New York's comments, um I I take what he says with with gravity and seriousness, but um I I know thing.
▶ 2:06:38when his side of the aisle controlled the House, the Senate, when they controlled the presidency, when they controlled the Bureau of Prisons, um we had massive amounts of um problems with the Dublin Corrections Facility and we investigated and kept going at it and eventually that had to closed. Um but they didn't do anything to fix that. That's my pro my point.
▶ 2:07:06I think that there's something that we could you can piss each other off all you want, but if you're going to get something done, you got to find a place that you can work together and get it done. And and some of the rhetoric I've heard today indicates my colleagues just don't want to do that, and that's a shame. Yield. Gentlemen yields. I will. And Mr. Chair, I've got a unanimous consent. Um without objection. Thank you so much.
▶ 2:07:31This is the GAO report that says that there was a 33% decrease in non-citizens incarcerated in from 2017 to 22. Thank I now recognize Mr. Mosquitz from the great state of Florida. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I begin, I have a unanimous consent request. Without objection, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an article by Emma Bucher titled Doge Musk oversight of federal workforce causing frustration for FCI Thompson staff.
▶ 2:07:59Without a Without objection, I have another unanimous consent request. Without objection. Uh, you want me to read it or Not really. Not really, but go ahead. Do you want Can I text it to you later or All right. So, unanimous uh consent requests. Obviously, I'll I'll give them to you, Mr. Chairman. I'll skip that. Uh, all right. Let's begin on my time. Uh, so thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:08:24Um, and you know, I I appreciate this hearing and it's always a pleasure uh to go after Chairman Jordan. Uh, and you know, I've been listening to my colleagues talking about investment personnel shortages. Uh, and of course, we're talking about that in a time where Doge has its fingerprints over all the agencies, including your own. So, at a time where we're talking about personnel shortages, we're actually firing people. We're convincing them to leave. We're retiring them, right?
▶ 2:08:52Uh, and don't get me wrong, like you guys need more resources, right? You need more people. You got crumbling infrastructure, right? We need to be tough on crime, tough on criminals. I get all that. Uh, and there's definitely need to be serious reforms, right? This is a serious conversation. But, you know, I earlier, uh, I was listening to the ranking member and she brought up uh, something about Trump talking about Alcatra.
▶ 2:09:16And of course, look, this is just another distraction to divert attention away from the tariffs or rising prices or the struggle on Main Street. But since we're having a hearing on prisons, it's lucky timing for me. So, three times more expensive than any prison to operate in 1959, Alcatraz was. Okay. It needs about $250 million to shore up the infrastructure and utilities. All food and water has to be barged in. Sewage has to be barged out.
▶ 2:09:46The facility is almost a hundred years old. And so I don't get it. In the days of Doge, where we're cutting budgets, we got to find savings. Now we're going to what? We're going to cut Medicaid and SNAP so that we can pour money into into Alcatraz. First of all, have you been to Alcatraz recently? It literally is a it's a rust box walking around. You need a tetanus shot just to go into the building. I do. We still give tetanus shots or has RFK gotten rid of those? I I can't I can't keep up.
▶ 2:10:15Well, and so listen, where did the president get this idea all of a sudden, right? Where did he get the idea? Perhaps he was watching Escape from Alcatraz, right? And I I brought boards because some people are visual learners. Perhaps he was watching Escape from Alcatraz by by Clint Eastwood. Uh actually, funny part about that, it was actually on television in South Florida. It was on PBS South Florida over the weekend when Trump was at Mara Lago.
▶ 2:10:45In fact, he made his announcement just hours after it aired. You know PBS, the programming that he's trying to get rid of. So, just in case you're keeping up, right, it's two dolls for girls and zero Elmo's. Okay. Uh but maybe maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it wasn't maybe it wasn't that. Maybe he was watching The Rock with Shan Connory. You know this one? This is where Sean Connory goes back to Alcatraz because he originally escaped Alcatraz and he needed like an expert on on chemical weapons.
▶ 2:11:15Maybe the the president was just Netflixing and chilling like watching watching watching The Rock, which is not to be confused with The Rock, right? That's a different that's a different person. And then the president's really excited about these sharks, right? He's talking about all the sharks and the person escaped. He lost his clothing. So, you know, sharks, they don't have laser beams on. They don't have laser be, but maybe maybe maybe the sharks are are going to be there. So, this is just all ridiculous.
▶ 2:11:42But even but then all of a sudden after after that, we we heard like, "Oh, we're going to tariff the movies." Well, hold on a second. Why would we tariff the movies? This is where the president is getting his ideas from. We can't tariff the the policy idea making of the presidency. And look, I know what my colleagues are going to say. They're going to say, "Jared, just let the president cook. This is 40 chess he's playing." And and I'm going to say, "Maybe he's just watching late night movies.
▶ 2:12:12Perhaps he's just watching late night movies. In fact, we're we're told he got this movie tariff idea from another no other than John Voit. You know, the guy who was in that great movie and I don't know if you you've seen that." And so this is the ridiculousness that's going on. So I want to end with this. Mr. Ple, you run a faith-based organization, right? No. Oh, Mr. Wild, you run the faith-based organization. Sorry.
▶ 2:12:41You think it you think it's a good idea to reopen Alcatraz? You think the faith-based community has been pounding the table to reopen Alcatraz? Uh, prison fellowship stance is that prisons should be safe, effective, efficient, and uphold human dignity. Okay, let me make it easier for you. All four of you, which one of you think we should reopen Alcatraz? Just raise your hand. Okay. So, for my colleagues who sometimes, you know, are a little slow, no one raised their hand. Okay? Nobody. Not a single witness.
▶ 2:13:10None of your witnesses here think we should reopen Alcatraz. And so, you know, we have real problems in the prison system. It does need reform. It does need money. We can work on that together. But the president puts out Alcatraz as a distraction. Thank you. The gentleman yields. I am going to yield to myself. Uh I you know I had prepared remarks but before we get into them so much has been said on the other side. I just want to address some of that.
▶ 2:13:39First of all I want to actually first of all I want to say Mr. Moscowitz you really do have talent. You really do have potential as a full-time standup comic. For real. You're good. You're good. It's fun. It really is enjoyable. Um No, you I I think you got some of your own material, too. And you embellish a little bit, but it's still fun.
▶ 2:14:00Um secondly, on a serious note, um earlier in the meeting, we were discussing the ranking member for the committee of the whole uh something about deporting babies and US citizens and ICE and detaining criminals. Let's be clear. First of all, that's not your issue. It's not why you're here. I'm sorry we had to digress to that. This is not a reconciliation meeting. I really do want to talk about the Bureau of Prisons and how we can make it better.
▶ 2:14:28And I really started the meeting out by saying I was extending my hand to see we're going to disagree on some stuff, but let's see if we can work together to make it better because what those folks are going through isn't good. We can do better. Quite frankly, it's been going on for years on both sides of the aisle. So, let's not let anybody be holier than now in this. Okay. Um, and we're not deporting babies, by the way.
▶ 2:14:51I have to bring it up because it said, and we're not deporting, and I know somebody's going to disagree with me on the other side, probably the ranking member, and that's fine, US citizens. There were a lot of folks that shouldn't have been in the United States of America that were committing crimes and doing bad things that nobody appreciated. uh obviously that committed murders, disfigured people, raped people, hurt people. Some of them were on the terror watch list. We're not speaking about immigrants. We love immigrants, but we don't like those people.
▶ 2:15:22And yes, the border is much much better now than it was. And yes, sometimes we might need some help from the Bureau of Prisons, but ultimately it makes it a lot better for them to not having lots of bad folks come into the United States. I just want to again, you know, focus on associating with the remarks of Mr. Biggs. We really want to do try to do something together here. It's it's my goal. And I know it's hard and I know it's highly partisan, but I think there are some areas.
▶ 2:15:51We're not going to agree on everything. We know it. We have divergent ideas for the future of the United States, but there may be a few points where we can come together to try to make it better. And that's what I hope for, and that's what I hope we would do. Finally, Mr. Goldman made a remark too about I think I heard it right and if I didn't, I apologize, but I believe I did about jack booted Gestapo agents as far as ICE.
▶ 2:16:18The men and women who work for ICE are oh so similar to people that work for corrections. They're just doing their job. They want to save America. It's a hard job. It's a brutal job. It's not easy. They've been underststaffed, abused, and mistreated for years. I don't like it in corrections, and I don't like it in ICE. We shouldn't do it anybody.
▶ 2:16:42So, no, they're not Gustapo agents, and that's abusive and inappropriate to refer to them so much. And I do call out Mr. Goldman for doing that. I wish he was here. Finally, um, real quickly, because I used up a lot of my time, but if you give me a brief answer, Mr. wild. Um, what structural or reforms would give you and your teams the stability and the access to really serve incarcerated individuals? The work you do, I like it was referenced before by Mr. Con.
▶ 2:17:12When you believe in something and you believe you can get better, I've been around corrections a lot and some of the most successful work that I have seen done is faith-based. Whatever the faith is, just the faith that there's something greater and bigger and better for all of us. Quite frankly, we all need that, including those of us who sit up here. But tell me, how can we make it better? Um, first of all, we would ask for the full implementation of the tenants of the first step act.
▶ 2:17:39Um, prison fellowship is uh situated to be able to provide these services to uh those who live in prison, those who work in prison, family members, and to create better neighbors um inside and outside. Um we believe that we have something um really important and valuable to be able to offer to this conversation and we're ready to do that. And so uh with the First Step Act, we would uh encourage um the inclusion of other faith-based organizations. I I hope that this committee in some way can help.
▶ 2:18:08That's something I believe I'm hopeful that across party lines that we can agree on that there's a place for God to help people rehabilitate regardless of what D or R is next to our name. Um, Mr. Potter, would you agree and I think this is what I got from your testimony and then I'll be done, but I want to just summarize it and you can say yes or no, that we don't actually listen to the correctional officers enough. We always do this in everything that government does.
▶ 2:18:37we don't listen to the people who are most directly affected. Um, do you believe within the current budget we actually could make it a lot better? And finally, uh, recidifism. You recidism, that's a hard word for me. Uh, do you a do you agree that the quality of the facility actually affects that? I know it's three questions real briefly. Yes, I do believe I'm looking at you. Yes. Go. No, you're correct. You're correct. Okay.
▶ 2:19:03Yes, I do believe that listening to the men and women that do the work is important and they're the second largest stakeholder in the system. So any any reform that's going to happen is going to affect them as well. Thank you, Mr. Potter. I yield back. With that, I will recognize the general lady from the great state of Georgia, Ms. McBth. Thank you, U Chair.
▶ 2:19:30And I first I do want to say in listening to all of you today, there are resounding themes that we hear from each and every one of you uh about um what we should be doing and the problems that we're facing within the BOP. And I do appreciate that rank that um Mr. Biggs, our colleague, is looking for action items, but actually the action items are already right before us. Let's make sure that we are fully funding them the BOP uh and the First Step Act and also the Federal Prison Oversight Act.
▶ 2:19:58And I'd like to ask each of you gentlemen just yes or no. Uh would you agree that these programs are a step in the right direction? Mr. I agree whole I agree wholeheartedly. Mr. Wild, absolutely. Mr. Patell, I do. I think implementing the first step act is critically important. Thank you. And Mr. Potter, I absolutely agree. Thank you. Because we agree as well. And so my questions uh briefly are going to be for Mr. Milton and also for Mr. Potter today. Mr.
▶ 2:20:27Milton, we know the federal oversight, prison oversight act, um we know it needs to be instituted. We know it needs to be funded. Nothing can be done until you know those things are done. Can you tell us do you believe that it would have prevented another occurrence FCI Dublin if they if it was I believe it could have um ranking member avoided that.
▶ 2:20:52um particularly as we talk about the the transparency um that's built into the oversight act, the independence is built into the into the act um could have sent early warning signs um to this honorable body um to to do something about it. Thank you. And so and Mr. Potter, you you kind of talked about the human toll um that you spoke of uh you know in terms of covering the BLP staff.
▶ 2:21:20Um can you kind of talk about the solutions um that we might be able to to encapsulate to find these sol these solutions? What can we do basically to kind of improve the mental health and the wellness of you know our corrections officers and staff that are in the BOP?
▶ 2:21:42I think uh in any good wellness program, the employees have to be able to help create what that looks like for them. And I think in every instance in every different state, one wellness program might look different than the other. It shouldn't be something that's just implemented uh by the administration and then they're dragged into it and convinced that it's a good wellness program.
▶ 2:22:10They have to be hands-on and they have to help develop that wellness program from the ground up. But there also needs to be a cultural survey and I totally believe that uh the Bureau of Prisons needs a complete cultural survey to be able to identify where those needs are going to be and then and that should be done by a third party um someone who's trusted and uh and I do believe in uh in oversight as well. Thank you. And Mr.
▶ 2:22:40Forell on what you said in your opening remarks, I really want to thank you because a lot of the funding that we secured, bipartisan funding that we secured under the Biden administration under the care act, CARES Act is what has been able to facilitate a lot of what we were trying to do uh you know to restore faith in our border, you know, border prison system. And I'm I want to thank you for acknowledging that that funding through the car's act is what we were on the right track at that time.
▶ 2:23:10Um, and Mr. Potter, one last question for you. Would these solutions for correctional officers make our prisons safer and better places for inmates as Yeah, I believe it would. Could you kind of expand on that for us, please? Remind me of exactly the the question that you're asking. Okay.
▶ 2:23:33So, the solutions that we that you spoke about in terms of really helping to support uh and and covering the board of prison um to kind of improve the mental health problems that we have with our staff um in the border of prisons and our correction officers. Would these solutions for our correctional officers make our prisons safer and better places for inmate inmates as well? Yes, thank you.
▶ 2:23:59I do believe it would because when someone comes to work and they're um they're going to conduct their jobs in a much different way. I think uh when people come in and they're exhausted and they're not healthy, um well, they're not going to be able to do the kinds of things we're asking them to do when it comes to helping those incarcerated find success as they leave.
▶ 2:24:27So I do think it makes a direct impact on how somebody comes to work and how they're treated in their mental health state. So in closing, we're hearing from every witness here. Whether invited by the Republicans or the Democrats, all of you are calling on us to get BOP the funding that it needs, fully implement the First Step Act, and fund the Federal Prison Oversight Act. And I thank you for that. I yield back. Gentle lady yields. I recognize a gentleman from the great state of Missouri. And Mr.
▶ 2:24:57Chair, before we do that, I've got a UC um unanimous consent request. Without objection. Um what happens with US citizen children caught up in Trump's deportation? Without objection. That's a CNN article. I've got another one. It says, "Newborn US citizen and Guatemalan mom detained." Without objection. That's an NBC article. And my last one is judge says two-year-old US citizen appears to have been deported with no meaningful process. Without objection, political article. Thank you so much, Mr. Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:25:26I have a UC as well. Without objection. Federal women's prison in California played by rampid sexual abuse to close. Thanks. Without Mr. Rand, you're got you're going to get your chance. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, Mr. Dr. I guess I should say. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, you had Mr. Goldman's quotes slightly off.
▶ 2:25:53Uh you you quoted him as saying jack booted Gestapo agents. No, he called our hardworking men and women of ICE masked Gestapo agents. And you know, with that kind of attitude toward federal law enforcement, no wonder in 2023 the Bureau of Prisons had a 21% unfilled position rate.
▶ 2:26:18But in 2022, the California Department of Corrections report found that 34% of transgender offenders who requested transfer to women's prisons were registered sex offenders. In the UK, that was more than 70%. California was allowing men who were convicted of raping women to suddenly identify as transgender and then be moved to women's prisons where many times they continued their abuse.
▶ 2:26:48Female inmates like Dana Gray who woke up in the middle of the night to a 6 foot one male roommate pushing his intact genitalia in her face. Alyssa Camholes, as a child, was routinely raped by her stepfather and his Hell's Angels buddies. She eventually was uh convicted and sentenced to prison under the Three Steps, the the the the Three Strikes Act.
▶ 2:27:16And she referred to prison, federal prison, as her safe space where men couldn't hurt her anymore. But then, I'm sorry, California prison. That was until one of the men who was among the abusers was placed in her room at Central California Women's Facility. The same prison had placed condoms in every day room.
▶ 2:27:40The issue of men in women's uh, the United States is behind the times. Um, in the in in in in the UK in 2023, there was a reversal, of course, and the UK banned so-called transgender women who have male genitalia from being placed in women's prisons.
▶ 2:28:01During the debate in the UK, a prison manager was on record saying that the majority of transgender women, so-called, began identifying as transgender after they interacted with the criminal justice You would think that the 2003 law, the Prison Rape Elimination Act, would protect female inmates from male abusers.
▶ 2:28:27But the Obama administration perversely used this very law as authority when he introduced a policy through the Transgender Offender Manual that required an inmate's transgender status to be considered when deciding whether to place them in a women's prison.
▶ 2:28:45The Biden Harris administration further abused the intent of PRIA by his new version of the transgender offender manual that allowed inmates to receive hormone therapy, trans sex transition surgeries, and other medical treatment related to their general gender identity.
▶ 2:29:02So, at a time we have a $36 trillion debt and a deficit over $1.5 trillion a year, the Biden Harris administration is paying for sex change operations in our federal prisons. So, I would I would ask each of you um uh in your opinion first, Mr. Potter, does allowing men identifying as women to serve in women's prisons um make prison rape more or less likely?
▶ 2:29:36I would only be able to guess on that and say more likely, I would assume. Yeah. Thank you. Um, do you do do you believe women in federal prisons deserve to be protected from prison rape under Priya? Absolutely. Same question for you, Mr. Patell. In your opinion, does allowing men who identify as women to serve in women's prisons make prison rape more or less likely?
▶ 2:29:58Well, as I said earlier, I think it makes all just it places women in a much more vulnerable position, whether it's physical violence, sexual violence, and in your opinion, as you heard today, it's a it's there are so many issues facing the Bureau of Prisons that this population is infantessimal, right? And I think it's a small population.
▶ 2:30:16At the same time, one one offender, one convicted rapist being released into a women's prison among inmates who are smaller, more vulnerable, less muscle mass and so on. Yeah. Could do a lot of damage even though it's No, I agree. A relatively small problem. I didn't mean to minimize that. Yeah. No, I know you're not. And you know, and again, our Democratic colleagues, you know, do minimize the problem.
▶ 2:30:41Mo, it's only x the number of people, but there about over two over well over 2,000 inmates who identify as transgender in the federal prison system. Not all of them are not all of them are men and women's prisons by any means, but the potential potential is there. I believe it's not our Democrat colleagues say somehow they're implying somehow we Republicans are obsessed with this issue. They began it under Obama. They continued it under Biden. I think we're returning to sanity under President Trump. Thank you very much for your testimony.
▶ 2:31:11I yield back. Gentleman yields back. I recognize the ranking member of the committee, uh, Miss Crockett from Texas. And Mr. Chair, before I begin, I've got two UC's. Um, video shows masked ICE agents detained two outside Douglas County Courthouse. Without objection. And ICE agents and ski mask snatched migrant out of lawyer's car. Without objection. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I have a UCI. Without objection. Yeah.
▶ 2:31:38Department of Justice statement by Kletus Peters, director, Federal Bureau of Prisons into this committee July 23rd, 2024. Without I now recognize Miss Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. Okay. I don't really know where to begin. We've got a lot of ground to cover in about five minutes. So, let's go. Um, I've got three statements that I want to know if you agree or disagree with, and I want to just go down the road. Yes or no?
▶ 2:32:07Does cutting pay typically assist in recruiting a workforce? Yes or no? No. Generally, no. No. Thank you. It sounds like a low IQ implementation to me. So, let's go to the next one. Does poor working conditions assist with recruitment? Yes or no? No. No. No. No. Sounds like another low IQ implementmentation to me.
▶ 2:32:36And finally, I'm going to start with Mr. Potter because I don't know how this is going to go. Does union busting help with recruitment? No. I I know nothing about unions whatsoever. I'm sorry. I I don't know anything about unions either. Okay. No. Okay. So, again, another low IQ implementation. I just want to be clear that the American people should know that these are all Trump 2.0 policies. So when we say that he's failed, let me tell you, we got receipts and those are some of the receipts.
▶ 2:33:06So when we start talking about um this pay, I think that we've talked about the fact that there was a 25% up to a 25% cut in um recruitment bonuses or ret uh retention bonuses, but I want to make sure that people understand the numbers. I want y'all to know what the numbers are. Um it looks like on average in 2023 the average CO for the BOP made $57,000.
▶ 2:33:36So now we're talking about potentially up to a 25% cut in that. Now, let's transpose that with what they don't want to talk about is what we did last week, which was reconciliation, where in their bill, they decided that they wanted to add this big number as an increase for bonuses for ICE agents. What that translated to was bonuses of $44,000 for each ICE agent.
▶ 2:34:04So, we're talking about ICE agents getting an additional $44,000 per person while on average when we talk about our CEOs at the BOP only making 57,000 and talking about cutting up to 25% of that. That is why we're outraged. That is why we say that this is a joke because you can't sit here and continuously underfund an agency and then expect it to overperform. So, let's talk about the underfunding.
▶ 2:34:34We have talked about immigration for a reason. Not because um we think that it makes sense to just talk about immigration all day every day. It seems like our colleagues on the other side of the aisle want to do it. But it is relevant to this conversation. You know why?
▶ 2:34:50Because according to um this particular document from the Guardian, it says as it relates to a partnership between BOP and ICE, two agencies that have generally operated separately means people accused of civil civil immigration violations are being imprisoned in harsh environments of the federal penitentiatories run by prison guards. right now.
▶ 2:35:12I believe that the number was the most recent number that I had was that they had approximately 700 um persons that were being held for ICE within the Bureau of Prisons. And guess what? Do you think they gave the BOP any extra dollars to be able to take care of those folks? They didn't. I'll help you.
▶ 2:35:35It says Congress provided no increase to the BOP's salaries and expenses account in fiscal year 2024 despite the staffing crisis that has been linked to prisoner deaths and a cascade of operational problems at the agency. So, we talked about rape, so let me get to rape. It seems like it's a bit of hypocrisy, but that's not anything new.
▶ 2:36:00To say that you want to protect victims of rape and sexual assault and then allow Trump to gut funding for the Prison Rape Elimination Act resource center, a center that trains prison sexual assault auditors, tracks the results of prison rape, the prison rape elimination act investigations, and provides resources to imprison sexual abuse survivors.
▶ 2:36:24So my question is and I ask everyone if you can answer can we all agree that rape and assault of prisoners is vile and completely unacceptable. I agree. I agree. Of course. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And the last thing that I'll say is that according to the BOP, there have been a total of two individuals that have received gender affirming surgery while in BOP custody.
▶ 2:36:51There have been a total of four that were refer four others that were referred and were determined to be medically ineligible. So, we're gonna have all this talk and all these fights about trans folk and we're talking about literally two surgeries. I'll yield. Gentle lady yields. I will recognize the gentleman from the great state of North Carolina. Congressman not. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:37:19Uh in response to what we just heard, I think that the discussion on immigration is relevant for a number of reasons, many of which were not mentioned by Miss Crockett. Uh it's by some estimates uh concluded that the previous administ administration spent hundreds of billions of dollars on illegal immigration and the discussion that we are having today centers on 10, 20, maybe even $30 billion.
▶ 2:37:44The previous administ administration spent money on educating, transporting, medicating, housing illegal immigrants at the taxpayers's expense. And as we now know, the Bureau of Prisons expense. Um, it's a disgrace. You all are due more funding. Sure. Uh, illegal immigrants are due far less funding. But, you know, one of the the points that I'm hearing over and over and over today is the point about the need to rehabilitate.
▶ 2:38:11And while that is certainly one consideration that we should all be focused on, perhaps the main point of consideration that the Bureau of Prisons uh is is therefore is to protect the American citizens from dangerous criminals. Yes, rehabilitation of the criminal is key, but protection of the public is first and foremost. And to that end, one of the unfortunate realities that we have in this country is that we have a tremendous crime problem.
▶ 2:38:38Just as one example, in the year 1990, just 4,500 people died because of drug overdoses. And depending on which statistics you look at, averaging it out, sometimes it's up to 125 to 130,000 people have died from drug overdoses from the years 2020 to 2024.
▶ 2:38:58Whether it's gangs, cartels, or other organized criminal organizations, they have in large part arrived here and embedded themselves in the country because of the open border welcomed approach to illegal immigrants that the Democratic Party has championed. And as a federal prosecutor, I saw that the crime not only was exacerbated outside of jails, I saw the crime reach far inside of jails as well.
▶ 2:39:24Uh I know that you all need no education when discussing the dangers that criminal u gangs and organizations pose inside and outside of jails. So my question is Mr. Purle to you first. How can we assist the BOP in combating the ongoing criminal activity inside the Bureau of Prisons? Specifically as it relates to an ongoing connection to outside organizations.
▶ 2:39:50when I was sentencing people, there was often no interruption in criminal activity, whether it's cell phones, uh, bribing prison officers, whatever it may be. What can we do to assist um, you and or the BOP in stopping criminal activity once someone is sentenced? Well, I I think that Mr. Potter might be even better equipped to question, but good, but uh, but I will definitely take a crack at it. Don't mean to dodge. I do think that uh controlling the the key the key thing there I think is controlling the communications process.
▶ 2:40:20I mean I think that that's that's how ongoing criminal enterprises are still able to operate even though we've got people incarcerated in our facilities. And I do think that the the the porousness of some of our facilities uh to uh to communications devices coming in as well as contraband other many other forms of contraband coming in. But those those the other forms of contraband don't really get to the issue that you're talking about in the same way as the continuing activity. So I think it's really the communications piece.
▶ 2:40:48Uh and I think that that's a combination of of better security within the facilities. It's probably technological fixes as well in terms of what you what you can do in terms of signal damping. Sure. And things like that. Mr. Potter, same question. Yeah, I would agree with everything that's been said. There's a lot of mechanisms you can use to prevent something from coming in and detect it once it's in. I think uh the staffing level makes a huge difference.
▶ 2:41:15The way you monitor, the way you track, the way you Does the danger that that uh facility officers face deter people from staying a long time? Does that make sense? So, does the threat inside the facility weaken the environment that people are are working in? Yeah. If it's more dangerous inside, of course, it makes it, you know, much more d and the risk versus reward. Yeah. You have to reward people in the right way if you want them to come into that. And Sure. Yeah.
▶ 2:41:41And if I could just get very quick answers, what's the total amount of dollars that you think is needed to fix the Bureau of Prisons? Not just the facilities, but total repair. I would not have a guess. Billions. 10 billion, 15 billion. I wouldn't I wouldn't have a guess. How about you? It would be it would be a genuine guess. Uh just give me a guess. We know that we know we've got $3 billion in deferred facilities cost. So that's I mean that's baked into the cake.
▶ 2:42:11We know that we've got um four to 6,000 full-time employment positions that aren't filled $10 billion. In all honesty, I I would have to I couldn't even hazard a guess. Uh, but I do think that there's even even realigning what we do currently do in spending. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of good things that can be accomplished. Sure. Mr. Wild, I don't mean to jump over you, but I'm assuming you don't have an answer for that. Mr. Milton, if I can get one answer, what's what's the number that you you would put? I fall in the same category.
▶ 2:42:39I don't I don't know that I'm in position to to to give a number. Um, but I do know that it's takes significant investment. Mr. Speaker, I yield back. Gentleman yields. I recognize last but not least by any means the gentleman from the great state of Texas, Mr. Gil. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and and thank you to the witnesses for for being here and testifying and taking the time. Um, Mr. Purle, thank thank you as well.
▶ 2:43:09I want I want to start with you. Um, given the decline in in personnel across BOP facilities and we've got nearly 4,000 vacancies, do you believe it was a wise decision for the previous administration to put any resources at all towards gender affirming care for BOP inmates? As I said earlier, I think that it's such a small percent of the population. It's it's it's not the core issues that BOP is facing, right?
▶ 2:43:37And I I certainly believe it's not a core issue we should be spending money towards. Is it also the case that BOP facilities are experiencing widespread deterioration and are in need of maintenance? According to the attorney general's uh inspector, the department's inspector general, literally every single facility faces deferred expenses. Deferred maintenance expenses. Yep.
▶ 2:43:59Do do you think that there's additional stress that comes with perhaps some of the logistical challenges and safety concerns of housing transgender in inmates with the opposite sex? Um, and perhaps maybe that contributed to some of the low retention rates and hiring rates experienced at the BOP. In all honesty, I couldn't say once once again, I think that there are so many issues that go into that into the staffing issue. Did it play a part? Very well could have. Uh, but there are so many factors there.
▶ 2:44:28What what about some of the anti-law enforcement uh rhetoric that we hear on the other side of the aisle uh including from the former vice president who once praised the defund the police movement. Do you think that that's contributed at all to some of the staffing challenges at BOP? Well, I I think I think the fact that law enforcement, prosecutors, corrections officers, I think that there's there's been an unfortunate trend. We've seen it in law school recruiting for prosecutors that there's been an unfortunate trend to kind of demonize the entire field.
▶ 2:44:58Uh regardless of wherever that has come from, uh I think that that has been harmful. I think it's I think it's unfair to the people who go into that line of work. And and what role do you think Doge can play in identifying waste and fraud at the BOP? That is beyond my kin. I'm so sorry. Any guesses? Well, I you know, as with as I tell my kids, as with any very very large institution, there's there's going to be waste and fraud.
▶ 2:45:24Even even under uh even when vast majority of people are working in good faith, it never hurts. It's always good to pop the hood and check the oil and take a look at what's going on. So, I think that the Doge process could I think it may turn out to be very very beneficial. I think a lot of it is is going to be able to inform you in your oversight activities to make decisions going forward. Got it. Thank you very much. And and Mr. Chair, with that, I'll I'll yield the remainder remainder of my time back to you.
▶ 2:45:55Thank you. So, uh, with that little bit of time, first of all, I'm I really do appreciate you all being here. It's a long, long day. I didn't even give you a chance for a break, and I probably should have. I was remissed, but it was glad because now we're done. Um secondly, I'll say as I did before, I hope that we can move forward in some areas, in some ways, find common ground.
▶ 2:46:18Uh and thirdly, and the one thing I will mention with there's a little bit of time left, um I've actually interviewed some corrections officers uh at multiple locations who've come to me in my office. I you I wouldn't call them whistleblowers because they didn't, you know, trigger the whistleblower act, but told these stories, you know, we're kind of saying that there's like one or two people in the whole country with transgender issues.
▶ 2:46:40They're still doing intake and it cost a lot of money on those that want to change uh their sex, that want to be transgender. This is from corrections officers who directly work there, who have good reputations, whom I know that we're explaining what's going on. Number one, that costs money.
▶ 2:46:59Secondly, the other issue and the reason that it costs money is because as you know I mentioned in fact my facility back home um has to cater to some of that because when they mix with the rest of the population unfortunately there are issues for them for their own security and safety. So it makes things more complicated.
▶ 2:47:19It makes issues more violence is prone to happen and it also costs more because of the specialization they need both medical if they go through it all the way as well as correctional in other words they need more protection and they need to have special status and special help. So yeah, it does cost money and though it's not just like one person in all 50 states, it's not. In fact, if you talk to most of them, almost any facility will tell you of some of the issues they're having with that.
▶ 2:47:49And the real issue is um I don't know what else to say. I'm not saying they should be, but they they still have their desires very often and it really is tough on the women. If we care about women, then we should care about this issue and some of the terrible things that are happening. With that, it concludes today. Mr. Chairman, I have two UC's. I'm sorry. Um the first one I asked unanimous consent to enter into a record into the record an article.
▶ 2:48:19Um transgender inmates are more likely to be victims of sexual assault. This was by CBS News. That's true. To the extent of 35% of the victims of rape are transgender. Without objection. And then the final one is courtesy of Mr. Wild.
▶ 2:48:35Um this is from um Prison Fellowship, the nation's largest Christian nonprofit serving prisoners, former prisoners and their families, is applauding a major funding increase for Priya, which as of now, um this administration has actually defunded all of the Priya resource centers. Without objection, their care cost a lot. Protecting them cost a lot because they are apt to have this problem.
▶ 2:49:01And in some cases, preventing the certain percentage of them from doing harm cost a lot. With that, it concludes today's hearing. We thank our witnesses for appearing in the committee today. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the record. Uh and witnesses or additional materials can can be recorded as well. Without objection, this hearing is adjourned.
▶ 2:49:30Do you get to keep your your plaque over here? I don't know.