▶ 0:03:07Good morning. Subcommittee will come to order. Today, the subcommittee will receive testimony in the posture of the United States Army. First, I'd like to welcome our two witnesses, Secretary of the Army Daniel Driscoll, uh, and General George Randy Randy George, Chief of Staff of the United States Army. Mr. Secretary, congratulations on your appointment. I look forward to working with you. General George, thank you for joining us once again.
▶ 0:03:32The US Army is a force that remains the backbone of our nation's defense and the critical pillar in ensuring global stability. Today, we will assess the Army's readiness to meet the challenges of the increasingly complex security environment, particularly as we look uh toward future conflicts, including those that may unfold in the Indo-Pacific theater of operation, where strategic competition continues to intensify.
▶ 0:03:59The Army's role in the future fight is evolving rapidly, shaped by emerging threats and technological advancements. Among these, a proliferation of drone technology stands out as a gamecher. Drone warfare offers both unprecedented opportunity and significant vulnerability. Our adversaries are leveraging drones to challenge traditional battlefield dynamics, requiring robust investment in counter drone technology, protect our soldiers, and maintain operational superiority.
▶ 0:04:30Modernization remains a cornerstone of the army's transformation, and I commend the progress made in recent years through the next generation combat systems, combined soldier lethality, and advanced network capability. However, progress must be matched by scrutiny. We must ensure that these efforts align with the demands of tomorrow's battlefield where agility, resilience, and technological edge will define success.
▶ 0:04:56We must ensure that the investments in our army reflect the needs of a multi-dommain fight and strike the right balance between conventional capability and the specialized forces required for hybrid and asymmetric warfare. The Army has begun to implement a comprehensive transformation strategy to rapidly capability, optimize force structure, and eliminate waste and obsolete programs.
▶ 0:05:22I'm interested in hearing how you will implement the strategy to achieve a more efficient and more effective army. Today's hearing is an opportunity to address these issues head-on, to hear from our witnesses, and to chart a course that ensures the US Army remains the world's preeminent land force. I look forward to a robust and insightful discussion. With that, I recognize distinguished ranking member, Miss McCullum, for her opening remarks. Thank you for the courtesy, Mr. Chair. Mr.
▶ 0:05:51Secretary General George, welcome to the committee's discussion uh about the Army's plans to transform for the future. As the chairman pointed out, we're excited and interested in hearing your plans. As I said yesterday in our hearing with the Air Force, fiscal year 2026 budget process is off to a very rough start. We have just over four months left until the end of FY25 and the department still has not agreed upon a final spend plan with Congress.
▶ 0:06:20I know there's plans floating out there, but they haven't been agreed upon. The skinny budget for next year has been released, but we don't know what the numbers are based off of yet. These are rumors. The full budget may not even be released until June. All puts us in a very difficult position getting our job done. And I know um both ranking member Delores Delura and Chairman Cole want to get our job done on time.
▶ 0:06:48And that's why yesterday we were unable really to discuss the Air Force and Space Force budget priorities in any detail. They just don't have the information. Likewise, it's disappointing that we're going to be unable to discuss the Army's priorities and program programming details for FY26 at this time and I know you share that concern. So, I hope you will reach out to the committee to the chair and I uh with details as soon as they are released.
▶ 0:07:14Last week you both presented the Army's transformative initiative which will include changes to warfighting capabilities and force structure and program activities and we do need to make changes and I know you want to move quickly very quickly. However, any successful transformation proposed by the services has only going to be made possible with an open dialogue with the United States Congress, the people of this country. That means you must work with us with industry and with military communities involved.
▶ 0:07:44Bypassing any of these vital steps will only create questions and create delays. Something I know you don't wish to have happen. And I know you want to put a put to rest any confusion. And I know it's not your desire to bro provoke anxiety, but not doing this in in a in a forward transparent manner could land up doing exactly that.
▶ 0:08:08So I look forward to hearing more details on the army's trans transformation of initiative and how this differs from implementing the army's 2030 initiative. What are the differences? So Mr. Secretary, you also have proposals for agile funding, counter small unmanned aerial systems, network capabilities, civilian workforce decreases, and activities on the southern border. Your plate is full.
▶ 0:08:32So this committee needs to understand in depth the costs that will be associated with them as And as I said yesterday in a meeting uh a hearing that we had when reference to go golden dome this committee does not fund concepts. I don't do that in my personal life and I do not do that with the taxpayers money. So the sooner you have more details the happier we all will be.
▶ 0:08:54As I said yesterday with the air force I'm deeply concerned that cuts to civilian personnel will have detrimental effect on the executive uh execution of contracts and other vital paperwork. We are already living with the impacts of what happens when civilians take a buyout rather than to uh take a hand up to say that they'll continue to serve. What does that mean? It means contracts aren't signed on time.
▶ 0:09:20Missions don't get done on time and the program falls farther behind and that means it will cost the taxpayers more money. I'm also concerned that these cuts will shift responsibility of uh completing these tasks onto the same military personnel that you would like to see out in the training field and we would too. So again, I welcome you both to the committee and I look forward to hearing your testimony, Mr. Chair. Thank you again for the courtesy. Thank you and I appreciate your testimony.
▶ 0:09:48I'd like to now turn to the chairman of the full committee and my good friend Tom Cole. Mr. Chairman, the floor is yours. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And uh let me begin with a couple off-the cuff remarks and associate myself with my good friend the ranking members remarks in terms of just information. And look, we're very understanding new administrations never meet the deadlines or later. They can't I mean you don't have people improved in place.
▶ 0:10:12So, we understand, but and I've had this discussion and it's been a very positive discussion uh with OM and said the quicker you can get us this stuff, the better job we'll do. But the longer it takes, the more likely we are to miss our own uh you know, deadlines and stumble into another CR or something like that. And we don't want to do that. I know you certainly don't want us to do that. Uh and uh and I do want to thank you and you were kind enough to call. I know the chairman got a call.
▶ 0:10:41Well, I assume the ranking member probably did too to let us know a little bit about the transformative initiative and what you were releasing. Very helpful, but I too look forward to seeing more detail as that goes down the road. But I appreciate what I saw. I certainly didn't have any objections to what was laid out. Was very positive and very impressed. So again, thank uh thank you both for hearing here coming here. The hearing comes at a pivotal moment for our national security as we face an increasingly complex and volatile global landscape.
▶ 0:11:09Among the challenges before us, none looms larger than the rising threat posed by China. With its rapid military modernization, expanding global influence, and assertive posture in the Indo-Pacific, China presents a strategic challenge that demands our full attention and robust response. United States Army plays a critical role in deterring this threat and if necessary, prevailing in any conflict that may arise. Today, I look forward to hearing how the army is equipped to address this challenge head on.
▶ 0:11:39We must ensure our forces are postured to counter China's growing capabilities, particularly in the realm of long range strategic fires. The ability to strike with precision over vast distances is a necessity to maintain our it's a necessity to maintain our competitive edge and protect our interest across the globe. I'm eager to understand how the army is prioritizing the development and deployment of these capabilities to keep pace with our adversaries.
▶ 0:12:06Equally critical is the state of our munitions inventory. Recent global conflicts have underscored the importance of a resilient and well stocked arsenal. We cannot afford to be caught unprepared whether it's ensuring an adequate supply of artillery shells, precisiong guided munitions or advanced missile system. Um, I know that you will provide us in this committee with a candidate assessment of where we stand today and what investments are needed to bolster our readiness for both the near and long hall.
▶ 0:12:37Um, thank you again for being here and I look forward to a productive discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Secretary Driscoll, please take five minutes for your opening remarks. Thank
▶ 0:15:16that every dollar that the United States Army receives from Congress contributes to the mission of defending the nation. I am committed to this because I am committed to our soldiers. They are the ones who will face the enemies of the nation. They will never quit and they will never accept defeat. I ask that you join me in my commitment to their success. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. Thank you, General George. Please. Uh thanks, Chairman. Chairman Calbertt, Ranking Member McCullum, Chairman Cole, distinguished members of the committee.
▶ 0:15:45Thank you for the opportunity to talk with you all today. I'd like to start off by saying that um we're both extremely proud of our army. We're proud of our troops that are out in the Indo-acific, on the southern border, in the Middle East, in Europe, and of everything our army has done over the past year to respond to wildfires, floods, and a bridge collapse. We have formations all around the world conducting missions and exercises and innovating with our partners and allies.
▶ 0:16:12When not deployed, our units are conducting tough, realistic training at their home stations and our combat training centers. Our army is a professional team that remains focused on its warfighting mission and young Americans want to be a part of it. This is evidenced by our strong recruiting numbers. This year, we have already met over 90% of our recruiting mission, and we still have our most productive months ahead of us. And while I'm proud of our army, I also know we have work to do.
▶ 0:16:42I know the world is changing. Commercial technology is rapidly evolving, especially AI and autonomous systems, and this is impacting the character of war. We understand that we must transform to stay ahead of our adversaries. And we need to get better by 2026 and 2027, not 2030.
▶ 0:17:04Over the last year, using existing FY24 funding, some of our units transformed in contact, which means they experimented with changing how we train, fight, man, and equip while they were deployed or in training environments. This was a great proof of concept and it confirmed that our formations are capable of rapidly improving their lethality. One transformation in contact brigade in Europe was 300% more effective in lethal targeting during their training exercise.
▶ 0:17:35Transformation in contact taught us some valuable lessons about what our army should be buying and how we should be buying it. And we are just getting started. We are going to make the changes we can at our level so that we can continue to dominate the modern battlefield. For instance, we will cancel programs that are obsolete or not what our war fighters need. We'll develop and adapt war-winning capabilities and buy modular open system architecture designs that can be iteratively updated.
▶ 0:18:04And we will cut and consolidate headquarters. For instance, we're going to reduce GEO structure, cut 10,00 positions from the headquarters DA staff, and add in modern business systems that will make us more effective. And finally, we will power down authorities and funding so that commanders in our fighting formations have what they need to make their teams and their communities successful. What I've learned from being in this seat is that it is our job as leaders to do what we can with the budget that we have.
▶ 0:18:33I've been talking about the need for agile funding for UAS, counter UAS, and e electronic warfare. We need more flexibility with those and more. Technology is changing too rapidly and we've got to be able to buy capabilities rather than specific programs so that we can always get our war fighters the best available tech and equipment for the modern battlefield.
▶ 0:18:57This is where we could use Congress's We are quickly approaching our army's 250th birthday. This will defend has been our motto for 250 years and I'm looking forward to celebrating our long legacy of duty. More importantly, our soldiers are ready today to defend our country and we will do our part to ensure they have what they need to be successful in that enduring mission. Thank you for your support and we look forward to your questions. Thank you, General.
▶ 0:19:27I just want to emphasize what the ranking member and the chairman of the full committee pointed out that we uh our primary obligation of course is get these bills done. Uh and we can't do that without information uh to to do that. So hopefully that comes very soon and I know that you have to work with OM to to help facilitate that. But uh we're pretty much at a standstill until we get this information and we do not want to do another CR.
▶ 0:19:57So please help us from having having that happen. Uh something we've learned on the uh battlefield in Ukraine is that horrific war continues. In the beginning the primary ordinance was used as you all know is you know typical artillery 152155 and things have changed. Now, drones have taken over the battlefield.
▶ 0:20:20The ongoing conflict in Ukraine has highlighted the proliferation of drones as a transformative element of modern warfare. Everything that moves pretty much dies on that battlefield. Both state and non-state actors have employed unmanned aerial systems for reconnaissance, precision strikes, psychological operations, demonstrating their cost effectiveness and strategic Secretary Dris, I have a two-part question.
▶ 0:20:50Can you outline the Army's current investments in drone technology, including specific programs or initiatives aimed at matching or exceeding the capability we observed on the battlefield? And given the increasing sophistication of enemy drones in Ukraine, what steps is the army taking to accelerate the development and deployment of counter drone technologies such as electronic warfare, directed energy systems to protect our forces and maintain a tactical edge.
▶ 0:21:21Um chairman, one of one of the things we're doing is um we are starting training on drones at the very beginning of a time a soldier joins. So, I was at Fort Jackson last week and the these were soldiers who've been in the army for five weeks and one of the things I saw during the training is they were putting drones up and as they were going through their lanes, what they were doing is trying to figure out what is the overhead, what is the concealment required to avoid being seen overhead.
▶ 0:21:47And so each of these soldiers, five weeks in, were building just incredible um camouflage for themselves and their gear. And then what they were doing after they finished the lane is they were going and reviewing the footage so that they could say what can a drone see from the sky. And this absolutely blew me away. And so what we are trying to do at a high level is push down these lessons that we are learning from Ukraine and from our u men and women in our saggy that are absorbing the lessons.
▶ 0:22:15Get them to every or as many soldiers as we possibly can and start to iterate and learn from them what works and what doesn't. We have 3D printers printing drones in a lot of our formations across the army. Um, and they are learning incredible lessons that are paired and piggybacked off what's happening in Ukraine. And then for how we're trying to get this into the hands of developers and manufacturers, we're inviting them into the field with our soldiers so they can capture these lessons in real time.
▶ 0:22:41Um, and we are empowering units to purchase small numbers of these and test them and then pass the lessons out to chain of One of the challenges I know that you're very much aware of this is that 90% of the components that are made uh for I mean for the the drones themselves are made in China. Uh including about 100% of the motors. Uh what plans do you have to send to the uh manufacturing community?
▶ 0:23:11Is it as a buy signal to do something immediately on that? Yeah, I agree with you chairman. Just um back to your previous question. I mean, a lot of this is transformative. We have to you have to change how you train and operate. That's just as important. Um Secretary mentioned that um we're going to have to change how we're organized. We're doing that. We're getting ready to go to the new mobile brigade combat teams. Those command and control nodes are 85% smaller than they were, you know, just a couple of years ago.
▶ 0:23:40Um and then we do have to change how we buy things. This is a big reason why we're asking for I think we need to buy capabilities. Brushless motors is exactly what you're talking about and we need to have the flexibility that we're buying. We are buying off the blue list. So there is an approved list. So we're not buying, you know, Chinese parts that go into our drones. I fully believe we can make a lot of this stuff. We can partner with industry to do these things. We're just going to have to approach how we buy things and be much more agile in our approach to do that.
▶ 0:24:09And I'm confident we can come over and share um details of how we would do that because I'm confident with American Innovation we can we can get um back on the road we need to be. And chairman um one of the things we're trying to do and I talked about this in my confirmation hearing is give a very strong demand signal to the American workforce, the American innovators, the American manufacturers. We the United States Army are improve. We will improve with this committee's help as a customer.
▶ 0:24:36We will expand the base of um drone manufacturers who we are buying from in our own nation and from our ally from our allies and and what we hope and what we hypothesize is with all of the outside funding that exists in the venture capital world paired with small and medium businesses who um who are hungry to partner with us, we're going to open the aperture of partners and we think the American um defense industrial base will respond. Thank you, M. McCullum.
▶ 0:25:06Thank you. Um gentlemen, last week you announced, as I said, the Army transformation uh initiative, and you called it a strategic approach to deliver critical warfighting capabilities, optimize America's uh the army's uh force structure and conduct program evaluation and better align with requirements. Totally agree with that idea. Totally agree with it. I am not here to protect the status quo. I am not here to slow things down when it comes to innovation.
▶ 0:25:33the chair and I have been working on that and I credit his his leadership and and early thought on this. Um we work on this on on everything. Um but I am going to address uh some of the things that have been um released by the army with some of the the programs that there's a proposal to cancel because I don't I won't speak for all the committee members but I know the chairman and I and our staffs have fielded lots of phone calls and lots of questions.
▶ 0:26:02So for example, the Brooker lightweight tank which uh while accelerating the development of a new main battle tank, improving turbine uh the improved turbine engine program, cutting the futur tactical unccrew air aircraft system, the robotic combat vehicle program, and finally the joint tactical uh vehicle uh and and and Humvey and I think you make some good cases for why uh these programs need to be reviewed, relooked at phased out
▶ 0:26:32um or or just cold cut as as you're suggesting. But those come with a lot of of questions and anxiety from people who are working on those programs and companies who've made investments in those programs. Not saying we shouldn't do it, but just saying let's let's put our let's put our our thoughtful hat on here for a second about how we go about announcing and moving forward with some of this.
▶ 0:26:59So, I just had um breakfast with uh the joint uh chief um just just an hour ago and we were talking about how we need to look at some of these manufacturing facilities and figure out how they can be part or work with small some of the smaller companies and primes retrain workforces and all that. So, that needs to be part of the discussion we have up here. Um, and then there was another thing that I I I just got the information back on yesterday.
▶ 0:27:29So, cuts to the uh joint light tactical vehicle. Joint is the key word here. I was disappointed to find out that the Army had not coordinated this announcement with the cancellation of the program with the Marine Corps who's part of the joint purchase.
▶ 0:27:46Um, I'm curious to know why, you know, or what you're going to do in the future to avoid these unilateral actions on joint projects because whereas you might see this as a money savings, the Marines might need them and we might see the Marines cost per vehicle shoot through the roof. So, um we need to know on how the deliberative process, especially on joint, how you're moving forward with that.
▶ 0:28:13Um and of the remaining programs to end, if you could kind of tell the committee or if you don't have it with you, there is a cost to close out. So, this is going to this just isn't going to it'll save I I get your spreadsheet. It's saving money in the long run, but you're going to have to spend money to close them down. So, we would like to know what your estimated closeout costs.
▶ 0:28:35And then finally, when problems arose with the Air Force announced that they were ending the A-10 program, we all have our stories that we can tell about the A10 and the battles on the House floor, the battles in the the authorizing the committee, the battles we had in the appropriations committee about that. Um, you know, and I'm a person who supported uh uh ending the A10 program right away. I'm a person who actually supports Brack.
▶ 0:29:02So I'm not afraid to talk about cancelling programs and or phasing programs out. But I need to understand better how you're going to work with Congress and work with industry especially to ensure a soft landing for some of these army programs that are going to be cancelled and how they fit as I asked in my opening statement how they fit into your 2030 initiative or are we going to see a refresh of the 2030 initiative. Thank Thank you, gentle lady. Chairman Cole.
▶ 0:29:33Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm uh like my colleagues, very u interested in the lessons that we're drawing from Ukraine. I've never seen anything transform our thinking quite so rapidly as that war. And as terrible as it is, it's certainly given us a chance to rethink our own force structure and what we ought to do. So, let me start with you if I may, Mr. Secretary.
▶ 0:29:54If you had to like pick the three things that have struck you the most or you think we ought to be aware of as we think about refashioning the force looking at Ukraine, you what would those things and to be fair, I'm going to ask General George the same questions. I'm not trying to pitch you against one of I'm just very very curious about uh you know how what you're seeing because we've traveled extensively. I've seen Ukrainian patriot batteries training at Fort Sil in my district.
▶ 0:30:23I've been to Europe and watched Ukrainian soldiers training on NATO facilities and interacting with NATO soldiers, certainly with our soldiers in particular. Uh, and I'm just, you know, enormously impressed by how much we're learning. U, but I'm I'm curious how you would see that and how you would integrate those lessons into what you're doing now. Uh, absolutely, Chairman. So, um, I I think one of the first things is u it's impossible to move. So the the moment you're near the front uh lines, there are so many sensors that exist.
▶ 0:30:53The army has for a very long time said we own the night. And so we have to a lot of our offensive capabilities were built around the fact that we own the night. That that no longer is sufficient with drones and all of the other sensors. The moment a human or a thing starts to move, the enemy knows. The next one is technology leads. know um when General George and I are talking about these platforms of the future oftent times we're referencing that they are software systems that are just manifesting in the world as hardware.
▶ 0:31:23What they will need to be able to do is be updated in near real time. So what we're learning from drones in Ukraine is they are updating the software and some of the hardware components on these drones every two weeks. Our best guess is that today with our current systems we might be able to pull it off in 18 months at scale. um that that is just not even it it is so far from sufficient for the modern uh warfare. And then the last one is just the speed of war.
▶ 0:31:48So the ability to um have swarms of things whether they're um autonomous or human-led is just making it so that the command and control layer that we're about to describe throughout this hearing and the digital layer that is going to be required to basically allow our people to sync with our things and sync with our sensors. That layer needs to be fast. It needs to be protected.
▶ 0:32:12And then probably in the future, what it needs is it needs to be able to have some sort of generative AI models that can come in and help with things like targeting and all of these different things that human beings have done for a long time, but the speed has changed so quickly that humans are just not able to keep up and it requires software solutions. General, I'm I'm probably going to expand on a couple of things that the secretary said. I think overall we're paying attention to this all the time. We get a lot of briefings um back on this talking to the Ukrainians.
▶ 0:32:41Um we're learning across every war fighting function and it's the one thing that I hear from our troops is that we're not moving fast enough. I mean that's the feedback that I get and why we are you know trying to move this forward and why we're talking about army transformation initiative. I think the big thing is well the first one that the secretary talked about you cannot hide on the modern battlefield. We have to develop you know systems that are lower signature. you're going to have to be more mobile.
▶ 0:33:08Everything is going to have to reduce um their signature and that's both visible and um on the electromagnetic that we have to work that out. Um second is on drones. Drones are going to be in every formation that we do. We're going to have autonomous systems in everywhere, every formation. Um whether it's to protect, detect or attack, those things are going to be in every kind of formation. a logistics formation, an artillery battery that I know you're familiar with. Everybody's going to have to do that.
▶ 0:33:36And that gets to training our formations up and down on how we're doing that. That's what I mentioned, how we're going to have to change how we're organized because we're going to have to be organized differently. And that's part of Army Transformation initiative as well. Um, and then I'll probably add one thing just uh because a question came from you, chairman, is on is just the efficacy of long range fires and I think we've seen that.
▶ 0:33:58I mean, um, Ukraine did not have, uh, and this is using drones and long-range fires, did not have a navy and what they were able to do with the Black Sea FE fleet. So, that's another area that we are working on very hard. Um, we have to move very quickly in that area as well. And I think it was brought up about having magazine depth. That's the other thing that we are looking at making sure that we can uh, move quickly in that area.
▶ 0:34:22Well, you anticipated one of my questions which I was going to ask you specifically about long range fires and and what lessons you've uh you've drawn there because I'm struck just as Chairman Calbert was about the transformation of the nature of this war in progress from what we saw at the beginning uh to this drone and the percentage of casualties now inflicted by drones on both sides. And honestly, I've been and and I'd love to be told you're wrong or whatever. So don't hesitate.
▶ 0:34:52But to me, just watching it as a non-professional and outsider, I've been shocked about how little conventional air power has played in this conflict. You know, we've been able to fight without looking up for most of uh my lifetime. Uh you got to look up on battlefields now because it's not a jet roaring over your head that we can take care of. It's a small drone that's, you know, not is slow enough that we're not knocking it out with air power.
▶ 0:35:22So, and I've been shocked about, frankly, uh, how little the advantage Russia would have in a conventional fight in the air has mattered on the ground in this particular conflict. Partly because of drones, partly because there's so much more reach and long range fires now than there used to be.
▶ 0:35:43U but they're certainly not flying much over the skies in Ukraine and obviously our patriot people are part of that but uh it's just it's stunning because it's a lot different than most recent conflict. So I just if you would just quickly um General George if you have any reflections on any of that and yeah let's love to hear your thoughts. Um yeah chairman I appreciate the getting a chance to come back. I mean I would you know follow up the list would be longer.
▶ 0:36:11it's hard to, you know, to go down, stop at three. Um, you you mentioned integrated air and missile defense. So, the same reason that we're being really effective with long range fires, we're going to have to innovate and move quicker. And again, this gets back to we can't wait to 2030 or any of those things, we have to be moving out in that. We are doing that. Um, when we talk about integrated air and missile defense, we're also we should also be thoughtful of counter UAS. We're very focused on sense, decide, and act.
▶ 0:36:40So ACT can be kinetic or non-kinetic, but we have to innovate in each of those areas. So our sensors are going to have to be ubiquitous. We're have to look for cheaper sensors that are with every formation because everybody is going to have to be alerted to that. And I don't care what and I've talked to the other service chiefs. What service you're in, drones are going to be, you know, out there and long range fires are going to be able to reach. And so we have to we have to focus on that. So that's what we're that's what we're attempting to do and and do that as rapidly as possible.
▶ 0:37:10What's a challenge obviously and a lot of the drones are dual use and it's coming you know that um you know we're seeing drones that can lift you know big heavy we're going to use them in logistics um that is ahead and what we need to do is make sure we're doing the same thing that we have the same agility when it comes to counter UAS so that we are maintaining pace with that with that threat that's going to be out there. Thank you very much. Yield back, Mr.
▶ 0:37:40Uh, Secretary, do you have further comment? Oh, I I was just going to add I I think one of the things um we spend a lot of time thinking about is if it is true that Russia has manufactured nearly 1 million drones. Um we are an incredibly wealthy nation, perhaps the wealthiest in human history. But even we um cannot um fire $4 million kinetic weaponry at $800 drones for very long.
▶ 0:38:04And so one of the things back to the speed of sharing information that that we need as a nation is we need to be able to um take down some drones with 50 cal rounds um because a 50 cal is pretty cheap. We need to be able to use directed energy at scale that we are trying to make it so that we can uh envision a war because many of the the greater wars last a very long time. Um and we're going to need to be able to afford that war.
▶ 0:38:28And so in most of our decisions, what we are talking about as an army is how do we prepare to engage with a near peer or a peer for a very long time uh and make the math work. Thank you uh Mr. Morelli. Thank you uh Mr. Chairman once again for uh hosting these hearings and the ranking member and thank you gentlemen for uh being with us today and for your service. I want to start uh Secretary Driscoll.
▶ 0:38:56I represent uh Rochester, New York, which is home to REMADE, which is a manufacturing USA institute that specializes in remanufacturing. And I've seen firsthand how innovations in this space benefit the department, particularly the Army's use of remanufacturing to modernize aging Delta model Apaches into echo models.
▶ 0:39:18Um, the 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum, which I know you're very well uh acquainted with, having served there, still operates the Delta models uh and is awaiting echo replacements. I read, I think just in a memo last week from Secretary Heg Hegath's um a memo proposing the divestment of air cavalry squadrons, raising serious questions about the future of these aircraft.
▶ 0:39:40And I I wonder if you can explain the justification behind removing uh the armored cavalry squadron from your combat aviation brigades and what the army's rationale is for nearly for taking nearly half I think of your Apaches out of the active uh component. I think that's for if general if that's a more appropriate question. I'll I'll jump in there on that one.
▶ 0:40:03Um, and I think this goes back to what Chairman Cole talked about with, you know, autonomous systems where we're going with man systems and just the amount of money that we spend on these systems. So, um, we are, uh, we are going to take the AH64 Deltas. They're twice as expensive as the as the 64 Echo. Um, we're going to keep some of the pilots that we have. We have great pilots and thicken the lines with our maintainers. And so, that's the plan that we're going to do.
▶ 0:40:32And we're going to invest that in autonomous systems. I think we're going to look at autonomous systems, manned and unmanned teaming. And actually, I think just because we've had, you know, struggles with operational readiness rates of uh our H64 Deltas that we're actually going to have a more ready um aviation formation and that's that's what we're after. But we're looking to the future. I mean, autonomous systems are cheaper. How do we you know, we find the right balance. So, do you expect that there won't I'm sorry, Mr. check.
▶ 0:41:02Oh, Congressman, I was just going to say I I I don't know that we know what the right mixture is. There's no um obvious recipe for man and unmanned and Apache verse drone, but we do know that it needs to be some sort of mixture and we are overly weighted right now because of just how um technology developed toward manned and so a lot of these are corrections toward the future. Um and we would want to work with this committee as we are learning from soldiers and learning from um what is occurring around the world to to figure out that right mixture and spend.
▶ 0:41:31We did we did actually war game this as well. I will tell you that we've gone through this and we've done war games on it. We've done the analysis on it and we're happy to have somebody come over and I I would love that and I and as I so it does sound to me general that the expectation is that be echo Apaches would be clearly preferred. I would just suggest that our ability, as I understand it, to remanufacture the Deltas into uh Echo models is far less expensive than new Apache Echo.
▶ 0:42:00And and so, but I'd love to have an opportunity offline perhaps um to be able to uh have a further conversation about this if that'd be all right. Of course, Congressman, and we can look at the difference in spending and follow back up with your office. Great. Thank you. Um, if I may, uh, with my rem remaining time, uh, General, uh, protecting the health and long-term readiness of service members obviously is a top priority, uh, for all of us. Um, we continue to see service members suffer, um, traumatic brain injuries, particularly from blast over pressure events.
▶ 0:42:30Um, and I know we've made some progress, but as I understand it, there remains no standardized, uh, field deployable device to monitor and record blast exposure in real time. Um and that leaves soldiers I think vulnerable to uh uh leaves them vulnerable and and underdiagnosed as I understand it.
▶ 0:42:49So can you talk a little bit about the uh plan for accelerating development deployable deployment of reliable uh blast monitoring devices and how we can help support uh what I think is an urgent need. Sure. Um Congressman, this is this is something else I'd be happy to come over and go into you in detail. So I just had um we're going down to our special mission units and they're actually working you know on this for us very specifically um resourcing them to go through this.
▶ 0:43:15So part of this is too is testing and we're working through the testing to make sure that people from the day you come in the in the army that you are tested and and what this is and everybody responds as you would imagine a little bit differently just like we respond to physical things um differently. I think the biggest thing is figuring out how we we change the training. Um, you know, what what kind of charges are we using?
▶ 0:43:38I mean, we're going to have to do the things that we're going to have to do to make sure that we're ready, how can we adjust um at training, and then we are all looking at everything from helmets, how are helmets designed, um what's the padding inside the helmets, you know, what are the individual detectors? Um, so I can go through that with you. Um, and and we have industry. Obviously, there's more people that are interested in this than just us. I mean, it's it's uh there's other folks, but we want to lead the way on that.
▶ 0:44:04We're working very closely with with uh SOCOM and our special mission units. I would also ask, as I understand it, I don't know if that uh a blast um and monitoring data is is put into the long-term health care records of our war fighters. And I wonder if and we could talk about this offline, but if you'd consider that uh as part of their their health records.
▶ 0:44:28So, um the testing that I mentioned, I think it's ANAM, so I hate throwing in an acronym here, but um there is because I don't know what what the hell it stands for, but um there is a you go through an online testing for that. Um and that is entered in everybody's record. So I have that dep you know before I deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan and all those things get entered into your record. Terrific. Uh thank you Mr. Chairman. Chairman Rogers. Thank you Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:44:58Welcome to the gentlemen this morning. I bring you greetings from the men and women serving the country at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. uh home of the 101st Airborne Division and the Army's air assault school.
▶ 0:45:18With that in mind, uh I reviewed secretary's transformation memo, including the proposed end to Apache and Gay Eagle procurement, which would be a major shift.
▶ 0:45:39Uh, I support building a a leaner, more lethal army, but I have real concerns about maintaining aviation readiness and combat power. Mr. Secretary, what analysis or war gaming backs the decision to cut air squadrons?
▶ 0:46:10How are we measuring risk to lethality and responsiveness? Congressman, um as we um told your colleague, one of the things that we have seen from looking at modern combat uh in Ukraine and around the world is manned aviation serves a purpose and it will likely continue to serve a purpose for decades to come.
▶ 0:46:34Um but in the world of very cheap swarmable drones, it it cannot be the only thing that we invest in. And so from our perspective, because we owe a duty and a burden of care to the American taxpayer and the soldier, we have to look at our resources that we are given and we have to allocate them to different um pots.
▶ 0:46:54And so when we look at what we need to invest in, we need to overinvest in UAS and underinvest in mans going forward to create a more sustainable ratio. Ending Apache and Grey Eagle uh will leave a serious gap in our attack and recon capabilities.
▶ 0:47:18What new systems would replace those functions and when I'm going to jump I'll jump in on that one. Um Congressman, so um I I I mentioned in my opening statement that we had a brigade that was over in Europe, did not have Apaches. that was 300% more effective. Had drones, had loitering munitions, long range fires. Um, and part of that is bringing I think we have all those systems that can come on right now.
▶ 0:47:46And again, like the um secret my secretary said that um when we show industry that we can do this with drones, I think that they will come out. Um the drones that we had in that third brigade that we did for transforming in contact were different from the first ones because they've advanced and we're advancing we're advancing with it. Um, I would say it's the same thing on on Grey Eagle.
▶ 0:48:07Um we got right now there's vertical takeoff and landing drones um are significantly cheaper and you know with that have uh some pretty amazing capability very similar capability and I don't think um what we can't afford is to have uh a company that has set aside you know 150 people to run drones from an airfield when we can have a crew of two or three run a drone um that could be pulled right out of the back of a truck or
▶ 0:48:37one of our utility vehicles and that can operate. So, I think we can actually increase our lethality when we infuse our formations with this and and that's what we're seeing through our experimentation and um what we're doing with transforming in contact. We just need to get that, you know, we need to make these changes and get those things to our formations as soon as possible.
▶ 0:49:00And Congressman, we intend to the the assets that the um this committee has funded for us and that we have like the Grey Eagle, we want to continue to use them and they do serve a purpose. The ones that we have, what we are advocating for is um not purchasing anymore because there are a lot of solutions on the market that we think we need to be testing and spending on to figure out what works best. We thank you both for your service to the country. Yield back. Thank you, gentlemen. Mr. Agelire.
▶ 0:49:30Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, General George, thank you for the support that the Army provided in in response to to the wildfires. Uh, I know those of us in Southern California greatly appreciate the the support. Um, Mr. Secretary General, I along with other members of the committee are concerned about the implementation of the new National Defense Areas along our southern border, the transfer of land from the Department of the Interior to the Department of Defense without congressional approval. Mr.
▶ 0:49:57Secretary, can you walk us through what occurs when a soldier encounters a migrant in one of the national defense areas? How long is someone uh detained by soldiers before they're transport before they're transferred to CBP authority? Um the national defense areas um we the United States Army stand prepared to um take them on when they are transferred to us. We we immediately treat them like an army base which we have a lot of experience providing security coverage on.
▶ 0:50:26Um when I'm on army bases, I've been traveling the last 75 days, you see armed security on all of these bases and we look at the fact specific um around the base to figure out what what level of security should we be providing. And so the army is very well trained with this. We have 250 years of providing security on our bases.
▶ 0:50:45Um and then specifically to your question, Congressman, um what the soldiers will do is they do not have law enforcement functions and so they will hold them for a reasonable period of time if law enforcement uh for law enforcement to come take over and do their um functions. What's a reasonable period of time? And and what do those conditions or facilities, you know, look like as you as they're being held? Um as I understand it, Congressman, the reasonable test that occurs in many areas of the law varies based off the situation.
▶ 0:51:12And so, um, our soldiers are incredibly well trained to not get outside of their duties and, um, they will be professionals every single time. Can you give me one example? I know there's various, but can you can you give me one example of of what it would look like? Um, right now we visited our our 10th Mountain Division that's out of Fort Wuka down on the border. Um, and what they're doing is providing um, patrols and overwatch.
▶ 0:51:34And so they had uh strikers up on a hill and they were looking through the equipment and when they would see an illegal immigrant cross the border, they would call uh the Customs and Border Patrol. Those agents would then go interdict that person. And so we've been doing it for the last couple of months with no problem so far. What are there any is there any specialized training that um that the army is giving uh these individuals to provide that overwatch in these new national defense areas?
▶ 0:52:02So I think we're doing a lot of uh you know a lot of these missions that we do as far as um doing security missions, patrolling, reconnaissance, these are things that we are trained at and very good at. Um everywhere that we've been down there um and I've we talk uh not probably almost every week to the folks that are down there um that are doing this. It's a Northcom mission um but there's a very close relationship with Customs and Border Patrol.
▶ 0:52:29they soldiers understand what their rules of engagement are, what they're supposed to do. And you know, same thing because this is a Department of Homeland Security Mission, how they would handle that with them. So, there's really close coordination and and honestly, I've had none of those issues have come up. Um, and we talked to them quite a bit. And Congressman, qualitatively, it's not quantitative, of course. Um, soldiers seem to value the mission. They they enjoy doing this. Um, they think it's adding a lot of value.
▶ 0:52:57I think the partnership with the Customs and Border Patrol, I think when we've spoken to those agents, they they have valued having soldiers and it goes both ways. And so, at least from what we've been able to see, um it it's been working so far. What what missions are being delayed or diverted um while this is uh made a priority. I understand I understand that soldiers appreciate being active and being out there. Um what are we what are we not doing by by doing this?
▶ 0:53:24Um, you know, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that we're not doing. I It's an important mission as, uh, you know, SE Army said. Um, our troops are excited to do this. We have, you know, talked to the second brigade, fourth ID that's down there in 10th Mountain. You know, part of what we're doing, they're doing a lot of the missions that they would, you know, tend to have to be trained to do. We are also working with them while they're down there to make sure, you know, again, back to the transforming and contact.
▶ 0:53:52what can we do to update their network while they're down there? They're learning a lot. You know, they're helping us with the counter um UAS mission. So, um you know, again, I think that's what we're trying to do. We're finding a lot of value in in what we're doing down there. Yield for a minute. Yeah, I'll yield to the ranking. 20 seconds you have left. So you talk about training when you're defending a military base and that's been your description of this whether it's at home or whether it's abroad.
▶ 0:54:23There's lethality involved. There is amount of um intentional force that can be used that might not be lethal. And so this the things that CP uh that the custom and border uh agents don't necessarily do. So the so Mr. Aguular asks a very good question.
▶ 0:54:41how long, how fast, and what kind of training's going on because the last thing I know the United States Army wants because there's going to be language challenges and everything else is for an unintended consequence where somebody is either seriously harmed or you know hopefully this doesn't happen but but lethality is used. So I think it is an important question to ask that Mr. Aguular asked and I didn't hear a good answer on what you're doing for training. Thank you Mr. Agular. Ju just real briefly, Mr.
▶ 0:55:11Chairman, sorry. I I think I think asking the question about cost is also, you know, important. That's that's why we're here. There's a cost to this mission. Um but with everything that this committee is focused on and Indopaccom, uh I just struggle to to think um what we're doing here in this new authority and this new designation, how is it helping prepare us from an Indopaccom perspective? Um uh I think that's a concern that all of us should have. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, gentlemen. Mr. Wmac, thank you.
▶ 0:55:41My thanks to Secretary Driscoll and General George uh for your service. Congratulations, Mr. Secretary, on uh on your appointment and uh you're off to a fast start and we appreciate that. The common theme today has been the change that is being ushered in.
▶ 0:56:02And that change is out of necessity in part because of technology and the changing the the changing concepts of war as evidenced by what's going on in Eastern Europe, but also uh brought about by budget. We we do have a lot of budgetary concerns and there's no secret to the fact that the army is a pay for right now.
▶ 0:56:29It's one of the billpayers in uh in this pivot that we've made to the Indopacific region and I'm not going to go too far into that. But in affecting the change, this transformation initiative is doing something that we may not agree with all the parts of it, but uh man, I applaud it because uh as my old friend Sam Walton said in his 10th principle of success, swim upstream.
▶ 0:56:58In other words, get out ahead of change. And the army's been clunky. The army's been bloated. And the the army is has not been very nimble over time. I mean, I think of programs like Comanche and FCS and Booker and these are the kinds of things that we have to avoid because we're in a resource constrained environment.
▶ 0:57:20So, I want I'm going to ask you the question about risk, the risk of going through uh and the risk of not going through transformation. I want to ask that risk question both ways. Mr. sector. Congressman, as we view it, um war in the last couple of years in human history has hit an inflection point. Um war will no longer look like what it has for the past two millennia where it's driven by human beings.
▶ 0:57:47What we believe is war will likely continue to occur between human beings on land where the army thrives. But our the tools that we need to empower our soldiers with in order to fight and overcome any enemy in war um is going to require and is requiring a complete rethink of how we arm, trained and equip our soldiers.
▶ 0:58:07And so from from General George and uh my perspective, I think to your point of risk, the the risk is much greater to to keeping the status quo to allowing systems like Booker that were best intended um and done poorly. And one of the things when we met with the Pentagon leadership was General George and I said, "We got it wrong." Um, we, the United States Army, have to own that. We've got to get our processes better. We have to be better partners for industry. We have to empower them with our needs and work with them along the way. We have to keep costs down.
▶ 0:58:37And we need to improve and own it. And so, um, we're not proud of the outcome of the Booker, but what we are trying to do is not fall prey to sunk cost fallacy where because we have in invested all of these dollars into this machine that turned out to be inadequate, we're going to keep purchasing it. Instead, what we want to do is be completely transparent as we view truth with this committee and work with all of you and all of your experience across both sides of the aisle to make the army as strong as it can be.
▶ 0:59:02So that when we sold send soldiers to combat and those first six months, what we are terrified of is if we don't do this army transformation initiative, those first six months are going to be incredibly painful and heartbreaking and then that's when our nation will make the changes. Chief, yeah, Congressman, I think uh I agree um 100% with SE army. The big the biggest risk here is not is not changing and not changing fast enough.
▶ 0:59:29Um and again everywhere we go when we talk to our soldiers it's like okay let's move out and that's not the problem. They are very innovative. Um we've done this in the 101st where they've completely transformed. They're ready to move out. Um I think the risk uh you know all the challenges we're facing typically happen at a much higher level with people who don't want to change how we've been doing things. I think every everybody knows change is hard. Um, and that's where we're we're finding the biggest challenge.
▶ 0:59:58And and I think we're going to have to drive this um, you know, from the top down and remember that our number one customer out there is the soldiers that are out there in our formation and make sure that we stay focused on what they need. It won't surprise any of my colleagues, nor will it you that I'd ask a guard question. Um, you know, I I I think the guard brings value particularly in a resource constrained environment. uh we get a lot of benefit from from our guard if we can keep them trained and ready.
▶ 1:00:27Um what what does the future of the army guard look like in the formations that you are proposing with transformation? I'll go first on that one. Um Congressman, I agree with you on the guard and you know when I go to talk to all the commanders at our pre uh pre-command course, you know, I put up a big pie up there and show where everybody's from. Um and we're going to have to go as the whole army. I mean, and that's been our history, and we got to make sure that we're ready. So, this is all part of it for the Army Transformation Initiative.
▶ 1:00:57We need to have we need to transform those guard units. It's going to be a little bit harder, but I will tell you that they're all in on doing this. Um, we're looking at transforming, you know, we'll announce there's the three um armor brigade combat teams that are going to be mobile brigade combat teams. Again, all they want is like, hey, how can we do this faster? How do we get this, you know, technology into our formation and do it quick more quickly? We've done the same thing with the network. We're going to, you know, they're going to have to have drones.
▶ 1:01:25We're going to have to do this across our formation. We need the guard. They're still going to be the operational reserve um for our country and we need to make sure that we're transforming them at the as fast a pace as we can. Thank you. I yield back. Thanks, gentlemen. Mr. Square. Thank you so much. Uh let me uh believe they asked a question about the southwest uh border. I'm from uh the border area. I live there.
▶ 1:01:49Um tell me traditionally when the military goes down there in the past they've done more what I call support uh staff uh behind a joystick watching cameras. I think there's a more important role on it from building uh river roads uh because right now if you have the river the roads border patrol will go this way but they can't go across. So, I'm looking at river roads, the famous kariso cane.
▶ 1:02:18I don't know if you're familiar with kariso canae. Uh it's uh evasive type of plants that grow the height of this. And border patrol, it's on both sides of the of the river, but I'm talking about the American side. So, border patrol can't really see. They can have cameras, but they can't uh you know see through those. Uh so, eliminating that. just the very basic things that uh you all could look at and uh so do you have any ideas?
▶ 1:02:47I mean we I I can give you a whole bunch of other ideas you know from intelligence. Uh, you know, the other thing we brought up at another meeting, the um uh the drug cartels uh just a couple weeks ago shot down a um uh brought down a should not shut down but brought down a uh border patrol drone. Uh and so now the bad guys have the ability to counter ours.
▶ 1:03:15And as I've said in the past, while we're going through all this recruitment, all they do is they go to Best Buy, buy all the drones, they'll go back and they just have drones all over the place and watch what we're doing on this side uh our law enforcement. So those are some of the areas very basic things from river roads of Kariso Kaine uh to uh you know the uh interception of the uh drug cartels drones. any thoughts what y'all can do?
▶ 1:03:43Because look, keeping the military at the border is expensive. Very, very expensive. So, if we're going to get the best bank for the dollars of the taxpayers, you know, we need more than just sitting behind jewelry uh sticks. And I'm not saying you're doing that, but in the past, they've done that. Uh providing support staff for the military, I mean, for the border patrol. Something that's a little bit more useful uh I think for folks that live down on the border for border patrol. Um, Congressman, we totally agree.
▶ 1:04:13Um, and General George when he said earlier, we we talked to the leadership from 10th Mountain um that are down on the border um nearly every week. And one of the what we have tked them with is get lessons learned from this that can translate to how we create our formations for future conflict in Indoaccom and anywhere we send them.
▶ 1:04:32because um what is going on with the cartels at the border is requiring our soldiers to do exactly what you're talking about which is figure think about UAS, think about counter UAS, figure out best practices um for um taking a a drone that was bought at Best Buy that can watch their movement because again we just cannot move without things seeing us anymore and how do they operate in that environment.
▶ 1:04:55And so, um, and then to your offer of having suggestions for ways that we can improve and use the core of engineers to help improve the border and help the communities on the border, we we'd be delighted to see that list, um, if your office has it. Um, because I think a lot of your constituents will know things that we won't know and we can learn from I just would add, we I'd love to get you down there um, with the JTF southern border with uh, with General Nman who's down there.
▶ 1:05:21I think then if you had very you know specific input um that you wanted to pass him pass to him you know beyond the uh the cost which I mean it's a mission that somebody has to do I would say that we're very effective with that and when we were down there for the very first briefing um right after 10th Mountain got down there um there is customs and border patrol are working hand inand so I mean I think that's good and we're sharing it goes both ways um how we're communicating how we're passing data you know how we're getting after
▶ 1:05:51that, how we're leveraging technology. I mean, there's a new counter UAS system and software that we're doing. Um, so again, we're trying to use this as an opportunity. There's areas that we need to improve on and it's a good opportunity for us to do it. Yes.
▶ 1:06:05And uh I I like to certainly I'll take your offer and invite any of the members to be down there uh and uh give you some ideas that I think are very very useful for uh Border Patrol and uh you know love to sit down with you uh with you. Uh I know I think you all have somebody in Laredo, a group of folks. I thought y'all had some folks some uh some folks there and and and I've talked to them but but it needs to come from y'all if you know what I mean.
▶ 1:06:35Yes, sir. And then and then um ranking member McCullum uh had referenced earlier the joint force. This is a different version of the joint force, but learning to work with uh the border patrol is testing our systems and testing our ability to get information to flow back and forth and as we work to make that information go faster between these two uh independent um forces that will help make us stronger and better as we operate around the world.
▶ 1:06:59And just to finish, some people think that the drug cartels are not very smart people, but when you got so much money, uh, you can hire the smartest people, uh, and and and they're an adversary and certainly, you know, love to sit down with you and any other member that likes to go down to Larredo. Mexican food is pretty good down there. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, ranking member. Thank you, gentlemen. And a point well taken.
▶ 1:07:24The cartels unfortunately have been hiring a lot of former Mexican military personnel and uh using them that are pretty well trained. Uh Mr. Adhold. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um good morning again. Welcome to the to the subcommittee. Um and uh thank you for your testimony. Uh uh Mr.
▶ 1:07:44Secretary, your your submitted testimony regarding uh AMCOM um an organization that will be critical uh in its and the army's role to end Indo-Pacific and uh so um we're very encouraged by that. But um the recent memo suggested the merger of the Army Futures Command and Training and Doctrine Command into a single command.
▶ 1:08:12Um given the urgency to modernize as you have indicated, will this new command have any acquisition authority uh or will you continue with today's current and you know sometimes quite frankly slow requirement process either one of you want to address? I'll start on this.
▶ 1:08:32Um, so first I think we both said in our opening comments, part of this is um, streamlining some of our, you know, it doesn't make necessarily having a whole bunch of headquarters doesn't make things go faster. I would argue that, you know, streamlining that will help. Um, there's a couple of things we're doing. This will really help, I think, on the requirements process because right now we have all these different functions that are trying to do similar things in two commands and we need to combine those together.
▶ 1:08:59So that's one aspect of it, but it's also gets to changing how we're our processes. One of the things, for example, that we've done with our NextG command and control is rather than give a 250 page requirements document, we're we're basically explaining a characterization of need. We're saying, hey, here's what we here's the problem we need industry to solve. Uh and we went out there and there's a consortium of those uh industry tech industries that were able to help us do that.
▶ 1:09:29That's one aspect of it. The other is that we have to put users and developers together inside of our formations. That's another thing we're doing. So that you have you have engineers um smart people that know how to solve these problems with robots or drones. They're right inside of our formations and they're seeing you know the problems that our soldiers are facing. So I I would say it's a combination of things and I think combining these headquarters uh will help us to streamline that.
▶ 1:09:57It's also going to get more of our leaders back down into our fighting formations, which is something that I know everybody wants. And Congressman, just anecdotally to um kind of tell a real world example of how we're trying to think about things differently. Um we chief and I visited the West Coast and went to a tech company that makes autonomous software for vehicles and we said, "Have you ever tested this on a a military vehicle?" And they said, "No, we can't wait the couple of years to get it. There's too much paperwork.
▶ 1:10:23There too many forms." And we basically worked with the team to get them a Humvey and an infantry squad vehicle within about a week. And they said, "Well, what do you want us to do with it?" And we said, "We'll just do anything you can do to it in 10 days and send us a video." So they sent us a video. They had fully automated it. They had tied it in with drones. They had made it so you could repair it with the manual that they had uploaded to a screen remotely. And then they sent us this video and we thought, "This is incredible. We got to get it in the hands of soldiers." So we put it on a shipping truck and instantly drove it to JRTC.
▶ 1:10:52And this morning I woke up to a video of soldiers testing this new system. the entire time from start to in the hands of soldiers was about six weeks. And so what we're hoping to do is basically capture these lessons in real time. We don't know that it's a good idea or not, but we know that we'll know in about a week if it's a good enough idea to invest some more resources. And I think the merger of these two commands, the intent is to empower soldiers that are currently stovepiped to work together to do these things at scale across the formations. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:22Oh, the striker is sometimes referred to as uh the army Swiss Army knife and u it is and it's um the most deployed combat vehicle with u more than 30 million miles and u 23 current deployments. Um what's your u and I'll give this question to you secretary Driscoll. What's your assessment of the Striker vehicle and could you speak to the Army's plans for future production regarding it?
▶ 1:11:52Um, uh, Congressman, I think that the Striker adds a lot of value to moving our soldiers around. Um, I think what what we've seen in Ukraine is, um, with the Striker, you probably couldn't get too close to the front line um, without a relatively cheap drone being able to um, take that platform out of service. uh it is a a massive value to the army as we operate on land with people to be able to reposition our people and so there are currently no plans to uh change how we think about the striker.
▶ 1:12:20Um but I think one of the things that we have tried to flag to the entire formation and in our letter is this is an iterative process. We view uh this uh transformation what what you have quoted today for the ATI as just the first phase. It may be one month later, six months later, or a year later that we come back to this committee and say, "Here's what we've learned. We think we need to do this next batch of changes.
▶ 1:12:43Um, and so because it's all going to be how do we create the right mixture of assets and tools and training so that we can be ready for the next battlefield which could show up anywhere in the world." Can I can I make a quick comment on that? Um because the striker having been a division commander, having deployed in you know with these formations is a great system and you know we have it and we're going to do some consolidation of some of those uh that are at Fort Carson. I do think that they have a role to play really around the world.
▶ 1:13:12We're using them for integr uh for counter UAS systems. They're great for command and control systems. So um I think we see a a part in them. But again this is not just that every formation has to have them. I think what we're trying to figure out is to the secretary's point what's exactly the right mix that we need to be able to respond when our country calls on us and that's you know that's what we owe. Thank you. I go back. Thank gentlemen. Judge Carter.
▶ 1:13:42Uh thank you Mr. Chairman. First, I want to thank you both for coming to my office and talking to me about uh this week and last week regarding the army's modernization directive, especially the discussion of merging armor's future command with trade. As you know, my biggest concern is enabling the the bureaucracy that has delayed acquisition over the years.
▶ 1:14:10We must, we got to move faster and we got to be moved faster to be lethal and we don't want to enable people who keep us from getting what we need to the battlefield and I love what you're saying so far.
▶ 1:14:25So can you explain to me how merging free use command with trade will decrease the bureaucracy's ability to slow down and allow us to streamline uh to acquire technology at a place that is relevant. I I'll start on that. So um you know our plan right now is uh we're going to you know it'll be the army's transformation and training command.
▶ 1:14:52Um it will stay, you know, the the primary headquarters um congressman down in in Austin technical hub. Um we like what's down there, you know, as far as the culture, the software factory, you know, the ideas for innovation um and change, but a lot of these changes are also going to occur inside that command that um have to happen at the combined arms center at Levvenworth, at the centers of excellence.
▶ 1:15:18And I mentioned it um earlier when your colleague you know was asking about it where I think we can combine and move things and consolidate you know some of our form and function that we have at some of those places as well as well like Fort Sil or Fort Benning. Um the other thing that we are looking to do is to automate a lot of our processes. Um and I think I've mentioned this to you know when I can go to a smartboard in my office rather than asking questions and I can immediately see the data.
▶ 1:15:45So, some of this is is changing our processes and how we're doing that. And um last thing I'd mention is Secretary mentioned this. Um we've had a lot of uh whiteboard sessions here on how we would you know we're going to move this at speed. And so um I do think you know we have to transform faster and we're going to have to figure out how we can buy things um on a much more rapid you know modular open system architecture and we're working on that as well.
▶ 1:16:13and Congressman um we we have approximately 35,000 people that are in our acquisitions. Um we we don't know what the right number is. Um that is too many. What ends up occurring is you just have so many human beings involved that everything gets slowed down. There are just require and these are our own. This is not blaming anyone but ourselves.
▶ 1:16:33Um, we have just we have got to cut through some of these layers so that the feedback loop between the actual soldier testing the thing, getting that learning or testing or using it in actual combat, getting that learning into our system and getting that to the software developer or the manufacturer to get the next prototype out to get the next thing in the field is what has made American innovation so strong in the last 20 25 years.
▶ 1:16:57these venture capital models for how they back companies to test, innovate, learn, grow, and repeat again and again and again till they hit scale. Um, we the army need to do it and um we're hopeful that we're taking the first steps. Well, amen on that one. Uh, that needs to be done. The acceleration of programs like the future longrange assault aircraft and the M1 E3 highlight the growing need for modernization of infrastructure.
▶ 1:17:28Is the AIT initiative making the necessity investments to support these platforms? And do you believe that we can build an infrastructure quickly enough to meet the pace of modernization? Um I can take the Flora and then um chief you want to hit the M1 E3. Um so the Flora aircraft uh the rotary wing helicopter is an amazing innovation that I think we the army need.
▶ 1:17:57Um it it is an example I think of um our own systems and failures getting in the way. when they showed me the aircraft and said how fast it went and how far it went. It clearly will add capabilities that could be relevant in Indopaccom. Um but when I asked well when did the first test flight occur and I think it was 2017 or 2018 it's my stomach sank that it had been seven years since we think we had found what we needed but we hadn't transitioned to it. We hadn't figured out a path forward. was kind of just at this stalled place.
▶ 1:18:27And so, um, we do think that Flora and with, uh, the ATI that is probably our future. And so, we are actively working on a plan and trying to sync with, um, Pentagon leadership, Secretary of Defense, and the deputy, uh, secretary to, um, to move that forward as quickly as Yeah. On the I just really quick, um, Congressman, on the tank, um, this fully digitized. So again, you know, secretary mentioned, you know, having a platform that's basically enabled by software. That's what this would be.
▶ 1:18:58Um, uh, diesel hybrid electric. So, you know, half the fuel cost, again, reducing the logistics that are on there. Modular, so you can add active protection. So, people talk about drones. Um, you could update the active protection system on this in this whole system could be rapidly updated.
▶ 1:19:15What we would like to have is next year and I think we could move this, you know, this fast on this is actually have some of those new tanks inside of our formation and get, you know, and have our soldiers given feedback on that and what we need to do. I think we have to approach these different. I've always talked, you know, programmer record is should be a little bit different. Um, we have to build things that are modular and can be adapted and updated because that's the world we're living in. And one more quick question. I've got a little bit more time.
▶ 1:19:45Uh Mr. Quayar asked a question about the border. Historically, our our our mission on the border was don't back. Unless they shoot at you and kill or hurt American soldier, then you can shoot back.
▶ 1:20:05Now, if they're using a drone to knock down something important to us, why can we use a drone our drone to knock their drone down that there's no human interaction there? No human being is dying. Are we still going to have to be fired at before we fire back? If they send a drone over the border to mess with us, can't we shoot it out? What do you know about that policy?
▶ 1:20:33because historically that's been the policy on the border. Our military can't shoot back. Yeah, I'm going to have to come back to you on the specifics on that. I know we have made some requests and they've come up on the 13i. Um that is law on what we can do and what we can't do when it comes to drones and how we share information and and what we can do. Um so we'll come back with you on those on the specific because it doesn't make sense.
▶ 1:21:00There's no human being dying from the the if they send a drone over to knock it down. And if they not they knocked ours down, why can't we knock theirs down? What what I don't think has changed if anybody feels like they're threat, you know, some if they're being threatened again, this gets back to that basic ROE. Um but I think your question is more broad if you see anything flying um that's out there and we'll follow up with you on that. Yeah.
▶ 1:21:27And and remember that drug stuff that they're bringing across the border is killing more people than our soldiers are killing. Okay? So that's really important to think about. If they got free will to send drones over with drugs, we ought to be able to shoot them now. And I'll yield back. Thank you, chairman. Thank you, Judge. I appreciate it. Uh you one point you made I want to reemphasize this.
▶ 1:21:55How many people do you in the army have in the acquisition program? Approximately 35,000. That's just the United States Army. That is just the United States. That is um that is a combination of acquisition sustainment um engineers that do development. So I think there's around, you know, if you're like talking purely acquisition professionals, I think that's somewhere around 5,000. I mean, I can get back with you, but it's a you know, like a program that we have that's in sustainment.
▶ 1:22:24This gets to why you know some of these things that we don't we want to that we want to stop there becomes you know it's sustainment as well. Let's just say it's 5,000 just in the army. So I make an assumption here that uh you have a significant number in the Navy. You have a significant number in the United States Air Force. You have a significant number I'm going to ask the question Mr. Wmax here.
▶ 1:22:45I suspect how many people do you think is an acquisition in the entire corporation of If you ask the uh leadership at Walmart and the shareholders, they'd probably say too many. U but not that many. I was just curious. Uh Mr. Dez thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and first uh gentlemen, Mr.
▶ 1:23:12Secretary General, thank you for your service and and I I hope you you know that when we say that, we mean it. Uh it's it's it's such a crucial role that that you play and those that you that you represent. I love what you're trying to do. I really do. I think it's important. Um you've mentioned why you're doing it. We know the problem. It's a frustration that we've had and and Congress can be part of the problem. We know that. Um one of the issues is is it's kind of the chicken and the egg.
▶ 1:23:39One of the problems that we that we have as members of Congress is sometimes, you know, there's not been a lot of confidence necessarily uh in in making sure that the money that we that we send is going to be used for things that are really important. And again, we're part of that problem. I get that a big part of that problem. But but let me just throw a couple of potential issues.
▶ 1:23:59for example, um, soul source contracts, which can be hugely necessary and important, but sometimes you kind of wonder um, and I I just want to throw something out there.
▶ 1:24:13There may be a good explanation but but um the this vital torso protection program that there were my understanding a number of potential vendors uh and then it was in essence I believe soul sourced to two and yet it's it's a almost you know over $400 million program over seven years.
▶ 1:24:35There may be a good reason for that, but that's the kind of thing that you that we see and it's like whoa, what's going on here and I know it's precisely the kind of things that you guys are looking at. So I would just like if you could and there's other examples of that like the uh you know the lowaltitude stalking and strike ordinance lasso program right the soul source load loading ammunitions I believe it's almost a billion dollars over five years again there may be good reasons for it but I would really love if you can just get back to us on for example on those two and others that
▶ 1:25:06you might see out there that is there a real urgent reason to soul source it is it saving us money is it urgent and if it is urgent why is it for seven years or five years and so those are the kind of questions and I know you you all are trying to get to as well. Um so if you could just get back to to me on some of those issues as to are you looking at them? Uh I'm assuming that you are because you're looking at ways to be more efficient in saving money.
▶ 1:25:33Um another issue for example and again I'm sure there's a good reason for it but when we're looking at saving money and I think you guys are doing an amazing job. Um I think something like modeling and simulation in training is something that you know logic would say if done right could save money and could be very effective.
▶ 1:25:51My understanding uh is that is that the army's planning to eliminate and I see if I get this right PO Stry um which I had thought was a potential ma a massive cost-saving entity uh and so any idea of how you would ensure that that continues that that innovation and the training uh continues if that's eliminated I don't know if you have that answer now and I don't expect you have all these answers But but
▶ 1:26:22th you know if you can get back to me on these issues to be fair because obviously I'm throwing these at you a little bit of cold here but those are issues that would be very helpful to me if you can get back to me on those Can I I just want to mention on on both of them. So first uh we agree with you on you know long-term programs. I think you heard me say earlier about program record.
▶ 1:26:43um we shouldn't be buying something and saying, "Hey, we're locked in for seven years and this is what we got to buy given how much, you know, things are going to change." So, we'll follow up with you on on those on the on the PEO stride. I actually spent a year as a young infantry major working in simulations and and in my view, the gaming industry, everything that we're doing. So, it isn't just a matter of having, you know, I think we have a lot of changes that need to occur, I will tell you down there. Um and I'm very familiar with that. I can come talk to you about that.
▶ 1:27:14Um, but, uh, this is another idea of of things that we need to change how we operate and the companies that we're working with. Um, you know, when I was running a war fighter as a division and a core commander, it took 800 people, basically, our soldiers, as training aids. We can't afford to do that. There is technology out there that right now um, that we can ingest into our system and make sure that we're training.
▶ 1:27:40And that's what we wanna that's what we want to build and we haven't you know gotten that. So I do think we need to make some major changes down there. And again I just I mean I love the fact it's really to me it's refreshing to see your attitude of just you know kind of not just content with the status quo which we know has created some issues uh on lethality and and again just of being able to access technology etc. So I I love what you guys are doing.
▶ 1:28:07Um but but but if you can get back to me on those, I would greatly appreciate it. And Congressman, the only thing I would say is I appreciate your graciousness saying there's probably a good reason for why we're doing those things. There may not be. Um and what we are trying to do is reset the culture of the army so that when we look if there is not a good reason or the reason changed to tell you in this committee and work with you to fix it.
▶ 1:28:29Um and then specifically the simulations, one of the things we saw on that same West Coast trip, um this is the perfect example of the private industry and some of our largest companies have invested tens of billions of dollars into simulation tools and software. The United States Army should not be in the business of trying to compete with that. We should be taking what exists and figuring out how does this help soldiers. And so um what we are trying to do is work handinand with those companies to say they have created these new metaverses.
▶ 1:29:00How do we train there? Thank you Mr. Thank you Mr. Elie. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here. Um Secretary Driscoll, I I just want to point out that um I don't know how you're doing what you're doing. I know you're the ATF chief acting right now. Your wife works. You got two small children and I appreciate what you're doing. And I also like to point out that in 1981, Ronald Reagan appointed a then 38-year-old John Layman to transform the Navy into a 600 ship Navy.
▶ 1:29:26And I think you're the perfect guy based on your background, your history, your service to transform the Army in collaboration with the Chief of Staff in a way that we haven't seen before. And you're the right guy at the right time. Of course, General George, your your service, I think you are uh as transformative as General Burgerer in the Marine Corps. and what you're doing right now is absolutely the right thing to do.
▶ 1:29:48You know, we've talked about emerging technologies, DIU, your collaboration with with uh with those kinds of of groups and getting out of our own way at the Pentagon. And as I often say, the Pentagon should be turned into a triangle at at least. We need to lock a whole bunch of those doors and send a lot of people out to the fleet and out into the field again to get back to fighting instead of getting in our way. rice bowl that is the Pentagon is not the problem of the contractors or the chiefs of staff or the cocoms.
▶ 1:30:18It's the mid-level folks that are there that have been doing it for 20 years whose job security relies on having something bad to say about a program that's being built, which is why the army's canceled so many programs in the past because what started out as a good idea got too big and too heavy and too expensive until it dies on its under its own weight. So, I want to help you guys do what you're needing to do.
▶ 1:30:40And and I would like to point out as we transition to the fight in the Pacific, which is what everybody here believes is the next fight, which is what the president believes. It's seaf believes. He's issued memos to say transition to the Pacific. A vast sea space run by the Indoacon, my friend Papy Paparro. It's not a small place. You can't get there at 130 knots. You can't get there at 130 knots. So, the Marine Corps in order to get to the fight needs to get to the V-22.
▶ 1:31:09By the way, the the mishap rate is less than that of the H53, the AV8B, and the F-18. That doesn't prevent people from talking bad about it and saying it's a troubled program. It's mature and it's ready to go. The Army's not going to get in the fight unless they have the Flur. The Air Force isn't going to get into the fight until they have the F47. And the Navyy's not going to be in the fight appropriately until it has the FAXX. So, I want to ask you, General, do you feel good about tiltro technology?
▶ 1:31:36Is it mature enough for you to take the Fleer on and into battle future long range attack aircraft? Um I I do um Congressman and that is uh I think we both said this uh upfront is I think that that is a much needed system um inside the army. I think that it is uh you know 350 m an hour at 350 mile range that is a a a significant difference.
▶ 1:32:02Um, it can be optimally manned, which means it could also fly autonomously. You can put, you know, connect that with drones. There's a lot of things that you can do with that system. We could use it around the world, not just and I think it's critically important in the Indopaccom. And I think that this is also something that uh, SOCOM is going to want um, to be able to use. So, I think all the services would use that. So, we want to get it moving as fast as possible. and Congressman uh with Flora, we met with the the the company that built it last week.
▶ 1:32:32And what we we wanted to partner with them and tasked them with is spend this week and create a plan and tell us how do you push it forward by years and then what do we the army need to do to help you? And so one of the things when we talked to Deputy Secretary Defense Fineberg that he and we have gotten so excited about is we do not intend to sit back passively as they begin this manufacturing process.
▶ 1:32:54If you think about what had helped us during our world wars is we put soldiers in factories and we intend with Flora, we are going to be a part of the process and we are going to be cutting through the red tape and doing our part as a United States Army to push it forward and get in the hands of soldiers. Thank you. Well, I I think defense departmentwide we see a bunch of folks at the Pentagon who are getting in the way from my service NAV Air and Nav C.
▶ 1:33:16NAVC has gotten in the way of the NLSM that's going to allow the Marines to fight and it's gone to 10 times as expensive and five years away from being produced when we can get it right off the line off the shelf so to speak out of uh plants in Mississippi or shipyards in Mississippi. Um we have Nav Air getting in the way of your program at Flur as well as making some mistakes with V22.
▶ 1:33:39So, uh, I I think we're all united and and the the folks, uh, in the Pentagon who are preventing you from helping the COCOMs man, train, and equip their troops need to be very fearful about their jobs in the future because we won World War II without Nav Air, NAVC, without the minions. And it's time to get back to that so we're more responsive to the war fighter and the COCOMs, and get these exquisite technologies on the field faster. So, thank you all for being here. I yield back.
▶ 1:34:07Just uh I love the question, Mr. Elseie on the floor. Uh how quickly do you think you can get Flora at full production? Uh and uh what is and what would you define as full production? How many how many units a year? Um chairman, I'll take the first half and give it to General George. Um we owe you followup to this. We originally were intending to put it into our ATI document that came out.
▶ 1:34:33Um we don't feel like we're in a position quite yet to answer this question, but um we are we think within a matter of weeks we will have a very clear plan that we can come pitch you as a committee or a subcommittee that you can help us look at um and be able to react to. I just uh and second army said this I think we're you know broadly moving this up you know several years like you know into the 2028 time frame is what we're looking at.
▶ 1:34:59We're just see figuring out what we can do by working with them on how we can pull it as far left. What we've also talked about doing is getting some initial systems inside of our formations. That's what we're trying to do right now. You get feedback directly, you know, what are the things that we need to to do differently. So, um, we'll come back and follow up with you in detail. Thank Thank you, gentlemen. Mr. Laura, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and ranking member and my colleagues.
▶ 1:35:29I apologize. It's a day filled with hearings. There are five of them and this is three. So, uh, but it's, uh, I really wanted to be here today. Let me just say first of all, I represent the third district of Connecticut and Connecticut has historically been known as the arsenal of democracy. So, these are issues that are very critically important to me.
▶ 1:35:50Um we make the finest aircraft in the world including the Blackhawk which is uh uh uh manufactured at Sakorski uh in Stratford, Connecticut which I represent. Um you know you you you all know this. It's the Army's vertical lift platform par excalance uh vers versatility, safety, effectiveness. Uh our soldiers know it. Wherever I travel uh overseas etc.
▶ 1:36:14I always ask about the Blackhawk and and the the our our our service people, our soldiers sing its praises. So um um because of this uh the Blackhawk will play an integral role in Army aviation operations for decades to come. Secretary Driscoll, does this assessment of the Blackhawk's capabilities and importance sound right to you?
▶ 1:36:37U Congresswoman uh directionally yes with the the disclaimer being um again if we look at all of our platforms and all of our systems the right mixture of what we need in the future um we are learning these lessons daily and want to share them with um you your office and this subcommittee and so um the the problem with an all Blackhawk formation would be it cannot go far enough and fast enough to survive in some parts of the world like Indopaccom like your colleague referenced and so um we do think that for the next
▶ 1:37:08sizable portion of time. The Blackhawk will be part of the mix though. Well, I just want to be sure that you're talking about um a key piece of the puzzle, the Blackhawk for the future of the army, given that has a cumulative 5 million combat hours, flown critical missions in diverse theaters and conditions. Um I think it is a critical tool and I hope you agree with me that that is the case with the Uh I agree.
▶ 1:37:38Okay. Um uh so you noted in your testimony that the army must remain agile, able to adapt to new challenges. I agree with that. Um the the Blackhawk is adaptable not just in field but technologically as well with army and industry having recognized the need to modernize key systems on the Blackhawk to ensure that it continues to work for the future.
▶ 1:38:02and I've had many conversations uh all in the affirmative of making sure uh that the modernization of the Blackhawk uh continues. Um I would like to hear more about your forward-looking vision uh for the Blackhawk. How will the Blackhawk's utilization change and grow in the coming years? How does a Blackhawk factor into the Army's new transformation initiative?
▶ 1:38:29Um, Cong Congresswoman, I I appreciate um that your constituency involves Blackhawk and the um the Americans who have made it. Our constituency is the American soldier and the taxpayer whose dollars we spend. Let me just interrupt for one second. It's not just a constituency issue here, though. It's very it it it is it is about the Blackhawk and what it has meant to the safety of our soldiers and the national security of this country.
▶ 1:38:56That is my primary uh uh uh goal in in addressing this issue. This is not just willy-nilly a constituent question. This is overall the national security of this nation and the role and quite frankly the promise of a modernization of the Blackhawk and that it will be a major piece going forward. Uh so I I'm sorry to interrupt you so please, you know, please continue.
▶ 1:39:25I I'll comment a little bit, please. Um I've been, you know, in the army for close to 40 years. I've been flying on Blackhawks. Got a lot of hours um on the Blackhawk. It's a great aircraft. Um I think that what right now what we want to do is actually we are going to um take some of the older Blackhawks out of our formations, the Lim Lima and Victor models. Um we have updated to the Mike model. We continue to upgrade.
▶ 1:39:50we have to upgrade all of our um aviation to make sure that they can um defend themselves, understand threats. So those kinds of things will continue to happen. I think the secretary said we're going to continue to have Blackhawks. I will tell you that what we are looking that there are ways that you can build like for example um I do think I see drones in the future being able to pick up and and um actually move artillery tubes.
▶ 1:40:17We've done that with Black Ops Blackhawks in the past and I've been on artillery raids um with those. So, I think that there's other things that are going to change on the battlefield. I see Blackhawks are going to be with us for a while, but I do think we're going to have to adapt um what we're doing. There just may be less Blackhawks.
▶ 1:40:34This is very this is very very troubling because the overall commitments and conversations with the army uh over the last year including when they weren't part of the um modernization piece going forward that the Blackhawk uh would be uh they a singular not singular in that there's nothing else out there but that that modernization of the Blackhawk and providing the multi-year contracts.
▶ 1:41:00So I'm going to ask you this question, but again very very troubling as to your comments on you know not not reassuring those of us who have had this commitment about where the black hole stands in our national security and its modernization and the investment in that modernization for the future.
▶ 1:41:24And I can give you a chapter inverse of conversations that I've had over the last year about the Blackhawk helicopter. But that then gets Congresswoman I'm not aware I'm not aware that we're making any adjustment to the Blackhawk contract. What I was basically tell describing you is how I see the battlefield evolving and how I would see us being able to do things.
▶ 1:41:46you were asking me if you know future um it's and it's hard to predict but we know we have autonomous systems that can do that's what we were talking that is because folks who preceded you were very clear about the role of the Blackhawk going forward in the future. So u again I have continued conversation about this u but you know that gets me to you know the the army needs stability.
▶ 1:42:16Our workers need stability here. Multi-year contracts for the Blackhawk have been delivered. They generated significant savings uh of uh for the government. Um, now again, I'm concerned that if the current multi-year contract is allowed to expire in 2026 without any certainty around the next steps that the industrial base is not going to be able to pick up and move back.
▶ 1:42:39Uh, so let me just ask you clearly um uh about a multi-year contract to ensure that there is no gap in production that threatens our readiness. I mean, I I wouldn't um I think we're going to have to come back and talk to you. Um Congress Congresswoman, I'm not sure I would, you know, make a commitment. I wouldn't make a commitment to say that we're going to build things, you know, the same thing forever.
▶ 1:43:08Um you know, we have uh have to come back and look at that. Obviously, we'll have a discussion on that. And Congresswoman, asking you about the 26 budget um multi-year contract. I I think we have um from what we have learned and what we have seen being around soldiers. I think we have had this conversation with many of our largest companies in the last week um we are unwilling to make commitments that are in the in our opinion in the best interest of soldiers and their lethality and keeping them safe if we deploy them anywhere in the world to bring them home.
▶ 1:43:38And so um we can follow up with your office but right now we can't answer. But we we going to need to have a conversation offline. Again uh Mr. Chairman, ranking member, this is a very, very troubling conversation and I will produce the background and information that I've been given about the future of the Blackhawk for our national security and uh the modernization and investment in that modernization. Uh so that uh I will yield back. I thank you for the opportunity uh to be here this morning.
▶ 1:44:06And I will put into the record if I can because I also uh uh uh head up the aviation uh uh uh uh sub subcommittee here with with a colleague on this committee, Congressman Strong. And we need to have answers about that. But this is very very troubling. And I'll get back to you, but you need to get back to me. We need to have a serious conversation about going forward and what this budget will look like for 2026. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, gentle, Mr. Joyce.
▶ 1:44:38Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh gentlemen, welcome. Uh Secretary Disco, I want to follow up on a little bit here what uh my colleague had brought up before. Uh when you talk about things falling behind, I used to be the chair of Homeland. We needed ice breakers and guess what? we produce maybe 1.2 a year while we need seven. So I asked this question and I really truly appreciate that your commitment to developing this next generation of combat vehicles.
▶ 1:45:07However, the thing and I'm concerned about is that uh the industrial capacity to build these things in the future. While you let go of some things and you move it one direction, uh you know, god forbid we get to war, we have to have the ability to do those be able to uh produce the things that are necessary for our men and women to fight. So, does the army have a strategic plan to ensure that we do not lose the critical workforce and combat vehicle industrial capacity as we de develop this army of the future?
▶ 1:45:35Um, Congressman, um, one of the things we're trying to do as an army is when we talk about demand signal, I think what we have not done a particularly strong job of is we, the army have stayed siloed oftent times and when we signal to our industry what we need and to allow them to spend the capex to build out the manufacturing facilities so they know they can get a return on those dollars to train the workforce to um, have a a happy sustainable expert workforce that innovates.
▶ 1:46:01All of that requires predictability and and we the army partially based off how our funding works but partially just based off we've done a poor job in the past um can be better and one of the ways we can be better is by looking to our allies and um and so what we've actively been doing is reaching out to NATO countries to say what do you want and need from the American industry? How do we bundle that together with what we want and need?
▶ 1:46:25And so even if we have inconsistent demand over time, we have a pretty good sense of what we'll need in the medium and long term, those allies can smooth out that demand to um to allow that investment that we need because to your point, Congressman, we think if we get into a long protracted conflict, it will be our ability to manufacture at scale that will be the army's one of its primary functions is to be able to deliver that to the fight. And so we are hyperfocused on it.
▶ 1:46:51Um and we think um our what we dream of is that these changes that we're talking about today will unlock a an a renaissance in the industrial base so that small and medium businesses across America venture back and not can all thrive in the new environment. Well, that's great. I know when I've had the pleasure of attending uh Kodell's with our chairman throughout the world, he's always brought that to attention that allies help allies and we all need to work together.
▶ 1:47:19uh brings me to my next question and given your emphasis on creating a competitive industrial base early on in the fact that you want to uh use the private sector to compete and help you to get to where you need to go. Uh early on is hearing your willingness to exist uh to assess existing contracts for continuation based upon the impact of the mission. We also assess past soul source contract awards to ensure that you're talking taking into account all competitive options and maximize your use of the industrial base. Absolutely.
▶ 1:47:49Um we are trying to do a top- down review of everything we can um and work with this subcommittee and um the the other bodies of government leadership to empower you with the information that we see. Um this is a collaborative process. Democracy works best when there's tension in all directions. That should give us the best outcomes and so um we are actively reviewing everything and look forward to sharing it with you. Great. Thank you, General.
▶ 1:48:13Could you please walk us through the process that you undergo, the Army undergoes when you're considering whether to pursue a competitive or a soul source contract through the procurement process and what criteria does the service consider as part of this process? Um, you know, I'm trying to think of a I'm trying to think of an an example. You know, obviously what we do on the military side is um we describe the requirements and we talk about what we need.
▶ 1:48:40there's an acquisition executive that goes through and and a contracting Um, you know, the only thing I could think of is if you need it for a short period of time and there was only, you know, somebody who could, you know, one person that could produce that and could meet the timeline that that would do that. So, I know there was an example of a seven-year. I'm not, you know, I'm not specifically aware of that. We can certainly come back to you on that.
▶ 1:49:05Um but we are I just broadly what we've been talking about is we want competition. We want as many it's why I keep coming back to program record is probably not you know you know like especially when you're talking drones and loyering munitions and all these things. You want as many people involved with the process as you possibly can because that's when a you know American industry gets moving and we've seen that with drones um and a lot of the other systems and that's where we need to be.
▶ 1:49:34Do you have any suggestions for how the army's through their procurement and acquisition process that'll help drive this innovation and maintain America's competitive advantage over our adversaries? Yeah, I I just mentioned one thing that the the secretary and I guess again it gets back to you know the his earlier comment on how we are structured. I think um there's a lot of technology right now that is you could adopt. So does the program manager shop doesn't need to be a bunch of people because it's dual use.
▶ 1:50:03It's stuff you can get right off the shelf. Network, drones, things like that. There's other things that you can modify that is, we use the example of the uh infantry squad vehicle. Um GM Defense makes that. We make modifications to it to, you know, it's a based on a Chevy Colorado. Um so that's a modified and then I think there's other ones that are developed. So I just think we have to approach this a little bit different.
▶ 1:50:27Again, we haven't those are things that we haven't done in a while and it can't be one size um fits all in the current environment that we're in. And Congressman, we we when General George and I speak about these things with the leadership team, we try to bifrocate the army as a business and the army is a war fighting machine. And one of the things we're most proud of that that started well before my tenure is if you look as an example at how we're doing recruiting and capturing the data of our future soldiers, the way we would have done in the past is we would have said here is our process.
▶ 1:50:56We need a software developer to go build us a specific thing and then we need developers to keep it up and going and it's our own proprietary thing and it's expensive and it's clunky and that's how we've done in the past. What we've done with recruiting now is the the the command looked out at the the best CRM available in the marketplace. Then it took our army process and rearranged it to match what was already in the in the market. And then we we bought a software license like a a medium and largesiz business would do. And we have um seen incredible results.
▶ 1:51:26It's a lot cheaper. It's a lot faster. It's a better experience for the soldiers who are doing the recruiting and the incoming um future soldiers. And what we're trying to do is take those army as a business functions and run them like a business. I love that idea because one thing you find around here is a lot of soul source technology and IP contracts that uh people have burrowed in over the years. It doesn't mean we're getting the best, but it means somebody's got a good job for a long period of time.
▶ 1:51:53So, I love the idea of the competition uh with that well over past my time. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Valo. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Secretary Driscoll and Secretary or General George uh for testifying before the committee today. Your leadership is vital uh to preparing our soldiers and meet the evolving needs of our war fighter.
▶ 1:52:14First question is as the army transitions infantry brigade combat teams to more mobile formations, how will you ensure soldier protections in that process, particularly as field infantry squad vehicles that offer significantly less armor than legacy platforms like the high mobility multi-purpose wheel vehicles and joint uh light tactical vehicles. Um, so I think we're actually, you know, part of this, I used to make this argument when I would go to Afghanistan. So I went from Iraq to Afghanistan.
▶ 1:52:44Everybody told me you had to wear heavy body armor, groin protector, all these extra things that I was wearing and actually it was, you know, very difficult to move. Um, so I think every situation is going to be a little bit different. What we're going to do in the mobile brigade combat teams, I think there's going to be at one autonomous systems that are in there that can see out. That's both ground and air. Um, so you can use those same autonomous systems.
▶ 1:53:08We were just out at uh our national training center where they're actually autonomous systems which you want to put in contact first that can do breaching, change detection that you can see as far as the earth is is being changed um that you can get with drones and using AI. So I think there's different ways of doing it having uh putting yourself in a complete shell. I mean, the problem with some of those vehicles, too, is they're not very mobile. They get stuck.
▶ 1:53:36When you get stuck, you're also uh a target. So, I think it's a mix, and that's what we're looking at inside of our formations. Um, last and most importantly, is is the feedback that we get from our troops that are actually doing this um that are inside there. We're getting ready um to go out to joint readiness training center um here. Actually, the brigade is doing their air assault tonight. Um it's our fourth rotation of this. they we have adjusted this um structure. We'll continue to do this.
▶ 1:54:05This is why we talk about continuous transformation, but I think we're on a good path. And Congressman, I would just say um back to the the the right balance. We don't know what it is the trade-off between the security of extra armor versus speed. Um I think a lot of um and and so we it would be ideal or it would be smoother for a conversation to say there were these very binary outcomes of what we were optimizing for. um we're not but what we are trying to do is balance out what we've purchased for coin.
▶ 1:54:31So if you think of our purchases in the last 20 years we have we have purchased or overpurchased a lot of equipment that now needs to be be balanced out with new more digital faster things and so our purchasing may look like it's a binary we are going toward only faster but we know that we already have a lot of this other equipment in our arsenal. Thank you. You stated the army's transformation transformation will be costneutral relying on devestments and command streamlining.
▶ 1:54:57Uh but are these trade-offs uh sustainable over the long term especially as new systems like drones, long range fires and cyber capabilities introduce their own life cycle costs for training, sustainment and modernization. I think you know we have this conversation almost daily about cost curve. I mean and that's what we're looking at is what do we do you know to reduce cost? Um, a big part of this is on a lot of these systems, they need to be modular. Um, and you need to be able to change things out. A lot of times it's the software.
▶ 1:55:27So, you have to you we're going to have we're gonna we have to own our IP. Um, we have to own, you know, this it has to fit into our command and control systems. Um, so again, this is about how we buy things from the beginning so that we make sure that we're reducing the cost on a lot of these things. the drones that we have from the first rotation to our most recent one um have gotten better and they've also gotten cheaper. Um we're also building some of those things.
▶ 1:55:54So I think that there's a lot of areas, you know, ways that we can keep cost down and we do have to get in the habit of things that we know don't work um or we don't need getting rid of, you know, getting rid of those as well. And congressman, one of the other places we we as the army have been a bad customer. We have both been a bad customer oftentimes to who who our suppliers are. We've also been a bad customer to ourselves. And so we have signed away our right in some instances to repair our equipment.
▶ 1:56:22And one of the things that Secretary of Defense Hegsth um mandated to us in the memo that we incredibly supportive of is we cannot allow outside parties to constrain our ability to repair our own equipment. So when General George and I were doing some of our tours and spending time with soldiers, you would see this exquisite piece of equipment that had been on the sideline for 9 to 12 months at a time and we know how to 3D print the part. The part costs between two and $20 and and it was at scale.
▶ 1:56:50And so um one of the other things we're trying to do with um our current innovation and transformation is to start to take care of ourselves better and be more thoughtful about how to be stewards of the American taxpayers dollars. I appreciate that. And then how will the army ensure that small businesses with innovative and readily available artificial intelligence tools can contribute to the army's artificial intelligence ecosystem?
▶ 1:57:12Uh artificial intelligence and um the um these models that are out there, these generative AI models are incredible and um when I joined, I would have thought that there would be more places that we could start to use them. Um I think today as we sit here before you, we have a couple of places within our mostly special forces where they can apply some of that.
▶ 1:57:32Um, but until we get this data layer that syncs our people and our things and our sensors and allow the information to be exchanged quickly, generative AI probably won't be showing up into the kind of our formations uh in combat for at least a couple of quarters. But we're very optimistic that with the steps we're taking for command and control that we might be able to come back next year and say generative AI models are transforming how we're thinking about targeting and all of these other functions of war. My time my time's expired. Thank you very much. Thank you, gentlemen.
▶ 1:58:03M. McCullum. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I do have a a question for you in general at the end, but I'm going to submit uh for for the record to understand um better what um I I've been reading about about how the how and why you use non-disclosure agreements in the army.
▶ 1:58:21Um, we want to just to remind you, we want to follow up cost on on the southwest border uh issue versus uh what you might be having to sacrifice uh for your your role in China in the Pacific.
▶ 1:58:35Um I'm going to follow up also with a question on the Arctic and I'm asking I will be asking this of everyone workforce uh and the reductions and the way that that that is transforming and u your your discussions about uh taking 90,000 people out of active duty. So, it's been an interesting discussion today, but gentlemen, I noticed when reading your testimony and even in some of the questions here.
▶ 1:59:00Um, there are several changes that you're proposing for the army, but the Congress needs to be involved in this and this was not mentioned in your testimony and I'm and I'm sure it was not an oversight. you just assumed that we knew you were going to do that. But I think we need to hear from you going to do that because in October 2022, the Army announced uh the new transformation plan of Army, you know, 2030. And so now what what is that looking like?
▶ 1:59:28Um because in your your plan for 2030 was described as budget-informed multi-year plan prioritizing people and balancing warfighting readiness, aligning equipment, organizations, training and evolving um threats by major competition which is at the heart of what you've been talking about here today.
▶ 1:59:46But um if you were going to shift to a model that empowered um theaters and the core to work with other services and allies and partners and deliveristic report uh support yet we know that there was an unintent I'm going to say unintentional I don't assume the worst of people an unintentional failure a big one to notify the Marine Corps what you were doing with with one of your cancellations because it's part of a joint. So um you want to adjust the procurement process.
▶ 2:00:15We get that you've asked for agile funding proposals, but we don't the 24 baseline we're working off is a CR. We don't have the spend plan yet for 25. We don't have the budget for 26. You you're talking about getting back to us as we're marking up. So, there's a lot of work that needs to be done. So, we're going to need a lot of information from you. Justification documents for what you want to do.
▶ 2:00:44um that needs to be communicated to the Hill and to us. So to kind of sum up, where is 2023 fit in with agile funding proposal? We want to hear how you're going to work with Congress, with this committee, the Senate committee, even and yes, even the authorizers, how you're going to be working with with everyone because you might need authorization on some of this. So if you can get back to us your communication plan as well as your spend plan, that would be greatly appreciated. Mr. chair.
▶ 2:01:13Thank you for um giving me the opportunity to ask that question. Thank you. Thanks, gentle lady. Uh Mr. Quir, you have a special guest you want to introduce? Uh yes. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh ranking member, ranking member. Thank you so much. Members, I want to uh Mr. Secretary General, I want to introduce a young man and his um live in Laredo and live less than a mile from the river. Uh they're from Laredo.
▶ 2:01:37Uh Santiago uh is here with his dad and his And if I can just introduce him, there's a very special story and I'll say it later, but just want to have and mother and his godmother stand up on that. He is congressman for the day, so he'll be voting much better.
▶ 2:02:19Thank you so much. Thank you, J. Thank Thank you. Thank you. And I uh want to thank the secretary and General George for your testimony today. Obviously, a lot of change is taking place. We want to work with you. uh we're all on the same team uh and to to make sure this transformation is done well. And uh uh with that we are adjourned.