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▶ 0:11:46The subcommittee on the Middle East and North Africa will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is to explore the Bureau of Counterterrorism's placement in the State Department, the role and responsibilities of the bureau's leadership, and the execution of its programs. The chair now recognizes the ranking member from Florida, Representative Sherilis McCormack, for any statement that she may have. Thank you, Chairman Lawler, for convening this hearing on the State Department's Counterterrorism Bureau.
▶ 0:12:16I welcome this timely conversation with our two experts witnesses. Thank you for coming in today. We look forward to hearing your testimony. As we sit here, terrorism and violent extremism remain a growing threat that we must address with clear eyes and effective policy.
▶ 0:12:34According to the 2025 global terrorism index, the number of countries recording a terrorist attack increased by from 55 58 to 66, reversing nearly a decade of improvement. Today, 59 hostages remain captive in Gaza as a result of Hamas's brutal terror attacks on Israel on October 7th, including American Eden Alexander and the bodies of four other Americans.
▶ 0:13:02While Iranian proxies have been weakening and have been weakened and recent developments in Lebanon and Syria persist an opportunity for cautious optimism. ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hisba, Hamas and the Houthis remain an active threat in the Middle East have attacked the US ships and have even killed US servicemen.
▶ 0:13:25In Africa, the SE region including 10 countries, Bukina, Aas, Fasa, Mali, Niger, Cameroon, Guinea, Gambia, Sagal, Nigeria, Chad, and Maurice Moritania accounted for 19 of overall terror of all terrorist attacks worldwide, becoming the epicenter of global terrorism. These are just some of the threats that the CT bureau has been and must continue to address.
▶ 0:13:51I must also note that while the CT bureau is primarily focused on terrorism threats facing the US from abroad, we must remain vigilant to the ways terrorism threatens us here at home. In March, the Center of Strategic and International Studies published its annual global terrorism threat assessment which Dr. Bayam co-authored. I encourage my colleagues to read it carefully.
▶ 0:14:14The author's note notes that in contrast to the years following 911 in 2025 the greatest terrorist threats facing the United States is not foreign terrorist organizations but rather domestic terrorism. In 2025 the threat of terrorism is made worse is made more complex by terrorist organization and groups using digital assets, social media and misinformation to strengthen their operations across borders.
▶ 0:14:42We also know that the threat of terrorism is exacerbated by economic instability, political regression, famine, and climate change. The African countries I mentioned earlier, Syria, Yemen, and potentially Haiti have become ripe for recruitment if we are not careful and vigilant. But at the very moment, we need our counterterrorism toolbox full. This administration is hellbent on emptying it bit by bit.
▶ 0:15:09The arbit the arbitrary cuts to the foreign assistance program and the proposed 84% reduction in the state department and international assistant budget will leave us less prepared to address the threats of this global terrorism. So I look forward to having a robust expert-driven conversation about how we can support the CT bureau in the important work.
▶ 0:15:31I believe that if we ground our efforts in facts rather than fantasies, we can ensure the US is best positioned to address the multiaceted ways terrorism continues to threaten American cit citizens, our allies and the global stability. I yield back. Thank you to the ranking member. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Good afternoon and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 0:15:58From the Houthis in Yemen to al-Shabaab in Sahel to ISIS K in Afghanistan, global terrorism remains a persistent and evolving threat to the safety and security of Americans both at home and abroad. Terrorism not only endangers lives but also destabilizes regions, disrupts global commerce, and undermines US interests around the world.
▶ 0:16:22While countering violent extremism has long required a comprehensive whole of government approach, the threat landscape has evolved. Yet, our counterterrorism strategy has not kept pace. Therefore, today we gather to examine the specific and critical role of the coordinator for counterterrorism and the bureau of counterterrorism at the US Department of State in the modern threat landscape.
▶ 0:16:46Established by Congress in 1998, the position of coordinator for counterterrorism was created to serve as a central node for US diplomatic efforts to combat terrorism abroad. Now housed within the Bureau of Counterterrorism, the coordinator leads a team dedicated to advancing US counterterrorism policy and coordinating with partner nations in the global fight against terrorism.
▶ 0:17:10The bureau's work is multiaceted and consequential from engaging diplomatically with foreign partners to designating terrorist entities and implementing targeted assistance program. The bureau plays a vital role in our national security strategy. The bureau's mission also includes training foreign law enforcement, border control, and judicial officials to identify, disrupt, and prosecute terrorist actors and networks.
▶ 0:17:36These investments overseas deliver national security benefits here at home. However, to succeed in today's evolving threat environment, the bureau must operate as an integrated and effective player within the broader inter agency framework. This requires close coordination with key partners such as the Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control, the Department of Commerce's Bureau of Industry and Security, and a wide range of intelligence and law enforcement agencies.
▶ 0:18:06A clearly defined mission and delineated authorities are essential to ensure the bureau uh complements the work of its inter agency counterparts rather than duplicating efforts or creating conflicts. Effective coordination is especially vital when confronting state sponsors of terrorism, chief among them, Iran.
▶ 0:18:27In 2024 alone, Iran exported an estimated 587 million barrels of oil, marking a 10.75% increase from the previous year. These revenues likely continue to bankroll terrorist proxies, including Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis. I am particularly interested in how the bureau engages diplomatically and works across agencies to disrupt the financial and trade networks that fuel Iran's global campaign of terror.
▶ 0:18:56This includes ensuring that our security assistance aligns with counterterrorism priorities. The bureau is uniquely positioned to assess where partner nations fall short in counterterrorism capabilities, but it is not always clear how those assessments influence funding decisions. As we have seen with countries like Morocco and Lebanon, very different threat environments can result in nearly identical foreign military financing levels.
▶ 0:19:23We should consider whether the bureau ought to have more formalized role in prioritizing security assistance when counterterrorism is the primary objective. At a time when adversaries like China and Russia are actively seeking to undermine US leadership on counterterrorism, it is more critical than ever for Congress to evaluate and strengthen the authority, mission, and effectiveness of the coordinator of Through the reauthorization process, we will ensure that every dollar spent and
▶ 0:19:53every diplomat deployed is singularly focused on the safety and security of the American people. Under the leadership of the Trump administration, we now have the opportunity to re-evaluate and modernize our approach to counterterrorism and chart a stronger, more strategic path forward. Our witnesses today bring a wealth of firsthand experience both from leading the Bureau of Counterterrorism and from conducting extensive analysis of US counterterrorism and security policy.
▶ 0:20:21Their testimony will provide valuable insight into the structural and operational challenges facing the bureau and will help identify the key reforms and authorities needed from Congress to strengthen its effectiveness moving forward. With that, I want to again thank both of our witnesses for their testimony. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record.
▶ 0:20:48We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic. The Honorable Nathan A. Sales, former coordinator for counterterrorism at the US Department of State, and Dr. Daniel L. Lyman, director of the security studies program at Georgetown University. The committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and is grateful to have you both here to speak to us today.
▶ 0:21:14Your full statements will be made part of the record and I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for member questions. I now recognize Ambassador Sales for his opening statement. Thank you very much, Chairman Lawler. uh ranking me member Sherless McCormack and members of the subcommittee. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. The gist of my testimony is fairly simple. Counterterrorism still matters.
▶ 0:21:42It still matters even at a time when Washington's primary focus is on adversary states like China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea. Today's threat landscape, as we've already heard, is as complex and unpredictable as ever. After our withdrawal from Afghanistan, al-Qaeda is regrouping under the protection of its long-standing Taliban patrons. It reportedly built nine new camps in 2024 alone.
▶ 0:22:08ISIS's local affiliate, ISIS K, has shown it can strike far beyond Afghanistan's borders. Last March, it killed more than 140 people in Moscow. Under the Taliban's misrule, Afghanistan has once again become a safe haven for terror. No fewer than 21 terrorist groups are active on its soil. In Syria, we've seen a steady rise in attacks by ISIS remnants. Last year, ISIS conducted about 700 attacks in the country.
▶ 0:22:37That's an average of of almost 60 per month, almost triple the numbers from 2023. West Africa is becoming the epicenter of global counter of global terrorism. Last year, the Sahel region accounted for 51% of global terrorism related deaths. Five of the 10 countries in the world most affected by terrorism are in the Sahel.
▶ 0:22:59The situation in Nigeria is particularly concerning with extremist violence killing some 52,000 Christians since 2009. So why does all this matter to the United States? Well, first, we have a vital interest in preventing attacks on Americans abroad and ultimately on our homeland. In addition, terrorism can spark open warfare between states with far-reaching regional and even global consequences.
▶ 0:23:25We saw this in the aftermath of the October 7th attack on Israel by the Iranian regime's terror Hamas. Terrorism can unleash waves of migration that import security risks and upend domestic politics. As Europe has learned in recent years, hostile states like Russia know this all too well and they weaponize migration to destabilize their neighbors. Finally, keeping terrorist threats at bay gives leaders the space they need to address other geopolitical problems.
▶ 0:23:55A catastrophic attack would leave policymakers with little bandwidth for the urgent challenges posed by rival states. Which brings me to a key point. CT isn't some kind of distraction from higher priorities in an era of great power competition. It's a vital part of American grand strategy. CT cooperation can cement partnerships, aligning key states with Washington and detaching them from competitors.
▶ 0:24:21We are the security partner of choice and we can offer capabilities that our rivals can't match. This is especially true in Africa where China and Russia are both active. America and our African partners have the same goal. We want frontline states to be able to defend themselves on their own and not be perpetually dependent on Washington. Not so communist China, whose debt trap diplomacy creates vassels.
▶ 0:24:49And not so Russia, whose idea of security assistance is to send in Vagner mercenaries to brutalize innocent civilians. Furthermore, counterterrorism tools can be used to respond to statebacked proxy groups. Countries like Iran, North Korea, and Russia are increasingly relying on such proxies to do their dirty work. Assassinations, attacks on civilian infrastructure, even planting bombs on cargo planes.
▶ 0:25:14Sanctions, prosecutions, and other CT tools can impose meaningful costs on those responsible. They also negate the plausible deniability that led hostile states to use proxies in the first Let me close with a few suggestions to make the State Department's vital counterterrorism work more effective. First, look at consolidating in the CT bureau some of the counterterrorism responsibilities that are still spread across the State Department. There's some examples in my written statement.
▶ 0:25:44Second, streamline the process for reviewing foreign terrorist organizations. Under current law, CT bureau has to conduct a review every five years to determine whether to keep a designated FTO on the list. Those reviews are unnecessary as any group that renounces terrorism can file a petition for dellisting. Worse, the reviews consume scarce resources that could be better spent imposing new sanctions on new groups.
▶ 0:26:10Third, change the CT coordinator's official title to assistant secretary, the standard terminology used by most other State Department bureaus. And fourth, and finally, preserve state's traditional role as the central hub for the distribution of all foreign assistance. As the nation's pre-minent foreign policy agency, state is normally in the best position to assess and ensure that resources are aligned with mission. Mr. Chairman, Madame Ranking member, and members of the subcommittee, thank you again for your time, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:26:40Thank you, Ambassador Sales. I now recognize Dr. Bman for his opening statement. Thank you, Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherless McCormack, members of this distinguished subcommittee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify. I won't repeat what Ambassador Sale said uh about the evolving nature of the terrorism threat and especially his points on how it is incredibly consequential in Africa.
▶ 0:27:10I would also add, however, that the white supremacist threat has globalized and we're seeing interaction among white supremacists around the world. I would also note that China and particularly Russia are engaged in grayzone competition that also involves activities that we would consider support for terrorism, such as assassination and sabotage against civilian targets.
▶ 0:27:36To meet this evolving threat, the Bureau of Counterterrorism needs to remain an integral part of the overall US effort. Mr. Chairman, you mentioned whole of government effort and I believe the bureau should be at or near the center of that effort.
▶ 0:27:53It's an important coordinator in bilateral relations and multilateral forums, but it also helps integrate US intelligence, the military, and other instruments of US national Although most public attention on counterterrorism focuses on military operations, the bulk of the effort on a day-to-day basis against groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda is done by the security services of US allies and partners.
▶ 0:28:21These must be constantly coordinated, directed, and incentivized. And this task is accomplished in part through intelligence liaison, but also in part through vigorous diplomacy that the CT bureau helps coordinate.
▶ 0:28:37Integrating counterterrorism into overall diplomacy is critical and it's especially important in regions like the Middle East where at different times the United States has had regional policies that have not integrated counterterrorism and counterterrorism policies that haven't integrated regional realities.
▶ 0:28:56State Department programs that support law enforcement, border security, um, and other vital tasks are cost-effective and they improve the capabilities of US allies and partners and in so doing make the United States and the American people more secure. They do so at a fraction of the cost of many of military action and this can save many American lives.
▶ 0:29:19In addition, cutting these programs increases the terrorism risk to US allies and it also sends the wrong signal to them at a time of competition, especially with China. We need to ensure there remains a single high level entity at the State Department for coordinating We also need to make sure that the power to designate terrorist groups and state sponsors is used responsibly to ensure
▶ 0:29:49the credibility of US designations. I have the honor of sitting next to Ambassador Sales. I'd like to commend him and the CT bureau for the work they did in the first Trump administration in designating the first global white supremacist terrorist groups. That sort of action demonstrates that the United States is committed to fighting terrorism, regardless of the political ideology behind it.
▶ 0:30:11We do not want these lists to simply be uh an accounting of actors the United States does not like, no matter how horrific they are. The United States should be opposed to drug cartels, to gangs, and other nefarious actors. It should take steps to counter them. But the terrorism designation is not useful given that it doesn't fit what the terrorism designation was created for and creates complications for US businesses and US charities.
▶ 0:30:40Thank you again for this opportunity to testify. I look forward to your questions. Thank you Dr. Bman. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. Ambassador Sales, in your experience, does the current placement of the Bureau of Counterterrorism within the State Department allow it to fully leverage its authorities in leading inter agency CT strategy? Uh, thanks for the question, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:31:05Um, as you'll recall, during the Biden administration, CT bureau was moved from J, uh, the civil rights and human rights family of bureaus to P, political affairs, uh, which is where most of the regional bureaus are housed. Um I think Secretary Rubio's proposal to shift CT bureau to the T family, that is to say the the securityoriented bureaus makes a lot of sense.
▶ 0:31:29Um CT has natural synergies with arms control, preventing proliferation of weapons to terrorists in particular, uh preventing the use of chemical weapons by terrorists in particular. So I think um housing it in the T family would would make a lot of So to that end, if you can elaborate more, uh obviously Secretary Rubio as you point out uh released this new organizational chart uh moving it from uh P branch uh to T.
▶ 0:31:59What is uh what do you really believe the benefits of that are uh in more detail? Well, I think uh Mr. Chairman, there's a couple of benefits. One is um it will enable better coordination across the various state department bureaus that are collectively responsible for security.
▶ 0:32:19Um the arms control team, the law enforcement team, that is to say uh the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement and the CT team all work on the same set of issues, try to solve the same sorts of problems. Having them housed under the same umbrella I think makes it easier for them to coordinate with each other.
▶ 0:32:40How do you uh believe that the counterterrorism bureau helps facilitate coordination between the bureau of African affairs for instance or the bureau of near east affairs. Uh obviously this committee being Middle East and North Africa uh those those two uh are relevant to the counterterrorism issues that span both of those regions. Well, Mr.
▶ 0:33:05Chairman, I I think um the CT bureau has a really vital role to play there because it is laser focused on the challenge posed by terrorist groups. Um regional bureaus and this is a standard pushandpull dynamic no matter what the issue is in the state department. they tend to have a broader aperture for looking at problems in a region and no one problem um is always going to command the attention of the assistant secretary and the workforce in a regional bureau.
▶ 0:33:32So the interplay between a regional bureau like NEA which sees big picture what's American grand strategy in the Middle East and the CT bureau which can address specifically the problems posed by ISIS or al-Qaeda or other threats um is a very important dynamic. Ambassador Sales, what role does the Counterterrorism Bureau play in the policy development, implementation, and coordination of sanctions targeting terrorist organizations and their support networks?
▶ 0:34:01Um, I think it's one of the two most important bodies in the federal government um dealing with sanctions policy and sanctions execution. Uh so the division of labor uh between the CT bureau and the treasury department the other key player when it comes to terrorism sanctions is as follows.
▶ 0:34:19CT bureau has the authority to impose sanctions on those who engage in terrorism actual terrorist operatives actual terrorist organizations whereas the Treasury Department has the authority to impose sanctions on those that enable or facilitate or raise money for terrorist organizations. Um, and so the sometimes the the line between those different categories of behavior can be a bit blurry. And that's why I think it's very important for the CT bureau to have a good relationship uh with counterparts over at Treasury.
▶ 0:34:50The recent back and forth uh on the Houthi designation uh as a terrorist group raises questions about how consistent and effective our FTO designation process actually is. Uh, how does the bureau evaluate the long-term value of these designations, especially when they get reversed from one administration to the next? Uh, well, Mr. Chairman, um, during my time at state, we we were responsible for putting the Houthies on the list, and we did it because that's what the evidence dictated.
▶ 0:35:20This was an organization um that was committing terrorist attacks against energy infrastructure across the Middle East. um that had attacked actually the SA airport while uh the government in exile of Yemen was arriving and managed to kill I believe a number of uh UN humanitarian workers. Um so we simply looked at the facts and that's the way the CT bureau uh typically approaches FTO designations in my experience. Um we have a legal standard engage in terrorist activity.
▶ 0:35:48Um we look at the evidentiary record that's compiled by open- source information as well as more uh exquisite forms of information. Um, and then it's ultimately up to the secretary to make a call as to whether uh the evidence meets the legal standard. So, you support the redesation of the Houthis as a terrorist organization? Absolutely. If they haven't earned it, I'm not sure who has. Uh, thank you very much. My time has expired. I now recognize uh the gentleman from California, Mr.
▶ 0:36:18Sherman, for five minutes. Thank you. Yesterday was a big day at the State Department. It was fork in the road day. I don't know how many um State Department people have uh taken the check and are leaving. Uh we'll find that out uh soon. Mr. Bman, uh we're here focused on the Bureau of Uh how much in if if if that bureau is cut by 15%.
▶ 0:36:47Uh does that endanger Americans? The Bureau of Counterterrorism, their work is critical. It's truly life or death and it keeps me safe. It keeps my family safe. It keeps everyone here safe. So I think the bureau is already underfunded, is already overstretched. And to cut it further means the programs will be less effective, means there'll be less coordination and to me that's very dangerous. And we'll be more vulnerable to terrorism. Yes. Uh gotcha.
▶ 0:37:19Um the popular resistance committees are uh the third largest terrorist group based in Um they have killed Americans. They have engaged in a whole host of terrorism before October 7th and were full participants on October 7th. Uh Mr. Sales, any reason we wouldn't designate the popular uh well my bill to designate them? We shouldn't be doing this here.
▶ 0:37:49The State Department should be doing it. It my bill to to designate them passed this committee unanimously. But is there a reason why we haven't designated them? I realize they're not as big as the other two, but they're third on the list. Yeah. Um, bronze medal is still um on the on the trophy stand.
▶ 0:38:06So, um you I I think any any group that is targeting people, targeting innocent civilians, targeting Israeli soldiers, um for for deadly violence that meets the standards should certainly be on the State Department's radar screen. And I realize they were once affiliated with FATA and that is uh a less uh uh terrorist organization than than other uh Palestinian organizations.
▶ 0:38:33But they did kill um three American service guards uh back in 2003. Um I want to focus a bit on uh crypto. There was a huge division in this uh body many years ago about some argued that our economic that our use of the dollar, our banking sanctions on Iran were so effective that we could have gotten a better nuclear deal.
▶ 0:39:00And some thought that the sanctions using the banking system were so effective that we did get a good deal. But both sides who agreed were violently opposed to each other on the whether the deal was good agreed why we were able to get a deal. Um right now uh we have maybe 10,000 transactions a day in uh crypto. We've got billions of dollars a day transactions a day.
▶ 0:39:29I that I'm saying transactions not dollars uh in dollars. So it's a lot easier to keep track of crypto uh unless it becomes a currency and becomes something that in tens of millions of transactions occur every day. Um I crypto aspires to be a major currency.
▶ 0:39:50Um, if uh oil transactions could take place uh in crypto, would that undermine our ability to bring Iran to the table? Um, Congressman, if that's for me, I I think um the concern you've raised is something that policymakers should worry about very much. That said, um I think there are still pressure points that can be used uh to apply to the Iranian regime, to force them to the table.
▶ 0:40:20um insurance companies for instance uh are are potential pressure points. Shipping companies are potential pressure points um and various other economic players um that are enablers of illicit Iranian energy ships. But other other countries have insurance companies. Other countries have fleets of ships. In fact, far more than we do. Only one country controls the currency that is accepted for international petroleum transactions. I'd asked to put in the record this article.
▶ 0:40:47FBI bus $ 1.5 million Hamas cryptocurrency ring into the record without objection. And uh I'll ask our uh other witness whether if crypto became a true uh rival to the dollar. Millions of transactions a day accepted for inter uh for uh international petroleum transactions. Would that undermine our sanctions?
▶ 0:41:16Crypto right now encompasses a large number of very legitimate uh business entities and a wild range of alternatives. And to the extent that different cryptocurrencies want to become legitimate and want to enjoy the rights and benefits and transactions, they need to also accept the rules. And that includes preventing their use by terrorist entities. And whether that is Iran, whether that is different terrorist groups, they need to be cooperating with Treasury.
▶ 0:41:45They need to be cooperating with investigators and if that's not done, you spend any time listening to the advocates of crypto, you know, that's exactly what they're not going to do. And I yield back. Gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize the gentleman from South Carolina and the chairman ameritus of the Middle East and North Africa subcommittee, Joe Wilson. And thank you very much, chairman. I'm very happy to be a maritai. This is good as we speak Latin here. But aside from that, I want to thank both of you for being here today.
▶ 0:42:14and thank you for your service to the American people. And indeed, Dr. Bum, I appreciate you were talking about the the enemies of freedom are working together. Uh, and somehow there just needs to be an understanding uh that we're in a conflict we didn't choose. And these are dictators who rule by gun invading democracies who rule by law. And uh it really started February 24, 2023 when War Colonel Putin invaded Ukraine.
▶ 0:42:41Then on October 7, 2024, you had Iran through its puppets invade Israel. Uh the aggression has continued and that uh and you have the aggression of war criminal Putin. You have the regime in Thran and then you have the Chinese Communist Party.
▶ 0:42:58And so thank you for referencing that indeed um we've got uh enemies uh that are working together and uh people of good faith and persons who truly want to promote freedom and democracy need to be working together in every way. And for both of you in recent years we've seen disturbing levels of subversion of the government of Iraq by Iran backed terrorist organizations and militias.
▶ 0:43:22They wield substantial influence over all branches of government and overtly support Iran Iran friendly policy. Additionally, I'm particularly concerned because two of my sons have served in Iraq uh with the intent of promoting uh freedom for the uh people of Iraq. And so to see the Iranian influence to me is is just uh inconceivable of what's going on.
▶ 0:43:47And with uh that each of you, what is the level of the Iranian uh strategy uh of taking over Iraq through its military puppets? And how is the bureau adjusting its counterterrorism approach to deal with the growing activity of uh Iranian puppets as Iran continues to develop a nuclear capability? Well, well, thank you um Congressman for that question. I think you're exactly right. Um Iraq really is at a crossroads.
▶ 0:44:15um it has to choose whether it wants to be um a vassal state to its neighbor or whether it wants to be a free and prosperous democracy um engaged in trade and commerce with the United States and our allies. I I think um I Iran has tools that the United States doesn't have for influence in Iran. It can threaten in Iraq, I should say, it can threaten to kill Iraqi parliamentarians. It can threaten to kill um their families. It can offer bribes.
▶ 0:44:45The United States doesn't play that game. We're not going to stop playing the game the way we play it. So, what we need to do is make sure that we are applying pressure to Iran's tools of influence in Iraq. That includes sanctioning the terrorist groups, the militias that use force domestically against protesters, that use force against American soldiers and diplomats. Um, it means limiting using the power of the dollar to limit Iran's influence over the Iraqi economy.
▶ 0:45:14In particular, um, the continued need for Iraq to purchase energy from its neighbor. Um, giving waiverss to Iraq, which has been done for many years to allow those transactions to continue is a gift to the Mullies. It gives them more leverage um, over a very fragile Iraqi government and economy. Needs to stop. Thank you, sir, for that question.
▶ 0:45:40There is a decline in US influence in Iraq that has been steady now in multiple administrations for some time. And despite the sacrifices of American soldiers, despite the service of your sons, the United States has largely walked away from Iraq. And this occurred even as Iran's position there has been weakened by Israeli military action.
▶ 0:46:05And we've seen emboldened Iraqi civil society actors more willing to push back against Iran even though they face as the ambassador pointed out a true threat to their very lives. Uh part of the role of the State Department should be encouraging greater US effort in Iraq should be increasing the number of people we have on the ground there. should be ensuring that the United States has a robust military presence in the region.
▶ 0:46:30Um, and also playing a critical role in coordinating US allies, Saudi Arabia, Israel, others with a strong interest there. Um, unfortunately, I think we're going in the wrong direction on Iraq and I hope that this committee can push it in the proper direction. Well, your influence will be very helpful and indeed we know that uh oil has been transferred from Iran to Iraq under the understanding it's from Iraq. No, it's not. It's from Iran.
▶ 0:46:54And then uh incredibly tragic is with the uh dictatorship in Damascus, Assad fleeing to Moscow appropriately. In fact uh in uh Iraq today, the Iranian training of uh forces to try to overthrow the new government that we have such high hopes will be successful for the people of Syria. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Wilson. I now recognize uh the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr.
▶ 0:47:24Keading, for five minutes. Thank you, Chairman. Dr. Binham, uh in particular, you know, if we uh are looking at the important issues of uh reorganization to try and be more efficient and more effective. Certainly, that's the course we should all embark on here.
▶ 0:47:43But you know without dealing with the root causes and having a policy that focuses on the root causes without dealing with partnerships because this is a global threat uh it won't mean anything. It' be reorganization be akin to moving around the deck chairs uh in the Titanic. It won't accomplish anything. So getting into the root causes there's real problems that I see now uh and and partnerships. Dr.
▶ 0:48:09Martin, can you briefly talk about the value and the necessity of global partners? Thank you for the question, Keing. The dayto-day of counterterrorism is largely done through US allies and partners. They have the forces on the ground, whether that is law enforcement or intelligence or military.
▶ 0:48:32Um they also often have capabilities because they are dealing with domestic problems that have ramifications for the United States. Um at the same time there are zones of chaos. There are angry populations and US programs to counter extremism are designed to help manage or at least reduce.
▶ 0:48:53You're concerned uh sir about some of the cuts that have occurred to our allied nations and and the the cuts that are there through USAD and other sources that really are necessary to help build up our effectiveness in counterterrorism. These programs are necessary for our allies to be strong including on counterterrorism and cutting them is a setback for the United States. Those partnership capabilities they include intelligence sharing. They do. Uh isn't it concerning?
▶ 0:49:21It is to me that with Signalgate and and everything you see going on with the scandal there that the US has really called into question its ability to manage its own intelligence to keep these kind of discussions private. And I look at the uh thwarted plot in Vienna. If it wasn't for global partners here and information that could be shared and trusted, it wouldn't have been thwarted.
▶ 0:49:46So, uh, isn't that isn't it integral to our ability to deal with partners that they trust that the intel they share stays there and is not something that, uh, can be so easily breached as was with the signal messaging that occurred with with Secretary Hesk, Admiral McRaven, the uh, former head of uh, special operations command, used to talk about uh, you can't surge trust, and that trust is something that you could spend years
▶ 0:50:16working on and then it could break in a day and it's vital that we preserve that especially for intelligence sharing and the the other getting to the root abilities we have together it's so important that the US uh showed that they have the strongest adherence to rule of law isn't that the case yes wouldn't you think that having the president of the United States who was just asked in the last week uh whether or not he would uh you know defend our constitution here in our own country and his reply saying well I don't know Uh, isn't that something
▶ 0:50:46that generally would be unnerving to allies and partners at that level to say we wouldn't adhere to our own rule of law? One thing we see throughout the world is that successful counterterrorism depends on a fundamental commitment to the rule of law that when we move away from it, we may have momentary successes, but over time it corrupts the governments and corrupts our partnerships. So, it's rule of law is vital, sir. Yeah.
▶ 0:51:15uh and in your opening remarks and and statements you were dealing with issues and the concerns with white supremist groups and I I also have that concern. I was dealing with making sure uh with appropriations that we fully fund uh the racially and eth ethnically motivated violent extremism causes we have. Can you really deal if you really put any hierarchy on the threats we have? How high is that threat? Uh it's an extremely high threat sir.
▶ 0:51:44You look back at violence in the United States just in terms of death toll in recent years, white supremacists have been at the very top of that list and I think everyone agrees that's a threat that needs to be countered. Great. Well, thank you very much. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Kading. I now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Isa, for five minutes. Thank you, Ambassador. Uh, you know, we have an expression that we use so often here that partisanship ends at the w's edge.
▶ 0:52:14Unfortunately, we're nowhere close to the wat's edge, I guess, uh, to today's hearings to a certain extent. Back to the question of the the moving of the U, the counterterrorism. You obviously have an expertise about the ability to keep secrets, the working with partners, all of that. Correct. I'd like to think so, Congressman. Well, you had the job and you did a good job.
▶ 0:52:38So, given that and given the the broad uh historic area that the under secretary for political affairs has versus the new position in a sense, aren't we moving it to the the secretary is moving it to a more secure used to working with things that you keep close to the vest? you negotiate in order to get the the end results you want, usually without disclosure. I I think that's right, Congressman.
▶ 0:53:07I think um moving the CT bureau into the T family, uh where all of the other security related bureaus are located makes a lot of sense, including for the reason you've just identified. Okay. So, we'll we'll just leave it as moving it to the right place for the right reason could in fact be a good decision from a uh a US senator. now secretary who has looked at this on a national security basis for his decade of of service here.
▶ 0:53:36Uh but one other question that that that this begs too. Isn't this one of the most important positions going forward as as we look at global issues, trade issues, cyber security, all kinds we've got all kinds of issues that are that are global, but this issue to a great extent is the issue that bit us in the back end on 9/11.
▶ 0:54:01This is the issue that for example uh has led to attacks around the world to our allies. So, isn't this one of those issues where you have to give it to somebody who isn't looking at the broad policy of the day and all the things that are in vogue, but in fact diligently working on something that could happen anywhere at any time if you take your your view away from that specific issue?
▶ 0:54:28I I think absolutely um counterterrorism is a no-fale mission. um if if a diplomat um offends an assistant minister someplace, then you have to send a a note of apology. Um if counterterrorism safeguards fail, um Americans die. So, it's absolutely critical that this issue remain a priority across the government.
▶ 0:54:52And um as I said in my opening statement that that doesn't mean that this is a distraction from America's broader strategic objectives. Counterterrorism tools and counterterrorism partnerships are precisely one way that we can advance our strategic objectives against our rival states that are increasingly acting together and with terrorist organizations. look no further than the Iranian regime uh sending drones to Putin to be used in strikes against Ukrainian civilians in Kev.
▶ 0:55:23I mean that's up that's what we're up against here and CT can be part of solving that problem. Well and continuing along that theme gentleman from Massachusetts Mr. Keating seemed to imply in his questions that if we if we just did more to end poverty and misunderstandings and you know I don't know the the myriad of issues the dog good issues if you will not saying they're not important but that somehow that would be as effective as actually fighting counterterrorism. Would you agree with that?
▶ 0:55:52Congressman in my experience the most effective counterterrorism programs are the nuts and bolts. training prosecutors, training judges to handle terrorism cases, um assisting uh foreign ministries finance to help track the money and impose sanctions on terrorist groups. Um things that matter on the front lines of terrorism in my experience have been the most effective way to keep Americans safe.
▶ 0:56:16And perhaps just to put a bow on this, uh, was Osama bin Laden somehow poor, disadvantaged, or in some other way, uh, brought to terrorism because of things that foreign aid would help with. Um, I I think his family's extreme wealth um, would have made him ineligible for a USAD grant. Okay. So, uh, again, I'll I'll put a second bow on this just to be sure. and and and doctor, I'll give you the last of the last answer for a moment.
▶ 0:56:47Aren't there distinct differences between how we fight terrorism where we see it and how we fight poverty and other things which may allow people to be induced to join terrorist but per se doesn't create the terrorist regimes. I think there is a definite distinction sir between the programs. My caveat is in some places though there is overlap and especially some of the places that the ambassador mentioned in Africa where government is weak.
▶ 0:57:17Building government making it stronger helps us fight terrorism and some of the aid aid programs play that role. I certainly agree. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative. I now recognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Schneider, for five minutes. Uh thank you, Mr. chairman and thank you to the witnesses for joining us. Uh the State Department's Bureau of Counterterrorism plays a critical role in safeguarding our national security.
▶ 0:57:42I think we all agree how important it is to make sure we keep Americans and American interests safe around the world and in and here at home. We have to promote global stability and protect the lives of American citizens or else we aren't doing our job. For decades, the Bureau of Counterterrorism, commonly commonly known as CT, has served as the strategic hub for international efforts to combat terrorism.
▶ 0:58:04The CT bureau cultivates partnerships with foreign governments, coordinates with multilateral organizations focused on peace building, and bolsters the capacity of nations to detect, disrupt, and defeat terrorist threats before they reach our shores. We all agree we must continue to invest in this critical body and the counterterrorism workforce. The CT bureau's efforts are not abstract diplomacy.
▶ 0:58:28The eight programs and forum for forums within the bureau save lives each and every day through initiatives like the anti-terrorism assistance ATA program CT bureau has helped train more than 150,000 law enforcement security officials in more than 100 countries. These partnerships have directly prevented violent attacks, disrupted terrorist networks, and captured dangerous extremists intent on inciting civil unrest.
▶ 0:58:54Ambassador Sales, in your opening remarks, you said CT still matters and you went on to list in countries around the globe where those threats are not just still existent but indeed growing. So I want to be clear diminishing the Bureau of Counterterrorism I believe would be a profound mistake. Terrorism is invol is evolving. Today's terrorist organizations are more diffuse, more digitally connected, more skilled in exploiting fragile regimes as you talked about in Africa.
▶ 0:59:23And so in your testimony um ambassador, you had a couple of recommendations. Your first is to consolidate programs not currently in the CT bureau but within the Department of State under the CT bureau, making it more powerful, more influential, more effective, not less. And your second recommendation, I believe, is to elevate the um director, the head of the CT bureau to an assistant secretary status. Is that correct?
▶ 0:59:53Uh yes yes yes congressman but in the new state department org chart it shows it being moved from the P family to the T family. This committee is yet to be briefed on the reasoning for that decision. You note CD work is essential and I would argue as you said I agree it should be elevated not not diminished with the proposed cuts to funding this administration's attack on our allies through tariffs etc. I worry the bureau's importance will be diminished and its coordination, work and effectiveness also diminished.
▶ 1:00:24What is the consequence of transferring it to the T family of lowering its its um priority or its um its um profile whether it's in Africa or the Middle East. Is this the right approach do you think uh dealing with the bureau? Well, Congressman, I I share very much your concern that CT as an issue and CT bureau as an organization not be diminished in any way.
▶ 1:00:50Um, I don't think with respect that moving it from one silo in the State Department to another silo in the State Department would have that effect. You know, when CT was originally created back in 1972, it was part of the office of the secretary. It moved to the the so-called J family. Um, when I was acting under secretary, CT was part of my portfolio. In the Biden administration, it moved to the P family.
▶ 1:01:11So it's it's had a number of organizations that but do you believe that the way the administration the way the secretary of state is talking about the CT bureau the moves they're making is that elevating the profile or diminishing the profile of the bureau.
▶ 1:01:25Well, I think moving it to the T family makes a lot of sense and I think it elevates it in so far as it creates synergies between CT bureau, the arms control people, the law enforcement people, um other bureaucrats, um other units that are responsible for the security uh issues. I think that elevates the the importance, but you're saying it should be elevated, not diminished. That is I agree with that, Congressman. Do Dr. Bryham.
▶ 1:01:49Um, do you view the the reorganization plan as a shift in priorities or do you see uh see it the way the ambassador does? So, my honest answer, sir, is um I don't know. We haven't received clear reasoning on the logic of the move and I'm a little disappointed to learn that the subcommittee has not received that either.
▶ 1:02:10uh in general the regional bureaus have been bureaucratically stronger than the functional bureaus and so moving it out of P does have potential consequences but as the ambassador knows so well much depends on the head of the CT bureau's relationship with the secretary and that is going to vary by how much attention Secretary Rubio um gives CT but the discussion of significant budget cuts doesn't bode well for the elevation of CT concerns All right.
▶ 1:02:40Uh, thank you. I'm out of time. Uh, but I do appreciate the comments and I hope we do maintain the high profile of uh, counterterrorism. It keeps our nation secure and our people safe. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Schneider. I would just note for the record uh, the secretary staff and the state department staff have come and met with the staff of uh, the full committee uh, both the majority and the minority.
▶ 1:03:05the ranking member staff uh was part of the briefing with respect to the uh reorganization uh of the chart. So they do have uh information uh and I would certainly uh encourage my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to reach out to the ranking members office for more information. In fairness, they did not talk about the CT bureau. They talked about the reorganization chart.
▶ 1:03:29Um, I now recognize for five minutes uh the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this important hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses for your testimony today. The world has increasingly become a more dangerous place due to the Biden administration's failed leadership, leaving our enemies more empowered in America and our allies more vulnerable than ever.
▶ 1:03:55While the previous administration was hyperfocused on advancing radical DEI initiatives, we repprioritize the safety and security of the American people above all else. And that begins with re-examining the structure of the Department of State. This committee is holding hearings that will optimize the agency to better serve and protect our national security while efficiently using taxpayer dollars. Historically, our national defense and security has spanned multiple agencies with different specialties and different approaches.
▶ 1:04:23However, inefficient intelligence sharing and coordination has plagued federal has plagued the federal government leading to duplicate duplicative entities and significant intelligence gaps, not to mention wasted dollars. Ambassador Sales, from your experience, what were the biggest barriers to coordination between the Counterterrorism Bureau and other key inter agency actors such as the National Security Council, the Department of Defense, the CIA, and others in the intelligence community?
▶ 1:04:52What authorities or reporting lines could be reformed to reduce duplication and improve outcomes? Uh, it's a great question, Congressman, and um, we could probably have an entire hearing just on that. In my experience, um, the challenges of coordination derive from different mission sets. Um, the State Department mission is different from the intelligence community's mission, is different from the defense department's mission.
▶ 1:05:17And when you sit around the table at a policy coordinating committee or at a principal committee, um you're going to see differences of opinion stemming from those uh sort of bureaucratic and turf uh uh necessities. Um but also I think the way to solve those is clear lines of communication between the CT coordinator and the secretary of state.
▶ 1:05:38If the secretary cares about your issue, if the secretary um uh is prepared to expend capital to move the ball forward on your issue, you can sort of steamroll a lot of that opposition that might come up during the inter agency process. Thank you. And I agree. I you know, we want to decrease wasted time, money, and duplicate efforts. We want to get get rid of all of that stuff.
▶ 1:06:00But are there actually times where these different authorities actually work to our benefit in countering violent extremist organizations and other types of terrorism? I I I think so. Um and I I don't I don't mean to short change um the good that can come from robust inter agency conversation.
▶ 1:06:18um if one agency wants to impose sanctions on a group um but that would complicate for example the ability of the defense department to maintain force protection you know that's something that needs to come out right that's something that the inter agency needs to take very seriously um if on the other hand the imposition of sanctions on a politician is going to cause problems for uh uh diplomats who want to engage with that politician that's also something that needs to come out in the inter agency discussions now that's not to say that you should or shouldn't do something
▶ 1:06:48only that um these sorts of issues need to be aired in a transparent way among cabinet principles who trust each other. Yeah, that's that the deconlicting is absolutely you know key and I I think that's kind of what you're describing here deconlicting some of that stuff. It's been my experience also being on the uh intelligence committee that uh not only the deconliction but sometimes there are actual authorities that one uh entity will have that the other entity doesn't and they can work with each other uh to accomplish more in the end.
▶ 1:07:17Uh so I just wanted to point that out as well. I thank you both for your time today and with that Mr. Chairman I yield back. Thank you Mr. Jackson. I now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee Mr. Burchett for five minutes. Thank you Mr. Chairman. appreciate the opportunity. Um, I'm gonna change courses here with y'all. Um, are any of y'all aware that the Biden State Department sent billions of taxpayer dollars to the Taliban?
▶ 1:07:45And did the CT bureau oppose this decision? Uh, well, Congressman, I I'm I can't speak to the CT bureau's reaction. Um, I was a private citizen at the time watching from the sidelines. Um it is my understanding um that the CT bureau or sorry that um the defense department um unfortunately during the uh botched withdrawal did leave behind a substantial amount of military hardware um in the hands of our enemies. Right.
▶ 1:08:13Well, there's currently money that's being sent in the form of aid. We found that $40 million a week is going to the Taliban. And I've been trying for about a year to stop that. And it seems um now the the State Department is looking into Um, does the CT bureau believe there's any ideological differences between the Taliban, ISIS, and al-Qaeda? And if so, what are those differences?
▶ 1:08:39Well, Congressman, just speaking for myself, um, these terrorist groups that you mentioned have certain things in common and certain things that differ from each other. One one thing that they all share is a desire to kill as many Americans as possible. Um, ideally here in the homeland, but if that isn't possible, then to do it abroad. um and meanwhile to uh do the same thing to Jews and to citizens of other allied states. Um there's theological and ideological differences between them. Al-Qaeda is patient in trying to establish a caliphate.
▶ 1:09:08Uh ISIS wants it now. Um but in terms of tactics and in terms of um objectives with respect to the United States, they are unremittingly hostile and that's something they share in common. I guess y'all view the Taliban as a terrorist organization though, correct? Well, they they certainly walk like it and talk like it. Well, I know that some people consider them a counterterrorism ally against ISIS kind of enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of situation. I'm wondering what y'all think.
▶ 1:09:39Um I think some people do share that view. I'm not one of them. Um I it is the case that the Taliban and ISIS um are enemies. They see each other as adversaries. Um they both seek control of Afghanistan. Um but just because ISIS is a designated terrorist group doesn't mean that we should blind ourselves to um the very real reality of atrocities committed by the Taliban.
▶ 1:10:04Um the Taliban works handin glove with the Hakani network which is an al-Qaeda affiliate which is a US designated terrorist organization. Uh Hakani figures are senior members of the Taliban government. I'm using that term advisedly. Taliban regime is probably a better term. Um, so no, nobody should expect that the Taliban's interests in degrading ISIS are similar in any way to the interest of the United States in eliminating counter terrorist threats in Afghanistan as such.
▶ 1:10:34How does the State Department coordinate counterterror financing actions with the government as a whole? Well, um, state works very closely with policy makers at Treasury, um, and also OFAC, which is part of Treasury and which has, uh, I would characterize it as more of a ministerial type role, administrative type role, uh, in administering sanctions.
▶ 1:10:56Um the State Department sanctions related to terrorism typically get imposed on individuals and organizations that are actively engaged in terrorism such as al-Qaeda. Whereas Treasury which has its own sanctions authorities for terrorism will typically focus on uh financeers or enablers money uh launderers and those who are otherwise providing support to terrorism. I'm always um aware of and and cautious of folks.
▶ 1:11:24They're our friends until they're not our friends and it generally turns out bad. If you want to jump in on any of this, sir, you jump in as well. Um are there efforts by the State Department uh is any efforts they can make to streamline counterterror efforts within the federal Sir, there's a lot that can be done to streamline different aspects of the federal government.
▶ 1:11:47uh it's always difficult with huge organizations to have that coordination and sometimes you have the military going in one direction and the white house going in another and that's been common in multiple organizations. Um so you need a strong coordinator sir you need someone who is empowered as close to a secretary and thus people who will listen to and that enables more streamlining. It always bothers me as well. It seems when history plays out that we're on both sides of a lot of these conflicts.
▶ 1:12:15And again only people that pays out for is Street. Um what international partners can we rely on to assist with some of these counter uh terror financing efforts? And I'm out of time, so give me a name. Uh the UK has been an enormously uh powerful force enabler.
▶ 1:12:37Um, when you lock a terrorist group out of the US financial system and the British financial system, um, you put some real hurt on their ability to raise and move money. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Kaine, for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:13:02As we evaluate the State Department's counterterrorism programs, we must ensure that tools such as sanctions, diplomacy, and foreign assistance are being used strategically and effectively. Terrorist groups have adapted and authoritarian adversaries like Iran, Russia, and China are using influence and instability to undermine US efforts abroad.
▶ 1:13:26Ambassador Sales, as Congress considers its authorization of the State Department and counterterrorism bureau, how can we ensure that its mandate and resources are better aligned with the threats facing Israel, our closest ally in the Middle East from Iranianbacked terrorist groups like Hamas uh or Hezbollah? Well, I think that's a really important question. It's always an important question.
▶ 1:13:50Uh it's become an even more important question in the aftermath of the October 7 atrocities perpetrated by Hamas which of course is um a key proxy terror proxy of the Iranian regime. Um I think you have to address the head of the octopus not just the tentacles.
▶ 1:14:07Um, Iran has built or had built before Israel successfully degraded it, um, a network of terrorist organizations that encircle the Jewish state from Hezbollah in the north to Hamas in the south, uh, to Palestinian Islamic Jihad to others. Um, the Houthis getting involved in the game as well. Um, all of that that entire network runs through Tyrron. That entire network runs through the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. um in order to degrade it.
▶ 1:14:38There's kinetic ways to do that, but there are financial ways to do it as well. You have to cut off the flow of money um to that far-flung network of of terrorist organizations. That includes restoring maximum pressure on Iranian energy exports. It means sanctioning the groups themselves, going after their own finances. Um you know, I think the president was very clear just yesterday talking about the Iranian nuclear program, no program at all. Um, in order to get there, and I think he's 100% right, we should not settle for a JCPOA 2.0.
▶ 1:15:08Um, in order to get the Iranians to budge, we're going to have to reimpose maximum pressure and squeeze their economy. That's going to result in a better nuclear deal. But to your question, Congressman, that's also going to result in a defanged terrorist network that could hurt Israel and that can hurt us. Thank you, Dr. uh Bman.
▶ 1:15:30How can the reauthorization process be used to reinforce the bureau's use of sanctions, designations, and foreign assistance tools to deny space, funding, and legitimacy to Iran's uh terror proxy network operating near or against Israeli territory? So, sir, I think part of it is hearings like this that call attention to Iran's support for terrorism around the world.
▶ 1:15:55I think much of it though is making sure that programs that are designed to counter Iranian influence are well funded and well staffed and that includes programs uh in different parts of the Middle East. It includes programs around the world that are going after the financing of terrorism and having a very robust counterterrorism uh program is vital.
▶ 1:16:18And one of the um members before mentioned how on 911 we were caught by surprise and looking back one of the problems was so many US bureaucracies were not focused on terrorism and making sure that all the different parts of the US government um maintain this focus is vital. Thank you, Ambassador Sales.
▶ 1:16:39What specific tools has a counterterrorism bureau deployed or could be using more effectively to disrupt the Iranian proxy network threatening Israel, specifically against designated terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas? Well, I think one of the most important steps that that CT bureau took was to designate Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a foreign terrorist organization.
▶ 1:17:02um that was done in 2019 and it was groundbreaking in the sense that it was the first time the United States government had ever imposed terrorism sanctions of this sort on a state entity. Um so I think um pressing other countries to follow America's lead and impose similar sanctions under their authorities um on the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is a key piece.
▶ 1:17:27Another key thing I think is um internationalizing the American approach to sanctions on Hezbollah. A lot of countries like to say, well, there's the military wing and we'll sanction them, but there's the humanitarian wing of Hezbollah and we don't want to interfere with that. They're a political party in Lebanon with important constituency, so we'll artificially cordon off this other this other element and leave it untouched. That approach doesn't work. Um, Hezbollah does not see itself as split into a civilian side and a military side.
▶ 1:17:57It is one organization. It's a terrorist organization. Um, I would like to see the State Department continue to press partner governments, uh, allied governments around the world follow our lead in sanctioning Hezbollah in its entirety. Thank you both for your testimony. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Kaine. I now recognize myself for a second round of questions for five minutes.
▶ 1:18:22Uh, Ambassador Sales, both China and Russia are now vying with the US for influence abroad, especially in regions like Africa and South and Central Asia. How does CT bureau navigate the waters of ensuring the US maintains its key partners in the fight against terrorism when resources are finite and increasingly being directed towards great power competition? Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:18:51That's that's a great question and I think one of the ways I would answer it is to say that providing counterterrorism assistance in Africa in particular and in South Asia in particular um is a way of advancing our u grand strategy. It is a way of advancing our interests um with respect to nation state rivals like China and Russia. Um Africa is on the front lines of the fight against terrorism.
▶ 1:19:20They they face a dizzying array of terrorist groups from al-Qaeda affiliates to ISIS affiliates to Boka Haram to others. Um we can help them in ways that no other country can. China is not in a position to provide counterterrorism assistance. Russia will make a big show of it by sending Vagner mercenaries in. But as more than one head of state said to me while in government, "We tried it the Russian way. It didn't work.
▶ 1:19:46We want to work with America." Um, so I think maintaining America's engagement, providing nuts and bolts counterterrorism assistance, rapid response teams that can put down assaults in real time, training police, training prosecutors, training judges. That kind of assistance helps defeat terrorist threats that threaten us, but also helps lay down a marker that America is here to help you and brings those frontline states into our camp and detaches them from our enemies.
▶ 1:20:16So continuing down that path, can you use an example from the current threat landscape to illustrate the role of the CT bureau and US counterterrorism efforts contrasted with Russian and and Chinese influence? Absolutely. Um unfortunately the example I'm about to share is uh one in the opposite direction. Um the United States until fairly recently had a robust counterterrorism partnership with Nger.
▶ 1:20:44um in recent years, recent months, we have seen Nishair pivot away from the United States uh towards Russia. And so where the United States previously was able to operate a significant drone base in Agadez from which we collected intelligence information about local terrorist threats and applied pressure to those local terrorist threats. We have now seen that base close down, the American presence uh diminish to nothing. Um and Vagner mercenaries come in.
▶ 1:21:12That's bad for us from a global power competition standpoint. Russia's rise is our decline in that country. But it also means that that country is not going to be uh in a position to seriously degrade the terrorist threats that it faces because the Vagner approach steal natural resources uh inflict harm on civilian populations is not a sustainable way. It's not an effective way to fight terrorism.
▶ 1:21:36So, if I if I may offer a word of advice to to my friends in the new administration and friends in Congress, getting back into West Africa um has to be an urgent priority for the new administration. Appreciate that.
▶ 1:21:50Um, on a separate note, how can the bureau further utilize its convening power and platforms like the counter transnational terrorism forum established to increase awareness and understanding of Iranian sponsored and directed terrorist activity to continue to allow the United States to play a lead role in international coordination on CT? Uh, well, Mr.
▶ 1:22:14chairman, I think other countries will participate in these fora to the extent they think it matters to the United States. Um, and I I when I was uh the CT coordinator, I I could tell my counterparts, I could tell assistant secretaries and foreign governments, we need you to be there to talk about the Iranian threat. And as a courtesy, they'd come. But if you really want to move foreign governments, it needs to be a priority at the level of the secretary. It needs to be a priority at the level of the president. Um, and it was during the first Trump administration.
▶ 1:22:45Um, I have every reason to believe that it will be during this administration as well. Thank you. Uh, I now recognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Schneider, for five minutes. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Patrick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate uh uh the chance for uh a second uh question. Uh, Dr. Bham, I'll start with you.
▶ 1:23:09Um and specifically as it relates to uh dealing with uh the Houthis or any any other group uh does the president require a uh FTO a foreign terrorist organization or SG SDGT designation taking to take additional diplomatic or kinetic action against a terrorist group or individual spec suspected of terrorism or does or and does that FTO designation permit the United States to engage in milit military
▶ 1:23:39operations say against cartels in Mexico uh that otherwise could not without an FTO designation. The designations are not tied to authorizations for the use of military force and that's a different set of authorities. Uh the designations involve a set of legal penalties, financial penalties and other restrictions but not uh linked to the US military. Right. Um, let me expand on that and this is specific to the the uh CT bureau.
▶ 1:24:10Can you elaborate a little more on the role the bureau plays in countering illicit finance? My colleague Mr. Sherman talked about Hamas using uh cryptocurrency to uh finance some of its operations. Uh similar groups uh Hezbollah I know of the same. and how can Congress work to strengthen uh our efforts to to basically interdict the efforts of these groups to to finance their operations.
▶ 1:24:37So a lot of the lead is done by the Department of Treasury and also at uh different times the Department of Justice especially through the FBI. Um much of the Department of State's role is coordination role and especially dealing with um American allies and partners around the world and one problem the United States is having is it's simply outnumbered on the ground around the world.
▶ 1:25:02We've seen a diminishment of the US presence and the ability to coordinate not just in national capitals but at more local level has been greatly diminished. And so ensuring that there's robust funding that the programs are um broad and have authority to reach around different key countries is going to be vital and I urge the subcommittee to focus on that. Uh thank you. Let me expand on that a little bit uh because and ambassador you talked about this as well.
▶ 1:25:30One of our greatest strengths, United States greatest strengths in leading on a global stage has been the ability to convene to pull people together. Uh whether it's at the secretary level or even in in lower ranks to be having those conversations. Um as this administration is beating up on allies on threatening with tariffs, uh taking actions that uh zigg one way today and zag another way tomorrow or even the same afternoon.
▶ 1:25:57Is that affecting our ability to convene to have credibility with our allies? Because as you said, Dr. Bman, we aren't in every place. We can't do it alone. We need to help. We need the help of our allies. What's been frustrating for me is that our criticism has at times involve allies and partners that have been with us in every war, for example, such as Australia.
▶ 1:26:25And there are many countries we rely on heavily for counterterrorism and for other foreign policy needs. And to me, undercutting them, uh, criticizing them about their domestic politics, um, makes them more hostile to the United States, less willing to work with us, and more likely to look for alternatives. So, I worry that our rhetoric and at times our foreign policy actions are driving key allies and partners away.
▶ 1:26:50Uh, Ambassador cells, how important is is it for us to have that credibility for you in the work you were doing uh in the bureau to be able to speak onetoone with your counterparts with in other countries uh in our allies and have them know that a you have the authority to speak that you have credibility when you speak and that the priorities that we focus on uh today are going to be consistent across time.
▶ 1:27:16I think it's very important and you know um Congressman your the premise of your question is exactly right. Allies matter. We need allies as force multipliers whether we're fighting terrorists or whether we're trying to prevent um a Russian invasion of of NATO territory in Europe. Um alliances matter and America um builds alliances in ways that our rivals can't. Like no nobody wants to be China's peer. China doesn't want peers. It wants vassels. It wants satropies. So the American approach is very different and it's very effective.
▶ 1:27:46But for alliances to be effective um we need our allies to carry their share of the burden. And so I think um when when when you hear NATO secretaries general thanking President Trump for encouraging um encouraging is a diplomatic word encouraging our NATO allies to do more to meet our collective self-defense obligations and and suggesting that wouldn't have happened had it not been for a sometimes sharp elbowed diplomatic approach. Um I think that also enters into the analysis too.
▶ 1:28:15I I think certainly friends can be firm. We need to be with our allies shoulder-to-shoulder. There's not one in front, one in back, but that shoulder-shoulder relationship requires, I believe, a mutual respect and a vision of a common interest in the world. I yield back. Gentleman's time has expired. Thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to these in writing.
▶ 1:28:44Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have 5 days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record subject to the length limitations. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.