▶ 0:00:00It's for the record, and we are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic, starting with the Honorable Robert Destro, the former Assistant Secretary for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor at the Department of State. Welcome, sir. Wonderful to hear your statements. Madam Chairman, Patrick Kirk, Vice President of Strategy, Innovation, and Impact of the International Republican Institute. And finally, the Honorable Tom Malinowski, former member of Congress.
▶ 0:00:29I remember serving with you the first term, and former Assistant Secretary for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor at the Department of State. Now, this committee recognizes the importance of the issue before us, and it's grateful to have you here to speak with us today. Your full statements will be made part of the record, and I'll ask you to keep it to 5 minutes in order to allow time for other members' questions. And now, I recognize Mr. Destro for his opening statement. Welcome once again, sir.
▶ 0:00:58Thank you, Madam Chairman, and Ranking Member Castro, thank you for your comments. And I'm going to try and keep it brief, but one of the uh one of the things I think we should see here, and and I'm really happy that you have Tom Malinowski and Patrick Kirk here, because this is what you're looking at, I think, is a great working group. You know, that what we need to do, it's not a question of whether we're committed to human rights. We wouldn't be here unless we were.
▶ 0:01:26You know, what we're concerned about here is we have now, we have, I think, a opportunity to look at the organization of State. Secretary Rubio's given you the the the proposed, you know, reorganization. Lots of questions about that in my mind, Uh and and I particularly have the same concerns as you do, Mr. Castro, about, you know, giving it all to the regionals. That's I'm not so sure about that.
▶ 0:01:57You know, but the but what we need to be looking at is we have an opportunity here for Congress and the president to be working together to optimize it. Because the country is not made of We don't We can't afford to We should be spending on human rights. I completely agree with that.
▶ 0:02:18You know, but whatever the degrees disagreements we might have, you know, we need to be focusing on the outcomes of our programs. I mean, and that's something we just don't do. So, what I would begin with basically is inviting my colleagues here and and offering our services to the staff if I can, you know, to say let's sit down around a table and start talking about some of the hard questions.
▶ 0:02:45And so, one of the hardest questions is that I think we often need to put our areas of disagreement out on the table. And the first one is even the title of the hearing. It's not freedom versus woke. My friends who would proudly describe themselves as woke see themselves as just as committed to freedom as I do. In fact, my son coached at a university that that had its woke rating right on its website.
▶ 0:03:15You know, so it is a So, I see the issues we have as one of If our goal is to spread freedom and foster inclusiveness, sovereignty, and interdependence, because that's really what we're talking about is the interdependence of our people and the people of these who live under repressive regimes or who live in pretty good places. We must look at how the State Department actually operates.
▶ 0:03:43Now, spreading freedom is a laudable You know, but the hard questions is how has the State Department actually been? What are the outcomes? You might want to start with asking the people of Libya. Where our regime change operations and democracy building has left them with slave markets. You know, you can ask the people of Guatemala or Venezuela or Cuba.
▶ 0:04:10You know, how many how many years have we been working on Cuba and we don't seem to be making much progress. There's a lot of money been spent on that. What's our return on investment? I would argue not very much. So, whatever we're doing it's not So, I've seen with my own eyes you know, the how other organizations, it's not just state, it's not just USAID, it's all of it including the Millennium Challenge Corporation.
▶ 0:04:41You know, I just got a text this morning from a friend in Belize. And I've been working with the Belizeans now for several years in a really they're really innovative, wonderful people's constitutional commission reform process.
▶ 0:04:56Our enemy our embassy has not been You'd think they would be helpful, but and and during the conversation within that commission, one of the huge issues for the people of Belize and they've had town meetings all over the is control of a parallel control of Just this week one of our government-funded NGOs came in and basically offered a school money to buy control of their education
▶ 0:05:26program. Exactly at odds with the the proposition that we're arguing here. So, what I would suggest to you is that the the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says everybody has a right to participate in their government. The question around this table ought to be how do we make that happen?
▶ 0:05:46We know where it's not happening, we know where it is happening, and and I can tell you having been the Assistant Secretary like Tom Melia Nowsky has, when you direct money flows, that's where the policy actually hits the road. And and I'm going to leave it at that and and look forward to your questions. You have changed my whole script. So, I'm going to ask different questions when I get back to you.
▶ 0:06:16Okay. But, thank you very much for that Thank you. opening statement. And now I thank thank you, Mr. Destro, and I recognize Dr. Kirk for his opening statement. Welcome, sir. Thank you. Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member De and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me here to testify on the reauthorization of the Department of State, including programs through DRL and assistance related to democracy.
▶ 0:06:41I'll be summarizing my full written statement and would like to begin by applauding the full committee, notably Chairman Mast, and this subcommittee for the rigorous oversight and review of foreign assistance. Your leadership has enhanced accountability and ensured that programs pointed externally remain on point and continue to be an effective soft diplomacy tool, one that is aligned with diplomatic strategy and complements military strength, economic investment, and humanitarian aid.
▶ 0:07:09Democracy programs I'm here to testify, when executed cost-effectively, strengthen American security and They foster democratic societies abroad that align with US values, reject terrorism, and resist authoritarian influence from adversaries like China, Russia, Iran, and Cuba. These programs, in a very cost-effective way, reduce conflict, mitigate migration pressures, and promote transparent markets that drive US trade and investment, all of which benefits American families here at home.
▶ 0:07:39Three decades ago, US democracy assistance, including by the National Endowment of Democracy, transformed former Soviet bloc nations. We supported free elections, revitalized parliaments, and guided transitions from single-party rule to multi-party systems. Most of these countries became strong US allies. Poland, Lithuania, and Romania have emerged today as partners countering terrorism and Poland alone did 24 billion in trade with the US last year.
▶ 0:08:09Now, if asked whether supporting Poland in the early '90s was worth US taxpayer investment, my answer would be yes. Now, of course, not every country receiving democracy support becomes a Poland. Just as not every US military, economic, or sanctions effort succeeds. However, keeping effective tools in our arsenal is a prudent way to protect American interests in today's volatile world. In 2025, supporting democracy abroad is increasingly complex.
▶ 0:08:38Authoritarian regimes fuel drug trafficking, attack allies, and launch cyber attacks. Others, like Venezuela, drive migration to US borders. And theocratic regimes, like Iran, destabilize regions, pulling the US and our soldiers into costly The PRC, in particular, poses unique It's cyber espionage, intellectual property theft, economic coercion, and influence operations all threaten US But democracy programs directly counter these actions
▶ 0:09:08by promoting transparent governance and freedoms, as well as complementing efforts like those from the DFC. Now, Chairman Mast has quite ably exposed the failures of State Department democracy programs from funding drag shows in Ecuador to atheism promotion in But as we chart a path forward, I think we need to be intellectually honest and recognize that there have been many more programs which have not been critically flawed and that do benefit the United These include
▶ 0:09:38amongst others ensuring peaceful electoral processes in Kenya and the Dominican Republic, helping Mongolia, a strategic country situated between China and Russia for the last 20 years to become a successful democracy, and supporting East Timor as it worked through independence and internal conflict 25 years ago. Looking ahead, countering PRC influence is indeed a priority and requires a multifaceted strategy.
▶ 0:10:02While military readiness and capitalization are necessary and large-scale tools, democracy programs, I would affirm, are modest, cost-effective complements. Just a few examples, in Taiwan, State Department funding has helped expose PRC election meddling. In Sri Lanka, programs elevate public scrutiny of Chinese port deals.
▶ 0:10:22IRI's upcoming work in Ecuador, sponsored by the NED, will help local organizations and media analyze the harmful effects of predatory PRC investments like the Coca-Cola Sinclair Dam, like I know you, Madam Chairman, are tracking quite Now, failing to reauthorize the State Department's democracy components, including DRL, the Democracy Fund, and ESF, risks ceding ground to adversaries who exploit democratic weaknesses and our interests.
▶ 0:10:50Sunsetting NED would also be detrimental. To ensure effectiveness, I would urge reauthorization with five considerations amongst others. First, regular audits, clear metrics, and public disclosure while balancing safety for partners in autocratic states. Second, consider using AI to analyze democratic growth data and security tie-ins for better outcomes and evaluation. Third, design programs that must first, before they're funded, articulate how they enhance US security and prosperity.
▶ 0:11:19Fourth, refocus funding back to core democracy work, free elections, political party strengthening, civilian scrutiny of government amongst others. Fifth and finally, question the point of {quote} localization. Accomplishing things is what we want to do on behalf of the American people, not to say we put X percentage of funding into the hands of locals like the goal of the last administration. Helping countries become democratic enhances US security and economic opportunities.
▶ 0:11:46I urge you to wisely evaluate the cost of eliminating this vital tool when you're reauthorizing the State Department and democracy programming. I welcome your questions. Thank you, Dr. Kirk, for your statement. I'm looking forward to ask you a few questions. So, now I recognize Mr. Malinowski for his opening statement. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Chairwoman.
▶ 0:12:15I well remember the work you and I did together on these issues. Representative Castro, it's great to be One of the few things that Democrats and Republicans have long agreed on is that America should be a force for freedom and for human rights in the world.
▶ 0:12:33So, when freedom-loving people tore down the Berlin Wall, when a young man in China stopped a column of tanks in Tiananmen Square, when young women in Iran and Afghanistan said they wanted to be treated like human beings, not as property, when people in Venezuela rose up to demand free elections, we might have debated how to respond, but there was never any question amongst us in this room on about what side America was supposed to be on.
▶ 0:13:04For this reason, Congress has for decades passed law after law to make human rights a priority in American foreign policy. Aid restrictions, sanctions, broadcasting to closed societies, the annual human rights reports, creating the National Endowment for Democracy. And it was Congress that created the Democracy and Human Rights Bureau at the State Department so that there would be an independent voice in that department for strong human rights policies. Why was this vital?
▶ 0:13:32Because the natural tendency of diplomats is to avoid friction on sensitive issues. So, having a DRL bureau ensures that when there's tension between defending liberty and some other US national interest, the Secretary of State at the very least will hear competing views. Now, I understand the committee is interested in how we can improve and rationalize the system. Chairwoman, you said we need to go back to basics. The problem is the administration is eliminating the basics right now.
▶ 0:14:02How do we know that? Well, we've seen the department submit a sworn statement in court promising to end all grants for democracy and civic society around the world. Not some, but all. And they derisively referred to those grants as regime change promotion. Language that's straight from the Chinese and Russian propaganda playbook.
▶ 0:14:24Key organizations implementing these programs like Freedom House and the National Endowment for Democracy, NDI, IRI, have been blacklisted and publicly Today, multiple state and AID programs backing activists in countries like China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela have been terminated despite strong congressional support. And Represent- Representative Castro, you're absolutely right.
▶ 0:14:50When the program is terminated, that's a message to those governments we don't care about those people anymore and it's open season on those people. This week, you all passed my dear friend Congressman Wilson's bill on democracy in Georgia. Every Republican on this subcommittee voted for it. So, I assume you all don't think that is a woke priority.
▶ 0:15:11The administration has terminated all democracy grants to And for those democracy programs that have survived, the president's skinny budget would looks like it would finish them off completely as you mentioned Representative Castro. So again, no more American support for people challenging authoritarian regimes from China to Iran to Cuba to North Korea.
▶ 0:15:33No more broadcasting to close societies through Radio Free Europe and Radio Free Asia, which would be a huge gift to Putin and Xi Jinping. Meanwhile, we're seeing virtually no public statements from the Secretary of State on human rights issues with I would say the bizarre and disturbing exception of constant advocacy for the rights of a neo-Nazi party in Germany.
▶ 0:15:56The Department is pairing back the annual human rights reports to the bare statutory minimum, which is a way of saying they don't want to do them at Now, Madam Chairwoman, one reason I find this so bewildering is that when I was Assistant Secretary for DRL, the no member of Congress was a stronger champion of our work than Senator Marco Had I proposed any of the things that his Department is now doing to retreat from that mission and to eviscerate
▶ 0:16:27DRL's to eviscerate DRL's reporting, aid, and policy functions, he would have demanded my resignation and rightly so. So again, I would say the issue of the moment is not how to fix DRL. You cannot reorganize the number zero. The question is, are we still going to be a country that defends human rights and freedom even when it's uncomfortable? Are we still a shining city on a hill or just a department store as the President recently said?
▶ 0:16:55So if you care about this cause, even if you have disagreements about how best to advance it, now is the time. Don't wait for the authorization bill. Now is the time to insist that the State Department stay in the fight. Even if some of our top officials don't believe in any of this, Congress can preserve the institutions and programs that you believe in. I'd be delighted to speak to you in more detail about how you can do that. Thank you very much. Yes, thanks to you, Mr.
▶ 0:17:25Malinowski, Congressman. And I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questioning. Um it's fascinating everything I hear from three of you. We all agree, I think, that we want to continue being the shining city on the hill, that we are the only game in town cuz the Russians and the Iranians and the Chinese are really not going to promote anything close to democracy or freedom. So, I'm going to go start with you, Mr. Duesterberg, and I think that your your statement was uh highly lightning.
▶ 0:17:53So, when you say that we got to ask ourselves hard questions, that the title of the hearing is not necessarily what we need to be looking at. Um we agreed that we want some uh return on our investment, that we want to promote democracy. That's what we're here for. And and it's a little bit uh disturbing to hear that we have not we spent so much and the return has been so little.
▶ 0:18:18So, just give me give me an example of in the last let's say in the last 4 years or in the last 10 years, what what have we done wrong? What did we do wrong in the last 4 years with Biden? I'm sure that there were some monies going to good programs, but you know, perception is reality.
▶ 0:18:38And when we hear that there's going to be $12 million for the Guatemalans, for the native Guatemalans to have a sex change operation, you know, that doesn't really sound really good. So, what did what what what did we do wrong in the last 4 years? And what did we do wrong in the last 10 years? Put it into perspective for us, please. Well, I if with with respect, I think that's a bit of the wrong question. I think the question is what are we doing right? is the right question.
▶ 0:19:08What are we doing right? And and right? Yeah, what are we doing right? Okay, okay and and you know Congressman Malinowski and I talked about this when I was in in office and and this question as the DRL Assistant Secretary, you have 1.5 billion tools at your disposal in the ESF and and human rights fund.
▶ 0:19:36You also have 40 billion dollars worth of of really committed professional people working with you on those projects. And so the question becomes where's the best where's the best place to put them? Now all of those places that you just talked about with the sex change operations, everything else, that's that's not the best way to put it. It doesn't really advance our foreign policy. Correct. So you agree that we need to change that vision. I do.
▶ 0:20:05Leave wokeness and go back to democracy. I think we need to we need to foster freedom, right? And and that's why I used Belize as the example. Here is a great small country who is they're trying to figure out should we keep the king, should we stay in the Caribbean Court of Justice, should we revise our constitution, you know, and where's our embassy? Right.
▶ 0:20:31Where's Millennium Challenge pushing that same agenda you just talked about? So this reorganization of the State Department that you just mentioned under Marco Rubio now, so if you were his advisor, what were the three things that you would tell him in order to have our return on investments to be really Well, I think the first thing I would do is make sure, and this is one of the things that I tried to do as Assistant Secretary, is to make sure that the Assistant Secretary who has statutory authority
▶ 0:21:02to maintain constant maintain constant oversight of that funding, both humanitarian and Oversight. Yeah, oversight, right? Number two. And and you don't we don't and and you know, and I know it's fair to say, well, what do you mean you don't? And the you know, I had to spend a million dollars to put together a database to pull it all together. So, oversight of where the money is going.
▶ 0:21:24That's Oversight of where the money's going, who's spending it, and it doesn't matter whether it's in state or HHS cuz there's human rights and humanitarian funding all over the government. And so, the first thing would be, let's figure out where the money's going. All right, so so are you telling me that we do not know as a government where the money is going? No, we don't. Well, that's we're only spending taxpayers' money, all right? So Right. And so, but that's your power of the purse.
▶ 0:21:51If you don't know, then you don't have any effective oversight. Congress, I'm sorry, or the State Department officials. I'm talking about this is a dual joint executive Congress thing. You have the power of the purse. And you have the right to see how the money's being spent, and you're not getting it. That's my point. And then that was that would be the most important advice you would give to the Secretary of State.
▶ 0:22:15Is make sure that there is at least one person, if not more, who has continuous oversight and can demand where to oversight of that money. And and and I can tell you stories I won't bother to burden the record now, but I basically faced absolute insubordination when I tried to get that.
▶ 0:22:37And and assistant secretaries really don't have the authority to to take personnel actions like that, you know, but the fact of the matter is that I was told I didn't have any right to see the money. Thank you. I don't want to overextend to my time. I I now recognize Ranking Member Castor for 5 minutes. Uh thank you.
▶ 0:23:01I know in your testimony just now, and I think in your written testimony, you you stated that you're often unaware of what programs the department funded or And you know, that suggests And Tom, you served in the same role on the Obama administration, I believe. And wanted to ask you, you know, is it accurate that as assistant secretary, you had to sign off on all the funding Of absolutely, yes. I I I find this very strange.
▶ 0:23:30I I signed off on every single grant program. I reviewed every single grant program. If I had questions, they were answered. If I had concerns, they were addressed. Um, Congress was briefed on every grant program at that point um, that it wanted to know about. It was briefed on grant programs it didn't want to know about. Um, that wasn't the issue. And and DRL, one of the one of the hallmarks of what makes it so good is that it actually has an office of people who are dedicated to grant management. These are very small grants going to small organizations often in developing countries.
▶ 0:24:00And so the oversight function of DRL is especially important and one reason it needs to be empowered and not dismantled as the Secretary of State is intending to do. Um, I understand you all have been briefed that the the people overseeing these grants are either going to be fired or moved into the regional bureaus, which I think former Assistant Secretary Destro and I agree would be a bad idea. Um, so there is oversight.
▶ 0:24:28DRL is key to it, and that's why it needs to be strengthened. Thank you. And by the way, there's not there will be nothing to oversee if everything is cut. So, we are kind of rearranging the deck chairs of the Titanic here unless we focus on the fact that everything is being eliminated. No, I mean, to your point, and that's why I said this is not reform, this is sabotage. This is a total dismantling of the infrastructure for diplomacy for the United States.
▶ 0:24:57But let me ask you, the administration's uh, budget proposes cutting all funding to the National Endowment for Democracy or NED, making claims about a lack of transparency and disinformation. Uh Dr. Kirk, are you aware of the claims made about the NED and uh did the administration reach out to the NED or its grantees to seek information before making these claims? Uh thank you, Ranking Member Castor, for the question. I appreciate it. The charges against the NED from OMB in the skinny budget were frankly news to me. I'm not here to defend the NED.
▶ 0:25:27I do know they responded with a fact sheet, which I have here. I'm happy to submit for the record. What I will say is that individuals making similar accusations never, at least knock on our door and say, "Hey, we have a concerns about X, Y, or Z Can we discuss it?" Often, the charges aren't backed up with any evidence. There's no follow-up. The NED are audited. They report to Congress and the USG frankly quite frequently. the bit about them not being transparent is just baffles me.
▶ 0:25:56And the administration's cuts to democracy and human rights programs was far-reaching and included significant cuts to the International Republican Institute's programs. Uh can you speak to how these cuts were made and did the administration seek information from you all specifically before making these decisions? And did you feel like it was a a thoughtful and deliberative process? So, what I'll say about the foreign aid review is we any administration has the right to do it. We supported it from day one.
▶ 0:26:23And certainly, there were some programs cut that in my view were not sufficiently linked to advancing US national security. That said, there were many that were cut that were in fact advancing US Tell me how it's not our interest to be supporting the people in Cuba, Iran, China, elsewhere.
▶ 0:26:43To your question, Ranking Member, about did the State Department reach out for information, the former F director of the State Department, whose name now escapes me, his office never came to us asking for that information. You know, we spent years uh talking about the threats of China both to the United States, to our allies, but also to their own people. Uh nations like Cuba. And I actually agree with you on Cuba, although I would say that we've for some time now pursued a strategy that failed a long time ago.
▶ 0:27:13Uh and we should have made the change uh sometime back. Uh but let me ask, does anybody agree that cutting the diplomacy budget by 85% 85% is actually going to make the United States safer, and stronger, and more secure around the world? Well, Mr. Castro, if I can respond, Please. I mean, there's nothing like a hanging to clarify the mind. I mean, the you know, that's a nego- I'm sure that's a negotiable figure.
▶ 0:27:44You know, and that's why say it ends up at 50%. Would you think it's good at 50%? I I can't answer that question. And the reason is it's what you're spending the money on. It seems to me when we talk about things like countering China, Well, but China's increasing its funding, right? It's not decreasing its funding. Of course, but it's the question is how do you counter China? And one of the ways you do that is by increasing the independence of the countries that you're working with. Some of that's going to be trade policy, some of it's going to be human rights funding.
▶ 0:28:14I've spent a lot of time working with peop- people in West Africa about how do we use trade funding to to do human rights. I mean, these are not incompatible. In fact, our our programs here in the United States, human rights in the workplace, is one of our most stellar human rights achievements in the last century. Right, but they cut all the labor rights programs.
▶ 0:28:38I mean, I think what you're describing is a situation also where the countries are not likely not likely could be possible, but aren't likely to become stronger and more independent on their own, they're more likely to rely on some other nation like China or Russia. Which is I think what's going to happen. Well, you know, again, I I don't disagree I don't think we disagree about the importance of it, but a good friend who is from a South Asian country well that will remain nameless has come here to study.
▶ 0:29:06Her secret service came to her and said, "You know, you're working for the CIA." And then she said, "Why are you telling me I shouldn't come?" To which they said, "No, no, no, no, we just want you to know where the money's coming from." That's the perception. If that's the perception, it's not a big surprise why a country like India enacts something like our Foreign Agents Registration Act. So, I mean, actions have consequences. It's the how Diplomacy is about how.
▶ 0:29:35It's not about I've gone over my time, so we'll have to continue the conversation another time. Thank you, Chairwoman. Now, I recognize uh the representative Sara Jacobs from the state of California. Thank you, Miss Chairwoman. Um and thank you all for testifying. Um look, I I'm glad that we all seem to agree that human rights and democracy are an important part of our national security and foreign policy.
▶ 0:29:59I know there are some on this committee who who maybe think they aren't like like our Chairman Mast, but I believe that it's actually in our national interest to prioritize and center human rights and good governance in our foreign policy because it's in our long-term interest to do so, right? Like let's take the African continent, the youngest population in the world, 70% of the population is under 30. These young people are the future.
▶ 0:30:23Do we want them to remember the US supporting their autocratic regimes or supporting populations who need protection and support to fight for a better future. Obviously, we can have that that policy but what we're talking about now is the grave mistake I think this administration is taking to sideline human rights, democracy, and governance at the State Department.
▶ 0:30:45And, Madam Chairwoman, I first of all don't believe any of the programs that you cited are actually DRL programs, but also, look, you can cherry-pick a random grant or a program here or there and frame them as something that's silly. That's fine, actually. I'm actually fine if you disagree with some of the programs that the Biden administration put in place. They were aligned with Biden's foreign policy priorities, which included supporting human rights, including LGBTQ+ rights.
▶ 0:31:13It is totally normal for a new administration to come in and decide that they have different priorities and to terminate those programs that they don't think align with their policy priorities. But, that's not what this administration has done. It has actually canceled nearly all human rights programs, including human rights programs that were working on fighting for freedom in China, in Venezuela, and Nigeria. And, it is gutting the expertise in the department around human rights. So, first, um, Dr.
▶ 0:31:41Cork, I I want to dig into a little bit more the impact of this administration's gutting of democracy programs. Approximately how many of your programs were terminated by this administration? At the the start of the administration, we had roughly from State and USAID 95 active awards, and all but a handful have been terminated.
▶ 0:32:03And, the administration has assured us that this review was being done in a systematic way, that they were focused on waste, fraud, and abuse, that they're just doing due diligence. Did any of those terminations include a rationale for why the program was canceled? Would you consider any of those programs I would not.
▶ 0:32:26Look, anyone implementing democracy and rights programs over the last 10 years could be accused of doing woke programming insofar as work plan or proposal had to include those words based on that administration's foreign policy. So, did IRI documents include those terms? Yes. Did we do any woke programming? Decidedly, Uh were there any allegations of waste, fraud, or abuse in any of your programs? Not that I'm aware of. Thank you.
▶ 0:32:56I think it's clear that this review was not thoughtful or thorough um and that it was never actually about waste, fraud, abuse, or uh efficiency. I also want to get to another thing my colleagues like to say. They like to say we shouldn't be doing programs that other governments don't want us to do um because that hurts our diplomacy. Um Dr. Quirk, a a concrete example, the US previously provided significant support to the Syrian civil society under the Assad regime. Would you agree there was bipartisan support for these programs?
▶ 0:33:28I support providing democracy assistance in closed societies because long-standing autocratic regimes, whether it's Cuba, Iran, are stable until they're not. And providing support in these countries is about maintaining a small amount of civic space and ensuring that there are leaders in place that have the skills to lead when that regime falls. I I think that's exactly right. So, clearly the Assad regime did not like what the US was funding, but it was in our interest to fund it anyways, and that's true in many, many of these countries.
▶ 0:33:59Um so, with my last minute um Manousos, um could you talk about why supporting civil society and promoting good governance in other countries is so critical to our strategic US foreign policy national security? Well, thank you. In addition to being obviously the right thing to do, um I I think the the most important argument for it is that this is our comparative advantage over adversaries like China.
▶ 0:34:29It's what makes America special. We're not just a bunch of people defending a piece of soil. We stand for something larger in the world that is attractive. That that people are inspired by all over the world. Why would we give that up? Mr. Destro compared what's happening maybe inadvertently to a hanging. Yes, that's true. We tied our own noose.
▶ 0:34:50We put our neck in it and we're about to hang ourselves even as China and all of our adversaries are increasing funding for their influence operations around the world. That would be catastrophic for US national interest. Thank you. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Jacobs. And now we recognize Representative Mike Lawler from the state of New York for 5 Thank you, Madam Chairs.
▶ 0:35:16Uh you may know I currently co-chair the Moldova Caucus and have uh since I joined Congress. Uh a place like Moldova really exemplifies how some good governance and anti-corruption assistance can actually go a long way. can you discuss some of the impactful programming that the US has supported in uh in the last decade? Ask any of you for to opine. You guys are there, right?
▶ 0:35:46I think I'm going to defer to Dr. Quirk on that one because I don't have the details on Moldova. What I can say broadly speaking, support we provide in countries like Moldova is to support the infrastructure of democracy, strong political parties, civil society, legislatures so that they can rule their own country and govern in a way that makes the country I I mean, one more specific example that that as you know, there was a extremely
▶ 0:36:16important election in Moldova um last year that Putin tried to undermine in every way that he could. Um that election was observed um as I recall by NDI and IRI observers on the ground all funded 100% by the US government. If there were an election in Moldova today of equal importance, we could not deploy a single person because all of that money is frozen. Mr.
▶ 0:36:44Quirk, to that end, can you share from your perspective how election monitoring is actually helpful and are there ways to make these trips and verifications more effective? Happy to.
▶ 0:36:58IRI along with our NDI colleagues have provided election observation services for hundreds of These efforts provide an independent from pre-election, election day, post-election to ensure that the processes are free, fair, transparent, absent of which ruling or opposition party might be inclined to conduct fraud.
▶ 0:37:22And moreover, following the election process, the reports indicate areas in which the country should improve their electoral processes, so it is even better the next time around. Transnational repression, you know, obviously when governments reach across borders to harass and silence dissidents, has become a significant human rights concern in recent years.
▶ 0:37:45Repressive regimes abuse Interpol red notices and use overseas law enforcement offices in an effort to control citizens living abroad. NGOs report that there have been over 1,000 cases in the last decade perpetuated by over 44 countries with the most common perpetrators being China, Russia, Turkey, and Egypt.
▶ 0:38:07What transnational activities by authoritarian governments are most concerning from a human rights perspective and how could the State Department respond to that? Happy to. can I can I address that? I mean, I'll give you a really good example. Overseas Chinese police stations. All right, and they exist here. We've had them in New York. That's what I mean. They have them They have them in Minneapolis, St. Paul.
▶ 0:38:33You know, so over when countries transcend their borders, and it's not just countries, I might add. Transnational organized criminal groups, like Boko Haram, you know, the the the various gangs that control the board our border. You know, those are all very concerning. And so, the question becomes, what's the best diplomatic response? You know, and then how do you back that up with some serious money? I mean, that is the It nobody's arguing here that we shouldn't do this.
▶ 0:39:03In fact, having helped run a statewide election in my home state of Ohio, I know exactly how elections get run. I know the machines, I know the counting, I know the all the the things. By the time you get to election observers, I think election observers are great. You know, but many boards of election in this country get nervous when we bring in observers. You know, that's our problem.
▶ 0:39:29You know, what we need to do is bring in election officials and watch how the election actually happens. You know, and that's that's not just observing. It's It's It's a long process over a couple of years. Mr. Malinowski. Um Uh yeah, so it's most disturbing when it happens on our soil. Obviously, it's the countries you mentioned. I would say Egypt, um Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi, um and a number of other countries.
▶ 0:39:55When I was in Congress, this was a priority, pushing the State Department to do more about this. Um one success we had was that they they started um uh including examples of transnational repression in the annual human rights reports on every country in the world. Those are important cuz it's the one time in the year when the the Department is forced to be honest about everybody, whether it's comfortable or not.
▶ 0:40:19And I'm I'm afraid the news we've gotten is that the administration has decided to take out from the annual human rights reports that section on transnational repression. So, I would encourage you to take that up with with them before that decision is final. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Lawler. Now, we give we recognize for 5 minutes Representative Jackson from Illinois. Thank you, Chairwoman. Thank you, Ranking Member.
▶ 0:40:47Um thank you, esteemed panelists. We are here today to discuss an American agenda for democracy and human rights. I believe we can all agree on the importance of freedom, democracy, and human rights as pillars of a stable and a just world. The Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor has historically championed these universal values.
▶ 0:41:10Its mission to bolster democratic institutions, confront democratic backsliding, promote accountability, uphold labor standards, and advance the rights of marginalized communities globally, reflects the best of who we are and what we aspire to be as a nation. A nation that cherishes democratic values, embraces diversity, and strives to promote peace. These are not woke values.
▶ 0:41:35It seems like one fool said woke is a bad word to have a sense of consciousness, and a lot of other people sitting on the vine have echoed it. And many people that are saying, "What is woke?" I'd like to know from you, Mr. Quirk, is there a definition that's been published on what is the definition of woke? I'm by no means an expert, nor do I desire to be on wokeism. I'm not aware any particular definition of woke. you.
▶ 0:42:05You don't know, so it's kind of what this administration is doing, Mr. Bill Gates, who's done a lot of great things in philanthropy, has called Elon Musk just this day, today, and um his doge companions geographically illiterate. They may have some level of intelligence, but they can be really foolhardy and unintelligent in so many other ways.
▶ 0:42:28Let us consider the global landscape at this time from the devastating conflicts in the Sudan to the ongoing war in Ukraine against Russian aggression, the heart-wrenching violence in Israel and Palestine, and the dire human rights that's happening off of our shores right here in Haiti. Um we talk about the struggle for democracy in the Myanmar, the escalating instability in places like the Democratic Republic of the and Sahel.
▶ 0:42:53Nearly every continent is touched by conflicts and democratic backsliding when we retreat. Uh this will be for you, Honorable Milos Vystrcil, at this very moment when the world is rife with instability that directly impacts Americans' national security interests, is it wise for us to diminish these very tools designed to address these challenges? Uh cer- certainly not.
▶ 0:43:17And you know, one thing that I heard a lot from President Trump during the campaign uh is that he wants fewer wars in the world. He doesn't want the United States fighting as many wars in the world. A budget that cuts the State Department by 83% um leaves us, and I'm a proponent of strong military spending.
▶ 0:43:37I voted for I would have voted for any increase to the military budget when I was here, but to the State Department by 83% means that when there's a crisis in the world, the only tool we have is a gun. The only tool we have is the one that President Trump claims he doesn't want to use, and that makes absolutely no sense to me. Thank you so much. Uh Mr. Destro, there's the comments of what this administration uses these terms, and then they run, and people don't seem to ask the second or the third question.
▶ 0:44:07This administration also talks about America being first. How are we being first? What are our interests in this What are our goals to become first in what? Well, thank you, Mr. Jackson. That's a really good question. And And I would say And I have to give credit to my wife on this one. That putting America first is exactly what the flight attendant tells you when you get on an airplane. Put your own face mask on first and then help the people around you.
▶ 0:44:37And And that's really I I think and I agree with my co-panelists that our obligation is to help all the people around us. You know, and why that's that's good for And so, when Mr. Castro mentioned earlier labor programs, I mean, I started out as a labor lawyer. I had no idea how much of my portfolio was dealing with human rights in the labor field, supply chains. You know, you men people have mentioned Democratic Republic of Congo.
▶ 0:45:06I mean, but how do you solve the problem of of kids being slaves in cobalt mines? I mean, that's not just a human rights program problem. We got to find American companies who will go in and run those mines and apply good, you know, good labor standards. I mean, so this question of how much do we spend? It's not just a question of how much, it's how do we How do we put it together? I mean, I'll give you an example.
▶ 0:45:35Well, my friend and colleague, former secretary, assistant secretary Dave Stilwell, who ran the East Asia Pacific Bureau, he and I were talking about how do you help countries that are under pressure from China to maintain their independence? And the And one of the one of the answers was you translate the master agreement that the Chinese make you sign, but it's in Chinese. You don't even know what you're agreeing to.
▶ 0:46:02That's not independence, that's not You know, but where does it fit? Where does the fund What's the pot out of which you take that money? Those are the practical problems that assistant secretaries have to solve every single day. And and it's not just me, it's it's my counterparts in labor, my counterparts in USTR. I mean, all this thing has to to be put together as a little symphony. And it's the secretary and the president who have to conduct it.
▶ 0:46:32And thank you so much for your participation. I thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I would encourage all of you to keep on doing the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And for those of you some inflammatory terms and try to make woken consciousness a bad word, push back on that ignorance with all your might. Thank you, Representative. I yield back. Thank you. of Illinois, thank you. Now, I recognize for 5 minutes the representative Titus from state of Nevada. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
▶ 0:47:01Uh and thank you to Mr. Jackson for bringing up about woke. I've got to just first take exception to the name of this hearing. We want to not promote woke values. I don't even know what that means, and I have never heard a very good definition from the other side.
▶ 0:47:18And if you look at democracy and spreading freedom, which is the other half of the title here, we we're talking about freedom of the press, programs that promote this, protecting uh reporters, or talking about helping women run for office, talking about helping legislators draft bills on anti-corruption. Is that woke? Does that qualify for woke? That sounds to me like we are spreading freedom and democracy. So, I I don't get where that title comes from.
▶ 0:47:46And when we're doing away with the programs that promote that, like IRI and NDI, uh we're not spreading democracy. Mr. Malinowski, it's nice to see you here as a former colleague to talk about these issues. You know, every time you strike one of these issues, look what we've done. Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Hong Kong, Tibet, Burma, all kind of democracy programs.
▶ 0:48:11And then the latest is now we're going to change Voice of America to what's this super right-wing One America News Network. That sounds pretty woke to me or pretty asleep. I don't know which it is. But anyway, I know the good work that IRI and NDI do. I'd ask you, Dr. Cork, I've seen it through my visit in countries with the House Democracy Partnership on the ground helping to build democracies. And that's what the partnership promotes.
▶ 0:48:40So, would you just talk about how the freeze has affected some specific work that you've been involved in? What are some of the specific programs that you have that do promote democracy that the other side is cheering for us eliminating? Thank you, Congressman, for the question. Uh I'm not here necessarily to talk about the programs that IRI has had canceled.
▶ 0:49:03What I will say is that yesterday we had at IRI foreign events three courageous opposition leaders, Maria Corina Machado from Venezuela, Svetlana Tsikhanouskaya from Belarus, and others. You don't need to hear it from me. Hear it from them. They quite forcefully said, "We need the US in this game.
▶ 0:49:22We don't need the US to be leaning back when the likes of China and Russia are leaning in." Well, I think that's absolutely true because they'll be only too willing to step into the breach if we're not present. And when you pull out all the people who are in the field working with villages, working with remote areas, working with new legislatures, what's left there? I mean, this is such a a source of soft power for us, as you were saying.
▶ 0:49:53It doesn't just help the person with this face mask on. It helps everybody around us. That I just find this astounding when I look at the cuts that are are being made. Mr. Malinowski, would you continue this conversation with me about what we're losing and talk about the State Department's reorganization and how that's going to impact the regional approach to things? Well, I think we're we're losing our heart and soul. That's the headline. Specifically, you asked about programs.
▶ 0:50:21It would take me hours, but you know, we're we're losing grants um to we we were talking about Cuba. There's a wonderful organization called Diario de Cu- de Cuba, which um has been exposing corruption by the the the Cuban regime for for years. Defunded.
▶ 0:50:42Um there is an organization called China Human Rights Monitor, which China Dissent Monitor, uh which is the main the best source of information in the world about local protests against the Chinese Communist Party. Even the Chinese people learn about protests in their own country through this. 100% defunded. Um all of the work we've been doing to try to help women and girls in Afghanistan, who we abandoned.
▶ 0:51:06Um but the State Department, USAID, DRL continued to help them through women's shelters, through emergency grants to get them out of the country. All of that has been defunded. And you mentioned the other side. I I I don't I know that Representative Salazar, Chairwoman Salazar, you don't want to defund those programs. I know that that that Representative Smith, who has been championing this work longer than any anybody in this room, does not want to defund these programs.
▶ 0:51:36And so very, very seriously, as a former I need to appeal to you guys um to stand up against this. Th- th- This is a president of your party. And if you do that successfully, I still expect and understand that there will be conservative priorities imposed on these programs cuz it's a Republican administration, and that's fine. I want them to survive.
▶ 0:52:02And they're not going to survive unless Republicans in the House and the Senate stand up and say they need to survive. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Titus. Just now, I recognize for 5 minutes Representative Chris Smith from the state of New Jersey. Thank you so very much, Chairwoman. And welcome to our distinguished panel. Thomas, great to see you again. And of course Bob Destro, who I've known for decades as well. Just and welcome to you, Dr. Quirk.
▶ 0:52:32I I just a couple of questions. I know you were speak- speaking about Assistant Secretary Destro about the DRC. I just had like my sixth hearing on it earlier on March 25th, that was just a few weeks ago. And we focused again on the issue of cobalt, the fact that I've been to to North Kivos, I've been to Goma.
▶ 0:52:54And we do know that unfortunately kids are are being used to mine in the artisanal mines, but also about 200 about 25 to 40,000 kids and about 200,000 adults are in forced labor. I have appealed repeatedly to the government to sever their ties with the Chinese Communist Party.
▶ 0:53:19We know that there are moneys flowing that are ubiquitous to help facilitate this terrible exploitation. And you know, wherever you come down on EV cars and the need for cobalt, make sure it's coming from a supply chain that is clean of this kind of horrific abuse. I do have a bill in HR 2310, which we're going to try to get past. Uh that would provide a rebuttable uh because it's all coming from China.
▶ 0:53:47It's all coming from Xinjiang where they process it uh process it there or in a good country where there's real ILO-type labor standards. Uh and as you indicated, you know, American mines uh you know, are more likely to have a much better uh track record. You testified at several of my hearings and I thank you for that. Um and so I just want to underscore the need uh to get these kinds of bills passed uh and out of the Senate.
▶ 0:54:15Last night, 406 to 1. Both sides of the aisle voting for it. Uh my Stop Forced Organ Harvesting Act passed again, passed 2 years ago, died in the Senate um and it is very serious. I mean, the sanctioning not just of Chinese officials, but also uh of anyone who is complicit in it. You know, whether it be the brokers of working out of New Jersey or New York or anywhere else to procure livers and any other thing. Go to Shanghai, get it, in 2 weeks you got the the liver.
▶ 0:54:45Uh it's coming from a a Uyghur or it's coming from a Falun Gong practitioner, as we know. And the numbers are staggering. The high number is 100,000 uh murders per year to get these. I had one doctor who did them. And you testified at that hearing Bob. Um I'll never forget it. And you said, you know, this is a human rights and also a trafficking issue almost without parallel. And we need this bill, I think, would stop a lot of it. It never stops it all. And it applies to the world.
▶ 0:55:12So, if you we got to make sure the TIP office remains strong and intact. Uh we're celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. I authored that law. It took 3 years to get that passed. There was all kinds of opposition to it. Um the assistant secretary at the time uh testified and they didn't want it uh at the Clinton administration. But thank God, at the end of the day he signed it. So, all well, that ends well.
▶ 0:55:38Uh and then we had problems implementing it through various administrations including Republican and Democratic to be faithful to stand with the victims. Uh don't be indifferent or enabling of the oppressor. So, that uh TIP office, um we got to make sure that any reorg uh protects the TIP office robustly. The Ambassador-at-Large, ditto for the religious freedom office, which was Frank Wolf's um 1998 law.
▶ 0:56:04Uh so, maybe if you want to speak to that because I I I think, you know, if we're not speaking out on human rights issues, who will? I mean, we do get some good good work from the UK and some of the other democracies, but we've got to be the leaders. So, Mr. Destro, and then Tom, if you want to speak to it. Well, let me let me start by saying, "Amen." I mean, what you just said is is exactly right. And if we want to take the, you know, let me give you the example, come back to the idea of the cobalt mines. Yes.
▶ 0:56:34I mean, one of the most fascinating meetings I had as Assistant Secretary was a group of people who represented the footwear and apparel industry. And basically, you had State Department, Justice, Labor, Customs and Border, everybody in the same room saying, "If we find slave labor goods in your supply chain, they're not coming in." Period.
▶ 0:57:01And by the way, if we find out that you know they're coming in, you're going to go to jail. That is effective foreign policy. I mean, and and it's the coordination piece that I think often gets missed in all of this. And and I have been called by people in Africa to say, "Will you help us find some American companies that'll that'll mine this stuff for us?" In DRC. That is not an easy task.
▶ 0:57:30You know, they don't even know who to go to. And so, part of it is you almost need on human rights, you almost need, I hate to put it this way, a human rights concierge. I mean, what's happening with organ harvesting, I had no idea how bad it was. And as you know, we actually found the first survivor of an actual organ harvesting, and the Chinese admitted it. You know, and there are organ brokers.
▶ 0:57:59I mean, so there's lots of work and lots of, I think, potential money to spend, but we just have to get our act together and do it effectively. If I could just add quickly, there are many potential positive components of the proposed reorg, and one mistake, given how critical the work of the TIP office is, would be moving it under PRM. It de-emphasizes the nature of the work.
▶ 0:58:22Yeah, they actually, if it's going to go anywhere, it should go under organized not under population, not under Thank you, Representative Smith. You're going to be able to have uh more time to ask other questions. We're going to go into a second round of questions, and I just have a couple for all of you. Let's talk about Venezuela. You've mentioned Venezuela, you've mentioned Mexico. Let's just go to Venezuela. Yesterday, five members of the Maria Corina Machado's team were rescued.
▶ 0:58:51They were able to escape the country in a special operation. So, the question is, and it's for three of you, what else do you think DRL could do in order to push for democracy in Venezuela? We have such a difficult situation. Maria Corina, in my understanding, is the new Simon Bolivar of this generation. She is in the country. Maduro signed the Biden accords, promising that he was going to leave if he lost the election. He was going to stay if he if he won it.
▶ 0:59:21We understand that she has produced the tallies that he lost by 70 points. What else can we do as a country to help the freedom forces and the democracy to go back to Venezuela? Start with right there. Um so a couple things. First of all, I saw that news. Um sounds great. I I applaud Secretary Rubio for um what I assume was uh a lot of work that he did behind the scenes to make that happen.
▶ 0:59:50But uh okay, we rescued five people from Venezuela and brought them to the United States and we're threatening to deport 300,000 people right back to the Maduro regime, right? mean, I'm so I'm sorry. I can't help raising that difficult issue, but we are And what's happening? But if we were as a country ways. to what do you think we should do? What are the forces we need to how much how what are the Number one, don't don't be making deals with dictators to to take back people who are their opponents.
▶ 1:00:20That's core. You cannot claim to be for democracy and human rights in a country if you're doing that. Number two, don't take away DRL's tools and funding. Because and and to be fair, not all of the Venezuela democracy programs have been frozen or terminated, but everything running through the NED, through Freedom House, um through that whole family has been terminated. That's absolutely crazy. And my understanding is cuz they just don't like Freedom House. Like, really? That that's that's your reason?
▶ 1:00:48have not been So, putting aside the ones who have been terminated or the ones that are still current, what else can we do as a country? We can resume the things that have been terminated. It shouldn't be unreasonable for me I mean, if look, if if I had done this when I was assistant secretary, if I had come to you, Chairwoman Salazar, and said I'm terminating half of our democracy programs in Venezuela, you wouldn't have said, "Well, besides You you would have been very cross with me and rightly so,
▶ 1:01:18right? And and I'm I'm saying you got to be angry about Um We were angry about the whole situation with Venezuela and the Biden administration did a a a gesture in trying to bring democracy back and look what Maduro did. work. No, I understand. It didn't work. Maduro laughed in our faces in the face of the United States and the government of the time. So the other witnesses, Mr. Kirk, Yes. any any ideas of what do you think this where else can we do? Thank you very much chairwoman for the question.
▶ 1:01:49It's really an important one. The NED, the State Department, we have an evidence-based set of tools, resources, and programs that we've used in countless other places to include Venezuela that are proven to bolster opposition movements. It all comes back to resource levels. If we have access to the funds to provide that type of support, you have staff at NED, IRI, NDI that are ready to go.
▶ 1:02:15And second, from a diplomatic standpoint, I think as a country being clear that we stand on the side of the oppressed and those pushing back on authoritarian aggression being consistent with those messages. Mr. Destro, your idea, if you were to be the one guiding the sword, the resources, where would you put them when it comes to democracy in Venezuela?
▶ 1:02:34One thing you can do, and I think that that it's it's uniquely within your power to do that, is to to beef up the foundations of evidence-based policy at you know, which basically should be requiring transparent evaluation of all these programs so we get this return on investment question. And that in right now it's a data it's a data integration model, but what we need to do is move it into a real evaluation model.
▶ 1:03:04The the second thing is as you look at the uh reauthorization of these these offices, you need to make sure that by statute you break down barriers among the agencies. Okay? Because if I had called over to HHS, they'd have said, "Who are you?" Click. You know, but if I I actually called across the hallway to INL, I mean, they would have said, "Who are you?" Click.
▶ 1:03:32I mean, so it the you know, it's in That's even though I as DRL had statutory authority to maintain oversight. So, it's it's the process, you know, that that I'm worried about. I think we can make the money work, you know, but it's how we spend it. You made it very clear that it is the process on how we structure these programs. And thank you.
▶ 1:03:59Now, I yield I yield back and I recognize the ranking member for 5 minutes. Thank you. Well, thank you, Chairwoman Meeks. Actually, to Tom's point, it was IRI and NDI that helped expose that the last minutes well on elections were not free and fair elections. Um and so, even though it's true Maduro was still in place, it was it was that work that helped expose the elections, I think as fraudulent, um and exposed them to his people. So, but I wanted to follow up on something you said, Mr. Destro.
▶ 1:04:29Uh you indicated that you disagree with the proposal to move foreign assistance programming responsibilities to the regional bureaus. Can you speak further on this and what challenges would such a change pose and how would it dilute the prioritization of human rights? I think that when you're dealing with Let me give you a real concrete example. The Rohingya, right? They live right on the boundary of East Asia and South Asia, right?
▶ 1:04:58The Who takes care of them? I mean, they're they're in the they're in orbit in both bureaus. And so, when the the focus of of the regional bureaus ought to be the management of bilateral relationships our country and other countries. But when it comes to human rights programs, humanitarian, that's actually much more of a focused thing.
▶ 1:05:25And and that's one of the reasons I don't want it to go into the regionals is because it's going to get lost there. And and so when you look at a question that Representative Smith and I have looked at a lot, which is the issue of all the genocide going on in Nigeria. Right?
▶ 1:05:44If I call over as assistant secretary to the intelligence community and I want to know who's buying the you know, who's buying the the Land Rovers that they're using to kill You know, what I'm going to get from from the State Department is oh, it's all climate change. Yeah, what I want to know is wait a minute, I need the financial intelligence and somebody's going to hang up on me.
▶ 1:06:11I could not get that in kind of information out of the intelligence community. And so, only you can break that down for us. You know, so so I have some very, you know, like I I really mean it when I say we have a little working group and say look at what are the concrete things that you, only you as Congress, can do. And then let the executive branch try to figure out how to do it. Thank you. Rep.
▶ 1:06:41Smith. Thank you very much, uh, Mr. Castro, ranking member. I um just uh Tom, I'd like to yield to you because I know you want to answer the original uh and then I'll put out another question as well, you might want to incorporate it. The idea of of the regional bureaus getting even more of a voice, I think is a very dangerous possibility and a very dangerous outcome for human rights.
▶ 1:07:04Uh I can't tell you how many times on the trafficking issue, no matter who's the at the White House, uh we've had individual ambassadors and the regional bureaus weigh in in such a way so that what the TIP Ambassador-at-Large and what the TIP office, it's large number of very, very you know, they they're policy experts. They they've gotten data calls from each one of the uh embassies. They've sight gone through it.
▶ 1:07:33And very often their narrative which would lead to a Tier 3 designation, uh doesn't match what the tier what the tier age was. And there have been numerous examples um where uh other issues intervene at the regional bureau level and Secretary of State level uh that then said that's no, we're not going to make you Tier 3 because of fill in the blank. Oman got a inflated grade because they were working on the uh the agreement with Iran.
▶ 1:08:02Uh we saw it with Malaysia cuz the TPP uh would not then apply to them if they were Tier 3. And they were Tier 3 absolutely. And others look at that and say, "Wait a minute, they they politicized this process." So, the those regional bureaus, they have a role to play, but they can't have an outsized role when it comes to human rights because human rights always is on page six uh unless you're the Assistant Secretary for Democracy, Labor, and Human Rights and your walking point every day of the week.
▶ 1:08:29So, I I I think we need to make sure that that and then the knowledge base is that much higher, too. Um you know, the the commitment. That's why you wanted that job, Tom. That's why you wanted that job, Bob. Uh because you you're committed to these human rights issues. So, um at our hearing that we had the other day, I asked a number of questions, and one of them was an ambassador. Uh and we talked about TIP.
▶ 1:08:51And he said, "I fought like hell to make sure uh my country was not it, but then we you know, we were because it does complicate the statecraft that they're involved with uh or the so they think. I think if we put human rights first, everything else will fall into line as you were saying, stand with the not the oppressor. So, if you could speak to that cuz I think that would be a very flawed outcome.
▶ 1:09:14We saw it with David Goldman, remember Tom when his son was abducted to to We got nowhere for you 5 years. You know, I got into it the final year cuz he wasn't my constituent. Then I went down there and I realized that it was on page five of the with regards to our our work with Lula in Brazil. And um you know, that that's just not good.
▶ 1:09:44So, maybe you could speak and Tommy you also wanted I Yeah, this this is the key point. It is the job of our regional assistant secretaries and our ambassadors first and foremost to manage the relationship with the foreign country. I'm not That's not a criticism. That that's just number one on their job description.
▶ 1:10:06and often, not always, that means they're going to be avoiding the most sensitive issues that automatically create friction with that government. That is why Congress created the Trafficking in Persons Ambassador.
▶ 1:10:23That's why Congress created the Assistant Secretary for DRL to ensure that when there is a dispute, when there's a conflict between competing interests, the Secretary of State and the President are going to hear from two officials of equivalent rank and stature, both of whom are confirmed by Congress and accountable to you as well as to them. And then whatever decision is made is the decision that's made.
▶ 1:10:48If you put the staff, if you put the function within the regional bureaus, it's never going to get up to the President and the Secretary of State if the regional bureau doesn't want it to. and that would defeat the purpose of all the laws that you know, you've passed more of these laws probably than any member in this body. Um and all of them depend on the institution implementing the law being strong. So, and final point, don't wait for the authorization bill.
▶ 1:11:17You know how hard it is to pass those. I hope you do. But even if you do, it's going this this all going to be settled before you can pass a bill. This is a three-alarm fire right now and and the secret Secretary Rubio needs to hear from all of you before all of this stuff is settled. Thank you. Let me just uh Your point is well taken. I agree with it.
▶ 1:11:44Um I'll never forget and again, this isn't a partisan because we've had problems with both sides of the aisle on this at the White House. Um but when Boko Haram is I was on a killing spree. I went over, went to Jos, met with Archbishop Kaigama who was an amazing man. Met with the Imam who was He said, "They're not us.
▶ 1:12:05Muslims are being killed, too." And they are and they continue to be killed as Um but Johnny Carson who was the Assistant Secretary, so the Regional Bureau for Africa, very good man, but I asked him repeatedly to designate Boko Boko Haram as an FTO, foreign terrorist organization, and he wouldn't do it. Oh, they wouldn't do it. The administration. They kept saying that you know, they're just trying to embarrass Goodluck Jonathan. And I said, There's a whole 'nother agenda here.
▶ 1:12:33Uh and the Chibok girls was just one very terrible, you know, manifestation of that, but it was happening all the time to boys as well where they'd kill them as well as other people. Um on the day when he left and there was a new Assistant Secretary, on the day I was marking up a bill, it was sent to the Congress, so we couldn't do more than that, but it would have said, "Please designate, find out where they're getting their weapons and their money." On that day, state, 3 years after we started the effort,
▶ 1:13:03um which was stymied, I believe, by the Regional Bureau. Um the FTO designation happened. And it was late, but it thankfully it happened, and I applauded them and thanked them profusely. But again, what you're saying, and it's true, you know, they the Nigerian government did not want it. They thought it was like a black mark, and they're saying the same thing about CPC now on on the religious freedom side. I said, "It is called country of particular concern. We're concerned for your people.
▶ 1:13:32That's why we're doing this." Uh Christian and Muslim, and there's more Christians dying in Nigeria. Another hearing on that just the other day, and met with 16 members of the House of Representatives from Abuja uh earlier this week. And I said, "You got to realize there's a two-step process. One is the designation Think of it as a mirror to help you, too, uh to to crack down on this this terrible abuse uh the Fulani and and the Boko Haram and ISIS West Africa and others." Um um and I think they got that, and and the part two is the sanctions.
▶ 1:14:01Uh there was an effort, you recall, Tom, a strong effort to help the Abuja government, the Goodluck Jonathan's government. There was a fusion center, all this good military So then everyone kept telling me, clearly many in the administration, "Well, um the Leahy amendment precludes us from helping them." So I had a hearing on it. I had the Under Secretary come and testify. She was excellent.
▶ 1:14:25She goes, "Half of the Nigerian military can be trained in counterinsurgency, at least, pursuant to the Leahy amendment." And then we had specific breakouts of units that could be trained tomorrow, and it never happened. And they were dying to try to get out there and stop this this cancer from spreading to a stage four, which it has become. Uh type of cancer. So uh again, the regional bureau, you know, I understand you want to make friends, but make friends with human rights as your lead.
▶ 1:14:54And that's why we have the bureaus like DRL. I can tell Bob wants to Well, you know, you're you know, the probably the most argument I would get from a regional bureau, I would also, and just for purposes of inclusion, the L bureau, is you can't do that. You can't do that. You know, you're going to embarrass the government. And my reaction is the job is to convince the government.
▶ 1:15:22You know, and you have to have every trick of the trade. Sometimes it's going to be economic, sometimes it's going to be sanctions, but then there's the old, you know, one of my good friends in Nigeria, I showed him a list of grants. He says, "Wow, that's amazing. None of it hits the ground." Right? This is a This is a big problem.
▶ 1:15:45I actually talked to people before I went to Abuja, uh, who were in Borno They were running peace-building programs, but it was too dangerous for them to go outside. And when I made the suggestion, "Well, maybe we ought to shut that one down and move it someplace else." "Oh, no, no, no, you can't do You say, "Well, wait a minute, if it's not working, if you can't if it's too dangerous to go outside, then maybe you ought to reprogram the money." So, you've got the politics of reprogramming money and all this,
▶ 1:16:15plus you have the inertia, the literal drag of the regional bureaus and the L You know, they basically say, "You can't do that." And I've had to remind the lawyers, "Your job as a lawyer is to advise me on how to get things done, not to tell me I can't do it." That we talk I think these are conversations for a normal time. There will be no money to reprogram. There will be no bureau to reorganize.
▶ 1:16:47There will be no strategy to rejigger if things continue in the direction that they're heading right now. If you guys can sometime somehow stop this train and save the TIP office and save the religious freedom process and save DRL and preserve the institutions that implement these programs and the funding that has gone to them, then we can have a conversation about how to improve it all.
▶ 1:17:14Um and and I'll I'll probably lose some of those arguments cuz I'm a Democrat and it's a Republican administration. That's okay. But right now, what we need all of you to do is to stop a train that that is that is going to run over this 50-60 year tradition of American support for human rights and democracy around the world. Um the rest is is Anybody else before we close? Thank you very much.
▶ 1:17:44I'd like to behalf of the chairwoman thank our very distinguished witnesses for their testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond in writing if you would. Pursuant to the committee rules, all members may have five days to submit statements, questions and extraneous materials for the record subject to the length limitations. Without objection, the committee does stand adjourned. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:18Thank you. Okay. See you. Good luck.