▶ 0:02:48test test.
▶ 0:16:33The subcommittee on water resources and environment will come to order. I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions. Without objection, so ordered.
▶ 0:16:58As a reminder, if members wish to insert a document into the record, please also email it to documents I now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes. I want to first thank the witnesses for joining us this morning to discuss EPA's Brownfields program.
▶ 0:17:22As we review the program last authorized in 2018, I'm looking forward to learning from our witnesses about their experiences with the program, suggestions for the program improvements, as well as the tangible impacts it's had on the ground. All of us here throughout our travels has seen abandoned warehouses, dilapidated gas stations or vacant factories. Often these blighted properties which are is eyes in our communities are considered brownfields.
▶ 0:17:51Brownfields are properties that are abandoned or understood under used due to concerns about environmental contamination. The EPA has estimated that there are more than 450,000 brownfield sites across the United States. Their redevelopment and reuse can help increase local tax bases, create jobs, and encourage additional development.
▶ 0:18:16According to EPA, since its inception, the program has made over 10,800 sites ready for productive reuse, leverage more than 40.4 billion in additional cleanup and redevelopment funding, and help to create or leverage more than 270,000 jobs.
▶ 0:18:37However, property owners and development developers are often hesitant to finance the redevelopment of these sites because of possible liability under CIRLA. Circla liability is no joke. Circla has extremely stringent liability standards that could result in a pro current property owner being held responsible for cleanup cost at a site even if there was no negligence on their part or if other parties had previously caused the contamination.
▶ 0:19:07This program provides common sense liability relief to folks who want to improve a degraded The EPA brownfields program helps community assess and evaluate contamination at these sites and provides funding to help clean up and promote their redevelopment. For example, in my district in Georgia, the program assisted the city of Greensboro in addressing contamination in an old cotton mill.
▶ 0:19:35As part of this project, approximately 2600 tons of contaminated soil were removed from the property and the mill was ultimately redeveloped and converted into a 71 unit apartment complex. Federal funding through the brownfields program helped attract other non-federal project funding for assessment, remediation, and redevelopment efforts. But we know that just throwing hard-earned taxpayer money at problems doesn't make them go away.
▶ 0:20:06That's why I also want to underscore the importance of programmatic efficiencies and regulatory relief when it comes to redevelopment and timely project completions. For far too long, the EPA has placed unattainable regulatory and bureaucratic burdens on hardworking Americans that cost them time and money.
▶ 0:20:27That's why I'm working with my colleagues here in Congress and with the Trump administration on efforts to reduce red tape and streamline the permitting processes. At the end of the day, these types of improvements will help important projects get done more efficiently, whether it's redeveloping brownfield sites or constructing an Army project that benefits all Americans. I now recognize ranking member Wilson for five minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:21:01Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for hosting today's discussion on how federal brownfields investments help to revitalize our communities. EPA's brownfields program has on most accounts been successful in redeveloping abandoned or underutilized properties throughout the nation.
▶ 0:21:26According to EPA, roughly one half of the US population lives within three miles of a brownfield site that receives EPA funding, which includes sites in rural, tribal, and economically disadvantaged communities.
▶ 0:21:45As of 2023, EPA Brownfields grants have prepared over 10,000 800 properties for productive use and leveraged 270,000 jobs and over 40.4 billion in private investment.
▶ 0:22:07I've heard questions on whether all communities have equally benefited from this critical redevelopment investment or whether this investment has actually benefited those who have had to suffer with legacy contamination for decades. But those questions do not undermine the fact that the program is making a difference in revitalizing neighborhoods.
▶ 0:22:32Many states and local governments such as my home state of Florida and Miami Dade County have been leaders in the implementation of the law.
▶ 0:22:46In its brief history as a state delegated brownfields program, Miami Dade County has successfully assessed and remediated 31 brownfield sites with an additional 74 sites under active review. I hope to learn more about these efforts from our witness, Mr. Goldstein. Welcome, Mr.
▶ 0:23:10goals team who worked on projects at contaminated sites in over 90 jurisdictions across the state of Florida. Continued success in Brownfield's redevelopment depends on continued federal partnerships with and funding for states, local governments, redevelopment interests, and community leaders.
▶ 0:23:36Yet this success is undermined by the chaos that the president and his Republican allies in Congress continue to create with their management of the government and the economy.
▶ 0:23:51This economic chaos created by the president and rubber stamped by Republicans in Congress continues to push up inflation and the cost of groceries and other commodities and push down consumer confidence. In just over 100 days, American families are paying more and getting less. And this trend continues.
▶ 0:24:18States have already testified that the president's disruption in water infrastructure financing was having an impact on local redevelopment projects, resulting in project delays, increased cost, and the potential abandonment of local projects.
▶ 0:24:37This uncertainty is equally felt within the brownfields community and made worse by the president's proposal to cut the environmental protection agency's investments by a minimum of 65%.
▶ 0:24:54This Republican economic chaos threatens the jobs of laborers, manufacturers, and brownfields redevelopers and threatens to decimate our national, regional, and economies. Our communities cannot withstand further setbacks caused by the Republicans efforts to drive our economy into the ground.
▶ 0:25:21We cannot allow the president and his allies to hurt American families and increase costs and public health risk. I stand with our communities who are trying to affordably meet their local needs and keep our families safe, healthy, and prosperous. I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you.
▶ 0:25:48I would now like to welcome our witnesses and thank you for being here today. Uh we have the honorable Terry Wilbur from Auego County is the asgo county clerk on behalf of the national association of counties. There I didn't butcher it. We also have Miss Lisa Shook, assistant chief of the environmental response and remediation division of the Ohio EPA. Mr.
▶ 0:26:14Lance Larson, analyst in environmental policy at the Congressional Research Service, and Mr. Michael Goldstein, managing partner at the Goldstein Environmental Firm, law firm. Uh, briefly, I'm going to take just a moment to explain our lighting system. Uh, as you know, there's three lights there. The green is when you begin to talk. Uh, the yellow will light up as it gets near the end of the time. And of course, if it turns red, then go ahead and please wrap up so that we don't have to bang the gavvel on you.
▶ 0:26:44But uh I uh I also ask unanimous consent that the witness's full statements be included in the record. Without objection, so ordered. I ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing. Without objection, so ordered.
▶ 0:27:09I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered. As your written testimony has been made part of the record, the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes. With that, uh, Mr. Wilbur, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
▶ 0:27:35Thank you, Chair Chair Collins, Riking Member Wilson, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity today. My name is Terry Wilbur, and I serve as the county clerk for Swiggle County, New York. Today, I'm here on behalf of the National Association of Counties, who represents all 3,69 counties, parishes, and burrows throughout the country, including all 62 in my home state of New York.
▶ 0:28:00Today's hearing is of great importance to counties as we are responsible for protecting the environment, ensuring public health, and strengthening the economic vitality of our communities. The EPA Brownfields program is a highly effective federal program that helps counties redevelop underutilized contaminated sites to reinvigorate communities and their economies as well.
▶ 0:28:25There are over 450,000 brownfield sites and 63% of counties have at least one brownfield site. However, many counties have more than one brownfield site, including my county, a Swiggo County, where we have 125 sites. As many of you know, a brownfield site is an abandoned or vacant property that has been exposed to hazardous substances or contaminants.
▶ 0:28:51Brownfield sites range from former industrial complexes to older public buildings and even smaller properties such as former gas stations. While the presence of brownfield sites can present land use challenges and negatively impact property values, redevelopment can spur economic growth and revitalize the environment. Sue County is a rural county located in upstate New York that borders Lake Ontario with a population of 118,000 residents.
▶ 0:29:19So county has received two brownfields assessment grants, one in 2004 and another in 2022. This funding has been used to identify the 125 brownfield sites that we have and conduct the environmental site assessments necessary for redevelopment at several sites. Some completed brownfield assessments and projects in asigle county include two housing developments on the asigle riverfront.
▶ 0:29:44The Steven door lofts and Harborview apartments that together created 108 housing units and five commercial leasing leasing spaces with a total investment of $30 million. We were also able to leverage brownfield assessment funding to receive grant funding from the state to restore the historic awig lighthouse which is now open for the public tours in the heart of our major city.
▶ 0:30:08The federal investment from the brownfields program is crucial for both urban and rural counties in a swiggo county. We would not have been able to complete this work without the brownfield fundings we received. To that end, counties have the following recommendations for the committee. Our first recommendation is to reauthorize the Brownfields program.
▶ 0:30:28Congress should reauthorize Brownfields program to ensure that this critical source of federal funding remains available to counties for brownfields assessments, cleanup, and redevelopment, as well as providing incentives for private investment in our communities. Our second recommendation is to increase funding levels for the Brownfield program. Congress should increase the overall authorization level for the Brownfields program to allow more counties to address brownfield sites.
▶ 0:30:53In many states, counties are severely constrained in our ability to both raise and collect tax revenues. However, counties must still deliver essential services to our residents and visitors. Despite these limitations, counties are very grateful for the additional funds provided by the infrastructure investment and jobs act for the brownfields program. However, there is still a clear need for increased funding as thousands of sites are still waiting to be redeveloped.
▶ 0:31:20Additionally, Niko recommends increasing the cleanup grant ceiling to 1 million and the flexibility to award up to 2 million due to complexity of the cleanup process and to allow communities to clean up more sites. Our third and final recommendation is to increase the administrative cap on Brownfield's program grants. Congress should allow counties to use a small portion of their brownfield funding to cover reasonable administrative costs.
▶ 0:31:45Many rural counties face difficulties in accessing uh federal funds as they have limited staff, expertise, and financial resources available to complete these complex grant applications or to comply with the burdensome reporting. In conclusion, counties recognize the brownfields programs as a vital component of the intergovernmental partnership to drive economic development, address environmental concerns, and protect public health.
▶ 0:32:11I would also like to thank the US Conference of Mayors and National League of Cities who've been great partners in our joint efforts to reauthorize the Brownfields program. Thank you for your attention to this critical issue and I urge your support for reauthorization of the Brownfields program and I want to thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 0:32:35Uh Miss Shook, you are recognized for five minutes for your Good morning, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to share Ohio's perspective on the reauthorization of US EPA's brownfield program. Across Ohio and the United States, thousands of former industrial and commercial sites sit idle, tainted by environmental contamination.
▶ 0:32:59These brownfields become urban bllights and contribute to economic decline, public health risks, and neighborhood stagnation. The brownfield program administered by US EPA offers a consistent and effective solution. The program facilitates the identification, assessment, cleanup, and reuse of these properties, revitalizing communities, and stimulating economic growth.
▶ 0:33:21State and tribal assistant grants are non-competitive grants authorized under section 128A of the comprehensive environmental response, compensation, and liability act as amended. These grants are the foundation of state's brownfields programs. US EPA allows states flexibility to design their brownfield programs to benefit each state's needs while also providing consistency by requiring that all grantees meet four elements. The first is a survey and inventory of brownfield sites.
▶ 0:33:51Second is oversight and enforcement authorities to ensure that cleanups are protective of human health and the environment. Third is mechanisms for meaningful public participation. And fourth is mechanisms for approval of cleanup plans and verification or certification that cleanup is complete.
▶ 0:34:07With these four elements, the 128A funds have a wide variety of uses, including providing funds to complete envir environmental assessments to properties to meet all appropriate inquiry or voluntary cleanup program requirements, phase 2 sampling, and asbestous and lead inspections. Last federal fiscal year, Ohio funded 20 assessments through our standard allocation and 63 through our supplemental allocation provided by the infrastructure investment and jobs act.
▶ 0:34:36The grant enables the state to incorporate local input into redevelopment planning, including infrastructure evaluations, site reuse assessments. This effort aims to help communities reinvent their lake and riverfronts, main streets, and industrial corridors, creating parks, housing, mixeduse development, and commercial centers to stimulate job creation, tourism, and tax revenues. This community-driven approach ensures that redevelopment serves the people most affected by these long neglected properties.
▶ 0:35:04For example, in Shadyside, Ohio, we are working with the community to develop a Brownfield vision plan that includes a brownfield inventory, market study, community outreach, survey of brownfield site, brownfields um site reuse renderings, and a resource roadmap of how to move forward with the selected projects. We recently completed a brownfield vision plan in Belair, Ohio, where we are now working on a reuse assessment to create viable reuse scenarios for their downtown corridor.
▶ 0:35:31Our program supports local officials in preparing grant applications for the competitive Brownfield grants by providing workshops to further build their capacity to apply for and hold federal grants. And for the last round of grant applications, we supported 14 communities in applying for their own brownfield grants. These workshops also educate local communities about many the many brownfield issues and incentives that are available at the state and federal level.
▶ 0:35:56We routinely meet with community officials and others to assist them in working through the assessment and cleanup of Brownfield properties and provide muchneeded grant-f funed technical support and recommendations. Last federal fiscal year, Ohio Brownfield staff met with 60 communities, gave 12 presentations on brownfield issues, and provided 18 communities with grant funded technical assistance. The grant also supports the state's voluntary cleanup programs, which provide the foundation for setting cleanup goals and implementing institutional controls.
▶ 0:36:26In Ohio, our voluntary cleanup program was created in 1994. We call it the voluntary action program. To date, the voluntary action program has achieved cleanup at 750 sites, allowing over 17,000 acres to be reused across Ohio. The grant allows us to fund long-term oversight activities to ensure these sites remain protective of human health and the environment.
▶ 0:36:48The infrastructure investment and jobs act provided an additional 50 million through a competitive communitywide assessment grant for states and tribes. In federal fiscal year 2022, Ohio was awarded nearly 2 million to conduct additional assessments. With these funds, Ohio's brownfield program has completed another 62 assessments within the award period for a total of 145 assessments over our three grants.
▶ 0:37:14Since 2023, Ohio's 128A funds and communitywide assessment grant have leveraged 54 million in additional state funded brownfield assessment and cleanup dollars. and prior evaluations by US EPA show that over $20 was leveraged for each dollar of EPA brownfield funds spent on assessment and cleanup activities.
▶ 0:37:34The brownfield program is a great example of how environmental cleanup and economic revitalization are not competing priorities but complimentary goals that can help build a stronger future for all Americans. Thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts today and I look forward to your questions. Thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. Larson for 5 minutes for your testimony. Thank you, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Lance Larson.
▶ 0:38:02I'm an analyst in environmental policy with the Congressional Research Service. Thank you for inviting me today to testify on behalf of CRS regarding the Federal Brownfields program. In serving Congress on a nonpartisan and objective basis, CRS takes no position on these issues. I have been asked by the subcommittee today to provide a broad overview of the federal brownfields program including a brief history of the program liability considerations and other policy matters for Congress.
▶ 0:38:28Enacted in 1980, the comprehensive environmental response compensation and liability act or circla otherwise known as the super fund law authorizes environmental cleanup and enforcement actions to respond to actual or threatened releases of hazardous substances, pollutants or contaminants into the environment. Under CIRLA, the US EPA in coordination with the states prioritizes the cleanup of contaminated sites on non-federal lands under the federal super fund program.
▶ 0:38:55In 1993, EPA established a pilot initiative under the super fund program to assist communities with the remediation of certain lower risk contaminated sites to encourage or facilitate economic redevelopment or reuse. EPA referred to these properties as brownfields to distinguish them from both high-risisk contaminated sites designated on the national priorities list under the super fund program and from other sites where federal response actions were taken to address emergency situations.
▶ 0:39:22In 2002, Congress amended CIRCA to authorize EPA to administer a dedicated brownfields program separately from the super fund program. In 2018, Congress a enacted the build act which amended circla to reauthorize the brownfields program. The Build Act extended the authorizations of appropriations through FY2023 among other statutory changes to the program.
▶ 0:39:44As it functions today, the federal brownfields program provides grant assistance to state, local, tribal governments, and nonprofit organizations for the assessment and cleanup of potentially contaminated sites. Circla defines eligible brownfield sites as real property the expansion redevelopment or reuse of which may be complicated by the presence or potential presence of a hazardous substance pollutant or contaminant.
▶ 0:40:07CIRLA generally excludes sites from Brownfield's grant eligibility that are addressed under the super fund program or under other related federal cleanup programs and authorities. Subject to the availability of appropriations, the federal brownfields program provides two types of grants. those that EPA awards on a competitive basis for assessment and cleanup of eligible brownfield sites and those that are awarded on a formula basis to assist states and tribes in carrying out their own cleanup programs. Congress funds these grants annually through the discretionary appropriations process.
▶ 0:40:38The Brownfields program statutory authorities do not have a sunset sunset date. However, uh authorization appropriations for the Brownfields programs grants expired at the end of FY2023 and Congress has continued to appropriate funding annually to implement the Brownfields program. Annual appropriations have been less than authorized amounts and have remained relatively constant in nominal terms since FY 2003.
▶ 0:41:02In addition to prior appropriations, the infrastructure investment and jobs act provided an additional total of 1.5 billion over a 5-year period through FY 2026. Circle provides a mechanism to compel potentially responsible parties to pay for the cleanup of hazardous Circle established financial liability for those parties which may include current or former owners and operators of a site generators and parties that arrange
▶ 0:41:32for the transport, disposal and treatment of hazardous substances and transporters of hazardous substances to a facility. These categories of parties are generally prohibited from obtaining a brownfield's grant. However, Congress amended CIRLA to provide certain liability exemptions designed in tandem to work with the Brownfields program.
▶ 0:41:55If Congress considers reauthorization in this session, as it hasn't done in the past, Congress may consider certain elements of this Brownfield's program, such as the duration of reauthorization, statutory caps on grant amounts, criteria for assessing grant applications, and past and future expected program outcomes. This concludes my prepared statement. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee today. I'd be happy to address any questions you may have.
▶ 0:42:26Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Goldstein for five minutes for your testimony. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member Wilson, and members of the committee. My name is Michael Goldstein. I'm the managing partner of the Goldstein Environmental Law Firm, a principal of Goldstein Kite Environmental, a past president of the Florida Brownfields Association, and past chair of the National Brownfield Coalition's Public Policy Committee.
▶ 0:42:48It is it is a distinct honor to participate in this hearing and share suggestions on how to build on what has been the most important, impactful, and results producing federal program in my 33 years of practice. While Congress and every state government in the nation, including the great state of Florida, have supported Brownfield's work since the mid1 1990s, the hundreds of thousands of brownfields across the country require additional federal resources.
▶ 0:43:15My remarks today are informed by over three decades of assisting local governments, developers, growers, manufacturers, schools, and capital providers navigate the risks of cleaning up and redeveloping contaminated land. I also invest in them personally and accordingly have a 360deree view of what aspects of the federal brownfields program have worked well and where opportunities remain to overcome persistent challenges. The private sector wants to do more, but we need more help from Congress.
▶ 0:43:44I would like to speak first to Florida's brownfield program which was an early leader nationally in encouraging environmental redevelopment. Florida's program was enacted on July 1, 1997 and in the ensuing 28 years has sparked the creation of 90,000 indirect and direct jobs and the investment of over 3.18 billion. Through February of this year, local governments have designated 613 brownfield areas totaling 290,000 acres.
▶ 0:44:12Over 530 voluntary cleanup agreements have been executed. Over 235 brownfield sites have been cleaned up. Florida has accomplished this outstanding result with a mix of economic incentives, including tax credits and tax refunds, a loan guarantee fund, liability protection at the state level, and a streamlined regulatory review process. It's with this model in mind that the following seven specific recommendations are made.
▶ 0:44:38First, as part of a forthcoming bipartisan tax bill, renew the federal brownfield tax incentive, which was passed in 1997 to allow parties who voluntarily investigate and remediate contaminated properties to deduct all cleanup costs on their federal income tax return in the year they spend money on cleanup. Second, create a Brownfield's loan guarantee program.
▶ 0:45:02This program would combine aspects of the Department of Energy loan guarantee program with a new markets tax credit program to leverage billions of private sector dollars for early stage bridge financing of redevelopment projects that are considered too risky for conventional lenders.
▶ 0:45:19Third, prioritize affordable housing built on brownfield sites by amending section 42 of the IRS code to increase the low-income housing tax credit to 12%, the stepped up basis to 150% and to create a new one-time LITC in the amount of 80% of the cost of land acquisition and demolition.
▶ 0:45:38Fourth, dramatically increase flexibility for EPA grant program users by eliminating the match requirement, expanding allowable expenses to include demolition and environmental insurance, and for the first time ever, making all such grants available to for-profit developers of affordable and workforce housing. That would be a gamecher. Fifth, increase the maximum grant awards to local governments and not for-profit applicants to expand the amount of work and magnitude of cleanup that each grant awardee can accomplish.
▶ 0:46:08Sixth, increase the circular 128 grants to state brownfields programs. Since inception of Florida's brownfield programs, Florida's brownfield program, the Department of Environmental Protection has been awarded $17.2 million in 1288 grant funds. The awarded monies have allowed D to conduct targeted assessment and remediation at over 116 of the highest priority sites.
▶ 0:46:32Speaking from personal experience as a 128A grant recipient, these grants are powerful, effective, and catalytic. In our situation, Goldstein Kite Environmental partnered with D to conduct assessment and remediation of chlorinated solvents at a former chemical storage and distribution site that impacted a public school.
▶ 0:46:51Our investment in this extensively contaminated site and D and EPA's co-investment with $400,000 and 128A grant funds is facilitating construction of 515 units of affordable housing and a 217 million capital expenditure in the Overtown neighborhood of Miami by one of the largest builders in the country. A final recommendation, POS is commonly referred to as the for as the forever chemical.
▶ 0:47:19It's really the everywhere chemical and it's having a monumental impact on Brownfield's development where the listing of POS as a circular hazardous substance raises the spectre of possible EPAled cleanups under the national contingency plan over decades at great expense. Congress should consider a statutory exemption to circla where a party has voluntarily entered into a brownfield cleanup agreement with the state agency to remediate PAS contamination under state law.
▶ 0:47:47The exemption would provide immunity from circla cost recovering contribution claims, a hold on NPL status, immunity from retro citizen suits, and express immunity from lenders. Thank you so much for this opportunity to present my comments. Thank you, and thank you all for providing your testimony. We will now turn to questions for the panel. I recognize myself for five minutes for Um, I kind of like to give you an idea of what I look at things, especially from a chairman's standpoint.
▶ 0:48:17And, uh, you know, in and and the way I look at it in November, the American people spoke loud and clear. First of all, they need to save taxpayer dollars. The second thing that we need to do up here, especially from a chairman standpoint, is make sure that the federal government is act is very productive and efficient. And if we can do that, then we will save taxpayer money. Um, you all had testimony and as you were giving your testimony, I started changing my questions as each one of you went through.
▶ 0:48:44So, some of this may be a little choppy, but uh I I want to make sure that uh whatever we do, if you think of it in and what do we what can we do to be more efficient? How do we save money? And in this case, when we make an investment, what's the return on the dollar for that investment? because a lot of this I look at as an investment instead of just a grant money. So, Mr. Larson, I think I think this may be best for you if it's not if somebody else wants to weigh in or not.
▶ 0:49:13The the JA 1.5 billion extra over five years over the normal allocation if I've got that right and if I'm wrong correct me um how was that doled out among the states? So, is that on a first come first serve basis? large states got this small states or how did that work? Um so thank you for the question.
▶ 0:49:36So um the IIGJ funding um was divided of that total 1.5 billion 1.2 billion was allocated for the section 104 grants 104k grants or the competitive grants. So those grants were administered uh in the same you know similar fashion as as in the similar criteria that EPA uses toward their their annual competitive grants.
▶ 0:49:58Um so that's the the grants that go to uh eligible applicants um through uh the the normal process or that the normal that money goes to the states. So that's the money that goes directly to the the applicants. Okay. So who actually who who actually provide primarily provides the funding? Is it state, fed? What? So there's the competitive grants which are appropriated to EPA and EPA administers that on a competitive basis.
▶ 0:50:27So there's a collection of eligible entities all over the country that um will put in various grant applications for those grants. And so EPA will look at all the grant applications that will come in and based upon the criteria that's in statute they have this this ranking prioritization um process and as part of that they'll administer those grants um to those eligible entities. Yeah.
▶ 0:50:50I'm I'm just trying to figure out if we doubled the money essentially over five years and then and I hear it consistent that it's not funded at at the the level and course of my opening statement I said just throwing money at a problem is is not going to solve the problem. We've always figured that out. There's usually something else in there. And uh Honorable Wilbur, just you said that uh I think it was you. Who is it that said burd burdensome reporting?
▶ 0:51:19Um didn't hear you. That that said that it was burdensome reporting was one of the problems. Yeah. So is that is that on the is that on the fed or the state level or the local? Where's that burdensome report? We had that for the brownfield assessment program that we had that came from the feds and uh what it is is we just have a small staff. I mean we have a small county with under a thousand employees and we're actually I would say probably one of the larger rural counties if you will. Yeah.
▶ 0:51:48Um and as you get smaller and smaller there's less staff to be able to put the time to devote to this. And to me I think that gets to the crux of the problem of a lot of the problems we hear up here especially with rural counties. A lot of my district is very rural. They don't have stacks of accountants and lawyers sitting around to apply for grants. They have to go out and pay for the grant, which cost them, I don't know, 30, 40% of the money, whatever they can get away with. And so, I've always been a bigger proponent of we just block grant money and get out of the way. And that's where I was getting.
▶ 0:52:18Is it a federal issue on what? Because a lot of times when the feds give out money, they got strings attached. A lot of times they're around your neck. So, you know, if if that's the case, then is there an issue with the feds getting in the way?
▶ 0:52:32Uh, if I may, um, I would say that I think we've proven it in a Swiggo County over the two rounds of grants that we've 900,000 out of those two particular parcels that I mentioned, that's a $30 million investment of basically wasteland on a environmental protected area, meaning it was on a river um, in our downtown area. Right. And I want to bring that up real quick.
▶ 0:52:57Um, so that that $30 million investment that the Fed that taxpayers made in, what was the return on the dollar tax tax- wise? Let me just correct that. That wasn't a 30 million taxpayer investment. That was a private investment. So we used the 900,000 to leverage the 30 million investment from private. Okay. What but there again? Okay. So the 900,000 what was the tax advantage? What what did it do to generate tax payer? Was it did y'all look at that?
▶ 0:53:26How much more taxes it generate? Obviously, and doing much of anything with this brown. I I don't have the exact figures on what those buildings are assessed at it right now, but we're definitely they're back on the tax roles. Those properties are generating thousands in tax revenue. Yeah. And that's the type that's the type stories I like to to hear is if we make an investment in something, how how long does it take for us to get our return? And what has our return been? because anytime we can generate more taxpayers out there, then it generates revenue to replace what we spent out. All right, I'm out of time. I yield back.
▶ 0:53:57Um, the chair now recognizes Miss Wilson for five minutes. Miss Shook, last Friday, the Environmental Council of the States wrote a letter to EPA Administrator Zeldon that I would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. into into the record without objection. So ordered.
▶ 0:54:23In this letter, the executive board of state environmental leaders expressed deep concern with the president's budget proposal to eliminate or drastically cut most categorical grant programs within the agency, including the Clean Water State Revolving Trust. The states warned that these cuts would hurt efforts to reinvest in our nation's infrastructure, damage our public and environmental health, and threaten our economy.
▶ 0:54:53While EPA's brownfield program was not specifically mentioned in the president's budget, it is conceivable that funding for this program is equally as targeted by the administration for reduction or elimination. Miss Shook and then Mr.
▶ 0:55:11Goldstein, what would be the consequences for the state of Ohio and the state of Florida if all EPA brownfield grants funding were eliminated? Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Congresswoman Wilson, for the question. the in many instances in most instances EPA brownfield EPA brownfield's funding is existential.
▶ 0:55:42Without that seed money thousands of environmental redevelopment and reuse projects all across the country would come to a grinding halt and those that are in the planning process wouldn't even get out of the gate.
▶ 0:55:56These are projects that help to accelerate remediation to quickly reduce uh public health risk that result in a tremendous amount of job creation, economic revitalization and additional tax revenues to local governments that can then provide more services and also increase redevelopment in the surrounding area.
▶ 0:56:21They turn engines of disinvestment into productive engines of investment. And without continued funding, even expanded funding through EPA, all of that work would come to a I'd agree with Mr. Goldstein. Uh it would negatively impact almost every community in Ohio.
▶ 0:56:45Um, our state funding supports a lot of our smallest and and most rural communities uh because they have the least capacity to hold their own grants. Whereas our larger communities uh use this as a a catalyst uh to get other uh federal funds, other state dollars. Ohio has a a robust uh cleanup program themselves to uh partner for matching dollars for those funds.
▶ 0:57:10they use federal funds and to um in incite uh additional private investment. Um it it is much easier. There's there's plenty of green space in Ohio uh for companies to come in and to keep those um investments in our communities where the infrastructure already exists and to preserve our farmland. Um it is nice to have a robust brownfield program to um keep that development in our uh more uh populated areas.
▶ 0:57:41Thank you. Thank you. Well, Mr. Goldstein, our home county, Miami date has highlighted the successes it has seen with the brownfields program. They talked about the efforts at thermal fisher and how the brownfield designation helped create new jobs. They also spoke about the Point Siana Industrial Center effort and how Brownfield pilot helped address remediation needs in the community.
▶ 0:58:10Can you discuss the importance of continued support for the Brownfields program and how this funding will help address Brownfield sites like the uh corner of Northwest 37th Avenue and Northwest 133rd Street in Miami Gardens? Yes, Ranking Member Wilson.
▶ 0:58:33the um that part of Miami date county has long been subject to disinvestment uh economic blight and unfortunately historically civil unrest related to the um lack of economic opportunity.
▶ 0:58:49A significant component of that is driven by the uh environmental uncertainty and risk associated with a long history of industrial activities like pesticide distribution plants that have left um a significant amount of soil and groundwater contamination.
▶ 0:59:09that um has um provided a tremendous disincentive to lenders and other investors to imagine what that area could be, which is surrounded by um working families who love their community and want an opportunity to raise their families there and have good jobs.
▶ 0:59:33with um EPA's investment and the continued oversight of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and the Miami Date County Department of Environmental Resources Management utilizing federal resources, there is an opportunity for developers to come in, create jobs, create affordable housing, and turn that part of the community into a a very vital portion of Miami Date County that generates a tremendous amount of economic activity. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:00:03Goldstein, and thank you, Mr. Chair, for the time. Yes, ma'am. Um, I'm sorry I wasn't I was want to I should have stopped in. If y'all get a chance, just please remember to cut your mic off that when we had that noise that crept in. Somebody there was two mics open. So, if you'll make sure it's off if you're not talking, we won't have that. Uh, the chair now recognizes the vice chair of the committee, Mr. Taylor from Ohio, for five minutes.
▶ 1:00:31Thank you, Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson for holding this hearing today and thank you to our witnesses to uh for being here to share their insight and for the sacrifices you made to be here. I want to especially welcome Miss Shook who's here to talk about how Ohio has succeeded in turning contaminated land into residential and economic growth. Toxic materials such as asbestous and lead and old build buildings can cause significant harm to those exposed over long periods of time.
▶ 1:00:58That is why the brownfield program exists to turn older toxic sites into productive and beneficial areas in the community. In southern Ohio, the main brownfield sites include schools, children's homes, and other public buildings. Should be obvious that small rural communities face massive challenges when addressing brownfield sites in their region, such as constrained local budgets, fewer people available to manage brownfield projects, and limited access to technical expertise.
▶ 1:01:25Miss Shook, can you elaborate on how the Ohio EPA has worked with rural communities to alleviate these Thank you. Um, the state's program works significantly with our smaller and more rural communities. As I said earlier, they have less capacity to hold their own grants to be comp and to be competitive in the 104k competitive rounds of grants.
▶ 1:01:52So we are often sort of the front door for them uh to the brownfield space. Uh they can use our funding for planning purposes as well as the initial assessments and we can work with them and and do work with them very closely to help prepare them to potentially apply for either another state grant or a federal grant or as they uh get ready.
▶ 1:02:15So, we've done everything from helping them develop their own brownfield inventories to doing phase one environmental assessments for them to helping set up community meetings and do community survey surveys on what they would like areas to look like after a brownfield redevelopment is completed. Um, so that's a variety of ways we work with them, but they are a primary customer of ours. Gotcha. Is there more that Congress could do to remove barriers that uh that that make that create these challenges for rural areas?
▶ 1:02:46Um yes. So the the competition process is it very competitive. It we've heard numbers around only about 30% of applicants get approved for their grants. So finding ways to um provide more funds to more communities would make it easier for them to hold.
▶ 1:03:07Uh our uh regional brownfield staff that manage those assessment grants do a very nice job of helping those communities follow all the regulations and reporting requirements. um as well as they they assist us um in making sure we're aware of any new requirements that we're we have to um uh meet for our three grants that we hold.
▶ 1:03:30So, um, we have a great working relationship with region 5 staff, um, that help us with that, but, you know, there's always more tools in the toolbox for small communities who don't have the staff to hold grants or or allowing states to hold uh, larger grants so that we can do more work for them and we bear the responsibility for the reporting requirements. Thank you.
▶ 1:03:53With Congress and President Trump vowing to reign in in government spending, it is important that Congress evaluates how we fund these existing programs. Mr. Goldstein, in your testimony, you highlighted how public private partnerships benefited local communities and cleaning up brownfield sites. Can you elaborate on the benefits of public private partnerships and how that speeds up brownfield sites being cleaned up? Absolutely.
▶ 1:04:16Many times, most times, local governments and local government entities own contaminated assets, old landfills, uh public utility facilities, wastewater treatment plants. They're sitting on these assets. Um they cost a tremendous amount of money to maintain and the funds aren't there to clean them up and repurpose them. And so what they do is they reach out to the private sector for a public private partnership opportunity.
▶ 1:04:40the private entities are um beneficiaries of the EPA grants that come in, but those dollars while important aren't always um directly available to the private center private sector entities and frequently they're not enough to complete the cleanup and put the site on a level playing field with green field sites.
▶ 1:05:04So what would be most important is to a expand the grant opportunities terms of the dollars that are available. That's number one. Number two, make them available directly to the private sector who are operating in areas that the government wants to see like public private partnerships like affordable housing. That's number two.
▶ 1:05:26And number three, utilize some of the other tools that Congress has available to it to um um increase the likelihood of success of public private partnerships like creating more liability exemption opportunities for example with respect to PIOS or providing this uh federal income tax deduction to private sector entities which results in more dollars that can go into the redevelopment side. Thank you and thank all of you for being here today.
▶ 1:05:56And chairman, I yield back. Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Larson, for five minutes. Mr. Chair, I'm good with no questions. Sir, I am good with no questions. Oh, okay. Move on to the next Democrat. The chair now recognizes the uh gentleoman from Ohio, Miss Sykes, for five minutes. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:06:25Chair, and thank you, ranking member, for yielding your time for me to ask questions. It is certainly Ohio week in uh transportation infrastructure committee, so good to see you, Miss Shook. Thank you for being here today. Uh and thank you to the the chair and ranking member for holding this hearing. Uh Ohio has long been a leader in industrialization for generations. And for many folks in my district, that's meant investment in our communities and good paying jobs. And my hometown, Akran, is known as or maybe formerly known as the rubber capital of the world.
▶ 1:06:54But unfortunately, it's also left our state and our in my district with far too many derelict and dangerous sites, especially in the absence of environmental regulations and industries uh have shifted over the years. Following some of these uh we've been fortunate to have the identification and support around brownfield sites uh in these and the properties damaged to the environment and dangerous for families and and clearly unsuitable for business which makes some of these uh properties uh unavailable for productive use.
▶ 1:07:22There are more than 4,200 brownfield properties across the state of Ohio and every single of our 88 counties have at least one brownfield property and my district is no exception. There are 110 properties that have been identified at Brownfield sites in Ohio's 13th district alone. Uh of these sites, uh one of them is the landmark building in Akran, Ohio. It's right downtown. Actually, our district office is almost directly across the street from it. Uh it was a significant part of our downtown skyline.
▶ 1:07:52uh previously the home to Akran savings and loan but this building has been abandoned but in 2011 uh the department of development received uh brownfield cleanup grants from the EPA and uh was able to leverage some fundings and now fast forward to 2025 it is a productive property Akran's new uh bari district development in home to apartment buildings uh restaurants and uh productive land use which is exactly what we want these programs to do.
▶ 1:08:21Uh, additionally, uh, Rolling Acres Mall, if you've ever seen, uh, mall wastelands, uh, Rolling Acres is one of those. It is now an Amazon distribution site. Again, another way in which you've been able to use brownfield development, uh, to encourage job growth and development and economic opportunity in our communities. Uh, Miss Shook, in your testimony, you talked about uh, you have identified and worked with just under a hundred uh, communities and brownfield sites across the state. I just mentioned that I have 110 in my district alone.
▶ 1:08:52So obviously that means that there is a lot of demand uh and not enough uh support around it. But the bipartisan infrastructure law did provide uh a much needed boost for uh remediating some of these sites. So if you could talk a little bit uh more about what this investment and increased investment could do across the state of Ohio specifically and how this can increase and encourage economic development and productive land use in our state. Thank you. Yes.
▶ 1:09:22The uh standard allocation that we were get pri uh getting prior to the uh investment um excuse me the IIJA act. Um we were able to complete about 20 assessments uh per year in addition to our planning activities and um the technical assistance and grant funded technical assistance we were providing throughout the the cleanup process.
▶ 1:09:48With the additional funding we received, we were able to go up to 145 assessments over that those grants. show that's a significant increase in an actual assessment and some cleanup work done in our communities and that prepared them to apply for full cleanup grants from both our state program and the federal Um we have both the staff and the contractors available to do more work.
▶ 1:10:16It's only a matter of of how many dollars we get per year. our standard allocation has been um dropping slightly every year as um more entities have been applying and it was it was a great benefit to the state. Um the state program I is very robust. There's about $125 million in state cleanup dollars awarded the last um four years I believe. Um and it's overs subscribed every year.
▶ 1:10:46So there's a significant need in the state and our program is small in comparison uh this state EPA brownfield program is small in comparison to our state developments brownfield program but we're there to help all the communities that need that extra assistance the ones that you know need to find a first step need the road map that helps them match dollar for dollar and that's where our program really shines is being kind of the
▶ 1:11:16matching dollars for for other programs. Well, thank you very much for that. And if I can help lift up some of the testimony I've heard from all of you. This is not just about the environment and cleaning up sites, which is very important, but this is about economic development, putting people to work, making sure that we're using our land productively, and giving people an opportunity uh throughout our country and particularly in Ohio's 13th and across the state. So, thank you very much for your testimony, and Mr. Chair, yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:45The chair now recognizes Mr. Knight for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To all the witnesses, thank you all for your testimony. Uh Mr. Larson, I want to start with you. Uh in regards to your experience and observations, what's the greatest impediment to having an efficient um I would say remediation program for some of these um environmentally sensitive sites in the brownfield program.
▶ 1:12:13Is it local um bureaucracy? Is it local permitting? Is it federal bureaucracy? Is it funding? Is it um I mean is if there's one thing you could point to, what would that be? So, regarding the the um cleanup duration or complexities at any given site is going to be highly dependent upon sight specific circumstances. So, I would say it's going to be very challenging to point to a single um factor.
▶ 1:12:42Um whereas there may be multiple factors including the ones that you you listed um you know from a even from like a technical or scientific standpoint many of these properties um the conditions may be unknown uh with respect to the environmental contamination that may or may not be present and so as this process proceeds of investigating the contamination investigating the site if it turns out to be you know uh contamination presents more of risk
▶ 1:13:13than was envisionually originally envisioned um that could present more complications with respect to both the cleanup and what could be suitable reuses for the site. So there's there's various factors even as the process proceeds that can complicate this. Right. I mean, one of the one of the concerns that I'm bringing to the table is from North Carolina, there's a $2 per ton uh municipal waste uh disposal fee that really is aimed at at cleaning up these um they're called pre-regulatory landfills.
▶ 1:13:42I don't know if you're familiar with that term, Mr. Goldstein, you're shaking your head, but basically it's it's a a period of time where landfills were utilized and anything went in there and uh many of them have been deemed hazardous. And the North Carolina Department of um of Environmental Quality monitors these landfills, but I think there's 700 of them. Uh but only one has been cleaned up or two have been cleaned up in the last 20 years roughly.
▶ 1:14:08And uh that's a trend that I've heard about throughout the country that cleaning these up, putting them back into the marketplace is a real problem. Mr. Goldstein, I would defer to you in terms of and if if there is a way that we can efficiently identify, manage and clean up these or cap them, remediate, however you want to phrase it, is there a model that you've seen at a local and state level that is efficient and provides the necessary certainty to move these quickly? Thank you, Representative Knott.
▶ 1:14:37That's a great question and I want to invoke a suggestion that the chairman made the the the the concept of rethinking reinvisioning the grant program to provide community block grants like commu like community like like community block grants to state governments so state governments can get the money to where it needs to go more quickly.
▶ 1:15:00If there's a single limiting factor that makes these projects um less efficient than they need to be, it's time and the time associated with waiting for the grant window to open and to prepare and submit a grant application on a competitive basis and then get the money. That time is too long. There's too much delay.
▶ 1:15:23If we were to have that money go to the states and have the state agencies um allocate those dollars to where they're needed um where they're where the greatest need is, those dollars would get to the communities uh more quickly and they would be spent more efficiently with less oversight and administrative bureaucracy. Is there a way to incentivize local and state government to move on these sites?
▶ 1:15:48Because for instance in North Carolina, a lot of county and state operators are the ones who polluted the sites. And so in some ways they're not incentivized to whether it's undertake cleanup costs or to remediate because that could expose them to further liability. But is there a way to really expedite this process using the federal leverage at hand? I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it it absolutely makes sense. We've done something like that in the state of Florida, which I know ranking member Wilson is aware of.
▶ 1:16:16In Florida recently, we passed a law that essentially gives grace to local government entities that may have um caused contamination to a site provided that they bring it into productive reuse um quickly and promptly and that they find a public private partnership opportunity to invest private sector dollars in the cleanup.
▶ 1:16:41that gives them as as I mentioned grace and a a a a runway without exposure to liability under the state's CIRLA analog. Do you think that's replicable federally? It absolutely could be replicable on the federal level.
▶ 1:16:59There could be a an exemption under circula for exposure to costs under for example um POS that arise out of POS contamination provided that the the local government finds a private sector party to invest in Thank you sir. Mr. Chairman I yield back. Thank you. The chair now recognizes uh Mr. Garindi for five Thank you Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:17:28uh this program is a very good one. Uh the recommendations that have been made are very helpful and useful and hopefully we will put forth a reauthorization this year. I think we've done it at least once in the past four years. Uh and perhaps we'll be successful this year on a reauthorization. the recommendations that have been made by the uh witnesses are all good and um so as we write this legislation um good for us.
▶ 1:17:58However, I have a problem. No, we have a problem. Uh, all of this runs through the EPA and the president put forth a budget proposal which I would hope our the Congress of the United States, Senate and House would thoroughly and completely reject. But nonetheless, his proposal is to reduce the EPA budget to its lowest level, which happened to be its first budget.
▶ 1:18:28Now, just how is that going to work? uh this committee has a very serious responsibility. This program and uh the cirlet program also are critically important uh to our communities to the health of the communities around and in some cases to the uh larger regional areas.
▶ 1:18:46Um, however, unless we have the courage, we have the courage to push back on what the administration is proposing, this is an interesting exercise and we'll undoubtedly write a good reauthorization bill and it will be of no consequence whatsoever. Now, I, you know, I wish all the committee members were here and when I talk to them individually, I'm going to say, "Yeah, it's nice. We'll do our work as we did it before.
▶ 1:19:16We have a uh and we'll use that and we'll update it given the suggestions of the witnesses. It'll be an interesting exercise of no purpose whatsoever if the administration has its way to gut the EPA. So, I would hope all of us would keep this in mind while we work through this. Good for us.
▶ 1:19:43However, unless we're willing to fight the fight to fund the EPA at a level that would allow these programs and others to proceed, I I guess we'll feel good about the work we've done, but it will have no consequence, no utility, and actually cause severe problems throughout the United States as we attempt to deal with this particular set of issues and dozens of others. So, the fight is not here.
▶ 1:20:13The fight is on the proposals being made by the administration to gut the EPA and to reduce its funding to a level that is equal to what it was on its very first existence. Now, I happen to support the brownfield programs. It's useful. Uh we have uh in the city of Valo a $600,000 EPA grant uh for Mayor Island.
▶ 1:20:40the first and oldest naval base on the west coast and you can kind of imagine the kind of contamination that's existed there over the last century and a half. Uh so that's useful and making progress. It also allows for the downtown waterfront. City of Pam San Pablo, another one, a railard that dates back to the 1800s.
▶ 1:21:03Yeah, there's a bit of a problem there, but the cleanup of that will uh allow the city to bring in housing uh into a historic area that has been well, all of you know this. We all have these 435 of us have problems and the brownfield program helps our districts.
▶ 1:21:21Um, so each of us ought to be not only working on uh reauthorization legislation and whatever changes are appropriate to uh improve it, but we're going to have to fight the big fight. Otherwise, yeah, bother? I'm going to let it go at that.
▶ 1:21:41Uh I thank the witnesses for their specific uh suggestions on how to improve the existing authorization which now expired two years and a half ago. Uh so we have work to do but I don't want this committee and each and every one of us to forget what is the principal battle at hand and that is in fact the existence of the EPA in a meaningful way. So with that I'm going to yield back Mr.
▶ 1:22:08chairman and I would hope to have your support in um helping all of us or making all of us aware of the problem that the administration is creating uh with its propos with its proposed budget cut for the EPA and work with all of us to restore the funding to an appropriate level so this program and others can proceed. With that, I yield back. The chair now recognizes Mr. Berles for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
▶ 1:22:37Goldstein, am I correct in saying you have over three decades of experience in helping local communities navigate the process of of these cleanups of brownfields? Yes, sir. And I feel every single one of those days. Um, given that experience, could you walk me through the process that a local, you know, county or community goes through when they're applying for assistance for a brownfield? Sure.
▶ 1:23:04Um the process typically starts with a developer or a notfor-profit who either working on their own or with a local government identifies a site that uh would make a wonderful redevelopment project for whatever their mandate is for whatever their constituents are telling them needs to be done. They'll conduct some due diligence.
▶ 1:23:28um that typically doesn't take a lot of money to have a consultant perform what's called a phase one environmental site assessment audit which is a non-invasive study of the history of the site and the regulatory stat status and more often than not whether you're in a rural area or or an urban area you'll identify a legacy of chemical contamination and all of the warning bells will go off and the costs will be identified related to cleanup related to third party
▶ 1:23:58liability related to uh the incremental um things that you have to do to safely build on a contaminated site. And and then people will take a a a beat and say, "Well, how are we going to pay for all of this?" And at that point, many projects simply expire because the risk is too high and the costs are are too uncertain.
▶ 1:24:20But in in other instances where they are aware of the Brownfields program, they um work with a local government or a notfor-profit forprofit entities are not eligible for Brownfield grants and they um get in the queue to receive EPA funding. Sometimes it's for assessment, sometimes it's for assessment and cleanup, sometimes it's for cleanup only.
▶ 1:24:46In many instances, those grants provide important seed money, but not enough to complete the job. Because more often than not, these problems, as mentioned by a number of your colleagues, are very complex. They're not problems that can be solved with a hundred or 200 or 300 or $400,000 in grant funding. Sometimes they take millions of dollars in grant funding. And and sometimes grant funding um all of the money in the world wouldn't solve the problem.
▶ 1:25:15There need to be more liability protection tools, more um regulatory tools to expedite cleanup etc. But from identification of an issue through award of grant and the money becoming available that window can take 9 to 12 to 18 months and many projects don't have that time available to them. Um regarding the nonprofits how is that relationship work?
▶ 1:25:42Do these are there just nonprofits that exist that are that this is their mission. They accept these grants. They work the process and then they kind of align with a business. Well, there are a variety of not not forprofits. Some are involved in in the arts. Some are involved in affordable or workforce housing. Some are involved in providing um uh um urban urban farming opportunities.
▶ 1:26:08It really scans the g spans the the gamut of of what not forprofits are interested in. And uh we've we've seen it all in in in in a Brownfield's context going back 1995. Many times they can't go it alone. They don't have enough money. So they partner with local governments and seek these grants. Thank you, Mr. Wilbur.
▶ 1:26:31Um this Congress is committed to this committee plans to consider um reauthorization of the Brownfields program. In the reauthorization, we will have the opportunity to consider whether the funds are given to the Brownfields program have achieved their intended purposes of the program. Um in your opinion, have the funds put towards this program achieved the intended purposes and the goals of the program? I believe that they have.
▶ 1:27:00Uh, taking what I've seen in my county alone, um, with the investment that was made, uh, we definitely have identified and assessed the brown fields that we know are there. And given the funds that we're spending money, we're we're stewards of taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:27:16Are there examples or there any opportunities where we can make sure that those dollars are used to their fullest extent to a are is there any opportunities that we can make it well, make it more efficient with the dollars we have. Well, I would say that the administrative um aspect of it, the burdensome of the of reporting and all of that has definitely been uh an added chore for most uh rural counties that have a small staff like the chair uh noted before.
▶ 1:27:44I mean, we have one county attorney to work on this and we have one chief accountant in the whole county. So, um the the the work is a lot and the staff is limited. So, uh, that administrative duties are definitely, uh, a little burdensome for us. Appreciate it. Thank you. I yield back. The chair now recognizes Miss Nordon for five minutes. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:28:11Uh, I strongly oppose the Trump administration's attack on the Environmental Protection Agency. The agency has suggested it will return to staffing levels from the 1980s and President Trump's fiscal year 2026 budget would cut the AY's budget by 55%.
▶ 1:28:35These cuts to staffing and funding levels are grave threats to human health and the environment. I support the Brownsfield's program. The program is a winwinwin. It helps protect the environment and human health and spurs environ uh economic development.
▶ 1:29:02Goldstein, how would reduction in funding for the Browns Fields program affect environmental justice efforts? Well, with without Brown in in Florida, they would go away completely because Florida doesn't have any funding for environmental justice directly. The Florida Brownfields Redevelopment Act mentions environmental justice, but there's never been a funding mechanism. Uh, I agree with you, Representative.
▶ 1:29:31The people at EPA are dedicated. They're hardworking. They're exceedingly efficient. Both in the Brownfields program and we haven't mentioned it, but the super fund redevelopment program. Brownfields and super fund redevelopment prey in the same pew. They are um both important objectives and both tremendous opportunities for economic revitalization, public health protection, and environmental justice.
▶ 1:29:57If we're going to take money out of the Brownfields program, all of these efforts are, as I mentioned earlier, are going to come to a grinding halt. But I do want to say this, Brownfields has always been bipartisan. It's received a lot of bipartisan love. The money, the money that gets allocated by Congress to Brownfields goes through EPA, but doesn't stay in EPA. It goes to the communities where that money is needed and where over the past 35 years, it's made all the difference in the world.
▶ 1:30:25If you look at the leveraging data published by EPA and I'm sure that Mr. Larson has looked at this as well, every dollar invested by Congress creates a return of on investment of $20 in private sector investment. I have actually seen that order of magnitude be 40 to 60 times.
▶ 1:30:42I mentioned a project in in uh ranking member Wilson's district where EPA um allocated $400,000 and 128 aid grant funding and the developer is putting in $217 million.
▶ 1:30:57But separate and apart from that, there are things that Congress can do that this commit subcommittee can do in terms of liability protection and process that will also make private capital more likely to go into brownfield sites even if the level of EPA even if the level of brownfield funding isn't what it has historically been until it can come back.
▶ 1:31:19create liability exemption for POS circular liability exemption for POS cleanups for example where the cleanup is being conducted at the state level increase the amount of lowincome housing tax credits available for affordable housing and pass the federal brownfield tax incentive as part of the tax bill. Thank you.
▶ 1:31:43Um, Miss Shook, uh, based on the success of the Browns Fields program in Ohio, how can cities best leverage partnerships among governments, the private sector, and communities to maximize the program's benefits? Many of our communities do just that.
▶ 1:32:06They uh work with both the state to get their um get initial assessments done leveraging the funding we have with our state brownfield program and then they go on to apply for their own uh grants themselves um relieving the burden of these cleanups. They they we have a robust land bank um program in Ohio.
▶ 1:32:29So, our counties take on a big lift in in getting these cleanup dollars and getting the cleanups done so that they can attract the businesses and the private development. Sometimes they're working in partnership um with private developers. Sometimes they're ahead of the game and are cleaning up these sites in advance of having a known end user. So, they have all the work done.
▶ 1:32:50they've done the environmental work and then they can, you know, uh, advertise and and bring in new jobs to their communities with all of the funds that they've leveraged over the years. Uh, finally, Mr.
▶ 1:33:03Larson, how would an extended reauthorization of the Brownsfield program improve its Well, you have um to the extent that that Congress would decide to uh reauthorize the program um you um you potentially you know you can revisit some of the the programmatic elements uh that uh was re you know that was uh amended in in prior reauthorizations.
▶ 1:33:31So, it gives Congress the opportunity to look at potentially revisiting or considering um certain uh legislative options um to amend the program to change or modify how it's it's currently operating um or if they want to uh change other aspects. Thank you. I yield back. The chair now recognizes Mr. Lafa Laua for five minutes. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:34:01appreciate the panelists today here. Thank you for weighing in on this. Uh um I wanted to go with um Mr. Wilbur. Um under the cirlet policy, the issue of strict liability, how much of a chilling effect does that have on uh future owners, people that might want to come in and uh make something out of one of these problem areas, one of these brown fields, and you know, for something that
▶ 1:34:31they didn't do in the past or heaven forbid that they bought something without knowledge of it and then all of a sudden left holding the bag. Talk a little bit about the uh what kind of chilling effect that to the the extent that the liability goes these days for the effort to develop and and and you know up the pace on a cleanup of an area.
▶ 1:34:57Well, to the extent of my experience with this program, I haven't really been into the liability end of this. I know Mr. Goldstein had a lot to uh say on that in the beginning. Um when we administer these grants programs that have been given to our uh county from the federal uh government, we go out and we identify and assess the properties. We we acknowledge that those are the brownfield sites.
▶ 1:35:22And then at that point in time, uh, if we're successful in getting a phase two grant and we're able to remediate, then it's, um, basically, uh, you know, they go through the assessment again and make sure that it's clear to be, um, put back on the market or be developed. What I'm what I'm getting at though is the overall the way the the strict liability is interpreted, is it is it too much of a chilling effect on people wanting to do work other than just leave it static?
▶ 1:35:46Is it or is there something that I guess let me ask should shouldn't something be done legislatively to uh make a stronger incentive and less of a negative on uh on taking on one of these projects, one of these areas. Well, it's definitely for development, you know. Yeah, it it's definitely a deterrence, I would say, for developers in our area.
▶ 1:36:08And I I honestly I don't know too much more other than as a person that would be looking to develop myself, I wouldn't want to be taking on some of the Can you think of any steps Congress should do to make it better? I couldn't hear that question, sir. Can you think of any steps Congress could do to make it better? Off the top of my head, I cannot, but I can uh talk to some of my people and submit after. Thank you. All right, Mr.
▶ 1:36:31Larson, how much success have we had on uh if you if you have these stats or an idea of uh recovering brownfields and other problem areas like that? You know, we've got them in Northern California where certain activities got went on the 60s and 70s and and such and there's a groundwater problem, but uh it's an idle field right now and and you hope the remed remediation is making it work out as far as cleaning the water, cleaning the land.
▶ 1:36:59uh how much success has we had with the various federal programs since it's really come become conscious in recovering many across the country. Yeah. So um you know regarding kind of the success or success metrics um as you've probably heard from a variety of different points today there's there's a variety of different um metrics that are commonly cited regarding both acreage um under the brownfields program that have being uh that have been recovered um or jobs created.
▶ 1:37:26So certainly in the brownfields program when they're talking about a success metric, it's something where um it has to do with you know recovered acres or you know completed sites. Can you can you site I'm not expecting to have an exact statistic but uh has there been many successful recoveries that these lands are now so going from useless to something regarding the the federal brownfields grants.
▶ 1:37:48Um, so the the 104K competitive grants to to my understanding, the most recent data that I was able to find for um, I believe it was somewhere around 12,000 um, properties that have been uh, or sites under that program specifically that were recovered for reuse. Um, and somewhere in the ballpark of 40,000 um, site assessments performed with those specific grant programs.
▶ 1:38:14Certainly the the state programs um may have different numbers or or different numbers for some of the sites that they've assessed. Um but that's just talking about the brownfields program and not other authorities like super fund or or other types of cleanups. Is uh as primarily the conversion from a useless brownfield site? Are they mostly going for industrial uses?
▶ 1:38:34Are we finding that it's successful to not necessarily put housing on that or obviously schools or hospitals or things, but are they primarily going into industrial use that has a low uh interaction with these possible uh problems with you know unlike residents would let's say probably the the um the most you know broadest way to answer the question is is to say that typically reuse use decisions
▶ 1:39:04and land use decisions are largely up to local communities um and local governments responsible for you know zoning or you know if you have uh private um private partnerships or private interests in those types of redevelopment or certain types of industries. So it could it could depend upon the site um and it could depend on the condition of the site and and what those those goals are for. All right, I need to yield. Thank you. I'll yield back. Mr. Chairman, the chair now recognizes U.
▶ 1:39:34Miss Poe for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, uh, Chairman Collins, and Ranking Member Wilson for holding this hearing today. as my my home state of New Jersey shoulders a heavy burden of industrial and hazardous waste.
▶ 1:39:53As a member from as a member from the state with the highest number of super fund sites and a significant number of brown fields, I know well the importance of the environmental uh rem remediation. The New Jersey Department of Environmental uh Protection has identified at least 45 brownfield sites in my district alone.
▶ 1:40:19We must continue to support communities uh that transform contaminated properties into use unusable and to usable pardon me to usable spaces. example, the Patterson uh Great Falls National Historic Park was tainted by centuries of industrial waste.
▶ 1:40:43The brownfield program offered a lifine to address the former Alli textile plant within that park and to promote public health and a cleaner The EPA's uh environmental funding is essential, truly essential for communities struggling with uh generating the tax revenue needed to redevelop abandoned or ablided properties.
▶ 1:41:13The program showcases the strength in a public private partnership that benefits everyone, federal and state partners, businesses, environmental um communities. Um we really need to do something and we need to make sure to preserve these very very important uh communities.
▶ 1:41:39New Jersey is experiencing a significant affordable housing shortage. Mr. Goldstein, in your testimony, you site lowincome housing tax credit as one of the tools to facilitate facilitate affordable housing construction on a former brownfield sites.
▶ 1:42:00Can you please elaborate how on how smaller brownfield sites like those in densely populated uh states like New Jersey can be redeveloped within these district with within with these particular uh tax credits. And if you would also uh share with us what are some of the challenges that are associated with brownfield developments in those particular air uh urban areas. Absolutely.
▶ 1:42:31And I'm prepared to speak for the next three or four hours on those questions. Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of time, but I I'll be I'll be as brief as I can. Um, the first challenge is really making sure that the cleanups are sufficient, that there is the proper amount of regulatory oversight and transparency because there historically has been a lot of questions about the sufficiency of cleanups on on super fund sites and brownfield sites that have been used for housing.
▶ 1:43:00But many states do that well. Many local um regulatory agencies do that well and certainly EPA can and has done that well. That's number one. We want these sites to be cleaned up um to the standard that they need to be cleaned up to make them safe for residential use. That's number one. Number two, the uh lowincome housing tax credit program is one of the most successful financing um that um underly support affordable housing all across the country.
▶ 1:43:29But there's not enough money in LITC to cover the incremental cost and risk associated with environmental cleanup. In order to to perform sufficient cleanups, we need more money to affordable housing developers. One way to do that outside of the grant program is through the low-income housing tax credit program.
▶ 1:43:49In my written materials, I have some very specific suggestions, but then within the context of the Brownfields program, make these grants available to private developers who are engaged in the development of affordable and workforce housing. Currently, grants are not available to that sector.
▶ 1:44:06And then finally, um, referencing the question from one of your colleagues, let's revi let's amend CIRLA to mitigate the harsh impact of strict liability and join several liability so that parties who acquire contaminated sites for affordable housing development and clean those sites up under a state brownfields program have a complete defense against liability under CIRLA. That's what we have in Florida.
▶ 1:44:35that type of liability bar, but you have to do the cleanup. It's a quid proquo. It's not a get out of jail free card. Thank you. Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. The chair now recognizes Mr. Ander for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for all the witnesses uh being here today. Um you know, Mr. Goldstein, you've described Florida's uh brownfields program as a national model uh citing its use of state level incentives and liability protections, efficient permitting.
▶ 1:45:06Um from your experience, do you believe the federal government should play a role in a role mostly by supporting uh and empowering states to tailor solutions rather than expanding Washington's control over brownfield projects? Well, I I think there remains a very vital role for EPA to play. Um, number one, they engender their their mere presence in connection with complicated cleanups engender a lot of public confidence. So, that's number one.
▶ 1:45:35Number two, they bring a lot of expertise to the table and they have a lot of experience in all of that is valuable. Um they also are very efficient in my experience both in the brownfields context and in the super fund redevelopment context as acting as almost um concierge consultants to help local governments and neighborhood stakeholders and developers and their lenders and capital providers understand how to navigate all of the regulatory issues and where the bumps in the road
▶ 1:46:05are from an environmental perspective and a public health perspective. And then in terms of actually bringing dollars to bear, well, that's an important role as well, but they should be in equal partnership with state regulators and local regulators. Yeah, you you brought something up that I was I was wondering about. Um, when it comes to lenders, are lenders often hesitant to to loan money where there's a brownfield redevelopment?
▶ 1:46:35That That's correct. Even the slightest whisper of a hint of a shadow of environmental risk tends to send conventional lenders fleeing because they don't understand these issues. They hear a lot about CIRLA and and other federal programs and state liability programs. They hear the horror stories and it's much easier to lend on a clean site and it's much better for job security.
▶ 1:46:58So, it's it's an existential issue and it's a bit of a a catch 22 or catch 21, whatever the catch is, because projects need financing in order to get over the environmental hurdle, but they can't get over they can't get the financing until they get over the environmental hurdle, which is why I've suggested a Brownfield's loan guarantee fund as a as an opportunity. Yes. Okay. No. Good. Yeah.
▶ 1:47:22So, your support for reauthorization of the Brownfield's tax incentive and and new loan guarantee program sounds very reasonable, but you know, at this time of $36 trillion debt, we want to ensure that we're not just subsidizing risk or inflating costs, what accountability measures do you support uh to ensure these these uh incentives go to high performing uh resultsoriented sites and not less productive
▶ 1:47:52projects. Well, I'm I'm a data h data hound, so I like data. I like reporting and oversight and auditing. Those are um those those generate important metrics and they hold um uh grantees feet to the fire and make sure that cleanups are efficient and cost effective. There are other um belt and suspenders we can add to that process including requiring uh multiple bids for any particular project. Sure.
▶ 1:48:21And you know, you advocate for increasing um low-income housing tax credits for projects built on brownfield sites that may, you know, help with cleanup. But how do we en how do we ensure that we don't end up seeing mission creep where the brownfield uh program just become another affordable housing vehicle as opposed to sticking to the primary mission of cleaning up brownfield sites?
▶ 1:48:49Well, I we we've got a a perfect sto storm of need in this particular public policy arena. We have a lot of sites that need to be cleaned up because there are engines of disinvestment and they um are um orphaned in terms of responsible parties who have money and the the the willingness to conduct cleanup and they provide a significant public health risk. So that's on the one hand and on the other hand we have a tremendous affordable housing crisis, right?
▶ 1:49:16And so from my perspective and my experience, what I'm seeing on the ground in Florida and in um a ranking member Wilson's district is that there is almost an endless ocean of need that you could pour dollars into and not have mission creep. Got it. Yeah. No, I I know back home in the St. metro area.
▶ 1:49:38I'm aware of a number of brownfield sites that are just prime prime real estate for commercial development or for housing and they're just sitting sitting vacant and at very low prices because of these issues. So, no, thank you. Thank you for your testimony. I yield back. M Thank you. The chair now recognizes Miss Freeman for five minutes. Thank you, uh, Mr. Chair. Um, really appreciate the all of the witnesses being here today.
▶ 1:50:05you know, listening to the conversation with the committee, it's very heartening to hear a conversation where you can't really tell what's out side of the aisle the committee members are. Uh there seems to be a lot of uh certainly support for this program and an understanding of I I think of the uh imperative to expand the program uh to really help these communities that have been suffering under the burden of polluted sites and to create the housing that we need. And I hope that there's an openness to expanding this program and putting the funding into it that we need.
▶ 1:50:35So the IGA provides a total of 1.5 billion for the program. Uh money that's directly benefited communities in the LA region. Uh in my uh area in Los Angeles in 2023, the city of LA was suggested for a brownfields cleanup grant provided by the IGA. Uh the grant funds are going to be used to clean up a site called Taylor Yards, which is an old railway line that sits in the middle of Los Angeles that would provide a wonderful parkland for a very park poor community.
▶ 1:51:04Um in also in 2023, the LA County Sanitation District was selected for a brownfield cleanup grant, also funded through the IGA. And these cleanups are vital to our communities. A redevelopment of previously contaminated properties not only protects the health of our communities, but stimulates our local economies and creates jobs.
▶ 1:51:25I want to talk more about about the housing impact because that's the number one crisis in Los Angeles, particularly now after the devastating fires where 10, you know, a couple probably about 20,000 people at least lost their homes and that was on top of an existing housing crisis. Um, and I was really interested in in your suggestions about how to make this program stronger. So, I want to ask a couple of questions because I'm already running out of time.
▶ 1:51:54Whether there's anything that you can anticipate that helps cities pay for the infrastructure that they need, maybe water, sewer, that sort of things on top of what the developers are putting in of their own money for these sites. if we want to to create the housing that we need, sometimes we're going to have to upgrade the infrastructure going into the sites.
▶ 1:52:14also whether you support increasing the low-income housing tax credit under section 42 of the IRS code to 6% and 12% for affordable housing on brownfield sites and whether you think that would have an impact and um whether a new and one-time low-income housing tax credit of 80% of the cost of land acquisition and demolition to develop affordable housing would be beneficial and just anything else that we can take home with us to look at because we do have this huge need to create affordable housing.
▶ 1:52:44and we have this program. So, how do we make it work better? Mr. Goldstein, I think I'll ask you. Um, thank you. I don't want to take all of your time, so I'll try and be brief. Yes, to every uh recommendation you made with respect to the low-income housing tax credit at those levels, at those percentages.
▶ 1:53:03That would be um a tremendous incentive to the private affordable housing um development sector to invest in your area and in other similar areas across the country. Increasing federal funding for infrastructure um water, sewer, especially and roads where um brownfield sites and super fund sites will be reused safely for affordable housing. That's number two with a bullet.
▶ 1:53:29And number three with a bullet, and I'm repeating myself, is let's drain some of the risk and anxiety out of CIRCLA generally and the application of CIRLA to PAS specifically because that's a coming storm by creating an exemption, a blanket exemption under federal law for developers and lenders, provided that the developer and the local government are cleaning up under a state brownfields program that keeps all of these sites out of the national priorities list and the national contingency plan
▶ 1:53:59and allows redevelopment to be more certain. So, I don't know if you're familiar with California's old redevelopment tax increment program that the state clawed back in about 2010. I when I was in the California legislature reintroduced some tax increment programs focusing on specific sites, particularly brownfields and blight. Is there anything that would be a similar scheme at the federal level? And I'm asking this not knowing the answer because I've been looking for some way to help encourage more of this redevelopment.
▶ 1:54:28Is there anything you can think of that would work in a similar way? U two things come to mind immediately. Number one, we could uh could expand the new markets tax credit program to create carveouts and expanded funded opportunities for brownfields generally and affordable and workforce housing on brownfields specifically. So that's number one, the new markets tax credit program.
▶ 1:54:53And number two, expand the opportunity zone program specifically for brownfields and uh as a subsp specifically for housing on brownfields. But I will say this, not just housing alone because there's a mixeduse component that historically has traveled with brownfields that gives you um two two bites at the apple. One is housing for people who need it. And number two is um job creation opportunities.
▶ 1:55:22That's the mixeduse component where you have commercial, retail or industrial. Thank you. I yield back. The chair now recognizes Mr. Herd for five minutes. Thank you very much, Chairman Collins and Ranking Member Wilson for holding this hearing on the brownfields program.
▶ 1:55:37I have the pleasure of serving as the chairman of the natural house natural resources Indian and insular affairs subcommittee and in that capacity as that subcommittee chair I'm interested in learning how this program benefits our tribal communities uh in Indian country and the EPA's brownfield program has provided important funding in Indian country and reme remediating and uh re revising uh these environmental sites the
▶ 1:56:08Southern Indian tribe in my district um has used money to redevelop a brownfield site, for example, for now office space. Um that's one successful um example of use of that program. But I've also heard that tribes can at times struggle to attract non-federal funding particularly compared to counties or local governments. Um and so Mr.
▶ 1:56:29Wilbur, I wanted to ask you, can you talk about specific challenges that you can think of that tribal governments face when accessing Brownfield's funds and how might Congress better empower tribal communities efforts to redevelop their Well, I'll take a stab at it here. Um, um, you know, in county government, we have a lot more resources than some of our tribal partners do.
▶ 1:56:57Uh, and I'll first preference by saying we can go back at no and we can reach out to some of our tribal communities and get you that information so you will have accurate data on that as well. Um, but let's just go back to where I was starting that yes there is significant challenge whether it be staffing to apply for these grants and often times you know the uh reporting on those and then it's also trying to get um developers to develop in those areas too.
▶ 1:57:22Some are very very rural, more rural than my area or other parts of uh you know the Midwest even. So do you have any ideas how tribal communities might attract more non-federal funding um for these projects as a way that we could facilitate that while maybe respecting tribal sovereignty? Any ideas Top of my head I would say no, but we can definitely get you some answers back on that sir. Okay, very good. Um Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:57:51Goldstein, question for you. The inspector general found that millions of dollars in Brownfield's funding, Brownfield's revolving loan fund dollars have sat idle across EPA regions. From the private sector perspective, what are the key barriers to deploying that capital? That's a great question. I've had experience with this specifically in South Florida.
▶ 1:58:15What we've seen is that frankly the RLF grantees, the revolving loan fund grantees tend to want to put that money out at too high an interest rate. They're looking for too high of a return, which to me goes against the public policy associated with those grant funds.
▶ 1:58:36purpose, as I understand it, or as I would like it to be, is to get those funds into the hands of communities and developers as quickly as possible so those funds can be put to work and those sites can be cleaned up and repurposed. Interestingly, the RLF, the revolving loan fund grant that goes to um eligible entities, not inclusive of private developers.
▶ 1:59:03Once those funds are received by the RLF grantees, they can be loaned out to private developers and we have used those, our clients and my development company has used that but it's been slowgoing for most RLF grantees typically because they're asking for too much in terms of an interest rate.
▶ 1:59:27So, what I would like to see, if if I may, is a requirement from Congress imposing a cap on the amount of interest that can be charged. It's important that the money be paid back so that the money could be put back out on the street. That's the whole concept of a revolving loan, but not at an interest factor that makes it uncompetitive or punitive. We want to lower uh barriers to redevelopment for private developers. How would what would you suggest how that cap would be formulated?
▶ 1:59:57Just out of curiosity, I'm sorry. How would that cap be formulated? Any ideas what that might look like? I would like I it best case scenario would be a 0% interest that money would fly out the door and it would be put immediately to use. Okay, very good. Uh, thank you very much, Mr. Goldstein. With that, Mr. Chair, I yield back. The chair now recognizes Miss Scolton for five minutes.
▶ 2:00:23Thank you, Chair Collins and Ranking Member Wilson and to our esteemed witnesses uh for joining us here today and for your incredible work on this issue. Uh Michigan is the beating heart of this country's manufacturing operations.
▶ 2:00:38And while that is an immense source of pride uh for our state, unfortunately, careless disposal of hazardous materials associated with that heavy manufacturing has left my home state with nearly 24,000 contaminated sites. all while being nestled right next to the largest freshwater resource uh in the entire world.
▶ 2:01:03Um the first source of attack of course should always be holding bad actors accountable who have polluted and need to clean up their messes. But when they're not, these properties are thrust on the shoulders of taxpayers and local governments to clean up and repurpose.
▶ 2:01:20Unfortunately, the EPA's brownfield programs have provided uh excuse me, fortunately, the EPA's brownfield uh programs have provided communities with the resources necessary to catalyze the redevelopment and safely address these pollutants. The bipartisan infrastructure law built on this progress, directing 9 million in federal grants uh funding to Michigan alone, uh has shown just how effective these programs can be.
▶ 2:01:50These investments have remedied the wrongdoings of the past while preparing the state to innovate and preserve its manufacturing legacy. My first question, in addition to encouraging environmental stewardship, the Brownfield program is also a key tool, as I mentioned, to revitalize these communities. I share the chairman's concerns about fiscal responsibility. In fact, I stand on fiscal responsibility.
▶ 2:02:17It is essential that we spend our taxpayer dollars uh in an effective manner. Uh throughout Michigan, we have seen how fiscally responsible investment in this program can be. Redeveloped properties have ushered in new jobs, incre increased local tax bases and stimulated neighborhoods. You know, these investments are an incredible use of taxpayer dollars, reinvesting money right back into these communities.
▶ 2:02:44Miss Shook, can you speak to how redevelopment of blighted properties is an effective use of taxpayer dollars and how it benefits local economies across the country? you. Investment in our communities really can allow the locals to to reinvent um how their communities have developed.
▶ 2:03:08whether it be built around a former, you know, auto manufacturing site, which we also have many of in Ohio, to see them think differently about how they want it to look in the future, whether it be mixed use and housing or a a new commercial development um completely.
▶ 2:03:27they can change the you know health effects in the community from having dangerous you know contaminants ava a available for for exposure to their communities to a new productive use. So we've seen a variety um of projects come through especially through our voluntary cleanup program that have created uh brand new metro parks in areas that were un otherwise industrial histories.
▶ 2:03:54um you'll see that on the Lake Erie Riverfront and a a few of our different communities. Um to moving back, you know, the the com the commercial developments a block away so that you can can keep your park space available and have all those recreational and tourism aspects and then you have new commercial vibrant businesses opening, new office spaces, new restaurants that that drive visitors to your communities.
▶ 2:04:20um it's it's can be a true catalyst to getting um people back into your neighborhoods. So, I I think your testimony speaks for itself and it's essential to be asking as we look to these cuts. Why why are we saying we can't afford this right now? Right? We have choices to to be made in this country.
▶ 2:04:41And while on the one hand we are allowing massive tax breaks uh to major corporations, you know, we're saying we can't afford this incredibly fiscally responsible investment back into our communities. To me, it seems like we can't afford not to. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. The uh chair now recognizes uh Mr. Doliner. I don't I'm sorry I butchered that.
▶ 2:05:09Obviously, you took French in in high school because that was great. It wasn't McDonald's. It was called French fries. I responded anything close to it. Um, well, thank you to all the witnesses. Uh, Mr. Goldstein, I wanted to ask you a question. I represent an area in the San Francisco Bay area. The county I've represented for a long time at the local um, state and federal level. Uh, I was an air regulator but worked closely with the regional water quality board.
▶ 2:05:35We have the highest industrial and um hazardous material sites on the west coast by concentration geographically in population because the Bay Area is very populated. But because of the access to deep water ports, it's really crucial um particularly to the petroleum industry. There are five refineries. They're mostly in uh Mr. Garmend's district, but have been in mine in my various service.
▶ 2:06:00So what's happening is and also Northern California is um transitioning very rapidly both mostly from market rate uh in terms of renewable fuels and alternative energy cars. So we've got one refinery that just announced last week or two weeks ago, the Valero refinery in Venicia, California. Now these five refineries produce 25% of the carb certified fuel in California.
▶ 2:06:29uh and 50% of the diesel fuel. So the ripple effect. So there's, you know, super fun sites, brownfield sites. Most of the property in the Bay Area doesn't get deserted. We have had brownfield sites, but it's the interaction between these that I'm interested in where the liability is when venture capital companies decide to come in and buy a big hazardous material site um because it's not worth what it was 10 years ago.
▶ 2:06:56And as they see the transition happening largely because of the private sector in spite of some of my colleagues saying it's regulatory there is regulatory enforcement that I support and appropriate. So that's sort of my broad question is um in this case with Valero I think they're leveraging uh the the local uh city council um has been very demanding on them but there's a lot of demand to come in and buy the property but in that transition whether it's brownfield super fund public oversight
▶ 2:07:27uh at the state or the local level we've had a lot of problem with the regional water quality board where the business model seems to me in some of these places that have been bought bought now and are just going to the one plant that was bought. Um, they said we bought it for spare parts because we know there's a limited time frame to this refinery. So, discharge petitions and and what's going into the Bay Delta, all of that sort of intersects with brownfields. Are they going to leave the site?
▶ 2:07:56Prospectively, they could. So, I just curious if you had any view and um I realized this specific hearing, but it intersects with the larger economic uh where we're changing a lot of our use to hazardous material sites in areas that have concentrations of them and it has a lot of impact on environmental justice as we've switched in California to talk about the cumulative effects. So, back to this hearing.
▶ 2:08:23It's a small potential portion of the overall conversation I'm trying to have with you, but if you have any thoughts in particular about this and where it might be something that we have to think about of supporting it. And then lastly, region 9 where EPA is headquartered in the West Coast has been a target in the first administration where he actually moved the administrator out of offices and has pushed for early buyout.
▶ 2:08:48So we don't have the resources we used to have in Northern California and on the west coast because region 9 is being abandoned particularly EPA. So for these types of sites where you have um a very significant history of acutely um of use of acutely hazardous materials that are likely widespread creating significant public health risk and questions regarding
▶ 2:09:19the confidence that the public will have in the um completeness and thoroughess of the cleanup that um illustrates the need for a very vital and vibrant regulatory dimension um to go handinand glove with all of the economic incentives that will be necessary to encourage the private sector to do most of the heavy lifting associated
▶ 2:09:50with that magnitude of cleanup. And so if you're asking me what my view is of that type of scenario, which is played out all over the country, um it's it's that um the Brownfields program is multi-dimensional. It's not just about grants. It's not just about liability protection. It's not just about um private capital coming in or regulatory oversight to protect public health.
▶ 2:10:20It's all of that. Um and so there's not one particular box that this committee can or should check and expect that the um the momentum that has been achieved since the mid1 1990s will be ma maintained. Put another way to bring this in this answer in for a landing.
▶ 2:10:42We need to continue to have strong regulatory oversight at the federal level when the uh issues are exceedingly complex and may have a federal component, a multi-state component, also state and local regulatory oversight on the one hand and then all of the financial tools and the liability tools on the other. Yeah. And I Mr. Mr.
▶ 2:11:05Chairman, it's just it's really interesting to see as these big billion dollar assets from the private sector become less of an asset and more of a liability from the financial model and where it's appropriate for us and Congress to be and all of these refineries here to were very high performing in their total portfolio partially because the public demanded it. one one last one last um point on your question which is a great question and I think this may be what you're getting at.
▶ 2:11:33As these billion dollar assets transition to billion dollar liabilities, there are um funds out there, very um significantly resourced funds that will rush to fill that gap and make the safe transition. But they need the right regulatory environment in which to do that.
▶ 2:11:56And and in that sense um while regulatory oversight to protect public health is critical, we also need um the appropriate um opportunities from a circla perspective to as I mentioned earlier drain the anxiety out of potential enforcement. Yeah, I I want to thank the chairman for indulging us, but I'll just close with this. The property itself is worth a lot of money. They're developers who are interested with all liabilities.
▶ 2:12:25So the existing value of that liability still continues and the local government has a lot of say because they have the land use jurisdiction. So it's a fascinating subject. Thank you. Gentleman yields back. You're fine. We're actually we're going to I was going to open up for a second round of questioning right quick because personally I had uh a few questions of my own that I wanted to to ask. So I'm going to uh yield myself five minutes uh for questioning. Um, I want to open up. Mr.
▶ 2:12:55Larson, can you give us the difference in a super fund and a Brownsville? And can a Brownsfield be a super fund? Sure, I'm happy to, uh, address the question and provide some points on that. So um like I mentioned um in my my written my opening statement um the super fund program was established in 1980 um largely uh in response to very high-profile cases where you had you know variety of hazardous waste sites and communities that were acutely exposed to
▶ 2:13:25various contamination along with other factors um that led to that enactment. Um and so as part of that, CIRCA established a or Congress under CIRLA established a liability framework um for potentially responsible parties who are responsible for releasing those hazardous substances into the environment.
▶ 2:13:43And so when you're looking at the cir framework under super fun program, it is a a a cleanup program that's responding to releases of of hazardous substances and other pollutants and contaminants into the environment. So you can think of it as it's an enforcement first framework where EPA is looking to under the super fund program, they're looking to enforce liability first against potentially responsible parties to make them pay for the cleanup at the site.
▶ 2:14:12Um whereas there's, you know, there are, you know, not that we have time to get into it, but there's there's certain um other mechanisms for sites that are elevated the national priorities list. you you have additional federal funding mechanisms through the hazardous substance super fund trust fund for those types of sites. Um for the brownfields program, it it was set up and it's authorized within CIRLA. Um but it it provides it's it's primarily a a grant-based program um for these eligible entities and these eligible sites.
▶ 2:14:41um that's intended to both, you know, as we've been speaking about, provide uh some economic assistance or financial assistance for these specific projects. Um but in addition to that to provide liability exemptions so that you have um you know, we talked about there's the um current and former owners and operators of the site.
▶ 2:15:05Um you also have strict liability and joint several um retroactive to the time of That's where I want I to pick up from there and it's a good segue into my next question with Mr. Goldstein. Uh can you quantify the loss of investment for from private sector just because of that liability problem that they perceive or they may have? I I I can't do it um scientifically chairman but I can speak um from experience.
▶ 2:15:33I can tell you what my my um I I have a a gut-based answer. And in Florida alone, we've probably seen close to a billion dollars in avoided transactions as a result of potential exposure to circular liability. That's just one person's environmental practice over a 33-year time frame. You could probably multiply that by several orders of magnitude.
▶ 2:16:06Thank you. Um, Miss Shook, uh, I was listening to someone else's, uh, testimony. Did, um, are all sites to be cleaned to a use or is it like a commercial? So, so our we do not clean all sites to a residential use.
▶ 2:16:30Uh in our voluntary cleanup program, we have standards for both commercial sites and for residential sites. Um it we allow the end user to determine which land use um they are interested in. Um any site could be residential with the uh right amount of funding. Thank you. Thank you. Um and one last question, I'll open this up to everybody. Are we adding sites continually or has it stopped?
▶ 2:16:58I mean, at some point we should be able to hold people liable for messing up the the land like that. I mean, I can understand things that years and years ago, but are we still adding or have we plateaued? I can I'll I'll take that. Um, yes, we are still adding.
▶ 2:17:19Um, as businesses go um under, as they file for bankruptcy, um, while we can try to hold them accountable, they are often, you know, overwhelmed with their liabilities and can't complete a cleanup. Um, that's where the brownfield program is. Many of our brownfields aren't massive, you know, sites. A lot of them still are mom and pop gas stations, a corn a dry cleaner, a former mechanic shop.
▶ 2:17:47And in many of those cases, you're never going to have an entity that can fund the cleanup um that they were responsible for. All right. Thank you. Uh I yield back. U Mr. Sonia, did you have additional questions? Just wanted to follow up sort of again on the same line in looking at going forward where we have such a large part of potential brownfield sites in the country around energy transition. Um what could we do better?
▶ 2:18:16so that we could avoid these liability issues to make sure that we anticipate this huge transition the fifth of the economy in my view is happening and I just happen to be in a region that leads it uh in many ways. What do you think from your experience, m Mr.
▶ 2:18:32Goldstein, where we could sort of go upstream and protect the revenue for Brown for Brownfield but anticipate these huge transitions we're going through on hazardous material sites related to energy? Thank you for the question. A few thoughts.
▶ 2:18:50Number one, enforcement at the federal level, at the state level, remains a critical public policy need because without a cop on the beat, people are going to do what people tend to do, which is take shortcuts. Now, not everyone will do that, but enough people will do that that we'll continue to see the volume of impacted sites increase. And sometimes things happen not because people intend them to, but that's just the way it goes in in industry and business.
▶ 2:19:19but to to get ahead of the game, which is I think what you're getting at. Um what Congress can do is a lot of what we talked about today, improve the process, shorten the time um from which a party applies for a grant and that money gets to where it needs to go. That's number one.
▶ 2:19:39And number two, um, put in place more statutory tools to create, um, broader exemptions from liability so that private capital will feel more comfortable investing in these risky sites. The best way to get ahead of the game is to incentivize private parties to tackle these problems sooner than later so that we don't discover 10 years down the road that we could have done something 10 years earlier.
▶ 2:20:07And just a follow-up question, having served at every level of government and having started as a Republican, um some of my colleagues are always shocked to hear that uh but parties change is the inefficiency of sometimes I'm speaking in California is although I love it is the the federal regulators particularly visav region 9 that used to work closely with California and local government.
▶ 2:20:32What could we do to coordinate that knowing that the modeling shows that these facilities in places like I represent are changing because of the private sector. So we coordination of the regulatory agencies is a frustration for me. They all do a good job but their coordination is not very effective in in terms of environmental redevelopment. There's a model at the federal level that um is somewhat dormant. the federal brownfield's partnership.
▶ 2:20:59In theory, a number of the federal brown a number of the federal agencies are supposed to be coordinating all of their brownfield resources, the army corps of engineers, housing and urban development, department of energy, um economic uh department of of commerce and so on. That um rarely happens unfortunately.
▶ 2:21:19Going forward, it would be wonderful to have a that type of coordination not just among the federal partners but among state partners as well to identify some of these larger transitional projects so that all of the agency stakeholders can collaborate with local government officials and the developers who are bringing the capital to the table.
▶ 2:21:40And as far as the modeling goes, just getting DOE, Department of Transportation, uh EPA resources all to have communication at least in region 9, they were pretty good, but they still just working across sister agencies at the federal level and then working with the state and the regional agencies and local agencies was always pretty inefficient and largely stove. So for the private sector, it was um not very efficient.
▶ 2:22:09to the degree if there's anyone on the other side of the aisle who would like to work with uh someone like myself on this I think it could be very helpful and then we wouldn't have to use brownfield monies because we'd get far enough ahead of it that we could stop people from having the liability of walking away. I think Brownfield's money brownfield's grants will always have an important role to play at least at the very um inception of a project. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you witnesses. Thank you.
▶ 2:22:39The gentleman yields back. Are there any further questions from any other members? Not seeing anyone in here. Uh that's going to conclude our hearing for the day. I would like to thank each of the witnesses for your testimony. The subcommittee stands