▶ 0:30:51Committee will come to order. Uh this morning I'd like to welcome the 55th Secretary of Interior, Doug Bergam. And I want to apologize for the halfhour late start. We were listening to the boss uh over in conference and uh and consequently it got pulled back just a little bit. Mr. Secretary, this is your first formal budget hearing before our subcommittee. While I am disappointed you didn't arrive in didn't arrive in a covered wagon, on behalf of our members, I'd like to offer our congratulations on your confirmation.
▶ 0:31:20I was reading your biography, just the short one that they give us. And I'm going to read this into the into the record because I think it it demonstrates uh your commitment. under his leadership in North Dakota as North Dakota governor passed the largest tax increase or excuse me the largest tax cut in state history and dramatically reduced red tape. As a testament to Bergam's leadership, Forbes named him America's best entrepreneurial governor.
▶ 0:31:49During his tenure, North Dakota experienced the highest growth in real GDP and had the lowest unemployment rate in the country. That's a pretty good record. So, welcome here today. Our hearing today will address the fiscal year 2026 budget priorities for the Department of Interior and provide you with an opportunity to outline our goals for the department.
▶ 0:32:09I thoroughly enjoyed our sitdown meeting uh hearing firsthand about your time in the private sector as well as governor and how you plan to apply lessons learned from these experiences to address the many challenges facing the department. As a native North Dotan uh and former CEO of a successful tech company, you bring a fresh perspective to the department.
▶ 0:32:29I look forward to learning how you plan to reshape the agency while promoting domestic energy production, unlocking uh critical minerals, addressing the maintenance backlog at our national parks and public lands, and meeting our treaty and trust uh obligations throughout Indian country. This committee stands ready to roll up our sleeves and work with you to implement efficiencies and reduce redundancies across the agency so that the focus can be on investments that advance the department's core mission.
▶ 0:32:57Overall, the president's skinny budget uh for FY 2026 uh request provides roughly 10.6 billion for the Department of Interior programs under this subcommittee's jurisdiction. While we recognize the administration proposed some deep funding cuts that will likely not uh we will likely do not see eye to eye with some of these, especially when it comes to Indian programs and the operations of our national parks.
▶ 0:33:25Today's hearings is just the first step in our month-long budget review process. I'll note that when it comes uh to funding discussions ahead, this subcommittee under both Republican and Democratic leadership remains committed to upholding the responsibilities of fulfilling our treaty and trust responsibilities with tribes. I know you have uh experienced uh you have extensive experience engaging with tribes during your time as governor.
▶ 0:33:51We look forward to working closely with you to prioritize this year's funding to address the greatest tribal needs, including education, law enforment, law enforcement, and law land management issues. In terms of policy, I look forward to learning how you are working with the White House to unleash America's energy, streamline permitting, and the Endangered Species Act reviews, and improve wildland firefighting.
▶ 0:34:13I also want to personally thank you and the administration for halting the Lavidge wind project in Idaho, something that had literally no local support whatsoever. As you well know, this out-ofouch project failed to prioritize the concerns of Idahoans and was rammed through by the previous administration. Secretary Bergam, thank you again for joining us this morning.
▶ 0:34:33Going forward, I hope we can uh continue to keep an open line of communications to ensure that as this committee moves through the budget process, we can continue making sound investments to advance the administration's agenda and ensure the long-term well-being of the department. With that, I'd yield to ranking member Miss Pingri for any opening remarks that she may have. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you for uh holding this hearing this morning. And Secretary Berg, thank you very much for being with us today.
▶ 0:35:00I appreciated that um the slight delay in committee gave me a chance to uh say an initial hello to you and nice to meet uh even though I represent Maine, a fellow Midwesterner since I was born in Minnesota. Yasher, you betcha. Uh I do want to thank you for bringing your many skills as a former governor and a businessman to this very important position.
▶ 0:35:20The Department of Interior is tasked with protecting and managing our natural resources and cultural heritage to providing scientific information about those resources and honoring our trust and treaty responsibility. But I will warn you, I am very concerned about the state of the Department of Interior. From my view, in just four months, the department has been destabilized and there's been a stunning decline in its ability to meet its mission.
▶ 0:35:45Given your extensive executive experience, I am disappointed that you would allow this to happen. In partnership with Elon Musk's what I consider a rogue agency, the Doge, you have illegally canceled GL grants for conservation for ecosystem restoration and other important work. Over 1,700 probationary employees have been recklessly fired and 7,600 people or 11% of the interior workforce have been pushed to resign. These are not just numbers.
▶ 0:36:14These people are experts and dedicated public servants with decades of programmatic and institutional knowledge that is critically needed to ensure the department fulfills its mission and is a guardian of our public lands. To make matters worse, the agency has a hiring freeze and you are considering even further reductions in force. I don't see this ending well for this precious agency that this committee is dedicated to oversee and this committee has devoted hundreds of hours to nurturing this agencies.
▶ 0:36:44I'm very proud to serve on a committee that generally works in a bipartisan way to make sure that the Department of Interior stays strong. Further, due to the policies you have institute in instituted, employees are hamstrung from accomplishing everyday tasks by absurdly limiting credit card expenditures to $1. This is no way to efficient efficiently run an organization. In fact, these actions seem to be designed to obstruct employees from doing their job. Even the National Park Service feels that it's been under attack.
▶ 0:37:15Ahead of peak season, you have gutted staff. So, my national park, like Acadia, in my home state of Maine, is understaffed and without the resources needed to keep summer visitors safe. Our parks are pristine and need to be protected. Fiscal year 2026 is equally devastating with a proposed cut to the department of 30%.
▶ 0:37:35That budget eviscerates the US Geological Survey with a proposed $564 million cut targeting scientific research on national and natural hazards, ecosystems, water, and earth mapping. These programs help us monitor and provide real-time earthquake and hazard information. They strengthen our assessment of groundwater and surface water systems and they help ensure our national security by informing the management of our mineral and energy resources.
▶ 0:38:04Without these programs at USGS, our communities will be left vulnerable to natural disasters and deprived of the scientific data that guides responsible land management. This budget with a 30% cut shamefully abandons our trust and treaty obligations to Native Americans, slashing the Bureau of Indian Affairs public safety and justice programs by 19% when we are already only meeting a fraction of the need.
▶ 0:38:31The budget also chooses to eliminate funding for a desperately needed school construction, leaving a $1 billion repair backlog So, Secretary Bergam, the document we're here to discuss today is more than just a budget. It's a blueprint for dismantling the very mission of the Department of Interior, making it impossible to protect our natural resources and iconic national parks or uphold our commitments to tribal communities now and for future generations.
▶ 0:39:01As the ranking member on this committee, I wholeheartedly oppose these cuts. I cannot stand by and watch this agency be hauled out. So, thank you again for being here this morning. I'm sorry that we disagree on the perspective on how this department should be run. And I do hope you are here to give us a rationale for these decisions or to work with us to reverse them. And I yield back. Thank you, Miss Pingry. Uh we were going to have opening statements by Mr.
▶ 0:39:29Cole and Miss Deloro, but they've been delayed obviously. So, we'll just go on with your testimony right now, Mr. Secretary. Your floor is yours. Good morning. Uh, thank you, uh, Chairman Simpson and Ranking Member Pingri, uh, and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:39:51Thank you for the opportunity to testify in support of President Trump's fiscal year 2026 budget blueprint request for the Department of Interior and discuss uh what we're doing to make America safer, stronger, more beautiful, and more prosperous. Uh as you all know extremely well, the department oversees both onshore and offshore energy resources. We manage federal trust responsibilities with our tribal nations. We deliver water to the west.
▶ 0:40:17We oversee uh hundreds of wildlife refues and national parks and cultural sites. The resources that we sustainably govern directly impact the lives of every American every day. Uh interior managed resources hold a significant position on America's balance sheet. The public lands and minerals within the interior domain include more than 480 million acres of surface land, 750 million acres of subservice and mineral estate, and more than 2.5 billion acres of offshore.
▶ 0:40:48Our national resources are national assets that belong to the public and they should be responsibly managed to help grow our economy, help balance our budget and generate a revenue for the American citizens. With common sense approaches and modern systems, we can increase the returns for our citizens, strengthen our economy, create great paying and meaningful jobs, all while protecting our beautiful lands, our abundant wildlife, and our clean air and clean water.
▶ 0:41:15The president's 2026 budget blueprint requests 1.9 billion in current authority for the department, providing significant savings to the uh American people. Of that amount, uh 10.6 6 billion is within the jurisdiction of the Interior uh environment subcommittee.
▶ 0:41:34The the 2026 budget for the department features strategic investments to further President Trump's commitments to energy dominance which is the foundation of American prosperity, national security and world peace. Uh we are focused on increasing the production of affordable, reliable energy on federal lands.
▶ 0:41:54Uh we've already taken some common sense measures to increase production uh in the Gulf by 100,000 barrels a day with a simple policy change uh with with this will help reduce the price at the pump for American families and we proudly announced uh that the first historic lease sale in the newly renamed Gulf of America will occur later this year.
▶ 0:42:17Uh we're also busy uh rectifying the mountain of restrictions uh designed to restrict resource development in Alaska. Last month uh we removed layers of red tape that undermine coal production on federal lands. Clean American coal is a triple win for our country because thermal coal provides reliable and affordable base load electricity at a time when we need more electricity than ever. Metallurgical coal is the foundation for bringing back our steel industry which we need for national security.
▶ 0:42:47And the mining and refining of coal that contains critical and rare earth minerals is essential to secure our own domestic supply chains for our defense, transportation and tech industries because today we we are in a a huge position of vulner vulnerability relative to our critical mineral supply chain. Right now, America is in an artificial intelligence arms race with China. This race is going to be won uh not only by technology but by electricity production.
▶ 0:43:17Keeping domestic coal fired power generation open will help us win this contest while driving down electricity costs for American families and improving the reliability of our grid. The department is also undertaking efforts to establish our position as the leading producer and processor of critical and rare earth minerals. Uh which will create jobs and prosperity at home, strengthen domestic supply chains for the United States and its allies, increase our national security, and reduce the global influence of adversarial states.
▶ 0:43:47Preventing and combating wildfires is a vitally important to protect people, communities, and the environment. Nearly 65,000 wildfires burned more than 8.9 million acres across the United States last year, endangering communities, critical infrastructure, and local economies. Federal wildlife risk mitigation and suppression responsibilities for wildlife fire, as this uh committee knows, is currently split across five agencies in two different departments.
▶ 0:44:14Uh we've got dup duplicative and ineffective structures uh that couldn't be improved. Uh the budget, this budget uh proposes reforming the federal wildland fire management to create an operational efficiencies by consolidating and unifying federal wildland fire responsibilities into a new centralized federal wildland fire service at the Department of Interior.
▶ 0:44:36This new service will streamline federal wildfire suppression response, risk mitigration efforts, and coordinate with non-federal partners, including states, local, and tribes uh to combat the wildfire crisis. Uh the Department of Interior unfolds the or upholds the federal's government's unique trust responsibility by fostering government-togovernment relations between the federal government and federally recognized tribes, American Indians, and Alaskan natives.
▶ 0:45:05This budget supports programs at the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Bureau of Indian Education, sustaining the federal government support of the core programs that benefit tribal communities. Since becoming Interior Secretary, I've had the opportunity to travel to our national parks, historic sites, uh Bureau of Land Management, and Bureau of Reclamation, uh uh some incredible locations, including the the Hoover Dam. uh Bureau of Reclamation is the number two hydro power producer uh in America.
▶ 0:45:35Uh and and I've also visited the wildlife refugees to learn and hear more from the leadership on the ground at each of these places. We're instituting changes to get more people actually working on the front lines. And we're looking forward to an outstanding summer at our historic sites, parks, and refues. By opening more areas to hunting and outdoor recreation, we're helping to drive tourism, create jobs, and generate revenue for local communities. all while promoting responsible stewardship of our natural resources.
▶ 0:46:03Interior is also focused on streamlining our core business operations, which will result in significantly improved efficiencies and lower costs for Americans and will benefit each of the bureaus within Interior. This budget is about putting America first and doing the best for American taxpayer. As Interior moves forward, these initiatives set the foundation for renewed focus on responsible resource management and economic growth.
▶ 0:46:27I appreciate that the subcommittee has strongly supported the department's mission and I look forward to working closely with you to advance these priorities. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Uh if uh the chairman of the full committee and the ranking member of the full committee come in, we'll let them make an opening statement uh when they come. Uh first, let me ask you about this.
▶ 0:46:51As I mentioned in my opening statement, the president's skinny budget request proposed cuts to the Department of Interior that we may not be able to fully replicate in our FY26 bill. Uh you may have seen that we had EPA administer administrator Lee Zeldon testify before our subcommittee last week and I asked him the same question that I'm going to ask you.
▶ 0:47:11If Congress chooses to provide discretionary appropriations for the agency that are levels above the president's are at levels above uh the president's budget request, how would you handle that? In other words, would you spend the amounts provided in uh in an enacted bill and for the specific programs that Congress identifies? Uh yes, that would be the law. Okay. Let me ask you another question. I also wanted to take a moment to ask about land exchanges.
▶ 0:47:42Uh, Secretary Bergam, in order to assess and execute all land exchanges that come before the department, does the agency have all the tools it needs to carry out the current processes or are additional authorities necessary? And I I assume that the processes include you have to have appraisals and all of that type of thing. You have to do public hearings. You have to have tribal consultations, etc., etc. Do you have all the tools to do that or are additional authorities necessary?
▶ 0:48:10Well, we have a a good uh set of tools in the tool bag today. Uh and one one example of that that we've already completed uh was a a land exchange uh with the state of Utah that we completed back in February. It's about 200,000 acres of of federal and 188,000 acres of state.
▶ 0:48:30Uh this was a project that had been had worked on uh for some time uh but was able to get completed in February and was able to sign that with Utah Governor Spencer Cox. Uh as you know out west uh we've got plenty of places where we've got a checkerboard of land and in this case we were able to trade lands to sort of fill in the checkerboard for the state and fill in the checkerboard at the federal level.
▶ 0:48:57In the case of the lands received uh from Utah, we were able to fill in a checkerboard of a wilderness area uh that was a federal wilderness area that will remain wilderness area and but is now uh doesn't create the uh the complications of us trying to have every other section be wilderness area with with state the state having different set of regulations a different set of people managing those resources in between.
▶ 0:49:21Conversely, at the state level, uh the state now has got contiguous uh opportunities to choose whether they want to do that for affordable housing, whether they want to do it for recreation, whether they want to do it for uh for for state parks or state recreation. So, it was a definitely a win-win uh in both cases. And you know, and in this case, these are these are public lands that remained in public hands because it was a swap between uh the federal government and a state. Uh I think there's uh more opportunity to do that.
▶ 0:49:51As you know when the the railroads transsected the west as one of the incentives to uh get those railroads built they gave at one time into private sector these checkerboard of land as an incentive. And so I there's I think there's a big opportunity for for those kinds of swaps and and I also uh as governor uh of North Dakota was chairman of the land board.
▶ 0:50:14Uh so I've got you know 8 years of experience of where we were able to you know once in state hands sometimes it was better for us to move those lands uh you know down into uh more local control for local uses and so we were able to do that because again as a general principle uh I've uh as a as a governor I've found uh that uh state game and fish uh state land management state grazing associations local I mean all this I mean I I I have to say I never met someone from DC
▶ 0:50:44that cared more about the land, the water, the wildlife, the fish at the local level uh than the people in those states. And I know that the representatives at this table uh have all come from states that have got deep commitments to uh the land and the wildlife and their their environment. So, I think that there's plenty of opportunities for us to do both, which is uh have more efficient use of public lands and uh do all the protection we need about the things the public cares about that we all care about so deeply. But apparently you do have the authority to do this right now.
▶ 0:51:14You do have the tools to do this. We do. And uh we certainly will be taking a look uh to see if there's other other things that are getting in the way of of uh of efficiently efficiently using uh public lands. Uh I think in particular we're paying attention to the western states. I think it's maybe not well known, but we do have in states that are represented on this committee. Uh Utah over 60% of that is federal land.
▶ 0:51:40Uh Nevada over 80% Alaska uh Nevada's number one in terms of percentage owned by the federal government. Alaska massive amounts of federal land and in in many cases uh we're restricting the restricting the opportunities for those states uh that should have the same opportunity under the United States of America to uh prosper as we have uh other states. We've got states in the east including you know the 13 states that were part of the original colonies. None of them have more than 2% of federal land.
▶ 0:52:10And uh and I don't think any of them would stand up and say we need more federal ownership in our states. I haven't heard that. I haven't heard people saying that. Uh so it's a a u I think there I think there's a path uh a path forward here. There is uh Idaho is third in on the list with uh with uh 64% federal land.
▶ 0:52:32Uh, and uh, I will tell you, as I've told the reporters and stuff, the reason people live in the West, the reason people live in Idaho, because we love our public lands, and we want to make sure that they remain public, so that uh, your favorite hunting grounds or fishing hole or hiking or snowmachining area is not cut off um because of private ownership that bans travel. And in Idaho, travel doesn't mean, oh, they've closed this road, I'll just go down another mile and take the next road.
▶ 0:53:02It sometimes mean you're leaving the state and going into Montana and coming back across the mountains to your P, you know, unreasonable stuff. So, those are concerns I have personally uh about access and uh public lands for public use. So, anyway, let me uh stop for just a minute. And as I say, you might have one member that would be happy that they came to Montana for a while before they came back in. Uh Mr. Cole, chairman of the full committee. Uh go ahead with your opening statement.
▶ 0:53:30Well, I'm not going to do the opening statement having arrived late. I'll submit it for the record. Let me make a couple of quick comments. Uh number one, I apologize for being late, Mr. Secretary, but your boss was in our conference, and uh I have a rule. I don't get up and walk out on the president of the United States. So, uh that's a very good rule. and uh seems to have worked well over the years and uh uh but uh I also wanted to say how glad I am that he made the decision to appoint you to this job.
▶ 0:53:59I think you are superbly suited for it. You have an excellent background. You know the issues uh frankly better than any incoming secretary that I've seen during my tenure in Congress. And I particularly appreciate the fact you had such strong tribal support from your home state, from people you dealt with dealt with for many years and thought very highly of your your tenure there.
▶ 0:54:20And I particularly coming from Oklahoma appreciate the energy background, the energy interest and and the sheer knowledge uh that you bring to this job and what that's going to mean for the country going forward. Uh you're going to like this committee. Quite frankly, you won't agree with them on every single thing. Uh but Mike is one of our best uh best chairman without a doubt and Miss Pingry is one of our very best ranking members and of course has chaired this committee in the past as well. Uh and they know how to strike a deal.
▶ 0:54:48They know how to work together and when they fight they do it in an appropriate way. So uh again I think you're going to enjoy working with the members on both sides frankly of the aisle in this particular subcommittee. Well, that uh as you know and we've had the opportunity to discuss offline before I do care and I know this committee cares on both sides of the aisle very very strongly about tribal issues. So I wanted to ask you can you talk a little bit maybe you've done are we into questioning as well? Okay.
▶ 0:55:16I assume we were um can you talk a little bit about the the cut to BIA operations of Indian programs and BIA education again? And uh BIE I should say. Yes. Uh well, first of all, let me just start with uh with BIE. Uh there there's some incredible challenges. Let's just step back from the budget a little bit.
▶ 0:55:39I mean, there's 125,000 uh K12 kids involved in this BIE system and uh the challenges there are greater than just the budget dollars and the construction. Uh it's interesting that this is a a similar size. The state of North Dakota had about exactly uh students in in a K12 system.
▶ 0:56:02In North Dakota, we had BIE schools, we had tribal schools, and we had uh public schools uh in North Dakota uh and a small number of uh you know, private, you know, parochial schools. If you stacked them all up together, the the the the ones where we were spending the highest dollar amount and had the worst outcomes was the BIE schools.
▶ 0:56:25And and as a governor, this was frustrating because I felt again, you know, hey, does you know, every enrolled member of every tribe is also a North Dakota citizen and a US citizen. And when I took office and when I campaigned, I said, doesn't matter if you voted for me or not as governor, I'm responsible for everybody here. And we're to the degree that whether it's roads or public safety uh or uh education, uh you know, felt that responsibility. But the BIE schools were tough to get it because they were, you know, they were isolated.
▶ 0:56:54we had a better shot at helping the tribal schools that were tribal tribally run but still could get state aid than we could on BIE. So I I'm you know bringing a lens where I've had an opportunity to see this thing where it's not uh you know funding is the issue and there's a lot of deferred maintenance out there. I mean for sure there is and and uh we need that but we've got to figure out uh there there's something else going on here that we have to take a look at other than just budget. I mean I think we've seen that across education this country.
▶ 0:57:22It's not always a correl correlative between the more money you spend the better outcomes you get. So that's something that we're dedicated as we get our team on board and bring people on board. We're trying to really dig into this uh you know dig in to understand uh you know what the challenges and the opportunities are and and I think that uh you know they're not spread. There's many states that do not have any BIE schools and so there's an opportunity to to look for deeper partnerships between the states.
▶ 0:57:49uh and and also uh to to say at the tribal thing because some of the tribes that have taken over uh the responsibility for those BIE schools at a local level, some of them have got an interest in the resources to do it. The really sad place when you think about synergies in states like mine, there's we got one tribe where you've got a BIE school and a tribal school and they're, you know, within a mile of each other and you know, and you're like, okay, are they why wouldn't they be working together?
▶ 0:58:17I mean, is it because they're worried about five less, you know, spots on the starting basketball team, or is it because of some uh economic incentive that's causing people to say, "Hey, I want to we want to keep the the tribal school because uh of the uh pay structure for teachers and schoolboard members versus a public school where maybe schoolboard members are not getting paid.
▶ 0:58:39I mean, I think we got to really dig in and try to find out why why in those cases it wouldn't be just a natural desire to uh to get synergies uh between those existing structures. And I think it's going to be on a community by community case byase basis. But this is not we're not talking about millions and millions of I mean by comparison Clark County has got 300,000 students in one county. I mean we're talking aboutund these are small rural schools which I'm very familiar with but even within those I think there's a way where we can find some solutions.
▶ 0:59:08So, yeah, I'm I'm I uh I know, people will be concerned about a proposed budget that has lower dollars, but I'm I'm more concerned about how do we find a long-term solution because we could fund it at the funded at last year's level, fund it at a higher level, and I don't think we and then I, you know, the question you should be asking me is, are we getting better outcomes? I mean, we're running an education system, and that's the thing that we've got to be focused on together.
▶ 0:59:33So would love to come back and work with all of you uh as we try to really pull this thing back because it's we if we have a trust responsibility we shouldn't be uh just saying let's give more money to the worst performing K12 system in the country and it's not because we don't have teachers that care uh you know because there's people that are in these systems that you know care deeply but let's let's go figure that problem out.
▶ 0:59:56I don't know if you've got staff that's focused on on BIE in particular, but this is one of the issues that uh that requires some some real attention. Well, I certainly agree with that, but I also think that kids have to have a good place to learn, too. And sometimes that's an expression of whether or not you care about them very much. And we I've been to some excellent BIE schools and some excellent thing. I I totally agree with your emphasis on culture and outcome, but I've been to some places I wouldn't send my kid to.
▶ 1:00:25uh is simply because the resources aren't there and haven't ever been there and it's not your responsibility. You just showed up. But uh you know I've actually toured a lot of these schools with my friend here, the chairman uh and other places and and tribes will vary as you know greatly in their ability to resource things. Uh it makes a lot of difference if you happen to be fortunate enough and have mineral wealth or you happen to have a location and you've got a gaming operation.
▶ 1:00:51I don't find tribes being short in taking care of their own people when they've got the resources to do it. I have often found the federal government very short in fulfilling its fresh responsibility. So, um I just say that is something we'll be looking at. Um I appreciate having you there. But I would say, Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:01:09Chairman, I agree with you on that last point because of course we've got an energy tribe in North Dakota that we've worked hard uh to get the Fed, you know, work with them side by side to cut federal red tape to allow them to develop their energy resources. We worked on tax sharing agreements to make sure that we had fair agreements with them. And once they had their economy going, they had every every some of the nicest schools in our state are in MHA Nation. I mean I mean the the facilities, whatever.
▶ 1:01:38I mean these guys have gone out and I mean they they will put the dollars back into facilities and education uh if we can help them get their economic development. So it's tied I mean the economy economic development is tied to their ability to manage these facilities. Absolutely. I remember talking to a good mutual friend we have Mr.
▶ 1:01:54Ham continental and we were talking about the difficulty of of energy exploration and production on non-federal land which you know North Dakota is famous as a energy friendly and supportive state versus what happened the minute he crossed an imaginary line onto an Indian reservation. And it was not the tribes, it was the just relentless uh you know federal regulation uh fee structure, everything else.
▶ 1:02:23And uh so I I commend your work in that because again, if they have resources, they'll they'll put them in the right places. And well, and I would say I've always said that the hardest job in politics is not a, you know, representative or a senator or a governor.
▶ 1:02:37it's being a tribal chair or a tribal member because they have to deal with layers of federal regulation in addition to my mother was the first Native American uh woman in the state senate in Oklahoma and I asked her once why didn't you do tribal politics she said it's too tough that's like family politics and it is can I have I'm abusing my time but I have one more area I particularly wanted to ask you about if I may um you know December disaster supplemental which again right before you got here
▶ 1:03:07provided $50 million for historic preservation fund and 2.3 billion for the National Park Service to reconstruct historic sites and park service units that were damaged from disaster events such as devastating tornadoes which frankly hit my district. So, uh, and I'm glad to see the notice of funding opportunity announced for the historic preservation fund money last week, but I am a bit frustrated.
▶ 1:03:33It's taken as long uh for NOFO to uh to be published because it's only the first step in the process and these communities need help. So, what's the department's timeline for reviewing these applications and and getting money kind of moving toward these communities? Well, we're we're trying to accelerate where we are. Some of those have recently been uh released. others. Uh we've been in uh working in conjunction with OM and other entities on getting to the next spot and getting those dollars out.
▶ 1:04:03So, well, we I appreciate you taking a personal interest in that. Uh and look, a lot of people working hard to try and get get stuff out the door. We know that. But, uh I just wanted to notice that I've got uh you know, both historic national park areas that have been hit hard. Chickasaw National Recreation Area where we we have some progress moving and I'm appreciative of that. Uh but particularly a little town called Sulfur, Oklahoma, historic downtown area and literally leveled by a tornado.
▶ 1:04:32Uh actually multiple tornadoes in the same night. So uh if you can look at those things, I know other communities and other districts are in the same thing, but just moving it along faster would make a huge difference and appreciate you looking into that if you can and staying on top of it. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you. Before I go to Shelley, I just want to say on the topic that Tom was just talking about with uh Bureau of Indian Education and buildings and reducing the funding for buildings.
▶ 1:05:05I agree with everything you said about finding out why uh these schools aren't performing and what needs to be done to change them and address that. I got no problem with that. In fact, it's it ought to be done. That doesn't change the fact that we're talking about facilities here and facilities across I mean Tom and I have been to as he said many tribes and he said he wouldn't send his kids to some of them. Uh I've often said I wouldn't board my dog overnight at some of them because they're dangerous.
▶ 1:05:32And so that's what this committee has been focused on is trying to make sure that we have the resources to build the schools that these kids need. And as Tom so eloquently said that oftentimes means to those kids how much you think about them and stuff. So, uh, Miss Pingry, thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And, uh, let me just reiterate, so you hear from, uh, you know, both sides of the aisle and and you've heard that we are, uh, and and, um, Representative McComem has been a former chair as well.
▶ 1:06:02And so, uh, we are very united on on this, uh, tribal funding. And I think, uh, that that hits a very sensitive spot on the schools. and we I understand some of the concerns that you've been raised about duplication and a variety of other things about quality of schools, but um funding construction is an ongoing huge issue here. I know I worked on a passi school from the time I got here to many many years trying to make sure that they got it across the finish line and it can take you know decades to get the funding for these schools.
▶ 1:06:31And while as you've all noted there are tribes that have the resources to do amazing things in their own community, many tribes you're just not in that position. So, um, I hope we can restore that funding level and certainly you'll hear from this committee that we're interested in that. And, uh, I wanted to start with a question on, um, it's following up a little bit on both what both my colleagues have mentioned on on how the funding gets spent and allocated.
▶ 1:06:55So, the continuing resolution for 2025 enacted more than two months ago, was enacted more than two months ago, now we're eight months into the fiscal year. And given that timing, it's just critical that the department quickly obligate the appropriated funding. So my example on that is a similar to what uh Mr. Cole was asking about, but it's actually a different pot of money. Um I'm hearing concerns from the main state historic preservation office that they have not received the state-by-state aortionment.
▶ 1:07:21Um nor has the park service issued a a notice of funding opportunity. So, as a result, in the state of Maine, we're facing uh a potential layoff of the fedally funded staff, and Maine is not alone. This manufactured, in my mind, uh funding crisis is being inflicted on all of our states. For example, 12 people have already been laid off in Ohio, and that amounts to about a third of their staff in the state historic preservation office. These offices have an integral role in the advancement of federal projects.
▶ 1:07:49and holding back the funds that Congress appropriated for these office offices means delaying projects including in the oil and gas sector. So I did contact your office about this last week. I'm expecting that you might have an update for me. Do you know the status of these funds? I we're waiting on the aortionment to come but we're pushing hard on trying to get this out because it's as you say there's uh we have every incentive our incentives are in line with yours to get these dollars out the door.
▶ 1:08:19So, I mean, the chair asked you a question earlier about the 2026 budget, and if we uh appropriate money that goes beyond what's in this skinny budget or what we see in the full budget, will you spend the money? You said it's the law. Um the Interior Bill, which is in the CR, contains a provision that requires that amounts appropriated to the Department of Interior, quote, shall be available for obligation and expenditure not later than 60 days after the date of enactment of the act. And as you said, that's the law.
▶ 1:08:47uh OM is not a a portion of the funding. You just said that. Um but we are past the 68 day done and I just want to know the role that you're taking. Are you pushing the OM to appropriate your department's funding? Well, I I didn't bring a stack of uh of uh communication that's gone back and forth, but I would say that would represent that yeah, we're pushing. Okay, pushing is good.
▶ 1:09:13Um, so just from my perspective, if if you don't get this funding, then that is empoundment. It is breaking the law. And I think perhaps on both sides of the aisle, we're feeling very frustrated this administration is not um expeditiously appropriating what we funded.
▶ 1:09:33Um, I guess I would just have to say, you know, and I mentioned to you earlier, there's a lot of frustration here and, you know, Congress has the power of the purse. We we meet in this committee and we do an incredible amount of work, uh, you know, negotiating back and forth on both sides of the aisle to arrive at these numbers and to figure out what should be done and to have this administration just wantingly disregard what we have done and to worry about having to do that in the next 2026 budget.
▶ 1:10:02I would ask, you know, why why do committees meet? Why do we do the work that we're doing if in fact we can't count on the OM to do what is being done? And I know there are layers here. Um, and I really appreciate seeing that you've got a stack of communications because I fully believe you're doing that and I know you have a lot of executive experience. So, I am just encouraging you to put full force of pressure on it to not break the law and to do what's required to do. Thank you.
▶ 1:10:28We'll do and and as a governor, I understand the importance of the state historical preservation offices and the tribal uh historical preservation offices. So, we're we're aligned in in getting appropriated money to people so they can do their jobs. Great. We will look forward to seeing that continue to happen. Um I'll yield back there and I can ask my next question later. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Uh I don't think I've congratulated you yet, Mr. Secretary. So, belated congratulations.
▶ 1:10:57is be careful what you ask for, right? Um I don't think I asked for this, but but I did say yes. So, okay, fair enough. Little did you know. Um can you tell me where you're at in in terms of I'm intrigued by the idea of consolidating federal wildland fire responsibilities. Can you tell me will Boise still be kind of the the the operational center of firefighting under this? And briefly just where we at on on that consolidation?
▶ 1:11:25I think I got the impression it your consolidation going to be ready to go this fire season which is I don't know depending on where you are might be here already but here shortly you know it's yeah the fire season's here already and been working closely with uh uh specifically with uh Brook Rollins uh and USDA uh on this on this plan and I think that the key uh here is building off the successes we have you know the uh the Idaho uh where you know the joint operation right now is the closest
▶ 1:11:55thing we have to to coordination. Uh but we still end up in situations that are uh where resource allocation is affecting our ability to fight fires. I had personal experience of this last October. Uh you know, we had a wildland fire in North Dakota. It was uh happening uh not not completely overlap, but uh not long after the LA fires at 124,000 acres. That's bigger than all the LA fires. uh no one ever heard about it.
▶ 1:12:25Uh we lost two lives. We had a couple of ranchers trying to protect livestock that got uh you know caught in uh in the uh you know the raging speed of a overland prairie wildfire. Very tragic. Uh we knew that it was a high fire risk season. We had our state resources including uh our national guard uh on call in position ready to go. Blackhawk helicopters with uh the ability to do drop buckets uh out trying to, you know, protect folks.
▶ 1:12:54Uh it this started on uh middle of the night on a Friday night and uh Saturday morning at 6:00 a.m. uh myself and the state of North Dakota was calling for federal air support and uh they arrived on Tuesday. We'd been calling called on Saturday called on Saturday afternoon, Sunday, Sunday afternoon, Monday, Monday afternoon, Tuesday.
▶ 1:13:14that entire time I'm fully understand because now Senator Tim Sheehy who was running a uh contract business you know flying aircraft had aircraft sitting on the ground in Montana short distance away and there was never a decision made to distribute aircraft you know for this thing and and where it was the adjacency of the fire to Lake Sakakawia the fact that it was in these tough Badlands canyons that you couldn't get out with fire crews uh they came in with their scoopers you know,
▶ 1:13:44they're loading up a plane in 11 seconds, skimming along the surface, six tons of water, and uh you know, they had this fire out in 4 hours. And and so it's was a dramatic uh uh you know, dramatic example of how a little better coordination of releasing uh resources and making decisions could get us there. And I think that uh so we're we're we're moving ahead with that.
▶ 1:14:07Uh, and I would expect that you'll hear from uh uh a ahead of any legislation, you'll hear uh a joint announcement from Brook Rollins and myself soon about how we're trying to uh implement uh greater coordination in this uh in this uh fire season. Great. I look uh and and we'll be getting back with you in terms of who's the the point in your office just for monitoring that sort of stuff, but it sounds like you've got a good feel for it. Well, we got to start.
▶ 1:14:35I mean, we may in given that this is moving one responsibility from a department to another uh and you're in a position here uh oversee with both we'd want to work closely with this committee to make sure that we get all of the uh you know the appropriations everything figured out. But we think there's this is one of these things where again where if we can uh make better decisions faster and we can save money with better systems on decision- making using every all the current tools.
▶ 1:15:00Uh I I know that uh uh former secretary and congressman Zinci is uh coming from Montana also knows that there is you know tools that were available to him as a Navy Seal 20 years ago that we're not using to protect firefighters on the ground right now.
▶ 1:15:18So, we've got to make sure we equipped everybody with with the with the right tools and give them the right command structure uh and and then uh and then put more firefighters on the front line and less people less people uh you know trying to make manual decisions about where to allocate resources. I appreciate that. Um now I want to move the focus to personnel or that's an old term HR whatever the new term is.
▶ 1:15:42Um there are a few areas uh that affect operations and I think uh we touched when you talk about getting an appraisal for any kind of federal land that means you've killed the idea. And I don't mean that disparagingly. I'm just saying, well, we've only got, you know, this many certified appraisal appraisers and three of them are on death's door and the two that are left are scheduled until, you know, sometime in the next century or something like that.
▶ 1:16:12And and so that's an issue that has been around for a long time. I bring that up. Certified minerals examiners, same thing. And then I also bring it up in in the most recent stuff where when you look at the mission of interior especially in the west where so much of the ground is yours and you talk about just administering that in an everyday sense whether it's you know uh range people or real estate people or anything.
▶ 1:16:39So when the last round of cut cuts comes, at least in the in the parts that I pay attention to, your state and and district offices were already significantly below whatever. Now, I'm not saying whatever is unassailable. It's like, listen, if there are positions being carried that can't be, you know, justified, then quit carrying them. But when you put those cuts on top of a bunch of vacancies, which leads us into what they're getting paid and can they afford to live for all that other sort of stuff.
▶ 1:17:07And I'll just say I hope that that becomes something that we and we've mentioned it to secretaries long before you and it's tough and and and I get that but I think this is an opportunity and I think we've seen it so far for a refocus on the mission of Interior nationwide where it's like hey they're going to need a little more support than oh yeah them too.
▶ 1:17:31So I I say that whether you're talking about native issues or or whatever where it's like I think this committee has has always been so you've got some support there in terms of going you want us to operate efficiently good you want us to op but we also need the ability to operate and those are just a few of the areas where it's like I don't know how you can sit there and hold somebody's feet to the fire when there's a whole bunch of empty desks.
▶ 1:17:56Well, I got this sort of hits on across uh you mentioned uh you know BLM is one of the key things where appraisals they're occurring but you know the the high level thing what we're trying to accomplish in terms of a strategic restructuring would be to get you know more people on the front lines I mean more rangers in the park more you know biologists on the rangeand uh more people doing appraisals on these uh whether you know mining or whether it's a uh you know southern Nevada lands act uh
▶ 1:18:26transfers uh and and I think that there's a big opportunity to do that as we get our hands on the the layers. I mean uh BLM for example has got they have field offices, they have district offices, they have regional offices, they have state offices, and then there's a federal office. And I don't know any, you know, corporation today that's in any in any business, but even if you were even if you were in the timber management business or if you're in the raising business, you know, you wouldn't have five layers between uh you know, headquarters and the front lines.
▶ 1:18:54I mean, with today's systems, you you might have three, uh, but you might wouldn't have five. Uh, so whatever we're doing to try to streamline, we're at the end at the end of the day, we want to end up with more people, more minutes on mission, as we say, more people that are out there getting it done. And then some cases, we just have to change the administrative rules. I mean, I you know, I was in with you in Nevada last uh week. Uh I guess it was Friday Friday.
▶ 1:19:17We were there Friday afternoon uh and meeting with the governor and with uh secretary Turner from HUD and the Southern Nevada Lands Act has been around since Harry Reid was uh in office. Uh and it's you get a very structured process for how we uh move BLM land into uh into other uses uh in southern Nevada. And one of those uses is affordable housing.
▶ 1:19:41And so we were at a project we after our meeting with the round table with all the local we went out to that 18 acres in the administrative rules. It was it's being transferred to uh you know the city of Henderson for a $390 unit $120 million affordable you know uh h housing project at $100 an acre. I mean this is a huge uh you know benefit uh for you know for that project. And then uh representative I said well how fast can they get going?
▶ 1:20:10And they said, "Well, we're waiting for the appraisal." And I said, "It says in administrative rules it's 100 bucks. It's not going to change. It's 100 bucks an acre." They said, "Yes, but we're still required to do an appraisal." And I'm like, "Why are we required to do an appraisal?" Well, because that's also in these rules. So then we have conflicting rules. And then I said, "Well, how long does the appraisal take?" They said, "Well, it could take longer than 6 months, but that's a problem because if it's longer than 6 months, then it's outdated and we have to start over again.
▶ 1:20:33It trips this continuous thing." And you know, these are the things that uh that you know, coming from the private sector, I'm just like I I I get motivated when I hear these things because I'm like, we just have to get rid of all of this. This is this creates more work for the people on the front lines and we get less things done. And and in the end of the day, what we did in North Dakota, in North Dakota, we cut when I took office, we were having huge revenue crisis because because of the uh having a revenue drop.
▶ 1:21:01We had to cut $1.7 billion out of a $6 billion general fund in a little state like North Dakota. 1.7 billion in my first four months, you know, coming from the private sector. All the trains still ran on time. That's was 27% cut. And we did that. And part of it is we we got rid of the things that that were getting in the way of the team members doing the jobs that they wanted to do. People go into government because they want to make a difference. They don't go into government because they want to push paper and use 50-year-old IT systems.
▶ 1:21:31So, so anyway, there's there's a way to end up with more meaningful, purposeful, effective jobs and reduce costs because I've done it. I mean, I mean, I know that's true, but in this case, you're spot on, representative, in terms of the uh around the appraisals and around uh the need for making sure and and I would say you mentioned, you know, Winnamaka, Elco, you know, all these communities where it's hard to staff. uh th those guys are the lifeblood of of our of our agencies, the people that are working in these remote areas.
▶ 1:22:00And we need more of them and we need, you know, frankly, we need less people in Washington DC. The people in Washington DC, when I walked into that building that holds 4,000 people, there was nobody there. I mean, so it's like it's like, you know, they're all working remotely. Uh but they weren't working remotely from Elco, right?
▶ 1:22:16And so it's like let's uh you know let's get we want to get people out you know out on the ground ground doing the job that serves you know the timber industry the grazing industry the mining industry the recreation industry uh you know the wildlife outdoors fish and game industries I mean outdoor recreation is a $1.2 trillion industry we got we're serving them too so we've got there there's big opportunity for us to cut overhead and uh and get more people on the ground. Thank you sir. Yield back Mr. Chairman Carter.
▶ 1:22:47Uh thank you so much uh Secretary for for being here. Uh I want to use my time today to discuss the West's wildfire crisis and how hopefully we can work together to support our wildland firefighters. I know near and dear uh to your heart and invest in the resources we need to confront and deal with these mega fires heads head on. As you know, wildland firefighters risk their lives to keep our communities safe.
▶ 1:23:11But as these fires have become larger, more intense, and more frequent, we're asking more and more of these men and women than ever before, they face extreme conditions, breathing in toxic smoke, enduring temperatures as high as 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit, and often working 18-hour shifts for weeks on end. When tragedy strikes and a firefighter's injured, we owe it to them and their families to provide full support. But right now, only the US Forest Service has a formal uh casualty assistance program.
▶ 1:23:42That means thousands of firefighters under the Department of Interior still don't have access to those same benefits. Uh my bill to fix this that was included in the bipartisan fix our forest act would make sure that all Department of the Interior federal firefighters and their families have access to the support they've earned. Secretary Bergam, do you support establishing a Department of Interior casualty assistance program so every fire federal wildland firefighter is protected if tragedy strikes?
▶ 1:24:10Well, Representative, I would say with, you know, my experience as governor, uh, I had a a commitment that I was never going to commit to support a bill that I hadn't read. Uh and so so I I I won't go that far, but I would say that that uh from an intention standpoint of what you're trying to accomplish, I fully support from an intention. And and there's two pragmatic. One is we do have a moral responsibility to people that are first responders, law enforcement that are, you know, taking risk, the people that are running towards danger instead of away from it.
▶ 1:24:40We've got a real responsibility to support them. And of course, across interior, we've got uh firefighting uh and law enforcement. We have firefighting across BIA. We've got it in national parks. We've got it in BOM. Uh we've got some even in in our wildlife refues. I mean, so we've got that. And as we spoke earlier, then we're, you know, it's under in this budget. It's also combining under a unified command with the Forest Service.
▶ 1:25:04When we're all unified under one command and you've got one group of firefighters that have higher benefits than others, it it it accelerates this transfer like we've seen in law enforcement, which is, hey, I love law enforcement, but I'm going to go to work for the law enforcement agency that has the best protections for my family. Uh, you know, the best pay structure. Uh, we have implemented a base pay increase for firefighters since I've been in office uh already this spring because we were underpaying.
▶ 1:25:31Uh, and then of course we've got to make sure that we got our our systems and policies set up for the people that are so that we're not treating people as seasonal that come back and work for us every single year as a firefighter. I mean, they're not a temporary. They've come back year after year. They do take part of the season off, but then they work their tail off. You know, the other uh months in those fire seasons are getting longer.
▶ 1:25:53So, I absolutely agree with the direction that you're going and I appreciate that you're championing uh the the important and dangerous work that these uh wildland firefighters are doing. Thank you. Uh supporting our wildland firefighters is I think uh extremely bipartisan, something we can all agree on and thank you for your leadership and the work that you've done. Uh it's also, as you said, critical for recruitment because we know we need more of these wildland firefighters.
▶ 1:26:17Uh, one more issue that I think we can find common ground on is that when fires break on federal land, it's often our local fire departments that are the first to respond. They act quickly, decisively, saving lives, protecting property, but when it comes time for reimbursement. Those same departments can sometimes face years of bureaucratic delays from federal agencies like the Department of the Interior and and Fish and Wildlife.
▶ 1:26:40It's unacceptable and it leads communities without the resources that they're that they need to respond to the next fire, especially some of these small volunteer departments where it may be years of their budget that's wrapped up in this bureaucratic process where they're waiting uh time. So, I've introduced uh the Fire Department Repayment Act which streamlines repayment procedures, cuts red tape for local fire departments. It passed the House last Congress and is also included uh in the Fix Our Forest Act.
▶ 1:27:06Uh do you support uh that bill or at least that concept to ensure that local fire departments uh have the resources that they need and they don't have to wait years and years on end to actually get repaid for the work that they did to keep our communities safe? Well, yes, uh represent with the with the same caveat of not having read the bill, but with the concept uh I've lived this uh with small communities in western North Dakota. Uh much of western North Dakota is falls under the US National Grasslands, which of course is part of USDA.
▶ 1:27:35And uh I could just start naming off communities that are uh that were fighting fires, you know, last year that I'm sure haven't been paid yet. This is a uh something we hear about at the state level all the time. And these and you're exactly right, those small communities are almost all volunteer. Uh and these uh fires can completely exhaust their uh their resources. Yeah, I I've heard uh reimbursement for from our state for fighting a a state fire can be weeks or or months.
▶ 1:28:05For the federal government, it can be years and years and years uh for them to to ever actually get the payment that they're owed. We have to fix this. Would love to work with you uh to make that happen and and get this bill signed into law to support our local fire department. So, thank you uh for that and look forward to to working together in the future. And I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. secretary for being here. Um I I read your resume and it's really spectacular.
▶ 1:28:30We've never met before, but uh from your time as governor starting in 2016, you did some remarkable things. You've both uh supported fossil fuels, but you've also supported carbon neutral, which generated $25 billion in private sector investment in your state alone. So, anybody who's protesting your your your pro fossil fuel stance needs to look at your background and and understand that it's far more nuanced and more well-rounded than that. You're also a China hawk, which I greatly appreciate.
▶ 1:28:57And uh the the the need to to mine and process critical minerals in the United States determines whether or not the Chinese surpass us in many sectors, including military or or not. And so I'm glad that you're in charge of you're the energies are as well as minings are. Um, and of course I want to thank you for sending the National Guard from North Dakota down to the warm weathers of uh Texas uh to help us reinforce the border.
▶ 1:29:27Uh, but one of the things that uh we've seen in this committee is when we have tribal days and this year we had a record number of of tribes come because uh Chairman Simpson has made it such a big priority. They have all been worried about cuts to interior and whether or not it's going to affect them or not based on our treaty obligations which is the law to them.
▶ 1:29:49The thing that affects me most in in my questions about uh cuts is uh historically is their law enforcement capability uh based on cultural issues being able to hire folks but also monetary issues being able to afford people that they train to come stick around instead of going to other law enforcement agency. But as as well as the massive amounts of land that they have to cover, they have no air cover. And I'm a naval aviator. Uh and so my question to you is this.
▶ 1:30:19How are we going to help them beat the 6 and get to where they need to be with 2.4 per thousand? But also, is there a way that we can we can get some of our our retired aircraft to them to help them in in both uh emergency response as well as law enforcement? Well, representative, uh, law enforcement in country is a grave concern that I have and, uh, during my time as governor, I was well aware of this issue.
▶ 1:30:45Uh, and and it's a, uh, it's compounding, uh, because I think that the the bad guys know that we're uh, we've got gaps in law enforcement on tribal lands.
▶ 1:30:58And so uh as we as we saw a period of time when we had um all the economics of uh human trafficking, drug trafficking and and fentanyl uh in our country, one of the places that was easier for uh organized crime organizations to to work and operate was in in tribal areas.
▶ 1:31:21Uh we we conducted a uh a joint effort in North Dakota across three of our five tribes with the federal government, FBI, uh State of North Dakota Bureau Crim, Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the State Highway Patrol, local tribal police. Uh a couple years ago, we arrested 55 people uh in one day across three tribes. They were all 55 affiliated with a a gang out of Detroit that was connected to a cartel in Mexico.
▶ 1:31:51And uh and it and it ties back to not only the drug trafficking, but this, you know, horrible issue of there's over 6,000 unsolved cases for missing and murdered indigenous persons. Most of those persons being indigenous women. Uh and we had our uh secretary's tribal uh advisory uh committee a couple weeks ago here. There's 12 regions, two representatives from each. Uh we held that uh in the actually in literally in my office.
▶ 1:32:19moved everything out, brought everybody in, uh were set up in there, and on all 12 regions, uh everybody brought up law enforcement as an issue. Uh ahead of that meeting, we had the family of Emily Pike, uh come in, and this is this case in uh Arizona that is not well understood or well, I think if I've always said, if you have a co-ed that goes missing at spring break, uh it's going to be a 10-p part Netflix series. and we have 6,000 uh missing and murdered indigenous women and you don't even know about it.
▶ 1:32:50Emily Pike is one uh that is as tragic as it becomes uh because uh she was uh uh ended up uh in a after uh having been assaulted uh law enforcement had identified an asalent. Uh he was released after 3 days. Uh she was considered the victim. uh she was, you know, 13 or 14 years old, sent to a foster home, uh ran away from the foster home.
▶ 1:33:18The foster home didn't tell her parents till she'd been reported her missing 5 days later. And uh and then uh you know, search begins as it often does and then ends tragically and they found her dismembered in garbage bags, you know, along the side of a road as she must have been trying to make her way back from the foster home 80 miles back to the reservation where her family was. And so this is it doesn't get more tragic. Uh but but we brought uh Cash Patel over to Interior.
▶ 1:33:44He sat uh with me with the Emily Pike family and the uh and then uh he stayed and met with the uh the the secretar's committee and I was told by virtually every tribal leader there that that was the first time that they had a meeting with the head of the FBI. Uh he is he has dedicated 60 FBI already. He's announced that 60 FBI personnel are going to be deployed uh on Indian country cases.
▶ 1:34:10Uh I talked to him yesterday uh at the White House and he said that he hopes that he can get more resources, you know, placed it. So this is this isn't just about a yes, we need BIA, law enforcement, we need upgraded retention facilities, we need a bunch of things on the local level, but it is a federal uh this is you know I and I again as a governor I can tell you very frustrating when these things would happen that we could not legally in many cases deploy state resources to help the tribes. We did. We volunteered.
▶ 1:34:39We said we'll be out. We'll help on searches. Uh all of that. But from a jurisdictional standpoint, this is this is federal ground and federal law enforcement. And we got to bring all federal law enforcement. And I would say it's your acknowledgement on the border uh and down in your state, but 41% of the southwestern border is interior land. 41%.
▶ 1:35:01And so, you know, so this touches law enforcement across not just, you know, BIA, BOM, national parks, uh, touches touches everybody and and so, uh, law enforcement is, uh, something we're spending a lot of time focused on right now. Thank you. Thank you. And I' I'd just like to ask, let's get them some let's get them some air support. Mr. Chairman, I yel back. Well, and thank you for your service as well.
▶ 1:35:23But a great idea on the air support because in these big areas, whether it's unmanned or manned, uh this is uh can be super helpful tools and we've got the technology to deploy in these large areas. We need to do it. Thank you. And just to follow up if I could on that with these, we held some hearings on murdered and missing indigenous peoples.
▶ 1:35:45And the challenge we have is is after listening to all the testimony, we had the FBI come in and testimony uh give us testimony from the agents and stuff. Some of the problems we found is that if you have a reservation the size of Connecticut and you got two officers on patrol, you get a domestic violence call, it's two hours later before you can get there, it's over. So, we've got to do something about that and that's what we're trying to address.
▶ 1:36:12But the biggest issue is jurisdictional issues between the state, the feds, the the local law enforcement. Somehow we got to resolve. If you ever read a chapter on on Indian rights and and so forth, when you get to law enforcement, it is crazy because it is different if you are an Indian on a reservation or if you're an Indian off a reservation or if you are a non-tribal member that's an Indian on that reservation. And it becomes a joke trying to figure it out. Anyway, Miss McColl, thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:36:41share and thank you for um the discussion on um our tribal sisters who have suffered. Uh Secretary Bergen, I had a a kick off the defense meeting, but I did read your testimony. It's good to see you.
▶ 1:36:57As the um being from family from Oaks, North Dakota, spending time in in Willist and uh Sydney, Montana, I know where the trains run on time and where they change the time in Um through no fault of your own, uh uh we're working with a great disadvantage here, uh because we're trying to discuss the budget without any details. You're still trying to put it together.
▶ 1:37:24We did get a skinny budget and then it has a 30.5% cut to the Department of Interior which and I think speaking for myself being a former chair with with other former chairs sitting here we think deserves a whole lot more money for the work and the job that we have to do.
▶ 1:37:42So, so to see a cut is really disappointing um for us who are trying to do things many of the things that we talked about here, schools, law enforcement, clean water, um having the personnel out there to work locally. So, um right now you're also um finalizing plans to lay off thousands of employees through the department. Um we're still trying to figure out what Doge did do, didn't do, can do, cannot do.
▶ 1:38:09So, you've got a lot on your plate trying to figure out what we do to keep uh public employees where they need to be, providing the services that our constituents uh are demanding from us. Uh cutting park operations, you know, well, you mentioned it, fewer park rangers to keep our visitors safe. Uh to do the education that we need to do with uh the next generation about how important our natural resources are.
▶ 1:38:35And then there's just less maintenance of trails and national landmarks and that that people go to visit uh the great state of North Dakota. I'll I'll throw South Dakota in there just just to keep everything good in the five state area ju just to see what what what's happening. And it's it's those personal connections. One of the things that I found really alarming is the 39% cut to the ge uh US Geological Survey. That's the scientific backbone of your department.
▶ 1:39:01the flow of water, water that sustains life, water that that sustains our economy, whether it's crops, and then water, as we well know with what happened in Fargo, Morehead, it's still fresh in everybody's mind if you're around there, what happens when there's floods. So, um I hope um Mr. Chair, that as we have a little more money coming our our way that we don't forget the the US Geological Survey.
▶ 1:39:28Well, they they propose we dispose um and then and so this is perfect. Leads into what Chairman Cole was saying about u making sure that there's money for historic preservation. Um so the cuts of uh $900 million from tribal nations public safety school infrastructure. You heard it. I just I I I just have to reiterate we're very very concerned about that. Um so as I said, we haven't seen much of your budget.
▶ 1:39:55So, let me turn to something that isn't budgetary, which I normally don't do in this committee. Um, I'm going to have my staff hand you a letter. This letter was sent on April 8th by me and other members of the Minnesota delegation. It is and and I I can imagine how many letters you have and maybe this one wasn't at the tiptop of the first pile that that that was on your desk.
▶ 1:40:20The Mississippi uh National River Recreation Area was established by Congress in 1988 as a partnership park, Minres, and the Park Service. They work with 25 local governments, state and tribal nations, and other partner organizations to conserve, interpret, and manage 72 mile stretch of America's greatest river, the Mississippi River. Also a working river.
▶ 1:40:42It incorporates local parks like the Bruce Vento Nature Sanctuary named after my friend and predecessor who sponsored the minra organization. Earlier this year, Elon Mus directed you uh GSA to cancel the leases for the park's operational headquarters in its only visitor center located in the lobby of the Science Museum of Minnesota.
▶ 1:41:04Roughly 230,000 visitors last year learned about the biology, the history, and the culture of the Mississippi River from park rangers through interactive exhibits, including, and I threw a couple of photos in there, like a flying eagle, and how to tie off a barge. Something I didn't learn how to do growing up in South St. Paul in the Mississippi River, but I can tell you it's hard work from trying to do it at the at the interpretive center.
▶ 1:41:28Minra is the only uh park service unit with a mission of interpreting the Mississippi River, our nation's river that everybody knows how to spell in this country and people all around the world know how to spell it. The Great River's ecological and economic importance to our nation. But here's the other thing. Not only do a lot of urban visitors visit that park, but people come from all over the five-state area, as you know, to go to that history center.
▶ 1:41:58That's where park rangers are telling them about grasslands, theater, the Roosevelt National Park, um what's going on in Michigan, in the Great Lakes area. So, it is a huge bang for the National Park Services buck to be in that in that in in the science museum. So, um, we understand that the min releases are no longer on DOA's list, but we haven't received any official response to my letter yet.
▶ 1:42:27So, can can we talk about this some more? Can we meet with other members uh on this before any further decisions are made about Minro's future and losing that one interpretive center in the Twin Cities in the you know because it's it's it's the Dakotas, it's Iowa, it's our it's our cousins from Canada who come down there all in there being exposed to the park service. I love Minra, but I love the park service even more.
▶ 1:42:56So, can we work with your office on this? Well, yes, we can. and your information matches mine, which is that these two leases that you're discussing in the letter are off the list. And so I'm anticipating that uh we'll have communication confirming that with you. We've tried to also work both in the St. Core Scenic River and on the Mississippi River to try to get not grandiosa monuments to anybody, but to have more um park service interpretation and that.
▶ 1:43:25And we also need to find a better lease space for um um for Minra and that that that's more on the river. The last thing I would add is when we're talking about law enforcement picking things up. I just for the record want to say how grateful I am to um the St. Croy Sheriff's Department for the work that they do on the St. Croy River because between us and Wisconsin, there's no other law enforcement u first response out there for boers on the Scenic River. So we try to be a good partner.
▶ 1:43:54We look forward to being an even better partner with you in the future. Well, I appreciate that. And I would say when our kids were younger, our favorite uh camping spot in Minnesota was the uh headarters of the Mississippi up at a taska. Beautiful place. And uh and when they were younger, they've been to this science museum. So, I've been there with them as well. And I've also boated on the in the recreation area. I've got a sister and a c a nephew that live in the Twin Cities. So, I understand exactly what you're talking about.
▶ 1:44:22I think the larger principle for this committee when we're saying we need we need more money for law enforcement, need more money for school construction that one thing we maybe need less money for is federal office space. I mean we have got so much office space in this country. Uh and in some cases we need it. some places it's a prime location like in this case in the middle of the science museum.
▶ 1:44:43But we've got a we and and particularly with the capability for people to effectively work remotely or if we want to get more people out on the front lines, you know, more people on a patrol boat, less people sitting in an office. Uh we have to look at that balance and and I think that it's uh same for every state. I saw this in North Dakota. I mean a little state like North Dakota when I came there I said how much how much space do we have? Nobody knew. It wasn't on a balance sheet. Turns out we had 24 million square feet of space in little old North Dakota. And I'm like, do we need that much? No.
▶ 1:45:10Well, if you can get rid of consolidate leases, renegotiate leases, do things like that. Uh, and in many cases, uh, the federal government right now with the collapse in demand for commercial space coming out of COVID, uh, the fact that if things were on that list, it didn't mean that we were getting rid of it. It meant is there an opportunity to renegotiate a list? When we do renegotiate a lease, when we do that, that frees up the dollars to spend on the stuff that all of us want to do.
▶ 1:45:34So, it is a uh it is smart for for every department to be taking a look at their cost of space because that's probably an area where we can save without affecting services to our citizens. It's Minneapolis St. Paul, but I'm from St. Paul and we're here to help you. Okay. Find space. Thank Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here.
▶ 1:45:59This feels really up close and personal sitting on the same side of the table as Uh, as the secretary of inter interior, you manage a lot of the land in my state. Um, Utah's majority public land and and you manage more land than any other entity in the state. And you you may have more big national parks in your district than anybody I've met, too, which I think I do. And we're proud of them. Um, but you and I don't have any choice but to work together.
▶ 1:46:27I know you know our governor really well. Um, I know you know these issues, but everything I'm going to ask you today is going to come down to some version of the same question. Will you work with us to make sure that the way the Department of Interior manages the resources in Utah is good for Utons? Uh, a lot of times we get drowned out in big national conversations about what happens to the resources in our state. So, please work with us on managing resources in Utah.
▶ 1:46:56So, water, Utah uses less water per capita today than it did 20 years ago. Um, even while we've been one of the fastest growing states in the country for that entire time, are you confident that the department's budget will continue to help states like Utah lead out on conservation? Well, first thing I I do want to say is uh yes, you've got a a commitment uh because part of our job and our mission in Interior relates to the the lands.
▶ 1:47:25And so then states like Nevada, states like uh Idaho, states like Utah, Alaska that have got such a high proportion, I I mean part of what everybody on my team knows is we've got to be working more closely with these states.
▶ 1:47:38I mean, that's just essential for us to do it because part of the way that we're going to navigate through not only the uh uh protecting and and preserving these, you know, great resources, but also to make sure that we're not doing both overreach or overlap because that's part of where the cost comes in is when we're doing something that at US Fish and Wildlife that that Utah's Fish and Wildlife is already doing.
▶ 1:48:02you know, if we're doing, you know, pick pick go down the line, but you know, as a as a governor, you know, every every a everything that I've got the governor of all these states also has and I know that because I was on the other side of the overreach for eight years and so that overreach and then the o overlap is sometimes we've got uh two agencies coming at Utah. I mean, we might might have BLM, Forest Service, uh you know, coming at the same rancher sometimes, you know, with two different sets of rules. That's this overlap.
▶ 1:48:30So when we take a look at overlap and overreach, there's big opportunities for efficiencies and better results for states and for citizens and land owners and recreators and hunters and fishermen. So yeah, it's a it is central to what we're trying to accomplish is what you just asked for. So we're we're completely aligned on that. Thank you. That is really good to hear. Continuing on water, can I say one thing on on water though? First of all, the fact that Utah uses less water and has had the incredible population growth uh that you've had is remarkable.
▶ 1:48:59And I think when we, you know, we're heading into this really important discussion, uh I'm sure this committee knows better than anybody on Capitol Hill that 2026 is the year that the uh you know, all of the compacts have got to be finished by on the Colorado River. So, we've got I got 14 senators and lots of representatives and seven governors, you know, calling me since the day I got in office. I mean, this is a big big issue.
▶ 1:49:23And uh and certainly as we look at that, I mean, one of one of the inspirational models is that you a place like Utah can have big population growth and actually use less water. I mean, that's that's the hope for all of us with the water challenges we have in the West. So, way to go Utah in terms of innovation on on conservation of water. Thank you. We're really proud of that. So, I appreciate you recognizing it.
▶ 1:49:46Um, and one of the things that's happened as we've been doing that is state and local leaders in Utah have implemented a comprehensive uh, water conservation plan and invested serious money and dedicated staff and resources to addressing the challenges of rapid population growth. Um, and when we've worked with the federal government, the funding for water conservation disproportionately goes to other states.
▶ 1:50:10Um, and so will you work with us to prioritize funding for shovel ready projects in Utah where we are we are growing and we're implementing a comprehensive plan. We're doing all the things that that you would want us to be doing as a state. Yes. And I of course I have to look at the uh I can't commit to uh projects just like I can't commit to bills I haven't read. But I I I it's exciting that there's uh more good stuff on deck.
▶ 1:50:36Uh and of course uh I'm uh I'm very excited that uh Andrea Travnik uh who was worked at Interior uh prior and who is u uh has has a uh a PhD that she earned in part while working at a uh inside of a national park uh and is also uh we recruited her back to North Dakota and she we created a new position for her statewide. She was the the director of water resources statewide managing billions of dollars of projects. Great experience.
▶ 1:51:06uh with all the international challenges we've got with Canada. Red River flows north, the Sers River comes out of Canada, goes back into Canada. Uh and then the Missouri River uh is different than the Colorado, but it's uh we're familiar with those upstream downstream things. She was at the center of all that the last four years, and now she is uh gone through going through the Senate process to be the the head of of uh water and science. And so she's going to be a key partner in driving this.
▶ 1:51:33I mean, we've got really uh one of the most qualified people to help lead this discussion. Uh somebody from the west who understands uh both the upstream and the downstream concerns and uh and and she she's going to do a fantastic job on helping to mediate through the seven states to get us to a good spot. Good. As a fellow westerner and as a fellow water nerd, I look forward to working with her. Yeah, we'll have to make sure you get you two uh connected. She definitely she would appreciate that title. All right.
▶ 1:52:02um our my local elected officials are always concerned with federal land management. Um because of the high percentage of federal land we have in the state, second only to Mr. Ammed state. Um our my counties and cities have to work with federal agencies to maintain roads, fight fires, write long-term plans, plan power ingress and egress to their cities.
▶ 1:52:26Um what is your plan as the secretary to strengthen those partnerships with the local elected officials who represent the people who live just completely interconnected with public land? Well, I think we have to build we've got said local offices for all these different uh bureaus within and part of what we're trying to do is bring a focus back to making sure we've got the state relationships there.
▶ 1:52:54And then and then obviously as uh representative Ammedday has already seen I mean we're not shy about calling up a governor and saying hey get all your people in a room and we're coming out and we want to listen to everybody and and uh as we did I mean we had a great roundt I think it was close to 90 minutes uh of you know hearing from all the people uh that from across the state of Nevada and so I expect you'll see more of us doing more of that. Uh but for me uh the governor's is also a key place to start.
▶ 1:53:23I I had an opportunity to be vice chair and chair of western governors. That's a bipartisan uh group. It is I I think the most effective bipartisan group in the country. And what binds all the western governors together are the issues that this committee talks about. It's water, its tribes, it's it's uh infrastructure, uh it's it's growth, it's the interaction with federal lands.
▶ 1:53:45And so there wasn't a a a meeting I went to uh with the western governors and there wasn't anything that the staff of Western Governor worked on that isn't almost identical to this cuz we had wildfire on our on our agenda every year for the you know the eight years that I was part of that organization. We had water on our agenda every year for you know all the eight years and so these multi-state working across multi-state key and I think for us uh because I've got existing relationships with all the governors that's one of the places we're going to start and you've got and you have great leadership in Utah.
▶ 1:54:15I think Spencer Cox is one of the best. I do think your relationships with the governors are going to be invaluable in this job. I'm excited to have. And not that Greg Janforte and Brad Little and Sheriff Joe, I mean, they're all great out there in the West. I don't want to pick favorites. We love all of our children out there, but uh we're we're fortunate to have good, strong leaders across the West. Sure. None of us have favorites, but I'm glad our governor is your favorite.
▶ 1:54:40Um and and the state and the counties in Utah have invested a lot of time and money into writing comprehensive resource management plans so that we can be good partners between the federal government, state, and local governments. And I just hope that your departments will prioritize working with them and treat it as an actual partnership and not a boxchecking exercise. And it sounds like you're already prepared to do that. Well, we have to.
▶ 1:55:04And I think one of the things that for having been on the receiving end of some of those RMPs at the state level, uh, is that it there that didn't happen. I mean, there was and and even as recently as me taking this job when I first got in, I mean, I heard from multiple Western governors that said in the the tail end of the last administration, you know, they were ba basically in a thing, you know, quick sign this R&P before you leave office and if you know, and then you read the fine print, but if you if they'll give you concessions if you sign it, but then if they signed it, then
▶ 1:55:34they would have uh not been allowed to challenge it through any process going forward. I'm like, what's that all about? I mean, it's like, you know, either we agree or we don't agree. It's not like let's do coercion at the end of a term to try to get states to sign on and two states signed on and about six or eight didn't on, you know, one of those RMPs. But that's not the way you do this. You got to have the local input. You got to have support and and in many cases uh the the the management should be happening at a local level.
▶ 1:56:00I mean it's not it's again it's this thing you know you want to save money in interior I mean then delegate some of this power to these great state agencies that are already out there that have all the relationships we don't need to be doing the same thing the states are doing this is music to my ears thank you um I'm and by the way you know we have a the the head of fish and game in Wyoming Brian Nezvic is coming on board he's making his way through the process so again part of my commitment to implement this is getting people
▶ 1:56:30from western states to actually serve as the the heads of these uh u bureaus inside of interior because they they like me were on the like on the receiving end of some of this stuff and they're going to know exactly uh how to identify the overlap and the overreach and help us streamline I feel like I'm probably abusing my time at this point so I'll hurry through two questions um lease sales the last administration blatantly ignored mandates to do lease sales will you with us on making sure
▶ 1:57:00we're producing energy. Yes. Uh blatantly ignored is actually a is more polite than it needs to be. They they were blatantly breaking the law. North Dakota was one of the states that sued the federal government and we won because it was the first administration since Harry Truman that didn't hold the legally required lease sales every quarter. They held up 735 lease sales. All of that is revenue to the American people that was being held up.
▶ 1:57:29uh and uh you know some of that started and four years later some of it was still in court. We're still battling uh over that but I mean no we will follow the law. We're going to hold these sales uh and we'll do it uh as required. Thank you. Last thing, wild horses. It's a regional problem. Um it's one that Utah has been leading out on for a long time. It's one that this committee's worked really well together on. I'm sad that Miss McCollum's gone because I'm going to give her a shout out for being really good about working with us on wild horses, but the problem just keeps growing and growing.
▶ 1:57:59Um, will you work with us on finding long-term solutions to this problem that just never seems to get solved and never seems to go away? I don't need a solution right now. Just I'm just asking for a commitment to keep working on this moving forward.
▶ 1:58:12Yes, you we you can you can have that guarantee because uh you know unconstrained wild horses and burrows are causing more damage to the grasslands than any other species and uh we we've got to have we have to have a we have to have a solution so that they're they're causing damage and we're spending over hund00 million trying to manage it and we're and we're not we're not being effective in how we're managing. I'm glad to know you're up to speed on the issue. Y hopefully we can find some solutions and with that Mr.
▶ 1:58:40chair chairman, I will finally yield back. Maybe not. He's not listening. I can keep filibustering. Mr. Zinci, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and uh thank you for stepping up the plate again. Uh Mr. Secretary, uh John Wesley Pal, I think, said it best. The expansion of the West depends on water. That's why in Montana, whisy's for drinking and water's for fighting. So, uh Mr. Secretary, I I I missed the the uh beginning of the of the hearing. I apologize.
▶ 1:59:08Uh but you do have the authority required to execute land changes and divesting of tracks of land to alleviate the checkerboard system and some of the problems out west. Yes. And we talked about this a little earlier, but we've got some tools and if we find as we get further into this that we need more authorities, I've committed to work with this committee to to uh make sure that we can uh optimize uh land transfers with states or tribes uh as necessary.
▶ 1:59:37And the president gave you an executive order to make sure that you're in secretary uh of a do just that. Is that correct? Well, the the executive order was with HUD uh versus AG. Uh certainly we got a good working relationship with Brook Rollins, but on the executive order was specifically to try to address the issue of uh of housing and uh and and with that we had you know we did a u a study similar to the great example we have on the Southern Nevada Lands Act where there was a mechanism
▶ 2:00:08that's already in place but taking a look and across the I mentioned at the beginning of 480 million acres just in in interior there's another 200 million acres in forest service which we haven't examined But if you take a look at that, a lot of that is in remote places. Only about uh 150,000 acres of that federal land is within uh 3 miles of a of a a uh a city. And that would be the most likely eligible piece.
▶ 2:00:35And so there is a teeny teeny, you know, less than 1% of that public land that like the Southern Nevada Lands Act that could help alleviate, but it could be a real factor because land costs in places, you know, like Nevada, like Utah and others where we've got fast growing metros are landlocked.
▶ 2:00:53But it's it's not a uh it's not a solution for affordable housing in all 50 states because as I said like in the eastern part of the US we've got we have really no federal land uh to help with a with a house affordable housing out west it's it's a part of the solution and you and it seems like you you and the Trump administration are committed to helping those communities municipalities that are surrounded by federal lands to make sure you address housing public infrastructure needs. Is that is that what I'm hearing? You're committed to do that?
▶ 2:01:21Well, we are and and uh and part of that is uh also making sure that in the case of southern Nevada, there's a specific law that's been passed that we have to follow. But in other places where we can do it, we want to try to find that right mix of that multiple use thing of of uh whether it's for housing, whether it's for uh give back to a state, to a tribe, whether it's for, you know, creating uh you know, local park access activities.
▶ 2:01:45But yeah, it's it's it's using it's using the the land in a way that is achieves the missions that we're against. And I think we can, you know, absolutely do that. It it's just different. The big landlock states are are a in a different world than a state that might have, you know, I mean, we have some states that have 3.5% federal land. I mean, this is a conversation they've never had or never thought about. But if you've got 60 70 80% federal land, man, you some of the people are on you're on this committee because of that reason.
▶ 2:02:15It's probably why you signed up for this because it's like it's such an issue. And my my colleague from Utah and Nevada on on my right and left. Uh can I have your commitment that you prioritize uh Utah and Nevada in your pursuit because it seems like a lot of the tension is is is just that if you kind of make a commitment you prioritize uh their needs and those local Absolutely.
▶ 2:02:38But I'd like to include Alaska and Idaho on there too because those are other ones on the top thing and uh you know Wyoming is you know 40 plus% uh you know they're they're they're coming down the list but yeah we've got uh we we've got some challenges and and the West is growing fast. I mean it's growing fast and we don't want to be I mean we were in that uh in southern Nevada the median price of a home in Nevada is 480,000 bucks right now. Part of that's because you can't find a plot of land to build a house on anymore. in Montana.
▶ 2:03:07We are saying the first two years of Yellowstone was filmed in Utah. So, please please visit Utah. Uh yeah, also, Mr. Secretary, how important is it for tribal consultation as you go through these land exchanges because you know there's areas that with the Pyutes, you have the Utes, you have a number of tribes. Uh how important is it to go through the tribal consultation as as as you look at these properties? Well, I think it's critical because it's generally in the law, but then if you don't do that, then you end up in the courts.
▶ 2:03:36Then nothing gets transferred anyway. I mean, so that's the that's the part of, you know, doing it right and doing it well upfront is you can actually speed up the pro. That's my my experience from North Dakota uh on that. But that's a uh uh I think it's something that Interior's uh committed to across all of our all of our agencies. And it's not just the check a box. It's like you can end up with better solutions. And I also I'm also committed to consulting with, you know, local officials.
▶ 2:04:06I mean, the counties, the ranchers, I mean, every every, you know, the people that live there. I mean, this is like get input from the people that live there. That matters. And and the process when you do a land exchange or transfer of land, you do look at the local the communities, you talk to the state, you make sure there's concurrence or at least you're you're aware of it.
▶ 2:04:23Then you look at the tribal consultation and then I assume you look at the land itself whether you're going to transfer surface subsurface you look at the water that process uh can you in a in a you know briefly could you kind of explain where your where your process is and how how you approach it?
▶ 2:04:41Well, again, understand that I'm just over 100 days into my term here, but we the the best example I have is the one I shared earlier with Utah where we successfully transferred you know state and federal land almost 200,000 acres going each way and uh all the mechanisms were in place uh you know to make to make that happen. Uh I think that in the case of a state you might consider uh transferring subsurface as well of it.
▶ 2:05:08But if it was going to be for non you know any non-public use I think it would be in the interest of the of of the public from a financial standpoint to retain retain the uh the minerals uh underneath that because as we know today there's uh opportunities for uh there's opportunity for recognizing the value from that even while retaining retaining it. So, I would be I think we'd want to make sure that we're looking carefully at those opportunities.
▶ 2:05:36And uh and and and lastly, I just want to say if there's anything that we can do uh with on in Congress, you know, please, we're we're we're anxious to work with you on it. There's a lot of problems out west. A lot of the anger in the west has been mismanagement. I kind of give the example of you if you have a hotel, you don't like the management, don't sell the hotel, but get do management. Yeah.
▶ 2:05:56So, I seem like you're you're committed to look at the the management side of it and and make sure we we undo some of the anger and hostility uh particularly out out west where people live in communities. They see great opportunity to to have a quality of life by by using the resources, but they seem to be locked out. They're locked out on the basic mining, on basic logging, on basic grazing, etc., etc. So, thank you for your service and we look forward to working with you.
▶ 2:06:25And I would add to that list on hunting and fishing because I mentioned earlier this $1.2 trillion. We have we are going through a review. We we think there's an opportunity for us to expand hunting and fishing access on hundreds and hundreds of of uh parcels of federal land both in you know BLM and across US fish and wildlife refues. Uh some of those of course restrict uh you know any kind of activity if they're a uh you know a wildlife preserve. But there are other places where we can open open more things for for hunting and fishing.
▶ 2:06:55And I think that's great for that's great for state economies. It's great for local economies. I mean, that that's a that's a it's a it's a big business and it's one of the multiple uses of public land. And we want to make sure that we're uh uh being smart about getting as much land back and available for hunting and fishing and every form of recreation that we can. And Mr. For the record, I do recognize that North Dakota has better bird hunting than Montana. With that, I yield. Oh, that's kind of like sucking up.
▶ 2:07:23Yeah, it's called the Mr. Secretary, do you have something I've never heard from South Dakota, by the way, but I appreciate that. I didn't say South Dakota. I said North Dakota. I know all the bird hunters in Idaho that used to hunt fest now go to North Dakota. Uh, do you have a hard stop? I do not. I think there's a few more questions that most of us would like to ask. Let me ask a couple. And I don't know if they're really questions. I guess they are. Skinny budget proposes a 1.2 billion cut to the National Park Service.
▶ 2:07:50Of that cut, 900 million is for the operations and maintenance of the 433 National Park units across the country. To justify this reduction, the skinny budget says that you are going to shift the responsibility of managing some of these units to the states. Are we going to see a list of the parks that we are considered uh transferring to the states? And have we been in contact with any governors to see what they think about this?
▶ 2:08:16I don't first let me make a clarification which is there's I think zero intention of transferring any actual national parks. I mean the 64 crown jewels that we have uh that's there's zero thought about that. But what is little well known is that there is uh over 400 other locations that the National Park Service manages.
▶ 2:08:42Uh these could be a uh you know a birthplace of a uh of a president uh you know like the Roosevelt uh in the middle of New York City that's just a standalone building uh that also needs deferred maintenance and repair. Uh it could be a a battlefield site uh someplace. uh it, you know, it could be, again, these are places that people would be shocked to find out are managed by the the National Park Service because they're not thought of as being part of the National Parks.
▶ 2:09:12So I think the intention of the of the budget proposal is that uh Interior working with you would take a look at all of this and say hey are some of these things that are barely visited in remote locations that require uh all the overhead of federal government you know they want to do a project they've got to go through all the federal contracting you have to do all these things that they have to do you know puts a huge burden on these small you know places many of which have no ability even to charge admission I mean so they're just cost centers is what they
▶ 2:09:42are. And uh there and I know from that some of these existed in North Dakota. And as governor, we might have said, "Hey, if you want to uh you know, turn over the uh you know, Knife River Indian Villages archaeological site to the state of North Dakota, it would fit super well inside of this." And we might then say, "Hey, we could also, you know, we could we could put some resources. This would be a great place. We could add a campground. We could add resources. It's close to another state park.
▶ 2:10:09We could do all this." So I think it's again a case by case by case basis but this would be taking a look at that you know the tail end of the curve on things because I I think there was there has been an accumulation over time of hey can we get a can we get you know and whether it's a a powerful person in Congress that says hey I want this thing to be a a federal resource is not for all the priorities we've talked about here whether it's you know wildland or bie or law enforcement whatever I mean these these cost centers are
▶ 2:10:39all cutting into the ability to do that. And I don't think they're I I think they could be well served, sometimes better served from a budget standpoint, uh working with our states in partnership as Representative Mallaloy was talking about. I mean, hey, like let's work together and find out where's the best place for for us to put some. So that would if if it's in the budget, it's going to have to start with a process that hasn't even initiated yet to take a look at what would be possible and who'd be interested because we don't want to hand over resources to states that aren't going to take care of stuff.
▶ 2:11:08But yeah, some people might say, "Yeah, we'd love that." Every year since I've been in Congress, there's always been proposals that to do something, some historic site or whatever, and they want the National Park Service to take care of it. And we just keep expanding what is in under the control of the National Park Service, which is a concern. But the crown jewels are the crown jewels. And as we said in your office, let's not screw up our national parks because that's something the American people will never forgive us for. Yeah. One other question.
▶ 2:11:35Can I offer one other piece on this which is related I mean we're we're building a presidential library and I say we because the state of North Dakota was involved in providing the initial part of the initial incentive but it's a private sector opportunity. They're building a presidential library for the Roosevelt at the entrance of the Roosevelt National Park. The only park that's named after an individual out of the 64 crown jewel parks. You know that's that project has raised over $300 million of private capital, you know, through a brand new foundation.
▶ 2:12:04And we have other foundations that are raising all kinds of money. The Roosevelt's birthplace was operated by a foundation until, as you just described, somewhere, you know, 30 years ago, someone says, "Oh, the park service should take it over." Well, when the park service took it over, that's when the deferred maintenance started to occur. That's when the underfunding started to occur. That's when people stopped holding events in that house that would have been revenue generating uh and doing all that. And uh you know, those folks that are working there, they could be working for a foundation. I mean there I I just was toured there a couple week ago.
▶ 2:12:34There are people there that worked there for 30 years. They know everything you need to know. They're amazing. Great. Let them have them work for a foundation. And and so it's not just states, but in the right in the right cases where we've got, you know, Gettysburg, you know, Gettysburg battlefield, right in the middle of that battlefield, there's a carveout of private land, and that's a private foundation that built that hundred million dollar visitor center. There's never going to be money from the federal government to build that, but now they've got an amazing thing.
▶ 2:12:58So, if we want to tap into the private sector dollars, there's also an opportunity on on the historic sites, not parks, but on the historic sites to get people that care deeply about some of these places to get private sector partnerships going deeper than we have. Okay. As you know, the 25 uh fiscal year budget was the last year of funding for the Legacy Restoration Fund, which was created by the Great American Outdoors Act that President Trump signed into law during his first term.
▶ 2:13:26Purpose of the fund is to address priority deferred maintenance needs in all public lands, but especially the National Park Service. The five uh the first five years of the legacy restoration fund is a great investment in tackling this deferred maintenance, but there's still a $23 billion in deferred maintenance across the park service. Do you believe the continued investment in addressing these deferred maintenance needs at our parks and public lands should be a priority? Yes. Okay.
▶ 2:13:54And and I can tell you just add one piece of color to support your committee's work. We we did this in North Dakota across university buildings and state buildings and looked at the whole thing and we said we got to do a comprehensive assessment of where we are on this deferred maintenance number because I wanted to ground it and make sure it was a real number. But then as you would know and then it also states have got deferred maintenance on roads, right? And we have them on runways.
▶ 2:14:19I mean, so the whole idea across all the spending that occurs with a lot of federal money that flows down through states is it's not how much, but it's when. I mean, when we spend the money to fix a road when it's in stage three or a building, it's at stage three. Because stage four is, you know, stage four is it's it's over the hill and it's going to cost twice as much. Got to replace. Stage five is I got a hole in the roof that's leaking and the windows are out.
▶ 2:14:43But if you come in and you do that deferred maintenance that by the tail end of stage three, you can do it for pennies on the dollar versus when you get into roof replacement or runway replace. We have to redo the whole thing. So we just come in with we end up spending all this money and we spend it too late. We got to get on it. We got to get on these things sooner. And we get on them sooner, we'd be able to handle the whole list of projects.
▶ 2:15:05But if everything's already fallen into class 4 or class 5 deterioration, then you're you're just man, we're wasting the taxpayers money. So, but it's at some point to get there, you got to step up and say we're going to we're going to solve the problem. And it's either like I said, either it's private capital, state capital, or us spending money further upstream. But I'm I'm all for deferred maintenance because deferred maintenance eats you alive when you just keep adding and adding when you keep adding cost without adding revenue, you know, to these systems.
▶ 2:15:35Uh, I've always been a fan of a saying that said, uh, when ideas knock on your door, open the door, invite them in, and treat them royally, for you never know which one will be the king. That's kind of the way it is with the project proposal. There's a lot of proposed changes in here. I'm not going to ask you about wildland firefighting services, but I'm open to the idea. I and open to the idea of should Forest Service actually be in the Department of Interior?
▶ 2:16:00It's a question we've debated many times around here, but uh I want to know more about it, what the advantage is to doing, uh uh the changes in wildfire fighting that's being proposed in this budget. We'll have this discussion as we move ahead with trying to put a bill together about what's the best way to do it and are we trying to do it too rapidly before we're seeing how it's going to look down the road. So anyway, I appreciate that.
▶ 2:16:25I I would I would say that uh Chairman Westerman and Senator Shehy Westerman being the only forester that I'm aware of in the entire uh Congress and Sheihy who's come directly from a firefighting background. Those two are both uh been working hard uh on this idea and I I would uh I would if you I encourage the committee to speak with them if they haven't. Okay. Uh Jim Ris, the senator from Idaho, al also has a degree in forestry. Perfect.
▶ 2:16:55Practiced it, but he's a good. We got Yeah, he's good guy. Uh, Miss Pingry, thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, and thank you very much for giving us a little extra time. I know you've been here for quite a long time and appreciate that. And I appreciate um the level of knowledge that you've uh shown about many of the issues and concerns that we've talked about. And I just want to reinforce one thing and then ask a question. I think Mr. Ammedday brought up some issues around the staffing cuts and and to agencies. and you and I had a chance to talk a little bit about that.
▶ 2:17:25So, when it comes to the reorganization, the level of cuts that have been made um you know, I expected my opening expressed it in my opening remarks and and also uh to you individually that just we have deep concerns about how it was done with the probationary workers being fired and then people being offered these uh opportunities to resign and we've lost some critical positions.
▶ 2:17:47So, as you're moving forward and when we get a full budget, I hope we can be much more uh involved in the conversation about what are those strategic positions, where are we getting people back, and where could we uh have less people doing the work. So, I know you've already expressed a lot of that. I do want to say we had one critical position at um Kadia National Park in the Scudic uh Peninsula where there was only one licensed water operator, a critical position. That person resigned. I'm assuming it was because of the opportunity to resign.
▶ 2:18:17Um, but the hiring freeze meant there's no opportunity to put a replacement in. So, there's a critical position about clean water. It impacts all the people who visit the park. Yet, at this moment, it's just kind of absurd that we can't do that. So, if you could just take a quick look at that at some point.
▶ 2:18:32I I I would say on that one, we we had this uh situation at Yusede too where some of the people that were doing the the the water plant operations uh took the uh deferred retirement uh program option and we were able to replace those positions. So the so if if we need to bring somebody back in as a water operator, we should talk because we can get that position posted. Thank you very much for looking at that in this case. Uh that that would be very beneficial. So if you could look into that.
▶ 2:19:02Um they did I think get some temporary replacement because of an outside funding group. As you mentioned there are these amazing organizations friends of Acadia, Friends of Kataden Woods Waters who really do help run our parks. I'm quite confident that they would not want to take the national park over. So as you're discussing that and you you did make that clear that you're thinking differently about the national parks than some of these other entities. But I do think we have to make sure there is a strong base of support before we give up uh you know the national ownership of this.
▶ 2:19:30But let me just uh ask one last question about um renewable energy. Um you're also the energy zar. Uh so I know this is something you know a lot about and obviously the work that you've done in North Dakota uh really speaks to your expertise around energy. But this administration has declared a national energy emergency.
▶ 2:19:48You talked a little bit about the AI arms race with China and I know there's been a lot of expression from this administration about having AI dominance and that just is a huge energy requirement and I don't think we always put it in that context but it's going to require great uh opportunities for renewable energy and other energies. So, um I think that your perspective now from me watching on the outside is that uh this administration and you are disregarding needed investments in renewable energy and focusing solely on fossil fuels.
▶ 2:20:18Renewable energy already generates about 21% of the electricity used in the United States. The wind alone accounting for 10%. Clean energy investments are estimated to save the average household $500 annually in reduced energy costs. in my home state of Maine where we've put a real focus on this uh conversion to heat pumps in our very oil dependent state. We're not an oil producer. Um as well as rooftop solar panels has really reduced costs for a lot of people.
▶ 2:20:44So we see it as a cost reduction and in meeting the future needs of greater energy. It seems like it should be and all of the above. I know you did just I think last night reinstate the construction of the Empire Wind project. So I appreciate that coming back online. Um but you do uh in your budget eliminate all funding for renewable energy effectively gutting this critical sector.
▶ 2:21:05Now in my mind this uh disregards the climate change concerns that we have and also the economic benefits and I do know you were doing work in North Dakota on um carbon neutrality, carbon capture. Um I've had the chance to observe a lot of carbon capture facilities in places as far a field as Norway and Iceland and I know there's still questionable uh ability of them to do the job that needs to be done. So there seems to still be a really a critical role for renewable energy. So can you just justify your perspective?
▶ 2:21:34Am I missing something that you're doing that we don't know much about since we're are just observing this from the outside? Well, I would I uh say that a a key component to this is understanding the uh reliability. Uh and I would have a disagreement around some of your statements on cost.
▶ 2:21:56Uh and when you say that we're getting 20% of electricity from renewables, uh what I hear in that word is intermittent because right now without the battery technology when the sun goes down every night then whatever we whatever we claim we're getting from solar at night it's zero. Thankfully we need less electricity during the night but it's zero. So it produces none. Uh the wind is 10% when the wind is blowing.
▶ 2:22:24uh it may be slightly higher than that if the wind is blowing strongly, but when the wind's not blowing, it's zero. So then what we need to have if we've got situations like on the day that President Trump was inaugurated, January 20th, which you all remember, I'm sure you were here, it was extremely cold in the PJM grid for so think Pentagon to Wall Street. Think of all the essential activity.
▶ 2:22:46I think 60 million people about the same number of people that experienced that you know the blackout in Spain in this Washington to New York uh at 5 in the morning we had 0% coming from solar and we had 70% coming from fossil fuels 22% from nuclear 6% from hydro and other oil and other sources and 2% from wind. And so on the when we say that we've got 20% from renewables that's on a good day. When we don't we have to still produce 100% of the need.
▶ 2:23:15So we still need the base load. We still need the fossil fuels. We still need nuclear. And so that whole system has to remain in place. Otherwise, when the sun's not shining, the wind's not blowing, then we don't have enough electricity. I mean, not even enough for AI, we don't have enough for hospitals and schools and Wall Street and the Pentagon. And so the if you lay in the cost of having now to own build two systems, you know, then we're heading down the path of Germany. Germany spent a half a trillion dollars, $500 billion on wind and solar.
▶ 2:23:44They shut down all of their base load fossil fuels. They shut down their nuclear partly because uh well it's well that Germany in a multi-party system where the Green Party was very influential in driving this and they were never maybe 10 or 20% of the votes but they were influential in driving the discussion. Uh you know Russia was you know just like I mean as a state we were under cyber attack every day.
▶ 2:24:10China, Russia, Iran, North Korea every day coming after our missile sites, coming after our tribes, coming after our communities. Part of that part of those cyber attacks include uh cyber operations filled with the kinds of things that would advantage an adversary. So Russia, it was to great advantage to have Germany de-industrialize, shut down all of their base load, become highly dependent on Russian gas. And and if anybody thinks that that wasn't what they were doing, I I would just you guys have got security clearances. Go learn about it.
▶ 2:24:40And it is a and so Germany went down that path. They spent a half trillion dollars. They produced 20% less electricity than they did before. And and and and their electricity is three times higher cost than it was before. So less reliability, higher cost. uh the the price of electricity in Maine is exactly about three times what it is in North Dakota.
▶ 2:25:03And and so when when I hear that people say that renewables are are somehow lowering electricity prices, that is just factually not true. it it you know it may be true at at some marginal cost but there's hundreds of billions of dollars hundreds of bill everything we've talked about here that that would solve every problem for interior with this little you know 10 billion dollar little $10 billion budget we're talking about that's being cut this and that there's hundreds
▶ 2:25:33of billions of dollars of subsidies for wind in the IRA and you I mean I saw a report a legitimate report from legitimate people that the the cost per kilowatt for offshore wind is 10 times higher than it's like double onshore wind and it's 10 times higher than a natural gas uh plant uh you know that's like at the wellhead in Pennsylvania and and so part of what we're you know I you know as we pursued in North Dakota and then you were saying carbon capture may not be working in Norway
▶ 2:26:03it's working in North Dakota uh and we've been doing it for we've been doing it for 20 years with 42 million tons of CO2 that we've captured that's been shipped up to uh Saskatchewan. We got, you know, zerocarbon ethanol plants in North Dakota. We have some of the greatest CO2 storage in the world. Uh, you know, that's that's right there. So, when people tell me it's unproven, I would just invite them come to North Dakota and see what we're doing. But on the what we're for for the national, you know, energy emergency, it's not necessarily about gas at the pump.
▶ 2:26:34It's about we don't have enough electricity. And the AI arms race is not a it's not for the tech companies. It's for national security. If we I mean we can't have missile defense without without uh AI. I mean we we will that is there there there is no I mean when the bad guys are firing 400 missiles at at Israel and we knock down 399 of them. It's not just cuz we have smart people. I mean there is there is incredible IT systems that are causing that to happen.
▶ 2:27:03And then we all get up and go to work the other day and oh only one missile got through. Oh what else? You know what was the score of the baseball game? If all 400 missiles had land on Israel, you know, we World War II would have started. I mean, we, you know, we're stopping we're stopping those kinds of catastrophic things from happening and wiping out an entire country, our ally, because of technology. And so, we are we we have we can't come in second in the AI arms race. I mean, that this is like it's like the nuclear race.
▶ 2:27:29We have to and and it's um going to AI is going to transform every job, every company, and every industry. And right now on the path that we're in, New England would have ended up with with these really high electric cost, a huge, you know, anti- natural gas bias, uh, that you we'd end up with New England, which is a huge part of our population, huge part of our of our thing, would have no advanced manufacturing, no AI data centers.
▶ 2:27:57There's not enough electricity to run that micron chip plant in upstate New York unless we get more uh more power that's coming from non-inmittent sources. I mean, we need the right mix of intermittent plus base load. If we don't have enough base loaded, the Q at FK is 95% wind, solar, and batteries. 95% is wind, solar, and batteries. If we have 95% when we're already in a destabilized, we're already at a point like I described on the on the inauguration day.
▶ 2:28:25We're already at this point where we're dangerously close to the tipping point of having too much uh intermittent to to to balance the grid. And the grid the grid is the mother of all other networks. If the grid isn't working, then nothing works. I mean, not at the Pentagon, you know, the everybody's IT systems.
▶ 2:28:42So electricity, we've just become so uh complacent about it when in fact we've put ourselves at real risk as a country and and I part of what the president cares about is that everybody that all 48 states and whether they voted for him or not uh that everybody's got going to make sure that we've got a resilient resilient grid for without there's economic development is going to go where the electricity is. That's the new thing and electricity has never been worth more than it is right now in human history.
▶ 2:29:12one you can a kilowatt hour today in an AI data center. It's not like a data center that is does shopping claims or or you know I mean a shopping order or a health claim. I mean that's what data centers in the past. Okay, we're going to process a medical claim. We're going to process a shopping order. Today an AI data center is actually turning electricity into intelligence. I mean that's what AI is.
▶ 2:29:33It is like now, you know, if I was I mean, the current versions program and they program as well as as all but like the top 100 programmers in our country. So then if I'm was going to leave here today, walk out the door and start a company, I wouldn't need to hire a thousand programmers like we used to. I got to hire a few and then have them have an army of robotic programmers called AI for practically free. And and software has always been the thing that's transformed human capability in the last 40 years, more than anything in human history.
▶ 2:30:02So, we're at this precipice of of incredible change and and then we've got states that are like, we're okay with with really high electric prices and and lack of reliability. They're going to just completely miss out. I mean, they'll de-industrialize just the way Germany did. And the population will move to places where you can actually get permits and pipelines built, you know, to get because in the near term, the next five years, it's going to be natural gas. In the 2030s, nuclear can play a huge role, but we're at least 5 years away from that becoming a significant thing.
▶ 2:30:31And we've got to fix the permitting because we're a country where it takes you 10 to 20 years to build a nuclear plant. That doesn't work with small modulars. We got to go more quickly. Geothermal is, you know, that's green, but it's persistent base load. If we can get access to that 350 centigrade heat, you know, below the ground. I mean, geothermal, but we got we got a little more material science we're doing. So, I'm very optimistic.
▶ 2:30:53And then you started out with climate change and I'm like, man, with with AI and with all the new technologies and with nuclear, all that stuff that's coming in the next 10 years, we will solve the 21 the year 2100 temperature problem. I mean, we will solve that, you know, with innovation. We can't solve it by regulating our sources of energy out of business now because we need that energy to create the solutions.
▶ 2:31:15And the and the and the existential threat that this administrations are focusing on is Iran cannot get a nuclear weapon and we can't lose the AI arms race to China. That's that's that's the the number one and number two. And if we solve those two things then we then we will we will have plenty of time to solve you know any issues related to uh you know potential temperature change that's 70 years out. I mean I just I I know that for sure because of of what's coming because we've just we we we're going to have capabilities.
▶ 2:31:45we've never had before and they're arriving literally right right now that'll cure diseases and it's going to change how you know what we have to spend on education what we have to spend on healthcare all these things are those budgets will get dramatically changed in the next decade based on on the contributions of AI but we won't have any AI if we don't have electricity and if we don't have a sound energy plan then we won't so you can't separate national security and world peace and and prosperity at home from our generation of energy so that's the that's the short answer.
▶ 2:32:15It's funny. Okay, that was a uh that was a short answer. Um, so look, I didn't mean to uh get my uh whole committee involved in a in a conversation about um what energy policy in the future should be, but I do appreciate the depth of your knowledge. Um I disagree on a few things. Look, we do not like having high electric rates in anywhere in New England or in Maine. And um we are not in the same situation as North Dakota. That's the reason yours are much lower is because yes, we are moving natural gas into our state, but it had to move from somewhere else.
▶ 2:32:45You had the unique opportunity to have it right there under the ground. Um, and I don't think that people of Maine are ready for offshore drilling off the coast of Maine, and most people don't think that we have resources of offshore you you won't need to offshore anything. But what we do need is Demeino to get that motherload of gas from Pennsylvania through New York up to you because right now 80% of the homes as you know in Maine are burning heating oil. Yeah.
▶ 2:33:09And and so if you want to reduce CO2 in New England, the number one way we can do it replace home heating and look heating with natural gas. I do not want to disadvantage my colleagues by debating every possible point. But I will say I understand you about grid modernization. I think we all realize that we have a permitting process that doesn't work for anybody. Whether you're a blue, red, or purple or green state, it just doesn't matter. It's not working for any of us. Um I do believe that solar and wind belong in part of the mix.
▶ 2:33:38I believe we're investing in battery storage and in many cases that's the best way to go about doing it. All of these mixes have a real up, you know, there's a reason for having a mix and I understand that we have to have dependable load. I counter a little bit on the uh solar panels on the roof when they're very cheap. I personally have batteries in the basement and it works just great for me and it's much cheaper than having to uh import oil. So look, there are a whole variety of ways to do it and you've got a lot of I would just say I want you to know I agree with that.
▶ 2:34:03I mean rooftop solar where you don't have to build a transmission line uh and you've got for you know for home use. That's one of the that's one of the niche markets but powering the grid with solar at large scale that's not there because we we haven't we've got a battery solution for you for your home. We don't have a battery solution for how to store enough power to run. I just say I I just I just one on one point. Yes. Um but thank you. And really it's not running. We just agree. We agree there's there's places but it's not it's not the whole I agree. I'm just I'm just teasing and I would love to see more of the carbon capture work.
▶ 2:34:33I I have seen some interesting projects and I'm not saying that they're not all uh got real opportunities. I'd love to come to North Dakota to do that. I will stop this for my colleagues, but I would say would just to be clear if if if Congress decided to eliminate subsidies for wind, then there would be no applications for wind projects. I mean, they they just they they've had 30 years of subsidies and they've never made money and they're not going to make money.
▶ 2:34:56And people would argue that we've subsidized oil for many years and that to have uh the kind of nuclear power that you're talking about will also require a lot of subsidies. So, we are we do invest in energy choices. Carbon capture requires subsidies. Battery technology requires subsidies. We make these decisions. Anyway, I think you're uh I appreciate this argument very much and appreciate the opportunity.
▶ 2:35:17I would love to talk to you more about it and do believe it's part of our committee's mandate and I will stop here because I know there are a lot of people who have questions and I apologize for taking up all the time. But thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ingry. I knew that uh if we got into energy this was going to extend out the discussion. Uh in fact, I've been told to me to try it. Yeah. I've been told by some people that the limiting factor in the growth of our economy, it's not going to be available capital. It's not going to be anything. It's energy and the development and cost of energy.
▶ 2:35:47That's 100% true. Y Mr. Cole, uh I won't take too much time, but I actually want to thank my friend, the ranking member for provoking that discussion or gener because I, you know, I just think it's such a demonstration of why you we are so lucky to have you in the position you're in. I mean, the range of knowledge, the obvious professionalism, the management capability, I think you're going to have a brilliant tenure at uh at Interior.
▶ 2:36:11Uh and so that was that was one of the best discussions I've heard and frankly exactly what these hearings are for. So, thank you very much for that and uh it was a valuable contribution in and of itself. Uh second point just u to pick up something that was mentioned earlier. I you talked about uh transferring some of these smaller portions of the national great idea. Uh Oklahoma did something similar to that.
▶ 2:36:40We have a lot of remote locations that were important to tribal governments but not particularly attractive in terms of tourism and and they were cost drain. Uh I would tell you not to just look at state governments but to look at tribal governments and in our case we had the means to manage it. So it wasn't a matter it was just something we wanted to do and have in our possession other tribes that again were similarly well situated. Doesn't work if the tribe doesn't have the the financial resources to do that.
▶ 2:37:10But in our case we did and certainly in some of these other cases you may find very willing partners. I would uh offer one uh while you said never never never on the national parks, look at the Chickansaw National Recreational Area sometime and I guarantee you we'd manage it better. Uh and and that's not to say the federal government does a bad job. They don't, but we would put more resources into it.
▶ 2:37:34and the park the park itself the original core of it was actually a contribution a donation by the Chickasaw Nation to the federal government uh simply because we were going through the DOS commission and we didn't want that to fall there were sacred springs to us we didn't want it to fall into private hands so I mean we're the ones that gave it to you so if we ever wanted to buy it back uh you know we'd like to have the option to sit down and talk and actually one one occasion during the Obama administration we did and we also rebuilt
▶ 2:38:04all the all the park services offices there. You lease them from us. There are much better facilities than you had. Uh so I think there are places where you could find some willing partners in in Indian country that would like to at least have a fruitful discussion with you. Last point I want to make um and this is really not directed at you but it's something that both the chairman and I think uh our former chair Mr.
▶ 2:38:30column mentioned uh and that's this whole issue of getting information on the budget and I'm not here to beat uh you up in the least about it or frankly uh the folks at OM we've had a good working relationship on a variety of fronts uh they were very helpful during the CR and we worked closely together u you know we're continuing to have a good dialogue and I also recognize a new administration cannot possibly meet the deadlines that we impose in Congress on February 15th Ain't no
▶ 2:39:00way somebody hadn't even got their people appointed yet. Uh no administration's ever made that. But I just say this is a it's not even a warning. It's just a recognition of reality. We are running out of time. Uh you know, if we're going to get these bills through our committee, uh we're going to start acting on our own and we just don't have the details. Skinny budget's helpful, but it's not what this committee would want to have and every other subcommittee that we have. And frankly, it's not what you'd want to give us.
▶ 2:39:29Uh you would want us to make intelligent decisions based on a deeper understanding of individual programs and wherever. But I think we're probably just pretty close to having to plunge in and and deem a topline number and make allocations and start moving. And this isn't all the administration's fault at all. I will tell you, Congress has been very remiss uh in actually passing a budget. we've been deeming budgets in a bipartisan way for the last several years.
▶ 2:39:58And we again, we want to work closely with the president. So, we're going to look pretty closely at his uh top lines and whatever. But the budget, even the skinny budget, I would just say without dragging everybody into detail. Look, when you're using reconciliation money to build the budget, you're doing two things. Uh number one, we don't know that we have no jurisdiction over that money and we don't know if it's going to happen yet. You know, we don't know. It hadn't gotten through the House yet. Senate's another process.
▶ 2:40:25I can't budget on money that's not I don't know is going to be there. So, we're looking very closely at the lines, but the idea of using reconciliation money before we pass a reconciliation bill is difficult for us uh uh and uh could really make it uh you know, extraordinarily difficult. Second problem that we have with reconciliation money and using that is it's going to create for us amazing cliffs in the future. You know, it does run out.
▶ 2:40:54And so you're using all that for defense. There's a point where it stops and all a sudden you're not looking at manageable increases. You're looking at tens of billions of dollars. the same thing will happen in homeland uh where my my friend here will have that problem to wrestle with at at some point. So I just say that and again I'm not being critical. I understand why it's being done that way. It's helpful. These are important investments that ought to be made.
▶ 2:41:21Uh and there also u uh there is a political process here and if anybody doesn't think if you want a defense hike you don't have to pay for it on the other side of the ledger to get to the filibuster number in the Senate then they just don't know how this game is played up here.
▶ 2:41:36So, uh, believe me, the Democrats spent a lot of money, uh, on the, uh, uh, you know, much misnamed inflation reduction act and the American Rescue Plan, uh, that was outside the normal appropriations process and didn't have a dime for defense or a dime for Homeland Security, spent everything else under the sun and ignited the worst inflation outburst in 40 years, and probably indirectly elected the president that we have today that's dealing with these issues because I think there's a
▶ 2:42:06reaction to that. But regardless, just as we go forward, I just want to use the occasion of your testimony here, which has been exceptional. Look, I've heard a lot of these things over 20 years and we've certainly had other good secretaries, but your depth of knowledge uh about how these issu these issues within a 100 days and more importantly the experience that you bring as a governor, an administrator, successful business person are just so obvious that uh uh you know I think you're going to have
▶ 2:42:37a lot of support for what you recommend and what you think just based on the confidence people have in you. So an enormous asset for this committee uh to have somebody like you because these are naughty problems. My friend Mr. Simpsons chaired it twice and uh has had to wrestle with him and I was on it for many many years and again you'll find particularly on tribal issues. Uh this committee will actually probably be more engaged and I say this with no disrespect to our friends on natural resources.
▶ 2:43:05They certainly have some people there that understand tribal issues and care about them. they're a lot more bipartisan in this subcommittee and there's a lot of depth of knowledge here on those issues on both sides of the aisle. So, uh, but again, you bring that independently yourself. So, I'm looking forward to some some things that I think will will be terrific for some of the most neglected and forgotten parts of the country. And I appreciate your commitment.
▶ 2:43:32So, again, um, we are going to move ahead uh on the budget pretty quickly. Uh but uh we would always welcome uh advice along the way. And I will tell you, you know, depending on what happens with reconciliation, things can be adjusted later, changed around. Uh but we got to get bills out of here. You want us to get them out of here, believe me, by this by the August break.
▶ 2:43:58Uh we need to get some of them across the floor in um in uh you know, June and July uh to have any chance of a bargain. uh you know toward the end of the year and it will be a bipartisan bargain in the end. Has to be because we don't have reconciliation and appropriation. So um you know we're going to have to have 60 votes in the Senate and uh every time we get 60 in the Senate I lose some votes here on my right wing. So uh you know that's just that's just the way it works.
▶ 2:44:28Uh but we invite your participation in the process and certainly the administration because I do think uh and this will be hard for my Democratic friends. final deal deal is going to be negotiated by the president of the United States. I mean, he's got to sign it. And anybody here that thinks he is not part of it are making the same mistake that I saw in my view my friends make. They could have had a better deal than a CR on the table.
▶ 2:44:52Uh but they wanted to restrict a Republican president and a Republican Senate and Republican House aren't going to restrict a Republican president uh and then ask him to sign the bill. It's not going to happen. So again, he'll be much more involved in the process this time than he was because to be fair, that process should have been finished up before he was ever president of the United States. That's not his fault.
▶ 2:45:16His fault to Congress uh for not getting this work done before he was inaugurated and sort of dumping this mess on him. And again, bad on us on both sides of the aisle. Um we'll have a long discussion about why and how that happened sometime, too. But again, I'm really appreciative of your leadership in the department and really excited about what the prospects in front of us under your leadership are. You'll back, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Amade. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:45:46I'm more than a little intimidated after watching all the big kids take the deep dives at the deep end of the pool about all that other sort of stuff. But it's been it's been very instructive for someone who comes with brings limited resources. Um, um, just a couple of takeaway things that that we're gonna ask Thank you, Mr. Chairman. to get back with you to get back with you on. And I want to start out with Federal Land Transaction Facilitation Act. Um, I'm not that familiar with it.
▶ 2:46:17Um I'm not that familiar with it, but um it's it's my understanding, at least in my neck of the woods, we haven't used that since Christ was a corporal, if ever. And so it's like if there are reasons why I I I know no districts in Nevada have used it. And so it's one of those things like, well, that's just all always the way we didn't do it.
▶ 2:46:38if if something needs to be fixed in that to make it as like you mentioned when you just did this this uh checkerboard thing with Utah, it's like if there are tools other than passing a lands bill in Congress that are transparent and you know all that other sort of stuff, then by all means um BIA law enforcement twice in the last six months because my folks in in in uh Native Nations country aren't big Indian country and
▶ 2:47:08therefore we don't have facilities on reservations like hey that's where you go lock somebody up or this or that we struggle the same way everybody else does in terms of of uh of personnel and stuff like that but inevitably when somebody gets arrested in Indian country in Nevada they've got an agreement with somebody either in Reno or in Las Vegas to lock them up until they go wherever if those agreements go away then they get driven to Arizona from like Elco or Winnamaka theoretically ally.
▶ 2:47:37And so it was one of those things that I didn't think was broke, but I'm getting calls from sheriff's office going, "Hey, we just got a call from somebody at BIA and they said starting Monday, we're not paying you to do whatever." A lot of scrambling around. Fortunately, some of the leadership there backed those off, but I don't have the feeling that it couldn't happen again.
▶ 2:47:57So, we're going to be visiting with your folks just to say, "Hey, if there's a problem, then let's address it, but let's not manage it by somebody calling somebody on the phone and going, you got to empty your your jail of the folks that you're holding for XYZ tribe." Um, water. I was happy to hear that discussion, but I got to tell you something that happened recently. There was a a fonza issued uh on a on a hydro project.
▶ 2:48:24It's a FK project for the most part, but it involves a lot of BLM land. So the Ele office is on it and we got a big thing in Nevada. I know it'll come as news. Groundwater is the exclusive jurisdiction of the state engineer. And so we always press the BLM offices there when they're doing subwater. Did you call the state engineer? Not telling you how to decide. Did you call the state No. And I thought, well, so we call the state engineer and the director of conservation natural resource.
▶ 2:48:54anybody from from BLM call you? No. Now, your acting state director has done a great job. We got on the phone and said, "Hey, listen. How hard is it to acknowledge that there's something that involves groundwater in issuing this and that somebody at least called the office and whatever?" And you know, I got to tell you, I was a little disappointed from the Ele. We got some push back. Well, there's no significant impact. It's like, really? Are you a licensed water engineer in the state of Nevada in the Ele office?
▶ 2:49:22And and I mean it's not nefarious, but it's like if you want completeness of your action, I would think you would check that box. So I think we've got that fixed. But I I I can't stress that enough. Um when you own most of it to say, "Hey, the only thing we really have jurisdiction over that that didn't used to be in question was we don't do groundwater in the state of Nevada. That's the state engineer." So we're going to be following up on that. Uh it it it bugs me.
▶ 2:49:51Um, and you can see why. Um, and the last thing I'm going to uh uh we had talked briefly about it and I'm and if there was reason for it, fine. And I want to give Dave Burnernhard some credit. During his tenure, he moved a solicitor out of the California solicitor's office up to help John Rabby out managing Nevada.
▶ 2:50:13And it's like, listen, it's not I don't have anything against people in California other than the stuff that everybody else does, but I'm sitting here looking at this. You got three district offices in California. You manage about 15 million acres. Four services managed 20. And in Nevada, you've got uh six districts um wholly in Nevada. And you manage a zillion more acres. I don't know what the thing is. Uh um Oh, it's 47.8 in Nevada.
▶ 2:50:43And so I'm I'm nothing against the people in California. I don't know him, but I can't imagine a scenario where the governor, for instance, of North Dakota would get his legal advice from somebody in another state. And when you talk about the importance of community and and how and how important it is for you to go places and see things when you're giving probably the largest BLM real estate operation in the country which is in Las Vegas when they're getting their advice from 500 miles away in a different state.
▶ 2:51:11It just doesn't sound like strong administrative stuff to me. And so I know there's been people have looked at the workload stuff and I know this is the way that we've always done it and and I'm not saying but it's like why are we going to California whose mission is a third of what it is in Nevada and listen BLM interior is like the super federal agency in Nevada.
▶ 2:51:35No offense to defense and all those other ones you know but it's like you're the guy in Nevada and and rightfully so. And so I just think it's a weakness in the administrative setup in terms of how we support what's got to be one of the most challenging state director jobs. And by the way, you you did good in and John Raby's back, you know, in a temporary thing. If it's not career non-enhancing, we'd like him back. But uh no disrespect on that.
▶ 2:52:04But I just think that's a dis where like when you're trying to work a problem out in Winnok, it's like, well, what's the problem here? Whether it's permitting or or whatever. Well, the solicitor said no. Well, who's the solicitor? Well, they're over there. It just it just seems like it could use a new set of eyes. And if you say, "Hey, we like it the way it is and here's why," then fine. But just on on the surface thing, because it's the way we've always done it, doesn't sound like it ought to go forward.
▶ 2:52:34And so, I want to thank you for your time and your involvement in your first 100 days. you've been you've been acceis in the term of availability for us. I appreciate it and we'll look forward to following up with your folks and continuing to do good things uh to get the policy right. Thank you. Thank the gentleman for allowing us to inter intervene in his time. Yeah. Like the way on behalf of Miss Mallaloy I was going to say is there is there a question in there? That's why I stuck around. Thank you Secretary Bergam for being here today.
▶ 2:53:04We appreciate it and look forward to working with you. Go ahead. I was going to say I well I still have the ranking member and you here one thing that didn't come up today but we talked about working together. One thing that I wanted to share uh with this group that we could work on together think about is that we've uncovered that there's about 48,000 probate cases that are unresolved in Indian country. Yeah. And uh this has an effect on housing.
▶ 2:53:30someone dies, uh they uh apparently the current process is they come and say no one can live in this house uh until we figure out who owns it. Uh and uh I've been described to me that there's during the uh my meetings with tribal leaders that they have in neighborhoods, some places where there's a a measurable percentage of the the homes have got police tape around it and boarded up and can't live there because it's stuck in probate, then it's stuck for years. Uh so I said, "Oh, is that you know, one is that one incident?
▶ 2:53:59Can we go fix that thing?" I come back and my team digs around for a while and then they say, "No, there's 48,000 of these. We're trying to work through this." So, we've created some strike teams, but that's an area where uh we're we're going to we're have to get creative both on, you know, this could be an application for AI uh to dig through this stuff. I mean, and from a parallegal standpoint to speed up the process for the for the actual limited lawyers we have uh to do it. But anyway, we've got to do that.
▶ 2:54:24And then and then as we continued that search then it also led to places like uh Oklahoma, North Dakota and others where we've Arizona where we've got a lot that have mineral rights and then they're not receiving their checks and we've had some people that have I've been told have gone through the entire shale revolution and never received a check.
▶ 2:54:44I mean, you know, 15 years gone by and the elotees passed away and now we're trying to figure out who their relatives are and they're holding it in suspension and it was like, what do we think the dollars are? And the number the numbers uh for individuals could be hundreds of millions of dollars. We don't have a factor on that yet. And then the tribes themselves uh that have tribal land that is not resolved from a probate standpoint. So, we don't know the ownership. Then we're holding that.
▶ 2:55:11And in some cases, the companies that that develop the mineral resources may be holding it in suspension and they haven't paid it because they said, "Well, we don't know who to pay the mineral royalty." Well, then we're really at risk because it's not the federal government holding it. Now, we got a company that could go out of bankrupt. That could be hundreds of millions more. So, at first glance, we could be staring at a half a billion dollar problem. And when I say, hey, it's a trust responsibility for the federal government to be uh taking care of the the resources of our tribal partners.
▶ 2:55:38then we can't we can't even process these basic functions for them. I mean no other community would put up with this. I mean I mean or or we all would have heard about it because it'd be like if this was you name name uh name any other situation other than tribal where this wouldn't be front page news and then you got to and I've been working on tribal stuff for eight years and I've just learned about this one after I got like two weeks ago. Yeah. So you keep digging. There's more stuff.
▶ 2:56:03But anyway, that's something if your staff or others have got background or awareness or ideas or if some tribe has figured it out, but I think this is a federal it's I think this is in our hands and we've got to figure out the systems. This goes back to the the under spend on IT systems. Appreciate it. Uh and we look forward to working with you on that issue and many other issues across the department. Again, thank you for being here today. We appreciate you taking time to answer all our questions and hear about the issues obviously that are important in our district.
▶ 2:56:33With that, the subcommittee stands journed. Thank you I've got my driver downstairs, which is my staff to take me to a thing I'm 20 minutes late for. So anyway, thank you very much. Very, very good. And I think Mr. Smith here has something he wants to ask you.
▶ 2:56:55I'll bet it has to do with offshore width. All