▶ 0:41:40Do it. The oversight subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on the examination of threats to operations being performed by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement, otherwise known as ICE.
▶ 0:42:08The chair now recognizes the gentleman from the state of Texas, Brandon Gil, to lead us in the pledge of allegiance. After that, we will remain standing for a moment of silence. To the flag of the United States of America and to the rep for it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
▶ 0:42:36Moment of I will now recognize myself for an statement.
▶ 0:43:05We are here today for one reason. Because the American people are watching their leaders. They're watching their leaders at every level of government. and they're watching hulos who choose to protect illegal alien criminals over their own law-abiding citizens. It's not rhetoric. It's not hyperbole. It's not a Republican talking point. It's just fact. Let me be very clear.
▶ 0:43:35This is not about politics. This is about public safety. This is about law and order. This is about whether the United States of America still has the will to enforce its own laws. We're coming out of the largest border crisis in American history, and the American people continue to live with the consequences every single day.
▶ 0:44:00During Joe Biden's presidency, more than 8 million aliens crossed the southwest border illegally. Uh, and that's at a minimum. There probably many more. There are a lot of numbers out there, but we know at least that many. Six million of them were released into the country. They were given legal advice. They were given food. They were given education. They were given transportation. They were given shelter.
▶ 0:44:27And in some cases, even debit cards, all on the American taxpayers's dime. And at least 1.9 million gotaways crossed the border and escaped law enforcement. all together. Didn't even know who they all are and where they all are living. The open southwest border created a drug crisis, a human smuggling crisis, and a violent crime crisis. Unfortunately, none of this was by accident.
▶ 0:44:57It happened because the Biden Harris administration chose chaos over control, ideology over enforcement of the law, and politics over the American people. The numbers just don't show a crisis. They show a fullscale collapse of our sovereignty, our security, and the very idea that a nation without borders is still a nation at all.
▶ 0:45:26The worst part of it all is that it just didn't happen. It was designed. On day one of his presidency, the Biden Harris administration cancelled border wall construction. Day one, it gutted the remain in Mexico policy. It abused immigration patrol authorities to release hundreds, thousands of illegal aliens into our communities.
▶ 0:45:54It virtually stopped enforcing immigration laws on the interior of the United States, which resulted in more than a 60% increase in ICE arrests during the first few months of the administration. And the Biden Harris administration turned a blind blind eye to the spread of violent gangs like Tren Diagra and MS-13 across the country.
▶ 0:46:22The result Terrorists on watch lists entering our country. Criminals with prior convention con convictions for violent crimes such as assault, rape, murder being released instead of removed. And an immigration enforcement overwhelmed, underfunded, and pushed well beyond its limits.
▶ 0:46:48The only bright side of this chaos is that the American people made their choices overwhelmingly clear by rejecting these chaotic and policies. They removed President Biden and borders our Harris and gave Republicans control of the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. And now, President Trump is back in office and finally doing what should have been done years ago, restoring order, rebuilding capacity, and demanding accountability.
▶ 0:47:19But he inherited a system that has been pushed past its breaking point. ICE has more than 7.6 million aliens on the non-detained docket, up 135% since the day that Biden took office. Agents are scrambling to track dangerous individuals who should have been deported long ago. Right now, ICE needs more detention space than it ever did.
▶ 0:47:47But the same voices that created this chaos are now trying to shut down the very detention facilities that are needed to fix it. That's why this hearing matters. From New York to California, local politicians are actively working to undermine federal immigration enforcement. Perhaps the most egregious effort is in my home state, the great state of New Jersey. And we're going to play a quick video now showing this.
▶ 0:48:38an ambulance there apparently turned away at the ICE detention center uh in Newark. We've seen at least two ambulances try to pull into this ICE detention facility here in Newark, New Jersey, and they turned that ambulance away. The detention facility holds members of MS-13, murderers, arsonists, drug traffickers, American killers. We want freedom. Free our people.
▶ 0:49:08This is sacred ground. Free our people. This is not legal facility. On May 1st, Delaney Hall, a 1,000 bed detention facility in Newark, New Jersey, was officially reopened.
▶ 0:49:30It houses illegal aliens charged with crimes like rape, murder, burglary, and weapons offenses. Facilities like Delaney Hall are desperately needed to help prevent dangerous criminal aliens from remaining on our streets, on your The reopening of Delaney drastically expanded ISIS detention capacity in the northeast and enhanced the AY's ability to manage the increasing number of
▶ 0:50:00enforcement and removal operations of illegal aliens in our country. Despite the severity of their crimes and illegal status in our country, those being detained at Delaney Hall are treated with dignity and are housed in a facility that exceeds the standards of many of our own US prisons. It has clean dorms. It has indoor and outdoor recreation areas.
▶ 0:50:28It has mental services, mental health services, and medical services. It has phones, webcams, and consular access. And yet, from the moment Delaney Hall was reauthorized to operate as a detention facility, it has been under constant, relentless political assault.
▶ 0:50:49Local officials have used inspections, lawsuits, and bureaucratic hurdles as weapons, not to make the facility was operational, but to completely shut it down.
▶ 0:51:05Outside of the facility, there have been coordinated protests led by political figures, including Newark, New Jerseyy's own mayor, who publicly vowed to quote, "padlock the building if necessary and declared that immigration enforcement of criminals is not welcome in his city." This isn't oversight. That's not oversight. That's obstruction. There's a big difference.
▶ 0:51:29It's lawfare designed to undermine federal authorities and score political points at the expense of our public safety. On May 9th, the tension culminated in a shameful display by the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, and members of Congress who stormed into the facility without clearance, without following protocol, and physically disrupted law enforcement operations. They cursed at staff.
▶ 0:51:59They shoved past security. They assaulted They assaulted federal law enforcement officers. And for what? To free Criminals.
▶ 0:52:13I'm going to show some more So the question I have was it to free Hugo de Laore Tomia wanted for prosecution in Peru for the crime of raping a minor. He's wanted in Peru.
▶ 0:52:33Was it to free Jorge Louise Sanchez Luna, a Mexican national who is a registered sex offender who sexually assaulted his own daughter. Or was it Lopez Reyes, a Mexican national who's wanted in Mexico? They want him back in Mexico. He's a fugitive for the offense of raping a child, raping a minor.
▶ 0:53:04There are hundreds of other awful, horrible individuals like these men currently being arrested in New Jersey and they're being held at Delaney Hall and they should be. They should be. So, let's be honest. Who exactly are the Democrats fighting for here? This is the part I don't get because it isn't the American people. It sure as hell is not the American people.
▶ 0:53:33And notably, the very next day after the altercation at Delaney Hall, Mayor Baraka's super PAC, for those of you that don't know, that's a way to raise money, lots and lots of money, released campaign ads touting his efforts to stand up to this agenda as part of his run for governor. It's obvious what happened here. This wasn't about the denine. It wasn't about law and order. It wasn't about American people.
▶ 0:54:02It wasn't about all those marginalized people who get hurt because they live in and around all of us. Marginalized Americans. It was about politics. Pure and simple. Maybe not so pure. Mayor Baraka was mayor of Newark when Delaney Hall, and I want everybody to listen to this. Mayor Baracka was mayor of New York when Delaney Hall operated under President Barack Obama. He was the mayor.
▶ 0:54:31President Obama was the president. This very facility was operated under that pro under that administration. There were no protests, no walkouts, no stunts, no altercations, no attacks, nothing at But now that President Trump is back and the American people have rejected the insanity of happening an open border, now the mayor and his friends in Congress are outraged.
▶ 0:55:02Give me a break. Let's call this what it is. An orchestrated campaign to protect illegal alien criminals and to sabotage federal law enforcement. Just say that one more time. It's a campaign to protect not illegals even, but illegal criminals, illegal criminals, violent criminals that also have broken the law because they are here illegally.
▶ 0:55:30So when Democrats say they're just trying to help by raiding federal facilities, remember what this really means. They want ICE agents gone and out of the way. You have to believe they want criminal aliens free on our streets. And they're willing to risk public safety, sabotage law enforcement, and lie to the American people. You can't stand for law and order while voting to hurt the police.
▶ 0:56:00You can't say you're for border security while sabotaging every single tool that works. Let me be very clear. Delany Hall is not the problem. Delaney Hall is part of the solution. The real problem is the radical left-wing agenda that sides with criminals over citizens, activists over agents, and chaos over common sense.
▶ 0:56:27To the men and women of ICE, this committee has your back. To the communities of New Jersey and the Northeast and the United States of America, we will not let your safety become a political casualty. And to the American people, we hear you. We hear you loud and clear. You want a country that protects its citizens. You want a system that upholds the law.
▶ 0:56:55And you want a government that chooses order, not anarchy. That's exactly what House Republicans are fighting for. And I promise you, I promise you, we will win this fight against leftwing chaos. And I thank you. Just before we start and move forward, I I want to address one other thing. Um, we're going to have a hearing today. And sometimes it's going to be contentious, sometimes it's going to be hot, sometimes will be argumentative.
▶ 0:57:26That's part of America. Now you all just listen but up here but at the same time let us respect each other. Let's not speak about our demeanor, our dress, our physical stature, uh our hair, whatever in God's name people think of. This is the judiciary committee and we are going to run this on both sides of the aisle in an appropriate way.
▶ 0:57:50We're going to run this like ladies and gentlemen that profoundly disagree on an issue. I now recognize the ranking member, Miss Crockett. Thank you, Mr. chairman and um you know I have my prepared remarks and we going to get to them at some point but there was a lot that was said including the fact that Delaney Hall is something that was opened up under Obama and seemingly the mayor at the time did not have issues with Delaney Hall.
▶ 0:58:21I can tell you that there was a point in time in which Alcatraz was open as well and there seemingly weren't any issues. The fact is as the mayor of any city, I want to be clear that there is a duty and that duty is to make sure that any and every building that is opened in that city is up to code. So just because something may have been up to code in 2008 doesn't mean that in 2025 that it was up to code.
▶ 0:58:47And there are those that should respect the authority of the city in which they are operating in. And somehow during the later hours of last night, we saw that while the mayor had been unlawfully charged, those charges ended up being dropped. The mayor of the largest city in the state of New Jersey was charged with criminal trespass.
▶ 0:59:14Now, we have video footage, and I'm not going to play it, but we have video footage of literally them opening the gate and then asking him to leave and then he left. Therefore, there is no criminal trespass. But the reason that I bring it up is because this entire situation could have been avoided if people just would know their jobs and actually do their jobs.
▶ 0:59:36because the entire chaos that ensued, it ensued because of the unlawful detainment and arrest of the mayor in the first place. But let me get to my actual remarks. The Republicans have called today's hearing for one purpose, to help an administration that's already rooted in lawlessness and corruption execute their dangerous assault on American democracy.
▶ 1:00:00So, in today's hearing, you'll hear them admonish their own congressional colleagues and excuse the behavior of the outofc control, corrupt Trump administration. They're going to try to convince you that they're here to protect law and order and the rule of law, but they won't mention how the Trump administration is openly defying many of the 162 court rulings that have paused his illegal executive orders.
▶ 1:00:25They won't talk about how the president has called for the impeachment of judges who rule against him, or how they're allowing ICE agents to raid churches and elementary schools. They won't talk about how they're allowing Trump to purge the Department of Justice of employees who helped investigate the January 6th insurrectionist.
▶ 1:00:45They won't talk about how this administration is preparing to give $5 million to the family of Ashley Babbot who participated in said insurrection because they don't actually care about law and order and the rule of law. They're here today for one reason, to forfeit their constitutional oversight responsibilities.
▶ 1:01:09But since I decided to bring up January 6, let me run a tape to remind y'all of the difference of congressional oversight versus criminals. We're here conducting an oversight visit, which we have the power to do as congressional members.
▶ 1:01:38statutory authority. And so that is what we're here for. And we're waiting to speak to a supervisor to let us in here stand up for our mayor.
▶ 1:01:53We will be your eyes and your ears and we will report to interesting that one set of behaviors somehow is going to get a family rich overnight. And the other folk the other folk that were there in that video, the members of Congress, well, they're saying, "Arest them. Let me remind you that those January 6ers have been pardoned.
▶ 1:02:22Let me remind you that yet another January 6er was just arrested a few days ago for committing what another crime. So if we're going to talk about us keeping our streets safe, let's be real about who's causing crimes, who actually went through what we call due process because no one denied the January 6th insurrectionist of their due process. They went to court. They either plead guilty or were found guilty and they were sent to prison.
▶ 1:02:50And half of them, actually all of them, if their sentences said so, should still be in prison because we as Americans would be safer. We won't get into the fact that another one was already in trouble because they had already killed somebody. But I'll continue on. Right now, our Republican colleagues want to forfeit their constitutional oversight responsibilities. Let's talk about what's actually happening.
▶ 1:03:17In March, we learned that the Trump administration was dismantling the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties and terminating staff at the Office of the Citizenship and Immigration Services AMBuzzman and in the Office of Immigration Detention of Oz Buzzman because they argue quote these offices have obstructed immigration enforcement and quote undermined DHS's mission.
▶ 1:03:47The Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties investigates public complaints about possible violations of civil rights and civil liberties in DHS activities including immigration enforcement and discrimination and in the immigration detention and as ombbuzzman's primary it is their primary responsibility to conduct oversight on conditions at immigration detention So why would the Trump administration want to dismantle offices
▶ 1:04:18tasked with conducting oversight of immigration enforcement and detention facilities? The simple answer is without them there will be no internal oversight offices to assess the legality of the Trump administration's policies on immigration enforcement. So what have the results been since Trump took office in Janu on January 20th? Nine detainees have died in ICE custody.
▶ 1:04:45In fact, in Trump's first month in office, more detainees died in ICE custody than at any time since fiscal year 2020. Congressional Democrats have engaged in oversight activities of immigration facilities across the country.
▶ 1:05:04From Florida, where a 44year-old Haitian woman died in ICE custody, to Newark, New Jersey, where three of our Democratic colleagues visited an immigration detention facility to ensure the humane treatment of detainees. This wasn't about going in and breaking nobody out, y'all. especially when there were cameras rolling everywhere. That's not what they were there to do.
▶ 1:05:34Now, in a breathtaking act of executive obstruction of congressional oversight and the unprecedented weaponization of the Department of Justice, we have an interim US attorney for New Jersey who for years has argued in court that Donald Trump is above the She has announced criminal charges against Congresswoman Maccgyver for quote impeding and interfering with law enforcement.
▶ 1:06:02However, our power as members of Congress to conduct oversight is found in the Constitution and federal In fact, federal law explicitly prohibits DHS from quote preventing a member of Congress from entering for the purpose of conducting oversight any facility operated by or for the Department of Homeland Security used
▶ 1:06:32to detain or otherwise house aliens or to make any temporary modification at any such facility that in any way alters what is observed by a visiting member of Congress. It is against the law. Full stop.
▶ 1:06:51Separately, the court has consistently held that the speech and debate clause of the Constitution protects individual members from prosecution for legislative acts, including quote factf finding, field investigations, and information gathering.
▶ 1:07:08The court has consistently held that the primary purpose of the speech and debate clause is to quote prevent intimidation by the executive and before a possibly hostile judiciary. So let's call this for what it is. This administration is criminalizing legislative oversight and the Republicans on this committee are helping them to do so. Rep. Macyver didn't engage in interference.
▶ 1:07:35It was ICE that engaged in interference while members of Congress attempted to conduct legitimate oversight of ICE Everyone, whether you are American or not, should be deeply disturbed and worried about Trump's abuse of power. They're attacking universities for teaching things they don't like. They're attacking law firms for representing clients that they don't like.
▶ 1:08:04This hearing and these charges are an attempt at political intimidation. The three members in Newark were exercising their constitutional duties to check an outof control executive branch. This entire situation happened because of the unjust arrest of Mayor Baraka. And not only were the members invited in and given a tour of the facility, this was after they so-called had broken the law.
▶ 1:08:34Now, I don't know about y'all, but where I'm from in Texas, I can tell you that I'm not used to having law enforcement see a crime happen right in front of their faces and then say, "Never mind. We'll just go about our business." In fact, why don't you go ahead and come on in? Come on in. We going to do this tour because oops, we did make a mistake because technically by law we are supposed to allow you in. And wait a minute, while you're here, do y'all want something to drink? We got refreshments for you as well.
▶ 1:09:02And then after you conduct this oversight and you actually gave a clean bill of health because you were never there to disrupt, you were always there to do your duty. They came out and they said everything good. And then it wasn't at that moment that they decided to arrest members. It wasn't the next day. In fact, even as I sit here today, no member has been arrested.
▶ 1:09:33Now, you tell me how many times you can see the robber going the bank, steal the money, and then they say, "Well, never mind. We'll think about this later." That is what you call politicizing. And that is what we are here to talk about is wrong. But we got a few other issues with ICE right now. So I'm going to get to them in a second. The DOJ, as I said already, has already dropped the charges against the mayor.
▶ 1:10:03Look, they're coming after everyone who uses their constitutional rights and duties to speak truth to power. The press, the courts, and now members of Congress. And to be perfectly honest, I had my team do the research. Under no other president, Democrat or Republican, can we find an incident where they have tried to arrest members of Congress.
▶ 1:10:28This is absolutely absurd that they were out there simply doing their duty. We have never seen ICE act in this way. In fact, it's not less oversight that we need right now. It's more. In fact, I'm gonna tell you. Actually, I'm not going to tell you. I can show you better than I can tell you. Roll the tape.
▶ 1:10:54Shocking video showing the moment ICE agents smashed a car window and forcibly removed a man in New Bedford. 29year-old Juan Francisco Mendes has no criminal record and was stop definitely a chaotic scene on Eureka Street Thursday as Worcester police and ICE agents detained a mother and her 16-year-old daughter. That girl's face slammed into the ground as she was taken into custody. They have not been identified.
▶ 1:11:22Worcester police said officers were dispatched to the area for a report of a federal agent surrounded by about two dozen people. When police arrived, they say the teen daughter was agents smashed his window and dragged him out while his small children cried in the back seat and his partner recorded the incident.
▶ 1:11:43You can't tell me that somebody in this building shouldn't do their jobs because these people are out of control. You're talking about arresting members of Congress. These masked agents are running around acting this way. This is not okay. This shouldn't be about politics. We all should be on the same side saying we will not stand for this type of activity.
▶ 1:12:11But instead, they want to pretend like it's members of Congress that are the thugs. It's members of Congress that are the ones that are stoking this kind of violence. Let me tell you what those members of Congress were doing. They were trying to make sure that there would not be another mother that would lose her life in ICE custody as it was Mother's Day weekend. They decided that they just wanted to make sure that people were safe because that is who we are supposed to be in this country.
▶ 1:12:39And honestly, for anybody that considers themselves to be a Christian, they should care about treating people in a humane way. And they should also care about due process. Everyone in this country under our constitution is due due process. With that, I will yield. Ranking member yields back. With that, I'll now recognize the chairman of the full committee, the whole committee, Chairman Jim Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:13:08Let's be clear, Republicans have been consistent. We've condemned violence every time it happened. Whether it was last week in New Jersey, whether it was January 6, whether it was the summer of 2020, every single time we said if there's violence, it's wrong. Been nice if the other side had done the thing. Summer 2020, holy cow, police being attacked all over the place. What are they doing? Raising money to bail out the bad guys while they're talking about defunding the police. So, don't give me this that somehow we're being inconsistent.
▶ 1:13:38We have condemned it every single time. 4 years and four months ago today, January 20th, 2021, Joe Biden made three decisions that created this mess in our country that we've had to deal with. He said, "We're no longer going to build the wall. We're no longer going to have remain in Mexico. And when you get here, you will not be detained. You will be released." Guess what? Everybody came. Go figure. 8 million people came into the country. Six million people were released.
▶ 1:14:11Thank goodness for President Trump and his administration. Elected on this issue, elected on this issue. And already his administration has deported over 135,000 criminal illegal aliens. CFPB and Coast Guard have seized 232,000 pounds of drugs at our southern border and the FBI has arrested suspected MS-13 gang members, including high-ranking members in New York and Virginia. That's what enforcing our immigration laws looks like. That's what the president campaigned on.
▶ 1:14:40He's in doing he's doing exactly what he said. And it all happened without any help from the other side. Rather than seeking to protect the people they represent, they're fighting for criminal illegal aliens to stay in this country. Now, think about this, too. First, it was sanctuary cities. Local officials saying, "We're not going to help ICE enforce federal law. Even when they get a detainer, they let them out of the jail when they're trying to come apprehend them." People have been in there.
▶ 1:15:06We had the situation in Denver where the Ilan was in for autotheft, charged with autotheft, aggravated assault, and they said, "We're not going to release him to ICE." ICE had sent a detainer saying, "Give us 48 hours heads up." They gave him 40 minutes. They had to arrest the guy in the parking lot and an ICE agent gets injured. They had to tase. It was bad for the migrant, bad for the law enforcement, and dangers the public. But that's what left-wing policies do. Sanctuary cities.
▶ 1:15:31Then it was sanctuary states, whole states, sanctuary states, and saying, "We're not going to work with federal law enforcement." Then it was judges letting the bad guy out the back door while the good guys are coming in the front door to arrest him. And now we find out it could even be members of Congress. That's what we saw at Delaney Hall a couple weeks ago. Wasn't congressional oversight. ICE is an important job to do. And God bless the men and women who serve in ICE.
▶ 1:16:00They got a tough job. I know we got some here been there. They got a hard job and agitators who obstruct them from doing that part of their job are part of the problem. So, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I want to thank the chairman for his good work in this subcommittee and on this issue in particular and I yield back. Chairman yields back and I was remiss. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today as well. We appreciate you and your time.
▶ 1:16:28With that, I will yield to the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Rascin, for his opening statement. Thank you kindly, Chairman Van Drew, and for your opening statement. Um, this week's events show how MAGA has turned American justice completely upside down and inside out.
▶ 1:16:48Um, over the last week, we've been talking about a single rogue Doge employee who unilaterally canled more million in Department of Justice grants to local law enforcement and victim's organizations and those assisting the victims of rape and sexual assault across the country. That's what right-wing policies do.
▶ 1:17:15I would say to my friend, the chair of the full committee, uh, we tried to restore that money. Nobody seemed to know how any of this happened, but our colleagues didn't utter a word against our amendment, and yet they all voted against it. What else happened?
▶ 1:17:30Well, a 33-year-old January 6th rioter who assaulted our police officers at the capital and he smashed the glass pane through which Ashley Babbot climbed before she was fatally shot by a Capitol officer was arrested again yesterday. This time they got him for burglarizing neighbors homes. This was a guy who was pardoned by President Trump now robbing houses in Virginia.
▶ 1:17:58This Zachary Alam was serving an eight-year sentence after a jury convicted him of seven criminal felonies and three misdemeanors when President Trump granted him clemency as part of the mass pardon of 1600 insurrectionists and riers for the thousands of crimes committed on that day.
▶ 1:18:18At sentencing, US District Court Judge Friedrich described the testimony of police who recalled Alam as quote, "By far the loudest, most combative, and most violent of the January 6 rioters who attacked the police in the part of the capital that these officers were defending.
▶ 1:18:37And yesterday, the Trump Department of Justice agreed to pay nearly $5 million to the family of Ashley Babbot, the rier who tried to storm the House Speaker's lobby on January 6 after she broke into the capital and after the aforementioned Mr. Alam broke that window.
▶ 1:18:59The Department of Justice originally took the position that her wrongful death lawsuit brought by her family was wholly without merit, no basis, and that Babbot civil rights had never been violated by the police, and that the police officer acted reasonably in defense of members of Congress and in defense of Vice President Pence.
▶ 1:19:21A Capitol Police investigation cleared the officer involved, saying his actions at the height of the riot quote, potentially saved members and staff from serious injury and possible death from a large crowd of rioters who had forced their way into the capital into the House chamber where members and staff were steps away.
▶ 1:19:43In 2023, then House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said, "I think the police officer did his job." Now, although Trump's new attorney general is set to give $5 million to the riers's family, Trump is not proposed to give a penny to the more than 140 police officers injured, wounded, hospitalized, disfigured, and/or disabled in their violence, and nothing to their families.
▶ 1:20:10He's proposed no money payments to the bereieved family of officer Brian Siknik, an army veteran with two tours abroad who died at age 42 here on January 7th, 2021, the very next day after being brutalized by rioters.
▶ 1:20:30The decision to give millions of dollars to the Babbot family and nothing to the families of the police officers who defended this capital, who defended us, exacerbates the insult of Speaker Johnson's continuing refusal to hang a simple plaque in honor of the officers who defended the capital and the Congress and the vice president. a plaque mandated by law and now more than two years overdue on the west front of the capital.
▶ 1:21:00The speaker's stubborn refusal to respect the law is craven submission to the executive branch to Donald Trump who wants to pretend that the rampaging mob that he sent to Congress was made up of patriotic heroes and that the people he pardoned were quote hostages and quote political prisoners.
▶ 1:21:21A hostage is someone who's been illegally abducted by a terrorist group like Hamas and held for a financial or political ransom. A political prisoner is someone like Alexi Noni or Nelson Mandela who's been imprisoned for ideological reasons, not for violently assaulting the police or engaging in sedicious conspiracy or destroying federal property.
▶ 1:21:48But the administration's effort to create big news yesterday was Trump's acting US attorney in New Jersey, a blatantly partisan prosecutor who has bragged about working to turn New Jersey red.
▶ 1:22:01Well, she announced her intention to indict our colleague, Congresswoman Lam Monica Macccyver on charges of assaulting, resisting, and obstructing law enforcement based on the now famous May 9th incident outside of Delaney Hall, an ICE detention facility in Macyver's district, where she was conducting a scheduled oversight visit with other members of Congress, including our 80-year-old colleague Bonnie Watson Coleman and the mayor of Newark.
▶ 1:22:30Well, Delaney Hall is operated by the private prison company GEO, a major Republican donor that gave a million dollars to Make America Great Again, Inc., and has faced numerous lawsuits for its treatment of detainees and unsafe conditions. The members had a lawful right to be there and to investigate.
▶ 1:22:49And even after ICE initiated a scuffle to arrest the mayor of Newark on public property, the House members were led in to tour the facility to to conduct non-violent oversight and the tour went smoothly.
▶ 1:23:03This indictment is a manifest fraud, clearly designed to distract America this week from the administration's savage and unpopular effort to strip 14 million Americans of their Medicaid and health coverage and 11 million Americans of Head Start, Meals on Wheels, and other nutritional assistance programs like SNAP.
▶ 1:23:24Representative Mac Mccyver was of course executing one of the core duties of a member of Congress, oversight, pursuant to her precise statutory right to enter and visit an ICE facility. The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that oversight is a central element of the legislative process because if we can't research the facts on the ground, we don't know what laws to pass.
▶ 1:23:51This for the Department of Justice to charge Macyver with assault is an outrage against the Constitution, which protects members of Congress from civil and criminal prosecution for performance of their core legislative duties.
▶ 1:24:06It is also a scandal in light of the DOJ's constant backing of cop beating insurrectionists, including with the shocking policy that these pardons can even apply to criminal charges wholly unrelated to the events of January 6th, as well as the DOJ's jaw-dropping decision to fire more than a dozen senior criminal prosecutors simply because they had worked on the January 6th case.
▶ 1:24:34Yet now we've got colleagues who celebrate January 6 insurrectionists actually calling for prosecution of members of the House for doing their jobs. Representative Buddy Carter called our colleagues rioters. Representative Bishop actually said this was an I didn't know that was in his vocabulary, but this was an insurrection. And he said it was a debacle worse than 9/11. No police officers or ICE agents were injured at Delaney Hall. No one died.
▶ 1:25:04No one had a heart attack like Officer Fenown did. There were no strokes. There were no broken jaws, no broken necks. Nobody was forced out of police work like Sergeant Ganell was. Yet, we've got members of Congress who would gladly jettison the speech and debate clause, which protects all of us in our work, the First Amendment, and the Article One Powers of Congress to score a few cheap political points at the expense of their own colleagues.
▶ 1:25:30In Trump world, violent insurrectionists and cop beating extremists are heroes. They're martyrs. They're patriots. Members of Congress performing oversight functions are criminals and insurrectionists.
▶ 1:25:44and veteran criminal prosecutors of January 6 felons are fired so Donald Trump can continue to pander to his private militia of pardon rioters and insurrectionists and a reserve army of extremists who've proven themselves willing to stand back and stand by. Let me show you what a real assault on police officers looks like.
▶ 1:26:07If you'd roll the tape Mr.
▶ 1:26:55Chairman, if this is an oversight hearing on ICE and ICE believes a real assault took place in New Jersey, where are they? Why are they not present today? The star of the show is absent, and that, my friends, is no oversight. I yield back. Ranking member of full committee yields back. Without objection, Miss Dove from California and Mr.
▶ 1:27:17Garcia from Illinois are permitted to participate in today's hearings for the purpose of questioning the witnesses if a member yields them time for that purpose. And that is true for both Republican and Democrat. With that being said, um, all without objection, all opening statements will be included in the record. We will now introduce today's witnesses. Mr. Andrew Arthur. Mr.
▶ 1:27:45Arthur is a resident fellow in I'm sorry, as a resident fellow in law and policy at the Center for Immigration Studies. He previously served as an immigration judge for nearly nine years as a house staffer, including for this committee and with the Department of Justice. Mr. Charles Marino. Mr.
▶ 1:28:07Marino is a former senior law enforcement advisor at the Department of Homeland Security to then Secretary Janet Npalitano and the founder and CEO of Sentinel, a security and intelligence advisory firm. He is an adjunct professor of national security at the University of South Carolina. Mr. Scott Macowski. Mr.
▶ 1:28:31Macowski is a retired law enforcement officer who served more than 24 years with what was then called the Immigration and Naturalization Services. Don't mean to date you. And US Immigration and Customs Enforcement. When he retired, Mr. Makowski was serving as the deputy director of ICE in the city of New York. Mr. Jason Howser. Mr.
▶ 1:28:56Hower previously served as chief of staff of US Immigration and Customs Enforcement from 2021 to 2023. Prior to that, he served as a senior adviser to the commissioner at Customs and Border Protection, as an assistant director for legislative affairs, and as deputy chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security. We are going to begin by swearing you all in today. Would you please rise and raise your right hand?
▶ 1:29:31Do you solemnly swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief. So help you God. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the in affirmative. Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes.
▶ 1:30:01Mr. Arthur, you may Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Van Drew, Ranking Member Crockett, uh, Chairman Jordan, and Ranking Member Raskin, thank you for inviting me here today. In June, I'll mark my 33rd year of immigration practice. Many of the issues we'll discuss today have been constant during that period, though others are more novel.
▶ 1:30:24One constant is the power of the legislative branch to decide which foreign national should be admitted, which should be removed and which should be detained. The executive branch is duty bound to faithfully execute those laws and until late consistently did so. It was the refusal of the last administration to to detain migrants whom it was required to remove.
▶ 1:30:47And it's granting entry to those Congress expressly stated were inadmissible that triggered the largest migration crisis in this country's history and that facilitated the entry of nearly 8 million clearly inadmissible aliens, most of whom remain. Consequently, the center estimates roughly 15.4 4 million aliens subject to removal are in the United States today.
▶ 1:31:11Polls and post-election analysis indicate the 2024 election was a referendum on those policies with the American people demanding the removal of those here illegally. The best proof of this support is the bipartisan passage of the Lake and Riley Act, the first law passed in this Congress, which constrain border and port releases, but more importantly forced the executive to comply with Congress's criminal detention mandates.
▶ 1:31:39The Trump administration has responded with a threeprong program to drive down the unauthorized population. One, a massive border security effort with Mexico's assistance. two, high-profile operations to apprehend and detain criminal aliens in the interior, and three, encouraging those here illegally to self-deport. Many elected officials at the state, local, and federal levels have pushed back against interior enforcement.
▶ 1:32:08However, the Biden administration argued that strict enforcement impeded its efforts to advance quote equity for all close quote. and many of the president's opponents appear to agree. They also argue that the means the administration is using to enforce the laws have created fear and disrupted communities. It's common for those wanted by the authorities to be anxious.
▶ 1:32:32But to the degree these operations focus on criminals for whom detention and removal is mandated, those operations make communities and immigrant communities in particular safer. Regardless, just last week, Arlington County, Virginia, site of a September 11th terror attack targeting the Pentagon, in which 184 innocent people were murdered, barred local police from notifying ICE whenever those local police arrest terrorists
▶ 1:33:03and human traffickers. Arlington is uh by is far from the only so-called sanctuary Numerous officials I spoke to in California when I was there last month complained about the public safety implications of that state sanctuary law SB54 which hamstring state and local officers in assisting ICE. By law, states and localities are barred from prohibiting uh their cops from communicating with ICE.
▶ 1:33:31And yet that is the purpose of many of those sanctuary policies. Likely the most short-sighted sanctuary schemes, however, attempt to bar ICE from detaining immigrants in state and private facilities in their jurisdictions. The upshot of such policies is that the agency instead must detain those aliens in more enforcementfriendly jurisdictions far away from their families and their attorneys. Respectfully, the heated rhetoric surrounding enforcement is endangering our immigration officers.
▶ 1:34:02Six days ago, two men were arrested on a criminal complaint alleging they caused a car chase in downtown Los Angeles that impeded an endangered ICE officers. Just yesterday in my home state of North Carolina, a man appeared in court on charges that he quote threatened to kill ICE agents and Charlotte Meckllinburgg police department officers if immigration enforcement actions did not stop close quote.
▶ 1:34:29If this continues, people, ICE officers, members of the public, those who seek to impede immigration efforts, are going to get hurt and possibly killed. But this ranker shows no sign of abating. The immigration laws mandate that certain aliens, criminals in particular, be arrested, detained, prosecuted, and usually removed. So long as those laws remain on the books, it's the duty of DHS to fully, faithfully, and yes safely, and humanely enforce those laws.
▶ 1:34:58Efforts to challenge such enforcement should be limited to Congress and the courts and in peaceful discourse and must not risk the lives of the officers themselves or the public as a whole. Thank you, and I look forward to your Thank you, sir. Chairman Jordan, Chairman, Chairman Van Drew, Ranking Member Rascin, and Ranking Member Crockett, and members of the committee.
▶ 1:35:24Thank you for the opportunity to appear today to testify regarding the numerous current threats to ICE operations as the agency along with law enforcement throughout the entirety of the federal government works diligently to ensure the homeland security of the United States and the safety of the American public.
▶ 1:35:44as a former career official with the Department of Homeland Security, working under both Republican and Democratic leadership to help protect the country by creating and implementing Homeland Security policies and programs. I am keenly aware of the everpresent dynamics between politics and the creation of national security strategy, especially in the areas of border security and immigration enforcement.
▶ 1:36:10I continue my work in national security today as a CEO of Sentinel, a global risk and intelligence consulting firm, and as an adjunct professor at the University of South Carolina, teaching future generations the impact of politics on the development of national security strategy. The current volume of threats against the United States remains robust in volume, more diverse in type, and originates from more places than at any time in our history.
▶ 1:36:39And while the threat environment is constantly evolving, what must remain consistent as an essential foundation to secure the homeland is the indisputable need for border security, immigration enforcement, and thorough endto-end vetting of those entering the US to prevent criminal terrorist threats from entering the country.
▶ 1:37:00Unfortunately, the border and immigration policies of the previous administration have undoubtedly made the country less safe by allowing very dangerous criminals and national security threats to enter the country, directly undercutting the very purpose for creating the Department of Homeland Security, subverting the statutory responsibilities of the Border Patrol, ICE, and practically every other agency tasked with protecting the homeland, and making their jobs exponentially more dangerous.
▶ 1:37:30In addition to these known and in some cases unknown physical violent threats to the everyday mission of law enforcement and the American people, we are also dealing with the impact of politics on a mission that should universally be supported, enforcing the law in the effort to safeguard the country.
▶ 1:37:50inept policies and political positions of sanctuary cities, for example, which fly in the face of common sense when it comes to protecting law-abiding citizens also creates more dangerous conditions for federal agents enforcing the immigration laws of the country and for all of law enforcement for that matter.
▶ 1:38:07political positions of not allowing state and local law enforcement to support ICE operations, no cash bail, and the release of violent repeat offenders, including those in the country illegally who should be prioritized for deportation, creates a protective shield for the most dangerous criminals from other countries in the US illegally.
▶ 1:38:28It also endangers lives when politicians alert their communities of ICE operations or when they offer guidance to illegal migrants regarding how to evade ICE. It also further promotes to the community uh that in some cases they may do the same. There must be bipartisan agreement when it comes to the protection of the country and support for those who enforce the rule of law for no civilized society has survived without it.
▶ 1:38:56There must also be universal consensus that despite political policy objections, elected officials at all levels must be held accountable when crossing the red line of obstruction and assault of law enforcement officials. What we saw in New Jersey at the Laney Hall detention center was not congressional oversight. It was an ambush and it was violent obstruction and it cannot be tolerated by this body.
▶ 1:39:23As I've discussed, there are enough threats against this country against law- abiding citizens and the abilities to safely conduct ICE operations. There should not be additional threats originating from elected leaders against those doing their jobs. A job that the American people voted overwhelmingly in favor of them doing. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Mr. Marino. Mr.
▶ 1:39:51Macowski, you may Good morning, Chairman Vandrew, Ranking Member Crockett, Chairman Jordan, and Ranking Member Raskin. I'm honored to appear before you today. My name is Scott Macowski, and I proudly served this nation for two decades as a law enforcement officer and with uh the United States military. I retired from service from DHS in 2018 as a deputy field office director in New York City.
▶ 1:40:21My views are personal, shaped by 24 years of frontline duty and 34 years in the US Army. Today, I speak not just from experience, but from urgency. ICE detention centers and ERO's mission are not optional. They are essential to the rule of law. Without them, our immigration system and our communities collapse into chaos. ERO's mission is straightforward.
▶ 1:40:48protect communities by arresting, removing individuals who pose threat to public safety or who violate federal immigration law. I spent years targeting targeting the most dangerous elements in our nation, MS-13 gang members, drug traffickers, human right violators, fugitives. These were not theoretical threats. These were real people with real histories of violence and harm.
▶ 1:41:17Operations like Operation Matador and All-In were successful because they were strategically designed, intelligence-driven, and supported by strong federal infrastructure and funding, including detention beds. Immigration detention is not punitive. It is a lawful tool to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings and final orders of removal. Yet, 1.4 4 million of those ordered removed are still roaming free.
▶ 1:41:45A population that drives the need for more bed space. Over 60% of ISIS detained population is held under mandatory detention laws. Individuals with criminal records, flight risks, and even those that pose threat to national security. Detention is about guaranteeing aliens appear in court and that their rights are respected.
▶ 1:42:10It's also important to note that attorneys, family members can visit families and provide support and that removal orders once lawful and final can be carried out responsibly. Effective GPS monitoring known as the ISAP program is useful to ensure high-risisk cases are able to be to be held in detention um when detention beds are fully utilized. Now, let's talk about Newark.
▶ 1:42:38What what occurred at Delaney Hall in New York recently was not civil disobedience. It was chaos. I've seen this before in New York. I personally witnessed a high-profile arrest spiral into pandemonium when protesters misinformed and misled physically blocked a medically necessary EMS transfer. They endangered the detainees life, the officer's life, the general public's life, and ICE personnel.
▶ 1:43:08The Newark protest, which led to the arrest of City Mayor Ross Baraka, echoed that same recklessness. These actions just don't disrupt operations. They escalate risk, threaten lives, and turn lawful enforcement into a spectacle. Protest is a constitutional right with interfering with lawful enforcement is not. Local non-ooperation laws, including sanctuary city policies, compound this threat.
▶ 1:43:35When local authorities refuse to share information or deny access, it drives enforcement into uncontrolled environments, homes, streets, workplaces. And that's where the danger multiplies. It also increases cost and delays removal while weakening victim protections, intelligence sharing, and coordination. Consider this. Nearly 8 million aliens are on the non-detain docket today.
▶ 1:44:03Fewer than 50,000 are in custody. When we demonize detention or defund its alternatives, we paralyze the system. We hand over the reigns to not justice but chaos. To the members of the subcommittee, I urge you to look beyond rhetoric. The men and women of ICE are doing a job that was mandated by Congress.
▶ 1:44:27Acting director for ICE Todd Lions has been relentless in his efforts a top an agency that was abolished from within by the last administration. He's maximizing limited resources to enforce law again as Congress intended. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Macowski. Mr. Hower, you may begin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee or the subcommittee.
▶ 1:44:57Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I'm here to speak plainly about something I care deeply about. The safety and integrity of ICE officers who serve our country on the front front lines of immigration enforcement. I had the honor and priv privilege of serving as ICE chief of staff during a time of immense pressure and operational demand. I've seen firsthand the complexity and danger of the job. ICE officers perform their duties with courage and they deserve policies that support not endanger them.
▶ 1:45:27Unfortunately, that is not what is happening today. The current administration has expanded interior enforcement in ways that not just are overreaching, but are reckless. They're targeting people without criminal records, shutting down legal pathways, and revoking protections. The result, more arrests of noncriminals. These numbers might look good on press releases, but they put officers at greater risk, erode public trust in the agency, and make real enforcement harder.
▶ 1:45:57ICE operations are the most complex in federal law enforcement and should be respected. A simple arrest in ICE does not equate directly to more detained in ICE custody. Additionally, it does not equate cleanly to removals. And this sort of narrative needs to be stopped. The White House is driving directives and policy through political theater. This is short-sighted and dangerous.
▶ 1:46:26It serves backlash that makes it harder for ICE to go after actual threats, violent offenders, cartel members, and traffickers. And it doesn't stop there. The administration is pulling in officers from other agencies from across the federal law enforcement, CBP, and the Department of Homeland Security, creating gaps. And those officers are not highly skilled or trained in interior immigration enforcement that weakens our border security and turns immigration enforcement into a shell game.
▶ 1:46:56Worse still, ICE is now expected to to take on and manage an vast expansion of of cooperation and oversight of local law enforcement carrying out immigration enforcement. This expansion creates confusion, legal risk, and potential for real harm. It expands the administrative burdens on ICE officers and takes them away from their public safety operations. All this is stressing our resources and making the system more chaotic.
▶ 1:47:24Beds and detention centers are limited. When they're filled with noncriminals, that space isn't there for dangerous offenders. We clog the system with cases that go nowhere because many of these individuals can't even be removed. They're protected by law, have claims pending, or come from countries that won't take them back. It's not enforcement. It's theater. It's a churn that misleads the public, burns out the workforce, and accomplishes very little. Let me be clear. I support vigorous enforcement within ICE.
▶ 1:47:55However, strength comes from strategy, not rounding up the wrong people for the wrong reasons. When ICE is turned into a blunt political tool, offers officers are the ones who suffer. Much like we saw at Delaney Hall, they're the fa they're the face the public sees. They're the ones caught on video. When a mother is arrested in front of her kids, it's the officer, not the policymaker, who carries out that weight.
▶ 1:48:23This undermines morale within ICE, it damages trust and it puts lives in danger. So, what can we do? Congress has a role and the subcommittee can help restore balance and safety. We need to codify enforcement priorities so officers focus on real threats. We must prohibit untrained law enforcement officers that are not trained in immigration enforcement from carrying out ICE and ERO's job.
▶ 1:48:47We must require ICE to adopt modern transparency tools like body warrant cameras like we saw at use at Delaney Hall supporting program. We also need to support programs that reduce the need for at large arrests protecting the officer and the migrants. And we also must protect ICE officers from threats specifically like doxing with real legal safeguards.
▶ 1:49:11We also need to stop polling agents from vital investigations like human trafficking and drug smuggling to chase landscapers and line cooks that do not have final orders of removal and are most likely from countries that they cannot be removed to. In short, ICE needs a clear mission, one based on law, safety, and common sense, not political showmanship. I'm proud of the men and women who I served with at ICE, and I would serve them again.
▶ 1:49:39They deserve better, and the American people deserve an immigration system that works for everyone. We owe that to the taxpayer. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Thank you, Mr. Hower. We're now going to proceed under the fiveminute rule with questions. I will start by recognizing the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly appreciate all the witnesses being here today.
▶ 1:50:04During Trump's first 100 days, ICE arrested 67,000 illegal aliens and removed almost 66,000 from this country. Of those, 50,000 were criminal illegal illegal aliens, either with a criminal record or facing criminal charges. Mr. Arthur, what categories of aliens are generally held in ICE detention? Generally, it's criminals.
▶ 1:50:29Uh, individuals who are subject to mandatory detention because of crimes under sections 236 C uh and 241 A2 in addition to individuals who are apprehended entering the United States subject to mandatory detention under section 235B. Okay. And Mr. Macowski, this may be something I don't know, you maybe can help me understand, but my understanding was when folks came across the border here, the background check we did didn't really go back to their home country.
▶ 1:50:57So, how do we eventually identify those? In other words, we're looking for crimes they committed in the United States, but we don't know if from Guatemala, wherever they came from. How is it that we eventually figure that out? And uh why is it that we don't know when they're coming? This Mr. Picowsky or Mr. either one, Marina, whoever may have the answer to that. Well, the problem has been the lack of thorough vetting for any of these illegal migrants that have been allowed to come into the United States.
▶ 1:51:25So, never mind the countries of origin that often times can't be verified. We don't even know who these individuals are. And we know that trickles down all the way to the unaccompanied minors. with the lack of DNA testing that was done away with early in the Biden administration, we now have, you know, well over 350,000 uh that are missing within the interior of the country. So, this becomes a guessing game now for authorities who are trying to rectify this system under the Trump administration.
▶ 1:51:55It's challenging. And then when you finally do discover the countries of origin, sometimes they don't want to accept uh these illegal migrants back. You know, one thing I found fairly interesting is when I went to the border, we saw thousands of IDs thrown down south of the border. In other words, folks coming in, they had an ID in hand and they tossed it on the ground before they come across.
▶ 1:52:16And talking about the 350,000 children that the Biden administration lost, we don't know where they're at, where they're what they're being trafficked into, but I I had an individual who came across, he was 31 years old. He identified as an unaccompanied minor and raped a 14-year-old girl in a restaurant in a restroom in our and and he already had a criminal record. But it was is it amazing to me that we didn't know his record when he came here. But then when you go see the border and you see all these thousands of IDs laying across that southern border, they don't want you to know who they are when they're coming here.
▶ 1:52:46And so Mr. Author, why is the why are these ICE detention centers? Why are they so very important? ICE detention is absolutely crucial for the enforcement of the law. uh ICE detention serves the uh two purposes. One, ensuring that individuals will show up for their uh immigration proceedings and the removal, but more importantly to ensure that individuals who pose a danger to the community aren't allowed to be in the community while we go through that process.
▶ 1:53:12In fact, any individual who is eligible for bond can ask for bond if they don't have a crime. They can ask for bond from an immigration judge. I heard thousands of these cases. If they didn't pose a danger to the community and they weren't a flight risk, they were eligible for bond. Otherwise, they'd be detained because they're not going to show up. Mr. Macowski, you said you retired in 2018 from ICE. What was it like then compared to what you've heard from your colleagues in the last few years?
▶ 1:53:38What what how does the morale what's going on and what are what are they seeing on the streets? Thank you for the question, Um my experience was ICE officers are are out there every day doing the job that Congress mandated. It's codified. I I mean there's funding for it. There's directives that come directly from Congress and the men and women are out there every single day. And so when you say codified, it's the law. Yes, sir.
▶ 1:54:08And so it always amazes me that how when we're enforcing certain laws, everybody comes up in arms. But it it to me it's just a matter of we are trying to enforce the laws on the books. You guys, the the officers on the street are trying to do what Congress has mandated. So what are you seeing with the morale now? Was it better? I assume it would have been better in 2018. Um yes, sir. The they felt under the last administration they were totally abandoned, left out to dry. Uh it was it was a field day. They they weren't doing their jobs.
▶ 1:54:38They were sitting there. Nobody nobody really cared. The meaning the the the people there felt like ICE was literally abolished without an actual order from Congress abolishing ICE. So So I'm running out of time, but so the same party that wanted to defund the police have basically attacked ICE for doing their job. Absolutely, sir. Thank you. I yield back. Gentleman from Alabama leads back. I will recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson.
▶ 1:55:09Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, we've got a lot of people out here in the audience, and if you came in support to show your support for Representative Lam Monica Macyver, would you stand up, please? Okay, that looks like around uh 60 folks. Thank y'all for coming. And you may be seated. And let the record reflect, Mr.
▶ 1:55:33Chairman, uh, the vast number of people who came in support of Representative Lam Monica Macyver. Without objection, the Trump administration has weaponized justice using the Department of Injustice to carry forward an assault on liberty. Trump has threatened and intimidated a number of lawyers and powerful law firms into submission. He has put powerful institutions of higher learning under his thumb.
▶ 1:56:02and he has forced powerful media companies to bow down and kiss ring. Now he's threatening and trying to intimidate his adversaries in elective office. Last month, Trump's Department of Injustice arrested a female judge doing her job at the courthouse in Milwaukee. They then arrested the mayor of Newark, Newark in the same city that he leads.
▶ 1:56:29And now yesterday they have filed charges against a member of the House of Representatives. And today we are engaged in a pre-planned hearing entitled quote examining threats to ICE operations end quote while producing a highly prejuditial expertly edited video published to taint the jury pool and shape a false narrative on Representative Macyver's actions.
▶ 1:56:57MAGA Republicans are using this hearing to justify the charges against her. And in support of the charges, they publish more video that demonizes people being held in private for-profit ICE detention facilities. What is really happening is that Trump and his MAGA enablers are misusing their positions of power to prosecute people who refuse to lay down and get run over as they assault our liberties.
▶ 1:57:28And they are trying to intimidate members of Congress from performing our duties. That's why we are really here today. Last night, Trump's personal attorney, who he appointed to be interim United States Attorney for New Jersey, blatantly abused her authority to target a sitting congresswoman who had been roughed up by armed maskwearing ICE agents, males.
▶ 1:57:56This interim US attorney targeted my colleague, but just because Representative Macyver had the audacity to do her job rather than taking the Trump administration's word that everything was fine. Members of Congress have the legal authority to visit ICE facilities so that we can perform oversight. It's one of the things we are elected to do.
▶ 1:58:20But this administration has become increasingly authoritarian and will not tolerate anyone asking questions. That's why Trump and my Republican colleagues call for the impeachment of any judge who rules against this administration. It is why the Trump administration targets students who expressed dissent.
▶ 1:58:43And it's why Trump muzzled the big law firms that previously stood up for civil liberties and have now agreed to stay quiet and do his bidding. The Trump administration continues to abandon the Constitution and the Department of Justice continues to politicize the pursuit of justice. They've come after judges, mayors, members of Congress, and our neighbors and our communities. Who's next? Is it you?
▶ 1:59:11Representative MacGyver has her legal rights. They threaten her and in threatening her they threaten us. No one is safe once you can be targeted just for asking questions and trying to ensure that the government is following the law. Now, Mr. Hower.
▶ 1:59:29Right now, our MAGA Republicans are trying to pass a massive spending bill that would increase the national debt by $3.3 trillion and give ICE a staggering $73 billion to build more private for-profit detention facilities.
▶ 1:59:46Can you please explain how this massive cash infusion and especially the $45 billion expansion of immigration detention is neither wise, strategic, or safe, sir, that it clearly shows the need for oversight as they expand detention. You're going to outsize the need of what ICE actually needs operationally.
▶ 2:00:11Additionally, it will take deportation officers off the streets and now will be in these facilities. So, actually making us less safe. Additionally, the idea that you're going to detain 100 to $150,000 people and and spend 404 $45 billion or $70 billion to do it. If you took that same money and just put it to fix the broken immigration system now, you could hire thousands of individuals that could be adjudicating cases, immigration judges, resettlement services.
▶ 2:00:41Sir, quite frankly, you could give a couple billion dollars to a country to take some of the migrants back themselves and they would go. The idea that you're going to put this into detention and that will fix the system is a bit absurd. Well, they want the billions. Gentleman's time is expired. Political supporters pocket books. The gentleman's time is expired. Gentleman yields back. Okay. And I recognize the gentleman from the great state of Texas, Mr. Gil. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 2:01:09Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing today um on what I believe to be one of the most probably the most important issue that our country faces right now, which is illegal immigration. Uh Mr. Hower, I've got a few questions for you. You were chief of staff for ICE, is that correct? Yes, sir. What years were you there? Uh 2021 to 2023. So that was during the Biden administration. Is that right? Yes, sir. Got it. So presumably you're wellversed in border security and im immigration enforcement.
▶ 2:01:39Is that right? Yes, sir. I would say that I'm very I also worked at CBP under the Obama administration. Yes, sir. Got it. So you've got a lot of experience there. Can I ask you a few questions? In an interview with the Daily Blast on February 28th, 2024, you mentioned, quote, "You can't deter and punish your way to lowering encounters at the border." End quote. Do you think you were right or wrong about that? Uh, 100%, sir. Um, what we've seen 100% what? Right or wrong. 100% I was correct. You were correct about that. Yes, sir.
▶ 2:02:08The idea that you just dismantle an immigration system is not There was a mandate to the Trump administle alien border encounters are down 95% right now. I think you were wrong about that. You also said, quote, "The idea that you can turn off the border is just not factual." Do you think that was right or wrong, sir? The threats that we're still seeing across the border right or wrong about that statement. My question is, were you right or wrong about that statement? When you turn off immigration system, sir, yes, you will not see encounters. Yes.
▶ 2:02:37Well, southwestern border encounters are at a 15-year low under President Trump. Um, another thing that you mentioned, quote, just shutting off the border to asylum seekers is not going to do that, meaning close the border. What I think is going to do that is make it more erratic and sporadic for the sort of large surges of migrants you would see coming across the border. Do you think that was right or wrong? 100% correct. It was correct, sir. We're going to see that over the next couple years.
▶ 2:03:04Border border apprehensions are down now because President Trump has secured our border. stopped the flow of illegal aliens coming across our border and coming to our border. Do you you think that you think that we have a better or worse border situation now than we did under Joe Biden? Sir, I believe the border is secure. You believe the border is secure? That's right. But you were wrong about a lot of other things about what would secure the border. Is that right? No, sir. It's only been 100 years.
▶ 2:03:32You were wrong about what it would take to stop the flow of illegal aliens coming into the United States. you were wrong that secure enforcement that we're seeing under President Trump would stop the flow of illegal aliens. You you ought to keep that in mind as you're going to the media off about the president. Can I answer that question? Let me ask you another question. This is from a New York Times uh op-ed that you wrote just a month ago. Yes, sir.
▶ 2:03:55You you mentioned, quote, "Federal law enforcement under President Trump is engaged in dangerous political theater." What about President Trump's law enforcement do you think is dangerous political theater? Do you think that Seeing 235,000 lb of political point is a problem. Do you think seizing fentanel at our border is dangerous political theater? Do you know who Gilberto Aila Jara is? So that's exactly where ICE should have their resources focused.
▶ 2:04:21That's exactly what we did and he was arrested last month and charged with over 20 sex crimes against minors. These were the kind of people that Joe Biden and under your leadership are coming into our country months doesn't make us more safe. Taking HSI agents away from drug interdiction, including taking murderers and rapists off our streets makes the American people more safe. It's your testimony that taking murderers and rapists off our streets does not make us more safe.
▶ 2:04:48What we have heard from this administration is over the next few months, there's going to be thousands of law enforcement focused on noncriminal migrants. Wily, you were you were wrong about a lot of things. I don't put a whole lot of stock into that candidly, and I don't think the American people do either. Do you support No, sir. Do you support amnesty for illegal aliens? No, sir. In this New York Times article, you wrote, quote, "That means that the best solution for public safety is not mass deportations. It's giving undocumented immigration." I'm speaking right now.
▶ 2:05:17This is my time, not yours. I'm speaking. It's giving undocumented immigrants who have been in the United States for a long time the opportunity to come forward, pay a fine, and gain legal status. That sounds a lot like amnesty to me, doesn't it, to you? a processor under the law that could exercise and allow them to come out of the shadows and then focus on that's what amnesty is. This is this is a a deliberate semantic obfiscation and you know it and I know it and the American people know it as well. Do you think that illegal aliens should be given welfare once they get amnesty?
▶ 2:05:49Sir, that's not my department. You've got you've got a lot of opinions on a whole lot of different things. You don't have an opinion on where I've worked for 20 years, sir. Yes, sir. And finally, let me ask you, do you think that Biden was successful at stopping illegal There was there was there was failures at the beginning of the Biden administration to deal with the flow of migrants postco and then there was failures of implementation of policies across all of the immigration system. That's the same problems we're seeing now.
▶ 2:06:17The idea that you can enforce your way out of immigration and the challenges that we see across the Western Hemisphere, it's not going to work. We had an open border under Biden. The border is secure now. I think that's a successful Trump policy and a failure of the Biden administration. I yield my time back. Thank you. Gentleman yields back. With that, stay tuned. You ready? As ready as I'm ready. Okay.
▶ 2:06:47Uh I yield to the gentle lady from the great state of Texas, the ranking member of the subcommittee, Miss Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and Mr. Hower, um, thank you so much for your service. I do want to make sure that we are clear on your credentials because you actually have them. I have that you were the assistant director of legislative affairs at Homeland Security, correct? At one time, yes, ma'am. You were 15 years ago. You were deputy chief of staff at Homeland as well. Yes, ma'am.
▶ 2:07:14You served as a senior adviser to the commission as Homeland's custom and border protections. Yes, ma'am. As well as you recently served as the chief of staff for ICE. Yes, ma'am. Okay. So, you've done a few things. I'm also a combat veteran. Yes, ma'am. Okay. Well, thank you for your service and always here. Listen, I I have a a series of issues of what's going on because I will say that the Republicans were right. Democrats lost on immigration.
▶ 2:07:41When you look at all the polling, when you talk to people, they lost on immigration. And frankly, I am concerned that we did not have conversations that went beyond just talking about the humanity because there are people that literally don't care about humanity. Um, which is why we are able to have this administration doing the things that they're doing. Talking about the fact that border crossings are down 95%. Well, I don't know if I can trust that number or not. You know why? Because first of all, they've been going out.
▶ 2:08:09They've been firing all of uh the persons that usually deal with data, science, and facts all over in all agencies. In addition to the fact that even if that is a real number, we don't know if they got to that number just because, well, this is a lawless administration that is consistently in violation of people's constitutional rights, the constitution in and of itself, court orders. So we can't really explain exactly why and how even if that is true.
▶ 2:08:39And at some point in time you have to say there is a balancing test. Either we are going to follow the law fully or we're not at all. And frankly what I've seen out of this administration is that they don't want to follow the law. But there is something that you said in your opening remarks that really stuck with me. There was a line that I that I wrote down. You said line cooks and landscapers. Now, I have talked to those that are in construction.
▶ 2:09:08I have talked to those that are farmers. I have talked to a lot of people that have said that because of the reckless acts of so many of these ICE agents, they can't even get their workers to show up to work because of what they're doing. Now, you correct me if I'm wrong. As somebody that practiced criminal law, I I never saw that we needed ICE to go and arrest somebody say for murder.
▶ 2:09:37Is ICE the only agency that has the authority to arrest somebody say if they go out and commit murder? No, ma'am. They're not. But what what about aggravated robbery? No, ma'am. What about rape? No, ma'am. Okay. So, so in fact, nine times out of 10, the primary arresting agency when it comes to say committing a crime such as aggravated robbery, rape, murder, would that be ICE?
▶ 2:10:04Would that be the primary arresting and investigatory agency to do that in the first place? No, ma'am. Okay. All right. So, I I just wanted to make sure I was on the right page because I get a little confused sometimes when we're around here. Now, we have talked about a lot of the kind of back and forth between the branches and this idea of um checks and balances seems to escape certain folk in the chamber.
▶ 2:10:30And so, I really want to ask you just a couple of questions to make sure I'm not the one that has lost my marbles. Who has the right to conduct over? Or let me ask you this way. Does Congress have the power to conduct federal oversight over detention facilities? Yes, ma'am. And quite frankly bit of confusion that I've been hearing today.
▶ 2:10:50Oversight by Congress is of course mandated by law but additionally oversight also not only in the immigration space protects the migrants but also protects law enforcement and through public safety in making sure they have the resources they need.
▶ 2:11:05In my position over 15 years at the department, I oversaw hundreds of visits by congressional members, advocacy groups, immigration groups, law enforcement groups, and in no way did I ever see the sort of situation that we saw in Delaney Hall where there was a powder cake driven by the political theater being driven by the White House. That's exactly right. And that's actually why I wanted to make sure I talked about the fact that you had credentials and you've actually been in this space. That was not normal.
▶ 2:11:31and the idea that they would somehow say that it's their colleagues that the were the ones that were driving it, which is why I made sure that I showed video footage of Representative Mcverly telling them why she was there. And frankly, it is sad that we do have to go through this kind of political theater because listen, we all know what it is. That's why they hired everybody from Fox News because all they trying to do is put on for a show. This is not the apprentice show.
▶ 2:11:58This is supposed to be about the American people and I want us to start to refocus our attention on the American people and stop demonizing every dag on person that ends up in custody of ICE because they are not necessarily demons just because ICE decided to round them up. So, thank you for your testimony. Did I answer that question? No.
▶ 2:12:19The gentle lady yields The committee will be in order. The committee will be in order. I understand your enthusiasm, but we have rules in the way we run the committee for both sides of the aisle. With that being said, I will recognize the gentleman from the great state of Ohio, the chairman of the whole judiciary committee, Congressman Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
▶ 2:12:48Macowski, who are all these people in ICE detention facilities that Democrats went on the street? Who are who are these folks? Are they all just apple pie asylum seeking folks or who who else might be in there? Sir, thank you for the question. Um, first and foremost, they're immigration law violators. Um, they violated the the basic laws, the immigration laws that are codified by Congress. I'll say it again. So, they broke the law. Yes, sir. That's number first and foremost. They're not a United States citizen. Any of them violent? In addition to breaking the law, any of them violent people inside these detention centers?
▶ 2:13:18Absolutely, sir. Any of them gang members? Absolutely, sir. Any of them members of MS-13? Absolutely, sir. Any of them trendy Arabwa gang members? Again, sir. Yes. So, they're not just all warm and fuzzy folks that the Democrats want out on the street, right? They're bad guys. Some of them are bad guys. Really bad guys. Some of them are just asylum see. But some of them are really bad guys. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. It's fair to say. Yeah. Because you worked in these facilities. Is that right? I've worked in them, sir. Yes. You know them better than anyone in this in this hearing room. Is that fair to say?
▶ 2:13:49Yes, sir. Okay. And before they go to detention, they have to get apprehended somewhere. They have to get arrested or taken into custody by ICE. Is that right? Yes, sir. You got to get them somewhere. Maybe it's on the border. Maybe it's somewhere else. Uh but you have to get them before you take them to the ICE detention facility. Yes, sir. Okay.
▶ 2:14:07Now, did you ever think that you would see Democrat mayors in all kinds of urban areas around this country tell and Democrat city councils pass resolutions say, "Don't work with ICE when they come to apprehend gang members, bad guys, MS13 violent offenders." Did you ever think you'd see Not here in the United States, sir. But that's exactly what's happening around the country, isn't it? Yes, sir.
▶ 2:14:36in my in I'm sorry in my home state of New Jersey. Uh it's that's fact. Yeah. It's happened to everyone. New Jersey, Denver, Boston, you name it. It's happened. And did you ever think you'd see governors and state legislators do the same thing and say, "You know what? Our whole darn state is going to be a sanctuary state. Don't work with ICE when they're coming to enforce the law." Did you ever think you'd see that? No, sir.
▶ 2:15:01Did you ever think Did you ever think you would see judges in their chambers tell the bad guy, "Hey, talk to his lawyer, hey, slip out the back door cuz the ICE agents are coming in the front door to enforce federal law." Did you ever think you'd see that? No, sir. And did you ever think you would see what happened last week or two weeks ago, I should say, in New Jersey?
▶ 2:15:26Did you ever think you'd see members of Congress engaged in that kind of Sir, um after what I witnessed in 2018, yes, in New York City, uh I didn't put it past anybody, but uh I find that behavior uh to be absurd. Uh it's Well, in other words, Mr. M, it's gotten so bad. Nothing surprises you now with what the left's going to do. Nothing, sir. I know. And that's where the American people are, and that's why they appreciate what the Trump administration is doing.
▶ 2:15:54Why is it better to arrest people at the jails or at the courthouse, Mr. Macowski than it is out on the street. Why is that better? I believe my colleague had touched on it, but it's much safer for the the the alien, the person involved. Um, and it's also safer for the general public. Most most importantly, the officers. The rule of thumb is safety first. Safer for everyone, right? Yes, sir. It's safer for everyone.
▶ 2:16:22safer for the migrant, safer for law enforcement, safer for the general public because you don't want to happen what has happened already because of the crazy left-wing policies that some of these cities and states and now judges have when you could be you could and you could send two it's cheaper for the taxpayers. Instead of sending six guys to arrest them on the street, you can send two guys to get him at the courthouse or at the jail. But that side says no, we're for the sanctuary policies. We're for making it tougher on law enforcement.
▶ 2:16:52We're for endangering the community. We're for making it tougher on the migrant and going out and arresting them on the street. Really one of the craziest things I've ever heard. Would you agree, Mr. Macowski? Yes, sir. And to your point, uh we talk about sanctuary cities. Uh and my colleague was mentioning like deportation officers need to be on the street. Imagine if they would just honor detainers. they rolled over into custody and I could send people over there to pick them up in a facility, not taking the officers away from an enforcement action.
▶ 2:17:23Okay. So, um deportation officers are are very vital. Yes. Um and you know the the peaceful transfer from one facility to the other. It's just common sense. No, we call that in economics you call that opportunity cost, right? Because it's safer for the officer, safer for for the public, safer for the migrant. But it also when you have to send six of them out on the street, there's the opportunity lost that you now have four extra agents there when they could be out doing other good work protecting the public.
▶ 2:17:49That's how dumb, there's no other word for it, how dumb this whole sanctuary policy is. Thank you for your work. The chairman from Ohio yields back. I recognize the gentleman, the ranking member from the great state of Maryland, Mr. Rasin. And thank you, Chairman Van Drew.
▶ 2:18:09Um, even ICE and the Department of Homeland Security recognize that quote, "Any member of Congress has the right to show up for an inspection at one of our facilities in their oversight capability." Mr. Hower, is that the general policy that you know? Yes, sir. Okay. Um, ICE has also uh along with lots of other parts of the administration uh has been repudiated by the federal judiciary including the Supreme Court.
▶ 2:18:34There now more than 160 preliminary injunctions and temporary restraining orders that have been entered by federal judges, Republican appointees, Democratic appointees against a reign of lawlessness and complete disregard for the Constitution. Um, President Trump has had to be instructed uh to bring back a man who the Department of Justice admitted had been deported due to an administrative error.
▶ 2:19:01He was sent to a torturer's prison in El Salvador due to what they confessed was administrative uh error. Um do you agree that uh ICE has been violating the law um repeatedly over the last few months? Sir, I would say the administration and the White House has been directing lawless action.
▶ 2:19:22The US Supreme Court even had to issue an emergency order at 1 in the morning on April 19th to stop an unlawful attempt by the administration to conduct a mass deportation of Venezuelans without any due process whatsoever. They told them to turn the the vans and the buses around. There had been no hearings, no opportunity to be represented, no opportunity to hear even the charges against them, no court orders.
▶ 2:19:48Uh and just this last Friday, the Supreme Court upheld this ban on deportations, reaffirming once again that every immigrant in the country is entitled to process. The two most beautiful words in the English language. It's due process that separates our rights and freedoms from arbitrary power by the state. And if you have a a single libertarian bone in your body, you will understand what due process is all about.
▶ 2:20:17Now, uh, why is congressional oversight important, Mr. H Hower, if the courts are there as a backs stop against lawlessness by an executive uh branch?
▶ 2:20:32Sir, Congress's role, especially in immigration enforcement, is extremely critical for just the simple fact that we have tens of thousands of human beings in custody and their care and the carrying out of our public safety and our law enforcement operations need critical oversight and accountability. So, when you were chief of staff at ICE, how many congressional delegations would you say happened at ICE facilities? Hundreds, sir.
▶ 2:21:00And as we've all talked about, we saw large demands and migratory flow to the border. We were dealing with bipartisan, you know, visits continuously week after these were Democrats and Republicans together coming to visit. Um, so there's nothing strange about members of Congress doing it. Both parties have done it, right? No, sir. Um, did anything like what just occurred at Delaney Hall where members of Congress were pushed and manhandled and threatened with arrest and there was a melee?
▶ 2:21:28Did anything like that ever happen in your experience? No sir. And what I saw there was sort of this distilling of what I consider the the direction of of enforcement, immigration enforcement in the political theater of this. That that was the outcome that some people in the White House wanted. And they're putting that pressure both on the non-migrants that are noncriminal that don't have finals order removal and also on the ICE officers.
▶ 2:21:53Well, you mentioned the phrase political theater several times and that's interesting to me because I remember uh at the end of the Biden administration when there was a struggle to get the two parties together and there was agreement a bipartisan agreement on uh legislation at the border and you had the most conservative Republicans in the Senate hailing it and saying it's a huge breakthrough.
▶ 2:22:17You had liberal Democrats getting behind it and everybody was saying, "Well, it's not perfect, but we'll do this." And it was sailing through the Senate. It's coming over to the House. And then President Trump, uh, former President Trump at that point announced he was totally opposed to it. He didn't want border legislation. He wanted a border crisis to run against. In other words, he wanted political theater. I wonder, was that your perception of that same episode? Absolutely, sir.
▶ 2:22:43And when you watch the videos of what happened at Delaney Hall, ICE officers are trained from the beginning of when they enter the agency on assessing threat and risk and clearly and they sort of apply that threat and risk to what they carry out in operations and I believe everybody on this planet would agree that then they allowed the congresswoman to then enter the facility and take the tour.
▶ 2:23:06So the idea that there was outside political pressure or influence directed at ICE agents and it created this powder keg of what happened there is pretty clear and logical to me. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time's up. I thank the ranking member. I am going to yield five minutes to myself. So, you know, I like to keep things simple sometimes. You know, I'm from Jersey, too.
▶ 2:23:30Uh, and sometimes simple truths really kind of display more complex truths as well. So, I think there's a few simple truths and let me I'm going to ask all of you and I'm going to ask for a really quick like yes or no answer.
▶ 2:23:45I believe open borders, sanctuary cities, and sanctuary states where you're releasing individuals back into the community, including dangerous criminals who have been guilty and have committed crimes like rape on minors, like murder, like disfigurement, like dealing and selling drugs, just to name a few, like gun violating gun laws, all that.
▶ 2:24:15I think that's really bad. I don't think we should let that happen. Let's really get down to what it this is all about. In the last administration, we let people like that come across the border and come into the United States of America. Would you agree with me that that's bad? Mr. Arthur, quickly, yes or no? Yes, I do, sir. Mr. Marino, yes. Mr. Macowski, yes or no? Absolutely, sir. Mr. Hower, yes or no? Okay. So, that's something we've already done better on. We've we're straightening that out now.
▶ 2:24:45We are not allowing those individuals to come into the United States of America. Do you believe as I do that as members of Congress, and you can state this, don't be afraid to say it, that we have an added level of responsibility, the way that we comport ourselves, whether we are Republicans, whether we are Democrats, whatever we are, that we should behave in a certain fashion. We write laws. So you would believe that we would follow the rule and believe in the rule of law itself.
▶ 2:25:15So do and and I believe we do have oversight. It's a process. You behave a certain way. It doesn't mean that you agree with everybody. It mean doesn't mean you don't investigate but that you as a member of Congress as a congressman or a congresswoman behave in an appropriate fashion lawfully not in a combative assault type of way. Would you believe that that is true, Mr. Arthur? Yes or no? Yes.
▶ 2:25:41And I attempted to comport myself that way when I was an oversight council for I'm sure you did. Mr. Marino, yes or no? Absolutely. Yes. Mr. Mikowski, yes or no? Yes, sir. Mr. Howser, yes or no? Absolutely, sir. Is what the military. So, we saw the video. You saw the video. I don't have to say any words. Look at the video. Even all you who came here with a certain focus in your mind and were told to believe something, look at the video and see what it shows. That's all I'll say.
▶ 2:26:10Thirdly, do you think there's a financial effect on all of us in America while we debate the great issues of the day? How much should we spend? Where should we spend it? What should we do with the the the fiscal resources that we have, with the dollars that we bring in through taxation? Do you believe it's inappropriate to fund illegals, including illegal criminals, which we have? I could ask you that question. In fact, I'll ask a real question very quickly.
▶ 2:26:39In the past administration, did we at times fund illegal aliens? I'm sorry. I criminal aliens. Absolutely. Did we fund illegal criminal aliens? Yes, sir. Did we fund illegal criminal aliens in the lastation? Did we, Mr. Hower, fund mean, sir? Like give them stuff. Give them housing. Give them clothing. Give them transportation. Give them education. Did give give them in some cases debit cards. Did we do that? We have provided resources to migrants for 60 years. We funded them.
▶ 2:27:09Not illegal bad people. We didn't. No, I disagree. And that's wrong. And would you believe that cost people? I don't even We don't even have to go into it. Of course, it cost the taxpayer. Of course, when resources are sparse and we'll argue about Medicaid and SNAP and all these things. How about we don't give money to people who are really bad people doing bad things. Send them back to the country of origin. Maybe that's a good idea.
▶ 2:27:35And I did want to address the ranking member, not the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr. Raskin. He always loves to talk about the Senate bill, so I always have to talk about it as well. It was a bad bill. I didn't know. I knew it was a bad bill the minute we saw it in judiciary. Had nothing to do with Donald Trump. It codified illegal aliens and allowed up to 1.8 8 million to come into the country before anything would done. It did nothing about catch and release. It did nothing about the wall. It didn't rebuild the wall.
▶ 2:28:04Did nothing with in the past we had title 42 and it didn't do anything about the remain in Mexico policy? Now, real quickly, would you agree that those some of those policies in the past administration were good and that we really didn't need a whole lot more legislation that we could have done it through the president at the time under the Biden administration? Yes or no? Absolutely. Mr. Marino, yes or no, Mr. Mowsky? Yes or no? Yes, sir. Mr.
▶ 2:28:33Hower, can you just give me the question one more time? All the things that I just mentioned, all the things that could be done to protect our borders, we had the tremendous, the biggest disaster in border crossings in our American history. Couldn't have we had prevented that purely by presidential action, not by a faulty bad Senate bill. I think you're going to see a good bill come out of this Congress. Sir, I would only state that this is only the first 100 days. You're going to see border surges or I didn't ask that question until we don't need the Alien Insition Act to carry out immigration title.
▶ 2:29:03Do you believe that we could have done better in the Biden administration through presidential action than we did, sir? Clearly. Yes or no? At the beginning, sir, there was there was mistakes. Yes or no? Yes, we screwed up. We did a bad job in the Biden administration. You know, I mean, even you've got to kind of admit that. And now we're trying to straighten out the mess. With that, I will yield back. And I yield to the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Moscowitz.
▶ 2:29:32You may even have a joke or two for us. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Not not not a joke, just a quick clarification. The bill that he's talking about that was terrible was a Republican bill, so it's fine. Uh, it happens. I just quick clarification of if it's bad, it's bad. I don't care what party. No, no. I I just wanted to remind people that it was a conservative, very conservative Republican senator uh who who had drafted that bill. Uh, with that, I want to yield uh as much time as she may consume to the ranking member, Jasmine Crockett.
▶ 2:30:03All right. Uh, Mr. Hower, it's back to us. I uh like games every once in a while. And so I have some questions. The questions are going to be, is it political theater or progress? You ready? The first question is going to be doing an executive order revoking birthright citizenship. Political theater or progress? Political theater. It doesn't help the mission of ICE. Okay. How about revoking student visas?
▶ 2:30:34It takes up the time of ICE officers and is political theater and it takes away from the national security and public safety mission. How about bashing car windows of people with no criminal record? That's driven from quotas of arrests being driven by the White House and that is politization of ICE immigration enforcement. So, it's political theater. How about deporting people who are even citizens? That's not even deportation, but you know what I'm saying. It's political theater.
▶ 2:31:04And I believe that this White House is getting the outcome, you know, the the reaction that they want and they desire. How about arresting political opponents? That would be political theater. Yeah. So, here's the deal. I know that you've been cut off a number of times as you have tried to give answers to various questions. Thank you so much for explaining that even this committee hearing is actually a bunch of political theater because there's a lot of things that we could be talking about.
▶ 2:31:32We could be talking about the fact that we are currently in reconciliation. And while everyone else has been told to do things such as make sure that you take food out of people's mouths, make sure that you get rid of people's health care, make sure that you um are harming our federal workers even more by making sure that the resources that they need to be able to do their job just kind of disappear. But at the same time, I think the way that Mr.
▶ 2:31:57Moscowitz figured it it would be approximately $44,000 um as relates to a bonus for each each ICE agent. Is that correct? It's incorrect. It was 42,000. Okay, my bad. Um but the reality is that we do have real problems and I don't know how we're going to get to real solutions if we continue to just make everything about politics as it was properly outlined by the gentleman from Florida.
▶ 2:32:25That was a Republican bill and I'll be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't really a big fan of the bill myself on my side. So, I know that there was a lot of conservative stuff in that bill that was going to be harmful. And with that, I am going to yield back to the gentleman from Florida. Yeah. And I'm I'm going to yield uh time to uh the recommendation in a second. Mr. Mario, on that topic of bonuses, just real quick, do do you support ICE agents getting $42,000 worth of bonuses?
▶ 2:32:52There's there's $800 billion bonuses. Okay. I say I say billion. I'm sorry million. I apologize. $800 million in there for bonuses. Do you do you support that? Yeah. What kind of bonuses are we talking about? Are we talking retention bonuses? This is a great Mr. Marino. Great question. They didn't say at all in the backup. There was no documentation at all what the bonuses were for or what it would be. It was just 800 million for bonuses.
▶ 2:33:20It sounded like a lot of money for federal employees for bonuses. Not that we don't want to treat our federal employees great. Of course we do. But I had suggested 500 million for bonuses and they said, "No, 500 million sounds a little better, right?" Well, look, I or zero. Are you at zero for bonuses? Maybe. I I I never received a $42,000 bonus. Good. Perfect. We agree. Federal government. However, however, however, times are different. Recruiting is tougher. Retention is a challenge.
▶ 2:33:48And if that's something that it's needed for, I would support it. So So do you support those bonuses for Noah, FEMA, the Pentagon, all other departments or just ICE? I I would support strategic use of retention bonuses where they were needed. Okay. Uh I'd like to yield the remainder of my time to Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Moscowitz. Um Mr. Hower introduced the important idea of political theater. You've introduced the idea of bureaucratic bloat.
▶ 2:34:15and our ranking member on the subcommittee uh has uh talked about the assault on the living standards of millions and millions of people in the country and their healthcare. I just want to add one final piece of this which is that Donald Trump and his family have been making more than a billion dollars a month since they got into office on the crypto scam and now he's collecting a $400 million airplane from the dictator of Qatar.
▶ 2:34:43There is an absolute ripoff of the taxpayers taking place and a prostitution of the presidency. And I think that completes the picture for what's taking place in our country today. I yield back to the gentleman and thank you. And I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentleman from Florida yields. I recognize the gentleman from Missouri, Dr. Rder. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all our witnesses for being here. Mr.
▶ 2:35:08Howser, thank you for your service to our country as a combat But no thank you to the Biden administration for precipitating the worst border crisis in American history. I would say that Joe Biden and his administration were incompetent, but I think it was intentional. It was intentional that he flooded at least 8 million illegal aliens into our country. And what is the Democrat's solution?
▶ 2:35:36The Democrat solution seems to be unless you've been convicted of a violent crime, you can stay. Not only can you stay, but we will pass amnesty bills to support you. We will block enforcement of immigration laws and endanger ICE officers with sanctuary city policies. We'll give you welfare. We'll give you health care. We'll give you free education.
▶ 2:36:05You know, if you want to come here as a b as a as as a a as a birthright tourist, your kids will be citizens and that will help you to stay into the c in the country permanently. We'll give you free stays at luxury hotels. Oh yeah, Biden and his administration have really done a great job. Donald Trump has lowered illegal border crossings by 95%. Somehow that doesn't count.
▶ 2:36:34There going to be surges later on, don't you know? Well, you know, this all gets away from the purpose of this hearing, which is the fact that activist protests, including those by members of Congress, obstruct immigration enforcement and undermine public safety. In April and May alone, there were more than 14 demonstrations planned across 12 states targeting ICE detention centers and related facilities.
▶ 2:37:00These types of demonstrations physically impede ICE detention center operations on purpose and inhibit the successful processing of detained illegal aliens. And you know what? I don't I do care whether illegal aliens have committed violent crimes, of course, but I think every illegal immigr immigrant, as you've pointed out, Mr. Mowski, is has broken the law and needs to leave.
▶ 2:37:29And to me, due process is you prove that they're not here legally, they get the hell out of our country. The gentleman yield for a friendly voice. No, I do not. It's my time. You've spoken about four times so far in hearing. For example, on May 4th, 2025, activists protested an ICE field office as a detention bus left with law enforcement agents forced to surround the bus to prevent interference, diverting staff from other duties, and delaying detainee transfers.
▶ 2:37:58The protests directly impeded law enforcement, federal law, and put ICE officers at risk. Uh, Mr. Rich, Mr. Chowski, do law enforcement officers and ICE officers, do they receive contra training how to deal with crowds and Uh, sir, yes, sir, they do. I'm sorry. Is the time clock is I don't I don't know how much I think I have some time left, but the time clock went black.
▶ 2:38:31Oh, there we go. Okay. Um, how are how how do how are um ICE officials trained to react when a a gate would be broken and and uh broken uh stormed by a group of rockus protesters. Sir, from what I saw in the video, um I think they handled themselves the way they could um the best they could in that situation.
▶ 2:38:57I mean, what I saw was a lot of belly bumping from from lawmakers um putting their hands on the officers whether you agree or not agree. Um that's unlawful. Yeah, it shouldn't happen. Um there's there's battery and when you touch another person without their consent, that's battery. and battery of a law enforcement officer. Is is that a violation of the law? Yes, sir. Even if you're a member of Congress. Yes, sir. We members of Congress aren't above the law.
▶ 2:39:27Absolutely, sir. And they were trying to protect maybe the facility that there was a lot of commotion there. Their number one concern at that moment is making sure nobody enters a secure environment um and that could pose risk to a detainee or a congressperson or anybody else in that situation, sir. Right. Okay. Right. Um, why do DHS and ICE officers, why do they wear body Sir, can I answer that question? Sure.
▶ 2:39:55As chief of staff of ICE, I implemented the first policy for body warning cameras and they created a pilot within Homeland Security Investigations to carry that out. That in the last year has been rescended by the current administration. Okay. So, they are not funding and they are not moving forward with the body warning camera program under the Trump administration. But I was glad to see quite frankly in the criminal complaint against the the congresswoman that some of the officers still had their cameras on. Yeah.
▶ 2:40:22So hopefully this Congress and we have and we have footage commit to fully and we have footage and we have footage of officers being being assaulted. Mr. If I could if I could respond to that question. Uh it's a twofold purpose. One, it protects the officer from any allegations that they engaged in violations of civil rights laws, and it also reminds the officer of the fact that somebody's always watching. And and and Mr.
▶ 2:40:50Arthur, why do ICE officers occasionally wear masks? Uh, ICE officers occasionally wear a mask because unfortunately in this heated environment, they get doxed, they get attacked, they get threatened at their homes. people uh disclose where they live, disclose their phone numbers, where their children go to school. Well, thank you so much and thank you all for your testimony. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. That concludes today's hearing. We thank our witness, Mr. Chairman, can I do have a UC request? Is that okay? Absolutely.
▶ 2:41:20Um there's two articles. One is this is a letter from members of the New Jersey delegation to the committee uh condemning efforts by the administration to politicize congressional oversight. By the way, that's some of the New Jersey delegation. Oh, some of the from some members of the New Jersey. Yeah. And then uh this one is from the Washington Post. Elon Musk, enemy of open borders, launched his career as an illegal without objection. I've got a UC as well. This is from the Associated Press.
▶ 2:41:48President Trump's first three children did not receive birthright citizenship. This is an article that came out of the fact that Donald Trump Jr. as well as Eric and Ivanka were born to a woman who was not a US citizen at the time. Without objection. It concludes today's hearing. We thank our witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee and spending their time with us.
▶ 2:42:09Without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the record. Without objection, this hearing is