▶ 0:08:47The Subcommittee on the Middle East and North Africa will come to order. The sole purpose of this hearing is to assess US national security interests as relates to Syria and discuss potential policy options to further them. I now recognize myself to give an opening statement. Syria is at a turning point.
▶ 0:09:09The fall of Bashar al-Assad this past December, following four decades of authoritarian has created conditions for unprecedented change for Syria and for the Middle East. This change comes with significant risk. The Syrian war, dating back to 2011, has left most of the country in ruins, destroyed by years of indiscriminate bombing by Assad and his Russian and Iranian backers.
▶ 0:09:37The cost of reconstructing this broken will be in the tens of billions, even by the most modest assessment, and investors face significant hurdles as they work to navigate the complex sanctions regime that has emerged after four decades of Assad family rule.
▶ 0:09:54While there are rightfully many who seek to break down barriers, advocating for sanctions relief to ensure reconstruction can take place and put Syria on a path of success, we must not lose sight of core US interests in this rush to embrace Syria's new regime.
▶ 0:10:10There remain significant questions about Syria's new interim authorities led by US-designated foreign terrorist organization Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, HTS, a former al-Qaeda affiliate, Ahmed al-Sharaa.
▶ 0:10:26Despite his hardened past, the interim president continues to verbally signal a commitment to reform through his ability, though his ability uh to deliver remains to be seen, which is why we must be explicit with our goals for This includes the counter-ISIS mission, which has been a central part of US foreign policy since 2014.
▶ 0:10:50We must set clear expectations for the interim authorities on what we expect from them with respect to counterterrorism cooperation to prevent a resurgence and assume responsibility for detention centers holding thousands of ISIS members and affiliated individuals in the northeast. And concerns about extremism are not by any means limited to ISIS.
▶ 0:11:14Iran and its proxies have long used the country as a sanctuary space to plan and carry out attacks, including against While Russia sees Syria as a strategic launch pad to undermine our interests not just in the Middle East, but much further afield from Africa to Europe. There must be clear red lines when it comes to Iran and its proxies as well as Russia's ability to operate in Syria.
▶ 0:11:41Preventing Syria from being used as a sanctuary space is vital not just for the US, but also for Syria. This will no doubt be one of the metrics used as the international community measures the success of Syria's transition and by extension for the prospects for further economic relief.
▶ 0:12:01For Syria to succeed and reestablish itself on the international world stage, it must take action to prevent extremism from thriving once again, including by signaling a commitment to inclusive governance by establishing a positive working relationship with our Kurdish partners, the Syrian Democratic Forces. They have been at the forefront of the campaign to ensure the enduring defeat of ISIS.
▶ 0:12:28On that basis, the Trump administration has rightfully taken steps to waive US sanctions on a limited and temporary basis, giving Al-Sharaa sufficient time to demonstrate he is able to turn his words into actions. But this is not, I have to stress, a full embrace of Al-Sharaa or those he continues to surround himself with.
▶ 0:12:51We must use this opportunity to press him on key US priorities, notably as relates to counterterrorism, while also retaining limitations on US sanctions relief to ensure Iran and Russia cannot benefit financially. Al-Sharaa has expressed a concerning willingness to embrace Moscow despite Putin's complicity in war crimes against the Syrian people. For Russia, their presence in Syria is not just about the Middle East.
▶ 0:13:20It's a vital staging ground essential to everything they do in Africa and Eastern We underestimate the strategic importance Syria holds for the Russians at our own peril. Make no mistake. What happens in Syria does not stay in Syria. The country has consistently demonstrated its ability to impact and shape affairs far outside its From Europe's migrant crisis to ISIS to the war in Ukraine.
▶ 0:13:50When Secretary Rubio testified before Congress last month, he said, "Quote, there is no guarantee that by outreach and working with the transitional authority in Syria, things are going to work out. It may work out. It may not work out.
▶ 0:14:04But if we don't reach out and try, it's a guarantee not to work out." Uh and I echo the Secretary's Uh and just came back along with the ranking member from a trip to uh the Middle East including Saudi Arabia, Israel uh and Jordan. And that was the sentiment shared there as well. We want to give this an opportunity to But are fully cognizant uh of the consequences of failure here.
▶ 0:14:33During this hearing, we will further examine Syria instability and the vital role Syria and the Syrian people play in the Middle East. I now yield to the ranking member, Sheila Jackson Lee McCormick, for her opening statements. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, um for convening this important hearing on developments in Syria following the fall of the brutal Assad regime.
▶ 0:14:55I welcome our expert panelists for this afternoon, all whom have robust knowledge of Syria, the broader Middle East, and core US interests at this time of immense transition and opportunity. As Chairman Lawler noted, we recently returned from a congressional delegation to Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Jordan. In many meetings, developments in Syria were front and center. Excitement was palpable among our regional partners over the opportunities the changes in Syria and Lebanon present.
▶ 0:15:25Across the Middle East, US allies and partners have welcomed a change in leadership in Damascus with the hopes to support our robust construction work, investments in critical infrastructure, and increased humanitarian assistance to the million of Syrians who require urgent aid as of I understand I stand and support the Syrian people who look to a new future and a government that does not engage in systemic campaigns of violence and repression against its own citizens.
▶ 0:15:56I welcome the Trump administration's initial engagement with the new government of Syria, including the decision to lift certain sanctions through the general license 25 and issuing a 180-day waiver on the Caesar Act sanctions. However, while the president is correct to say that this is Syria's moment to shine, helping Syrians must meet this moment requires a clear This is noble.
▶ 0:16:22However, I do not believe that this can be achieved without providing incentives that would allow the new Syrian government to create and enable an environment and a strong institution which which is needed. Congress has not received any such details on the administration's plan to implement sanction relief effectively, nor a more coherent strategy that the administration on its priorities for US-Syrian relationships.
▶ 0:16:49I hope the vacuum the executive branch has created brings members from both sides to the of the aisles together to work on legislation that establishes clear priorities for further US engagement with Syria, including with respect to inclusion and fully representative governance, protection of religious and ethnic minority groups, continued counterterrorism cooperation, and more.
▶ 0:17:13A conditions-based sanction relief policies with clear timelines and matrices is critical for Syria's security, regional security, and the United States national security. I look forward to working with my colleagues on legislation to address this. Absent such congressional leadership, I fear the US Syria policy would be characterized by haphazard haphazard ill-conceived move fast break things approach that has been a characteristic of the Trump administration to date.
▶ 0:17:44The The stakes for Syrian people are too high and a peaceful Syria is too critical to our own interest to be reckless and unfocused. Incentives for direct deliverables for Syria are critical.
▶ 0:17:58US policy on Syria must continue to prioritize effective and multilateral counterterrorism operations, securing high-value ISIS detainees, restoring critical life-saving humanitarian aid that contributes to de-radicalization, elimination of chemical weapons and stores, and unexploded ordinances, and capability building for the interim government's security forces.
▶ 0:18:24It also requires robust engagement with our regional partners including Jordan. At the exact moment when a change in Syria requires a full set of foreign policy tools to advance US interests, the Trump administration has not only proposed a gutting of the State Department, but numerous United States stabilization and assistance programs active in Syria and within neighboring countries have been cut.
▶ 0:18:51Today, because of the Trump administration's policies, our regional partners in the Middle East are asking whether we keep our word, whether our adversaries are betting that we won't. I welcome the opportunities to speak with our panelists about the policies and strategies we should be working on to ensure this moment of cautioned at optimism for Syria, cautious optimism for Syria's people is not wasted in the United States interest in the region are protected. I yield back.
▶ 0:19:21Thank you, the ranking member. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record and we are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic. The Honorable David Schenker, Taube Senior Fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and previously Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs under President Trump's first administration. Dr.
▶ 0:19:49Anna Borshchevskaya, Harold Grinspoon Senior Fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and Dr. John B. Alterman Brzezinski Chair in Global Security and Geostrategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and is grateful to have you here to speak with us today.
▶ 0:20:13Your full statements will be made part of the record and I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to 5 minutes in order to allow time for member questions. I now recognize Mr. Schenker for his opening statements. Thank you, Chairman Lawler, uh representative ranking member Chairwoman McCormick, honorable members. Uh appreciate the opportunity to be here today. The future of Syria matters greatly to the United States.
▶ 0:20:40Under Under Assad, Syria was a source of regional instability and a persistent threat to Israel, Lebanon, and Jordan, among others. Assad's fall represents an opportunity for Syria, Washington, and its regional partners. There's been a lot of perseverating lately about Abu Muhammad al-Jolani. To be certain, he's no panacea. At a minimum, he's an Islamist and likely a burgeoning authoritarian. Notwithstanding lingering doubts, though, I believe al-Jolani is much better than Assad.
▶ 0:21:09He might not succeed in unifying and stabilizing Syria. Five months after the fall of Assad though, Al-Shara's the only game in town. The Trump administration should invest diplomatic capital to help him Now, time will tell whether suspending crippling US sanctions was the right A gradual process may have had more success at shaping the new government or perhaps continued US economic pressures would have scuttled Al-Shara's already unlikely attempt to stabilize a fractured and scarred
▶ 0:21:39Syria. As with many US policy decisions, the initiative to suspend sanctions was not a choice between good and bad, but rather a choice between bad and worse. Washington is no doubt ceded some leverage, but I believe Trump made the less bad decision. That is to give Al-Shara and the new Syria a chance. Meanwhile, Al-Shara's meeting some expectations on important issues. He's cooperating with the US on counterterrorism and undoubtedly will continue to do so.
▶ 0:22:09It's important that US forces remain in Syria until conditions are conducive to Foreign fighters constitute an even bigger challenge for Al-Shara. Terrorist militiamen and foreign jihadis played a key role in toppling Assad. So, these men are not going to be expelled. Now, at Al-Shara's request, the administration has consented to the integration of some 3,500 of these fighters into a unit of the military.
▶ 0:22:37While expedient, it's difficult to imagine that this decision won't have problematic long-term implications for discipline, accountability, and public uh confidence. Integration of these jihadis doesn't solve the problem, it defers it. Post-Assad Syria will not be a Still, Washington does have an abiding interest in the protection of minorities, a modicum of human rights, and some kind of political representation for Syria's ethnic and religious communities.
▶ 0:23:07I'm talking about the Kurds, Druze, and Christians alike. As an inclusive Syria, I believe, will mitigate towards stability. Going forward, Washington should set and convey expectations to Al-Shara on terrorism, foreign fighters, and governance, and be prepared to re-implement sanctions if Syria's trajectory dictates. Al-Shara's relations with Israel are also another challenge.
▶ 0:23:33Since the fall of Assad, Israel's been occupying and bombing Syria, at times At the same time, the government is Iranian weapon shipments destined for Over time, direct discussions between Israel and Syria, which are reportedly underway, could help build some trust between the parties, stabilize the border, and lead to more normal relations between these long-time Another concern is that a weak Syria will invite
▶ 0:24:03foreign At present, Iran is unwelcome, but the jury's out on Russia. But But Turkey and Israel both appear to be working to establish military spheres of influence in Syria. Israel bordering on Turkey, in my opinion, would be a recipe for heightened tensions, and the Trump administration should be pressing Israel and Turkey to establish, at a minimum, a hotline to preempt unintentional In sum, Syria faces a lot of challenges.
▶ 0:24:30The new government in Damascus will need US political support and robust diplomatic engagement to succeed. The US can help with coordinating reconstruction, keeping ISIS at bay, and implementing banking sector reforms necessary to reopen Syria for business, while at the same time encouraging the government to be more inclusive. It will be difficult for Washington to balance expectations and be patient.
▶ 0:24:54But the potential benefits for the United States and its partners of a stable, benign Syria that rejects the so-called axis of resistance are Thank you. I have submitted testimony for the record and I I look forward to your questions. Thank you, Mr. Schenker. I now recognize Dr.
▶ 0:25:14Borshchevskaya for her opening Chairman Lawler, ranking member Sherfless-McCormick, honorable members, thank you for the opportunity to testify With your permission, I'm submitting my written testimony and I'm going to summarize it. We now have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reshape the balance of power in the Middle East. Bashar al-Assad's dictatorship is over.
▶ 0:25:42But the window of opportunity it presents is going to close fast. Russia seeks to replace our influence and remake the world order with itself at the center. Syria is and has been central to that Nothing about the fall of Assad changes Moscow's overall plans and objectives, but it does give us a window of opportunity to foil Vladimir Putin's As Chairman Lawler said in his opening
▶ 0:26:12remarks, what happens in Syria tends to not stay in Syria. This is why we need to ensure Russia does not reestablish a foothold there. Knowing that, my testimony will now focus on several key issues of vital importance to the US. First, the Eastern Mediterranean is crucial to Russia. That's why the goal of control there is consistent and centuries-old for the Russian state.
▶ 0:26:40Make no mistake about it, this goal will outlast Vladimir Putin. It is part of how Moscow views its strategic positioning vis-a-vis the Second, Assad is gone and Russia may change tactics, but not its strategic objectives.
▶ 0:26:58These tactics will focus on staying in on leveraging economic influence, and positioning Russia as a protector of Syria has been fundamental to Russia's success in leveraging its influence for the last decade across the Middle East. Russia retains this influence as it seeks to use it to undermine the United And if Moscow can navigate the new Syrian regime, the Kremlin can continue to exert influence.
▶ 0:27:29Assuming the United States does not want to see its position weakened in the region, and I would suggest that that would be disastrous, the US must ensure that Russia does not reestablish control in Syria. To that end, the US could utilize its influence through a carrot and stick approach to block Russia's ability to leverage power.
▶ 0:27:47The US can achieve it through the First, by tapping into the strength of Facilitate greater ties with Syria and further empowering Ukrainians all across the Middle East and North Africa. In Syria, the US can facilitate economic and diplomatic ties between the two countries, for example, by supporting Ukraine's wheat deliveries to Syria. And all across the MENA region, the US can facilitate a push for Ukrainian technology, arms trade, and information.
▶ 0:28:17Over the last 3 years, the Ukrainian military has integrated Western and post-Soviet military systems and made impressive innovations in the arms industry. And we saw an example of that most recently with Ukraine's drone drone attack on Russia this past weekend. We saw how creative, how powerful that attack was.
▶ 0:28:38The US now has significant opportunity to partner with Ukraine to help transform and modernize Middle East states that have been traditional Russian client states. Second, continual engagement with the Syrian government. This engagement should include demonstration that if this government meets certain guideposts, it will be able to unlock aspects of a normalized relationship which it desires.
▶ 0:29:04And lastly, limiting Russia's resources through additional sanctions and tackling Russia's so-called ghost fleet of illicit oil tankers. As the United States in Europe ease or suspend sanctions against Syria, they must balance the need to help Syria recover with the need to block Russia's ability to profit from this recovery and use its economic tools to gain control.
▶ 0:29:31This could also include additional sanctions against Russia and entities that work with Russia and working with Turkey to crack down on the ghost fleet's legal violations and ecological I began my testimony by telling you that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. Let me reiterate here that this window is closing quickly. While we deliberate, Russia is strengthening its partnerships with Iran, China, and North Korea.
▶ 0:29:58Ensuring Russia does not reestablish a position in Syria is bigger than Syria, but it is also bigger than even Russia alone. Thank Thank you, doctor. Thank you, Dr. Borchardt Skaya. I now recognize Dr. Alterman for his opening Thank you, Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherrill, listen McCormick, distinguished members of the committee. Let me start by expressing my condolences over the passing of Mr. Connolly.
▶ 0:30:26He and I met almost 40 years ago when he was working for Senator Pell and I was a very young aide for Senator Then as now, I was in awe of his energy, his creativity, and his dedication to public service. His loss is a loss to this committee and to the country. As Chairman Lawler said, Syria stands at a profound inflection point.
▶ 0:30:47Syrians celebrate having overthrown a brutal dictatorship, but they don't know whether they will live under another dictatorship, a theocracy, a democracy, or a failed state. The questions before Congress are clear. How much should we care about Syria's How much can we shape it? And how should we proceed? On the first point, make no mistake. Syria is important to US national security.
▶ 0:31:18It borders key US allies, Israel, Turkey, and Jordan. The country hosts an active jihadi movement, and elements in the country have a long history of cooperation with Iran. Syria's new leaders are overwhelmed by their domestic needs. They're navigating the wreckage of 50 years of dictatorship and 15 years of civil war. The economy has operated on bribery, government shakedowns, and Captagon drug sales for years.
▶ 0:31:47Infrastructure is crumbling, and there's a critical shortage of capable administrators. The government off- also faces severe security dilemmas. Two of the most important are how to handle tens of thousands of Syrians who supported Assad's repression, and how to manage jihadi movements that include thousands of foreign fighters who've been important allies of Syria's new leaders. Our impact in this context is going to be limited.
▶ 0:32:17We'll have the most influence shaping Syria's external environment. Multiple countries have keen interests in Syria's future, and that creates some dangerous Turkey sees itself as the dominant external actor, and it's worked closely with Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, Syria's current rulers.
▶ 0:32:37Turkey views Syrian reconstruction as both a security imperative and also a business Israel's interests sharply conflict with Turkey's. Israeli leadership views Syria's new leaders as jihadist or jihadi adjacent. After decades with Hezbollah threatening Israel from Lebanon, Israel is creating a buffer zone along Syria's border while working to weaken Islamist forces in the Syrian government.
▶ 0:33:05Iran seeks to maintain a foothold in a country where invested tens of billions of dollars and maintained a strategic pathway to Hezbollah. And as Anna suggested, Russia similarly attempts to preserve its military bases and what's left of decades of influence and investment in Syria. Europe wants a peaceful Syria to stem any refugee flow and the Gulf states want to keep Iran marginalized. In this, Syria faces a critical danger beyond jihadi capture.
▶ 0:33:35It could become a battleground for regional proxy wars, much like Lebanon was in the 1970s and 1980s. The growing hostility between Israel and Turkey, exacerbated by the Gaza war, poses particular risks.
▶ 0:33:50Countries may adopt unsavory allies to undermine each other in Syria and the effects could spread The Trump administration correctly relaxed sanctions relaxed sanctions and it's given Syria's new government an opportunity to demonstrate its intentions and capacity. Still, that policy needs some adjustment.
▶ 0:34:12First, while appointing a Syria envoy was constructive, choosing somebody who's simultaneously ambassador to Turkey creates a conflict of interest that will make balancing between the regional players much harder. Ambassador Barrack's two jobs will be in conflict much of the time. Second, we can't exert influence over and partners while they pour aid into Syria and we completely abstain.
▶ 0:34:37Humanitarian engagement here serves US self-interest and isn't mere charity. Groups we oppose throughout the Middle East build grassroots support through social services and we can't afford to be absent on the aid front. We don't have to fully understand Ahmad al-Sharaa's motivations or trust his background, which includes troubling associations with some of the region's most vicious terrorists.
▶ 0:35:02Given our justified uncertainty, we should support him modestly, test him continuously, and that our allies remain aligned with our policy. I see great potential in Syria as I think many of us do, and we also see Syria's risks. We need a policy that makes the former more likely and heads off the second. A modest conditional US strategy anchored in coordination with allies and partners offers the best opportunity to advance US interests.
▶ 0:35:33Thank you, Dr. Alterman. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questioning. Mr. Ms. Borshchevskaya, what are Russia's main objectives in Syria and how has Assad's fall shaped its ability to achieve them?
▶ 0:35:53At present, Russia is working very hard to ensure it retains a presence in Uh at this stage, um they're being relatively quiet, but they're watching. They're engaging in discussions with the current Syrian government. Um and as I mentioned in my open in my written remarks, Russia's trying to position itself as a protector of minorities.
▶ 0:36:15The most striking example of that is one that I mentioned in my testimony where, according to uh Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Maria Zakharova, uh Russia had given several thousand people refuge at al-Hawl camp during an outbreak of violence on on on the coast. So, I think at this stage Russia is taking a very cautious wait-and-see approach and slowly building ties and retaining Um but make no mistake, this is towards a larger goal.
▶ 0:36:46And how could the Kremlin use Syria's transition as an opportunity for financial gain? Uh from that perspective, what guardrails need to be in place to prevent that from happening as we consider how best to lift Syria's complex and multifaceted sanctions So, I think Russia's one big advantage Russia has is its relationship its trade relationships with the Gulf states.
▶ 0:37:10And as we're now seeing Gulf states looking to engage economically with Syria, uh given the fact that Russia has these strong relationships with these countries, so many of Russian oligarchs have fled to the Gulf after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, uh Russia could find ways to cement ties through second and third parties, and that would be hard to trace. And that's something that we need to continuously monitor and look to block. Uh Mr.
▶ 0:37:37Shenker, how might the power vacuum in a post-Assad Syria be exploited by regional actors like Thank you, Chairman. Um as I think Joel Ulterman said a a few minutes ago, you do have Turkey that not only has relations with HTS, but also with the Syrian National Army, other active militia in the country.
▶ 0:38:03Um and uh shares frankly um their ideological in a way fellow travelers. Um they are Islamists as well, the government of Turkey. Um and I think uh there's opportunities for them to make influ- uh inroads, uh with the new government. They are a more trusted partner than many. Uh at the same time, on the ground, uh there's a real possibility we see right now, Qatar trying to get in.
▶ 0:38:32Um we see uh Saudi Arabia as well, that frankly, in my view, is a a better Um but all these groups will will be competing. And if they compete to see who can spend more to rebuild Syria, maybe that's a good thing. But if they compete for political influence, um this could lend to corruption or further further radicalization. I think that to that end, Israel has sought to curb uh the growing Turkish influence in Syria.
▶ 0:39:03In recent months, Israel has become increasingly forward-leaning uh in terms of its willingness to take action within Syria's borders to contain uh the threat. Though there have been efforts to uh have discussions between Israel and and Turkey. What can the US do to make sure that uh both sides' uh interests are are protected in this uh transition? Thank you.
▶ 0:39:30Certainly, I think that the United States should be um working with Israel um and Syria um if they need our help to get together and chat quietly to deconflict, to gain a better understanding of where each party is at, what their own concerns are. You're not going to have a successful Syria, frankly, if you can't have Syrian government forces operating south of Damascus. Um so, what can be done to reassure Israel?
▶ 0:40:00Uh and what can be done going forward to uh on areas that are overlapping, where um both Al-Shabaab um and um and Israel agree, ISIS has to be fought. Um Palestinian groups may have to be And these are things that both Israel and Syria can work on jointly.
▶ 0:40:25Lastly, uh Al-Shara has pledged to establish inclusive governance in Syria and certainly prevent the country from becoming a staging ground. I think obviously he has said a lot of the right things. That was the takeaway certainly from my conversations in Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Jordan. Um but obviously the proof will be in the pudding.
▶ 0:40:51So, what is your assessment of his willingness to deliver on these promises thus far? Uh and does he have an effective command and control of the various militia groups on the ground? But those are two good questions, but two separate questions. I think in terms inclusive governance, uh the answer is this is very much a work in progress. They had committee meetings to talk about the constitution or the temporary constitution.
▶ 0:41:21These were widely panned, I think, by minority groups as being performative. Um that there wasn't a real inclusion. Other types of things that have appeared that the nature of the Syrian state is defined as being a Muslim state in the constitution. Um this to many in Syria is viewed as Um and and the appointment of certainly let's let's we can go beyond just minorities.
▶ 0:41:51The the inclusion of women in government is also, I think, striking how how low it is. Um as for command and or control over these militias, um the answer is no. Um I think he controls a very small part of Syria to date and is even working to incorporate in effective manner the SDF, the the Kurdish US-backed counterterrorism partner.
▶ 0:42:18This too, I think is is a challenge if for no other reason that al-Shara himself has appointed a jihadi to be in charge of Hassakeh who has perpetrated atrocities against Kurds Thank you. I now recognize ranking member Sherrillis McCormick for 5 Thank you so much and thank you for your testimony.
▶ 0:42:41Um being actively participating in the recovery and reform of Syria is top line for us to make sure that Syria has a real chance of succeeding and I think our goal really is to be one of the strongest partners to Syria, but also to be the most influential. And right now we're competing with Russia and we're aware that Russia now has two bases that it does have control over, but I wanted to first start with the first half.
▶ 0:43:07How can we be successful in being the strongest partner to ensure we have stability? Do you believe that I know we lifted the sanctions, but what are some of the reforms or strings that you would like to see attached when it comes to incentivizing them to make sure that they're actually moving in a forward movement that we can trust and believe Oh, that question is for Dr. Altman. Well, actually first. I was actually going to ask it to all you guys, but I'll start with you. Thank you.
▶ 0:43:34I think first we're all friends from many years ago and and I think we also fundamentally agree on many of the issues as many of you do. Look, I think the way we become a force multiplier is partly we're active on the ground, but I think even more important is we have an ability to rally our partners and allies in a way that no other country does.
▶ 0:43:59There is, as you've heard from several of us, there's a real challenge of Israel and Turkey mixing up, up there are other parties too and to me there's partly an issue of what our aid should be but I don't think we should spend a lot of time trying to create the perfect incentive, the perfect conditions, the perfect consequences of bad action.
▶ 0:44:25I think it's much more important that we make sure all of our friends and allies are rowing in the same direction. It's not at all clear to me that they will. It's not at all clear to me that they want to and to me that this is really it's partly an aid issue but I think more fundamentally it's a diplomacy issue and it's the administration speaking with one voice about some very complicated issues where I think the administration may not
▶ 0:44:55agree internally on all of the issues but I think we have to to speak with one voice, act with one hand and persuade our our allies and partners to join with us rather than undermine each other which I think will really undermine the chances for recovery in Well, you mentioned that we need to use all of our diplomatic tools. Now right now our toolkit has been diminished due to the cuts we've seen with USAID. So I wanted to narrow in.
▶ 0:45:23Are there any that you think are imperative for us to actually have some um guardrails so we can say these need to be in place so we can help move them along in a positive direction. Um some of the responses we got when we were overseas also, there's an ambivalence about this new administration and government. So how can we put guardrails if anybody has any suggestions what needs to be incorporated to help them along? And I'll open that up to you.
▶ 0:45:52Ranking member um and I think um at a minimum we should be working on you know, now that we've had these suspension of sanction. Um you still won't see what they need is is really a huge um the flow of foreign direct investment of to build actually a a financial life, right?
▶ 0:46:15There's no there's no economic life in in Syria to speak of and uh and with the suspension and with the with the prospect of after 180 days of re-imposition of sanction if performance is inadequate um for some reason or another uh this does not inspire confidence of investors.
▶ 0:46:39So um this requires that that um we help the government of Syria to help themselves through banking reforms um through cleaning up their um their counterterrorism financing etc. uh so that um we can start to people can start to rely on banks and they can actually do business. That's at at at a minimum. Um but there are no guardrails, right? We're relying on one one person here. Th- this is key personnel.
▶ 0:47:09Um and he it's remarkable really, you know, the uh the irony that we are relying on a US designated Erswhile terrorist um to to secure all these disparate um factions of Syria um in this broken society. Um so I think it's also important to to be thinking about executive protection. Well, my last question if I can have a moment.
▶ 0:47:37I really wanted to get to the two bases which are under Russian control. Do you believe that uh Russia would be successful in maintaining control and influence over those bases? Well, I think that remains to be seen, but I think Russia has a real chance in maintaining a nominal degree of control. And and that is very important because that's Russia's ability to project power into multiple directions into NATO's southern flank, uh into the Middle East and into uh Africa.
▶ 0:48:07Um and uh uh beyond that, if I may, to your earlier question about what what can we do? I I agree with David, the reality is there are no guardrails, but I think uh we could aim to demonstrate that we are committed to and that we're going to be consistent. Is Russia came into Syria uh 10 years at a time when there was a vacuum. And any vacuum that there is, Russia is going to fill.
▶ 0:48:36So, I think if we can demonstrate uh consistency and interest, because one of the biggest problems that many of our partners have with us is that we're inconsistent. We say one thing and then we change policies. Sometimes we don't know what Sometimes we don't know what their policy is.
▶ 0:48:50Um and if we can demonstrate that we are committed, that this is important for us, and that we're willing to do what it um be it as David described through helping uh Syria navigate banking reform, uh but also empowering other actors who are are our partners in Syria, essentially filling in the need that otherwise Russia would fill. I think that would be an important step forward. Thank you. Thank you, ranking member.
▶ 0:49:19I now recognize the gentleman from South Carolina, Representative Wilson, for 5 Thank you very much, uh Chairman Lawler, and I want to say amen to your opening comments. Uh additionally, I it how important this hearing is. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. All the members are here, which is outstanding. Uh Ryan Zinke has just joined us all the way from Montana. And then I'm really grateful that we have Congressman Cory Mills here, who actually was in Damascus last month uh to support the people of Syria.
▶ 0:49:48So, we are just so grateful for um what we see as a historic decision by President Donald Trump to lift all sanctions on Syria. I believe it was a master stroke that has the potential to lead to a complete realignment of the Middle East for stability, peace, and prosperity for all the people. It's particularly important to me because last November I had the distinction and honor of being identified by the dictator Bashar al-Assad as a enemy of the state.
▶ 0:50:18I take that as a great honor. Uh 3 weeks later, uh he fled to Moscow where he should be with war criminal Putin. What a great team they are. Uh but I again, it's so exciting to me the uh people of Syria standing up uh for freedom and democracy. In one move, President Trump has boxed out China from the heart of the Arab world.
▶ 0:50:38He has additionally provided for helping expel Russian uh bases which are logistics for the Russians for war criminal Putin maintain dictatorships in Africa. He has also prevented the Iranian regime from resurgence and taken a major step to put pressure on ISIS. As Secretary of State Marco Rubio testified to the committee a few weeks ago, it's important to immediately lift the sanctions and that has truly begun.
▶ 0:51:07I also appreciate that the Syrian government has limited the activities of the Russian bases and the same time though we need to do more to completely expel the Russians. The new Syrian authorities should remember war criminal Putin's massive crimes of mass murder uh in Aleppo. This also led uh with the mass murder to historically unprecedented dislocation of over half the people of Syria from their homes, their mosques, their schools, their businesses, their churches.
▶ 0:51:37Nearly 12 million people. It This in modern times is inconceivable that so many millions could lose everything they have and half a million people were murdered. Turkey and Jordan have been so appreciated for securing millions in refugee camps. And with that in mind, Dr. Bars was calling and you've done great with your identification of how to remove the Russian bases and I'd like to know what our other colleagues, Dr. Schenker and Dr.
▶ 0:52:06Altman would have How can we help them remove these bases? I'll take a first crack at that. I think the government of Syria is disinclined toward Russia and Iran for the reasons that you mentioned.
▶ 0:52:22Russia and Iran helped the Assad regime kill half a million Syrians and what resembles a genocide and to and to force 12 million Syrians into exile and something that resembles ethnic cleansing.
▶ 0:52:38And so they are disinclined and we've seen already that the government of the Shara government has canceled contracts with STG engineering a Russian engineering firm that was developing Tartus port the the civilian port in and signed an 800 million dollar contract with Dubai Port World from from the Emirates.
▶ 0:53:04This is a positive step but this is going to require I think ongoing diplomatic engagement. Iran also there's no direct flights right now. The ties are not great. I think they're wary and they keep on intercepting and interdicting Hezbollah weapons that Iran is sending into Syria to to traverse into into Lebanon.
▶ 0:53:25So they're doing the but I think they need to be pushed over the finish line and they're going to need something eventually to fill that vacuum to Thank you Congressman. If I may I think that add to to what David said and and to underline in some ways this persistent attraction of Russia is if the government of Syria feels it may need a veto on the Security Council.
▶ 0:53:56And the Russians are so unscrupulous that even after contributing to death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians I think they are willing to execute their veto for a partner that does something for them and I think the Assad government at this point may not want to abandon that option.
▶ 0:54:21The more secure they feel that things are moving in the right direction, the less they feel they need somebody to veto things for them. I think the less attractive the Russians are because on many levels, commercial, military, and so on, the Russians aren't a very attractive partner. Well, I I I hope they see that America, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Jordan, Qatar, UAE are much better partners than war criminal Putin. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Wilson.
▶ 0:54:51I now recognize the gentleman from California, Representative Sherman, for 5 minutes. Uh President Trump is a tough negotiator when he's dealing with Americans or Uh he has the vast majority of our sanctions and we still don't have a pledge that he'll be uh that that that the Russian bases will be eliminated.
▶ 0:55:17So, you have one country that did not uh support Assad in any way, that does not have military bases in Syria, the side that was bombing uh the the current government's forces is retains those bases. Uh uh we have acquiesced 3,500 foreign jihadist fighters being quote integrated into the military.
▶ 0:55:46is a force that could be to the extent they have an I they have any ideological control pulling jihadis in in in the wrong Uh it's argued that abandoning those forces would uh also be a problem. these 3,500 what portion of the total foreign fighters are the 3,500 that are now being integrated? Is it substantially all or uh Yeah, the the report suggests that it's the vast majority of them.
▶ 0:56:16Of course, there were earlier reports that um al-Shabaab had had given key posts to and senior-level posts within the Ministry of Defense and and the military to about a dozen. are those reports accurate? The Yeah, with the the earlier reports about the the dozen, but yeah. to us to acquiesce in them joining the military cuz you got to do something with them perhaps.
▶ 0:56:41but the idea of giving them key posts uh seems extreme uh and uh the I guess the question is have we surrendered our our sanctions regime in return for uh sufficient controls on the foreign fighters uh a for sufficient controls on Russia and its bases.
▶ 0:57:08I would was here when Obama uh was incredibly concerned about the use of chemical weapons by Assad. We took the the chemical warfare treaty Uh has this new regime uh uh disposed of uh any Assad stockpiles uh of uh chemical weapons and the ability to create those weapons? Should I go again? Yeah, go ahead. Thanks.
▶ 0:57:35I'll be As for the the the foreign fighters, I don't know what the administration has requested. Initially, they had requested that these people be expelled. a compelling have acquiesced officially more or less in the as a de facto matter, they have acquiesced in these foreign fighters getting important government positions.
▶ 0:58:00But if you could talk a little bit about the chemical weapons and their and and capacity to to manufacture them. Yeah, these were in the initial Trump administration requests of the government of Syria. And in fact, this is one of the good news stories. The Syrians have provided to the the chemical weapons watchdog to the and then I think just today the IAEA was in Syria.
▶ 0:58:27They went out to Deir ez-Zor to look at Kibar and the remains of that and four other nuclear uh So, at least we're at least we're as and I assume that that we have at least a commitment to dispose of these weapons of mass destruction that uh All right. Congressman, one of the things that is most remarkable about Ahmed Shah is he has managed to convince all kinds of difficult people that he's fundamentally on their side.
▶ 0:58:54Whether it was Zarqawi, whether it was Ayman al-Zawahiri. I mean, he and and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, his secret Well, but his secret ability seems to be that he can convince people that fundamentally he's with them. I think he does it within his government. He does it outside of his government. I want to sneak in one more question.
▶ 0:59:16Do we foresee a Syria in which the Kurds, the Druze, and others will have effective control of their area, cooperate with the government, Uh still have autonomy and their own military presence or do we see uh the government in Damascus trying to in effect conquer and disarm the the the the Druze and the and the Kurds?
▶ 0:59:38As I Well, I think that the Kurds are a specially difficult case in this regard, but as I said, this is why I think it is so important that we not have Syria turn into a set of proxy regional proxy wars because if that happens, that will endanger all of the minority communities and the the stability and the territorial integrity of the country. Certainly, we should have gotten clearer guarantees for the Christian community before we eliminated the sanctions.
▶ 1:00:08Of course, we can restore those sanctions at any time, but it appears as if we've given them almost everything they want and gotten um an explanation, you know, aside from the the chemical weapons, which of course is their obligation anyway. We've gotten very few concessions. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Sherman. I now recognize Representative Kinzinger for 5 Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:00:38Chairman, and thank you to our distinguished witnesses for being here today. As we evaluate the state of Syria following the fall of the dictator Bashar al-Assad, we must ensure that the US continues to support our allies in the region. This includes promoting peace and cooperation between Syria and Israel. Um Dr.
▶ 1:01:01Borshchovskaya, recent reports have cited direct meetings between Israel and Syria in efforts to ease tensions between the two What actions should the US government be taking to encourage Syria to continue to pursue peace with our important allies in Israel.
▶ 1:01:22I think the United States can continue to stay engaged diplomatically and signal to Israel that a stable Syria stable whole Syria Syria that's not weak and divided is also in Israel's interest. I think also to certain extent engagement with Azerbaijan that has facilitated meetings between Israel and Turkey on the the conflict between Turkey and Israel that David had mentioned in his his opening remarks.
▶ 1:01:52So I think staying engaged diplomatically would be very important and would be again demonstrating consistency in our commitment to Syria. Dr. Altman, you mentioned in your testimony this is I'd like to say this for the other two panels as well.
▶ 1:02:12What how to test the current regime that in in Syria that's it what what are the steps are necessary and it may have this for the entire panel to test they're actually going through on the Thank you Congressman. I think we need lots of tests. I think we have to test them continually on how they treat various minority communities.
▶ 1:02:36How they treat jihadis and and the jihadi issue is difficult because as we know in Iraq firing all the members of the Ba'ath party helped create an insurgency in Iraq. You don't want to have that. You have a problem with jihadis their countries don't want them back. So is there some way where you can separate people who can be reformed from people who can't be? I think this is something we should be working with allies and partners to continually evaluate.
▶ 1:03:06I don't think any test that's going to make me comfortable and feel we can start ignoring things in Syria. I think what we have to do is we have to work with the Syrians and work with others to come up with a wide array of things, a constant set of report cards, and talk about where this is going. What are we Where do we have to nudge it? And where are things encouraging, and we want to encourage them further?
▶ 1:03:34Israel's safety and security is paramount. So, how how do we ensure that um you know, Dr. uh uh excuse me, Mr. Schenker, what steps has the US taken to support a counterterrorism efforts in the Middle Well, there is a an ongoing liaison, Congressman, between um Israel um sorry, between Syria and the United States.
▶ 1:04:01There are is exchange of of information, um and Syria has acted on against impending terrorist attacks. we know earlier that Al-Shara, back when he was Jolani, cooperated with the Turks um in Idlib province. So, this type of ongoing intelligence and this makes not only Syria safer from ISIS, but also makes um makes Israel safer.
▶ 1:04:31At the same time, we now see what appears to be the beginnings of communications between the Al-Shara administration and the government of Israel. Um and they too can do some liaison, some counterterrorism cooperation, and Israel can test Syria on this. Um this is going to take some time to build trust, but this is a border Israel already occupies swaths of Syrian territory right now.
▶ 1:05:01Um there have been uh and just was, I think this past week, a few mortars fired toward Israel from what we believe are Palestinian groups. Israel says they're going to hold the Al-Shabaab government we will see going forward if they um to information or if they expel Palestinian terrorist groups from Damascus. This is an open question. They've arrested some, um but this is also an ongoing work in progress.
▶ 1:05:32Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Cain. I now recognize Representative Amie for 5 minutes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My to the witnesses also. I don't want to be redundant, but there was something that caught my ear a moment ago. Mr.
▶ 1:05:52Schakowsky, you described, and I hope I'm adequately repeating this, uh the regime in Syria as being a erstwhile group of US-designated I don't You don't have to comment. I'm just saying it caught my ear. Am I incorrect in Al-Shabaab.
▶ 1:06:13I described Al-Shabaab and the the the country being a disparate group of ethnic groups and religion religious groups, but Al-Shabaab in particular is a for Yeah, So, it's a sad situation. I mean, it's a scary situation, particularly from those of us who look abroad. I think this 180-day pause is a position and point of concern for a lot of people. I just want to be on the record and say I just don't trust Syria.
▶ 1:06:41I I've not trusted them since they've committed all sorts of heinous crimes against innocent people, and this Damascus government I'm not convinced is any better than the government that that they took down. I could be wrong and would love to be wrong, and I not paranoid, but I think a little paranoia is good sometimes. In other words, I don't believe that Humpty Dumpty fell. I think he was pushed.
▶ 1:07:06And in this instance, I just don't believe that the Syrian government in Damascus is everything they say they are until they take some concrete steps uh so that the outside world and community will understand that they are correct. And I agree with the assumption that somebody made earlier that Russia would easily trade a veto to be able to get another partner. And the partner might want to veto so bad that they find themselves shaking hands. It's all very very kind of scary.
▶ 1:07:35But let me ask you, do you believe that the administration um our Secretary of State and others have done enough to ensure that this current regime in Syria has not and will not recreate the same conditions that previously existed, especially in regards to the support of terrorist groups and the tamping down of human rights. I'd just like to get your opinions on the record. A, let's start with A. All Mr.
▶ 1:08:05Ottoman, yeah. We're looking for an order here. Let's go alphabetical. I think this is a process and not an event, sir. I think this is going to be ongoing. It's going to take years. I share all of your discomfort. I spoke to a friend who's been a journalist in the Middle East for decades. He spoke to Hafiz al-Assad and he said, "I spoke to him and got a sense that we were going to see not Bashar al-Assad again, but Hafiz al-Assad ascend again.
▶ 1:08:32Hafiz al-Assad not not his son, but certainly not a friend of the United States, certainly not a force for stability in the Middle East. Could we be going there? We could be going there. I think I don't think there's a policy where we just do the policy and we're done. I think this is going to be a process of He will try to settle in what he what his government whether he'll be in power and what his government will look like in 2 years, 5 years time. I don't know. He doesn't know.
▶ 1:09:01It's quite possible that he will misjudge how to deal with radicals in his own midst. It's quite possible that he will fall prey to some sort of uh Israeli uh differences. I don't know how this is going to go, but I think we have to to constantly be watchful for all the reasons you say. Paranoid people have enemies, right? And they do.
▶ 1:09:30And you got and and there are a lot of enemies in Syria, and there's a lot of bad stuff that has happened in Syria and will happen Okay. I mean, just got a couple more responses, and thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. Sure. Uh you know, I also share your concerns, and let me start by answering your question with the following. I was born in the Soviet Union. I remember when it fell apart. I was a child at the time, but I remember it very well. There was a sense of euphoria that Russia was going to transform into a liberal-style democracy.
▶ 1:10:00We saw what happened. Uh Russia went back to its authoritarian past. Um so, I I share your concerns. Uh um I think the fact of the matter is, you know, to answer your question, it's very hard to know what there is to be done. Uh has the administration done enough? We It's There's only so much we can do to look forward. We have to take it one step at a time. Um we don't have a lot of leverage.
▶ 1:10:26And the the the fact that sus- sanctions can be snapped back quickly, that there's just 180-day window, that is an important lever- leverage that we have. but the fact of the matter is, there's not a whole lot beyond that. I think as I said in my opening remarks, I think the the most important thing we can do is to stay engaged and give uh consistent benchmarks, and to demonstrate that we're going to hold this government responsible to those Thank you very much. My time has expired. I think the key here is gradualism.
▶ 1:10:57That's how we proceed, not with giant steps, but little bitty steps that we measure daily, weekly, and monthly in this process. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you. Thank you, Representative. I now recognize Representative Bomgardner for 5 minutes. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for this uh very important committee hearing.
▶ 1:11:17Uh Syria has a special place in my heart, uh not just for the uh immense geopolitical importance of this troubled uh part of the world, but uh uh roughly 30 years ago, uh my first trip to the Middle East was as a as a Kerse Scholar to Syria and Jordan, and I spent a really meaningful uh summer uh in Damascus and Aleppo, uh and saw uh at that time what I had hoped was uh going to be a world of new possibility,
▶ 1:11:47an opening uh right before the peace uh what would eventually be a peace agreement with uh Jordan uh and Israel, and so much potential in Syria, and certainly uh potential that has not been realized. In fact, it has gone much the other way on these last 30 years, and I very vividly remember uh when I was uh at the US Embassy in Iraq during the surge, the uh challenge of foreign fighters coming across the border uh from Syria, and then uh as Iranian influence uh
▶ 1:12:17grew uh throughout the region as the US uh stepped back, we saw some of the consequences there. And I also uh appreciate that all three of you uh testified to the importance of deliberate, thoughtful, strategic action by the US.
▶ 1:12:33I think much in contrast to what we saw, uh particularly under the Obama administration, when uh we saw an offhand comment uh by John Kerry uh open the door uh for Russia uh to enter the region. Uh we saw a red line by uh, President Barack Obama then not enforced by uh, the US government.
▶ 1:13:00And then a statement by President Obama that Russia entering uh, Syria was going to be a quagmire for them, that it was all a mistake. And uh, I would just ask perhaps uh, you Anna, um, and I'll just call you Dr.
▶ 1:13:15Anna, uh, when you're a Baumgartner, uh, you understand sympathy for challenges on on last names, but um, could you contrast or give some thoughts on on US government policy in the last 15 years, uh, kind of this haphazard, uh, what I would call haphazard, but I'd like to hear your comments, uh, versus what we'd like to see in a in a thoughtful strategy.
▶ 1:13:37And in the briefing document I saw a list of conditions from the State Department that they had put on the uh, government of Syria to sort of come into the to the um, union with the the uh, the West and the US. And as I was looking at it, I thought it's a good list of conditions, but I also thought wouldn't it be helpful if we had a list of of condition, not the same conditions, but conditions for Syria's neighbors of behavior that we would like to see there.
▶ 1:14:06And perhaps specifically, what would we like to see from uh, from Turkey and Israel in addition to I think it's a given that they would have a hotline to avoid a proxy war, but uh, what would we one or two things we'd like to see from each of Syria's neighbors with respect to Syria, but both also some commentary on the haphazard nature perhaps and then what we would like to see from their Sure.
▶ 1:14:29Well, first uh, um, you know, the Obama administration uh, saw Russia essentially as as part of a solution uh, rather than the problem in the in in the in if in the as as the ongoing Syria tragedy developed. And so to me what I what I highlighted over over the course of my work is that Russia cannot be Russia cannot be part of the solution. Putin had taken advantage of that perception. And these events that you refer to such as the statement that Syria was going to be a quagmire for Russia.
▶ 1:14:59Secretary Kerry opening the door for Russia and and so forth. Um there was this confusion about what Russia was what what it could do and therefore and then the belief that Russia could help disarm Assad. Remember this was Assad's who frankly created Assad's chemical weapons in the first place. He could not possibly disarm him. Um so what I would like to see is more consistency and clarity that Russia that we need to compete with Russia.
▶ 1:15:27Russia cannot be part of a solution not especially not after helping Assad destroy this country. Um because our credibility is on the line at this point. And in terms of what we'd like to beyond the hotline well I'd like to see more more diplomatic engagement. More commitment to empowering other actors like I mentioned potentially such as Azerbaijan who has already stepped in into this role.
▶ 1:15:53But also looking to take your question a little bit further beyond our partners looking to create linkages between European and Middle East theaters. And that's why I highlighted the importance of empowering Ukrainians tackling Russia's ghost fleet looking at the bigger strategic picture because that's how Russia is looking at Thank you Representative Bomgardner and I now recognize the gentleman from Mr. Schneider for 5 minutes. Thank you Mr. Lawler and I want to thank the witnesses.
▶ 1:16:24I have so many questions. How do we help make sure that Al-Shabaab succeeds? How do we protect minorities? How do we orient Syria towards our allies and away from enemies like Iran but at the same time how do we make sure allies like Turkey don't move the S-300s to Syria to get out of Katzka. And there things that we we need to worry about. But uh Dr.
▶ 1:16:50uh uh Borshchovskaya, you you talk about Russia and the Soviet Union, and I started thinking as I was sitting here about history. Uh the Soviet Union lasted 69 years. The To understand where Russia goes after the Soviet Union, you have to understand where it was before and and look back, you know, to the 800s. Syrian history goes back even farther. And you have uh more ethnic groups than you can count when the civil war started 12, 13 years ago.
▶ 1:17:20I remember using, I guess it was 2011, 14 years ago, using the metaphor of a corkscrew. And that there were so many different groups in there, and as countries around and even the US got involved, we essentially tied ourselves to the corkscrew, and every time the corkscrew turned, it pulled us further and further in. And we didn't know what the outcome would be. Ultimately, finally, Assad left. Uh Ashara uh rises to power.
▶ 1:17:47Those threads seem to have been cut in many ways, but we still are very much um as you all have said, we have interests in Syria. And uh not just our interests, we have uh and and concerns with countries who are trying to to stay in Syria, Russia, and others.
▶ 1:18:09Um So, my my question is, given this narrow window of opportunity that you've talked about that that we're looking at, the desire of Russia to make sure it maintains its access to the Eastern Mediterranean that it is so critical for its view, China trying to make sure it has its play, Iran, etc. What do we need to do as the United States most importantly? And I'm just going to go down 1 2 3 from left to right.
▶ 1:18:34What do What does Congress need to do to make sure that we protecting our interests, protecting our uh uh hopes and aspirations for a new region? I say this is the chair of the Abraham Accords Caucus. Serious time I've been part of the Abraham Accords. And I'll leave it at that. So, Dr. Um thank you very much, Congressman. First, I think you're you're thinking about this exactly the right way.
▶ 1:18:58If you think about who wants instability in Syria, it's the people we are most concerned about. It's the Iranians and the Russians who seek to exploit instability because they see Syria settling down as helping us and undermining them. I think that's partly why we need to work so closely with our our partners and allies. Um I was talking to a a friend over the weekend and and mentioned I was testifying. So, so no State Department witnesses?
▶ 1:19:25I mean, I think one of the things Congress can do is you can engage with the We'd like to. And make sure No, and make sure that that they've worked out both where they And as I say, I'm very concerned about Ambassador Barak trying to play both the Turkey role and the the Syria envoy role because it then becomes very hard to reassure the Israelis enough. I'll say if you do everything half-assed, you do nothing well. And so, I agree with you. Dr. Porchitskaya.
▶ 1:19:53So, well I and I I agree with John uh uh on on what he just said. I mean, to to add to that, I think Congress can uh can make it clear that Syria is a priority, that it will uh that it will highlight these issues on a regular basis. It will engage in conversations and monitor uh and look for potential points of Thank you. Uh Mr. Schenker. Yeah, I uh Thank you, Congressman. I I actually agree with what John said about Tom Barrack. I I have a section in my written testimony about this.
▶ 1:20:23I I don't think you can do two jobs with one person simultaneously well. Um in addition to the conflicts of interest, but I would do say um one of the things he can do, and I don't know if you've already done this, but um, you know how you have the the Syria Accountability and Lebanese uh, Sovereignty Restoration Act. Um, people who undermine the stability, or countries that undermine the stability of Syria, can also be sanctioned or otherwise treated differently.
▶ 1:20:52I mean, just an I I like that idea with my last few seconds. I'll just, uh, make it an observation. I mentioned the Soviet Union was 69 years. Assad family took power in 1971, 25 years after Syria was established as a state. We can think of those in in long periods. But, just doing some research as I was sitting here, um, the Ottomans ruled Syria for 400 years. Before that, the Arabs, uh, ruled Syria for almost 900 years. The Byzantines for 300 years.
▶ 1:21:21The Romans were there, and that's just the modern history of Syria. It goes back tens of thousands of years. I think if we're going to understand Syria, we need to understand the history of the different ethnicity ethnic groups in the area, but it's also imperative that we understand the topography of the area.
▶ 1:21:37The the importance of the Euphrates River running from the the north southeast, or south, um, yeah, southeast, as well as the mountains running, uh, vertical from south to north, uh, because to fail to understand that, we will fail and make mistakes, uh, with unintended consequences. I yield back. I now recognize Representative Zinke for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to turn my attention to the PKK, which is a Marxist terrorist organization. I do think it was a mistake of this government to arm them.
▶ 1:22:06Because the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Uh, it's like, and because the Kurds, I think we made a mistake to think that all Kurds were the same. Just like all Irish the same, except the Now, having said that, uh, the Kurds, or the the Syrian government, as it is, has said that they are disarmed. I'd like your opinion on on what that disarmament really means and are they?
▶ 1:22:31And and and doctor, if you would go Doctor Anna. Well, I mean firstly, let me just say I think I think the announcement that the PKK was dis- dis- disarmed is is is historically important. When I think about the K PKK, I think about the fact that it was the Soviet Union that helped uh helped empower this organization in the first place. So, I think so I think if it is in fact disbanded, it is a step in the right direction.
▶ 1:23:03Do you think they're really disbanded? I'm So, I I don't have I I don't have accurate information that they really have disbanded and I think that it it it behooves us to continue monitoring this issue, but I I don't have that Dr. Altman, your opinion? I don't think they've decided what this all means yet. I'm not sure the Turkish government is confident what it all means yet. It's an And it requires watchful waiting.
▶ 1:23:33I agree with you on on many of the threats, but I also think we shouldn't close the door on the possibility that this conflict is entering a very different phase than it's been in for many years. And sir? I agree I agree with John Congressman. I think that this is a start. I I think it's far from clear that the PKK has put down his weapons and and all the people that were at one time of the PKK or that they're finished.
▶ 1:24:04the ISIS individuals that are in prisons, there are a number of them. The former PKK has is guarding them. What should be our policy other than sending them to El Salvador?
▶ 1:24:21Well, the policy has been Congressman that the repatriation ultimately of these people to go back to the countries that they were from and that they would be responsible for them in those As you know, uh no country wants to take back uh mem- former members of ISIS. It's been a very slow process. Um Iraq is taking back some. Um other countries Oman has taken back some people, I believe.
▶ 1:24:49Um our policy should be for the government of Syria ultimately to be responsible for these camps. Doctor, you agree? I once again agree with my old friend David Schenker. So, how big of a threat are they if they were released uh into the population? I think you'd see Congressman that the immediate resurgence of of ISIS in the I agree. And and And doctor?
▶ 1:25:17There's no question in my mind that some people can be reformed. There's also no question in my mind some people cannot be reformed. And you would see increased ISIS activity. There already is of course ISIS activity. And you would see more of it. In interest of time, I'll let my colleagues also give questions. I yield Thank you, Representative. Thank you. I now recognize Representative Meeks, the chairman of the Oversight Subcommittee for 5 minutes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:25:47Schenker, I wanted to go back to one of the things you talked about. Um you said that they want to show inclusivity but nothing has been done But my understanding is is that you have the Minister of Labor and Social Affairs Hien Kabbawat who is Christian. You have Amjad Bitar who is the Minister of Agriculture who is a Druze. would you like to kind of restate what you meant by that statement just to be Yeah, thank you, Congressman.
▶ 1:26:16Um I was talking about if you look at overall composition of the government between, uh, for example, men and women. And also, um, if you look at, um, what the what these communities said after the um, meetings and the consultations about whether their, um, whether their inputs were appreciated, taken into consideration, incorporated into the the draft documents.
▶ 1:26:45I think that there was a a lot of complaints from the communities. But speaking on the documents, I mean, in 2025, under al-Shara, he signed an agreement with the Druze representatives from Sweida province, which integrated the Druze into the entire state So, this is obviously a very pivotal step, something that not even, uh, Assad or any of the others were willing to do.
▶ 1:27:04And uh, and and talking about inclusivity, as you know, even some of our own allies are just now starting to incorporate women into the ministries, ambassadorial positions, et cetera, based on cultural, uh, understandings and nuances. You also mentioned the IAEA, which is very important part, but who is actually the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons, has been in there on multiple occasions inspecting every single one of the actual sites, and to include 22 sites just in the last week and a half,
▶ 1:27:34and how they would actually look at safely. This is the key thing. People think that you can just go ahead and pick up these chemicals and just toss them out in the trash, and we're going to be good. But safely be able to dispose of this so they can't be utilized in the, uh, Uh, we also talked about, and I I agree with this. This is going to be one of those relationships that we have to not only be cautious of based on backgrounds and past experiences, but it's going to be a trust but verify relationship, and we know that very well in any conflict post-conflict areas.
▶ 1:28:02But if we took the broad brush approach that someone's past therefore defines their future, we wouldn't have alliances with Japan and Germany to this day. And so I think that we need to keep this in mind because what I have seen so far is the current administration there has not only partnered with Iraq CTS and the US to help continue counter-ISIS operations.
▶ 1:28:23They have not only continued to stop the illicit weapons transfers of Hashd al-Shaabi and the Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq Iranian regime-backed militia groups through Syria into Lebanon to be utilized to attack, but just today 15 anti-tank guided missiles and 30 crates of heavy-caliber ammunitions that was concealed by smugglers in a truck headed to Hezbollah was blocked and prevented from being able to be utilized by Israel against Israel.
▶ 1:28:51I say this to explain that not actually looking at a way to try and work with the Syrian people to get a democratically elected free Syrian government only opens the door for our adversaries like Russia who when I spoke with President al-Shara said that he already had a proposal on the table by Russia that they were demanding that be signed. And he refused because he said I would rather partner with the West to start developing our nation.
▶ 1:29:19When he talked about Iran, he said that we've not only pushed Iran out, but we will never allow Syria to be a proxy state of Iran. They can have a diplomatic opening of their consulate or their embassy, but we will even limit the number of visas for Iranians to come here because we know their influence operations and their capabilities. This is a man who fought in combat in both the good side and the bad side. So, he understands how these operations work. what would be a greater risk?
▶ 1:29:46Not looking to work with Syria and make them an ally and help the regional stability and protect the great state of Israel or to allow them to fall into the hands of the predatory manners of Russia and Iran and China? Congressman, I I agree with you all hardly. Um as I said earlier, um the chemical weapons, the WMD, the IAEA, the counter-terrorism cooperation, these are our high points.
▶ 1:30:11I think there is some criticism on the inclusivity part, um, but I'm all for working with this government. Um, this is the only game in town, and it's our opportunity to lose. I agree. So, we should be on the ground And I think that not even allowing China into the palace, which is something that he's done, shows even a further, uh, desire to work with the West. I think that helping to establish good neighbors, as Robert Frost the good fences make good neighbors relationship with Israel, will protect our allies there.
▶ 1:30:41And I think that people understand that if you study the geopolitics of the Middle East, making sure Syria is stable will ensure that we can have a stable Middle East, which was President Trump's America First agenda and promise. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. With that, I yield back. Thank you, Representative Mills. Echo your, uh, sentiments. Uh, I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to these in writing.
▶ 1:31:10Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have 5 days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record, subject to the length limitations. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.