▶ 0:00:00or establish appropriate liability, we should welcome it, embracing the critical roles of states, not only to protect consumers, but be the laboratory of democracy. Right now, the FTC, FCC, and CFPB risk being cops off of their beat, and Congress must empower them, resource them, and restore them in order to aggressively protect consumers. Uh, the American people deserve nothing less. Thanks again for the opportunity to testify, and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. I thank you all for your testimony. We will now move on to questioning.
▶ 0:00:29I will begin to recognize myself for five minutes. Mr. Burku, the broadband association's industry traceback group conducted more than 3600 tracebacks of suspected unlawful robocalls in 2024. Generally speaking, what percentage of unlawful robocalls are foreign Uh thank you for the question.
▶ 0:00:52Uh so I don't have an exact number on on uh how many came from foreign uh foreign countries or foreign entities but we do know that a lot of the fraud does come from abroad. Illegal telemarketing we see that sometimes originate at home sometimes abroad but a lot of the fraud does originate uh overseas and one of the things we've been seeing a lot lately is because so much of enforcement and regulation was focused on who brought the illegal call into the country.
▶ 0:01:17What we're now seeing is some of the bad actors spinning out US-based LLC's so that we're tracing it to a US entity that probably has no no uh people in the United States at all. Do we dealing with the foreign actors though that creates some tremendous challenges because we can't charge them with a crime right now unless they're operating in country. Is there any recourse through civil action? I mean, what what recourse do you have to deal with foreign actors? And be as brief as you can.
▶ 0:01:45Yeah, I I think c I think we can do criminal action and I think that needs to be a priority. The same people attacking us here are attacking other countries as well. I think there's a lot of opportunities for collaboration and just to give you one anecdote, when the FBI did work uh several years ago with the Central Bureau of Intelligence in India to raid some of the call centers there, we saw IRS robocalls drop 80% overnight. Mr.
▶ 0:02:07And can you tell us how CTIA's secure messaging initiative works to uh trace back robot text and how effective has this been to to stop illegal un unwanted robots? Thank you for the question.
▶ 0:02:21CTIA's secure messaging initiative was launched to convene the messaging ecosystem and the various players that have a role there in protecting consumers so that we can facilitate information sharing among the industry stakeholders to complement their existing industry tools to better fight the bad actors and then to share that information with law enforcement partners at the FCC, FTC, DOJ, and the 50 state attorney general enforcement task force.
▶ 0:02:47To date, we've done over 172,000 roots as part of those information packages that we share with law enforcement. And we've done um over a dozen of those packages um that focus on scams that you all have seen, including um government or bank impersonation, package delivery um and AI enhanced scams as well.
▶ 0:03:07Um, we continue to focus on the areas where we're hearing um that scams are happening for consumers so that we give that information to law enforcement so they can prioritize their efforts um to go after the bad actors and stop the traffic at the source. Mr. Burku, I want to go back to you. Um, how widely has the stir shake and caller ID um authentication framework been implemented and and what percentage of the providers still need to implement the framework?
▶ 0:03:33So under FCC rules, it's implemented on the IP portions of providers networks and we've seen a shift in in practice because of especially the high volume illegal telemarkers. One of the things they I think because of stir shaking have moved away from spoofing to actually getting real numbers which stir shaking doesn't directly address. Okay. Mr.
▶ 0:03:51What I expect in your testimony you you were talking about how the private right of action has been abused and it's harmed by illegal and scam um harmed by illegal it's been abused instead of protecting people who've been harmed by um scam robocalls. uh it's led to um basically a cottage industry uh that's attacking legitimate uh companies.
▶ 0:04:21Can you talk a little bit about that? Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um well, in the statements from the opening statements from the panel, then obviously from the witnesses here, there there seems to be a unified focus that these bad actors a lot of times which are very hard to find which are located overseas, those are the true ones driving a lot of this issue. the private right of action provisions within TCPA are not utilized to go after those bad actors. Instead, a cottage industry is developed to go after simply where there's opportunities to make money.
▶ 0:04:47Um, and also the the provisions of the P within TCPA are extremely broad compared to other federal statutes. There's there's no cap uh there's no caps on on recovery as you see in HIPPA, no safe harbor provision you see in Kappa, no cap on on attorney fees as you see in other statutes. And so it's created a class action uh uh factory that's being exploited by just a handful of firms and a lot of become a predatory use of the private right of action.
▶ 0:05:14I I saw where one of the uh judgments was for 260 something million dollars. Um so how how do we respond to that? I think we borrow from other statutes already in place at the federal level. You look to HIPPA to put a cap on the total recovery. They set that at 25,000. There's no cap here. It's up to 15,000 per occurrence under this statute, which absolutely drives those numbers up. And most of these suits, they're not trying to win in court.
▶ 0:05:41They're just trying to drive discovery to make it very expensive and drive settlement. And you're seeing it play out time and time again. In fact, there's one law firm that has done over 155 cases over a three-year period on this front. They've developed a niche market. There's even one plainif who has done almost 125 himself on this issue. So, you have a handful of folks exploiting this system. that's not helping the consumers that desperately need some of the help from these uh these scam robocalls. Thank you.
▶ 0:06:08The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee, Miss Clark, for five minutes for her question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Unwanted calls continue to be the top consumer complaint received by the FCC, the Federal Communications Commission. 2024, Americans received over 52 billion roocalls and 49% of those robocalls were scams or from telemarketers. Mr.
▶ 0:06:35Burku, how has the robocall and rootex threat landscape changed since the implementation of the traced act and stir and shaken? So, I think we uh we've made a lot of progress, but as you're recognizing, there's there's work left to do. Um we have seen complaints. They're still too high, but they've dropped pretty dramatically from um the highs from several years ago. We've seen some of the bad actors instead of for scam robocalls.
▶ 0:07:00They're someday they're about 50% of what they once were for scam robocalls, but we've seen the scammers move from mass roocalls to more targeted, more sophisticated attacks where they know who exactly who they're calling. So that's a little bit of how this has changed over time. Well, thank you. So, we still have more to do. With the work left undone in the fight against phone scams, it baffles me that the Trump administration is undermining the government institutions that combat them.
▶ 0:07:29In March, President Trump attempted to illegally remove Senate confirmed commissioners from the Federal Trade Commission, an independent agency with the explicit me mission to protect the public from unfair and deceptive business practices like unlawful telemarketing and robocalls.
▶ 0:07:47And in April, in accordance with the Trump administration instruction, the Department of Justice announced plans to dissolve its consumer protection branch, which tries cases targeted large targeting largecale scams against seniors, AI, and cyber crimes against consumers and illegal telemarketing. This just makes no sense.
▶ 0:08:08The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, FCC, FTC, and the Department of Justice have all been hit by early retirements, terminations, and deferred resignations. And they are all agencies that combat the robocall problem we are gathered to discuss today. Mr. Winters, how does an unstable and depleted FCC and FTC workforce impact the role both agencies play in addressing the robocall scams? Thanks for the question.
▶ 0:08:38Um, I mean a underresourced these underresourced consumer protection agencies is just a big win for scammers, right? Uh, less cops on the beat mean less consequences and uh they can sort of act with impunity. And so uh what we need to be doing and I think was reflected in uh all of our testimony today is that we need more enforcement, more resources and more proactive behavior. And uh everything about from firing commissioners to budget cuts uh goes exactly against that. Thank you.
▶ 0:09:06Last week, President Trump released a detailed fiscal year 2026 funding proposal. If enacted, this proposal would make permanent and add to the number of fired federal employees, including 74 at the FCC, 83 at the FTC, and 32 of which are identified as consumer protection roles.
▶ 0:09:29The proposal also cuts 42 million from the FTC and more than 18 million of which would go directly toward protecting consumers. Mr. Winters, what would happen to the robocall fighting infrastructure if the federal government pulled back from its role, whether it be from a lack of manpower, funds, or general disinterest in holding scammers accountable? Uh, in the interest of time, I'll be simple and that it will get worse.
▶ 0:09:56And what do the government actions we have discussed today tell the scammers and fraudsters who conduct robocalls and texts about the priorities of the US government? Do you think actions like these make robocalls more likely to occur in the future? Yeah, I mean I think uh it does it incentivizes bad behavior. It makes people feel like we are absolutely not going to be able to uh we're not going to get enforcement action against us. Uh it's going to be hard to track.
▶ 0:10:23It's hard to track when you have a fullcourt press uh against it and we've seen that for years. But if we're pulling back, then that's even, you know, an an unimaginable harm for American consumers. Very well. Well, Mr. Chairman, in their written testimony, several of today's witnesses said Congress must increase support for and prioritize enforcement actions if we truly want to stop bad actors. The experts are calling for more funding and enforcement, not less. and I ask my colleagues across the aisle to listen to them.
▶ 0:10:53With that, I yield back. Thank you, Mrs. Clark. Uh, next is chairman of the full committee, Mr. Guthrie. Thank you. I thank all the witnesses for being here. I appreciate um you all been here this morning and uh so Mr.
▶ 0:11:07Brooku in July of 2020 the FCC first selected US telecom uh the broadband association's industry traceback group as the single registered consortium to conduct privateled traceback efforts and has redesign US telecom's ITG each year since so could you kind of explain I know I've gone between two hearings so if you if you're repetitive it helps me to repeat anyway so um how does trace back work and how has the US telecom ITG helped the FCC with its efforts to fight illegal single robocalls.
▶ 0:11:38Yeah, absolutely. So, trace back helps solve for one of the problems where which was when a call is spoofed. Um, and we don't know where it's coming from. The carrier doesn't know exactly where it came from. Stir shaking helps with that. But, but trace back goes even farther and we go hop by hop in a a semi-automated system through a portal and we find out exactly where it's coming from. And in fact, in our trace backs have identified over 2,000 providers from 75 different countries.
▶ 0:12:04So we'll trace it all over the world till we can find out who's making the calls and and actually disrupt it there. Our data has been used uh for virtually every robocall enforcement by the FCC, by the FTC, by the state AGS. So it's been a very successful partnership with the industry and government. Well, shouldn't the technology be in place? Let's say if I'm sitting in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and a phone calls coming from Nigeria that's not in my data in my cell phone or anything like that. Um should that be block? I mean, is there there's technology that can block that from coming?
▶ 0:12:33I mean, you have to sign up for it, I guess, I I gather, but there's technology that keeps that from coming to your phone, doesn't it? So, the the the challenge is that there's not perfect information at at the carrier side about where that call's coming from. Stir shaken helps with that. I'm optimistic that a recent rule clarification the FCC did last year that will continue to advance stir shaken and the impact there. So, but that's the challenge and and so there there's definitely tools to to achieve that, but the carriers don't have perfect information. Did I know that call was coming from Niger?
▶ 0:13:03My understanding is that when a lot of these robocall calls happen, they're not um like I'm calling Neil Dunn in Florida and and faking him out or something. I'm like I'm a criminal in Bowling Green calling Neil Dunn in Florida. It's usually spam is just thousands of calls instantaneously going out. Can carriers not determine that and block those calls? So that that type that it still happens, but that's at a fraction of what it once was thanks to enforcement, thanks to the trace act, thanks to stir shaking. Those types of calls are down uh depending on the day you look about about 50%.
▶ 0:13:32Um where we've seen fraud calls, a lot of the the robocalls that people still hate, a lot of those are illegal telemarketing. That's the majority of the robocalls people get where it's it's telemarketing that no one consented to and they're they're violating the TCPA. Um but what we're seeing with the scams are the scams are getting more sophisticated, more uh more targeted where they are targeting individuals. Okay. So So Mr. Lean, could you talk about how the CTA um is trying to fight help fight these spam calls and robocalls?
▶ 0:14:02Sure thing. Thank you for the question. Um as Josh said, um the you probably need your mic. I know. There you go. Try that again. Yeah, perfect. It was on. Is it on now? Maybe just closer to it. Yeah, closer to it. Sorry, can't see if it's on or not. Um thank you for the question. Um like Josh's members, um the wireless industry are dedicated to protecting consumers from illegal and unwanted robocalls.
▶ 0:14:28Um we helped lead the way in developing the stir shaken framework and we supported um this committee's efforts through the trace act to promote the deployment of that and it's now um working well as a call authentication tool to help um protect consumers from spoofed calls. It's just one tool in the toolbox though. So, especially over the last few years, um, we've been developing lots of different call blocking, labeling, filtering tools to complement stir shagen as part of a multi-pronged approach to protect consumers from roocalls.
▶ 0:14:54Um, at CTIA, we're developing the next generation of call authentication, which is branded calling or CTI's BC ID or branded calling ID, which gives consumers even more information about who's calling and why. um to help empower consumers about whether to answer the phone again as well as protecting them by providing consumer resources that educate them about which calls to ignore um so that we're um kind of coming at it from all fronts. I assume that could be a compare an advant a competitive thing between providers to say hey if you use our our service we can help you block your robocalls.
▶ 0:15:25I assume that would be uh so Mr. Waggaspach um how about increasing fines for legal robocalls? What would that would such a change affect the legitimate businesses and how could we improve collection of existing fines or overall enforcement? My phone just spoke ironically. Um you know obviously uh FCC and FTC I think have done a really great job working with industry partners to develop through traceback and other initiatives to identify those.
▶ 0:15:50So we definitely encourage strong enforcement and and add that DOJ should also go after these bad actors any way we can. We think going through those channels as compared to unleashing a small niche cadre of plan of firms to go after quite frankly credible businesses just because they they can't find the bad actors has been the wrong minor approach within TCPA. So it's that private right of action that truly we think um is a disincentive to businesses to reach out to develop those partnerships with their consumers that quite frankly most their consumers want. Okay. Thank you.
▶ 0:16:20Well, my time's expired. I'll yield back. Appreciate you all being here. Thanks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, next up is the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Palon. Thank you so much. And look, I think we all know we have to do more to stop these dangerous and unwanted calls and texts that continue to bombard Americans. I mean, I get so many myself every day. And they're not just harassment. They're they're causing real harms. The phone scams alone defrauded Americans of $25 billion in 2023.
▶ 0:16:48Now the trace act which I authored in 2019 required the implementation of the stir shake and call authentication technology to help verify the legitimacy of calls. So I want to ask Mr. Baron no I'm sorry Burr Q you run the industry trace back group which traces calls to their origin as required by the trace act on behalf of the communications industry.
▶ 0:17:11In your testimony, you discuss how industry is utilizing this framework to fight the problem of robocalls and to protect consumers from scam artists. What more can industry do to protect consumers from unwanted and dangerous robocalls uh and rootex? I I'm going to ask you a question and then Mr. Winters. So, couple of minutes. Sure. So, uh thank you for the question. Um ranking member Palone. I I think the industry we do have blocking labeling deployed. We do have stir shaken is deployed.
▶ 0:17:38I think there's a lot of work there, but I think what our experience shows is that when we're dealing with whether it's the illegal telemarketers, whether it's the criminal fraudsters abroad, they they don't stop because it gets a little bit harder. This is their business. So, they keep trying to find new paths. So, I think what we see with trace back, we are tracing them back. We've adapted to tracing back the targeted scam calls, working closely with the financial sector, other sectors as well. I think that's more of the work to be done, complemented by very aggressive enforcement against the actual bad actors. Oh, thank you.
▶ 0:18:08So, in March, President Trump illegally, in my opinion, fired the two Democratic FTC commissioners, meaning that their crucial voices are missing from any discussion at FDC of how to better protect consumers from robocalls and robots and they have my full support in their ongoing lawsuit to be rightfully restored at the FDC. And I think that's the very first step that needs to be taken.
▶ 0:18:32But just last year, I introduced and I mentioned also the do not disturb act, a comprehensive piece of legislation that aims to build on the success of the traced act. And it would ensure that scam artists using illegal robocalls or robotex can't explain can't exploit new loopholes as new technology makes it even easier for frauders to steal from Americans. So, Mr. Winters, I have two questions. You got two minutes. Do you agree there's a need for legislation to provide update to current laws like last year's do not disturb act?
▶ 0:19:02And do the FTC and FCC need more authority from Congress to fight text message scams? Is it just money and enforcement or they actually need more authority if you will? Thank you. Um yeah, so on that first question uh I think there's a lot more that Congress can do and there's there's more that they need to do.
▶ 0:19:22Um and so whether that is some of the provisions in the do not disturb act like uh codifying the rule about AI disclosures and increasing penalties for uh AI generated scam calls.
▶ 0:19:36uh there is a lot more that can be done by Congress including uh giving more resources to uh just not just FCC but to state attorneys general who are leading the forefront of a lot of this work and uh increasing collaboration like uh but do they need more authority though? They do need more authority. Um one thing in particular is that they're not able to directly collect fines.
▶ 0:19:59uh they have to refer uh fine collection to the Department of Justice and so they have to rely on another uh overworked agency to uh collect fines and we see a lot of times uh although there are big headlines and numbers of fines the the FCC might not actually be able to resolve and get a lot of that money back. So that's one thing that needs to be uh done in terms of authority.
▶ 0:20:20Uh and they also need the authority to uh put more automatic suspension and provisions uh in the uh robocall mitigation database so that when there are repeat bad actors, they are automatically taken out. They can't just stay in the robocall mitigation database. There is not enough uh sort of continued standards and continued enforcement using that. Well, thank you. And Mr. Chairman, as you can see, I think there's a question more more authority that's needed for the agencies.
▶ 0:20:49Uh, but I'll repeat what I said earlier, which is they also need more resources and staff and cutting back on staff and firing, you know, some of the commissioners is certainly not the way to go if you really want to try to improve the situation with robocalls. And so, you know, I would not only ask that we try to move towards more authority uh to fight these scams, but also, you know, provide the resources, not cut the resource, not cut the staff. And uh with that, I'll yield back.
▶ 0:21:20Thank you, Mr. Palone. I am up next. So, uh welcome everybody. I'm glad you're able to join us. Um Miss Lean, I will direct my questions to you uh this morning. According to the FCC, text message scams have increased 500fold in recent years. How have scams become more sophisticated over the years? Thanks for the question.
▶ 0:21:45Um, CTI and our members are dedicated to protecting consumers from scam and spam text messages while also making sure that legitimate ones go through because we know that consumers open and read and trust their text messages as one of the most preferred platforms for communications today. Um, over the years we have seen bad actors increasingly target text messaging because they know that consumers open and read those texts. So, as bad actors have evolved and enhanced their tactics, we've evolved and enhanced our defenses as well.
▶ 0:22:11So um over the years we've enhanced our blocking filtering tools um by enhancing them with machine learning and AI. Um we've launched the secure messaging initiative which is our work to partner with law enforcement to give them um actionable information about bad actors so that they can go and take traffic off at the source.
▶ 0:22:31Um, and those are working to um, help the FCC, the FTC, DOJ, and um, the Attorney General Enforcement Task Force um, in giving them information they can go after um, bad actors with. Okay. Thank you very much. You're also answering my followup. Um, are mobile carriers and other industry players doing enough to address the growth in scam and illegal robot text? Our industry is really dedicated to this issue.
▶ 0:22:53So, um, as just one metric, we've blocked over 55 billion texts last year while also making sure that the legitimate ones go through and supporting over two trillion uh, legitimate texts. So, it really is always a balance, but we've dedicated a lot of different resources to um, enhancing our protections against bad actors. Um, in terms of more things we can do, again, we welcome help from Congress and prioritizing resources towards enforcement so that the agencies we work with can take on more of those cases, do more investigations, and go after the bad actors to stop that traffic at the source.
▶ 0:23:24All right, thank you. How well are mobile carriers engaging with states and other entities for information sharing and enforcement? For example, with the scam tool texts, did mobile carriers pause delivery and contact state toll authorities to verify the legitimacy of the numbers? Our members were focused on the toll road scams as well as um the other versions of that um as part of our work to protect consumers from all those types of scams that impersonate legitimate businesses.
▶ 0:23:50um the wireless carriers as well as other partners in the messaging ecosystem, including providers of other types of messaging apps that were targeted by that type of scam, including over-the-top onlinebased and app-based messaging. All we're working together to share information with law enforcement to help them find the bad actors responsible and take them off the field. Okay, thank you.
▶ 0:24:10um how how can we get mobile carriers to better engage and pull their weight to stop the flood of root texts at the same levels rooc calls at at the same level they did for rooc calls I'm sorry um the the wireless industry and our messaging ecosystem partners are really focused on this issue um for years we have been seeing bad actors really target the voice network because um there were um not not blocking and other protections in place until the last few years in text messaging we've actually had um the ability to block and to filter
▶ 0:24:40and to employ upfront betting and verification for decades. And so for a long time um the messaging platform was really protected from bad actors. Of course bad actors are getting more sophisticated and over the last few years targeting text messaging more but um this has been an area of focus and a priority for our members for years and we continue to dedicate significant resources toward protecting consumers while maintaining trust in text messaging. Okay, thank you very much. I yield back my remaining time. Uh, next up is the gentle lady from Colorado, Mrs. Dette. Thank you so much.
▶ 0:25:10Um, so I just got back along with many of our colleagues on this committee from a conference on artificial intelligence. And so I'd like to talk with you about that today. Um, because I think it's really being um, implemented in a disturbing way to by scammers to find new ways to deal with Americans.
▶ 0:25:33Um, a lot of us have been hearing these chilling stories about how somebody gets called by somebody who they think is their child or their parent and asked as asks for money and the the voice sounds eerily like their loved one. So, Mr. Winters, I want to ask you, how has AI technology been used to create more sophisticated robocall and rootex scams that target consumers? Thanks for the question.
▶ 0:26:00um it's been in a lot of different ways and so I'll I'll categorize the two different types of AI systems in it. So one in in text generation services like sort of I mentioned in my opening statement uh whether it's something like chatgbt or claude that you might have played around with or or one of the one that even has less moderation uh you can create a bunch of texts really quickly that have uh good grammar and you know seems like you know you don't have the the bells going off in your head from them. Uh so you can do that.
▶ 0:26:28You can have a list of people's names, uh target based off their location, uh other information you have, have it connect to a link of a, you know, a wallet or a zel or something like that. Uh so it's just a sort of scale and accuracy and plausibility thing. The other big category is the sort of impersonation of people whether that be through voice or video.
▶ 0:26:48And that's where you see the really harrowing stories of sort of like uh real time fraud and deep fake stuff that uh you know have uh not only caused a lot of emotional harm but have sort of ruined people's lives. Uh yeah. Yeah. So, so this kind of goes without saying, but because of this degree of sophistication, even when you have an educated consumer, it becomes much more difficult to identify these scams. Absolutely.
▶ 0:27:15Um, I mean, I think that one thing is it's really difficult and kind of an impossible proposition to have uh all American people be able to spot when something is AI in the moment and then not respond to the emotional sort of I'm your son and I'm in jail thing, even if you do are able to flag that. Uh and then all uh not all AI generated anything will be a scam or a fraud. So it's complicated there uh because you don't necessarily want to teach that uh it'll just get people paranoid.
▶ 0:27:41So uh it's really uh on should be on the companies and on the So if if we're not going to rely on the um on the consumers um for uh by education, Miss Lean, uh what more can industry do to filter these messages and prevent them from ever getting to the victims? So as uh Mr.
▶ 0:28:01Winard said it's a a balanced approach to make sure that we're blocking um the messages that we don't want consumers to receive and they don't want to receive while also making sure that legitimate ones go through. That's right. So with um AI enhanced scams for example um there are aspects of that that um we can also detect using AI um by analyzing vaster quantities of data by enhancing our existing tools and algorithms and frameworks and then by complementing those with um large fraud teams to help protect consumers from scams
▶ 0:28:31and and do you think that that the federal agencies have the necessary authorities to fight against these scams or can companies do it themselves? Do they have the authority to do it? Um, we value our partnerships with all the law enforcement entities including the FCC, FTC, right? Do you think they have enough authority to do it? We think, yes or no, will work. We think that the best authority uh the best way for them to continue to help us is by prioritizing resources towards enforcement resources.
▶ 0:28:58So that means Congress and the administration have to adequately fund them, right? We continue to work. No. Yes or no? We'll work. Yes. Okay. Uh, Mr. for winter. Do you think they have enough authorities? Uh, no. And why is that? Uh, I mean, if they did and they had the resources as well, I think we probably would not be here today. Uh, you know, they need uh an ability to, as I mentioned, follow up on the fines that they levy and actually collect those.
▶ 0:29:26They need uh sort of required transparency and basic moderation challenges uh uh obligations for AI companies. Um there are lots of things that just using something like a unfair deceptive practices authority are unequipped. Okay. Thank thanks. We look forward to working with you to see what new authorities we want. I I just have a little time left.
▶ 0:29:47So I want to ask you one more question um in the bill the the um uh great big bill a couple of weeks ago that we're now learning uh all of the things that were included. One of the thing that was included in the reconciliation package was a 10-year moratorum on state and local enforcement of their own AI bills. Does a 10-year moratorium on state AI bills prevent states from using evolving technologies to help fight this program?
▶ 0:30:15And do you think that's something Congress should look look at, Mr. Wyers? Um, so we vehemently oppose the moratorum provision. Uh, I don't think the moratorium as written would stop state agencies from using AI, but it would harm consumers uh, without a doubt. Thank you. I yel back. Thank you. Uh, next up is my good friend, Mr. Griffith from Virginia. Let me start in a little bit different direction than I plan on going.
▶ 0:30:39Miss Lean, you were asked about adequate funding a minute ago, and I got the sense that while you were told to give a yes or no answer, you want to see the Federal Trade Commission and others receive adequate funding, but it seemed to me that you were not trying to get into the debate as to what the definition of adequate funding is. Am I correct that that I read your body language correctly that you didn't want to get into that debate, but you do want them to be adequately funded? That's right. It's up to each agency to allocate resources to their enforcement teams.
▶ 0:31:05Um but what we've said is and what we're seeing with our work with our enforcement partners is that sometimes um the consumer fraud um protection folks lack the personnel or resources they need to go after cases. So we welcome um you know information collection or um just a way to try to allocate the existing resources to but it's also true that AI may make this much more efficient and so we're looking forward to that too. Is that not correct? That's right. AIO I got to move on to what I really was going to go after but for you you and Mr.
▶ 0:31:34uh bear Q. The good news is is that the the fraud while terrible is on the down uh downward slope and I hear from my constituents all the time about receiving ROOC calls and a couple of years ago it was all about the fraudulent stuff and and they were they were concerned about that.
▶ 0:31:54But I will tell you in the last year, particularly in the last few months, the real concern has become uh Medicare and particularly Medicare Advantage solicitors calling up the folks in my district and I have a an older population generally speaking than most districts and they're just driving them crazy with all these calls. In a 2023 survey estimated that 30% of Medicare Advantage eligible beneficiaries receive seven or more calls a week. I got to tell you, Mr.
▶ 0:32:23Chairman, and and witnesses, I've had constituents who've told me if they only got seven a day, they'd be thrilled. They that would be a down number. Uh so, what can we do? Uh because this is a huge issue in my district. What can we do to make that situation better? Yeah, I I think that those calls, if they're roocalls, if they're telemarketing calls, uh if they may be in violation of the TCPA, they may be violation of the telemarketing sales rule. So, how do we get them to use?
▶ 0:32:50because I've asked I've said to folks as I've been talking with them, well, have you put yourself on the do not call list? And they say yes, but it doesn't seem to change anything. So, how do we make that better? I mean, so one of the things is and we'd be happy to work with you. We've got to trace back those calls. We we have to see who is ignoring the law, get that information, get that to the right enforcement authorities to go after them and and we've seen success with that. Like the auto warranty campaign was the same. We worked very closely with the states and the FCC and that went from the most prolific robocall campaign in America to to basically zero right now.
▶ 0:33:20So that's that's the answer there. All right. Well, I'd be glad to work with you anyway because, you know, when I start going to events and I started hearing this at, you know, at a majority of the events I go to, uh, whether it be a street festival or a meeting of of folks, that tells me we got a problem. Um, Miss Lean, I got the toll texts.
▶ 0:33:43Uh, of course, I called my staff assistant and said, "How come you haven't kept my account up to date?" not realizing I was on the road and she said, "It's a scam. Don't worry about it." But I've gotten a number of those things since then and some others. And apparently somebody out there thinks I need a new job and I click delete or report as junk and delete. Does that do any good? It certainly does.
▶ 0:34:12Um, that's one of the key tools that the wireless industry and our partners um, on the device side have made available for consumers to delete report junk. You can also forward your scam text to 7726, which spells spam. And both of those are key inputs for wireless providers and our messaging partners in making our algorithms and filtering and blocking more sophisticated and responsive to what we're hearing from consumers out there um, like you and others in this room that have got gotten those types of texts.
▶ 0:34:38Um, in addition, we um look at those types of scams and we develop evidence on them and refer them to our law enforcement partners for investigation through our secure messaging initiative as well. So that we're working to target the bad actors All right. I appreciate that. Uh, Mr. and I hope I get your name right. Wagishbach. Pretty good. Yeah. All right. Not too bad. Um, I don't know that I really have a question for you, but I'll just make a comment.
▶ 0:35:06As a recovering attorney, I hate the whole strike suit incident or industry where they get a niche and they just go after things. I want people to be able to sue when they're legitimately harmed. Um, and I just make the offer that if I can work with you in any way to try to make the law so that that it lets the legitimate complaint go forward, but stops the strike suits where they're just trying to make it expensive and get a settlement. You you talked about that earlier. Just let me know what I can do to be of assistance. I will try. I appreciate that.
▶ 0:35:36That's the balance we're looking for and the balance is found in other federal statutes all across the code. All right. I appreciate you. Yield back. Thank you, Mr. Griffith. Uh, next up is Mrs. Trey. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I'm glad to know that the frustration of unwanted rooc calls is as universal in Congress as it is with our constituents. Uh, according to one estimate, Massachusetts residents received over 43 million roocalls in the month of May alone.
▶ 0:36:03Each of these unwanted calls waste the precious time of the people we represent. And there are real risks that the caller on the other end is a scammer looking to swindle them out of hundreds or even thousands of dollars. The scourge of roocalls and rootexs must end. And yet the Trump administration does seem determined to cut enforcement agencies like the FCC and the FTC who fight for Americans every single day. Uh Mr.
▶ 0:36:29Winters, can you just explain uh uh in brief the role that the FCC plays in combating robocalls and texts and how uh how this agency works with um private sector partners to do that? Sure. Thanks for the question. Uh the FCC has uh a lot of responsibility uh and a lot of uh a big um you know thing to cover but um one of the things they do is maintain and establish the robocall mitigation database.
▶ 0:37:00Uh they have enforcement and investigation teams for uh you know reading consumer complaints, taking them in, analyzing it and trying to do enforcement when possible. uh and I think they also you know work with uh industry colleagues who maybe I'll speak more to that uh um to try to ensure that they are doing as much as they can uh but I think that uh already and and even when there was uh uh no no cuts to staffing uh it's really hard for them to actually make meaningful consequences for the repeat bad
▶ 0:37:30actors whether it's their inability to get the fines themselves or just the fact that there is a relatively low standard for the robocal mitigation database uh there are also sorts of reasons why even if fully staffed, they don't quite have the right authorities or the right approach. Um, and so, you know, to cut their staffing would would make it even harder. Thank you. Uh, in February, President Trump signed the executive order 142 uh15 incorrectly named ensuring accountability for all agencies.
▶ 0:38:00This EOS strips the independence from many of our regular regulatory agencies including the FCC. The FCC is essential in the fight against illegal roocalls, making the actions of the Trump administration all the more concerning. Mr. Winters, again, what effects will there be in the fight against illegal roocalls and texts if the Trump administration undermines the independence of federal agencies like the FCC? Thanks.
▶ 0:38:26Um, yeah, the the independent nature of the FCC and the FTC both is essential for them to be able to focus on consumer protection and not go down political pursuits. I highlighted a little bit in my oral and wrote more about it in my written testimony, but particularly at the FCC, uh, this relationship with the White House has taken priority and makes it so Chairman Carr is most of the time talking about DEI hiring practices at companies and threatening to pull licenses for airing interviews uh, with Democratic candidates,
▶ 0:38:56for example. um as well as you know just focusing on uh you know providing uh contracts for for people like Elon Musk in getting spectrum lines uh all of that focus is not on consumer protection right and one of the reasons why is because of that lack of independence uh where they can't focus on that because they're do sort of you know focusing on the priorities of the president. Thank you.
▶ 0:39:20The FCC's budget justification lists cracking down on illegal roocalls as a performance indicator for the agency, which is a necessary priority. Unfortunately, the Trump administration has doubled down on its mission to hamstring the federal government's ability to hold robocall scammers accountable by proposing to eliminate 74 positions at the FCC in the fiscal year 2026 budget. The FCC, however, is not alone in fighting robocalls.
▶ 0:39:49industry has in many in instances implemented solutions and voluntarily uh adopted best practices. Yes, they can always do more, but as lawmakers, we should look to build upon their good work while identifying gaps where the federal government can add value. Miss Lean, can you discuss the importance of public private partnerships in combating roocalls and rootex and suggest specific ways in which Congress can accelerate the efforts that industry has already taken?
▶ 0:40:19Thank you. Um, public private partnerships are a key tool in helping us go after bad actors so that we're stopping robocalls and robbo texts at the source. Um CTIA's members participate in the US Telecom Institute traceback group to help identify the bad actors behind illegal robocalls and our members um on the wireless side and then also in the throughout the messaging ecosystem participate in CTIA's secure messaging initiative which convenes the messaging ecosystem to share information among each other and with our law enforcement partners across the federal agencies and
▶ 0:40:49with um the state attorney general enforcement task force so that they can um take those that information and go after the bad actors as Thank you. Thank you to all the witnesses. I appreciate it. Thank you. Next up is the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Dr. Joyce. Thank you, chairman and ranking member for holding today's hearing, and thank you for all of the witnesses who have agreed to testify today.
▶ 0:41:13When I return to my district, Pennsylvania's 13th Congressional District, I hear about the pervasive and unrelenting illegal rooc calls and texts that my constituents are faced with often on a daily basis. So many of my constituents are senior citizens. I sat down and did a senior citizen seminar twice in the district in the last month. And you hear recurrent themes. You hear the grandma, grandma, it's Mike, I'm in Mexico and I'm in jail. I need your help. I need it.
▶ 0:41:43It sounded just like Mike. I hear that repeatedly when I have these uh roundt discussions with seniors. And it seems like the scammers are getting creative and finding actually new ways to trick us with incredible looking text messages and very convincing grandma and grandpa calls.
▶ 0:42:02Scammers have even learned how to incorporate a AI into intimidating loved ones to convince them to turn over personal information, credit card numbers, bank numbers. Too many of my constituents are risking their retirement savings and subsequently they lose faith in the system that we have set in place to protect them. We need to do better.
▶ 0:42:28We need to both educate consumers and anticipate the next angle of attack that these scammers will take, particularly with the assistance of our partners in law enforcement and the DOJ. Mr. Burke, your testimony mentioned a project piloted by the industry traceback group ITG in partnership with banks and carriers aimed at tackling fraud and consumer financial losses. Can you elaborate on the pilot goals and successes thus far?
▶ 0:42:57And is there collaboration with law enforcement? Yeah, absolutely. I I think some of the most promising work our industry is doing is partnering across sectors because it it the the fraudsters are are hurting our collective customers, whether that's banks or or uh the carriers and and your constituents. Um so what we've been doing is working with banks to help them identify where their number has been spoofed in a few carriers.
▶ 0:43:20So, working with the carriers, getting examples of calls that the carriers see from the bank's number, getting that back to the bank, and the bank um can tell us, "Oh, those weren't us." And we're what we're doing with that is two things. were able to trace that back, find out who made the calls, find out where the who was spoofing the number, get that information in the hands of law enforcement uh to to uh take action with it, but also help the bank identify and look at those customers and say, "Oh, did any of these customers that got the fake call pretending to be us have a suspicious transaction?"
▶ 0:43:50And helping uh to find that. And I think criminal enforcement has to be key here because that's we know the the scammers will use any tool available to them and they won't stop just because it gets a little harder. they keep evolving and so the the key is going after them and we we stand ready to continue to support that and I agree the scammers certainly have the ability uh to be incredibly crafty, devious and downright evil in this regard. Talk to me about how you interface with financial institutions to make them aware of these situations.
▶ 0:44:20So I I think that's actually one of the promising things going on uh in across the industry is that we work directly with a lot of the the financial institutions. We work with tech companies, others. Uh Marriott was mentioned before. We worked very closely with Marriott to trace the calls pertaining to be Marriott. So that's what we're doing, but there's broader conversations now about how how the industries can even uh keep growing and continue to integrate.
▶ 0:44:42In my opening testimony, one thing I I mentioned I think Congress can do to help here is a safe harbor for that fraud information sharing because I think there are questions about uh rules and risks when you do uh uh share information. And so I think that's one way we can continue to unlock those good partnerships. And and thank you thank you for being uh proactive in this. Mr.
▶ 0:45:02Waguspach, many of my constituents are in rural central Pennsylvania where internet connectivity is difficult and educational digital resources on illegal robocalls are inaccessible. How can federal agencies and industry partner coordinate efforts to better educate consumers specifically in rural areas with limited internet access and those digital resources?
▶ 0:45:27Well, I think on leaning into what what has been done since TCPA was first initiated where you have private sector solutions going in and working with not we've talked a lot about FCC and FDC but also the local law enforcement and local financial institutions on the ground there putting that initiative out there. Uh Mr. uh Burku talked about some of the information sharing that are done with the banks to prevent the fraud. There's also a second level down. It's a good example of the education program through the bankers association. They've armed about 2,000 banks out there to talk to their consumers.
▶ 0:45:58Here's a hit list of the things we will never ask you for. So if you get an email that has this, this, this, or this, ignore it. It's spam. Here's how you call us back. And so we can use the private sector, I think, to develop some of that messaging um and make sure folks under consumers can be informed at the decisions they need to be able to fight back on their own. I thank all the witnesses for presenting here today. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired and I yield back. Thank you. Next up is a gentle lady from Texas, Miss Fletcher. Well, thank you.
▶ 0:46:26Um and uh thanks to to uh our chairman Palmer and Ranking Member Clark um for convening this hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses for all of your testimony. I think it's been uh really helpful for all of us and as we've heard throughout the morning, abuse of robocalls and root texts are not just a nuisance, right? They're a danger and we need to do something about that. I appreciate the work that you are doing and also the issues that you've brought to our attention this morning and the conversation around what we can do about it.
▶ 0:46:55And you know, I I am concerned as several of my colleagues have mentioned that we're hearing consistently from you. We need more enforcement. We need more coordination. We need adequate resourcing. And we need adequate staffing to be able to do some of the things we're doing in a complex and challenging environment where the technology is moving faster than Congress, faster than our agencies. And what we're seeing at the same time is that those resources both in terms of money and staff are being cut from the administration as we speak.
▶ 0:47:25They are asking Congress to resend additional funding. They're stopping funding. And so, you know, as several of my colleagues have noted, agencies like the FCC, the FTC, and the DOJ have actually utilized the law that we passed together, the work that we've done collaboratively to understand the problems and really conduct meaningful enforcement that has stopped scammers. And now it seems like the administration is taking the cops off the beat in this area and in many others. Mr. winners.
▶ 0:47:55You noted in your testimony and you mentioned um just earlier this morning that the that the um the Trump administration has taken steps to dissolve the DOJ's consumer protection bureau. And I believe you just said the consumer protection branch of the DOJ. You just told us this morning that they had successfully prosecuted a case and stopped scammers who had um I guess it was against the data brokers who'd sold the data of 30 million Americans.
▶ 0:48:24um and that data winds up in the hands of criminals who use it in these scams and others. Um so I think it's really important that we understand that these agencies need to be um fully funded and that shuttering something like the DOJ's uh consumer protection branch, this expertled enforcement agency really puts our communities at more risk. It's not something we should be doing.
▶ 0:48:47You also mentioned in your testimony that the CFPB um the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the work that it has done in this area and the administration is also uh shuttering or attempting to shutter that agency that Congress created um and that has been really critical to protecting consumers and that's what we're talking about in this hearing, protecting consumers, protecting American citizens from these scams.
▶ 0:49:10I think that what we're hearing this morning also calls on all of us on this committee to redouble our efforts uh to do our work around creating comprehensive privacy laws that protect American consumers because what I'm hearing from you and what we're seeing is that our data is being stolen, is being sold, is being used, and it's being used by these scammers.
▶ 0:49:30So, can you take uh with the time that we have um just can you talk a little bit more about the cutting the DOJ's consumer protection branch as well as the CFPB and what that would mean, Mr. Winters, in terms of uh protecting American consumers in in this larger context.
▶ 0:49:48if you want to talk too about just the effort to to take away the staff and the funding for these agencies that are protecting consumers from robocalls and robots that we're all clearly worried about and clearly concerned we want to address. How is this going to help or hurt us um in that effort? Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for the question. uh I mean very simply taking resources away from these agencies and in the case of the CFPB and this part of the DOJ completely trying to stop all of their work is absolutely not going to help in the fight against these harms.
▶ 0:50:19Um on the DOJ consumer protection uh case that I mentioned uh yeah that is a data broker that sold list a list of over 30 million elderly Americans directly to a scammer. It's not just that it ended up in the scammer's hands. uh data brokers will sell to anyone at any time.
▶ 0:50:37And so what Congress needs to do for both scam reasons and lots of other reasons is pass comprehensive data privacy law with data minimization and uh uh private right of action and a few other key things or at least if you want to be more focused it should be focused on restricting the sale of consumer data.
▶ 0:50:53uh CFPB specifically the the um shuttering that really cuts off a essential resource for people that are victims of scams especially uh they have uh had you know counselors people that answer the phone and take complaints and try to get things revol resolved for you there's a bunch of great stories of people that had literally had their scams resolved you know they got money back from their bank with the help of CFPB professionals so they can do things on enforcement and work with financial actors where people are losing their
▶ 0:51:23uh but they also are just critical support and they provide also tracking of those uh complaints and uh you know gets it to state AGS and those who can help. Well, thank you Mr. Winters. I've gone over my time. I do have more questions for the panel so I will submit them for the record and I will yield back. Thank you. Thank you. Next up is uh Mr. Tomco. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 0:51:46Americans received over 52 billion robocalls in 2024, which is nearly 200 calls for every American adult. And Americans also have lost 25 billion annually to scams that begin as spam calls. Unfortunately, we know the scammers often target older Americans who are especially vulnerable victims to these scams. Older adults in particularly lost 4.9 billion through all types of fraud last year alone.
▶ 0:52:12I know I listened to the exchange that you had with uh my colleague, Representative Dette, but want to delve into this um with the senior perspective. Certain scams put even the most technical savvy at risk. Um scams that in some cases mimic law enforcement, hospitals, or Medicare, or the voices of family members seeming to be in danger or in need of money. So, Mr. Winters. What specific tactics do scammers use to target seniors and other vulnerable groups?
▶ 0:52:43Yeah, I mean uh and thank you for the question. Um scammers in general capitalize on uncertainty and fear. Uh and especially for con, uh uh seniors, uh especially those who are on a fixed income. uh all sorts of concerns about an unpaid bill uh a toll account that you don't quite have set up yet uh Medicare uh you know potential fraud and and uh targeting like they are going to be thinking that the senior citizens are good targets for it.
▶ 0:53:12This is exactly why we had the case where data broker bought a large list of senior citizens and targeted them with scams and that's you know a terrible thing. Uh and so again, yeah, they try to capitalize uncertainty and fear and that's why you see uh lost bills. Job opportunities, especially in this current climate where a lot of people are getting fired and the economic uncertainty is everywhere. The job opportunity scams are going to be more people are going to fall for them because uh it's you know you want a job, you need a job, you need to pay your bills.
▶ 0:53:41So uh you know I think that those are some of the ways in which they're targeting everyone but you know are are uh hitting consu uh seniors most. And what prevention strategies have been the most successful in in that fight against illegal robocalls and texts? Yeah, so um you know there have been really strong enforcement actions by the Federal Trade Commission of uh voiceover internet providers.
▶ 0:54:07So, you know, I think the most enfor uh uh appropriate and effective enforcement is going sort of upstream. Uh especially when you are trying to get accountability for some of the actors that are providing the content or the delivery or the targets of some of these scams. Uh one other really good case uh was the writer case by the FTC uh last year where they targeted using the means and instrumentalities instrumentalities concept.
▶ 0:54:32In this case, it was a a tool that generated lots of fake reviews and the FTC was cracking down on fake reviews. But you can use that same tool to generate sort of an endless list of scam texts and that sort of you know is a force multiplier for scammers and again you know the the use of these AI tools makes it harder because you know there's no typos that it comes in you know perfect English and there's no you know these weird links that we've all sort of come accustomed to. So that makes it even tougher. Thank you.
▶ 0:55:00And Miss Lean, how is the wireless industry working to protect that older community and otherwise more vulnerable customers? That's a priority for the wireless industry. Um, and to do that, we work with ARP and we support their National Elder Fraud Coordination Center, which works to take uh reports of um victim losses in and then um bring cases against bad actors.
▶ 0:55:23We also um were happy to participate in the FTC's stop senior scams working group and we led the working group focused on text messaging issues which was a cross- sector effort to explore ways that we could do more to protect older Americans from scams. Um we also participate um in other um working groups with consumers directly to try to um push out our educational materials so that they know um which texts not to click on, which calls not to answer. Um and we have those resources on our website and our members websites as well. Thank you.
▶ 0:55:51And the AP that you mentioned has said that I quote the alarmingly high levels of fraud against older adults underscores that stronger protections are urgently needed. So as technology evolves, so must our ability to combat these illegal and harmful calls and texts. Mr. Beru, what additional tools does the industry trace back group need to protect Americans from fraudulent calls or fraudulent texts? Uh thank you for the question.
▶ 0:56:19Uh, so I mentioned in my opening testimony, I think there's ways to build on what's working um and and reinvest in our work. We are always uh adapting to the threat. A few years ago, we did we were only really tracing illegal robocalls. Now we're tracing threatening calls. We're tracing targeted scams and we and I think that doubled last year how many we traced. So we're we're always adapting and I think Congress's support on um through through uh target immunity through extending the cycle will allow us to continue to invest and innovate. Well, I thank you very much.
▶ 0:56:49And with that, I yield back. Thank you. Uh, next up is the general lady from New York, Cassia Cortez. Please. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, Mr. Winters, I I want folks back home to kind of understand why this problem is happening. You know, the average American receives about 15 rooc calls each month, but obviously depending on who you are, you could be experiencing that in a day.
▶ 0:57:18Um, and we know that it wasn't always like this. So, I want folks to understand and uh what the root of this problem is so that they also understand what some of our solutions can be.
▶ 0:57:32Is it fair to say that essentially back in the day um calls used to be routed through phone wires through your through your telecom company and so your your telecom provider whether it was Verizon or AT&T or T-Mobile they were responsible for routing the calls and therefore they were kind of able to trace who was making them. Is that right? Uh yes.
▶ 0:58:00And then as um internet applications started to grow, then voice service providers and calls over digital services started to really expand in their infrastructure. And so it wasn't just your your cell phone provider or your even your landline provider that was in charge of your phone calls. It then became kind of these other kind of internet companies, right? Yeah. There's there's a lot of intermediary service providers.
▶ 0:58:26Sometimes a call will go through like eight or 10 of them before reaching you through AT&T or whatever. Yeah. So that it is it was really in that switch from from call and telecom providers to the expanding growth of internet providers that really kind of allowed the volume of these calls to blossom because we weren't just talking about telecom regulation but internet regulation. Right. I think that's definitely uh a lot of the reason to blame for those additional intermediary providers that are harder to track through.
▶ 0:58:56And so it's not it's no longer about who your personal provider is. As you said, you could have eight you could have 10 of these companies routing this call. So you have the person who wants to make this robocall and then it just leaprogs between all these intermediary companies. Uh Mr. Winters. How many of these intermediary companies currently exist and does the government have any way to keep track of who these actors are? Um, thanks for the question. Yeah, it is uh kind of an unanswerable question.
▶ 0:59:23I think it's probably since we've been there, there's probably additional companies that have popped up and registered on the robocall mitigation database. I think last time I checked a few days ago, it was over 9,500 of these intermediary service providers. Um, and so, you know, there is a list online. Uh, is not a high barrier to entry. you have to, you know, register that you are a company. You have to put a robocall mitigation plan in the form. Uh but there's not a lot of vetting there, right?
▶ 0:59:49And if these kind of abusive companies, sure, they have to register, but if we find that they're complying, the consequence just seems to be that they get delisted from the database. Correct. Uh only sometime, not even that sometimes. Okay. Yeah. And um and but without any additional penalties, is there anything to stop these companies from just immediately getting relisted?
▶ 1:00:15Uh no, you can, you know, if you are delisted, you can uh get another corporation and set it up and sign up again. So if you're a bad actor in this space, someone that's, you know, really perpetuating spam calls, in some cases, fraudulent calls, you can be found to be breaking these rules. you can get delisted from the FCC and then you could just turn around and it's what a hundred bucks to I think that's not even necessarily in force yet but yeah it'll be 100 bucks. Yeah, it's a hundred bucks and maybe you'll have to pay it, maybe not.
▶ 1:00:46Um so clearly there's an enforcement problem here and keeping these these bad actors out of the space. um in your opinion as a consumer protection advocate, how can we as Congress work to strengthen some of these protections and what do you think some of the best uh solutions here are? Yeah, I think particularly to the lack of accountability in the robocall mitigation database. Uh you know, there's a few really easy things that either the FCC can do or Congress can instruct the FCC to do to speed that up.
▶ 1:01:14I guess uh you know there is a really low barrier of right now you have to have reasonable precautions of taking you know to mitigate robocalls and that standard should be increased to effective actual uh implementation. Uh there should be requirements for the downstream providers the bigger companies to have responsibility for the calls that they're coming in taking in from those uh 8 to 10 whatever plus uh intermediary service providers.
▶ 1:01:38Um and you know there is just insufficient tracking, insufficient consequences for repeat offenders even uh even under the the company they're doing. Uh and one thing that we advocate for uh to try to increase that accountability because it is genuinely a difficult problem to try to track all these service providers even if there's a fullcourt press.
▶ 1:01:56Um but one proposal we've put out there uh is to incre uh implement bonding for uh robocall mitigation uh database members so that a third party is incentivized uh to make sure that they're actually uh doing what they say they're going to do and help consu consumers. So very happy to work with their office to try to make that happen. Thanks. Thank you very much. I yield back. Thank you. Next up is Mr. Mullen for five minutes. Thank you Mr. Chair. Thank you all for being here today.
▶ 1:02:25Americans lose billions of dollars every year to phone-based scams. We must crack down on illegal rooc calls and root texts. With the recent enactment of laws that further empower enforcement agencies, there has been progress toward protecting people from these predatory practices, but not enough. I want to recognize former Congresswoman Anna Essu, who represents a district neighboring mine. Uh she's represented that for over 30 years before her recent retirement.
▶ 1:02:54uh want to thank her for her leadership on this issue. She introduced key legislation like the Hangup Act and the Roocalls and Text Act and I'm proud to help uplift some of uh that work that she led on in this committee and hopefully carry it forward in the future. Uh as we've heard today, more must be done to keep up with the rapidly advancing technology and the increasingly sophisticated tactics that scammers are using. Enforcement agencies need the tools and resources to stay ahead.
▶ 1:03:23The more sophisticated the methods, the more likely people fall victim to them. As more companies integrate AI into their products, it's becoming even harder for consumers to distinguish legitimate communication from fraud. Uh, Mr. Burkube, you mentioned AI generated messages are harder to detect and and can present challenges for enforcement. How can the government and industry better coordinate to establish safeguards to limit harm to people from illegal calls using AI?
▶ 1:03:52Uh, thank you for the question. I I think it the fact that the criminal actors behind these calls use AI just underscores they will use every tool, every channel available to them to defraud Americans. And I think that's one of the challenges we have is they aren't going the they're already violating the law with impunity. They're committing fraud. That's that's violation of the criminal code. So that's one of the things I think we think is we do need a national strategy.
▶ 1:04:17who we do need um to prioritize criminal enforcement because they're going to continue to use the tools and from the carrier perspective there's not going to be a good way to know which tools they're using because as Mr. Winters point out they're so far upstream um from where uh our members sit. Thank you for that. We know that certain people in our communities are particularly vulnerable like seniors and individuals with limited English proficiency. Uh Mr. winners.
▶ 1:04:43What can the FTC in coordination with other agencies do to be proactive in protecting vulnerable populations from these kinds of scams? Thanks for the question. Um, you know, I think it is a lot of the same of working to cut off the problem at the source. Uh, right.
▶ 1:05:01So whether we're talking about a AI tool that makes it super easy to generate a million texts that threaten to be uh immigration enforcement or something for example, uh the enforcement action should target those uh developers that are putting those products out there. Uh same thing goes for uh you know putting liability and responsibility for people throughout the call stream to make sure that the calls they're taking uh content from uh are you know actually doing what they're saying they're going to do.
▶ 1:05:28Um but I think that the FTC and all these uh you know state attorneys general as well uh can be doing more to uh do better investigation of what of the members of the robocall mitigation database making sure that the stir shaken protocols are implemented uh you know thoroughly and actually does what it's supposed to do. I think a lot of times we see scam calls that have the high level of attestation uh despite that's being the whole point. Uh so I think that there's just a lot more that they can do uh together.
▶ 1:05:58And uh you also strongly assert, Mr. Winters, in your testimony that the FTC's overall enforcement capacity has been diminished by the recent unlawful firings of two Democratic commissioners and deep staff and budget cuts at the agency. So, how are those agency cuts going to hinder FDC's ability to advance its efforts to combat illegal rooc calls and rootexs? Uh it will hurt their ability to do so.
▶ 1:06:22uh as as we've talked about it's already a really difficult issue even if you are trying your best and have all the resources you can if you are taking people away uh especially of an agency like the FTC that has a really broad uh jurisdiction uh of course you're going to have less resources less creative cases uh just because you know more things are being put on less people uh and the priorities aren't there uh either and so especially without the commissioners uh the two of the two of the five commissioners you don't get disscent you don't get the conversations that might generate more creative ideas or
▶ 1:06:52different ideas. Uh, and so between that and the staffing, uh, it will just make it a lot harder. Thank you for that. I yield back. Thank you. Next up is a gentleman from Texas, Mr. Fluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thanks for the witnesses being here. I want to take a little bit different approach on this and just talk about a little bit of the impact that um, I'm not sure has been fully discussed uh, today and that is to physicians.
▶ 1:07:19And I got a I'm in the process of getting um screenshots of the physicians in my district and one in particular who is showing me kind of the the impact of about 20 a day um that they're getting that is really preventing these calls. These robocalls are preventing that physician from being able to take calls from the ER or from labor and delivery. Um, and it's it's pretty concerning.
▶ 1:07:47The um, so apparently the apps that they're using to either diagnose or have conversations with um, their patients, the A Bridge app is one of them. And then there's another app, and I'm not familiar with these, so don't not the expert on this, but um, but you can't use those apps when uh, when calls are coming in.
▶ 1:08:11And so I took a uh took a just wrote down from the screenshot um the calls that recently came in. This was from uh last week on Friday. 231 253 257 348 353 358 359 438 and 448. And in that um period of time starting at 2:30 ending at almost 5:00 p.m. um you know there were a number of patients that were disrupted.
▶ 1:08:39Um, so I know we're beating a dead horse with just how uh how painful these things are. Um, but that actually is pretty serious. Um, you know, when they can't take a call from the labor and delivery, you know, section saying, "Hey, we we have a um an incident here that you need to get up pretty quick and, you know, deliver." Uh, so I'll start with Miss Lean. And by the way, thank y'all.
▶ 1:09:04I know we're all working together to try to solve these, but um you know to to what extent do you see TCPA and traced being effective? And then I'll go a step further. I know I mean we've had these discussions already in this hearing, but um you know the sense of urgency and and what else needs to be done to um prevent that physician and all the other physicians from having to deal with that in the middle of what could be an emergency situation. Thank you for the question and uh that it seems like a serious issue.
▶ 1:09:31Um, Traced and the TCPA are great tools that are helpful in um, helping bring enforcement actions against bad actors under the TCPA if you're violating those consent, auto dial, or pre-recorded voice provisions. But unfortunately, bad actors don't care about the TCPA or other laws. So, they're going to spam you no matter what.
▶ 1:09:47And that's where um our our work with law enforcement partnerships um on the calling side through the ITG or on the texting th side through the secure messaging initiative to um bring investigations against those bad actors so that we're stopping those at the source are are really helpful. Yeah. Go ahead. And I was just going to say to to support those efforts further, you know, um you've heard me say um throughout this hearing, we uh we would welcome help from Congress in prioritizing resources towards enforcement to bring more cases against those bad actors. What do you think we can do?
▶ 1:10:17And anybody's open to answer this. What do you think we can do uh for hospitals in general? Um you know, for those that are providing emergency services because nobody's using a pager anymore. It's all it's all cell phone. Maybe they need to go back to that, but um what can we do um you know, to think creatively to really stop that uh for those I mean every constituent of mine wants it stopped, but are there specific ideas? Um that's a good question.
▶ 1:10:42Um you know it's a really challenging issue especially when uh we want to make sure that um critical public safety and public health services um need to get their uh calls through um you know the same tools that we apply to protect consumers can protect um you know the personal lines of of physicians and other things call blocking call labeling call filtering services and then combining that with enforcement so that we're stopping those at the source. This particular physician goes through deletes and you know reports junk and does reports it and does all that.
▶ 1:11:09Uh so it it sounds like it's been a a continued issue. I'll go to Mr. Burku. Um when we um you know when we look at the gaps and just kind of building on this this same theme um you know are there specific um things that you would have us do to address those gaps? Uh and if so maybe describe how they affect let's just go with the physician um sector the healthare. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
▶ 1:11:38And I think, by the way, I think we have the right framework. Um, Mr. Winters was talking about the robocall mitigation database and couldn't agree more. We need to find ways to quickly find the the bad actors in that database, get them out. Um, the FCC does require that providers have uh to to do due diligence about who they take traffic from. So, we we we're developing the data to see who keeps taking traffic from these uh shell companies. So, I'm I'm optimistic we'll continue to make progress.
▶ 1:12:04There are a as Miss Lean mentioned there are blocking and labeling in specific use cases. Uh I know we work sometimes with some companies that sit on the inbound call side for a hospital and we've had successful and they have really sophisticated tools to check uh see which is the consumer which is not. So those are some of the things I'd recommend that the doctor looks into. Thank you. Time's expired. Yield back. Thank you. Uh next up is Mr.
▶ 1:12:32Allen for 5 minutes, please. I want to thank Chairman Palmer for convening this hearing and and you probably heard this today uh from every district in the country, but my constituents frequently express their frustration with the persistent barrage of illegal roocalls, roote, their nuisance u and their significant uh uh distress, anxiety particularly
▶ 1:13:03for our elderly population uh because uh some of these folks are up to no good and uh are taking advantage of uh of of our uh constituents. Uh these communications often exploit our most vulnerable in individuals uh and it it's really eroding our tr trust in the telecommunications uh systems.
▶ 1:13:29Um, I look forward to receiving updates on the progress made under existing laws and exploring actionable next steps to protect consumers and strengthen enforcement. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here with us, Mr. Burku and M. Miss. Lean. Uh, there has been a lot of public and private action in the fight against illegal robocalls both under the telephone consumer protection act and under the traced act.
▶ 1:13:55Generally, robocalls uh rooc call numbers have been on a downward trend over the years. Uh if if uh illegal robocalls trends have dropped, why am I still getting so many complaints from my Yeah. And I think uh some of the members sort of expressed it. I there are really positive numbers there. 50% reduction scam robocalls, but um not everyone's having the same experience. Some people do get more than others.
▶ 1:14:24So that is an ongoing challenge. But there I again I think we have the right framework. I think we we are tracing back those illegal calls. Some of those are illegal telemarketing. We're tracing them back. That information is making its way to enforcement. Um and in terms of the scam calls in particular, we know that they're going to keep going. Just because it gets a little harder doesn't mean they say, "Okay, we're going to go do some other line of business." They're just going to keep coming through a new channel, through a new method, through a new new uh shell company.
▶ 1:14:50And so that's really where uh we think the answer has to be actually going after them with criminal enforcement and and we think that should be a priority. Um m Miss Lean, would you care to add to that? Um I agree with what Mr. Brooku said. Um you know the the framework that we have in place continues to show um progress and we continue to build upon that with new tools um and enhance those tools with um you know machine learning and AI and the latest technologies to make them even better.
▶ 1:15:19And I agree that um more focus on enforcement um by taking those bad actors off the field is where we need help. Um we saw a group of state attorneys general for example recently get a judgment against prolific robocaller Jonathan Spiller. So that that prevents him from starting new businesses or um otherwise kind of popping up again after getting an enforcement action against him. So things like that will continue to help u make a big difference and um continue to drive those robocall numbers down. So we're identifying these bad actors. It's just a matter of prosecuting them.
▶ 1:15:49Yeah, in many cases we are we're getting good data that can lead to further investigation. It's one of the reasons I'm actually optimistic about continuing to work across sectors because we can now combine some of our data with some data that the banks can get get that through Miss Lag mentioned the ARP's national elder coordination council really aggregate data so that because that's one of the challenges if it's one scam it's hard to get a prosecutor involved but if you can show it's a multi-million dollar scam you can so that's where some of the
▶ 1:16:19work needs to go. Yeah. Well thank you uh Mr. Watkinsbach. Uh uh in April 2025, SEC issued a notice of proposed rulemaking. They proposed a two two-year timeline for providers to continue to maintain nonIP infrastructure to either complete their IP transitions or fully implement one or more of the available nonIP caller ID authentic authentification uh frameworks in their nonIP network.
▶ 1:16:47In your opinion, is the FCC's 2-year timeline reasonable? Well, I would yield to my colleagues to the right on more of the technical timeline there because they're the ones that are going to be implementing uh some of that. Um I I would say from from our perspective, if I could just since I got the mic for a second, I bring in another universe of recipient of a lot of these ROOc calls that we haven't really addressed yet is that what lies in between business and consumers a lot of times is small business because a lot of those recipients, they're kind of part consumer part business owner.
▶ 1:17:15Their cell phone becomes their business phone, their residential phone, etc. they they can't qualify for do not call if it's if it's considered business or not. That is a vulnerability that a lot of we hear from a lot from our members on small business and it's also a vulnerability that's being exploited some from some of these predatory lawsuits I mentioned earlier in my opening statement. Right. Yeah, you've answered my second question there about really no the impact of uh uh you know particularly in rural areas and other nonIP networks.
▶ 1:17:42Miss Lean, in your testimony, you discuss how CTIA and its wireless partners embarking on the next generation of call identification solutions, namely branded calling. What is brand what is banded calling and how will it help reduce scam and scam calls? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:18:01Um CTA is um building um a new the next generation of branded calling by bringing together um the wireless ecosystem players um to give the consumer more information about who is calling and why. Um and branded calling as the name suggests means that the logo of the caller comes through. Um this framework provides um verified identity of the caller and builds upon the stir shaken framework to make um that information that comes through to the caller even clearer and better.
▶ 1:18:28So, by doing so, we help empower the consumer to make better choices about do you want to answer the call or not. Um, and we think that'll be a really helpful tool in continuing to um protect consumers from scam calls. Good. Thank all of you. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you. Um, I now recognize the ranking member Clark. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a request for unanimous consent.
▶ 1:18:51Representative Sorenson sent a letter to the chair and myself about the importance of taking action and his bipartisan quiet on and his bipartisan quiet act which addresses some of the issues raised here today. I ask for unanimous consent for his letter to be entered into the record. We received it the letter and seeing no objection. Accepted. Thank you. Thank you. Next up, the gentleman from the great state of Ohio, Mr. Roelly for 5 minutes. Thank you, chairman.
▶ 1:19:21Uh, the question will be directed at Miss Lean. Um, this is a bipartisan issue. Uh, and I think the most engaging, sensitive, uh, constituents what we have, I would say over 60. Um, when I was young, I used to listen a lot of talk radio in the 80s and the 90s and it was a subject then and it's just a subject as much right now today. Uh, they want to enjoy their peace and their tranquility and these robocalls just keep ruining it.
▶ 1:19:48So, uh, what percentage of illegal robocalls and spam text messages originate abroad and where do they primarily originate from? What part of the world? Thank you for the question. Um, it's a mix that um of robocalls and robotics that come from both the US. Miss Lean, your mic, please. Sorry. Sorry. Um, microphone. Um, it's a mix. It comes from um bad actors that are both located in the US and outside the US.
▶ 1:20:16Um and we um take seriously um our work to protect consumers from um illegal roboc calls and robbo attacks that originate abroad. Um you know it continues to evolve but Southeast Asia is one area um including India and the call centers there that u Mr. Burku mentioned earlier continues to be a source of uh legal unwanted robocalls and robo attacks.
▶ 1:20:36So we support efforts like those at the FCC where they have memorandums of understanding um with international partners with states to um collaborate on enforcement against the bad actors um located outside the US. Out of curiosity, do you think that America has migrated into an evolution where we've gotten better than we have in the early 90s or not really? We've definitely gotten a lot better than um the early 90s and especially over the last 10 years.
▶ 1:21:03Um on the robocall front, um we've had um a lot of attention to this issue from this committee through the traced act um from the FCC and other agencies giving us more tools, more authority to go after bad actors in this space. Um and there's been a lot of innovation in the texting space as well over the years to make our um onboarding, our filtering, our blocking and consumer reporting tools even better and we continue to enhance those every day. Thank you so much. Uh and then I have a question for Mr. Barq.
▶ 1:21:29Uh to fight against roos and spam texts, the FCC has formed international alliances and partnerships with countries like uh Australia, Brazil, Canada, the EU, Romania, Singapore, just to name a few. How should we move forward with helping the FCC handle enforcement with countries that are bad players like in uh Laos and in Cambodia who seem not wanting to get involved in the government? How can we get more involved involved with these countries that are allowing these illegal procedures to happen? Yeah, that's a great question.
▶ 1:21:58And um what is your mic on? Oh, sorry. That that's a great question. Um so I I think one of the things we'd love to see is that's why we do need a national strategy because the same people attacking us here are also attacking consumers in Canada and UK and Thailand. I think as we go around the world, there's more of a coalition of the willing to go after the criminal actors here.
▶ 1:22:20And so, you know, the FCC's has those with other countries, but we also need it coming from the criminal law enforcement authorities at that level and working together to to take down some of these uh entities and and organized crime really is what what we're going after with those. Do you think it's obtainable? I think it's obtainable. I think we've seen um some other countries take very aggressive actions. For for example, Myanmar is now building out there's reporting about these fraud centers in Myanmar.
▶ 1:22:48um the Thai government shut off the power. So they are going to generators but like I think there is room to continue to build on those and build those collaborations because again those same entities are attacking us all over the world. Outstanding. Thank you so much. And with that I yield my time back to the chair. Thank you. Uh next up is the gentleman from Texas for five minutes. Mr. Weber. Thank you Mr. Chairman Le. I'm coming to you and I had to be at another another hearing for a long time. I apologize if this is redundant.
▶ 1:23:15In many cases, robocalls are so believable that millions of Americans fall prey to the various scams every year. However, the recent rise in root text, as we call them, add a new layer of complexity. What makes combating spam and scam texts, why is that more difficult than calls? Thank you for the question. Um, CTA and our members throughout the messaging ecosystem take seriously our goal to protect consumers from illegal and unwanted roots.
▶ 1:23:42Um, voice and text are different technologies and they present different um, ways that bad actors target consumers. So, we've got different problems with different solutions. So, um, it's just a different ecosystem where we still bring um, blocking tools to bear in the texting space. For example, we blocked over 55 billion scam texts just last year. But that's just one piece of Can I give you my cell phone and have you block some more? Happy to help. Yes. Uh, and we continue to up those up up those efforts and bring new tools to bear.
▶ 1:24:11And in messaging, we've got um tools throughout the message flow, including upfront vetting and verification services that help identify whether legitimate businesses are who they say they are and helps deter bad actors from getting on the platform in the first place. We've got sophisticated algorithms, machine learning, AI, and fraud teams that look at um ways to protect consumers from unwanted and illegal text messages in the middle.
▶ 1:24:32And then we've got consumer reporting on the back end so that you can delete and report junk or you can forward your spam text to 7726 and the wireless industry takes those in to use to enhance our protection tools um so that we're taking in that consumer feedback to make those tools even stronger. Do you know this is a little bit this question maybe a little bit to the left. Do you know or how are y'all able to determine how many texts a company sends out at any given time? Can you think they send out a million 10 million? Can you can you verif identify that?
▶ 1:25:02Know that so companies use a variety of different platforms to send out their communications. Um so to us um that's not something that we look at. What we look at is trying to make sure that we're looking for suspicious patterns um indicators of spam or other illegal things um to target those to protect consumers from those. Otherwise, you know, it's really a balance to protect consumers while also making sure that legitimate business communications go through. Um, so like I said, we blocked 55 billion last year, but we also let um, you know, supported two trillion texts to go through.
▶ 1:25:31So it it's always a balance. Well, I think a trillion of those came to my cell phone. Uh, Mr. Brookie, I'm going to come to you. Um, as you're probably aware, there are varying levels of jurisdiction oversight when dealing with either foreign or domestic entities. Now, I missed the first half of his question, so if this is redundant, did he ask you about this? Uh, he might he may have, but I happy. Well, what are some of the unique challenges regulators and law enforcement face when dealing with foreign originating robocalls? Is that what y'all just went through?
▶ 1:26:00Uh, we we went through an aspect of that, but I'm I'm happy to talk about we've we've traced in our trace backs, we've traced calls and how they b vary from domestic ones. Yeah. So I think in our experience both on what we've seen through our trace backs but also um some public reporting I think what we see is that uh illegal telemarketing often that's homegrown and there's entities uh John Spiller Miss Legan mentioned earlier that might be more local but we do see a lot of the fraud comes from abroad especially the scaled fraud um
▶ 1:26:30so in terms of uh other countries I think those those same actors are attacking everyone around the world I think there's a lot of work to be done collaboratively with other countries. We've traced those. We do trace those. We find those entities. We sometimes see entities log into our portal saying they're a US company but log in from from abroad. So, I think we we're building that data set and it can arm criminal law enforcement to go after. Okay.
▶ 1:26:53Very quickly, our first responders, medical professionals, and other critical service writers often deal with individuals who are at their most vulnerable, making them a prime target for potential scams and attacks. So, the question is going to be, but I've got one to ask real quick. How do we address spoofing related to hospitals, police, government agencies, and other public service enemies? And I want to hone in on this as a question for the two of y'all. We'll go back to you, Miss Lean. How about have y'all ever encountered what's known as Yes.
▶ 1:27:22And how how often or would you put a percentage on there and what do you do about it? So, um, we take swatting very seriously. um you know that's where someone calls in a fake emergency and has um you know a police team go to your house. Um that's something where um we're not really seeing that as much on wireless 911 calls as much as it's on other networks.
▶ 1:27:44Um but um regardless the same tools that protect consumers from illegal and unwanted robocalls like um call authentication like stir shaken, call filtering, call blocking, and then tracing back calls after they've gone through to find the bad actor responsible are all things that we encourage um to address swatting as well as partnerships with law enforcement to go after that criminal activity as well. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield Thank you.
▶ 1:28:09Seeing no other members here um wishing to ask questions, I would like to thank our witnesses again for being here today. Uh without objection, uh that will be the order. Pursuant to committee rules, I remind members that they have 10 business days to submit additional questions for the record and I ask that the witnesses submit their response within 10 business days upon receipt of the questions.
▶ 1:28:32Without objection, the subcommittee is Yes, you did.