▶ 0:12:37Subcommittee will come to order. Good afternoon, everyone. How's everybody today? Very colorful. I enjoy the the yellow and the blues. Livesens the place up a little bit. We are here to discuss 12 bills that would benefit veterans and their survivors. These bills would ensure that veterans, their caregivers, and their survivors all receive fast, accurate, and fair decisions on their claims for VA benefits.
▶ 0:13:03Build on the Veterans Appeals Improvement and Modernization Act of 2017 by further streamlining and modernizing the VA appeals process. Provide employees from across VA the technology, training, and resources they need to efficiently process and decide VA claims and appeals. Ensure that rural veterans can receive disability compensation exams where they are.
▶ 0:13:23expand survivors benefits and ensure that fallen service members and veterans are properly commemorated and require VA to obtain and track necessary information concerning disabled veterans who have died by suicide. I am proud to have one of my bills on the on the on today's agenda. HR 3983, the Veterans Claims Quality Improvement Act of 2025 would ensure that veterans and their families receive accurate and fair decisions on their claims and appeals for VA benefits. The VA Board of Veterans Appeals has reported to Congress quality rates of roughly 95%.
▶ 0:13:54However, the subcommittee subcommittee has learned that these ratings are quite possibly flawed. We have heard that the way the board calculates quality quality does not fully account for the legal errors identified by the US Court of Veterans Appeals. In fact, the court reported in 2024 that 83% of board appeals were returned to the board because of legal errors. Many of these mistakes the board continues to make over and over again.
▶ 0:14:18And for too long, the board has has been passing the buck to the court, leaving the veterans waiting longer for a decision on their claims. This bill would change that and would require the board to carry out a robust training and tracking program using the proper data measurements so board judges and attorneys can learn from their mistakes. When the Veterans Benefit Administration at VA denies a benefits claim, that veteran has the option to appeal to the board. We have heard that the board often sends veterans cases back to the VBA instead of deciding the claim.
▶ 0:14:48In fact, the board reported it sent back nearly 50% of all the appeals it received in 2024. This unnecessary this this is unnecessary and remains in our and remains a waste of time and resources. They can add this can add months or even years to the wait times for a veteran to receive a final decision on their claim. Again, this is unacceptable. It's the responsibility of the board judges to ensure that all remands are correct, fair, and timely.
▶ 0:15:14Under the current law, performance reviews on board judges are only required every three years. This bill would change that, requiring board judges to undergo annual performances, annual performance reviews. This bill would also hold VBA claims processors accountable for avoidable deferrals of veterans claims. It would ensure that when a VBA claims processor mistakenly requests additional evidence for a veteran's claims, all claims processors who may have made the same mistake on that case are notified, not just the last one to work on the claim itself.
▶ 0:15:43It provides an opportunity for the claims processors to correctly address claims going forward and do and become better at their jobs. And the VA has a hard job nonetheless, but veterans deserve a claims and appeals process that puts them first. This bill helps make sure that we have an adaptable VA that learns from its mistakes to better serve our veterans.
▶ 0:16:04Chairman Bost, chairman of the VA committee, and I have both gone through the disability claims process ourselves, and it is a top priority for us to ensure that the process works for every veteran, caregiver, and survivor. I look forward to working with Chairman Boss, Ranking Member McGarvey, and other members of this subcommittee on this important proposal today. I look forward to hearing from witnesses who have joined us today and how we can approve these bills. I now yield to the ranking member for his opening remarks. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for being here today.
▶ 0:16:33We got a packed agenda with votes coming up soon. So, I want to I want to be brief. First of all, Mr. Chairman, thank you for your willingness to continue to to work on this committee in a mission focused manner, a bipartisan way that looks out and cares for our veterans. We've got a lot of good bipartisan bills here today. uh and you've always been willing to to work through some of the issues we may encounter in creating not just well-intentioned but also well functioning legislation as we move forward.
▶ 0:16:59I'm happy to see Miss Brownley's bill, the Veterans Law Judge Experience Act of 2025 on the agenda today. Uh this is a great bill dubtales with one of the efforts I've worked on uh with the Board of Veterans Appeals Attorney Retention and Backlog Reduction Act because it further emphasizes the need to hire and retain the best and most qualified attorneys and judges on the board. This helps our veterans. This helps our veterans who are already having trouble getting through the system.
▶ 0:17:24Uh, and I look forward to hearing more about legislation that seeks to find ways to make the Board of Veterans Appeals and the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims work more efficiently for our veterans, for their families, for their caregivers, for their survivors. Again, this is about how do we help our veterans. That said, there are quite a few concerns with some of the agenda items related to appeals that I hope my colleagues in the majority will work with us to address prior to moving these bills further through the process. Mr. Mr. Chairman, one of the bills we'll discuss today, the Caring for Survivors Act of 2025.
▶ 0:17:54It's a long overdue act to improve compensation for survivors uh for the survivors community and I strongly support it. The rate of dependency and indemnity compensation for surviving spouses and dependents was set in 1993. Just to date myself here, that's when I was in the seventh grade. Yeah. So, I think that we can do a little better in updating what is due to our veterans, their spouses, their families.
▶ 0:18:23Uh they put on the uniform to sacrifice everything for us. We've got to do right by them. Uh needless to say, the world's a little different today than it was in And despite what decisions were made back then, we know today that right now that survivors of our nation's brave men and women deserve more than we are giving them. Let's do that. It's long overdue co to adjust this compensation for people who have already paid dearly for this country.
▶ 0:18:48Uh it's time to stop making them stretch their dollars as they continue to sacrifice and stretch themselves to their emotional limits. And while I acknowledge that every expansion of benefits does come with a cost on it, there is a difference between spending and investment.
▶ 0:19:06And we have to continue to invest in the people who are willing to put on a uniform so that we have people who are willing to put on that uniform that they know that the promise that we make to them in exchange for their service will continue to be honored after they take the uniform off. So again, I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing. I thank the experts and advocates for being here today, and I look forward to coming up with practable practical, workable solutions for those we hold most dear here in this commission. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:19:35McGarvey, Chairman Boss, sir, you're now recognized for your opening statement. Thank you, Chairman, and I want to thank you and the ranking member and for holding this hearing today, and I'm proud to have introduced two bills on the agenda today. Uh, one of my top priorities is continuing to streamline the VA's appeal process. That's why we must continue to build on what was accomplished through the my bill, the Veterans Appeals Improvement and Modernization Act of 2017.
▶ 0:20:01My new bill, HR 3835, the Veterans Appeals Efficiency Act, would provide tried and trueue legal tools to the VA Board of Veterans Appeals and the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims to effectively effectively decline decide effectively decide veterans claims that are on appeal.
▶ 0:20:23Even with the massive investment Congress has made in the board, some veterans still are waiting up to five years for the board to decide their claim. The board still has 200,000 appeals pending and receives uh over 65,000 appeals a year. Currently, the board is only able to address roughly 120,000 appeals each year.
▶ 0:20:50At this rate, there's no way the board can eliminate its backlog. Simply giving millions more in tax dollars to the board to hire more staff is not the answer. We must authorize new tools and processes for the board to modernize whether they want to or not. The board already has the authority to decide appeals in whatever order it needs for the good good cause. and the veterans waiting years for decision is certainly a good cause to use this authority.
▶ 0:21:20For decades, other federal agencies have used legal tools um like aggregation to decide large number of similar claims at the same time. My bill would require uh the board aggregate veterans appeals according to the best legal practices. It's time for the board to catch up with the rest of the government and use to provide the veterans with faster decisions on their benefit claims.
▶ 0:21:50Even the court recognizes the importance of this tool and began aggre aggregation veterans appeals in a process known as class actions. My bill would impo improve the process for class actions by allowing the court to certify class actions that include veterans waiting for a board decision on their appeal, closing this legal loophole and ensuring timely discussions for the vet decisions for the veterans.
▶ 0:22:20My bill would also codify the court's authority to issue limited remains uh rem limited remands which allows the court to order the board to fix specific mistakes it made in a veterans appeal without requiring the board to issue a whole new decision. Each of these charges would make the VA uh each of these changes would make the VA appeals process work better and faster.
▶ 0:22:47We owe it to our taxpayers to come up with new efficient solutions instead of hiring more bureaucrats to continue a slow uh status quo. I would like to to thank ranking member Takano as well as representative Valadeo uh Bill Rockus Bacon James and Lawler for co-leading uh this important bill with me.
▶ 0:23:10My second bill, HR 3834, the Protecting Veterans Claim Option Act, would ensure that no appeal option becomes a trap for veterans. The AMA gave veterans more choices for how veterans can pursue VA benefit claim, but there are improvements to be made. My bill would close a loophole in the law pre that prevents some veterans from ever receiving a final board decision.
▶ 0:23:38Under current law, when the board decides that a veteran did not submit new and relevant evidence, the board refuses to make any decision on whether the veteran can receive VA benefits. The veteran's pursuit for VA benefits essentially disappears. My bill would ensure that the supplemental claim option is not a dead-end trap for veterans trying to navigate the VA appeals process.
▶ 0:24:06It would require the board to make a decision on the merits of the veterans claim regardless whether their supplemental claim contained new and relevant evidence. My bill would close another loophole in the the appeals process by allowing veterans to submit additional evidence after the court sends their case back to the board. During the appeals process, veterans often learn that the evidence that they need to need to support their claim and find it later after they they've filed.
▶ 0:24:36Veterans deserve fast and final decisions on their VA benefit claims, not a hamster wheel that forces them to wait months or even years just to get denied all over again. My bill would ensure that the process would work, not work for, not against the veterans and their families. I look forward to discussions of both these bills in future and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Miss Brownley, you're recogn Oh, um point of order.
▶ 0:25:05Uh I will be each member will be held to three minutes for their openings for their remarks. Um we've got a a long list. So, in accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent that representatives Brownley, Hayes, Barrett, and Mr. Kennedy be permitted to participate in today's subcommittee hearings. Without objection, so ordered. Representative Brownley, you're now recognized for three minutes to speak on your bill.
▶ 0:25:27Uh, thank you, Chairman Latrell and Ranking Member McGarvey for giving me this opportunity to speak on my bill HR 659, the Veterans Law Judge Experience Act, which would give hiring preference to veteran law judges that have three or more years of Veterans Law Experience. Throughout my tenure on the Veteran Affairs Committee, I have seen how veterans can end up waiting years before their claims for veteran benefits are decided.
▶ 0:25:55In some extreme cases, veterans have even died while waiting for their claims decision, while others spend their time unable to work and struggle to make ends meet. These circumstances make it clear that a prompter VA decision on a claim would change a veteran's life. VA's fiscal year 24 annual report, the Board of Veterans Appeals had 200,000 o over 200,000 pending appeals.
▶ 0:26:23The VA cannot afford to hire judges with lack of experience practicing veterans law. Veterans need judges who can hit the ground running and get them get them get them decisions in a timely manner. Not only would my bill decrease the backlog of veterans benefit claims, it would also improve the accuracy of cases and incentivize those with experience to stay in the field. I was disappointed to see VA is opposing my bill.
▶ 0:26:49It's per perplexing to me that VA would not want to hire experienced judges in the field of law they would actually that that they would be actually practicing. I've also heard from employees with the Veterans Board of Appeals who strongly disagree with the VA's official position. These employees informed me of how many of the Veterans Law judges VA hires have no experience in veterans law.
▶ 0:27:16These judges then must undergo lengthy training periods and handle a reduced case load while they become acclimated to the ins and outs of the law. This practice of hiring judges without veterans law experience clearly further delays veterans from receiving their well-earned benefits. Judges should be able to immediately start digging into the claims backlog to get veterans their v benefits as quickly as possible.
▶ 0:27:43Firmly committed to working with my colleagues on the committee to get my legislation signed into law and I thank you uh for the time and I yield Thank you, Miss Brownley. Mr. Barrett, sir, votes will be called in around a minute. Will you be returning or would you like to go? Uh, I I will be returning so I can uh yield to another member if you'd like um before votes if that would be better for you, Mr. Chair. Um would is there any other member that is going to will not be returning after votes because of other committee assignments?
▶ 0:28:12I'm happy to yield their three minutes currently. Mr. Kennedy, anybody? Mr. S. Okay, Mr. Bear, go ahead for your three minutes and then I'll after three minutes I'll gave us out so we can go vote and then we'll return. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. And uh thank you for uh allowing me to speak today. And to Ranking Member McGarvey, thank you as well for uh your willingness to take up this bill today. I appreciate the committee's consideration of my bill, HR 3833, the Veterans Caregiver Appeals Modernization Act.
▶ 0:28:40Um this legislation makes some critical and long overdue reforms and improvements to the Department of Veteran Affairs program of comprehensive assistance for family caregivers. This program is set up and designed to ensure that the nation's most injured veterans, those that suffer the most serious injuries who choose to receive their care at home rather than in a hospital are not subjecting their loved ones to significant financial hardships and burdens.
▶ 0:29:07Unfortunately, the VA uh which handle the the VHA, the Veterans Health Administration, which handles this program doesn't have a unified system available for applications. As a result, the records and documents that are scattered across multiple platforms and on various different systems, the VA staff that manage that see different things throughout the process and there's not a unified way of managing that and oftent times claims are delayed or lost or otherwise um not actioned for quite some time.
▶ 0:29:38We're going to hear today from a caregiver about the personal effect that had on her and her family's life. uh it leads to delays, confusion, unjust denials, particularly during appeals, which can take years to resolve. This bill eliminates that bureaucratic roadblock that stands in the way between family caregivers and the VA. We're going to streamline and improve the VA's caregiver program application process uh for veterans and caregivers, so they'll finally be able to receive timely and accurate decisions.
▶ 0:30:07will also ensure that family members who put their careers on hold to care full-time for their loved ones receive the past due financial support they've earned. A glaring oversight is when a veteran uh dies while these u applications are pending are not able to receive any type of back allotted benefits. I'm excited to hear testimony today and I want to thank the witnesses for attending this hearing and Mr. Chairman again thank you so much for taking this bill up for consideration today and with that I'll yield back. Thank you Mr. Barrett. A vote has been called in the House.
▶ 0:30:37The subcommittee will stand in recess subject to the call of the chair. I expect to reconvene 10 minutes after the start of the last Ladies and gentlemen, we have to adjourn to the House floor to have votes. Um, I would like to promise you a timely return. However, comma period end of discussion. If you want to kick it down the road like that, we will wait for the House for the first vote usually goes a little long. I'd like to say we were going to be in and out in 15 minutes, but that would be me lying to you, so I won't do that. Uh it is 1:30.
▶ 0:31:07I think it would be comfortable if you were to uh come back in around 2:00. 20:05 might be a good time. Oh,
▶ 1:21:41Mr. Kennedy. Sir, you are now recognized for three minutes. Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman, ranking member McGarvey, members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak in support of my bill HR2721, the Honoring Our Heroes Act.
▶ 1:22:00This legislation is rooted in the lived experiences of military families from my district and across the country who only came to fully understand the depth of their loved ones service and sacrifice years or even decades after they had passed. Families who were told by the government that their loved ones were ineligible for the same final honors afforded to other veterans.
▶ 1:22:24Under current federal law, the Department of Veterans Affairs will only provide a headstone or marker for veterans who died on or after November 1st, 1990. But before 1990, veterans were allowed to receive a governmentissued headstone regardless of when they passed. This change was not enacted out of principle, but as a costsaving measure to get legislation passed. Our veterans should never have been reduced to a line item. Their courage was not conditional.
▶ 1:22:52Their service did not come with a time limit and neither did their grief of the loved ones that they left. I've worked closely with families impacted by this arbitrary policy. I've heard their stories, shared their frustrations, and felt their heartbreak. They are only seeking dignity and recognition for their loved ones honorable service.
▶ 1:23:17I've made every effort to help them navigate the VA's bureaucracy, requesting exemptions, filing appeals, only to be repeatedly met with denials and red tape. The Honoring Our Heroes Act seeks to change that. My bill will create a 2-year pilot program to allow families of veterans who passed before November 1st, 1990 to apply for a headstone or burial marker through the VA.
▶ 1:23:41This simple, compassionate change would mean everything to the families who have already waited too long for their loved ones to be recognized with the honor that they've earned. My bill has earned strong support from some of our most trusted veteran service organizations, including the VFW, Gold Star Mothers, Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors, Vietnam Veterans of America, Disabled American Veterans, American Legion, including the Jesse Clipper Post430
▶ 1:24:11and Bennett Wells Post number 1780, the Military Order of the Purple Heart, including Buffalo Chapter 187, Janetta R. Kohl's Amvets Post 24, the Veterans Onetop Center of Western New York, and the African-American Veterans Arts and Culture Corporation. This legislation is about doing right by our history and ensuring that those who wore the uniform are afforded the honor that they've earned.
▶ 1:24:35The uniform these brave men and women wore didn't change with the date and their sacrifice didn't diminish over time. I respectfully urge the subcommittee to support HR 2721 and help ensure that no veteran's legacy is forgotten. Thank you for your consideration and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. In accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent that Representative Stefonic be permitted to participate in today's subcommittee hearing. Representative Stefonic, you're now recognized for three minutes.
▶ 1:25:03Thank you, Chairman Latrell, and thank you for convening today's hearing on my bill, the Earnest Pelts Acred Veterans Benefits Act. First, I want to thank this committee for your tireless work in advocating for our nation's veterans and ensuring their voices are heard in Congress. I also want to thank Representative Ro Kana for co-leading this bipartisan legislation.
▶ 1:25:22It's an honor to speak before the disability assistance and memorial affairs subcommittee to discuss my bill that corrects a moral wrong and seeks to improve the payment of pension benefits for those who selflessly served our great country. I proudly represent New York's 21st Congressional District, which is home to Fort Drum and the 10th Mountain Division, the Army's most deployed division since 911. Our district also has the largest veterans population in all of New York State.
▶ 1:25:50As members of Congress, it is our duty to recognize the sacrifices our military families make for our freedoms and develop solutions to ease the burdens placed on them. I look forward to continuing working with this committee to ensure our vets and their families are conf confronted with fewer hurdles when accessing their hard-earned benefits.
▶ 1:26:09My bill HR 3123, the Earnest Pelts Acred Veterans Benefits Act, improves the process by which our vets receive their acred pension benefits with one of the largest military communities in New York State. I've had the privilege of meeting with countless veterans and hearing firsthand the issues they face every day. Mr. Peltz was a US Navy vet who bravely served in World War II. During the final chapter of his life, he lived in an assisted facility in Queensberry, New York to be close to his son Charles.
▶ 1:26:38His health began to rapidly decline and the Warren County Veteran Service offices assisted Nest with his application for acred pension benefits for which he was approved. I personally spoke with senior VA officials. Yet, due to a processing error at the VA, the funds were not deposited until 7 days following his death. This erroneous delay prompted the VA to then claw back the earned funds and abandoned the Peltz family with unanticipated expenses while mourning the loss of Earnest.
▶ 1:27:07The Peltz family was penalized for the VA's mistakes. This is unacceptable. A family mourning the loss of a beloved veteran should not have to deal with red tape and bureaucratic mistakes. My bill ensures another family never has to go through something like this again. It eliminates the burden on the surviving family by ensuring that the veteran is entitled to receive their pre-approved pension benefits within the month the death occurs. When a service member serves, their family serves alongside them.
▶ 1:27:35Together, we have the opportunity to pass this common sense bipartisan bill to ensure our veterans and their families are never forgotten. Again, thank you for the opportunity to chairman Latrell today. I also want to particularly thank Ernest's son, Charles Peltz, who is a friend. I saw him last week. Thank you for your years of commitment to helping us pass this bill and I yield and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Fonic. Is it our practice we forgo a round of questioning for each member?
▶ 1:28:01Any questions may be submitted for the A vote has been called in the House. The subcommittee will stand in recess subject to the call of the chair. I expect to reconvene 10 minutes after the start of the vote.
▶ 1:47:50right, you guys call all your friends. Tell them we ready to rock and roll.
▶ 1:53:19Committee will come to order. Representative Hayes, you're now recognized for three minutes. Speak on your bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Veterans Affairs Committee for inviting me back to discuss my legislation, the Caring for Survivors Act. I had the opportunity to come before the committee last Congress to discuss the importance of the bill and I'm here again today to share the broad support the bill continues to gain and the need to sign it into law.
▶ 1:53:47While I do not sit on this subcommittee, I deeply care about our veterans and have worked tirelessly on behalf of the men and women and the families who have served our country since I joined Congress. My bill, the Caring for Survivors Act, is a continuation of that dedication to our veterans. This legislation would expand benefits for survivors of service members and veterans who have given their lives in service to the United States.
▶ 1:54:13When a service member dies in the line of duty or a veteran dies from service related injuries or illnesses, their surviving family members receive a monthly benefit known as dependency and indemnity compensation or DIC. Unfortunately, the DIC rate has been minimally adjusted since the VA established the benefit in 1993 and is lower than the rate of other federal survivor programs such as the federal employees retirement system.
▶ 1:54:40Specifically, DIC beneficiaries currently receive 43% of the rate given to a totally disabled veteran, which is significantly lower than the 55% of the insurance annuity that beneficiaries of federal civilian employees are eligible to receive. Additionally, current DIC rules drastically reduce the benefits for surviving members if the veteran was disabled for less than 10 years before passing away.
▶ 1:55:06This 10-year provision is more stringent than other federal survivor programs and disadvantages survivors who have put their lives on hold to care for a disabled veteran. The Caring for Survivors Act addresses these issues through two reforms to DIC benefits. First, the bill raises DIC to 55% of the rate given to a totally disabled veteran, increasing DIC to a level consistent with other federal survivor programs.
▶ 1:55:30As a result of this change, survivors will receive an approximate increase of more than $450 per month. Secondly, my bill reduces the 10-year disability rule to five years to broaden eligibility and expedite DIC benefits for veterans who have sacrificed to care for disabled Taken together, these two provisions modernize survivor benefits to ensure families receive the financial help they deserve.
▶ 1:55:56I appreciate the support of the VSO community for the legislation and I also want to recognize the surviving spousers and other family members nationwide and in this committee room for their ongoing advocacy to implement essential changes to survivor to survivor benefits. Finally, I want to thank my Republican colleague, Representative Fitzpatrick, for leading this legislation with me in the House, as well as ranking member Blumenthal and Senator Boseman for their support of the legislation in the Senate.
▶ 1:56:24Supporting veterans and surviving family members is an intentional choice that we can all make. I encourage my colleagues to support my bipartisan legislation and advance it through this subcommittee and vote for passage on the House floor. Thank you, and I yield back. Thank you, Miss Hayes.
▶ 1:56:43I now invite the second panel to the Miss Miss Julie, you're left. I mean, you're right. And M and Mr. Wishny, you're in the middle. My fault.
▶ 1:57:09I should have thrown that at You guys ready? All right.
▶ 1:57:37Welcome everyone and thank you to those who traveled here to share your experiences with today. Our second panel, Miss Julie, Miss Julie Julif Julif. Okay. Miss Julie Huliff, surviving spouse of Steven Huliff, Vietnam veteran. Professor Michael Wishnney, William O' Conor William O. Douglas, clinical professor of law and director of the Yale Law School Veterans Legal Service Clinic.
▶ 1:58:01And Miss Candace Wheeler, senior director government and legislative affairs for the tragedy assistance program for survivors. I ask all the witnesses to please stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. Thank you. And let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. Miss Huliff, you are now recognized for five minutes to present your testimony.
▶ 1:58:45Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Julie Guliff. I'm the surviving spouse of 100% disabled Vietnam veteran Steven Guliff. I come here today to speak in support of HR 3833, the Veterans Caregivers Appeals Modernization Act of 2025. To understand my strong support for this bill, I need to explain our story. Steve and I first met in 2004, and eventually we were married.
▶ 1:59:11I was still working three jobs to provide for my children and my mother, but was ready to reactivate my nursing license and continue my career. However, recognizing his growing needs, I put my life on hold to be a caregiver to Steve. With the titles of caregiver, nurse, and wife, my personal goals and career vanished. I had three jobs, but none of them came with the salary. With the increasing out-of- pocket medical expenses, our debt grew daily. Steve's health needs were clear. He couldn't drive. He couldn't go anywhere by himself, eat, or manage his own affairs.
▶ 1:59:41The PTSD was unmanageable and often frightening. In 2017, Steve issues compounded once again. On top of everything else, we were now fighting prostate cancer. In 2018, we moved and Steve was able to get a VA backed mortgage to buy a house. The downside was that by this time, I did not have the credit to be added to the mortgage. Due to my caregiving responsibilities, I hadn't worked since 2010, had significant debt, and definitely could not leave Steve to go to work.
▶ 2:00:10In late 2019, we learned the prostate cancer had progressed to stage 4 plus. Steve completed 55 consecutive days of radiation, which caused severe side effects. He was now bedridden, completely incontinent, unable to stand, walk, or attend to personal hygiene needs. Moreover, the radiation had furthered his dementia, requiring more oversight. And then COVID hit on October 1st, 2020. We were excited to learn that the PCAFC program opened to Vietnam veterans.
▶ 2:00:38I immediately applied to get some financial relief as I thought my husband was more than qualified. I wheeled him into the bathroom, had to take him into the shower with me or wash him on a chair or brush his teeth and managed all his medications. I had to hire someone to stay with him if I had to leave the house for any reason such as grocery shopping. Due to the pandemic, our home visit and interview was done virtually.
▶ 2:01:01It must be noted that these virtual evala evaluations were not necessarily in accurate represented representation of our reality as it's hard to see through a camera all of the medical equipment and the piles of pill bottles. My husband went to great lengths to not let people see him in his debilitated state. I spent endless hours on the phone writing letters, emailing, faxing, handd delivering, and correcting errors with the medical documentation.
▶ 2:01:32The first denial came in early 2021 with the reason given that veteran does not need six months of continuous care. That was inconceivable to both my husband and me. We had already been through years of continuous care, home health, physical, occupational therapy, home modifications, and countless pieces of medical equipment.
▶ 2:01:52We were heartened in March of 2022 when recognizing flaws in the system, the VA announced it was pausing dismissals from the program while the agency reviewed the eligibility criteria. Today, over three years later, caregivers are still waiting for the new regulations to address the problems. In August of 2022, we went bankrupt. Our finances had all been spent. We were buried in medical debt. We appealed the PCAFC decision multiple times.
▶ 2:02:21To be clear, if it had been approved, it wouldn't have solved all our problems, but it absolutely would have helped. Steve passed away on October 6 of 2022. Days after his death, I received a call from our mortgage holder asking me when I would be vacating our home. The company made it clear that they could not hold a mortgage for a deceased veteran. After years of sacrifice of career, credit, savings, and personal health, I was now widowed, homeless, alone, destitute, and heartbroken.
▶ 2:02:51Sadly, I'm not alone. Our PCAFC case was still open at the time of my husband's death, even after two years of fighting for a favorable decision. The overwhelming challenge of gathering and adding documents to the veterans medical record is impossible in its current form. I struggled for years to connect the dots between providers in both the VA and outside to make sure records were up-to-date, inclusive, and complete. But CNN records sometimes never made it to Steve's file. Excuse me.
▶ 2:03:20CCN records sometimes never made it to Steve's file for use in treatment plans and certainly not for PCAFC eligibility. In the wake of losing Steve, I was so frustrated with the denials for PCAFC, I made it my mission to follow through with our quest. In 2023, I filed our case before the Board of Veterans Appeals. Ultimately, I went before a judge in December of 2024. By the time I was done, he was in tears.
▶ 2:03:45Unfortunately, in March of 2025, almost five full years after we applied, we were denied again with the following conclusion of law. Due to the death of the veteran, the the appeal for eligibility of PCAFC benefits must be denied as a matter of law. The board also noted it was only able to consider evidence of record at the time of the agency of original judication decision.
▶ 2:04:11After all our challenges, COVID interfering with appropriate care, evaluations, flawed regulations, changing staff, and the lack of appropriate record sharing, we were ultimately denied because the VA simply outlasted my husband. The VA is an enormous system and will always have challenges due to its sheer size, much less added complications like COVID. The board process is a way of rectifying those problems.
▶ 2:04:38But if the process ends when the veteran dies, those left behind are left to deal with the consequences. Please pass HR 3833 so that others won't suffer the same fate as me. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Thank you for your testimony, Miss Ula. Professor Wishny, you are now recognized for five minutes for your to present your opening testimony. Mr. Chair, Mr.
▶ 2:05:07Ranking member, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My remarks reflect my own views and not those of Yale or of any of my clients. I speak today in support of the Veterans Appeals Efficiency Act, HR 3835, which contains practical reforms that would meaningfully improve the adjudication of VA claims and ensure that veterans have access to some of the tried andrue tools, as Chairman Bost put it, that civilians have when they seek
▶ 2:05:37review of government decisions in federal court. I'll focus on just two points. First, the act would codify and expand the jurisdiction of the veterans court to aggregate claims that raise the same question of law or fact. Other federal courts employ aggregation to manage mass adjudications in agency contexts.
▶ 2:05:59In the veterans court as well, aggregation can foster more consistent, equitable, and fair application of judicial rulings while also reducing the strategic mooding of cases by VA. There is no reason that veterans should be denied recourse to the same tools that civilians challenging government decisions um have with other federal The Veterans Court has some authority to aggregate claims and it has deployed this power judiciously.
▶ 2:06:30Already tens of thousands of veterans have benefited. Many veterans cannot afford to hire the legal counsel or medical or technical experts necessary to argue complex medical or legal questions. Aggregation allows all similarly affected veterans to join together and to benefit from one wellpresented case. Aggregation also advances judicial economy because it is more efficient to decide a question once than hundreds of times over and over.
▶ 2:07:00And aggregation promotes uniformity in decisions, avoiding the inconsistency of single judge opinions on the same question as we often have at the Veterans Court today. Now, when civilians challenge agency actions in federal court, they can gather together cases that have reached the court and that raise the same question but are still pending down at the agency level.
▶ 2:07:24However, in a case called SCORE, the federal circuit recently held that the Veterans Court unusually is limited and can aggregate only those claims that have reached the court or are within the 120day appeal window. Claims of other veterans raising the exact same issue that are languishing at the board or stuck before regional offices must be excluded.
▶ 2:07:48This is unusual in federal courts because few veterans with the same issue fall within that same 120day appeals window at the same time. The SCORE decision effectively ends aggregation for veterans at the court. Recognizing the harsh consequences of this decision, five judges of the federal circuit objected.
▶ 2:08:10Judge Dyke explained for the dissenters that aggregation quote promised to help ameliorate VA delays to some significant extent, enabling veterans in a single case to secure a ruling that would help resolve dozens, if not hundreds of similar claims. End quote. But the SCORE decision denies veterans the ability to quote compel correction of systemic error and to ensure that like veterans are treated alike. This bill fixes those problems.
▶ 2:08:41Now, the board's written testimony raises various criticisms which I do not think are wellounded and which I would be glad to address during questioning. Importantly, even when the Veterans Court decides a single common question, VA still makes the ultimate benefits determination for each veteran on an individual basis based on that veteran's facts and circumstances. Briefly, there are two amendments I hope the committee will consider to this provision.
▶ 2:09:10First, I agree with the court in its written statement that HR 3835 should not narrow the court's authority in writes. I don't believe this was the intent of the drafters and I've shared proposed amendments with staff to address this. Second, I hope the bill might avoid mention of opt- out procedures. The sensible structure of the bill is to incorporate the rules prescribed by the veterans court itself. The rules of that court do not explicitly address optouts.
▶ 2:09:39removing mention of optouts from the bill would continue to leave it to the court to adopt such procedures either generally or in a particular case. The second uh and final point I wanted to make about the bill is to emphasize that it would also codify the authority of the board to aggregate claims. So now moving from the court to the board. 70 other federal agencies use aggregation in mass adjudication settings but the board is an outlier.
▶ 2:10:07It has held repeatedly that it lacks authority ever to aggregate claims together and decide once instead of hundreds or thousands of times, even when the appeals involve the same question of law or fact. According to the Administrative Conference of the United States, a result of the board's failure to aggregate is that quote, "Agencies risk wasting resources in repetitive adjudication, reaching inconsistent outcomes for the same kinds of claims, and denying individuals access to the affordable representation
▶ 2:10:38that aggregation procedures promise." End quote. The bill would remedy that, too. Oddly, the board says it doesn't want this tool. that wishes to remain disempowered unlike 70 other agencies ever to aggregate claims. It cites concerns about the manner in which it itself might exercise this power if it had it. But the bill does not dictate these details. It provides the tool and leaves it to the board to properly administer it.
▶ 2:11:04There's no reason to deprive veterans of a tool that civilians may invoke before 70 other agencies. In conclusion, I urge the committee to approve HR 3835. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Miss Wheeler, you're now recognized for five minutes. Chairman Lutrell, Ranking Member McGarvey, and distinguished committee members. The Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors appreciates the opportunity to testify on behalf of more than 120,000 surviving families we are honored to serve.
▶ 2:11:35TAPS remains committed to strengthening dependency and indemnity compensation for surviving families. DIC has only been increased by COLA since 1993. TAPS is grateful to representatives Hayes and Fitzpatrick and 55 original co-sponsors for reintroducing the Caring for Survivors Act, which will raise DIC by 454 a month, providing parody with other federal survivor benefits and financial stability for
▶ 2:12:05surviving families. In the words of Amanda Pitzer, surviving spouse of Chief Petty Officer Larry Pitzer Jr., "Loing my husband changed every aspect of my life, emotionally, mentally, and financially." While DIC provides some support, the reality is that it simply isn't enough to keep surviving families financially secure. The gap between what is provided and what is actually needed forces many of us into impossible situations.
▶ 2:12:34Choosing between paying bills, securing our futures, or being present for our children. If the Caring for Survivors Act is passed, it would be lifechanging. Taps appreciates representatives Edwards and Morrison introducing the Justice for Americans Veterans and Survivors Act to ensure VA collects cause of death data for deceased veterans.
▶ 2:12:59While the VA currently supports 56,000 surviving spouses, VA does not know what percentage are suicide, illness, combat, or training accident losses. This data is critical to ensure VA and other organizations provide necessary care and programs for survivors as well as research into suicide prevention, toxic exposures, and illnesses that have led to the tragic deaths of many of our nation's veterans.
▶ 2:13:28The lack of data also negatively impacts CBO scoring of survivor legislation like the Love Lives On Act and Caring for Survivors Act, adding to the cost of these bills and making it difficult to find funding.
▶ 2:13:43We urge swift passage of this important TAP strongly supports the fallen service members religious heritage restoration act which ensures every American service member who fought and died for our country has their beliefs and heritage properly honored. Many veterans from earlier generations also may lie in unmarked graves.
▶ 2:14:07The Honoring Our Heroes Act, sponsored by Congressman Kennedy, seeks to correct this oversight by ensuring that every veteran, regardless of when they passed, is honored with the dignity and recognition they have earned. TAPS also appreciates the modernizing all veterans and survivors claims processing act which expands the use of automation tools across VA to improve efficiency, accuracy, and communication within the claims process.
▶ 2:14:36This legislation codifies the work being done by VA and ensures veterans and survivor claims advancements are protected in perpetuity. TAP strongly supports the Veterans Claims Quality Improvement Act to streamline the benefits claims process for our veterans and their families. We thank you, Chairman Lutrell, for your leadership on this important bill.
▶ 2:14:59Taps also appreciates Chairman Boss introducing the Veterans Appeals Efficiency Act to help streamline the VA claims and appeals process, making it more expedient, transparent, and easier to track for veterans and their TAPS also supports the Earnest Pelts Acred Veterans Benefits Act to ensure eligible survivors receive their veterans unpaid pension.
▶ 2:15:24Last year alone, nearly 9,000 newly berieved survivors connected to TAPS for care and services, the most in our 30-year history. 37% were grieving the death of a military loved one to illness and many were caregivers to their veterans before their passing.
▶ 2:15:43Which is why TAP strongly supports the Veterans Caregiver Appeals Modernization Act, which improves the VA's caregiver support program by making the application and appeals process more accessible and efficient and ensures much needed financial support for On behalf of our surviving families, Taps appreciates the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Wheeler.
▶ 2:16:10The written statement of our witnesses today will be will be entered into the hearing record. We'll now move to questioning. Mr. McGarvey, thank you, Mr. Chairman. We'll get right into it. Miss Wheeler, you addressed this a bit in your testimony, but I was hoping you could tell us more about why TAPS feels that the Congressional Budget Office estimates are too high for the Caring for Survivors Act. Is there any additional light you can shed on that?
▶ 2:16:41They were looking at the potential of Miss Wheeler, I'm sorry. Is your microphone on? Thank you. It is now. Yes. Thank you. Um, thank you for the question. So, when the Pacted Act was passed, the VA had initially predicted that there could be up to 382,000 survivors that might have benefits under the PAC Act.
▶ 2:17:02We have seen a record number of 37,000 apply for benefits, which still is wonderful news for surviving families, but it certainly is a big delta from what the original estimate might have been. What we have heard since then is that actually what has happened is that um they were looking at all of the amounts of survivors within their database that could have possibly had uh benefits due to the pact and it wasn't related to cause or manner of death.
▶ 2:17:33So one of the pieces of legislation we've all been talking about here today would actually fix that problem by helping VA to actually code by cause of death. But this impacts legislation like the Caring for Survivors Act because we believe the Congressional Budget Office is actually scoring it based on a much long larger number than what actually is. So, thank you for the question, sir. No, and thank you for that. I mean, I think it's important we know those numbers. We have to have a datadriven approach to this while we're doing our best to take care of our veterans.
▶ 2:18:03Um, I also want people to understand here that we're talking about a modest increase in the base rate for dependent care in this bill. It's less than $500 a month for a survivor. what does that additional money mean for survivors and dependents? It means paying their bills.
▶ 2:18:25It means having a little breathing room to be able to even attend to children that are grieving as well to take care of themselves to just breathe a bit easier. It would it would really go a long way for our families and is overdue. Um, Mrs. Gulov, I appreciate your testimony so much. I appreciate your service. Um, we know when when anyone in a family serves, the whole family serves, and we thank you for that. We thank you for your courage and coming here today. Could you tell us a little bit about what that additional money would mean for families.
▶ 2:18:59Turn your microphone on. Thank you very Thank you. Um, that amount of money would would make a big change, a huge change. In my case, I was left homeless in a very short time after my husband died with nothing, destitute and no income. So $500 was a big deal. That would have done a whole lot for me in particular and I'm sure for everyone else involved.
▶ 2:19:27My caregiving experience lasted so long that my life was virtually non-existent. It it was the caregiver experience. So, no income in savings, no no 401ks, no additional input into the household income other than my husband's disability check. And when that was gone, everything was removed with it.
▶ 2:19:53I'd also like to add that not only was I a nurse by education and had planned to do that as a career, I was also I went into the admin side and was a biller and coder. So working with the numbers and you know gathering all of the stuff that needed um was was something that I was very used to.
▶ 2:20:12But to answer your question, $500 a month would be a very big deal to someone like me and quite honestly it's even bigger deal if if you have others at home and so many families. Thank you. While we're on the subject of DIC, um is there we're talking about these things. There are quite a few bills here that address uh appeals both at the BVA and the CABC level.
▶ 2:20:37Professor Wishnney, rather than ask about any specific one of them in the time we have remaining, I'm more interested in how they'd operate in concert with one another. If you've analyzed these as a total package, how do you think they'd work from an ecosystemwide perspective? Um thank you for the question. I think they each bill makes important uh adjustments and contributions to hopefully make the overall system work better. Um my own review of the bills for today suggests that they are not in conflict and so it's not to do one bill or the other.
▶ 2:21:07They come at the problem they come at different parts of the problem. Uh this no one bill today is the AMA that's trying to do an entire makeover. But each bill contributes I think meaningfully to a more efficient system for families, for veterans. uh for all of us. Thank you so much. I'm out of time. I appreciate all of your testimony, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. McGarvey. Mr. Stealth, sir, recognized for five minutes. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:21:31Um I've got uh I've got some questions that are basically explanatory or clarification. Professor Wi, Professor Wishny. Um, on HR 3835, the Appeals Efficiency Act, uh, we've co you covered some of this in your testimony, so this will be covering it hopefully in a little more detail just so that we understand.
▶ 2:21:55Uh, would 3835 give veterans the ability to opt out of case as part of a class action by either the court or the board? So, um, the bill right now speaks of opt outs at the court. The court's own rules currently do not address optouts. That's managed on a case-bycase basis. And at the court, um, the classes that they have certified so far.
▶ 2:22:24There has not been a request to opt out. There has not been opt out provisions. And this is because these are the equivalent of injunctive cases. And in federal court under the rules operable there, opt outs are rare in injunctive cases. The board um I think that the legislation I hope will leave to the board the responsibility to decide how to operationalize the power um and it will not micromanage that.
▶ 2:22:52And if the board were to determine a set of optout rules uh function best, I think that's the best first step. Let the board figure out in application just as 70 other agencies have done how to manage that question. Okay. Can you tell us why a veteran might not want to be part of a class action?
▶ 2:23:12So, um I don't think there are a lot of good reasons honestly, but um some veterans might prefer for their individual case to continue moving through the agency process at the RORO or the board rather than wait for a decision that's classwide. even though that decision might benefit them and if they go through by themselves, they run the risk of a single judge saying, "No, I don't see it that way." Nevertheless, they might prefer to have that um option and that swifter decision.
▶ 2:23:42And so, I could see why they might say, "I don't want my claim to wait at all. Let's go forward." Then, can you talk to us to us about the advantages of being in a class action? um some of the things that I mentioned um many veterans of course don't have access to medical or scientific experts um and maybe I'll just give a quick example in the score case itself which I mentioned that case arose from a group of about 1,400 airmen who
▶ 2:24:12responded to a plutonium leak in 1966 when we accidentally nuked a village in Spain the bombs didn't detonate we dropped bombs by mistake and 1400 airmen went out to clean up the plutonium that spilled out of two bombs. Eventually, the um the Air Force developed a formula to calculate how much radiation each airman was exposed to.
▶ 2:24:35And that same formula was applied to all of those airmen who then later applied to the VA when they experienced radiation related diseases. Well, it turns out that that formula is deeply flawed. Even the VA's own review concluded it was not a good formula. not an adequate formula, but they stuck to it. When Mr.
▶ 2:24:57Score came forward, he was able to marshall nuclear physicists who could analyze that formula, explain its shortcomings, propose a more accurate formula that would better calculate the radiation for each veteran, and then apply that one formula to all veterans. So the benefit to a veteran, not every veteran can uh identify and persuade a nuclear physicist to take up their case and testify as happened in that case as an expert.
▶ 2:25:26In that example, all 1400 of those airmen benefited from the expertise of the Princeton nuclear physicist and the court credited it as a result. Okay, I have less than a minute. I've got one more question for you. Thank you for that. Um, you covered the RITs, but uh, would you just explain a little bit more about including RITs as a covered proceeding for purposes of supplemental jurisdiction, how that could result in unintended limitations if it does?
▶ 2:25:56Could you just quickly go over that? Sure. Uh, briefly. Um so um currently the court has authority under the all ritz act uh an ancient common law power codified by the first congress in the first judiciary act of 1789 um to use rits in aid of jurisdiction in a narrow set of circumstances most cases of the court well over 90% are appeals not rits but the court has done some aggregation in
▶ 2:26:26the writ context and that's working fine I Um the the federal circuit in SCORE was addressed to appeals and the court there said that the veterans court cannot aggregate appeals because it lacks supplemental jurisdiction. That's not an issue for all Ritza for Ritz cases. It's only an issue for appeals. The the federal circuit said you lack supplemental jurisdiction therefore you cannot aggregate claims.
▶ 2:26:52This bill would grant supplemental jurisdiction and as I suggested I think it it should limit itself to appeals granting supplemental jurisdiction to appeals and leave RITs alone. They're working fine. There isn't a problem there. Thank you for that clarification. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. S. Miss Huliff, you currently reside in Florida still. Excuse me. Are you still living in Florida? No, I'm currently living in Texas.
▶ 2:27:23Well, that's a great Welcome. Thank you. We're happy to have you. Thank you. I totally lost my train of thought. I'm I had to bring it back up a little bit. If you don't mind, I during this this period with your husband, you you were currently residing in Florida, correct? That's correct.
▶ 2:27:50Were you engaging with one specific VA and one specific VA only or were you actually did you travel? I'd like to if there's anything I'd like to do is pick apart the VA. Okay. Because there's a large problem set, but I need to know how we can kind of dive into this because your story is and I've read your testimony twice. Um, were you dealing with one specific VA?
▶ 2:28:12For the vast majority of the time we were in West Palm Beach and then in 2018 and bearing in mind he died in 2022 we moved further north to Valuchia County. So we were in within the Orlando system there.
▶ 2:28:30So, it was two, but 99% of his um when you made when you made the move, I'm just going to I correct me if I'm wrong on this, but everything did everything almost have to start over because you went to a different VA or was there a good information communication flow between the two? My husband did not want to start over because it's my understanding and has been my experience that when you move from one VA, each VA seems to be its own universe and he did not want to start from scratch.
▶ 2:29:00So he requested and I fulfilled that request. We drive over 200 miles each way from Daytona Beach to West Palm Beach to Oh, so you stayed at the same VA? We did. Yes. Okay. And I'm do do we have the list of individuals that you talked to namewise specifically? I'd like to unpack this in a way to to kind of at almost to the granular level to see why this happened. Okay.
▶ 2:29:25Um and it was over a five-year period after you met with one of the appeals court. Did you you met with one of the board members? you met with a judge that you said and that was that was just in December of 2024. Before that, all of our appeals process had been back and forth on paper, so to speak. And what was the judge's response to you?
▶ 2:29:52Because then what a few months later to a year later, you you got the results that said you've been declined. Yes. Can you tell me exactly what the the judge's engagement with you was? Uh when I got to the judge, the very first thing he asked me was, "How did you get to me?" Because he in his experience had never a survivor or someone get to his level. It was usually done through a a much different process. Again, I don't know much about that.
▶ 2:30:22Um but shortly in the in the hour before I met, I saw him. It was done virtually. Um, they I had to go to the Houston VA who told me that my husband did not exist. No such record of him. He doesn't exist at all. No, sorry, you're in the wrong place. I said, "Well, maybe since I have all the powers of attorney, maybe you can check my name because I was a point of contact for the VA for many, many years." Nope. You don't exist either. There was uh a Houston VA, I'm assuming you're talking about Debbie.
▶ 2:30:52Yes. Okay. They refused to let me in. And I said, "Well, I have a hearing with a judge and you are going to let me in because when the screen opens, I expect to be there." There was quite a bit of back and forth and um I had to be escorted by the Houston police to get me in in front of that judge. And when the judge did see me, he wanted to know where my representation was. And I had to tell him, "I don't have any.
▶ 2:31:19I built this case by myself." and he ran through all the list of the potentials who this group that group I'm refused deny. How did we end up in Houston after leaving West Palm Beach in Orlando? Um shortly after my husband died, our mortgage holder, it was a VA mortgage called and asked when I would be vacating my home because my name was not on the mortgage. I may have been on the deed, but I was not on the mortgage.
▶ 2:31:46And since I had not had a working job with an income since 2010 because I was caring for my husband, I wasn't qualified for a mortgage or credit of any kind. So the mortgage holder asked me when I would be vacating or if I would be buying my house back from them. So when you when you got to Houston, right, which again, no, it's very challenging for VA facilities to communicate with each other. That's no that's no secret. Very difficult.
▶ 2:32:16West Palm Beach would not communicate with Houston Debbie that says, "Hey, yes, we've absolutely know who this person is." Correct. They did do that or they did not. They did not. Did you ask them to do that? Oh, yes. Unfortunately, I had to get um a little bit strong with the the people in Houston. Oh, did you get did you get in trouble in the VA?
▶ 2:32:45on more than one occasion, I'm afraid. uh, no is not always the correct answer. Um, but on this particular and I and I understand what you're saying, but it probably didn't come out right, but but I I I had uh luggage with all of the paperwork and documentation that I was supposed to be there on that day.
▶ 2:33:07So after a few uh lengthy conversation with more than a few people including the Houston Police Department, they granted me access to the room where the screen was where the judge was going to hear my case. Okay. The judge's responses to you was this sounds absolute. You're you're good to go. But then he was Yeah. He was he was shocked that I had no representation. He was uh wondering how this could even happen. after we he asked me my questions.
▶ 2:33:37I spoke to him at length. Um there was more than a few Kleenex passed around the room on on on that day. But he asked for hundreds of pages of documents. I said, "I will give you everything you want. All of the documents, all of the evidence, everything on this case. It's about 180 pages, the short version." He asked for all of it. I mailed it. I emailed it. I digitized it and I got it to him.
▶ 2:34:06But I, as I told the judge, I said, "When someone gets a stack that big on their on their desk, most of the time it's unmanageable to look through all of that stuff." He assured me that he would look at it and that others would look at it.
▶ 2:34:23It is my understanding that they did that did not happen and he was not allowed to read my evidence that he asked for based on the rule of law that um no once my husband was gone so was the case. Mr. Edwards.
▶ 2:34:53In accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent that Representative Edwards be permitted to participate in today's subcommittee hearing. Mr. Edwards, you're recognized for five minutes, sir. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and committee members. uh ranking member and uh all all of you.
▶ 2:35:10I appreciate being waved on and allowed to speak today as the proud representative of North Carolina's 11th district, a district home to over 50,000 veterans, including many who served in the 82nd Airborne and across the armed services at Fort Bragg. I introduced this bill because we're failing our nation's veterans in one of the most critical ways imaginable.
▶ 2:35:36We're not fully accounting for the true cost of the mental health crisis in their ranks. For years, we've heard the number 22 veteran suicides per day, but emerging data from groups like America's Warriors Partnership suggests that number may be closer to 40 or nearly 15,000 veterans every year. That's simply a tragedy and it's a failure of policy, data, and accountability.
▶ 2:36:05Our veterans deserve better. We can't begin to address the veterans mental health crisis without first having accurate data that helps us fully understand the scope, severity, and the nuances of the crisis. My bill, the Justice for Americans, Veterans, and Survivors Act, will finally ensure that we collect and report accurate, comprehensive information about how and why our veterans are dying.
▶ 2:36:34This includes tracking suicides, more precisely identifying when overdose or self harm is involved and clarifying the role of service connected injuries and mental health conditions, a tragedy that uh many spouses have to endure after their uh their service members death.
▶ 2:36:59Currently, the Department of Veterans Affairs relies heavily on county level reporting, which misses nearly one in five veterans. Families are left without closure. Survivors are often denied the benefits and support that they deserve. And policymakers, us, are left trying to fight the crisis blindfolded. This bill changes that. It brings transparency.
▶ 2:37:26It brings accuracy and most importantly, it brings justice to the men and women who served and to the families that they leave behind. In Western North Carolina, we feel this crisis personally. My team and I have sat with families who've lost a loved one to suicide. We've met with veterans who are still fighting daily battles that we cannot see.
▶ 2:37:50And this bill is about making sure that their stories are counted, their struggles are acknowledged, and their families are supported. I'm grateful for the strong bipartisan and community support that this bill has received from organizations like the Veterans of Foreign Wars, Military Officers Association of America, Paralyzed Veterans of America, and Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors.
▶ 2:38:16And for members on both sides of the aisle who agree that this crisis demands action. Passing this legislation is not a courtesy to our veterans. It's a commitment. A commitment to the truth, to accountable, and to the sacred promise that we make to all who serve that when you come home, we'll continue to stand by you. This legislative hearing is just the first step towards fulfilling that commitment.
▶ 2:38:44Thank you again for the opportunity to speak and I urge this subcommittee to move swiftly in advancing this legislation. Mr. Chair, I yield. Thank you, Mr. Edwards. Thank you for the testimony from the panel. You're now excused. And will the third panel please be seated?
▶ 2:40:23Dr. Richardson, are you ready? You look ready. You like stay ready so you don't have to get ready. Okay, good. All right. Is everyone Is everyone ready? Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today from the Department of Veterans Affairs and the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. The lead witness for VA is Mr. Evan Dykert, acting acting deputy vice chairman and veteran law judge at the board of veterans appeals. Mr. Dyker is accompanied by Mr.
▶ 2:40:50Kevin Fel, executive director of pensions and fiduciary services at the Veterans Benefits Administration. Mr. James Smith, I deputy executive director of policy and procedures for compensation services. And Dr. Do you prefer Colonel? Okay. Dr. Colonel Colonel Colleen Richardson, executive director for the caregiver support program at the Veterans Health Administrator. I have to ask military guys. Well, you're sitting in the wrong spot. Let's do one of these.
▶ 2:41:23What? Your says colonel in front of you. Is that wrong? I said colonel. Everybody leave me alone or I'll freak out. We got a call in and then someone who's Oh, all right. Sorry. My fault. Dr. Colleen Richardson. My fault. Yes, Exe. I know how to fix this problem. Dr. Colleen Richardson, executive director for the Caregivers Support Program at the Veterans Health Administration. Welcome.
▶ 2:41:50And joining us from the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims is Colonel Tiffany Wagner, clerk of the court for the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. right. Got it. All witnesses, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, help you guide. Thank you. And let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. Mr. Dyker, you are now recognized for five minutes, sir, to present the department's testimony.
▶ 2:42:19Good afternoon, Chairman Latrell, Ranking Member McGarvey, and members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs to discuss how VA strives to achieve final resolution of veterans claims and appeals to ensure access to VA healthcare and benefit benefits and to provide VA cemetery or burial benefits as well. Accompanying me today are Mr. James Smith, deputy director of policy and procedures for compensation service, Mr.
▶ 2:42:49Kevin Fel, executive director of pension and fiduciary service, both in the Veterans Benefits Administration, and Dr. Colleen Richardson, executive director of the Caregivers Support Program, Veterans Health Administration. While VA's views on all the bills are detailed in my written testimony, including areas of concern and support, I would like to highlight some of the bills in my opening remarks.
▶ 2:43:10First, VA supports the intent of the Justice for America's Veterans and Survivors Act, subject to the availability of appropriations, but cites concerns with the level of data tracking required by the bill. While VA recognizes the tragedy of veteran suicides and aims to identify any links to service connected disabilities, VA already reports comprehensive mortality data annually, including leading causes of death and receipt of care and benefits.
▶ 2:43:37VA is concerned about the feasibility of tracking new data elements mandated by the bill, especially those not currently collected by our systems. For instance, determining if a suicide is directly related to a service connected disability like PTSD can be challenging without specific death certificate death certificate codes. Additionally, if the veteran did not die in a VA facility or receive VA benefits, VA may not have information necessary to cause regarding that veteran's cause or manner of death.
▶ 2:44:07We would appreciate discussing the bill further with the committee to clarify the intended outcomes and consider necessary amendments to ensure we can accurately report the required elements. VA does not support HR659, the Veterans Law Judge Experience Act. This bill would require the board chairman to prioritize candidates with at least three years of veteran of experience in laws administered by the secretary when recommending individuals for veterans law judge positions.
▶ 2:44:33The current selection process for veterans law judges is based on merit and fitness for the role akin to the standards for judges on the court of appeals for veterans claims. Prioritizing specific types of experience could undermine these merit-based principles. VA has appointed a verse group of highly qualified judges, many of whom had no prior VA experience, but brought significant military or judicial backgrounds. This diversity has helped VA achieve record numbers, record levels of appeals adjudication, offering the best service to veterans.
▶ 2:45:03VA believes it is crucial to maintain the flexibility to select judges based on a wide range of qualifications, ensuring the highest standards for serving our veterans. VA supports the Rural Veterans Improved Access to Benefits Act, subject to amendment and the availability of appropriations. We appreciate the committee's efforts to improve temporary lensure requirements for contract healthcare professionals performing VA disability examinations. VA recommends removing the sunset date on these lensure requirements.
▶ 2:45:33This would provide greater flexibility to engage a broader range of qualified medical professionals, especially in rural areas, resulting in shorter wait times and faster examination completions for veterans. In addition, VA recommends removing the reporting requirement to disagregate timeliness data by healthcare professionals. VA does not have access to the specific data from our vendor's proprietary systems and controlling factors outside our individual examiner's responsibilities may skew the data.
▶ 2:46:00It is important to note that VA may return examinations to be reworked for reasons other than error. Additionally, VA tracks timeliness from vendor acknowledgement of examination request to completion, not by individual examiner activity. Mr. Chairman, please understand that the concerns that we have raised in our written testimony today and that will be raised in our testimony that's oral is sincere.
▶ 2:46:23VA understands that the appeals process can be long and frustrating for many veterans, but I hope that the answers that we can provide to your questions will help explain why it takes so long to process an appeal or a claim and what VA is trying to do about it. Ultimately, processing these appeals takes time because each and every case represents a veteran with a unique set of facts and circumstances. VA shares Congress's goal of continuous improvement to both our program and our customer service to veterans, their families, caregivers, and survivors.
▶ 2:46:54We want to express our appreciation for your continued support, and we look forward to continued collaboration. Chairman Latrell, Ranking Member McGarvey, this concludes my statement. My colleagues and I will be happy to respond to your questions. Thank you, sir. Colonel Wagner, you're now recognized for five minutes to present the testimony of the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims. Chairman Lutrell, Ranking Member McCarthy, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am appearing on behalf of Chief Judge Michael P.
▶ 2:47:24Allen to offer the court's perspective on the proposed Veterans Appeals Efficiency Act of 2025, specifically section 2E, which proposes to expand the court's jurisdiction and define the court's limited remand authority. I had the opportunity to appear before this sub subcommittee regarding similar legislation in April 2024. As I noted then, the court cannot comment on the advisability or scope of proposed changes to our jurisdiction.
▶ 2:47:52Such matters are squarely within the purview of Congress. Likewise, the court does not offer advisory opinions or suggested language on legislation it may one day be asked to interpret. That said, we can offer general observation on the bill's language and possible implications.
▶ 2:48:11First, regarding supplemental jurisdiction, the proposed language in subsections of 38 USC section 7252 aims to broaden the court's class action authority and allow current claim processing between the court and the VA. While this may provide new pathways for veterans, we offer a general caution that some of the language as drafted is somewhat unclear.
▶ 2:48:33For example, broad references to terms like claim, notice of disagreement, or supplemental cla claim without specific citations or context make it difficult to determine the intended application. Additionally, the inclusion of Ritz under supplemental jurisdiction may raise legal complexities and could unintentionally limit the court's existing authority under the All Ritz Act.
▶ 2:48:58Furthermore, the proposal to toll the deadline for appeal filings introduces a new category of jurisdictional questions, which could increase the court's case load. Given that our court is already handling a record volume of appeals, such growth would likely require reassessment of both resources and procedures. Second, on the matter of limited remand authority, the bill proposes a statutory framework under 38 USC section 7252C, which appears intended to codify the court's authority.
▶ 2:49:28The court already possesses limited remand authority, and by defining in statute when and how limited remands may be issued, the legislation could inadvertently narrow the court's existing discretion rather than expand it. We raised these points not to oppose the bill, but to help ensure that any changes fully reflect Congress's intent and avoid unintended constraints on judicial flexibility.
▶ 2:49:52In closing, the court remains committed to delivering full, fair, independent, and timely judicial review to veterans, their families, and survivors. We appreciate your continued efforts to improve the appeals process, and thank you for including the court in these important discussions. I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Colonel. The written statement of the witnesses will be entered into the record. Mr. McGurvey, you're recognized for five minutes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here today and thank you for your testimony. Mr. Fre, I'm going to start with you.
▶ 2:50:22Uh, and with the VA's testimony on HR 3854, the modernizing all veterans and survivors claims processing act says that VBA, and I quote this, is working to identify solutions in the claims process where benefit adjustments can be made using technology without human intervention. "I'm not against technology.
▶ 2:50:45Technology has a wonderful place, but I think you can see that I have some pause on the VA moving toward true end toend automation. There are mistakes that are made with machines and of course some of our veterans have some problems navigating these systems already as we as we've heard from many of them, certainly I have in Louisville, Kentucky." Um, I think a lot of those beneficiaries, we're talking about our veterans, right? We're talking about the people who've served us. They want and need a human backs stop to any decision that is made.
▶ 2:51:15But more importantly, that quote makes me question whether the VA intends to replace the people who work for the VA, not just give them additional tools that are going to help our veterans get their claims processed. Um can you tell me right now that the automation and pension fiduciary service will not lead to a replacement of or reduction in the VBA workforce? Yes sir. Thank you for the question.
▶ 2:51:44We have been automating since 2014. In reality uh this year we're on target to automate over 320,000 claims. We have not um removed any individuals any employees um from their have lost their job because of automation. They may have been reassigned to maybe work compensation instead of pension or fiduciary, but we have no intention right now that I know of that I'm aware of, excuse me, to remove anybody because of what we're doing automation.
▶ 2:52:09But to give you some an aspect in a in an automated world, um, we have cases where a DIC claim came in, nine hours later, we had awarded the benefit and and send out the the letter and everything else to the surviving spouse with no human interaction. And that's truly, you know, talking about getting benefits out as quickly as we can. That's one of the goals we have is to make it, but the human will always be needed because of the complexity of some of the claims, right?
▶ 2:52:34We're that some of them are much more complex than what we could do in an automated space and and the and the difficulty some people have in applying for the claims in the first place and might need someone helping. Again, we're trying to get our veterans what they need. I appreciate you said no intention to, but just to drill into it a little further. Everybody at VBA is going to still be at VBA next year.
▶ 2:52:58So that's a that's a above my pay grade and and I'm prepared to talk to the legislation, but I I'm not prepared to talk to this. Again, what we're trying to do is this committee, my my sole focus on what's best for our veterans. How do we make sure that they're getting everything they are entitled to and they deserve? I want to make sure that that happens. I am not anti-technology. I think we can use technology to help our veterans to get those claims processed quickly.
▶ 2:53:21But when there are difficulties in the process, which inevitably there are going to be difficulties even with automation, we got to have people there who are ready to help our veterans. I want to make sure that they are. Um, along those same lines, have you talked to veterans? Do you guys I mean, because I know what I hear on the ground. I know when I go to veterans events in Louisville, Kentucky, what I hear from the veterans, right? And that's why I'm bringing those concerns here today. Do you have any data that says the veterans and other beneficiaries are like the automation or the algorithms that are calling the shots?
▶ 2:53:52So, I can speak from what we've done in in our space and and I would let Mr. Smith talk about what happens in the compensation space. We have received great feedback from VSOs and organizations like TAPS in the in the any area where we can. We actually have based on a law passed by Congress the ability to pay a surviving spouse based on evidence or record at the time of a veteran's death. we automate those claims.
▶ 2:54:14So we we will pay um the month of death payment, the burial payment, and if the veteran meets the requirements for 1318, we'll pay DIC payment without an application. And that's just based on the, you know, the surviving letting us know that the veteran has passed away and we validate the information and it happens. So we've gotten great feedback from VSOs, you know, that people get an award without even putting in an application. You know, we wish we could do that for more, but we have limited based off of what our what data we have. Mr. Mr. Smith probably talk more about the compensation side of this.
▶ 2:54:44So for the disability compensation, the automated decision support technology leverages technology to deal with the administrative burdens of claims processing. So it works on being able to pull in those digital records from VHA. It works on going out to folks to pull in private medical records, things of that nature. It allows the claims processors to focus more on the complexity and the analysis necessary to be able to deliver quality decisions. Thank you.
▶ 2:55:14And I am out of time. I'll yield back. Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mr. McGary. Mr. Self, recognized for five minutes, sir. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Colonel Wagner, can you describe how aggregation has helped the court be more consistent in in the past? I understand you have concerns about the future but uh in the Yes, thank you for your question representative self.
▶ 2:55:44Um the courts first of all the court's concerns about the current statute isn't um we don't want to speak about the authority to expand our jurisdiction or narrow it or broaden it. That's within Congress's purview on that. So we court doesn't want to speak about that. the the issues we brought up in the current about the current legislation deal with some of the language that appears ambiguous and we don't want to interpret it. So we wanted to highlight that.
▶ 2:56:11Um the court has tried um the court does have a active class action process where we aggregate cases. Um currently we have received 26 requests for class certification and the court has certified five of those.
▶ 2:56:3210 were denied and the rest the 11 other were either dismissed um they were either reached a negotiation on their own uh or something like it's still pending. Uh so the court has used it as you know and what was brought up by professor Wishnney is that the federal circuit has determined that our authority needs to be a little bit narrow and there was a case where the court uh the federal circuit determined that the court went a little too far. I hope that answers your question.
▶ 2:57:00Well the consistency was what I asked about. Has it improved the consistency of the Yes, I believe so. Okay.
▶ 2:57:18Um I can get back with you some more details on that, but I think that a lot of those answers about the consistency would have to be um answered by the veterans who've experienced it and if they and how it affects additional future case law. Well, would uh would the authority as in as outlined in the bill approve efficiency then? Let's talk about that.
▶ 2:57:44Are you willing to opine on Yes, aggregation would increase I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Richardson, I got you.
▶ 2:58:12Uh, if a if the veteran passes away while their caregivers is appealing their application to join the VA caregivers support program, what happens to the appeal? Sure. Thank you for the question, chairman. So, it depends. As long as we have the information available to us. So certain requirements are met and we have enough evidence or or um information we are able to render a decision and retroactively pay. Does that information have to live and breathe in one specific site?
▶ 2:58:37Because from way I understand it if an individual moves from their location where they reside to another one doesn't seem like the information flow it seems like the information flow is broken. We have access to JLV which allows us to access all data and all health records for any veteran in our I don't know if I exactly believe that statement right there.
▶ 2:59:03Does the guidance and training for evaluating applications to the VA caregiver support program that VHA employees receive match the guidance and training that VBA's employees receive? Thank you for the question, chairman. So adjudicators for VBA is different for the appeals that they file through the caregiver support program. So you have the board appeals, then you have AMA and supplemental. So you have supplemental claims and higher level reviews that VHA does within the caregiver support program.
▶ 2:59:32So the level of training that we do for our appeal staff is the same training that we give all of our staff who render any type of initial decision or any type of appeal decision. say more.
▶ 2:59:46So, when a veteran of when a veteran and caregiver a joint application is submitted to the program of comprehensive assistance for family caregivers, all of those folks who make those initial decisions on those original applications get the same level of training on standardization, consistency, um how to apply across the VA, across the caregiver support program. So within my program I have staff at the visions called seat team centralized eligibility and appeals.
▶ 3:00:14How many personnel do you have under your roughly about 2200 sir across the country? Yes sir. And they all come to the same spot or is this a virtual training now since 20 since co whenever that happened? It is a virtual training. Yes sir. Okay. So the folks that make those initial decisions on applications are stationed at the vis. Those that render decisions on appeals are stationed at the visions and within VA central office under me under my program office.
▶ 3:00:39So higher level review supplemental claims are decided in Veo and the VHA clinical appeals process is done through um the seat teams. If a veteran dials while their caregiver is pursuing an appeal, is that family caregiver caregiver eligible to receive any unpaid stipens owed at the time of the veteran's death? Yes, they are. as long as we have information that is available to us. So it would help if I just explained.
▶ 3:01:06So when a veteran caregiver applied to the program, there are certain steps that they must follow. Certain eligibility requirements must be met. And at any point along the way, if they don't meet eligibility requirements, they are denied at one. Let me ask you this. Forgive my interruption. Sure. Out of the laundry list of checks in the boxes that you have to have, if they miss one, they're done. They are denied at that point in the process. Yes. So just because a veteran passes away doesn't mean that we don't give retroactive benefits.
▶ 3:01:36It's only if we don't have that information available to us to render that decision. So for example, Mr. Chairman, if a veteran and caregiver are denied because it is deemed that the veteran doesn't need in-person personal care services, it doesn't make clinical sense to have the caregiver go through training. it doesn't make sense to do the caregiver assessment, the veteran assessment, go into the home on over on that particular application. So, they're denied at that point in the process.
▶ 3:02:04I would be willing to bet every caregiver that's living in a home with a veteran in need will disagree with what you just said. So, we if they don't meet program requirements for PCFC, we enroll them in PGCSS, our program for general caregiver support services, and we continue to help them as a caregiver in the journey of that particular veteran and his or her needs. That's why we have the two programs. how long what's the win? And you can give me a range here. Sure. I'll give you some latitude.
▶ 3:02:33What What's the window of confirmed or denied when a caregiver reaches out to the VA for this kind of support? So, today we render decisions um probably 9,000 applications come in a month. About 30% of those are approved for the program. 30 to 33%. What's the turnaround time? Uh 86% of applications are adjudicate or No, no, no. I'm sorry. Window. Like if I if I give it to him today. Yep. He's going to give me a response tomorrow. 86% are done in under 90 days. 90 days.
▶ 3:03:03Yes, sir. So when we have the four or five years, that's a anomaly. Those are for applications. When we're talking appeals, different different discussion. So VHA clinical. Let's walk back to application real quick. Sure. How long does an application normally take? 86% under 90 days. 90 days. Yes sir. Okay. So three months and then if it has to go into appeals does it get lost in the metaverse? It does not. So understand that the VHA clinical appeals roughly you have two levels of of VHA clinical appeals.
▶ 3:03:32Most of those decisions are done in under 45 days. Level one and level two. Now you come over to the AMA side which we had to implement back in 2021. We had to notify 450,000 veterans of their new rights to appeals as a result of a court case that happened in April of that year. We mailed out those applications in November of 2021 with no staff on board and by late summer of 2024 we finally had permanent staff on board. Today we adjudicate more decision more appeals that come in our door than we've received.
▶ 3:04:00So in a very very short time frame our team has turned around the number of appeals coming in our door than what we have originally received if that makes sense. So we started behind the power curve with appeals AMA don't answer this question that I'm fixing to ask you, but why why is this process so weighted and so challenging for our veterans and caregivers?
▶ 3:04:25We had a young lady sitting she's sitting in the chair just to the left of you, but just hearing her reading her testimony and and hearing her in here it it seems extremely burdensome. Now, I know the VA has to protect itself and a lot of times that's why that's how this is created, but have we gone too far too fast and got out ahead of the veterans where they can't keep up? Don't answer that question.
▶ 3:04:56Mr. Dyker, the board of the the board reports quality rates of roughly 95%. Uh but the court reported last year that 83 83% of board appeals were returned to the board because of of legal errors. What accounts for the discrepancy between these two numbers? Thank you for the question, Chairman Latrell.
▶ 3:05:20When we had the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims conference in September, I made the point that I'm about to make to you, and that is that a case is fundamentally different when it comes before the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims than it often is when it's before the Board of Veterans Appeals. We're talking about the same veteran. Yes, sir. Because, okay, let's make believe I'm not an attorney, but I have one sitting here and he's listening. Absolutely. So, what what oftenimes happens is Mr.
▶ 3:05:47McGarvey Esquire is not generally there with you at the board level. So that's not imputing anything that any of our VSOs do, but veterans most often get attorneys when they get to the court level in terms of providing them representation. So that attorney is able to go deeper into the file. They have an incentive to ensure that they are looking at every individual thing that could be there.
▶ 3:06:11And that case is different when it's presented by an attorney before the court of appeals for veterans claims than it may have been as it came up through the board of veterans appeals and even VBA before that. Is that an extra step that doesn't need to exist for 10% delta between those two In terms of the representation at each different stage, we certainly welcome additional attorney representation before the board of veterans appeals. Those numbers veterans know that. Is that something that we populate?
▶ 3:06:40I I think it's getting out there to be honest because the number of the number of appeals that we have that have veteran representation by attorneys at the board is increasing year-over-year. And I can tell you, sir, that as a person who adjudicates those, those also look fundamentally different than if they come directly from the American Legion or a state veteran service organization, you're packaging everything. Lawyers are packaging everything in the way that another lawyer knows how to look at it.
▶ 3:07:07So they're able to say on page 424 of this record, you can find this information. They're able to say based on this regulation, this is the action that you should take. Mr. Sy, Miss Hayes, I'm sorry. I apologize. I went long. Thank you. I recognize Miss Hayes, you're recognized for five minutes. Thank you for allowing me to be here.
▶ 3:07:32I'm not sure if the witnesses heard my opening statement earlier, but my bill, the Caring for Survivors Act, would modernize survivor benefits to ensure families receive the financial help they deserve. I recognize the costs concerns of implementing this legislation. However, the cost is likely lower than the current reported estimate, which is based on outdated data from the PAC Act, which was passed in 2022.
▶ 3:07:56VA data shows that of the 382,000 survivors originally estimated to be eligible for benefits in the PACT act, less than 10% have submitted claims nearly 3 years after the bill has been passed. Accordingly, the number of survivors that will apply for benefits under the Caring for Survivors Act is also likely far less than the number of eligible individuals included in the current cost estimates.
▶ 3:08:20Having a better estimate of the number of survivors who will likely apply for benefits will allow for a more accurate cost estimate of my bill. Mr. Deer, I my question is does the VA know how many survivors are likely to apply for DIC benefits under the Caring for Survivors Act? And is it fair to assume that we may see the same 10% rate of survivors that have submitted PAC Act claims compared to the original estimates on the number of eligible individuals? Would that also apply to this bill?
▶ 3:08:50Representative Hayes, with respect, I'm going to defer to Mr. Freel on this. ma'am. Thank you for the question. As it relates to the PAC Act, we we identified we didn't have the causes of death. So, we identified all beneficiaries where DIC had been denied. We sent out over 300,000 letters as required by the law. We were expecting a higher rate of return, but it didn't come in that high. Uh today we are seeing you know um an increase year-over-year in our population within the DIC program.
▶ 3:09:20Uh the issue with uh determining the cost of it the first part is you know we agree and with with the bill we support it appending pending appropriations that you know the increase of the DIC rate to 55% at 100% rate. The second part of it is a lot more complicated. You know it says to treat 10 to treat five years as it as it relates to 10. So would our interpretation of that means that we would be 50% of the DIC rate if they were at five years or the 100%.
▶ 3:09:50We don't know what congressional intent is. So it's fi if it's five and a half years what's that number right? So that's part of the clarity we need. The other part of that is any of those survivors that we would grant DIC to say on the reduced DI 1318 rate would then have to be adjudicated for DIC because it would be a higher rate.
▶ 3:10:10So we would have to still do the research and get the information to see if they are in fact eligible for the full DIC rate, you know, and then we we also would need clarity on what the intent is for the for the other parts of the benefit. So if at five years we're going to give 50% for DIC, what if there's a child? Does that mean it's 55% or 50% of the child rate or is it that they get to the 100% of the child rate? There's a lot of things there.
▶ 3:10:36we would be more than happy to sit down with with your staff and work through some of the issues we have and being able to develop a costing for that. So, is it possible and I I mean I really want this legislation to see the light of day because it is so important and I I guess just saying it would cost too much or we don't have the information just doesn't feel like an appropriate answer to me. I I would propose that we say under this scenario, this is what would happen.
▶ 3:11:04under this scenario this is what would happen you know these are the number of people who are eligible if 50% applied this would be the number if 10% applied this would be a the number because I believe that ultimately having the best data that reflects the likelihood of participation in the program will give us as members of Congress the information that we need to at least explore options here and I mean like I said this is I'm back again trying to push this legislation because the families the survivors the children
▶ 3:11:34they need it. I mean it's long overdue and if we don't have the data I feel like we have the facilities to we have the information all we need to do is pull it together and disagregate it and I think we could give you information for the first part right the 100% 55% of it's the second piece that's that's really difficult because they may be come in and say okay you're 50% today but oh by the way when we adjudicate the claim now you're entitled to we're the United States of America there's nothing beyond our capacity I didn't say it was beyond our capacity I just said We
▶ 3:12:05like for our purposes, we need clarification of the intent of that section. And so then we could we could sit down with our our budgeting people and and kind of get a better scenario of what it looks like and how how that would play out. Well, I'd love to continue to work with you to try to get as much good data as we can to make the best possible case. Thank you again for allowing me to join this committee and I yield back. Thank you, Miss Hayes. Mr. McGarvey, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for letting me ask just a few more questions. I want to start kind of back where we were when I was asking questions last time.
▶ 3:12:34Um, we were talking about some what's happening at at um at VBA and doing what's going on. So, Mr. Dykert, I want to start with you. Uh, what we're talking about some of the things that are happening with automation and whether our veterans are fully getting taken care of. And this leads me to something that might be related or might not be related, but I want to ask about it.
▶ 3:12:56There's a May 27th bulletin from the chief human capital officer extending the probationary period of all Board of Veterans Appeals employees hired after March of 2024 for an additional year. Let's talk about what this means in plain English. Uh if you're probationary period, you're there for a year. Uh and then after a year, you're no longer on your probationary period.
▶ 3:13:17So if in March of 2024 you were hired or April of 2024 you were hired, you're out of your probationary year, then May 27th a bulletin is issued saying, "No, you're still in probationary year." Was BVA consulted prior to this decision? And if so, what was their feedback? Uh, thank you for the question, Ranking Member McGarvey. I cannot say whether the board was consulted with regards to this particular memo. Uh it's something I'm certainly happy to take back for the record, but I'm not aware at this time of whether we were consulted.
▶ 3:13:47Okay. I'd love to know if if you were consulted and if there was feedback. So please get back to us on that. And it's also my understanding that this applies to all probationary employees at the board irrespective of their actual performance during the preceding year. Is that correct? Um I'm going to have to claim a little ignorance and if you'll permit me to tell you why.
▶ 3:14:08I had knee surgery three weeks ago and there's been a lot of movement in this and so I know that I have missed some of the emails explaining exactly how this is going to play out and exactly what we're going to do with it. Um so between recovering from that preparing for this um I don't have the specific information that I can give you at this time but it is again something that I'm happy to get back with you on. Sir, can anybody answer that question? Nobody can answer that question.
▶ 3:14:34One thing I can say, uh, Representative McGarvey, um, even under that OCO memo, I know that they did have a carve out for those who have a re veterans preference. So, if you had a veterans preference, your probationary year stayed at one year. Okay? Because the purpose of a probationary period is to make sure that employees are learning, that they're progressing well enough to be granted full employment.
▶ 3:14:57Uh there are people who have worked there who are finished with their probationary year to our understanding that now are back in a probationary year which is it BVA's position that absolutely none of the employees that hired during the last year passed that muster. So we will follow whatever guidance we were given by VA's OO. Um but that doesn't mean that anybody who is at that point hasn't passed Buster.
▶ 3:15:23We evaluate our attorneys, especially our new attorneys on a consistent basis throughout their probationary year. If that becomes two probationary years, then we evaluate them consistently through that entire time. Yeah. And again, it's we talk about these things in such technical terms of let's really phrase what's happening here. There are people who signed up, they knew they get a probationary period for a year, they served that probationary period for a year, now they're back under a probationary period for another year. Why under a probationary period? especially if they are doing a good enough job.
▶ 3:15:53And one of the things that happens when you're under a probationary period is you can you're easier to fire. You don't have the same civil service protections that someone who who is no longer in a probationary period has. Yeah. So, I just got to ask bluntly, is BVA planning or does it intend to plan a significant reduction in force at the Board of Veterans Appeals?
▶ 3:16:20In terms of anything that may be coming down from VA on high, I can't answer that. I do not know what overall plans are. What I can say as it comes to the board specifically, we hired staff. We hired attorneys because we needed them to do the adjudications to deliver answers to veterans. We invest a lot of time, a lot of money into training them, into getting them up to speed. It would not be my intention if anybody is doing well enough to be retained to do anything other than with them than to retain them.
▶ 3:16:51And look, I appreciate that. I believe you. I hope your knee's feeling better. The answer is still not satisfactory. Right. What you're telling me is you you can't tell me whether that's happening or not. And what I do think we all agree on is veterans need the best possible care. They need the best people working on their claims. It's helpful when they have attorneys working on their claims. We are now making it easier to fire people who should be there no matter what. Um, and let's just be honest about it. That makes it harder to recruit, to retain. It hurts morale.
▶ 3:17:21It hurts the people who are working there. And who does that ultimately hurt? Our veterans. That's who it ultimately hurts. That's why we're concerned about this. That's why I want you to get back to us with those answers because that we don't want to hurt our veterans. So, Mr. Chairman, you've been very kind. I yield back. Whose role is it in the appeals process to ensure that the board's decisions or remands are correct, fair, and timely I'm sorry.
▶ 3:17:49Chairman Latrell, could you whose role is it in the appeals process to ensure that the board decisions or remands are correct, fair and timely? So there is no one individual entity that would say entity or person. Neither seems like a problem. So, doesn't it?
▶ 3:18:14What specifically, sir, would you be envisioning that in terms of Oh, that's why I'm asking you. Well, I mean, veterans law judges will issue a decision, will issue a remand based on who whose role is it in the appeals process to ensure that the board's decisions or remands are correct, fair, and timely. So it's the individual veterans law judge's role to ensure that all of those things that person. Yes, sir. Specifically. Yes, sir. Okay. It's Are we sure?
▶ 3:18:45So certainly we have a quality review process. They select a s statistically significant number of cases to review to determine whether there are any number of three errors out of what's the what's the end value of that evaluation? I believe it's 5% but don't of how many out of all of the total uh number of decisions that are dispatched. What's that annually? So this year we're on track for 118,000.
▶ 3:19:16So well, we're always told not to do math in public, but we'll go the uh 5%. Yeah, look at about 6,000 cases that the board's office of assessment improvement will look at this year. Is that a high enough number? Just out of curiosity, 5% out of 118. I mean, you would think you would be pushing over 20 just to get a good Well, so margin of error.
▶ 3:19:41Any person that you would have in the office of assessment and improvement looking over those numbers is also a person who is no longer drafting cases or a judge who is no longer signing them. How many people are doing that? Uh, I do not know, sir. I can get back to you on that. Rough guesstimation. Uh, we now have couple hundred. What's that? Couple hundred. Six people. Six people. Yes, sir. Six people. Don't make I'm not gonna laugh. I'm not gonna laugh.
▶ 3:20:11That seems like a problem, right? That seems like a problem. It's It's certainly You don't have to answer that question. I'm not going to put you on the spot, sir. All right. Thank you. Thank you all the witnesses for testifying today about these important proposals. Ranking member Garvey, would you like to make a closing statement? I look forward to working through these issues with the department and my colleagues on this on this subcommittee.
▶ 3:20:38The bills discussed today will provide important improvements for veterans, caregivers, and survivors navigating the VA claims and appeals process. I ask unanimous consent that the statements for the record we have received be into the record. Hearing no objection so ordered. I ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous material. Hearing no objection so orders. I thank the members and the witnesses for their attendance and participation today. This hearing is I like that. Okay.
▶ 3:21:08Most may not happen this year.