▶ 0:03:50>> the subcommittee on water, wildlife and fisheries will come to order. Good afternoon everyone. I want to welcome members, witnesses and our guests in the audience in today's hearing. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time under committee rule for any oral opening. Statements at hearings are limited to the chair and the ranking member.
▶ 0:04:12I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other members opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with committee rule three. O without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the congressman from alaska, Mr. begich, the congressman from texas, doctor babin, the congressman from arizona, Mr. escobar and the congressman from florida, Mr.
▶ 0:04:40Fine be allowed to participate in today's hearing without objection. So ordered. We are here today to consider seven legislative measures the endangered species transparency and reasonableness act of 2025, sponsored by representative mcclintock of california. The sushi act, h.r. 3706, the sushi act sponsored by representative babin of texas h.r.
▶ 0:05:063831, the florida safe seas act of 2025, sponsored by representative webster of florida. H.r. 4033, the sturgeon conservation and sustainability act of 2025, sponsored by representative fine of florida h.r.
▶ 0:05:264293, to amend the sikes act to increase flexibility with respect to cooperative and interagency agreements for land management off of installations sponsored by representative eskamani of arizona and h.r.
▶ 0:05:414294, the moss act of 2025, sponsored by representative elfreth of maryland, and a discussion draft to amend the marine mammal protection act, or mpa, sponsored by representative begich of alaska. I now recognize myself for a five minute opening statement today.
▶ 0:06:03The subcommittee on water, wildlife and fisheries will examine seven bills that cover a wide range of issues, from a discussion draft to modernize the marine mammal protection act to several species specific bills that address regional issues such as shark feeding and invasive blue catfish, and the esa treatment of farm raised sturgeon. In the interest of time, I will highlight only two of the bills before us today, but I've already identified their numbers and their names.
▶ 0:06:34The first is the mpa discussion draft. When mpa was first enacted in 1972, it was 20 pages long. The document that noaa or noaa created just to establish the criteria for determining, quote, negligible impact, end quote, which is undefined in in the pr now is just as long, which is representative of how regulatory creep has affected the vast majority of statutes
▶ 0:07:05That we deal with on this subcommittee. The discussion draft defines terms like negligible impact and makes long overdue reforms to its regulatory process that governs tribal activities, state fish and wildlife agencies, commercial fishing, offshore energy and the maritime sector.
▶ 0:07:22The discussion drafts reforms to the regulatory process are crucial to building on the success of the one big, beautiful bill advancing the trump administration's goal to unleash america's energy resources. Next, we have a bill by congressman cisco which makes changes to the sikes act, a statute meant to incentivize species conservation on department of defense lands by shielding them from the more punitive aspects of the endangered species act. Unfortunately.
▶ 0:07:52Unfortunately, in fort huachuca, a U.S. army base in southern arizona that houses many important assets such as the us army intelligence center of excellence and us army network enterprise technology command. Not all of the sites promised benefits benefits have been fully realized. This army base has, in fact, been, in nearly a decade of litigation with environmental groups over their ability to maintain an adequate water supply for base operations.
▶ 0:08:21Congressman bill would provide the flexibility needed to ensure the long term viability of critical military assets. And lastly, I want to take a moment to recognize one of our witnesses, major william holcomb. He recently volunteered on his own time to assist with the law enforcement response to the recent flooding tragedy at camp mystic in kerr county, texas. We all thank you for your service.
▶ 0:08:49With that, I want to take the time to thank all of our witnesses for being here today, and I look forward to a robust conversation. And one last thing before I pass this on to other members of the committee, I want to thank nick miller for her many years of service. Your knowledge, dedication, commitment and professionalism has been so appreciated. We wish you luck, but we will miss you.
▶ 0:09:15I now recognize ranking member hoyle for her opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. Good afternoon and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these bills today. Several proposals before us address real challenges in wildlife conservation. H.r.
▶ 0:09:424294 tackles the invasive blue catfish harming the chesapeake bay. H.r. 3831 extends florida's shark feeding ban to federal waters. H.r. 3706, the sushi act improves detection of illegal fish that hurt our domestic industry. But I have serious concerns about some of the other bills here today. H.r. 433, the sturgeon bill, claims to help a small handful of domestic caviar producers who may have some esa listed sturgeon on hand.
▶ 0:10:11But the major winners from this bill are the largest caviar producers in the world from china, which accounts for over 50% of imports in the us and russia to a smaller extent, who have spent years lobbying, lobbying for more access to us markets for caviar. They produce from esa listed fish. Right now that caviar is banned from the us, but this bill would allow them to import it with little oversight. This bill undermines conservation and undercuts us producers who follow the rules.
▶ 0:10:43I also have serious concerns about h.r. 180, the endangered endangered species transparency bill. As written, this bill would cherry pick the science to benefit special interest groups and sanction a complete violation of our environment. What concerns me most are the bills that are leading to the majority's plans to gut and shred the marine mammal protection act. The mpa has protected whales and dolphins for over 50 years. No marine mammal species has gone extinct in the us waters since it passed, and that's remarkable.
▶ 0:11:14With their new proposals, um, with this new proposal, um, instead of directly shredding these protections, they're tinkering around the edges, hoping we wouldn't notice. So let's take stock of what's proposed waiving mpa requirements, waiving esa consultations, and gutting agency funding so that we have science to rely on. These proposals make it easier to harass and kill vulnerable marine mammal populations.
▶ 0:11:42These are our dolphins, our manatees, our whales, who we love and want the next generation to be able to see to. For example, there are just 73 remaining southern resident killer whales who frequently visit us off the coast of oregon. Behind me, you can see a photo of the youngest members of one of these pods. This calf was first seen in april, and earlier this month, researchers confirmed that she's a girl.
▶ 0:12:07This is an exciting step towards one day fully recovering this iconic species, but this bill would set us back. It limits common sense measures that have helped push the us navy and shipping companies to develop ways to avoid harassing orcas like the one behind me. The president's budget also drastically cuts agency resources to do mpa and esa reviews. You can expect more work from less funding. This isn't a reform or a reauthorization.
▶ 0:12:37This is opening the door to the harassment and murder of our marine wildlife. I'm open for a case by case review of mpa requirements. If anybody wants to talk about california sea lions and their effect on salmon on the columbia river, I will happily work with anyone. But wholesale ignoring these protections is the wrong way forward.
▶ 0:12:59As we prepared for this hearing, we heard from whale watch groups, tribes, fishers, our next generation of scientists, and others, all who were alarmed by the ways this bill puts iconic wildlife, tourism, fisheries and jobs at risk. These stakeholders depend on healthy living wildlife to support their economies and opportunities for their kids and grandkids.
▶ 0:13:23Our responsibility is to leave future generations a world where both people and wildlife can thrive, and I am willing to work across the aisle on reasonable improvements to our current system anytime. But we cannot undo decades of progress. And with that, thank you. And I yield back. The chair now recognizes the ranking member, huffman, for his opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. Um, I want to begin, as I will do at every opportunity for the rest of this congress by talking about the climate crisis.
▶ 0:13:52While some of my colleagues want to ignore it, the reality is we are living through it right now. Wildfires are raging across the west, choking communities with toxic smoke, threatening lives and homes. Record breaking heat waves are overwhelming public health systems, critical infrastructure, from drinking water systems to power grids, is straining under climate stress, exposing americans to increasingly unsafe conditions.
▶ 0:14:19The ocean, which we're going to be talking about today, is no refuge there, too. Temperatures are soaring, pushing marine ecosystems to the brink. Now, this is not a distant worry. It's not something we can dump off on our kids and grandkids like the majority did recently with the debt and the deficit. This is a present emergency.
▶ 0:14:40And yet, instead of rising to meet the crisis, house republicans are dragging us further backward and deeper into the crisis, using this committee to dismantle the very laws that protect clean air, clean water, biodiversity and our future. In today's hearing is a prime example. Just the latest installment of what I call team extremes extinction agenda. At the center of the hearing is a so-called reauthorization of the marine mammal protection act.
▶ 0:15:11Wouldn't that be nice if we were just here to talk about reauthorizing the marine mammal protection act, or maybe improving it, strengthening it, one of the most successful conservation laws that we've got. But instead we are here with republicans taking a sledgehammer to it. This bill amounts to a death sentence for many marine mammals, and one of team extreme's most dangerous proposals yet. Let's be clear the marine mammal protection act has been a cornerstone of ocean conservation for over 50 years.
▶ 0:15:41It is science based as a precautionary approach, and that's why we now have healthy populations of humpback whales, elephant seals and sea lions in my district. It's the reason not a single marine mammal species has gone extinct in us waters since 1972. As the ranking member noted in her opening. And it's amazing a major reason why we can proudly boast of the world's most sustainable fisheries. But this bill doesn't build on that legacy.
▶ 0:16:09It attempts to unravel it. It guts science based decision making. It rewrites critical definitions to downplay them. It fast tracks industrial permits and eliminates key safeguards, all to benefit the oil and gas industry primarily, but also a few other commercial interests. It's a gift to polluters.
▶ 0:16:28It is a direct threat to vulnerable species like the southern resident killer whale, which has just 73 individuals left and cannot survive with an additional 5 to 10 deaths every year. Under this bill, several more deaths annually would be brushed off as negligible by the standard that is being proposed. That's not a path to recovery. It is a path to extinction. This legislation doesn't exist in a vacuum.
▶ 0:16:57Ocean temperatures are rising, arctic ice is disappearing. Species are shifting, starving or dying. And yet this bill abandons the precautionary principle that has served so well, uh, guided marine conservation for decades, precisely at the time when we need it most. Species like rice's whale in the north atlantic. Right whale already teetering on the brink of extinction, will have no chance if this legislation is enacted.
▶ 0:17:23Are we really comfortable letting these iconic species go extinct on our watch? That's the question we should be asking. But incredibly, this bill even rolls back the wildly popular and effective dolphin safe tuna protections from the 1980s. Republicans apparently are betting that the american people won't care if thousands and thousands of dolphins are slaughtered to bring us fish filets.
▶ 0:17:49I think the american people will care if the majority were serious about improving the mpa, we'd be working in a bipartisan manner on legislation to ensure that noaa and the fish and wildlife service have the resources they need to monitor and manage marine mammal populations to strengthen protections for endangered species, and to respond to emerging threats from climate change and industrial activity. But this pro extinction agenda doesn't even stop there. We're also considering h.r.
▶ 0:18:19180 legislation my republican colleagues claim is about transparency and government accountability. But in reality, it is just a playbook for the mining and logging interests to dismantle endangered species protections. This bill would impose onerous reporting and disclosure disclosure requirements for essa implementation and litigation, creating new bureaucratic hurdles for scientists while unsurprisingly exempting industry from any equivalent requirements.
▶ 0:18:48So, yes, I'll keep reminding my colleagues on this committee what's at stake. Because while team extreme works to overturn science, the american people are starting to be increasingly concerned about the climate crisis and all of these other consequences. Thank you, madam chair, I yield back. >> the chair now recognizes chairman westerman for his opening statement.
▶ 0:19:11>> thank you, madam chair, and thank you to the witness and those who've traveled to washington to discuss this important issue that's going to be covered in our legislative hearing today. Uh, this morning, we held a full committee oversight hearing on restoring common sense to nepa reviews. Uh, it's consistent with the theme of permitting reform this afternoon. One of the bills on this hearing's agenda is a discussion draft to reauthorize and reform the marine mammal protection act.
▶ 0:19:40The mpa has been law for more than 50 years, and its permitting process and subsequent authorizations affect everyone. The mpa, like many others, has been subject to extensive litigation over the last several decades and is filled with a lot of ambiguous terms that govern its implementation.
▶ 0:20:01One jarring example of this act's implementation came to my attention when I visited the nisqually indian tribe in the pacific northwest a few years ago. The region and its tribes face a pervasive challenge due to the increasing population of sea lions and other pinnipeds, which are hindering the recovery of endangered salmon. Previous reforms to the mpa have sought to address sea lion predation in the region by authorizing take.
▶ 0:20:30Unfortunately, the mpas implementation has hindered efforts to recover threatened and endangered species like salmon, ultimately limiting the nisqually tribe's access to salmon, which is their traditional source of protein. While further discussions are needed to identify the appropriate legislative solution to this and many other ongoing problems, what's clear is that the mpa mpa, as it currently exists, is not always meeting its intended goals.
▶ 0:20:57As the committee continues to engage with stakeholders. Addressing sea lion predation is just one of the issues that will be top of mind. The discussion draft before us makes several important reforms to mpa. It clarifies terms that are undefined, removes arbitrary timelines, and seeks to ensure that the best available science is used in making decisions and determinations.
▶ 0:21:22While some may inaccurately attempt to characterize the discussion draft as a giveaway to certain industries, it is essential that everyone understands the full scope of stakeholders impacted by the implementation of mpa. Simply put, the mpa touches nearly every activity that happens offshore in us waters.
▶ 0:21:45For example, the state of texas parks and wildlife department has been attempting to gain authorization under the mpa for its gillnet fishery research program. For more than a decade, this program has been one of the most important for texas fisheries management. The department acknowledges that it is the cornerstone of the longest running fishery independent data collection program in the country.
▶ 0:22:05Despite working for more than a decade to receive authorization under mpa for the research program, they were again unfortunately unable to do so. As a result, texas lost more than a year's worth of critical data, undermining fisheries management for texas and the gulf coast. This is not the outcome that we should expect from the regulatory process. Under this act. It's clear that we need to improve the mpa processes.
▶ 0:22:33The reforms outlined in this discussion draft represent the first step in the committee's work to reform the mpa and to bring it up to date in the 21st century. This effort aligns well with our broader effort to improve U.S. permitting processes, a top priority for the committee, uh, for, uh, and for many who are involved.
▶ 0:22:53Uh, once again, I want to thank say thank you to the witnesses who will be here today, and I look forward to the discussion and yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you. Chairman. Westerman. Westerman I will now introduce our first panel. And as as is typical with legislative hearings, the bill sponsors are recognized for five minutes each to discuss their bills. I now recognize congressman mcclintock for five minutes. >> I thank you, madam chairman. Uh, h.r.
▶ 0:23:22180 is the result of a multi-year effort dating back to the work of doc hastings and rob bishop, the distinguished chairman of the natural resources committee, for many years. It stems from the frustration so often expressed by affected state and local governments and private citizens over the science behind essa listings, that important scientific data is either ignored or obscured. There should be nothing secret about science.
▶ 0:23:50Science must stand the rigors of the scientific process, which is founded on inquiry, challenge and replication. The harsh glare of conflict is essential to scientific inquiry, and that in turn requires absolute transparency. All of the data that goes into a scientific finding must be available to all of science to assure it commands consensus and can withstand any challenge. That's what gives it credibility.
▶ 0:24:18For years, however, findings that have led to essa listings have often been shrouded in secrecy that prevents them from challenge and testing, undermining their credibility and potentially misleading policy in matters that can cost not only the livelihoods of thousands of people, but the authority and respectability of the law itself. The solution should be self-evident. Require the U.S.
▶ 0:24:42Fish and wildlife service and the national marine fisheries service to post on the internet the best available commercial and scientific data that they use to support their essa listing proposals, and to consider data submitted by state, local and tribal governments. There are a total of about 2300 essa listings, many with profound implications to the economy. In eight years, the obama administration alone added 395 new listings.
▶ 0:25:09Yet the government often refuses to make public the actual science and data they cite to support key essa findings, even data sponsored directly or indirectly through federal taxpayer dollars. A few years ago, it was noted that less than 2% of listed species have recovered, and most of those are not because of protections afforded by the essa, but because the original science that went into their listings was simply wrong.
▶ 0:25:39A committee report from 2018 cited myriad complaints by state officials and notes, quote, although listings are readily available to the public, the scientific and commercial data used in making such decisions is generally unavailable. Testimony from local entities has raised concerns regarding unavailability of reports used to make controversial listing decisions. End quote.
▶ 0:26:00It went on to note, quote, local governments, particularly those in areas with significant portion of federally owned lands, have expressed concerns that federal essa implementing agencies often ignore locally generated science, and more than one case, a court order, has been required to obtain listing data from federal officials, even though the data was obtained through taxpayer funded studies making that data fully available to the public enlists far reaching expertise to
▶ 0:26:31Evaluate and critique the decisions based on that data. Time and again, statisticians, engineers and scientists sometimes professional, sometimes amateur, have revealed major flaws in the data and analysis of major findings, with overwhelming bearing on public policy. As patrick henry famously noted, I'm willing to know the truth, the whole truth, to know the worst and to provide for it. The american people should be able to access data that the federal government uses to support significant essa decisions.
▶ 0:27:01They should be able to confirm that these decisions are based on the best available scientific and commercial data, not merely citations to unattainable unpublished studies or bureaucrats professional opinions. The legislation also conforms the essa litigation to the equal access to justice act that limits plaintiffs fees to $125 per hour, unless a judge determines special factors to justify our higher amount.
▶ 0:27:26This is aimed at some outrageous claims exceeding $750 an hour in settlements. At least two attorneys racked up $2 million in fees by suing the government in this manner. True science welcomes challenge and debate, and it demands that data be true, accurate and replicable.
▶ 0:27:49When someone hides behind data, or when someone hides data behind a cloak of secrecy and claims that their exclusive and inscrutable domain. That's not a scientist.
▶ 0:28:01That's a politician masquerading as a scientist, or maybe 1 or 2, even here today, making data available and accessible to everyone through the internet will instill accountability, allow transparent review of data and science, justifying important policy considerations, and help ensure that the essa reflects 21st century technological and scientific advances for species recovery. With that, I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. mcclintock.
▶ 0:28:29I now recognize congresswoman elfreth for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair and ranking member hoyle, for taking up h.r. 4294, the malls act. In today's hearing. The chesapeake bay is the largest estuary in the united states, with more coastline across its watershed than the entirety of california. It's a pillar of our local recreation, seafood and tourist economies.
▶ 0:28:55But like so many ecosystems across the nation, the bay has been invaded and its keystone species of blue crabs, oysters and rockfish are being threatened by an invasive aquatic species. In this case, the invasive blue catfish poses a direct ecological and economic threat to the chesapeake bay, which I am, which is why I'm today introducing the bipartisan malls act alongside vice chairman whitman to address the damage inflicted by the blue catfish while also strengthening our local seafood industry and
▶ 0:29:25Providing a new source of protein to pets nationwide. Blue catfish, like so many invasive species, were introduced in the 1970s in virginia for recreational purposes, and it was believed that they would simply stay in the freshwater tributaries and not hop, skip, and jump over to the larger chesapeake bay. Unfortunately, blue catfish are now not only in every tidal fish tidal area of the bay, but now they are the most abundant biomass in many of those tributaries. Furthermore, they have no natural predators in the wild and the bay.
▶ 0:29:55Uh, so it's very difficult to control population growth. Uh, they can live up to 20 years and weigh up to 100 pounds. They eat approximately 10% of their bio, their body weight every single day and have an extremely fast metabolism. I'm bringing this all up to say their meals typically consist. As you can see behind me, of blue crabs, rockfish, juvenile oysters.
▶ 0:30:17They are indiscriminate in what they eat every single day, and we're facing significant economic damage to our seafood industry, which, again, is central to our local economy in maryland and virginia. In maryland's portion of the chesapeake bay alone, the winter dredge survey found that blue crab populations are at their second lowest number recorded since 1990, and juvenile crab populations are at its third lowest on record. This population crisis is being felt by my constituents, a summer staple I hope many of you enjoy while you're in town.
▶ 0:30:47A bushel of blue crabs that can then be steamed and seasoned with old bay now costs $400 for a bushel. When just ten years ago it cost 275. One clear perpetrator. Again, as you can see from the stomach contents of a blue catfish caught actually in virginia, you can see is the blue catfish. Uh, you can see oysters, blue crab, other fun things all throughout. But there is some good news. Blue catfish is delicious and it's nutritious. They're high in protein and omega three seconds.
▶ 0:31:18And according to a new report from bass, scientists do not retain pfas like other fish do. But because of a federal rule requiring processing for human consumption of these blue catfish under usda inspection. While all other fish are processed under fda inspection, watermen struggle to sell them at a financially sustainable price. The market has been artificially bogged down by federal regulations, and we simply cannot meet the urgency of this moment.
▶ 0:31:43So apart from ordering blue catfish, please, when you see it on a menu, I'm asking everybody on this committee and folks watching at home. It is delicious. We are also introducing, again the bipartisan malls act mitigation action and waterman support act, which is going to establish a pilot program within noaa's chesapeake bay office to facilitate a new market for chesapeake bay blue crabs, blue catfish into the pet and animal food industry in an effort to take millions of pounds of these harmful fish out of our waterways, noaa will administer the grants to pet and animal
▶ 0:32:14Food manufacturers to ensure watermen are properly incentivized to catch these blue catfish in the chesapeake bay and establish transportation, processing, and manufacturing structures for the long term market. Throughout the two year pilot program, noaa will collect data on the ecological and economic impacts of this program on the population of invasive blue catfish and other species in the bay, the economic impact on watermen, and the market response and processes from pet and animal food manufacturers.
▶ 0:32:42Noaa will additionally report back to congress on best practices, lessons learned, and recommendations for additional species in other watersheds that may benefit from this program. If this pilot program is successful, it could be a creative policy solution that could also work in other watersheds. Take asian carp in the mississippi or if the chair were still here, snakeheads in arkansas. While we can all do our part to again order this blue catfish when you see it on a menu, it's not a problem that we can simply eat our way out of.
▶ 0:33:12So I'm proud to introduce this first of a kind legislation. I'm grateful for collaboration of my colleagues, including representative wittman, clay higgins, and hoyer. And I urge support for h.r. 4294. And madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you very much. I now recognize congressman fine for five minutes. >> well, thank you, madam chair. And thank you for discussing the bill today. I'm here to talk about everyone's favorite food, caviar, uh, you know, food of the masses that that we all seem to enjoy. To be serious, I'm here on behalf of a couple of constituents.
▶ 0:33:41Um, sturgeon, where many types of caviar come from are an endangered species, and justifiably so. And I would do nothing to try to change that. However, over the last several decades, we've invented this idea of aquaculture where we can harvest fish to that we would not want to affect in the wild.
▶ 0:33:59And some constituents of mine, um, over the over the decades have come up with the idea of and it's not unique to them of engaging in aquaculture, which would yield caviar doesn't affect wild sturgeon in any way, but would allow that business to operate. So my bill, h.r. 4033, is the sturgeon conservation and sustainability act of 2025.
▶ 0:34:18It amends the endangered species act to exempt sturgeon legally held in captivity or controlled environments, and their progeny from certain esa prohibitions, unless they are reintroduced to the wild, where again they would be fully protected. It requires documentation and inventory controls to make sure there's regulatory compliance. It prevents duplicative and unnecessary recordkeeping requirements.
▶ 0:34:41The bill is necessary because the endangered species act listing of surgeons does not differentiate between wild caught and sturgeon in captivity. It's just a blanket exclusion. Such blanket listings don't do anything but hurt small businesses in my district and around the country. You may have an aquaculture farm in yours that wants to do the same. We can still be good stewards of conservation and support small businesses at the same time.
▶ 0:35:06Frankly, by not doing this sort of thing, we encourage around the world harvesting of wild sturgeon, which is something that I don't think any of us want. So this bill will both create business opportunities for those people who want to engage in things responsibly, but also protect the wild sturgeon that I think that we all that we all seek to protect. And so with that, that's the bill and I yield back. >> thank you. Congressman. Fine. I now recognize congressman webster for five minutes.
▶ 0:35:38>> thank you, madam chair. Um, my bill. >> the florida safe seas act, uh, is a comprehensive, common sense approach to ensuring the public safety of florida's, uh, swimmers, divers, beachgoers, lots of people. Uh, thus far this year, there have been eight reported shark attacks.
▶ 0:35:59Three of them have been in my own state of florida back 20 years ago, um, when I was in the state senate, florida took action to address the dangers of sharks by. Uh, posing a at the water ban in the waters of, uh, our waters for hand feeding of sharks in the warm waters of florida state waters of florida.
▶ 0:36:31So, um, because hand feeding that that sort of conditions the shark to understand or think that that, uh, there's humans, there's food. So it conditions them to know that. And, uh, my bill aligns the federal law with existing state law by prohibiting the hand feeding of sharks in federal waters off the coast of florida, as well.
▶ 0:36:57Currently, the federal government prohibits shark feeding and exclusive economic zones like hawaii and the us territories of pacific. The florida safe seas act simply adds florida, uh, to that list. And, um, provides, uh, ourselves with a kind of a we have sort of a unique ecotourism, uh, in florida, and it provides for both floridians and visitors to enjoy things like our wildlife.
▶ 0:37:29And by maintaining safety, uh, that would be a priority for us. So, as many of you know, the federal lands, uh, where it, uh, whether it be a national park or a preserve or wildlife refuge, visitors are reminded time and time again not to feed the animals and wildlife. Yet in federal waters, it's it is not prohibited. It's actually permissible.
▶ 0:37:57Uh, my bill would ensure that the safety of floridians, uh, in seas and address a practice that is unnecessarily put our beachgoers and divers in harm's way. And, uh, we want to protect them. Thank you for. >> the gentleman yield. >> I would yield. >> thank you, Mr. webster. It's important. This is the 50th anniversary of the jaws movie, and I still don't feel safe going back in the water yet after seeing that as a kid. So this is.
▶ 0:38:28>> you have to come to florida. >> okay? This is important. It's important. So anyway, no good work. Thank you. Sir, I yield back. >> thank you. Yield back. >> thank you, Mr. webster. I now recognize congressman begich for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. I'd like to begin by sincerely thanking the committee staff for their hard work and collaboration in producing this mpa discussion draft. This is not a final product.
▶ 0:38:53It is a first step, but it's a strong step. And I appreciate the thoughtful approach the committee has taken to get us to this point. The marine mammal protection act has been in place for over 50 years, and during that time it served an important role in conserving marine mammals and protecting our oceans. But as the decades have passed, we've also seen how its implementation, particularly in the use of vague or overly precautionary standards, has led to confusion, delay and unintended harm. In alaska.
▶ 0:39:23We see this dynamic more than almost anywhere else. We have more coastline than the rest of the country combined. Our economy and communities depend on responsible access to marine and coastal resources. And yet we've seen essential projects like energy development, port construction and even fishery operations held up not because of clear science, but because of uncertainty and subjective interpretation.
▶ 0:39:50This draft aims to bring clarity, objectivity and balance back into the implementation of the mpa. It focuses on updating key definitions like harassment and negligible impact, so that we're regulating based on real, measurable effects, not hypothetical ones.
▶ 0:40:07It puts firm, predictable timelines on incidental take authorizations so that projects aren't left in bureaucratic limbo, and it makes sure that decisions are based on the best available science, not assumptions or exceptionally conservative modeling. Let's be very clear. This is a discussion draft, not a final bill. I fully expect and welcome further development, further input, and further collaboration. I'm committed to working with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to make these reforms common sense and bipartisan.
▶ 0:40:36I believe that's possible because the issues this bill seeks to address aren't partizan. They're practical. The tension between marine mammal protection and human activity exists in red states and blue states alike, and our coastal communities deserve solutions that are workable, transparent and fair. I'm also committed to engaging directly with with stakeholders, tribes, coastal communities, fishing groups, developers, subsistence hunters, scientists, and anyone else impacted by how the mpa is implemented.
▶ 0:41:06My goal is simple I want a bill that protects marine mammals and also works for the people who live and work alongside them, especially in alaska. This is a conversation I've been having for a long time, and I'm glad we're finally starting it in this forum. I hope this subcommittee sees today's hearing as the beginning of a constructive, good faith process to modernize a law that matters deeply to so many of our constituents. So, again, thank you to the committee for advancing this discussion.
▶ 0:41:34I look forward to refining the draft in the weeks and months ahead, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to help lead that effort. Thank you. And I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. begich. And before we move on to the next panel, I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the hearing record a news article from northwest sportsman magazine entitled washington lawmakers introduce bill to ask D.C. for marine mammal act modification.
▶ 0:41:58This article highlights house joint memorial uh 404, introduced in the washington state legislature on a bipartisan basis, and which advocates for additional reform to the marine mammal protection act. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask that joint house joint memorial 4004, which is cosponsored by 12 republicans and five democrats, be entered into the record.
▶ 0:42:23The joint memorial states that the memorial list respectfully pray that congress modify the marine mammal protection act to allow greater flexibility for states and tribes to use adaptive management tools for pinniped predators of endangered salmon, without objection, so ordered. I want to thank all of the members for being here today and providing your testimony. I am now going to introduce the second panel. Mr.
▶ 0:42:50Jay shirley, the principal deputy director and acting director at the us fish and wildlife service in washington, dc. Under committee rules, you must limit your oral statement to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone and we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of the five minutes, the light will turn red.
▶ 0:43:20And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I now recognize Mr. shirley for five minutes. >> thank you. >> good afternoon. >> chair hagerman. >> ranking member hoyle. >> and members of the subcommittee. My name is jay shirley, and I am the principal deputy director, serving as the acting director for the us fish and wildlife service.
▶ 0:43:42Thank you for the opportunity, opportunity to provide testimony on four bills before the subcommittee today. I spent 22 years working for the state of utah as a law enforcement officer and then as director of the division of wildlife resources. I'm excited to bring that experience and perspective to dc in advance of the mission of the service.
▶ 0:44:04The administration is focused on streamlining regulations and making sure they work for the american people. The legislation before the subcommittee today would amend the endangered species act, marine mammal protection act, and sikes act. The service appreciates the sponsors and subcommittees focus on these topics, and we look forward to working with you on them. The service supports the goals of h.r.
▶ 0:44:31180, the endangered species transparency and reasonableness act of 2025. We share the sponsor's interest in transparency and close collaboration with state, tribal, and local partners. H.r. 180 would amend the endangered species act in multiple ways, including changing scientific data processes, publishing esa litigation data, and modifying funding sources for litigation costs.
▶ 0:44:59We would welcome the opportunity to work with the sponsor and subcommittee to improve implementation of the legislation. H.r. 180 would direct the secretary to automatically treat data provided by states, tribes, and counties as the best scientific and commercial data available. Our work with these partners is essential.
▶ 0:45:18The service also considers carefully considers all data we receive, the service notes we lack the legal expertise and capacity to lead an extensive litigation database as the bill directs. In addition, we would recommend that esa litigate related litigation costs continue to be awarded from the judgment fund rather than appropriations, and recommend capping litigation fees. H.r.
▶ 0:45:454033, the sturgeon conservation and sustainability act of 2025 would exempt farmed sturgeon and captivity from certain sections of the esa. The service supports this bill and the sponsors efforts to address the challenging regulatory situation for domestic aquaculture producers.
▶ 0:46:05We would welcome the opportunity to work with the sponsor and subcommittee to address potential enforceability issues and ensure this legislation can be implemented as intended. Foreign sturgeon species face numerous threats in their native range countries, including habitat loss, poaching, and wildlife trafficking. However, the service recognizes the regulatory challenges the sturgeon aquaculture industry is facing.
▶ 0:46:34Appropriate mitigation and enhancement of the species in the wild can be nearly impossible to fulfill internationally, h.r. 433 would apply would broadly apply to all farmed sturgeon, not just foreign species, which are required to have appropriate provenance paperwork. This the discussion draft amending the marine mammal protection act, would amend the act in in multiple ways.
▶ 0:46:58The service appreciates the sponsor's work on marine mammals issues and intent to modernize the mpa. We would welcome the opportunity to work with the sponsor and subcommittee to help address implementation challenges with the draft legislation. The discussion draft includes a number of changes to definitions, incidental take, timelines, consultations, and other aspects of the mpa.
▶ 0:47:23We'd be glad to work with the sponsor and subcommittee and provide technical feedback on this language. H.r. 4293 amends the sikes act to clarify that the department of defense may enter into cooperative and interagency agreements, including with the service to manage lands off of installation property for military or state owned national guard activities and operations. The service supports h.r.
▶ 0:47:504293 and the additional clarification it provides. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I look forward to working with the subcommittee in my new capacity with the service. I would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have. >> all right. Well, thank you very much. And now you will have that opportunity. Beginning of Mr. lamalfa for five minutes. >> thank you. Sir. Um, Mr. shirley, welcome. Thanks for being with us today.
▶ 0:48:19And, um, appreciate your work under current essa framework. Um, you know, many of us have a lot of frustration with the frivolous lawsuits that are brought to block pretty much any project from happening.
▶ 0:48:35I base a lot of that on forestry, and how many millions of acres have to go up in smoke every year, and the impairment of getting onto the lands to do things, you know, so-called roadless areas or even existing roads that have to go through, uh, a whole bunch of nepa process in order to, uh, have them repaired and upgraded, etc.
▶ 0:48:57So, um, when we're talking about, uh, you know, in your, in your scope of work, how much of these frivolous lawsuits that have, um, have been a just a deterrent to doing it for the service's ability to, in this case, delist species that we would see as probably recovered. >> thank you, representative, for that question.
▶ 0:49:23As as mentioned, I, I agree with you that we do have the citizen suit provision in esa that does lead to a lot of litigation work. And yes, there there has definitely been circumstances and continues to be that the that litigation work can stymie the efforts of us trying to develop plans and, and work on recovery efforts.
▶ 0:49:50And so we would welcome any feedback that the committee would have for us there. >> all right. Um, we need some we need some help with some of the things that are going on, like in my own district and other parts of western states, the, uh, litigation that, uh, is surrounding the gray wolf population right now. They're they've been ongoing introducing more gray wolves into northern california and some of our surrounding areas. And, uh, it really needs to be delisted.
▶ 0:50:20There's tens of thousands of these wolves in north america. And for some reason, they seem to believe it has to be in every county in north america. Otherwise it's going to be seen as endangered in that part of the area. Can can you make any logic out of that with, uh, how can something be plentiful in one part of the country and indeed have the population to carry on into perpetuity, but seen as endangered just because of the geography?
▶ 0:50:45And they also have plans of introducing about a thousand grizzly, grizzly bears into california if they can get that passed muster. What do you think of that? >> thank you. Wow. Those are questions that I'm I'm somewhat familiar with coming from a state agency in the west, from the utah division of wildlife resources, and having gray wolf always be something that we've been dealing with.
▶ 0:51:09And the what you bring up there with the concerns of how esa is being used, we need to, you know, the service wants to see gray wolves delisted. And we're still appealing that 2022 decision and are working in that direction. We want the science to govern that delisting and have been working towards that.
▶ 0:51:33And all the, you know, the work that goes behind the scenes and both grizzly bears and wolves is extensive. And state management of those species really needs to occur at a level for the species protection moving forward. That's the goals of esa, is to protect those species and be able to turn over management to states to be able to run with recovery. >> certainly, then it's weaponized into something to stop a lot of other things to do. You see.
▶ 0:52:02Do you see the service planning to actually recommend delisting. >> on wolves? We're going to follow the science there. And yes, we're we're recommending delisting and currently, uh, supporting the appeal process from the courts. >> is there a solid recovery number, you know, some sort of benchmark for the population? And does it have to be applied towards every county in the us, or can it be seen cumulatively in north america? >> yeah, there.
▶ 0:52:31As far as the recovery goals of the plan, there's always a population number attributed to that. What those are I'm not I'm would need to get back to you on but we you know again with wolves in particular it's one of the, one of the ones that the service has identified should be delisted and we're working towards that. >> okay. So just pulling a number out of there if, if he reached a particular number, a target, say 20,000 wolves in north america, then maybe we would be there.
▶ 0:53:02>> yeah. The one the additional information I would provide there is under esa besides just population goal, you're always looking at critical habitat trends, all the other factors that would go into making sure that that species is fully recovered. And we're following the science. >> well, it's certainly recovering and devouring just about everything in the northeast part of my district as far as wildlife as well as the cattle population.
▶ 0:53:26So, uh, much needs to be done on rectifying this and identifying that it is indeed needs to be delisted and will be just fine in north america, I yield back. Thank you. >> your time is expired, Mr. hoffman. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, Mr. shirley, welcome. Um, good to meet you in.
▶ 0:53:43Uh, I want to ask you about how doge and its, uh, overhaul of the federal government, um, which has driven thousands of experienced public servants, uh, out of service, either laid off or sidelined. I'm sure it's had a major effect on your agency. Uh, and we see in just about every bill before us here today, a whole bunch of new things that would be asked of you and your colleagues at the fish and wildlife service.
▶ 0:54:13Uh, automatic approvals of permitting, uh, tighter deadlines, major new administrative responsibilities. Uh, your core mission is to protect fish and wildlife, to manage refuges, to do a whole bunch of things. But it is not to drop everything and do all of this new stuff so that some people can get maybe permits faster.
▶ 0:54:34Um, so I want to just ask you, from the perspective of the fish and wildlife service's current capacity, how do these legislative changes affect your ability to fulfill your actual conservation mission? >> thank you. Representative. That's a great question. I've been out here for five weeks so far, so I'm pretty new to this. But you bring up mission and that that hits to the heart, right?
▶ 0:55:01The very first statement in the mission of the fish and wildlife service is we do this with others. And then it goes on to say what it is. And then it says, for the benefit of the american people. And as I look at some of what you, you mentioned of employees that have taken the fork in the road or have taken a deferred retirement option, I come from a place of state government where I always felt like we were pretty lean
▶ 0:55:32And mean, and having to figure out ways, new ways, innovative ways, new places we could use technology, and to be able to further the mission of what we're trying to do. And I think with the service in particular, we're we're in a place that we have always needed our partners and will continue to need our partners, and that seems like a great place to be moving forward to me in. >> plenty of capacity to do all this new stuff.
▶ 0:56:01Or does this put you in a bind? >> yeah, I think that what we're looking at is being able to streamline some of those processes, make them more effective, use technology to be able to help us through some of those processes, as well as getting the workforce in a place where we are communicating. I don't. >> want to I don't want to talk about getting there. I'm going to talk. I want to ask about right now.
▶ 0:56:26I mean, you're you're reeling here from thousands and thousands of dedicated career staffers that have just left and they haven't been replaced. Do you have the capacity to do all the stuff these bills are asking you to do right now? >> it's an interesting perspective because having not been there before and coming in six weeks ago and seeing the work that's being done on the ground, we're just working on mission critical situations that we can continue to get done, and leaning on our partners and leaning. >> in, you don't see a problem.
▶ 0:56:57>> I think that moving forward, we're going to be in a much better place of how we're handling. >> okay, let's talk about the, um, concerts conservation standard reflected here. Uh, the sea otter is a good example. Plays a crucial role as a keystone species in preventing kelp forests collapse in my district, the discussion draft before us would lower conservation goals from maintaining healthy, functioning populations to just bare survival. Just don't let it go extinct.
▶ 0:57:26Um, why does the fish and wildlife service believe it's important to maintain sea otter populations at a more meaningful and more ecologically meaningful level than that? If that is, in fact, your view, my assumption is that you think we need to do better because you're in charge of the fish and wildlife service of the united states. So I would hope that's your position. But I want to ask you. >> yeah, thanks for that question. Again. All the discussion with mpa has been enlightening to me for sure.
▶ 0:57:56Coming from a very desert state and being able to really dive in and look at this situation and everything that we're dealing with and the streamlining of processes that you see in there. I think that it sounds like from what I. >> this isn't about process. This is about the conservation standard. This is are we managing the sea otter to just sort of keep it alive and not go extinct? Or are we managing to a more meaningful ecological standard? >> yeah. >> it's a policy question. >> sure.
▶ 0:58:24I believe that we are always working towards having the strongest, most robust populations and stocks, if you will, of marine mammals. >> so will you agree with me at least, that lowering that standard to minimal triage is a bad thing for the mission of your of your agency.
▶ 0:58:43>> I think when you mention minimal standard, I think that most of what we have tried to deal with is that we want to get in a place where our partners, everyone just loves, loves sea otter populations, and we're willing to work to make sure they're successful. >> it doesn't really answer my question. >> time is expired, Mr. webster. Yeah. >> thank you. >> Mr. webster. >> yes. >> thank you. Thank you so much.
▶ 0:59:13I yield my time to Mr. goodwin. >> Mr. >> across the aisle. >> right here. Thank you. >> I'm going. >> to. >> I'm going. >> to use my five and. >> then take. >> Mr. webster's. >> five, if. >> that's all right. Mr. >> very well, I'll start with my, uh, opening statement, Mr. shirley, so. >> you can relax for a little bit. Thank you.
▶ 0:59:40Um, the marine mammal protection act has a tremendous impact on the lives and livelihoods of the thousands of maine lobstermen and fishermen. I have the privilege to represent. I have serious concerns with the mpa, and I believe that changes need to be made to the law to ensure it does not end up shutting down entire fisheries in the communities that they support. Simply put, the federal government should not be in the business of destroying the livelihoods of hard working americans based on assumptions that are not firmly grounded in sound data.
▶ 1:00:09There was only three years ago that maine's lobster industry was on the verge of shutting down because of a regulatory process that was based on biased modeling, that relied heavily on hypothetical threats posed to the right whales by the lobster fishery. That's why congress enacted a moratorium on these regulations until 2028, coupled with additional funding to support additional right whale research.
▶ 1:00:36However, based on my conversations with fishermen, more time is going to be needed to incorporate that research and data collected during this pause before we move to future right rail regulations. Now, it remains the case that maine lobstermen don't pose an existential threat to the north atlantic right whale. In the decades since, congress and the government has begun tracking the cause of marine mammal serious injury and mortality.
▶ 1:01:04There has only been one instance where maine lobster gear has been attributed to a right whale death, even though that linkage remains contested and in question, maine lobstermen have a proven track record of leading the way when it comes to ocean resource conservation and mitigating risk to whale entanglements, including the adoption of weak links and gear marking. I want to point out that this draft bill from Mr.
▶ 1:01:31Begich makes clear that, as congress has always intended, mpa decisions should be based on the best available data without application of what is known as the precautionary principle. This would align with the D.C. circuit court's opinion in maine lobstermen's association versus nmfs with the court held that nmfs is decision to indulge in worst case scenarios and use pessimistic values in order to give the benefit of the doubt to the species was not just wrong, but egregiously wrong, the court
▶ 1:02:01Explained. When the congress wants an agency to apply the precautionary principle, it says so. The precautionary principle taken seriously, can multiply an agency's power over the economy and allow an agency to regulate or veto activities, even if it cannot be shown those activities are likely to produce significant harms when the service applies a substantial presumption to distort the analysis, the public can have no confidence that economic dislocation is needed to protect a species and is not the result
▶ 1:02:32Of speculation or surmise by overly zealous agency officials. This reasoning would apply equally to the mpa. One might think, since there's no language in the law directing nmfs to use the precautionary principle.
▶ 1:02:46I think a very important point here that we have been coming back to again and again and again, not just before the regulatory pause that congress put in place in 2022, but in the last several months, is that nmfs and fishermen need more time, in part because the court order forced regulatory regulators to go back to the drawing board.
▶ 1:03:10The atlantic large whale take reduction team won't hold its first meeting on new regulations until 2026, so if the moratorium expires in 2028, lobstermen will have insufficient time to work in a good faith way to plan for new regulations and may well find themselves unable to comply and thereby forced to stop fishing entirely. So to close with my.
▶ 1:03:36First five minutes here, um, I would ask unanimous consent to submit into the record a letter from fishermen on both coasts in support of the mpa discussion. Draft signatories of the letter include constituents from the maine lobstering union, maine lobster association, new england's fishermen's stewardship association and downeast lobstermen's association. If I could have that read into the record. >> without objection, so ordered. >> at that point, I would yield back the rest of Mr.
▶ 1:04:06Webster's time. Thank you. >> I now recognize Mr. golden for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you very much, madam chair, and thanks for holding the hearing. Um, I guess, Mr. shirley, I want to hear your thoughts on the court's opinion as it related to maine lobstermen association versus nmfs. Of course, this was having to do with the esa.
▶ 1:04:35Um, but specifically where they ruled that the precautionary principle was not really an authority given to nmfs under the esa. Um, how is nmfs now looking at that in light of the mpa, given that there's no language, statutory language that would ask you to apply that, in fact, it specifically requires that the agency objectively apply statutory standards based on the
▶ 1:05:05Best available data. >> thank you. Representative. Thank you for that question. I for sure don't want to speak for the national marine fisheries service in regards to that question, but, you know, a lot of it still ties to the act itself.
▶ 1:05:23And so, uh, in not speaking to their side of that, I would just say that, you know, the as we dive in again in a discussion draft of what this looks like, there's a lot that we should consider as a committee together to make sure that we're meeting the conservation goals of those marine mammals and that we're able to work together with industry and partners to be able to further that work.
▶ 1:05:49And I think that falls in line with administration's priorities as well as what the service wants to do. We want win win situations. >> thank you. Uh, originally, the maine delegation was seeking ten years of relief when congress enacted the moratorium back in 2022. Um, there was some pushback there. We ended up with with six.
▶ 1:06:13So our feeling that that is going to create a pretty condensed timeline on the backside, particularly because part of that moratorium provided money to the federal government here to go out and try and get more accurate data, rather than relying on assumptions about whale activities and also impact with with fishing gear or fishing practices. Um, do you have any concerns about what that timeline is going to look like, given the fact that we didn't get the full ten, but rather only six?
▶ 1:06:42Uh, in what could be a pretty condensed timeline with the trt process, which is waiting and starting late, specifically because it's waiting for that new data in the money to go out and get that data to, to be put to good use. I think failure, you know, to, to allow for a, a good runway here means that money spent in the collection of that data will be rather useless. >> thank you. That's a great question.
▶ 1:07:09And what I would ask to be able to be done is let me get with nymphs and get some background on the information and how the decisions were made. And then we can follow up and get back to you on that, if that's okay. >> I would appreciate that very much.
▶ 1:07:23It would be, you know, my hope that they would take the opportunity, given the funding from congress and the clear mandate here, uh, with both the moratorium and the money to go out and get the information that that they would want to make sure that it's done right, get it right this time and see that the process is fair. Um, is going to make, you know, use of the very best as the laws instruct the best available data, like, let's go out and get it and not rely on this modeling and the absence of it.
▶ 1:07:54>> absolutely. Thank you. >> thank you. I yield back my time. >> thank you. I now recognize Mr. mcclintock for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chairman. Mr. shirley, first I want to thank you so much for the, uh, assistance of the us fish and wildlife service on the technical aspects of this bill. Uh, it's been a pleasure working with you and look forward to continuing that. Um, with respect to, um, h.r. 180, we've heard two principal objections from the left.
▶ 1:08:18Uh, the first is that publishing data on the internet so the public can actually see it. And again, this is critical data, uh, that that affects the lives and livelihoods, uh, sometimes of thousands, if not tens of thousands of people at a time. Um, so the public can actually see it and critique it. Um, all of that would be onerous.
▶ 1:08:41Now, since your agency, um, would be, um, responsible for publishing it. Let me ask you directly, is publishing this data going to be onerous, uh, that you've data that you've already received and you've already processed? Is that going to be onerous to your agency? >> thank you, representative, for that question. I, uh, again, we support the intent of the bill and want to make sure that that is known.
▶ 1:09:09And as far as your question related to the data itself, I believe we're publishing the service is publishing a lot of that data. Data makes it available. There are certain aspects of that that we need to be, in my opinion, and that we need to be careful. We don't want to put out species specific data. We don't want to put out location data for some of those species, as it could lead to different wildlife trafficking or other concerns.
▶ 1:09:39But I think, generally speaking, we're putting out most of that data that we used to come up with, you know, species status assessments and different things like that. So again, working on the side of being transparent and how those decisions are made are somewhere we want to be. >> I guess that's the principal question. Do we want to err on the side of transparency or on the side of secrecy?
▶ 1:10:03>> yeah, erring on the side of transparency is where we'd like to be, and making sure that we're not putting our state partners or anyone else in weird situations. I know the bill has some exemptions of, uh, data that could be used in state circumstances. >> what advantages might there be from inviting more eyes to have on this data and more minds evaluating it? >> sure. Thanks for that question. Uh, again, we love the idea of the involvement.
▶ 1:10:33We need our state partners. We need our tribal partners. We need our local governments to be involved in those decisions from the ground all the way through the process. And I think there's a lot of success stories to lean on. And then there's places where I, I guarantee that we can do better. And that's what would. >> you say, just generally speaking, is science better served by secrecy or by accessibility? >> yeah. No doubt we want to be able to share that data.
▶ 1:10:59And the best science is what we're looking for and how we're trying to move forward. >> and the best way to evaluate that science is to have the most possible minds, uh, evaluating it with, am I correct? >> yeah, I think that's what we're we're always attempting to do. >> the other objection we hear is that we shouldn't consider data that's generated by state or local agencies, because they might get it wrong. Well, is it conceivable that they might also get it right? >> yes, absolutely.
▶ 1:11:28Again, I come from a state agency that's been involved in that and been involved in esa related stuff where you you know that your data is good and you want it to be involved, you want it to be part of the process and considered.
▶ 1:11:43I think the service has always done a good job at considering all that data and making sure, you know, you you mentioned that we again, we support the intent there, and we want to make sure that we're getting to a place where the best data is, is utilized. >> and how about the flip side of that? Have there been many instances where the federal government has gotten it wrong? >> uh, I would be remiss to try to speak to that, I think.
▶ 1:12:12I can't think of any specific situations right now. >> we've had a great deal cited to this committee over the years, and it's in our reports. Um. Uh, the, um, the final question I would have is should we dismiss submissions just because they weren't invented here?
▶ 1:12:35>> I again, I keep falling back to the services, is trying to make those decisions based on the best available data that we have and getting that in-house, whatever means necessary, and trying to be as transparent as possible is where we want to be and where we want to. >> where we need to be. And that's the purpose of the bill. Thank you very much for your testimony and your and your assistance in drafting it. >> thank you, Mr. mcclintock. The chair now recognizes miss elfreth for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair. Mr. shirley, welcome to washington.
▶ 1:13:06I'm sorry we haven't had a chance to sit down yet, but, um, you might have heard I'm a bit of a broken record when it comes to civil servants in this country. I represent 44,000 of them in my district alone. Um, I've questioned your teammates as they've sat in front of this, this hearing room before about the 400 fish and wildlife civil servants who were summarily fired in february 2000. Additional and interior fired, and the closing of 150 field offices.
▶ 1:13:34You said in your opening remarks, or I'm sorry, in response to the ranking member, that the partnership and the service and the american people are kind of first and foremost in your mission. So I want to just follow up on the ranking members questions about about how I had a professor in college who used to circle whole paragraphs in our papers and. Right, okay. But how I'm very interested. I want to hear about the fate of these 2400 employees and how you're going to actually achieve your mission. But but the how are you going to achieve your current mission?
▶ 1:14:03And then how are you intending to implement all the bills that we're talking about today on a skeleton crew? Can you please enlighten me? >> yeah, thank you for that question. And I appreciate the chance to respond here. Uh, again, I mentioned that I come from a state agency. I've been I've been here for five weeks or so. So my experience inside the federal system is, is daunting for sure.
▶ 1:14:30And as you bring up the employees that have left the service in one form or fashion, that was by voluntary reasons why they left. And on the, on our, you know, we've worked hard to make sure that our seasonal employee count is typically normally where it is. And so we're getting the work done there.
▶ 1:14:52And so really from my chair and what I see is we have a very dedicated that's something that had that's been the fresh thing, if you will, of coming out here to dc and my limited experience in working with the fish and wildlife service in utah was with a very few individuals and coming out here and just starting to be part of the team, they want the same things that the american public does.
▶ 1:15:17They want to do their jobs well, and the direction that we try to give them is to work on mission critical circumstances that we're using innovation and technology to try to streamline processes and work through some of that.
▶ 1:15:31Again, you mentioned the employees that may have left us and the experience that they likely left with, and that gives us an opportunity to really look at how we do business and look at ways that we can be more efficient and streamline and still get mission critical work done, and do that for the american people, as well as, uh, focusing on the priorities of the service. >> I hear a lot of mission critical.
▶ 1:16:00I'm asking for specifics. I appreciate you've been here for five weeks. You also knew you were coming here today. I assumed you were prepared in some form or fashion specific to this question. It's not just my concerns. You're going to hear a lot of it on this side of the dais. So again, specific ways that you're going to be able to operate at least 400 people down. And I would I would push back that they were not all voluntarily separated from government. And those remaining, I would also assert, survive the doj's guillotine.
▶ 1:16:30So I don't want to sit here and pretend like everything is hunky dory, because it's very clearly not. But my chief concern is how you're going to continue a level of service that taxpayers expect. While, as the ranking member said, ensuring the conservation of our natural resources. The specifics. >> yeah, thank thank you.
▶ 1:16:49And I'm doing my best to try to answer that with specifics, because at my level, where we are getting where we're assigned tasks and trying to make sure that we're not having things drop off, that's probably been regardless of employee numbers.
▶ 1:17:06So we're just trying to focus on what the task ahead of us is, making sure that our employees are taken care of, and that the work that we're doing is being is how we've always tried to operate. And that's putting the best product on the ground and the best people doing it. >> okay. I again want to extend a warm welcome. I assume you're despite my line of questioning, you're going to come back to this committee.
▶ 1:17:31I would like to make sure that when we have a second conversation, a second bite at the apple, we have a little more of a strategic plan. Um, because if you're asking us to trust that you can still implement your mission in addition to the major policy changes that this committee is considering, we actually have a strategic, thoughtful conversation about that. And with that, I yield back. Thank you, madam chair. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes herself for five minutes of questions. Mr.
▶ 1:18:00Shirley, we've heard from numerous stakeholders over the last few months that the marine mammal protection act needs, desperately needs reform. What do you think is the most important reform we could make to the mpa? >> thank you. I appreciate that question. And again, the discussion draft that's being looked at and all that that entails, I've been able to take a deep dive into that, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so.
▶ 1:18:29This is a very, as has been stated by everyone, a very important act, uh, has led efforts for over 50 years on how we're going to do that. And I think as I read the bill, having some flexibility built in there on how the service can work with partners and work with industry to be able to conserve marine mammal populations and continue to thrive honestly. And how we do that is, is the part that I think we can continue to work on. >> okay.
▶ 1:18:58Uh, one of the issues that we continually hear about is unnecessarily unnecessary delay in the issuance of incidental take regulations or incidental harassment authorizations. How important is it for this process to work in a timely manner? >> yeah. Again, as has been mentioned, the fish and wildlife service does not want to be the reason why projects are being held up or things are not moving forward or communities are struggling.
▶ 1:19:25We need to make sure that we do our job and make sure that it's done effectively and do it in a timely manner, and I think that's all part of some of what we can be looking at in this draft. >> so over the last couple of years of being in congress, working on grizzly delisting, primarily, one of the things that has struck me is that a lot of people do not understand how the endangered species act, or even the mpa actually work, and especially with the endangered species act, for example, with
▶ 1:19:56The grizzly bear recovery, they were listed as threatened in 1975. Recovery goal was around 500 bears. We met that almost three decades ago. Uh, we have over 1100 bears. Yellow. The greater yellowstone ecosystem is actually saturated with bears. According to the previous administration's fish and wildlife service, they've moved well beyond their historical range, uh, creating numerous problems in wyoming, montana and idaho.
▶ 1:20:23And one of the reasons that I give a little bit of this background is the state of wyoming has spent over $1 million on grizzly bear recovery, whereas the fish and wildlife service, in contrast, has spent perhaps thousands on recovery.
▶ 1:20:37The state of wyoming has over nine individuals in the game and fish department dedicated specifically to grizzly bear recovery and protection, um, which demonstrates that it's typically the states that are actually managing this wildlife and protecting this these, these wildlife species and populations. We don't have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of fish and wildlife service folks out on the ground in wyoming or nebraska or montana or colorado or utah. It's actually the state agencies like where you came from.
▶ 1:21:06You serve for decades as a state wildlife manager. And isn't it true that states have a trust responsibility, actually an actual trust responsibility to effectively manage wildlife for future generation, which includes providing accurate and transparent data related to the health of wildlife populations? Isn't that correct? >> yes, that's absolutely correct.
▶ 1:21:29>> and would you agree with me that in terms of wildlife management, it is typically the states, even when we're dealing with an endangered or threatened species, that takes the primary role in making sure we're protecting those species? >> yeah. Again, as you mentioned, my experience there. And again, the service in my role in utah has been a great contributing partner. But bottom line is the work is landing at the state level to get those things done.
▶ 1:21:54And we've had good relationships there and been able to get things done, and that's been important. But we also need to be cognizant of how the act is used and that we're when we meet recovery goals or come up with plans or work with our constituents, we need to be fair to that process and make sure it's equitable in what we're asking them to do, as well as we're going to hold up our part of the bargain there.
▶ 1:22:21>> well, I was I assume that you have had the opportunity to actually work on, uh, certain wildlife management plans in your career. And in doing so, you developed those your office developed those to make sure that you could protect a recovered population of whatever that species might be. Is that fair? >> yeah, absolutely. We in utah itself, there's a virgin river recovery program. There's a june sucker recovery program. There's a utah prairie recovery prairie dog, not prairie itself, the prairie dog recovery program.
▶ 1:22:52And all those are those are state of utah employees that are working on the ground to make those. >> so with that in mind, shouldn't congress in the service ensure that the states, as well as tribes and local governments, are included at all stages of the esa decision, the decision making process? >> yes, I think that's the goal. >> all right. Thank you very much for that. And with that, I'm going to call on miss reavis for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, madam chair, for recognizing me. And thank. >> you.
▶ 1:23:22>> um, deputy director shirley, for joining us today. Uh, the fish and wildlife service plays an instrumental role in protecting our wildlife. >> especially marine mammals. >> the california coast is. One of the most majestic coastlines in the world and is home to various endangered marine mammals, including the california sea lion, sea otters, orcas and dolphins.
▶ 1:23:46Um, you manage the hunting and engagement of marine mammals through permits and provide financial assistance to organizations to help marine mammals that are stranded. Congress and the fish and wildlife service have a responsibility to ensure that we protect these marine mammals, and that they are here for generations to enjoy. So strengthening the marine mammals protection act helps us achieve this goal.
▶ 1:24:12Uh, the other side of the aisle wants to weaken these protections and endanger california's marine wildlife. In california, organizations like the monterey bay aquarium foundation and the marine mammal care center are leaders in marine wildlife conservation. These organizations are recipients of the john h.
▶ 1:24:35Prescott marine mammal rescue and response grant program, which allows organizations to provide care and emergency assistance to marine mammals. Uh, Mr. shirley, can you speak about the importance of the john h. Prescott marine mammal rescue and response grant program? And will you commit to preserving this program? >> thank you for that question. And this is the first I've heard of that grant program, to be honest with you.
▶ 1:25:04So I will look into it and get back with you. >> so okay, but do you believe that a program like this should exist? >> yeah. Again, anytime we're able to bring in partners to help us with the critical work. Yeah, it we should be doing so. >> okay. Because these organizations, like the ones I mentioned in california. Are partners. Um, for. >> um. >> you and. >> will help.
▶ 1:25:33>> with, um, with marine mammals. >> great. >> thank you. >> um, can you speak about the importance of nepa and the endangered species act review processes and the need to ensure that we are protecting marine mammals from harmful activities? >> yeah, thanks for that question.
▶ 1:25:51So one thing I, I think is can be related to this question in particular is how do we how do we gain support under essa, mpa all the processes that we have to do? My experience says we bring in partners, we have people involved. We find win win situations and solutions.
▶ 1:26:14And so I think when we start specifically talking, uh, again, draft discussion of mpa or whether it's essa, I come from a place where building those wanting people to be involved with this because they can see that they can both meet the needs of the act themselves and can serve, whether it's marine mammals or some other type of endangered species, and be able to move forward again, I
▶ 1:26:45For me it boils down to looking at those processes and make sure that we can streamline those so they're effective and efficient. And we're talking about processes. >> will you also. >> commit your department to not cutting any corners as you conduct. >> nepa. >> um, and essa reviews. >> so what I would always commit to is that we're committed to finding the best solution to get to where we need to be, and if that is evaluating each process along the way and working inside that. I mean, the law is law.
▶ 1:27:14We will always follow the law, but making sure that how we do that in the most effective and efficient manner is seems most important. >> um, you know, I. >> these issues are important, um, for me because constituents in my district use california's coastline and beaches as a place. >> of. >> refuge from the heat. >> um, that. We have a lot of. >> extreme heat weather events. >> in. My part.
▶ 1:27:42>> of the district in los angeles. Um, on a summer weekend, we. >> see. >> you know, thousands of families on the beach where they're able to view dolphins and whales, um, from a distance along the coastline. Um, you know, many kids don't have access to the beach, and there are programs that will take, um, families from underserved communities to our coasts.
▶ 1:28:04Um, and, you know, I want to make sure that they're able to continue to learn on the importance, um, and the vital role that marine mammals. Have on our biodiversity. Um. Thank you. And I yield back. Thank you. And I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter dated may 16th, 2025, from the california coast crab association, which supports california's dungeness crab fishery.
▶ 1:28:34The letter expressed support for president trump's executive order restoring american seafood competitiveness. The letter expressed hope that the trump administration would help bring some common sense to the state of california. Relief. Federal regulatory burdens, such as by delisting west coast humpback whales and restore hope that is all but lost in many small fishing communities along the california coast. Without objection, so ordered. The chair now calls upon Mr.
▶ 1:29:02Mcdowell for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair. And thank you, Mr. shirley, for being here to testify before the committee today. Fishing and hunting have long been vital pillars of north carolina's economy and our heritage and providing good paying jobs, supporting rural communities and fueling billions of dollars in economic activity.
▶ 1:29:26But today, hard working fishermen and hunters face growing obstacles from excessive, expensive regulations that are imposed by federal laws like the endangered species act and like the marine mammal protection act. And too often they get in the way of common sense management, and they threaten the livelihoods of those who rely on the great outdoors. And so, while conservation is important, uh, especially, um, to me.
▶ 1:29:55So I volunteered, uh, tons of time to work with groups like delta waterfowl and, um, ducks unlimited. And I believe in conservation, I truly do, but it must never come at the expense of our traditions or economic freedom, especially when hunters and fishermen have a better track record of conservation than maybe anyone.
▶ 1:30:18And so we must ensure that that these regulations are fair, that they are practical, and they don't undermine the ability of local groups to responsibly manage their own natural resources. And so overreach from federal agencies too often results in needless delays, job losses, restrictions that hurt both families and businesses.
▶ 1:30:41And so, uh, I hope that that you are committed and I am committed to focusing on reducing unnecessary regulatory burdens from the esa, from the mhm, the mpa, and streamlining permitting processes and giving fishermen and hunters the freedom to innovate and to grow and to enjoy the great outdoors.
▶ 1:31:02And so when we empower local stewards and when we respect proven conservation, the tools that we already know work, uh, like the pittman-robertson act, we can secure a thriving, sustainable outdoor economy that preserves our hunting, uh, our fishing and all of our traditions. And we want to do that for generations to come. And so I want to thank you for being here today to testify. I love the tie, uh, by the way.
▶ 1:31:30But, um, how do you believe that the threat of litigation impacts the service's decision making processes? >> thank you. If I can quickly respond to your your to your initial comments there. One of the coolest things I've got to do, if cool is here, um, was be with the secretary when he bought the first duck stamp of the year. I've been buying a duck stamp since I was 16.
▶ 1:31:54I've been hunting waterfowl since I was 12, and that's truly a success that I think points to what you're at. So hopefully everyone on this committee has a duck stamp or we'll get there soon. But, uh, because the program is amazing and what it's been able to do, and the other thing I'll mention is, uh, I went to roosevelt island over the weekend. Don't have a car out here. Right. So I just wing it by the train. And I went to roosevelt island.
▶ 1:32:22And again, it's just a constant reminder of how lucky we are to have the resources in this country and the and the role that hunters and anglers have played and paved the way for us to continue to have the resources that we do. And it takes it takes all of us. And whether you're engaged at a hunting or fishing level or a bird watching or whatever level it may be, but supporting our natural resources is where we need to be. I don't think that's me, but no.
▶ 1:32:54>> you're good. >> okay, so your your question on the litigation piece. It is it is very hard, I think for the service to, to work under a lot of that again is based on timeline and, and that's not new to uh, where we currently are. That's been an ongoing struggle for years and something that we need to figure out.
▶ 1:33:18>> does the service recognize that as written, the esa has turned into a money making mechanism for radical environmental groups that are hell bent on stopping anything from new infrastructure projects to military base operations to a laundry list of other things.
▶ 1:33:35>> again, the citizen suit that's involved in essa
▶ 1:34:37Is a place that we should be able to welcome that river. >> I realize you just got on the job, so I'm asking, uh, if you could provide our office with all that us fish and wildlife is doing to help the department of interior finish that study on time this year. Uh, the snail kite is one of our endangered species that's in that region. So you would probably be dealing with issues related to that. Um, uh, so will you commit to getting us all the information that you all are working on to keep this study going on time?
▶ 1:35:08>> yes, absolutely. >> thanks. You know, this is about clean water for our region, uh, which we're now the 20th largest metro area in the nation, uh, for recreational fishing is very popular in central florida. And we'll get to a little more of that in a second. Uh, as well as everglades restoration. Um, the, uh, protection of this river is critical, uh, as we see both, uh, the last administration and this current administration putting in hundreds of millions of dollars to help with the southern everglades. So this is absolutely a critical part of it.
▶ 1:35:37Uh, we saw also, uh, recently, a federal judge on april 11th, uh, put out an order about the protection of manatees and, uh, the indian river lagoon specifically to prevent a new septic tanks. Um, as you may know, there was a unusual mortality event that happened a few years ago. And we worked in a bipartisan fashion with our state partners to have, uh, feedings happening. And, uh, the population has been a little more stabilized.
▶ 1:36:07Um, but now, uh, we're in a july 17th moratorium just happened this last week. Um, banning, uh, any new septic tanks because of the nitrogen issue that's stifling the restoration that both federal and state officials are working on. Uh, and so the court order calls for a conservation plan that the state has to present and an incidental take permit that us fish and wildlife service is supposed to work on, uh, related to that order.
▶ 1:36:34I know, again, you said you're new on the job, but do you have any knowledge as to the status of that conservation plan or the incidental taking permit and the court order that's in place right now? >> yeah. Thank you. I don't I don't have any in-house knowledge there. I'm happy to follow up and make sure that we provide whatever information we have. And so you a status update. >> so you'll provide us with any information you've gotten about a submission of a conservation plan by florida.
▶ 1:37:01And then whatever response that us fish and wildlife is working on. Sure. Thank you. Uh, you know, we're all committed to protecting the florida manatee. We've seen it be a continue to be a bipartisan issue. Uh, and so you'll commit here today that us fish and wildlife plans to follow the court order, uh, as presented, even though you may appeal on on issues like that. >> yeah.
▶ 1:37:26I'm again, I'm not familiar with the specific circumstance, but we'll follow the law and make sure we get done what we're supposed to do. >> and, uh, I can't stress that while the manatee is a big part of this, this is about way more than just the manatee for our area. Uh, recreational fishing is a way of life for us, as is commercial fishing. Tourism is our top industry.
▶ 1:37:49People come to places like central florida and, uh, over to the coast of central florida, uh, to enjoy these amazing fishing grounds. And, uh, we have a lot of impairment in our waters. That is something that I know we've worked on, both with state officials and federal officials on.
▶ 1:38:10And so, even as you may hear about some of these species, like manatees and snail kites, just always remember this endangered species act and the mammal protection act and some of these others, they help bring the resources to our community to do a whole lot of other things, like protecting clean water, like protecting recreational fishing, uh, like making sure that tourism, our top industry, uh, is protected.
▶ 1:38:39So I know you all have zion park in utah back when you were in the state. Uh, so you get that tourism and conservation can be an important part of commercial activities in the state, correct? >> yes, absolutely. And I did my post legislative session vacation a couple years ago to the everglades in your state, uh, to decompress and look at birds and enjoy what florida has to offer. I do understand that. Thank you. >> well, then you know firsthand, Mr.
▶ 1:39:07Director, and I look forward to getting those submissions. And thanks for, uh, being responsive to my questions. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. begich for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair. Mr. shirley. Uh, alaska, 6600 mile coastline and vast marine ecosystems place us squarely at the intersection of conservation and development.
▶ 1:39:32But under the current marine mammal protection act projects crucial to alaska marine highway routes, harbor expansions and resource exploration are often paralyzed by vague terms like harassment and negligible impact. Can you walk us through how this discussion draft helps bring objectivity and clarity to those definitions, and how these changes will improve the speed and certainty of incidental take authorizations in places like alaska. >> thank you representative.
▶ 1:39:59And I'll also note that I have spent lots of time in your state. Was just there last month and we'll be back in september. And I have been to the end of the road at deadhorse before, and so I'm familiar with a lot of that coastline, uh, at least in my mind. And, and love the, the vastness of that.
▶ 1:40:22So again, mpa and, and what we're trying to do here from a very high level, for me, it is making sure that we're conserving marine mammals as well as being able to put us in a place where, I mean, absolutely, that's the goal of the service, is making sure those marine mammals are protected and being able to do so in a way that we're not stymieing further development or communities or whatever it may be, working with our partners to
▶ 1:40:52Find win win situations. >> uh, follow up question on that. Um, alaska's unique geography means that federal permitting delays don't just slow down projects, they stall lifelines for remote communities that rely on barges and ferries and seasonal construction windows. Too often, bureaucratic limbo under the mpa has held these activities hostage.
▶ 1:41:15How do the firm decision timelines in this discussion draft, especially the deemed approvals, provide needed accountability for federal agencies? And what additional tools might the us fish and wildlife service need to ensure timely processing? >> yeah, thank you for that question. As you as you mentioned, some of the bill discussion draft, talking about timelines of how that would work, that the service wants to be a part of the solution there.
▶ 1:41:45We need to also make sure that we're doing our best to meeting our deadlines and timelines and having involvement. And we need to be thinking outside the box of how we're able to do that. Again, we don't want to be the reason why we can't be protecting marine mammals and moving forward with projects. At the same time, I think that there's ways that that can be addressed and done, and we'll look forward to working and with with the with you and the subcommittee on finding best solutions moving forward there.
▶ 1:42:17>> thank you. One one final question. Uh, the mpa was passed in 1972, but the practical realities of operating in coastal alaska today, where marine mammal presence and human activity overlap require a regulatory framework that reflects modern science and data. We've heard concerns that overly precautionary principles have at times substituted for hard evidence.
▶ 1:42:37Does this legislation's requirement to use objective, best available scientific data without applying overly precautionary assumptions, better align the mpa with the realities on the ground? And how might that improve permitting outcomes in coastal alaska? >> yes, this is a great question and one that I've I've thought a lot about this and its applicability. If we were in utah today and having this hearing, we'd be having the same discussion about mule deer populations, if you will.
▶ 1:43:07And that's a constant in legislative hearings in utah and modeling that potentially takes place that by the state agency on how we get to specific numbers and collect our data. And it's always a conversation of how we do that. And again, I draw a parallel in thinking this is very similar in that the services is asked to perform a role there, and we need to make sure that our science is the best that we can come up with.
▶ 1:43:36And when you start talking models and modeling in the vastness of some of these marine mammals, it becomes very challenging and something that we need to be responsive to. >> thank you. And, uh, I'd just like to say, you know, it should be the objective of everyone in congress and everyone at the agency to seek hard data, to seek hard science, to make that science transparent so that we can make the best possible decisions with the information, uh, that we that we can gather and analyze.
▶ 1:44:04And I'm encouraged to see that we have bipartisan support. We heard from, uh, the representative from maine earlier, uh, talking about some of the challenges that that they have in in his district with the mpa and opportunities for us to work in a bipartisan fashion to improve the mpa and make it more effective for the populations that's attempting to protect, as well as responsive, uh, to the economic interests of the people of our nation. And with that, I yield back. >> thank you.
▶ 1:44:34The chair now calls on miss brownley for five minutes of questions. >> uh, thank you, madam chair, and welcome to washington. Uh, Mr. shirley, and thank you for being here to testify today. Um, as you mentioned, the fish and wildlife service is one of the three federal entities responsible for implementing the mpa. Mr. shirley, can you explain how your agency currently assesses marine mammal stocks under the mpa?
▶ 1:45:06>> yeah, that's that is a great question. And something I was trying to allude to in the prior questioning of how we collect that data. And again, very extensive when you're talking marine mammal stock and the service, the fish and wildlife service is in charge of ten of those stocks with the species under the act that we're, uh, have ultimate responsibility with. So most of the other stocks are all are all set in nymphs priorities there.
▶ 1:45:34So but the service we're dealing with polar bears, walrus, sea otter and manatee specifically. And inside that we have ten stocks that we're constantly trying to evaluate and make sure we have the best and most reliable data that we have. That takes a lot of work. And marine mammals are are one of those that we do.
▶ 1:45:57We constantly are trying to use models, the best models that we can find and available to make sure that we're getting the best estimates, if you will, of those populations. And it's hard to come up with a specific answer to your question as far as how we assess that. But it's no different than other species. And using those models is something we've done in the past.
▶ 1:46:25>> so and as you know, this discussion draft would raise the threshold for assessing the health of marine mammal stocks. Um, and in my opinion, effectively stripped protections from marine mammals when that higher data threshold isn't met.
▶ 1:46:43So does your agency have any estimate of how many marine mammal stocks lack the level of data that would be required under this reauthorization to continue receiving the same mpa protections? >> that is a great question, and one that I would ask if I could get back to you on the specific data there.
▶ 1:47:05I'm I'm not positiv, again with us that the bottom line with with all of the consideration here is our, our role and our goal of making sure that those populations are sound and that we're conserving those for future generations. >> uh, thank you for that. Um, you know, I'm a little concerned that, uh, this discussion draft, um, there wasn't really any serious consideration.
▶ 1:47:33And I'm worried, um, what the impacts would be on america's conservation framework, um, which is, uh, a particular shame as the mpa and endangered species act are regarded as the gold standards for conservation worldwide. So speaking of ssa, we dedicate quite a bit of time in this committee, uh, discussing this act.
▶ 1:47:57My colleagues across the aisle like to claim that the esa is failing and often point to the fact that only 3% of listed species have been successfully delisted, but they conveniently ignore a significant barrier. Congress has consistently underfunded the esa, making it harder for agencies to carry out the final stages of recovery.
▶ 1:48:22And yet, despite all that hand-wringing, this committee continues to entertain legislative proposals that would like this mpa draft, weaken proactive management and force more species into crisis before protection can kick in. So, Mr. shooli, would you agree that the lower thresholds in this mpa reauthorization discussion draft would lead to more marine mammals ultimately being listed under the esa?
▶ 1:48:55>> there's a lot wrapped into what you just said, and I, I appreciate the context of what it's and how you share it. Again, because I think there's some commonality amongst the committee, amongst the service, amongst the american people, that the last thing we want to do is put these species in peril or at risk. And I think we can find ways that that that doesn't happen. In fact, I know we can. We've been a nation of being able to do that.
▶ 1:49:23And that's what I hope we can continue to work on, is find common ground that we can continue to move forward with some of these species. >> well, thank you for that, and I appreciate it's your sincerity. It sounds like and I do um, it is very concerning.
▶ 1:49:41Um, again, because I think we're understaffed in terms of, uh, mpa and we know quite clearly that, uh, the endangered species act is also, um, uh. Underfunded as well in terms of its implementation. And so I don't want, you know, mammals to go from one place to the next place. And in either place, they're not fully protected. So that's my concern, and I appreciate that. I yield back, madam chair.
▶ 1:50:12>> yes. And the chair now recognizes Mr. representative babin for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair. Good afternoon. Uh, and ranking member connell, thank you for holding this legislative hearing. Uh, I. >> have a bill, h.r. 3007 063706. >> called the standards for understanding. >> source and habitat identification act, also known as. >> the sushi act. Uh, it.
▶ 1:50:39>> would task the national institute of standards and technology. >> uh, better known as nist, with developing a chemical test to identify the geographic origin of red snapper and tuna fish. Currently, nist scientists can chemically determine the geographic origin of various foods, including strawberries, beef, honey, and rice. Similar testing methods can also discern farm raised shrimp from those that are caught in the wild.
▶ 1:51:07The sushi act would help combat illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing activities better known as iuu. You, uh, that violate both national and international fishing regulations and place american fishermen at a distinct competitive disadvantage.
▶ 1:51:29Researchers in my state at texas a&m university in corpus christi estimate that poaching cost the us red snapper industry as much as $12 million per year. And that's just the impact of poaching on that one species. In fact, the united states coast guard believes the models used to calculate these losses significantly underestimate the magnitude of illegal operations.
▶ 1:51:54And, if successful, the novel methodologies developed by nist would equip law enforcement with the necessary tools to crack down on poaching in our coastal waters, and could be expanded to help combat iuu fishing and other species. And I would urge my colleagues on this subcommittee, both sides of the aisle, to support this bill, to crack down on the illegal exploitation of our domestic seafood industry. I yield back, madam chair.
▶ 1:52:24>> thank you, Mr. babin. The chair next represents or recognizes congressman wittman for five minutes of questions. >> well, thank you, madam chair. I appreciate the opportunity to speak, uh, as a co-lead for h.r. 4294, the mitigation action and watermen support, or better known as the act, with my friend from maryland, miss elfreth.
▶ 1:52:45Uh, this bill is a long time in coming, trying to find ways for us to utilize the blue catfish, which has become an invasive species. Uh, it started off as a recreational game fish with an opportunity for, uh, for recreational fishermen, but quickly turned into an animal that has adapted to many different environments, displacing, uh, many of the more desired species that are like striped bass, but also becoming a vacuum cleaner.
▶ 1:53:14Unfortunately for other species that we value in the bay, especially species like the blue crab, it's unbelievable. I had a chance to go out on electroshocking trip on the james river, and I was astounded having having gone through school, done a number of electroshocking trips myself as a, as a major, uh, in biology, a minor in fisheries science. I was beside myself. I had never seen this density of any sort of fish anywhere.
▶ 1:53:41Uh, literally the water exploded with blue catfish when they turned the electricity on the boat. The surveys that have been done show up to 550 fish per hectare. That is absolutely incredible. Another study found that there are 20 million blue catfish in the james river. 20 million, as opposed to 145,000 adult striped bass. What has a chance against 20 million catfish?
▶ 1:54:10We want to make sure that we are creating that balance in the ecosystem. Uh, catfish make up more than 75% of the biomass in parts of the bay. That is an ecosystem that is out of balance, folks.
▶ 1:54:24We want to make sure that we are utilizing blue catfish in a way that provides value to fishermen, provides value in balancing the ecosystem, in getting the right balance of fish there, making sure we don't have undue predation on the species that we value. You know, we're looking at blue crab population surveys there. And we see, unfortunately, on a yearly basis, that blue crabs are not recovering. The question is, is what's changing?
▶ 1:54:52You know, the environmental conditions are there for blue crabs to continue. If you look at spawning biomass, it's there. Something must be happening. Where's the mortality happening? I think a lot of folks in looking at stomach content surveys, I've cut open a lot of fish in my day and done stomach content analysis. And I can tell you folks that, uh, fish like blue catfish. It's amazing. What's, uh, what's in their stomachs and blue and blue crabs is part of that.
▶ 1:55:19So the challenge for us is how do we find a way to make sure we're properly utilizing this species? And I want to applaud miss elfreth for her creative thinking, to say, you know, we look at human consumption, but let's look, look, let's look at other ways to use this as a source of protein for other, uh, for other needs and increasing market demand and recreational interest, especially in the realm of feeding our pets.
▶ 1:55:43Uh, listen, there are many, many cat lovers out there that want to make sure that their cats are fed high quality protein. And guess what? We have a solution for that. We're going to make sure that cats get to have that connection with catfish. And what a great connection it is to make sure we're utilizing those catfish, uh, for cat food. Uh, it is a high quality food. It's a great opportunity to utilize an overabundance of these species.
▶ 1:56:13It's a great opportunity for us to make sure that we are helping commercial fishermen, who are always looking for another opportunity there to utilize the species, uh, that benefits them, benefits the community, and benefits many. Uh, this bill would allow that that to happen. As I've talked to local fishermen, they are excited about that. My son is a commercial fisherman. He says, dad, let's go. He's ready to get out there and help be part of this solution to, to catch these blue catfish.
▶ 1:56:40So what a great way for us to make sure we're creating that balance in the ecosystem there, that we're utilizing this species, making sure that there's a management of these species to where we don't have an overabundance, we don't have excess pressure on other species that we also value. And again, I want to encourage my colleagues to strongly support this legislation.
▶ 1:57:01I again want to thank, uh, miss elfreth, thank you so much for your creative thinking, for your thoughtfulness in making sure we find a way to create the balance in that wonderful water body that we all love, the chesapeake bay. And I want to thank her, too, for her partnership and the watershed. Chesapeake bay watershed task force. I look forward to moving the moore's act as quickly as we can through the committee process and make sure we get it, uh, on the house floor to make sure it gets a quick and, uh, and uneventful passage.
▶ 1:57:30Madam chairman, with that, I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. whitman. I want to thank the witness for his testimony today and the members for their questions. The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witness, and we will ask you to respond to those in writing while the clerk is resetting the table. I wanted to, uh, impart some good news that I just received. And then I also will introduce our next panel.
▶ 1:57:54I just learned that the official government statistics from the government of canada, the canadian ice service data shows that the sea ice areas in the arctic from a period from june 20th 5th to june 16th, 202, continues to be above average and even larger than at the beginning of the measurements in 1981.
▶ 1:58:15This year, for the period june 20th 5th to july 16th, the levels are the third highest in over 20 years, and this data source is the canadian ice service. In light of the fact that there was various people who mentioned global warming or climate change today, I wanted to make sure that they were aware of the good news coming out of the canadian government in terms of how the arctic ice is actually growing rather than shrinking. As for our next panel, um, we're going to go ahead and introduce them.
▶ 1:58:43We have major william holcomb, a major in the law enforcement division of the florida fish and wildlife conservation commission in tallahassee, florida. We have Mr. jeff corwin, a wildlife biologist and television host from marshfield, massachusetts. Mr. geno evans, the president of evans farm in pierson, florida. And Mr. forrest burkholder, the president and ceo of s.r. S.r. Exploration in stafford, texas.
▶ 1:59:13And under committee rules, you must limit your oral statements to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone and we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement.
▶ 1:59:37I will also allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning, just so that you know, at any moment they may be calling votes. If they call votes, we'll go ahead. I'm going to go ahead and get started with the testimony. If they call votes, we'll finish with whomever is speaking at the time. We'll head over to the floor. We will adjourn for a short period of time, and then we will come back and finish the panel this afternoon. Recess. Recess. Did I say adjourn? Sorry, I meant recess.
▶ 2:00:05We will recess for a few minutes. Um, I now recognize major holcomb for five minutes. >> good afternoon, chair. >> hageman, ranking. >> member hoyle. >> and members of the subcommittee. My name is bill holcomb, and I serve as. >> a major in the. >> law enforcement division of the florida fish and. Wildlife conservation commission. Thank you for the opportunity to. >> testify today. >> on. Two important. >> bills. >> h.r. >> 3031. >> the florida safe. Seas act, introduced by congressman webster and soto. >> and h.r.
▶ 2:00:36>> 3706, the standards for understanding source and habitat identification act. >> or sushi act. >> introduced by congressman babin. Florida is the third most populous state in the country. >> home to. >> more than 23 million residents. Last year, we welcomed. >> a record breaking 143. >> million visitors. Florida also leads the nation. >> in recreational. >> boating. >> with more. >> than 1 million registered vessels. >> and last year issued. >> more than 2.5. >> million recreational. Fishing licenses. >> these numbers underscore. >> why.
▶ 2:01:06Florida is widely considered the. >> fishing and boating. >> capital of the world. Our diverse. >> vibrant marine ecosystems drive. Not only our. >> tourism economy, but also our. >> coastal heritage. >> and identity. As a peninsula. >> with fisheries. >> managed under both the gulf. >> of america and south atlantic fishery management councils, florida. And the. Fwc play a uniquely important role in. Marine conservation. We appreciate the opportunity to express our strong support for both of these bills. Let me begin with h.r.
▶ 2:01:35331, the florida safe seas act. First, I want. >> to thank congressman. >> webster and soto. >> for their. >> leadership on this legislation and their continued commitment. >> to conservation. >> fwc law enforcement officers patrol nearly 70,000mi of florida's. >> land, waters and coastline. Our mission. >> is twofold to protect public safety and ensure. >> fish and wildlife. >> are harvested legally and sustainably. Human wildlife interactions, especially in marine environments, can present real safety concerns.
▶ 2:02:02Over the years, florida has implemented laws. >> to reduce risky behaviors, such as feeding wildlife. >> that increases the likelihood of injury, for instance, feeding certain high risk species. Such as alligators, bears. Or raccoons is a criminal offense in our state. More than 20 years ago, fwc extended this principle to the. >> marine. >> environment by prohibiting the feeding of sharks and other marine species in state waters, including a ban on operating for hire vessels for the purpose of fish feeding.
▶ 2:02:31The goal is clear to protect divers, swimmers and surfers by by preventing wildlife from becoming conditioned to associate humans with food. The professional association of dive instructors offers two simple guidelines do not touch the. Wildlife and do not feed the wildlife. We strongly agree local. Operators such as the jupiter dive center in jupiter, florida, also support this bill and share our goal of safe, sustainable shark ecotourism. At the federal. >> level.
▶ 2:03:01>> the national park service has already banned the feeding of wildlife across all national parks. H.r. 331 aligns federal law with florida's existing rules, bringing consistency to our waters and strengthening public safety. Turning now to h.r. 3706, the sushi act. The fwc also strongly supports this legislation. In the gulf of america, the commercial red snapper fishery is managed under a strict quota of just under 7.5 million pounds annually.
▶ 2:03:28These fish are caught by american fishermen, landed in gulf states such as florida, and distributed throughout the country. Unfortunately, illegally harvested seafood, particularly from foreign fleets, poses a growing threat. We are aware of credible reports involving foreign vessels, particularly from mexico, harvesting fish from us waters and later importing the catch back into the us market.
▶ 2:03:51Just a few months ago, for mexican nationals were convicted of illegally harvesting 693 pounds of red snapper and four sharks off south padre island, texas. Without robust tracking and enforcement tools, illegally caught fish can undercut american fishermen and undermine conservation efforts.
▶ 2:04:09The sushi act addresses this problem by directing the department of commerce to work with us customs and border protection and the coast guard to develop standardized methods for chemically tracing seafood, beginning with red snapper and tuna. We believe this is a critical step in identifying and preventing the entry of illegal, unreported and unregulated seafood into the us market.
▶ 2:04:30In conclusion, both of these bills represent smart, science based approaches to enhancing public safety, supporting lawful commercial fisheries, and conserving marine resources. The florida fish and wildlife conservation commission stands ready to work with this subcommittee to advance these important initiatives. Thank you for your time and the opportunity to speak on behalf of florida's marine resources, and the men and women who protect them. >> thank you, major holcomb, and thank you for your work with recent tragedy in texas.
▶ 2:05:01>> thank you. >> ma'am, I now recognize Mr. corwin for five minutes. >> good afternoon. >> chair hagerman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. My name is jeff corwin, and for three decades, I produced and hosted more than a dozen nature adventure television series. I'm a wildlife biologist, lifelong naturalist, and passionate outdoorsman. I'm also a commercial fisherman in new england. I am incredibly grateful to live in our bountiful country with its extraordinary natural resources.
▶ 2:05:32I have worked in over 100 countries and no other nation on earth rivals what america has been blessed with. Reflecting on american exceptionalism, we often think of our constitution, our liberty, our entrepreneurial spirit. But I firmly believe that the vast natural treasures from fish to forests have been a consequential but often underappreciated contributor to our national prosperity and global strength.
▶ 2:06:00America is founded on the philosophy that our shared natural treasures belong not to a king, not to nobility, but to every american to be wisely used and cared for, then passed on to the next generation to both harvest and cherish. While american nature is abundant, it is not unlimited. We have many heartbreaking examples of uniquely american species driven to extinction through negligence and overexploitation.
▶ 2:06:28Gone forever are the passenger pigeon, heath hen and eastern elk. But out of this painful loss, we found redemption through programs that focus on conservation with scientific ingenuity and the sustainable management of our natural resources. Vanguard conservation pillars like the endangered species act and the marine mammal protection protection act. We all have treasured memories of wildlife and nature.
▶ 2:06:59Many of you are passionate about protecting the wild places and the creatures and the communities where you live. And you serve. Our american model of natural resource management has always been politically agnostic. Both republicans and democrats have incredible conservation successes.
▶ 2:07:18To celebrate, it was president nixon who created both the esa and the mpa to unprecedented acts of legislation that today find themselves in trouble if permitted. American wildlife is hardwired to survive with the right strategy, endangered species will recover.
▶ 2:07:40We have an abundance of evidence proving that because of the mpa, the mighty elephant seal, once reduced to less than 100, is 10,000 strong. The once endangered whales, like humpbacks and blue whales, have rebounded, and the sea otter, once critically endangered, hunted for its fur, now thrives. From alaska to california.
▶ 2:08:05The esa has been so successful that the american alligator went from critically endangered to plentiful, and is now a sustainable, used resource because of ddt, bald eagle populations were reduced to just 66 pair. Today we have more than 370,000 thriving and flying in our skies. While we have so much to celebrate, we still face incredible challenges.
▶ 2:08:32The 370 remaining north atlantic right whales will soon be extinct. If these vital programs are terminated, the esa and mpa are the last lifeline for hundreds of imperiled species. The critical decisions you make will determine what natural treasures will be there for future generations.
▶ 2:08:54The future of america's wild wonders is in your hands, and by supporting these consequential policies, you ensure that future americans will inherit a vibrant and wild nation to sustainably use, enjoy and treasure. Thank you. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. evans for five minutes. >> chairman. >> ranking. >> member and members.
▶ 2:09:25>> of the committee. >> thank you for. >> this opportunity to testify today. My name is. >> gino evans. >> and I run a family farm with my mother. >> sister and brother. >> evans farms. A. Sturgeon aquaculture. Operation based in pierson, florida. >> we began our program in 2003. >> starting with the beluga sturgeon. >> and have since. >> expanded to. >> include. >> etc. >> siberian. >> suruga and other sturgeon species. We've built a multi-generation. >> closed system broodstock.
▶ 2:09:55>> program that. >> produces high quality. >> caviar and sturgeon. >> meat. While reducing pressure on wild populations. We operate under. Strict federal and state regulations, including the endangered. Species act. We secured. >> permits. Undergone best. >> management practices. >> validation. And worked closely with the florida. >> department of agriculture aquaculture division. >> that's why. >> I. >> support h.r. 4033. >> it fixes a narrow.
▶ 2:10:26>> but critical. >> issue. >> clarifying that. >> captive bred. >> sturgeon legally. >> held in the. >> us should not be. >> treated as. >> same as wild populations. >> under the esa. >> this is. >> in. >> line with. >> science. >> in line with international models like. >> sightings and long overdue. In. >> in 2022. >> the us. >> fish and wildlife. >> service reopened public comment period. On this listing, they received. 42 formal responses.
▶ 2:10:54Of those, 41 were opposed. >> they came. >> from universities. >> international sturgeon experts. Government agencies. >> private farms. >> and industrial organizations. >> the opposition. >> was overwhelming. >> yet here we. >> are, three years. >> later. >> still. >> without a final. >> decision. >> still facing legal and economic uncertainty. >> for our farm. >> last year, petition. >> was. Accepted by us fish. >> and wildlife. >> service to list. >> the san. >> francisco estuary.
▶ 2:11:24>> population of the white sturgeon. >> the agency. >> is working. >> on a proposed rule. >> now. >> the white. >> sturgeon has been sustainably. >> farmed. >> in california. >> since. >> 1983. >> an esa. >> listing would. >> force closure. >> of four california farms. Aquaculture is not just compatible. >> with conservation. >> it is one of the best tools we. >> have to achieve it. >> look at the crocodilian model by allowing controlled, well regulated farming. >> of alligators. >> and crocodiles.
▶ 2:11:54We've seen the wild populations recover. >> poaching, decline. And conservation programs thrive. >> we believe. >> that sturgeon. >> can follow. >> that same. >> path. At evans. >> farms. >> we use. >> gulf sturgeon. >> as an. >> ambassador species for education and outreach. >> our farm. Welcomes school groups. >> works with scientists. >> and helps the. >> public understand why sturgeon matter. >> but we. Can't keep. >> doing this if we're regulated out of. >> the market. >> by rules that were never.
▶ 2:12:25>> meant. >> for our. >> kind of operation. >> so I strongly. >> support h.r. 4033. >> the sturgeon. Conservation and sustainability act. >> it's common. >> sense bill. >> ensures that captive bred sturgeon. >> held legally. >> and responsibly. >> are not punished. >> by a. Listing that doesn't apply to our operations. Our improved species. >> recovery in the range countries. So no, this bill doesn't weaken the esa. >> it protects. >> it. >> by making sure it applies where it matters most. >> in the wild and.
▶ 2:12:55>> lets farms like mine continue. >> to contribute. >> to conservation. Create jobs. >> and reduce. >> global reliance. >> on. >> wild caught fish. >> thank you. >> Mr. evans. You bring a very important, uh, story and situation to us. So thank you for being here. I now recognize Mr. burkholder for five minutes of testimony. >> chairman, ranking member and members of the subcommittee.
▶ 2:13:20My name is forrest burkholder, and I'm president and ceo of esa exploration and vice chair of energy alliance. Ngo members are geoscience companies that use earth science to discover, develop and deliver energy solutions to the world. Many ngo members operate to the us across the outer continental shelf, including the arctic, and extensively within the gulf of america. Esa exploration is headquartered in houston, texas. We have permanent offices in anchorage and deadhorse, alaska, and around the world.
▶ 2:13:50We have a partnership in alaska with the kufpec, and we continue to work closely with kaktovik. For those that are less familiar with geosciences, we do specialized subsurface imaging for petroleum, natural gas, hydrogen, geothermal and carbon capture storage, to name a few. Think of this as an ultrasound for the ground geoscience. Innovation has transformed energy, providing the data needed to develop resource potential, all while reducing the environmental footprint of exploration.
▶ 2:14:18Informed decisions regarding energy development can only be made with information provided by modern geoscience surveys. By 2050, we need to discover 17.5 billion barrels of oil equivalent per year to match global demand. Globally, we've only discovered 1.4 billion barrels this year. America and the world continue to need energy.
▶ 2:14:43The majority of energy comes from the earth, and geo geosciences provides the information that enables responsible production. The increasing demand means energy exploration is required, that exploration and investment will occur where industry can acquire geoscience data with favorable economics and supportive regulatory and policy structures. Of critical importance is the permitting process despite or precisely because of its importance? It is a point of heightened vulnerability for geoscience industry.
▶ 2:15:12Permitting of exploration is too often stalled in regulatory reviews without accountable timelines, and is favored entry point for activists looking to block american energy development, whether that's petroleum, natural gas, or even alternative energy. As with many laws, we don't always know the problems until we've operated under them. We've learned that for some people, it's easy to exploit the ambiguities in existing regulations governing the potential take of these activities.
▶ 2:15:40Activists have discovered that those ambiguities create opportunities for regulatory sabotage that can freeze agency activity and undermine all the best intentions of honest regulators. You have the opportunity to fix this in alaska, despite responsible operations by industry with no violations, almost every issued permit with exploration activities has been challenged in court by environmental activists.
▶ 2:16:06Currently, essar exploration has two requests for authorizations that have been stalled for multiple years with unexplained delays. The failure to issue permits or to issue permits that can avoid legal challenges is hindering projects that reduce environmental impacts and improve evaluation of state and federal resources. This uncertainty has a direct impact on local communities, the state of alaska, and indeed the nation's economic well-being and energy security. These challenges are not unique to alaska.
▶ 2:16:35Although mathematical errors were discovered in the finalized gulf of alaska mpa regulation in 2021, proposed revisions were not finalized until 2024, creating uncertainty and delay in the agency's authorizations by setting reasonable deadlines in the application process, removing unnecessary duplication between the mpa and esa, along with removing or better defining terms. Congress can ensure the agencies are accountable to the existing statutory timelines and prevent future misapplication.
▶ 2:17:06The statute so that it can function as originally intended. Representative begich's efforts to modernize and revise the mpa are absolutely necessary. Geoscience investment is a necessary precondition every time to energy investment. In conclusion, the mpa is supposed to provide better protections for marine mammals from human activities that can cause direct physical harm to them, a goal that has largely been realized.
▶ 2:17:34Decades of regulation and litigation have caused mpa to be interpreted far more expansively than congress intended, and exposed significant flaws in the plain language of the act. Fixing these problems, as proposed in Mr. begich's bill, would increase permitting efficiency, decrease uncertainty, benefit stakeholders, the implementing agencies, and most importantly, continue to protect marine mammals.
▶ 2:17:58It would prevent abuse of the law and facilitate greater geoscience, investment and american energy independence. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and I look forward to any questions. >> thank you. Mr. burkholder. As of this point, there are 73 people who have voted. So I am going to go ahead and I am going to begin the questioning of the, um, the members. And, uh, again, at some point we will recess.
▶ 2:18:26But if anyone wants to go ahead and head over and vote, they're sure welcome to do so. I'm going to start with myself. Mr. burkholder, I would like to begin with you. Your testimony states that the mpa is fertile ground for legal challenges. And I listened with interest. As you describe the various challenges that you've had in terms of pursuing energy over the years, we've seen environmental activists use the legal process to halt projects. How would reforming the mpa address this, this type of litigation?
▶ 2:18:57>> thank you for that question. Revising the bill would allow it to remain in place for longer than five years. This will help prevent situations like we've seen in alaska, where ngos repeatedly challenge every permit that's issued. The revisions will also lessen or eliminate interagency compliance for mmp authorizations, which helps reduce repetitive analysis and the number of decisions and ngos can challenge it. Uh, I've heard multiple questions on the front of how can the agencies get things done?
▶ 2:19:27And I would just say if we have better defining terms and we're able to easily understand them, we'll be able to get those permits issued in a, in a more timely fashion, and they'll be more robust industries not looking for exclusions to, you know, following following the guidelines and ensuring that our that our marine mammals are protected. >> wonderful. Well thank you.
▶ 2:19:54I'm just going to quickly follow up decoupling the esa and mpa is reform suggestion that has previously been proposed. Could you share how the discussion draft attempts to accomplish this and how it would improve the permitting process under the mpa?
▶ 2:20:11>> I think that I think that having clear guidance for from congress, for the agencies will, will allow us to ensure that species are protected and that that, you know, industry acts responsibly and, and, uh, separating those, separating those uh, analyzes will improve that process. >> okay. Um, Mr. evans, I'm going to quickly turn to you.
▶ 2:20:39Can you detail for the subcommittee all of the steps you have taken to try to comply with the current 4d rule requirements for beluga sturgeon, and why that compliance has proven impossible. >> yes, ma'am. >> thank you for that question. >> uh, at the farm, you know. >> under the esa, there. >> is a. >> uh. >> a clause in there called the 4d rule, which. >> allows if you meet the 4d rule. >> it'll allow commercial. >> trade in that species. >> uh. >> which means that we need. >> to go.
▶ 2:21:09>> to the range countries and start an education and conservation program. Um, some of the range countries are russia. >> ukraine, iran. >> so for a small farm, it. >> you know, is. >> insurmountable hill to climb. Uh, we followed what the service told us to do. Uh, didn't get any response. >> back. >> besides ukraine. That said. >> it. Right now. >> they were. More fighting for their life than they were worried about conservation.
▶ 2:21:38And the beluga. These beluga have been on the farm, uh, for 14 years now. And we have we can't do anything with it. We have to feed them, take care of them. Uh, we can't use the tape to euthanize them. Uh, so this has turned critical for us. >> do you believe that domestic aquaculture of sturgeon species in the conservation of these same species in the wild can responsibly coexist? >> yes.
▶ 2:22:07>> I think, you know, aquaculture is the only way for these species to exist. It will remove, you know, most of the wild caught, uh, caviar in the world. Now, you know, it comes from other countries, but just just being listed on the esa has nothing to do with with their recovery in, in the wild. >> okay. Mr. corwin, in your testimony, you state that marine mammals primary senses hearing and that they are susceptible to noise.
▶ 2:22:34Do you think marine mammals are impacted by the continued operation and construction of offshore wind farms? >> thank you for that question. I think that we really do have to do a deep dive on any construction that we do off our shores, and that we have to find that balance.
▶ 2:22:53And I think it's very important, though, that we recognize that we have some species that are so critically endangered, for example, off the coast of new england where I live, we have the north atlantic right whale. That species is on life support.
▶ 2:23:09So we need to do whatever reasonable measures we can do to try to protect that species while be creative, to explore those technologies, to provide all sorts of energy. >> in other words, I think what your answer is, is we don't know the answer to that yet. And we need to do additional study to determine what impacts the construction and operation of offshore wind farms may be having on our marine mammals. Is that fair?
▶ 2:23:39>> I think we know that marine mammals are highly sensitive to sound in the water. This is their primary mode of navigating and finding food. There have been a lot of scientific studies to show that there is disturbance with these animals. With intensive underwater operations, so we have to do what we can do to protect these species. At the same time, we live in a very challenged world with limited resources.
▶ 2:24:04We need to explore alternative energies to be as competitive as possible and as sustainable as possible. So we need to find that balance. >> well, thank you very much. And, Mr. huffman, I understand you want to go forward with your five minutes of question time. It's up to you if. >> we can sneak it in while the vote is pending. That'd be great. Okay. >> yeah. Um, if you want to do that, I'm. I'm it's up to. It's entirely up to you. Let's go ahead with your five minutes of questioning, Mr. huffman. >> thank you, madam chair. Mr.
▶ 2:24:33Corwin, I'd like to pick up with you, please. Um, I think we tried with the active acting fish and wildlife service director to ask some pretty basic questions and a lot of different ways, uh, to try to draw out what seems pretty obvious that it's a lot harder to protect fish and wildlife and to manage refuges and do other things. When you have a depleted staff and when your budget has been hammered. But we couldn't quite get that acknowledgment.
▶ 2:25:02Um, what seemed to come out was that we will just sort of solve all these problems with good wishes. Uh, we'll manifest good outcomes somehow. And I want to go back to the a time you referred to in your testimony, back before we had all these laws, um, people had good wishes back then.
▶ 2:25:21Um, they wanted good outcomes, but it was determined that we actually also need laws, and we need agencies, and we need to have them staffed, and we need to have conservation standards that mean something. Can you sort of speak to why good wishes don't quite get you there when it comes to protecting wildlife from bad outcomes.
▶ 2:25:42>> I think I could approach that in from my experiences working with the us fish and wildlife service, working with noaa, working with a lot of state and federal agencies as I am, um, absolutely blown away by their ability to work with minimal resources to do incredible feats of conservation.
▶ 2:26:04And some of my greatest experiences and most powerful, uh, positive stories has been with the us fish and wildlife service and their incredible conservation work. But that requires resources. And those resources I don't think are spent anecdotally to protect something that we care about. It's beyond that. It's about securing natural resources that we depend upon.
▶ 2:26:27And when we see in the greater environment animals that are facing challenges and that are in trouble, that need us to sort of step in and cultivate an environment where they can recover. That usually also indicates that there are impacts to that environment that could have a ripple effect upon ourselves.
▶ 2:26:49In the end, we're all interconnected to these resources, and it is incredibly important that our federal agencies and our state agencies have those resources to do their job to ensure that the next generation of americans inherits a biologically rich and healthy country. >> yeah. Thank you. And laws that set meaningful standards and enforcement mechanisms. We didn't used to have that.
▶ 2:27:16Uh, and back before these laws were put in place, many species were on a bobsled to extinction. It was looking pretty bad. But we've had some incredible success stories. Can you speak to some of those with the mpa in particular, some of the successes in how these laws actually worked, and did. >> we have seen um, thank you for that question.
▶ 2:27:39We have seen incredible recovery, for example, with california sea lions in some regions of, uh, coastal california. To me, one of the most incredible stories of recovery is the elephant seal. The elephant seal was reduced to 100. It's now over 10,000. And it took a lot of science, uh, sweat equity and a lot of folks giving their time, treasure and talent to recover that species.
▶ 2:28:04But with state agencies and with federal agencies and the recovery of that species meant the recovery of fisheries that that species depends upon, and also an incredible resource for people that live in the state of california, because tens of millions of dollars is spent in the region of ano nuevo state park, where people go to witness this incredible odyssey of nature with with elephant seals that nearly became extinct.
▶ 2:28:35>> and at the point reyes national seashore. Yes, we got lots of them. We love them. Uh, another thing in this proposed bill would be, um, a new kind of constraining of science where you could only act to protect species if you actually saw the deaths of these species and jumped through all of these hoops, including peer reviewed studies, to prove the cause of that desk death.
▶ 2:28:58In other words, um, it would be really hard to actually get to the point of taking action to protect some of these animals. Mr. corman, you know that many animals spend most of their lives underwater, far from shore, in pods. They migrate across vast areas. How realistic is it to demand that level of proof before you can take protective action for marine mammals? >> well, data is incredibly important.
▶ 2:29:25Uh, all the progress we've made in conservation and the challenges that we've been able to hurdle comes from scientific data through standards and methods that we do to analyze and then come up with a management program. We need to know why animals die. And just like with the human being, if you saw someone who died mysteriously, you would want to know why and you'd do an autopsy. Well, we do the same thing with animals. It's called a necropsy.
▶ 2:29:50And all that information we discovered not only reveals the impact of that individual, but also what's happening in that population and species. And oftentimes we could find an interconnection to ourselves, for example, with a resource that we also use that they use, for example, with diatoms and algae and things like that and blooms in the environment. >> so it's critically important to need you to wrap up. >> our time. >> thank you. Thank you. We are at a time we are going to we're going to recess.
▶ 2:30:19And we will reconvene a little bit after five. I'm going to say 510. >> thank you.
▶ 2:53:49>> reconvene the hearing. And I am going to call on miss hoyle, the ranking member, for five minutes of questions. >> thank you. And thank you all for being here and being so patient with us while we went, um, and voted. So, um, for my first question, I'd like to ask Mr. corwin. Um, gray whales migrate past the oregon coast twice every year, supporting millions in tourism revenue for our coastal communities.
▶ 2:54:18This supports jobs for hotel workers, restaurants, staff, boat crews, boosting the coastal economy. I know you've been to the oregon coast. It's stunning. This year, only 85 calves were born, the lowest on record, and over 150 whales have died. Now, the mpa discussion draft today would ignore the deaths we can't directly observe. Why is it essential for science to count all the whale deaths, not just the ones we see?
▶ 2:54:48>> well, it's incredibly important to get an understanding of what's going on with that population and to make sure species are replacing themselves at a level that they're bringing the next generation of reproducers in. And so that's kind of what we call carrying capacity when that species grows up and gets to that level where it's sustained in that environment and they can continue, continue to grow.
▶ 2:55:14And we don't know that information if we don't have all that data, including the mortality. And when we see year after year with gray whales and other species that they're producing less and they're taking longer to produce, and the adults have higher mortality, that tells us that we have challenges. >> thank you. And you've spent your career working hands on with marine mammals in the field.
▶ 2:55:43From your experience studying these animals up close, why are strong science based protections like mpa so critical for the conservation work you do? And how would this legislation undermine that? >> well, I think I would answer that with that. We can't just anecdotally make decisions we need to have. We can't make a decision because we want that to be whether what side you're on or how you look at that.
▶ 2:56:12We need scientific data and we need research, and we need the scientific rigor with that, data is challenged. And then when we have that correct information, we then apply that to a management strategy.
▶ 2:56:28And that's why it's important to have verified, uh, research techniques and data techniques with confirmed uh, results within the either academia or the researchers or the leadership in that specific type of study or conservation effort. That's why that's so important.
▶ 2:56:54>> so and within your work, have you noticed, I know that we've had a number of research grants, specifically at oregon state university, that does a lot of this research, um, at the hatfield marine center. Um, have we've seen impacts with the, uh, pushing out and firing of federal workers under doge. Have you seen that in your experience? Have you seen the impact of that? >> I, I have not I've seen a little bit of that, but I've not seen an extreme amount of that.
▶ 2:57:26We do some work with federal agencies. Most of my work, my current series is in florida, and I work a lot with the fwc and other organizations. So, uh, I was filming recently in south florida and heard of, uh, resource challenges, uh, on a federal, uh, national wildlife refuge.
▶ 2:57:45Um, and I, you know, personally, anecdotally, I've worked with a lot of biologists and a lot of my colleagues work for the fish and wildlife service or worked for the fish and wildlife service, and people feel challenged, and people want to want to have the resources to do the job right and protect our wildlife legacy.
▶ 2:58:07But but if they don't have a if we don't have the story, we're not going to go film it because that's how the tv show works. >> um, I think, uh, lastly, I want to I want to thank you for bringing up how conservation and marine mammal protection and the esa have been bipartisan. You started with roosevelt and his conservation stewardship legacy.
▶ 2:58:33You know, president reagan, um, under whom the esa, um, was was started, president bush, president clinton, that these are things that we have done in a bipartisan way. And I hope that we can continue to do so because, um, it's critical and important for our entire ecosystem. So thank you so much for being with us today, and I yield. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. soto for five minutes of questions.
▶ 2:59:04>> thank you, madam chairwoman. Uh, major holcomb, thanks for being here. Uh, I appreciate you coming to testify in support of the florida safe seas act. Have you seen a higher incidences in shark feeding? Uh, lately in florida? >> thank you for the question. And thank you for your work on this bill. We do appreciate it. Um, not the question was more shark feeding. >> yeah, I've seen a high incidence of that. Obviously. That's what we've heard anecdotally, but you're on the front lines. >> so we're constantly working on education.
▶ 2:59:33You know we do see shark feeding. And we do try to have a pretty strong campaign to educate the public and divers the importance of not. >> doing that, enticing. >> sharks with food. Obviously, we know. >> that there's. >> obvious dangers. Anytime you encounter any wildlife, particularly sharks in the water, uh, you're enhancing the risk of a shark attack. So we try to have a heavy educational campaign on that. And I think we've done a good job of reaching out to the public through social media, through outreach events and. >> things like that.
▶ 3:00:01>> so you think if we could reduce feedings, then that will lessen the conditioning of sharks to interact with humans, and especially in fishing and some of these other situations, absolutely. >> any, any extra layer of protection, you know, to not entice the sharks to come and associate humans with food. Um, we think that's a step in the right direction. >> thanks. >> Mr. corwin, we're excited that you're in our home state of florida.
▶ 3:00:26Uh, what have been some of the major observations you've seen about things like manatees and sailfish, swordfish and some of the other, uh, issues that you've gotten to see while you've been there? >> thank you very much for that question. And I spend a lot of my time in florida, in hobe sound and south florida. I spend a lot of my time in the everglades. My underwriting partner are the miccosukee tribe of indians of florida for our abc series.
▶ 3:00:52Uh, we've done a lot of stories on sharks, which is such an important issue to me. Uh, sharks are very critical to our oceans. And when you're not hand-feeding sharks, you're not only protecting people, you're protecting sharks. Uh, there's kind of a saying and wildlife conservation, like anything that you feed, will end up bad for that animal. So, like, a fed bear is a dead bear. And the same thing with sharks, it will lead to conflict.
▶ 3:01:21Um, I have hope for manatees because of the work I've done with the conservationists in florida. I just finished a big project with the florida fish and wildlife conservation commission, their leadership team on manatee conservation. And I have hope because we need that hope because the manatee population is in trouble. I think right now it's probably around 6 or 7000 animals.
▶ 3:01:46Um, it's because of the esa and the marine mammal protection act that that they have that crossover conservation opportunity between those policies. And also, it really is incredible to see the partnership between the state agencies, the state universities, ngos with their federal partners all coming together to protect manatees because florida manatees are the ultimate symbol of the watery
▶ 3:02:16Ways of south florida. And if we lose them, it's not only an incredible loss of wild legacy, it's a valuable revenue stream. People come from around the world to see manatees. Florida is the gateway adventure for people of all economic levels. Not everyone's going to go on a safari. Not everyone's going to go to see china and panda bear, but a lot of people can go to florida and see a gator and see a manatee, which it is so important that we protect florida and its natural resources well.
▶ 3:02:46>> and we invite you up to central florida, too. It's a great part of the state with, uh, the kissimmee chain of lakes, huge bass fishing area, obviously lots of gators and bald eagles and things of that nature. And then the indian river lagoon, which is in the district next to mine, where you see a lot of strong efforts to try to improve the water there that, uh, that is so critical for manatee habitat. Have you gotten a chance to go a little further north than that? >> I was just there.
▶ 3:03:13So I was working in with this really cool project, trying to save freshwater turtles from the impact of invasive species. As you know, invasive species are a world of hurt for south florida. If you go to the everglades, half the fish you're going to catch are from somewhere else. They'll be tilapia, they'll be cichlids, they'll be oscars. So and in that part of the region, we have challenges with water issues. And the biggest lesson I've learned in florida is that it's all interconnected.
▶ 3:03:41What you do in a lake is going to affect a coral reef. And in florida today, the only coral reefs in north america are in florida in less than 5% survive in an ecosystem that sustains 70% of all of marine life. >> and we're trying to hold on to the great florida reef. We had a bipartisan bill a few years ago to fund it, but it's a big fight to keep that funding going. And with warming seas, that's a challenge, too. And so we'll continue to work together.
▶ 3:04:11And I appreciate, gentlemen, both of your perspectives today. >> thank you. Um, I want to thank the witnesses for your valuable testimony. And you've been very patient today. We have had quite a bit of testimony coming through. I think we've got some exciting bills that are coming before us. I have noticed that with this committee, there tends to be more bipartisanship in terms of some of the issues that we address. I think that that is a good thing.
▶ 3:04:37And I think all of you have provided some incredible, invaluable insight as to what you do at the state level, what you do in terms of your observations, uh, across the marine world, the work that you're doing, attempting to save the sturgeon and the work that you're doing, making sure that we can produce energy in a in a very respectful and very environmentally friendly way. I appreciate all the work that everyone of you do.
▶ 3:05:01The members of this committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to those in writing and other committee rule three. Members of the committee must submit such questions to the committee clerk by 5 p.m. Eastern on friday, july 25th. The hearing record will be held open for ten business days for these responses, and if there is no further business, yes. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 3:05:24I would like to ask unanimous consent to submit for the record a statement by leading whale scientists in the pacific northwest expressing opposition to the discussion draft ignoring the history of the marine mammal populations before the mpa. Um, the misunderstanding of science, the way the draft shifts from um, from forward thinking policies to retroactive measures, and how it constrains management. Without objection. So ordered.
▶ 3:05:52>> um, an open letter from dozens of marine scientists on the value of the mpa, a letter from over two dozen alaskan scientists, tribes, conservationists, boaters, fishers and business owners opposing the discussion draft a letter from over 60 wildlife organizations expressing their opposition to the mpa discussion draft and a letter from the american society of mammalogists expressing deep concerns.
▶ 3:06:18How the discussion draft weakens the core provisions of the mpa, and finally, a letter from over 70 organizations opposing h.r. 180 and h 433, and warning of the damage it will cause to the recovery of esa listed species. >> with that, without objection, so ordered. And if there is no further business without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Absolutely.