▶ 0:05:16The committee will come to order. Welcome and thank you for joining today's hearing entitled An Examination of the Implications of Proposition 12. After brief opening remarks, members will receive testimony from our witnesses today and then the hearing will be open to questions. So, uh, good morning everyone and, uh, and thank you for joining us today for this important hearing to examine the implication of California's Proposition 12.
▶ 0:05:44To each of our witnesses, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your expertise with us. In 2018, California passed Proposition 12, a law that imposes arbitrary and unscientific housing standards on any pork, ve or egg products that a producer may wish to sell into the state.
▶ 0:06:05Uh, backed by animal rights activists, the requirements of Prop 12 have no standing in reality and do nothing to improve animal welfare, food safety, or food affordability. In fact, California's Department of Food and Agriculture noted in their rulemaking that animal confinement space allowances prescribed in the act are not based in specific peer-reviewed published scientific literature or accepted as standards within the scientific community to reduce food
▶ 0:06:35uh human food born illnesses, promote worker safety, the environment or other human or safety concerns. Similarly, the American Veterinary Medical Association opposes Prop 12, stating the arbitrary housing requirements do not objectively improve animal welfare and may unintentionally cause harm. Such concerns along with the compliance costs for producers and consumers alike led Prop 12 all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States.
▶ 0:07:07After years of litigation, the United States Supreme Court ultimately upheld California's law. Importantly, uh, Justice Gorsuch noted several times in the majority opinion that Congress would be well within its power to act in this case. I disagree with the court's decision to uphold Prop 12, but I do agree that Congress can and must act to rectify the burdens of Prop 12 as imposed on interstate commerce.
▶ 0:07:33I'm submitting for the record a a letter from uh the Secretary of Agriculture, U Brook Rollins, that outlines the economic impacts that we have seen since Prop 12 went into effect in January 1st, 2024. So without objection, that letter is entered into the record. The letter highlights many concerning economic realities that our producers and consumers are facing in a postprop 12 world.
▶ 0:08:03The average cost of retrofitting or rebuilding facilities to meet prop 12 standards is estimated 3500 to 40 3500 to 4500 per s. The same data shows that compliance costs disproportionately affect small and midsize producers who face tighter margins and have less access to capital.
▶ 0:08:25In fact, as of the quarter first quarter of 2025, 12% of small pork operations have exited the market or shifted production away from breeding uh citing regulatory uncertainty and high transition costs. On the consumer side, retail pork prices in California have increased by 18.7% uh year-over-year compared to a 6.3% increase nationwide over the same period.
▶ 0:08:52A recent USDA consumer affordability study found that low-income households in California reduce pork purchases by 22% indicating price increases are affecting food access and affordability for economically vulnerable populations. The data shows that both producers and consumers are facing significant cost increases due to Prop 12. It begs the question, if producers are paying more and consumers are paying more, who's winning?
▶ 0:09:23Thankfully, the complexity and unfairness of Prop 12 has been realized by both sides of the aisle. Former Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsac testified before this committee about the harms of Prop 12, stating there would be quote chaos in the marketplace end quote without a fix. Our current Secretary of Agriculture, Brooke Rollins, also thinks that we must act and offered her full support for our efforts.
▶ 0:09:47She stated, quote, "Cal has the right do to do what California wants to do, but the minute that crosses the border and starts to compromise in such a significant way our pork producers, we need to act." End quote. That's why I introduced section 12007 in the Farm, Food, and National Security Act of 2024. This provision is a common sense middle ground approach to protect consumers from arbitrary and unscientific mandates.
▶ 0:10:16It does not undo thousands of state-based agriculture laws and it does not restrict the state's right to impose standards within within their own borders. It simply clarifies that states cannot impose as a condition for sale or consumption a production standard on livestock unless that livestock is located within the state's borders. This means that Prop 12 will will stand in California, but only for those producers within California's borders.
▶ 0:10:44Similar state mandates like question 3 in Massachusetts will also stand, but again, only for the producers within their borders. Section 120007 enjoys the support of the National Pork Producers Council, the American Farm Bureau Federation, and over 900 more national, state, and local farm organizations, as well as the AVMA.
▶ 0:11:10Despite this support from agriculture community, false narratives about sections 12007 continue to be told in DC and across the countryside. Driven by animal rights groups who are parading as farmers and ranchers, I've heard every accusition accusation possible. From China somehow gaining access to our farmland to thousands of state laws being overturned. Neither of these carries any weight.
▶ 0:11:36While false, the China argument is a convenient straw man during a time of heightened scrutiny of China's investments in the United States. The truth is that uh protein conglomerates with foreign ownership have the resources to comply with state-by-state mandates while small family farmers and ranchers do not.
▶ 0:11:57The cost of compliance for small producers could actually push them out of the market altogether leading to further consolidation in the industry and that would be a true gift to China. As we hear from our witnesses today, it is my hope that we all take to heart what they are saying. From producers on the ground to the economic and legal experts who have watched this unfold to the consumer advocate who sees higher prices every day in California, it is paramount that we take their concerns seriously.
▶ 0:12:28In order to protect the right of American farmers and ranchers to raise their animals how they see fit, we must protect provide a fix for Proposition 12. Now, I'm proud of the work we did to get section 1207, which passed out of committee last year with a bipartisan vote. I look forward to working with my colleagues to include this provision in the upcoming farm bill reauthorization. Thank you again to our witnesses for being here today. We look forward to hearing from you.
▶ 0:12:54And with that, I yield to the distinguished uh gentle lady from Minnesota, the ranking member of the agriculture committee uh for any opening comments that she would like to make.
▶ 0:13:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, everyone. I'm proud to say that Minnesota ranks second in the country for hog production with over 3,000 pig farms operating in the state. As such, I am intensely familiar with the subject of today's hearing and have heard from producers on both sides of the issue. Like most controversial cases, it's not really that simple. Today's topic has been litigated extensively since I first came to Congress.
▶ 0:13:33Since California residents voted to enact Proposition 12 in 2018, we've seen challenges to the law, the Supreme Court ruling in favor of the law, numerous proposals and attempts to negate the law through federal legislation, and now a hearing regarding where we go from here. Prop 12 is clearly a contentious issue, and it merits thoughtful bipartisan discussion.
▶ 0:13:58Even today, this very day, I've seen two different letters citing two different sets of data that come to different conclusions about pork prices in California. Any true representative of farm country knows that Prop 12 is a concern for producers on both sides of the issue. We can't ignore the questions and challenges Prop 12 raises.
▶ 0:14:21Even the Biden administration's a secretary said we need to treat this issue seriously to ensure stability in the marketplace. I agree that we can't have 50 states with 50 different regulatory frameworks because of the significant challenges it would present to producers, but I also believe that there are ways to avoid that situation.
▶ 0:14:43I also recognize that many pork producers have made significant financial investments to make their operations POP, excuse me, Prop 12 compliant to satisfy the desires of California's consumers for premium pork products. It would be unfair to the family farmers who updated their facilities to comply with new rules to keep or gain market access to change the rules on them after they've already made those investments.
▶ 0:15:10I think Congress also needs to be mindful of the voters in California who exercise their rights under the state constitution to adopt this policy. We should think carefully before allowing legislators in Washington to override their will. While I welcome more attention to this topic, there are additional threats to the livestock sector happening right now that also deserve this committee's focus. This administration's worldwide trade war could hurt our domestic livestock industry.
▶ 0:15:39We export 30% of the pork we produce and hogs are constantly moving back and forth across our border with Canada. But today, packers are being forced to render hogs that normally would have been exported.
▶ 0:15:53We haven't gained new market access to replace the lost Chinese market which took a hit during the CO era supply chain chaos and then shrank further after China cancelled 12,000 metric tons of US pork imports in retaliation against President Trump's first trade war. At the same time, there's ongoing labor shortage for hog farms and meat processors that are that's being exacerbated by the administration's chaotic and volatile mass deportation program.
▶ 0:16:24The administration is eliminating large portions of the meat packing workforce, which will affect hog prices when packers can't operate facilities at full capacity. Just the other week, 200 legal workers at a JBS plant in Iowa had their visas revoked and are now being deported. Congress can work on solutions to revitalize and strengthen the agriculture guest worker program, but common sense needs to prevail.
▶ 0:16:51I'm hopeful that this Prop 12 hearing will give us some new ideas to work with and possibly yield a viable path forward for all of our nation's hog farmers. I'm also hopeful that the majority during uh any farm bill discussions that might occur will be open to new ideas. I want to thank our witnesses for their testimony today. I look forward to hearing from them. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:17:16I thank the gentle lady. The chair would request that other members submit their opening statements for the record so the witnesses may begin their testimony to ensure that there's ample time for questions. Uh our first witness today is Mr. Patrick uh Horde, who is the CEO of Horde Family Farms, a fifth generation family farming operation located in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, and surrounding states.
▶ 0:17:41They raise approximately 8,500 acres of corn, soybeans, wheat, and hay, as well as care for 47,000 SS and pigs from birth to market. They also feed approximately 1,200 beef cattle per year, operate three grain elevators, employ 350 team members, and partner with over 200 farmer swine growers. Mr. Hord also serves as vice president of the National Pork Producers Council board of directors. Our next witness is Mr.
▶ 0:18:11uh Matt uh uh Skyman, a pig farmer and board member with the Iowa Farm Bureau. He lives and farms with his wife uh Mindy and their seven children near Sue Center in Sou County, Iowa. Our third witness uh today is uh Miss Holly Cook who's an economist at the National Pork Producers Council.
▶ 0:18:36Miss Cook uh collects and analyzes uh data for the pork industry and conducts research on the impact of proposed policies and regulations on the pork industry. She grew up on a fereral to finish farm operation in Winthrop, Iowa. Our next witness is Mr. Travis Kushman, the deputy general counsel for litigation and public policy at the American Farm Bureau Federation.
▶ 0:19:00He has spent the better part of four years examining the negative effects of California's Proposition 12 and helped elevate the issue to the Supreme Court. Our fifth witness today is Miss Lily Roa, the executive director of the Latino Restaurant Association, an 800 plus member national organization based in Los Angeles, California. And she is also the the founder of Latino Food Industry Trade Show, the nation's largest Latin food trade show.
▶ 0:19:31I'll now yield to our ranking member, Miss Craig, to introduce our next witness.
▶ 0:19:35Thank you. Tiffany Dao Lashmmet is a professor in extension specialist in agriculture law. She is located in the department of agriculture economics at Texas&M University. Tiffany grew up on a family farm and ranch in northeastern New Mexico where her family raised sheep, cattle, alalfa, wheat, and milo.
▶ 0:19:56Tiffany has a BS in agrous farm and ranch management from Oklahoma State University and a jurist doctorate from the University of New Mexico School of
▶ 0:20:08Thank you very much. Thank you to all for joining us today. We're now going to proceed to your testimony. You'll each have five minutes. The timer in front of you will countdown to zero, at which time your uh at which point your time has expired. Uh Mr. Horde, please begin when you're ready. Good morning, uh, Chairman Thompson, Ranking Member, uh, Craig, and members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to testify. My name is Pat Horde, and I am a fourth generation pork producer from Busous, Ohio.
▶ 0:20:38Our farm's legacy stretches back to uh, 1905 when my great-grandfather purchased a track of land in North Central Ohio. My wife Janelle and I carry on that legacy by caring for our pigs from birth to market. We have been blessed to farm row crops and livestock across a number of states and importantly for today's discussion we produce pork compliant with California Prop 12. I serve as the vice president of the National Pork Producers Council.
▶ 0:21:04We res we represent the interests of America's more than 60,000 pork producers. Our industry supports over 573,000 US jobs and adds about 63 billion to the nation's GDP. Despite uh producing Prop 12 compliant pork, I am here to say that Prop 12 and an unmitigated regulatory patchwork threatens our farm.
▶ 0:21:29Prop 12 makes it a crime in California to sell uncooked whole pork meat from the offspring of SAS that aren't raised according to the state's arbitrary housing standards. Meat packers and retailers will not stop selling to California's 40 million residents, which means producers across the country have needed to comply with California's mandate. Proponents of Prop 12 claim the measure was designed to improve animal welfare. However, welfare is a complex issue.
▶ 0:21:58Every style of housing, including group pens, are functionally uh which are functionally required by Prop 12 come with challenges. Last year, supporting the preeemption of Prop 12, the American Veterinary Medical Association stated, "The arbitrary housing requirements in Prop 12 do not objectively improve animal welfare and may unintentionally cause harm." Larger farms tend to have access to sufficient capital to diversify and absorb Prop 12's cost burdens, but smaller farms find
▶ 0:22:28it difficult to obtain the capital and undertake the associated risks. Regardless of size, all farms have or will continue to experience productivity losses under Prop 12. You simply cannot house the same number of SVs in the same size barn. Prop 12 compliant housing is inherently less efficient. The existential challenge of Prop 12 is a patchwork of differing regulations across the country.
▶ 0:22:53It creates uncertainty around what design we need to use for our new barns and even how I decide what to do when an existing barn needs remodeling. Whatever I do today could be uh need to be changed when a new state decides they want a different housing standard. These are expensive changes and some farmers may exit the business amid this uncertainty which increases consolidation.
▶ 0:23:17MPPPC fought uh to stop California from regulating farms outside of its borders uh filing suit against Prop 12 and taking the case to the Supreme Court. The lawsuit raised important legal questions around federalism, the relationship between states, and the power of individual states to regulate outofstate businesses. The court made it clear Congress can and should uh fix Prop 12. There is strong bipartis bipartisan opposition to Prop 12.
▶ 0:23:47The bipart the Biden administration argued against it before the Supreme Court and the Trump administration recently filed suit against Prop 12 over its impacts on egg prices, arguing it unnecessarily increases the cost of food and food production by manipulating interstate Prop 12 isn't only a domestic problem. It it applies to and greatly concerns our trading partners.
▶ 0:24:12The Canadian government, for example, is analyzing the effects of Prop 12 and considering the US obligations under the US MCA and the WTO. To summarize, Prop 12's housing standards were developed without the input of hog farmers, veterinarians, or food safety experts. Prop 12 does not objectively improve animal welfare and leaves the industry vulnerable to the uncertainty of a 50-state patchwork. NPPC urges Congress to fix Prop 12.
▶ 0:24:40We ask that you support Chairman Thompson's efforts to reign in the state's attempt to regulate interstate commerce, restore the sovereignty of states to deal with their own businesses, and abide by our internal obligations. I'm happy to answer any of your questions today.
▶ 0:24:57Mr. Hord, thank you so much for your testimony. Uh, Mr. Skyderman, please begin when you're ready. Thank you, Chairman Thompson, Ranking Member Craig, and House Egg Committee to allow me to testify on this important issue. Sou County, where I live, is consistently one of the top pork producing counties in the United States, and Iowa accounts for nearly 40% of all hog production in this country. I've been farming and raising pigs all my life. I was born and raised on a pharaoh to finish operation and continued to pharaoh pigs until 2018.
▶ 0:25:27I've witnessed firsthand the advancements and improvements in our industry that prioritizes responsible production and animal well-being. I have raised hogs in all types of environments and my life experiences provide a unique perspective to understand the negative consequences of initiatives like California's Prop 12 for both farmers and consumers. I am confident that US pork production is more sustainable and humane than ever before.
▶ 0:25:51Our responsible industry growth resulted from stakeholders coming together from producers to veterinarians to animal health and behavioral experts. It's the result of our pursuit of continuous improvement and seeking ways to provide our pigs the best possible environment. New technologies like computer thermostats and devices that measure both the volume and air movement in a hog barn are resources we use to ensure the maximum comfort of our pigs. In northwest Iowa, our climate can be extreme.
▶ 0:26:17Modern climate controlled barns allow pigs to live comfortably year round with access to fresh water, controlled feed, and real-time monitoring to provide the best customized environment and care. The most important thing I've learned from a lifetime of raising pigs is that it's critical for producers to have full control over the environment in which their pigs are raised. Lacking control to tailor our farm to best serve the animals needs is one of the biggest problems with Prop 12.
▶ 0:26:41When the rates at which barns may be stocked are determined arbitrarily, it creates e economic hardship for the producer and can be detrimental to the pigs themselves. The decision of how many pigs to put in a barn at any given time in a production cycle should be left to the owners and managers of these farms who have the knowledge and experience. Prop 12 regulation centers around housing requirements of breeding stock. Management and husbandry of swine breeding stock is an area rife with misconceptions and misinformation.
▶ 0:27:09The intent behind giving s more room to move around has good intention but creates several challenges challenges and unintended consequences. Our efforts have always revolved around three principles. One, the comfort of the animal. Two, the productivity of the animal. And three, the health and safety of the stockman. We've learned that confinement of breeding females has proven to be the best mix of those three principles. One thing that must be understood in the housing conversation is the everchanging group dynamic of female breeding herds.
▶ 0:27:37Often sows on the lowest runs of the social hierarchy are pushed away from feed and water and in many cases they will be targeted and can be physically harmed by others in the group. Production systems have evolved with this reality in mind to provide the ve best animal care. That social hierarchy, excuse me, that social hierarchy and behavior has real impacts for both animal welfare and farmer profitability.
▶ 0:28:04It can mean the difference between a female that produces 15 pigs in one litter versus a female that has only five or in many cases will end up aborting her entire litter altogether. The safety and survivability of piglets is a top priority. Proper housing of an expectant female significantly impacts her offspring and number of healthy piglets. From years of experience and lessons learned raising pigs, the pork industry founding stalls to be the best method for both nursing s and their baby pigs.
▶ 0:28:31The stalls help confine the mother while providing large comfortable areas for the newborn baby pigs to lay down and rest. Comfort confinement of the SA at this point is critical to the survival of her piglets. When making animal housing decisions, we must also consider the safety of the farmer and other herd caretakers. The sheer size of SSO poses a risk to the stockman when undertaking everyday herd management activities.
▶ 0:28:54Breeding females also become more aggressive during the breeding and fing time periods, the times when the most direct management is Regulation dictating how SAS are housed and managed during these parts of the production cycle add significant safety risk to the animals and caretakers. These housing decisions must stay on the farm with the people that know their animals best. Some consumers demand products that require premium pricing to compensate for less efficient production methods. While at the same time, many consumers have limited household budgets and are looking for affordable protein.
▶ 0:29:24When given flexibility in production, the pork industry can accommodate both. Spending my entire life raising pigs in a variety of waste, I'm convinced it's best to allow production methods and consumption demands to take shape in the open market as opposed to arbitrarily shaping them through poorly worded and short-sighted ballot initiatives. We need Congress to pass a fix to the Prop 12 issue, and we're asking you to protect Iowa farmers from overreach from initiatives that seek to harm animal agriculture and that increase the cost of animal protein to the consumer.
▶ 0:29:54Thank you to the committee for the time,
▶ 0:29:57Mr. Cman. Thank you so much for your testimony. Uh, Miss Cook, please begin when you're ready.
▶ 0:30:04Good morning, Chairman Thompson, Ranking Member Craig, and members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to testify today. My name is Holly Cook, and I'm an economist with the National Pork Producers Council, which represents 42 affiliated state pork associations and fights for reasonable public policy while protecting the livelihood of America's pork producers. I hold a master's degree in agricultural economics from Iowa State University.
▶ 0:30:30And while I'm a current resident of Washington DC, I grew up on a fair to finish hog farm in Northeast Iowa, where my family continues actively farming today. I'm here this morning to discuss the economic impacts of California's Proposition 12 and the implications that a conflicting state-by-state patchwork of regulations would have on the US pork industry. Pork producers have faced many challenges in recent years, including a period of severe financial losses that by some measures was the worst in our industry's history.
▶ 0:30:58From late 2022 to early 2024, record high production costs and lower hog prices, resulted in an average loss of $29 on each hog sold, equating to billions of dollars in loss equity across the industry. While margins have improved in 2025 and many farms are continuing to recover financially, there is no shortage of risk facing US pork producers and their ability to make decisions and remain viable for future generations. The issues created by Prop 12 only add to the uncertainty.
▶ 0:31:27And despite recommending Congress fix Prop 12, the Supreme Court's decision has opened the door for any state to put stipulations on the sale of pork outside its borders. While California accounts for about 13% of domestic pork consumption, it is responsible for less than.1% of hog production, meaning it relies almost entirely on outofstate farmers to supply compliant products. As expected, compliance with Prop 12 raises the cost of production at the farm level.
▶ 0:31:56While becoming compliant looks different for each individual farm, every approach comes with costs. For farms with group pen gestation systems, converting barns to be compliant may mean a 30 to 40% decline in production, a result of having fewer sows combined with reduced efficiencies. Farms may also face higher average costs for utilities, veterinary care, labor, and feed. And they'll have to spread their fixed costs out over fewer wean pigs produced. Producers now also face decisions when replacing old barns and constructing new facilities.
▶ 0:32:27Because new Prop 12 compliant barns cost more per SA than other housing styles, producers would need to receive a premium of $5 to 8 on every pig sold for 15 years just to break even and would need as much as $20 per pig to make them no worse off than investing in other housing systems. These estimates come from a study by economists at Iowa State University and the University of Minnesota. The current environment not only threatens the certainty and sufficiency of premiums, but it also increases the risk of future investment decisions.
▶ 0:32:56With higher costs at the farm level, combined with segmentation costs throughout the supply chain, it is no surprise that Prop 12 has also resulted in significantly higher prices for California consumers. A study by economists at the University of California, Davis, estimated that after a transition period, Prop 12's long run outcome would be 8% higher pork prices and a 6% decline in California's consumption of covered pork cuts, resulting in a $320 million hit to consumers each year.
▶ 0:33:24So far, Prop 12's impact has been even greater. A report by USDA economists showed that in the first eight months of implementation, prices for covered products increased by 20% on average due to Prop 12 with pork loin seeing an even greater increase at It's been more than a year since that report was released and updated scanner data shows that these trends continue to hold. Retail prices in California are still over 20% higher than before Prop 12 took effect while the total sales volume is down by double digits.
▶ 0:33:54This means Californians are now spending more but consuming less pork. While Californians are seeing the impacts today, one study found that if the entire industry were required to adopt a system like Prop 12, it would reduce total US consumer welfare by 41 billion over 15 years, disproportionately impacting price-sensitive highport consuming households. It's also critical to recognize that compliance is more feasible for larger farms that can more easily offset costs and secure the needed capital.
▶ 0:34:23Widespread adoption of Prop 12- like measures would almost certainly hasten the closing of doors for small to medium-sized farms or at the very least result in a greater percentage of US SAS being owned by fewer farms. In closing, NPPC urges Congress to fix the challenges created by Prop 12 and deliver muchneeded certainty to US pork producers. Thank you for the opportunity to share my expertise and I welcome your questions.
▶ 0:34:47Miss Cook, thank you so much for your testimony. Uh Mr. Kushman, please uh begin when you're ready.
▶ 0:34:54Chairman Thompson, Ranking Member Craig, and members of the committee. My name is Travis Kushman. I'm the deputy general counsel for litigation and public policy at the American Farm Bureau Federation. I'm honored to provide this testimony today on behalf of Farm Bureau members across the nation. Along with the National Pork Producers Council, I spent the better part of four years litigating Farm Bureau's challenge to California Proposition 12. Our legal challenge was based on a constitutional doctrine called the dormant commerce clause.
▶ 0:35:21The doctrine states that because Congress has the exclusive power to regulate interstate commerce, states do not. In short, states are prohibited from substantially burdening interstate commerce through their own laws and regulations. For those looking for a deeper dive on the issue, I encourage you to read the Biden administration Supreme Court brief supporting our Farmier's efforts resulted in a Supreme Court decision that is so convoluted, so confusing, and so contradictory that no one can articulate the state of the dormant commerce clause today or how
▶ 0:35:52court should proceed with similar claims. As you know, you need five of the nine justices to agree with you to win a case. Six justices agreed with our legal theory, and five agree that we'd established enough facts to win on that claim. An easy win, right? Not quite. Because of the way we count votes at the Supreme Court, our farmers lost. The resulting fractured 5-4 decision lacks a unifying rationale. The makeup of the four dissenting justices was also remarkable.
▶ 0:36:22This is the only case where Justice Jackson and Chief Justice Roberts have ever desented together. In 2023, 25% of Chief Justice Roberts and half of Justice Kavanaaugh's descents were in our case. I want to emphasize six justices from across the ideological spectrum agreed the constitution protects against states bulcanizing the country's markets and five agreed that we'd establish such a claim.
▶ 0:36:46In the aftermath of the case, judges have disagreed on how to interpret the ruling and legal scholars have called the result a paradox and a mess, but a good deal more troubling than the ordinary mess. And that's what leaves us in the legal quagmire we are here to address today. One thing is clear from the case. The United States Congress is the branch of government with responsibility now to address the problem of states imposing their production laws on other states. Farmers today face a growing risk of being subject to overlapping or conflicting mandates from multiple states.
▶ 0:37:17While Prop 12 requires 24 square ft of space per cell, another state could shift the requirement after investments have been made to 25 square ft or 30 square feet, causing what Secretary Bilsac referred to in front of this committee in February 2024 as chaos in the marketplace. Or as Secretary Rollins stated at a recent House Appropriations hearing, as not sustainable.
▶ 0:37:39This forces farmers into the impossible position of retrofitting their barns, which they not may not be able to afford to do, and go against their own animal husbandry experience and advice of their veterinarians. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the American Farm Bureau Federation appreciates your leadership in addressing the turmoil created by Proposition 12 and the bipartisan farm bill that passed out of this committee last Congress.
▶ 0:38:01When a single state can condition access to its market on compliance with production mandates that override the judgment of veterinarians, farmers, and experts nationwide, Congress must act. This is not a theoretical concern. It is already harming farmers, confusing the courts, and threatening the viability of a national food system. The language that this committee passed in the 2024 Farm Bill restores clarity, restores congressional authority over interstate commerce, and protects both producers and consumers from a patchwork of conflicting mandates.
▶ 0:38:30And Farm Bureau looks forward to working with Congress to pass a farm bill soon that will address the interstate commerce issue. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to answering your
▶ 0:38:42Mr. Kushman, thank you so much for your testimony. Miss Roa, please uh begin when you're ready. Good morning, Chairman Thompson and Ranking Member Craig and all the members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to testify before you today. My name is Lily Roachcha. I am a lifelong Angelino and the executive director of the Latino Restaurant Association based in Los Angeles.
▶ 0:39:04The LRA represents thousands of small family-owned Latino restaurants who are the cornerstone of their communities, primarily in Southern California, but also nationally. The LRA is a member of the Food Equity Alliance, a California coalition fighting for accessible and affordable food for all. I'm also the president of the Latino Food Industry Association, a national association that serves grocerers, distributors, food service providers, vendors, and other important businesses in Latino markets across the industry.
▶ 0:39:34We also host the Latino Food Industry Trade Show, Trade Expo, the largest convention for our industry, set for October 13th and 14th in beautiful Long Beach, California. You're all invited. Happy to host anyone who would like to come out. I'm here today to explain the harm Proposition 12 inflicts on minority owned businesses and lowincome families. Harm is what Prop 12 has caused, smashing like a wrecking ball the livelihoods of small restaurants and the communities we serve.
▶ 0:40:01By disrupting supply chains and driving up the cost of culturally vital foods like pork, it's brought economic devastation to families already stretched thin. This law's requirements, costly segregation, and certification processes are a death sentence for small businesses operating on razor thin margins. The restaurants I represent serve workingclass neighborhoods that can't absorb skyrocketing prices.
▶ 0:40:25In addition, Prop 12 is the most recent of many costly regulations that these small businesses, in particular, restaurants are being asked to absorb. Pork loins are up 40 41%. Bacon 16%. A carnitas taco once a $1.50 now costs5 to$6 dollars. Pricing out loyal customers who rely on these meals not just for sustenance but for cultural connection. Our restaurants face a brutal choice. Raise prices prices and lose customers.
▶ 0:40:53Shrink portions and sacrifice quality or remove pork dishes entirely, erasing cultural traditions that define our identity. This is not a hypothetical. This is actually happening today for our Latino restaurants. Carnitas are not just a meal. They are part of our heritage. Latino communities are top consumers of pork in this country. Overregulation that takes food off the plate risks alienating communities and driving businesses toward closure. This isn't a menu change.
▶ 0:41:23It's a cultural Some claim the market has adjusted to Prop 12, but that's a fantasy spun by those blind to the struggles of small businesses and workingclass families in National chains can leverage their resources and cost advantages to secure compliant pork. However, pork prices are still going up. My members, of which 65% own less than 10 locations, are small familyrun restaurants and grocerers that don't have that luxury.
▶ 0:41:53They can't negotiate bulk contracts or spread costs across nationwide operations. Worse, compliant pork is often impossible for them to source. The small independent distributors they rely on, unlike those serving big chains, can't secure steady supplies. Many small businesses are forced to buy pork at retail from other from the very chains they compete against, paying inflated prices, and marking up prices just to survive. This vicious cycle erodess profits, threatens closures, and raises costs for struggling communities.
▶ 0:42:24In my opinion, Prop 12 wasn't the will of all consumers. It was bankrolled by those with an agenda who leveraged the convoluted ballot measure process where California voters could not have known all of the impacts. Former USDA Secretary Tom Vilsac and current Secretary Brooke Rollins have warned of supply chain chaos. And they are right. Sales are down and prices are up.
▶ 0:42:45Without intervention, this law will continue to dismantle the cultural and economic fabric of communities, leaving families without access to their heritage and businesses on the brink of collapse. Thank you for your attention to this critical issue. I'm very happy to answer any questions. Thank you,
▶ 0:43:03Mr. Roer. Thank you so much for your testimony. Mrs. Dow Lashment, please uh begin when you're ready.
▶ 0:43:10Chairman Thompson, Ranking Member Craig, and members of the committee. I'm honored to testify before you today on this important issue. My name is Tiffany Dowel Lashmittz. I'm a professor and extension specialist in agricultural law with Texas A&M Agro Life Extension. I focus my work on legal issues impacting rural land owners and agricultural producers. As is true in my professional role, I am here today to offer an objective, unbiased view of the law as it surrounds this issue.
▶ 0:43:39I am not here to offer my opinion as to the wisdom of Proposition 12, the Supreme Court opinion in National Pork Producers Ros versus Ross, or any proposed legislative enactments related to Proposition 12. I believe it is important to understand that there are, as is true with many issues, agricultural interests on all sides of the Proposition 12 debate. Certainly, there are agricultural producers, groups, and businesses in favor of congressional action to overturn Prop 12.
▶ 0:44:08Similarly, there are agricultural producers, groups, and businesses strongly against Congress taking such action, many of whom have already gone to the expense to comply after Prop 12 was passed and upheld by the United States Supreme Court. I've spent my career explaining complex and often contentious legal issues to farmers and ranchers in an unbiased, neutral manner, and I trust that that experience will aid me in doing the same here today.
▶ 0:44:35The United States Constitution grants Congress the right to regulate commerce between the states. There's little doubt that should Congress wish to do so, it could pass a nationwide law related to the sale of products under specific living conditions. The United States Supreme Court recently noted it noted as much in its consideration of Proposition 12. States have traditionally handled animal welfare issues, including the passage of laws related to production within their jurisdiction.
▶ 0:45:03California took these laws a step further by passing AB1 1437 and Proposition 12, applying California confinement standards to in-state producers and containing a sales ban provision prohibiting producers uh prohibiting products not complying with these standards from being sold in California. regardless of the state or country where animals were raised.
▶ 0:45:28Opponents turned to the courts filing lawsuits against this salesband provision of Prop 12, relying principally on an alleged violation of the dormant commerce clause. The dormant commerce clause theory posits that the commerce clause not only vests Congress with the power to regulate trade and commerce between the states but also contains a negative command prohibiting the enforcement of certain state laws even when Congress has failed to legislate in an area.
▶ 0:45:55In the challenge to Proposition 12 in National Port Producers Council versus Ross, the lower courts dismissed the dormant commerce clause claim and the United States Supreme Court affirmed that dismissal. Justice Gorsuch wrote the opinion for the court. While certain portions of the court's analysis were unanimous, others were fractured and complicated to parse.
▶ 0:46:16When struggling to explain this complex ruling to producers, I have frequently reminded myself not even all nine Supreme Court justices could get on the same page about how to properly legally analyze Proposition 12. In summary, the court upheld Prop 12 against the dormant commerce clause challenge. Given the nature of the opinion, however, the broader takeaway and likely application to future cases is far more difficult to analyze and predict.
▶ 0:46:44There have been other relevant cases challenging Prop 12 and the similar Massachusetts law question three, both based on dormant commerce clause and other legal grounds outlined in my written testimony that may offer additional guidance. Finally, there have been a number of proposed bills here in Congress that would essentially invalidate laws like Proposition 12.
▶ 0:47:05These proposals vary greatly in scope, breadth, and potential There is no doubt that this issue is important to agricultural producers across the country. Livestock producers in particular find themselves on both sides of the debate. Congress has the authority pursuant to the commerce clause to act in this area. Whether to do so or how to undertake such an effort is a matter of considerable complexity.
▶ 0:47:31In the absence of congressional action or unexpected movement in the judiciary, state laws such as Prop 12 will likely continue to remain in effect and other states will remain free to pass additional laws relating to products that are offered for sale in their state, no matter where they are produced. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today and I look forward to answering any questions you may have.
▶ 0:47:55Mrs. Dasman, uh, thank you so much for your testimony. At this time, members will be recognized for questions in order of seniority, alternating between majority minority members and order of arrival for those who joined us after the hearing convened. You'll be recognized for five minutes each in order to allow us to get to as many questions as possible. and I recognize myself for five five minutes.
▶ 0:48:19Miss Cook, your testimony briefly mentions the potential consequences of a patchwork of conflicting production standards across the country. Can you tell us as an economist what you would expect to happen to pork producers and the pork industry as a whole if numerous states began developing different production standards?
▶ 0:48:40Thank you for the question. Pork producers today are already subject to a significant amount of risk when it comes to the production and marketing of their animals. In a situation like you described, we would likely be seeing a much greater percentage of producers required to undertake costly investments and changes. And so that can have an impact at the farm level, but as far as our industry, it could impact our structure as well and may be a factor in fewer farms being able to own SAS.
▶ 0:49:06Thank you so much, Mr. Kushman. Some people in this town have decided to run with a narrative that the Supreme Court has already ruled on this case and therefore there's nothing left to be uh that needs to be done. Can you walk us through the uh what the Supreme Court ruling actually said and especially Justice Gorsuch's commentary on the role Congress can play here?
▶ 0:49:27Thank you so much.
▶ 0:49:30Thank you so much Chairman Thompson. Uh yes uh the narrative that uh uh the Supreme Court has already ruled and the issue is settled is is not entirely true. What essentially Justice Gorsuch said is he's punting the judiciary is punting the issue to Congress which he felt was the most appropriate branch of government to handle the issue. Uh Justice Gorsuch believed and along with Justice Thomas uh and justice Barrett that the judiciary was not the appropriate branch to handle uh these kinds of claims. They felt that the dormant commerce clause did not go as far as we believed it did in uh substantially burdening interstate commerce.
▶ 0:50:01Uh as you know you need five justices to win a case. Uh we had four justices that fully agreed with us on on the law and the facts. Uh two justices in the majority uh justices uh Kagan and uh Sayor believe that we not prove the factual predicate to establish this claim. They agreed with us in the law but not in the facts.
▶ 0:50:19Justice Barrett wrote separately to say that she did not agree with us in the law, but uh targeting justices Smayor and Kagan said that we clearly did establish the factual predicate to establish that kind of a claim if they believed such a claim did exist. Uh but in short, Justice Gorsuch writing for the majority of the fractured opinion did say that uh the dormant commerce clause as we saw it not provide us relief that if we did uh view this as a concern uh Congress would be the appropriate body to handle this
▶ 0:50:47Thank you so much Mr. Horde. Your testimony notes that you've been a full-time pork producer since 1987, so you know the uncertainties farmers face with volatile markets, weather conditions, and regulatory burdens. Given the Supreme Court ruling, do you worry that similar state mandates will keep popping up across the country? Uh even though you've uh complied partially with Prop 12, will you be able to survive if the goalposts keep moving?
▶ 0:51:17Thank you, Chairman Thompson. Uh, yes, this isn't a concern for for our farm in Ohio. We have already experienced the goalpost being moved. Uh, in 2010, our uh producers in Ohio agreed to a group housing plan um for SAS uh under the Ohio Care Standards Board.
▶ 0:51:37In 2024, we made the decision to modify a barn that was previously converted to the Ohio the potential of a patchwork of another 49 states is causing me uh to make and causing me to make additional changes is a major concern for our our family's uh
▶ 0:51:58U thank you Mr. Horde. I yield back the balance of my time and I recognize the ranking member from Minnesota for five
▶ 0:52:09Thank you so much. Um, Miss Lashmat, I saw the letter this morning from USDA to my colleagues on Prop 12 raising prices in California for pork. Talk to me a little bit about uh beyond consumer prices. I know there are a number of other issues that uh this body must consider. Various legislative proposals would preempt Prop 12. How could those different proposals impact other state laws?
▶ 0:52:36I'm just trying to get a sense of if we preempt Prop 12, you know, what what happens in other states to their
▶ 0:52:44Sure. One, in typical lawyer fashion, I think I'm going to tell you that it depends specifically on the language of the proposal that Congress uh work passed and the specific state laws at issue. So, if we look particularly at the language that was included in the farm bill, that language was much narrower than the language that was proposed in the Eats Act, for example.
▶ 0:53:03And so I think it really depends on the specific language of the congressional action, the breadth of the um definitions included in those actions and the once we figure out that language, you can see the number of uh state laws that could potentially be impacted. I have seen a study from Harvard looking specifically at the Eats Act and the estimates there were that it could preempt a number of existing state laws. I know in my own state of Minnesota, I think it was somewhere around 40 state laws that could be impacted uh the language in the Eats Act.
▶ 0:53:33Um Miss Lash, there are producers obviously on both sides of this issue. In your estimation, how many producers have converted their operations to become compliant? And if Congress were to preempt Prop 12, what would happen to the producers who have already invested to become Prop 12 compliant? Admittedly, I don't have uh uh individual knowledge of the number of producers that have uh complied with Prop 12.
▶ 0:53:59I did see the letter from USDA this morning and that indicated that USDA believes it's about 27% of producers have made those changes. Uh the ch the impact on them if Proposition 12 were to be preempted by federal law, uh rights that they've got the sunk cost of having already invested in making those uh expensive and complicated changes to their operations. Uh, and if the law changes at that point, they likely would feel that they had um done that with no need, right? An unnecessary uh investment in those
▶ 0:54:28Thank you. Uh, I wonder if uh I could hear from the rest of the panel on that question. Uh, what happens to producers that have already invested to become Prop 12 compliant if we preempt it? Miss
▶ 0:54:42is there any concern with that? Um from a consumer perspective um our concern would be in the pricing of course. So that would be something that you know we're looking at um increasing prices for not just the consumer but also for um restaurant owners who actually purchase the product. That's
▶ 0:55:00Mr. Kushman.
▶ 0:55:02Yeah. Thank you for the question. Uh this kind of a a law would not uh require those farmers that have changed operations to change back. It would not make it illegal for them to continue farming that way and serving whatever markets do want to purchase those products and really provide farmers a choice on on how they would proceed going forward. And importantly, it protect those farmers that have made the change from any future changes that another state might have by enacting another law that's contradictory to Prop 12 or further uh move the goalpost further than what Prop 12 did.
▶ 0:55:30And finally, protect current farmers that are not compliant with Prop 12 to be able to serve markets across the country. Miss Cook,
▶ 0:55:38thank you. I would begin by saying producers who are currently compliant will be the best position to continue serving markets, excuse me, where there's a demonstrated demand for those products. But additionally, producers compliant and not compliant have a shared concern about a patchwork and the future risk to investments in the pork
▶ 0:55:55Mr. Schulman,
▶ 0:55:57thanks for the question. I would agree with uh what Holly said in terms of the market demand and I would defer over to uh Patrick with his experience in the conversion of their operation.
▶ 0:56:06Mr. Hort.
▶ 0:56:09Yeah. Uh thank you uh uh Congresswoman. I uh as I as I thought about it, you know, I I I appreciate I hopefully you can appreciate the challenge I'm in because I have made some conversions, but the the fact of the matter is is me sitting here saying the the patchwork is a big concern for uh for for me personally as well as our industry of the continued potential of 49 additional states making mandates and it's uh become
▶ 0:56:39uh as my experience and I mentioned uh in my question earlier. It's it's a challenge for us and we would uh so that's that's why we're we're looking at uh the uh opportunity to um yeah discontinue the patchwork is is is what a a big challenge for us.
▶ 0:57:00Thank you, Mr. Horde. Thank you to the panel. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I'll yield back.
▶ 0:57:04Thank you, Ranking Member Craig. And I recognize myself for five minutes. Mr. for the uh the people who support Proposition 12 uh have started the narrative that any fix to this mess that's been created by it would would help China somehow. Um your testimony, you know, touches on this.
▶ 0:57:27Do you believe that a fix to Proposition 12 um would help China or do you believe that will help Americans farmers and ranchers and consumers? Yeah, thank you for the question. Uh I think this is a a US pork industry uh concern um from the smallest producer to um the larger ones.
▶ 0:57:50And so no, I I I do not think this is this is in any ways helps uh any our foreign um in fact they're our foreign training partners are concerned about this um and and I think at times could be um looked at as an advantage um for uh other countries. So we um but yeah that's that's kind of how um as national producing what we we think about that.
▶ 0:58:15Thank you Mr. Horde. Mr. Kushman, I'm going to come to you, but I want to read this section of section 1207 of uh the farm bill that in general producers of covered livestock have a federal right to raise and market their covered livestock in interstate commerce and therefore no state or subdivision thereof may enact or enforce directly or indirectly a condition or standard on the production of covered livestock other than for covered livestock physically raised in such state or subdivision.
▶ 0:58:43Now, we concede that they have the right to do what they have the right to put those stipulations on producers in their state. Uh, but from the legal side of things, do you have any concern that that that section of the Farm Food and National Security Act of 2024 will somehow give China unfettered access to our agricultural
▶ 0:59:12I mean, Mr. Cook, uh, can you explain generally how much production cost increase when a produ when a producer has to I'm sorry, Miss Cook, can you explain generally how much production cost increase when a producer converts their operation to comply with Proposition 12? Uh, are these cost impacts along the rest of the supply chain to processors and retailers, for example? U, and if so, what are they?
▶ 0:59:39Thank you for the question. As with anything, the exact cost number will vary depending on the individual farm and their situation. But looking at the cost of constructing compliant facilities, that can increase fixed costs anywhere from 20 to 40% per pig. But we're also seeing higher operating costs, things like labor, feed, veterinary care, utilities. Those can increase 15% when converting to Proposition 12. And then we also may have to spread those out over fewer pigs due to the productivity impacts of Prop 12. Uh so that's on the farm level side.
▶ 1:00:08And there are certainly costs across the supply chain, packing, processing, distribution, and retail, all of the segregation and tracing and things like that. I don't have specific data on that topic, but th those are certainly significant and should be considered as
▶ 1:00:21Ultimately, any business has to have more dollars in than they have going out. And when the government passes rules and regulations that increase the cost of of operations, whether it be in the construction of facilities, as it is here for um swine, I mean, if the farmer can't get their money back somehow, then the farmer goes broke.
▶ 1:00:45I mean, and I think that's the problem when you have people who uh either don't understand business or don't support agriculture or America's ability to feed itself uh continue to imply these additional burdens on the producers. Ultimately, the consumer has to pay uh or the or the producer goes out of business. I think Miss Rosha, this was effectively your your comments, correct?
▶ 1:01:11I mean, if you increase the price of pork to the restaurant chain, if the consumer can't afford to pay for the product, then the product's no longer available. Your restaurant goes out of business. Is that correct?
▶ 1:01:25Yes, that's my point exactly. And that is um we're we're seeing that um already just based on other regulations. So, this would be yet another regulation on top of those that would affect the restaurants. And
▶ 1:01:38and you you somewhat alluded to this. Are you a resident of California?
▶ 1:01:42Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm a resident of California. Yes.
▶ 1:01:44And so, and so California has public initiative. A lot of things go on the ballot, but do you think that the general public who voted on this understood what the end result was of this ballot measure when they voted to put it in place? Um I believe that um the law as well intentioned as it was um I feel that the voters um could not have known the impacts and we see that a lot with our um similar regulations.
▶ 1:02:09So like I said I don't think that the voters could have known the impacts of Prop 12.
▶ 1:02:18My my time is expired. I now recognize thank you all for your testimony and answering the questions. I now recognize uh Chairman David Scott from the great state of Georgia.
▶ 1:02:28Thank you, Chairman. We have before us one of the most challenging issues that this committee is faced with. We got to guarantee that the livestock is raised safely and humanely on one hand and at the same time ensure that farmers and ranchers can be successful in operating their businesses.
▶ 1:02:58But there's something a little deeper here. We have a substantial burden on our interstate commerce and the implications that this may have on the producers.
▶ 1:03:13So, Miss Lamett, testimony was very effective because you placed a great deal of emphasis on expanding what some of our did not believe Proposition 12 placed a substantial burden.
▶ 1:03:40I want you to get into this a little bit because we have to be clear going into this. We got the producers on one hand. We got our farmers and ranchers on the other hand. We got to come together. We got to solve this problem.
▶ 1:04:02But in the middle of it is the Supreme help us find our way out of this
▶ 1:04:15So, I do think it's interesting that there was such a fractured opinion. It came from the Supreme Court and they struggled with the exact question that you're asking here. And if you look at the opinion, one of the big issues is whether or not there was a substantial burden on interstate commerce due to the language of Proposition 12 being enacted in California. I think one important note, it's kind of technical, but I do think it matters, is that the Supreme Court was reviewing a decision on a motion to dismiss, which is a 12B6 motion.
▶ 1:04:45What that means is there was no discovery conducted in the case. And so they were really relying completely on just the pleadings in the case for the facts. And so I do think it's questionable if there was an additional factual record that had been developed through discovery. Uh if that could have added more to the analysis of the substantial burden with what the court had. What they decided was five justices actually did say that there was a substantial burden adequately alleged. Four justices said that there were not.
▶ 1:05:15Um and then as Mr. Mr. Kushman explained given that Justice Barrett did not believe in weighing the the burdens that the outcome of the case uh was different than that 5 to4 ruling on substantial
▶ 1:05:27Now specifically do what to what extent do increased producers costs constitute a substantial burden? As the court mentioned,
▶ 1:05:41the court did look at the increased cost on producers and the increased cost on consumers when they were weighing the potential uh substantial burden analysis in the case. So I think the court would say that it does have a factor in that
▶ 1:05:55Now are there uh other considerations similarly weighed when arriving at this decision? So when the court looks at substantial burden, it looks um at a wide variety of considerations and those do include the increased cost on the producer, the increased cost on the consumer. Um the costs that may be spread out uh amongst the industry as a whole, right? It's not just the producer and the consumer that face the cost.
▶ 1:06:23All along the supply chain, there are increased difficulties and increased costs uh when you add additional regulations like Prop 12. The court took all of that into consideration. Now finally, how do courts compare the local interest in a law and the impact on interstate commerce?
▶ 1:06:45I is there a subjective nature to this decision which can lead to varying views between different courts?
▶ 1:06:56Absolutely. There there's absolutely a subjective nature. It's called the pike balancing test is where the court weighs those two interests. It is a subjective test and here uh that's the point that three of the justices made was that the court really is not well uh able to conduct that type of subject subjective analysis where they're ba where they're having to weigh California's interest in food safety and animal welfare against economic interests that were raised by the plaintiffs in the case.
▶ 1:07:23Well, thank you for your excellent analysis of the courts. Thank you.
▶ 1:07:30Thank you, uh, Chairman Scott. Chair now recognizes Mr. Bacon for five minutes.
▶ 1:07:34Thank you very much. Appreciate you all being here today. I tend to agree with the Supreme Court decision. It's not their role to regulate interstate commerce, but it is our role. And it seems to me that we can't have 50 state standards when it comes to pork or anything else like this. Uh, it's not fair to the producers. It's not fair to the processors and and the consumers. My first question is to Mr. Horde and Mrs. Cook.
▶ 1:07:56I appreciate all the cost analysis that you've been given, but if we could put it down to the most basic level, if you go to the supermarket, how much more in percentage wise will a consumer pay because of this rule? What will be the increase to the cost of pork?
▶ 1:08:14On average AC across covered products, it's 20%.
▶ 1:08:17A 20% increase for consumers. And I think, you know, there's we come from all different parts of the country, but for a low-inccome earner, a 20% increase in pork is terrible. And that's what we're doing here. And it doesn't just stop with California. Other states could do be doing similar things. I we've heard of others. So, I think it is in our role here to get our arms around this and set a a one standard uh for the Mr.
▶ 1:08:45Uh Shootman, how hard is it to comply as a far you you raise hogs? What do you have what would you have to do to comply with this on your farm?
▶ 1:08:56I think that's going to vary based on the facility. We've got several different spaces and types of facilities. And you know, the costs have been quoted 35 to 400 to $4,500 per SA. Um I think that could be on the low end depending on the the type of facility you have. if you have to move concrete, if it's simply just replacing inside infrastructure. Um, so it's going to vary, but it's going to be a cost and and the question on our side is will we recoup the cost?
▶ 1:09:21And um with the uncertainty of uh of the the potential patchwork without that solid um if every state's going to rule, we just don't know where to go with it.
▶ 1:09:32Would it cost you more than $50,000 to
▶ 1:09:35modify your your operation to comply?
▶ 1:09:37Pretty easily more. Yes.
▶ 1:09:39So maybe 100,000. I mean that just that's that's an incredible cost to each individual farmer. I know it varies based on the size, but I just think we have to realize this is what we're asking individual farmers to to to do to comply with this. Uh Mr. Kushman, are we at risk of having 50 state standards that people have to comply
▶ 1:10:04Uh yes, we are. And that was one of the biggest concerns American Farm Bureau had about this law and one of the reasons we decided to sue California on it. Uh currently we run the risk of states constantly moving the goalpost on what farmers need to do. So have to make those investments. They they have it changed again. Uh the risk of states enacting a patchwork of legislation like that is and kind of mucking up the system that is that threat of creating those kind of co-like disruptions we saw to the food supply system. And we are very very concerned about that.
▶ 1:10:32And the courts, if I understood it, the Supreme Court said it wasn't it it's not its role to force a standard. It is our role. Is that right? It was a very difficult decision to understand and read. Uh that is in essence what the court said um was that three justices believed that it was not uh the judiciary's role to to weigh in. Uh two justices did not think we had uh established that burden to do so.
▶ 1:10:58Um, so the way the makeup works, we had six that would have taken the case, five that agreed with our factual predicates. Uh, but the ruling we have left over is essentially yes, that it is now the ball is in Congress's court to fix the
▶ 1:11:12As a lawyer, that's our constitutional role is to regulate interstate commerce.
▶ 1:11:16That's correct. Uh, Mr. Hord, uh, I wanted to clarify something that you you brought up. You said that this rule for Cal this California proposition in reality really helps the big farmer but the small farmer is hurt the most. Is that is that do I get that right?
▶ 1:11:34Um no I didn't I didn't say that. that I just said that that a lot of times uh larger farmers have the opportunity to uh to have the capital and the ability to take the risk on a percentage of their production where a smaller producer may um not have that same access to capital and the ability to take the risk that comes because of the uncertainty of of what we're discussing here today.
▶ 1:12:01Thanks for your clarification. I'll just close and just repeat the you know the start the beginning question. A 20% increase in port that is a tremendous cost on the consumer at all levels of income. So thank you with that I yield.
▶ 1:12:16Thank you Mr. B chair and I recognizes Mr. McGovern for five minutes.
▶ 1:12:19Well thank you Mr. chair and I'm going to u begin as I began yesterday with my questioning and and saying and say that uh this committee should be holding hearings on the impacts that the big ugly bill which is now law are going to have on nutrition programs. I mean we should be having before us right now experts uh heads of food pantries and food banks.
▶ 1:12:41We ought to have people with lived experience who rely on these nutrition programs u about what will happen uh when the big ugly bill forces millions of people off a snap. Uh you know 42 million people are going to see their benefits cut. We're told that 5 million people, older adults, veterans, families with teenagers, former foster youth um are at serious risk of losing their benefits outright. Um this what what Republicans did in this committee uh on reconciliation I believe is unconscionable.
▶ 1:13:10uh all to fund and offset the cost of tax cuts for multi-millionaires and billionaires. Um and it should be the focus of this committee to end hunger in this country and not make it worse. Uh and by the way, ending hunger is good for the American farmers, too. They produce the food that is purchased with SNAP and that's where our focus should be. Now, brings me to today's hearing.
▶ 1:13:32Uh, I'm astounded that we're taking what little time we have before the August recess to once again have Republicans use Prop 12 as a punching bag to distract from corporate consolidation um, in the meat sector. You know, we have gone around in circles over Prop 12 and other states anti-animal cruelty laws for years and the largest pork producers are not happy. Uh, that 66% of all Americans oppose confinement rates. That's from a Harris poll, by the way.
▶ 1:14:01uh they went all the way to the Supreme Court a few years ago uh with an unconstitutional argument that undermined the most basic concepts of federalism. They lost and now instead of moving on and so many family farmers as as so many family farmers have done by the way uh they have come to Republicans for a legislative bailout. But this hearing will not get them closer to overturning Proposition 12. And that's because this hearing is an intentional misrepresentation of reality.
▶ 1:14:27The reality is that Prop 12 took effect at the beginning of last year and the fear-mongering has fallen flat. Farmers in Iowa have not been forced to go crate free if they don't want to. Grocery shelves are not empty. The egg industry actively supports Prop 12's cagefree requirements. Major re retailers and restaurants support Prop 12.
▶ 1:14:48And many pig farmers, especially the 82% of pig farmers who have fewer than 500 pigs, are now benefiting from the new market opportunities for humanely raised meat. Now, a lot of good has come from these state laws, and Republicans still want everyone to believe that state laws to make sure pigs have enough room to turn around, as most Americans want, are some sort of Marxist plot against the hardland. And this leads me to the greatest misrepresentation uh of all today.
▶ 1:15:16There are thousands of farmers who vocally support Proposition 12, but Republicans have not given them an opportunity to speak today. With all due respect to this panel, and I appre appreciate Miss Lashmmed's neutrality, this is not a balanced panel. Um, one would think there's not another side to this argument, but some of these farmers who support Proposition 12 are here. I've met them. They're in the audience, and they deserve a voice in this conversation uh because their livelihoods are at stake. And I ask unanimous consent to insert over 150 letters, Mr.
▶ 1:15:45chairman that I received uh from many of these farmers who support Proposition 12. I ask unanimous consent to put them on the record. These farmers have been shut out of the out of this process and let the record reflect that. Republicans love to talk about regulatory certainty which I figured out is euphemism for taking away anything they don't like. What about the certainty for these farmers who have made investments to go crate free who have have followed the rules and now you want to pull the rug from under them? Let me make this as clear as possible.
▶ 1:16:15If you kill Prop 12, you have you are putting independent family farms at risk. They will not be able to shoulder the cost of going backwards the way the factory farms can. It will be get big or get out all over again. And it will be crystal clear who cheered on the corporate operators while they ate up uh the last of the family farms in America. And one final thing, when Republicans were fighting with each other over the big ugly bill, one of the most contentious issues was a provision to block states from having their own regulations on AI.
▶ 1:16:44and almost tanked the bill. Folks do not like it when people in Washington try to override local decisions and the divides among Republicans on Proposition 12 are not going to go to way. I have I have news for my Republican friends. Washington doesn't always know what is best. I respect what what our states are doing. Uh and I with that I yield back my time.
▶ 1:17:03Mr. McGovern, you made a motion to submit something for the record.
▶ 1:17:06All right, we're going to accept that without without objection. I also uh have uh a letter from the American Farm Bureau that I would like to submit for the record uh National Pork Producers Council include this and over 900 additional federal, state, and local farm organizations who write in strong support of section 12,07 of the Farm, Food, and National Security Act of 2024.
▶ 1:17:28And um I'm submitting for the record a letter from the American Veterinary uh Association who writes in strong support of section 1207 of the Farm Food and National Security Act of 2024. Um submitting that for the record uh where they oppose Proposition 12 for animal
▶ 1:17:46Mr. J, I just want to make sure all 150 of my letters are going to be in the record. Right.
▶ 1:17:50Yes, sir. Oh, thank you. If you want to
▶ 1:17:54with that, Mr. Johnson.
▶ 1:17:58Uh, Miss Cook, we've talked a fair amount today about how Proposition 12 has been a major driver of increase costs. I think 20 or 22% has been quoted today uh in California. Uh, I think you talked a little bit about how it can be $3,000 an animal to make these physical changes to the uh to the uh the the operations. Is that about right?
▶ 1:18:24It can vary. It can be up to 4,500 or more for new construction.
▶ 1:18:28And so California could change the rules again in a couple of years, right?
▶ 1:18:36Imposing a new round of capital investments uh for producers.
▶ 1:18:41We face that risk today in this environment. Yes.
▶ 1:18:44And and then you'd have what in economic terms I believe is just called a stranded cost. You get these pancaking requirements of physical improvements with really no mechanism to recover those costs in the marketplace. Is my understanding of that right?
▶ 1:18:59In theory, a producer would not undertake these investments willingly without a guarantee of a return. But in our current environment, there is no
▶ 1:19:08That uncertainty has a chilling effect on investment and new market entrance. My understanding of that's right.
▶ 1:19:16Yes. which over time is going to further inflate food prices for Americans that uh frankly deserve to have affordable protein. Is that right?
▶ 1:19:28If the impacts have the effect of um contraction and and that pressure on the industry, then certainly could increase pork prices.
▶ 1:19:36So I want to shift a little bit about uh to animal welfare either Mr. Horde or Mr. Skipman. There have been some studies quoted today. Mr. maybe I would start with you that there has not been an increase in animal welfare post Proposition 12. Is my understanding of that right?
▶ 1:19:54That is correct.
▶ 1:19:55And and in fact some mortality went up uh the need for additional antibiotics went up. Is that right?
▶ 1:20:02That's correct.
▶ 1:20:03So what are the proponents of Prop 12 missing? What do they not understand about SA behavior? What do they not understand about animal husbandry that that causes them to misfire? so dramatically on their uh their views of what uh what these animals really need to be safe and sound.
▶ 1:20:22Thank you for the question, Congressman. I think within that lies the point that um in terms of welfare, we are where we are today in our production systems because we're trying to find the best welfare for the S. And sometimes that leads us to more confinement. But truly, as we've studied things over the years, it's the best outcome for the S for her offspring all the way down the line. It's a constant moving target, but that's how we got to where we are today. It was because of animal welfare.
▶ 1:20:49So, every producer I've ever met cares about animal welfare. They understand that that is a living creature worthy of decent treatment. But let's assume that wasn't the case. Let's assume that it was just about dollars and cents. Do animals under duress thrive? Do animals under duress put on weight?
▶ 1:21:09I think that's a great question. And I think the interesting thing about a a female s herd is that if there's poor welfare, uh your pocketbook will suffer because poor welfare will lead to decreased production every time. And it's an almost an instant feedback when you're managing a breeding herd poorly to what you're going to get out at the end. So I think that's a great question. Thank you. So, so again, tier one, uh, decent humans care about animal welfare, welfare.
▶ 1:21:32But tier two, successful businessmen and successful business women care about animal welfare because, uh, an animal that is comfortable will produce better economic results. Am I
▶ 1:21:46But what else can you tell us about that? Give us a sense of, uh, how dramatically true that is in the I think one thing we discussed here recently was just how again in the production systems that we developed whether it be the breeding herd or whether it be the production herd our goal is to give every pig the same opportunity to thrive and and really um if we're doing that then our then our bottom line is in great shape too and so the big piece of that is the welfare the environment the the day-to-day management and like I
▶ 1:22:16said in my testimony if we're going to have to try to fit or try to meet an arbitrary target set by people who are away from the farm and we don't have and some of that control is taken away from us. Invariably, our ability to to do the best for that animal at any one given time could suffer.
▶ 1:22:33Proposition 12 has, according to the studies we've just discussed today, increased cost to consumers. It has reduced the viability of small family operations and it has injured animal welfare. Proposition 12 is a fantastic failure and it is time for Congress to fix that mistake. With that, Mr. Chairman, I would yield back.
▶ 1:22:58Chair now recognizes Miss Adams of North Carolina for 5 minutes.
▶ 1:23:04Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh I'd like uh first of all to ask for unanimous consent to submit into the record written testimony from ASPCA opposing overturning Proposition 12 and and other state laws. Uh, Mr. Hord, I have a question, a few yes or nos for you. Uh, are you aware that there are pork producers who are benefiting from the market created by Proposition 12?
▶ 1:23:35Was that question to me? Sorry.
▶ 1:23:36Uh, yes, Mr. Hord.
▶ 1:23:42Yeah. Yes or no, sir?
▶ 1:23:44So, was that question to me? Are you are you aware that there are pork producers who are benefiting from the market created by Proposition 12?
▶ 1:23:53There are um there are definitely um producers that are raising Prop 12 uh compliant pork. Yes.
▶ 1:24:03Okay. Uh and so uh Congressman McGovern is introducing letters from a hundred uh hundreds of these farmers that you it would be helpful if you get to know them because they they may be your members. I think he's already spoken to that. Uh so uh why is um NPPC working against these
▶ 1:24:28Thank you for for is this question for me too as well?
▶ 1:24:31Yes. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Um well the the challenge is is um we have a a state um that raises 0.1% of the of the pork in the US and so when they make a mandate it forces um essentially uh mandates to the rest of the country that there has to be conversions to this mandate and so I think
▶ 1:25:01uh MPPC's position and is the concern that it's forcing other uh states to be able to uh meet the demand of one state that uh of another state and I think that's the crux of of the concern here ma'am. Thank
▶ 1:25:18So so let me ask you does NPP NPC receive any government pork commodity check off funds to your knowledge?
▶ 1:25:27Yes. Yes. So NPC is is a voluntary check off organization. What what percentage of of your funds consists of commodity pork check off funds?
▶ 1:25:38Do you know the percentages?
▶ 1:25:39I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?
▶ 1:25:40What percentage what percentage of your budget consists of commodity pork check off funds?
▶ 1:25:48Well, our um I I couldn't I could not answer what the exact percentage is being used. Um, I mean, everything for us, uh, MPPPC is a public policy. Um,
▶ 1:26:00Okay. Well, you don't have a percentage that you know of. Okay. Well, let me let me move on. Uh, I I've heard from producers and companies both large and small that have that have invested in Proposition 12 complaint systems, not because they agree with or support Proposition 12, but because the law has passed was passed in 2018 and they had a business decision to make. They decided to invest in a in a compliance system to supply a large market.
▶ 1:26:28And some of those producers have invested tens of millions of dollars. They've faced nearly 5 years of uncertainty from the initial January 2022 implementation date. Uh and when the Supreme Court ruled in 2023, they hoped that this was finally a settled matter. Now, Congress is introducing even more uncertainty uncertainty. those producers who invested are the ones who will be hurt.
▶ 1:26:53Mi Miss Lashmitt, have you seen any data that um assesses the cost that these producers will incur uh to revert back to the traditional system?
▶ 1:27:03Uh no ma'am, I've not seen specific data on that. I certainly have heard producers discuss that that is a concern for them, but I don't have specific numbers on that.
▶ 1:27:10Okay. In your opinion, will the um eats act as written or any preeemption of Proposition 12 be subject to additional legal challenge and additional years of uncertainty for these producers who are simply trying to follow the law to have access to a market.
▶ 1:27:27I think it's safe to say if Congress acts in this space, it's very likely that it will be challenged in the
▶ 1:27:32Okay. Well, thank you very much and thank you all for your testimony and Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:27:39Yes, ma'am. Thank you. And I am spending for the record a letter from the Livestock Marketing Association where they offer uh support for section 1207. Without objection, Mr. Man, you're now recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here today. I appreciate the uh the chairman for having this hearing. I represent the Big First District of Kansas, 60 primarily rural counties in western and and central Kansas. Uh the Big First is one of the top swine producing districts in the country.
▶ 1:28:08um you know much smaller than than Iowa and other states but we generate more than $640 million dollars in sales uh rank fourth nationally. Um we have over a thousand farms raising hogs and pigs each year. Kansas farmers, ranchers, and egg producers have been burdened with additional costs to conform with not Kansas law or even federal law um where they have a seat at the table, but from a state that's 718 miles from my district's border, uh with the fraction of the production compared to what we produce in in Kansas.
▶ 1:28:39Uh fellow can President Dwight Eisenhower once said that farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from a cornfield. Uh, and that's exactly what's happened in California with Proposition 12. I look forward to hearing from you all on your perspectives on the issue and how it's affecting our a producers. Just a few questions. Um, maybe first for you, M. Mr.
▶ 1:29:01Hord, how does Prop 12 affect US pork producers ability to access export markets, particularly given that most foreign buyers expect a uniform national
▶ 1:29:15Thank you for that question. uh to my uh to my knowledge and uh I'm uh obviously a a pork farmer but to my knowledge I I don't know that the export out of the US um typically were trying to meet that California standard.
▶ 1:29:32Now the concern is uh for other foreign uh uh of our foreign trading partners um they're concerned about the fact that um they would have to comply to be able to sell pork or bring pork in um to uh California which uh does give some concerns with the USMCA as well as the WTO uh concerns. So that is a concern of
▶ 1:29:59In in your mind, do inconsistent state requirements like Prop 12 make it harder for us to compete globally?
▶ 1:30:08It does. Uh it it it does um make it a challenge. Uh the the the fact of the matter is though that mostly Prop 12 is is is being supplied from the US market. And so I I don't um immediately think it's a a global trade issue, although MPPPC supports uh global trade and is advocating on that on behalf of
▶ 1:30:33You know, thank you. Uh Miss Cook, do you find that there's any evidence of significant premiums at the store for Prop 12 compliant pork products such that they would outweigh the increase in production costs that you've seen per producer know? What does the market say as so far as the demand for products that are Prop 12 compliant, California or otherwise?
▶ 1:30:52Well, in California, it's it's the only option for covered products. So, they're paying a lot more than they were before Prop 12, and they're also paying more than other US consumers in other states for the same product. So, we've seen that in the data. Um, and in terms of I think you asked about the cost and and the producers, um, there is more than just even the farm level cost that goes into what the consumer has to pay. there's costs incurred at at every level of the supply chain. And so what we're seeing is much higher prices and with that consumers able to consume less
▶ 1:31:23Are are you seeing other states um provide a premium or or market um you know pork that is Prop 12 compliant or or what are other states doing um outside of California? Well, I think it's important to recognize that um there's a difference between demand from consumers for certain products that's communicated through market signals and a willingness to pay and then a voter approved measure that requires that pork be sold. So, we're seeing that in California.
▶ 1:31:49There are other markets for certain products that are, you know, occurring based on consumer demand, but not um in the same restrictive and requirement way that we see with Proposition 12. Great. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for being here. With that, I yield Chair now recognizes Mr. Costa because Miss Brown is allowing it.
▶ 1:32:12Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and M.
▶ 1:32:16That's what I was going to do.
▶ 1:32:17I got you.
▶ 1:32:20Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank Mr. Brown for the courtesy of allowing me to to go before her. Um, obviously this is a hearing that um impacts um California and I would hope to believe as a third generation farmer from California that this isn't a morning to simply beat up on California.
▶ 1:32:40Um and I with all due respect um am not um um feeling that uh the the panel that we have here as good as it is is balanced in terms of the different points of view that clearly are involved with a lot of other elements of agriculture and farmers that have adjusted and are taking advantage of the opportunities that Proposition 12 provides.
▶ 1:33:06Um the hearing today I think is um obviously focused on the grievances on on Prop 12. And let me be clear, I did not endorse Prop 12. It was a measure approved by the people of the state of California in 2018.
▶ 1:33:21it has created a niche marketplace for producers that but we also need to know that it wasn't fully implemented until July 1st 2023 because of the litigation that took place and in terms of the impacts on the market uh while some studies have been cited I don't think anyone stud cited the Oklahoma State University professor of economics who indicated from an economic analysis I review there is no indication that Prop 12 has contributed to elevated ated pork
▶ 1:33:52prices at the national level. I want to insert that for the record. Uh I think there are a lot of other elements that impact market prices and let's start with tariffs. Mexico is the top valuation uh destination for US pork. Uh last year 2.5 billion dollars. China is the US's largest market for pork variety meat by a value of 1.1 billion.
▶ 1:34:18Canada is the top market for US processed pork and the fourth largest market for US pork markets at $852 million. Um and and of course so what are we doing with Canada and Mexico? We're in a trade war. We're in a trade war.
▶ 1:34:37when in fact in 19 in in 2020, President Trump uh after the conclusion of the US Mexico trade agreement, I think I remember him saying the best and most beautiful greatest trade agreement ever known to mankind. Um now we are in a trade war with our two biggest trading partners, Mexico and Canada, which accounts for about 40% of our trade, a lot of agricultural trade back and forth. It makes no sense to me.
▶ 1:35:06And by the way, that provision of USMCA uh had a good provision in it. It asked every 5 years for a review period. Guess what? We're in that five-year period for the review period. Why not take advantage of the best, greatest trade agreement ever known to mankind that was signed by President Trump in 2020. This is a lot about political rhetoric. And I think this trade war goes to the heart of impacting American farmers.
▶ 1:35:32I'm a third generation farmer and I can tell you in California uh we're most fearful about the impacts of our markets that we've established. 44% of our agriculture in California is exported. It's exported. And when we went through this scenario and Trump won, we lost market share that we still have not gained back.
▶ 1:35:55So the reality is is we are facing losing markets largely due to uncertainty and inconsistency of this administration's inability to negotiate trade deals. 90 days 90 countries may be here may be there I don't know but certainly the uncertainty and the confusion in the market space continues to lead to the questionability of the United States as a trading partner and that impacts American farmers.
▶ 1:36:24It impacts California farmers. That's a fact. So, a simple economic lesson. Less food being produced, less food being exported, more tariffs equals higher food costs. That's the bottom line. And tariffs are a tax on American consumers, American producers, American agricultural producers, and that relates to higher food costs.
▶ 1:36:48So I would rem I'd be remiss if I did not indicate that when we talk about Prop 12, we talk about the other initiative, high path aven flu was largely responsible for the increase in the cost of of egg production and that gets overlooked.
▶ 1:37:08I mean the impact of high pathia we've do depopulated 170 million uh layers 30 million uh this year and in California 17 million. So I yield back the balance by time but I think that we're missing the point here.
▶ 1:37:26Gentleman yields back. Now I recognize the chairman ameritus of the house agriculture committee Mr. Lucas from
▶ 1:37:33That's politer than saying fossil. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that. Uh, Mr. Skyderman, your testimony touches on how Prop 12 could lead to the consolidation of family farms and small businesses. In your opinion, what will it mean for consumers across the US if we begin to lose small and medium-sized producers?
▶ 1:37:53I think, Congressman, thank you for the question. And and um, as we've studied the market worldwide, we've seen um, for example, Europe has put in restrictions similar to what we see in California. and we've seen their production decline to the point where they've lost export markets. And so um it seems to me to be fairly certain statement to say that our production will decline um as we lose small and medium-sized farmers um making the product less available.
▶ 1:38:19We've talked at length here about the increase in the cost of the product at the store. Um I feel like we're um with the uncertainty that we're looking at it, we're kind of at a little bit of a tipping point was are we going to continue to have quality affordable protein or are we going to go the other way?
▶ 1:38:36Miss Roka, what will it mean for your member companies if we see a reduction in small and midsize producers? So you're next in the chain as we go towards the consumer.
▶ 1:38:47Yes, thank you so much. Um again, it's I believe it's we'll see a decrease in in choice. um you know ultimately for us it's about prices and so um that is you know where we keep you know looking at um prices so um yet another regulation put upon restaurants is also something that you know obviously concerns us Mr.
▶ 1:39:12Horde I want to talk a little bit about administrative burden in my home district in G Oklahoma we have a seaborg plant and they process around 22,000 pigs a day. Under Prop 12, what additional steps will the plant have to take to ensure certain pigs are processed and products are labeled Prop 12 compliant?
▶ 1:39:35This is where the road meets the rubber.
▶ 1:39:38I uh thank you for the question. Uh I as being a producer, I I know intimately what happens uh uh at the producer side. Um I can speculate a little bit on what happens in the processing side but we
▶ 1:39:55we have to u segregate uh the product um and or the the pigs that have to be segregated and then we have to schedule the loads accordingly and then they usually sequence those uh from my knowledge um they come into the plant are segregated at the plant before they go to the harvest.
▶ 1:40:15uh and then as they go through that process, then they're segregated all the way into the freezer and then have to be segregated um as they're as those different products are shipped to California. So, yeah, there there's uh there's an immense amount of coordination and and cost as as you track all those things through. Uh does that answer your question?
▶ 1:40:38Absolutely does. And also from the perspective livestock's different than many other industries in that you have a live animal and from birth to processing there are timelines and feed programs and processing you can't start and stop the factory you can't start and stop the chain flow correct from the farm to the
▶ 1:40:57That's correct.
▶ 1:40:58Absolutely. Miss Cook and I know uh Austin Scott touched on this. Your testimony highlights this, but can you briefly detail the variable cost over time that contribute to higher overall cost? And do we have an estimate of how much this is costing consumers? Now,
▶ 1:41:17thank you for the question. When it comes to variable cost, there's a few things to consider. One, if you have fewer pigs in a barn, you're probably paying more to heat that barn. So utilities also the skilled management and labor that's required to work under a prop 12 system and other things like feed efficiencies and veterinary care are also really important costs that could increase under Prop 12. So studies show that could increase that total cost category up to 15%. And that is certainly reflected in the cost producers need to make that work and then passed on to the consumer as well.
▶ 1:41:47So potentially cause chaos in the supply
▶ 1:41:51exactly. Mr. Chairman, I can't think of an issue more important than to consumers all over the country and maybe the world for that matter than this issue. And I yield back.
▶ 1:42:01Gentlemen yields back. Now recognize gentle lady from the Buckeye State, uh, Congresswoman Brown for, uh, five
▶ 1:42:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Craig. Uh, I I want to start by putting today's hearing in context. The Supreme Court has ruled on this issue. This is settled law. The court was clear. States have rights to establish standards for goods sold within their borders. Proposition 12 wasn't a federal mandate. It was a ballot initiative passed by dem passed democratically and overwhelmingly by California voters. And other states have follows too.
▶ 1:42:39States across the country have either already passed or have introduced popular and often bipartisan measures that reflect local consumer values on animal welfare, food food safety, and consumer This committee often hears concerns, particularly from my friends on the other side of the aisle, about federal overreach and one-sizefits-all policies that don't work for farmers and businesses on the ground.
▶ 1:43:06Yet here we are doing the opposite, discussing ways to override democratically enacted regulations at the federal level. The reality is that major food and agricultural companies across the country have already moved to comply with Prop 12. They have made investments, integrated new standards into their supply chain, and adapted to a changing market. That tells us that these benchmarks are both possible and marketable.
▶ 1:43:34What farmers need right now is certainty, not uncertainty from members of Congress reopening what's already been decided. Mr. Kushman, American Farm Bureau represents millions of farms of all shapes and sizes across the country. In your testimony, you mentioned several concerns about farmers transitioning to comply with Prop 10 12 standards.
▶ 1:43:55However, I'm wondering if you can also speak to some of the challenges farmers who have already transitioned to Prop 12 compliant infrastructure may face if Congress were to overturn the law. What kind of economic impact could those farmers have?
▶ 1:44:10Thank you so much for the thoughtful question. Um, if if Prop 12 was overturned, it would not impact those farmers ability to continue their operations in the way that they see fit. They can continue serving the markets that have a a demand or request for Prop 12 compliant meat. uh what it would do is prohibit uh states from continuing to enact these kinds of patchwork of uh ratcheting up their requirements.
▶ 1:44:32So it would in that way protect those farmers that have made those investments from a from another state changing and and having a 25 square foot per rule or a 30 square foot per cell rule.
▶ 1:44:44Thank you. And Miss Lashman, your testimony also mentions the investment that many farmers have made to be in compliance with be early compliance with Prop 12. Do you have anything to add about what that impact may be on those
▶ 1:45:00Yeah, I I well I would agree with Mr. Kushman that there none of the bills we've seen would require those farmers to convert back to the systems that they were under pre-prop 12. That may overlook the cost that they've already spent in making those uh changes in the first place, right? So, they have already made those changes. They've got those sunk costs. And I think that that's a point that they frequently raise both in lawsuits uh and otherwise when they're looking at those costs, but they've already spent them. So, even if there's no requirement that they go back in law, they will have to analyze whether that's something that they want to do and more costs they'd want to
▶ 1:45:29Thank you. And your testimony also notes that the Supreme Court upheld the California law in a complex but ultimately affirming decision. In your view as a legal scholar, what are the implications of Congress intervening to undo a law that has been both democratically enacted by voters and upheld by the highest court in the land? Is there any sort of precedent in recent history for this type of congressional
▶ 1:45:55That's something I might have to get back with you with with some supplemental testimony for the record.
▶ 1:45:59Okay. Thank you. Um to all of our witness, I appreciate you being here today and sharing what you're hearing from producers and stakeholders on the ground when it comes to Proposition 12. Your insights are valuable to this committee. And with that said, I want to be clear. Proposition 12 has been settled by the voters of California and by the US Supreme Court. Meanwhile, this committee has pressing unresolved issues before us.
▶ 1:46:26That includes the current administration's action to freeze congressionally appropriated funds, USDA abruptly terminating grant programs, and dismissing career public servants without cause. I look forward to addressing those pressing issues in this committee as well. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:46:44Ja yields back. Now, please recognize the gentleman from Iowa, Mr. Fina, for five minutes. Thank you uh Chairman Thompson and Ranking Member Craig for holding this critical hearing. It's this is a very very important hearing. So I represent the largest hog producing district in the nation.
▶ 1:47:04I represent the largest hog producing state in the nation and I also represent the largest county in the nation that produces hogs and that's over 1 million hogs that we have in my individual county. And I'm so proud to have Matt Skyman here from our county uh that knows. All right, we live it. We breathe it. We see it every day. We understand Prop 12. All right. And I want to dig into this a little bit so everybody can just sort of understand what's happening here.
▶ 1:47:35All right. First of all, I've got a bunch of letters here from the farms I visited in my district firsthand to talk about this egregious mandate and and I want to bring these stories to light. So chairman, if I may ask for unanimous consent for these farmers concerned to be submitted to the
▶ 1:47:50Without objection.
▶ 1:47:51Thank you. Mr. Skyderman, let's talk about what Prop 12 is all about. It's really about the health of the animal, right? That's how it all started. All right, it's very simple. All right, that we want to protect the animal health. So when I visited family uh farms in my district, they noted that the system has caused increased stress, injury for the animal mortality while limiting individualized animal care, right?
▶ 1:48:20And yet Prop 12 is supposed to make sure that doesn't happen. Can you explain what's happening? Why do hogs why do they have stress and injuries from Prop 12? I think the part of the part of the root of the problem is just simply the fact that uh you have an initiative that was crafted by people who have not lived the industry, who have not been around the animals. And and you know, those of us who've been around it for generations can tell you, well, this animal is going to do this, and if you give this animal this space, she's going to do this,
▶ 1:48:50And that's really that that institutional knowledge. What Prop 12 does is it takes away our ability to act on what we know for the best interest of the animal. And maybe it's been settled in other places, but that has not been settled in Iowa. And we would prefer to have the freedom to manage our animals the best way we can see fit for the best possible outcome.
▶ 1:49:12That's right. Thanks for your ex expertise on this. You live it and breathe it every single day. And think about this. So, I just talked about Iowa being the largest uh uh state in the nation for producing hogs. California, on the other hand, makes up less than onetenth of 1% of pork production. Onetenth of 1%. And yet, they're creating the law. And we make 40% 40% of the hogs come out of Iowa.
▶ 1:49:40And yet, we are bound by a c a state that is onetenth of 1% of the hogs. How egregious is that? How clueless is that when they don't have a have a an idea of what these animals are going through and when you create larger pins, they destroy each other. That's what hogs do. This is just stupid. So, let me go on a little further. So, when we have to do Prop 12, all right, what are the ramifications?
▶ 1:50:10Does it cost you more money when if you have to go down to Prop 12? All right. We sort of went through this already, but it's going to cost you how much more uh per animal. Do you know
▶ 1:50:19we've talked about the 35 to 4500 range per cell or more?
▶ 1:50:22Yep. 35 to 3500, right? The 45 cost. So, think about that. All right. So, now it's going to cost the producer that much more. And then it it it's noted here that in California prices have increased 20 to 40% on average. All right. So prices have increased, the cost for for the farmer has increased, and the animal is far worse off by Prop What are we doing? What are we doing?
▶ 1:50:53This all happens because California has a liberal progressive agenda that has no idea what farming is all about. Let's be clear. Prop 12 is a direct threat to our viability of family farms, the health and welfare of animals, and the affordability of pork production in America. I stand with my Iowa hog farmers, and I urge this committee to act. Food security is national security, and Prop 12 is putting both at risk. And I yield back.
▶ 1:51:20Gentlemen yields back. Now, we please recognize the gentleman from Illinois, uh, Mr. Sorenson for 5 minutes.
▶ 1:51:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our ranking member, uh, Craig. Um, across Illinois, county fair seasons in full swing. Uh, igniting a proud tradition. Uh, shout out to Stevenson County Fair and Mlan County Fair going on right now. Um, but this isn't just one week out of the year. Uh, it's not just funnel cakes, corn dogs, and Tilta Worlds.
▶ 1:51:50Farm kids from all over my district from Freeport and Kiwani, Monmouth and Canton have been getting up for weeks and months and years before dawn um raising prepping their animals in order to show off their skills. It's a great tradition where we can bring families from our big cities to our fairgrounds to understand and appreciate the grit, the pride, the importance of agriculture and animal husbandry.
▶ 1:52:22In our part of the world, FFA and 4 organizations, parents and grandparents have passed down essential values of animal stewardship to young farmers, rooting them in responsibility and compassion and in hard work. Their experience reflects a broader truth. Animal stewardship is not a partisan It is a core tradition of American agriculture and it is something that we're all so proud of.
▶ 1:52:52From small family farms to large commercial operations, producers understand that the health and the welfare of their animals are directly tied to the longevity of their business and the confidence of the The hands-on experience gained in daily care, nutrition, health management reflects the very values that underline innovative agricultural standards.
▶ 1:53:16You know, I live just two miles from the bridge that goes from Illinois into Mr. Fenrist state of Iowa. Now, no offense to anyone else, Illinois and Iowa, we produce the best pork in the world. Sorry. But when I'm at Fairway or Jewel or Hi- Ve, no shopper I talk to bulks at the idea of making sure that we have minimum space and welfare requirements for livestock that becomes the protein on their dinner tables. Why?
▶ 1:53:46Because they already assume it's the case. On the farm and in this committee, we have many different perspectives on what is best. But what's clear is that many of the practices that Prop 12 promotes, like quality care and daily health checks and ethical housing, have already been implemented by a significant number of producers. And I would challenge people to rectify with that fact that it's exactly what we teach our kids early on on the farm.
▶ 1:54:16Though Prop 12 is a voluntary approach, the measure reflects the enduring values of stewardship that the FFA and that 4 have upheld for generations. And I challenge my colleagues on this committee. It shouldn't be different from one political party to the other. Shouldn't policy mirror what's working in practice, not just in theory. Miss Lashman, um, thank you for explaining in your testimony the different sides of the issue.
▶ 1:54:41Are you familiar with any existing or proposed state laws or ballot initiatives that mirror Prop 12's standards or that would implement a standard that is vastly different than Prop 12?
▶ 1:54:50Yes, sir. Thank you for your question. Uh, so certainly there's a very similar law of Proposition 12 in Massachusetts, which is question three.
▶ 1:54:58It applies to all three of the same species as Prop 12. There are also a number of states, six of them in fact, have similar laws like Prop 12 for egg production that impose the requirements not only on the producers in the state but also on eggs that are going to be sold within the state. So those are the similar laws. I'm not familiar with states that have enacted standards that are vastly different than Proposition 12 at this point.
▶ 1:55:18The 10th Amendment to the Constitution doesn't specifically say that the federal government can do anything it wants, but that states and the people come first. In your opinion, do you do you believe preempting Prop 12 could violate the 10th Amendment? I think that there's always a really delicate balance whenever Congress acts under the commerce clause and it affects states and so I think that there Congress will have to be careful to find a balance between the 10th amendment and the commerce clause.
▶ 1:55:40Thank you. Uh as we continue to debate the merits, the consequences of Prop 12, it's critical that our discussions be grounded in facts and not politics. I wasn't elected to Congress because I was a slick talker. I earned the trust of the people by collecting data, by deciphering science, and explaining the results. So, parsing out all of the noise, we can see that this law was written as a return to the long-standing practices that define true animal husbandry. But intentions aren't all we have here.
▶ 1:56:10The issue is the broader regional implications for producers, supply chains, consumer prices, interstate commerce, and that's what's still an issue for me. And this isn't checkers, it's playing chess. We must make sure that what we do in this committee strengthens the farmer and strengthens producers. Unwanted consolidation that benefits China or Brazil does a disservice to our farmers and the neighbors and small hometowns that I'm fighting to protect back home. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:56:39Gentleman yields back. Now, uh, keeping with that Illinois theme, I recognize the gentle lady from Illinois, uh, Congresswoman Miller for five minutes.
▶ 1:56:49Thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you to our panel for being here today to examine the very far-reaching implications of Proposition 12. Illinois is one of the top pork producing states in the country, and I've heard directly from our producers and organizations like the Illinois Pork Producers Association and the Illinois Farm Bureau about how Proposition 12 places a strain on family farms. The reality is simple.
▶ 1:57:17Proposition 12 imposes costly mandates on farmers in states like mine who have no say in California's policymaking. Producers in Illinois are telling me this will force many farmers out of the market altogether driving further consolidation and vertical integration in an already concentrated industry.
▶ 1:57:40And I think it's interesting that the my friend from across the aisle acted like he understands animal husbandry, which I guarantee you he does not. But he did acknowledge that um producers want their animals to be healthy and live long because it affects their profits.
▶ 1:58:02So let them make the best choices for their production instead of having politicians that have no clue about agriculture or animal husbandry promoting these ridiculous policies. Smaller operations simply cannot absorb the financial burden of facility overhauls or navigate a patchwork of inconsistent state laws. That's what we're going to end up with. This is just the beginning.
▶ 1:58:30This not only threatens the viability of independent family farms but increases the cost for consumers. Ultimately that is what will happen. And I suppose the plan is once we run American medium and small producers out of business we'll import more pork from other countries that we have no idea what how they're actually raising their animals. So Mr.
▶ 1:58:54Skymen, can you please speak to how Proposition 12 will accelerate consolidation in the pork industry and what it means for independent family farms?
▶ 1:59:04Well, I think um part partly to answer that, I refer back to Miss I think Roa, her testimony, two quotes that I wrote down is that uh Proposition 12 is a death sentence to small business and overregulation takes food off the plate. Um, clearly if we're going to lose our small and medium-sized producers, uh, we're going to lose product to the market. Um, how it's going to support consolidation, one way would be through the cost of, um, through the cost of construction.
▶ 1:59:34Um, Mr. Horde referred to larger operations being able to segment maybe a portion of their production for a prop 12 type market and and do something else with the other ones. Well, smaller producers, as as he said, don't have that opportunity. And so, um, it's a similar process to what, uh, to what we went through on our farm. I noted in my testimony that we pharoted until 2018.
▶ 1:59:58One of the factors at that time was with the passing of Prop 12, what does the future look like and what are we going to have to spend on our facilities to be able to meet that future? And because of the uncertainty, we chose to back away a little bit, at least from that segment of our operation.
▶ 2:00:13Well, I'm sorry to hear that, Mr. Kushman. Now that Prop 12 has been upheld and without a fix from Congress, do you see this setting a precedent for other states to pass similar extra territorial regulations?
▶ 2:00:27Yes, thank you so much for the question and that is a large concern of ours. Uh the 2022 egg census showed that we'd lost 170 150,000 farms over 5 years. That's 77 farms a day. Uh laws like Prop 12 make it uh very difficult for small and medium-sized farmers to exist. and uh without a fix from Congress, there'll be nothing uh for farmers to do from another state and ratchet up their requirements to make it 25 square feet or 30 square feet. Also, Mr.
▶ 2:00:54Kushman, your testimony today has shown us exactly why Congress needs to provide a fix for Proposition 12. What risk does this uh pose for national agriculture markets and interstate I think this this would help ensure interstate commerce uh continues to be viable throughout the country.
▶ 2:01:14Uh the Supreme Court decision from Gorsuch was clear that Congress is the appropriate body right now to act on this in order to ensure those interstate markets continue to flourish uh not be bulcanized by state intervention uh into production laws of other states. It would be necessary for Congress to act.
▶ 2:01:30I am just curious when we import pork do we are we imposing the same kind of standards on them? Uh yes. So um these these standards for Prop 12 will apply to Canadian and Mexican pork. Uh the Canadian government has expressed concern with this. Uh in fact they they've raised concerns that with uh the US MCA um it's frustrates federal trade policy.
▶ 2:01:53The US MCA adopts part of the WTO requirements and under that Canada has suggested that this uh restricts trade more than necessary and lacks scientific support as required by the USMCA. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 2:02:09Gentlemen, lady yields back. Now praise, please recognize uh the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Figures, for five minutes.
▶ 2:02:19Thank you, Chairman Thompson and Rank Member Craig. Uh and thank you to all of you guys uh being here and um bearing through uh sitting through a congressional hearing, which I know is not at the top of your wish list in your career. Uh but it's a worthy issue. Um, look, I um, you know, I'm of look, for this to have started in California. I', I've heard a lot about it in Alabama. Uh, I'm from the southern, uh, part of the state, Mobile up to Montgomery and such.
▶ 2:02:48Um, Alabama has a lot of pork producers. Uh, and they are too concerned about the implications of of Prop 12 and their ability uh, to be able to participate in the industry. Um, but I've also heard on the other side of this, and this is this is truly one of those issues that, you know, I came to Congress. I don't come from a uh a exclusive background. My father owned a small cattle ranch uh for a little while when I was a child, but um this is one where we had to dig in and learn about and they're still digging in and learning about and so I appreciate having this hearing uh to inform uh members of Congress.
▶ 2:03:18I will also note that um our colleagues on the other side have left, but you would have seen this gentleman over my right shoulder jump across the deis if he had heard them say that they have the best pork um in America. um my colleague Mr. Davis from North Carolina. Um but um and actually let me back up before I go any further.
▶ 2:03:38I have an intern that's in her last week with us uh Chalia Latson uh who was here with us who has helped us not only prepare for this um but uh has been a great attribute to our office throughout um throughout her tenure with us. So thank you uh Julia and we wish you the best in your return to Spellelman College. Um but getting back uh to task here um this is a tough issue.
▶ 2:03:58Uh this is one where the Supreme Court has spoken uh in favor uh of one of the core principles that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle stand for in a flagship case of states rights. Um but this is that you know this is this is where state state rights one state's rights um run up against uh the rights of companies that you know reside and and operate in other states uh runs up against their ability uh to make a living.
▶ 2:04:25And you know in Alabama like many other districts in my district pork production plays a vital role in the economy. So we understand that in the state of Alabama was actually part uh they filed uh they joined part of the uh the legal efforts and arguments before the Supreme Court. But it's a it's an industry. It generates over $150 million in the state of Alabama and many jobs. Um and I recognize that consumers um you know consumers have a right and you know in any state to want higher standards for how their food is uh produced. Uh food quality does matter.
▶ 2:04:54animal welfare matters. Um, and there's value in continuing to improve standards uh for both. But this presents the tough question of is this the right way uh to do it? Is it informed? Does it make sense? Uh we know agriculture is not a one-sizefits-all. Uh what's feasible in one part of the country may not be workable in another uh part of the country. Different landscapes, climates, production systems, economies.
▶ 2:05:16Um that's why we have to be extremely cautious about imposing blanket standards or standards that um that have the effect of being a blanket standard even when passed in one specific state. Um some decisions should be left to the states uh who know their own agricultural realities uh best. Um but on the flip side of that coin is some decisions in one state are are having drastic impacts um on others.
▶ 2:05:40Um, but as we continue these discussions, uh, we have to prioritize the producers who are caught in the middle of of what is essentially a a political game. Um, and it it's a game that is impacting real lives, real businesses, real people every single day. Um, and these are complex issues and they deserve thoughtful discussion, not just in courtrooms. Uh, we we know what the Supreme Court has said.
▶ 2:06:02Um, but the Supreme Court has a a way of sort of winking its eye when it says, "Hey, we know what we said, but we know what needs to be done or what can be done uh to provide the the relief that is sought." And so, with that, look, I will uh ask a couple of questions here, but we'll probably follow up with some more off the record stuff. And so, who is um we can go down the line, but I know some producers are now actively considering not selling into California. Is that a viable strategy at all? um you guys' understanding of the industry.
▶ 2:06:34So um let me repeat the question. So what you're saying is is it a viable that some producers don't sell into
▶ 2:06:42Yeah. Okay.
▶ 2:06:43Could pork producers legitimately um make a you know you know make a living um exing out California?
▶ 2:06:52Yeah. So um so each one of us as as individual pork producers have the opportunity to make make an individual decision whether we would uh supply prop uh prop 12 compliant pork. Uh the the challenge is is with California only producing 0.1% of the nation's pork and having 13% of the pork uh consumed in the US.
▶ 2:07:16it would be really detrimental to us um as pork producers to not and the rest of the pork chain to not supply that. And so in in reality is it's forcing the rest of the industry to comply rest of the states to comply in order to raise that that product for
▶ 2:07:34So I I'll take that as a as a no. It's not a a a viable wise or sustainable decision uh for pork producers to make that decision. Uh my time's expired. I yield back. Thank you. Gentleman yields back. Now recognize the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Finstad, for five minutes.
▶ 2:07:50Uh, thank you, Chairman Thompson. Uh, thank you for holding this hearing today. And Mr. Chairman, I I really just want to thank you for your ste uh steadfast leadership on this issue. You have been a a true champion and really appreciate working with you on this. Uh, I represent a very strong, powerhouse egg district in southern Minnesota. Most of my counties have more pigs than people.
▶ 2:08:12and the uh great hog farmers of southern Minnesota are the salt of the folks that have given so much to our communities, to our uh schools, to our towns, to our you name it, they are just a a critical part of what makes southern Minnesota so great. And so it's an honor to represent all of them. Uh and I've had a lot of conversations with them over the last few years.
▶ 2:08:35and uh they have been very crystal clear, loud and clear that Congress must fix the Prop 12 piece. Uh and so uh with with that message, I've heard loud and clear from them. They've also been uh telling me that they're very frustrated with the lies and the myths that are around this whole Prop 12 piece. So on the record, let's let's just go through some questions here.
▶ 2:08:58And uh but I I will just say this that you know Prop 12 mandate it it's based on political science uh and it's been pointed out many times you know Prop 12 was was dreamt up by a bunch of folks that have never stepped foot in a hog barn. They don't understand what a gestation pen looks like. They don't understand the life of a hog farmer in this country. But yet they have dictated the terms on which uh we all live our life and and how we lose money in this proposition.
▶ 2:09:30And so you know I know the swine industry you didn't stumble upon uh the way we take care of our hogs. This has been years and millions of dollars of investments,
▶ 2:09:40blood, sweat, and tears to your farms, gen multi-generational farms that you have learned through your grandparents and through your parents and you're teaching your kids and your grandkids on how to always evolve and better take care of those animals. And so I a couple just we're going to do yes or no questions if that's okay. Mr. uh Horde and Mr. Skyidman, do you care about the health and well-being of your pigs?
▶ 2:10:08All right. Do you consult with veterinarians to ensure that your pigs are well cared for?
▶ 2:10:15Do you ensure daily that your pigs receive adequate nutrition and medications when in time for need?
▶ 2:10:23Is your success as a farmer directly tied to the health and well-being of your pigs?
▶ 2:10:30All right. So, thank you. I you know, again, I knew how you would answer it. I trust you. I trust my neighbors in southern Minnesota and uh the production decisions that are being made uh have have been years in the making. You all are more efficient now than you've ever been. You are more health consscious of your pigs than you've ever been. You didn't stumble upon these practices. So, we've heard today Prop 12 and uh similar politically motivated mandates pose serious threats to consolidation within the pork industry.
▶ 2:10:59This is what I've heard loud and clear from my farmers in southern Minnesota. Uh, as was referenced a little bit earlier, uh, I think the number was $3,400 a pig. How how many pigs right now uh does does a farmer have to farm uh raise uh to even break even with that proposition? I mean, there is an amount that would be not cost uh wise to even go down this route.
▶ 2:11:24And and if you're faced with that consolidation will be the logical conclusion. So, I guess it's not even a question. I mean, that is that is a statement of fact. I've heard it over and over again from my farmers that there is a price point that that just pretty much ends that multi-generational farm opportunities. So, uh, Mr. Cook, uh, if we don't stop this patchwork, do you believe pork industry will consolidate further?
▶ 2:11:51Or sorry, Miss Cook, I'm sorry.
▶ 2:11:56All right. So, uh, I've, uh, read a few press reports about this hearing. I was disappointed because some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle said that, well, we're in listenonly mode. Goodness gracious, we better be in action mode. We better be in action mode. And I am very proud of my colleagues on this side of the aisle and the action that we've taken over the last few years to move Prop 12 into the bipartisan farm bill that we got through the committee last Congress.
▶ 2:12:24I'm looking forward to uh with the with the chairman's leadership to doing it again. Uh my farmer friends would say uh listenon only mode on this issue is pretty much telling you that you're all hat and no cattle. And I think we have a few folks on this committee and in Congress right now that are all hat and no cattle. And it's time for us to move on this to create some certainty for the industry to allow you all to do what you've done best. Allow you to pass that farm on to the next generation. So Mr.
▶ 2:12:53Chairman, with that I yield back.
▶ 2:12:55I thank the gentleman before I introduce our next uh member to speak. I ask unanimous consent to uh enter into the record um speaking of how states feel about this uh submitting the for the record letters from governors from across the country led by Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds uh where they express opposition to Proposition 12 and ask Congress to act.
▶ 2:13:20uh as well as uh submitting um for the record a letter from 16 state attorney generals led by Iowa Attorney General Brena Bird where they express opposition to Proposition 12 and ask Congress to act uh without objections. Those will be entered into the record. Now, please introduce the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Don Davis, for five minutes.
▶ 2:13:42Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and to the ranking member. Mr. Chair, I need to start with a point of order today. If I'm not mistaken, I heard earlier that Illinois somewhere claimed to be the the best pork of the world. That's impossible. Mr. Figures knows that is correct. And he's he knew I was coming. Um and uh Mr. Chair, we need to strike that from the record because we know that North Carolina has the best barbecue, the pork of all.
▶ 2:14:12Well, if the gentle if the gentleman will yield, um I'm not quite sure about striking from the record, but I'm more than more than happy to host a a bacon off
▶ 2:14:23and uh and the myself and the ranking member will be the judges, and you two bring it on. Bring the bacon.
▶ 2:14:32Well, thank you so much, Mr. Chair and Madame Ranking member. I do want for the record to enter into the record that Kinston, North Carolina, located in eastern North Carolina, is the Guinnessburg book a world record holder for selling the most pool barbecue sandwiches um in an 8hour window. And we broke the record after five hours without objection.
▶ 2:14:56I'm very concerned when I think about why in the world are we here on this topic today? I'm very concerned when one state would take an action that would disrupt commerce in another state. California's law requires significant investment for pork producers across the country, whether they sell into the market or not.
▶ 2:15:21Many of you may not know, but North Carolina has longstanding regulations the expansion of S barns and the building of new barns. Prop 12 and measures like it uniquely burden producers in eastern North Carolina. Let's be clear, North Carolina's first congressional district. And to be on the record, I have more than 1.3 million hogs and pigs in my district. Way more than people.
▶ 2:15:51And we need a fix. A fix. That's the bottom line. People back home trying to figure out what in the world, what do we come up here and do? They need a fix. We need a long-term solution that does not disadvantage eastern North Carolina producers or others and potentially put some out of I work with anyone, to be clear, anyone on this committee to come up with that fix and a workable solution.
▶ 2:16:20But for us to not address this, I believe would be a fatal mistake. fatal mistake for our pork producers and my constituents. I have a question, Miss Cook. Given the regulations on building and expanding s barns in North what unique challenges does that present to producers in eastern North Carolina?
▶ 2:16:46Will North Carolina producers be disadvantaged in complying with Prop 12 or a further patchwork compared to other Thank you for the question. And in the event that we see more states adopt these measures or we're facing a patchwork and North Carolina producers need to incur those costs to comply due to the restrictions that you described, they may have fewer options than other producers in other states.
▶ 2:17:10The only option available to them may be to reduce their sourd that may not be workable for those operations. When I speak to producers back home, they fear have a fear of the future of their farms. I mean, there's so much going on right now in the agriculture community. A whole lot's going on.
▶ 2:17:35I think about cost, disasters we're experiencing in North Carolina, concerns I still hear with terror. So much that's out there. And all people want to do is go to work, make an honest day's living. And many of the people back home say to me, I just want to turn it over to the kid for a future generation. That's it. That's it. Mrs. Mcdow Lashmat and Mr. Hord, I'm going to go ahead and put you in.
▶ 2:18:05Can you share briefly your thoughts? What do you see in terms of in the next few um for producers if absolutely nothing
▶ 2:18:19If nothing happens and Congress doesn't act, I think the concern for producers is that there could be additional state laws that are passed. And I think it's one thing if there are state laws that mirror the California law. I think it could be another thing if we end up with a patchwork of laws where, as we've discussed, it makes it difficult for producers to be able to comply with multiple versions.
▶ 2:18:35Let me give Mr. heard in the last 10
▶ 2:18:39Yes, I agree. And uh the patchwork of states would be uh devastating to our our our pork industry. And uh I'd like to also like the record to show that I would like to be part of the taste pork tasting. So uh so thank you,
▶ 2:18:56Miss Mr. Chair. I claim the record and I yield back one time.
▶ 2:19:01The gentleman yields back and Mr. uh Hord's interest is so noted. Um now, please recognize the gentleman from Iowa, Mr. Nun, for five minutes.
▶ 2:19:13Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Don Davis, my fellow veteran here. And uh not only a veteran in the military, but a veteran pork producing state as well. And uh while I agree with you, Illinois and North Carolina produce some of the finest pork in the world, no one produces more pork than Iowa. So, we'll have you out to the Iowa State Fair, flip some pork chops, and chairman, ranking member, we'll have you both as judges in the case. I think Mr. Hord's going to join us in that great Iowa State Fair starts in two weeks, folks. The countdown has begun.
▶ 2:19:43With this, I also want to say thank you very much uh to Mr. Shman and Miss Cook. Uh Miss Cook is actually from the great state of Iowa. In fact, she's helped raise some of that great pork that has come up and her incredibly family, her mom and dad are here with her today, too. So, we're glad to have an Iowa gal here who not only is an accomplished economist, but she's actually seen firsthand how this operates. And that's one of the reasons we're all here today, right?
▶ 2:20:0749 states all want to be able to deliver their products, but for one state, which is telling all the rest of the union, they can't do it. We know this to be true. And this is bad policy out of California. It's not just bad policy. It's an insult to every hard-working farmer in this country who has been doing it right for generation. I know this much to be true.
▶ 2:20:33In Iowa, we raise 25 million hogs per year. I know in California, they consume 13% of all pork in this country. So, this is not a war against the people of California. This is a clarification of a bad policy that's been taken by a few politicians in Sacramento. Not only is Iowa the top n state producing pork, but right now our hard farmers are facing the toughest economy in decades.
▶ 2:21:02And the last thing they need is more red tape, not from Washington DC, but from the left coast 2,000 m away. These regulations aren't just affecting Iowa farmers either. Proposition 12 has had a tangible impact on consumers across the country. And I'll go back to California on this one. They've seen a price increase of more than 20% on most pork products with loins costing 41% more than ever before, which means they've got to come to the Iowa State Fair as well to be able to get bacon and pork chops actually at a liveable wage.
▶ 2:21:32The Supreme Court was very clear here. It's up to Congress to help define this space. We all agree interstate commerce is clear. No one state should hold the other 49 hostage. which is exactly why I teamed up with my very good friend Ashley Henson, a great representative from Iowa on Save Our Bacon Act.
▶ 2:21:52This is a effort to put the nonsense and federal government back into the driver's seat on interstate commerce and take away the nonsense that's been created by the few. Our bill makes it clear, if you don't grow it, you don't get to regulate it. So, Mr. Shikman, I'd like to talk with you a little bit here, particularly on the area of workforce safety.
▶ 2:22:15What is the most dangerous aspect of Proposition 12 for the producers or workers inside barns every day as a result of this nefarious proposition?
▶ 2:22:25I think if we lose the ability to uh to confine our females at key times, um that creates danger for the stockman potentially. Um, as I've talked about a few different times already today, we have developed our systems and housing systems with a three-prong approach in mind and safety of the stockman being one of those prawns and welfare of the animal, production of the animal.
▶ 2:22:49Um, so truly one of the dangerous things inside the barn, especially with the breeding herd, is if we don't have control over when and where we can uh confine our animals a little bit for our safety, for their safety, that adds risk. We just had uh Secretary Brooke Rollins come out to Iowa and she saw one of our hog farms here and we had five veterinarians on status uh who were there providing great care for the livestock. Nobody takes better livestock care than a farmer, particularly one who it's part of their breed uh and their heard.
▶ 2:23:19You know, when you look at this, is there a biocurity concern that comes up from states arbitrarily throwing mandates like this
▶ 2:23:26Yeah, the concern comes from uh the inspectors that are potentially brought in. Um, it takes roughly 3 days for disease, for pig disease to be free from the human body if you've interacted with it. It's not that it affects the human body, but the human body carries it. And so, if the inspection process doesn't honor that three-day separation, the potential for disease spread is is very
▶ 2:23:50Miss Cook, in the time that we have left, not only are you an accomplished economist, as we highlighted here, what does Proposition do 12 do to a family farm like yours? I think when we talk about the uncertainty that the potential of more measures or a conflicting patchwork creates, it really jeopardizes not just future investment decisions, but the ability to to pass those farms on for
▶ 2:24:10I would absolutely agree. Uh not let's not only save our bacon, let's save our family farms. And Mr. Chairman, we look forward to seeing you at the state fair for that pork competition. I yield my
▶ 2:24:19Uh gentleman yields back. Uh before I introduce our our next member, I want to ask unanimous consent to uh enter into the record um comments that Canada provided to the World Trade Organization Technical Barriers to Trade Committee that outlines their concerns with Proposition 12. Also submitting a letter from Canadian, United States, and Mexican government officials where they outline their concerns with Proposition 12 and question three.
▶ 2:24:50Without objection, those will be entered into the record. And now, pleased to uh recognize Mr. Mesmer from Indiana for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the witnesses for being here today. Uh it seems like some of my Democrat colleagues have picked this issue to finally care about states rights. Mr.
▶ 2:25:10Kushman, does section 1207 restrict any state from implementing their own standards of production or does it simply clarify that states can only uh implement production standards for livestock producers in their own
▶ 2:25:23Thank you for the question. Uh you're correct. It it only limits states to uh uh regulate products within their own states, production within their own states. Uh it does clarify though that states are not permitted to regulate production outside of their own state.
▶ 2:25:35Okay. Thank you. I want to call attention to a discrepancy I've seen in the committee room today. Yep.
▶ 2:25:41For the past couple months, myself and other Republicans on the committee have wrong wrongfully been accused of limiting food access for Americans in need. But some of those members who mo most adamantly support those false claims now support a regulation that has single-handedly increase pork prices in California by at least 20%. And is likely to increase prices nationally if left unchecked.
▶ 2:26:03Mr. Cook, your written testimony or Miss Cook, your written testim testimony identifies the consumer prices California residents have experienced as a result of Prop 12. In the absence of a fix, how will Prop 12 impact consumer prices and can we expect it will threaten access to affordable protein dense pork products nationwide?
▶ 2:26:24Thank you for the question. And a big reason why those prices are higher is because it's much more expensive to get that pork to consumers and to produce it. So in a situation where more states adopt these measures or a patchwork of regulations, more producers are required to undertake more costly production practices that could then result in in those much higher prices for not just California but any impacted market.
▶ 2:26:45Thank you. Uh former egg secretary Izzac said during a visit to to the hill last Congress, without congressional action on Prop 12, there will be chaos in the meat marketplace. Mr. Horde. In your written testimony, it identifies a threat of a patchwork of state regulations to the American marketplace. If any state can restrict the sale of products to wage ideological warfare, do you agree that this creates an environment of instability? Thank you for the question.
▶ 2:27:15Uh, Mr. Congressman, uh definitely is um one of my my personal biggest concerns of this is the the opportunity for other states to pass non-scientific uh laws that would impact or force me to continue to have to make changes to our facilities in order to produce pork. And so, uh yep, that's that's Thank you.
▶ 2:27:42Uh, if there was any evidence to the necessity of Prop 12, the marketplace nightmare would at least be for a worthy cause. But, Mr. Horde, you state that Prop 12 advances no public interest, not in animal safety, not human health, and certainly not onfarmm innovation. Mr. Horde, would you agree that Prop 12 is just another attack against production agriculture by interest groups that lack an understanding of the industry?
▶ 2:28:10Yes. the uh it it's it's definitely uh was crafted from a perspective uh that didn't have input from swine uh producers or for veterinarians and so therefore definitely was an unscientific uh mandate from another state.
▶ 2:28:29Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hord. And thank all the witnesses who have re reiterated the necessity of a congressional fix to Prop 12. I stand prepared to move forward with a solution that keeps our food affordable and your farmers profitable. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 2:28:43Gentleman yields back. It is with a deep apology I recognize the gentleman from California that I should have recognized last time, Mr. Carbajal for 5 minutes.
▶ 2:28:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, and thank you to all the witnesses that are here today. Look, a lot's been said about California Pork, but we all know it's the best in the whole country. All right. Uh, I know some of my colleagues uh feel otherwise, but we still make some pretty good park. Not as much, but we still do.
▶ 2:29:11Um, Professor Lashmmet, in your testimony, you noted that during the Supreme Court hearing on Prop 12, the state of California highlighted that some farmers had transitioned their operations to be Prop 12 compliant as proof that these adjustments can successfully be made.
▶ 2:29:30Uh given the court's decision to uphold Prop 12, what can Congress learn from those producers about how we can encourage stronger protection for animals while also making sure farmers and ranchers have the support they need to succeed?
▶ 2:29:46I think this is a great example of there being two voices, right, and folks on both sides of this issue. And I think that it would be useful for Congress to speak to producers who have made those compliance decisions uh to get their input on whether they were useful for the farm, whether they did help to increase what they believe as you animal husbandry standards on the farm or not. I think talking to those producers would be very useful.
▶ 2:30:05Thank you. Um, Professor Lashmmet, as noted earlier, the Supreme Court upheld California's Prop 12 authority to establish animal welfare standards for products sold in California, affirming states rights. From your professional perspective, how critical is it for states to maintain authority to enact such state right protections?
▶ 2:30:30I think certainly under the 10th amendment, any uh right not reserved to Congress is reserved to the states. And so animal welfare standards are certainly an example of a type of law that has historically been reserved to the states and they've made those types of laws. Now certainly we've got the balance there between the 10th amendment and the commerce clause power that Congress has and I think that's where it's going to be a complex decision for you all to make to find a balance between your wanting to act in interstate commerce and still preserving those states rights under the 10th
▶ 2:31:01Thank you. And finally, Professor Lash met, how can states continue to serve as leaders in addressing complex issues like animal welfare while respecting interstate commerce?
▶ 2:31:12Again, I think that's the balance between that 10th amendment and the commerce clause rights. And I think California uh, you know, enacted this law that imposes their standards within their own state. And certainly there have been a number of other states, I think 11, that have laws on the books, at least related to egg production, that do impose standards on producers within their own states. The distinction here is California's law also imposes those standards on any product sold within the state. Uh which is broader whether or not appropriate. I don't I'll leave that to you all, but certainly broader than actions other states have taken.
▶ 2:31:42Great. Thank you so much. Uh Mr. Chair, I yield back.
▶ 2:31:46I thank the gentleman. He yields back. Uh before I introduce our next member, I would just ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a um a letter from the American Association of Swine Veterinarians where they oppose Proposition 12 due to animal welfare concerns. Without objection, that will be entered into the record. Uh now, uh pleased to introduce the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Harris, for five minutes.
▶ 2:32:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And while I appreciate my colleague from California talking about the best pork coming from there, I do come from the eth district of North Carolina and we all know North Carolina has the best pork. Thank you all on the panel for sharing today your information and uh and your expertise. Let let me ask Miss Cook just one quick question.
▶ 2:32:33Looking through an economic lens, do you think that a large producers or small producers are more likely to be able to convert to Prop 12 Thank you for the question. We've talked a lot about the costs associated with complying with Prop 12 and measures like it. And for many reasons, larger producers are going to be the best position to undertake those costs. They can spread costs out over more units of production. They also have just certain efficiencies that come along with size.
▶ 2:33:00Great. Thank you, Mr. Kushman. As we all know, the work of farmers and ranchers is long and grueling, and they're constantly subjected to changing regulations, changing market prices, and weather events. Most producers have long enjoyed the freedom to raise their animals in whatever way is suitable for their individual farming needs. With Prop 12, as we've discussed today, that freedom has been taken away and similar state mandates seem to threaten it further. Mr.
▶ 2:33:26Kushman, how do you expect producers to navigate the patchwork of state laws that will ensue if a fix for Prop 12 is not provided? and and will legal advice be yet another thing that producers consider before making production decisions?
▶ 2:33:44Thank you for the excellent question. And to piggyback a little bit off of Miss Cook's response, the largest players, the ones most able to handle uh these kinds of requirements. Uh getting legal advice is something that a a much larger farm will be able to handle than a smaller medium-sized farm. With more of these regulations coming out, more conflicting potential regulations, uh that makes it much much harder for a smaller medium-sized farm to survive, uh and become compliant with one of these laws would require significant resources to do so.
▶ 2:34:12Okay. There there is a legislative solution to the problem that we've been discussing today. In fact, I heard it mentioned by uh my colleague, Mr. none a few moments ago. And I also am a proud co-sponsor of Representative Henson's Save Our Bacon Act, which says that a state can't impose a standard on the production of livestock outside their own borders. Um, Mr.
▶ 2:34:34Kushman, again, can you just state clearly for the record, does the Save the Bacon Act trample on states rights as some have claimed?
▶ 2:34:45It does not trample on states rights. They still maintain the right to uh regulate production within their state. That is something that states have traditionally done. All this does is prevent states from uh regulating outside of their own borders and uh putting inspectors onto Iowa farms or North Carolina farms.
▶ 2:35:01Well, I agree with you that the language here really does strike the right balance of giving states free reign to act within their own borders, but ensuring that they don't set mandates for the other 49. As a conservative, I'm typically partial to states rights arguments, but the Constitution is clear that there are several instances where the federal government must act.
▶ 2:35:24And in this situation, as we continue to hear uh just the damage and the uh dangers that come with uh Prop 12, this may very well be that time. So, thank you again panel all for being here to share. And uh Mr. Chairman, with that, I yield back. Gentleman yields back.
▶ 2:35:40Uh before I introduce our our next member for his fivem minute questioning, I I do seek unanimous consent to enter into the record um a letter um from the Food Equity Alliance uh where they oppose Proposition 12 due to consumer affordability issues. I'll just uh read the first sentence of that.
▶ 2:36:03Uh we, the Food Equity Alliance of California, feel a responsibility to reinforce to you that Proposition 12 is exacerbating food insecurity in California. So without objections, uh so-called letter such letter will be entered into into the record. Uh now recognize a gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Taylor, for five minutes. Thank you, Chairman, and uh thank you, Ranking Member Craig, for holding this hearing today.
▶ 2:36:30And thank you to all the witnesses for being here and for the sacrifices you made to spend some time with us today. One of the main reasons I ran for Congress is to bring economic e activity to Appalachia. Small towns are what make up southern Ohio, and these towns largely rely on our family farms. That's why Prop 12 is so devastating. It pushes small family farms out of business. The bigger operations can afford to comply with the ridiculous regulations while smaller farms are forced out of the market. And 96% of the farms in my district are family farms.
▶ 2:36:59I'm afraid that Prop 12 will only cause more consolidation in the industry. That means fewer of the next generation coming back to the farm. Mr. Skyderman, can you talk more about how California's Prop 12 and other similar state regulations will cause further consolidation in the A industry and what that would mean for our rural areas like mine that are already seeing continued loss of population?
▶ 2:37:20Yeah, we've touched on this uh before, but just to say again, the cost of uh of facilities, you know, we've talked about how these are generational family farms. And so the facilities they have, just like the knowledge has been built up over generations and so the cost of taking one facility and turning into something not really totally different, but still different is significant.
▶ 2:37:46And uh I've seen myself and I've seen other friends of mine who've just made the decision, you know what, with the uncertainty, we could build something that's going to end up being wrong if something else gets passed. And so we're just going to sit out for a while and see what happens.
▶ 2:38:01And that can lead to them getting out of the foreign business completely.
▶ 2:38:03Completely. Y
▶ 2:38:04Okay. Thank you. The 10th Amendment preserves a states rights to adopt their own ill-advised policies of many kinds, and California has certainly taken full advantage of that. But too often, as with Prop 12, California's bad policies seep out into other states to the detriment of the entire nation. When the Supreme Court issued its flawed decision in the Prop 12 case a few years ago, I think it was a clear sign that it'll be up to Congress to resolve this issue. Mr.
▶ 2:38:29Kushman, do you see a case sim similar to this coming to the Supreme Court in the future, or do you think it's solely on Congress to act?
▶ 2:38:36Thank you for the question. Um, the Supreme Court decision was very very difficult to understand and and parse through. Uh I mentioned earlier that uh legal scholars have called it a paradox. They've called it a mess to try to understand. Uh judges have disagreed on what it means. Um to reiterate, you need five at least five justices to win a case. Of the nine, six agreed with our legal theory. Five agreed we'd establish the legal theory, but didn't line up quite right.
▶ 2:39:02Um as to this issue on Prop 12, I do not see this uh proceeding in the courts anymore. Uh there is a a challenge to Massachusetts question three which is uh first circuit appellet court right now. Um but on this issue uh it seems fairly clear that it's up to Congress to act. Justice Gorsuch's opinion made that very clear that Congress does have this authority to preempt state laws that it finds are unwise under the commerce clause and so this would be up to Congress to fix right now.
▶ 2:39:28Okay. Thank you. Turning to my fellow Buckeye where we just kind of know we make the best pork. We don't have to talk about it all the time. Um, in your testimony, you you dove into the uh animal welfare side of Prop 12 discussion. And I'm sure one of the common responses we'll hear from certain groups is will be how important Prop 12 is because of the issue of animal welfare. But Mr. Horde, can you just dispel some of the myths surrounding the animal welfare welfare piece specifically?
▶ 2:39:55Uh, can you talk about how Prop 12 is actually worse for animal welfare in many cases?
▶ 2:40:02Yeah, thank you, Congressman. Uh we as farmers uh certainly um are concerned about animal animal welfare and it's uh it's the priority. Uh we if we do not take good care of our animals then that is a detriment to us and our livelihood. So housing uh a lot of times is not um determined by uh a determining factor of animal welfare.
▶ 2:40:30there's nutrition, there's animal husbandry, there's um different uh other systems that that happened. And so so we I can't definitively say that animal welfare um is um the impact of it is is uh is any different on our farm because we we care for our animals diligently.
▶ 2:40:56Thanks again to all of you for being here and chairman, I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Now recognize gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore, for five minutes.
▶ 2:41:04Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the witnesses being here today. Miss Roa, is that how you say your name, Miss
▶ 2:41:10Roachcha. Okay, that was Alabama version of Roachcha. Um, question. Um, you note that since Prop Prop 12 was fully implemented on January 1st of 2024, that retail pork prices in California have risen by an average of 20% with specific cuts. I think uh Portland's at 41%. How have these prices impacted the small family-owned and operated Latino businesses um that you represent?
▶ 2:41:36Thank you, Mr. Moore. Um well, 20% is a very high number and we have um we have already experienced um many many other challenges of regulation. So this is yet another um regulation on top of those that affects us. So, as you can imagine, um small businesses such as minority owned restaurants, we represent about 1,400 um members.
▶ 2:42:01Um it absolutely affects us negatively um by increasing prices and having to make um difficult choices of either um not offering pork, you know, because of the prices. It just all of what we do is, you know, all what I'm looking at, what I'm representing is the consumer um side of it with regard to the pricing. Yeah. And I mean with inflation, you just add another 20% in addition to that and that's not very beneficial. I I quoted Ronald Reagan in here yesterday.
▶ 2:42:29He said the government's idea on the economy is when it's moving, you tax it. If it keeps moving, you regulate it. When it fails, you subsidize it. And very often I think our regulations are causing some serious problems certainly for consumers. And now I think for producers nationally. So Miss Cook, since you're the economic expert on the panel, um how many Californians and I'll go back to you too, Miss Roa, on this once. Is it Roachcha? Did we say
▶ 2:42:51oh Rocha?
▶ 2:42:52Sorry, I got to get that right. Okay. Um, so
▶ 2:42:56how many Californians do the two of you think would purchase or continue to purchase the Prop 12 raised price port given the chances if they could purchase the less affordable option that was not Prop 12? What do you think, Miss Cook? Any idea? Do we have any research or any thoughts on that?
▶ 2:43:12I think what the data is showing us that with these much higher prices, Californians as a whole, what the data is showing is they're willing and able to purchase less pork. So with that choice restricted from them, we're seeing them consume less but still paying and spending more.
▶ 2:43:25I mean, yeah, the families are still struggling, right? So if they have an option, if they can buy something that's 20% cheaper, 41% cher in this in the case of special cuts, I can imagine why they wouldn't buy the less expensive. But what about it, Miss Roach? What do you think?
▶ 2:43:37Yeah. Um I I know that our consumers um you know, are are diverse and we appreciate having the choice. So, I think that um the the majority of our restaurant owners would appreciate having um the availabil availability to purchase pork at a reasonable and affordable price so that they can make make money um in their businesses.
▶ 2:43:59But I think for you know overall I I do believe that we would appreciate having the choice of of purchasing either or whatever type of pork we would like to
▶ 2:44:10I mean I agree in a restaurant business labor cost and food cost are two of your highest cost. And so if you can help trim that, it helps the business survive the long haul, so to speak. So anyway, thank you. And Mr. Chairman, I'm going to yield a full minute and 45 seconds
▶ 2:44:23I thank the gentleman yielding back. Uh now, please recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Lamala, for five
▶ 2:44:30Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. Uh I guess I'm uh the only California Republican on this uh dis here today. So uh we do have a different perspective of me uh living that firsthand as a citizen as well as a as an egg producer there. And um my just inherent desire that why would we force California's problems on the rest of the country?
▶ 2:44:57you know, why would we force LA and San Francisco thinking on the other 49 states other than those that have already jumped in? So, I uh I I look at who's driving it and these are the same foes as a long time. You know, there's American Humane Society, which are good folks at the national level and American level.
▶ 2:45:18Then you have the Humane Society of the United States which has carefully crafted that name to differentiate themselves from the American Humane Society and certainly their mission is crafted completely different than it is about taking care of animals individually. They raise tens hundreds of millions of dollars and they spend about 1% on on the actual humane treatment of animals unlike the uh syrupy ads you would see on TV.
▶ 2:45:45They're very well healed and they do battle in California, I'll have to say, pretty effectively because uh uh one issue I sided with them on was uh the cutting the fins off sharks and just leaving the rest of the shark, which doesn't seem very sportsmanlike to me. If you're going to take game, then you you should use all the game and use it respectfully.
▶ 2:46:06But then one thing after another, it's been on uh using hounds for hunting, hunting bear and bobcat, which actually something helpful for hunters to differentiate with which one they should be looking at, which one they should leave. But then we get down to this issue. Humane Society of the United States is well known to be against the use of livestock for people's nutrition.
▶ 2:46:30So, by every uh death by a thousand cuts, I should say, um one bit at a time, they're trying to take that away. They're trying to take away hunting rights. They don't want people hunting uh game on on any lands. And so, this is this is what you're up against. So, this is by a death by thousand cuts by uh one bit at a time. We had Proposition 2 10 years before Proposition 12 which worked to try and make larger areas for animals.
▶ 2:46:59You know, there's an argument for it, right? And the voters passed it. Uh that was 2008 as I as I recall here. And so um two years later, and that was in order to have uh larger cages for for hands as well as more space for ve and and uh and others. So, well, two years later, they worked to amend that interpretation that other states would now have to do also the same as under Prop 2 with their with their hens.
▶ 2:47:29Uh, increasing their cage size, which we ran into that my first term in this committee here. Um, so California was dictating how that would be done. So, that's that's prop two back in 2008. Someone was asking earlier, will they keep doing this? Yeah, California can keep doing it anytime they want because you saw 10 years later Prop 12 was passed.
▶ 2:47:51And it's not too tough for well-healed organizations to put these things on the ballot and then convince voters via well-healed ads running off and on TV. I remember the Prop 12 ads are very dramatic. They had pictures of animal abuse going on, which we all are against, and the and what they were depicting would actually be prosecuted without any of these laws. There was one particular graphic scene where somebody I think it was on a dairy was picking up a cow with a forklift, you know, an injured or very ill cow.
▶ 2:48:20And so that was shown as abusive. And this was the uh this was the picture they were painting of what uh livestock raising is like in California. And so the threat is constantly going to be there from organizations like this being able to place for three million bucks and a lot of sympathy these issues on the ballot and get them passed in the Bay Area and LA and some of those coastal areas like that.
▶ 2:48:44If I showed you the map of how these uh votes went, especially Prop 12, which took it to an extreme, uh all the internal counties of California, all the ones that have any kind of significance of agriculture, voted against Prop 12. It's the coastal areas and the elite areas of California that are voting this stuff in. So, I guess in my remaining time, I would throw out there, this does drive cost.
▶ 2:49:10We heard a bunch of drama earlier about uh people getting kicked off the program or people are going to go there'll be much hunger much people go hungry you know when really what the focus was was on uh illegal immigrants receiving benefits and people that should be at work receiving endless benefits as well. So I guess throwing it back to the panel if you want to comment further later with other other questioners.
▶ 2:49:33Um, you just see this is affecting the cost of food for everybody for people using SNAP for all consumers and anybody wants to dwell on that in further conversation since I burned my five minutes. You know, we know what the fact is. It's going to make it harder on everybody to afford food across the country. Those on SNAP especially that we hear so much concern about on the other side that we're supposedly kicking off on this thing. So, California can keep passing this stuff.
▶ 2:50:02we need to resist it and not force our bad ideas on the rest of the country. So, I'll yield back, Mr.
▶ 2:50:08Gentleman yields back. Uh before I introduce Dr. to take the opportunity to uh seek unanimous consent. Um there has u u been a uh some misleading information that uh you know Pennsylvania which is a a growing hog producing state um uh that there is uh uh complete opposition in Pennsylvania, the Commonwealth Pennsylvania, my my home state, um uh to uh
▶ 2:50:39um basically finding a path forward to uh overcome uh Proposition So, uh, seek unanimous consent to submit for the record an op-ed by the Pennsylvania Farm Bureau President Chris Hoffman, where he offers support for section 12009 of the Farm, Food, and National Security Act of 2024. Without objection, this letter will be entered into the record.
▶ 2:51:06And now, I'm pleased to introduce the uh the gentleman from Indiana, Dr. Baird, for five minutes.
▶ 2:51:13Thank you, Mr. chairman and thank the witnesses for being here. You know, I just can't resist and I hope you'll indulge me, Mr. Chairman. I just can't resist some of the things I've done in my past, but uh uh not all thing. Anyway, I have a PhD uh in monogastric nutrition and everyone in this room is a monogastric whether you know it or not, but mono single gastric stomach.
▶ 2:51:38And so I'm want to stand up for the pigs in this situation because we had uh we we need to recognize uh how capable they are of adapting to various kinds of environment and production systems. And when I was at Purdue working on a master's degree, we compared gestation systems and one of those was a pasture system. The neck was a monoslope uh group housing where you had a slided floor up front and we used to call them the Cargill unit.
▶ 2:52:06Uh and then uh we had a tether a tethered unit as well where you tied them up with a neck. And the thing I want to point out here is that we found over time in that research project and I found that on the farm when I was growing up, you end up you end up calling those animals that aren't well suited to that environment or that building. And a producer actually knows uh which is best and which produces the most and most efficient. Absolutely. They know exactly how that works.
▶ 2:52:35And so what we found too as a sideline I did I did some work in art some of the earliest work uh in this country Europe had done it for a long time in artificial simination in pigs and that was part of that project. But back to what I wanted to mention u we found in that research that that through natural culling you actually ended up with a a a suite of animals or a group of animals that was well suited to that environment.
▶ 2:53:03Some of them never really adapted to the to the tethering situation, for example, but but there were others that when they went to the fairing house and came back, they knew where their stall was in that in that facility and would go back. They tended to be the more timid kinds of individuals where out in the pasture, you know, they could interact with other other individuals and in the group housing you had that same kind of concern. So, uh I just couldn't resist u sharing that.
▶ 2:53:30And the other thing I would share uh in terms of pigs, the reason the reason that they look for water and look for they end up being in mud holes, so to speak, but they uh they do not have sweat glands. So the only the only means they have to cool themselves is evaporative cooling and that takes water. And if you really knew pigs, they would prefer to have a nice just a comfortable shower than they would to lay in the mud hole. But that's that's what it is.
▶ 2:53:59And uh so uh you got to give you got to give these animals credit. Uh and I don't think a lot of people recognize how important it is to have the animals um uh perform well and the efficiency that it takes uh to be profitable in the in that situation. So I've probably said enough, Mr. Chairman, but I could uh share other stories with you, but I can tell you want me to you want me to go on.
▶ 2:54:27So anyway, uh I want to I want to ask this question uh from everyone because the national pork producers were concerned about Prop 12 and we've been concerned about Prop 12 for a long time. Uh but Prop 12 doesn't inherently inherently improve animal welfare. In fact, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the largest association representing veterinarians, supports the chairman's fix.
▶ 2:54:52uh they do not support pro P prop Prop 12 because it fails to follow the science and it limits the flexibility of farmers and vets in order to best serve their animals. So I'd like to ask our producers first uh what's your experience with Prop 12 style of housing for SAS? Uh is the injury incident higher in those situations and isn't that bad for animals? So I'll start with our two producers. Mr. board.
▶ 2:55:24Thank you, Congressman. uh our experience is is that animal welfare is a complex uh issue of multiple things as you uh being a a PhD that's impressive a nutritionist and and you understand there's there's nutrition there's animal husbandry and our uh our experience is is that um the the biggest impact is how do we care how we care for them and how do we how we take care of them is is the leading indicator of
▶ 2:55:54of of animal welfare. Thank you.
▶ 2:55:58And you certainly have to recognize that, you know, a producer, how are you going to make any money if you don't take care of the animals, you know?
▶ 2:56:05And so that's a very important aspect of animal husbandry. So,
▶ 2:56:08yep, for sure.
▶ 2:56:09Good answer. Yes, sir.
▶ 2:56:12Thank you, Dr. Bard, for the question and for your research. I don't have a lot to add to what Mr. hords sitter to your experiences, but uh just the ability to care for your animals and a big piece of husbandry is understanding the animal and knowing how the animal acts and knowing what that animal is going to do. And so I don't have much to add, but I thank you for experience.
▶ 2:56:32Anyone else care to comment? So anyway, I guess I'd just say, Mr. chairman that uh I guess I've already gone over my time, haven't I? Anyway, thank you for for being here and sharing your expertise with us and for this committee. It helps us make better decisions. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:57:02Well, Dr. B, thank you for sharing your experience and uh and your knowledge. Much appreciated, my friend. Um we uh before we adjourn um I need to extend my apologies u or the ranking member want to extend her apologies. She was pulled away.
▶ 2:57:20Um she was hoping that would time up better but she certainly says sends her appreciation to all of our witnesses who took you know went went through um you know the the time the the cost to to travel here and to share your perspectives. Um and um let me add my closing as as well. Um let's be clear about Prop 12. Prop Prop 12 has hurt small and medium-sized producers.
▶ 2:57:51Prop 12 has hurt consumers with increased cost impacting food affordability. That's something we talk a lot about in a bipartisan way in this uh Prop 12 has the potential, as we've heard, to actually uh result in harm for the SAS uh through the compliance that is required. Prop 12 ignores agriculture science.
▶ 2:58:18And quite frankly, American agriculture can be defined as science, technology, and innovation. As we've heard today, Prop 12 has hurt our small familyowned restaurants. um and folks in that supply chain for our restaurants. It's an industry that uh that survives on only uh I would say a range of 3 to 10% profit, closer to 3% most days.
▶ 2:58:47And so any mandate of adding costs uh will hurt uh hurt those familyowned businesses and and uh jobs um and food accessibility uh for folks that are going uh to those looking to those restaurants for their nutrition. Um, so the question I have, you know, some some have claimed that Prop 12 is a mandate, but what is a mandate? 100%.
▶ 2:59:16I would say that's a that's probably a mandate. Eight 90% that's pretty good. That'd be a mandate. 80% mandate. Let's get on. I think 51% would be a mandate. Maybe 50%. Uh, you know, maybe uh let's be generous. Say 40% is a mandate. Um, and although Prop 12, the Prop 12 initiative passed in 2018, it was far from a mandate for the record.
▶ 2:59:44Only 20% of Californians voted in that election. And of those 20%, only 13% uh that voted in California approved this ill-thought provision. Uh, 13% of Californians.
▶ 3:00:04that is not a mandate and I think that's why we have seen all the signals not just from justice Gorsuch I read it from uh at least two other uh justices in the Supreme Court who said that Cong this is a responsibility Congress has to fix.
▶ 3:00:20Um, this committee will consider a measured correction that preserves states rights to control their internal agriculture practices, will protect interstate commerce, and preserve states animal health regulations and laws. Um, and so, uh, a huge thank you to our witnesses for coming here and and to sharing your perspective and your expertise. I thought this was an outstanding hearing.
▶ 3:00:46A thank you to our staff uh that uh for all of your work uh to make this a successful hearing and to the members who um u quite frankly under a lot of pressure today with a lot of things are going on and uh u and the time you know the time constraints that we're under that that came out uh and uh and ask questions today.
▶ 3:01:08So under the rules of the committee, the record of today's hearing will remain open for 10 calendar days to receive additional m material and supplementary written responses from the witnesses to any question posed by a member. This hearing of the committee on agriculture is adjourned.