▶ 0:43:46Will come to order. I want to wish everybody a good afternoon. I want to welcome our members, our witnesses and guests in the audience to today's hearing. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time under committee rule for any oral opening. Statements at hearings are limited to the chair and the ranking member. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all members opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with committee rule three, 0 or 3.
▶ 0:44:17Oh, I should say without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the congressman from arizona, doctor gosar, and the congressman from washington, Mr. newhouse, be allowed to participate in today's hearing. Without objection. So ordered. We're here today to consider five legislative measures. First, h.r. 2073, defending our dams act, sponsored by representative newhouse of washington, h.r. 3006 92, to reauthorize the young fishermen's development act, sponsored by representative moulton of massachusetts. H.r.
▶ 0:44:494255, the enhancing safety for animals act of 2025, sponsored by representative gosar of arizona h.r. 4256, the digital coast reauthorization act of 2025, sponsored by representative men of california and h.r. 4970. The orland project water management act, sponsored by representative lamalfa of california. I now recognize myself for a five minute opening statement today.
▶ 0:45:16The subcommittee on water, wildlife and fisheries will examine five bills. These bills represent a wide array of issues under this subcommittee's jurisdiction, including the management of esa listed species, maintaining public power delivery and infrastructure, and reauthorizing important expiring programs. In particular, I'd like to highlight two of the bills before us today, first being h.r. 4255, sponsored by representative gosar.
▶ 0:45:43This bill would heed the calls for state, local, and tribal governments to provide sanity to the management of the mexican wolf. The reintroduction of the mexican wolf in western new mexico and eastern arizona was a science experiment thrust upon the people living there without their consent. In the decades since, ranching communities and small businesses have suffered tremendously from the impact of the wolves presence.
▶ 0:46:08These impacts include the financial burden of increasing livestock depredations, and the loss of wildlife populations that are integral to local hunting industries. In the face of this crisis, counties at the epicenter of the mexican wolf program have begun to pass emergency declarations due to the financial burdens placed upon them. These resolutions have been followed by resolutions from state, local, and tribal governments passed in support of these counties. H.r.
▶ 0:46:374255 responds to the devastation these communities have faced by removing the mexican wolf from the list of endangered and threatened species. Turning to h.r. 2073, the defending our dams act, sponsored by representative newhouse. Over the last several decades and over the course of the 118th congress, the lower snake river dams, part of the federal columbia river power system, have faced operational uncertainty due to ongoing litigation and pressure from environmental activists that are focused on their removal.
▶ 0:47:08Under the biden administration, a settlement agreement was reached that committed 1 billion over the course of ten years to study the future of the lower snake river dams. Many stakeholders believe that this settlement agreement was designed to lay the foundation to breach the lower snake river dams.
▶ 0:47:25Congressman newhouse's bill that we are considering today would prevent any federal funds from being used to remove the lower snake river dams and engage in any efforts to study their removal, or provide technical assistance for their removal. This legislation builds on action that president trump has taken to withdraw from the flawed settlement agreement, and will provide certainty to all of those who benefit from this critical infrastructure across the pacific northwest. With that, I want to take time to thank our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 0:47:56I look forward to a robust conversation. I'd now like to recognize our ranking member, representative hoyle, for her opening statement. Thank you. >> good afternoon. Today, we're considering five bills on wildlife conservation and natural resource management. H.r. 3692 and h.r. 4256 are strong bipartisan proposals.
▶ 0:48:20Representative moulton's young fishermen's development act reauthorization will continue supporting the next generation of commercial fishermen facing the graying of the fleet challenge representative men's digital coast reauthorization act will help our coastal communities access critical data and tools to address climate impacts and plan future developments, representative lamalfa bill, h.r.
▶ 0:48:434970, would allow water transfers from the orland project to california's central valley project at any time at the request of the orland unit water users association, rather than just during drought emergencies. I understand drought and water availability are major challenges in california. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses here today on this legislation. Um, however, I do have some serious concerns about the remaining bills.
▶ 0:49:11Um, representative gosars h.r. 4255 would prematurely strip mexican gray wolves of endangered species act protections when only 286 wolves exist in the wild. The fact is, the mexican gray wolf is not ready to be delisted. Instead, we should work together to get mexico to do its part to help us properly recover this migratory species. Finally, representative newhouse's h.r.
▶ 0:49:37273 would prohibit federal funds from allowing, leading to, or even studying the breach or functional alteration of the four lower snake river dams. It also prevents any spillage operations unless they're approved by the secretary of the army and the bonneville power administration.
▶ 0:49:57This bill follows the administration's recent decisions to withdraw from the resilient columbia basin agreement between the federal government, the states of washington and oregon, and four tribes, including the nez perce tribe, whose chairman is here with us today. Uh, salmon recovery is critical for the pacific northwest ecosystems, our economy, as well as for the federal government's responsibility to tribal nations.
▶ 0:50:25And whether or not you think that dam removal is the way to achieve that goal. And I do recognize a wide range of views on this issue. This is not an easy issue to address. The fact is, it's already federal law that congress must explicitly authorize any removal of an army army corps dam, as well as any reduction in authorized usage. I unfortunately, I can't get behind the fact that h.r.
▶ 0:50:54273 would ban studies into what it would take to replace or modify these dams. Now, these dams provide nearly one third of the pacific northwest power. They're central for regional trade. They help with flood control, and they are the subject of major environmental debate.
▶ 0:51:15But we shouldn't tie our own hands from being able to research their impacts, even while we acknowledge that right now, there is no other way to replace that power. Now, in the transportation infrastructure committee, where I'm also a member, we regularly pass water resources development acts that require the army corps studies of all sorts of issues.
▶ 0:51:37I'm not aware of any recent order barring the corps from reviewing the future needs of a project like this bill would. It's just seems like it seems like overreach. And the fact is, if the lower snake river dams are truly irreplaceable, as some claim, then we should see the facts to prove it. And we would want the data that would help us effectively manage them.
▶ 0:52:04I would like to thank chairman wheeler from the nez perce tribe for joining us today and sharing his experience and expertise on these issues and moving forward. I hope we can work together on collaborative solutions to salmon recovery in the pacific northwest, like habitat restoration and hatchery funding. Thank you. And I yield back. >> I'd like to thank our ranking member, representative hoyle, for her opening statement. And I'll now introduce our first panel.
▶ 0:52:31As is typical with these legislative hearings, the bill sponsors are recognized for five minutes each to discuss their bills. And we'll now begin with congressman gosar for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, allowing me to wave on to the subcommittee today, my bill, h.r. 4255, the enhancing safety for animals act, would delist the nonessential experimental mexican wolf from the endangered species act and linked the populations of the wolf in the us and mexico.
▶ 0:53:00The intent of this delisting is not to decrease the number of mexican wolves, but to modernize the esa, to work with a whole community and start effectively managing these populations. In the gospel of luke, the parable of the lost sheep describes the shepherd who has 100 sheep but loses one. He goes after that one lost sheep until he finds it, and rejoices when he, the lost sheep, can be reunited with herd. Why?
▶ 0:53:29Because one loss is not just a number, it is a detrimental loss to shepherd and to the entire herd. It is no different for rural ranchers and farmers. As the population of mexican wolves increase, so does livestock and other animal depredations. The original 1982 mexican wolf recovery plan reads, quote, the wolf's ability to take cattle in its normal.
▶ 0:53:58Predation predilection is to choose whatever prey is easiest to take, must be borne in mind in the choice and management of the release areas. Areas be considered for initial releases of wolves should be first. Those with little or no existing livestock grazing into the quote. Federal government knew in 1982 the release of these predators would be detrimental to the cattle industry. Why haven't they learned or changed management styles in 43 years later?
▶ 0:54:26This is the ninth year of moving the goalposts. Let's not plead insanity and continue to do the same thing over and over, at the cost of american safety and livelihoods. The enhancing safety for animals act will give local communities the flexibility for their managing of their own property, and to ease the financial burden on american taxpayers footing. The bill for this mismanagement.
▶ 0:54:52I'm hopeful that under the leadership of the trump administration, especially the associate deputy secretary, karen bud fallon, congress can finally make a common sense right of a wrong that harms these rural americans. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I look forward to hearing from your other witnesses today. Thank you. >> I thank the gentleman from arizona on his testimony on h.r. 4255, the enhancing safety for animals act of 2025. We will now go to representative men of california. >> can I just. >> oh, please. I'm sorry. Yes.
▶ 0:55:24Go. Go right ahead. >> um, Mr. chair, I ask for unanimous consent that representatives maxine dexter of oregon, representatives emily randall of washington and representative seth moulton of massachusetts have permission to sit on the dais and participate in today's hearing. >> without objection. Thank you. We'll now go to representative men of california for his testimony on his bill, h.r. 4256, the digital coast reauthorization act of 2025. Mr. men, you are recognized. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:55:51Chair, for convening this hearing and for considering my bill, the digital coast reauthorization act. I also want to thank you for co-leading this legislation. Uh, the digital coast reauthorization act would reauthorize noaa's digital coast program for another five years, as well as make several important technical amendments to ensure that the tools and data sets that noaa uses remain free for the public's continued benefit.
▶ 0:56:12As one of the chairs of the coastal communities caucus, the bipartisan caucus I know firsthand representing a coastal district, uh, how important our coastlines are. America's coasts are home to nearly 40% of the nation's population.
▶ 0:56:27Coastal economies produce over $10 trillion with a t in goods and services every year, employing nearly 55 million people and powering powering a wide range of critical industries including commercial fishing, maritime commerce and outdoor recreation and tourism. Our coastlines and beaches are treasured part of america's cultural identity for a reason, which is why california and other states have enshrined access to the coast as a basic right in our communities now and in our constitutions.
▶ 0:56:55I know that when I talk to people from outside of the coastal areas in california, they all consider our beaches and coastlines their own. It's an important part of our identity. But coastal cities face many complex and costly challenges that have made it increasingly difficult to plan for the future, including storms, flooding and wildfire. Coastal erosion imposes a increasingly existential threat, uh, erasing shorelines and potentially causing coastal bluffs and homes to subside and crumble into the ocean.
▶ 0:57:24Uh, expected to contribute nearly $500 million in property damage every year in orange county, which I represent. A study by the us geological survey found that up to two thirds of our region's beaches could disappear. This century now knows digital coast exists because coastal communities cannot navigate these challenges on our own. Digital coast compiles hundreds of data sets on coastal hazards, from high resolution satellite imagery to economic impacts, and provides them to the public for free.
▶ 0:57:51It also hosts interactive tools and user friendly trainings to help translate these data sets into real world strategies. Digital coast has helped technicians monitor stormwater runoff, mitigate flooding hazards. It's helped local governments map out future risks to coastal coastal infrastructure and housing. It's helped emergency planners design evacuation routes for natural disasters, and it's helped average citizens who want to know more about the shorelines in their communities.
▶ 0:58:17Over 75% of coastal projects that use digital coast ultimately credit the program to their success, and many private companies and engineering firms would not be able to run their businesses without access to these free data sets. The program delivers a substantial return on taxpayer dollars over the next 15 years. Noaa predicts that digital coasts will produce over a 400% return and sustain hundreds of high tech jobs throughout the country. Digital coast has been a hallmark example of federal and local partnership.
▶ 0:58:46The program produces valuable data incorporated in state and local emergency planning, including preparations for catastrophic scenarios like storms and tsunamis. For example, the california geographical survey uses lidar data from digital coast for seismic hazards program and tsunami unit, which it uses to generate tsunami models, identify hazardous areas, and develop new tools to aid disaster response.
▶ 0:59:08In my district, digital coast data sets are helping the university of california, irvine build safer and more flood resistant communities. Land cover and elevation data sets are helping pilot coastal flood risks in orange county, as well as sites around the country. And according to uc irvine, this research will be far more difficult and costly without digital coast. So, Mr. chair, I would with that, like to, uh, ask for unanimous consent to enter the record.
▶ 0:59:33Several letters of support for the digital coast reauthorization act, including from orange county, coastkeeper, surfrider foundation and the digital coast partnership coalition. >> without objection. >> I would also like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from cal oes, california's emergency preparedness office, summarizing just how digital coast has helped improve disaster awareness and response in the state. >> also without objection. >> thank you. I'm proud to lead this bill with strong bipartisan coalitions and want to again, thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:00:00Chair, for your co-leading and for your leadership on this issue, as well as subcommittee vice chair mike, all congress members, sarah elfreth, uh, jen higgins and amata radewagen for co-sponsoring. I'd like to also thank chair westerman and ranking member huffman and their teams for their support in getting this bill included in today's hearing. This is a strong bill with bipartisan support, and I would respectfully ask for your support on it. Thanks very much. >> I thank the gentleman from california for his leadership, for introducing this bill and for your testimony on h.r.
▶ 1:00:304256, the digital coast reauthorization act of 2025. Thank you. We will now go to the gentleman from california, Mr. lamalfa, on his bill, h.r. 4009 70, the orland project water management act. >> thank you, chairman. Mr. whitman, appreciate it. Um, it's a really straightforward, simple bill. Um, orland project water management act in located in glenn county in northern california.
▶ 1:00:57Um, is, uh, a basic piece to, uh, because of the 1991 reclamation states emergency drought relief act. Uh, the water being able to be put to good use sometimes cannot be done. So the reason is that, uh, there's water transfers can only be done during a drought declaration having been made by the governor of our home state.
▶ 1:01:23So with that, what it means is that in most years, the orland project has water that could and should be transferred on an annual basis to the central valley project to be good, to put, be put to good use. Water can be transferred to cvp to help meet needs of other towns or farmers down in that direction, or help to help to recharge the groundwater aquifers down in that region, which subsidence is a big problem for them, and so that water can be helpful in that.
▶ 1:01:53So in the orland project, water cannot be transferred due to that 1991 law. The east park and stony gorge reservoirs will fill up, and the flood releases must be made in order to prevent them from overtopping. Losing that water, and unable to use it anywhere else so that water then becomes useless.
▶ 1:02:10My bill fixes this problem by changing federal law to allow water transfers from the orland project to the central valley project at any time, at the request of the orland project water users association to the cvp. Obviously, the needs of the district itself will be met first, but when there's a point where there's excess water, um, use at the right time, the right place, then it can be made available and not have the law prevent them from doing so.
▶ 1:02:40So what the issue basically is, uh, the water would be wasted when it has to be released due to, uh, the dam getting too full in the winter time in a high rain year. And they have to, of course, leave flood space there for, for that. And the water then would have the ability to be transferred and be used be used for, for good purpose. So today we'll be hearing from our constituents their bill vanderwaal, who's with the okaloosa county authority, which is part of the central valley project, about the need for this bill.
▶ 1:03:10So I look forward to his testimony. The audience you also have, uh, greg, chris, who's the general manager of the unit water users association, is also supporting the bill. Greg is not testifying the panel today. He does have prepared testimony, which we will submit to the chairwoman and the committee. I ask unanimous consent. That indeed puts back put into the record, madam chair. So. Caught flat footed.
▶ 1:03:38I have a I want to have a. >> without objection. >> prepared testimony be put in the record. Thank you, madam chair. So, uh, thank you again, madam, for holding today's hearing and including the water project, uh, orland project water management act in in the list of bills today. So I yield back the rest of my time. Thank you. >> thank you. And I want to thank the members for their testimony. I will now introduce our second panel. Mr.
▶ 1:04:05Dustin scheer, the senior advisor to the assistant secretary for water and science at the us department of interior in washington, dc. Under committee rules, you must limit your oral statement to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone and we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green.
▶ 1:04:29When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I now recognize Mr. scheer for five minutes. >> thank you. Chair hagerman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. My name is dustin scheer, senior advisor to the assistant secretary for water and science at the department of the interior.
▶ 1:04:54I appreciate the opportunity to address interior's views on the orland project water management act and the defending our dams act, starting with congressman malthus. Legislation. This bill would amend the reclamation states emergency drought relief act of 1991 to allow the transfer of excess water from the orland project to the central valley project.
▶ 1:05:15The orland project, operating in north central california, is one of the bureau of reclamation's oldest projects, covering portions of glen, tehama and colusa counties. It irrigates about 21,000 acres, just 1% of the sacramento valley's total irrigable land. Water for the project is supplied by stoney creek, and infrastructure includes two primary dams and an extensive canal system.
▶ 1:05:40The region enjoys rich agricultural conditions, a lengthy growing season of more than 260 days, and highly productive soils. Water is managed for maximum benefit, supporting local farms and communities. Over the years, the reclamation states emergency drought relief act has proven vital in helping communities plan, prepare for, and respond to drought.
▶ 1:06:04Reclamation through this act provides financial and technical assistance for drought contingency planning and, when needed, carries out temporary emergency measures such as storage or conveyance projects and short term water purchases to lessen the impact of crisis. Drought events. H.r. 4970 seeks to address immediate and long term water management needs by permitting the sale of excess orland project water to the sacramento canals unit of the central valley project.
▶ 1:06:31This flexibility would help respond to critical shortages, ensuring water can be directed to where it is urgently needed, while still protecting the vital interest of orland project water users. Presently, water rights tied to the project restrict use to specific orland project lands. This bill would allow for the sale of water in excess of the needs of the orland unit water users association by temporary contract. The department supports h.r. 4970.
▶ 1:06:56It offers this water district the autonomy to move excess water, enhancing the region's ability to withstand drought and other changing conditions. Turning to congressman newhouse's legislation, this bill would prohibit the use of federal funds to study or initiate the breach of, or alteration of the four lower snake river dams.
▶ 1:07:17These dams ice harbor, lower monumental, little goose, and lower granite, are operated by the us army corps of engineers and form part of the larger federal columbia river system, which also includes key reclamation projects like grand coulee dam on the columbia river in washington and hungry horse dam on the south fork flathead river in montana. The lower snake river dams provide enough electricity to power 750,000 homes, helping to buffer variable supply from wind and solar.
▶ 1:07:45Beyond their energy role, these dams are essential for regional barge transportation and sustained irrigation infrastructure vital to numerous farmers and rural communities. The columbia snake system is a critical way. Bulk agricultural commodities like wheat, soybeans, and corn move to markets with barges on the snake river handling nearly 10% of all us wheat exports. In addition to the economic benefits of providing ready access to world markets, river barging provides significant efficiency and environmental benefits.
▶ 1:08:15A regional trade group estimated it would have required over 47,000 rail cars, or more than 180,000 semi trucks, to transport the equivalent 4.7 million tons of cargo moved on the snake river by barges in 2022. In 2020, a joint environmental impact statement and record of decision developed by reclamation, the bonneville power administration, and the corps analyzed alternatives including possible dam breaching.
▶ 1:08:42The agency's opted for a balanced operational approach that addressed both natural resource protections and broad regional needs. Importantly, the preferred alternative did not recommend breaching these dams, and any future breaching would require additional congressional authorization and appropriations. More recently, a presidential memorandum issued in june 2025 directed withdrawal from an agreement that had included a federal commitment to study water supply alternatives should any lower snake river dam be breached.
▶ 1:09:10As a result, reclamation terminated its study on water supply replacement for affected areas in idaho and washington. The department currently has no ongoing activities that would be impacted by h.r. 2073. Thank you for the opportunity to provide the department's views, and I look forward to your questions. >> I thank the witness for his testimony, and I will now recognize members for five minutes each for questioning. And I'm going to begin with myself. Mr. scheer, would the transfers contemplated in h.r.
▶ 1:09:424970? Mr. lamalfa bill require physical modification to reclamations, infrastructure, or can they be accommodated through the existing conveyance systems? >> thank you for the question, madam chair. They can be accommodated through the existing infrastructure. >> okay. And in what years? Like we experienced in 2019 and 2023. How would these transfers allow for increased flexibility and improved water management across the cvp?
▶ 1:10:11>> the cvp is a complicated water system with lots of various state owned or federally owned reservoirs, and so when you have the ability to move excess water from one part where you have it in excess to another part where you may be able to store it and hold it for a dry year when someone else may need it. Uh, providing that type of flexibility is just good management. >> I agree with you. In wyoming, we have a variety of reclamation projects, and we're able to move water from one reservoir to another and account for it.
▶ 1:10:39So we'll store water in glendo reservoir, for example. That belongs to the pathfinder, uh, the pathfinder reservoir and the and permittees. So it is a way to use flexibility in a way that or to to have flexibility to be able to better manage our water resources. Would you agree with that? >> yes, madam chair, I would. >> okay.
▶ 1:11:01Um, with that I am going to I'm going to yield the remainder of my time, and I am going to call on Mr. huffman for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair, and good afternoon, Mr. chair. So, uh, I think you're aware of this. In december of 2023, four tribes, two states, five federal agencies and nonprofits all reached a historic agreement on columbia river salmon restoration.
▶ 1:11:28It's called the resilient columbia basin agreement. Familiar with that? >> I am. >> um, as you know, uh, president trump blew that up, uh, in june with this presidential memorandum entitled stopping radical environmentalism to generate power for the columbia river basin. Um, I would submit, Mr.
▶ 1:11:51Scheer, there's nothing radical about honoring tribal treaty rights or wanting functional salmon runs that people can actually fish, or building clean energy to address both climate change and salmon extinction. And what I'm wondering is whether, in advance of this presidential memorandum, uh, did you or anyone else in the administration actually consult with the four lower columbia river treaty tribes before this went out?
▶ 1:12:22>> congresswoman, I can't speak for anybody else in the administration in advance of that memorandum. I certainly did not speak. You did not for leverage. Uh. >> did did you or anyone else in the administration consult with the states of oregon or washington before this memorandum blew everything up? >> I can't speak for anybody else in the administration, I did not. >> well, I kind of thought the answer would be no. And I am extremely disappointed in that.
▶ 1:12:48The resilient columbia basin agreement took years to create, and the president has thrown all of that away, seemingly with the stroke of a pen. And so I need to ask you, Mr. scheer, what is this administration's plan to address columbia and snake river salmon? Do you have something better than this, something that will replace it?
▶ 1:13:10>> well, I think both the ranking members opening statement and your the opening to your question, uh, reflect why the administration was keen on withdrawing from that agreement. You referenced four sovereigns. Um, and you didn't reference any of the stakeholders from the transportation sector, the irrigation sector, the power sector or the recreation sector. And as you will hear, I believe. >> I know you're very interested in those stakeholders. What I'm asking you, though, is you blew up a salmon restoration plan.
▶ 1:13:38Do you have anything to replace it with? >> what we blew up was an agreement between the six sovereigns and the federal government under the previous administration. And if there is an agreement to be had, we will have all of the stakeholders at the table to come up with something that everyone can live with. >> do you have a plan? >> we are working to figure out whether or not there is a path forward on a plan. >> is restoring the salmon runs in the columbia river basin a priority?
▶ 1:14:07Is this something that you want to do that you want to have a plan for? >> there are ongoing restoration projects in other areas of the columbia river basin, um, to restore salmon, steelhead. >> but that's not what I asked. I mean, lots of people are doing good work. You're the administration. You're the department of the interior. Do you have a plan? Is it a priority you have identified because you just blew up this historic six sovereign agreement that was going to address this long neglected, huge priority of the pacific northwest?
▶ 1:14:35Shouldn't you at least have something to replace it with? >> the department understands that it's a priority to restore habitat and salmon populations in the pacific northwest, and we're going to continue to use existing authorities where we can to to accomplish that. >> as we sit here today, you're unable to point to anything specific that you're doing that might backfill for this on salmon restoration. >> well, like I pointed out, uh, you know, we still have ongoing restoration. Uh. >> other people are doing stuff. >> phase two implementation plan. >> I understand other people. Thank goodness other people are doing some stuff.
▶ 1:15:05Um, what about building out the clean energy that this was going to provide? I, I'm going to answer my own question. I know what you're doing on clean energy. Actually, um, I don't think you have a plan to replace the clean energy that's blown up by this executive order. But the six sovereigns did have a plan, and they're still trying to restore salmon and to solve other critical challenges in the northwest. Mr. sure. I want to urge you to work with them.
▶ 1:15:33Um, the fact that there were no conversations, that there was no consultation, that the president simply did an executive order and did such violence to this carefully crafted, multi-stakeholder agreement, um, just shows a recklessness that is deeply disturbing. And I hope as you move forward that you will do better, that you will bring everyone to the table and that that will include tribes.
▶ 1:15:57I'm also disappointed that here we are again talking about something as complex as salmon restoration and watershed, um, issues in the columbia river basin. And we don't have anyone from noaa, uh, as a witness. Now, in the last congress, every time we talked about this, my republican colleagues could not hammer on noaa hard enough. Noah was at the tip of the spear. Noah had to answer all the hard questions. And now we have yet to have noah here to testify.
▶ 1:16:27And anything in this committee. And I think it just speaks volumes. Madam chair, I will yield back. >> thank you. I do want the record to reflect that the salmon runs are triple what they were when the first dam went in, in the 1930s. I think that's important. The chair now recognizes congresswoman radewagen for five minutes of questioning.
▶ 1:17:01>> thank you. Chairwoman, chairman and ranking member hoyle for holding this hearing today. Thank you to the witness for your testimony. And I want to take a moment to express my support for h.r. 3692 to reauthorize the young fishermen's development act, of which I'm a proud co-sponsor.
▶ 1:17:24This legislation will provide tools to support and establish seafood businesses, and set the next generation of fishermen up for success. Although the national sea grant college program, this bill would normally fall under did not make it into the president's 2026 budget, the president and the administration have been have proven to be friends of the american fishermen with common sense measures, such as the president's executive order to reopen fishing around the
▶ 1:17:54Pacific remote islands marine national monument. And I'm extremely grateful that he agreed to do the eo at my request, which helped greatly my home district and our tuna industry. I know that if congress passes h.r. 3692, the administration will run the program with the same zeal and efficiency we've come to expect. Mr. scheer, thank you again for being here.
▶ 1:18:20I know your main expertise lies with water management, so I'll be submitting some questions for the record about h.r. 3692 for noaa to answer. And I'd like to yield the remainder of my time for the chairwoman to use. Thank you. >> um, thank you. And I don't have any further questions, but thank you for that. And I yield back to, uh, miss radewagen.
▶ 1:18:52>> yield back. >> yes. So I just yield back the rest of my time. Thank you. >> the chair now recognizes miss rivas for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair, for holding this hearing. Um, Mr. shearer, as the senior advisor to the assistant secretary for water and science at the department of interior, you helped to oversee the bureau of reclamation and its water smart program. I wanted to follow up with you on my testimony with secretary burgum on june 12th.
▶ 1:19:24During that hearing, the secretary dodged my question on why the department and the trump administration are attempting to zero out the successful water smart program. So I'll ask you now, can you please explain the decision process that goes into ending a program like water smart and specifically what goes into ending a successful federal program that has a proven track record and that invests in communities and supports drought resilient infrastructure?
▶ 1:19:55>> thank you for the question. Um, we're given a target to meet by omb when it comes to the budget process, and we have to make hard decisions. Uh, fundamentally, reclamation is a water storage and conveyance construction agency. And so when making budgetary decisions, we try to prioritize, prioritize the core missions of building and providing power to our customers.
▶ 1:20:18>> uh, it seems to me that this administration is committed to ignoring the facts and eliminating successful programs that invest in communities, and instead focused on making americans lives harder and costlier. Um, additionally, on june 6th, I wrote a letter to the department about the pause in federal funding for the water smart program.
▶ 1:20:39Reports from across the west have shown that awardees were in the final stages of completing their agreements with the bureau of reclamation to receive their funds. So these were projects that were already approved for funding. Uh, they were in the middle of, of of signing agreements. Um, and now, um, we're told that their funding has been cut.
▶ 1:21:02And, you know, southern california, which I represent, part of it has experienced droughts and water challenges and is continuing to recover from the palisades and eton wildfires. These funding delays only place communities at higher risk for wildfires, while increasing um families water bills. Um, what is the projected timeline for the release of funds for impacted projects?
▶ 1:21:30>> congresswoman, we're continuously, continuously evaluating these projects. If there are specific list of projects that you'd like to provide us that I can then follow up with you on for a timeline. I'm very happy to do that. >> well, I've sent a letter. Like I said earlier, there was a hearing where the secretary was here and I sent him a letter and I have not received a response. >> and I will track that letter down and we will get you a response. >> um, do you know when I will get a response to my june 6th letter? I mean, you're committing to it within.
▶ 1:22:01>> I'm committing to follow up on that as quickly as I can. >> okay. So a week, two weeks, like what is what does that mean? Because I've been waiting since june. >> I will I will follow up with you as quickly as I can. I can't I don't know where it's at in the process. So I can't give you a timeline. What I'm telling you is we will get you a response as quickly as we can. Understanding that you have been waiting since june. >> yeah, I've been waiting for nearly three months for a response.
▶ 1:22:29And, you know, question that I asked during this hearing directly to the secretary, um, and also sent a letter, um, and so I haven't received and I hope to receive an answer soon on why you're withholding funds of these projects that were already approved and in the process of signing agreements. Um, madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes congressman lamalfa for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you again, madam chair. Uh, thanks again for appearing with us, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:22:57Um, back to, uh, my bill, number 4970 on the orland project. Um, just, you know, for for clarification, for those that are, uh, might be curious or watching here, um. So it was, it was established, uh, that no physical infrastructure modifications are required to, to convey the water under this plan, uh, that's already existing there.
▶ 1:23:26And so really no additional cost. Um, will but will the reclamation still retain the authority to approve on each transfer under the legislation to ensure it aligns with the priorities and obligations of the cvp and the interior would have. >> thank you for the question, congressman. That's correct. The water users, water users notified the department.
▶ 1:23:54The department determines that the use of the water would go for is in alignment with administration priorities and approves. And then we would petition the department of water resources, uh, to approve a short term sale. >> so the president has a been engaged on california water in order to have, uh, more available for people, agriculture and such and have our water go farther and be more efficiently, uh, used.
▶ 1:24:22So, uh, do you think that 4970 complements the effort by the, the president administration? >> yes, congressman, I do, uh, more flexibility, the ability to move more water from, you know, where it may be in excess to where it is needed. Uh, is very much in line with the priorities of the administration.
▶ 1:24:43>> I appreciate that, um, some of our ability to keep water earlier in the, in the rainy season would be helpful as well through firo and, um, uh, taking a look at some of our old, older way of doing things with, uh, the manuals and such would be extremely helpful on, uh, keeping more water earlier in the season. So we have more available when the season does come about.
▶ 1:25:08Um, when we talk about clean energy and the situation on the columbia there, uh, how do we define clean energy? Is hydroelectric power, uh, clean energy? >> it is, congressman. >> co2 free. >> yes, congressman. >> okay. And then that also is, uh, baseload power. You can rely on 24 seven instead of at the.
▶ 1:25:32Reckoning of nature, whether it's cloudy or sunny or dark or windy or what have you. On the other types of, uh, so-called clean energy, right? >> that's correct. >> 24 over seven. So at a point where more and more, uh, power is going to be drawn from our grid here for a lot of, uh, data centers and the whole I and these other uses that are coming, uh, more obviously, uh,
▶ 1:26:05A much greater load on the grid. Uh, is it wise for us to be removing sources of power, especially the defined as, uh, baseload green power? >> no, congressman, it's not we need to do our best to increase baseload energy, uh, especially as the overall energy demand increases. We need more baseload energy, not less.
▶ 1:26:29>> yeah, it keeps occurring in my district and, uh, around the west, where, uh, in the name of salmon and salmon runs were removing a lot of baseload power, a lot of hydroelectric power. And, uh, so far, we haven't seen the return on salmon populations because of dam removal. Indeed, we've seen that's been done despite that. And in this case, here on the klamath river, we've seen an extreme amount of damage done to, uh, the areas down below the dams on a lot of wildlife.
▶ 1:27:00So, uh, we got to be careful with, uh. What we think is actually helping habitat versus. And at what cost for on on everyone else's needs, too. So I'm, uh, appreciate appreciate your looking into this.
▶ 1:27:16And, uh, you're monitoring that situation, and I just, uh, urge you to continue to find ways to save more water and get it more for human use from agricultural use, because we grow the best food, especially in california, that people need highest quality and best value. So, uh, let's keep it going that way. And thank you for being here today, I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. soto for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. Mr.
▶ 1:27:48Chair, thank you for being here. Uh, we were thrilled to have secretary burgum here a little while ago. Uh, we had a great conversation, he and I, about the importance of the everglades, uh, how critical it is for water supply, recreation, wildlife, tourism, even hurricane resilience. And we appreciate the continuation, uh, of funding under this administration, we saw 447 million under biden and 446 million under trump. So we do appreciate that continued investment in the area.
▶ 1:28:17I have the northern everglades in central florida, in my district, the kissimmee chain of lakes, um, kissimmee river, uh, lake tohopekaliga, um, these are part of the northern everglades system that extend, um, all the way from orlando, all the way down through to the river of grass. Um, I want to continue to extend to you and to secretary burgum, uh, an invitation to come down to visit, um, these amazing environmental treasures in central florida.
▶ 1:28:44Uh, the department of interior has, um, a kissimmee river study law. Uh, um, that will analyze, um, whether to make kissimmee river wild and scenic river. Uh, it's due by the end of this year. I was wondering, do you happen to have a status on any work being done? Um, by the by the department, uh, on this, uh, legally mandated study. >> thank you for the question, congressman.
▶ 1:29:14I'm not familiar with that study. Uh, that might be run out of a different hallway than the one I work in, but I'm happy to follow up with you and get you an answer. >> I know there's been some meetings on it, and we certainly want to hear from everybody on it. And it was bipartisan legislation, thankfully, that passed into law. Uh, so we'd appreciate any update. I don't want it to get to the end of this year and, uh, and not see some movement on it. Uh, and so I appreciate that and, and certainly encourage the department to keep a tight timetable.
▶ 1:29:41And we're happy to help you with any local events to seek input and, uh, and also to work with local scientists and others at the department. Um, my other question is, uh, indian river lagoon. We've seen, uh, some pollution there with sewage, septic runoff. Um, this is an east central florida. We do appreciate the funding. That's, um, come in to help with some of the seagrass. And, uh, I can't tell you how important this is to recreation, to tourism, to wildlife.
▶ 1:30:09And in central florida, it's to the district just east of mine. We see the manatee is doing better than it was with the unusual mortality events that happened a few years ago. Um, but still struggling because of this lack of seagrass. The fishermen there are, um, you know, are saying that the fishing is much more difficult than it was many years ago.
▶ 1:30:31And, and so we just saw a federal court case where, um, local federal judge found that the pollution was so bad that it constitutes an unlawful taking, uh, and, uh, mandated an action plan. So I wasn't sure. Is the department of interior working on an action plan for the indian river lagoon? Um, is there a plan to appeal the ruling? Um, can you give me any status on where we're at on that one? >> thanks for the question, congressman.
▶ 1:30:58Once again, I am thinking that this is probably under the purview of a different hallway in the department, and I'm happy to have somebody follow up with you on that. >> great. I know there's a lot of bipartisan support on the state level and on the federal level to try to make, uh, make this action plan a reality. Uh, it's, uh, one of the most beautiful parts of central florida, and it's an area that we hear a lot from our local residents. Um, and, uh, I could yield to the gentleman from california. Um.
▶ 1:31:29>> I just want to say thank you for the courtesy, but I'll yield back. >> can I yield back? >> thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. bentz for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. So thanks for being here. And I had occasion to hold a hearing up in washington state regarding the for lower columbia river dams. Um, it was an extraordinarily interesting hearing because many of the agencies who were involved in the mou refused to answer any of my questions.
▶ 1:31:58It was they had been sworn to some sort of secrecy pact regarding the mou and its link if to, uh, to the original eis that what, four years and $50 million had resulted in a. Let's figure out how to get along with the dams remaining in the river? Has your have you had time or an opportunity to look into that situation?
▶ 1:32:22It seemed to me at the time to be extraordinarily, um, out of line for people not to answer questions regarding such an important issue. >> uh, congressman, all I can tell you is that I read parts of the transcript of that field hearing, uh, in, in preparation for this hearing.
▶ 1:32:41Um, I think part of the reason that the administration, it has decided to pull out of the mou was because of the process which led to the agreement, which seemed to be, uh, again, uh, seemed to exclude certain groups of stakeholders who should have been at the table and that the process wasn't transparent.
▶ 1:33:01And so, as I have said already today, um, any future, uh, you know, regional agreements will include everybody and will be, uh, and will be public. >> I think weren't transparent or wasn't transparent is the understatement of, of the day, because they would simply refuse to answer questions regarding how in the world that mou came to be, it appeared from the outside looking in and from, um, memos that I obtained regarding regarding, uh, the
▶ 1:33:33Mou, uh, that there had been a designed friendly lawsuit device, uh, upon which the mou was then based. Um, and they had entered into this secrecy agreement under the guise of some sort of court settlement process. Are you concerned that the court was going to step in the federal court and somehow, uh, reinstate the mou?
▶ 1:33:57>> well, there's pending litigation, so I'm not necessarily going to comment on that other than to say that any process that we either undertake ourselves or directed to take by the court will be a transparent process that includes everybody at the at the table in the region that have equities at stake. >> there was uh, I have since I represent, uh, the south half of the columbia river, at least a lot of it in my district.
▶ 1:34:23Uh, I'm up in that country quite a bit, and I had occasion to speak to some of the engineers that operate some of those four dams. Uh, some I think there were corps of engineers employees. Uh, and they indicated that they had been, uh, observing, I'll use that word, uh, a reduction in the power generated by those four dams for purely optical reasons. That was to try to drive down the amount of power generated by the dams.
▶ 1:34:51So later, uh, people involved in interested in getting rid of the dams could say, well, they're just not that important. Have you heard of such a thing? >> I have not. And again, we don't operate those four dams, so. >> but of course, you work with the corps of engineers, and so you could talk to the corps and say, hey, we understand that the operations of the dams have been perverted to create a, uh, a situation, a record, if you will, that these dams are less valuable than they truly are. You could talk to them about that. >> I could.
▶ 1:35:20>> I guess I also, the reason I raised the issue is because the northwest is extraordinarily, uh, short of firm base load power. If it's been said a number of times just in the last few weeks, in my conversations with people regarding these dams, that the northwest is on the verge of a cataclysmic blackout event, in the event of a drought that affects the water flowing down the columbia river, have you had occasion to discuss with
▶ 1:35:50Folks the incredible importance of what's going on when it comes to your, uh, your agency and of course, the corps power generation on the columbia? >> uh, we have some interagency discussions, uh, ongoing right now about, uh, you know, the overall operations of the columbia river system. Uh, in general, we're not really at a place to, uh, say we've made any decisions. Those discussions are ongoing, but they are actively ongoing.
▶ 1:36:16>> well, it's I cannot overemphasize absolutely I cannot overemphasize the importance of maintaining hydro generation on the columbia. And that, of course, means the four lower snake river dams, which are held out to be 1000mw. In point of fact, the nameplate's closer to 3000. And on occasion, we've had to generate that kind of power to try to pick up the slack when there's a blackout. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate your work. I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes miss elfreth for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 1:36:46Thank you, Mr. chair, for being here. I commend you for coming to the subcommittee. And like the ranking member, I'm also incredibly bewildered and frustrated that noaa has set this hearing out yet again. So I'll just keep my questions to interior. This administration has consistently denied proven science that the climate is changing. Sea levels are rising. You're welcome to come to my district any day. And that extreme weather is an ever increasing reality. Have there been any directives, formal or informal, related to limiting interior's role in climate research?
▶ 1:37:16Uh, restricting data collection or altering scientific findings? >> I can't answer that question. I'm here to testify on a couple of bills. >> but you're a senior advisor. >> in the water and science hallway, called to testify on a couple of bills. I wasn't. I'm not prepared to answer those questions. >> that's disappointing. Okay, I'll move on to, uh, rewriting some scientific definitions and hope that you're able to answer them.
▶ 1:37:45On april 17th, interior's fish and wildlife service published a notice of proposed rulemaking to repeal their previous definition of harm under the endangered species act. And I think it's important to note for everybody in the audience and at home that this definition has been in place since 1975, and it was upheld by the supreme court in 1995. And the announcement of the proposed rulemaking interior not only proposes that the definition of definition of harm be revised, but argued that it should be removed entirely. And I'm going to quote from the announcement. Nor is any replacement definition needed.
▶ 1:38:14The esa itself defines take and further elaborating on one sub component of that definition. Harm is unnecessary in light of the comprehensive statutory definition. Mr. scheer, if you're able to answer this question, is it the position of interior that the only way an endangered or threatened species can be harmed is if they are killed? >> I'm happy to follow up with you on that question. Uh, again, that's a that's a different hallway than the one that I work in, fish and wildlife service. So we're happy to follow up on that. >> okay.
▶ 1:38:44Um, I'm going to move on to federal grants. Uh, something I, I know all of our districts rely on, but also to do the good work of interior on the ground. Local and non-governmental organizations have been crucial partners in the mission of interior. Uh, however, the administration has restricted federal funding to organizations that dare to recognize the established science of climate change. My constituents in ellicott city are annapolis, have experienced repeated catastrophic flooding in their homes and businesses due to climate change induced extreme weather and sea level rise.
▶ 1:39:13Those communities again rely on federal funding to prevent, prepare for and recover from these floods. Can you speak at all, Mr. scheer, to how much funding interior has withheld from grantees due to the presence of the word climate or grant paperwork? >> no, no, congressman, I can't I can't give you an exact number on that. No. >> would you mind following up with our offices? >> we're happy to do that. >> I appreciate that, um, I was hoping to get more out of today, but understandably cannot. Madam chair, I will yield back. >> thank you.
▶ 1:39:42The chair now recognizes Mr. gosar for five minutes of questioning. >> yeah. Madam chair, I have three exhibits I'd like to put in the record. The. This, um. 17 local, county and state legislator resolutions in support of the emergency declaration and delisting two arizona county resolutions in support of my bill, h.r. 42, 55 and 13. Official letters of support from the local elected officials and stakeholders in arizona and new mexico.
▶ 1:40:13>> without objection. So ordered. >> well, thank you, Mr. chair. I know this is not in your portfolio, so I'm not going to, but I look forward to working with the people in the do at the interior. First. 1982 mexican wolf recovery plan requires federal agencies to educate people, not to fear the wolves. But I'm going to show you why you should fear these genetically engineered apex predators.
▶ 1:40:40And now, before we show these, if anybody's squeamish, you might want to turn away. So here's the first one. Here's a young heifer who's been, uh, attacked under the front front court here. And you can see they eviscerate these animals. Okay. Next one.
▶ 1:41:06It's this is the back end of a heifer, um, where they got the reproductive organs and, uh, just pull out the disembowel. Okay, now, let me show you that it is not just limited to calves and cows. Here's two dogs that were family pets. The top one you can see they attack viciously. Good that way. But the bottom one was ripped.
▶ 1:41:35She was on a chain. Jackie was ripped off of her chain and they tore off her back. She did not make it. Now this is what we live all the time with. Now imagine a small child walking in the woods. Just imagine that they're there. They're going to be looked at as prey. Apex predators. Don't fear anybody. These are apex predators.
▶ 1:42:03I just got back from alaska, where we watched grizzly bears and wolves. They're apex predators. They're not scared of anybody. And we don't need we don't need these experimental populations. We don't. And they're not really true mexican wolves. They've been engineered. So from that standpoint, we're trying to get rid of this, this, this problem in north of the mexican border. And that's in our country.
▶ 1:42:29I'm just I'm just flabbergasted that we would tolerate this. When wolves find out they're going to take you, they'll take you. I'll give you an example. I'm from western wyoming. They decided to reintroduce wolves into the upper green river area. Well, one of the guys. I actually built a home log home for actually was photographing these upper green river wolves.
▶ 1:43:00But they did it anyway. They came in and they stuck another herd, another wolf pack in there. At the same time we had, we were giving moose to everybody from utah to ontario all the way across the, the world. You know what happened? They had centuries, century wolves placed on almost all the on all the moose. We lost 60%. Wyoming's lost 60% of the moose herd because of these wolves. It's not a matter of if.
▶ 1:43:28It's that they pay you, you're going down. They'll wait you out. Now some people say, well, you know, grizzly won't attack. Well, hey, you may not. And a boat horn can actually help you. Believe it or not, a boat horn a cow. But for wolves, that didn't work at all. They they they go by the many. If you ever seen this stuff go in the real life, it's atrocious.
▶ 1:43:57So we need to look at all of our people. And last but not least is this thing called federalism. I heard the ranking member talk about federalism. Have you talked to the tribes? Have you talked to the local communities? Well, where was that? Where is these communities in that discussion for federalism? We just decided we're going to do this. Heck no. They need justification.
▶ 1:44:27I think this is plenty of justification to get rid of this experimental aspect. And, madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes miss stanbury for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. And I understand that we are joined by a proud new mexican today. And so I want to welcome Mr. tom patterson, uh, for his testimony here today.
▶ 1:44:49Uh, as the congresswoman for new mexico's first congressional district and a vast swath of public lands, uh, the issues around the protection of our public lands, our endangered species, and the uses of those lands, both for ranching and grazing and traditional uses are near and dear to my heart and very important to our communities.
▶ 1:45:12As we all know, the endangered species act has provided decades of protection for species that were threatened and endangered and faced irrevocable extinction from the face of this planet. The passage of this bill was as much a scientific imperative as it was an ecological imperative to ensure that our ecosystems could function in the natural world, could continue to provide the services that it has for generations.
▶ 1:45:38This law protects vulnerable populations, as we know, and these species and their recoveries are the promise and hope and opportunity of the esa. Now, we know that mexican gray wolves are lobos, as we call them in new mexico, are predators. And we know that they are a species that can cause challenges for our ranchers and farmers.
▶ 1:45:59And so it is for that reason that I am proudly a co-sponsor of the wolf act, which was introduced by representative stanton of arizona and representative vasquez of new mexico to help make ranchers whole when there is depredation on livestock. As a result of the reintroduction of these species.
▶ 1:46:20But I want to be clear, the menace that we just heard about from my colleague across the aisle, um, numbers only a total of about 286 total wild mexican gray wolves in arizona. In new mexico, not thousands, not millions, 286 total animals have been reintroduced.
▶ 1:46:48Mexican gray wolves were considered extinct, extirpated in the wild by the mid 1970s, and over the last 50 years we have had a successful reintroduction. They have continued to play a growing keystone role in our ecosystems and the restoration of those ecosystems, and hopefully in the coming decades, we'll continue to see their populations increase.
▶ 1:47:13But the science is very clear they are nowhere near recovered, even as they are still challenging predators in the context of ranching and farming. And so I want to say here today to my colleagues, friends and constituents who are in the ranching business, I stand in solidarity and support of your livelihoods and will do everything that we can to help protect your livelihoods.
▶ 1:47:38But we also need to make sure that we restore ecosystems and protect our species. And so, madam chairwoman, I humbly but, um, emphatically oppose this bill. Secondly, um, I want to talk about h.r.
▶ 1:47:552073, which is the defending our dams act as a water resources manager who spent my entire life working on water resources and the restoration of ecological systems, um, associated with our rivers and streams. We understand the importance of making sure that the historic and vast rivers of the west are restored, and not only for their ecological importance, but their cultural importance.
▶ 1:48:23And it's important to understand that there has been decades of litigation on the lower snake river to ensure that the historic damming of those rivers that impacted the salmon fisheries that are subject to numerous treaties of our tribes and the federal trust responsibility are rectified.
▶ 1:48:43So at the end of the day, this is not just about the restoration of that vast watershed and the river and ecosystem that it sustains, but it is also compliance with both federal law and tribal trust and treaty responsibilities. And so, again, I humbly but emphatically oppose that bill.
▶ 1:49:05So I thank you for the opportunity to share my position on these bills, and I ask my colleagues to join me in voting. No, thank you. >> the chair now recognizes representative gray for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:49:24While I don't represent the region that representative lamalfa orland project water management directly impacts this legislation highlights an important issue involving california water efficient water transfers like this allow reclamation and local central valley water project contractors to ensure more reliable water deliveries for our farmers.
▶ 1:49:50As you may know, existing law requires the state of california to request approval from the secretary of interior for water transfer for temporary drought assistance. Uh, Mr. scher, how would surplus water transfers to the central valley? Water project? Uh, impact reclamation's ability to allocate water, uh, to contractors? >> thank you for the question, congressman. Good to see you again.
▶ 1:50:20Um, you know, again, it just puts more flexibility into the system. Uh, in this in this particular instance, in the in the, in the for the project, it's a contained watershed that routinely has excess water. Um, when in those years where there is excess water that they can then create temporary contracts to sell it to the cvp.
▶ 1:50:39You have contractors south of orland who can either put it to use that year if they need it, or potentially store it in another site for a year when they may need it. So it just provides more flexibility overall in the system. >> thank you for that. You know, um, for years the state, frankly, has used its role in the central valley water project to implement rigid regulations on allocations and the use of water.
▶ 1:51:05And I certainly am encouraged to see my colleagues, uh, work on cutting bureaucratic red tape to increase water supply. And I look forward, madam chair, to working with them, uh, to increase water supply in our region. And with that, I yield back the remainder of my time. >> I sure look forward to working with you to increase the water supply for the wonderful citizens of california, as well.
▶ 1:51:27I think the failed leadership in california has really done them a terrible disservice over the last 40 years, and I think we could make some real progress. >> madam chair, it's time. Are we on right now with with that little speech there was that. >> that that that was a matter of personal privilege. Would you like would you like 10s to respond? If you just don't like 10s. >> to the ivory tower of wyoming, if if you are qualified to render the editorials. >> because it's our water that you want to take.
▶ 1:51:55So in fact, I am qualified. >> in california. >> we're green river. Yeah, it's the green river. Colorado river. >> that's that's that's pretty fantastical. >> so there you would you would you like another 10s to respond, Mr. hoffman? Because you're sure welcome to have it. >> I think we've done too much, actually. >> okay. Thank you. The chair now recognizes miss randolph for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. And thank you, Mr. chair, for joining us today.
▶ 1:52:25Um, with your testimony, um, you know, I, um, I'm grateful that we've had some discussion today about, um, the energy needs in the pacific northwest and washington state. And, um, I look forward to, um. Hearing more, uh, from the nez perce perspective on, uh, house bill 2073.
▶ 1:52:52But I, I did want to follow up on the conversation around energy costs and reliability for folks, uh, in washington and oregon. And, you know, we've seen recently some significant cuts to green energy projects and, um, energy subsidies for low income families, in addition to some further proposed cuts.
▶ 1:53:20And this may be in somebody else's hallway, but I wanted to give you the chance to answer whether you think that, um, the cuts to the low income, um, energy program will impact costs for working families in the pacific northwest and across the country. >> I'm not familiar with the cuts that you're referring to, ma'am. >> okay.
▶ 1:53:49Um, I think the answer is yes. I think we'll see an increased cost for, um, low income and working families due to those cuts. Um, I wonder if, um, you know, in the energy and water bill that will be voting on tomorrow, we see some slashes to the department of energy's energy efficiency and renewable energy programs, 1.6 billion, or 47%, eliminating resources that provide for clean, affordable and secure
▶ 1:54:20Energy. Um, ensuring american leadership in the transition to the clean energy economy. Do you think that might increase costs for low income and working families and for american families across the country? >> congresswoman, I can't speculate what budget cuts to another department are going to do. >> yeah, understood. I think we'll probably see an increase in costs there.
▶ 1:54:43Um, they're also, uh, proposed revocation of $5.1 billion of the bipartisan infrastructure law resources from the department of energy's programs and support hydrogen, direct air capture, carbon dioxide.
▶ 1:54:56I know you won't be able to speculate on another, um, agency's cuts, but I think as we talk about the impact and the necessity for energy in the understanding of the department of interior, we should also be looking holistically at what um, agencies across the administration are doing.
▶ 1:55:15And what I'm seeing is significant barriers to green energy science and significant cost drivers for middle class and hardworking families in the district.
▶ 1:55:29Um, in the um, interior appropriations bill, um, we there are proposed cuts to funding to states for drinking and wastewater infrastructure by 1.7 billion, shifting more of the burden onto families. Um, might that drive up some costs for, uh, folks across the country?
▶ 1:56:02>> I think, again, you're referring to another agency's budget and the epa, and I am not able to comment on that. >> okay. Well, thank you for joining us. Um, today. And I, um, appreciate your perspective. Uh, I just I'm not advocating right now for any dam breaching. I'm not advocating for, um, you know, us to make one decision or the other.
▶ 1:56:30But as we're exploring, um, a policy that will ban science on the issue, I think we should be really clear eyed about what other policies might do to energy costs. In addition to the science we're not going to do around, um, the impacts of the dam running or not running.
▶ 1:56:59Uh, I think there's a lot of, um, deference given to what ratepayers will feel. Um, if we, um, divert this baseload power. And I'm not disputing that, you know, representing many. Um. Small energy companies and public utility districts and the pacific northwest.
▶ 1:57:25I'm very, very thoughtful about those impacts on my community, but I think there are significant additional impacts that should be part of this discussion to the increase costs on working families that, um, we are seeing. So thank you, madam chair. >> thank you. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witness, and we will ask you to respond to those in writing.
▶ 1:57:55In fact, I anticipate that you may very well receive some follow up in light of some of the questioning from the witnesses asking for additional information. And while the clerk is resetting the table, I will go ahead and introduce the witnesses for our third panel. Mr. tom patterson, president elect of the new mexico cattle growers association from luna, new mexico.
▶ 1:58:20The honorable shannon wheeler, the chairman of the nez perce tribal executive committee from lapwai, idaho. Mr. bill vanderwal, the general manager of the tehama colusa canal authority from willows, california. And Mr. clark mather, the executive director of northwest river partners from vancouver, washington. Under committee rules, you must limit your oral statements to five minutes, but your entire statements will appear in the hearing record.
▶ 1:58:51To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone and we use timing lights. When you begin. The light will turn green. When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of the five minutes, the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I will also allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning. I now recognize Mr. patterson for five minutes.
▶ 1:59:17>> chairwoman hageman, ranking member hoyle, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to offer testimony on h.r. 4255, the enhancing safety for animals act of 2025. My name is tom patterson. I grew up along the arizona and new mexico state line.
▶ 1:59:41My family and I have a cow calf operation in the heart of the landscape, most affected now by mexican wolf populations. I serve as president elect of the new mexico cattle growers association. I'm a member of the arizona cattle growers association, the national cattlemen's beef association, and the national public lands council. I speak on behalf of each of these associations today.
▶ 2:00:08For the last 25 years, my neighbors and I have seen the worst kind of impacts from a federal policy here the endangered species act that treats local people as acceptable sacrifices for a national initiative to recover an apex predator.
▶ 2:00:27For two and a half decades, we have been unfortunate and unacceptable casualties in this esa story to recover mexican wolves, taxpayers have shared our misery. Mexican wolf recovery has cost taxpayers nearly $260,000 for each wolf. Now on the ground, that's more than a quarter of $1 million. Each recovery has cost taxpayers more than $15 million.
▶ 2:00:56Over the past three years alone, and this outlay is despite the fact that the wolf population is robust, big enough and stable enough that mexican wolves should no longer be protected under the esa, according to fish and wildlife service. The number of wolves now on the ground meets the threshold number identified in the esa recovery plan.
▶ 2:01:23The wolves on the ground have sufficient genetic diversity, which captive breeding programs can routinely supplement as needed. The genetic identity of the species is secure. Those facts alone justify delisting this apex predator. The esa recovery plan in place stands in the way of delisting regardless, however, of the recovery status on wolves in the united states.
▶ 2:01:54That's because it ties delisting the wolves in the us to recovery of the species in mexico. This is clearly inappropriate. The us can guarantee no kind of regulatory certainty. On the other side of the border, the link virtually guarantees that no matter how many wolves we have in the united states, we will always be held captive, captive forever. To the success of the mexican recovery efforts.
▶ 2:02:23It goes without saying that there are vocal opponents to delisting the mexican wolf. We've heard their arguments. We've received their death threats. We've experienced their vandalism. But their arguments, their threats and their vandalism can't escape from the truth. And the truth is that mexican wolves are habituated.
▶ 2:02:49They are a threat to people, pets, livestock and wildlife. Our children have been stalked. Our pets have been snatched and killed off our front porches. Wildlife have been displaced and depleted.
▶ 2:03:05The situation is so severe that 15 counties in our two states have declared emergencies or passed resolutions in support over the past few months to expose and ask for help with the threat from wolves. The livestock industry has endured the pain acutely. The federal government is not paying these damages.
▶ 2:03:28Our poor rural counties aren't reimbursed for their public for their public safety work on wolves, some of which total more than 100,000 a year. Your congressional intervention is the best and only way to deal with the immediate issues on in front of us.
▶ 2:03:45Our situation makes clear that the endangered species act did not contemplate the threats to human life and livelihoods that we that recovery of an apex predator poses. Brealey green, a 12 year old from quemado, new mexico, who was stalked by a mexican wolf, made the severity of the situation. Before you all too clear, she asked.
▶ 2:04:09When did mexican wolves become more important than I am? The species is recovered, madam chairwoman, and members of the subcommittee. We ask for your support of this bill. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. wheeler for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. Uh, and members of the committee.
▶ 2:04:43My name is shannon wheeler. I serve as the chairman for the nez perce tribe. Uh, it's attached to me, and I come to you today, uh, with a good heart. Uh, for decades, nez perce have been working to recover wild runs of threatened and endangered salmon and steelhead in the snake river basin on which our traditional traditional diets, economy and culture are centered. As the salmon people, we have a covenant to meet the needs of the salmon and are obligated to speak the words that they cannot speak themselves.
▶ 2:05:11The main stem of the snake river and the sections that contain the four federal dams referred to in h.r. 2073 as the umbilical cord linking the ocean, 49,000mi of the largest, most intact and pristine salmon and steelhead habitat, remaining in the lower 48 states.
▶ 2:05:31This salmon country is larger than the states of new jersey, vermont, new hampshire, massachusetts, connecticut, and rhode island combined, and every single salmon and steelhead born in this country as part of their life cycle must pass through these four dams and reservoirs on their outmigration. Uh, many runs of salmon that our people depended on have been extirpated or at risk of extirpation.
▶ 2:05:58Uh, we cannot fish the wenaha, the minam, the middle fork of the salmon. Asotin creek and tucannon river, uh, which are two of the rivers that contain the only populations of the snake river spring chinook. Uh, the nez perce signed a treaty in 1855 with the united states of america. Guarantee, guarantee and treaty rights and fishing and hunting and gathering at all usual and accustomed places in perpetuity.
▶ 2:06:26And this bargain we agreed to, uh, we work with the united states of america to honor our side of this relationship and the adverse relationship that the nez perce have with the united states of america. Minted as a coin is minted on one side, the united states of america. On the other side, the nez perce tribe mentioned together for mutual benefit under mutual agreement, so that one side does not burden the other side. And when we speak of the dams and the salmon populations, we speak of populations that have declined or been decimated.
▶ 2:06:55And when we see this, it is our obligation to the salmon and to our people and to the people of this country to tell the united states of america that we are being burdened, and that these fish that are supposed to be in the water are not currently in the water. And so the columbia river tribes and the nez perce in particular, are extremely active in restoring and rebuilding uh, runs. Our salmon restoration programs are among the largest natural resource programs of any of the tribes in the united states.
▶ 2:07:23Nez perce have brought back snake river chinook from the brink of extinction, and returned extirpated coho salmon to the basin. It's not for the lack of trying that we cannot have salmon and dams, but the primary man caused source of mortality facing snake river basin fish are the dams and reservoirs that the fish must pass, uh, through their way to the ocean. And we need to do something about that for the fish to survive.
▶ 2:07:49Unfortunately, this bill takes a contrary approach that would tie the hands of the federal agencies and force them to ignore the realities on the ground by prohibiting any use to study alternatives and solutions to the largest source of salmon mortality, and preventing adaptive and responsive dam operations that would be more beneficial to fish.
▶ 2:08:08In doing so, the bill would set the united states on an unambiguous course to destroy wild snake river salmon runs, which would abrogate our treaty rights to fish in all of our usual and accustomed fishing areas and those of the other columbia basin treaty tribes. We are here to emphasize that the treaty partners, both the tribes and the united states, should should benefit from the bargain negotiated.
▶ 2:08:33Uh, this bill would attempt to cement and burden the four lower snake river dams, our burden of the four lower snake river dams on the backs of the salmon and tribes. In contrast, we will not be working. Uh, we will be working on all of the actions the salmon need, including fully funding the work that salmon need, uh, funding that has not kept up with the inflation.
▶ 2:08:56Uh, madam chair, and if I may, uh, we have used these rivers and their waters since time immemorial, and we will no longer sit idly by and taken for granted for over 16,500 years dated, our people have been in the area. Uh, we are people who fish. We need the we need to be able to feed our people and to have fishing, have a fishing economy going forward. We want those in washington, D.C.
▶ 2:09:24The pacific northwest and bonneville power administration, electric utilities and irrigators to understand that we will be speaking the truth for salmon, ensuring the united states honors the promises it made in our treaty, and working on true solutions that work for the salmon. Thank you, madam chair. >> thank you, Mr. wheeler. The chair now recognizes Mr. mather. Excuse me, Mr. vanderwaal, for five minutes.
▶ 2:09:54>> chair hageman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on h.r. 4970, the orland project water management act. My name is bill vanderwal, and I serve as the general manager of the tehama calusa canal authority, or tca.
▶ 2:10:13The tca is a joint powers authority that delivers water to 17 agencies across four counties in the sacramento valley, supporting more than 156,000 acres of farmland and generating in excess of $1 billion annually in economic benefit. Our facilities not only sustain agriculture but also provide important post-harvest water supplies for groundwater recharge and wildlife habitat. Reliable water deliveries are the foundation of our rural economy.
▶ 2:10:44The bureau of reclamation's orland unit, constructed in the early 1900s, provides irrigation water for 21,000 acres in glenn county from east park and stony gorge reservoirs. It was developed decades before the central valley project and is not integrated with the cvp. Operations. Because of the separation, the orland unit is prohibited from transferring water to cvp contractors like the tca, except in drought emergencies declared by the governor.
▶ 2:11:13This limitation persists even though the orland unit often has surplus available surplus water available in most years. The orland unit sits within the stoney creek watershed is hydrologically, independent of the cvp system, and its supplies come solely from local precipitation, making transfers to the cvp a new supplemental resource, not a reallocation of cvp water surplus.
▶ 2:11:39Orland water typically becomes available in the fall and winter when reservoirs quickly fill. At that time, soils are saturated, stormwater runoff is already high in excess, flow is simply moved downstream with little benefit to irrigation or recharge.
▶ 2:11:55In other words, water is released when it has the least value, rather than being available during dry months when it could help farmers, groundwater basins, communities, and groundwater dependent ecosystems. H.r. 4970 would authorize the orland unit to transfer water to the cvp, including the tca contractors, in all water year types. This legislation would turn a currently stranded resource into a regional benefit.
▶ 2:12:25California water districts are under mandate to reduce groundwater reliance under the sustainable groundwater management act, aka sgma. Transfers from the orland unit would provide supplemental surface water to newly annexed lands within the tca that currently depend solely on groundwater. It will create opportunities for intentional recharge in normal and wet years. It will improve regional water supply reliability by distributing resources more efficiently across districts.
▶ 2:12:56It will reduce localized overdraft and protect drinking water wells in vulnerable communities communities. It will lower energy use by reducing groundwater pumping, and it will provide environmental benefits through the healthier aquifers and streamflows. Collectively, these outcomes strengthen agricultural resilience, support environmental stewardship, and enhance long term water sustainability. In the sacramento valley.
▶ 2:13:23Facilitating these transfers is a cost effective, environmentally responsible way to maximize the value of existing federal infrastructure by aligning surplus water with actual demand. H.r. 4970 supports compliance with state and federal sustainability mandates, reduces pressure on stressed groundwater basins, and safeguards the rural economy. This legislation offers a practical and replicable model for sustainable resource management across the west.
▶ 2:13:53On behalf of the tca and our member agencies, I'd like to thank congressman lamalfa for introducing this bill and urge the committee to support h.r. 4970. Thank you for this opportunity to testify, and I look forward to answering any questions you may have. >> thank you, Mr. vanderwall. I will now turn to Mr. mather for five minutes. >> chair. Hagerman, ranking member, hoyle and committee members.
▶ 2:14:18>> the lower snake river dams provide millions of americans with reliable, clean hydropower, keep energy costs low, provide valuable irrigation and cargo movement, support municipal water and wastewater treatment facilities, and have contributed to the establishment of an important recreation economy. My name is clark mather and I'm the executive director of northwest river partners, and for those reasons, we strongly support the defending our dams act. H.r.
▶ 2:14:432073, northwest river partners represents the millions of people in the northwest who overwhelmingly support our hydropower system. And I want to thank the prime sponsor, congressman newhouse, for his long standing, unwavering support of our critical hydropower system. Of course, I want to thank representative bentz and fulcher for their leadership and co-sponsorship of this legislation. The federal snake river dams are essential. Let's start with energy. Many states have experienced rolling blackouts due to energy shortages during extreme weather.
▶ 2:15:12And while the pacific northwest has largely avoided service interruptions due mostly to the federal hydropower systems, we have experienced several near misses, and several public studies indicate a surge in load growth in the future. It's been talked about here at the committee with not enough energy to meet the meet the need. In 2025, the pacific northwest utilities conference committee projected that electric usage in the pacific northwest could grow them more than 30% during the next ten years.
▶ 2:15:39These studies assume that the columbia and snake river dams remain operational. Senator murray and then governor inslee of washington issued a report in 2022 that reached a similar conclusion, stating, quote, breach is not a feasible option in the near term. Our dams provide affordable, reliable energy that play an essential role in keeping people alive, and the lower snake river dams support billions of dollars of high value, high value agricultural products. Our food supply and support communities along the river.
▶ 2:16:08The snake river provides tens of thousands of acres of irrigation for farmers to grow a broad spectrum of crops. The columbia snake river system is the number one wheat export gateway in the united states, and the number two national gateway for soy and corn exports, and in clarkston, washington, the water table produced is necessary for the city to meet wastewater state regulations. Losing these dams would jeopardize our regional agricultural sector, weaken american food security, and jeopardize local essential services.
▶ 2:16:37And importantly, the snake river dams are supporting stronger fish returns, and we are proud to share that story with this committee and all americans. According to publicly available data compiled by the university of washington school of aquatic and fishery sciences, 21st century average salmon and steelhead returns are higher at each of the four lower snake river dams when compared to each of their respective first years of operation.
▶ 2:17:01I will focus on lower granite dam, the most upstream of the four federal dams on the lower snake river. Fish that returned to lower granite dam are passing their eighth dam. After leaving the ocean, they have navigated a river filled with predators, including growing bird populations and sea lions. They have survived multiple years in the ocean, climate change induced warming, and they have survived thousands of human beings who have tried to catch them and harvest them in the sea and in the river at lower granite dam.
▶ 2:17:28It's been more than four decades since fish returns were less than 1975, the first year of operation, and this century, average salmon returns are nearly ten times higher than in 1999. This progress is built on billions of dollars of ongoing electric, ratepayer and federal investment to support state of the art fish passage technologies and at these facilities, hatchery upgrades and habitat improvements.
▶ 2:17:51And most of these dollars are spent in the region to support fish in coordination and direct coordination with native american tribes and states. And yet, the countervailing narrative has led to imbalanced policy choices that disproportionately blame our vital hydropower system for reductions of salmon and steelhead populations, a process led by the biden administration excluded sovereign states and several other stakeholders from meaningful engagement on the future of the system.
▶ 2:18:16In june, the president announced the withdrawal from this lopsided and flawed agreement. We welcome the current administration's acknowledgment that this politicized agreement between the former administration and only a fraction of impacted sovereign entities and other stakeholders inappropriately devalued our multipurpose hydropower system. We at northwest river partners believe now is the time to come together to identify sustainable, effective solutions that protect salmon and maintain our invaluable hydropower system in the pacific northwest.
▶ 2:18:45This includes a vital initiative led by several sovereign tribes and a $200 million ratepayer investment, which northwest river partners unanimously supports to study reintroducing salmon into truly blocked areas above chief joseph and grand coulee dams.
▶ 2:19:04On behalf of the millions of people we represent, northwest river partners urges the committee to pass this legislation so we can focus on continuing progress to recover salmon while maintaining our regional economy. Thank you. Chair hagerman, ranking member on the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today. I'm happy to take any questions. >> thank you, Mr. patterson. Chairman wheeler, Mr. vanderwall and Mr. mather, uh, I want to thank each of you for your testimony. And I will now recognize members for five minutes each of questioning. I'm going to begin with me.
▶ 2:19:33Uh, Mr. patterson, in wyoming, we have also dealt with the fish and wildlife service and a wolf introduction program that started in the mid 1990s. I feel your pain when you talk about the loss to livestock and other wildlife on every on average, every adult wolf consumes two kills and consumes two adult animals every single month.
▶ 2:19:56We found in wyoming, after having had years of experience with the canadian gray wolf, that for every confirmed kill, there are 7 to 8 livestock losses. So when people talk about being willing to compensate ranchers for their losses, oftentimes they will only talk in terms of confirmed kills, and they're the ones that do the confirmation. So this does not take into consideration the disruption to your breeding program.
▶ 2:20:23It doesn't take into consideration the disruption and the impact associated with what it does to keeping your cows stirred up. It doesn't take into consideration the loss in weight, uh, from with your cattle. And when you're attempting to sell your livestock. So I definitely understand the challenges that you have had in trying to run your operations, uh, when dealing with the apex predator.
▶ 2:20:47But it is also clear that the trump administration is using tools at its disposal that the biden administration simply didn't want to use to help you manage your conflicts with the mexican wolves. How have things changed since january, and what barriers still remain since the esa continues to prevent more robust management? Is there listening? >> the trump administration is listening. >> excuse me. The trump administration is listening.
▶ 2:21:18They're listening to rural arizona and rural new mexico. Describe the issues. Yes, there are huge issues with our livestock, but we've had a livestock crisis with mexican wolves for a long time. What's different today and what folks don't seem to realize is we now have a public safety disaster as well. These wolves are stalking our kids. They're showing up ten feet from the front door of our elderly people.
▶ 2:21:47They're snatching our dogs off our front porches. They're killing barrel horses. We have a public safety disaster. That has to be addressed. >> I also want to confirm if I heard your testimony correctly, that the number of gray wolves or, excuse me, of the mexican wolves, exceed recovery goals as set by the fish and wildlife service. Is that correct?
▶ 2:22:13>> the service estimates that the minimum number of wolves on the landscape is 286. Privately, they will also tell us that they assume that that number is underestimated by at least at least 10%. If you do the math right now, we're at as of december 31st. This past year, we were at 318 wolves. The threshold is 320 wolves. We're there. >> okay. All right. Um, Mr.
▶ 2:22:42Vanderwall, in your testimony, you note that the that agriculture in the tehama colusa canal authority service area generates over $1 billion annually. How would access to orland unit surplus water help safeguard the economic engine during droughts? >> thank you for the question. Um, chair. Um, this, uh, this water that we would be able to access, um, in many years, we have droughts and would have to fallow, uh, fields.
▶ 2:23:10So crops are not being planted, crops are not being grown. So this, uh, this amount of water that the orland unit could potentially transfer would, would be able to, uh, help the local economy by, um, growing crops in those fields that otherwise are fallowed.
▶ 2:23:27Um, it also more importantly, I think, is, is focusing on the opportunity to use that, um, water in crops instead of pumping groundwater or doing recharge projects in wet, wetter or normal type years to help, you know, keep our aquifer healthy. Healthy. Excuse me. >> um, and, Mr.
▶ 2:23:50Mather, turning to you in your testimony, you covered the important role that the lower snake river dams play in the pacific northwest, not only for enhancing grid reliability and energy security, but also supporting critical industries like shipping, tourism and agriculture. Can you share how important this infrastructure is to the pacific northwest? >> uh, chair hagerman, we believe they're not only essential to the pacific northwest, we believe they're essential to the country as a whole.
▶ 2:24:19As I mentioned in my testimony, the columbia snake river navigation system covers 465 river miles, where the number one wheat export gateway in the united states. This system supports billions of dollars of economic activity, american food security, and all sorts of essential jobs on the columbia river. It also provides some of the most affordable electricity in america that provides reliable service to millions of people in the northwest.
▶ 2:24:44And on the times that we have extra energy, we're able to sell that into the market for other parts of the united states to benefit from. There's tens of thousands of acres of irrigated agriculture. There's a growing cruise boat business and recreation in the region. We think these are really essential services, not just to the northwest, but to the us as a whole. >> well, thank you, and I agree with you. Uh, I now am going to call on other members to ask questions of the panel, and I first will call on Mr.
▶ 2:25:12Huffman for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chairman. Uh, chairman wheeler, I would like to talk with you about, uh, columbia river salmon runs. I represent several tribes, uh, back in the north coast of california. Uh, similar in some ways to the nez perce. Salmon and steelhead are especially important to them. And so I understand the importance of your being here today. I appreciate the passion.
▶ 2:25:37Uh, in your testimony, uh, it should come as no surprise to anyone that salmon and steelhead in the columbia river basin are in crisis, because the reality is that 13 species of salmon and steelhead in the basin are listed as threatened or endangered under the endangered species act. That sort of speaks volumes to the state of the salmon and steelhead run. These fish are way below historic population levels.
▶ 2:26:02For example, snake river spring and summer chinook are down 99.3% compared to historic numbers, according to noaa. So, chair wheeler, I want to ask if you could give us some perspective on how columbia river salmon and steelhead are really doing. You heard the chair say that, you know, they're up from some data point in the 1930s. And I was just fiddling on my phone. And then I know that the 1930s were a huge salmon crash.
▶ 2:26:31So that's probably not the metric that we want to use for the state of salmon in the columbia river basin. How do you think we're doing? >> well, I think, uh, overall, thank you for the question to, uh, and if I may, madam chair, uh, respond to the question, the, uh, when we talk about the columbia river, uh, and the system that, uh, um, and the sustenance that it provides, the bill itself today is talking about the the lower
▶ 2:27:01Snake river area and the lower snake river species. We're talking about esa listed species that are in this in the system. Now, when we combine everything and we're saying mid-columbia see, upriver brights, those are different species that than the esa listed species that we're talking about. So when we see and hear those numbers, we know that they're not part of the discussion. When we're talking about the lower snake river and the tributaries that are a part of the snake river system.
▶ 2:27:28And so historically, 16 to 20 million fish entering the columbia river, uh, 2 million coming into the, uh, lower snake river area. Uh, yeah. Now, there's rivers that I'd mentioned that we can't even fish. And if we overtake on any of the esa listed species, we're our fishery shuts down. If there are no fish in the water, then it affects us in many different ways.
▶ 2:27:55Uh, uh, our culture, our the spirituality of who we are and, uh, the health of our people. >> yeah. Tell us a little more about what it means for your people when you can't fish, because I've experienced it with the yurok and the creek tribe in my district. Um, I've seen what it does to the elders, to their ceremonies, to their economic interests and their subsistence. >> well, thank you, madam chair.
▶ 2:28:21If I may again continue, uh, you know, from the cultural aspect, uh, you know, our language, our songs, our prayers, uh, many of them come from these areas. They're spiritual places. We're in the water, we're in the gravel. We're. We're in the places where there's wild tobacco. We're on hillsides. Uh, these are the places where, uh, you're teaching your children, and and they're experiencing this type of life, this way of life that was promised in our treaty. What was reserved in our treaty.
▶ 2:28:48This was something that we called tim burchett, or the unwritten laws of the land which we go by. And it's only in these places that we're able to do those things. And with the lack of fish being in those waters, weren't able to experience those, uh, uh, relate that relationship with the land. We're not able to interact the way that we should be and could be.
▶ 2:29:09Uh, and so, yeah, it, it, uh, and that's this is not even talking on the, in the health sector, the health sector of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, autoimmune diseases that was more prevalent during covid and spelled out. And our lifespan has been, uh, average lifespan, 62 years old women, two generations less than all the rest of american women.
▶ 2:29:33And these are the impacts that are real, that we experience and that we feel on the ground and within our nation. >> thank you. And I know you've been on a litigation treadmill for a long time. I want to just ask you my last question. What it's been like to try to use the endangered species act, which is simply meant to stop things from going extinct. Uh, and so we're constantly in triage mode when we can't talk about recovering to abundance.
▶ 2:30:02Um, talk about, you know, what it means to see these cycles of biological opinions that, you know, are not going to bring fisheries back to the level we all want to see. And the opportunity that that we would have, uh, for the entire region if we were able to have abundant runs.
▶ 2:30:19>> well, of course, the biological opinions and the, uh, are flawed eis and, ah, the flawed biological opinions and the record of decisions that were made, uh, you know, the 2021 had, uh, 19 pages of the whole document that had impacts to all tribal nations, all tribal nations on the columbia basin that live in the columbia basin. 19 pages. We submitted thousands of comments, uh, and where we heard were those heard, I don't believe those were heard.
▶ 2:30:48And, uh, that was something then when we stayed out of court through that time to let the science work and the biological opinion was pushed up one year. And so when, when we think about coming to the table, when we think about our role as the nez perce people, as a sovereign nation, being able to work with the united states of america, our other sovereign, our partner, then we expect that they will hear the side of the nez perce and the understanding that we can we can look and see our partner.
▶ 2:31:20And it was mentioned, I heard mentioned the, uh, amount of grain that was shipped out, the amount of product that is shipped out. We feel that we are a big part of that. By signing the treaty of 1855 and understanding commerce in the united states of america at the time. >> wheeler, could could you please wrap up? >> yes, I will, uh, madam chair, thank you.
▶ 2:31:40I just wanted to say that by signing the treaty of 1855, the us helped this republic become what it is today by developing commerce into the the pacific ocean, into the asian pacific rim. Uh, is something great that we feel very good about ourselves and our treaty and the obligation that we have to this country and that this country should have to us. >> thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh, the chair now recognizes Mr. lamalfa for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 2:32:08Uh, Mr. vanderwall, appreciate again your your travel here along with Mr. krisner from, uh. Uh, orland unit itself. Um, tca, can you, uh, harken back a little bit? Was it 2022 when the allocations from, uh, the central valley project were 18%? >> so, um, sir, the, uh, service contractors, junior water contractors, zero allocation.
▶ 2:32:35That was the second year in a row of zero allocations. And the contractors who have senior rights volunteered to reduce their allocation to 18% from the volunteered. >> how's how's the how's that volunteer? Yeah. When the contract calls for something different, didn't it. >> correct there? Uh, contractually, they're, uh, the bureau is obligated to provide them a minimum of 75%. >> 75, and it got down to 18. >> correct? >> right.
▶ 2:33:02And I guess if there's no water behind the dam, right? That's correct, sir. And so zero for one group and 18% for another. I can't imagine, um, how you could run anything on, on one hand on, on 0% of the resources you need or 18%. Imagine if they cut electricity to these rooms here by 100% or 82% or, uh, or, you know, on and on and on. Right.
▶ 2:33:26So, so when we talk about this bill, 4970, um, indeed it is. It would be a one helpful piece to a bigger puzzle for further drought years. We want to expound on that. And then just. >> yes, sir. >> you know, a little bit a little bit of history on that drought. >> certainly. Um, you know, just to fill out a little bit more of the background there. Yeah.
▶ 2:33:53In 2022, we were at the tc, uh, tca able to survive because those settlement contractors that got 18%, that wasn't enough water to even deliver to some of their farmers. So they delivered no water to their farmers, who typically rice farmers fallow their ground, which enabled us to buy their water and transfer it in, um, very high prices. Um.
▶ 2:34:21The orland unit that year, I believe they may have had 5000 acre feet of surplus water, uh, that in the winter time of 2023 was released because they needed to make room for flood control purposes. So that's 5000 acre feet of water that could have been transferred, um, and used in the, in the tca districts. >> yeah.
▶ 2:34:47So I mean, this this isn't exactly apples to apples in this case, but it does point out overall picture how flexibility is needed to put water where indeed is needed thanks to the ability of these projects that even exist, such as shasta dam and all the others.
▶ 2:35:04As we hear more and more about removing dams everywhere, I wonder where it stops, as the ability to store this water also makes fish habitat water that can be released year round, year in, year out, no matter what the drought situation is. So I, I see that, uh, with 49, 70 again, adding a little more flexibility with that amount of water is a plus. It's something. So is there anything else you would want to add to, uh, 2022 situation?
▶ 2:35:34I mean, let's, let's just remind people how bad that was. There's like just take the rice crop, for example. That's half a million acres grown in california. Half of that was gone. 250,000 acres was gone, basically. >> yeah. That's correct, sir. Um, approximately 250,000 acres with fallowed, um, that affected the groundwater dependent ecosystems as well. Um, when groundwater levels drop below a certain point, there's certain, uh, ecosystems that dry up the trees and the vegetation are dependent on it.
▶ 2:36:04And it's, uh, it's very impactful. >> so we're talking domestic wells around the town of orland and other areas of the county. >> and uh, prior to the tehama canal, I was a manager for dunnigan water district, one of the member districts. And, uh, there were wells in that town that dried up because of the, the the turn to groundwater pumping because there wasn't surface water available. Yeah. >> well, indeed, we we must hang on to the ability to move water as we need.
▶ 2:36:34And this flexibility is one small part of a bigger trend that we need. Um, Mr. patterson, I can't help but at least touch base on this wolf situation as we're being devastated in northeast california by the introduction of canadian gray wolves, a giant wolf that is destroying, uh, wildlife in the area. And, of course, livestock, too. I think the wolves drive around in pickups with, uh, bumper sticker says beef. It's what's for dinner, because that seems to be their only plan up there.
▶ 2:37:03Can you expound on that a little bit? On what what number does it take to actually satisfy the esa on the gray wolf? That really shouldn't be in my area, as well as the mexican wolf in your area. >> you have a disaster. Congressman, thank you for your question. >> man made disaster. Yeah. >> yes, sir. You have the esa is not designed to require or authorize the implementation of management practices that are necessary to deal with an apex predator. We're not talking about a lizard.
▶ 2:37:33We're talking about an apex predator that will go after our people, our pets, our livestock, and our wildlife. What is the number we think? You know, in our situation? They started with 100 wolves in 2015. And then that got to be uh 300 and uh 320 wolves. The number keeps going up. And that's one reason why this needs to be delisted.
▶ 2:38:01Now, I'm not familiar with what exactly the number should be in northern california. I just know you have a disaster. >> they don't know the number. I got to yield back, but, uh, um, we understand they have plans in california. We believe there's anywhere between 77 and maybe 200 roles in the northeast corner. They have plans for 900in the state, and they're also talking 1000 grizzly bears. I don't know what the wildlife and the livestock people are supposed to do. Madam chairman, I appreciate indulgence, I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. lamalfa.
▶ 2:38:28The chair now calls on ranking member hoyle for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. Um, chairman wheeler, um, what I'm most concerned about on h.r. 273 is that it would ban the federal government from even studying modifications of the lower snake river dam.
▶ 2:38:47Um, can you discuss some of your concerns, um, about what the consequences of the of of that would be? >> uh, thank you for the question, congresswoman. You know, as we as we look at, uh, out at our neighbor sometimes through our window and, uh, you know, sometimes our window is is dirty and grimy and has dust on it.
▶ 2:39:15And when we look to see, uh, what's going on out there, we don't see a clearer picture. And until we clean that window and we're able to look over there and see that the clearer picture, then how can we ever understand, uh, what what needs to happen.
▶ 2:39:31And so when, when we, when we think about, uh, the big picture of the columbia basin, uh, system or the columbia basin in general and the lower snake river and its listed species, uh, status quo has done nothing for the for the fish. They're they're in dire straits right now. There's several of the species that are, uh, about to go extinct. And, uh, if we're not able to see the the full picture, then, uh, h.r.
▶ 2:40:012073 is something that detracts from that, uh, ability to look at the, the bigger picture. And, and as we look to, to grow the pacific northwest and the nez perce in our country, uh, then we need to look at the full picture. And this disallows that. >> thank you.
▶ 2:40:21And you spoke to the, um, the treaty with the united states of 1855 and, uh, you know, the federal government does have legal treaty obligations to ensure the nez perce, the yakama, the warm springs, and umatilla tribes can fish in the columbia river.
▶ 2:40:42Um, can you I'd like you to talk about just a bit about the trust, responsibility and what that should look like in practice. >> well, in practice, if we were to look at, uh, we would say treaty bridge, for instance, from, uh, your side to our side, uh, and being able to cross that bridge in 1855, we were able to cross that bridge back and forth and over over the course of time, that bridge has deteriorated.
▶ 2:41:12If we call it treaty bridge, then, uh, you know, when we work with federal agencies under statutory authorities, they were developed and, uh, their, their, uh, development and under those statutory authorities are to, uh, ensure that the trust responsibilities are, are that they have to uphold based on treaty rights that they and the treaty that they negotiated. That's in the constitution for us under article six, clause two. And, and, uh, we're all subject to the rule of law.
▶ 2:41:41And so if you're inability to be able to uphold the rule of law in which this case, you need to uphold the rule of law, because article six, clause two, is where the supremacy clause and treaties sit, then we, we as, as people, uh, need to be able to express and explain that as as a signer of the treaty, we need to show that here's where we are on the treaty and here's where the united states is. This is what was promised.
▶ 2:42:09This is what the nez perce granted to the united states of of america. And this is what we reserved. We reserved the the ability to to hunt, fish, gather and travel and all usual and accustomed places. >> thank you. And, um, finally, we have one minute left. I'd like to give you a chance to address or elaborate on any of the statements we've heard today. Anything you'd like to add?
▶ 2:42:39>> uh, thank you, uh, for the allowance of this time. And, you know, I think that, uh, you know, one of our greatest chiefs of all time, chief joseph, said it does not take many words to speak the truth. And we come here to speak the truth. We come here to give you the fair and efficient number, the numbers that are efficient, that, uh, are factual numbers. There are factual numbers that are columbia river numbers are factual numbers that are snake river numbers.
▶ 2:43:06There are factual numbers that are esa listed species, native spawning fish that are in these waters that are going extinct, the quasi extinction, uh, threshold that many of these species are meeting, which means 50 or fewer native spawners are returning to that tributary for four consecutive years, is happening. That's that's science on the ground. I told a, uh, irrigation, uh, farmers that are in the tri-cities. We talked about this.
▶ 2:43:32I said, if you plant 100 acres and you're able to harvest 1% of one acre of your, uh, acreage, acreage, then, uh, what type of return is that? And also what is what is your science tell you? And do you believe your science? Well, we believe our science and we bring that science forward as well with us. >> thank you. Um, the chair now calls on Mr. bentz for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair. Mr.
▶ 2:44:01Mather, uh, share with us the science on the snake river dams. Current science. And what I'm thinking about is what doctor david welch told us at the hearing held up in kennewick year or so ago. Um, and he told the story about, well, a comparison of the snake to the fraser river. But go ahead and share with us right now your understanding of the science about these fish losses that these dams are allegedly causing. >> congressman, thank you for the question.
▶ 2:44:29And thank you again for your support of this legislation. So Mr. welsh's science talks about the fact that small to adult returns, that is, the young fish that are born mostly in freshwater and go out to the ocean, spend most of their lives and return that that percentage of smolt to adult returns on the snake are similar to or greater in the snake river than they are in some alaskan rivers. I'll also share. >> two alaskan rivers. You mean undammed alaskan rivers? Yes. That's a reason for drawing the parallel.
▶ 2:44:58>> yes, there are undammed rivers included in that. I will also share two that, um, based on the data that we have cited, and we absolutely stand by this data that the university of washington provides is that the peak fish returns into the columbia and snake river system was, in 2014, 2.37 million salmon and steelhead returned past bonneville dam. That is significantly higher, multiple times higher than in 1938. With those returns, we were also generating more power from our hydropower system.
▶ 2:45:27With that operation, enough power to electrify 250,000 homes in the pacific northwest. And I'm told today with the spill operations that we've had in 2019, the operation and the 2014 agreement operation, small to adult returns have not substantially improved under those operations. So one of the things that we would urge consideration for is looking at the science as what's happened with salmon returns.
▶ 2:45:54Look at the great need in terms of how climate change is impacting the ocean, which is having a huge impact on chinook salmon populations in particular and other salmon species. >> and I may, if I may interrupt you. I had repeatedly met with noaa during the biden administration in my office here, asking them to focus on the ocean, just as you've just mentioned. Yeah, they ignored me.
▶ 2:46:16It's my hope that that that will change, and we can start trying to figure out how in the world to increase these salmon runs by focusing on where we think the mortality is truly occurring. What I was, what I what I'm afraid is happening is anyone who takes a position as contrary to what was, uh, prevailing during the biden administration on fish runs is then ignored. Has this been your observation? >> so we have worked very hard to, um, amend the implementation of the 1214 agreement.
▶ 2:46:43And I would just share with the committee today, we had significant concerns with how that agreement was being implemented not only before the formation of the agreement, but since the agreement went into place, where there was clear data showing that different perspectives that might provide more power and better salmon returns were ignored. >> and if I may, because we're going to run out of time.
▶ 2:47:03Uh, in my brief glance at how much money has been spent to try to recover these runs over the past years by bonneville power, I note a number of $15 billion in deferred, uh, generation energy generation and in improving these the fish passage in these dams. Uh, does that number. I'm I'm actually quoting in part from the northwest power conservation panel report 101.43 billion in 2023 alone.
▶ 2:47:31Do these numbers sound in the ballpark to you? >> uh, Mr. bentz, I'd like to follow up. I believe the number may be higher than that. >> and what I'm trying to say is, this is a situation that we have been focusing upon literally for decades, and we've actually made dramatic improvements. I want to shift to one other thought, and it has to do with the existential nature of those dams. It happens that in world war two, one third of the aluminum that was used in our winning world war two was created by virtue of the power generated in the grand coulee dam on the columbia.
▶ 2:48:01I don't think anyone would dispute that. The absolute essential value of the electricity generated by these dams. Today we're facing another existential issue. It's called artificial intelligence. We're in a race with china, and frankly, uh, people understate where we are right now when it comes to our inability to generate enough electricity in this country. Why in the world would anyone, given that existential issue? Because it truly is.
▶ 2:48:27I want to start removing, uh, those force, those four snake river dams, or for that matter, any part of our hydro generating system. I'm asking a question rhetorically, basically, but feel free to answer. >> for any number of reasons, including, uh, clean energy goals in washington and oregon or the growing load growth that you're talking about. Mr. bentz, we don't see any future where we can reduce the output of our existing hydropower system without the assurances there's replacement generation and transmission in place. >> thank you, I yield back. >> thank you.
▶ 2:48:57The chair now recognizes miss randall for five minutes of questions. >> thank you so much, madam chair. And thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today. I think, you know, when we talk about the snake river dams, we have to consider the full breadth of both science, secondary impact and all of our stakeholders, including and especially tribes with treaty rights like the nez perce.
▶ 2:49:21And I'm so glad that chairman wheeler is with here is here with us today, um, to share his firsthand and historical perspective. Under the treaties the us government has with tribal nations, as the chairman mentioned, tribal treaty signers retain the right to fish usual and accustomed fishing areas where they're entitled to up to half of the harvestable surplus of fish stocks, fish stocks that reside in or pass through these areas.
▶ 2:49:53For many tribes, um, in my district and across the pacific northwest, salmon hold cultural and spiritual significance. You've heard the chairman talk about this today, and fishing for salmon is both a necessity and an important tradition and spiritual practice. Any conversation about the lower snake river dam must consider salmon recovery and the tribal perspective.
▶ 2:50:20It also should consider science. Last week, I visited the noaa research facility in my district and had the opportunity to learn about the sockeye salmon recovery research that they are doing in partnership with idaho fish and game, and it was really eye opening.
▶ 2:50:38And I'll say that they're worried about their grant funding to continue that work, just like we have seen attacks on scientific research across university sector, across agency. And look, I think we should be having a robust, collaborative conversation here with stakeholders.
▶ 2:51:02But I see this policy as a bill 2073 as a really troubling continuation of the trump administration's attacks on science, to say we can do no further science cuts off our ability to think about how we could innovate in the clean energy sector, to say, we can do no more science on this issue precludes us from the ability to learn how to solve problems the way that we heard
▶ 2:51:33We did, um, you know, with the grand coulee dam, um, historically, to say we can do no more science. Will only shut off our ability to keep learning.
▶ 2:51:46And again, you know, this bill doesn't determine whether or not we right now breach the lower snake river dams, but it does direct us to either continue learning and continue forward with our eyes open about the possibilities, or to shut them to shut off the ability for us to continue researching what a future without a dam might look like, how we might be able to maintain our base or increase
▶ 2:52:16Our base load energy. Um, there have been a lot of questions answered, but I want to make sure that chairman wheeler is able to speak to us. You know, any unanswered questions or any, um. Any information that came up that deserves an answer?
▶ 2:52:37I think it was clear to me and my co, delta alaska, in august that not everyone in the united states learns, except extensively about salmon and elementary school the way I did. So please, um, Mr. chairman, there's anything else you'd like to add? >> uh, thank you, madam chair.
▶ 2:52:57If I may, uh, the the things that we think about at nez perce are, you know, the way of life of of the people and our relationship and sovereign to our sovereign united states of america and and who we are as a neighbor, who we are regionally, who we are nationally, and who we are globally. To think about, um, advancing the pacific northwest into, into the future. And we can talk about archaic dams and continued escalating costs going into the future.
▶ 2:53:26And we can talk about the future when we think about ai and all the all the things that are happening, going on, going on, that's going to be happening. But, you know, if we're not allowing new technologies and new ideas to come forward, then we're not doing the right thing for our people and for those generations yet to come. Every, every child in my community basically has some type of handheld device that takes electricity to charge it. So electricity is very important to the nez perce agriculture. Food is very important to us.
▶ 2:53:56Transportation, recreation, all important to us. But so is our culture and so is the culture of the people yet to come. And for us to advance that going into the future, that's all we're here for, is to ensure that the pacific northwest becomes stronger, better and smarter. And under the resilient columbia basin agreement, that's all we were attempting to do was to show what the future could look like and should look like going on from here on for the next generations. >> thank you. Um, the chair now recognizes Mr.
▶ 2:54:24Gosar for five minutes of questioning. >> yes. Mr. patterson, critics will tell us that that, uh, mexican wolf has not met the recovery yet. You and I both know that's false. Uh, you describe this problem as america being held hostage by a foreign government, aka mexico. Question. Should the international population of mexican wolves remain in domestic goals?
▶ 2:54:51>> it's a thank you, congressman. It's absurd for us to think, to be so arrogant as to think in the united states, that we can dictate foreign policy in mexico. If the mexican government wants to recover the wolf, let the mexican government recover the wolf. But what we can control is what happens in the united states. I would hope so. What we should focus on is what's in the united states.
▶ 2:55:19>> now, you mentioned the cost earlier in your testimony, but our american taxpayers footing the bill for recovery in mexico. And what is that cost. >> to date? According according to the fish and wildlife service, the american taxpayer has spent $74.6 million on recovery of the mexican wolf at a hearing in reserve, new mexico, a couple of weeks ago, the chief of the wildlife division was asked the question, are we sending money to mexico
▶ 2:55:52To help them recover the mexican wolf? The answer was yes. How much of the 74.6 million is going to mexico? I do not know. And he didn't answer. >> wow. Now, as a dentist and a health care professional, I must address the human impacts of the mexican wolf.
▶ 2:56:08Now, here I have a study in 2006 from doctor james thai titled psychological impact of wolf introduction a preliminary study which found that many of the children and adults affected suffered emotional distress from those close encounters with wolves and trauma attacks on their pets and livestock. Now, I understand this is a dentist because when you hurt a kid, you hurt them for a lifetime. Okay, so, uh, Mr.
▶ 2:56:31Thai concluded, it is clear that the individuals involved fear a loss of income, serious damage to their way of life. The greatest fear focused around a very real and present threat of a wolf attack on a human, most especially a young child.
▶ 2:56:47Another one here, a 2007 study from doctor julia martin titled changes in the mental health of children who have been intimately exposed to wolves, found that the changes in affected children's behavior to include about 75% of major symptoms of ptsd. I ask unanimous unanimous places in the record. >> without objection. So ordered. >> Mr. patterson, do you agree that the mexican wolf continues to negatively negatively affect the children and adults?
▶ 2:57:18>> I think the navajo nation has it correct. Congressman, the alamo chapter of the navajo nation has subscribed to the testimony on video on wolves among us all, that the mexican wolf is evil. It is a skinwalker. It is a personification of evil. It causes mental illness.
▶ 2:57:38I would add to that the personal experience with my neighbors, with callie mcqueen, who wakes up at night screaming with nightmares of wolves. The nightmares that her older sister taylor mcqueen has because wolves killed her barrel horse. Of course, these kids don't feel safe.
▶ 2:58:06Of course they have. They will have problems with the consequences of this, of this program. >> so another part, the mismanagement of the mexican wolf, is another case of ngos taking the reins and steering the initial intent completely off course. Can you speak to how the ngos have hindered the progress in recovery? Uh, delisting and and delinking?
▶ 2:58:34>> in our experience, the ngos have advocated for one thing more wolves. Regardless of what the impact is going to be on the people who live among wolves, we have to pay attention to the reality of the people who live among wolves, and they refuse to acknowledge that every time we make a suggestion, whether it's about population control or about dealing with habituated wolves or giving, uh, public safety
▶ 2:59:06Officials and livestock producers the tools they need to manage around wolves, they have objected. So are they are they compromising the ability to recover the wolves? Absolutely. Because if we don't get local buy in to recovery of mexican wolves, we will never have a successful recovery program. And that's one thing that this administration has recognized. It's not just numbers, it's sustainable recovery.
▶ 2:59:35>> and it's inclusion of everybody within that process. More local control. Absolutely I yield back. >> thank you. Uh, I want to thank each of the witnesses here today for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses. And if so, we will ask you to respond to those in writing. Under committee rule three, members of the committee must submit such questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m.
▶ 3:00:04Eastern on monday, september 8th. The hearing record will be held open for ten business days. For these responses, if there is no further business. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.