▶ 0:00:01N the city or county in which they live, and homeowners now spend 30% more on household appliances than they did in 2010. While there are a variety of factors that have contributed to these rising costs, we cannot ignore the impacted impact of misguided policies. Have had the biden administration tied inflation reduction act, the ira funding to the forced adoption of the 2021 model energy codes, which restricted the use of gas and promote electrification, even if it was not an appropriate choice for the consumer.
▶ 0:00:30This was done despite their own data that showed homes with natural gas hookups over three times more affordable than electric options. But the biden administration didn't stop there. The doe issued a rule to eliminate the use of fossil fuels in all new and modified federal buildings, beginning in 2030. This would have included military installations and housing, some residential buildings and sites of critical national security importance, like the pentagon.
▶ 0:00:59Not only would this compromise our security, but the rule would also have actually increased energy usage and added further strain to our nation's electric grid. We must strike a healthy balance between utilizing affordable energy and implementing common sense, effective energy conservation measures. Again, I want to thank our witnesses for their participation here today, and we look forward to hearing their perspectives. And I want to again, thank you all.
▶ 0:01:26And I yield back the balance of my time and now recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, the gentlelady from florida's 14th district, for five minutes for an opening statement. >> well, thank you, Mr. chairman. Good afternoon everyone. I've been looking forward to this hearing because it provides us with an opportunity to remind americans that significant savings and tax credits are available. If you need to replace a household appliance, or upgrade your ac and heating system, or make other home improvements.
▶ 0:01:54These savings were intentionally provided by democrats in the inflation reduction act that we passed in 2022. The savings were supposed to be available to all americans for ten years, but republicans ended them early to pay for huge tax breaks for billionaires and big corporations and their big ugly bill.
▶ 0:02:21But there is still time if you need to install new energy, a new energy efficient appliance, or make home improvements by the end of the year, you could save a whole bunch of money in 2023. 3.4 million households saved over $8 billion from these tax credits, and that doesn't count the reduction in electric bills.
▶ 0:02:46Hardworking americans could really use those savings, as electric bills and costs continue to skyrocket. In florida, the largest power utility in our state proposed a nearly $10 billion rate hike earlier this year that's reported to be the largest hike in american history. And all across the country, customers are grappling with surging electric bills.
▶ 0:03:13Um, and I think we have to say now, here we are in september, it's clear that donald trump and republicans have broken their promise to lower costs, and their reckless policies are making life more expensive. In addition to the harsh impact of the big ugly bill, trump tariffs are causing pain and creating chaos.
▶ 0:03:34And to add insult to injury, republicans in congress and the trump administration have taken a hatchet to energy efficiency standards. Which is so silly because energy efficiency saves people money. Appliance standards typically save households more than $500 on their energy bills each year.
▶ 0:03:58Homeowners will save $15,000 for homes built using the 2021 building codes, compared to the old ones. And my neighbors back in florida, they know firsthand about the importance of building energy codes. They keep people safe in well insulated homes amid record heat waves like the one we experienced this summer. Families and businesses also save money when codes and design standards help their buildings stand up to strong winds and flooding and increasingly intense hurricanes.
▶ 0:04:30Strong building codes provide insurance companies with greater certainty in high risk areas, allowing them to offer less costly insurance policies and saving taxpayers from becoming the insurer of last resort. Federal codes and standards are developed collaboratively with local local officials, builders, manufacturers, industry and consumer reps, and neither congress nor the administration. They don't force it on anyone.
▶ 0:04:59They are adopted and enforced by state and local jurisdictions, not the federal government. And when these standards are not updated, it also hurts america's global competitiveness. They modern standards increase incentives to innovate and protect domestic companies against competition from inferior projects. Now all of this. So you have the tariffs. You have the big ugly bill. You've got a war and energy efficiency. And then the president wants to eliminate epa's energy star program. That's what I heard when I was home all summer.
▶ 0:05:31Let's make things more expensive. Let's make our appliances more expensive. Let's take that public information away from people who need it. No, let's be clear. Energy efficiency saves electricity, reduces consumer costs, and increases household comfort, reliability and resilience so republicans can kill consumer savings. They can turn a blind eye to tariffs. They can take a hatchet to efficiency.
▶ 0:05:57Uh, and just last week, uh, republicans passed their energy and water spending bill. Which another it's another way they're raising costs on american families because weatherization of homes is very popular. But you know what they did in their spending bill? They ratcheted back those important weatherization assistance programs that help families save about $372 more every year.
▶ 0:06:22So, unfortunately, my republican colleagues are going in the extreme opposite direction. They're proposing to prevent any future regulations on projects, products like dishwashers and washing machines, stoves or light bulbs. They want to trap americans with outdated and expensive technologies forever, while the rest of the world moves on without us. That's an expensive proposition that we reject. I yield back my time.
▶ 0:06:49>> the gentlelady yields back, and the chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee, the gentleman from kentucky for five minutes for for. >> thank you. Thank you. Chair. Thank you for holding this hearing. And thank our witnesses for being here under the energy and policy and conservation act.
▶ 0:07:06Doe must evaluate energy efficiency standards for equipment categories every six years, but it may also impose new or amended standards if it finds that such standards are technologically feasible, economically justified and will result in significant energy savings. Unfortunately, doe's appliance and equipment standards program has strayed far from its original intent and now yields the minimum energy efficiency benefits while imposing sufficient costs on consumers and manufacturers.
▶ 0:07:37Today's homeowners spend about 34% on appliances, more more than they did 15 years ago. From 1995 to 2005, the average homeowner replaced their appliances every 12 to 13 years. Now, that timeline has shrunk from every 8 to 9. And I can tell you that from personal experience. Even more concerning, as aspiring homeowners also face record housing prices, in part due to the rising cost of compliance with onerous regulations under the guise of energy efficiency.
▶ 0:08:05The biden-harris administration's doe issued nearly 30 energy efficient regulations totaling over 60 billion in cost to the economy. Biden's doe proposed and finalized president biden's proposed new standards to regulate virtually every appliance american consumers use, forcing families to spend more or less reliable options. Sadly, these costs hit the hardest work family, working families the hardest.
▶ 0:08:32In fact, several regulations promulgated by the biden administration went as far as banning natural gas appliances, a blatant attack on consumers in the market, forcing american families to purchase electric appliances. And the irony is that in doing so, demand on our electric grid exacerbating reliability issues that are already facing due to another misguided electric grid policies. At least 70 local governments in california, as well as dozens more in states in washington, D.C.
▶ 0:09:01Also have enacted restrictions on gas appliances. New york has a statewide gas ban in many states, have adopted building codes and performance standards that act as de facto gas bans. As if this wasn't going far enough, the latest administration, the last administration, also finalized regulations to enforce a fossil fuels ban on all federal buildings, including military installations, residential housing, housing and sites with highly sensitive functions like nih and the pentagon.
▶ 0:09:30These building and appliance policies are dangerous, unsustainable and expensive. American ratepayers are seeing the impact of these misguided policies reflected in their utility bills already, as more strain is placed on the grid and baseload sources like natural gas are restricted, prices will rise and reliability will plummet.
▶ 0:09:50I look forward to working with chair adam, members of this committee, to develop policies that make homes and appliances less expensive for consumers, strengthen our electric grid, and allow more families to realize the american dream. It's not. It doesn't make products cheaper to make them more expensive and just subsidize on the back end. What we need to do is make the products that people allow manufacturers to make products that people want to buy at the price they want to pay for it.
▶ 0:10:21So I thank you for that and I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey, the ranking member of the full committee for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Today's hearing continues. Republicans illogical plan to increase monthly energy bills for american families who are already struggling to make ends meet as prices on everyday goods increase thanks to trump's trade war.
▶ 0:10:45The latest jobs report, the worst since the start of the covid 19 pandemic, proves just how devastating republican policies are. In august, job growth came to a crawl, adding just 22,000 jobs at a time when home energy bills are rising all over the country, in large part thanks to the disastrous and malicious policies of the trump administration and congressional republicans.
▶ 0:11:09House republicans have chosen to double down on their attacks on the very tools that we have to keep energy bills low. In my home state of new jersey, energy prices have already increased thanks to pgm's inability to add new resources to the grid. These increases, coupled with the devastating project financing cuts from the trump administration, hurt new jersey families.
▶ 0:11:31And now house republicans seem to have decided, rather than helping everyday families with monthly energy bills, they want to make our homes more expensive to heat and cool. Today, we're likely to hear republicans misrepresent the facts around energy efficiency, conservation standards, and building codes. And let me set the record straight about some of the misinformation committee. Republicans continue to circulate a factually inaccurate claim about the cost of meeting the 2021 international energy code.
▶ 0:12:03Their numbers result of double counting and including measures not required by the code. In reality, building energy codes have a negligible impact on housing prices, but they save homeowners real money on their monthly energy bill for the moment, they move into the house, and republicans will also suggest that energy efficiency standards disproportionately target natural gas products. But in reality, the law prohibits doe from eliminating products based on their fuel source. This is all incredibly important.
▶ 0:12:31In a time of rising energy prices, increased energy demand on the grid, and slow job growth, republicans big ugly bill is projected to raise electricity prices by an astonishing 61% over the next decade, costing americans nearly $300 more each year. And trump ran on a promise to cut energy costs in half in his first year.
▶ 0:12:52But republicans jammed through this disastrous bill that provides giant tax breaks for the billionaire friends while sending american utility bills through the roof. Energy efficiency standards are popular. In 2020, four, american households saved over $500 on their energy bills thanks to industry supported appliance standards. And in 2023, energy efficiency jobs employed almost 2.3 million people. But I'm not surprised that we're here debating all this again.
▶ 0:13:21Energy efficiency used to be a bipartisan topic, but over the last few years, republicans have politicized and polarized these common sense policies. Congressional republicans and the trump administration spent the first eight months of the year gutting the department of energy, targeting efficiency standards through numerous congressional review act resolutions, gutting clean energy incentives, keeping expensive fossil fuel plants online, and imposing costly tariffs that are supercharging inflation.
▶ 0:13:51These actions directly result in rising costs for americans. Republicans don't care about lowering costs. All they care about is rewarding their oil and gas friends, punishing clean energy and keeping president trump happy doesn't matter what the facts are. If trump doesn't like his showerhead, congressional republicans will prioritize his needs over the needs of everyday americans. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I hope we're able to have a productive conversation centered around facts and the merits of energy efficiency.
▶ 0:14:21And with that, I yield back the balance of my time. Mr. Mr. chairman. >> well, thank you very much. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. And that now concludes member opening statements. The chair reminds members that pursuant to committee rules, all members opening statements will be made part of the record. Again, we want to thank our witnesses for being with us today and taking time to testify before the subcommittee. Each witness will have the opportunity to give an opening statement of five minutes, followed by a round of questions from the members. And just some housekeeping.
▶ 0:14:50You want to make sure that the mics pulled up close to you and turn that mic on when you when you speak, when you see the light goes red, when you're in your statement, uh, that means it's time to sum up. But our witnesses for today are Mr. buddy hughes, the chairman of the board at the national association of home builders. Mr. ben lieberman, senior fellow at the competitive enterprise institute.
▶ 0:15:17Miss kara saul rinaldi, chief policy officer at the building performance association. And Mr. jim steffes, the senior vice president of regulatory policy and advocacy at washington gas. Again, we appreciate all of you being here today. And, Mr. hughes, you are recognized for five minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:15:42>> chairman, ranking member castor and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to testify here today. Uh, my name is buddy hughes. I'm a small builder from lexington, north carolina, and for 2025, I'm chairman of the board at the national association of homebuilders. Our members are on the front lines of an affordability crisis. 75% of households can't afford a median priced new home.
▶ 0:16:10And half the renters in this country spend over 30% of their income on housing costs. New washington mandates will only make this crisis worse. One of the biggest drivers of those costs are restrictions on energy choice, appliance standards and mandates on energy codes.
▶ 0:16:32While often well intentioned, the reality is they drive up prices, limit choices for families, and take important decisions out of the hands of homeowners. Energy choice is at the top of our list. More and more states and cities are moving to ban natural gas.
▶ 0:16:52New york has already passed a ban that takes effect in 2026, and that means no gas stoves, no gas water heaters, no gas furnaces in new homes in cold weather states. Meeting those requirements can add more than $15,000 to the cost of a home. That's just not sustainable. In a place where most households are already priced out of a new home, families feel it every month in their utility bills.
▶ 0:17:22Last winter, households using natural gas spent about 42% less and saved over $125 billion over the last decade. That's why nahb believes families, not government mandates, should decide what energy and and appliances make sense in their own homes. Appliance choice is part of that same story.
▶ 0:17:52Doe's recent rules on furnaces, water heaters and stoves phase out natural gas, raise costs and cut off choices. Congress can protect families from higher costs by preventing appliance standards from being turned into back door gas bans. Now, let me be clear when it comes to building energy codes, nahb supports reasonable and most of all, cost effective codes.
▶ 0:18:24We've worked with state and local governments for decades to modernize codes, but what we can't support are rigid federal mandates that force every state and local government into the same costly outcome. The push to to require the 2021 icc as a national baseline is a prime example.
▶ 0:18:46Compliance with this code can add more than $31,000 to the cost of a new home, and the payback period on that extra cost and upgrades is approaching 90 years.
▶ 0:18:58This problem is compounded by section 501 three, one of the inflation reduction act, which conditions a million $1 billion in federal funds on adoption of the 2122, 2021 icc by tying dollars to a single code.
▶ 0:19:19The program eliminates local flexibility, undermines state authority and pressures communities into costly mandates that hurt affordability. You don't have to look any further than kansas city, missouri, after adopting the 2021 icc to qualify for these funds, single family housing permits dropped 22%, while permits in the surrounding communities jumped
▶ 0:19:49117%. The result was fewer homes, fewer jobs and higher cost for families. New homes are already highly efficient. The bigger opportunity lies in the 130 million older homes built before modern codes, where retrofits can deliver far greater energy savings than adding cost to the small share of new homes built each year.
▶ 0:20:17Nahb supports practical, cost effective energy policies. The federal mandates on energy appliances, or codes that ignore affordability, will only make the housing crisis worse. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify here today, and I look forward to your questions. >> well, thank you very much for your statement. And, Mr. lieberman, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. >> chair, ranking member, castor castor, members of the subcommittee, dedicated staff.
▶ 0:20:49Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is ben lieberman. I'm a senior fellow with the competitive enterprise institute, a nonpartisan public policy organization that concentrates on regulatory issues from a free market perspective. Prior to that, I worked on several of these issues as a staffer on this committee from 2011 to 2018. But I've actually been following the issues, these issues, all the way back to the 1990s and over that span. I've seen some of the problems with these regulations only getting worse for consumers.
▶ 0:21:19When I started, most home appliances were subjected to one or at most two rounds of department of energy efficiency regulators regulations, but now many have been hit with 4 or 5 or even six rounds of successively tighter standards. And the law requires doe to periodically revisit these standards and consider tightening them, but does not allow the agency to make them less stringent or sunset or sunset them, even if there's clear evidence that they've backfired on consumers. Now.
▶ 0:21:48As far back as 1996, there was widespread recognition that there were problems with the appliance overregulation, and doe instituted a number of process reforms to restore balance. I bring this up for two reasons. It demonstrates that some of the problems were already evident almost 30 years ago, and given that these reforms were instituted under president clinton, it shows that this issue wasn't always as partizan as it is today.
▶ 0:22:12But unfortunately, the 1996 process reforms were not judicially reviewable and have sometimes, in fact, quite often been ignored. Now, all of these standards raise the upfront costs of appliances, and in some cases, like the upcoming furnace and water heater regulations, the increase is so steep that homeowners may not earn back the upfront cost in the form of energy savings.
▶ 0:22:35The law has a provision that the initial cost increase, not be more than that is earned back within three years, but this metric is not mandatory and is routinely bypassed. Other rules compromise product quality. Perhaps most annoying are dishwashers, which now take two or more hours to do a normal cycle, twice as long as it took before standards were in place. Washing machines have been subjected to regulations.
▶ 0:23:00In 1994, 2004, 2007, 2015, 2018 and most recently in 2024, and have also caused several performance problems. And refrigerators don't last as long as they used to. Choices are also being limited, and not just incandescent light bulbs. For example, the option of a non-condensing gas furnace will no longer be available in 2028 when the latest rule takes effect.
▶ 0:23:28Climate change has become a finger on the scale, favoring more regulations, and has been used to disproportionately target natural gas using appliance in favor of electric versions. Now, h.r. 4626, the don't mess with my home appliance appliances act contains a number of very good ideas and deserve serious consideration. Best of all is the look back provision, which would allow the agency to fix problems with existing regulations.
▶ 0:23:56I mean, do we really want to keep pretending that department of energy appliance regulators have never made mistakes that need correcting? And do we want to keep pretending that there aren't homeowners who are unhappy with the results of some of these regulations? I would note that this common sense reform was one of the recommendations in a national academies report on appliance regulations.
▶ 0:24:16The bill also contains provisions to ensure that any new rule saves consumers more money than it costs, which makes so much sense that most people would be surprised that it isn't already standard practice at the agency. The bill also states that these regulations cannot be used to impose climate policy, and that natural gas appliances cannot be disproportionately targeted. In addition, h.r.
▶ 0:24:384758, the homeowner energy efficiency act, takes the critical step of repealing several inflation reduction act programs that pursue this anti natural gas agenda. Needless to say, the american people don't want to see our tax dollars being used to take away our energy choices. I do think these bills could go further. In particular there are several home appliance categories that have already been so badly overregulated they should be exempted from any further rules.
▶ 0:25:06I would suggest dishwashers, washing machines and light bulbs. I also believe that stoves should have never been regulated in the first place and ought to be excluded, but overall, the less government interference with our appliance choices, the better. If we can't sunset the program entirely, let's at least do some judicious pruning. And these bills are a good start. Thank you. >> thank you, Mr. lieberman. And Mr. rinaldi, you're recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. Thank you. >> subcommittee chair.
▶ 0:25:36Lada, chair, guthrie. Subcommittee and ranking member. Subcommittee ranking member. Castor and ranking member pallone and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. The building sector is responsible for nearly 30% of us energy consumption, but a significant portion of this is energy is wasted. Energy efficiency in buildings and appliances lowers costs for families and businesses.
▶ 0:25:58Policies aimed at building homes more efficiently, and retrofitting the over 120 million existing residential units across the country will help will not only help homeowners save money, but will also improve household comfort, health, safety and resiliency. Advancing energy efficiency across the us reduces demand on our energy system while driving local job growth.
▶ 0:26:20Among the small business contractors that I am proud to represent here today, my name is kara saul rinaldi and I serve as the chief policy officer for the building performance association. Bpa is a membership driven industry association dedicated to advancing the home and building performance industry. I appreciate the opportunity to represent bpa, to share how energy efficiency isn't about doing less. It's about using america's greatest resource to do more, better, and at lower costs.
▶ 0:26:47Last month, the us department of energy released its united states energy and employment report. Or the user, the 2025 user affirmed what past reports have repeatedly shown that the energy efficiency sector is the largest employer across the entire energy sector, employing nearly 2.4 million americans and more workers than the entire us fuels and electric generation industries combined.
▶ 0:27:09Using data from the user, bpa releases an annual energy efficiency jobs in america report featuring district level data, and I look forward to sending it to each of your offices when the report is ready later this fall. A home built today is an existing home tomorrow, and may be part of our housing infrastructure for a century.
▶ 0:27:26If it is not built within with adequate insulation, air sealing, efficient ductwork, heating and cooling and windows, homeowners will be hard pressed to spend the time, money and money to upgrade their home at a cost significantly more than building the home efficiently in the first place. Building codes and standards also protect renters. According to the the 2023 census data, 35% of americans live in rental properties.
▶ 0:27:52Tenants usually pay the electric fuel bills because landlords do not receive energy savings benefits when replacing appliances, they have no incentive to invest in more efficient equipment, building energy codes and appliance and equipment standards provide the minimum efficiency baseline to protect american homeowners and renters, according to ac tripoli. While we continue to see rising energy demand, energy efficiency saves americans approximately $1 billion annually by investing in energy efficiency.
▶ 0:28:20We have we have built buildings and appliances that save more, do more, and last longer while using less energy. And we need to continue this innovation if we are to mitigate the cost of bringing new data centers online. While data centers accounted for roughly 4.4% of us electricity usage as of 2023, this figure is projected to to rise to as much as 12% in the next three years, and will greatly impact the cost of energy for everyday americans.
▶ 0:28:48We know that capital investments to meet peak electricity demand is a primary driver of cost. But if american homes are allowed to invest in dynamic efficiency improvements, we can mitigate billions of dollars in long term distribution system costs, energy efficiency upgrades, and utility data access paired with smart devices can reduce peak demand and allow new data centers to join the grid without significant cost to ratepayers.
▶ 0:29:11Given the time needed to build new transmission, energy efficiency and flexible demand technologies are the only solutions that can meet the rapid pace of data center deployment. Roughly 60% of homes were built before 1980, before modern energy codes, leading to unnecessarily high utility bills for many americans. Over 33 million american households are energy insecure, with nearly 25 million households reducing food or medicine to pay for energy costs.
▶ 0:29:40Doe estimated that while the average household spends $2,000 on their annual utility bills, between 200 to $400 of this is wasted from inefficiency. In conclusion, despite the incredible strides in energy efficiency, buildings including the appliances and equipment in them, are among the largest consumers of energy and some of the greatest opportunities to support dynamic change with policy and program innovation.
▶ 0:30:06That brings the pieces I've discussed together to optimize energy usage, we can deliver more reliable and affordable energy, all while making buildings healthier, sturdier, cheaper, and more comfortable places to live and work. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much for your opening statement. And Mr. steffes, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. >> thank you. Chair. Ranking member castor, members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to testify today. My name is jim steffes. I'm a senior vice president at washington gaslight.
▶ 0:30:34Washington was a small town when washington gas brought light to its first customer, the us capitol, in 1848. We have grown with this community ever since, and care deeply about the more than 1.2 million customers we serve today across the district of columbia, maryland and virginia. We deliver affordable energy to heat homes, cook food, and enjoy hot showers. The safe and reliable energy is easy to take for granted, but is only available because of the more than 1000 dedicated employees in our continued capital investment.
▶ 0:31:03Maintaining a vast network of essential infrastructure every day at washington gas, we work to earn our customers trust and confidence. Our mission is simple deliver affordable, reliable, safe and secure energy to the national capital region. Energy security is critical and inseparable from national security. Our community and our customers, including the federal government, depend upon natural gas from federal offices and military installations to mission critical research campuses to hospitals and homes.
▶ 0:31:32Our gas service allow customers to do what needs to get done affordably and reliably. Disruption and challenges to delivering natural gas across the national capital region would ripple far beyond the local community, threatening the functioning of federal agencies and their ability to respond to emergency in our nation's needs. That is why washington gas continues to make strategic investments in safety and modernization. Energy delivery in the national capital region is not just a utility service. It is an essential underpinning of federal government operations.
▶ 0:32:01Make no mistake, our region is facing significant energy challenges, especially electricity market challenges. The national capital region has seen the price for power capacity surge 964% since the summer of 2023, analysts project household electricity rates could rise 30 to 60% by 2030, eliminating restricting natural gas at a time of sizable electricity demand growth would further destabilize the grid, while transmission and power generation projects are underway, they are slow to
▶ 0:32:33Develop and interconnect. Pjm power capacity. Price forecasts highlight this lengthy process. In the meantime, modernizing our gas pipeline infrastructure is a proven, effective way to keep energy affordable and reliable. That is why we have continued to invest over $500 million annually, all while creating good paying jobs to continue our infrastructure modernization efforts, we ask congress to direct phmsa to reengage actively with state regulatory commissions, as phmsa did under secretary ray lahood. Leadership.
▶ 0:33:02Through the 2011 call to action. Safety mattered then, and it still matters today. Phmsa must urge regulators in the district of columbia, maryland and virginia to continue to authorize accelerated replacement mechanisms with a clear focus on safety. Phmsa engagement with the states is critical to ongoing pipeline replacement programs and de-risking our pipeline network. Energy choice is also under threat.
▶ 0:33:29New use restrictions at the local and state level limit our customers choice for natural gas. For instance, both the district of columbia in montgomery county, maryland, have passed building performance standards in net zero building codes that restrict customer energy choice, force of electrification, impose millions, if not billions of dollars in compliance costs.
▶ 0:33:50At the federal level, section 433 of the energy independence and security act requires new and renovated federal buildings to eliminate fossil fuel use by 2030. These local, state, and federal policies impose new costs on to households, businesses, and the federal government. These policies also risk amplifying the crisis in the electricity market. To overcome these restrictions on energy choice, congress should do two things to support energy security and energy choice.
▶ 0:34:19First, pass the reliable infrastructure act, which would repeal section 433 and allow federal buildings to take a balanced approach to their energy future. Second, pass the energy choice act, which prevents state and local gas bans from restricting energy choice in a balkanized and haphazard manner. Together, these two actions safeguard energy affordability, energy reliability and energy choice for consumers, including federal facilities.
▶ 0:34:44Natural gas is indispensable to heating our homes, to powering our families, to delivering energy affordability, to growing our economy, and to ensuring long term energy security. Washington gas is committed to working with you to modernize our infrastructure, protect energy reliability, and preserve energy choice so we can meet the energy needs of today and tomorrow, affordably and securely. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. >> well, thank you very much for your testimony.
▶ 0:35:13And that will conclude our witnesses opening statements. And at this time, we will go to the members questions. And I will begin with my questions. And for five minutes. Us utilities have committed to 116gw of large capacity additions in the next few years, approximately 15.5% of the current peak demand. There is significant.
▶ 0:35:41There is significant need for energy capacity and associated infrastructure, and the market is responding. A leading industrial firm will double gas turbine production capacity within the next two years. Distribution transformers are also in high demand.
▶ 0:35:57The previous administration proposed a standard under epc for transformers that would have required a complete retooling of the product design and material composition while yielding while yielding an efficiency gain of less than one tenth of a percent. This standard will exacerbate supply chain issues. Mr.
▶ 0:36:17Lieberman, do you know if efficiency gain of less than one tenth of a percent qualifies a unit of as yielding significant energy savings as required by epa? >> well, clearly it doesn't. And there's a provision in the underlying law, the energy policy and conservation act, explicitly forbidding doe from setting a new or an amended standard unless it saves a significant amount of energy. In fact, that's that's in the statute more than once.
▶ 0:36:48Unfortunately, it never quantified significant conservation of energy. And we've seen over time it's become eye of the beholder. And and doe will will will will set a standard even if the energy conservation seems to be trivial. Another example of that is the most recent stove standard. It would save gas stove cooktop owners about $0.21 a year, but that was considered that was considered significant.
▶ 0:37:15So I think there's some value in the don't mess with the home appliances act puts numbers and percentages on conservation of energy. So it's not really changing the underlying statutory provisions. It's just making them easier or making them harder to to, to get around. So I think the answer is yes. It was. It was a trivial amount of energy. And that standard should not have. >> let me ask you another question.
▶ 0:37:42When a product has maximized technologically achievable energy efficiency gain, is it reasonable to allow products to no longer be regulated under epca? >> yes. And some of these appliances have been regulated now four times, five times. Some of them are on to the sixth round of successively tighter, tighter standards. We're proving the law of diminishing marginal returns, or maybe even negative returns. I think it makes perfect sense to have stopping points.
▶ 0:38:08I believe the original statute contemplated that. But we're not seeing that as, as as somebody once said, birds fly, fish swim and regulators regulate. So we'll just we'll just we'll just keep seeing more and more regulations over time, even if they don't necessarily make sense. >> well thank you. Um, Mr.
▶ 0:38:27Stephanie bice, section 433 of the energy independence and security act required doe to phase out fossil fuel generated energy consumption in new and remodeled federal buildings by 2030. How will this impact energy reliability at sites of high national security importance like the pentagon, fort meade? >> um, thank you, Mr. chairman. You know, the energy network is built upon two distinct networks the gas network and electricity grid.
▶ 0:38:56They work together, removing natural gas from facilities, federal facilities, whatever form they are, office buildings or military installations will reduce the ability to have redundant energy needs. Backup energy needs in the moment of crisis. Clearly that will challenge reliability. Uh, our system, our natural gas system is 99.7% reliable. Um, we are very proud of that fact. As an underground network, removing that removes reliability. I also think it will challenge affordability.
▶ 0:39:26By doing that, people, the government will have to invest money that they would otherwise not need to invest. And worst of all, you're going to be driving up, uh, the demand, uh, in a very difficult time for the electricity market. All those things are coming to bear if we don't repeal four, three, three. >> well, thank you. Um, Mr.
▶ 0:39:47Hughes, in my last about 45 seconds, um, the previous administration took a whole, a whole of government approach to develop and mandate green building policies to end all use of fossil fuel for heating and cooking. And how have these policies already impacted americans? Despite the current administration's efforts to correct course and enforce? I got about 22 seconds. >> and I'm sorry, I didn't understand. >> yeah.
▶ 0:40:16Uh, the previous administration took a whole of government approach to develop and mandate green building policies and use of fossil fuel energy for heating and cooking. And the question is, how are these policies already impacting americans? Despite the current administration's efforts to correct course? Unfortunately, I'm out of time, so I'm going to have to ask try to get that in writing from you.
▶ 0:40:39And at this time, I yield back and I will recognize the gentlelady from florida, the ranking member of the subcommittee, for five minutes for her questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Miss sol rinaldi, uh, this committee has heard repeatedly that we can anticipate unprecedented increases in electricity demand in the coming years.
▶ 0:40:59How do appliance standards and energy efficiency and building energy codes help address the growing load growth requirements? >> the growing the low growth is going to be need to be addressed by energy efficiency. There's no way to actually to get to be able to meet it as rapidly as the low growth is without being able to deploy energy efficiency. Um, and codes and standards set a baseline.
▶ 0:41:28And then what we really need is to have an additional, uh, dynamic efficiency that's, um, using buildings as, uh, virtual power plants so that we can meet those additional peak loads. We have to remember that utilities, uh, build power plants to meet their peak needs. And so, um, buildings can be a part of meeting those peak needs by reducing energy use during, uh, during those, those peak times.
▶ 0:41:55But building codes and, and buildings and appliance standards will add additional will bring additional demand off the grid and further help um meet meet the needs of that load growth. >> and talk about the the the speed and the timeline of deploying energy efficiency, uh, to address low growth or building a new power plant, whether whether it's renewable or gas.
▶ 0:42:19>> to permit and build a power plant can take 5 to 7 years, whereas depending on whether or not the the technologies have already been deployed, um, deploying energy efficiency in virtual in a virtual power plant way, which is connecting all of those buildings and all of those smart systems can take, you know, 5 to 7 months. So it's significantly faster to deploy energy efficiency.
▶ 0:42:44And then, of course, as you move energy efficiency and, and give opportunities, whether it's tax credits, um, for uh, to to buy those more efficient appliances, those are, those are things that can further push the higher efficiency elements into the marketplace. >> it seems like just a recipe for higher cost.
▶ 0:43:04If you if you denigrate the, the, uh, ability of energy efficiency to to help help with low growth issue, I was also really surprised in your testimony, uh, that you pointed out the 2025 us energy and employment report. I had no idea that the energy efficiency sector employs 2.4 million workers, while if you add up petroleum, natural gas, coal combined, that's it's 866,000 workers. That that's surprising to me.
▶ 0:43:33So now that, uh, republicans have repealed tax credits and savings in their big ugly bill, and when you add on the tariffs and you're cutting weatherization, um, and now obviously they're setting up, uh, some bills to come to committee to, to undermine energy efficiency and savings. What is what do you project is going to happen to all of those jobs?
▶ 0:43:59>> it's hard to know because that we just had that the bill had just recently passed, and we still have the tax credits that 25 tax credit for, um, which is the energy efficiency credit for homeowners, uh, they have until the end of the year to take advantage of those tax credits. So, um, contractors are working really hard to make sure that, that their customers know that if they were thinking about putting in a heat pump, they were thinking about putting in more insulation in their home.
▶ 0:44:26This is a time to take advantage of that tax credit if they have a tax liability. Um, so so we don't know quite yet. We do know that these tax credits past the 25 tax credit passed in 2005, and it did lead to an increase in jobs.
▶ 0:44:40And, um, and so as we take those opportunities away from homeowners to, to be able to meet those additional higher technology jobs, which, which do cost a little bit more and be able to offset that with the tax credit, it's unclear exactly what that's going to do to jobs, but there will be an impact. >> you know, thank you very much, because that's where I started my testimony. Folks have until the end of the year to take advantage of this.
▶ 0:45:07And back home in florida, you know how important it is as people rebuild from the hurricanes. We're one year out from helene and milton, and this is a godsend because those tax credits can go to doors, windows, insulation. You're replacing your ac with a much more efficient heat pump that will save you money. Um, so let the word go forth. Take these have to be installed by the end of the year. And the american people deserve these savings.
▶ 0:45:37It's it's just not right for republicans here in the trump administration to serve the bottom line of polluters and billionaires rather than hard working americans. Uh, thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentlelady yields back the balance of her time. The chair now recognizes the vice chair of the subcommittee, the gentleman from texas for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. hughes, I want to come to you first. Uh, as you know, I was an air conditioning contractor for 35 years.
▶ 0:46:02So I've been in the small business and I've watched this whole episode of the sear ratings moving up on not only, you know, air conditioning units, but on the gas a-4e settings as well. You said a couple of things. As a small builder, you said, uh, you're concerned about this because this is restrictions on the energy source. And I'll come back in a second. Then you said it was mandates and then you said it affected appliances. Describe for us what you meant by it was restrictions on energy source.
▶ 0:46:33>> well, it's it's getting to be, uh, more of a concern that we're losing those choices. Uh, on on what? Energy and having to change different equipment, different appliances. It's going to add to the cost. And in some cases, they're simply not practical. Some of the new codes, for instance, require ductwork replaced in confined or in heated space, uh, which is not practical on slab homes. >> amen, brother. I've been there. I've been in those homes.
▶ 0:47:03I've watched, uh, what I would call middle america's american citizens in texas when they, you know, you're familiar with seer seasonal energy efficiency ratings on air conditioners. When I got in the business in 81, it was eight. Was it was 8.0 seer. Then they went to nine, then ten, then 12, then 14 and 15. And you watch the price of those units almost double. So now you had a homeowner who instead who's working family.
▶ 0:47:30My bride, a 49 years, was a teacher for 27 years, and I owned american company for 35 years. We watched working families struggling when they lived in a house that was 15, 20 or 25 years old, for them to get all new equipment at the higher seer, ratings might take a complete system change, up from 12,000 to $18,000, and they could well afford the first price, much less the next price.
▶ 0:48:00Even though they had tax incentives on it because they were struggling. Mr. lieberman, I'm going to come to you non-condensing gas furnace, you said in your comments would not be available after 2028. We all know that the a if some of us know that the afue rating on those furnaces go up to 92%, it also requires a change in the venting. You know this, it requires a drip leg and requires all kinds of stuff that normal furnaces don't require, especially in texas.
▶ 0:48:27There's no reason why department of energy or anybody else epa, should be mandating that texans have to have a certain efficiency. You're aware of what afue furnaces are, I trust. And go ahead. >> no two homes are alike. No two homeowners are alike. And we all know our own individualized circumstances and preferences better than any one size fits all regulatory process. And so with the furnace rule that it will take effect in 2028, there are a lot of homes that won't get the furnace that makes the most sense for them.
▶ 0:48:57And as it turns out, it turns to be older, smaller, space constrained, constrained homes owned by generally lower income americans. One size fits all is very much a problem with some of these. >> it really is. And it affects not just lower income, but also middle income to slightly income. I can't tell you the number of times I've been in a house that was 20, 25 years old or older. And I said, sir, ma'am, there's a crack in your heat exchanger and your old furnace.
▶ 0:49:22It's going to have to be changed, but it's also going to have to be an upper afue rated furnace. You need an evaporator coil and a new outside unit. And now instead of a furnace that's choosing number 1800 and $1,900, whatever it is, you're now looking at about 7 or $8000 back in the 80s or 9000, much, much higher than that. And I've had people look me in the eye and say, well, Mr. weber, you say there's a minor crack in the heat exchanger, puts that carbon monoxide. Yes, sir. They said, how dangerous is that?
▶ 0:49:52And I said, well, you know, um, if you're getting enough in your bloodstream, it can kill you. I said, you can go to sleep at night and the next morning wake up dead, which is not a bad way to go if you're ready to go. And they literally would look me in the eye and say, what are the odds? What's the percentage rates that it would actually kill somebody in our family? And I said, well, they're actually pretty low. But when it happens, they're just as dead as they could be. And families can't always afford these mandates.
▶ 0:50:20It's a good idea. I know that we want to take we want less pollution, and we want all this stuff that we want to happen. But we have to take into account that american families can't always afford these good ideas. Um, miss rinaldi, I'm going to come to you. Uh, everything you said sounds good about all the energy savings, but I just laid out a scenario for you where americans can't join. Can really afford all this.
▶ 0:50:49So I'm just going to end my comments, Mr. chairman, by saying it's like the best laid plans of mice and men, and I yield back. >> thank you very much. Chairman. Yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I have three questions of miss saul rinaldi. So I'm going to try to get through the three.
▶ 0:51:15At a time when americans are struggling with everyday prices, the trump administration and congressional republicans have enacted policies that, in my opinion, only result in increased energy prices for american families. So my first question is, with these increased energy costs, can you please talk about the role of energy efficiency in helping households keep monthly energy bills affordable? And what happens if republicans continue to gut efficiency standards, if you will. >> without efficiency standards?
▶ 0:51:46Um, we would then homeowners would buy whatever is cheapest, um, in order to put it in their house. That would likely not include the higher efficiency technologies. Um, and they would be spending more on their monthly utility bills. I think one of the key things is a lot most of the time, we all know when we buy a new appliance, it's because something broke. It's because our air conditioner broke or our dishwasher broke.
▶ 0:52:11And what ends up happening is that that they don't necessarily have thousands of dollars or even hundreds of dollars burning a hole in their bank account, so that homeowner needs to figure out how they're going to serve the needs of their family and the most cost effective way possible. And they'll they will buy what is what it often what is just that standard. And so the what building standards do and what appliance standards do is provide that baseline standard.
▶ 0:52:39So we make sure to protect homeowners from the least efficient appliances and the least efficient codes. So that's why they're just really critical. >> all right thanks. And my second question is I mentioned, uh, this what I said was a factually inaccurate number in my opening statement. I'd like to get your take on it. Republicans claim that meeting the 2021 international energy code can add up to $31,000 to the price of a new home.
▶ 0:53:06But based on my review, this number includes several items that are not even required by the code. So have you seen this number before, and can you confirm that it includes several items that are not required by the code? >> yes, about 80% of that number, uh, is are different. There's many different pathways. Um, both prescriptive and performance in the code. And that number is, um, choosing the more expensive pathways. And I can give you some examples if you'd like.
▶ 0:53:37>> you want to give us an example. >> so, so that for example there's a number of on double wall construction. Um, it leads to $18,000 in that example of that 31,000, that $18,000 is can be led to buy in much cheaper ways, um, through different pathways, which includes single wall and wrapping the house.
▶ 0:53:57There's also $3,000 for the ventilation energy package, which can often be, um, be substituted with a hot water heater, for example, a more efficient hot water heater. So there's different pathways to get to meet the model energy code. And that $31,000 number is is more elevated than one would see in the in the marketplace normally. >> all right. Thank you.
▶ 0:54:21And then my third question is um, um, about catch right here is um, about energy efficiency. Um, and this idea that, um, energy standards help provide clarity and stability to american manufacturers. Can you elaborate on the collaboration that takes place between july and manufacturers as it relates to energy efficiency and energy conservation standards?
▶ 0:54:48How do these standards help american manufacturers compete and avoid being undercut by inefficient farm products, if you will. >> by it is those. And remember when I talked about some of those really potentially cheap products that could flood the market, those would likely be foreign products. And american manufacturers work with the department of energy. They go through the standards. The standards process takes some time. Um, not every single appliance is that is reviewed. It has a new standard.
▶ 0:55:16It has to be cost effective and technologically feasible, and they work with the manufacturers and other other stakeholders to make sure that they are coming up with something that will work for the marketplace and then the manufacturers, that what that does is it helps strengthen the manufacturers to make sure that their the lines of of products they put on the market are from the, from that base standard, and then additional efficiency so that they can not have to be
▶ 0:55:46Competing with foreign manufacturers that might have cheaper, less efficient products on the market. >> all right. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. chairman I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from ohio's 12th, 12th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you all for being here today. Appreciate your time. Um, my first question is to Mr. steffes.
▶ 0:56:10I appreciate you discussing the critical role natural gas plays in maintaining an affordable, reliable and resilient energy mix similar to the service territory of washington gas. The district I represent, ohio's 12th congressional district is in the pjm footprint, and we're currently experiencing a massive increase in the development of new data centers across central ohio.
▶ 0:56:32As we are seeing this historic demand growth due to electrification and the build out of new data centers to support ai, we're also seeing efforts by local and state officials to ban natural gas use. How do how do decisions by local officials to phase out natural gas use, which may seem like local, isolated decisions, negatively impact consumers and consumers in other regions or other states? >> thank you. Congressman.
▶ 0:57:02Um, straightforward question of supply and demand, uh, for the customers that I serve, a lot of their needs is, uh, heating natural gas, heating hot water, cooking. If you mandate, as in our communities, uh, no more natural gas will be used. Those customers are going to find another way to provide heating. They're not going to go without heat. They will use electric heat that will add additional demand to the electricity market.
▶ 0:57:28Uh, while it's very difficult to add supply, additional demand without supply increases, prices agree. >> Mr. lieberman, excuse me, I'd like to get your thoughts on how natural gas bans can impact reliability, reliability and resiliency.
▶ 0:57:47>> well, natural gas takes a good bit of the load that would otherwise have to be, uh, carried by electricity for, uh, residential use, which is what I've looked at, uh, most closely. Uh, and there's a reason people choose natural gas. It's, uh, three and a half times cheaper on a per unit energy basis. And that's from the department of energy. So there's a lot of good reasons for homeowners to choose a natural gas water heater, natural gas furnace, a natural gas stove.
▶ 0:58:15Uh, others who are into cooking swear by the the superiority of gas cooking. But from an energy perspective, gas is, uh, is cheaper and it takes some of the load off of electricity at a time where we're struggling to keep up with, uh, with increasing demand. >> thank you, Mr. lieberman. My next question is directed to Mr. hughes.
▶ 0:58:36In your testimony, you note your concerns with the previous administration's final rule on residential furnaces, which effectively bans non-condensing gas furnaces after 2028. Can you walk us through how this rule would increase costs for consumers, and specifically, how it would disproportionately impact seniors and low income families? Well. >> uh, just the added cost of installation in, uh, in most cases, uh, we're a big proponent, as Mr.
▶ 0:59:05Rinaldi is, to, uh, upfitting existing homes. But in too many cases, uh, condensing units, uh, aren't practical, aren't always practical. So just the added installation cost alone and the added equipment cost, uh, alone is huge. >> thank you. I would do a follow up with you, Mr. hughes. I think many on this committee, myself included, have have deep concerns on that.
▶ 0:59:30The efficiency standards proposed and finalized by the previous administration failed to meet epa's requirement that the standard is economically justified. Do you believe those efficiency standards finalized on home appliances were economically justified or cost effective? Question. And how would some of those appliance standards hurt consumers and new owners?
▶ 0:59:53>> uh, in most cases, we find that they're not cost effective, uh, new appliances to these new standards, I found personally simply don't last as long. Uh, they're more expensive and they simply don't last as long. So that that adds to cost. Also. >> Mr. lieberman and Mr. steffey, would you like to add anything to that? Mr. lieberman, go first.
▶ 1:00:24>> and then. You know. That would be I'd. >> also have there's no downside to. >> that, right. Anyone who wants. And.
▶ 1:00:46Fine appliances in any category that are much more efficient than the standard. But the standard doesn't make sense for everyone. And that's why I think we should go to a more, uh, approach with consumer choice rather than try to. >> thank you. I apologize, Mr. davis, but, Mr. chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:01:15>> the gentleman yields back, and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from virginia's fourth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chairman and ranking member, for holding this very timely hearing. Across the country, 1 in 3 households is forced to cut back on basic necessities just to afford their energy bills. In virginia, families face electricity rate hikes of at least $10 a month.
▶ 1:01:38This is on top of rising grocery prices caused by president trump's reckless tariffs and draconian medicaid cuts that strip health coverage from millions of low income americans. And rather than addressing these problems, the trump administration has frozen or canceled funding for clean energy projects. Even though clean energy consistently delivers cheaper electricity than dirty fossil fuels.
▶ 1:02:03And the republicans, uh, big ugly bill terminating clean energy tax incentives that were already helping homes and businesses save money through energy upgrades and republican leadership used the congressional review act to reverse the biden-harris administration's common sense, energy and energy efficiency standards that have broad public support and save customers money by reducing their individual demand.
▶ 1:02:28In 2020 for doe standards, helped the average american household save over $500 on their utility bills. And in this committee, we often discuss how growing energy demand from manufacturing and data centers and the urgent need to bring more generation online. But energy efficiency is one of the quickest and most cost effective tools.
▶ 1:02:52We have to reduce peak demand to reduce individual demand and therefore lower individual customer bills, lower greenhouse gas emissions, and strengthen grid resiliency and energy security. Now, virginia is home to more than 600,000 veterans, many of whom face unique challenges transitioning to civilian life and finding good paying jobs.
▶ 1:03:16But energy efficiency jobs have provided important opportunities for veterans, who currently make up about 10% of the workforce in this sector alone. For many veterans, energy efficiency jobs offer a meaningful way to leverage their leadership and technical skills while continuing to continuing to contribute to our national security.
▶ 1:03:37So, miss rinaldi, could you discuss how federal energy efficiency policy support workforce development and create career opportunities for veterans and other workers? >> absolutely. Uh, and I'm glad you brought up workforce training. Workforce training is critical right now. Um, in the, uh, built in the building sector, every time we talk with contractors, they always are looking for, um, trained workers.
▶ 1:04:03And the veterans are a big part of where they, they seek to find and bring in new workers to be a part of their teams. Workforce training is critical. Um, and unfortunately, uh, the unobligated funds from the workforce training grants were, um, were taken out in the last in the, uh, the legislation. But, uh, workforce training is critical. We need to have on the job training as well as apprenticeship programs.
▶ 1:04:34We need to be investing in apprenticeship programs and workforce training so that so that these contractors can can go into the homes and be able to understand how to size appropriately the furnaces, how to how much insulation is needed, and how to make sure to make the the most cost effective upgrade for that home, whether that home is is fueled by gas or whether it's electric. We need to make the contractors need to be trained to make sure that they're making the best decisions for those homeowners. >> thank you.
▶ 1:05:03And one of the programs under the bipartisan infrastructure law was a $500 million renew america school program to help public schools lower energy costs and improve indoor air quality, creating healthier learning environments for students and teachers across the country. Um, in the 2024 funding cycle, richmond public schools in my district was one of 16 districts across the country to receive over 15 million to support much needed upgrades at 22 title one schools.
▶ 1:05:33Many of these schools were over 50 and in some cases over 100 years old. So you can imagine how inefficient energy wise they were. But in january, president trump issued executive orders illegally freezing funding for the new america schools. Miss rinaldi, how has the uncertainty created by the trump administration's funding freezes impacted schools and businesses looking to upgrade their facilities?
▶ 1:05:59>> well, I think, um, any of the funding freezes that that we've seen or cancellations has created some uncertainty in the marketplace, particularly when it comes to job creation and hiring, and for contractors who are unsure whether or not certain programs are going to be there to fund those upgrades, they certainly don't want to promise something and go through all the effort to to put together a a school redevelopment or a redevelopment for those non-profits in that program and
▶ 1:06:30Then find out that they don't have the funding there to be able to meet that need. So uncertainty is really hard for in general for the marketplace, particularly for the small business contractors. >> thank you, I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentlelady's time has expired yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia's 12th district. Five minutes for questions. >> thank you, chair, for holding this important hearing to discuss the appliances. And appliance and. >> building policies. I thank the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:06:58Um, during the biden administration, there was a four year assault on consumer choice of appliances, uh, from gas stoves, refrigerators and freezers to washers, dryers, dishwashers and air conditioners. No household appliance was off limits in their pursuit of a radical rush to green agenda. In fact, I tell you, I got more questions in the district, uh, this last august work period.
▶ 1:07:23I mean, people asked me, why is my why is my new air conditioner costing three times what I paid for it ten years ago? Uh, because of this new gas and this, you know, these, you know, I thought technology was supposed to lower prices. And that's the comments I got. And, uh, but it's really it's a real problem for our consumers.
▶ 1:07:43Um, and of course, that's why I'm proud that I to introduce the bill, don't mess with my home appliances act, which implements necessary reforms to the energy policy and conservation to prevent future administrations from issuing burdensome standards on household appliances that would drive costs and reduce available availability. And like I said, I don't know where we're getting these numbers about all this money we're saving. But like I said, the the the costs are enormous.
▶ 1:08:11Uh, in fact, I had to do something I never thought I'd do in my lifetime was standing on the house floor and defend my wife's gas stove. And we won that battle. She got to keep it. So, uh, but, uh, again, what's important is to preserve consumer choice and maintain a diverse energy mix. Mr.
▶ 1:08:36Lieberman, you mentioned in your testimony the issues with epca and how costly it can be to implement new appliance regulations. You have an average of how much the biden department of energy's rules on some appliances cost consumers. >> well, you mentioned air conditioners. Central air conditioners are in the very unfortunate position that they're hit with department of energy and environmental protections. The environmental protection agency regulation. And it's that one two punch that's really done.
▶ 1:09:05A number on appliances, a, uh, doe rule that predates the biden administration but took effect in 2023, uh, raised the cost of home air conditioners. And then a biden epa rule that took effect for manufactured equipment after january 1st of this year has really done a number on appliance affordability, especially air conditioners.
▶ 1:09:28And, uh, I've talked to air conditioner installers who say that that epa rule alone added $1,500 on top of the other regulations. So it's definitely a cumulative effect. And a number of these regulations were from the biden administration, but a number of them predate the biden administration as well. >> well, another problem is some of the stuff doesn't work. I mean, the washing machines, I'm told, don't you gotta wash your clothes multiple times?
▶ 1:09:55Uh, I mean, we had one lady that wrote in here and said she had to put more water in a washing machine to get her clothes clean, had to drag the water hose in there and put it in the washer. I mean, you can't believe this stuff. Uh, you mentioned my bill. The don't mess with my home appliances act to reform epa. How would this bill help with ensuring consumer choice and lower cost of appliances? >> well, I think it would reinstate some safeguards against excessive future regulations. That's very useful.
▶ 1:10:26It would also have this look back provision so we can we can revisit past regulations, have a notice and comment rulemaking where those who think the appliance standard was just fine can say so. But those who think there have been problems can say so.
▶ 1:10:39Uh, and we can we can revisit some of these past standards, maybe even, uh, make them less stringent if it's efficiency that comes at a cost of, uh, of choice performance, features, reliability and longevity. >> it's called common sense or street smarts, whatever you want to. >> call. >> it, to do the right thing. >> uh, Mr. uh, steps. Is that correct?
▶ 1:11:07Uh, part of my bill that don't mess with my appliance act prohibits the secretary of energy from banning products based on a type of fuel source, most notably natural gas. Natural gas traditionally uses less energy. So can you share how banning natural gas appliances and natural gas, such as my wife's gas stove as a fuel source in building, would strain the grid and raise energy cost? >> thank you congressman. Um, absolutely.
▶ 1:11:34The driving gas out of homes will raise or will increase electricity demand because people will still want to cook. They'll still want heat. That will only increase demand in a tight supply market. And the prices are going to go up from there. Right. >> well, I'm out of time. Mr. hughes, I had a question for you. I'll, I'll for the record, I'll get that to you. But obviously we have a huge housing shortage in this country and affordability is a big issue. And we got to solve that problem for the american people. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 1:12:05>> Mr. gentleman's time has expired yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from california's 15th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. And thank you to our witnesses, uh, for your testimony today. As we know, affordability is a huge challenge. While the majority has passed one big, beautiful bill, their policies have increased energy bills by hundreds of dollars a year for families across america.
▶ 1:12:32This is on top of higher costs at the grocery store and diminishing coverage at the doctor's office. Instead of dealing with this affordability crisis, the president has mandated that outdated coal plants keep running, which will cost ratepayers billions of dollars a year. Republicans have proposed bill after bill to roll back efficiency standards, which would only lock in higher costs for families.
▶ 1:12:55Americans are being squeezed on many fronts and for utility bills, they simply have to eat the cost or turn out the lights. For renters, this issue is especially urgent because while they pay their own energy bills, they don't have control over whether their homes and appliances are energy efficient. So, Mr. rinaldi, can you explain how strong appliance standards and building codes protect renters and homeowners from higher monthly bills? >> absolutely. And you're correct.
▶ 1:13:23That split incentive is critical for the the third of the country that rents and, um, that one of the key issues that, um, that appliance standards can do is that a typical household has saved 700, 500, $576 per house per year as a result of applying and equipment standards.
▶ 1:13:46So once they once these purchases are made by the landlord for the rent for the renter, those energy savings are recouped by the renter. So by setting a standard as the the lowest cost that a landlord can put into a home or apartment is is critical and homeowners get get the same. They they purchase the apply the appliance with with some potentially an upfront cost potentially not. I think the cost of appliances aren't necessarily weighed directly against standards.
▶ 1:14:18There's also inflation. There's also the cost of the installation. And so there's many things that go into the cost of um, of installing a new unit. Um, and why those costs might go up. But the but the appliance standards and the building standards are just setting a baseline to make sure that we are protecting our homeowners and our renters from, from, uh, from appliances that are are really wasteful. >> thank you for that.
▶ 1:14:42I'd also like to take a moment to talk about the impact of housing codes on resilience to extreme weather for both buildings and the electric grid, according to a fema report from the first trump administration. Communities with modern building codes avoid 32 billion with a b in disaster losses over 20 years compared to places without them.
▶ 1:15:03That's why I introduced my weatherization resilience and adaptation program, or rap act, to help low income families harden their homes against natural hazards. We also know that more energy efficient homes and appliances will reduce strain on the grid by lowering demand during heat waves and cold snap. So again, Mr.
▶ 1:15:23Rinaldi, beyond lowering bills, can you speak to how stronger codes and home hardening investments work together to reduce our disaster losses? >> well, one important piece that you noted is that, um, when you upgrade the efficiency of a home, it also means that they can it can with that insulation helps that home withstand, um, heat or the loss of if it's during a heat wave, they can withstand the energy, um, air conditioning.
▶ 1:15:51It can hold in the the air conditioning. It can hold in the heat. Um, if they've lost power, uh, during if it's if it's cold out. So it makes the home itself act a bit like a cooler rather than a paper bag. And it so that you can. So the home itself helps the helps maintain the temperatures within it, even if there's a loss of power. So that is that's one of the key ways that it helps. There's also just in general the homes are built with um sturdier.
▶ 1:16:20And those sturdier homes are able to withstand some of the more extreme weather events that we've been seeing. >> appreciate that very much. Thank you all for your testimony, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas 11th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, and I want to get to the heart. Mr. hughes, I'll start with you.
▶ 1:16:48I want to get to the heart of, uh, efficiency is good, and it's happening and things. And there's lots of different industries that are making things more efficient. Um, but I don't need in west texas to be hurricane proof. Um, because we don't have hurricanes in west texas. And I think the as we consider different things that are mandated, we want to make sure that we're not overreaching, which is exactly what has happened in the last four years. And we're trying to swim out of that, that mess.
▶ 1:17:16Um, housing prices are obviously they're very expensive right now. We have lower numbers of first time home buyers. And I'd like to hear your thoughts as you've you as you've kind of mentioned already today on the additional, uh, federal appliance code mandates that have impacted the affordability of homes. Um, and just broad thoughts on how to tackle it, to make sure we do gain efficiency, but we don't overreach. >> uh, absolutely. As has been mentioned several times, it's not a one size fits all.
▶ 1:17:46And you're right, you don't have hurricanes in texas. But we do in north carolina. It should be left up to individual states and local governments, uh, to tailor those codes to those areas. Uh, as far as the cost of the more regulations we pile on, uh, the more it drives that cost up. We feel like that the the homes that we've built in the last 20 years perform very well. We feel like we've reached a good base.
▶ 1:18:13And continuing to pile on, uh, is simply not cost effective. You're not going to recover that extra funds. We are a big advocate for upfitting existing homes, and we feel like that's where a lot more good can be done. Now, as far as how that increases resiliency, uh, unfortunately, that's not quite as easy. But, uh, I can assure you, in north carolina, we're constantly looking for ways to be more resilient.
▶ 1:18:43And there are a lot of great innovative products out there that increase resiliency. And luckily today, a lot of those products also increase efficiency, right? Unfortunately, they all cost more. >> well, we have to be careful about what we mandate and how that affects, uh, the one size fits all, I hope I hope that this committee is listening to that. Mr. steffens, I'll go to you.
▶ 1:19:06Um, you testified that 20% of changing subjects completely, but 20% of washington's gas service goes to federal facilities, including buildings like the white house and the pentagon. And what risks do you see of section 433 for, uh, if section 433 forces those facilities to abandon natural gas in favor of an all electric mandate. >> uh, a few risks there. Congressman, thank you for the question.
▶ 1:19:30First, um, the risk that I see is, is because energy security, uh, in multiple redundant, uh, networks to deliver energy is critical. I see a risk to national security. Our ability, the country's ability to continue to operate when storms come through, when matters that are critical to citizens are dealt with. I also see a fundamental question and challenge around affordability.
▶ 1:19:54Um, as federal office buildings are mandated to move down one path and only one path, clearly they're going to spend more money, uh, when when they could otherwise use a different technology and solution. We trust strongly that the federal government, the people that run the buildings that operate these facilities, will make the right choices for affordability, for reliability, for security, uh, as well as for safety. >> Mr. hughes, I'll go back to you. Forced electrification.
▶ 1:20:25You testified that the cost could be as much as 40% more. So in the same way that we're asking federal buildings whether they want forced electrification, what do you, uh. What's your opinion on that with houses? >> well, again, it's all about the cost. It's going to drive up cost as we have to change appliances, uh, to meet those regulations. Uh, the cost of the appliance, uh, and the installation, uh, it's all about the cost. And again, the point's been made.
▶ 1:20:51The best plan in the world isn't worth anything if the homeowner, if the home buyer can't afford it. >> um, finally, Mr. lieberman, uh, cost question. Uh, you note in your testimony that doe rules could add hundreds of dollars to the cost of furnaces and water heaters. And what kind of effect is that going to create for first time homebuyers? Sure. >> it adds to the cost of that first time home. I should say that the water heaters rule.
▶ 1:21:19It actually impacts, uh, existing homes a little bit more than, than new homes, because most of those are built with the condensing furnaces. Um, but, uh, but again, there's a cost for existing homeowners, but there's also a cost for new homeowners. I think the biggest single appliance affecting new homes is central air conditioners, which have become very, very expensive because of this one two punch of department of energy and environmental protection agency regulations. But almost every room in the house has something that that that's going up in price and it adds up.
▶ 1:21:50>> thank you. I appreciate the testimony. Yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from colorado's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you so much, Mr. chairman. Mr. chairman, um, I'm always happy to talk about overburdensome government regulation because, unbelievably, maybe to republicans, I'm opposed to that, too. I think that government regulation should be lean and mean, and I think it should help consumers.
▶ 1:22:19Nonetheless, I was really perplexed because my colleagues on the other side of the aisle seem to think that all of these efficiency standards they're talking about are actually going to hurt consumers rather than save them money in the long run.
▶ 1:22:36And so I was I was ruminating about what the republican geordi's been doing yesterday, um, to slash things because they don't comport with their drill baby drill agenda, which will actually hurt consumers. And I just give a couple of examples from the big bad bill. One, they slashed the energy efficient commercial buildings deduction to assist with the installation of energy efficiency appliances in commercial buildings.
▶ 1:23:05So this was money that was going to help people install these appliances so they could save money in the long run. Gone. They terminated the energy efficiency home improvement tax credit. This tax credit helped over 2.3 million americans make their buildings more resilient and efficient, and saved an average of $130 a year in energy costs. Um, and that's all gone now.
▶ 1:23:32So those people, they can't save that money now because we're not helping them. Just last week, my republican colleagues voted to cut doe's energy efficiency and renewable energy program by half in my home state of colorado. That would eliminate our funding for the weatherization assistance program by a third, as just one example. So so in other words, you're you're making these houses and commercial buildings more efficient so people will save money.
▶ 1:24:01But my colleagues don't like that. So, miss rinaldi, I want to ask you a couple of questions about the impact of cutting energy efficiency standards, because in my opinion, these standards create healthier, more comfortable indoor spaces. And in fact, they help with health issues, respiratory issues and, and, uh, and preventing chronic diseases like cancer, lower respiratory disease and other things.
▶ 1:24:31So let me ask you, poor indoor air quality leads to more asthma incidences, causes colds, allergies, headaches, fatigue and negatively impacts our mental health. Is that what studies show? >> yes, that is exactly what studies show. >> okay, so given that we spend 90% of our time indoors, wouldn't it stand to reason that health issues caused by poor indoor air quality would lead to an increase in health care costs? >> yes, yes. >> um, so, Mr.
▶ 1:25:00Chairman, I have here a study and it's from ul solutions, which concludes that negative health effects triggered by poor indoor environmental quality make up nearly 14% of health care costs. I asked unanimous consent to put that in the record. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you. Now, miss rinaldi.
▶ 1:25:21Efficiency standards not only mitigate health risks, but modern building codes protect us during natural disasters by making our buildings more resilient. Is that right? >> yes. >> now, are you aware of the study that fema concluded where they said that every dollar spent on building code adoption saves $11 in disaster repair and recovery expenses? >> yes, I am.
▶ 1:25:48>> um, so in an area like my home state of colorado, which is facing our worst fire year since 2020, energy efficiency standards and weatherization, uh, programs have reduced energy bills by nearly 25%. Are you aware of that? >> yes, that makes sense. >> okay. Um. And so.
▶ 1:26:08So I guess the way I feel is if you really want to reduce the burdensome effect of the federal government's actions, then help people to make their homes and businesses more resilient and also more healthy so that they can save money and so that they can have better health outcomes. So with that, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentlelady yields back the balance of her time.
▶ 1:26:33The chair now recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, the chairman of the full committee for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. I appreciate, um, this hearing. Appreciate being here. And, Mr. stevens, you know, some of the argument has been that we're you put in regulations that drive the price of products, of energy, of housing up, and then you have a bill to subsidize it. When you take away the subsidies, you're increasing the price of everything.
▶ 1:26:59Well, the problem really is, is, is making things affordable in the first place. So you don't have to subsidize it, because it seems like we just dismiss when you subsidize something, somebody is paying for it. And so that's what we need. We need to recognize. And so, Mr. steffes, and in your testimony, you discussed state level, um, actions, including maryland's building energy performance standards and the lack of consideration given to whether the grid can handle increased demand from electrification.
▶ 1:27:25What kind of price increases can pjm customers expect as performance standards and other gas restrictions take effect? >> thank you. Chairman. You know, as I said in my testimony, um, we've already seen almost 1,000% increase in capacity prices in pjm if we continually restrict natural gas use at the site and buildings and homes, all that's going to do is to drive electricity. Um, and how do we make electricity in pjm today?
▶ 1:27:55Well, if you look at pjm, we make it primarily with natural gas and some coal and nuclear. The idea that we're going to then just push the gas back down the power wire and use it in a less efficient manner than you would use it at home, is absolutely going to raise prices. I'll give you another example. Uh, in baltimore over the last five years, electricity customers have seen a $1,000 a year, uh, bill increase that we've in our maryland customers, we've seen $100.
▶ 1:28:23Natural gas is much more affordable than electricity delivered. And we need to be thinking about that as we restrict people's use of natural gas. >> and so I know our friends in europe are begging us to export more liquid natural gas. Uh, it is natural security. If you're pro ukraine, you want to ship natural gas to europe because that is, uh, which I am. And so that that by the fact that they're buying natural gas from russia, funds russia to go attack ukraine.
▶ 1:28:49I just talked with our japanese and korean allies, and they want us to unleash our natural gas out of out of alaska, which helps them in their competition with china. So it's it's also world strategic thing. But people will say, well, prices are like you're saying in electric prices are going up in places like maryland. Therefore we need not export natural gas. I've heard that argument actually, in the problem with electric prices isn't the existence of natural gas. It's the ability to use it. Correct? >> correct.
▶ 1:29:19>> so I just want to make sure that, uh, and then, um, also so Mr. hughes in the, in the inflation reduction act or so called, if we're going to call it, they're going to use our bill, I'll use their so-called inflation reduction act. Um, it included provisions to pressure state and localities to adopt burdensome building codes and performance standards that negatively impact potential home buyers. Even in california. They paused some of these codes, and you seen some books, the books of abundance or something coming up about how these regulations are. I haven't read that book, but I've heard it about it. So, Mr.
▶ 1:29:47Hughes, what kind of flexibility do state and localities need when implementing building codes? >> well, as we continue to say, it's not a one size fits all. Every state needs to do their own thing. Uh, as was mentioned earlier, uh, not every state has hurricanes. Uh, we do. So you have to be you have to have that flexibility. And and above all, maintaining consumer choice. It comes right down to it.
▶ 1:30:16Uh, again, no matter what the plan is, if consumers can't afford it, what good have we done? >> so how do we balance. So I think as a as a federal government, a lot of times we have these, um, tragedies. Fema comes in and helps the people want their federal government to come help. And it does. And so there is some federal interest to making sure people don't build flimsy buildings in a, in an earthquake area or buildings that are that can't withstand a right on the water in florida. They can't withstand a hurricane wind.
▶ 1:30:44And so how do we balance locals making their decisions? But the federal government know a lot of times we foot the bill. We want to make sure. So I guess what I'm saying is that all regulations aren't bad. How do we know that we get the right level of regulation between state and federal? >> well, we feel like we're there. Uh, again, the houses, the homes that we've built in the last 20 years perform very well. You can ride up some of the valleys, creeks and and valleys. >> I guess I'm about out of time, but so what?
▶ 1:31:14What is being added to that? You think you're there. So what is being added to that? You think we need to not do? >> well, you name it. Extra, uh, energy requirements. Uh, and and the resiliency is there. Some places require more. But again that flexibility we on our coastal areas we need uh, you know, we need better windows and doors, but we don't necessarily need it in my piedmont area. So you have to maintain that that flexibility and affordability.
▶ 1:31:44>> I just want to go back that, that, that all things aren't bad. They need to be correct. And we need to make sure they're in the right level. So thank you. And I yield back. Mr. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, chairman, and I appreciate this us having this hearing today. You know in talking about buying era policies, the republicans have control of this chamber. They have control of the senate and they have republican present. Yet they want to cast the blame.
▶ 1:32:13The affordability challenge on the prior administration, instead of taking accountability for their lack of action to drive down the cost of so many of our families are burdened with. In addition, republicans like to claim their focus is congress is on eliminating waste across the government. This was their justification for taking health care away from 15 million americans and making the largest cut to snap in the program's history. Now, folks on this side of the aisle voted against that, but that was their framing of the conversation, right?
▶ 1:32:41There's waste that we need to go cut out and their way to do so. Taking health care away from 15 million people. As we all know, the opposite of waste is efficiency. This administration set up the department of government efficiency. That sounds like a good idea, right? Most of us would agree in that type of efficiency. What they really did was just fire riff, uh, remove higher back career government officials who have done so much incredible work for our country, um, and created no efficiency in the process.
▶ 1:33:09But let me ask all of our witnesses today, as a general matter, is efficiency good or bad? You give me a thumbs up or thumbs down. Good. Okay. I think that's interesting. We'll come back. Good, good. Great. But as we've already heard this afternoon, as we've already seen, this congress, republicans and the trump administration seem to take issue with efficiency when it comes to energy.
▶ 1:33:32This may, republicans pass and president trump signed multiple pieces of legislation that repealed biden era department of energy efficiency standards. Mr. rinaldi, with respect to waste, wouldn't inefficient household appliances actually contribute to a waste of energy? >> yes. Inefficient appliances do contribute to waste. >> waste bad efficiency. Good. Makes sense.
▶ 1:34:00So if more people use energy efficient products, would that lead to lowering energy costs for american families? >> yes. >> yeah. Right. And if more people use energy efficient products, wouldn't that relieve some of the burden that we're putting on our energy grid? >> it does. >> seem so simple. Energy prices are dramatically increasing across the country, and our constituents are footing the bill. In my home state of new jersey, my constituents energy energy bills rose by 20% this summer.
▶ 1:34:28Pjm and others are blaming these price hikes on increased demand due to the rapid deployment of data centers and increased ai adoption, which, as we all know, consumes a significant amount of energy. Mr. rinaldi, your testimony points out that data centers accounted for roughly 4.4% of electricity use in 2023, but they're projected to grow to an account to account up to 12% of energy use over the next three years.
▶ 1:34:52Question are you aware of any rules or actions being taken by the trump administration or house republicans to keep the costs associated with these data centers from being shifted to households? >> I'm not aware of anything specific. >> yeah, because I'm on this subcommittee. We've not had we've had tons of I hearings, but not one about the energy that goes into powering I, which are consumers. And when I say consumers, I mean our constituents are footing the bill of.
▶ 1:35:20And so it seems to me that that is a big challenge that we have to face, which we don't actually want to face here. We just want to look backwards to the biden administration and blame them for their policies instead of taking accountability and the work that remains ahead. Shifting a little bit, a question for all witnesses do we need more energy production, just yes or no? >> yes.
▶ 1:35:44>> great, I agree, but instead, president trump and republicans in congress have consistently made policy choices to inhibit our ability to quickly bring new energy sources online in order to prop up fossil fuels, including by gutting the infrastructure investment and jobs act and the inflation reduction act, and imposing tariffs that will dramatically increase the cost of equipment necessary to build out energy. Project. Just quickly. Have tariffs been good for home building or bad for home building?
▶ 1:36:11It's not been good so far, has it? Yeah pretty bad. So they've completely abandoned renewables such as solar and wind. So much that they refuse in this committee to use the word renewable when we're talking about energy. And this administration does not allow administration officials to acknowledge an all of the above strategy when it comes to energy production. We've had witnesses here who say we need more energy.
▶ 1:36:36We're seeing the increased demand in ai data centers, but we're going to cut off the country's supply because we don't believe in offshore wind or solar, despite the fact that in texas, not a blue state, 30% of their energy production has come from the word renewable energy. And that's why consumers in texas are paying lower prices for their electricity, instead of making that a national profile that we can do, they want to take us in opposite direction. They have failed on accountability. They're failing every single day.
▶ 1:37:05And it's a travesty that the american people are literally paying for I yield back. >> the gentleman's time has expired, and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from tennessee's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, mister chairman. Um, thank you all for being here with your testimony. And you mentioned how states and localities have used building codes to go around epa state preemption and to mandate de facto gas bans and appliance standards. And I guess I'll start with you, Mr.
▶ 1:37:34Hughes, since I can understand your accent. Okay. And I know that all over the country there's been a housing shortage, especially in places like california and new york and even in tennessee in particular. They struggle to increase their housing supply. If we don't have enough rooftops, we can't fill the jobs that we have. Um, what are your members say is the single largest cost to build a new home? >> um, and for the record, everyone else has an accent. Um.
▶ 1:38:06>> yeah, totally. >> what is the single biggest cost addition right now? Is that what you're saying? Uh, wow. It varies in different areas on the west coast. It's got to be impact fees. Um, for us, uh, labor is a big factor. Some areas, it's lots. Um, so the list goes on and on, and it varies from one state and one region to the other. Yeah. Again, the reason we don't need a one size fits all.
▶ 1:38:36>> correct. Thank you sir. Uh, Mr. steffes, uh, in tennessee, homes that use gas for heating save around $449 annually when compared to an all electric home. And tennessee's been a leader when it comes to energy choice, and has enacted laws to ensure customers make the decision about what's right for them. Uh, as a regulated utility, can you explain how these gas bans impact the service washington gas provides to its customers?
▶ 1:39:07>> thank you. Congressman, uh, I would just say this. Our customers tell us every day, um, either current customers that want to ensure affordable, future, reliable future, or developers and builders who are trying to build in this region that they want to have the choice of natural gas because they understand as you, as, uh, residents of tennessee realize that it is more affordable option. So we're hearing that every day from our customers. >> yeah.
▶ 1:39:34Uh, can you explain why washington gas uses demand side management and utility programs to incentivize energy efficiency and grid resilience? >> sure. Um, one of the things that, you know, uh, washington gas does, we do we believe strongly in energy efficiency.
▶ 1:39:51Um, we work with our customers in virginia and maryland so that they can bring more efficient products into their homes as they choose to do that, because ultimately they want we want them to use the amount of energy they think is appropriate in the way they want to use it. >> yeah. Yes, sir. Mr. lieberman, uh, for american manufacturers that build here, they must make significant investments to comply with epa. We can consider epa reform.
▶ 1:40:19How do we ensure doe cannot change or reverse standards that would allow foreign manufacturers to flood the market, hurting our domestic industry and putting U.S. jobs at risk? >> well, I do have to say that my sympathies are more with consumers, homeowners than with manufacturers, and especially unsympathetic when manufacturers actually lobbied for these standards, as is the case in a few instances. As with air conditioners, for example.
▶ 1:40:47Um, this gave air conditioner manufacturers a captive market for more expensive equipment, so I don't have a lot of sympathy there. I think it is true that, you know, if we revisit any standards we might want to consider, you know, a glide path, not not abruptly ending things because manufacturers have made the transition. And that is something that, uh, that should be taken into account if we make changes to these standards. But again, the my sympathies are with the consumer, not the manufacturer.
▶ 1:41:15>> um, whenever doe decides to make a change to its energy efficiency standards, the ruling must be economically justified. In your opinion, sir. And this is Mr. lieberman. Do you think epa's current seven factor test that guides the doe's economic justification needs change? And if you do, why? >> I think there are some factors that just don't get included enough. Some of these new standards and Mr. hughes can attest, has made installation costs higher.
▶ 1:41:42And that's something that doe doesn't usually factor in sufficiently. We've also heard more and more, um, you know, every one of these standards comes with a very optimistic analysis. When it's finalized by the department of energy. High benefits, low cost, but then reality kicks in in a few hours later, a few years later, I should say, we we see that that that that the reality wasn't so rosy. One of the things we see is impacts on product reliability also impacts on on product lifetime.
▶ 1:42:11So there's some aspects to uh, to, uh, affordability that aren't fully taken into account. And so I think that we could do or doe could do a better job of taking those into account and considering not regulating. There's no there's no requirement to regulate. In fact, you're required to not regulate if, if, uh, if doing so is not economically justified. >> okay. Thank you, sir. And Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman's time has expired.
▶ 1:42:38The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from california, seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. And I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. When donald trump ran for president, he promised the american people he would cut their energy bills in half. But the reality is very different. Since donald trump took office, electricity rates have gone up by 10% and families are feeling it every single day.
▶ 1:43:06The latest inflation report makes clear, is not slowing down. Electricity prices are rising twice as fast as the cost of other household goods. Household goods and why? Because president trump is making deliberate choices that drives costs higher. Trump is slapping new tariffs on energy inputs. He's doing everything he can to wage war on clean energy across the country.
▶ 1:43:34And congressional republicans just repealed the tax credits that were reducing the cost of new energy products or projects. It's not rocket science. If you reduce the supply of energy is going to cost more. And that's what trump and congressional republicans are doing right now. And now republicans are on a crusade to make everything in our lives less efficient if they have their way, people's energy bills will skyrocket even faster.
▶ 1:44:02Energy efficiency is one of the best ways americans can lower their electricity bills. Miss raul ruiz rinaldi, can you give us a brief breakdown on the energy use and the average american home? Well. >> homes make up approximately 20% of our nation's energy consumption. And, uh, and so the primarily primarily in each house, it's the systems.
▶ 1:44:29So that's the heating and cooling makes up the majority of that. >> mhm. Okay I understand the heating and cooling is probably 50%. Is that right. >> at least. Yeah. It depends on how well-insulated the house is. >> and water about 15%. Right. Okay. So if the average american family wants to reduce their energy use and save money on their utility bills, what would you recommend? >> first usually recommends an energy audit. Having a professional come review the house.
▶ 1:44:57Make sure that their air conditioner is sized properly. Make sure they have the right amount of insulation. Um, and make sure that they are taking advantage of all of the low hanging fruit for for energy efficiency. Then usually since nine out of ten homes are under insulated, probably energy efficiency and insulation would be what they would need to do. And then after that, make sure that their systems are, um, are the most efficient possible to make sure that those big system costs are reduced. >> okay. Now savings from efficiency can really add up.
▶ 1:45:28But some of the republican witnesses here today have raised concerns about the upfront costs of energy efficiency homes. I find this incredibly cynical. Democrats inflation reduction act expanded tax credits that reduce the upfront cost of energy efficient homes. But republicans just repeal those tax credits and the big ugly bill. In fact, just two months ago, every republican on this committee voted to kill those tax credits. Mr.
▶ 1:45:55Rinaldi, can you explain what those tax credits were and how the repeal of those credits credits will increase costs for americans? >> yes. The 25 energy efficiency home improvement tax credits that were repealed, they are they're available until the end of this year.
▶ 1:46:13But but starting in january, homeowners will no longer be able to take credits for gas and electric heat pumps, heat pump, water heaters, insulation, doors, windows and, um, 2.3 million americans claim the 25 tax credit um receiving over $2 billion back in tax credits, and the average tax credit was $882 per house. So that was pretty significant for many homeowners. >> it is now.
▶ 1:46:40It's really a shame, because an energy efficient home can be a life changing. Our public utility and sacramento smud helps to retrofit customers homes with the latest efficient appliances and hvac systems. Last fall, I had the privilege to visit with a constituent who had received an energy efficiency makeover. She was absolutely thrilled because sacramento summers can get quite hot, sometimes sweltering.
▶ 1:47:10But a new hvac means her home stays cool without breaking the bank. She was really very happy because, you know, she had to pay for food and everything else and try to look to see where she can find savings. But, you know, her house is cool and she didn't have to pay those bills. Um, the benefits of efficiency extend beyond our homes. This committee has already held five hearings this year on how to meet rising energy demand. While energy efficiency is one of the most cost effective ways to solve this problem.
▶ 1:47:40And I look I see I'm running out of time. So I will follow up with the questions later on. Thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> well, thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from iowa's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman and ranking member castor. And for holding this important hearing on building an appliance standards.
▶ 1:48:03Iowa's iowans value their freedom to choose whether that's appliances in their homes, the energy that powers them or how they build their communities. Today, we're addressing fundamental concerns about government overreach, threatening consumer choice, energy choice and affordability. I was proud to sponsor h.r. 7637, the refrigerator freedom act, which passed, that passed the house of congress.
▶ 1:48:26I wish I would have sponsored the washing machine refrigerator act because this saturday my washing machine went out and I'm currently shopping for a new one. Iowa follows 2009 I standards, with amendments equivalent to the 2012 standards. This balanced approach works for both our environment and citizens pocketbooks. Yet pressure mounts to adopt standards that could add tens of thousands of dollars to home prices, pricing out young families and seniors.
▶ 1:48:55Iowans need freedom to make choices that work for their families, not washington mandates. They need flexibility to choose reliable, affordable, and abundant energy options that work for their lifestyles. Mr. steffes, I've heard from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle that in their states, their energy prices are going up. And is this because of increasing demand for energy, or is this because policies in the past six months that have not even yet gone into effect?
▶ 1:49:24>> um, energy prices have been going up for some time. Um, as I said, in baltimore for the last five years, we've seen electricity prices go up. Um, american consumers are demanding additional energy. >> is increasing energy supply. Would that help to lower prices? >> uh, additional supply, all things equal would lower prices. >> thank you, Mr. rinaldi. I noticed that when the question was asked if whether we need increased power, you were equivocal on whether or not we need increased power.
▶ 1:49:53Increased energy. So is it your assertion that merely having more energy efficient appliances, which also cost more money, um, that that will meet the demand that we need for energy? >> I was equivocal just because it was related to data centers, which will take more time to build power. It was just more of a time. >> I just want to know, do you think that more energy efficient appliances will meet the demands for increased energy that we have? Yes or no? >> not only no. >> no, they will not. Thank you.
▶ 1:50:23So I would say yes, we need more energy. Uh, Mr. hughes home innovation research labs found in 2021, icc compliance costs range from 9600 to 21,000, above the 2009 baseline. Since iowa still uses the 2009 standards, giving the rising energy demands that we've talked about, could these costs balloon to and how would this extend payback periods for iowa families? >> well, there's no there's no limit to where it can go.
▶ 1:50:52Uh, if we don't check, uh, and again, it's about choice. Uh, it's about appliance choice. And, uh, I hate to keep saying cost, but regardless of the plan or regardless of the great things that are out there, we still have to keep them affordable. As I said earlier, 75% of average homes today still can't afford a new home.
▶ 1:51:22So why continue to pile on cost on top of that, if you which. >> makes it further unaffordable? Mr. rinaldi, what's the environmental impact of replacing, um, an appliance, especially a computerized appliance, every 6 to 8 years? As I told you, I'm looking for washing machines right now. My current washing machine. Front loaded, energy efficient, water efficient has lasted over 20 years. And as I'm shopping, I'm told these new energy efficient appliances that you want mandated, uh, that they're going to last 6 to 8 years.
▶ 1:51:50So what's the environmental impact of replacing an appliance and the cost to families replacing it every six years instead of every ten or more years? >> the environmental impact of recycling the appliance, is that what the question.
▶ 1:52:06>> of having to replace a appliance in a shorter duration, because they're less reliable and they're less durable, do you think there's an environmental impact, an impact to the landfill, an impact to computerized critical element devices that are in appliances that are being mandated when they last a shorter time? >> I'm afraid I don't have the answer to the impact of the landfill. >> I would I would suggest that if that's the policy that you want to see, that you ought to know the environmental impact.
▶ 1:52:33If you're doing this in order to have an environmental, uh, safety protocol and more energy efficiency. Um, Mr. hughes, as a us army veteran, I'm deeply concerned about our military families. The 2023 omb report documented severe quality issues in military housing, mold, lead paint, structural problems. Section 433 would require massive capital investments to electrify all federal buildings, including military housing, by 2030.
▶ 1:52:58Given that privatized housing companies have already are already struggling financially and military families are dealing with substandard conditions, shouldn't we prioritize fixing existing health and safety hazards before forcing expensive energy transitions that could divert resources from basic maintenance? >> and the gentlelady's time has expired. If you could you answer a yes or no? Or you could also respond to in writing. >> uh. >> well, yes, but we were responding. >> right. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:53:28>> thank you very much I yield back. >> thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas is 33rd district for five minutes for questions. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chairman. I don't know how we got here. I'm really concerned. Um, you think about some of the great appliances that we have. We invented the washing machine in america. We invented the dishwasher in america, we invented the microwave in america. And we're arguing.
▶ 1:53:54And it almost sounds like we're ceding the opportunity to be the leaders and innovating and creating new products for the next wave of innovation and technology in america. And that we're just going to let we're going to let the europeans beat us at it. Are we going to let the chinese communist party beat us at it? Like, I think that this is crazy, that we're kind of having these arguments.
▶ 1:54:22We know that we want to be the leaders, and we want people to buy american appliances, and that we want to be the innovators in these new technologies, energy efficient, energy efficient technologies, and that we're going to have to find, uh, energy. As the country continues to grow and more and more the world gets online. And the 1970s and a move towards american energy independence, we passed a energy policy and conservation act that established a federal program of test procedures, labeling and energy targets.
▶ 1:54:54And we continue to lead. But I don't want to cede in that area. That's that's one of the reasons why I was proud to be a co-sponsor of the energy efficiency and conservation block grant program, because this program provides communities with resources to help people lower bills, so we don't have to worry as much as we're going to have to worry anyway with all the energy that we're going to need to continue to power, uh, america.
▶ 1:55:19And the cbg program represents the largest nationwide direct investment in energy efficiency and cleaner energy technologies, uh, at the community level in us history. And so I want to be clear, the energy efficiency and conservation grant program was first authorized under the bush administration. A texan under the bush administration, uh, the energy independence and security act of 2007. And there were 95 republicans. And I bet you there were a lot of texas republicans.
▶ 1:55:49I wasn't in congress at the time, but I bet there were a lot of texas republicans that supported president bush on that. Uh, and there was a time when reducing costs for consumers and creating regulatory certainty and supporting american innovation was a shared priority, because, again, we don't want the chinese beating us at this stuff. We want to be the leaders in this stuff. And so I just want to ask miss rinaldi, energy efficiency already supports 2.3 million jobs nationwide, many of them in small businesses.
▶ 1:56:18Can you speak to how stronger efficiency standards and building codes translate into local job creation and economic development, and how we can continue to be the leaders in this area and not the chinese? >> thank you. Um, yes. And energy efficiency has historically been a very energy efficient, a bipartisan issue.
▶ 1:56:44And, um, yes, jobs are what are your local contractor is not is not, uh, going to be found overseas. Um, nor is there a job going to be shipped overseas. So local contractors are the part of our neighborhoods. They're part of our communities. And and when they grow their small businesses, they grow from their communities.
▶ 1:57:05So and the state energy office funding that funds so much work in training in communities are part of how we explore additional jobs in our communities because we, including the weatherization assistance program, which also has significant job creation as a result of upgrading homes. >> right, right, exactly. And kind of in that same direction, I'm also interested in the federal local partnership model.
▶ 1:57:33How can local governments best use these grants to maximize savings and other benefits for their communities? >> the the local, um, you know, you mean the local communities working with the federal agencies? Yes they should. The local communities working with federal agencies. That is one of the key ways that we can expand.
▶ 1:57:55There's, for example, in the energy efficiency, um, it has the buildings upgrade prize, which really expanded to a whole lot of rural communities and additional communities that hadn't been served by federal agencies before. So there's lots of new opportunities that have come out in recent years to help support local communities using those federal dollars. And and that's a big part of job creation with those local communities.
▶ 1:58:23>> and also because I don't have much time left, I know that manufacturers want clear and consistent certification requirements. And so if you could please let me know in writing how gutting the doi's authority to set these efficiency standards creates confusion and could raise costs for businesses. That'd be awesome. Mr. chairman, I yield. Thank you, thank. >> you, thank you. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from michigan's 10th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:58:50Chairman and ranking member, for holding this very important hearing today. Across the country, families are struggling to afford a home in michigan. The situation is dire. Governor whitmer is pushing to adopt the 2021 building codes, codes that would add an estimated $15,000 to the cost of new home. Now, let's be clear about what that means.
▶ 1:59:11For every $1,000 increase in price of a home, 3393 families are priced out of the market by adding 15,000 in mandated costs. You're talking about tens of thousands of hardworking families losing their shot at homeownership. And why? Because the biden administration, so-called green new deal policy in the whitmer administration's echo of them in lansing, are forcing climate mandates that carry a crushing price tag.
▶ 1:59:41Families are being told they must pay more now, while any alleged savings from these policies won't be realized for decades, if at all. In the meantime, first time home buyers are locked out, priced out and pushed further from the american dream. The situation in michigan is so severe that the michigan home builders association has taken the extraordinary step of suing the current administration in lansing over these mandates, because they know what this means for families, builders, and the future of housing affordability in our state.
▶ 2:00:11But the damage doesn't stop there. The rush to green policies isn't just driving up home prices. It's also putting a dangerous strain on our electric grid. My so, the regional operator for michigan and much of the midwest is already running at dangerously low levels of reserve capacity at this very moment. Energy demand is hitting record highs as america races to power new technologies and compete with china in the ai revolution.
▶ 2:00:40These policies are undermining the reliability and affordability of the very system our economy depends on. This is the wrong direction. Washington and lansing should be tearing down barriers to home ownership, strengthening our grid and lowering costs for families. Instead, they are pushing mandates that leave americans paying more for less. Mr.
▶ 2:01:01Hughes, can you articulate for us what happens to affordability when families are forced into an all electric home versus being able to choose natural gas or other options? >> uh, well, for starters, I'm not very articulate, but I'll try. Uh, the again, the added cost of these appliances and overall, uh, added codes, whether it's resiliency or efficiency.
▶ 2:01:29And I remind the committee again, we feel like that we're at a very good level already. Our houses that we've built over the last 20 years perform very well from resiliency and energy efficiency. We are big advocates, uh, of updating existing homes. Uh, there's no no question of the 137 million homes in this country, 130 million of them were built before modern codes.
▶ 2:01:55So we don't feel like the answer is to continue to pile on cost that homeowners can't already afford. We feel like we're at that level right now, and any anything going forward has to be cost effective. We have to reach that balance. If we're going to spend more for it, we have to know that we're going to we're going to get a return on that investment. >> that's a very good stat.
▶ 2:02:22Of the 137 million homes, 130 of them were built before those codes. And now the housing crisis, because of of policy making. And in these governments around the nation, um, getting power back to the people is probably a good call. Um, Mr. hughes, once again, uh, from your perspective as a home builder, why is it so important that we keep affordability, affordability front and center in these energy policy debates in capital cities across the country? >> uh, it's pretty simple.
▶ 2:02:50If if we can't, if homeowners, home buyers can't afford them, there's no need in us building them to start with. So, I mean, it's just, again, common sense. We haven't used that word quite enough today or that term quite enough. We've got to use some common sense. >> well, common sense. >> I'm a big advocate. Excuse me? I'm a big advocate of energy efficient products. There's no question I've used them for 25 years.
▶ 2:03:17You have to have that upfront money to begin with. Uh, we feel like we've reached a good baseline and there's no need pushing it and requiring it when homeowners, home buyers simply can't afford it. >> well, common sense seems to be in short supply in this town, which is why I'm glad that you are bringing perspective from home. Thank you so much.
▶ 2:03:40>> the gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york's 20th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. >> there's no doubt that our. Constituents are experiencing. Higher and higher. Energy bills. >> we can continue to. >> spend a lot. >> of time talking past each other. >> and playing the blame game. Or we can take concrete steps that will actually help make energy more affordable by using proven programs.
▶ 2:04:04Doe's weatherization assistance program is incredibly effective at supporting energy efficiency retrofits of low income homes, each home receiving weatherization services saves, on average, $372 every year on its utility bills. And that doesn't even consider the non-energy benefits of living in a healthier and more comfortable home. So Mr.
▶ 2:04:27Saul rinaldi, at this time of rapidly increasing energy demand and prices, can you give us a sense of why the weatherization assistance program is needed, and whether there are some program reforms that can help make the program even more effective? >> uh, yes. Congressman, um, and the weatherization assistance program has weatherize over 7 million homes since 1976, and it continues and weatherize 35,000 homes every year.
▶ 2:04:56Those homes are for people who are at 200% of the federal poverty line, and are many of them are choosing between, uh, between paying for medicine or paying for food and paying their utility bill. Uh, a lot of them have homes that aren't even able to be, uh, to be upgraded. So there's weatherization readiness to help them make their get their homes free of mold or asbestos so they can be sealed and upgraded. And that keeps people in their homes from having them being forced out of their homes for not being inhabitable.
▶ 2:05:25The weatherization assistance program is critical to the most underserved people in our communities, and that is why the building performance association strongly supports the weatherization legislation that you introduced. >> well, thank you. That bill that you just indicated is our bipartisan bill, h.r. 1355, that would reauthorize the program while making modest reforms to allow it to even more effectively serve eligible households. And I don't see any reason why we couldn't come together to work on this effort.
▶ 2:05:57The last time this program was reauthorized, president trump signed it into law as part of the energy act of 2020. So as recently as july 8th, doe issued a press release celebrating $325 million in weatherization assistance funds and 30 million in weatherization readiness funds being made available to states, a doe official is quoted as saying, thanks to president trump's leadership, we're able to focus on reducing energy costs for americans that can least afford high energy prices
▶ 2:06:28Through the efforts of weatherization. Mr. chair, I'd like to request unanimous consent that this press release be included in the hearing record. >> without objection. So ordered. >> I thank you for that. Um, in addition to the administration's, um, acknowledgment of the effectiveness of the program, miss saul rinaldi, you mentioned in your testimony that nearly 750 contractors and individuals from across, um, all states, all 50 states have expressed their support for
▶ 2:06:59This reauthorization effort. Um, can you give us a sense of why bpa, along with many, uh, small businesses it represents, believes this program is so important. >> weatherization is a job creator. Uh, and there's training associated with weatherization assistance program. Uh, across the country, we see more, uh, contractors being trained to to work in these low income homes. And, and the contractors also have a real connection with their with their customers.
▶ 2:07:29They see how it helps change their lives for the better. Our contractors are very supportive of the weatherization program because of that real connection they have with their customers and the training that it provides them. >> I thank you for that. And I'd like to request, again, unanimous consent to add a may 8th letter from nearly 750 individuals and contractor businesses to chair guthrie, ranking member pallone, and the leadership of the senate committee on energy and natural resources in support of h.r.
▶ 2:07:591355. So I can get approval there, Mr. chair. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you so much. Um, I certainly want to make sure the contractors carrying out this work are able to continue to provide weatherization services, but unfortunately, I've heard reports that those previously announced doe funds have not yet been received by states, which is partially due to doe staff reductions leaving insufficient people in place to review and approve these state plans.
▶ 2:08:27So, miss saul rinaldi, can you give us a sense of how these delays are affecting contractors that carry out this work, as well as the individuals that are waiting to get their homes? >> weatherized my understanding is only six of 56 states and territory plans have been approved. Without those plans approved and the funding, uh, reaching the states, uh, we're seeing the potential of layoffs.
▶ 2:08:50We've talked with contractors from michigan and georgia who have who have also noted that they're looking at they're very concerned with not having access to these funds and concerned that there may be layoffs as a result. >> well, I appreciate that. It's obvious. It's obvious that weatherization works and hope we can get those dollars out the door. With that, I thank you, and thank you, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> the gentleman's time has expired. Yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from oregon second district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Mr.
▶ 2:09:20Hughes, um, I'm looking at the leed leadership in energy and environmental design standards, which I'm. >> from oregon, and so I'm extremely familiar with these, having heard about them for years.
▶ 2:09:33Back in salem, during the 12 years I was in the oregon legislature, the the list of things that are green, and that's what this hearing is about today, includes location and transportation, sustainable sites, water efficiency, energy and atmosphere, materials and resources, indoor environmental quality, innovation and design, and regional priority. These are all important matters, but they add between 10 and 30% to the cost of a house.
▶ 2:09:58And so my question to you is how many of those things that I just listed are essential, in your opinion, to a home? >> uh, I guess, uh, I guess they're all essential, but it should be. We feel like it should be left up to the homeowner, uh, as which are the most essential? Which are the most important? Which are they willing to pay extra for?
▶ 2:10:22>> I wouldn't call them essential if you can choose, but maybe desirable is the word, uh, location and transportation. Who wouldn't want that, um, sustainable site? Who? All of these things are things that you would want. But if you're if we're going to impose them upon people, there's the small matter of having to pay for them. And right now, no, there are huge groups of people who simply can't afford this kind of, shall we call it a luxury or what should we call it? Uh, yes. >> uh, probably a luxury.
▶ 2:10:51And unfortunately, too many times those luxuries are what, uh, garner the, the most cost, uh, or what people are more willing to pay location. You said it's it's sad to see, uh, as much money spent on location. It is when it could be. I'd rather see it spent on the envelope. >> so we. There is zero doubt that we need more housing, zero doubt of it.
▶ 2:11:14And this debate about whether those houses have to be green in quotes and using the leed standard, uh, is to me something that certain people can afford, but most people cannot. Correct. And I when I first looked at this hearing, I thought we would be talking about building codes. I called one of my I'm a lawyer. I've called one of my former clients a building contractor, and I said, what's the most important thing about codes? You're a builder. What do you think? His answer might have been?
▶ 2:11:45>> what? >> I'm sorry. What? I asked him. What what what what was the biggest problem when it came to building codes? And his answer was the inspector. That was. That's how he answered it. And, uh, and I agree with that, because the dramatic variability in who you get as an inspector. >> oh, sure. >> so I, I have to say, as we're having this debate about codes, I'm amazed because there's this underlying assumption that they're all equally applied. And that is simply not true.
▶ 2:12:12At least that's been my experience from a distance. How about yours? >> uh, absolutely. And the term that I hate to hear the most when I ask an inspector, uh, a question sometimes is when they say what I like to see. And I said, no, I'm not interested in what you like to see. What does the code say? It's very different. Um.
▶ 2:12:34>> but what I'm saying is, if we're going to debate whether it should be green or whether it should not, one has to understand the enormous amount of flexibility, which is a nice word I'm going to use in the application of whatever those standards might be. And I just want to say that when it comes to affordability on the one hand and a code on the other, uh, who should be making that decision and where should it occur? >> homeowner. >> the homeowner should make that choice. But when it comes to a code, that's a mandate.
▶ 2:13:03It seems to me that there's there's a there's the federal level of determining that there's the state level of determining it, there's the local level, and then there's the inspector. So where would you suggest we focus our attention when we're trying to figure out how we're going to apply whatever code we might think is mandatory? >> uh, personally, I feel like it should be done at a state level. Unfortunately, that varies too.
▶ 2:13:28There are some home rule states that leave it up to individual municipalities, counties, and cities, and which is a disaster because more times than not, it comes down to that. Inspector. Uh, in north carolina, we have a uniform code, and it's still a struggle to make sure that everybody gets the same answer. >> certainly is thank you for being here. Thank you for all of your, uh, participation. And I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time.
▶ 2:13:57The chair now recognizes the lady from the washington's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you to the witnesses. Uh, you know. >> I remember the 1970s. We had a gas price crisis. We had gas lines, and that brought us gas efficient cars, and it brought down prices and our need for gasoline, and it reduced pollution. And it was a win, win win. And we all learned from that.
▶ 2:14:26Since the 1980s, the pacific northwest has embraced energy efficiency, squeezing every single drop out of each kilowatt from our hydroelectric dams and other sources. And that has resulted in the pacific northwest reaping huge efficiency benefits for decades, delivering lower costs and keeping the power on and not, and keeping our grid from getting overloaded. And so the premise of this whole hearing really, um, boggles my mind.
▶ 2:14:55I mean, it's really just not that complicated for me or for my constituents. Who wouldn't want more energy efficiencies with this kind of track record of of money savings and reliability? And I'll tell you that in my district, democrats and republicans agree on this. Um, we like efficiency. The public utility districts love this. They don't want to have blackouts. It just feels like a no brainer. And I can't imagine why it is not a bipartisan agreed on issue here.
▶ 2:15:24Um, and I say that because the recently passed, you know, one big beautiful bill stripped away these tax credits that we've been talking about today that were meant to help consumers pay any increased upfront costs on an energy efficient home, and that is not reducing costs. Now, we have an administration that is set on weakening the energy star program. Who doesn't love the energy star program when you're buying a new appliance?
▶ 2:15:54I mean, we love those programs. Um, we get heat waves now in the northwest. Um, most of us don't have homes with air conditioning. So now we're all getting air conditioning for the first time. And we want heat pumps because they're energy efficient and they will save us money. And not just that, these incentives sent send signals to the market so that they build more of these. And there's competition and prices come down like this all just makes common sense.
▶ 2:16:21Um, I also just wanted to touch on building codes because that's really the topic here. Um, for years, the pnnl, the pacific northwest national lab has provided detailed cost savings analysis, um, for consensus based building codes, uh, from a panel of experts. And for the most part, these building codes, they're local. And states and communities need good information based on evidence to make those decisions.
▶ 2:16:48And yet, even that research is being undermined by this administration. In fact, the program that funds it is being cut by 93%. Um, Mr. hughes nahb was an active participant in deliberating these building codes.
▶ 2:17:04Can you, um, just simply agree that decimating funding, uh, to assess new building codes takes an efficiency standards, takes critical information away from developers who are looking at building codes or people buying new appliances, like, does evidence help them make decisions? >> um, I would say yes. Uh. >> I would say yes to I mean, I love having data to help me make a decision. We're putting in new appliances right now.
▶ 2:17:35Our national labs employ some of the smartest scientists in this country. And actually, because of this same work, we know that on average, it takes only two and a half years for households to recuperate. Uh, any increases in construction costs through these energy efficiency savings? Um, based on 2024 data. And every year past that, they're just saving and saving. And most people staying at home for at least, I believe, 12.5 years.
▶ 2:18:02Um, I understand that making these jumps to new standards is not easy. I will also mention that there are programs that train those in construction to build these, and to to be able to install these. Um, that program was also cut. In fact, washington state has now not had a $3 million grant delivered. So I guess it's not questioned so much.
▶ 2:18:29I just really want to make this comment like I innovation is a good thing. Saving energy is a good thing. We're seeing unprecedented, unprecedented and rising demand with data centers. We talk about this all the time, how we need to modernize grid, and we need to get every kilowatt out of our system.
▶ 2:18:50And it just seems like efficiency should be a place we can agree and also give localities the ability to implement common sense building standards that will save people money. Um, with that, I will yield back. >> well, thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back the balance of her time, and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from florida's 15th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, for convening this important hearing.
▶ 2:19:19And thank you to our witnesses for joining us here today to share your insights and your testimony. For many americans, the american dream includes home ownership. And we saw during the biden administration that owning a home became increasingly out of reach, in part because his department of energy advanced numerous building and appliance regulations that raised cost constrained consumer choice and diminished our grid security.
▶ 2:19:47We've worked with president trump to already reverse some of these policies, including signing into law the cra resolution to rescind regulations imposed on appliances, including natural gas, water heaters, dishwashers and central ac. I appreciate our witnesses sharing their insights about the impacts of mandating burdensome building and appliance energy standards, and discussing with us today the further steps that we can take to restore the american dream of home ownership. Mr.
▶ 2:20:18Hughes, I'd like to start with you. Your written testimony touches on a point that I think is important to understanding the impact of some of these regulations, and that is that the majority of your members, the majority of the homebuilders, are actually small businesses that build ten or fewer homes per year. Is that right? Correct.
▶ 2:20:40Would you share with us how and expansive, very imposing regulatory burden affects those small businesses in particular, and makes it more difficult for them to do their work? >> uh, that could be give a couple answers there. I can I can speak to how it affects me. Many of our small builders, our small builders, because they build custom homes.
▶ 2:21:05And, um, there's a wide variety of options in custom homes. So obviously they're going to be a lot more, um, increased cost and, uh, at, at that price point, um, homeowners can afford more of the things, uh, that they want. They, uh, more expensive appliances, more efficient appliances. But we still feel like that.
▶ 2:21:30Uh, we we are at that point, even with the small businesses that small builders, uh, we're at that point where we're doing things as efficient and as resilient as they can be done. Uh. Now, we don't need to continue to pile them. >> would a typical small home builder have an in house legal department? >> no. >> would a typical small home builder have an in-house compliance department? >> no.
▶ 2:21:59>> now, another thing that I hear frequently from I'm from florida, so one thing that I hear frequently back home is concern about the rising cost of housing. And in your written testimony, you also mentioned that energy efficiency enhancements are often not fully accounted for in the appraisal of homes. Can you explain to us why these enhancements might be difficult to account for?
▶ 2:22:24>> well, I can tell you from experience, um, as we tried, as I mentioned earlier, I'm a big advocate of energy efficient systems, and I've been using them for 25 years. And I can tell you, uh, in that 25 years, I've had one appraiser to give me any extra credit for an innovative new product, that that's also a crisis. I've been sitting on roundtables for 25 years and we've gotten nowhere with it.
▶ 2:22:51Um, and that makes it difficult to as we continue to add regulations, if you're not going to get credit for it and you can't afford to pay for it to begin with, we've gotten nowhere. >> so, in other words, a home buyer who pays for a more expensive, specific appliance, uh, to comply with this type of standard might not see that value add in the home later if they were to sell it. >> absolutely not.
▶ 2:23:19>> and tell me what challenges, uh, are, if there are others that does this disconnect between the appraisal value and the actual construction cost posed for families who are interested in buying a home? >> uh, I'm sorry. >> how does that affect a family in real terms? If they are trying to buy a home. >> the appraisal process?
▶ 2:23:46Well, sometimes a loan simply won't work. If it won't appraise, you're not going to get the money. And as a rule, especially the farther down the chain, they don't have that extra money. Uh, and too many times, uh, young couples, first time couples, if they can't make that appraisal, they don't have the extra money for a down payment. So in most cases, it's a deal breaker if it won't appraise. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you.
▶ 2:24:14The gentlelady yields back the balance for your time. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from texas seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> well, thank you, chairman latta, and thanks to you and ranking member castor. And thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today for this timely hearing. Um, I'm going to follow up on some of the questions that my colleague from florida just asked about some of these challenges to home ownership and some of the the rising costs.
▶ 2:24:39Um, because I think, you know, we can all agree that as we sit here today, uh, the american dream is becoming less and less attainable. And that dream of home ownership, um, one of the building blocks of a good life, uh, and of pursuing the american dream, uh, having that financial security, they're out of reach for too many americans. And that number is going up and not down.
▶ 2:25:02Um, I know that in my hometown of houston, which is known to be a place where the housing is plentiful and affordable, uh, purchasing a home costs almost five times the median income, and that's nearly double what it was in houston just 15 years ago. Um, inflation is making necessities more expensive. Um, and, you know, total us household debt, uh, hit a record high in the second quarter of this year.
▶ 2:25:30So just a couple of months ago, um, and I think that, uh, we've talked in this committee a bit about, you know, permitting delays and red tape and some of the other things that have restricted construction of new homes and created bottlenecks, um, in our energy supply as well. Um, just really driving up costs for both. And today, I think most of what I've heard from my colleagues on the other side of the aisle has focused on their complaints about policies from the the biden administration.
▶ 2:26:00Um, but we really haven't heard a word from them about what is driving up these prices right now. And that is president trump's chaotic economic policy, uh, which favors his inner circle and his billionaire buddies and leaves americans behind. Um, and we know, for example, that when it comes to homebuilding, uh, president trump's tariffs are going to increase the cost of building a home by more than $10,000. That's the estimate I've seen, Mr. hughes.
▶ 2:26:29Um, there may be others out there, but we know that I'm hearing from contractors in my district, uh, that the cost of materials is going up. Everything, you know, from drywall to carpet to so much more. And appliances can be included in that. But we're focused just on appliances in this hearing. The cost of everything it takes to build a home are going up.
▶ 2:26:51And so, you know, I think it's really important to focus on that and also understand, uh, that the policies that this congress enacted in that big ugly bill are estimated to raise electricity prices by 61%. Um, that's just an astonishing number. And so the cost of inputs of building are going up, the cost of maintaining and living in our homes are going up.
▶ 2:27:17And so one of the things that we know is that these energy efficiency standards have really been important to keeping costs low for americans. And of course, maintaining consumer choice and ensuring that these standards are attainable is really important. Uh, we're all consumers. I think we all support and agree with that. Uh, but I think what we're seeing is that this congress giving the trump administration a blank check to just slash and burn, uh, as it pleases, is moving us in the wrong direction.
▶ 2:27:45And in less than a year, president trump has attacked nearly every facet of the federal government that keeps costs down for americans in need. Um, and including firing all the civil servants that administer, uh, the program to keep energy prices down for our constituents, the, um, the liheap program, low income housing energy assistance program.
▶ 2:28:06So, um, I know that we have limited time here, so I'm just going to mention, uh, of course, there are tens of thousands of households in texas that rely on that, um, liheap program to keep our, um, costs down. Uh, certainly with air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter. We have seen in texas that unfortunately, uh, we have extreme weather events at all times of the year.
▶ 2:28:32And, um, I've mentioned before in this committee, but I think it bears repeating with these witnesses as we think about insulation, energy efficiency, building our homes. Um, it was not it was just a couple years ago, less than five years ago, um, when we had the winter freeze and the winter storm in texas, and a little boy not far from where I live froze to death inside his own home. So we are talking about life and death issues for our constituents here.
▶ 2:29:01When we talk about the importance of these investments in terms of making energy affordable. So I'm going to run out of time to ask my question. I know I'm going to get in trouble from the chairman. So, miss rinaldi, I'm going to ask you a question for the record, um, if you can, in your written testimony, respond about what kind of cost savings americans can expect from weatherization upgrades.
▶ 2:29:20Um, especially in states like texas, with increasingly hot summers and cold winters, and also how low income americans will be impacted by cuts to efficiency standards and assistance programs like liheap. Thank you very much, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentlelady's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from north dakota for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you to my colleagues for letting me, um, go before them.
▶ 2:29:51Appreciate that, uh, opportunity. I'm going to kind of simplify my questions today when I travel around my state, which is north dakota, I hear from many, many folks in the smaller and the larger towns that one of their biggest problems is access to housing. There's not enough new houses on the market. There's just not enough housing stock on the market.
▶ 2:30:13And then when I talk to homebuilders association, the north dakota homebuilders association, which I've met with several times, because this is a big issue in my state, as we're hearing all over the country, they talk about the first time I met with them. They talked about the building codes and how inappropriate they are for my state. The 2021 international energy conservation code.
▶ 2:30:35According to the north dakota homebuilders association, can add more than $22,000 to the price of a home in my state. And in practice, the builders have estimated up to $31,000.
▶ 2:30:51Yet even more troubling for all of that investment, they tell me that it will take up to 90 years for a homeowner to get the payback for those standards in my state, so obviously that doesn't make any sense at all to the ideas here of that we don't. This one size fits all solution doesn't work. Um, so, Mr. hughes, can you talk about what are some of the alternatives to this? >> uh, alternative codes?
▶ 2:31:22>> yeah, to this this one size fits all approach. >> uh. >> well, throwing it back to the states so the states can, um, establish their own codes, and and they have that, that freedom now, uh, and unfortunately, uh, to me, the code that has been developed as a model code has been presented as. Uh unamendable. You have to take it as is.
▶ 2:31:45And, uh, we're strong advocate that each state should take it and tailor it to their location and to their needs, and much more of that needs to take place. >> is there anything stopping that? What's stopping that from happening? >> what's stopping it? >> yeah. >> um, maybe education. Uh, just the fact that, uh, too many states don't realize that they can do that. Several states are doing very well.
▶ 2:32:14Texas, washington, california, north carolina. We do our own code. We have resources, uh, to do that. We have personnel that that work on. We have, uh, in north carolina, we have a residential code council, and we have full time employees that lobby that too many states don't have those resources. Sure. And they're they're told that they can't make amendments to that code. And that's simply not true. >> so are there other problems?
▶ 2:32:41So like the last several building code updates developed by the icc have clearly prioritized the green agenda over cost efficient home construction. And the department of va, usda and have already adopted those latest icc energy code standards for the homes they finance, effectively imposing these standards on those federally backed loans. So that probably prevents or prohibits the ability of states to develop their own standards.
▶ 2:33:10If some of these big federal programs are requiring the icc standards, I would assume. But interested in your thoughts on that. And then, in your view, what would be the effect on the us housing market if fannie mae and freddie mac were to adopt these standards? >> well, that's our one of our greatest fears. Uh, no question. And we in north carolina, we've gone to a six year code.
▶ 2:33:32And our legislation actually imposed a pause on any new energy codes until the next cycle that'll take place in 2030. If the hud rule stays in place. I think you're talking about that. That eliminates usda and va loans. Uh, then we simply lose all of those in north carolina. So talk about a huge limiting factor.
▶ 2:33:59Um, just won't work. >> right? >> excellent. Well, I have more questions, but not that much time. And, uh, you guys have been here a long time today, so I want to thank you all for your time and your expertise. And, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from ohio, sixth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chairman. Mr. lieberman, emc.
▶ 2:34:27>> has combated biden overreach, ensuring americans home appliances actually work. Other measures like house joint resolution 24 save businesses using refrigeration from billions in increased compliance costs or even closures. In my own personal experience, the epa has changed the refrigerant of freon in different grocery stores in the country three different times in the last 15 years. What that means is when you have a compressor, you have to pump down the compressor.
▶ 2:34:57You have to discard all your old gas, you have to flush out the lines. You have to buy the new gas, like in a company that my brothers run. You have anywhere between 60 to 75 compressors. This could be a cost for a very small business of anywhere from 50 to $150,000 every single time you do that. And this is our businesses that are running on 1.25% net. You're now, if you're a small little mom and pop independent, much smaller than my brothers, you're going to go out of business.
▶ 2:35:26Now for the big boys like kroger, this could cost them 10 to $45 million just to apply this to their stores. And here's the thing. There's no proof in the epa that the new refrigerants they're using within these systems actually do any better for the environment. So there's actually no proof to back this up. In fact, one of the different changes in the gases, I believe, from like it was 2007 to 2013, there was virtually no change in any way, shape or form. And they actually made you do this.
▶ 2:35:53And it was such a tremendous cost to the actual small business owners that a lot of them went out of business. So I think we have to really look at things sometimes differently, like the opposition party. If you look back in history when they were talking about bags and retail, first they said, let's get rid of the the paper bags to save the trees. Then they said, we can't use plastic bags anymore. Then they said, we're going to go to the cloth bags. And the cloth bags were shown to hold all the bacteria within them, and they thought that was bad.
▶ 2:36:22So instead of moving quickly and changing these procedures of what gas we use in our compressors within the retail industry, I think we should slow down and have more testing done to see, which actually makes sense. So contrary to popular belief, republicans are are conservation. That's what we believe in. When you look at ducks unlimited, we're about preserving the land. We want to hunt, we want to fish. We want to love the outdoors. We want to work with the opposition party for common sense approach to having a better system, where mom and pop stores can actually stay in business.
▶ 2:36:51We simply don't want to use tax dollars to push an agenda. We want to look at everything from every possible angle. So, Mr. lieberman, my question to you would be how can we continue to protect protect the environment while also protecting consumers choice and protecting small businesses? Thank you. >> well, you're very much correct that the proliferation of refrigerants is a big requirement.
▶ 2:37:14Decades ago, uh, the trademark freon, but, uh, but known as cfc 12 or cfc 22, a host of chemicals were restricted on the grounds that they were depleting the ozone layer. Years later, the ozone friendly substitutes were targeted as greenhouse gases. So it kind of it's always something um, and so, uh, this has added greatly to consumer costs. It's added greatly to, uh, repair costs.
▶ 2:37:42Uh, for example, I know a repair service technician saying he may have to get a bigger truck because all these different refrigerants and some of it requires dedicated equipment just for that particular refrigerants. There's a risk of cross-contamination using the refrigerant. There's there's there's a lot of costs that, uh, that are on consumers. You also mentioned, uh, refrigeration users or supermarkets and others.
▶ 2:38:11So refrigeration and air conditioning has very much been hit with a, with a, an avalanche of, uh, regulations. So, uh, at the very least a go slow approach would be better than, um, this approach where, uh, equipment that has years of useful life left suddenly they have to consider maybe making some changes because it's not clear that the refrigerant needed to service it will be available in the years ahead.
▶ 2:38:40So there's, there's there's there's a lot to be said for more measured approach rather than constantly changing the requirements. >> very eloquently said, and I do think there's good intentions on the opposition party and perhaps with the epa the intentions are good, but perhaps conversations with associations that this is going to affect, so they can see the boots on the ground and see how it actually affects the economy and affects the public.
▶ 2:39:04I think those, those, uh, talks would be very helpful to all of us, even bringing in the research, bringing all three of the parties together. I thank you for your time, and I yield my time back to the chair. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
▶ 2:39:27Uh, I'm struck I'm going to go off script a little bit because the democrats on this committee seem to be operating under a little bit of amnesia. You know, they've highlighted or they talk about the last couple of months that the president has had the white house, but they have completely forgotten the four disastrous years of the biden presidency. Inflation surged, peaking at 9% in mid 2022. It remained above the fed's 2% target for 40 months. That's on their watch.
▶ 2:39:59That's what they did. Prices rose for the consumer 17 to 20% since biden took office, with essentials like food, rent and electricity increasing sharply. Real wages fell 4 to 5% since january 2021. So all these things that they're talking about, about the homeownership being unaffordable, these are things that they caused. And so you talked about a lot of this with the standards that they impose. They don't make any sense.
▶ 2:40:28And then they come to this committee and then they forget what the last four years looked like. And then they come up with low energy slogans like big ugly bill. Well, that's just nonsense. If they had voted for this, they would be supporting working families and the tax hike that would have happened if they did nothing, which if they were in power, that's exactly what would have happened. And so this presidency, in this congress, are about making things affordable. Again. It starts with the working families tax cut that was just passed.
▶ 2:40:57It starts with reversing the biden level obscene regulations that we have on everything from refrigerators to home appliances. Like who would thought who would have thought that any of us, when we ran for congress would be talking about gas stoves or showerheads, for god's sakes. But nonetheless, I have a bill, uh, dealing with showerheads because of things that happened under the biden administration. So let's talk about that.
▶ 2:41:23Instead of empowering families, the federal government has been telling the people how long that their dishwashers can operate and what kind of stove they can buy, and even how much water that the showerhead could use. And so the bill, the what I'm talking about, restores some of that common sense. Let's get back to it. And it's a core. It's about protecting families from bureaucratic overreach. We see this time and time again where the ivory tower of washington, D.C.
▶ 2:41:48Comes in in their infinite wisdom and tells the rest of everybody how to live. Mr. lieberman, can you describe the whiplash regulations between the last few administrations as they relate to, I don't know, showerhead water flow? >> well, actually, the showerhead, uh, saga has been going on since 1992.
▶ 2:42:09There was a, uh, the energy policy act of 1992 originally had these, uh, these these showerhead provisions. Uh, some people don't like the, uh, the, uh, the lower flow. Uh, I think it's quite frankly, a very silly regulation. If the shower is hitting you with too much water, you turn the knob down.
▶ 2:42:31I don't know why you'd ever really needed the government, but over time, um, it is true that shower head makers have made adjustments, uh, to the the lower flow. And that's improved things a little bit. Also, it's easy to defeat the, uh, the don't you didn't hear that from me. But it's easy to defeat the, uh, the low provision, the the the flow restrictor, I should say in the, in the shower head. >> that contractors do it all the time. Right. So you don't have to answer that. You can plead the fifth, but I'm sure they do that all the time.
▶ 2:43:02>> right, Mr. hughes? But, um, um, and, and one of the issues was whether shower heads with multiple heads, whether each shower head can give you a good flow of water or, or they you have to take the cumulative effect into account. And so uh. >> but but again, it gets to the point where depriving consumers of the ability to make that choice for themselves. Right? >> that's that's really what this is all about, is letting people decide for themselves. >> the department of energy is taking comments on the issues. The center point of a recent executive order issued by president trump.
▶ 2:43:32Is energy efficiency really being prioritized when you're restricting water usage, though? >> um, well, it's the energy used to heat the water. So if you're taking a cold shower, you're you're not you're you're not helping out. But again, um, whether we really need federal intervention on, uh, shower flow is I think was questionable, but this this has been going on for questionable. >> we like that, Mr. lieberman. Energy efficiency and resilience measures are important to south carolinians. Uh, but not all energy efficiency efforts are created equal.
▶ 2:44:02Uh, I think it's important that taxpayers get a good deal, Mr. lieberman. Or marginal energy savings associated with weatherization programs. Are they worth the cost? >> well, there have been some studies that say that the the benefits tend to be overstated and the costs tend to be understated. Usually. Um, there's projections, uh, that, that, that, that come up with, with benefits, well, in excess of costs.
▶ 2:44:24But there have been some retrospective analyzes that, that, that, that found that, uh, that it isn't nearly so clear whether, whether this is a program that's worth the cost. I think it's at least worth looking at, uh, at some of those studies to see if we're getting the bang for the buck with this program. >> I appreciate your answer to that. I see my time has expired, but I think that goes to his point earlier that the the the housing costs have gone up 10 to 30% based on regulations. And with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you.
▶ 2:44:53The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york's 23rd district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. >> in my home. >> state of new york, albany politicians, they have decided that they know better than the people that they serve. They've moved to rip natural gas out of all new construction, uh, in residential homes as of january 1st, 2026. And they're marching towards banning it in every new building. Uh, it's not just bad policy.
▶ 2:45:20It's a direct assault on affordability, reliability, and my constituents safety. Uh, when government bans natural gas, the cost of everything goes up, especially building a home. It can go up ten, 20, $30,000 in upgrades. Uh, and that's money that my constituents don't have. And it pushes the homeownership dream further out of reach for our youngest generation.
▶ 2:45:40Monthly bills pile up because in states like new york, heating with natural gas is extremely cheaper, uh, than, uh, in more reliable, frankly, than electricity. Uh, in my district, we know what happens when the power goes out during a brutal winter storm. Uh, we saw this. I lived this during winter storm elliot in 2022. Uh, families, if they were left with nothing but electric heat, uh, it was a dangerous and deadly situation. We lost 69 people in that storm.
▶ 2:46:10Uh, people can and will lose their lives when politicians take away their ability to choose the energy source that makes sense for their homes. Uh, Mr. hughes, how are these natural gas restrictions affecting builders in the housing market today? >> uh, howard gas, again, the increased cost of having to go total electric because the the equipment, as a rule, is more expensive and it, it operates more expensive.
▶ 2:46:38>> I, I met with many homebuilders in the last month in my state. And they've got people literally walking away from the table when they've told them they can't get their building permits registered by, uh, new year's eve day. Uh, and they will have to fully electrify their homes in new york. Um, I appreciate your answer. Energy choice gives families the ability to pick the most affordable and reliable way to power their homes. The same principle needs to apply to our federal government.
▶ 2:47:05Uh, yet current policy has moved in the opposite direction, forcing federal buildings to eliminate natural gas and rely exclusively on electricity. Natural gas powers back up systems that keeps our veterans hospitals running, supports energy intensive work at our national labs and military installations, and removing it reduces flexibility, it increases costs, and it makes critical infrastructure more vulnerable. The numbers tell the story. Natural gas is more affordable than electricity and will remain so for decades to come, the doe analysis shows.
▶ 2:47:37Eliminating it could increase energy consumption and emissions, which totally undermine our efficiency goals. Uh, these policies risk disrupting operations, jeopardizing national security and wasting taxpayer dollars. Federal agencies need options so that they can operate effectively and reliably. Uh, just as families deserve the same flexibility in their homes. Uh, Mr.
▶ 2:47:58Steffy, what kind of long term uncertainty do gas bands and fossil fuel phase outs like section 433 of the energy independence security act pose for washington's gas customers? >> well, it it creates an environment where, uh, businesses or the federal government in this instance, is unaware and uncertain about what their next investment is going to be to meet the energy needs.
▶ 2:48:22If you restrict, uh, natural gas, which is a very affordable, very reliable again, our reliability to deliver to the federal buildings is 99.7%. You take away the ability for them to find, uh, redundant and resilient electricity when they need it through backup generation. But you also then impose increased obligations on electricity grid, making that even more strange than it is already today.
▶ 2:48:47>> if, uh, you know, we're seeing this in real time in new york as the governor has increased, uh, our public service commission increased utility rates for the second time, uh, in a year. Uh, my constituents are facing double digit percentage increases in their utility bills. Uh, we've taken power off of the grid and increased the demand on the grid and are surprised that the cost is rising, uh, at a drastic rate.
▶ 2:49:12And that's exactly why I have introduced the energy choice act, which hopefully this committee acts on very soon. Uh, that would ban the bands, ban the, the natural gas and, and propane bans, uh, that a lot of our, um, uh, left leaning states are going toward, uh, at the end of the day, energy choice is about freedom. It's about affordability and common sense. And families shouldn't be forced into costly, one size fits all mandates, and neither should the federal government. Uh, taking away options doesn't save money. It raises bills. It doesn't improve reliability.
▶ 2:49:42It weakens our systems, and it puts people's lives at risk. Real leadership means empowering people and agencies to choose the energy choice that works best for them. And energy choice is not negotiable. It's essential. And with that, I yield back. Mr. chairman. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from colorado's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Of course, to the ranking member. And thank you.
▶ 2:50:11>> to all of our witnesses for coming today to have this conversation. Um, we all want clean air, clean land, clean water. We all want to be good and responsible stewards of our environment and the energy that we produce from our environment, but we also have to have a common sense approach to this. And so my first question will be a yes or no question to everyone on the panel.
▶ 2:50:29Do you think that the government should mandate that electric utilities and appliance manufacturers have the ability to reach into a private citizens house and adjust their thermostat, their water heater, literally, the ability to dim lights in the name of energy efficiency, Mr. hughes. >> no. >> I'm sorry, miss. >> I said no. You mean the federal government? >> no thank you.
▶ 2:50:57The reason that I ask that question is because of something that's happened in colorado. Uh, the state has adopted the model. Low energy and carbon code, uh, which is a modified version of the 2024 building code, icc building code, uh, and it mandates that in 2026 municipalities, municipalities will have to adopt as their own baseline when updating building codes, um, codes that include aggressive incentivization, uh,
▶ 2:51:28To switch all homes over to electricity only, uh, require homes over a certain square footage to basically become carbon neutral and offset their power by having solar panels, either on site or other, uh, methodologies. Um, and it's one of the first in the nation to require. And I'll read you from the code here, which actually have pulled up demand responsive controls for electric heating and cooling systems, uh, shall be provided with demand response controls.
▶ 2:51:58What's a demand response control for heating, for cooling. And then in other places in the code it talks about lighting and water heaters. Demand response is it's connected to the utility. The utility can literally reach in and lock you out of your thermostat, your own water heater, control, the lighting, uh, in private buildings in response to energy efficiency mandates. I don't think that that sort of intrusion is something that our consumers want.
▶ 2:52:24I don't think that's something that they want to pay for in terms of having to buy appliances that have this demand response capability, to say nothing of the security risks that go along with, as we all know, the internet of things and having your water heater, your lighting, your thermostat connected to the utility, which by government fiat has to have, excuse me, has to have the ability to reach in and control all of those things in the name of energy efficiency. We know it's expensive.
▶ 2:52:54Uh, and and I don't think that that is good policy. So I'm glad to hear you all say, um, that you are at somewhat in agreement with me on that. Um, the next question will be to, uh, Mr. hughes, during the whole rulemaking process around adopting this model, low energy and carbon code in colorado, the colorado association of homebuilders warned that these rules would restrict the housing supply in colorado, making for, uh, more competitive and more expensive markets than neighboring states,
▶ 2:53:25And actually don't do anything to help consumers actually be able to afford homes. Can you speak a little bit to the affordability component of having this sort of mandate around household appliances? >> uh, I can't see where there would be any affordability. Uh, it looks to me like it would reduce, um, affordability. Okay. >> um, appreciate that. We saw in 2021 in colorado, uh, unfortunately, we had a very tragic fire, the marshall fire.
▶ 2:53:54Um, and as a result of that marshall fire, a lot of homes were actually destroyed. The rebuild cost for those homes, uh, on average, was about $20,000 more because of a lot of these green building codes. I think one of the earlier panelists had mentioned that if somebody is locked out of their thermostat, they're just going to go buy an electric space heater that the utilities don't control to be able to heat their homes, they're going to find other workarounds.
▶ 2:54:21But those workarounds come with more expense, more demand on the grid. Uh, and ultimately, um, more cost to the consumer. Um, so for for an actual real world scenario in colorado, we saw the answer. It's $20,000 more, uh, in these green energy codes to be able to put that housing back into into effect. Um, Mr. Mr. lieberman, I got 20s here. Uh, can you just talk a little bit about the cost savings?
▶ 2:54:50Uh, when folks are being forced to move away from natural gas and toward these types of electrifications, I got 12 seconds. >> as I mentioned, the department of energy says that natural gas is three and a half times cheaper than electricity on a per unit basis, and even besides that, we're always better off when we have choices. I have a natural gas hookup in my home and electricity. I like being able to choose from both. >> thank you so much. Yield back. >> the gentleman's time has expired and yields back.
▶ 2:55:18And the chair seeing no other members wishing to ask questions, I want to thank all of our witnesses for appearing before us today. I know it's been a long afternoon. Members may have additional written questions for you. I remember remind members that they have ten business days to submit additional questions for the record, and I ask our witnesses to submit responses within ten business days.
▶ 2:55:40Upon receipt of those questions, I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the documents included on the staff hearing documents list and without objection, so ordered and without objection. The subcommittee is adjourned.