▶ 0:12:42The subcommittee will on energy will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time. Welcome to today's hearing entitled Igniting America's Energy Future: The Promise and Progress of Fusion Power. I recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement. Well, good morning y'all. We've already had a chance to say good morning. We're glad y'all are here.
▶ 0:13:08Welcome to today's energy subcommittee hearing titled Igniting America's Energy Future: The Prog Promise and Progress of Fusion Power. After a decade of stagnation, most of y'all I think the little young lady here was probably still in high school back then. After a uh of stagnation, US energy demand is once again on the rise.
▶ 0:13:33This surge is driven by several factors, including the onshoring of supply chains crucial to our national security and the rapid growth of commercial artificial intelligence technologies across the At our last subcommittee hearing, witnesses discussed nuclear energy's potential role in powering AI data centers. That conversation led us to focus on nuclear fishision which is commercially viable today.
▶ 0:14:01This hearing will spotlight nuclear fishision, a fusion, a field that after decades of promises promise has made remarkable progress across various technology readiness levels in recent years. These advancements have highlighted a growing need for workforce development. The challenge is not simply producing more PhDs, but building a robust skilled trades workforce.
▶ 0:14:28According to the Fusion Industry Association, only 23% of employees in the sector are scientists and 44% are engineers, leaving a significant portion of the workforce without advanced degrees. The industry is expanding rapidly, growing by a staggering 50% in the last two years.
▶ 0:14:52While the supply chain has tripled in size in that same two years, many fusion companies project operational pilot plants by 2035 with workforce needs expected to increase sixfold at this stage, not including additional supply chain demand. To address these needs, our national labs are considering apprenticeship programs to help prevent potential worker shortages.
▶ 0:15:18Such programs would complement the cutting edge research conducted at DOE facilities, which house much of the specialized equipment necessary for fusion science. Due to these unique capabilities, DOE's collaboration with the private sector is very vital for advancing commercialization. To foster these partnerships, DOE has launched several initiatives to connect, support, and indeed accelerate industry growth.
▶ 0:15:45These include a public private partnership program, a milestone-based fusion development program, and ongoing funding for fusion projects through the ARPA office. Public private partnerships leverage DOE's expertise while encouraging private private sector investment.
▶ 0:16:04Milestone programs tie federal funding to demonstrated a progress and ARPA's early fusion projects have already generated over $700 million in private investment. These efforts are prime examples of responsible use of taxpayers dollars. For decades, Fusion Energy was seen as a dream always 20 or 30 years away.
▶ 0:16:29But recent successes at the National Ignition Facility or NIF have begun to change that perception. NIF became the first facility in the world to achieve a positive net energy output from a fusion reaction as well as the first to achieve burning plasma. It's important to note that critical basic science questions still exist before we can see operational fusion power plants connected to the grid.
▶ 0:17:00Fortunately, academia along with DOE user facilities is working closely with the private sector to both identify and solve these remaining challenges. Continued federal investment is essential to ensuring these foundational science gaps are addressed in a very coordinated manner. The progress we've seen is undeniable, and the fusion industry is steadily advancing toward delivering fusion power to the grid.
▶ 0:17:28It can't get here quick enough, can it? I want to thank our witnesses for their testimony, and I look forward to today's discussion on how the federal government can support academia, the national labs, and private companies to ensure America leads in this critical race. Yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 0:17:47Recognize the ranking member Well, thank you very much, Chairman Weber, for convening today's important hearing on the current landscape of fusion energy, where we stand, what remains to be done, and how the federal government can play a pivotal role in ensuring US leadership in a technology that could well revolutionize our entire energy sector.
▶ 0:18:13I also want to thank our very impressive panel of witnesses for being here this morning. The US is at a critical moment in the effort to develop fusion as a carbonneutral sustainable source of energy.
▶ 0:18:29Breakthroughs in plasma physics, technology, public private partnerships, and private sector innovation are giving us reasons to believe that fusion can become a gamecher for clean power, climate resilience, energy security, and economic opportunity.
▶ 0:18:50In my home district, North Carolina State University has just launched a new remote control room under its f future fusion research initiative. In July, the Fusion Plasma Auxiliaries lab at NC State successfully conducted their experiment remotely at the D3D fusion facility in San Diego.
▶ 0:19:21This marks a significant step toward enabling greater student and institutional access to national and international fusion research facilities. It demonstrates how federal investment in infrastructure prepares students for the high-skilled jobs of tomorrow, fosters innovation and partnerships, and positions the US to lead globally.
▶ 0:19:48Universities like NC State, our national laboratories, and private innovators depend on steady investments. Many of the witnesses here today will discuss how our nation's competitiveness infusion is threatened by the absence of federal investments in major new facilities. Investments that would help address key gaps in material science and technology development.
▶ 0:20:18Without that support, the US will likely fall behind both scientifically and economically in yet another critical new industry. The federal role remains essential. Challenges like ensuring the stability of burning plasma, materials resilience, and reactor system design require substantial federal support.
▶ 0:20:44a trained workforce and demonstration projects that can scale from experiments to net energy gain. These are the building blocks of a new clean energy future for all of us.
▶ 0:20:59I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about the current hurdles on the path to a USbased commercial fusion industry and where federal action could make the greatest I also ask for unanimous consent to permit Representative Don Byer, co-chair of the Congressional Fusion Caucus, to attend this hearing and ask questions of the witnesses.
▶ 0:21:26Without objection.
▶ 0:21:28Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield
▶ 0:21:30Thank you, Ranking Member Ross, and I recognize the chairman of the full committee, Dr. Babman.
▶ 0:21:34Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Uh this morning's hearing will examine the future of fusion energy and how the United States can maintain global leadership in fusion energy technologies. And I also want to thank our illustrious witnesses here. We're looking forward to hearing what you all have to say. But back to fusion has the potential to revolutionize electricity generation and reshape entire industries in our country.
▶ 0:22:02Beyond powering the grid, it holds significant promise for a variety of commercial applications from providing medical radioisotopes for cancer treatment to enabling advanced materials processing techniques to propelling spacecraft in deep space missions. The private sector has emerged as a dynamic force in the commercial fusion energy landscape with global investments now exceeding$10 billion dollar driven largely by American companies.
▶ 0:22:33This reflects a transition from government-led research and development to a marketdriven commercially viable fusion innovations that could transform energy production worldwide. Even major tech companies such as Nvidia and Google are investing more in fusion power startups viewing the technology as a promising way to meet their growing energy demands.
▶ 0:22:58Despite substantial private sector investments, the Department of Energy plays a vital role in making fusion become a reality. DOE's latest fusion energy strategy aims to accelerate the path to commercial fusion in collaboration with industry while coordinating fusion related efforts across government academia and the public and private sectors. For example, at Oakidge National Laboratory, thank you for being here.
▶ 0:23:28uh is leveraging its deep expertise in fusion materials, plasma diagnostics, advanced modeling and simulation through three new research collaborations through the innovation network of fusion energy or the infuse program. These partnerships focus on addressing practical engineering challenges essential to delivering fusion power to the grid by the 2040s.
▶ 0:23:53Additionally, DOE serves as the central hub for bridging the science and technology gaps that are necessary to achieve commercial fusion power. Its role is critical as the federal government is the only entity capable of undertaking the high-risk highreward long-term research and development required to address these challenges.
▶ 0:24:16And although significant progress has been made, much more work remains to fully harness the potential of fusion technologies, the rapid progress of the Chinese Communist Party or CCP in this sector poses a direct challenge to US technological leadership.
▶ 0:24:36Historically, if the United States had the United States has led the way in fusion research, however, the CCP has effectively utilized its industrial base and civil military integration to accelerate technological development and to rapidly scale critical infrastructure. It is also committed to connecting the first fusion fision hybrid power plant to the electrical grid by 2030.
▶ 0:25:05The nation that successfully commercializes fusion first will likely set the global standards, the supply chains and technological frameworks that will shape this industry for decades to come. Moreover, the implications go well beyond merely achieving technological leadership. They also raise important questions about global governance and our values.
▶ 0:25:30Fusion te energy technologies must be developed and deployed by nations that uphold democrat value democratic values, transparency and international cooperation, not by authoritarian regimes that might exploit energy dominance as a weapon. The US must prioritize fusion energy development to outpace the CCP's aggressive timelines.
▶ 0:25:55achieving leadership in fusion technology is not only essential for energy independence but for uh ensuring that democratic values shape one of the most consequential breakthroughs of the entire century. I want to thank our witnesses again for their testimony today and I look forward to a very productive discussion and with that I yield back the balance of my time Mr.
▶ 0:26:19Thank you Mr. Chairman. I now want to introduce our witnesses. Our first witness today is Dr. Stephanie DM, assistant professor at University of Wisconsin Madison. Welcome. Our second witness is Dr. Will Regan, a co-founder and president at Pacific Fusion. Welcome. Our third witness is Dr. Troy Carter. You know, we have a Troy Carter in Congress, right? No, no relation, I guess. I got you. Director of the Fusion Energy Division at Oakidge National Laboratory. Welcome.
▶ 0:26:49And our final witness is Dr. Bob Mumgard, co-founder and CEO at Commonwealth Fusion Systems. So, we're glad you're here. Thank you. I now recognize Dr. Dem for five minutes.
▶ 0:27:01Chairman Weber, Ranking Member Ross, and members of the committee, thank you for holding this important hearing and for inviting me to testify. My name is Stephanie Dee, and I am the principal investigator of a Department of Energy funded fusion experiment and a professor at the University of Wisconsin Madison. I also serve as the vice president of the university fusion association and was appointed as the US science envoy with the department of state. My remarks today reflect my own views.
▶ 0:27:26In a world facing urgent energy challenges and geopolitical tensions over access to energy and energy resources, fusion gives us hope. Fusion is a dense, virtually limitless source of power derived from hydrogen that could radically transform humanity. Fusion, the process that powers the sun, occurs when light elements are forced together and combined under extreme conditions, releasing vast amount of energy. On Earth, we use magnetic bottles or powerful lasers to create these fusion conditions.
▶ 0:27:53The resulting energy could provide large-scale base load power and support applications such as hydrogen production, water desalination, process heat, and district heating. American innovation has long driven global pro progress in fusion. The United States is at a pivotal moment marked by the achievement of controlled fusion energy at the national ignition facility in 2022, the continued emergence of transformative technological and manufacturing advances and the establishment of public private partnerships to develop fusion systems capable of generating electricity.
▶ 0:28:24But our leadership is at risk. Europe, Japan, and China are leveraging American innovation to advance their industries. History has shown us that when the US invests boldly in research, it not only secures global leadership but also delivers transformative benefits to society. We cannot afford to fall behind. Universities are the foundation of the fusion energy industry, powering the breakthroughs that will radically transform how humanity sources and depends on energy. I want to highlight three priorities for retaining US leadership.
▶ 0:28:52Continuing innovation to drive fusion science and technology forward, developing an agile workforce and creating a robust fusion ecosystem. First, university innovation drives economic growth. The field of fusion energy emerged from publicly funded research and universities remain the engines of innovation that see new industries. Today, over 45 fusion startups are driving commercialization.
▶ 0:29:1460% 60% spun out of universities and 95% of private investment has gone into those university spinouts. At WMadison alone, federally funded research led to three fusion companies. Shine Technologies, Type 1 Energy, and Realto Fusion. Shine has already commercialized fusion by domestically providing critical life-saving medical isotopes, while Reala and Type 1 comprise a quarter of the DOE Milestone program awardees who are designing first-of-akind fusion power plants.
▶ 0:29:44Together, they demonstrate how 20% of federal support can attract 80% of private investment, create high-skilled jobs, and fuel economic growth. Second, we need to build an agile workforce. Fusion Energy is engineering at the extreme extremes, requiring precision and advanced manufacturing. Federal funding has solved extraordinary challenges, but now we must scale those solutions into economically viable industry.
▶ 0:30:07The American Fusion workforce faces personnel shortages, retention issues, education and training gaps, and limits in public engagement. To meet the demand, we must expand programs to include community colleges and launch apprenticeship programs. The recently introduced Fusion Workforce Act by ranking me member Lorren and subcommittee chair lays out a coordinated response. Fusion can also renew America's industrial base, driving local and regional growth by revitalizing industries, creating jobs, and strengthening wages.
▶ 0:30:37Third, we need to grow a robust fusion ecosystem. Public private partnerships like Infuse and DOE Milestone and fire collaboratives have laid strong foundations showing how universities, national labs, and companies can close these critical gaps together. To move swiftly from proving fusion science to developing commercial fusion energy, we need larger regional hubs supported by federal and state funds that coordinate efforts maximize efficiencies.
▶ 0:31:01Universities will be indispensable partners in the coordination of these hubs by fostering innovation, interdisciplinary research that anticipates and meets the future technological and workforce needs of the fusion industry. Ongoing uncertainty in federal fusion investments poses serious risk. Funding delays strain universities that lack capital to bridge these gaps. These jeopardize workforce stability, research continuity, and pace of innovation while driving talent to other sectors or abroad, threatening the growth of private companies.
▶ 0:31:31Meanwhile, international collaborators and competitors are advancing with coordinated strategies, new infrastructure, and natural workforce initiatives and major in government support. Without a stable federal investment framework and coordinated effort, the US risks seeding leadership in fusion energy. Continued public private partnerships are essential to commercialization and sustained federal funding will remain the catalyst that seeds innovation and drives the future of fusion energy. Thank you,
▶ 0:31:59man. You ended right on time. Boy, she's good. Dr. Rian, she speaks at at about 400 words a minute with Gus up to about 650. So, you got a road hose. You're up next. Your testimony, please, sir.
▶ 0:32:14All right. Thank you, Chairman Weber, Ranking Member Ross, also Chairman Babin, and uh Ranking Member Lrren of the full committee, members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today on the promise of fusion energy, and for your long-standing support of the field that has finally brought commercial fusion power within reach. I'm Will Regan, president and co-founder of Pacific Fusion. As Dr. DM mentioned, fusion is what powers our sun. It's where you squeeze hydrogen into helium and release vast amounts of energy. The way we do it at Pacific Fusion is called pulser-driven inertial fusion.
▶ 0:32:44We run a fast pulse of electricity across a tiny can of fuel, which squishes the can, squeezes the fuel, and makes it hot and makes it fuse. We can make power by doing this over and over, kind of like a piston engine. We're about 2 years old, have over 120 staff, and have raised over $900 million. We're on track to achieve net facility gain by 2030. So, this is more fusion energy out than all the energy we start with. This is something that no one has yet done. and it's a critical milestone to get to power plants. And then we aim to generate net power by the mid 2030s.
▶ 0:33:14We're all here today because fusion could be the ultimate power source, creating a new multi-t trillion dollar energy sector and providing abundant power for industry and AI. What makes fusion so great? Three things. Uh first, fusion fuel is just extremely energy dense. You get millions of times more energy out per unit fuel than in chemical reactions. The little speck of fuel in our tiny fuel cans can power your home for a week. Fusion's compact. You can make lots of power on a little bit of land with fairly small amount of materials, things like steel and cement.
▶ 0:33:45And fusion is safe. It stops when you stop driving it and makes no high level waste. And the fusion industry, now on the cusp of commercialization, owes its existence to the visionary support provided by Congress. We founded our company in 2023 as a direct result of uh national lab breakthroughs. In 2022, first, Lawrence Livermore's National ignition facility used lasers to drive controlled fusion ignition for the first time in history, releasing more fusion energy out than the laser energy they used to drive that.
▶ 0:34:13Around the same time, Sandia's uh Z machine showed that electrical pulses offer a far more efficient path to achieve ignition and that efficiency boost lets you take the next step beyond ignition and get net uh facility gain, net energy gain. Also, a team at Lawrence Livermore in that same year demonstrated a compact modular technology to make those electrical pulses, which opens up an exciting path to make commercial inertial fusion power. So, those three things gave us a great foundation to build on.
▶ 0:34:41Uh, and because our system is highly modular, made from widely available materials, things like steel, cement, uh, steel, aluminum, plastic, oil, and water, we see a path forward to rapidly scale up affordable fusion power in America. And what's even more exciting is we're not alone. Not just us, but multiple American fusion companies like Dr. Mumgards are poised to soon demonstrate fusion energy. The problem is that China's noticed uh and they're investing heavily to own this industry.
▶ 0:35:07Just since 2023, uh China has put upwards of 10 to 13 billion into fusion, including over $2 billion into a stateowned champion supported by one of their large power plant builders. And they've been rapidly constructing four major research facilities. They're aiming for fusion power by 2031, if not sooner. This is an existential threat to American fusion leadership and energy dominance. Our industry and Congress need to work together to make sure that America wins. How do we win? We need to grow our workforce.
▶ 0:35:37Uh not just fusion scientists, but mechanical and electrical engineers, technicians, welders, and many others. The Lorrent Fusion workforce bill is a great start. We also need to start scaling our supply chain now. Uh and I'm I'm thrilled to see the Fusion Advanced Manufacturing Parody Act that was introduced yesterday. So, thank you very much, Representatives Tenny and Representative Byer for this bill. We also need continued regulatory progress and certainty building on the momentum of the recent NRC decision and also Congress's advance act.
▶ 0:36:06But most critically and and why I'm here is America needs to build fusion power plants before China with shovels in the ground as early as 2028. And fortunately, America has a great playbook for this. Uh we've used public private partnerships to reassert US leadership and commercial space just for one example. We can run that playbook again through an accountable milestone-based fusion demonstration program to jumpst start construction of multiple US fusion power plants.
▶ 0:36:31I don't ask for this just to benefit us, but because this is what is needed to move the whole US fusion industry forward fast enough to win this race. Thank you again for your time. Uh, Chairman Weber, ranking member Ross. Um, also Chairman Babin and Ranking Member Liner to the full committee and members of the subcommittee. Look forward to your
▶ 0:36:49Thank you, Dr. Rick and Dr. Carter, you're up. All right, good morning. Um, Chairman Weber, ranking member Ross, uh, members of the committee, I'll add my thanks for having this hearing. I'm glad to be here. Uh, I'm Troy Carter, director of fusion energy divi division at Oakidge National Laboratory. Uh, before I was at Oakidge, I was a professor at UCLA, uh, for many years, uh, where I led the basic plasma science facility and directed the plasma science and technology institute. I'm also a product of NC State. There you go.
▶ 0:37:16Big fan of the Wolfpack, uh, degrees in physics and nuclear engineering from there. Um last time I appeared before this committee was in 2021. That was after chairing uh the process that led to the PAC long range plan uh fus uh powering the future fusion and plasmas. Um so okay let me start first say it clearly the investment made by the federal uh government and fusion research has paid off tremendously over the decades. Support from Congress this committee uh thank you has enabled the US to make extraordinary progress.
▶ 0:37:43Uh we've learned as one example learned how to heat and control plasmas the superheated gases where fusion take place at conditions approaching those required for fusion power plants. Investments in facilities have been critical. So examples G3D tokamac at general Atomics in San Diego several devices at Princeton TFTR and NSDX NSTXU Alcatore CMOD at MIT. This was central to this progress absolutely important. Uh in addition there's been investments by NNSA that had been spoken about already.
▶ 0:38:11So the national ignition facility, the Z machine at Sandia, while these were built for stockpile stewardship, the breakthroughs that have been uh made there have direct impact, direct implications for fusion energy. Uh international collaboration is vital, remains vital. Uh so there's a number of examples there. US scientists contributed to record results at the joint European taurus in the UK uh at the Wendelstein 7X accelerator in Germany.
▶ 0:38:34US uh partnership and and involvement in Eater we're learning to build industrial scale fusion while strengthening the supply chain for fusion. Um investments in fusion R&D have had broader impact. So chairman Babin already spoke to this. There's a lot of spin-off technologies. Uh these include semiconductor manufacturing techniques using plasmas, extreme ultraviolet lithography. Um there's been advances in high temperature superconducting magnets uh that are now reshaping energy technology uh and developing tools for controlling analyzing plasmas for fusion.
▶ 0:39:04Our community has driven innovations in artificial intelligence. So this these methods are now being used in manufacturing, robotics and even drug discovery. Um all right so a lot has happened. The opportunity before us now is to amplify that return on investment significantly by uh fostering a US fusion industry. uh thanks to this progress we have a number of US uh based fusion startups that have raised significant capital and targeting pilot plants on ambitious timelines.
▶ 0:39:29I'll call out these uh companies but spun out of the public program universities and national labs and national labs in the case of Dr. Rian and MIT in the case of Dr. Mumgard. Uh so that investment has has helped lead to this. Um but you know significantly okay I should say the ambition for doing this on a short timeline um reflects the urgency of energy needs as well as the confidence in the scientific foundation that has been laid by the public program.
▶ 0:39:54Um however we have significant challenges ahead uh and they're shared by all these companies and we need to address them. Um without strong public private partnerships these companies will face unsustainable risk as they move forward. uh and the US risk seeding leadership in this in in this industry that it helped c help helped create. Okay. So partnership is essential. We need to pair the speed and the innovation of industry uh with the depth and specialized tools of the national labs and the universities. Uh we need to make these partnerships easier.
▶ 0:40:24It has been it's challenging sometimes to set up SVPs and creatives with the companies for national labs to really do the work we need to do. We need to improve these processes, come up with more flexible ways to partner. uh and and this this will not only benefit fusion, it will benefit other fields that were US competitiveness in fields like AI if we can get the national labs lined up with industry and moving faster. uh all right so we know what we need to do to get there. We've done you know we're excellent at planning in the US. We've launched a lot of planning studies. The FISAC long-range plan is one of them.
▶ 0:40:52The the plan is there alongside national academy studies that have called for the goal of fusion pilot plant industry-ledd. Um we're starting to make progress on this. I came here four years ago. I said, "Now's the time. We We have a plan. We need to act." That message I'm still going to deliver today because we're not quite We haven't acted yet, but we're starting. There are some programs that we founded.
▶ 0:41:13So, you look at the milestone program that's been mentioned, the Mfuse Partnership Program that's been mentioned, and new fire collaboratives that just just launched, and these unite labs, universities, and companies on shared challenges. This is very important. Um, we need new facilities. Those are called out in in the planning documents. Uh, to close the gaps to the pilot plan, we need new facilities. Eater will give us access to burning plasmas and experience in building at uh at industrial scale. Fusion prototypic neutron source.
▶ 0:41:39We need that to develop and understand and qualify materials that can withstand the harsh neutron neutron environment and a fusion device. Uh the the materials, excuse me, materials plasma exposure experiment choked up because it's my facility uh now being built at Oakidge. Uh we'll study plasma material interactions and develop solutions for fusion exhaust. Um, we need a blanket fuel cycle facility to close the gaps to commercialization.
▶ 0:42:04And I'll I'll end because I see my time is up by saying that uh we we know these facilities are being built in China, right? We see them happening and more. Okay? So, we need to act quickly. Um, one more message in if I have more time, I don't. I think I'm out. I'll just say we need to invest in the public sector because we need continue to push uh innovation forward. We need workforce. I'll add my thanks on the bill and just close to say that the decisive moment is now.
▶ 0:42:30With deliberate action, supporting facilities, partnerships, and innovation, we can ensure the US leads in turning fusion from scientific promise into commercial reality. Thank you.
▶ 0:42:40Boy, you're a fast speaker, too, Dr. Carter. I thought I could sit in here and listen to you all day and there for a minute. I thought I was going to have
▶ 0:42:48So, Dr. Dr. Mumgard, you're recognized for five minutes. Chairman Weber, Ranking Member Ross, members of the committee, thank you for opportunity to address you here today. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Conwell Fusion Systems. It's the largest fusion company in the United States and one of the largest fusion organizations in the world, second or third to the Chinese national program and the UK national program. Since my last appearance here four years ago, the fusion landscape has continued to evolve. We see a surge of private investment.
▶ 0:43:18We see significant scientific milestones. And we in the United States face an increasing sharp competition from foreign rivals, particularly China. We are at a critical moment transitioning from science to demonstration and the threshold of I want you to to take away three things here. Three things to know. First, a working fusion power plant is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and where. N has shown it's possible. The window is now open.
▶ 0:43:47At CFS, we're assembling our proof of concept machine, Spark. It's the largest largest next generation energy device in the United States. And in a couple years, it will show commercially relevant net electric, not net electricity, net energy from fusion reactions. You know, the entrepreneurs, they see this shift. In 2021, there was 23 fusion companies with about $2 billion. Now, there's 53 with 10 billion. 85% of that is in the United States. And it's not just venture capital or billionaires.
▶ 0:44:16It's sovereign wealth funds, its banks, it's energy companies, hyperscalers. These are blue chip companies. The markets have seen that this window is open. Other countries see the window is open. We have significant policy shifts from Germany, the UK, Japan, and most importantly from China. The second thing to know is this is a very high stakes race. This is trillions of dollars. Fusion is a foundational tool to build an advanced society.
▶ 0:44:43It transfers energy from being about natural resources, consumption, who has it, how do you get it, to being about technology. What do you know? How do you innovate? How fast can you build? AI makes this even more important because AI needs the type of power that fusion can make and fusion needs AI. It's a flywheel. And that's why you see AI companies investing in Fusion. And the race to fusion, that's that's a race to abundance. It's a hopeful message.
▶ 0:45:14We can't wait. At CFS, we are simultaneously finishing Spark uh while we're also designing ARC, a commercial fusion power plant that we will build in uh Richmond, Virginia. Now, the third thing to take away is the US is not positioned to win. China is the US's leadership is under threat because we haven't made the investments and we're not s we're not sufficiently organized.
▶ 0:45:38In China, we're witnessing a coordinated state organized intention to win with state sponsored companies with the buildouts of test stands at massive scale with multiple shots on goal. Analysis released this week from the special competitive special competitive studies project which I'm a part of estimates that China has invested $6.5 billion in new fusion facilities since the Nif shot. That's three times more than what we have spent over the same period. The US is nothing like this.
▶ 0:46:07We're at serious risk of falling behind unless it takes urgent action and soon. Our fusion program looks much like it did even 10 years ago. Its test stands are aging. Its infrastructure is old. It's focused on science. It's not focused on moving to commercialization. The GAO report recently said that there's only about 2% of DOE funding that's relevant to building a fusion industry. Okay. What do we do?
▶ 0:46:32So, the Fusion Industry Association and the SCSP Fusion Commission and others are calling the US government to do a one-time $10 billion investment in fusion research and demonstration. That's the level that it would take to do this. So, like what would that do? First, you would fund the commercialization programs that are already stood up. We've talked here about the milestone program. That program, it shares risks.
▶ 0:46:58The companies that have won it have real shots on goal and they say they need about $2 billion to be able to see what those power plants would look like before they start to construct them. That's way more than what is currently going into that program, but it's also the level that is near the level that's authorized. And then we would need another program on that milestone framework that would actually go and build a few of these power plants. And that would be, you know, not unreasonable. It's very consistent with what we've done in other advanced technologies.
▶ 0:47:27if you think about commercial space or or fision and if we spend that money now we won't have to spend 10x of that money later to catch up and so that would amplify a key American strength which is the competitive entrepreneurial ecosystem second we need to invest in commercially relevant R&D at national labs and universities no company or can do this alone there still science and technology to be done and that's where the crown jewels really really excel but they need the material ial test
▶ 0:47:57stands. They need the programs that build the workforce. They need the mandate to go work on that. And this means shifting funding and adding funding. It means shifting priorities. And all the road maps exist. The planning has been done. China is doing it. We just need to do it here. That's going to take like $4 billion. Third, we got to prime the pump for the future. Once we have the first power plants selling electricity, we're not done. We need workforce. We need supply chain. And we need a government program that can actually support that.
▶ 0:48:27That means an applied program. We should start planning that today. So in closing, the moment is now. And thank you for having me testify. I'm happy to hear what the the questions are.
▶ 0:48:38Thank you, Dr. Mumgar. The chair now recognizes the ranking member for at least five minutes.
▶ 0:48:43Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my apologies for uh being late. I did want to um thank you, Mr. chairman and ranking member Ross for this hearing. As we all know, uh, fusion has been a major focus of this committee and and myself for some time.
▶ 0:49:02And, uh, the National Ignition Facility at Lawrence, uh, it's still the only machine in the world that's actually achieved fusion ignition, has now achieved it nine times, uh, with a big new record, uh, output of 8.6 megajoules just in in April. So uh I agree that the milestone uh based public private partnership has is excellent. It's made a big difference.
▶ 0:49:29Um DOE uh finalized agreements with the uh first eight awardees just last year. Um we've seen as you've mentioned an infusion of private sector investment in uh fusion 3.5 billion in the last 15 months alone most of that going to companies located in the United States but as you point out China is ahead of us and I um I am
▶ 0:50:00very concerned that we are not making the investments necessary to be the winners in this. I am very much opposed to President Trump's budget Uh but I would like to say that when it comes to his specific request for fusion, it's moving in the right direction. Uh and I I I'm glad for that. Uh we introduced Chairman Obernolulti, uh Mr.
▶ 0:50:26buyers who who's here today, Miss Treyan, and myself, an amendment uh to the rules committee um to basically support the president's um uh budget. Unfortunately, for reasons I do not understand, that amendment that supported the president was not made in order. Um but I'm hoping that we will continue to work on a bipartisan basis to get to where we need uh to go.
▶ 0:50:53And I would like to mention that Chairman Olbernolulti joined me last month in introducing uh a bipartisan STEM education and skilled technical workforce for fusion act because we need to get you know like like Wayne Gretzky said you need to to skate to where the hockey puck is going to be. So I will just um close with this. Um if I may just turn to questions Mr. Chairman Dr.
▶ 0:51:22Uh, Mumgard, you talked about the need for a 10 billion dollar investment in fusion research and the demonstration effort and I think um that case has been made for some time. Uh, we've just never fulfilled it. Actually, we had the road map and China took the road map and actually funded it. So that would be helpful and you've outlined how it would be used, but we're not going to catch up through the annual budget process alone.
▶ 0:51:51If we're able to do this $10 billion one-time investment, what is next to get us to where we need to be? I mean, maybe Dr. Carter and others have a views on that as well.
▶ 0:52:05Yeah. So I think the idea of a a kick like a a a single program that can set the change in the trajectory and that isn't just about the change in trajectory of like annual budgets. It's actually about the change in trajectory of the mandate. And if we have a goal to have a fusion power plant be built in the United States and we have a program that is sufficiently scaled to help propel that not the whole cost the cost share of it.
▶ 0:52:32What that will naturally do is mean that the programs that are already running that are sort of going off and they're doing good work but it's not directed are naturally going to align to it. And we see that in other programs in in in other areas of science and technology at the transition to commercialization. So I don't think it's a $10 billion onetime program and then suddenly we need to be at $5 billion a year of appropriations.
▶ 0:52:54We actually have a good pot of money, but we do need to see that shift and and the level of commitment that's that's consistent with the ambition and commitment done in the private sector, frankly, and in other
▶ 0:53:04Yeah, Dr. Carter, you look eager to
▶ 0:53:07Absolutely. No, I I agree. This the $10 billion injection would would go a long way to setting us on the course as Bob says, Dr. Mgard, sorry. Um, in terms of getting facilities together, public private partnerships will need alongside of that the R&D programs to exploit these. Uh, those should be PPP. we should we should be working together on trying to derisk and and develop the technology. We'll need foundational programs. We need to continue to innovate. We we'll need workforce. We'll need to set up supply chains. Um there's all kinds of things that need to be done as part of that investment.
▶ 0:53:36I I I'd just like to say that the reduction in grant funding in research generally has not been helpful in advancing uh our quest to be number one and to achieve uh fusion as an energy source and we need to address that as well. With that um Mr. Chairman, ranking member, thank you for letting me pop ahead of others. Um and I yield back.
▶ 0:54:03Gentle lady yields back. chair now recognized himself for five minutes question. Dr. DM, in your testimony, you mentioned that academic programs are struggling to meet workforce demand uh which is resulting in shortages of technical staff and manufacturing expertise. I think we'd all agree on that. So suggestions from you.
▶ 0:54:24What immediate steps do you think Congress can take to strengthen those apprenticeship programs and technical training so that we can ensure the workforce is ready before large-scale deployment? What what do we need to do?
▶ 0:54:39Thank you so much for that question. So in my research group about 40% of the staff is technical staff and when we had to fill an open position we couldn't do it. So we have to demand depend on us finding someone with similar skills and upskill them in our lab. So an infusion of funds would allow us to build partnerships with community colleges and national labs and other fusion facilities to provide hands-on training for this. So a lot of the work that we do is very custommade.
▶ 0:55:08We're working in vacuum environments with strict materials requirements and then we also have tolerances that you have to meet. We're working in a high magnetic field. So these are very um unique things along with working with exotic materials. And so one example that you could look at is at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory. They actually started apprenticeship program where it all the only requirements is you're 18 over the age of 18 high school or GED requirement.
▶ 0:55:36You take classes at a community college and then you're full-time employed at the lab. to apprenticeship for four years and then you gain all these skills that you need and then it's a benefit for the whole fusion facility or whole fusion field. So expanding those programs building that into regional efforts like Wisconsin that already has a large manufacturing base.
▶ 0:55:57Thank you. You said in your in your opening remarks uh your testimony that we should include those community colleges. Are what are you experiencing? Is that is that happening? So right now I have what what I have is private donations to reach out to to start these seed foundation programs but we need more people dedicated to actually carry out the work. So part of it is the infrastructure uh we have on hand but also the money to uh get people to help with the upskilling.
▶ 0:56:27Okay. Dr. Mumgor, I'm coming to you. In your testimony, you mentioned how several Fusion Energy stakeholders are calling on the US government to make a one-time10 billion investment in fusion research and commercial development. Have I got that right? Good. What areas do you think should be prioritized to ensure that such an investment would deliver a longlasting competitive advantage for the United States?
▶ 0:56:55I know that's going to be a little tough because you don't know exactly what China is going to do, but what do you think?
▶ 0:57:00Yeah, we need to set our set on a course to get the first generation of fusion power plants built. So, that's a demonstration program to actually put steel in the ground on designs that we've reviewed and looked at and said they're likely to work. The milestone program is set up to do that. But when you look at the total bill that's going to be, you know, the companies have raised $10 billion. So, like the cost share there is billions of dollars. this.
▶ 0:57:24But that's not alone because like those tech those power plants they're with technology we have today like if you forced it today they would be kind of not great. We have technology that's in the pipeline. It's at the labs and universities. These are things like new materials, blankets, fuel cycles that a lot of good ideas but no way to really advance them or test them because we don't have the test stands and we don't have the mandate.
▶ 0:57:48And so directing money to build the test stands and set up those programs uh at places like Oakidge, places like Princeton, places like Pacific Northwest, that would be really really important. It's part of the long-range plan and that would naturally, you know, people vote with their feet on where things are going, scientists do, and that would create that outlet that people are looking for. Thank you. That followup for you, Dr. Carter, in your testimony, you highlighted the need for new facilities like the fusion prototypic protottypic neutron source. Say that 10 times.
▶ 0:58:18And the material plasma exposure e experiment impacts to derisk the path to pilot plants. How would you see this $10 billion actually being distributed to those
▶ 0:58:32Yeah, I mean the the so the $10 billion that the facilities we're talking about is really four that we're targeting that I mentioned. The new ones that we're spinning up the the test stands that Dr. from Mumgard mentioned um they might be depending on how you do it and we really like to have a a blanket test stand that you can test in a nuclear space you can actually generate tridium and do all the things you need to do to to understand closing the fusion fuel cycle which is a big hurdle to comm commercialization to do that it might be in the billion dollar class but I think we can find
▶ 0:59:02ways to do it uh in partnership with uh with the private sector as well as looking at you know out of the box thinking and how to get this done that could bring it lower but that's what you're talking about so you're looking at 10 billions would go a long way to getting you to those facilities.
▶ 0:59:18I'm close to out of time, but there are often conflicting timelines regarding fusion energy which becomes commercially viable with some rejections going into the 2030s while other extended in the future given these different timelines. How how soon I know this is a guess a little bit of guesswork here. Y'all can all think about this. Can we realistically achieve fusion energy? No pressure. Just give me month and day.
▶ 0:59:45So, I'm gonna I'm gonna yield back and recognize the ranking member for as at least five minutes.
▶ 0:59:53Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I think we all can agree that fusion is um in addition to an energy issue is a national security issue and energy security is national security. Recent analysis shows, as we've discussed, that China is moving fast, in fact faster than we are.
▶ 1:00:17At the same time, we have allies, the UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, and others that bring world-class facilities and industrial strengths. This is a question for all of you. So, if each of you wants to address it, I don't mind using all my time on it.
▶ 1:00:36Um, do you support a tech agnostic US-led trusted fusion partners initiative focused on commercialization, supply chain onshoring so that we and our allies together can build first and keep Chinese tech and suppliers out of this critical ecosystem. Um, and whoever wants to go first, raise your hand. Okay, Dr. Morg,
▶ 1:01:07uh, in general, yes. So, the the fusion world in the future, fusion industry will will necessarily be global that the types of equipment you need to make is is of high variety and the designs will benefit from having a global market. And so, it makes sense to have US and allies working together.
▶ 1:01:25We should also recognize though that a overly constricted program would be detrimental. We want to encourage ideas and competition as well. So like we don't want to end up in a situation that is we're all going to the exact same place the exact same way.
▶ 1:01:40Um but that does mean that we can leverage each other's strengths and I think when you look at the you know Japanese the UK they have distinct strengths and the US has distinct strengths and and working together on the areas where strength reinforces strength is definitely what we should be doing. um how to carve in the China angle becomes a little bit difficult difficult because there are some uh in the middle if you think about some of the places in Europe and some of the places uh say India who which side are they on
▶ 1:02:09does anybody have anything to add to that Dr.
▶ 1:02:13Yeah. Thank you, Ranking Member Ross. You know, I I totally agree. Energy security is national security and uh we want to incentivize as much um benefit to the US as we can and that includes not just making fusion power in the US, but making fusion hardware in the US. So, I'm I'm uh you know, very excited by anything that helps do that. And again, thank you to Representative Tenny and Byer for uh pushing forward the fusion advanced manufacturing parody act.
▶ 1:02:37Great. Looks like Dr. DM has something to add.
▶ 1:02:40Yeah, I can just add pretty quickly. So, um, as a US science envoy last year, I went with a US delegation through Germany. And so, we had a great opportunity to visit our allies and what they had and see on site what they're doing to advance fusion energy and how we can work together to not duplicate efforts but amplify what we're doing to accelerate the path forward. So, one example is like trading of codes or modeling tools and capabilities.
▶ 1:03:08they have fabulous public private partnerships which is large spaces with many labs next to each other to foster innovation across that. So looking at those kind of models and in the UK I'm working with my colleagues on how do we have companion efforts that support each other looking at how do we advance heating of these plasmas. So those are kind of a couple of examples that helps both of us us while out without uh duplicating efforts.
▶ 1:03:34Okay. Um and then would there if if if this is a good idea, what concrete steps in the next 12 to 24 months should the federal government take to emphasize this across DOE, the state department and the department of commerce. Any
▶ 1:03:55Y the UK is the closest. So they have facilities that are for tridium and blanket breeding that are very significant multiund million dollar facilities. We could get access to them but it would require the US government having the agreement but also putting in some money to fund people to go do the work there the same way they're funding people do work there basically to compete for time. That's a concrete example of those facilities.
▶ 1:04:19Maybe we can tell the president before he comes home. Um does anybody else have any suggestions? Yes, Dr. K.
▶ 1:04:25Well just amplify what what Dr. Mgard said I mean we have strong relationships with UK Japan and Germany and the like been working for a long time but we do need that mandate that investment from the US side and agreements to to clarify how we're working together how that's going to work there's you know now we're getting into a space where IP is being generated how do we share that so that's going to require some high level discussions and agreements to get into place plus the funding yeah
▶ 1:04:49okay thank you and I yield back I only have four seconds
▶ 1:04:53gentle lady yields back the gentleman from Tennessee is now recognized for uh
▶ 1:04:58Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate you holding this this committee hearing. Uh to each of the four panelists, I know most of you all very well. Thank you so much. Uh to our dear friends at ONL, thank you for doing everything very well. Uh as most of you know, I'm the Republican lead on the Fusion Caucus.
▶ 1:05:19Uh my other day job is I'm the chairman of the Energy and Water Subcommittee of Appropriations which funds all of the great work that our Department of Energy um including fusion.
▶ 1:05:32Um, I have some questions and I open it up because uh I so appreciate the fact that we've got a great blend of academia and business and and I I meet with so many great researchers whether from OL or from Princeton but the fact that there's been such a great infusion of of capital uh in into uh from the private sector so is there's a great balance out there
▶ 1:06:02uh between R&D and seeing all this great capital coming in and and the promise of of us getting there. U so my question for you all is with limited budgets and and we are are going to continue to fund Fusion, but with limited budgets and choices to make, where should our federal dollars in fusion investment be going? and I'm solicitous of of all four of your
▶ 1:06:33Well, I'll lead off. I think I mean, as I've said earlier and as you know, um we we have laid out this plan. We have a strategy on where we need to invest. I think that's been made clear in consensus documents. Um we you know, as we push towards the the goal of energy of a fusion power plant, there's clear things that we have not invested enough in that we need to put money into. The facilities I mentioned, the R&D programs to go with them. I'll end with that.
▶ 1:06:56Thank you. The program right now is is not in line with the recommendations of the nationalmies, the fusion industry association, the uh long range planning of the fees act because we haven't funded the programs that are needed to do the applied use of harnessing fusion power. So the materials, the test stands, fusion prototype neutron source, the tridium, the blanket, that stuff has not seen significant funding.
▶ 1:07:27We still have a program that's very much on operating plasma physics facilities that are very large. They're expensive and some of them are a bit old. We can collaborate and get results from other nations on some of this. We need to shift towards that. That was laid out in the uh communitydriven plan that that shift needed to happen. It's laid out in the long range plan from FISAC. We just need to do the shift.
▶ 1:07:50Thank you. And to support that shift, universities are really critical in being they're able to be agile and pivot pretty quickly to address needs not only currently that are being experienced by private companies, but anticipate the needs down the line. So one example was I had we were building my experiment.
▶ 1:08:09We were running it for a while and we had a failure and I could just go to the building across the street and find experts in magnet technology and interfacing and just tell them about my problem and they were like whoa my expertise can help fusion. I didn't realize that and so that can be a catalyst not only now but down the line.
▶ 1:08:30Thank you. Uh thank you representative Fleshman and um you know I I think we all agree we we need to win this race for America and part of that is sustaining the great science we have. That is why the US is the world leader in fusion is because of the uh great universities and national labs uh that that have brought us to this point. Um I just wanted to uh reiterate something I said in my testimony which is I think one of the biggest returns the government return on investment the government could see is from a fusion demonstration program for a couple reasons.
▶ 1:09:00um one to match the intensity of the renew you know reinvigorated Chinese effort but also uh to send a strong signal to the market and bring more private money off the sidelines to invest in this industry. Thank you.
▶ 1:09:11Thank you. I really appreciate all four of your comments. Uh and if I may just a suggestion as as my colleagues on the dis know I chair eight energy related caucuses uh including the fusion caucus but the national labs caucus which is tremendous and now most recently the American dominance and energy caucus. The best thing about the caucus format is it's bipartisan. We have Republicans and Democrats.
▶ 1:09:39Every once in a while senators come on in and visit academia. So, I welcome you. All of our caucuses that I run are free. I welcome you to come on in and speak with us. Uh I know Mr. Weber, Chairman Weber, and Chairman Byer, uh frequent our our caucuses. They're convivial, but they're productive. So, uh whenever we have these events, please check with us and you're always welcome. With that, I yield back. Gentleman yields back.
▶ 1:10:08The chair now recognizes the gentle lady from Oregon, Representative Selenus, for her at least five minutes.
▶ 1:10:15Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our ranking member for the hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for being here. Dr. DM, you mentioned the Great Lakes Fusion Energy Alliance and suggested there would be value, all of you have, in public, private, regional hubs to expand the fusion ecosystem. This sounds a lot like the hydrogen hub and direct air capture hub programs created by the bipartisan infrastructure law.
▶ 1:10:37However, we also have the Department of Commerce TechHubs program created by the Chipsson Science Act where several tech hubs already focus on areas relevant to the fusion industry from material science to advanced man manufacturing or in Oregon's case semiconductors. Are you suggesting we need a dedicated regional fusion hub program of sorts or is there potential to expand coordination with existing e efforts like the regional tech hubs?
▶ 1:11:03Thank you for your question. So as I mentioned, fusion has really unique challenges that are different than the semiconductor industry. So these ultra high vacuum environments, these exotic alloys and things like that. So I think a targeted effort that really focuses on that. And the reason why we've worked a lot in the Midwest, specifically in Wisconsin, is because we've built so many experiments. We've worked with a lot of small machine shops.
▶ 1:11:29And so we built through this relationship they've understand understand our challenges but to scale up to a large industry will take a coordinated targeted effort to really understand the uniqueness of those. So I could see some cross collaboration but really a a hyperfocus on on the fusion aspects too. Thank you. That's helpful. Would anyone else care to weigh in?
▶ 1:11:50Sure. Well I I I'll support what Dr. DM said. I think that these kind of regional hubs could serve many purposes for growing the ecosystem. We talked about these test stands that we need to grow. It you know might be a model in a regional hub where you have investment from the industry from from the government uh from philanthropy from all over the place to try to build up these these hubs. You could follow the the model of other consortia where you have companies buying in to get access to facilities getting shared IP out of it. Um in addition there's a workforce angles.
▶ 1:12:19This these hubs provide a focus point for drawing in. you want to coordinate the community colleges, the trade schools, and have them all be on the same page on what we're trying to do. And so, that provides an opportunity to do that, too. So, I'm fully supportive of that idea.
▶ 1:12:33Uh, on the idea of like how to blend fusion with other things, I think it's always important to start with the end in mind. A working fusion industry is a very large industry. And so that means in the future we are likely to have things like academic departments that just do fusion the same way that we have academic departments that do aerospace or that do fision. And so in that framework like when's the first time we see a fusion hub because eventually we would have to have one.
▶ 1:13:02Thank you. Dr. Regan, did you want to jump in?
▶ 1:13:04Yeah, I'd like to just uh double down on Dr. Mumgard's point. I think um uh something that we need to see more of is cross-disciplinary programs that bring together folks from many different disciplines. Mechanical engineering, electrical, thermal, nuclear systems engineering, all these things have to come together to not just do the fusion science but but now build fusion power
▶ 1:13:24Thank you. So um a few of you have mentioned this on the intellectual property side and cross collaboration as we get into this world and I think I I visited um Helion a couple summers ago. this was a big concern especially when it comes to protecting IP and China.
▶ 1:13:40Do you do any of you have suggestions for how we move ahead and how the US can be a player um for the industry in protecting that intellectual property and making sure that it doesn't fall into the hands of adversaries to any of you.
▶ 1:13:56Sorry if this is a question you weren't anticipating. I'm sure my staff is what like where did that come from? It's not it's not in my list of questions.
▶ 1:14:02It's a very it's a very good question. Um, you know, the first thing is IP is really only useful if you're able to make a like a large industrial return on it, right?
▶ 1:14:12And so we can oftentimes get too hung up on the IP um versus like what is the pull that's going to pull the industry into existence. And the easiest areas of IP are areas that everyone needs because that means the companies themselves have a a reason to share. um whether or not that falls into ad, you know, adversary hands. Well, if we don't build something United States, it's not going to matter if the adversary has it or not. We have to actually do both.
▶ 1:14:42Thank you. Does anyone else care to weigh in, Dr. Rican?
▶ 1:14:46Yeah, I I think this this brings up another important topic, too, which is um the balance between what you publish and what you protect inside the company. Uh so, I think that's something that's come up a few times. I think it it is important to publish and put out scientific uh uh you know work to stress test your what your company is claiming against the thousands of brilliant researchers in the US. Um and it's also critically important to have a robust portfolio of you know patents and trade secrets. Uh just to add one more thing to what Dr. Mumgard said.
▶ 1:15:13Uh another big advantage in addition to IP is is knowhow. You know the expertise, the talent base and capabilities. So the kind of machines that we're our companies are building and you know that could be built at national labs um do provide an edge that you know you need those to make progress. Thank you.
▶ 1:15:28Thank you. I'm just about out of time. I yield back.
▶ 1:15:31Gentle yields back. The chairman now recognizes gentleman from Colorado for five minutes. Let's go with gentle lady from South Carolina for five minute at least five
▶ 1:15:51Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing today on fusion energy. And I would also like to thank our witnesses for being here. Um, the United States is at a critical point for our energy infrastructure. Our energy output has stagnated over the last 20 years while the demand for energy is increasing rapidly across the board.
▶ 1:16:16Fusion energy as part of an all of the above solution offers the United States a chance to maintain both energy and technological dominance to keep rates low and to build out our industry once more.
▶ 1:16:33From industry suppliers to university research research partners, the third district of South Carolina is proud to have a role to play in the future fusion in in the future fusion energy landscape. Many of our constituents also work at the Savannah River National Lab, which has decades of expertise in working with tridium, an essential fuel for the nuclear fusion process.
▶ 1:17:02As fusion becomes a viable energy source, expertise in handling, processing, and using tridium will be vital in establishing a safe and secure process to expand our energy infrastructure. So I would like to open um my question to the entire panel.
▶ 1:17:24What steps are the fusion energy sciences program and the fusion industry taking to build a robust safety culture around operations with tridium in the construction and operation of fusion plant um pilot
▶ 1:17:45This actually dovtales nicely with the IP question. So the industry has a a pretty consensus view that in issues related to safety and public acceptance, we should be very open and collaborative with each other. So that means when we develop fuel cycles, when we have uh issues about uh safety cultures, we we share. And so there's actually a Tridium working group that the DOE convenes uh it's international that pulls in people from uh all the different users for Tridium and they share best practices.
▶ 1:18:15They tour each other's facilities. We actually just hosted them at uh out in Devons at the Spark facility. And so that's an example. We have a strong culture already in this. The other thing is that when we cite these facilities, these are new and novel facilities. And that means you have to go into communities with an education mindset and a listening mindset that we can't go and put fusion facilities, you know, blackbox facilities, you know, in places that people don't know they're there or that they don't have a consult The good news is that
▶ 1:18:45when we do go and say, "Hey, would you like this? Would you like to learn about it?" We see broad engagement and we see favorable attitudes. So, we've cited two facilities, one in Massachusetts and one in Virginia. And in both cases, we were surprised at the the level of of questions, very very educated, and also the excitement about a new thing in their community. And they asked questions around safety and tridium, and we were able to to turn them to people like the at Savannah National uh Savannah River.
▶ 1:19:14So, thank you so much for your question. So, Savannah River National Lab has great experience and they're also leading a a fire collaborative that's focused on the fuel cycle. And I think it's really important because you're leveraging their historical um you know expertise in that. They're also engaging universities to in that work as well.
▶ 1:19:35And um I'm part of that that fire collaborative and part of what we do is around uh tridium u byproduct material and also engaging the public in that. So that provides a an important space in the safety aspect and also the sighting and and going out into communities as
▶ 1:19:54Thank you. just quickly add I think the the national labs provide especially Santa River on tridium provide a wealth of expertise and I think that's essential to share that as we develop a stance on how we regulate and license fusion devices so certainly organization agreement states is leading the way on that with Tennessee taking a lead um and I I think making good use of the knowledge and expertise at Savannah River at Oakidge and other places is going to be essential to doing that
▶ 1:20:24thank Thank you. My time's almost up, so I'll yield back.
▶ 1:20:28Gentle lady yields back. Chair now recognize gentle lady from North Carolina for at least five minutes.
▶ 1:20:32Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here with us today. I'm proud to represent North Carolina's fourth district, home to three research universities, including North Carolina Central University, one of the 10 H.B.CU in the state. Dr.
▶ 1:20:50Carter, what are the most impactful actions Congress and the federal government can take to strengthen and expand partnerships between our national laboratories and HB.CU to build the skilled workforce needed for the future maturation of fusion energy technology.
▶ 1:21:09One that comes to mind is Hampton University and their Starlight Fusion project, which demonstrates how direct investment in H.B.CU research can ignite broader participation and innovation infusing
▶ 1:21:30Thank you for that question. I think it's an excellent question. The um I'll say a few things. First and foremost, Hampton. I'm going to visit there October 1st to to tour the facilities and meet with Calvin Low who I work with on uh workforce fusion workforce activity actually. So very glad to have connection and grow that connection with them. I think you know university partners of national lab to me are absolutely essential. I mean it's it's a partnership and in getting at the innovation that the universities can provide and what comes with it. I mean first and foremost the innovation what comes with it is the students and the workforce, right?
▶ 1:22:00And so they come along and that's a huge benefit to us. So how do we make this a stronger connection? So Dwee has funded some activities under the the renew program and Oakidge has led a couple of these that have been focused on getting regional universities including H.B.CU uh involved in our programs.
▶ 1:22:16And so this has led to uh internships uh a a fusion uh energy boot camp that one of our renew programs is starting modeled after the nuclear boot camp that has worked well in that industry to try to uh give students at those institutions and importantly the faculty. The way you maintain this relationship is not just picking up the students and bringing them in. You want to engage the faculty and have them be part of your programs, feel like they have a leadership role. So, we need to have that happen with with Calvin at Hampton uh and other and and other institutions like that. Yeah.
▶ 1:22:47Um following up to that, can you share your experience with international students at the national labs and universities and the role they play in pushing fusion research forward in our Yeah, I mean the we've always got the best and brightest to come to this country because of what this country represents and the opportunities. Um they want to be part of this program because they see what what we're doing in fusion energy.
▶ 1:23:13Uh so you know my role at UCLA, my role now at Oakidge, you know, international students have been key. They they've come into our programs. They've made tremendous contributions. All the the science that's been pushed forward, you can point to people coming from all over the world coming to the US. I'll point out to the students that have come through my program at UCLA, all of them have remained within the US as they go on their career and they've made, you know, tremendous contributions in doing that. At the national labs, look at my division now.
▶ 1:23:39We have uh amazing staff that come from all over the world that are there contributing their scientific talent, engineering talent uh to pushing forward fusion. It it's it's it's essential. Um we need to embra, you know, embrace getting the best and the brightest here to make this work. That's been how the US has gotten where it is now and we need to keep doing that.
▶ 1:23:58thank you for that. Dr. Mumgard or Dr. Rean, from a private sector perspective, how important is it that the United States has a sustainable international talent pipeline to pull into um specified fields such as fusion
▶ 1:24:18It it's essential. Um fusion is a global exercise. The fusion process is a universal thing. And so the investments made around the globe to create talent. That's what we we we we thrive on. We pull people in from Japan, Korea, Germany, and we need to keep that pipeline going. You know, we use the 01 visa for Fusion expertise.
▶ 1:24:42Um, and that if you look at just the tech industry overall, that that's been a backbone of the tech industry. Um, and so Fusion's no different in the sense that a smart single individual can make a society level contribution at the birth of an industry and and they're they're
▶ 1:25:03Yeah, thank you. I I'll add to that a little bit. Yeah, I I I fully agree with what Dr. Mumgard and Dr. Carter said. I mean, we need the best and the brightest to come here. And uh specifically, we've talked about some of the capabilities that our allies have like the UK and Canada are, you know, they have Canada is where most most of our tridium comes from. So it is essential to bring in that talented workforce especially when there's international capabilities that we want to benefit from here in the US.
▶ 1:25:26Thank you. That's my time. Mr. Chair, I yield back.
▶ 1:25:28Gentle lady yields back. The gentleman from North Carolina is recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:25:32Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh thanks to our witnesses for your testimony today. Uh be honest though, I found it a little bit distressing and I I just want to have a quick conversation with you. I want to gain some clarity on this. Um we have talked several of you talked about we're really falling behind China and that's happening at a at a very rapid pace and I I really want to kind of understand why. I know m Dr. Bumgard excuse me Dr.
▶ 1:25:58Mumgard uh you you talked about how since 2022 China has spent $6.5 billion dollars on investing in fusion research. uh and and during that same period of time, the US has uh barely done just over 30% of of that investment.
▶ 1:26:15Uh but I I I really kind of want to wrap my mind around what's happened here because if we're falling behind and we've made massive strategic investments, you all are here with your hands out for another10 billion, right? Yet the testimony that I've heard today really can only be characterized as as we're failing. And I'm I'm genuinely not saying that as an attack on you. I'm saying that from the perspective of of an American. This is a very bipartisan committee.
▶ 1:26:45Uh the work that we do is critically important for the future of our market economy and our national security. But we we've done something wrong here because we've invested $40 billion over the last several decades in fusion research and we're behind. How did that happen? And is China stealing our research and development? Are they smarter than we are?
▶ 1:27:09Are their strategic better because they're doing a significant amount of investment in a very short period of time when we are basically running a slow burn of investments across a long period of time. And and I say this only from the perspective of I hate losing and I'm not willing to let this country lose to China in this space. How do we fix it? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:27:36I also hate losing um uh the what they what they've done is they've done the same playbook they did in other areas. So they're not a leader in innovation. We are a long-term investment leader in innovation. But when the time comes to put something at risk at scale, they have the ability to mobilize to do that in a way that the US doesn't.
▶ 1:27:59They have a centralized control system that allows them to pull large amounts of money, capital, and organizations to go and build things that need to be built. And fusion needs things built. And so the fusion advances don't happen just in labs of single PIs of bright people that come here. They happen in coordinated fashion by building multi-billion dollar facilities. And the Chinese have seen that those facilities will pay off. They saw Nif and they immediately said, "Let's build one that's a little bit bigger. It's not as advanced.
▶ 1:28:28It's probably a generation behind in technology, but we'll make up for it in speed, scale, and coordination. And like the reports are that there's people working 24 hours a day on building that. There's students on CS because that's the playbook hard and fast the minute the window opens. We sort of are still debating whether the windows open and that's to our detriment.
▶ 1:28:54Yeah, just to follow up on what Dr. Mgard said. I mean I think the investment that's been made there's been tremendous payoff. I mean the the US has innovated and got us to the point where we are the world, you know, China is building things that were designed and developed and and ideulated in the US, right? Um so the moment that we have before us is to actually carry it forward. So we we've set the ground, we set the stage, we set the ball, right? We just need to spike it and that's where we are. It's not that we failed. If we don't take action now, we will.
▶ 1:29:23So now's the time to to to move forward and we have to change our our man our approach and our mindset. We're we're trying to get to a commercialized energy source. We got a lot of R&D to do, but we have to change the way we're approaching it.
▶ 1:29:36Uh just a few comments, too. You know, I I agree. You know, we can't afford to lose this and and I wouldn't have we wouldn't have started our company if we didn't think we could win this. Our company could win this and America could win this. Um I want to reassure you. I think we we still do have the lead, but now is the time to to act on that lead.
▶ 1:29:52Um and I I point to programs that NASA CS program has come up as a great example like that is that is a great example where we were the ones that developed the technology we got to space we lost that industry to Russia but then the NASA CDS program came in and with a catalytic investment of you know that was around $800 million that reasserted US leadership we now own that commercial space industry again and that investment is worth you know 500,000x uh what the government put in that for an American industry
▶ 1:30:20people really drive innovation here. Uh and we see it time and time again and universities spin that right and and we also provide workforce. But if we start contracting those those governments the sorry federal investments in those sectors we lose people. Right now we're at risk of people leaving for other sectors I mentioned but also other countries.
▶ 1:30:42the day my grant ended um this year in a in a you know federal uncertainty level of funding I actually coincidentally received a foreign talent recruitment email and so when you're under in stress of like how I'm going to fund these early career researchers to keep this innovation drive that will then you know impact private industry that's really scary right and so you're looking at how you can keep supporting that innovation so I think making that in in that certainty to continue
▶ 1:31:12with federal funds is is critically
▶ 1:31:15Thank you for your responses and uh I appreciate the commentary. The only thing I tell you is outcomes matter. They're everything. We've got to win. Thank you, Chairman.
▶ 1:31:24Gentleman yields back. The chairman recognizes Dr. Foster for five minutes.
▶ 1:31:27Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to our witnesses. Um let's say I let's see I guess I'll start with Dr. Mumgard. Um you know, the question was coming. What's the status of your testing of production coils and do how many of them have survived a full energy quench and so on?
▶ 1:31:43Yeah. So our uh uh we use a machine called a togeamac. It's a basically a
▶ 1:31:48I understand the machine very well. Okay. I'm old friends. I'm high school friends with Mike Zarnstoorf who known to many of you.
▶ 1:31:54Um we've produced uh about 95% of all the required uh magnet uh pancakes.
▶ 1:31:59How many of them have survived a full energy quench?
▶ 1:32:01Uh we've quenched one and it has survived and we did it intentionally. full energy full coil
▶ 1:32:06full energy that the full magnetic
▶ 1:32:08full magnetic energy
▶ 1:32:09of the full system so this was running above nominal current
▶ 1:32:13uh you have to adjust for it's a single coil but yeah it's it was it's not quite full energy it was like maybe it's you have to do a geometry adjustment but very very significant um and uh with the quench protection system working um the same one that we uh developed after the previous coil um which we intentionally quenched uh and intentionally destroyed to learn how it worked Yeah. Okay. And so that could you briefly say what is the quench detection and prevention and and you know quench spreading mechanism?
▶ 1:32:42Yeah. It's a a series of heaters um
▶ 1:32:45it's very similar what CERN uses to take down their
▶ 1:32:48what we invented at Fermy Lab to make our Agnes hive many years ago. Okay. So this is good. I've been telling you for like a decade you're going to need a very serious quench spreading system. And I'm glad they Yeah.
▶ 1:32:59It works.
▶ 1:33:01It's worked once your lifetime. You got to you got to cycle this I don't know 30 times or something. I don't know what your you know the lifetime number of quenches. All right. Anyway, it's good to see that you're doing testing but it's really really important. You've raised a lot of money and if you have a problem with magnets we've seen in high energy physics uh large accelerator projects canled because they built everything but the magnet didn't work. So keep your eyes focused on the magnets and I will continue asking that that question.
▶ 1:33:29Uh the other thing is the energy density on the diverter. Do you have a design that actually at least on paper might work?
▶ 1:33:36Yeah, that's a a good one. Um, so actually we do. It's a called an advanced diverter and interestingly the TCV tokamac in a a collaboration recently showed the experimental results that look really really promising that that actually spreads the heat out and that validates modeling done at Oakidge and and a couple other places that show that by basically magnetically extending the region of the plasma interaction, you can get a a pretty good light bulb.
▶ 1:34:01Okay. All right. So, I I look forward to I look forward to see that being published in the whole stimulation known. Um, let's see. Uh, Mr. Rian, um, do you have a parameter set for something that would actually make energy make energy economically? I mean, what what is the cost per target, the the cost per pulse, the efficiency, just a high level parameter that how much energy, how fusion energy do you expect per target?
▶ 1:34:28Yeah, thank thank you for the question. Um so the scale of our so right now we're building what's called a demonstration system that's intended to get net facility gain that stores about 80 megales to produce 100 plus mega of output in a commercial version of that where we're cycling it not once a day but once every few seconds we're aiming for you know facility level gains of say like five or so five or six uh so you're storing say in this case maybe it's 100 you're getting five to six hundred megles of output
▶ 1:34:54all right and so the yeah do you have a do you have a published parameter set that says okay you have five okay Uh yeah, we we uh I'd refer you to we we published a paper called AMPs. It's affordable, manageable, uh practical, scalable. Um it was a set of criteria, a technical road map. We put it on the archive in April and it's published in physics of plasmas earlier this month.
▶ 1:35:12Okay. And so then the big difference between what's been proposed with normal Zpinch devices is that you have a a more efficient drive mechanism, which is basically, you know, I think of it as an induction lac with a with a beam shorted with a piece of copper for a tapered impedance line. Is that pretty much what it is?
▶ 1:35:30It's uh we use a technology called an impedance match marks generator. So it's a evolution of the the old school marks generator that gets pulse compressed uh on facilities like Z. Um
▶ 1:35:39but it's got it's got um induction. It's an it's got a bunch of ferite or something equivalent in it.
▶ 1:35:45Oh no, no f actually. So the IMG is an improvement on the linear transformer driver which is a Russian technology. So we we improved and simplified a Russian
▶ 1:35:54uh to to make the IMG or the National Labs did. Okay. And now we're building on that.
▶ 1:35:58All right. And do you have worries about the lifetime of the switch, whatever you're using?
▶ 1:36:02Yeah. Um, yeah. So, so the the switch uh and the capacitor are the two components we have to um have have long lifetimes for and we're we're working on that. Yeah. Yeah. So, so
▶ 1:36:14with our demonstration system, we only need, you know, a few thousand tens of thousands of shots. The switches we make today are are plenty capable of that. And there are known pathways to extend those lifetimes to a reprated power. Good to see you're working on the important problems. Okay.
▶ 1:36:27Oh, no, no. We This is very important to us at the very start of the company to make sure that we have a path practical path forward to make a a power plant that lasts for decades.
▶ 1:36:35Okay. And let's see if chairman can I have another 15 seconds 20
▶ 1:36:39if you'll do it in English.
▶ 1:36:41Okay. All right. All right. Sorry. All right. M Miss DM you should add to your list of spinouts from University of Wisconsin Plasma Physics a company called Electronic Theater Controls. 50 years ago, I was working in the plasma physics lab there a as a as a young student and on the evenings after we'd completed our work, I kind of took advantage of a lot of that equipment to build our prototype.
▶ 1:37:02I took advantage to computers at Oakidge, a PDP10 that we could get access through that lab and that was we didn't have a crater but we were had a very uh strong set of um of uh of uh we we made a lot of use of the technical resources of the plasma physics lab on an informal basis and that was necessary to get our company going and that company now it's $450 million a year 1500 employees fully owned by the employees who owned it out in Middleton Wisconsin so claim credit for that
▶ 1:37:32one, too.
▶ 1:37:34Thank you. I will.
▶ 1:37:35The gentleman yields back. The g the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Indiana, Dr. Barrett, for his five
▶ 1:37:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman, ranking member, and I always appreciate all of you witnesses taking the time to share with this committee and us your insights into whatever the program is that we're discussing. But you know the thing that's of interest to me uh um I think there's a lot of sentiment to see that all sources of energy are available or on the table. We've got fossil fuels, we got nuclear, uh we've got solar and wind and there's been some concerns about that and now we're talking about fusion and Dr.
▶ 1:38:13Rean, you mentioned the return on investment. So I guess here's my question. And you know, Secretary Wright uh recently said that um Fusion Energy was a source of limitless, reliable Americanmade energy, and I think we want to take back that lead uh in the energy production.
▶ 1:38:31So, so can you explain um why this fusion energy is important as a potential future energy source and what role envision uh you envision fusion energy can play in the future mix and how fusion can contribute to the concept of energy abundance and energy security.
▶ 1:38:51I guess what I'm really trying to get at if we're going to re if we're going to invest in that and I know it takes investment sometimes u to get things moving and I really appreciate what the national labs do. I really appreciate what uh the private industry does and I really really appreciate what the land grant universities do. So I guess I'm trying to I'm I guess my question is u tell me why I should should invest in fusing energy and that kind of research.
▶ 1:39:19Am I going to get a return on my and that's to everyone.
▶ 1:39:24Uh thank you representative Baird. Yeah I we we fully agree you know we need all of the above. Energy is prosperity. We want more of it. More is better. And um just you know as has been discussed earlier energy is a critical factor in the AI race. So I see what fusion offers is a new and you know revolutionary source of energy that um you know it can be low cost. The fuel will last us forever. Um and uh I think yeah that that's an important capability and like Dr.
▶ 1:39:50Mumgard said it's not a question of of if it's going to happen but it's going to be when and where and we want that to be in America as soon as Energy energy is prosperity like we've built this country on energy. Uh you cannot have a rich country without energy. But of course, energy comes historically with externalities, right? There's a lot of people involved that are that are uh around an energy facility. And if the energy facility is very spread out, there's a lot of people involved in in uh in that.
▶ 1:40:18And of course, if the energy facility consumes or emits things, there's a lot of people that are affected by that. Um what fusion does is it gives you energy with very small externalities. So that means it's like not just energy sovereignty for the nation, it's energy sovereignty for the community. it it puts things into a a plant that you build this plant, you put the parts there, and you have energy. You don't have pipelines coming in that can be shut off, and you don't have smoke stacks of stuff coming out that can go places.
▶ 1:40:48And so that that's a different paradigm. Um, uh, it's it takes a bunch of tradeoffs out of the energy equation of like who's giving up something for someone to have energy. And it, you know, conceptually it's a facility that you build like you build a power plant today that hooks to the grid like you build a the grid today that has operators that are like the people that are there today that has fabricators that are like the people there today. And so it's a continuation.
▶ 1:41:14It's not a disruption of the energy system in terms of delivery and those make it very very very attractive
▶ 1:41:22and I think it's an important part of a broader po portfolio because a lot of different communities can rely on other different forms of energy but what it brings to you is this energy density that's just unfathomable. So it's a mil you get a million times more energy out when you burn than you when you burn oil.
▶ 1:41:40So, as an example, your whole entire lifetime, if you want to power it by coal, you have to burn 280 tons of coal, the equivalent fuel would just be you take heavy hydrogen out of two bathtubs full of water and six laptop batteries. I mean, that could transform everything as far as how we power and and how we enter the next phase of
▶ 1:42:05Anyone else? You know, the other thing that's interesting to me is our electric the people in my district, we're talking about a significant increase in the need for energy because of these data centers. And so I guess I guess I was kind of interested in how that might fit, how fusion might fit in that ball game. So, but anyway, my time's about up and I really appreciate you being here. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:42:32Gentlemen yields back. Chairman, I recognize gentleman from Arkansas for five minutes. Alaska. Uh,
▶ 1:42:38Alaska, Arkansas for Texas. They're all the same.
▶ 1:42:42Is not the same. I am two and a half times the size of Texas.
▶ 1:42:45I'm sorry. The gentleman's time is Okay. Uh, start the clock. All right. so we talked a lot about uh the sort of egalitarian motives of fusion power, and I'm a big supporter of fusion power. Um, you know, we we talk about what a gift this would be to humanity really. Um, but we're at the same time we're talking about how we need to beat China, right?
▶ 1:43:15And so we talked earlier in the hearing about um about intellectual property, balancing that with collaboration, right? How do you maintain those aspects of intellectual property that really allow us to beat China and be sustainable in in defeating our adversaries when it comes to this new power source? And and my question um is to Dr.
▶ 1:43:36Reagan, how do how do you think we should reconcile these two concepts and what do we do about the the capital investment that will be displaced potentially pretty rapidly by a fusion
▶ 1:43:51Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Representative Begage. Um, you know, I I think you could do both. You know, we can we can win and beat China while at the same time deploying first in America a a fantastic new power source that provides, you know, uh with reduced externalities to traditional sources, you know, abundant, safe, reliable power. Um, and then we can we can uh power the world, you know, like I I grew up in New Jersey. Uh I always my mom and I would drive by this big steel bridge in Trenton says Trenton makes the world takes that. That's what I want for Fusion.
▶ 1:44:19and I want it to be made here uh power our you know our grid and our manufacturing here and then also be able to deploy it around the world but it's an American technology we're deploying uh Dr. Dr. Mumgard, vision technology is riddled with guarded state secrets and I'm hearing about a lot today about uh open and collaborative research. How much of what we're working on in the fusion space should be considered a state secret.
▶ 1:44:47So fusion was declassified very early because it's really hard to do and it's also because it's not directly related to weapons. So in fusion you don't have the the chain reaction you don't have the uranium uh plutonium it also means that you don't have the what is the intent of having those things which is when we look at a place like Iran like you're separating out intent energy versus weapons fusion doesn't have that fundamentally the reaction doesn't and so that was key to why it was declassified
▶ 1:45:18um and that I think is an important principle today that the reaction itself is universal and the materials are universal. Um, but the knowhow is the key part and the knowhow coupled to the ability to to build things is the economic engine of it. Um, and so if we really want that econ economic engine to work, um, there's not a lot of reason to have state secrets.
▶ 1:45:41Uh, China's building a new coal plant every two to three days. They're also investing in fusion, but they're not placing all their bets on fusion. Why do you think they lack the confidence to place their bets on fusion given their investment in traditional energy?
▶ 1:45:58And it's a very good question. I think it it also the answer I think dovetales with your your previous thing about displacement of energy. The world just needs so much energy that you can't really close doors, right? If you close doors to fossil fuels in China today and you bet it all in fusion, like there's a possibility that you don't have enough energy to run that country. They're not going to do that. And what this is about is about building options, options that could expand. And every time we've built a new energy, new energy uh technology, it has not displaced huge amounts of energy instantaneously.
▶ 1:46:29It's allowed us to go faster and further by adding to it. And I think that's what this diffusion story is and that's probably how they see it. Thanks. One more question. This one to Dr. Carter. Um, in your experience, is there anything in the in recent history that indicates that China's fusion investments are motiv motivated by a global egalitarian
▶ 1:46:52Uh, I I think they're very fixated on their own needs and what they're trying to spin up energy technologies and and and dominate them, right? I think that's that's the focus. I mean, we have had interaction with China over the over the years. They do have interactions with Europe. Um uh but I think the motivation is as I said.
▶ 1:47:09Thank you. And I yield back to uh the gentleman from Arkansas.
▶ 1:47:13All right. My previous friend has yielded back and the gentleman from Florida is recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:47:21Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh I first want to uh one of the things that a lot of us in the freshman class been really looking at as this big EI AI issue comes to force is just the absolute need for energy. And I'm so glad we're having these discussions.
▶ 1:47:35The future is clearly uh at the table and how we make these investments will be maybe if we win or lose and and it's a real challenge and I'm I'm glad to see that we've been listening to these type of things, making the decisions based from the experts opinion, not a top- down situation from Congress and and I think your your testimony today is absolutely vital. Uh I'll take you from a little different tack.
▶ 1:47:56Uh I chair the subcommittee on space and it's something that a lot of people are talking about is the idea that will helium 3 potentially move this ball forward and a lot of people are you know as always skeptical about this but there is a lot of potential uh given uh the reality of of this being uh this really move from moon to here in the states and and around the world to try to reduce that radioactivity that comes traditionally with nuclear energy. Um so the question I'll ask Dr.
▶ 1:48:25Dee first if you don't mind. Uh do you think this could be that innovative tool beyond what we're talking about with the issue today that that could be a gamecher and do you think this technology uh can transfer itself in a short enough period of time um to make a real impact in the energy needs we have in the future?
▶ 1:48:43Thank you so much for your question. So a lot of our efforts have been traditionally focused on fusing dutarium and trinium right which as you point out creates um another challenge which is handling with materials but it happens at lower temperatures so it's more readily achievable so that's why a lot of work that we're doing has been focused on that fuel cycle and that's I think the the where we'll get to first and then as you're advancing that technology and bringing fusion to market you can also
▶ 1:49:14be advancing the the you know the scientific readiness of something that's based on helium 3 fuel cycle. So I think it's like a second generation to come. But it is really exciting to see with the you know private investments that we're actually able to to dig into that deeper to make that closer to reality.
▶ 1:49:35Literally you're correct. Um so that that I idea I think I just close to this Mr. Chairman because I know others want to speak is I I'm really glad I think it's Mr. Mongard spoke about the idea it's it's a very difficult challenge to move from traditional to these new fuels. Even we make huge investments, we're still relying on traditional fossil fuels.
▶ 1:49:55And I I think it's imperative that we also recognize that no matter what we do here in the states, what they're doing in India and China are polluting the rest of the world uh at at magnitudes uh versus the United States. As you know, the actual carbon production in the United States has gone down over the last last few years.
▶ 1:50:12And I've got to admit it's incredibly frustrating as a policy maker when we see our own costs um challenged because we're trying to diversify our fuel and and you see our competitors doing it at a much lower cost and and impacting the world. It's not the pollution is not just limited to China and India. And so I hope all of us policy makers will look at this as a reality that yes, we want to make these innovative changes but not at the expense of where we cannot be competitive around the world.
▶ 1:50:39And that sometimes I think sometimes in these buildings or even in academia where I used to serve, we we lose sight of the book version versus the harsh realities of a a free market system or at least a world competitive market. And so I think each I've been listening to your testimony today and I'm really grateful that hopefully we can make this breakthrough because the last thing people want to spend money on is energy and and the thing we all are facing in these challenging times that the AI revolution that the only thing really holding us back as Sam Alman talked with um Congressman
▶ 1:51:09Beich and I and other freshmen is it the only way we're really going to maximize AI is we have the energy production to fuel this and and as we take on the challenges from China who are using every fuel without regard for environmental concerns despite some of their uh weak promises in places like the UN. So with that, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for making the time for us. This is an important discussion which I hope we can continue throughout this Congress. Thank you.
▶ 1:51:34I back.
▶ 1:51:35The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes gentleman from Virginia for five minutes.
▶ 1:51:40Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for allowing me to wave on. And uh I this is my third or fourth or fifth science committee Houston hearing and by far the most success that we've made. Um Dr. Mumgard, I'm very much looking forward to an invitation next year when you turn on Spark even without Tridium. Uh congratulations on how far you've come.
▶ 1:52:07Uh it's uh also thank you for the announcement that you'll build um perhaps the first fusion energy plant in human history in Virginia where it belongs um rather than Arkansas or Texas. But um and we're excited about Helon Energy broke ground on a new thing. Dr. Regan, I never even heard of Pacific Fusion two years ago. Uh so already you're here doing really great things. It's come a long long way.
▶ 1:52:32Uh thank you also a number of times for mentioning our uh fourperson bipartisan uh 45x bill that we have in ways and means which I'm very excited and I think can can make really good progress. Uh we've had a chance to meet with uh secretary Wright and make sure that he is as enthusiastic as we are and that this is a bipartisan effort.
▶ 1:52:54Um, one of the things I'd love for us to do is, yeah, in every speech I give, I talk about fusion, but I find that most people are still like, what's that? Um, and not only is it what's that just in terms of the science, um, but in terms of what the world will look like when you are successful in the the near years to come, what it will mean for, and what energy abundance actually mean.
▶ 1:53:22What will it mean for those of us who believe in climate change? For example, one of the things we got done in uh recent bills was 45Q, which allowed us to do direct air capture. Um, but right now, if you use fossil fuels, it's a wash, but driven by fusion energy, we could make an enormous difference on the amount of uh carbon dioxide that's in our atmosphere. We think about it in terms of foreign policy. Uh, most of the wars fought over the last couple thousand years have been about energy. What happens if energy is abundant?
▶ 1:53:50What will this do for peace in the world? What will it do for population? Um what will it do for um just poverty? You figure you got two billion people going to bed hungry every night. The scarce resource is not humanity. It's not land. It's energy. Um so you are ushering in a dramatic new part of of human history. I'm so so grateful. North Carolina talked about $40 billion over the years. I I don't know where that number came from. Well, let's say is right.
▶ 1:54:19uh 10 billion when you figure we're at 930 million in the budget that's floating around right now and only a small fraction of that's going for things like milestones and fire. Um we would love to work really closely with you on exactly how that 10 billion is laid out and go to the appropriators now Democrat and Republican you the Rosa Delaros and Tom Kohl's and the like. I I did the quick math. our our overall budget's about seven trillion dollars.
▶ 1:54:48That means one out of every $700. Um assuming that 10 billion is all spent in one year, which is probably not what you're trying to do anyway. So, we're talking about one in every $2,000 dedicated to something that can make the hugest difference u for mankind. Um, there's so much that I want to talk to you about, but one, I just want to make sure that we want to work with you to to define that 10 billion dollars as best we can, knowing that it could change yeartoear based on our successes on the collaboration.
▶ 1:55:18I know it's great with the UK and China and Japan. China's spending $6 billion. Is there any opportunity for collaboration with them? Especially when all my my good friends fears about empowering China already some of the most responsible fusion companies are doing peer-reviewed articles. You're in the journals. They can read them. Um what's the is there any possibility for a productive collaboration that is not just about China stealing our IP?
▶ 1:55:52Uh yeah, it's it's a really really good question. Um so there is today a collaboration with China and in the US program through Eater and that that's an example of EER is for everyone and so the Chinese are getting what they need out of it. We're getting what we need out of it. Um and our researchers they interact through that project and that was really the model that we had uh in the last two decades where we we actually had a a policy that we would collaborate with China and we we we did learn things.
▶ 1:56:19they learned I would think more um I I do think that going forward the fundamentals of how plasmas work are so universal that like that is the stuff that is in should be in the peer-reviewed literature the same way the fundamentals of how the human body works and how genetics work.
▶ 1:56:34So that's that's you know something that everyone everyone has access to and should the details of how do you design an actual facility how do you manufacture it how do you put it together that's where the the commercial interest is that's the area that we don't collaborate on and and so I think the publication record of the companies labs etc is is following those lines which is very similar to what's happened when we wanted to build a the drug industry or when we built the aerospace industry so I I think that's that's
▶ 1:57:04healthy.
▶ 1:57:06Great. Great. Thank you. I have so much more to ask, but my time is out. So, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
▶ 1:57:12The gentleman that criticized Texas has yield back and has waved on for the last time. So, we appreciate that. I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The record will remain open 10 days for additional comments and written questions from the members. This hearing is adjourned.