▶ 0:12:52The committee will please come to order. A quorum is present. The committee meets today pursuant to notice to consider six bills. The chair announces that requests for recorded votes may be postponed pursuant to clause two of rule nine uh rule 11 of the rules of the house of representatives and committee rule 14B. Without objection, the chair may recess the committee at any point.
▶ 0:13:18Uh today uh the committee will be marking up six important bit pieces of legislation that will provide certainty to Indian tribes, protect savers and retirees, encourage workplace safety, and clarify the status of direct sellers and real estate HR 1723, the Tribal Labor Sovereignty Act, was introduced by Representative John Mullinar.
▶ 0:13:44It makes clear that the National Labor Relations Act does not apply to Indian tribes or any enterprise or institution owned and operated by an Indian tribe on tribal land. Uh restoring a standard that was in place for decades. HR 1723 safeguards the sovereignty of Indian tribes by clarifying that businesses on tribal lands are subject to Indian tribes and their tribal jurisdiction.
▶ 0:14:14Uh the bill offers long needed clarity for Native American governments and the enterprises they oversee. The bill will also help restore parody among tribes and state and local governments, providing the same autonomy to tribal governments as other recognized governments. HR 2958, the balance the scales act was introduced by Representative Michael Roelly.
▶ 0:14:41It amends the Employee Retirement Income Security Act to provide critical transparency to abusive practices that came to light under the Biden Harris administration. Before offering advice, sharing information, or providing any form of assistance to a private attorney for use in an ORISA civil action, the Department of Labor must under the bill enter into a written agreement clearly defining the nature and extent of the adverse assistance.
▶ 0:15:11Do must provide a copy of the agreement to any employer, plan sponsor, or fiduciary that may be adversely impacted. In addition, DO must file an annual report with Congress detailing any adverse assistance agreements in effect for the prior fiscal year with private party details redacted.
▶ 0:15:35HR 2869, the EBSA Investigations Transparency Act was introduced by Representative Lisa Mlan. It will enable the committee to exercise effective oversight on investigations by the employee benefits security administrator restoring transportation and public confidence in the a restoring transparency and public confidence in the agency's actions.
▶ 0:16:02Despite robust oversight efforts by the committee, the Biden Harris administration refused to answer for its abuse of power when DO conducted overreaching, endless, and aimless This legislation will restore transparency by requiring DO to submit an annual report to Congress on the status of open employee benefit plan In addition, if an investigation lags for more than three years, DO must
▶ 0:16:32explain the delay and give an estimated date of conclusion. This report will not include information identifying any private party involved in the the Michael Enzy Voluntary Protection Program Act, was introduced by Representative Diana Harshburgger.
▶ 0:16:55The VI voluntary protection program VPP recognize uh employers and workers who have effectively effective safety and health management systems. VPP participants must maintain exceptional safety standards.
▶ 0:17:13As a result of their investments in the safety program, participants are exempt from occupational safety and health administration OSHA programmed inspections as long as they may maintain their high safety levels.
▶ 0:17:29This bipartisan bill codifies the VPP that thousands of workers and job creators enjoy and requires OSHA to use at least 5% of its funds in a fiscal year to carry out the program. The next bill for consideration is HR the Direct Seller and Real Estate Agent Harmonization Act, which was introduced by Representative Kevin Kylie in 1982.
▶ 0:17:58The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act updated the Internal Revenue Code to make clear that direct sellers and qualified real estate agents are independent contractors. For 43 years, direct sellers and real estate agents have operated operated as independent contractors and received the tax treatment to match.
▶ 0:18:20But the Fair Labor Standards Act has failed to reflect this HR 3495 fixes this gap by applying the wellestablished tax code framework to the FLSA, ensuring these workers finally receive the clarity and certainty they Finally, we'll consider HR5169, the Retire Through Ownership Act, which was introduced by Rick Allen, chairman of the Subcommittee
▶ 0:18:50on Health, Employment, Labor, and Pensions. This bill helps savers and retirees who hold assets in employee stock ownership plans or ESOPS. ESOPS have been seeking evaluation guidance for over 50 years for employer stock that is purchased by their plans. HR5169 points to tried and true internal revenue service guidelines for valuing employer stock.
▶ 0:19:20It also provides that ESAP fiduciaries can rely on good faith and on a valuation provided by an independent valuation expert or business appraiser who relies on the IRS's guidelines for valuing stock. With that, I yield to the ranking member for an opening statement.
▶ 0:19:40Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mr. Chairman, the most recent data on inflation, unemployment, and jobs show that Americans are struggling as a result of this administration's reckless policies and priorities. As such, I would have hoped that the majority would try to advance common sense evidence-based initiatives to improve workers lives and strengthen the economy. Instead, we're here today on bills we're considering that tilt the scales in favor of corporate interests at the expense of workers.
▶ 0:20:12Committee Republicans also failed to hold legislative hearings on some of these bills and some today's markup represents just a missed opportunity. The first bill we're considering is the Tribal Labor Sovereignty Act HR 1723 which would strip hundreds of thousands of workers employed by Indian-owned enterprises such as casinos, hotels, and mines of their rights under the National Labor Relations Act.
▶ 0:20:39At the heart of this issue are two important and deeply rooted principles. The sovereign rights of Native American tribes and the rights of workers to organize, speak up, and collectively bargain. Rather than seeking a fair and balanced approach to honor both, which the National Labor Relations Board's current standard already accomplishes, this bill simply eliminates NLR protections for all workers.
▶ 0:21:05Also, the committee's failure to have a hearing on this issue has robbed our new members of the opportunity to fully discuss and deliberate on the impact of this regressive legislation. We can and must do better than force a false choice between sovereign sovereign sovereignty of tri of tribes and worker rights. For these reasons, I oppose the bill.
▶ 0:21:28Next, we'll consider the Balance the Scales Act, HR 2958, which would amend the Employee Retirement Income Security Act, ORISA, to severely limit the Employee Benefits Security Administrations, EPSA, ability to communicate with attorneys representing workers or retirees in any matters brought under EP under Orisa. There is no similar limitation with respect to attorneys representing corporations.
▶ 0:21:57So in essence, the bill would put a thumb on the scales and disadvantage those workers and retirees who are seeking justice. For that reason, I oppose the bill. Third bill notice for today's markup is the is the EMSA investigations transparency act HR 2869. The bill requires EPSA to complete an extraneous report focusing on the length of its investigations.
▶ 0:22:24The bill supporters argue that EPS's investigations are simply too long. But this completely ignores the reality that in some cases the reality in which these investigations take place. Mr.
▶ 0:22:37Chairman, it must be noted that while some investigations may take a lot of time, the consistent underfunding of VEPSA and the steady decline of full-time employees undermine its ability to protect workers and families who rely on the agency to protect their hard-earned health and retirement benefits. Further, many investigations are long because they are complex.
▶ 0:22:59Spending sufficient time analyzing the facts and circumstances of the case during the an investigation is not only justified but is required by law. Justice cannot always be expedited and this bill is not in the best interest of workers, retirees and their families. And so I will oppose that bill too. I support transparency and accountability on on behalf of working families but these two EPSA bills do not accomplish that goal.
▶ 0:23:28The best way to increase transparency and accountability is to ensure that EPSA has the funding and personnel it needs to fulfill its statutory mission. Fourth bill we'll consider is the Michael Lindy Voluntary Protection Program Act HR 2844 which would expand a program that exempts certain employers from routine safety inspections. But voluntary programs can't replace clear enforcable standards.
▶ 0:23:56In 2023 alone, over 140,000 workers died from workplace hazards. OSHA must stay focused on protecting workers and worker safety cannot be optional. We cannot trade exchange. We can we cannot exchange proven enforcement for voluntary promises. And so I'll oppose that bill.
▶ 0:24:17Fifth bill under consideration is titled the direct seller and real estate agent harmonization act HR 3495 which attempts to legislate a complex and evolving workforce sector. Yet no committee hearing no no committee hearing has occurred on this Congress or in previous Congresses to clearly show that the application of the Fair Labor Standards Act has disrupted the real estate direct sales or news delivery industries.
▶ 0:24:46In fact, FL F LSA already has um includes an outside sales exemption from the minimum wage and overtime requirements. So even in the highly unlikely instance that a real estate agent or direct seller was treated as an employee, the commissionbased practices, pay practices would still be allowed. This does not seem possible.
▶ 0:25:10It does not seem possible that other workers such as those that However, it does seem possible that other workers such as those that call centers might be inadvertently swept up in this legislation and lose their rights to decent pay and safe working conditions. This bill weakens labor protections and invites serious unintended consequences. And for those reasons, I urge urge opposition. Final bill we'll consider is the Retire Through Ownership Act HR5169.
▶ 0:25:40A fellow Virginia Senator Tim Kaine leads the bill in the Senate with Senator Marshall. This measure would amend Orisa to permit an employee stock ownership plan or ESOP to rely on good faith to rely on in good faith on an independent valuation of its employer stock if that valuation relies on certain long-standing IRS guidelines. That's reasonable and so I will support that bill.
▶ 0:26:10Lastly, I'd like to extend my condolences to all of the families and communities affected by senseless gun violence. a public health crisis that has been experienced in schools and universities, workplaces, movies, supermarkets, and even houses of worship. According to mass shooting tracker, since January 2025, there have been 361 mass shootings, meaning gun violence that involves four or more people being shot.
▶ 0:26:39For that reason, I must site the reason I have to cite the mass shooting tracker is that not one, not a single federal agency collects and analyzes mass shootings. So, Mr. Chairman, I'm again requesting again requesting that Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. appear before this committee, which has broad jurisdiction over many programs that directly impact mental health and public health.
▶ 0:27:06We must have the chance to speak to the secretary about the department's annual budget since uh especially since he has proposed eliminating many mental health programs including the total uh dissolution of the substance abuse and mental health services administration. So, Mr.
▶ 0:27:26Chairman, I'll yield to you for an update on the timing of that hearing that we've been asking for for a long I thank uh the gentleman for the question. We will take it under advisement and um our consideration will Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I urge the chairman to move quickly on scheduling that important hearing. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 0:27:53I thank the gentleman. And I certainly share the sentiments about the senseless um violence that has gone on that uh reaches to the pits of our stomach and what we've seen recently and over the course of extended period of time as well. And that's where education is important that promotes morality, decency, and knowledge. And uh I'm glad to be a partner with you on this committee for for those purposes.
▶ 0:28:22Without objection, all other members who wish to insert written open statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the committee clerk electronically by the end of the day Pursuant to the House rules, a copy of the text to be marked up was made available to members and the public at least 24 hours in advance.
▶ 0:28:43The bills being marked up today shall be open to amendment at any point, and the chair will allow members to offer amendments in a manner not prohibited by House or committee rules. Without objection, members who have more than one amendment to the bills and wish to offer their amendments unblock may do so. The committee will now proceed uh to consideration of the bill HR1723 for amendment.
▶ 0:29:12The bill was circulated in advance and printed copies are available. The clerk shall designate the
▶ 0:29:20HR 1723, a bill to clarify the rights of Indians and Indian tribes on Indian lands under the National Labor Relations
▶ 0:29:29Without objection, the first reading of the bill is dispensed with. Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point and any amendment offered shall be considered as read. Does anyone seek to be recognized? Representative Mesmer, for what purpose do you seek
▶ 0:29:47Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the
▶ 0:29:51The clerk shall designate the amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 0:29:55Amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR1 1723 offered by Mr. Mesmer of Indiana, identifier HR1 1723_s. Without objection, the amendment shall be considered original text for purposes of further amendment. The amendment in the nature of a substitute has already been distributed. I now now recognize Mr. Mesmer for five minutes to explain the amendment in the nature of a Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:30:23For decades, the National Rel Labor Relations Board deferred to the sovereignty of tribal government authorities to set labor regulations law affecting tribal employees. Tribalowned and operated entities located on tribal lands were treated like state and local government workforces freed to determine their own labor management relation policies and exempt from the coverage of the National Labor Relations Act.
▶ 0:30:47Since 2004, when the when the NLRB reversed its own precedent, the board has utilized a case-bycase and multiffactor test to make these determinations, undermining tribal sovereignty and jeopardizing the revenues and jobs that tribal owned enterprises generate. Tribalowned entities are often the largest employers on tribal lands and the only funding stream for essential services. Tribal governments have a critical right to determine their own labor relations on their lands.
▶ 0:31:15The unfairness of this of this area of law is wrong and only Congress can fix it. We must amend the NLA to respect the autonomy and sovereignty of tribal governments in determining their own labor relations on their own territory. That is why that is why I'm proud to speak in support of HR 1723, the Tribal Labor Sovereignty Act, which restores tribal autonomy and sovereignty by creating critical exemptions for Indian tribes from coverage of the NL.
▶ 0:31:43It's time to clean up this mess and honor our commitment to Indian tribes and their property. I thank Representative Molinar for his leadership on this important bill and I urge adoption of the amendment in nature of of a substitute which makes a technical change to the bill. I yield
▶ 0:32:00I thank the gentleman. Are there any members who wish to be recognized for further discussion on the amendment and the nature of the substitute? Miss Adams, uh, for what purpose do you seek recognition?
▶ 0:32:14Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move strike the last word, speak on the the bill.
▶ 0:32:18You're recognized.
▶ 0:32:19Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I I rise in strong opposition to HR 1723, the so-called tribal labor for Sovereignty Act because this bill claims to support the rights of indigenous people, but in reality, it's just another Republican giveaway to wealthy bosses at the expense of workers. All people, regardless of where they work or who they work for, deserve the right to form a union and to collectively bargain with their employers for better wages and benefits.
▶ 0:32:49And while I respect the need for tribal self-governance, this bill takes the wrong approach. Instead of working to expand the rights of workers at tribal businesses, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle decided to attack their right to form a union. Thousands of workers risk their lives and many died in the struggle to achieve federal recognition of labor unions and to protect their fellow workers from the inhumane working conditions of the early 20th century.
▶ 0:33:16This misguided legislation would take that right from hundreds of thousands of workers. Of all of the federal laws that that apply to tribal businesses, Republicans in this committee are focused on the National Labor Relations Act. The question we need to ask ourselves is why? Why are we taking rights from employees of tribal enterprises at a time when when over oneif of working age American Indians live in poverty?
▶ 0:33:42And why are we taking legal recourse away from employees of tribal enterprises who are sexually assaulted at work? And why the Republicans on this committee believe that the best way to to liberate tribes is to crush workers. And I think I know why. because this bill is part of a broader Republican agenda, an agenda that that tips the scales in in favor of bosses and and disregards the well-being of all workingclass people, including workingclass American Indians.
▶ 0:34:11This piece of legislation has nothing to do with tribal sovereignty. It exploits the condition of American Indians to justify its anti-worker agenda. And I'm not going to have anything to do with that. Mr. Mr. Chair, I do want to enter into the record letters from the AFL CIO, United Auto Workers and Steel Workers. Um, we can enter that into the record,
▶ 0:34:34Without objection. Hearing none, they'll be entered.
▶ 0:34:37Thank you. Thank you. And and so I just want to to urge all of my colleagues to appro oppose this cool bill. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:34:46I thank the gentle lady. For what purposes the gentleman from Virginia, the ranking member, Mr. Scott, seek recognition. Chairman, I yield and move to strike the last word.
▶ 0:34:54You're recognized.
▶ 0:34:56Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, throughout my public service, I've been deeply committed to respecting tribal sovereignty and maintaining government to government relations with Native American tribes, as well as protecting American workers and enforcing federal labor laws. Unfortunately, today the committee Republicans are pitting the two solemn and deeply rooted principles against each other. The first is the right of Indian tribes as distinct independent political communities.
▶ 0:35:23The second is a right of workers to organize a union and collectively bargain for better working conditions. Rather than seeking a fair and balanced approach to tribal sovereignty and workers rights, this bill simply eliminates workers rights and protections.
▶ 0:35:38This bill would strip hundreds of thousands of workers employed at any enterprise owned and operated by an Indian tribe and located on tribal lands, including casinos, mines, hotels, and construction companies of their rights to organize and engage in concerted activity and bargain collectively under the National Labor Relations Act. And I'd note, Mr. Chairman, that these are not all tribal uh members of tribes.
▶ 0:36:05uh some in some of these business 75% of the workers are not members of the tribe. Uh this bill would overturn the National Labor Relations Board's current San Manuel standard which was issued under a Republican president and established an even-handed approach to balance tribal sovereignty while ensuring workers rights to organize and collectively bargain and protect that right.
▶ 0:36:29The board's common sense approach relied on long-standing legal precedents regarding when and how federal laws of general application will apply to Indian tribes. These presidents set forth ground rules that require the federal government to withhold jurisdiction if the law interferes with tribal rights of self-governance in purely intramural matters, abregates rights guaranteed by treaty or is contrary to congressional intent when Congress indicated that a
▶ 0:36:59law should not apply to Indian tribes. The NLRB went a step further to create a fourth exception where there where where there are policy reasons not to assert jurisdiction given the unique circumstances of the tribal enterprise and the impact of asserting NLRB jurisdiction in that case. The board manual standard has been tested multiple times and been upheld in every court that considered its framework.
▶ 0:37:26And furthermore, the Supreme Court has previously declined to review two challenges from Michigan tribal casinos. An argument made regarding this unique issue is the tribes should have parody with state and local governments which are exempted from the NLRB NLR. However, matters involving tribal self-governance are already exempted from coverage under the sand manual decision.
▶ 0:37:51Courts have distinguished between inter mural government matters and tribal casinos which are commercial enterprises serving predominantly non-tribal clients and hiring predominantly non-tribal members to operate them. Additionally, the cl the claim that tribes should be treated the same as state or local governments is somewhat selective with title seven of the civil rights act applies to state and local governments but title seven exempts tribes.
▶ 0:38:20Some interests have been working diligently to weaken the right of workers to band together and bargain for a better life as evidenced by the uh Republican agenda for decades instead of making a goodfaith effort to weigh the principle of s tribal sovereignty against workers rights to organize and collectively bargain. This bill would be one of the most significant roll backs of worker rights in nearly 80 years impacting hundreds of thousands of workers.
▶ 0:38:47We ought to be focused on balancing the two important principles impacted by the bill, but not simply stripping workers of their rights to secure better wages and benefits. And for those reasons, Mr. Chairman, I urge my colleagues to oppose the bill, and I yield back.
▶ 0:39:04I thank the gentleman. Are there any other members who wish to be recognized to further discuss this amendment? There being no further discussion on the amendment in the nature of a substitute, the committee will move to consideration of amendments. Are there any members who would like to offer amendments?
▶ 0:39:31There being no amendments, the question now occurs on the amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 1723. All in favor say I. I all oppose. No.
▶ 0:39:46In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to.
▶ 0:39:55We will now move to consider the next bill. The committee will now proceed to consideration of the bill HR 2958 for amendment. The bill was circulated in advance and printed copies are available.
▶ 0:40:21The clerk shall designate the HR 2958, a bill to amend the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 to require that the Employee Benefit Security Administration submit an annual report to Congress on adverse interest agree agreements and for other purposes.
▶ 0:40:41Without objection, the first reading of the bill is dispensed with. Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point, and any amendment offered shall be considered as read. Does anyone seek to be recognized? Representative Roelly, for what purpose do you seek
▶ 0:40:59Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the
▶ 0:41:01The clerk shall designate the amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 0:41:05Amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 2958 offered by Mr. Rouley of Ohio, identifier HR2958_s.
▶ 0:41:16Without objection, the amendment shall be considered original text for purpose of further amendment. The amendment in the nature of a substitute has already been distributed. I now recognize Mr. Roelly for five minutes to explain the amendment in the nature of a substitute. Mr.
▶ 0:41:31Chairman, HR 2958, the balance the scales act amends ARZA to require that before DO provides the adverse assistance to plaintist attorneys, DO must enter a written agreement showing what kind of assistance it will provide. DO must also give a copy of the agreement to any employer, plan sponsor or fidiciary that may be negatively affected by the assistance.
▶ 0:41:58Also, DO must file an annual report with Congress disclosing all adverse assistance agreement in the last fiscal year. Mr. Chairman, when I learned that DO had gathered information during an employee benefit plan investigation and secret secretly shared it with a class action plaintiff's attorney, I was completely appalled. That kind of misguided information sharing was government abuse at its absolute worst.
▶ 0:42:26DO's actions have also been strongly condemned by plan sponsors and their service providers. HR2958 has strong support from industry leaders including the American Benefits Council, the ARZA Industry Committee, the US Chamber of Commerce and ESOP associations and also many more. It's time to restore transparency and accountability to the DO's operations. This is just simply basic good government.
▶ 0:42:54I urge my colleagues to vote yes on the amendment which takes technical changes to the bill. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw.
▶ 0:43:05You mean to yield back?
▶ 0:43:06Yield back.
▶ 0:43:06Yield back, sir.
▶ 0:43:09I don't want you to withdraw.
▶ 0:43:10No, I don't want to do that either, sir.
▶ 0:43:13I'll always protect that. Are there any members who wish to be recognized for further discussion on the amendment in the nature of a substitute? I recognize uh the ranking member for uh
▶ 0:43:26Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. You're recognized,
▶ 0:43:30Mr. Chairman. Under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act, Orisa, the Secretary of Labor is permitted to share information obtained during investigation with any person affected by any matter which is the subject of an investigation. Using this authority, the department has in a small number of cases entered into what's called a common interest agreement with certain parties into litigation in which there is a shared interest in furthering department's mission of advancing the interests of workers.
▶ 0:44:00So, let me be clear, these agreements are rare. In fact, in response to the Freedom of Information Act requests covering a 15-year span, 2009 to 2024 and more than 31,000 investigations, Employee Benefits um Employee Benefit Security Administration or EPSA uh reported that they were only able to identify less than four common interest agreements for every 10,000
▶ 0:44:30However, last fall, after finding that MS had been sharing information with plaintiffs council pursuant to a common interest agreement, committee Republicans complained that these rare and legally permissible agreements are unfair to employers who are subject to Then chair of the committee, Dr. Fox asked the Department of Labor's Office of Inspector General to investigate the common interest agreements. Then in January, Mr. Chairman, you renewed that request in June. this respect.
▶ 0:45:00The inspector general confirmed that they are in fact looking into common interest agreements. Instead of waiting for the results of the IG's audit that they requested the committee Republicans and now rushing to judgment and advancing HR 2958, the balance of scales act. This bill amends Orisa to severely limit EPSA's ability to communicate with attorneys representing workers.
▶ 0:45:25It requires EPSA to enter into a formal written agreement with workers attorneys and provide copies of such agreement to corporate attorneys. The bill would also require the department to provide an annual report to Congress logging all instances in which they provide any insistence to attorneys representing workers. But let's be clear, this so-called transparency only goes one way. The bill does not include the same limitations and restrictions and requirements on those attorneys representing corporations.
▶ 0:45:55The bill also explicitly shields the identity of the employers, plan sponsors or service providers such as health insurance companies who may have violated Orisa in the required annual report to Congress. So quite simply, HR 2958 is a bonanza for the defense bar and stacks the deck against workers who have been harmed. So I urge committee to reject the bill and yield back the balance of my time. I thank the gentleman.
▶ 0:46:23Are there any members who wish to be recognized for further discussion on the amendment in the nature of a substitute? There being no further discussion on the amendment in the nature of a substitute, the committee will move to consideration of amendments. Are there any members who would like to offer an amendment? There being no amendments, uh the question now occurs on the amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 2958. All in favor say I.
▶ 0:46:53I. All oppose. No.
▶ 0:46:57In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment to the nature of the substitute is agreed to. We'll now move on to consider the next bill 2844 28 excuse me44.
▶ 0:47:54The committee will now proceed to consideration of the bill HR 2844 for for amendment. The bill is circulated in advance and printed copies are available. The clerk will designate the
▶ 0:48:07HR 2844, a bill to authorize the Department of Labor's voluntary protection program.
▶ 0:48:13Without objection, the first reading of the bill is dispensed with. Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for the amendment at this at any point and any amendment offered shall be considered as read. Does anyone seek to be recognized? Mr. McKenzie, for what purpose do you seek recognition?
▶ 0:48:31Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the
▶ 0:48:34Clerk shall designate the amendment in nature of a substitute.
▶ 0:48:37Amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 2844 offered by Mr. Mackenzie of Pennsylvania identifier VPPA_01
▶ 0:48:47without objection the bill the amendment will be considered original text for purposes of f future amendment amendment is the nature of a substitute has already been distributed I now recognize McKenzie for five minutes to explain the amendment and the nature of a substitute
▶ 0:49:02every member of this committee wants to create policies that prevent and reduce workplace injuries and illnesses ensuring workers safely return home and to their families. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration, also known as OSHA, and its partners work to provide millions of Americans with the tools they need to do just that.
▶ 0:49:25However, rapidly changing workplaces demand that OSHA be innovative and adaptable in order to meet our shared goal of safer workplaces. Strengthening programs like the AY's voluntary protection program or VPP is a clear The success of VPP lies in the collaborative voluntary model.
▶ 0:49:48The VPP encourages employers to take ownership of their safety culture, fostering engagement and cooperation among workers and management. This partnership model encourages the sharing of best practices and innovative solutions tailored to specific workplace challenges. As a result, this innovative approach empowers employees and employers to create safer environments, ultimately saving lives and reducing life-changing injuries.
▶ 0:50:20Unfortunately, it's a discretionary program. The VPP is constantly under threat of having its reach and effectiveness diminished. and VPP participants are at risk of losing this critical resource without warning. That's why I feel it's so important to speak in support of HR 2844, the Michael Lensy Voluntary Protection Program Act, which dedicates at least 5% of OSHA's annual budget to fund the VPP.
▶ 0:50:48This bill represents a critical step forward in our commitment to workplace safety by codifying the VPP into law. commits to transforming workplace safety through innovation, collaboration, and shared responsibility. And by embracing the principles of VPP, we not only reduce workplace injuries, but also pro promote a culture where safety and productivity go hand in hand.
▶ 0:51:14I want to thank Representative Harshburgger for her leadership on this bipartisan bill. And I urge adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, which makes a technical change to the bill. With that, I yield back.
▶ 0:51:30Are there any members who wish to be recognized for further discussion on the amendment and nature of substitute?
▶ 0:51:37Recognizes Miss McMH.
▶ 0:51:39Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I wish to speak in opposition to the amendment and the nature of the sub substitute.
▶ 0:51:48You're recognized.
▶ 0:51:49Thank you. Uh, the voluntary protection program at OSHA is an important program. We definitely all recognize that there is a value in recognizing good faith employers who go out of their way to establish best practices to keep workers safe. We should be encouraging more cooperation between employers and OSHA to ensure that workers are kept safe on the job.
▶ 0:52:14But unfortunately, this bill, I believe, would make major changes to the underlying program. major negative changes that put employers at risk and make it more likely for Americans to get sick, get seriously hurt, or maybe even killed on the job.
▶ 0:52:31As written, this bill provides no new funding to keep people safe at work, but mandates that 5% of OSHA's already limited budget go to recognizing employers who are already doing a good job of protecting their employees.
▶ 0:52:49This bill redirects funding away from ensuring employers who unfortunately do put their workers in harm's way are held It redirects that money to a program that recognizes companies for voluntarily doing the right thing when these limited dollars should really be going to where there is the most need for oversight, not where there is the least.
▶ 0:53:17Earlier this congress during Secretary Chavez Durmer's testimony to this committee I shared a story about a Georgia based contractor enjoying a 17 employing a 17-year-old to be a roofer which is illegal under the Fair Labor Standards Act. He unfortunately fell about 25 feet from a store rooftop and was airlifted to a local hospital.
▶ 0:53:42Thank God he did recover without serious injur injury, but he could have very well uh died or could have ended up differently. As some members of this committee may know, my son Jordan was unfortunately taken from me when he was only 17 years old. So, I know the pain of losing your child and I miss him every single day. And Jordan was the same age as the young man that I just spoke about.
▶ 0:54:09It would be unavo an unavoidable tragedy for any family to have to go through what mine has because OSHA didn't have the staff, the time, or the resources to monitor the most dangerous work sites because they were spending time and money recognizing employers who are already working to keep their employees safe. When victims ask why it takes so long to get justice, they don't want to hear excuses. I've been there.
▶ 0:54:39They don't want to be told that preventing what happened to their friend or their loved one is simply not a priority of their government. They want this to be taken They want their mom or their dad or their sister or brother to come home safely every single day. And this bill is far less likely to make that happen. So, I encourage all of my colleagues to vote no on reporting the bill. and I
▶ 0:55:08Are there any other members wish to be
▶ 0:55:13There being MS.
▶ 0:55:17Thank Thank you. And move to second last
▶ 0:55:23You're recognized.
▶ 0:55:23Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman. This bill um makes probably makes some parts of um this program even worse. OSHA's voluntary protection program or the VPP is a legacy of the Reagan administration that was created by the agency using its broad authority under the law to develop programs for encouraging employers to provide safe workplaces. BPP isn't an enforcement program. It doesn't set standards.
▶ 0:55:52Instead, it supposedly model employers. These employers which are overwhelmingly large multinational companies basically benefit from free compliance audits um with very extensive audits provided at no cost. Uh because these are supposed to be model employers, they are exempted from OSHA's inspection programs for high priority hazards.
▶ 0:56:19But we know that over the years workers have been hurt and even killed in these supposedly modeled workplaces. Despite more than 40 years of investment in this program, BPP is still unproven. It is not clear whether the workplaces are any safer than they would be without it. So rather than pass this bill, it' be nice to do a study to see what parts of VPP work and which parts may need attention.
▶ 0:56:46But this bill would create a new permanent compliance program loosely based on the current VPP, but without the modest safeguards built into current policies. There's nothing in this bill to guarantee, for example, that workers have a seat at the table the way they have under current BPP policies.
▶ 0:57:05But worse than that is a dangerous provision in the bill that forbids OSHA compliance assistance staff from referring violations to OSHA's enforcement branch if they spot serious issues during on-site visits. Under this bill, a participating employer would theoretically be required to fix violations within 90 days or much later than that if a 90-day deadline is not deemed feasible.
▶ 0:57:32But there's no actual consequence in the bill if the employer fails to correct the hazard. Even if we look past the risk to workers lives, this program is at best an unaffordable luxury. OSHA's primary job should be setting strong standards and enforcing them effectively. But OSHA has been starved for resources for days. In 1982, OSHA had just enough capacity to be able to reach every workplace in its jurisdiction once every 84 years.
▶ 0:58:03But under this under the budget fiscal 2020 26, instead of once every 84 years, it'll take OSHA once every 266 years to to to visit every workplace. We need OSHA to get back into the business of actually protecting workers, especially from hazards such as heat stress, workplace violence, toxic chemicals, and not giving corporations to get get out of jail free card for putting their workers at risk.
▶ 0:58:32We need to fully fund OSHA so it can do its job. And so for this reasons, I urge my colleagues to oppose the bill. We could should do a study. They're they're good parts of the VPP program. Um but um this legislation is not the answer.
▶ 0:58:49Are there any other members wish to be
▶ 0:58:51Uh Mr. Chairman have an amendment at the
▶ 0:58:56Oh, sorry.
▶ 0:59:01There being no amendments, the question now occurs on the amendment. Uh the United letters from the AF FLCIO and the United Steel Workers be introduced into the record in opposition to the bill.
▶ 0:59:15Without objection.
▶ 0:59:16Thank you.
▶ 0:59:19There have been no amendments. The question now occurs on amendment and just need to ask that question. Are there any members?
▶ 0:59:29I'm sorry. Are there any members who would like to offer u amendments? There being no amendments, the question now occurs on amendment and the nature of a substitute to HR 2844. All in favor say I.
▶ 0:59:45I. All oppose. No.
▶ 0:59:49In opinion of the chair, the eyes have it. An amendment of nature of substitute is agreed to. Uh we will now move to consider the next Committee will now proceed to consideration of the bill HR 2869 for amendment. Excuse me. The bill is circulated in advance and printed copies are available. The clerk will now will shall designate the bill.
▶ 1:00:16HR 2869, a bill to amend the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 to require that the Employee Benefits Security Administration make an annual report to Congress on investigations.
▶ 1:00:29Without objection, the first reading of the bill is dispensed with. Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. Any amendment offered shall be considered as read. Does anyone seek to be recognized?
▶ 1:00:43Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk. Chairwoman Mlan, for what purpose do you seek recognition?
▶ 1:00:49Um, I know
▶ 1:00:54the clerk shall designate the amendment.
▶ 1:00:58I just said that I have an amendment at the desk.
▶ 1:01:00Okay. The clerk shall designate the amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 1:01:04Amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR2869 offered by Miss Mlan of Michigan identifier HR2869_s. Without objection, amendment shall be considered original text for purpose of further amendment. The amendment in the nature of the substitute has already been distributed. I now recognize Chairwoman Mlan for five minutes to explain the amendment in the nature of a
▶ 1:01:27Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HR2869 the employee benefits securities administration investigation transparency act will restore sunshine to EPSA's investigation practice p practices and give congress an important oversight tool at was as it was always meant to have when congress enacted the employment retirement income security act the statute gave the department of labor very broad and virtually unfettered authority to investigate benefit plans
▶ 1:01:57for that reason, the original statute provided that the labor department must submit an annual report to Congress on cases in enforcement status. This reporting requirement was intended to ensure that Congress has regular insight into EPSA's enforcement docket docket and the timeliness of its case resolutions.
▶ 1:02:21However, the federal reports u um estimate uh elimination and sunset act of 1995 terminated this report in 2000. Since that time, EPSA has not been statutoily required to report to Congress on its open investigations or enforcement backlogs logs.
▶ 1:02:42Over many years, employee benefit plan sponsors and stakeholders have voiced increasing frustration with with EPSA's investig investigatory practices. They report that EBSA EPSA often fails to conduct investigations in a timely manner, creating unacceptable burdens on employers and undermining plan participant participant confidence.
▶ 1:03:06The subcommittee on health, employment, labor, and pensions heard at a hearing that some plan sponsors do not even know when or if their investigations have is supported by the Society of Professional Asset Managers and Recordkeepers, business groups on health and the American benefit council council, ESOP Association, Orisa Industry Committee and the US Chamber of Commerce.
▶ 1:03:35It is time to restore transparency and accountability. It is time to hand back the tools of Orisa um that Orisa intended to this committee in order to have conducted effective oversight of EPSA's broad investig investigatory power. I urge my colleagues to vote yes on this amendment which makes technical changes to the underlying bill and support EPS's investigation transparency act. And with that, Mr.
▶ 1:04:05Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:04:07I thank the gentle lady. Uh, are there any members who wish to be recognized for further discussion on the amendment and nature of a substitute?
▶ 1:04:15Representative Scott, for what purpose do you seek recognition?
▶ 1:04:18Chair moves the second last word.
▶ 1:04:20Gentleman is recognized.
▶ 1:04:21Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Labor's Employee Benefits Security Administration or EPSA protects workers health and retirement benefits. EPSA oversees approximately 800,000 private retirement plans, 2.6 million health plans, and other plans collectively covering about 150 million people. Many laws are within EPSA's jurisdiction and several others are added have been added in recent years.
▶ 1:04:49Yet, despite EPSA's critical mission and growing responsibilities, its funding and staffing have not kept pace. EPS has been flatfunded for many years and the Trump administration's fiscal 2026 budget only makes things worse by requesting $10 million less than last year's level.
▶ 1:05:08Last week, the appropriations committee Republicans regrettably followed the Trump administration's lead and cut funding for EPSA by 10 billion10 million in his fiscal 2026 labor age spending bill. And now the Republicans are now effectively proposing a further cut in their continuing resolution uh released yesterday.
▶ 1:05:29CR fails to extend the funding for the department to enforce the bipartisan no surprises act which would be a giveaway to insurance companies that will threaten patients who are supposedly to be protected from surprise medical bills. Insufficient funding has resulted in steady declines in full-time employees at EPSA. Decade ago, EPSA's budget supported over a thousand employees. This recent budget would support just over 640.
▶ 1:05:58Last year, then secretary of assistant secretary of of EPSA appeared before our help subcommittee and testified that EPSA has less than one investigator for every 13,900 Orisa covered health, retirement, or other benefit plans. Let me say that again. One investigator for over 13,000 plans under their purview. This would get even worse if the cuts uh become law.
▶ 1:06:27Against this backdrop, we're considering HR2869, the so-called EPSA Investigations Transparency Act. Bill requires EPSA to produce a report that is largely focused on the duration of EPSA's investigations. Such a report fails to provide a complete picture of the AY's enforcement activities. nor does the bill authorize any but the bill does not authorize any additional funding for APSA to complete such a report.
▶ 1:06:56As my colleagues know, investigations, particularly large and complex cases, can take time to complete, particularly in the context of EPSA staff and resource constraints. We agree that investigations should proceed as quickly as possible, but EPSA should not be prematurely closing cases before documents have been obtained or violations properly investigated.
▶ 1:07:19It's my understanding that EPSA already imposes timeline timeliness measures on its staff and monitors uh monitors progress on an ongoing basis. November 2023, in response to an oversight request from this committee, EPSU wrote that only 3% of its cases are open for more than 48 hours. We're in a state of ongoing investigation. Uh, excuse me.
▶ 1:07:46Only 3% of its cases open for more than 48 months were in a state of ongoing Democrats are committed to ensuring that workers uh get their benefits. Period. and my colleagues are truly concerned about EPS's investigations taking too long. It seems the best way to address that would be to increase its funding, resources, and personnel so it could effectively fulfill its mission.
▶ 1:08:11What does not uh help is saddling EPSA with an additional administrative burden of producing one-dimensional one-dimensional reports without even authorizing additional funds to help them do it. So, I oppose this um bill and yield back in balance of my time.
▶ 1:08:28I thank the gentleman. For what purpose does the gentle lady from Oregon seek
▶ 1:08:33I move to strike the last word and speak in opposition to the amendment and in nature of a substitute.
▶ 1:08:37You're recognized.
▶ 1:08:38Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I just want to align myself with the the comments of of ranking member Scott. Um all of us on this committee understand that is complicated. Uh but we also understand the importance of EPSA when there is a challenge. Uh, I'm concerned, as ranking member Scott said, about investigations that may be large or complex that take time to fulfill. If there's a a number of witnesses, volume of evidence, um, all of those things uh take time and resources.
▶ 1:09:08And as we know, the appropriations have not kept pace uh over the years. And unfortunately, the Trump administration's fiscal year 26 request goes even further in the wrong direction by proposing to cut $10 million from EPSA's base appropriations in addition to cutting staff. Um, and that that's the wrong direction. Again, we all want the investigations to be robust and uh and and complete and but when they're complex, it takes time.
▶ 1:09:37Also, one more point is that this bill tends to focus uh primarily on the duration of the investigation which is uh an inappropriate focus because again if an investigation is complex or there are a lot of witnesses or just the complications of Orisa, it could take longer. So uh you know although we we all agree that EPSA has an important role to play, this bill does not improve that and I uh yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 1:10:05I thank the gentle lady. Are there any other members who wish to be recognized for further discussion on the amendment and the nature of a substitute? There being no further discussion on the amendment and the nature of a substitute, the committee will move to consideration of amendments. Are there any members who would like to offer There being no amendments, the question now occurs on the amendment in the nature of a substitute HR 2869. All in favor say I. I. All oppose?
▶ 1:10:35No.
▶ 1:10:37In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it.
▶ 1:10:40Just the eye has it.
▶ 1:10:46Well, I'm a little split in personality Appreciate your indulgence. The eyes have it and the amendment and the nature of substitute is agreed to. We'll now move on to consider the next HR uh 39 or 3495. The committee will now proceed to consideration of the bill HR 3495 for amendment.
▶ 1:11:16The bill was circulated in advance and printed copies are the clerk will now designate the bill. HR 3495, a bill to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to clarify the definition of employee as it relates to direct sellers and real estate agents and for other purposes.
▶ 1:11:40Without objection, the first reading of the bill is dispensed with. Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point and any amendment offered shall be considered as read. I now recognize uh to um speak
▶ 1:12:00offer an amendment in nature of a
▶ 1:12:05I have amendment at the desk. The clerk shall designate the amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 1:12:10Amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 3495 offered by Mr. Mr. Wahberg of Michigan identifier HR3495_s.
▶ 1:12:22Without objection, the amendment shall be considered original text for purposes of um a further amendment. The amendment in the nature of a substitute has already been distributed. I now recognize myself. For for decades, independent contractors performing work as direct sellers and real estate agents have enjoyed the tax benefits of being in business for themselves.
▶ 1:12:46Yet, as we've seen before in this committee, the Fair Labor Standards Act, FL LSA, has not kept up with this reality. In order to ensure that direct sellers and real estate professionals continue to be classified as independent contractors, Congress needs to make the simple fix contained in HR 3495, the Direct Seller and Real Estate Agent Harmonization Act.
▶ 1:13:12This legislation specifies that entrepreneurs performing work as direct sellers and qualified real estate agents are not employees and are thus permitted to continue to operate independently. This change will provide our independent workers with more certainty and clarity which they can use to grow their businesses, a win for local communities and America's economy.
▶ 1:13:37The National Association of Realtors estimated that real estate agents economic footprint totals a whopping 18% of our country's gross domestic product. Direct sellers contribute another 111 billion dollars in annual economic impact to the US We need to empower the millions of independent contractors performing this work that generates so much economic activity.
▶ 1:14:07That starts with updating the FLSA's woefully outdated provisions to reflect the American workforce in 2025. The amendment in a nature of a substitute I am offering today makes a technical change to the legislation which is common sense proworker and pro business. I urge all members to support this important effort and I e back.
▶ 1:14:36Are there any any other members who wish to speak on this amendment and nature of a I recognize a gentle lady from Atlanta, uh for for her five minutes.
▶ 1:14:51Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I really believe that this bill is searching for a problem that just simply doesn't exist. There is no threat to the real estate business model by the Fair Labor Standards Act. This is the first time that this issue's ever been brought before this committee and I don't believe real estate agents or direct sellers have ever been discussed when we've been talking about worker We've not had a hearing on this Congress on this issue in Congress
▶ 1:15:21and I don't believe that this committee has ever had a hearing or even discussed real estate agents or direct sellers when we're talking about this issue. Unfortunately, this I believe is just another attempt by the majority to scare hardworking specifically our realators and other direct sellers who will be caught up in this bill into signing the rights away under the guise of protection.
▶ 1:15:48They're using the idea that your job is at risk when it really isn't because it simply scares people. They know that it scares people and they do it anyway to push an agenda that is good for them but bad for everyday Americans. It scares people into making decisions that they normally wouldn't in order to save something that they never ever were ever going to lose in the first place.
▶ 1:16:17That tactic is used in this committee time and time again, and I believe it's being used again here today with this I hear from my younger constituents in my district all the time about how they don't ever, ever expect they're going to be able to afford to own their own home.
▶ 1:16:38And the idea of being able to save enough for a down payment on a house in any major city or suburb is something that has become completely out of reach for people who aren't wealthy. Which that should disturb everyone in this committee, everyone in this room. When the dream of owning your own home is slipping further out of reach for just everyday people.
▶ 1:17:06When so many people do everything right, they play by the rules and they have absolutely nothing to show for it. We should be spending this time discussing legislation that will ensure that every American can spend less of their money on college for their children, prescription drugs, and child care so that they can put that money towards their very first home.
▶ 1:17:35I encourage all of my colleagues to vote no on this measure and I yield.
▶ 1:17:43I thank the gentle lady. Are there any others who wish to speak on this? I recognize the gentleman from New York to speak on this amendment and nature of a substitute to Mr. Manion.
▶ 1:17:58Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move to strike the last word. I support the individuals working as direct sellers and real estate agents. These are professionals who help facilitate home ownership and job creation in our communities. Many of them value the flexibility that comes with being an independent contractor. And under both the Internal Revenue Code and current labor standards, that is almost always how they are treated. This bill would not meaningfully change the day-to-day reality for these workers.
▶ 1:18:27What it would do is carve out entire occupations from the Fair Labor Standards Act categorically and permanently. That kind of exception risks weakening one of our bedrock labor laws. Unfortunately, this proposal is not an isolated one. We've seen this pattern before, chipping away at federal labor laws piece by piece until fewer and fewer workers enjoy the protections that were put in place to ensure fair treatment, decent wages, and a level playing field.
▶ 1:18:56I disagree with this approach. Instead of spending our time tampering with definitions and labor law, we should be focusing on the larger issues and ensuring that all workers, no matter their industry or classification, have the tools and safeguards they need to succeed. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.
▶ 1:19:14I thank the gentleman. Are there any others who seek to be recognized to speak? I recognize a gentleman from Virginia, the ranking member, Mr. Scott.
▶ 1:19:23Thank you, Mr. Chairman. going to move to second last word. And Mr. Chairman, this this is the first bill to carve out real estate agents. This bill will carve out real estate agents, direct sellers, and newspaper delivery persons from the Fair Labor Standards Act.
▶ 1:19:39We're considering this bill without the benefit of any hearings to not to dwell into the issues of these industries, any problems they may be experiencing under the FLSA, and indeed whether there are any problems that require a legislative remedy, or any notice of unintended consequences that this bill could create.
▶ 1:20:01Now, we've heard multiple hearings that there is a broad war on independent contractors, but contrary to those claims, there's never been a war against independent contractors. Just to restate the obvious, the economics realities test and the Fair Labor Standards Act was in place for decades without disruption until the first Trump administration issued a rule to radically rewrite it and make it easier for companies to mclassify workers as independent contractors, taking away their rights to decent
▶ 1:20:31working conditions and fair pay. The Biden administration did nothing more in its independent contractor rule than to reinstate the test that had been in place for decades. But this rule, this bill would undermine the independence of many people who now work in sales and real estate. There are many people who've enjoyed independent work as real estate agents and direct sellers, working at their own pace and living off the commissions they've earned. But if this bill passes, all bets are off.
▶ 1:21:00Real estate agents are required under state laws to affiliate with real estate brokers who must ensure legal compliance with state laws for property sales. But if real estate agents are categorically excluded from ever being considered employees under the LFSA, the brokers who already sit in powerful positions would be able to require agents to surrender all independence by requiring them to report to an office, work set hours, and meet pretty
▶ 1:21:30much any other employment requirement that the broker sets. broker would then be able to exercise the same amount of control that any employer has, but without having to worry about any employment laws. Keep in mind that the FLSA already accommodates real estate industry's pay practices, even if real estate broker was deemed an employer. The FSSA already allows for commissionbased pay by excluding the industry from the minimum wage and overtime rules.
▶ 1:22:00But if this bill passes, agencies could lose their independence as well as rights to family and medical leave or any other rights uh that they may uh may have. The same is true for direct sellers and newspaper delivery. There are real problems that we could spend our time to address like wage theft and mclassification which robers of hundreds of millions of dollars they've rightly rightly earned. America's workers need this committee to get back to work on their behalf, not wealthy corporate special interests.
▶ 1:22:30And for these reasons, I urge my colleagues to oppose the bill and yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 1:22:36I thank the gentleman. Are there any other members who wish to be recognized? I recognize the gentle lady from Oregon.
▶ 1:22:42Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word and speak in
▶ 1:22:46You are recognized.
▶ 1:22:47Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I I want to align myself with the uh comments made by uh my colleagues uh Mr. Manion, Miss McBth, and and Ranking Member Scott. Um, when I look at a piece of legislation or or an issue here in Congress, I always ask, what's the problem we're trying to solve? We haven't had a hearing on this bill. Uh, and I'm not hearing, you know, we're of course real estate agents and direct sellers have an important role uh and for our communities and our economy, but we we haven't had a hearing.
▶ 1:23:16we have not established there is a problem here to solve. It looks like an attempt to take rights away from people uh when there isn't really a problem. And so I I I urge us to defeat this if if you want to have a hearing on it so we can establish that there's a problem to solve. Uh we could do that but at this point uh I urge my colleagues to vote no and I yield back.
▶ 1:23:38I thank the gentle lady. Are there any other members who wish to speak on this amendment in the nature of substitute? Mr. Chairman,
▶ 1:23:48for what purposes the gentleman from Virginia seek recognition,
▶ 1:23:52ask unanous consent that a letter from the National Employment Lawyers Association in opposition to HR 3495 be entered into the record.
▶ 1:24:02Without objection and hearing none, they'll be entered. Any further members wish to speak on this amendment and nature of a Are there any members who would like to offer amendments? There being no amendments, the question now occurs on the amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 3495. All in favor say I.
▶ 1:24:32I. All oppose. No.
▶ 1:24:36In the opinion of chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. will now move to consider the next bill.
▶ 1:24:53The committee will now proceed to consideration of the bill HR5169 for amendment. The bill was circulated in advance and printed copies are available. The clerk shall designate the a bill to employ to to amend the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 to provide a clear definition of adequate consideration for certain closely held stock and for other
▶ 1:25:21Without objection, the first reading of the bill is dispensed with. Without objection, the bill will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point and any amendment offered shall be considered as read. Does anyone seek recogni seek to be recognized? Mr. Allen, for what purpose do you seek
▶ 1:25:39Uh, Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk.
▶ 1:25:42The clerk shall designate the amendment in the nature of a substitute?
▶ 1:25:45Amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR 5169 offered by Mr. Allen of Georgia, identifier HR5169_s.
▶ 1:25:56Without objection, the amendment shall be considered original text for purposes of further amendment. The amendment in the nature of a substitute has already been distributed. I now recognize Mr. Allen for five minutes to explain the amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 1:26:10Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. HR5169, the retire through ownership act provides valuation guidelines to employee stock ownership plans or better known as ESOPs. An ESOP is a retirement plan designed to invest primarily in employer stock. ESOPs build wealth for employees to retire and also give employees an ownership stake in their employer for more than 50 years.
▶ 1:26:36Ever since the enactment of Orisa, ESOP fidiciaries have been waiting for guidance on how to value the employer stock that their plans purchase. The Department of Labor has never published definitive guidance. Instead, DO began a national enforcement project targeting ESOPs.
▶ 1:26:54Rather than tell the ESOP community how to value the stock, do use legal actions and settlements to guide ESOP stock pra purchases in a practice stakeholders call regulation by The Retirement Through Ownership Act uses Internal Revenue Service guidelines which are tried and trueue guidelines issued under revenue ruling 59-60, including companion rulings issued by the Internal Revenue
▶ 1:27:25Service from time to time. The bill also provides that an ESOP fidiciary may rely in good faith on evaluation provided by an independent evaluator or appraiser that is based on these IRS guidelines. The retire through ownership act will bring an end to the uncertainty that ESOPs have experienced over 50 years. By doing so, the bill encourages encourages the establishment and maintenance of more ESOPs.
▶ 1:27:51In July, a companion to HR5169 was unanimously approved by the Senate Committee on the Health, Education, and Labor and Pensions. The amendment in the nature of a substitute that I am offering includes changes to make HR more closely matched language requested by Senate Democrats which were incorporated in the Senate companion bill.
▶ 1:28:15I included these changes in the ANS in a bipartisan spirit and I look forward to bipartisan support for this bill today. The ANS makes three changes to HR 5169. Uh, it clarifies that the Secretary of Labor may issue regulations on this legislation. It clarifies the bill does not expand the Secretary of Labor's authority.
▶ 1:28:36And finally, it clarifies that no changes are being made to Orisa section 404, which contains fidiciary obligations of prudence and loyalty. Finally, thanks goes to the ESOP Association for working tirelessly to advance a solution on stock valuation. urge my colleagues to vote yes on the ANS and to support the Retire through Ownership Act. With that, I yield back. Mr. Chairman,
▶ 1:29:03I thank the gentlemen. Uh, are there any members who wish to be recognized?
▶ 1:29:09Gentle lady from uh from uh Georgia. For what purpose do you seek to be
▶ 1:29:14Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wish to speak in support of the amendment and the nature of the substitute.
▶ 1:29:20You're recognized.
▶ 1:29:21Thank you very much. Um this bill would provide clarity for employee stock uh ownership plans ESOPS and I am proud to support the bill that is sponsored by my colleague Mr. Allen from the great state of Georgia. There is so much more that we can do here in Congress to ensure that every American has enough to retire and has access to a retirement plan that actually works for them.
▶ 1:29:47The Safer Act is one of the bills that I was able to get signed into law as part of the Secure 2.0 with a former member of this committee, Mr. Schmucker. Helps people escape domestic violence by allowing them to access their funds from their retirement plans without having to pay a hefty penalty fee. This was a change that makes a real difference in people's lives. It's something that I'm incredibly proud of.
▶ 1:30:15But the only way that someone can take advantage of it is if they have a retirement plan to begin with. The Congressional Research Service put out a report earlier this year showing that almost half of all Americans have no savings retirement accounts at all. And as our population continues to age, this is going to be a serious serious problem.
▶ 1:30:40Social Security, as great as it is, was never meant to be America's sole retirement plan. But that is the unfortunate reality for most of the population, or at least half of our population here in the United States.
▶ 1:30:56I do look forward to working in a bipartisan way to ensure that every American has access to a retirement account that will give them the peace of mind that they won't have to unexpectedly go back to work when they're in their 70s or their 80s.
▶ 1:31:14the peace of mind that they won't have to spend time that they want to be spending time at home with their grandkids or their husband or wife going back to work working for minimum wage because that's the only job that they could get. So, I encourage all of my colleagues to vote in favor of this bill. I look forward to doing so much more to support ESOPs and Americans hoping to retire with the dignity and the respect that they truly deserve.
▶ 1:31:44And I yield.
▶ 1:31:46Thank you, M. Thank you, Miss M. McBath. For what purposes does the gentle lady from North Carolina uh seek to be
▶ 1:31:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word.
▶ 1:31:58You are recognized, Miss Adams.
▶ 1:31:59Thank you. I do want to speak in favor of uh HR 5169. the Retire Through Ownership Act. Uh employee stock ownership plans or ESOPS provide working people with an equity stake in their workplace. And so the system improves employee uh retention. It helps to address racial and gender based wealth gaps.
▶ 1:32:21In August, I had the pleasure of visiting an an ESOP company in my district, and I heard from countless workers who who told me that while having a share in their workplace is really meaningful to them. Having a stake in their workplace provides my constituents with a share of the wealth that they help create every day and guarantees retirement income.
▶ 1:32:43For decades, ESOC fidiciaries have have faced unclear guidance on on how to appraise privately and held com uh held companies stock. And after decades of uncertainty, the the Retire Through Ownership Act allows planned fiduciaries to to rely on existing IRS guidance when valuing company stock. Almost 15 million workers rely on ESAP.
▶ 1:33:10They rely on these plans for for their retirement, which is why both enforcement of regular law and regulatory uh clarity are necessary to expand this valuable program while ensuring that workers are protected from bad actors. The retirement the retire owner through ownership act will encourage the creation of new ESOPs without compromising protections for employers. It is a common sense bipartisan bill.
▶ 1:33:40I'm happy to support it. It provides a simple fix for for decades long problems that that allows the Department of Labor to pursue additional rulemaking if it is needed. Uh uh Mr. Chair, I encourage my colleagues to support this legislation and I yield back.
▶ 1:33:59I thank the gentle lady. I now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Scott.
▶ 1:34:04Thank you, M. Mr. Chairman. Move second last word. An employee stock ownership plan or an ESOP is a retirement plan that is designed to invest primarily in the stock of the sponsoring employer, thus providing employees with an equity stake in the company for which they work. According to the National Center for Employee Ownership, there are over 6,500 ESOPs in the United States, covering about 15 million participants. ESOPS can provide valuable retirement benefits to employees.
▶ 1:34:34There are many examples of successful ESOPs in all of our districts and ESOPs have bipartisan support in Congress. However, an ESOP in an ESOP employees retirement savings are largely invested in employer stock. So, if a company goes out of business, employees could lose their jobs as well as a potential sizable amount of their retirement savings.
▶ 1:34:58So it's important that EPSAB be appropriately funded and staffed to ensure that ESOPS comply with the law. This is also imperative that ESOPS adhere to ORISA rules particularly when it comes to valuation and purchase of an employer stock to ensure that workers are getting a fair deal.
▶ 1:35:15This is called quote adequate consideration and the term is defined in Orisa as the fair market value of the asset is determined in good faith by the trustee or named fiduciary pursuant to the terms of a plan and in accordance with regulations promagated by the secretary. Now while this while there was a proposed rule to define adequate consideration back in it was never finalized.
▶ 1:35:42And similarly, the Biden administration proposed an adequate consideration regulation in January, but it along with other agency regulations was pulled back by the Trump administration in January. In the absence of the regulation, the stakeholder community is looking for further guidance from Congress on the guidelines that could be used to valuate to to uh establish the valuation for employer stock.
▶ 1:36:08HR5169, the Retirement Through Ownership Act, permits an ESOP to rely in good faith on an independent valuation if that valuation relies on the Internal Revenue Services long-standing guidelines on valuing the fair market value of private businesses. The Senate counterpart of the bill, which was introduced by bipartisan senators Marshall of Kansas, and my colleague from Virginia, Tim Kaine, was unanimously approved by the Senate Help Committee in July.
▶ 1:36:39And I appreciate uh that Chairman Walberg, and the bill's author, Mr. Allen introduced language in the um amendment of nature of substitute clarifying that the labor department retains the authority to promagate future regulations around adequate consideration and affirmatively stating that Orisa's fiduciary responsibilities and protections still apply with this language.
▶ 1:37:05The bill aligns with its Senate counterpart that was unanimously approved by the Senate Help Committee. With those changes, Mr. Chairman, I urge my colleagues to support the bill and yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 1:37:16I thank the gentleman. For what purposes the gentle lady, Miss Bonamichi from Oregon, seek to be recognized.
▶ 1:37:21I move to strike the last word and speak in favor of HR 5169 amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 1:37:28You are recognized.
▶ 1:37:29Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to speak in favor of this uh uh amendment in the nature of a substitute and and thank uh Mr. Allen for for bringing this forward. A retirement security is something I hear about all across Northwest Oregon in the district I'm honored to represent. And employee stock ownership plans or ESOPs are one way of providing more security for people who desperately want that and need it in today's economic world.
▶ 1:37:56Uh over the summer I was able to visit with Woodfold Manufacturing in Forest Grove, Oregon, a great company that is an ESOP. And I heard as some of my colleagues have mentioned about what that means for the company and retention and security for the employees. Bob's Redm Mill also a company in Oregon. There's been ESOP for years. This model is something that really provides uh an incentive for people to stay with a company uh to benefit from the work that they do overall.
▶ 1:38:26And I agree that we can do more to support ESOPS, but today uh this is a step in the right direction. Uh, I just wanted to mention uh I agree with ranking member Scott about how we have to have those employee protections and make sure that we're funding appropriately the regulatory bodies. But for now, this is a step in the right direction, a bipartisan step in the right direction, and I urge all of my colleagues to join me in supporting the amendment in the nature of a substitute to HR1 5169.
▶ 1:38:56And I yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 1:38:58I thank the gentle lady. Are there any other members who wish to be recognized for further discussion? There being no further discussion on the amendment and the nature of a substitute, the committee will move to the consideration of amendments. Are there any members who would like to offer amendments? There being no amendments, the question now occurs on the amendment and the nature of a substitute to HR 5169. All in favor say I. I. All oppose? No.
▶ 1:39:30I like that sound. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment and the nature of a substitute is agreed to. Thank you for the committee's attention to these bills today. Pursuant to previous order, the chair declares the committee in recess subject to the call of the chair. expect to reconvene promptly at 300 p.m. for votes. Thank you.
▶ 1:40:00Uh so the committee now stands in
▶ 5:00:48While while we're uh waiting for some judiciary and foreign affairs people to show up,
▶ 5:00:54you might want to take your voting
▶ 5:06:38Heat. Heat.
▶ 5:09:36We'll call the committee back into uh session. And uh as we said earlier, if you want to make sure you hit the on button on your voting card there, it may have gone off for some of you who hit it earlier on. That will keep us all on I hereby move that the committee report the bill HR1723 to the House of Representatives with amendment and with the recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and the bill do pass.
▶ 5:10:05The question now occurs uh on the chair's motion. All in favor say I. I. All opposed.
▶ 5:10:15In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the motion is agreed to.
▶ 5:10:20Recorded vote has been requested. Members will record their votes using electronic voting system. The chairman intends to vote I. Thank you intends to vote no.
▶ 5:10:32Clerk will open the board. Have all members been recorded who wish to be recorded?
▶ 5:10:52Mr. Com.
▶ 5:10:53That was done just to wake you up. Okay. Have all members been recorded who wish to be recorded? Do any members wish to change their Hearing none, will the clerk please close the vote and announce the tally?
▶ 5:11:24Mr. Chairman, on this vote there are 19 yays and 16 nazs. The eyes have it and a motion is agreed to. HR 1723 as amended and the accompanying material shall be transmitted to the House of Representatives. The chair notes for the record that a quorum is present. I hereby move to that the committee report the bill HR 2958 to the House of Representatives with amendment and with the recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and the bill do pass.
▶ 5:11:52The question now occurs on the chair's motion. All in favor say I.
▶ 5:11:56I. All oppose. No.
▶ 5:11:59In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the motion is agreed to. Recorded vote is requested. members will record their votes using electronic voting system. The chairman tends to vote I.
▶ 5:12:13Ranking member intends to vote no.
▶ 5:12:15Please open the vote. Have all members been recorded or wish to be recorded? Do any members wish to change their
▶ 5:12:33Hearing none, will the clerk please close the vote and announce the tally?
▶ 5:12:37Mr. Chairman, on this vote, there are 19 ys and 16 nazs.
▶ 5:12:40The eyes have it and the motion is agreed to HR 2958 as amended and the accompanying material shall be transmissed transmitted to the House of Representatives. The chair notes for the record that a quorum is present. I hereby move that the committee report the bill HR2844 to the House of Representatives with amendment and with the recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and the bill do pass. The question now occurs on the chair's motion. All in favor say I. I.
▶ 5:13:10All oppose? No.
▶ 5:13:12In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the motion is agreed to.
▶ 5:13:16Recorder vote is requested. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting system. The chairman intends to vote I.
▶ 5:13:22Thank you. Member intends to vote no.
▶ 5:13:24Please open the vote. Have all members been recorded who wish to be recorded? Do any members wish to change their Hearing none, will the clerk please close the vote and announce the tally?
▶ 5:13:44Mr. Chairman, on this vote there are 19 yays and 16 nays.
▶ 5:13:48The eyes have it. The motion is agreed to HR 2844 as amended and the accompanying material shall be transmitted to the House of Representatives. The chair notes that for the record that a quorum is present. I hereby move that the committee report the bill HR2869 to the House of Representatives with amendment and with the recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and the bill do pass. The question now occurs on the chair's motion. All in favor say I. I.
▶ 5:14:16All oppose. No.
▶ 5:14:19In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the motion is agreed to.
▶ 5:14:23Record a vote.
▶ 5:14:24Record a vote is requested. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting system. The chairman intends to vote. I
▶ 5:14:31Thank you. Member please vote no.
▶ 5:14:33Please open the vote. Have all members been recorded who wish to be recorded? Do any members wish to change their Hearing none, will the clerk please close the vote and announce the tally?
▶ 5:14:52Mr. Chairman, on this vote, there are 19 yays and 16 nays.
▶ 5:14:55The eyes have it and the motion is agreed to. HR 2869 as amended and the company material shall be transmitted to the House of Representatives. The chair notes for the record that the quorum is I hereby move that the committee report the bill HR 3495 to the House of Representatives with amendment and with a recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and that bill do pass. The question now occurs on the chair's motion. All in favor say I. I.
▶ 5:15:24In the opinion all okay oppose? No.
▶ 5:15:31Do you want to do it again? No.
▶ 5:15:33Okay. In the opinion of chair, the eyes have it and the motion is agreed to.
▶ 5:15:37Recorded vote.
▶ 5:15:38Recorded vote is requested. Members will record their votes using electronic voting system. The chairman intends to vote I.
▶ 5:15:45Thank you member pretends to vote no.
▶ 5:15:46Please open the vote. Have all members been recorded or wish to be recorded?
▶ 5:15:58Do any members wish to change their Hearing none. Will the clerk please close the vote and announce the tally?
▶ 5:16:04Mr. Chairman, on this vote there are 19 yays and 16 nays.
▶ 5:16:07The eyes have it and the motion is agreed to. HR 3495 as amended and the accompanying material shall be transmitted to the House of Representatives. The chair notes for the record that a quorum is present. I hereby move that the committee report the bill HR5169 to the House of Representatives with amendment and with the recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and the bill do pass. The question now occurs on the chair's motion. All in favor say I.
▶ 5:16:35All oppose, no.
▶ 5:16:38In the in the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the motion is agreed to. Does anyone request a record vote?
▶ 5:16:45Record a vote is requested. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting system. The chairman intends to vote I.
▶ 5:16:52The ranking member intends to vote I.
▶ 5:16:54Please open the vote. Have all members been recorded who wish to be recorded? Do any members wish to change their vote? Hearing none, will the clerk please close the vote and announce the tally?
▶ 5:17:14Mr. Chairman, on this vote, there are 35 yays and no naz.
▶ 5:17:18The eyes have it. The motion is agreed to. HR5169 as amended and the accompanying material shall be transmitted to the House of Representatives. The chair notes for the record that a quorum is present. I ask unanimous consent that staff be authorized to make necessary technical and conforming changes to today's bills without objection so ordered. Pursuant to House Rule 11, clause 2L.
▶ 5:17:43I give notice that all members have the requisite number of days to file supplemental minor additional minority additional or desending views. Without objection, so ordered. Without objection, any members who wish to insert materials into the record may do so by submitting them to the committee clerk electronically by the end of the day today. If there's no further business before the committee, without objection, I say thank you to the committee members on both sides for your work.
▶ 5:18:12And without objection, the committee stands adjourned.