▶ 0:00:00. >> thank you. The mississippi river basin isn't just a river system. It's the backbone of our country. The basin's water comes from 31 states, carries about 40% of the america's water, and supports communities, farms and industries from the midwest all the way down to the gulf coast. The basin is home for great fishing, and a quarter of all north american fish species.
▶ 0:00:21Recreational fishing alone brings in about 26 billion to the economy every year, directly supporting our communities, small businesses and families who depend on healthy waters. But managing the largest river system in north america requires diligent collaboration. 31 states, several tribal nations and at least seven federal agencies all share some responsibilities for the basin's fisheries.
▶ 0:00:49However, the coordination is inconsistent and funding is often unreliable. My bill, h.r. 1514, the mississippi river basin fishery commission, would help to fix that by providing structure and a stable funding stream for states, tribes, and federal partners to work together. The mississippi river basin fishery commission would be housed under the department of the interior and built on a voluntary partnership.
▶ 0:01:16Each state would be represented by the chief of fisheries to ensure that all decisions are based on local needs and local science, not D.C. bureaucrats. The commission wouldn't add any new mandates or federal control. It focuses authority on collaboration. Communication, not regulations. We use this very model back home on the mississippi gulf coast.
▶ 0:01:39We've seen what the gulf states marine fisheries commission has been able to accomplish, as brought states together to share data, coordinate management, and protect shared resources by authorizing the mississippi river basin fishery commission.
▶ 0:01:56We're giving our states the tools and stability they need to protect one of the world's most important river systems, and to make sure it continues supporting jobs, recreation and healthy ecosystems for future generations. Mr. biden, thank you for being here today to testify before the subcommittee on this very important matter. Madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you. Mr. Mr.
▶ 0:02:22Rutherford could not join us this morning due to a scheduling conflict, but he has provided a written statement in support of the fisheries data modernization and accuracy act of 2025. I ask unanimous consent to enter. Enter congressman rutherford's written testimony into the record. Without objection. So ordered. I now recognize congressman costa for five minutes.
▶ 0:02:49>> thank you very much, madam chairperson and ranking member, hoyle, it's nice to be here in this committee. I was a member for 18 years. It's familiar turf and it's nice to be back. Uh, I'm excited about the legislation, the bipartisan legislation that I have to present to you. Um, my bill, h.r. 33 8338, every drop counts act, uh, is, um, a part of a bipartisan effort.
▶ 0:03:17Glad that we've got, uh, christine compton from the irvine ranch water district here to testify on the benefits of the spill. As many of you know, I represent, along with my colleagues, uh, what we think is the most prolific productivity of agriculture anywhere in the country and therefore the world, uh, the breadbasket of the san joaquin valley, where water is the lifeblood that keeps the critical industry going, as we like to say.
▶ 0:03:45And in california, uh, in the valley where water flows, food grows, where water flows, food grows. And I have been a participant in these efforts for decades, chairing the state senate, agriculture and water committee back in the day. And, uh, obviously, I've done a lot of work on water, and I believe in subscribing to using all the water tools in our water toolbox, and that includes surface storage supply.
▶ 0:04:13It includes conservation and includes water transfers for best use. And it includes groundwater recharge, which is what this legislation is all about. Uh, groundwater plays a critical role in california's water supply, often acting as a main source of water in areas without access to surface water.
▶ 0:04:32Yet, sadly, and it's just not in california, but in the midwest and other parts of the country, we've overdrafted that groundwater in really, uh, critical ways, and it's had a damaging effect to land subsidence, not only in the valley but elsewhere. I'm talking about land subsidence of 10 to 20ft and more that has disrupted existing infrastructure that we've had in place. And so, um, I liken, uh, the impact. And let me give you some examples.
▶ 0:05:01Uh, in the san joaquin valley, land subsidence has impacted the friant-kern canal, which has seen capacity to deliver water in a federal project that was developed in the 1950s by 60%, reduced the capacity of that system that was built in the 50s by 60% in some areas. Similarly, the delta-mendota canal has resulted in submerged canal surface turnouts and drain inlets and bridges and pipelines and control structures.
▶ 0:05:28Again, because of the groundwater impacts and the subsidence that we've taken place. You know, I liken it to, uh, you know, common sense. When I first went to fresno state, uh, I got my checking account. I thought it was pretty hot stuff. My dad told me, he said, hey, kid, you know, you can only write those checks as long as you're making deposits. Well, this is the problem with our groundwater.
▶ 0:05:54Unless we have a balance, unless we're making deposits, we can't continue to utilize that groundwater. And so california, back in the, uh, about ten years ago, passed the sustainable groundwater management act, known as sgma. It's otherwise known, um, as but it's it's a difficult piece of law, but it's necessary, and we're attempting to comply with it.
▶ 0:06:15We have milestones in 2025, 2030, 2035, ultimately to come into compliance, to bring our groundwater in balance with our surface water and our multiple uses. That's the goal. And we're working on it. Uh, and it's combats land subsidence to ensure that we have a sustainable supply of that water for agriculture.
▶ 0:06:35Uh, collaborative efforts spurred by sigma and recent droughts are working these partnerships between farmers, ranchers, state and local officials in a pivotal year 2023, uh, was able to lead to the recharge of 1.6 million acre feet of groundwater in that, uh, period of time between 2023 and 2024, anywhere between 1.6 and 2.2 million acre feet.
▶ 0:07:02That's a lot of water that has raised the surface. And to better manage california's groundwater and provide our farmers with more tools. Out of those four tools in our water toolbox for management, along with my colleague russ fulcher from idaho, I've introduced this legislation. Every drop counts.
▶ 0:07:20Now I want to put, uh, two pictures here, because those of us who deal with water all the time, we know about what a 30,000 acre feet of water looks like, or maybe 100,000 acre feet of water looks like, uh, because we deal with it all the time. Uh, but, uh, this this picture poster is barrett reservoir in san diego county, and this represents about 34,000 acre feet of water.
▶ 0:07:43So you can understand what it looks like to put 1.6 million or 2.2 million acre feet into our ground supply. This here is the poster that I think is in doug lamalfa district black butte, lake glenn, and tahoma counties. This reservoir has 144,000 acre feet.
▶ 0:08:04What this would do, this legislation, every drop counts, would expand groundwater projects from 30,000 acre feet, which is the limit under the current law to allow for projects up to 150,000 acre feet are the size of that second reservoir that I showed you. So it's very important. Let me close because I know I'm spending on my time. That's why they kicked me off the committee a couple of years ago. Not real.
▶ 0:08:30But, um, the bill also expands the eligibility criteria not only from 30,000 to 150,000 acre feet, but it would include aquifer stabilization efforts to ensure more projects in western united states like the eastern snake river plain aquifer and ii, and other projects. That would be very important. I would like for unanimous consent to enter in the record the farm family water alliance testimony. They couldn't be here.
▶ 0:08:56The idaho water resources board and the letter of support for the san luis delta mendota water authority, of which I work with very closely. All of these organizations and groups support it, and I'd like to. >> without objection. So ordered. >> I'll close on this last statement. Madam chairperson, you've been very patient, and thank you. To adequately prepare for the next mega drought across the west, because we know we have we have floods and we have droughts.
▶ 0:09:22This bipartisan efforts helps spurs and not stifle investment into better water management for groundwater, for agriculture, for urban and environmental uses. And I thank you for the consideration of this bill, and I'd be happy to answer any questions. As you can see, I'm excited about the legislation and to be back here in the committee. Thank you. >> thank you. Uh, wyoming first recognized the relationship between surface water and groundwater in 1945. And as a result, we've largely avoided any kind of groundwater mining, uh, which has plagued some of our other states.
▶ 0:09:52Uh, I want to thank the members for their testimony, and I will now introduce the witnesses on our second panel. Mr. ben batton, chairman of the mississippi interstate cooperative resource association from little rock, arkansas. Welcome. Mr. justin conrad, chair elect of the national fisheries institute from greensboro, north carolina. Thank you for being here.
▶ 0:10:13Miss christine compton, the director of strategic communications and advocacy and deputy general counsel of the irvine irvine ranch water district from irvine, california. We're glad you're here. And doctor cj sweetman, the federal fisheries section leader of the florida fish and wildlife conservation commission division of marine fisheries management from tallahassee, florida. Thank you for coming.
▶ 0:10:38Under committee rules, you must limit your oral statements to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone. And as you see, we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of the five minutes, the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I will also allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning.
▶ 0:11:06I now recognize chairman westerman to introduce Mr. baton. >> thank you, chair hageman. And good to see our friend Mr. costa back on the committee today. Uh, I know he's passionate about california water, and hopefully we can help him solve some of those issues, but, madam chair, it's always good to see an arkansan here in congress. And I'm proud to welcome ben baton, who is the deputy director of the arkansas game and fish commission, to the subcommittee for today's hearing.
▶ 0:11:35Uh, ben has been a long or has had a long career of service to the natural state and is more than 16 years with the commission. Some people think he's actually from arkansas, but he moved there. But we we claim him and want to keep him there. He's worked particularly in fisheries management.
▶ 0:11:53And in addition to his professional experience, he holds a master's degree in fisheries management from the university of arkansas at pine bluff, which is in my district, in which is a very well known fishery school, uh, across the country. Ben, I appreciate you being here today and taking time to participate in the hearing, and I look forward to the discussion. Madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. westerman. I now recognize Mr. baton for five minutes.
▶ 0:12:20>> good morning, chair and ranking member hoyle and members of the committee. I am truly honored to address you regarding house resolution 1514, the proposed mississippi river basin fishery commission act of 2025. Again, my name is ben baton, and I proudly serve as deputy director of the arkansas game and fish commission, and I also serve as the chairman of the mississippi interstate cooperative resource association, or mcra.
▶ 0:12:43And since its inception in 1991, micro is an association of 28 state wildlife and fisheries agencies, along with the united states fish and wildlife service and the united states geological survey that collaborates on the management of interjurisdictional fisheries and aquatic resources across the mississippi river basin. The mississippi river basin is an ecosystem of immense global significance.
▶ 0:13:07It's the largest watershed in the united states and the fourth largest on the planet, covering over 41% of the continental united states, including 31 states and over one point 2,000,000mi. This immense scale inherently creates complex challenges for cooperative resource management across numerous jurisdictions. The basin's fishery resources are crucial, uh, supporting a wide range of subsistence, commercial, and recreational activities.
▶ 0:13:34Recreational fishing alone has an estimated $26 billion per year. Economic impact. Nationally, fishing related expenditures totaled nearly 100,000,000,000 in 2022. The sustainability of these resources is fundamentally dependent on effective state and federal collaboration. Fisheries in the basin face critical and escalating threats, including water quality and quantity issues, habitat fragmentation and degradation, and invasion of aquatic invasive species such as carp and mussels.
▶ 0:14:02The complexity is compounded by interjurisdictional native species. At least 90 different fish species migrate hundreds or thousands of miles across multiple states and jurisdictional boundaries. This scale demands an elevated perspective and an enhanced level of collaboration among management agencies. Currently, despite the economic, ecological, and social importance of these fisheries, there is no congressionally recognized interstate compact or federal legislation.
▶ 0:14:30Legislation designed to guide or facilitate cooperative fisheries management for the entire basin. This act would designed to fill that gap and would establish the fishery commission to facilitate basin wide interagency collaboration for fisheries management, establish shared management objectives, and enable collaborative planning, implementation and evaluation of research and management activities.
▶ 0:14:54This structure is necessary to ensure long term biological and economic sustainability of the interjurisdictional fisheries resources. Substantial investments have been made in habitat restoration and eyes control, but there has been little to no direct investment in managing sustainable interjurisdictional fisheries themselves. The framework for the mississippi river basin commission is a proven model, mimicking successful commissions that manage interjurisdictional fisheries in the great lakes, the gulf, atlantic and pacific.
▶ 0:15:23We closely consulted the great lakes fishery commission model, which was formed in the 1950s to combat sea lamprey invasions, and we find ourselves in a similar fight today against numerous invasive species. The commission will provide a crucial organizational framework and a permanent formal governance structure for managing these shared resources. Entities eligible to voluntarily join include the 31 states within the basin.
▶ 0:15:47All us federally recognized tribal nations, and relevant federal agencies, including the us fish and wildlife service, the us geological survey, and the us army corps of engineers. A core function of the fishery commission will be to provide stable and dedicated funding to support essential research, personnel and management actions. This funding will be distributed through two mechanisms. First, a formula based noncompetitive grant awarded to state member entities for eligible interjurisdictional fisheries work.
▶ 0:16:16This predictable and stable funding is crucial for states to make long term investments in personnel and equipment to tackle problems like carp. Competitive grants will also be available to states, ngos and higher education institutions to undertake projects and research outlined in basin plans. It's important to note that fishery commission will operate with non-binding authority. It will not supersede the existing sovereign management authority of any member state and commission. Decisions will be made through consensus.
▶ 0:16:44For years, states within the mississippi river basin have managed these resources with limited formal structure or dedicated funding. Fish do not know state boundaries, and unfortunately, invasive species do not either. We're far past the time for this commission to be established.
▶ 0:17:01We need congress to provide the mississippi river basin with the tools it vitally needs to succeed in restoring and protecting america's watershed, to eradicate invasive carp, conserve habitat, and secure our native sportfish along with paddlefish, sturgeon, and many other important populations. For current and future anglers to enjoy, I urge the committee to pass this legacy piece of legislation. The mississippi river basin fishery commission act. >> thank you for your testimony.
▶ 0:17:29I actually am quite surprised that there has not previously been an organization like this created, considering how incredibly complicated this is. I now recognize Mr. conrad for five minutes. >> chair, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. Good morning, and thank you for having me here. My name is justin conrad. I'm from greensboro, north carolina.
▶ 0:17:51I'm the founder and ceo of bay hill seafood sales, the president of libby hill seafood restaurants, and the chair elect of the national fisheries institute, otherwise known as nfi. I'm also a proud husband and my wife, andrea, and father to our three girls. Nfi is a leading voice for the commercial seafood industry, with over 300 members spanning the entire seafood value chain from domestic harvesters, vessel owners, exporters, processors, distributors, importers, cold storage, restaurants and retailers.
▶ 0:18:21Nfi represents the seafood industry from water to table. The responsible management of our oceans is extremely important not only to our members livelihood and businesses, but also to the families we help feed. My pardon today's hearing focuses on the fighting foreign illegal seafood harvest or the fish act. The fish act aims to help eliminate illegally caught seafood from entering the united states to begin iuu fishing.
▶ 0:18:47Where it occurs is a black mark on the global industry, bringing both direct and collateral harm that calls for deliberate and decisive policy action. Iuu seafood damages our industry by undermining legitimate harvesters, undercutting fishery management systems, and eroding consumer confidence in the sustainability of seafood. Our members take a back seat to no one in our efforts to ensure the seafood we sell has been caught legally.
▶ 0:19:14Over the past two decades, nfi has supported a number of initiatives to detect and reduce iuu fishing, including the port state measures agreement, the better seafood board, the international coalition of fisheries association and the wto agreement on fisheries subsidies. These initiatives utilize both multilateral and bilateral government to government approach to halt iuu fishing before it enters commerce.
▶ 0:19:40One effort that just hasn't worked is the seafood import monitoring program, or cep. Cemp was created by regulation back in 2016. From day one, it's been burdensome and unworkable for us seafood producers, processors and distributors. Even the national marine fisheries service has said outright that cemp does not prevent or stop iuu fish and products from entering us commerce.
▶ 0:20:05One of the main problems with cemp is this data collection occurs after the harvest event, so it doesn't stop illegal fishing. And oddly enough, cep even covers some aquaculture products. How can farmed fish be illegally fished? That just doesn't make sense. We commend president trump's seafood executive order for also recognizing cep as a failed program, and directing secretary lutnick to explore ways to narrow the program's reach.
▶ 0:20:32However, we would go further and scrap cep in its entirety. Scrapping cep and starting over would allow nymphs and other agencies a chance to focus on government to government initiatives that actually work at combating iuu. To get back to the reason I'm here today, h.r. 3756, the fish act, a bipartisan bill sponsored by representatives crenshaw, magaziner, and begich, is one of those initiatives that offers a way to fight iuu at its source.
▶ 0:21:02The fish act would go after the bad actors. It would do so by creating a blacklist or iuu vessel, list of foreign vessels and owners that have engaged in iuu fishing and put sanctions on these owners. The fish act would bolster bilateral and multilateral initiatives, including having the coast guard increase at sea inspections and help train other countries and rfmos for vessel inspection.
▶ 0:21:27And we look to new technologies to help against iuu in a variety of ways. Nfi members remain committed to stopping iuu fishing and its ill gotten product from entering into us commerce. We should have a strong legal foundation to detect and punish bad actors where they are, rather than, in the case of semp, burdening business with a blizzard of paperwork and endless audits. The fish act is a whole of government approach. We view the fish act as a major step forward.
▶ 0:21:56We look forward to its consideration and enactment. Thank you again for your time today and I'm happy to answer any questions. >> thank you, Mr. conrad. I now recognize representative minh to introduce miss compton. >> thank you, chair hageman. Thank you, ranking member hoyle, for convening this very important hearing. And I'm honored to represent to welcome a constituent of mine, christine compton, who's done amazing work for the irvine ranch water district as its director of strategic communications and deputy general counsel.
▶ 0:22:25Now, some of you may be surprised to know that orange county, california, is actually the epicenter of some amazing work in water. It's seen as an undisputed national and global leader in groundwater sustainability. We have people coming from all over the world to see some of the innovations that, uh, groups like irvine ranch water district are doing.
▶ 0:22:47Uh, and so we've seen, uh, a lot of innovation, uh, encourage you to come down sometime and visit our water filtration system, which has become an amazing duck pond, uh, a rare bird sanctuary. Uh, I'm told that today we recycle in orange county. Over 99% of our water. We actually import sewage from other places to recycle.
▶ 0:23:05And I think the innovations that we're developing are not only helping us in california, in orange county, uh, to ensure that we have every californian has access to clean, reliable water. Uh, they're really creating innovations that I think are being exported around the world. And so, uh, of course, southern california is home to, uh, is often the site of severe and prolonged droughts. Uh, so these types of practices are really, really important.
▶ 0:23:33Uh, so really proud to represent irvine ranch water district, uh, the amazing success stories that they represent. And really, uh, honored to welcome miss compton, uh, to the committee today. Miss compton, thank you for flying out to washington, dc. A lot colder here than in irvine. And, uh, thank you for sharing your stories. >> thank you. I now recognize miss compton for five minutes. >> thank you so much. Chair, heckman and ranking member and members of the committee.
▶ 0:24:00As you've heard, I'm with the irvine ranch water district, and we're so pleased to be here in support of h.r. 338, the every drop counts act. Um, at irvine ranch water district. We are a retail water agency, so we serve the middle 20% of orange county, uh, safe drinking water day in and day out. And we are known, um, in the industry as being water resource managers that really show leadership in these areas.
▶ 0:24:28As you've heard, we've really focused on recycled water and done some amazing things in that area. But water resource management, water resiliency, and have really been focused because we're from california, on how we ensure that even during the deepest droughts that we're prepared to meet the water needs of our community. And so one of the things we recognized, we've really diversified our water supply portfolio and recognizing that.
▶ 0:24:51And so 85% of our water sources come from local supplies, over 50% of our total water supplies are actually from recycled water. And so we've really done a lot of work in that area. But despite that, we've recognized the need that we need to do more. We need to capture water when it's available for use in drier times. That way, we're balancing out when water comes to california.
▶ 0:25:13And so to that end, we've worked in partnership and have had a longstanding partnership with agencies that are different than us. We are in southern california, and we have a long standing partnership with the rosedale rio bravo water storage district, which is located in kern county. They serve agricultural customers. We serve irvine customers. And that partnership of banking groundwater has really proved to be successful.
▶ 0:25:37And what we found is we're able to develop triple wins, wins from serving customers, agricultural customers and the environment. And so, um, we're moving forward with another project called the kern groundwater storage project. It's one of a small handful of projects that the state has funded for storage.
▶ 0:25:56And so because we really see this benefit, the bureau of reclamation small storage program has been really useful to local water, um, uh, agencies that are looking to do this sort of work. And so, um, the program provides up to 25% cost share for select surface and groundwater storage projects that are sized between 200 and 30,000 acre feet, increasing water and moving water into that storage. Well, the program has really been successful.
▶ 0:26:26Uh, the bureau has had an interpretation of law in a way that really unlit, unrealistically limits groundwater storage. Unlike surface storage, groundwater storage is not about building a reservoir. You're using what's naturally there in the ground. And so a more appropriate measure is really how much water you can recharge. And so that every drop counts. Bill really seeks to recognize that and put it more on par with the surface water storage.
▶ 0:26:53And looking at how much water you can recharge and store and then recover. So we really do feel that every drop count will make it easier for the bureau to work with local agencies to develop these projects that are necessary. They'll also help stabilize the groundwater aquifers and in fact benefit all groundwater users, not those that are just storing the projects. Because when there's more water in the ground, it means those wells that are there can recover water as well.
▶ 0:27:21And so, um, I want to thank representative costa and representative valadao, representative gray and min and the other co-sponsors of this important bipartisan legislation to really see if we can do more to capture water when it's available for those drier times across the united states. Thank you so much for having me again. And I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may have. >> thank you. And I now recognize doctor sweetman for five minutes. >> thank you.
▶ 0:27:49Chair hageman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. And thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on h.r. 5699, the fisheries data modernization and accuracy act of 2025. My name is doctor c.j. Sweetman, and I'm the federal fisheries section leader for the florida fish and wildlife conservation commission. As someone that's directly involved in fisheries management in both the gulf and the south atlantic, the challenges of and its impacts on fisheries management are well known.
▶ 0:28:18Fisheries management is truly only as effective as the accuracy of the data that is being used to drive these fisheries management decisions. And in florida, where fishing is a major component of our lives, having the correct data is essential. Fwc is pleased to support h.r. 569 and thanks congressman rutherford for his efforts to improve noaa, created in 2008.
▶ 0:28:39And the data comes from dockside reporting on the number, type, and size of fish that are harvested, as well as a male survey called the fishing effort survey. In 2017, fwc leadership testified in this very room about the need to reform, and unfortunately, all the statements that were made then about deficiencies are still very relevant today.
▶ 0:29:01Amrep does not consider regional differences and therefore its one size fits all approach for the entire country routinely creates inaccuracy issues and was not designed for or equipped for tracking recreational catch to the nearest pound or for in-season fisheries management.
▶ 0:29:18At times when noaa makes projections using amrep, they are inaccurate and unrealistic, for example with things called rare event species, which are species that are infrequently sampled by amrep, such as some of our more popular recreational fisheries like snapper and grouper species. Noaa's own policy states that data with really high levels of error, which is common for these rare event species, are not recommended for use in management.
▶ 0:29:43But despite all of this, noaa has forced the councils to use this unreliable data to manage nearly all of their fisheries. Amrep is so very far behind what is needed for recreational fisheries management that fisheries managers cannot continue to do the same thing with minor improvements and expect better results. Recreational anglers cannot continue to be told that the federal data is improving and only see marginal improvements. We do need reform on amrep and we need it quickly. Here are a few examples for where amrep missed the mark.
▶ 0:30:13First, greater amberjack in mississippi in 2022, a single greater amberjack was caught, and that was extrapolated to estimate that 300,000 pounds of fish were harvested off the coast of mississippi. Second amrep fishing effort survey. This routinely produces unrealistic projections that are then used by noaa in order to guide management decisions. In 2023, noaa admitted that its own survey may be overestimating recreational fishing effort by 30 to 40%.
▶ 0:30:42While it is positive that amrep is, or that noaa is finally addressing these long standing concerns about amrep, many in the fisheries management field do expect this fix to really be a band-aid on a large, open wound. Third south atlantic red snapper. This stock is no longer overfished, no longer undergoing overfishing, and biomass and abundance are at record levels, which is consistent with what anglers tell us.
▶ 0:31:06However, under the previous administration, noaa has advocated for closures based on highly uncertain and discard data. Despite past noaa leadership and current scientific advisors stating that amrep discard data should not be used for management purposes due to the high levels of uncertainty. Comparatively, florida's own state data collection program indicates that red snapper catch, effort and discards are 2 to 3 times less than what noaa estimates, and florida state fish survey is more accurate.
▶ 0:31:36These mismanagement examples can lead to unnecessary closures, short fishing seasons, and can have significant economic impacts. Because of this, each state in the gulf developed their own data collection program where the data is more accurate, timelier, and ultimately more useful for sustainable fisheries management. Now, red snapper is successfully managed by each gulf state. These data collection systems were the foundation for what we believe may be one of the greatest success stories in fisheries management in the country.
▶ 0:32:06And now, just last week, all of the south atlantic states submitted exempted fishing permit applications to begin the transfer of recreational management of atlantic red snapper from the federal government to the states. It is well past time to improve, and h.r.
▶ 0:32:21Five 699 will make the necessary improvements, such as having the national academy of sciences act as a de facto auditor and reviewer, also requiring noaa to reduce levels of error and or use data collected from state led programs, as well as providing funds to the states to improve their own data collection systems. These are just some of the reasons why fwc supports h.r. 5699. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. >> thank you, doctor sweetman.
▶ 0:32:48I want to thank all of the witnesses for your testimony, and I will now recognize members for five minutes each for questioning. I'm going to begin with myself. Mr. conrad, I would like to begin with you. Many of our members have been interested in acting to counter illegal, unreported and unregulated or iuu fishing activities. We know that this is not a problem that the united states can solve alone, but must solve with our international partners.
▶ 0:33:14We also know that solving iuu requires real, concrete action to hold bad actors accountable. Could you talk about the importance of the fish act's enforcement provisions in combating iuu fishing? >> chairman. Thank you. And that's a that's a great question.
▶ 0:33:33Um, the fish act actually provides enforcement mechanisms, which we don't have, uh, today we have the ability to, uh, the blacklist that's mentioned where not only would the foreign vessels, but in some cases the vessel owners as well, uh, would go on that, uh, we would have us port entry bans, uh, which would keep these out of the supply chain import bans on seafood linked to these listed vessels.
▶ 0:33:58Uh, these are important because we don't have, uh, that that creation from. There's been no enforcement through the department of justice. So, uh, the, the fish act enforcement mechanisms are definitely, uh, more strenuous. >> well, I appreciate that. I've had the opportunity to go on a couple of codels where we have addressed iuu fishing, both in the south pacific as well as in the far east, and some of the work that our international partners are doing, such as south korea.
▶ 0:34:27I know that they are working hard to address this because it is a very important and significant issue, not only for the united states, but for people around the world. Um, Mr. batten, I'd like to turn you to you now, in your testimony, you talk about the threat aquatic invasive species pose to water supplies across the mississippi river basin and the challenges of interjurisdictional fish species.
▶ 0:34:53How important are these interstate partnerships to address these types of issues? >> yeah. So again, I think the scale of the basin and the complexity of the issues, uh, make it absolutely critical to have this level of collaboration and coordination that we just have not had. Again, it's been proven, uh, as a model to work with, with these other commissions. And, um, I think that this solution here will help lead us to where we need to be. >> wonderful.
▶ 0:35:22Um, and now, doctor sweatman, after years of ineffective management driven by the failures of the mrip model, the five states along the gulf of america work to develop a more effective and accurate fisheries management program. Central to this effort was the first trump administration's approval of state management of red snapper, a key species for the recreational sector.
▶ 0:35:45And I can tell you that we've had several opportunities to have people come and testify before this committee about the red snapper and the challenges imposed by the previous administration with their effort to restrict, uh, our ability to access this resource for, for recreation and other purposes. Can you explain what efforts or what lessons we have learned from these efforts by the states to develop their own programs? What have we learned from that?
▶ 0:36:16>> yeah. Thank you for that question, chair. Um, we have learned a lot based on that experience, and it's now currently being applied to the south atlantic. Based on that experience, perhaps the biggest thing that we've learned is that the states know their fisheries and their fishermen better than some sort of standardized survey. That's a one size fits all across the entire country. Because of that. I mean, I can speak for florida as well as many of the other gulf states.
▶ 0:36:40Our recreational data collection programs have significant, significantly less levels of error associated with it than some of the data collection programs. Unfortunately, uh, for the most part, except for red snapper, that is really the only fishery where the state data collection programs are being utilized right now. >> so one of the things that I have worked on for literally decades as a private attorney and now in my role in congress, is to try to return more power to the states.
▶ 0:37:07I personally believe that the closer that someone is to the issue and the problem, the more effective they're going to be at addressing it and understanding it, the more accountable that they will be. And it sounds like this is an example of that exact situation. Um, how does the ongoing work from the south atlantic states build on the experiences in the gulf? What have they been able to do? >> yeah. So we're thank you for that question again.
▶ 0:37:33We are we are taking everything that we've learned from the gulf over there and applying it to the south atlantic. Um, simply, we are extrapolating our survey to apply to the south atlantic, and we are looking at trying to test different levels of fishing effort, fishing catch, as well as discards there. And what we've learned in the gulf is that it wasn't as extreme as what we what the noaa was telling us it was. We got to three days in the gulf, and now we have 127 days this year for the state of florida.
▶ 0:38:02Um, we are hoping to start that off in the south atlantic. And florida has proposed a 39 day season through the exempted fishing permit process. >> well, wonderful. It's good to hear that. And it's it's it's nice to hear that people are working to find solutions to these issues so that we can improve the opportunities for everyone. I do have to go and engage in another committee, subcommittee on the constitution. We're having another hearing.
▶ 0:38:28So I'm going to turn my seat over to, uh, my, my, my co-chair here. Um, Mr. ezell, I appreciate you all being here, and I'm hoping that I will be back before we have finished the hearing today.
▶ 0:38:59>> Mr. huffman, you're the next contestant here. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to start with h.r. 5699, uh, which, of course, focuses on recreational fishery data. On the west coast. Uh, data is collected through the rec program, which covers marine recreational fisheries in alaska, washington, oregon and california. Rick fenn has worked well for many years.
▶ 0:39:23It has the buy in of west coast federal and state fisheries managers, as well as stakeholder groups. And so, uh, Mr. sweetman, uh, I'd like to start with you. Is it the intent of h.r. 5699 to reform and enhance mrip, to supersede the data collection, management, operation, and protocols of programs outside of the gulf and south atlantic?
▶ 0:39:51>> thank you for that question, congressman. I do not think that is the intent of this bill. I think the intent of this bill is to allow for states that do basically, it's to improve the error that's associated with current recreational data programs. And for states that do have that, it offers the opportunity to kind of mitigate some of those issues based on those programs. >> thank you.
▶ 0:40:11The reason I ask is that, as written, the bill rewrites noaa's recreational data standards and would force managers to disregard data even in regions where programs already work. Uh, if the bill does not intend to disrupt programs like rick fenn. And I'm glad to hear you, I think suggest that that is not the intent. Um, I wonder if you would support adding language to the legislation making that clarification. Or, you know, I should talk to the author of the bill, of course, about that.
▶ 0:40:40But, um, would you agree that that would be a good idea to make that explicitly clear in this bill? >> yeah. Thank you for that question, congressman. I don't think that there's any intent, at least from florida's side, to kick out amrep altogether. At the end of the day, it's about getting the best data that we have in order to make informed fisheries management decisions. So from that perspective, yes, sir. >> and no intent to disrupt rec fin specifically on the west coast. Thank you.
▶ 0:41:05Um, this bill would eliminate standardized data calibration methods between states and reduce the actually reduce the available data for management decisions. Um, as written. I wonder, Mr. sweetman, if you can, if you can name any scientific field, we're using less data and actually ruling out calibration, uh, is a good idea if you want to get to accuracy.
▶ 0:41:29Doesn't this seem out of step with just the way data works in informing decisions? >> yeah, thank you for that question. And I can speak really from the gulf states perspective, where all of their programs have been certified. Florida's is calibrated to amrep. So for florida, that issue is okay because it's not trying to use less data, it is actually trying to use just better data that we have there.
▶ 0:41:59And when it's calibrated to amrep, that kind of gives an apples to apples comparison for what that can be. >> what about outside of florida? >> uh, the gulf states are set up to to do that as well. The south atlantic states are making progress in that direction right now with their exempted fishing permits that they've got for red snapper. Um, and then that is really my area of expertise. >> but this bill would eliminate that calibration effort as I understand it.
▶ 0:42:28>> I do not think this bill is trying to get rid of amrep altogether or get rid of the calibration process there. I think that's an important part for understanding kind of what you get from amrep and how that translates to what a state data collection program might have. And it's really about that 30% percent standard error where, you know, an individual state can do that. It doesn't say that you don't have to use amrep altogether.
▶ 0:42:55It's just if you have data to support that, there's better information there for fisheries management, it offers the opportunity to do that. >> it would supersede. But I think some more conversations are probably in order about how that would actually play out, because my understanding is this is absolutely superseding, uh, sidelining, uh, amrep data and ending the calibration process. I'm hearing you say that that is not the intent, but, uh, we have a bill that I believe would do all of those things.
▶ 0:43:23And so clearly, uh, there's some more work that is needed. Um, Mr. chairman, this bill as written, um, I think is very problematic. I think it is part of a long line of attempts to turn over more management of federal fisheries to state recreational interests without guardrails that are very important. And I appreciate some of Mr. sweetman. Sweetman statements about, um, seeming to acknowledge the importance of guardrails. Um, this bill doesn't have them. Uh, and so we've got more work to do.
▶ 0:43:52If this is a bill that would be expected to move forward with broad bipartisan support. And with that I yield back. >> gentleman yields. I now recognize myself for five minutes. Thank you again for being here today. And, Mr. batten, what is the greatest factor holding management of fisheries back right now? >> yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
▶ 0:44:15Uh, I would just say, you know, competition for limited resource, lack of stable funding and then the organization, uh, at a higher level, a very simple example of this would be the aquatic nuisance species grants. So each state with an approved ans plan is eligible for just under $100,000 per year in funding. Uh, this amount is just enough to hire a coordinator, uh, should states choose to use it that way? Uh, but does not provide funding to actually go on the ground and do the work that needs to be done?
▶ 0:44:44Uh, the funding to the states, in the case of the commission would be significantly larger than this, and would allow states to invest in equipment and hire full time interjurisdictional fisheries managers and biologists to do the actual work required to manage fisheries properly, including sampling fish populations, habitat work and research to inform management decisions. >> thank you, Mr. batten. How does the commission structure improve coordination among those that are currently managed? The mississippi river basin fisheries independently?
▶ 0:45:16>> uh, yes, sir. So we we are attempting to do this informally now, however, uh, the uh, structure that would be brought about and the formality and the recognition by congress, uh, would bring with it the resource, additional clout, uh, etc. That I think would allow, uh, the basin to operate at a much higher level. Um, as we collaborate to, you know, manage these very complex fisheries. >> thank you.
▶ 0:45:46And, uh, what specific gaps in the coordination or authority exist today that this commission is intended to formalize or fix? >> yeah. So, uh, the amount of resource, um, that that's going to each state in order to do this resource, you know, we're competing with declining resources for the management of native fish species every day. I see it at my agency. And so, again, some of the resource to do this.
▶ 0:46:16And then also the amount of resource, um, that is going to overall collaboration of the mississippi river basin that's coming through our, our federal partners, like the geological survey, us fish and wildlife survey, etc. Just pales in comparison to, uh, you know, what's being done with these other commissions and being able to see the way that they're able to operate, uh, gives us hope that should this commission pass, we will be able to do some of the similar kind of, uh, achievements. >> thank you.
▶ 0:46:45And I just want to make a statement. Over the last, most of my life, I have fished out in the gulf of america. Uh, and one thing that I will say, over the last 3 or 4 years, I have never seen as many sharks out there as I have. Uh, I cannot tell you how many times that, uh, we've been pulling up a big red snapper and end up with a very small piece of that fish.
▶ 0:47:07So, uh, we need to take some sort of action about the shark population, and, uh, I'll just leave that with you all, and I thank you very much. And I yield back. Uh, we now recognize Mr. crank for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:47:23Um, my constituents want to know, of course, that their seafood that they're eating is responsibly sourced and illegal under unreported and unregulated fishing is a serious global issue that directly affects everyone in our country.
▶ 0:47:40And regardless of whether you live on the coast or you're landlocked, like my constituents in colorado, it's concerning that 11% of the seafood comes from countries that don't abide by sound fish management policies like we do here in the united states, and I fully support efforts by the committee and the trump administration to more effectively combat iuu fishing. Mr.
▶ 0:48:05Conrad, how does the fish act change the us's approach to iuu fishing to ensure my constituents can enjoy sustainable seafood? >> congressman. Thank you. It's a good question.
▶ 0:48:18It's, uh, any time you have, uh, issues within the supply chain, uh, such as bad actors and, and doing these type of illegal activities, it creates, uh, a challenge with the consumer, uh, about their confidence in what they're getting. Consumers want to know that their product is sourced correctly. Uh, consumers want to know that they're, uh, they're they're, uh, buying from reputable sources.
▶ 0:48:46And so the, the fish act actually gives teeth to the government to go after and find these bad actors and make sure that product doesn't come into the supply chain. >> um, do you do you think that a more proactive approach will benefit stock assessment for commercial fishing? >> I think any opportunity we have to prevent bad actors in any regulated sector can only strengthen and benefit that sector. >> okay?
▶ 0:49:12Iuu fishing not only depletes fish stocks, uh, weakens local fishing economies, and it's very often linked to organized crime, to force labor to human trafficking, to smuggling. Um, but it also poses a significant national security threat. China, unsurprisingly, ranks number one as the worst offender for iuu fishing.
▶ 0:49:34China sees the economic value of the seafood industry and more concerning, it's, uh, fits into their strategy of being the top maritime power. Experts estimate that china commands over 17,000 vessels in its distant water fleet. China's secured fishing agreements with over 42 countries, granting access not just to seafood resources but to ports, logistical hubs and surveillance opportunities.
▶ 0:50:02Uh, Mr. conrad, the fish act directs the us to be more proactive in pursuing iuu agreements with other countries. Do you believe that this could be a tool to stop not only china's iuu activities, but also slow their ambition for more maritime control?
▶ 0:50:22>> congressman, not speaking about china specifically, but about the issue of iuu and any nations that may engage in that the the blacklist that would apply, uh, under the fish act can only strengthen our ability to go after those bad actors. >> yeah, well thank you. This is a this is an important issue, obviously. Um, when you're a landlocked state like colorado, um, doesn't seem like it's maybe as important, but it really is a certainly a food safety issue, um, as well.
▶ 0:50:51And, um, you know, I know that this is a big issue for coastal communities as well. So thank you for your time today. And Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields chair recognizes Mr. gray for five minutes. >> thank you. Uh, Mr. chairman, thank you. Our witnesses for being here today, improving and expanding water storage in california and throughout the west.
▶ 0:51:20Uh, couldn't be more critical. California struggled to grow its water supply, failing to invest in necessary infrastructure to store water for years, in a time where we've more than doubled our population, I think we've increased our capacity to store water less than 1%.
▶ 0:51:34At the same time, the state in the last decade has implemented the sustainable groundwater management act, or sigma, requiring local communities to develop plans to manage groundwater actions, uh, that don't have balance like this leave our farmers even more vulnerable to water shortages, especially during dry years.
▶ 0:52:01While I strongly agree that we need to preserve and protect our environment, we must also make investments in water supply to create a sustainable future for agriculture. For these reasons, uh, I'm certainly proud to support the bipartisan every drop counts act, led by my colleagues from the san joaquin valley, reps. Costa and valadao in the valley, water reliability is absolutely critical to our people and our economy.
▶ 0:52:30It drives the agricultural production that funds our state and feeds our country. Miss compton, uh, I appreciate your comments about the importance of water reliability. When I served in the state legislature, uh, I actually secured tens of millions of dollars for floodplain restoration in the san joaquin valley.
▶ 0:52:50This funding, uh, in tandem with the work of organizations like river partners, had significant impacts both for environmental protection but as importantly, groundwater recharge in our region. Could you expand a little further on why groundwater recharge projects, uh, which could be expanded if we enact this bill, would be helpful to regions like the san joaquin valley. >> I'd be more than happy to do so.
▶ 0:53:19When it comes to water supplies and groundwater recharge. Um, there are the project proponents that move forward with, you know, the groundwater recharge project, but it actually ends up benefiting everybody in the groundwater aquifer, because when you put water more water in, you're raising the groundwater levels. And so even those that aren't storing that water and doing the recharge actually benefit from the project, not only because of the leave behind, but because they're, well, reaches the groundwater level and they don't have to drill it farther.
▶ 0:53:50And so it actually ends up being a win for everybody across the board, both the project sponsors. Um, and if it's done right, like the projects that I talked about in my statement and that we're doing currently in the central valley, you can have an urban ag environmental win, which is so rare in water, but we need to stop fighting against each other and find those projects that that provide that triple win. And groundwater recharge certainly does, um, do that for agricultural in the central valley.
▶ 0:54:20>> I appreciate, uh, that response. I'd certainly like to see the federal government do more, uh, in investing in projects, uh, like the state of california's invested in with those, because you hit the nail on the head, and it's one of the few water projects in our region in california that has support across the board. You know, there's a great, uh, actually, new state park, uh, in my district, uh, dos rios, that was the result of an investment in projects with river partners, just like that.
▶ 0:54:52And the ranching community actually sits on what was an old one of california's oldest cattle ranches. Um, but the support from agriculture, environmentalists, and then, of course, the community at large, not having a new, uh, wonderful state park on top of it. Uh, we ought to be doing dozens of projects like that up and down the san joaquin valley to achieve some balance where we're not just taking water, uh, depleting water supply for farmers, but rather making the necessary investments. So thank you for your testimony. And with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:55:22>> gentleman yields. Chair recognizes Mr. webster for five minutes. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, doctor friedman, three days before leaving office, president biden, uh, proposed the closure of red snapper off the state of florida. This closure would have been based on, I think, bad science.
▶ 0:55:47So president trump killed that proposal when he became president. And, um, it's supportive of expanding, and he is supportive of expanding fishing opportunities for red snapper in the south atlantic, based on solid science.
▶ 0:56:05So despite president trump's desire to expand opportunities due to noaa, fisheries bureaucrats still push for closures of the south atlantic and south atlantic meetings. >> thank you, congressman, for that question. And first, thank you for everything that you do for the state of florida. Um, yes. In short, yes. There has been recent pushes.
▶ 0:56:32Uh, south atlantic council is working on something known as a management strategy evaluation. And despite the widespread nonsupport for a closure during secretarial amendment 59, those conversations are still being brought up by noaa fisheries. >> so in 2025, how long is the red snapper season in the gulf, and who manages the gulf. >> this year?
▶ 0:56:59For the state of florida, it is going to be 127 days, and it is the state of florida, florida fish and wildlife that that sets that season. >> and then the south atlantic. How long is the season there and who manages it? >> they had two days this year. And that that fishery is managed by noaa fisheries. >> so when florida begins to manage the red snapper in 2026, how long will the fishing season be?
▶ 0:57:29>> yeah. Thank you congressman. So florida submitted along with the other south atlantic states exempted fishing permit applications that still has to go through the formalized approval process. It's going to go to the south atlantic council at their december meeting, and then it needs to be approved by noaa fisheries. And if it is approved, as is for noaa fisheries in the state of florida, the fishing season would be 39 days. >> thank you very much. You're back. >> gentleman yields.
▶ 0:57:55Miss hoyer five minutes. >> thank you. Um, Mr. conrad, uh, so I, I represent, um, two thirds of the oregon coast, um, one of the richest ocean ecosystems in the world. We, um, you know, we feed the world. And I know as a seafood importer, you know, you understand how important it is to have, um, to have rules.
▶ 0:58:22To have laws, uh, because you follow the law, you follow the rules, you ensure that american consumers are protected and that the workers who are doing the jobs are protected as well. Um, so I believe that if we enforce current laws to make sure that you're not having to compete with people that are operating poorly, that's important. But sometimes you have to add new laws.
▶ 0:58:52And this is one of those times, um, what I have seen with, um, ships that are, are, uh, they're registered in other countries. They spend most of their time on international waters, and there are horrific workers abuses, horrific human rights abuses, trafficking. And then again, they're also not following other laws.
▶ 0:59:16Can you speak to some of the issues that you have seen with these bad actors, and what this would do to protect our consumers and, and people like you who operate in good faith? >> sure. >> thank you for that. That question, congresswoman. Um, and we do take pride in what we do as a company.
▶ 0:59:37Um, and we, uh, take multiple steps to make sure, uh, that, that those type of items are not in our supply chain and don't come here to the united states, uh, on our behalf again, uh, I'll go back to the fish act, giving us the opportunity to register those vessels to create a blacklist, uh, where we know who they are. We know who the owners are. We ban them from our ports, we stop the product before it gets in the supply chain.
▶ 1:00:07That is so important for us to do that. And that is the differential, uh, between what we have now and what the fish act does. >> that's great. I know in the construction industry we are able to debar, um, contractors that break the law so that you good actors aren't having to compete with people that are, um, doing bad, bad things in the system.
▶ 1:00:29So, um, I also want to talk about would like you to address why is it essential to your business that illegally caught seafood stays out of the supply chain? And what are the ramifications if we don't pass stricter laws and enforce them? >> thank you congresswoman. Again, it goes back to the consumer confidence.
▶ 1:00:51Uh, consumers want to know that they're eating a product that is harvested, uh, in an ethical and sustainable way that is safe, uh, good and wholesome for them. And that throughout the supply chain, uh, people are adhering to those, those good standards. And so that is extremely important to us from, uh, consumer confidence saying and doing the right thing, being the right business, having the right business practices. >> that's thank you so much. And with that, I'll yield back. >> gentlelady yields. Mr.
▶ 1:01:22Wahlberg, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chair. And thanks to the panel for being here. Um. >> Mr. batten, uh, thank you for being here to answer some questions that I have relative to the great lakes. I read through your written testimony, and I want to thank you for highlighting the importance of keeping invasive carp out of the great lakes. We haven't seen that with all administrations until this administration.
▶ 1:01:50Um, as you know, these invasive carp pose a significant threat to our great lakes. The enjoyment, uh, the the economic impact, recreational impact, all of the rest. As the native species, uh, they hold in the great lakes, the economies they support and the recreational opportunity they provide.
▶ 1:02:11Bottom line, it's absolutely critical that we do everything in our power to ensure these carp do not reach the great lakes. Um, can you provide more detail about how the establishment of the mississippi river basin fishery commission, uh, would help in our efforts to ensure these invasive carp stay out of the great lakes? >> yeah. Thank you for your question, congressman.
▶ 1:02:36So the chicago area waterway system that connects the mississippi river with the great lakes basin, um, there's the electric dispersal barrier that was, uh, done with funding, uh, and also invasive carp management that comes through that funding they're helping to control in the illinois river, um, has successfully so far prevented, uh, invasion of that beyond the dresden island pool of the illinois river.
▶ 1:03:02So and then the addition of the brandon road lock and dam project will provide further protection from the great lakes, uh, from from invasive carp. Now, while the technology is included with that project, uh, add additional safeguards, the continued management and control of invasive carp within the illinois river and more broadly within the basin itself, uh, is critical to protect the success of these investments.
▶ 1:03:25The establishment of this commission will enhance coordination and communication throughout the mississippi river basin, and also between the mississippi river basin and the great lakes, and hopefully provide a holistic, unified approach to controlling and preventing spread of invasive carp. >> okay, having having lake michigan and lake erie in my district, uh, it's important to me in many ways to see this, this happen.
▶ 1:03:49You also mentioned the commission was modeled after the great lakes fishery commission, uh, which was formed in the 50s when my, my dad and brother and I went up to washington island, wisconsin in green bay. And that lamprey issue was a concern there as we as we fished for perch, etc.
▶ 1:04:07Um, uh, the great lakes fishery commission has done exemplary work to curb sea lamprey population in the great lakes, uh, helping to revive the fishery on the brink of collapse. How will the mississippi river basin fishery commission help support the work already being done in the great lakes by entities like the great lakes fishery commission to curb aquatic invasive species? >> yeah.
▶ 1:04:36Thank you again for your question, sir. The great lakes fishery commission has model is clearly demonstrated the effectiveness of bringing together states, federal agencies and other stakeholders under a common purpose, not only by coordinated control of sea lamprey and their devastating impacts on the great lakes, but also other aquatic invasive species. So transferring that successful model to the broader mississippi river basin will result in a similar success.
▶ 1:05:00Uh, through enhanced coordination, communication and management, and elevating the mississippi river basin fisheries management through the formation of this commission would also help ensure, uh, addressing challenges not only to the river basin, but the country as a whole. Um, we've learned through really hard lessons that always prevention is much more valuable in the cheapest, most effective way to deal with aquatic invasive species.
▶ 1:05:26Um, and both commissions, working together hand in hand, will result in a powerful voice and expanding those efforts. >> thank you. Uh, you also mentioned the importance of combating invasive mussels. As you likely know, this is a massive problem in the great lakes. Uh, as quagga and zebra mussels have pushed lake whitefish, uh, to the brink of collapse. Uh, how can the mississippi river basin fishery commission help combat invasive muscles that are destroying our native fish populations?
▶ 1:05:57>> yes. Thank you for your question, sir. Um, invasive carp are having a lot of the same effects as filter feeders that that these muscles are having. As you've mentioned, um, you know, quagga and zebra mussels actually spread from the great lakes into the mississippi river basin. So we're very familiar with the effects of, of these, um, species. Um, and as mentioned earlier, again, prevention is definitely the most effective tool. We do not know what the next aquatic invasive species problem could be. Uh, we just know that one is coming.
▶ 1:06:25Um, and we're hopeful that the commission will bring more resources, expertise and coordination, uh, to this important work and benefit both basins. Um, the mississippi river basin fishery commission will also serve as a facilitator, um, and convener to align the states and unify state and federal regulations to prevent, import and spread the harm of future, future potential invaders.
▶ 1:06:49So, again, improved coordination and communication through this commission, uh, will help facilitate more effective management and control and help prevent spread of new invasive species. >> I wish you all good success. Thank you sir. Mr. chair, I yield back. >> gentleman yields. Mr. dingle, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. Um, Mr. chairman and my good friend from michigan. And I share the same concerns. And that was my first question.
▶ 1:07:16So I'm going to build on all the points that, uh, he raised. I am a co-chair of the great lakes task force. But Mr. walberg and I work very closely on protecting the great lakes. We just introduced a bill this week on the zebra mussels, um, and the great lakes basin are not only a natural resource, but their way of life that supports communities and jobs throughout the region. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:07:42Walberg talked about a number of the invasive species we're worried about, but asian carp has the potential to devastate the waters we all love in yours and ours. They out eat, they outgrow, and they outcompete native fish. If left unchecked, the asian carp boom will impact our region's $5 billion fishing and $11 billion boating industries.
▶ 1:08:06So we have to work together with you to stop the spread of the invasive species of the future. And we can't I know, we don't know what's the future, but like our current president isn't doing as well as it needs to be. So, um, we we can't afford to wait and combat the threat. And the fact of the matter is, currently the asian carp we don't like welcoming to our great lakes are coming through the mississippi river towards lake michigan.
▶ 1:08:35So with this, I would like to start with the bipartisan draft legislation that you have. And Mr. benton, how, uh, what I think we'd both like to know is how the scope of this commission would how do we unite our current control efforts? Let's not just talk, but how can we unite them?
▶ 1:08:53And how would uniting the mississippi river basin efforts with the great lakes bring greater focus and funding to controlling them, especially the asian carp, and not suddenly have us competing for the dollars that aren't enough to begin with to cover it. >> yeah, I think that's a great question. Again, um, I mentioned in my first, uh, to Mr.
▶ 1:09:20Wahlberg's first question, uh, that obviously there's significant investment being made in infrastructure at the point where the two basins come together and, uh, you know, right now, the mississippi river basin is a little over 70 years behind the ball on the commission system that you all are fortunate to have in the great lakes. And so right now, the association that I have would be the only vehicle to talking to the great lakes fishery commission. And again, I think that's one of the great benefits here of elevating this commission.
▶ 1:09:49It puts us on a playing field to work together. Uh, I would like to mention that as we worked on this draft legislation, uh, we visited with the executive director of, of the fishery great lakes fishery commission. They were incredibly generous with their time and helped, uh, point us in some directions. Obviously over 70 years. They have a lot of lessons learned. Um, and so we already have the starting of a relationship there. And I would just look to see, uh, you know, how that develops. And I think we're in this together again. There's species coming from both directions.
▶ 1:10:17And so we're we're definitely in the fight together to keep what we have, where we have and not introduce anything new. >> and I hope we are always bipartisan. And I hope that your members will be bipartisan. Then we'll have a bipartisan group of people working together. Uh, I was going to do some other questions, but it'll take too long with only a minute 30. So I think tim and I are showing that we want to work with you, and I'll ask the rest of my questions.
▶ 1:10:46For the record. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> I'll give you another 25 seconds. >> that's alright. I was going to move to the fisheries data modernization and accuracy act, but yeah. >> gentlelady yields. Chair recognizes Mr. mcdowell for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And I apologize to the witnesses for my voice. I have a one year old and two and a half year old petri dishes at home that have waged war on my vocal cords, so bear with me.
▶ 1:11:14Uh, but I'm grateful you all are here today, because this is an important topic that I want to talk about. But as an avid outdoorsman, it brings me a lot of joy to see the legislation that we have, uh, before our committee today that actually promotes good stewardship of our fisheries, because for far too long, uh, unelected bureaucrats have imposed rules on an industry that they have never worked in, uh, that they don't know much
▶ 1:11:45About. Uh, but that has incredibly harmed hardworking americans. I joked yesterday with someone in my office that the the flounder in north carolina, if you catch one and keep it, you'll get the death penalty. If you keep if you catch it outside of the 75 second season that we have. And that's just doesn't work because it assumes that in south carolina, you have a completely different basis for everything that's going on.
▶ 1:12:12And and it, you know, assumes that those who can't swim across the border into south carolina. So, uh, you know, I want to highlight the fact that noaa has relied on flawed fishing data that everyone acknowledges is is unreliable. And those errors, they don't just show up on spreadsheets.
▶ 1:12:30I mean, they shut down seasons, uh, they restrict access for our coastal communities, for folks from my district that travel to, to go fishing and, uh, the beautiful coast of north carolina, and they punish the very people that, uh, that depend on healthy, well-managed fisheries. And so we need to do something to modernize the data collection that we use.
▶ 1:12:53But, um, I want to, uh, use my time, uh, to ask some questions to you, Mr. conrad. It's always good to see someone from north carolina, particularly someone that I've enjoyed. Some seafood. I feel like you probably pulled out of the ocean, so it's good to see you. Um, but can you speak to the the economic losses that fishermen in the united states face when they follow the strict federal policy?
▶ 1:13:21Uh, but then they must compete against illegally caught foreign products that are entering our markets. >> congressman, thank you for that question. Good to see you as well. Um, and that's a tough one to answer because, of course, illegal and unregulated, um, is somewhat hard to track. Uh, I'll go back to what we feel like is the benefit of this program.
▶ 1:13:47And that benefit is that we need the ability to enforce, uh, through, uh, multilateral and bilateral agreements with our trading partners through the vessel registry, uh, finding out where the bad actors are and rooting them out. Now, I will I can tell you, uh, that on an economic level, uh, I have talked a couple times about eliminating the program that you mentioned earlier.
▶ 1:14:10Uh, and I mentioned it at the beginning that congress in this subcommittee never authorized nmfs to create this sprawling regulation. And that does create challenges on our member companies and other companies for essentially, uh, data mining, uh, is what it is with zero referrals to the department of justice for any iuu fishing, uh, at all since its inception. And that is the number one goal of the program.
▶ 1:14:38But they have not had a single referral to the doj for, for, uh, uh, not doing a great job there. >> so so you would say that, uh, current federal regulations place a disproportionate burden on american vessels compared to the scrutiny that, uh, is faced by the foreign fleets. >> I would say the current, uh, on this is species specific on the, uh, cemp program.
▶ 1:15:07So, uh, not necessarily on the american vessels themselves, but in some cases. >> yes, sure. From an industry standpoint, would stronger coordination with states, would that help improve the enforcement and the data quality for combating iuu fishing? >> I think when we look at iuu fishing, we're talking about national and international uh, situations.
▶ 1:15:32So going to other countries, strengthening our trade relationships with those countries, getting a vessel registry. So we make sure those vessels never come to us ports. That's what's going to help the american fishermen. That's what's going to put the american fishermen on a level playing field. >> gotcha. Well, Mr. chairman, I will yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you all. Yes, sir. >> gentleman yields chair recognizes Mr. bense for five minutes. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chair. Mr. conrad, I enjoyed our conversation yesterday and happy to see you here.
▶ 1:16:01Thanks for traveling from north carolina. And I'm going to follow up on some of the questions. Just ask, um, and I'm looking at your testimony, uh, page three, where you say in nearly eight years of operation, uh, that is the seafood import monitoring program has failed miserably. Uh, I actually don't say miserably, but it's failed. Um, and you were just saying why it had failed. And that is because the lack of referral. Or is there some other reason it's just not working? >> thank you. Congressman.
▶ 1:16:30Uh, enjoyed our conversation yesterday as well. But, uh, yes, again, cep is, uh, essentially the fish act is targeting iuu fishing where it is happening, not as it's coming into the united states. And that's the problem with the data collection itself, is that the fish has already been harvested.
▶ 1:16:54And so we're trying to stop it at harvest before harvest by getting a list of these vessels, knowing who the bad actors are, so that we can make sure that that does not come to the supply chain. >> and so where where do you get this list of bad actors? How do you how do you know who it is?
▶ 1:17:12>> there's, uh, certain, uh fmds that we will work with, uh, in various parts of the world that are already there, established relationships, uh, that we can work with them through, again, multinational agreements, uh, and find out who they are. They will go on a registry, uh, and again, the vessel, uh, import ban on the seafood that's linked to those vessels as well.
▶ 1:17:40>> and you call this risk based, uh, risk based approach, is that is that the proper designation of what's. That's correct, what you're talking about? And then how does the fish act factor into this, if at all? >> fish act creates the registry. Well, there's not a registry currently. Uh, and so that's how we know. And it also ties again, the owners to the vessels. Uh, and uh, excuse me, also the, uh, vessels and in some cases, cargo seizure, uh, with those fmds as necessary.
▶ 1:18:09>> and you're, you're not suggesting that there not be regulation. You're suggesting we need to regulate better because this is an important matter. So you're saying the fish act is better than than symp. >> that is correct. >> and to that end, we have that other act available. How does it work? Uh, I think you probably already just told us, but elaborate just a bit, if you will, on how the fish fish act would work. >> sure. Uh, again, the the fish acts going to provide multiple enforcement mechanisms that we don't currently have.
▶ 1:18:40Uh, blacklist would not only apply to foreign vessels, but also the vessel owners, beneficial owners, individual vessels or fleets of vessels. In some cases, uh, that would trigger a us port entry ban. So we know that that seafood cannot get into our supply chain here in the united states and in some cases, again, uh, vessel and cargo seizure if necessary. >> thank you. And, um, that concludes my questions. But, Mr.
▶ 1:19:06Chair, I would like to offer, for the record, a letter to chair westerman from pacific seafood regarding the fish act dated november 17th, 2025. >> without objection. >> thank you. I yield back. >> gentleman yields. Mr. magaziner, you recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, sir, and, um, thank you to our witnesses and to my colleagues. Uh, I'm here today, uh, to advocate for and to urge passage of the fish act.
▶ 1:19:35Um, I am the democratic lead on this bill, along with, uh, the lead sponsor, congressman crenshaw. And congressman begich as well, I know has been leading on this. Uh, and I also want to thank our colleagues in the senate. This is a bipartisan, bicameral bill, uh, on the senate side, led by, I believe, senator sullivan and senator whitehouse from my home state of rhode island.
▶ 1:19:56Uh, it is vitally important for rhode island's coastal economy, for our fishermen, uh, and for our entire country that we, uh, crack down on unfair and illegal overseas competition. Uh, illegal international fishing undercuts law abiding american fishermen and seafood producers who play by the rules. So american fishermen play by the rules.
▶ 1:20:21The united states of america enforces the rules, and we cannot allow ourselves to be undercut by those who do not follow the rules. American fishermen who fish sustainably and follow safety, labor and environmental standards are being cheated out of compensation for their good behavior. They are being penalized for doing the right thing. And this is not a small problem.
▶ 1:20:47Illegally harvested seafood steals up to $50 billion a year out of the pockets of those men and women who are doing the right thing and playing by the rules. America's fishermen. So we need to level the playing field by cracking down on bad actors who break the rules.
▶ 1:21:06The fish act will accomplish this by blacklisting offending vessels from us ports and waters, bolstering the coast guard's enforcement capabilities, and directing the president to impose sanctions on foreign entities that participate in illegal fishing. To prioritize our international agreements by strengthening us enforcement against illegal fishing, the fish act will protect our oceans, our economy, our consumers, and our fishermen. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:21:36Conrad, I know you've spoken on this a bit already, but I'll ask you one more time. Can you just speak at a high level about the economic impacts of illegal and unauthorized fishing on american fishermen who play by the rules and do the right things? >> thank you. Congressman. Um, yes. Again, anytime that you have someone that is not playing by the rules or playing under a different, uh.
▶ 1:22:06Different set of rules for, uh, it, uh, fishing or harvesting, uh, it damages our industry. It damages in several ways. I mean, first, uh, here and abroad, uh, it punishes harvesters that are doing things the right way, right? Because it's taking resource away from them and potential stock away from harvesters who are following the rules. Secondly, it undercuts confidence in the fishery management systems that we rely on.
▶ 1:22:34Uh, gentleman earlier and the chair from the pacific northwest have a fantastic management system that's world renowned up there. Uh, and so it undercuts what, what our good actors are doing, uh, in those areas. And then finally, uh, it corrodes consumer confidence, which if it erodes consumer confidence, those consumers just may not purchase as much as that product anymore. And that certainly can can hurt someone who is doing the right thing. >> thank you.
▶ 1:23:03Um, I also just want to note, with the time I have left that, uh, noaa has an important role to play in the enforcement of this bill, should it become law, uh, by establishing that blacklist of of foreign vessels engaged in iuu fishing.
▶ 1:23:17Um, and I do want to point out that the trump administration has proposed to cut noaa workforce by 17%, reduce noaa's budget by 30%, has already cut 1000 employees from noaa. And I am concerned that inadequate staffing and adequate capacity at noaa will hurt our ability to implement this bill, should it become law.
▶ 1:23:49Um, Mr. conrad, can you just speak at a high level about the importance of adequate staffing at noaa in maintaining this list of foreign vessels that are engaged in illegal fishing? >> congressman, I've also spoken about the, uh, what I would like to see happen with the snap program currently. Uh, and I would love for those resources to be reallocated to nmfs for, uh, working with the fish act. >> all right.
▶ 1:24:18With that, I yield back. Thank you. >> gentlemen. Yields chair recognizes Mr. lamalfa for five minutes. Question. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you. Uh, uh, for our panel here. I'm sorry. It was, uh, in dueling committees here today, so, um, might be a little bit behind, but, um, appreciate it. I want to on the h.r. 338, every drop counts. Uh, um, uh, miss compton, uh, touched base with you a little bit on this. Um, uh, the.
▶ 1:24:46It's a good. I'm. I'm all in on groundwater recharge and utilizing this especially excess winter water. We have, uh, frequently in california. That could be further, uh, channeled to recharge in the valleys.
▶ 1:25:06Uh, is is the impetus for the legislation is that, uh, the the smaller districts are not, um, utilizing the ability to take advantage of this. And is that why is that part of the reason the expansion up to, uh, 150,000 acre feet to size districts and ability is important here or or, uh, within, within the scope.
▶ 1:25:31>> so the impetus for the legislation really comes out of conversations that I or who I'm with. And the roseville, rosedale, rio bravo storage district, who's a partner, um, with us. And we're moving forward with the current groundwater storage project, which is one of the small handful of projects that the state has funded. And in talking with the bureau of reclamation, um, the size for groundwater recharge projects just doesn't seem to make sense.
▶ 1:26:00And so, as you know, in california, we get a lot of rain really fast. And so the idea is, at least for the project, that we're moving forward to sink it in the ground, um, when it's available. And then we have dry periods with groundwater storage. You're not building a dam and a reservoir. You're allowing it to percolate in the ground naturally. And so it really the more appropriate measure that makes sense to put it on par with surface storage, as described in the small storage program, is really the amount of recharge you can do in recovery.
▶ 1:26:30And because it's done when, um, you know, it rains really heavily and that you don't do it for a while because it's dry, it's it's really aimed at averaging that out. So it puts it on par with a better metric for groundwater recharge and storage. That's the goal of the. >> so do you find the 30,000 acre foot, uh, um, firewall has impeded more of this work that could be done then? Is that is that part of the problem? >> yes, sir. >> um, now, is there the resources available, the funding available?
▶ 1:27:00Um, I my understanding it's going to use already appropriated, which is fine. You know, I'm not talking against it, but there's 43 million already appropriated. Well, this in any way, uh, make more competition than than there's dollars to implement the program for other districts. >> my understanding is there's certainly strong interest in this program.
▶ 1:27:22And so with the $43 million left, it, you know, there could be and I I'm hearing that there is more interest is the bureau of reclamation will issue their nofo for the next rounds of funding. Um, but I think it'll also, um, encourage more folks to take a look at it. But if congress reauthorizes it and appropriates more funding, I think it will also, you know, result in more projects that actually come to completion.
▶ 1:27:52>> now it's subject to nepa review and permitting, etc. Um, do you think that it's going to be even more difficult for a, you know, a project that's five times the amount of acre feet in scope from 150 versus 30,000? Is it going to be even more, uh, compound the ability to get nepa and other reviews done, or will you get economies of scale and actually be easier? What do you think?
▶ 1:28:19>> I actually think it'll be easier with groundwater recharge projects. You don't have as many of the environmental, um, impacts that you may have with, say, a surface storage project. >> I'm not talking surface storage. I'm talking versus a larger project versus a smaller groundwater. >> uh, I actually think that, um, it'll be easier to get the nepa done. You're creating more environmental benefits with wetlands and other things. And so we don't see that as a challenge. When you go from 30,000 acre feet to 150,000 acre feet, right? >> right.
▶ 1:28:48Well, I'm all the above, including above ground storage, too. So, you know, we got big opportunities with, uh, shasta and of course, sites reservoir to, uh, have more above ground. And, um, and I'm all for when we have these high flows to ship them your way to, uh, make sure that we're, uh, doing as much recharge as possible during these, uh, january and february timelines. It's somewhat frustrating that, uh, that the state isn't automatically issuing the permits to do so.
▶ 1:29:16It's like, oh, heck, we should get these permits out while the water is already flowing by to, uh, be able to channel that water into those projects. So we need to get dwr in the gang a little more front loaded on that. So, uh, anyway, thank you. I'll yield back. Mr. chairman. >> gentleman yields. Chair recognizes the man from alaska. Mr. baker, it's your turn. >> thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:29:38I want to take a moment to speak to the fish act, and I want to commend representative crenshaw and senator sullivan for their leadership on this important legislation. As an alaskan, I cannot overstate how serious the threat of illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing is not only to the health of our oceans, but to the economic security of our fishing communities and the long term sustainability of fisheries. Alaska is home to the largest, most sustainable commercial fisheries in the united states.
▶ 1:30:08Our communities depend on clean, healthy oceans and reliable harvests. But when foreign fleets often state, state subsidized and often operating far outside the bounds of responsible management, flood global markets with illegally harvested seafood, they undermine both conservation efforts and the livelihoods of law abiding american fishermen. The fish act tackles that threat at its source.
▶ 1:30:32First, the establishment of a robust noaa mandated blacklist for vessels engaged in iuu fishing is a critical step forward. Many of these vessels repeatedly reflag conceal ownership or ignore international rules, denying them U.S. port privileges, denying them services, and publicly identifying their beneficial owners are powerful tools that will increase transparency and raise real costs for illegal operations.
▶ 1:31:00Second, the bill strengthens coast guard enforcement in alaska. The coast guard patrols remote waters, often adjacent to heavily exploited areas fished by large foreign fleets from russia and china, increasing inspections and improving coordination with regional fisheries management organizations directly supports our men and women on the front lines and reinforces deterrence where it matters most.
▶ 1:31:20Third, the bill addresses the unacceptable link between iuu fishing and forced labor, forced labor aboard distant water fleets is widely documented, and the seafood harvested under those conditions enters global markets at artificially low prices. Alaska fishermen should never have to compete against seafood produced under abusive and illegal labor practices.
▶ 1:31:46The fish act rightly strengthens us efforts to prevent the importation of such products. At its core, the fish act protects american workers, american fisheries, and american coastal communities. It says clearly that the united states will not be a safe harbor for illegal vessels, or a landing zone for illegally caught seafood. In alaska, we know how to manage fisheries sustainably for today and for the next generation.
▶ 1:32:10The fish act reinforces that model internationally by cracking down on competitors who refuse to play by the rules. My first question. Uh, Mr. conrad, can you help quantify in terms of american employment, what impact foreign, illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing practices have had? >> congressman, thank you for the question.
▶ 1:32:35Um, that's um, that's again, that's that's hard to to do because again, these species are illegal, unregulated and unreported. Um, by nature. Um, we we do know, though, that it impacts, uh, to your point, the, the good actors that we have, uh, here in the united states, you mentioned and I mentioned a little bit ago, our, our colleagues in the pacific northwest that really are the gold standard and have come a long way, uh, in sustainability,
▶ 1:33:07Uh, and good labor practices. So it's hard to quantify that. Uh, what you're what you're asking about the impact that it has here, but we know that it does, uh, put our commercial fishermen at a competitive disadvantage. Uh, and hopefully with the passage of the fish act, we can we can help with that. >> and just a follow up question there. Can you speak to the impact that iu practices are having on the ability to maintain, maintain sustainable, healthy and predictable fisheries around the world?
▶ 1:33:33How threatening are these practices to the ecosystem? >> um, again, congressman, that that's a difficult one for me to quantify, but I could try to do some research and get back to you if that would be okay. >> that sounds good. Doctor sweetman, I see you shaking your head. Do you have some thoughts on that? >> yeah, illegal practices for fishing can be very destructive. I mean, there's no concern about benthic habitat, no concern for fisheries.
▶ 1:34:02It's just a pillage type of operation. So they can be destructive. >> thank you. And that that's been our observation and our experience. When we see this sort of activity we can see it collapse fisheries. And they can take decades, decades to recover. Uh, when you have, uh, bad actors, uh, operating, uh, in, in territories around the world, and they do so for short term economic gain.
▶ 1:34:26But it puts american fisheries and the businesses that employ, uh, these fishermen and fisherwomen at great risk. And I want to just say that, look, at the end of the day, one of our jobs here in congress is to protect the american worker. We want to make sure that we're all operating on a level playing field. And that is one of the many reasons I support the fish act, and I urge my colleagues to do the same. And with that, I yield back. >> gentleman yields.
▶ 1:34:55I want to thank all of you for being here today, our witnesses providing this valuable testimony, uh, the members for the questions. The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses. And we will ask you to respond to them in writing under rule. Under committee rule three, members of the committee must submit questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m. Eastern on monday, the 24th of november. The hearing record will be held open for ten business days.
▶ 1:35:24For these responses, if there is no further business. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.