▶ 0:07:10Happy birthday.
▶ 0:08:44The subcommittee on East Asia and the Pacific and the Subcommittee on South and Central Asia will come to order. This joint hearing will assess the current situation in Burma, including the upcoming sham elections, the dire humanitarian situation facing the Rohhinga community, and ways to address the proliferation of scam centers and fentinel hurting the lives of everyday Americans.
▶ 0:09:12I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Welcome to today's joint East Asia in the Pacific in South and Central Asia subcommittee hearing on the ongoing military and humanitarian crisis in Burma titled No Exit Strategy: Burma's Endless Crisis and America's Limited This hearing aims to illuminate a prominent source of regional instability
▶ 0:09:43and a significant foreign policy opportunity for the United States. Burma is a failed state, rapidly becoming the world's center of organized crime with more than half of its population living in poverty, nearly 3.6 6 million people internally displaced and millions more having fled to neighboring countries.
▶ 0:10:09Although resistance forces have achieved notable successes over the past year and a half, the Honta remains resilient, still controlling about 20% of the country's land, while opposition forces control roughly twice that amount. Since Burma's military coup in 2021, the Honta has only worked to further legitimize itself despite some claims that it is in decline.
▶ 0:10:38The Tamado, Burma's military honta, is slated to hold sham elections in December 2025, where the results are predetermined in a bid to disguise authoritarian control as democratic process. These elections are designed to create an illusion of legitimacy while allowing the honta to continue serving as a proxy for China and Russia.
▶ 0:11:07Both powers have aided the tamados numerous war crimes by propping up the regime with weapons and surveillance The United States has a moral obligation to call out and act against both human rights abuses and author uh autocratic While cuts to foreign assistance have reduced our ability to assist in disasters and in the conflict rate at large, the conflict presents
▶ 0:11:37an opportunity for the United States to strengthen its regional interests in regard to supply chain security, economic partnerships, and critical mineral initiatives. This hearing also addresses the direct and immediate consequences of Burma's conflict on the American people. Make no mistake, America's interests in this conflict are not humanitarian alone.
▶ 0:12:04Honta affiliated scamming networks operating within Burma have targeted Americans, stealing billions of dollars a year from American taxpayers. These funds not only benefit transnational criminal networks, but continue to line the pockets of the military. Honta. Congress must act immediately to protect our citizens hardearned savings.
▶ 0:12:30Burma's humanitarian catastrophe is its strategic importance in Southeast Asia and the ongoing wars harmful effects on everyday Americans all demand a thorough re-evaluation of the United States policy. Indeed, when we consider both the domestic and foreign policy implications of the crisis in Burma, greater American attention to the conflict and its outcome truly puts America first.
▶ 0:13:02To address these challenges, the committee has gathered an excellent panel of witnesses who will help us further unpack the many dimensions of Burma's conflict. So, I look forward to engaging with them on this critical issue. Thank you. I now recognize ranking member Ami Baraf to make his five minutes opening remarks.
▶ 0:13:23Thank you, Chairwoman Kim and um Chairman Heisinga um and ranking member Klag for hosting a hearing on this important topic. Um and I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today. We're grateful for your expertise. Um and I look forward to your testimony. I won't reiterate everything that um the chairwoman said, but I agree with everything that you did say in terms of the complexity of this conflict. Um and the ongoing is, you know, um there's no easy solution here.
▶ 0:13:52Um you know, you pointed out the importance of calling out these sham elections that are that are coming up. These are not legitimate free and fair elections. These are elections where the HUTA is um trying to legitimize themselves. We have to make sure we call out the elections for what they are. Um, also, you know, you talked about the the um scam centers that are preying upon um, you know, US citizens, but also are funding the the the military honta.
▶ 0:14:22That is a real challenge as well. And it's something that not just the United States, but it is um impacting Southeast Asia and other ASEAN nations. this is an area where we should be working closely together to to try to um disrupt these um organized crime networks um and scam centers.
▶ 0:14:41The other thing that um I'd like to touch on also is um what we see in terms of the the PRC supporting some of the the the Aunta providing military aid and and and others.
▶ 0:14:55This is an area where we should use the full power of Congress, Democrats and Republicans to continue to put pressure on um the Chinese and others um including bringing in the Indians who also are you know seeing the crossber refugee crisis to work together to try to find an end. And lastly, you know, from the beginning of the conflict in um 2021, we've worked closely with the ACSEAN nations, the Southeast Asian nations.
▶ 0:15:21You I recently met with the Indonesian ambassador, welcoming the new ambassador here. We did talk about next steps and how we can support ACSEAN um to find a resolution to this. Um and it's not just a a resolution. We've seen the resilience of the the Burmese people in terms of fighting for their liberty and freedom and a path forward. Um it's been remarkable um that they've been able to sustain um this for this long.
▶ 0:15:51This is an opportunity to try to you know facilitate real change where we can empower the people of Burma to find their path forward will not be easy. It will take partnership with the other Southeast Asian nations. it'll take um ACSEAN leadership and then the other partner neighboring nations that have a real stake here um Bangladesh, India and others. So again, thank you for this timely hearing.
▶ 0:16:18Um I think it is important this is an incredibly complicated and complex challenge. Um but this is also an opportunity if we work together with like valued allies with the ACEAN nations um hopefully we can um affect a more positive outcome down the road and in the future. So thank you chairwoman Kim and I yield
▶ 0:16:39Thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from South and Central Asia subcommittee gentleman from Michigan Representative Hazinga for your opening statement. Well, thanks, Cheer Kim, and I'm I'm thrilled to be able to do this uh this hearing with you and to pull in uh the uh the folks from South Central Asia committee uh as well as your vital committee.
▶ 0:17:02And uh interestingly enough, yesterday I met with the uh quite new uh ambassador from Bangladesh. And uh my goal with uh that meeting was to first and foremost say thank you uh for what uh Bangladesh is doing in Cox's bazaar in and uh the the number is now he informs me 1.3 million Rohhinga that are there.
▶ 0:17:29Uh they have about 35,000 births uh per year and still an approximately 100,000 uh refugees coming across per year. And so there is certainly a strain uh on uh on uh whether it's Bangladesh and as my friend Ammy Bara had mentioned India as well and others in that region who are helping um and uh madam chair I I've mentioned many times before in this committee our foreign affairs committee
▶ 0:17:59as well as the financial services committee where I'm vice chair that the Burma issues are near and dear to my heart as well as the heart of my constituency. uh especially those constituents at the Battle Creek Burma Center in Southwest Michigan. That is what uh prompted me uh to really take a much more focused look at what is going on.
▶ 0:18:19And year after year, I've I've heard their stories and their desire for an end to the violence perpetuated by the Honta uh and and they want to promote an open and inclusive democratic system and return to a safe and stable and secure Burma. And I know that's the the goal of a few of our guests that are here in the audience with us today.
▶ 0:18:40And without objection, Madam Chair, I'd like to submit for the record a letter addressed to this committee uh from more than 90 civil society organizations regarding the situation in Burma. Uh they write in their letter, it went to both the House Foreign Affairs Committee as well as the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. quote, "Burma's military has always been and remains today the single greatest source of instability and economic destruction in the country." Close quote. Sadly, I think those words ring very true.
▶ 0:19:10And unfortunately, since February 2021, when a military coup replaced the democratically elected government in Burma, uh the these desires for a new Burma are a long way from being fully realized. Uh protests and general strikes from pro-democracy advocates led the military regime's indiscriminate crackdown, including the killing of protesters and previously elected leaders and air strikes against schools, IDP camps, and civilian All of which manifests into human rights violations
▶ 0:19:40perpetuated by the oppressive and illegitimate military regime. The civil war between the military huta and the ethnic resistance organizations rages on, wreaking havoc across the country. And thanks to unfettered uh arms supply line from Russia and China, uh the military regime controls the airspace.
▶ 0:19:59And just last week, the military huna took delivery of Russian helicopters and Chinese military aircraft, which will ultimately be used to fight resistance forces and civilians in the mountainous regions of the country. The Huta's grasp on its territory has become so desperate, the Honta activated mandatory conscription last year, forcibly recruiting Rohhinga Muslims to fight on the regime's behalf or to use them as human shields, even as the regime has long persecuted the Rohhinga themselves.
▶ 0:20:29In the Huta's late latest ploy to build legitimacy around their illegitimate regime, a firstofits-kind election has been called for December 28 of this year, 2025. As co-chair of the Congressional Burma Caucus, I have significant concerns about the lack of electoral rules and structures in this deeply flawed process.
▶ 0:20:48Additionally, the engagement uh I'm sorry, the enactment of a recent July 2025 election protection law targets anyone who speaks out or protests against the election and threatens years of imprisonment or even death for those that are convicted. This move only further chills the democratic process in Burma. To say that these elections are shaping up to be fe free or fair is delusional.
▶ 0:21:13Moving forward, the United States strong voice and stalwart leadership could have a lasting impact on the region. I've frankly been encouraged by the Trump administration's interest in the region, including multiple rounds of sanctions designated from Treasury targeting Burmese uh armed groups with links to scam compounds and a Burmese arms procurement network linked to North Korea.
▶ 0:21:34Additionally, since October, this administration has pledged over 130 million for the Rohingya refugee crisis and pushed 11 countries to increase their aid response to the Rihenga by more than 10%. In terms of assistance, the United States has provided more than a third of all aid to the Rhinga Humanitarian Crisis Joint Response Plan in 2025, more than double than that of any nation. I see my time is running out.
▶ 0:21:59Um, but I just want to uh add again, I'm encouraged to see the July 2025 Quad Summit joint statement on being uh bringing muchneeded international attention to the Burma crisis. more can and should be done by this administration and our global partners to stop the bleeding in Burma. So I look forward to our conversation today and with that I yield
▶ 0:22:21Thank you. I now recognize the ranking member of South and Central Asia subcommittee my dear friend from California, Representative uh Sydney Cam Dove.
▶ 0:22:33Well, thank you madam and Mr. chair for bringing us together for this joint bipartisan hearing so we can speak with one voice on this important topic. The conflict in Burma reverberates far beyond its borders. And I want to focus especially on the instability it creates in South Asia. The largest refugee encampment in the world is in Bangladesh, home to a forgotten crisis.
▶ 0:22:56the 1.5 million Rahinga refugees who fled ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Burmese military huna in what the United States determined to be a genocide in 22. For the Rahinga, Rakine state in Burma is their motherland and their home. But for decades, they have been treated as outsiders in their own land, targeted by the military, maligned by other Burmese ethnic minorities, and stripped of their citizenship.
▶ 0:23:20The Rahena are now the world's largest stateless population, a status passed down from one generation to the next. Years after renewed ethnic cleansing and the outbreak of civil war, the Rahena and Burma are still the large target of brutal genocidal violence. The Arakhan army, an ethnicar armed organization that resumed fighting the military huna in late 23, has massacred the Rahenga and territory under its control.
▶ 0:23:46This has forced an additional 150,000 Rahinga to seek safety in Bangladesh in the past 18 months alone. In Cox's bazaar, however, the Rahenga confront another harrowing set of challenges. Bangladesh, which faces major strains on its state capacity, has demonstrated incredible generosity in hosting the Rahena refugees, a responsibility that must be shouldered by the entire international community.
▶ 0:24:13And while we all share the same goal for the Rahena to live safely as equal citizens in their home country, policies to ensure that the refugee camps remain a temporary solution have in many ways had the opposite effect. Instead, it has deprived the Rahena of their agency to build a life for themselves and end their reliance on government and international support. The Rahena do not have the right to work or the freedom of movement to leave the camps.
▶ 0:24:38They have limited access to any livelihood or educational opportunities, depriving them of the right to human development. They are not permitted to build permanent structures, resulting in vulnerability to flooding, landslides, and fires, and constant costly rebuilding. Insecurity in the camps has exploded as armed groups battle for dominance and traffic young Rahena into prostitution, slavery, or conscription.
▶ 0:25:02In the Burmese military, women and girls are disproportionately impacted as always with an uptick in gender-based violence and child marriages as conditions deteriorate. The Rahinga crisis requires sustained US leadership to support the Bangladesh government, ensure robust assistance and improvements to the humanitarian response, and to find permanent solutions for many of the Rahena.
▶ 0:25:26Alleviating the pressure on Bangladesh's limited state capacity is essential to promoting stability in the country as the interim government works to rebuild from past authoritarian rule and manage its political transition ahead of elections next year.
▶ 0:25:42While I was glad to see the administration announce new funding pledges to support Rahenga refugees, the $168 million the administration provided in fiscal year 25 is less than half of the 354.5 million the United States provided in 24. Even as humanitarian needs arise, such a significant funding cut will directly impact the lives of Rahena, whose food rations amount to about $12 a day.
▶ 0:26:10The US must also work with the Bangladesh government and our partners in the region to improve conditions for the Rohena both within the camps and to find sustainable solutions outside the camps. This first and foremost requires a cohesive regional strategy that goes beyond a singular focus on tariffing our partners or pursuing a Nobel Peace Prize. Resettling Rahena refugees to safe third countries is an essential part of this effort.
▶ 0:26:38If the State Department is engaging other countries to accept US deportation flights, they should also be working with partners to resettle stranded refugees into a longterm solution. With newly confirmed leadership in the South and Central Asia Bureau, I hope to see sustained diplomatic engagement and resource prioritation prioritization for the Rahena refugee crisis.
▶ 0:27:01And I am ready to work with the administration on a bipartisan basis to push for sustained solutions for the Rahenga especially as Bangladesh elects a new government early next year. I look forward to today's robust discussion and how we can work together to address the Rahena crisis and the conflict in Burma that is driving it. Thank you and I yield back.
▶ 0:27:25Thank you. And I would like to note that other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. And we are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this very important topic. The Honorable Kelly Curry, non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's Indo-Pacific Security Initiative. Thanks for being with us. Steve Ross is a senior fellow from the Stimson Center.
▶ 0:27:54Thank you for being with us. Lucky Karim, the executive director of Refugee Woman for Peace and Justice. Appreciate you joining us today. This committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and we are grateful to have you here to speak with us today. Your full statements will be made part of the record and I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for member questions.
▶ 0:28:23I now recognize Ambassador Curry for your opening
▶ 0:28:29Thank you, Madam Chair, u Mr. Chairman and ranking members and other members of the committee for hosting and convening this important hearing at a time when the world is largely ignoring what's happening in Burma. Um I've worked on Burma for three decades. Um this is both the most depressing and most hopeful I've been about Burma. And I'll I think you can read my full statement to understand a little bit of why.
▶ 0:28:55Um I must uh first clarify that my remarks solely represent my personal views and not any of the many organizations with which I'm affiliated. Um and I I do refer you to my full statement for the for my entire remarks. I'm going to focus on a few recommendations.
▶ 0:29:13Um, I think that one of the things that is really key to understanding what is going on in Burma right now is that you have these trends that the that all of the um committee leadership spoke about in terms of the scam centers. Um, they did not mention rare earth mining, but that is another big issue for Burma.
▶ 0:29:36um the there are just a number of intersecting conflict economies that are fueling this war and the main beneficiary of these conflict economies and the war itself is not the not even the Burmese hunter at this point it is the people's republic of China um I I think that it is important to understand that China wants to see Burma weak divided and dependent that is their objective that is what they are are um
▶ 0:30:06trying to accomplish through their proxies, whether it's the United Was State Army or their occasional intervention to support and backs stop the military regime, the continuous flow of weapons that they provide the military regime.
▶ 0:30:21They want to see the HUNA successfully pull off these elections and bring a level of stability that allows them to continue to do business and and pull resources out of Burma without the the costs that they're having to deal with right now, the annoying problems of the conflict that Beijing has to bear. Um, at the same time, when it comes to the scam centers and the rare earth mining, Beijing is rapacious in the way that they deal with these things.
▶ 0:30:50Um the scam centers could not exist without the support that the um regime in Beijing provides to them. These scam centers are largely the the guts the backbone behind them and this is a $ 35 billion a year glo global industry. I want to be clear about that and growing quickly. Um they are using technology in a way that is astounding AI.
▶ 0:31:15um they were just raided and had hundreds of Starlink um units powering their their internet. They are at the the center of a web of some of the worst human trafficking I've ever seen in 30 years working on human rights. Um and and most abusive human trafficking system and um they are deeply connected and this is one thing I think we don't really understand very well or talk about.
▶ 0:31:41Um, these these scam centers started out as a way to launder money, including drug money, from the Mexican cartels. They've become a line of business on their own, but at heart, they're really a massive money laundering organization that benefits the very cartels that are killing Americans with fentinyl.
▶ 0:31:59And there's an increasing link between the cartels and the fentinol production in the western hemisphere and the drug production and these transnational Chinese criminal organizations that are underlying this entire web of global illicit activities. And Burma is at the center of it. And it is a strange place to be at the center of a global network of criminality.
▶ 0:32:23But because of the disagregated so sovereignty in parts of Burma and the lawlessness, it has become the perfect breeding ground for these activities. So this is a national security threat to the United States as the as the leadership mentioned. Um we do have tools we can use whe whether it's with our ally Thailand or our adversary Beijing to ratchet down pressure on these activities. We need to stop removing sanctions on Burma's armed sealers.
▶ 0:32:53We need to make clear that we will not recognize their illicit um and and illegal election. But at the end of the day, much of the source of the problem for what we're dealing with in Burma derives from across the border in the People's Republic of China. And we need to understand that as we start to think about the solutions that this committee and the administration put forward. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:33:18Thank you very much. That's very very powerful uh statement and we've taken a lot of notes and I really look forward to engaging you in questions afterwards. Um thank you. I now recognize Miss Karim for your opening statement.
▶ 0:33:37Thank you madame um and Mr. Chairman. My name is Lucky Karim. I'm a member of the Rohena community from Burma. I'd like to start by thanking members of the committee for holding this hearing and for pausing the Burma Genocide and Accountability Protection Act or Burma Gap Act out of committee. I was forced to flee my home at the age of 14 in August 2017 when the Burmese military waged a genocidal attack against the Rohena people in Rakan state.
▶ 0:34:04As a child, I lived in the wall's largest refugee settlement in Coxus Bazar, Bangladesh for six years. The Burmese military regime has been persecuting the Rohinda in Myma for decades says the military coup in Myma in February 2021. The political, economic and humanitarian crisis in the country has only grown more dire for the Rohinda as well as other thinning minorities in Burma. The remaining members of the Rohinda community in Rakan state are dying from hunger.
▶ 0:34:28Internally displaced people have zero access to humanity and aid and the genocidal violence continues even to this day. As a result, tens of thousands of people have been forced to flee their homes since 2023, bringing the total population of people languishing in the Coxus Buzzar camps to more than 1.3 million. I only have five minutes for this testimony, but I could spend the entire day listing the abuses suffered by the other ethnic and religious groups in Burma.
▶ 0:34:53Not only Rahena Muslim but also Shan, Kuran, Kachin, Mo, Karani, Rakhai, Shing, Christian, Buddhist and Hindu all across our diverse nation have endured years of persecution, war crimes and indiscriminate violence by the Burmese military. All minorities have suffered and all need to be part of the democratization process. Despite the reality on the ground, Burma's military regime is planning a shame election next month. This election will never be free or fair. It is only the way of for the military regime to seek international legitimacy.
▶ 0:35:24Our risky journeys out of my in pursuit of a better life did not start when the genocidal attacks against us in 2017. People have been fleeing persecution since at least the 1970s. Forced to be refugees in neighboring countries like Bangladesh or elsewhere. I traveled back to Bangladesh refugee camps two times this year. When I was there in February, the Walford program was preparing to announce cuts to for Russian for refugees to go down from $12 to just $6 per month for each individual.
▶ 0:35:53This is a cut that would have had devastating consequences. Thankfully, the United States has stepped up to continue funding, but that funding will only last a few more months. Meanwhile, the closing of USAD and broader aid cards have forced health clinics, learning centers, and other programs to close. People in Coxus Buzzar camps are fully dependent on the full ration that they receive once a month because the majority of them have zero earnings. The there are no livelihood opportunities for families in the camps.
▶ 0:36:20The government of Bangladesh long a generous host to Rohena refugees has done much for my community. But expanding access to livelihood and education would do perhaps more than any other policy to ensure a safe and sustainable future for the Rohena in our homeland. Most urgently, too many of our people continue to die due to violence and hunger.
▶ 0:36:40The international community and the US government must act now to pressure the Myanmar military to stop it attacks and to allow aid into Rakhine and other areas across the country facing high levels of food insecurity as we consider the future for my community. Repatriation to our ancestral homeland is the ultimate solution. It has been said before by myself and many other Rohingya but beers repeating we the Roheni community want to go back to our homeland Iraq when it is safe to do so.
▶ 0:37:08Here is what the US government can do more to help us. Congress should pass the Burma genocide accountability and protection act or the Burma gap act which lays out a comprehensive policy for addressing many of the crisis affecting our country. It would support refugees and internally displaced people. It would address the need for accountability for genocide and crimes against humanity by the Burmese military.
▶ 0:37:30It would also promote long-term solution for the Rohena citizenship rights safe and voluntarily returned to Burma inclusion in a future federal democratic system. The bill also authorized the creation of a US special representative for Burma and calls on the administration to refuse to recognize the Burmese military as the country's legitimate government. This is so important ahead of the shame elections scheduled for next month. Congress should also call for the immediate restoration of the US refugee resettlement program.
▶ 0:37:59I'm one of a few who have benefited from the kindness of the American people and America's history for reselling refugees. It has given me and many others the opportunity to speak up on the wall station in support of my community and the United States should continue to engage the Bangladesh government towards providing education and livelihood opportunities for Rahinda refugees. I would like to end here with a question for you. What will it take for my people to be able to live freely and securely in our home in Burma?
▶ 0:38:26And when the future generation of Rahena look back, will they still be asking the same question or will they be home al asking simply what took so long? Thank you.
▶ 0:38:36Thank you, Miss Kurim, for those questions and we hope to address those. That's the whole purpose of this hearing because we wanted to make sure that the suffering and the the suffering of the Rohingya population are not forgotten and we wanted to make sure that we are paying attention. So I hope uh those who are watching and listening know how committed we are. Thank you. I didn't mean to skip over you.
▶ 0:39:01Um uh as I was talking to my colleague over here, ladies first. So [laughter] let me now recognize Mr. Raz for your opening statement.
▶ 0:39:14Chairwoman Kim, Chairman Heisinga, Ranking Members Bara and Kamler Dove, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and for your continued attention to Myanmar. In summarizing my written statement, I will emphasize three key points. First, the Myanmar military is a primary driver of instability within Myanmar and has been so for decades. Second, planned elections are an attempt to consolidate and entrench the military's control in Myanmar.
▶ 0:39:41And third, the regime that emerges from elections will continue to pose a threat to stability in Myanmar, the region, and US interests in both the Indo Pacific and at home. Nearly 5 years ago, a military coup in Myanmar prevented a de democratically elected parliament from taking office. After the military opened fire on peaceful protesters, armed resistance grew, and Myanmar's civil war expanded to most of the country. In response, the Myanmar military has waged a brutal counterinsurgency insurgency campaign with devastating and intentional impacts on civilians.
▶ 0:40:12The Myanmar military has killed thousands of civilians, many victims of indiscriminate air strikes and torture, jailed 20,000 political prisoners, tortured 120,000 homes, displaced three and a half million people, blocked humanitarian aid and access to communications, and implemented a system of state surveillance. Despite this, resistance forces have made remarkable gains against the military.
▶ 0:40:34Operation 1027, a KIA 2023 offensive, yielded unprecedented territorial victories and demonstrated unprecedented collaboration among ethnic and Burmese armed groups. Territorial gains have allowed resistance actors to establish or consolidate bottom-up governance structures, providing social services and humanitarian assistance.
▶ 0:40:55Significant support from China, the forced conscription of 80,000 and an escalation of air attacks has enabled the Myanmar military to shift some of the momentum on the battlefield over the past year. But it has only managed to regain a fraction of the territory it has lost. It is in this context that the Myanmar military now plans to hold elections beginning December 20 28th. The results are for ordained.
▶ 0:41:16A 2023 law effectively dissolved political parties, including the National League for Democracy, which won 86% of the 498 seats elected to the Parliament in 2020. In contrast, the 57 parties contesting this year, won only 11% of seats, and only one party, the military proxy USDP, won more than five seats. The re regime also changed the electoral system to include proportional representation to give the impression that elections are taking place in a wider swath of territory than will be the case.
▶ 0:41:46Stifling disscent, the military has arrested 200 people under a new law that punishes criticism of or disruption to the elections. These socalled elections will not be free, fair, or inclusive. They do not represent the will of the Myanmar people, and they do not present a path either towards democracy or a peaceful and sustainable solution to Myanmar's conflict. Rather, they are intended to garner international recognition for the regime in the hopes that this will translate into political, financial, and military support that enables it to consolidate control.
▶ 0:42:17If it succeeds, the Myanmar military will continue to pose a threat to regional instability and US interests in the Indoacific and at home. China wields unparalleled and growing sway in Myanmar, throwing its weight around to advance its geostrategic interests through major infrastructure projects, trade routes, and access to Myanmar's rare earths. China also seeks to maintain leverage over all stakeholders in Myanmar and ensure Myanmar remains within its sphere of influence and the West stays out.
▶ 0:42:44Though it may be tempting to engage the Myanmar military to contain China, doing so would undermine US interests. Scam centers have proliferated since the coup with Chinese crime syndicates, the Myanmar military, and military- aligned militias all profiting from the 10 billion dollars Americans lost to scams last year. A recent crackdown on KK Park is purely performative. Scam leaders were allowed to escape, evidence was destroyed, and dozens of scam centers with over 100,000 people, many trafficking victims, continue to operate with impunity.
▶ 0:43:14Myanmar is also the world's largest producer of opium and the production of meth methamphetamines and synthetic drugs has surged since the coup. Moreover, Myanmar is the world's sixth leading source of refugees and with a collapse in immunizations and treatment for infectious disease risks becoming a hot spot for global health Given that the threat that the Myanmar military poses to the US interests, Congress and the US administration should reject the military planned elections and the regime that emerges while encouraging partners and allies in the region
▶ 0:43:44to do the same. Engage and support the spectrum of democratic and resistance actors who offer a better prospect for securing a peaceful Myanmar that advances US interests. Provide continued life-saving humanitarian support to populations in Myanmar and refugees in neighboring countries while ensuring aid is not channeled through the military. Seek to counterbalance Chinese influence while managing expectations for the US role.
▶ 0:44:07And building upon recent efforts, address transnational crime through additional targeted sanctions, enhanced enforcement and coordination, and improved investigative capacity. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:44:19Thank you very much for all of your wonderful testimonies. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. So, we've all heard from you and you know there is going to be a um election that's taking place soon next month. But under the current situation, political prisoners are still detained and opposition parties are excluded and the military controls the elections.
▶ 0:44:48So, we know the election will be predetermined as we mentioned. So under these conditions, can any legitimate electoral outcome occur? And how should the United States respond to that? And um do we categorically just reject those elections or is there any value in limited engagement? I'd like to ask Ambassador Curry and Mr. Ross to
▶ 0:45:15Uh thank you for the question, Madam Chairwoman. I think that we must refuse to um recognize the elections. They will be uncatategorical. I mean, there's there's no way they could represent a genuine expression of the will of the Burmese people. The for all the reasons that have been um laid out already. I think that the other important thing to do is to recognize the decisive enabler role that China again is playing with the elections.
▶ 0:45:43They are not only publicly backing the elections and the regime in this role um but they are putting pressure on other Azan countries to to have Azon recognize and participate in these elections. So far Azon has resisted that pressure. It is important regionally that we backs stop Azion and um and and make sure that they understand that we will not recognize the elections and encourage them also not to agree to recognize those elections.
▶ 0:46:10I think also that we need to be very clear about um you typically we have legislation in place that is global that allows us to put sanctions on individuals who are involved in um in tearing tearing down democratic institutions and we can use those authorities. I would encourage that we do that.
▶ 0:46:29I think we also need to make it very clear by um getting rid of uh regimeapp appointed diplomats who are in the United States espec es especially those who are involved in terrorizing Myammar citizens who are here in the United States. Um and that includes the military attaches at the embassy here and at their permanent mission in New York who are involved in transnational oppression. Those individuals are likely to be used to force people and coers them to participate in this election.
▶ 0:46:58and we want to make sure that they are not doing that on US soil. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Russ.
▶ 0:47:04Thank you. I agree with uh Ambassador Curry and would add that um I don't think that the elections can be viewed as legitimate and that the they should be rejected by the US. What the military is hoping out of these elections is that there will be a slippery slope of recognition and support from within the region that flows to beyond it and that that will translate into the political, financial and military support that will enable it to consolidate control in Myanmar.
▶ 0:47:31And um as I've I've stated in my opening statement and in my written statement, I think that is counter to to US interests. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:38Thank you very much. Um I know both of you talked about the the China's influence and how they control so much of what's going on right now and including of course you know I pay a lot of attention to uh the importance of critical mineral supply chain and this is also an issue but I we wanted to focus much uh today's hearing on uh sham elections and scam centers and the implications of uh Beijing backing the ha to victory through these illegitimate uh elections.
▶ 0:48:09So can you quickly talk about what leverage that we have? You talked about using the sanctions and all but is there any ways that we can really come down on what's happening and uh what kind of leverage can United States have to mitigate the consequences of a China backed uh military regime?
▶ 0:48:31Um, I think we do still have headroom on our sanctions regimes to ensure that we are not facilitating the financial resources that allow the regime to conduct the election and then continue to operate after these during before, during, and after. We've been very effective in terms of cutting off um arms access and um financial pathways for the regime. But there is still more that we can do there.
▶ 0:48:57And again, the purpose of sanctions is to keep these illicit transactions out of the US um financial system. So we have a a vested interest in keeping these bad actors out. So I think we do need to think more creatively and aggressively and we need to stop taking sanctions off of people like the arms dealer that we just remove sanctions for no apparent reason on one of the regime's biggest arms dealers.
▶ 0:49:22So, we need to stop doing things like that and we need to support the opposition, find more creative ways to assist the Democratic um opposition through um the kinds of means that Chairman Wisinga has put forward in the Burma Brave Act and in the Burma Act that has already passed Congress and been signed by the president and has a lot of tools available. Sorry for going over time.
▶ 0:49:47Thank you very much. I'm sorry. My time's up. So, I'm going to recognize ranking member Cindy Cam of for
▶ 0:49:53Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Miss Kareem, I wanted to expand on something that you'd mentioned in your opening uh testimony about um the restrictions placed on the Rahenga's ability to leave the camps or earn a living. Can you speak to the impact that funding cuts to the humanitarian response have on the refugees quality of life?
▶ 0:50:17Thank you. Um I think we've seen two types of uh aid cards in the past. One time it went down from $12 to $10. The other time it went down from $12 to $8 for Russian food from Walford program that the refugee receive every month. And we have seen hundreds of women and children have taken rxes on a tiny boat traveling to neighboring countries.
▶ 0:50:39this they intended to arrive in Malaysia but they end up in Indonesia, Thailand and even Myanmar border and be jal for 5 years in a passport case or so. um we've seen those results happened when the eight cards um two times happened in the past and then as I as I mentioned in my um opening statement but also in the written um statement um it was it was the announce and the announcement we're preparing already in February and if if that happened um then we would assume that people might even return back to Burma and be killed because
▶ 0:51:09that's the only option refugees would then have because we've seen refugees when they arrive in those neighboring countries they're not being welcomed or recognized as refugee and are not being allowed to walk um and they have been called the illegal immigrant in those countries and even being detained for years and years.
▶ 0:51:25Um so those are the the the recent impacts um of the aid cards we have seen but there are many the programs for women and children in the camps u for GBB for example protectionist and other programs have completely been closed in the camps including the learning centers for children that used to be um run by UNCCF and other other agencies in the camps have completely been closed. So, thank you for that.
▶ 0:51:48I um also I know that this year the Trump administration terminated US support for uh the Asian University for Women in Bangladesh, which allows disadvantaged women to get uh higher education via US funded scholarships. So, I could you speak to and maybe you too, Ambassador Curry, speak to the impact of that program for Rohingya girls and the need for education for children um in the camps.
▶ 0:52:15Yeah, I was I was one of the first uh Rohhinga girl to to begin with and to go to the university um back in 2019 and we now have I think a 100 or so students already at the campus um for generations and generations in Burma, Rohingya have been um denied access to education after just high schools. And so this was this was the first time in many generations that the women had the larger group of women had access to higher education at the university.
▶ 0:52:42and that allows women to to be part of the decision-making processes to speak up um against their injustice and to be to be to to be able to do the works in the camps um freely and to serve the community and their families and I'm one of the one of the examples of that um access getting access to the educations from that university and being being able to deliver the messages of my community today.
▶ 0:53:05Um so that will that will allow Rohingya women to prevent from from jandab based violence from sexual violence from even human traffickers um to be to get access to education. So I would encourage to continue funding the programs and to to allow uh Rohhinga children in the campus and and especially girls in particular at the university to continue studying.
▶ 0:53:24Thank you. I don't know Ambassador Curry if you wanted to add.
▶ 0:53:27Um I think you can see from Lucky that she is one of the success stories of that program and that initiative. It also there was also an initiative to fund um [clears throat] slots at that same university for Afghan women and girls that has also been um as far as I know is also gone. This is a again very small program. It was it was a really but but very high impact.
▶ 0:53:50we were able to leverage small amounts of funding, give the scholarships um through the Asian University for Women um and and they were it created a network of women within the camps who were able to advocate for their own rights, the rights of their family, the rights of their camp block um to in to deal with situations of gender-based violence, of criminal gangs operating in the camps.
▶ 0:54:16These women were really and and have been and still are the the the one of the main protective elements in the camps where there aren't very many protective elements. And and you have to imagine a city of 1.3 million people that is basically run by criminal gangs and um that's mostly comprised of women and children. And you can only, you know, let your mind wander to where that ends up.
▶ 0:54:46It is it is a really dangerous and and dep and deprived place um the camps in Kudaong. And so these women really are incredible in the work that they do inside the camps and to protect their communities and their families. Thank you.
▶ 0:55:01Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 0:55:03Thank you. I now recognize Chairman Hzinga for your five minutes of
▶ 0:55:08Thank you, Madam Chair. And u I want to first start by actually submitting for the record the uh the letter signed by the 90 uh groups.
▶ 0:55:16Yes, without objection.
▶ 0:55:18Thank you. Um uh and I want to say thank you to each of you for for being here and helping shed some light on this. And Ambassador Curry, I u going to start with you. Um, in June of 2024, the UN special uh repator Tom Andrews uh produced a report called the banking on the death trade.
▶ 0:55:40And he found that the honta is increasingly reliant on Thai companies and banks to facilitate the importation of weapons and other material, making Thailand the leading source of Burmese military supplies purchased through the international banking system. Additionally, with the sanctioning of the MFTB and the MICB, uh the HUTA has moved its financial services to the uh to the MEB.
▶ 0:56:04Uh and my my bill, which you had had mentioned, the Brave Burma Act calls for a mandatory sanctions on MEB uh and the impact would be uh would allow US and allied sanctions on MEB uh to disrupt the HUA's ability to wage war. And I might add that there's a few other initiatives. the Burma Gap Act and the Dismantle Foreign Scam Syndicates Act offered by ranking member Meeks and and our colleague from Indiana Mr.
▶ 0:56:29Shrieve uh respectful respectively and uh I believe they should be considered necessary steps to the the Honta as well. But could you could you illuminate us a little bit on what that would mean uh to disrupting the military Huta's ability to wage war uh against these ethnic resistance organizations? Uh, thank you for the question. Um, Mr.
▶ 0:56:53Chairman, I think that what what we should do first of all is thank the ties for following the following up on that report and debanking the entities that were involved. Unfortunately, as you know, the um Myar Economic Bank, the MEB has set up another pathway. So, we do need to put full sanctions on the MEB. There was an argument at one point that there would be humanitarian effects on this and that it would create problems for the people of Burma.
▶ 0:57:22But I think it's important to understand that most people in Burma do not use the formal banking system. They do everything they can to avoid any engagement with the formal economy with the government because it is so predatory and they know that the government treats the MEB or the the HUNA I shouldn't call it the government, the Huna treats the MEB as a piggy bank to fund the war effort.
▶ 0:57:44So they they are very well aware of this and so they avoid those official systems and the it's believed that the effect will be minimal but we do need to we do know that MEB is sanctioning uh is is still moving forward and sanctioning MEB would interrupt some of the flows from Russia and China that allow them to purchase weapons because Russia and China want to be paid in dollars. They do not want jot.
▶ 0:58:10Let's be very clear, they are setting up some alternative mechanisms to pay in rimb, but the Russians want cash on the barrel head. They need hard currency and so they they need the money. Um so sanctioning me and UAB, which is another path that they use um another bank would be very important. Thank you.
▶ 0:58:30So I'm hearing keep the pressure up on Thailand. Thank them for what they've done, but let's let's continue that conversation. Sorry, I'm I'm going to be go trying to go quickly uh to uh both Miss Kareem and and possibly Mr. Ross here. Um what what con until this really resolves?
▶ 0:58:50I'm I'm curious what uh what influence does the US have with host countries like Bangladesh uh to prevent harmful repu uh repatriation of the refugees uh to the uh Rakin state. So and Kareem if [snorts] you would like.
▶ 0:59:08Thank you. Um, as I I clearly mentioned in the written uh stimman, I think it is it is just not safe for us to for refugees in Kakus Bazar to return back to my there has to be much more to get done to create a condition that would allow Rohinga to return back to my um and US could definitely support um creating some international monetary inside the country to make sure the conditions and situations are getting improved and there are paths um though it sounds like impossible to send
▶ 0:59:38back these refugees at this time given their ground reality. But there are parts um allowing internally displaced people to return back to their homes without any conditions um and restrictions and then allowing the humanitarian actors, organizations and donors to operate legally and freely within the Rakan state to improve the condition and provide humaniting in the country.
▶ 0:59:58Okay, Mr. Ross, 10 seconds. Yeah, I would just add that um there are several countries in the region that have forcibly repatriated Myanmar nationals, not only Rahinga into Myanmar despite the risks that they have faced in doing so. Uh and there is uh a role that the US can play in engaging with these countries, encouraging them not to uh undertake this practice um and ensuring that non-refal is is not an option that they pursue. Thanks.
▶ 1:00:27I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:00:28Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Rhode Island, Mr. Amo, Representative Amo.
▶ 1:00:34Thank you uh Chairwoman Kim and Chairman Heisener for hosting this uh joint hearing and uh thank you to the ranking members and thank you to our witnesses uh for being here. You know, on May 21st, Secretary Rubio testified in front of our committee and and told me directly in my questioning that no children uh are dying on our watch. because of the Trump administration's cuts to foreign aid.
▶ 1:01:02Quote, "No children are dying on our watch," unquote. That was true, untrue then and it's untrue today. Children were dying on his watch and sadly they still are. Recent reportings found that President Trump and Secretary Rubio's cuts to our foreign assistance program and the illegal dismantling of USA ID led to the deaths of over 600,000 people including 400,000 children worldwide.
▶ 1:01:30To put that in perspective, Chair Kim, that is more than the entire population of Anaheim, 346,000 in Orange, 139,000 your district or more than twice the population of Grand Rapids, 200,000 or Kalamazoo, 73,000 in Michigan. Chair Hazinga, more than half a million people are dead because of this administration's callousness and few countries have been hit as hard as Burma.
▶ 1:01:58Look, ch civilians are dying at the hands of Burmese military huna, but also from malnutrition and lack of medical care. The United Nations estimates over 6 million children in Burma need humanitarian assistance. Now, before Trump's literal consideration of our foreign aid, the United States was the largest supporter of aid to Burma and Burmese refugees in surrounding countries.
▶ 1:02:25Congress had specifically authorized funds in a bipartisan effort to help the people of Burma. But while the president has made new commitments focused on refugees, these cuts already decimated aid programs in Burma. Health care centers were shuttered and the world food program was forced to put uh to cut back on food aid to over 1 million people.
▶ 1:02:49A Rohingya resident of a Burmese interament camp, Muhammad Taher, said, quote, I lost my son because of the funding cuts. And it is not only me. Many more children in other camps have also died helplessly from hunger, malnutrition, and no medical treatment." Muhammad shared this story two weeks before Secretary Rubio was here in our committee, uh, claiming that no children were dying under his watch.
▶ 1:03:15To be very clear, people have needlessly died uh because of this administration's decisions and they're still dying. We could restart many of these aid programs tomorrow. The funds that Congress appropriated to save lives and support American jobs is available. We could bolster the production of readytouse therapeutic foods like Plumping Nut made by Adia Nutrition in Rhode Island.
▶ 1:03:39Plumpy Nut, as you might know, is a miracle product that can save a child from severe acute malnutrition in as little as six weeks using US grown food products that support American workers and families. Miss Garum, could you please describe the role of American funded emergency food products, things like plumping up, and the role that they play uh in Burma and for the Burmese refugee populations in surrounding countries?
▶ 1:04:06And how are the cuts to American funded food programs threatening the lives of children uh that had previously been served?
▶ 1:04:16I'm not sure I can do that in 70 seconds, but what I can say is
▶ 1:04:20I'm sorry that that was that was from
▶ 1:04:23That's okay.
▶ 1:04:25Thank you. Uh thank you for the question. I think um largely um US United States has been one of the largest donors to Rohingya refugees from day one. We're very grateful for that. Um and US's funding is not only serving the people people in the camps, feeding the people it but is it is also an encouragement to other donor countries to step up or to step back from funding their programs in the camps.
▶ 1:04:50Um after the US aid cards we've seen UK, Germany and other largest donors to Rohinga refugee have also stepping away from funding and we're grateful for the recent 60 million funds for life saving assistant programs in the camps by the United States in in September. Um the US aid cuts largely um and more directly and personally have impacted the community members in the camps and especially for children um including nutrition and learning centers.
▶ 1:05:18I as I said um and the other programs that used to provide protections um and other um other programs in the camp that have completely been eliminated after the US aid cards and that put children um as a as a group as a whole at huge risks in including being being trafficked and kidnapped and in many countries even among in within the camps and even being uh forcibly recruited by the armed armed actors in the camps to be sent back to Myanmar for a fight against the military and We have seen hundreds
▶ 1:05:48of people were also sent back to my armed actors because they have nothing to do in the camps simply. They're not going to schools. They don't have anything to do. They're just in their tiny shelters whole day and whole night. So the US aid cards um as at large have directly and more personally impacted the lives of refugees but in particular the women and
▶ 1:06:08Thank you for sharing that. And so I know my time is expiring, but it's very clear lives harmed irreparably and also these foreign aid cuts are devastating our credibility in the region. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 1:06:23Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Representative Perry, for your questions.
▶ 1:06:28Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to our witnesses for being here. It distresses me that we start out the conversation by blaming the United States of American taxpayers and citizens for the problems in Burma. And and I remind my colleagues on the other side of the aisle that this has been going on for a long time. They might not have been here, but I have been here. And the United States in many cases and certainly under other administrations have have sent humanitarian assistance, which we all want to do.
▶ 1:06:58We all want to help. But I sat in this very room and complained that while we all were complaining about the fl the plate of the Rohhinga, by the time we got to doing something real about it, there weren't going to be any Rohingya left. So, it distresses me that that's where we're going to start the conversation. So, let's move on to something where we can actually try and find some tangible results, some success here.
▶ 1:07:27I guess I'm going to turn to Mr. Ross and Miss Curry about what we can do as the United States of America that doesn't encumber our taxpayers anymore because we're $ 38 trillion in debt, right? But what can we do that's actually going to have a tangible result impacting negatively the HUTA in Burma, right? What about the STAR, the stolen asset recovery system? What about access to Swift?
▶ 1:07:55What are things that we can do to hobble them and empower the people of Burma and the Rohhinga? Go ahead. Any one of you.
▶ 1:08:06Sure, I'll start. Thank you for the question. Um, I think there are several things that the US can and should be doing uh that do not require financial resources. Um, it does not require resources for us to reject the elections to engage partners and allies in the region to do the same. what the Myanmar military craves is legitimacy and denying them that will have follow-on impacts for their ability to wage war against the Myanmar people.
▶ 1:08:30Uh in addition to that, uh I think um uh the sanctions regime that's been imposed has been uh a good starting point. uh I would go beyond the imposition of sanctions itself and uh look at coordination both inter agency within the US on sanctions enforcement and coordination with allies and partners outside of the US to ensure that it is not just US sanctions that are that are having an impact. Um I'll stop there
▶ 1:08:57and and and to date from either from any administration those things haven't really been imposed or or or refined to the furthest extent that they could be. Is that about right?
▶ 1:09:09Yes, that's correct. I think there there's been a strong imposition of sanctions in incremental manner. Uh but the enforcement has not been as nearly as strong as it could be.
▶ 1:09:19Okay, ma'am.
▶ 1:09:20Uh yes, sir. I would agree that there are ways. Um the first thing that I think we should do is consider placing frozen Burmese um assets. There is about $1.5 billion in frozen Burmese funds um foreign exchange funds that are sitting in managed account that are sitting in an account right now just frozen.
▶ 1:09:38We can put those into a managed account and use the interest to provide for um some of the humanitarian needs um use the growth or whatever interest on those accounts at much as we're doing with Ukraine with the Russian assets. We can
▶ 1:09:53and that requires no act of Congress, right? The Treasury can do that. can do that with its independent authority
▶ 1:09:59Um, we should also make sure that countries that are receiving humanitarian assistance from the United States, whether through the United Nations or bilaterally, are providing opportunities for refugees and refugee communities to do work themselves. These people want to work. They will work inside the camps. They will do things, work for pay. And the governments in these countries, Bangladesh sadly, but also Thailand has limited the ability of people to work. And Thailand has a has a labor shortage.
▶ 1:10:29They need workers, but they deny them the opportunity to do this. And so, we need to be more robust in using our diplomacy to help alleviate some of the burden by allowing these communities to be a little bit more self- sustaining um and have access to other services locally. and we can work with them to provide those services in a much more cost-effective way.
▶ 1:10:50It's cheaper for us to give the ties some support to allow access or Burmese or Bangladesh some support to allow access to local services than for us to create a parallel system for the refugees. So, there are ways we can maximize what we're doing without um spending more money while also benefiting these communities in important ways. Burma has been kicked out of the Swift system for some time. Um, again, clamping down on some of these things.
▶ 1:11:18Also going after crypto and putting that taking money that they've stolen, um, whether it's scam centers or the government out of crypto accounts and moving it into the new US crypto account that we can do with the asset recovery would be a great way to help support some of these programs.
▶ 1:11:34So with the chairman's indulgence, I would just say to you two individuals, if you would get the list of things that you would recommend to my office, we would like to put that in a forum to the the administration as a request and uh and I imagine you'll have a lot of people on in this committee on both sides of the aisle that are interested in being a part of that. And with that, I yield back and I thank the
▶ 1:11:56Sure. I now recognize ranking member Ammy Bara from California for your five minutes of questioning. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and my apologies. I had to step out. So, if this is ground that's already been covered, maybe it's a question for um Mr. Ross. Getting an assessment of where the the conflict is right now. There have been times where the various ethnic resistance groups have have made progress.
▶ 1:12:22It does seem like it's either at a stalemate or um perhaps they've lost some of that progress as as China's kind of changed. Could you give us a assess assessment of what you're you see on the ground?
▶ 1:12:32Sure. Thank you for the question. Um I I don't like the term stalemate for the conflict in Myanmar. It is a very dynamic conflict and it's constantly changing. Uh over the last two years, the resistance and ethnic arm groups have made significant territorial gains uh since the launch of operation 1027 in Shan state, in Kachin state, in the north near the border with China, in the southeast in Kurin, uh in the west in in Rakine state as well as in the center in
▶ 1:13:03some uh Bamar majority regions. Um, some of those gains have been rolled back a bit in the last year as China has swung behind the military and put significant pressure on ethnic arm groups, particularly those on the China Myanmar border. Um, that have pressed them into bilateral ceasefire agreements which have then allowed the Myanmar military to redeploy resources and um and arms against other armed actors.
▶ 1:13:30Um, so that has shifted the momentum somewhat over the last year. Uh but the military has only been able to retake small parts of the land that it has lost. Uh and um uh there are significant parts of the the country that it does not control and that will be reflected in where elections can and cannot be held uh when they start next month.
▶ 1:13:52And do you um can I get your assessment on cooperation amongst the various ethnic resistance groups? Are they working well together? Are they fighting with each other? Um
▶ 1:14:04yeah um it's it varies around the country. I would say uh that operation 1027 again was was a sort of critical moment because it demonstrated a really unprecedented degree of collaboration between ethnic arm groups and and Burmese resistance actors. Um prior to that some of the most important ethnic arm groups had not sat on the sidelines but had limited their engagement to to training and support.
▶ 1:14:30uh once they entered the fight uh in in October of 2023, there was uh much more operational collaboration. Uh some of that is at risk though. Uh, China has put significant pressure on ethnic arm groups not to collaborate uh among themselves and with Burmese resistance actors because that is seen as a significant threat to the the regime in Napida um which has um over decades pursued a divide and rule approach that has sought to split communities from from
▶ 1:15:00one another and and China has aided and embedded that over the last year.
▶ 1:15:03Right. And then just in the the last few minutes I have um to Ambassador Curry or or to you Mr. Ross, um, how can we best engage and support the the ASEAN nations in this? And then what would you like Congress to do to, you know, support the resistant groups outside of um, what you've already covered in terms of sanctions and secondary sanctions?
▶ 1:15:26Um, thank you for the question, sir. I think that um as far as supporting the resistance groups, there is plenty of legislation already on the books that would allow the administration to do so. The there are multiple problems. One being that the the um regional bureau that is now responsible for assistance to Burma is not well suited to be um implementing programs in this kind of conflict. also because Burma is one of these same issues.
▶ 1:15:56It's a problem both in the South Central Asia Bureau and the East Asia-Pacific bureau as evidenced by this hearing today. Um but those bureaus are not working together to address the problem. In fact, EAP feels very proprietary about Burma and tends to block out SCA bureau from dealing with it even though they are hosting 1.3 million refugees and are downstream of a lot of the consequences and India plays a very important role here too. So there's a need.
▶ 1:16:23I think the special coordinator or special um if if any situation cries out for some kind of special envoy, it is Burma. And so pushing the administration to appoint someone who can look at the problem holistically and recommend programs, recommend policy, really take ownership in a way and it needs to be a senior level person. Right now the person handling Burma is a DAS.
▶ 1:16:46What would you recommend us um with the ASEAN nations in Southeast? What would you want us to push them to do?
▶ 1:16:52Again, you need someone like this, a senior level diplomat who can focus on Burma, who can go to the Azion ministerials and meet with the ambassadors here in town solely to talk about the issue of Burma because it's like number seven on the list of priorities for EAP and ECA.
▶ 1:17:09So, asking for a special envoy would be something that you'd recommend Congress um push for
▶ 1:17:13continually. Yes.
▶ 1:17:17Great. Thank you very much. I believe that is something that we've been pushing for and have that special envoy in place to specifically serve and pay attention to what's going on in Burma and that should be elevated to the ambassadorial level as you mentioned. So I wholeheartedly agree with that. I believe that is covered in the Burma act which we are working on. So thank you.
▶ 1:17:41I now recognize the gentleman from Guam, Representative Molan for your five minutes of questioning. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, and yes, I'd like appreciate this hearing today and hearing what you folks have to say. It's really a poor situation that we are in. And you know, I recall just reading the economics or economist article just in June where it talks about the same thing that you've been discussing. You know, they start with an earthquake. Uh, almost 4,000 people died and then what happens next?
▶ 1:18:12uh the military coup in 2021, 10,000 civilians uh passed away there and then the US estimates that there's three million that have been displaced and 2 million in the blink of a famine and all this made uh now as a hub of lawlessness in Asia where we've got illicit drug production, we have human trafficking and we have this huge scam industry booming.
▶ 1:18:36we need to do something different and I like what I hear from the recommendations that you have and where we're going with this committee. Uh but with these issues, of course, the only one that seems to be happy here is the People's Republic of China, right? And they enjoy conflict and they come in saying, "Uh, we want to negotiate peace and trying to make a western fear of mongering and China says it can otherwise they'll bully they'll bully them.
▶ 1:19:04China says they can restrict electricity, water, internet access, goods, and and a whole bunch more. So, it's a threat to be a to to be peaceful. What a what a joke. And in the recent state authorization act from this committee, I included an amendment that looks at promoting smart investment strategies, as you were discussing, to countries that receive aid from us.
▶ 1:19:30And no doubt the famine, disasters, and census killings should be approached from an international cooperation. And I appreciate what you're trying to do to make that happen. These efforts deserve their due attention and funding. But if myar and the United State Army refuse to cooperate with the United States while giving preference to China, I believe our aid should reflect their careless decision. And this is about putting the people before power.
▶ 1:20:01So, Ambassador thank you for your long career and doing what you do and still wanting to continue and your expertise in this is very helpful for us to understand. So your role in the Burma transition initiative, what do you see Myramar going from its current situation and what meaningful offence and I have heard some that you'd like to expand upon will give us some stability from this chaos?
▶ 1:20:33Um thank you sir for that that question. Um, look, Burma is his Yeah, I've been I started out as a congressional staffer 30 years ago, working on Burma, as I was telling Chairwoman Kim. Um, and and so many things that I dealt with 30 years ago are still problems today, and the United Was State Army is one of them. They've only grown more powerful, wealthier, and more influential.
▶ 1:21:00um we we have sanctioned them for decades and because we refused to to address the root cause of the problem which is again in Kuning and Beijing and the people's republic of China the decisive enablers of this conflict just as they are in the conflict in Ukraine. Um we they they will continue to be able to be a scourge on the people of Burma and the region as one of the world's largest largest drug producers. they are to Asia what the cartels in Mexico are to the western hemisphere.
▶ 1:21:30I I need to make people understand that it is really a huge problem. We need to we Singapore continues to host their leadership and allow them to buy property there. Um Thailand continues to to give them citizenship. The People's Republic of China especially continues to host their businesses and their wealth. We need to put secondary sanctions in place that that really try to squeeze them and really empower the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Treasury Department to go after their assets.
▶ 1:21:58They have billions of dollars in assets. They can be targeted more effectively. Um we as far as um some of the other things that I think we can do um peace will only come to Burma when the people of that country are allowed to to drive their own future without the interference of their big neighbor China and without the military creating the the enabling environment for conflict that they have created since um
▶ 1:22:28independence in that country for the past 80 years. So it is imperative that the military be driven out of power that there is no other way and the people are doing it themselves. This is a DIY revolution. They get no support from anybody but they're fighting and they're you know they're they're winning without any help from us or anybody else. And so the we we should stop helping their adversaries as a at a minimum.
▶ 1:22:54like let's just stop helping their adversaries and they can they can do this and then let them have the political space to solve their own
▶ 1:23:03Thank you so much. I ran out of time but I appreciate the comments. Madam Chair, I yield back.
▶ 1:23:08Thank you. I now recognize the general lady from Washington, Representative Jaipar for your five minutes of
▶ 1:23:16Thank you so much, Madam Chair, for holding what I think is a really important and informative hearing. Thank you very much to our to our witnesses. is I think we're all concerned about the plight of the millions harmed by the military huta in Burma and um the many others including especially the Rohinda who have fled to all these neighboring countries and I think as I've been listening to the three of you I'm reminded again about the importance of all the tools in our toolbox and I know this hearing is
▶ 1:23:46titled uh America's limited options I think we actually have more options in front of us than perhaps um we are recognizing and I'm I'm reminded in my 10 years of development work uh across the world, including in South and Southeast Asia, the three-legged stool was always security, humanitarian assistance, and development assistance. And I think that that is still relevant here.
▶ 1:24:12Um I wanted to talk about China first because I think both uh Mr. Ross and Ambassador Curry, you've both spoken about this and I think it's critically important. Um, given China's demonstrated interest in keeping the military huta in power, can you just briefly discuss why that is actually a reason for clear and consistent US engagement in Burma?
▶ 1:24:41Because I think there's a constant discussion in the United States about whether something is in the American interest. to me you both have laid out a very clear case for why it is in our interest um to engage on this issue. So maybe if you can briefly speak to this. I know Mr. Ross you recently authored an article about this topic as well.
▶ 1:25:00Sure I can start. Thank you for the question. Um I think uh clear and consistent is is a really important factor here. Um since the coup I think uh expectations have been raised about what the role the US and other international actors can and and will be in Myanmar. Uh there are significant authorities that exist uh particularly under the Burma Act and under the executive order that came out after the coup.
▶ 1:25:27uh but those have not been fully implemented to the extent possible and that both created expectations among the population in Myanmar about what role the US would play and provided a pretext for China to become more involved and and more fully back uh the uh the Myanmar military. Uh so I think being clear and consistent is is an important throughine for US policy on on Myanmar.
▶ 1:25:52Um, I would add just a a degree of nuance on on China, which is that um the relationship between the Myanmar military and and China is is a somewhat uncomfortable one. Um, China does not like Minong Lang and uh they are hoping that these elections create an alternate source of power that they can back instead of him. Um, I don't necessarily think that things will play out in that way.
▶ 1:26:16Uh, I think Minong Lang wants to hold on to both the commander-in-chief role and um the the presidency and if that plays out in that way, it's possible that the the pendulum of Chinese support for the military regime will um will shift back in in a different direction.
▶ 1:26:33Um but but more broadly uh you know I think that um engaging clearly consistently finding ways uh to support uh the the the various democratic and resistance actors um that have the support of the people in Myanmar uh and are building up grassroots governance structures that that will be a model for for going forward uh is uh a way to go for for US policy. Anything you want to quickly add, ambassador?
▶ 1:27:03Yes. Yes, ma'am. Um, I would agree with what Steve says. I do think that the the people themselves, again, like I said, this is DIY revolution. They are doing it on the ground, too. It's not just the arm struggle. It's also the governance structures they're building up. It's also the interthnic um dialogues that are happening. They are painful, sometimes very ugly, sometimes very foolish, but they are happening in a way that has never happened before in the history of this country. And this is extremely healthy and important.
▶ 1:27:29It's costing us nothing for these things to happen, but we can support them in some important ways. We did cut off some critical support that I think should come back. Um, I think we also need to think about Thailand with the long border with Burma and our relationship with Thailand. They are our oldest security ally.
▶ 1:27:46Ambassador, I'm so sorry. I want to get in a question for for Miss Kareem before we before my time runs out. So, I want to quickly I'm the top Democrat, the ranking member on the immigration subcommittee, and refugee resettlement has long been a bipartisan uh issue and a tool in our foreign assistance toolbox. And I know that um you were resettled in the United States, but due to this current administration's very restrictive immigration policies, it would be almost impossible for you to resettle.
▶ 1:28:15Can you uh talk about your experience resettling and also why it's so important for us to keep that refugee resettlement program strong?
▶ 1:28:24Sorry, I see there's not even a second. So um
▶ 1:28:27hopefully the chairwoman will just indulge your answer.
▶ 1:28:30Yeah. Um thank you for the question. I think um as you can see I'm one of the many examples and and I also want to acknowledge this. Uh the resettlement program is one of the many solutions that we need. As I did mention, the ultimate goal for us is to return back to home when it is safe to do so. And it is not that there's no condition or situation for us right now and for refugees in Kakabaz to go back. However, given the as you have heard from three of us, given the current situations in the camps in Bangladesh and in and across the region is in Asian Pacific countries.
▶ 1:28:59It is very important to continue bringing refugees to to these countries. A country that care about the human rights. um a country that gives identity to refugees and a country that allows me to call to call a place home uh that I was never able to call a home for my entire life and that actually allows me to continue advocating for millions of people who are left behind. Thank you.
▶ 1:29:19So beautiful. Thank you. We're so fortunate to have you in this country. Appreciate your indulgence.
▶ 1:29:23Of course. Thank you very much. I now recognize the gentleman from Indiana, Representative Shereev, for your questioning. Uh thank you and I thank uh our subcommittee chairs and ranking members for convening this hearing. Uh this is a subject that matters to all of us in representative government because we have victims of this uh fast growing crime in all of our districts.
▶ 1:29:50Um, but this is of particular importance to some of us that have large communities of Burmese citizens in our home states and districts. I represent uh uh a district in Indiana. Indiana is the home to uh Burmese. We've got about a quarter of the uh population uh in the US in our state.
▶ 1:30:16Uh, and of course I have victims across my district as well. And this is a crime wave with victims on both ends. We recognize that we've got victims of scams and then we have human trafficking victims on the other end of this very uh sad proposition. And as you noted, this is at its core rooted in moneyaundering. And so we've got the victims of the the drug trade.
▶ 1:30:50Mr. Ross noted that annual revenues uh approached 10 billion. But I think we recognize that this crime wave is so under reportported, so difficult to track. Uh, our office thinks that it may be a $15 billion a year problem today and sure to be much larger next year and the following year. And we've got so much work to do to get our arms around this problem.
▶ 1:31:18Uh, these scam centers represent a national security threat and a humanitarian crisis. Uh, Ambassador Curry and Mr. Ross, given our need to better understand what occurs inside these closed off scam compounds and considering that there's no formal process for collecting information from freed victims when they gain their freedom, if they gain their freedom, should a structured process be established to gather and analyze
▶ 1:31:49their accounts so we can learn from this. I I think that's a wonderful idea, Representative Shre. I think that one of the things that Thailand especially can do because most of these people end up in Thailand when they are rescued or flee these scam centers.
▶ 1:32:08Um and Thailand should think about how they can allow whether it's the UN office of drug and crimes or some other or the UN office of um the the international organization for migration to set up a special office in Mesat and Mesa special offices in the Mesa Mesa area where most of these people come across the border um to to collect information. Right now it is very ad hoc.
▶ 1:32:35I worked on a report for the UN on this a few years ago when it was not as well known of a problem in 2021 and even then they were struggling to get their arms around it. Now it's a much bigger problem, much more serious and you do need an inter agency approach here in the United States as well as at the international level.
▶ 1:32:53Thailand is really struggling to deal with it also because of corruption in the Thai um domestic security forces and and some of the other and the reliance on the Thai banking system that these scam centers use and to to launder the money as well. So those are things that we really need to work with Thailand on. Thank you.
▶ 1:33:15I would echo Ambassador Curry that I think Thailand is really key both as a conduit for people being trafficked into Myanmar and for people fleeing from the scam centers or being allowed to leave from them. Um uh at present, as I understand it, um when people leave from scam centers into Thailand, it is the responsibility of their country to repatriate them to that country.
▶ 1:33:38Uh, so you have a very ad hoc process of people from dozens of countries, some of whom don't have diplomatic presence in Thailand trying to figure out how to get their citizens back. Um, and uh, in the case of China, um, the Chinese nationals who are uh, fleeing from the scam centers or leaving the scam centers uh, and going back to to China uh, are being taken back on on Chinese flights without any investigative process.
▶ 1:34:06So, it's a a black box for for the US and for everyone outside of of China as to the information that those individuals have. Um, another key uh aspect of this is uh is safe houses for those who are leaving or trying to leave from from scam centers. Uh, and that in and of itself could be a useful uh information and intelligence gathering source.
▶ 1:34:29If I if I can add on that point, right now ethnic armed groups from Burma, some of the Kuren National Union in particular are providing safe houses for scam trafficking victims themselves and doing this um because these people end up in their territory and then they help help them get repatriated. It is it is a kind of crazy situation.
▶ 1:34:50I I thank you both. My time has expired.
▶ 1:34:52Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Representative Castro, for your lines of questioning.
▶ 1:34:58Thank you. and thank you all for your testimony today. Ambassador Curry, you served as ambassador at large for global women's issues in the first Trump administration and in testimony to the Congress in 2020. You lauded the successes of the Women Peace and Security Act of 2017, bipartisan legislation enacted during the first Trump administration to, as you said then, quote, recognize the importance of women's meaningful participation in global security and peace efforts unquote.
▶ 1:35:26Recently, you echoed the same sentiments by warning that women are often invited into peace processes as an afterthought instead of as central political actors. And you played an important role in the initial implementation of this landmark law. And by all accounts, this was an important bipartisan effort during the first Trump administration and also part of your legacy. Um, so can you speak to how important this landmark legislation is, including in the context of Burma?
▶ 1:35:56I'll try to be brief, but this is a topic close to my heart because I came into the women peace and security universe as it is from Burma um by working with Burmese women in Thailand who had fled the regime in the in the 1980s and were forming women's organizations to stand up for um for peace and and to get engaged in peace processes and um to fight against the military regime through primarily non-violent means.
▶ 1:36:23Um so I have a long history of working with these women and they really introduced the whole concept of women peace and security to me. So this is very close to my heart. Unfortunately um and I you know when I was at US UN I would say I would find myself in meetings and and pointing out that you cannot solve problems created by men with guns by turning to men with guns for the solution. That is not how any of this is ever going to work. And so I think that we need to be mindful of that.
▶ 1:36:52Um and and that there are there continue to be very incredible women like Lucky Karim who are involved in this struggle today and are leading it in ways um including on the battlefield um from the the the people's defense forces and the ethnic armed organizations that are fighting against the regime.
▶ 1:37:11There are many um many strong women on the battlefield, many strong women keeping communities safe and and and alive inside Burma and on the border and and they they deserve our attention and our support. Thank you.
▶ 1:37:24Yeah. And let me just ask a followup on that. You know, a critical component of the legislation is the annual report describing implementation of the law. And for the first time, the administration has failed to submit that report to Congress, which was due on October 31st. The bill requires specialized training for US diplomatic and development professionals on the role of women in peace processes. As far as we can tell, no such training has occurred this year.
▶ 1:37:52and they've imple they've eliminated key positions with implementing this law including at the office of global women's issues which you led during the first Trump administration and closed down the whole Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations which housed the negotiation support unit which supported the role of women in peace processes. Key foreign assistance programs supporting the law have been terminated with no explanation or transparency.
▶ 1:38:18There's little to no remaining women peace and security expertise at the State Department, USAD and DHS, three of the four agencies responsible for implementing the law. For the fourth, the Department of Defense, we understand that they're requesting that Congress repeal parts of the law to eliminate requirements that they conduct training for their officers. So, I wanted to ask you, uh, are you at all concerned that the administration has turned its back on this important bipartisan legislation that you had a big part in shaping?
▶ 1:38:48Uh, not just me, but former Congressman Mike Waltz, who was the co-chair of the women, peace, and security caucus in the Congress when he was here. Um, I think this is a huge mistake, and I have spoken about this. Um, I am working with other conservative women who support the Women Peace and Security Act, including women who have served this nation faithfully and well, and um, it is it is a foolish and short-sighted thing that is happening.
▶ 1:39:13Um, I hope that the administration will recognize that the the the President Trump did the right thing signing the Women Peace and Security Act in 2017 during his first term and supporting this strongly from the White House and that that it is important not just for our domestic um armed forces but also our our position in the world and our security globally. Thank you.
▶ 1:39:37Thank you. And I have one last question and for Miss Karum, you the answer may have to come for the record uh because I'm running out of time, but I want to ask you. Rohhinga advocates and UN investigators have documented how Facebook and other US social media based platforms or US-based social media platforms were used in Burma to spread hate speech and help organize attacks on Rohingya. In your view, in your view, have those companies done enough since 2017 to ensure their platforms are not again used to incite violence against your community?
▶ 1:40:07Um, as
▶ 1:40:08we'll take it for the record because just because we wrote unless
▶ 1:40:10I will allow about 30 seconds to answer. If not, uh you're free to uh submit your response in writing. Your choice. Submit in writing. Okay. Thank you. Let me now recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Representative Kaine, for your five minutes of questioning. Thank you uh Madame Chair and I want to thank our distinguished witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:40:37As we evaluate the ongoing crisis in Burma, we must ensure that the US continues to advocate for justice for the Burmese people. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today regarding opportunities to address a refugee crisis and ensure that religious freedom is protected. Um, Ambassador Curry, a report from the United Nations in June of this year noted that the military in Burma is is repressing the entry of aid into the country, noting that humanitarian workers have been physically blocked at checkpoints.
▶ 1:41:08What are the most effective means to ensure that aid is received by those like the Mohinga need it the most? Um very briefly sir um working through crossber organizations including with ethnic health systems ethnic um educational systems and there is a long history of US support for crossber assistance um from Thailand also working with India to help get crossber assistance
▶ 1:41:38across the India Burma border and we are seeing increased cooperation between India Bangladesh and actors in Rakine Again, some of these folks are not not people I would choose to cooperate with, but they are facilitating some aid into areas that have long been blocked.
▶ 1:41:57The regime consistently blocks any humanitarian assistance from uh going to areas outside of its control and it instrumentalizes what humanitarian assistance flows through its um channels. and we have I have long recommended not providing any humanitarian assistance through regime controlled channels because it only benefits them.
▶ 1:42:21Thank you. Um Mr. Ross, how do you believe that sanctions and other economic actions in the US government can be used to strategically to pressure the HUTA to protect the rights of all Burmese civilians?
▶ 1:42:36Thank you for the question. Um, as I I said earlier, I think that there has been a an incremental approach to sanctions over the last almost five years. And uh, I'd say a much heavier focus on the imposition of sanctions than the enforcement or coordination of sanctions.
▶ 1:42:52Um, so certainly I think there is some additional benefit from continuing to look at actors that are benefiting from the drugs trade, from scam centers, um, that are supplying weapons to the military and looking at those actors. But there's also a lot on the table uh, that is ripe for further enforcement and coordination inter agency and also with uh, with other allies and partners.
▶ 1:43:16And and as a followup, uh Burma has increasingly aligned itself militarily with China and with Russia through armaments and training respectively. How do you believe that these Burmese alliances will impact America's allies in the
▶ 1:43:32Sure. Um yeah, I think that the um arms flows from China and Russia uh and to a lesser extent others in the region um have an impact on stability within Myanmar and then have a spillover effect elsewhere in the region.
▶ 1:43:49Um so the outflow of refugees, the impact of um of disease that is not confined to borders, um all of those things are uh are followon impacts of the arm support that's being provided by China and Russia to the regime that enables it to continue to um to wage war against the Myanmar people.
▶ 1:44:10Thank you. Uh, Miss Karum, uh, can you please share what actions from the United States and other members of the international community have been the most impactful in addressing the plight of the Rohhinga in Burma?
▶ 1:44:24Thank you for the question. Um, the international community members in the United States um, have done a lot already. I think I would also want to mention for the last two and a half years because of the competing priorities in the world um the we have lost the attention uh the level of support and attention from the international community members and I would like to call on them to continue engaging on these issues and to work to to make sure that the issues are being addressed um timely.
▶ 1:44:54the United States could do much more including providing funding to the marsh needed programs on the ground but also um working with the host government including Bangladesh to allow refugees to walk within the camps. Um these are for the short and medium-term solution that we need but for the long term to facilitate the sustainable dignified and safe return for those who are still in the camps back to our homeland in Burma. Thank
▶ 1:45:19Uh thank you and I yield back my time.
▶ 1:45:22Thank you. Let me now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Representative
▶ 1:45:26Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh I want to explore you. You have painted a picture of basically Burma being fractured. Uh I want to explore the idea that uh are they becoming a client state of China for a couple of reasons.
▶ 1:45:41the belt and road initiatives and the Kalpu deepwater port and the China Myanmar pipelines uh because it looks to me as though this gives a strategic advantage to China to China by allowing them to bypass the straight of Malaa. So first of all let's start with that ambassador.
▶ 1:46:07Uh yes sir. Um, China sees Burma as their gateway to the Indian Ocean. They, this has been a plan that has been in place for some time now. Jock Pew is existential for China. That port and those pipelines are critical infrastructure for them. They will do whatever it takes to preserve those and they are doing whatever it takes right now to preserve their access that and and for precisely the reasons that you state.
▶ 1:46:32Um the biggest threat to that right now is the ascent of the Aracon army in Rakine state where Jog Pew is located. And so one of the reasons that the Chinese have become more of a decisive enabler of the regime's war and are trying to shut down some of the problems in other areas of the country are to allow the Burma army to target its resources on the areas that China that are most critical to China.
▶ 1:46:59And right now you have Chinese armed forces, police and armed forces operating inside Burmese territory to protect critical infrastructure for the Chinese. This is unprecedented in the history of Burma. As Steve said, as Mr. Ross said, the Burma military hates the Chinese because they have a long history of enmity. But the and the fact that men online has allowed China to become so influential in that country is a sign of his desperation and weakness.
▶ 1:47:29But China is fully taking advantage of all of it. Um and this if you go back to 2010 when and and 20 27 or 2007 and 2008 when the regime started to experiment with openness, the reason they did that was because they were becoming too dependent on China for their own comfort. that was a key driver of the 2010 elections and the openness and the liber the freeing of Angansuchi and all of those things that happened after 2007.
▶ 1:47:58They are now so desperate to hold on to power men specifically but also the the senior people around him that they have allowed China to come in in a way that they have never done before.
▶ 1:48:09Mr. Ross.
▶ 1:48:12Yeah, I I agree with uh Ambassador Curry. Um I think that uh what China has pursued in Myanmar is enough stability such that it can advance its geostrategic and economic interests through these mega infrastructure pro projects but not so much stability that it can't wield leverage over all stakeholders involved. And right now it has uh a lot of leverage over both the the regime and of the ethnic arm groups that are operating on the the China Myanmar border.
▶ 1:48:43uh and uh it's it's positioned itself extremely well and at great risk to to US interests.
▶ 1:48:50Uh so I I see that South Korea, India, Myanmar of course and China are all involved in the pipeline project. Is there a is there a leverage there by the US on particularly the South Korea and India companies? Ambassador?
▶ 1:49:06Yes sir. POSCO, which is the South Korean company. We um have quietly tried to shut this down and have engaged with the South Koreans um about this problem and tried to get them to withdraw. I think they've reduced their footprint in Burma substantially since 2021, but um they continue to provide critical support.
▶ 1:49:28other countries that are our allies in the region also continue to um to provide partic or participate in the legal economy in Burma and provide meaningful support to the regime through that. Uh India is is a major one. India has tried to play the China game of playing both sides. They're just not flexible enough to do it and don't have the strategic depth that China does to pull it off.
▶ 1:49:52Um but we would we the the answer there right now the short term is to encourage India to try to diversify their relationships and not be solely dependent on the regime for engaging in Burma and protecting their security interests which they which they do have genuine security problems coming out of Burma. Thank you. It looks to me like if we could put pressure on the South Korea and India for instance because they provide legitimate cover for China in Burma in the pipeline.
▶ 1:50:23So if we could remove all other international presence I think it would make it more directly apparent that this is a strategic uh defensive move defense move. With that, Madam Chair, I yield
▶ 1:50:38Thank you very much. [clears throat] We have few more minutes. So I would like to go for a second round of questioning and I would like to continue on the conversation that my uh ranking member Ami Barber raised regarding the ACSEAN's role.
▶ 1:50:52ASEAN's fivepoint consensus that calls for seizing violence, facilitating dialogue and providing humanitarian raid I mean aid remains the block's official position but we've seen little progress on So, is the five-point consensus still a viable framework or has it become an obstacle to more concrete action? Can you address that? Uh, Ambassador Curry and maybe Mr. Raj, you can address that
▶ 1:51:22The short answer is no. It's not viable. It wasn't viable from the minute the ink was dry on it because Burma basically violated the Burma army basically violated it from the get-go. Um, and yes, it does need to be replaced with something else. Um I think that the there is a big divide within Azion. The countries that can be influenced by China such as Cambodia and Lao continue to block a consensus.
▶ 1:51:46Other countries that are downstream of problems, Thailand um and Malaysia particularly have have been a little waffly but have tried to to do more. Um but Azon itself is quite divided. We have allowed ourselves to be held captive by the five-point consensus and allowed it to be the driver of US policy on Burma, which is a mistake. We should have our own policy. We should not be downstream of Azon's dysfunction.
▶ 1:52:11Um, but we should work with Azon to try to to strengthen their hand in this regard and create pathways for at least individual members of Azan that want to do something different to do that and provide diplomatic engagement with them in ways whether it's with Indonesia and Malaysia or rethinking our approach to Thailand on Burma um and our approach to Thailand overall which enables this kind of squishy policy that doesn't it's really more of a nonpolicy than a policy. policy.
▶ 1:52:41Thank you.
▶ 1:52:42Can just supplement ambassador's response with um maybe you can talk about how the US can be more effective in providing the regional response and I appreciate ambassador's response.
▶ 1:52:55Sure. Um and just to add that the fivepoint consensus I would say is is the least common denominator. It's it's the the baseline the foundation for what everyone could agree to. although um since it was agreed um I think it it has not been effectively implemented and I think Azion admits that um one of the challenges I think is the the turnover in uh in Azan focus on Myanmar every year there's a new special envoy that that's appointed by the
▶ 1:53:25Azan chair um the Philippines the incoming chair has just appointed its new special envoy and that prevents a coherent and strategic and long-term approach that's needed to a challenge that is is not going to be resolved in in a one-year time timeline.
▶ 1:53:40Um so I think uh for the US it's uh encouraging Azon to um to take on this in a in a way that um recognizes the the long-term nature of the challenge um and that that Azion needs significant support uh as a block to be able to effectively address the challenges that Myanmar is facing and the impacts that it's having on on the region.
▶ 1:54:05Um I would just conclude by saying that um I agree with Ambassador Curry on the um the divides within Azan particularly between mainland and maritime Southeast Asia and uh the structural impediments of Azan's um principles of consensus and non-inference to uh to them playing a a more significant and more constructive role in in uh realizing a political
▶ 1:54:32Thank you. Uh I will turn it over to ranking member Bara for your questions.
▶ 1:54:37Thank you madam chairwoman. Um pastor curry you touched on something that um in terms of the tenuous relationship between the honta and China. Um are there again the honta does seem to align with China right now for survival sake. Um but that's also again a tenuous relationship.
▶ 1:54:59Are there things that we should be thinking about strategically in terms of either exploiting that um that uncomfortable relationship or you and we can also follow that up offline as as well. But
▶ 1:55:17well, one of the things that we could do that um and and I'll go back to uh Chairwoman Kim here. We have lost one of our best tools for highlighting how problematic this is for the Burmese people by shutting down Radio Free Asia and its broadcast into Burma.
▶ 1:55:33Um, one of the main sources of information we were getting about the predations of Chinese industry and Chinese stateowned businesses and and problems arising out of these pipelines and these port projects, whether it's, you know, trafficking or or other huge problems that have come about as a result of these these um Chinese investments in Burma is from Radio Free Asia, also from human rights organizations that report on the situation in Shaun state or in Kachen State where mining projects by Chinese stateowned
▶ 1:56:03enterprises and and Chinese companies are having a devastating effect on the local communities. Reporting on those things comes from Radio Free Asia and from human rights organizations operating on the ground, often with US government support, very quiet, very small but important support.
▶ 1:56:20And so cutting off that nexus has blinded us um and also taken away a major vector of information to the Burmese people about the problems of this collaboration between the Huna and the People's Republic of China.
▶ 1:56:35I couldn't agree with you more. I mean it is um one of the best vehicles we have in terms of making sure the people of um Burma understand what's happening in in this relationship. Let me just ask a another quick follow-up question. Um, you talked about one of the challenges within ASEAN is as leadership turns over new envoys, etc. You know, at the start of this conflict, you know, I think there was probably a hope that it wouldn't be a long-term conflict.
▶ 1:57:04I think we have to think about it differently now that, you know, this isn't going to wrap up in in a year. what does um a longer term engagement you know whether you know we have our special envoy whether it's through the United Nations and and and ASAN folks that can work on this um over a longer period and then also can imagine what happens postconlict would that be the right way for us to start thinking about this not as a short-term thing but long-term end the conflict find the ceasefire what's
▶ 1:57:34the path forward
▶ 1:57:37I can start on that thanks for the question. Um I would say that um since the the coup in 2021 um we've had a bit of a peacemail approach in terms of US strategy and I think that a um uh a really thorough look at what US policy and strategy towards Myanmar should be is is necessary. I understand there's a a policy review underway in the State Department.
▶ 1:58:04Um uh but but that is something that I think has been lacking for the last four plus years and uh would serve US interests well uh to to to be able to develop something that is more coherent and strategic over the the medium term
▶ 1:58:18and we should do that in concert with our ASEAN partners.
▶ 1:58:23Uh yes.
▶ 1:58:25Great. with that.
▶ 1:58:26If I can answer, Burma policy has been under review since the administration came in and during the during the Biden administration that there was it was completely a drift. I you were you were being too diplomatic. I think Mr. Ross in calling it incoherent. It was a drift. It we co-opted to the the least common denominator of the five-point consensus and and took some peacemeal actions. Um I think that there is there are things we can do lowcost solutions.
▶ 1:58:55We do need to the review is important, but it's not going to matter if we've lost all of the tools or eviscerated all of the tools we have to actually implement a coherent policy. And then I would also add that again I talk about Thailand a lot when it comes to Burma because for decades now, for some time now, we have not had a Burma policy to speak of.
▶ 1:59:15We have a Thailand policy that consists of doing whatever it will keep us in good standing with the most regressive elements of the Thai leadership. Thailand is changing. We need to rethink our strategy on Thailand and then think about our strategy on Burma in in a partnership with that strategy on Thailand and how those two things lock together for success. Thank
▶ 1:59:41Thank you.
▶ 1:59:44Very good point. um represing for your questions.
▶ 1:59:51Uh thank you, Madam Chair, and I'm uh going to make a quick statement. I'm going to give you each about a minute and a half. Okay. Um so I'm not trying to be rude, trying to make sure I hit hit it all. I want to hear from all of you. I I couldn't agree with you more, uh Ambassador Curry. Um we need a coherent policy. We got virtually nothing out of the last administration when we would push them, whether it was Blinken in front of us or whether it was uh the administration.
▶ 2:00:18I'm pushing to make sure this administration doesn't make the same mistake. And uh and so they have they've they've got an opportunity. My message to them is seize it. We need to do that. Um uh Miss Kareem, I would like to know from you.
▶ 2:00:33Um we've got a number of these initiatives that have been going on but um I'm curious to know from your view on the ground how has the interim caretaker government's treatment the current uh uh Bangladesh uh government uh how has their treatment of the Rohingya refugees differed from the previous governments.
▶ 2:00:54Thank you Mr. Chairman. Um I think well I I also want to make make it clear that Bangladesh um itself is going through a huge political transition um given that the prime minister Shakasina have been kicked out of the country and the new interim government
▶ 2:01:11um but there to be frankly um we haven't seen any much larger policy change yet since the interim government um in terms of refugee response in the camps but there has been lots of improvement including transportation the very basic grassroot level improvement in the camps. Um but we haven't seen much policy change yet uh from the capital.
▶ 2:01:31So I think um in terms of responding um Bangladesh itself what we would like to see from them and have not seen yet we'd be allowing refugees to walk in the camps and I would echo um Ambassador Curry on this um refugees want to walk of of course and it's not only
▶ 2:01:47be self-sufficient
▶ 2:01:48uh in the camps to help their families. Yeah, correct. And it will also prepare refugees for their return back to home so we don't have to keep coming back and forth to Bangladesh over and over again.
▶ 2:01:57Great. I'm going to stick to my own uh admonition here. Got three minutes. Uh Mr. Ross, uh the October military huta raid on online scam centers in non huta controlled eastern Burma. It seized Starlink satellite devices. What does the operation reveal about the Huta's relationship with scam operations? Is it genuinely cracking down or selectively targeting operations outside its control while protecting those that benefit the
▶ 2:02:23Thank you for the question. Um, I think this is purely a performative act. Um the Myanmar military and the border guard forces that control the areas where the scam centers um are operated from are uh very closely intertwined and um there are um strong personal linkages, financial linkages um that that extend quite quite deep uh on both sides.
▶ 2:02:48Um so uh the intent behind this I think I think we need to link it to the elections. It's it's an effort by the military to um and its allies and the border guard forces uh to give the impression that it is cracking down ahead of elections uh but without the the substance behind it to to actually demonstrate that it is cracking down.
▶ 2:03:11Um, so, uh, that there's a a new crackdown that's that's been happening this week against one of the other scam centers called Koko. And, uh, information, uh, in the public domain suggests that, um, several, uh, thousand people were notified in advance that this crackdown would happen. Um, so the
▶ 2:03:30very effective way to do a raid, right? leadership was able to flee um and perhaps you know evidence materials other things that would be of interest uh or squirreled away to other scam centers that continue to operate. Uh so it's a it's a purely performative measure. Um again the the areas where these scams are taking place are intricately linked to the the military itself. Um and uh and and operate with the the acquiescence of of the military.
▶ 2:03:57Ambassador Curry, do you agree? And what can we do to encourage or actually verify that those crackdowns are effective?
▶ 2:04:06Um, well, there's not a lot we can do uh inside Burma to do that because the regime is, as I 100% agree with everything that Mr. Ross said about the performative nature of these. Um, they do this with drug Caesars, too, where it's Kabuki theater. They warm the kingpins in advance and the important people are are gone. there's always a scapegoat of people who are arrested and drugs that are burned and and and in this case things that are seized, but it's always very performative. Um I think that again money, it's about money.
▶ 2:04:35We've got to find better ways to cut off the flows of financing in and out of these regimes and in and out of these um scam centers. That's that's the key. Treasury needs to have a dedicated set of resources to this problem and really like put some people on it and do it immediately. It's costing Americans money and lives and and we and it's enabling um a whole ecosystem of criminality that's endangering us, our allies, and and the future of Burma.
▶ 2:05:05Thank you.
▶ 2:05:06With that, Madam Chair, I yield back and thank you very much again to all three of you.
▶ 2:05:11With that, I also want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today and providing wonderful, wonderful, and very powerful testimony. I know the uh intent of our fearing uh hearing was to eliminate the prominent source of uh regional instability and talk about ways that we can't uh come up with some foreign policy opportunity for the United States uh through the uh Q&A sessions. I think we were able to glean a lot of those uh opportunities.
▶ 2:05:40So, we're going to continue to have this com conversation with you. uh and I want to thank all of the members that participated in this uh session and the members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for you. So we'll ask you to uh respond to those in writing. So pursuant to our committee roles, all members may have five days to submit statements, questions, extraneous materials for the records subject to the length limitation.
▶ 2:06:09So without objection this committee now stands adjourned.