▶ 0:11:20The subcommittee on water, wildlife and fisheries will come to order. I would like to apologize for the temperature in here. Hopefully it will warm up as we proceed with our hearing today. If not, maybe we'll have to go out in the hallway and start dragging people in here to get the body heat, but hopefully we won't have to resort to that. Good morning everyone. I want to welcome members, witnesses and our guests in the audience of today's hearing.
▶ 0:11:47Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time under rule four f any oral opening statements at hearings are limited to the chair and the ranking member. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other members opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with committee rule three. Oh, without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the congressman from washington, Mr.
▶ 0:12:16Bumgardner, be allowed to participate in today's hearing. Without objection. So ordered. We are here today to hold an oversight hearing titled sea lion predation in the pacific northwest. I now recognize myself for a five minute opening statement this morning. The subcommittee committee will examine an issue that has only become more challenging in recent years.
▶ 0:12:42Pinniped predation on threatened and endangered salmon and steelhead in the conflicting requirements of the marine mammal protection act and the endangered species act. Pinniped refers to a category of marine mammal, including california sea lions, steller sea lions, and harbor seals, among others.
▶ 0:13:01In the decades since the enactment of the marine mammal protection act, pinniped populations have exploded and they are dominating ecosystems across the pacific northwest and devastating salmon and steelhead populations listed under the endangered species act. The national marine fisheries service has found on repeated occasions over the last two decades, that pinniped predation is a leading factor in preventing the recovery of these salmon species.
▶ 0:13:29One study found that found that by 2015, across the pacific coast, pinnipeds consumed six times the amount of chinook salmon that were captured through commercial and recreational fishing combined. The imbalance between unchecked pinniped populations and their threatened and endangered prey causes significant challenges throughout the pacific northwest.
▶ 0:13:56In today's hearing, we will hear the perspective of tribes that bear the impacts and have led on pinniped management to address this issue in the columbia river. Congress enacted bipartisan legislation in 2018 authorizing the secretary of commerce to permit the columbia river tribes and states of washington, idaho, and oregon to conduct lethal take of pinnipeds based on their location in the columbia river.
▶ 0:14:24Today's hearing provides us with an opportunity to examine the laws effectiveness and explore additional solutions to restore the balance between salmon and pinnipeds. The subcommittee is joined today by asia dakotah, the executive director of the columbia river inter-tribal fish commission, who will talk about the columbia river tribes experience and implementation of the 2018 statute, the effectiveness of legal take as a management tool to improve salmon abundance, and the
▶ 0:14:55Considerable resources that our tribes and tribal organizations have devoted to recovering salmon populations. Tribes outside of the columbia river basin have also dealt with this issue, from the oregon coast to the puget sound in washington. I'd like to thank chairman ed johnstone of the northwest indian fisheries commission and chairman ken choke of the nisqually indian tribe, for joining us today to share their perspectives. Thank you both for being here.
▶ 0:15:23It is my hope that today's hearing gives us an opportunity to reflect on lessons learned from previous efforts, so that we can craft solutions that effectively bring pinnipeds under control and facilitate the growth of healthy, sustainable salmon and steelhead populations. With that, I want to thank the witnesses for traveling to washington to be here and their members for their interest in this very important issue.
▶ 0:15:49I now recognize ranking member hoyle for her opening statements. >> thank you, madam chair. Good morning, and thank you so much for for being here today. This is a very, very important issue, especially representing the pacific northwest. We're going to discuss the impacts of sea lion predation on salmon in the pacific northwest. And I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this important issue for my state and this region.
▶ 0:16:18In 2018, congress created a new tool to address the growing problem of sea lions at the willamette falls and bonneville dam. Sea lions were traveling 100 miles upstream and eating a salmon buffet in areas where they had learned that salmon would be concentrated. And why wouldn't they? But the issue is that their natural predators, orcas, do not travel upstream, and so what they have is a buffet and no natural predators.
▶ 0:16:48So ratepayers and the federal government invested billions of dollars to support threatened and endangered salmon. But that work was undermined by sea lions, which were non-native species. And they learned and adopted a behavior that was devastating to our salmon population. At the time, the mpa didn't have the necessary flexibility to allow state and tribal fish and wildlife managers to address this population wide sea lion problem.
▶ 0:17:16Section 120 f of the marine mammal protection act allows the states of washington and oregon, as well as the tribes on the columbia river, to get a permit to manage problematic sea lions at key places along the columbia river and its tributaries. Under this permit, we've seen that targeted management can work at oregon's willamette falls, removing approximately 20 male sea lions from the area. Reduced predation on winter steelhead from 25% to just 1.5%.
▶ 0:17:48This is a success story, and it shows what's possible with adequate resources and scientific monitoring. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses today about the progress they've made using section 120 f authority, the resources they need to build on that success, and how we can keep working together in a bipartisan way to support comprehensive salmon recovery.
▶ 0:18:12Um, now, we can't have this discussion without dealing with the fact that, um, uh, with the massive cuts that would only put salmon in further jeopardy. Um, for instance, the president's proposed budget would eliminate the pacific coastal salmon recovery fund. This is a long standing and widely supported program that helps improve salmon habitat, provide local jobs and revenue, and supports recreation and tourism opportunities across the northwest.
▶ 0:18:40Um, there's also a proposed 40% cut to the national marine fisheries services by um, and the agency has already lost over 500 staff this year. I do strongly support the work being done on the grounds, um, to address sea lion predation. Anyone who's ever talked to me about salmon knows that. Um, but there are many other threats that we also must deal with.
▶ 0:19:07We have to address the habitat challenges, outdated hatchery infrastructure, and climate change in order to truly achieve salmon recovery in the pacific northwest. Thank you again to the witnesses for traveling here today to discuss these critical issues for our region. And I yield back. >> thank you, miss whale. I now recognize chairman westerman for his opening statement. >> good morning, everyone, and thank you, chair hagaman, for holding this hearing.
▶ 0:19:33And I want to thank all the witnesses that have traveled to washington today to talk about this very important subject, which the the topic is a very important one. It's the pinniped. How?
▶ 0:19:45Predation pinniped predation undermines decades of work and billions of dollars spent on recovery of threatened and endangered salmon and steelhead, abundant sea lion and seal populations maintain strict protections under the marine mammal protection act at the expense of listed fish species. In fact, recent studies have found pinniped predation to be a primary driver of increasing mortality rates of salmon and steelhead in the salish sea.
▶ 0:20:15Several years ago, I had the opportunity to visit the nisqually tribe in olympia, washington, and in my visit, I learned about the tribe's salmon recovery and enhancement efforts and toward the clear creek creek hatchery. I learned about how the tribe wanted to get back to a more traditional diet that included more salmon.
▶ 0:20:36And then we took a boat down the river to puget sound, uh, where I saw the seahawk seal haulouts, uh, like the one pictured behind me, uh, right at the mouth of the nisqually and in the flats while on the river, the seals were unbothered by human activity in their vicinity. These congregations create unsafe conditions for fishery managers and the public in the vicinity.
▶ 0:21:02In a 2024 study, uh, it was found that pinnipeds consume up to one third of the steelhead run in the nisqually river. These animals jeopardize food security and undermine the tribe's way of life. There's possibly no starker visual than the trackers from the fish hatchery showing up in the seal scat that littered, uh, throughout the area.
▶ 0:21:24And if I remember the numbers correctly, I think, uh, the tribe told me that about 90% of the trackers they put, uh, in the fish ended up, uh, if they're in the delta in seal scat, which, uh, that I think definitely implies there's a we have a problem, uh, as the nisqually tribe continues to work to enhance salmon survival, uh, due to the mpa, salmon recovery efforts
▶ 0:21:54Feed a growing predator population. Uh, I want to thank chairman choke for joining us today to share his people's story. But the good news is that congress has previously acted on a bipartisan basis to provide tribes in the region with additional management tools to address increasing pinniped populations. The endangered salmon predation prevention act, passed in 2018 and authorized the columbia river tribes in the states of washington, oregon, and idaho to call these nuisance populations.
▶ 0:22:23I want to thank the columbia river inter-tribal fish commission for joining us today to explain how these tools have worked since the enactment. And we know this issue is not limited to the columbia river. Today's hearing gives members a chance to examine how this issue has persisted across the region, and to explore other potential solutions. Uh, with that, madam chair, I once again want to thank our witnesses for being here.
▶ 0:22:47I look forward to a robust discussion and look forward to legislation following after, uh, we have these hearings and I yield back my time. >> thank you, Mr. westerman. The chair now recognizes ranking member huffman for his opening statements. >> thank you, madam chair. I have a unanimous consent request. I'd like to enter into the record. A recent peer reviewed paper titled climate change threatens chinook salmon. Throughout their life cycle.
▶ 0:23:12It is research about increasing sea surface temperatures, changes in river temperatures, altered flow patterns and other things that are impairing smolt survival, which is really the key. Without objection, salmon recovered. Thank you. Um, so good morning, and thank you, madam chair. I want to welcome our witnesses, and I do look forward to hearing from you. Today.
▶ 0:23:37We are discussing the implementation of section 120 of the mpa, which allows lethal removal of sea lions in the columbia river basin to support salmon recovery. Um, and predator management, if you really care about declining salmon populations is, uh, one part of the conversation, but it is certainly not the only part or even the biggest part of what we should be talking about.
▶ 0:24:03For the past few decades, salmon populations have declined sharply because of habitat loss, because of dam construction, droughts, overharvest, uh, all of these factors leading to multiple listings under the endangered species act, the river system has been reshaped by people dams, fish ladders, fish passage bottlenecks, leaving us with very unnatural predator prey interactions that did not exist historically.
▶ 0:24:29And in my district, salmon fishing is a way of life. I care about these things and know all too well about declining salmon populations. California salmon fishing communities have had unprecedented challenges. Three consecutive ocean salmon season closures.
▶ 0:24:46So, madam chair, when you give statistics about, uh, pinnipeds eating dramatically more salmon than fishermen, um, you can play with those numbers, because for the past three years, in places like california, the fleet hasn't been able to catch salmon at all. So it's no surprise that pinnipeds would be eating more than the commercial harvest at the same time.
▶ 0:25:06Uh, we're watching real time recovery of historic salmon run where we did it right where tribes, the state and federal government collaborated on the difficult work of removing klamath dams. And in a short time since, we have seen salmon return to places they haven't been in over a century. It is working. So I'll be frank. I'm glad republicans are finally talking about salmon here in this committee today.
▶ 0:25:31But if killing even more sea lions than we already allow, and I support the targeted science based intervention that we allow right now under current authority. But if that's the only thing you'll do for salmon, you're missing it. And we are still in big trouble here. Recovery of pacific salmon requires habitat recovery and serious partnerships among tribes, states, and the federal government. Republicans have done the opposite.
▶ 0:25:59They've applauded the trump administration for walking away from the columbia basin restoration initiative, a plan that would have delivered more than $1 billion in federal investment over the next decade for wild fish restoration across the basin, and clean energy project for tribes. And on top of that, republicans rescinded ira funding. They would have gone towards salmon and marine mammal research, and they've done nothing to stop doge from wreaking havoc at noaa. I'm glad you're here, Mr.
▶ 0:26:29Roush. We should be having a conversation about the fact that you are now the chief cook and bottle washer at this critical agency, and I'm so sorry that your scientists and your actual salmon recovery funding has been gutted under the watch of this administration, house republicans have put forward a noaa appropriations bill that guts national marine fisheries service by 40% and acts as 44% of noaa's pacific salmon budget. But today, uh, we hear, uh, that they care about salmon.
▶ 0:27:01And I just wonder, who do they think they're kidding? You can't champion salmon recovery while slashing the very programs designed to rebuild habitat, recover, um, river function, and uphold tribal rights. You can't walk away from basin wide restoration agreements and then point to sea lions as the problem, claiming to care about salmon recovery only when you get to kill off another species. Uh, it's not conservation. I don't know what it is, but it's not serious conservation.
▶ 0:27:31My goal today is to hear from our witnesses what is really working and what isn't, and how we can support salmon recovery. It's great to try to avoid extinction, and I do support targeted science based interventions like what the ranking member mentioned at willamette falls, that, uh, is going to be necessary in the short term. But we have to think about recovery. And that's an entirely different and I think, even more urgent conversation.
▶ 0:27:58So I hope today we will ask hard questions, listen to our tribal partners and ground our decisions in data, uh, addressing root causes. Thank you, madam chair. And I yield back. >> I will now introduce our first panel of witnesses. Mr. samuel rourke, the deputy assistant administrator of the national marine fisheries service in washington, D.C. under committee rules, you must limit your oral statement to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record.
▶ 0:28:27To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone and we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I now recognize Mr. rourke for five minutes.
▶ 0:28:47>> good morning, chairwoman hageman, ranking member and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to present views on seal and sea lion predation on at risk, threatened and endangered salmon and steelhead in the pacific northwest, as well as the regulatory impacts of the marine mammal protection act or the mpa. I am sam rourke, deputy assistant administrator for regulatory programs at the national oceanic and atmospheric administration. I worked at noaa since 2003.
▶ 0:29:10In my role as deputy assistant administrator, I oversee noaa fisheries regulatory actions and programs, including those to support the conservation and recovery of marine mammals and endangered species. Thank you for inviting noaa to testify before you today on this matter.
▶ 0:29:27Pending before the subcommittee, noaa is responsible for protecting marine mammal populations along the west coast under the mpa, and for promoting the recovery of many fish, marine mammals, sea turtles, and other species listed as threatened or endangered under the endangered species act or the esa. Noaa recognizes that the predation of seals and sea lions, collectively known as pinnipeds, is having a significant negative impact on the recovery of esa listed salmon and steelhead fishery stocks in certain areas.
▶ 0:29:52The pacific northwest noaa also recognizes that targeted, lethal take of pinnipeds is at times warranted to promote the conservation and recovery of certain stocks of salmonids and other fish. The mpa contains existing provisions for this purpose. Section one and section 120 f. However, as indicated in prior reports and testimonies to congress, this process as currently written, has not been particularly effective at achieving the overall goal of balancing the requirements of the esa and mpa.
▶ 0:30:22Since 1994, noaa has issued 12 authorizations pursuant to section 120 and 120 f of the mpa to intentionally take sea lions. While these permits have helped reduce predation on salmonids at a small scale and in certain areas, they have been ineffective at moving the needle for salmonid recovery coast wide. As it stands, mpa does not currently provide regulatory flexibility to states and tribes to directly and more effectively reduce predation on salmonids by pinnipeds in the pacific northwest.
▶ 0:30:52More broadly, noaa's pleased to report that the mpa has been a highly successful tool in the recovery of most stocks of seals and sea lions along the west coast. For example, california sea lions have increased from an abundance of approximately 10,000 animals in the 1950s to approximately 250,000 animals coast wide today, in contrast to robust west coast seal and sea lion populations, many west coast cell populations are doing poorly.
▶ 0:31:17A 53 distinct population groups of pacific salmonids, 28 are listed as threatened or endangered under the esa. Since 2002, california and steller sea lions have consumed an estimated 98,000 salmonids just at bonneville dam and willamette falls, oregon, which we know represents only a fraction of the total number of salmon as they consume throughout the lower reaches of the columbia and willamette rivers.
▶ 0:31:41Through the 12 authorizations issued under the mpa since 1995, states have removed 514 sea lions for those authorizations were issued to the state of washington at ballard locks, five to the states of oregon, washington, and idaho at bonneville dam, and one was issued to the state of oregon at willamette falls.
▶ 0:32:00In addition to the mpa section 120 authorizations, in 2020, noaa issued an mpa section 120 f permit to the states and to four columbia plateau treaty tribes to intentionally take predatory sea lions in the columbia river basin. On august 22nd, 2025, the national marine fisheries service west coast region issued states and tribes a new mpa, section 120 f permit to continue to remove sea lions in the columbia river basin.
▶ 0:32:27While these removals have likely saved more than 110,000 adult salmonids from sea lion predation since the inception of the pinniped removal program, the overall benefit of the program on salmon recovery in the wider pacific northwest has been limited. Know appreciates being invited to testify before the committee on this issue. We look forward to working further with the committee to achieve the administration's deregulatory priorities, outlined in executive order 14192 unleashing prosperity through deregulation and executive order 14276.
▶ 0:32:59Restoring american seafood competitiveness. By achieving these priorities, we will rebuild fisheries, support the long term sustainability of fishing communities, and come up with solutions regarding this matter. Thank you for your time and I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions you may have. >> thank you, Mr. rourke, and I thank the witness for his testimony. Will now recognize members for five minutes each for questions. I'm going to begin with myself. Um, Mr.
▶ 0:33:23Rothman, your testimony, you state that the california sea lion population across the pacific coast has increased from approximately 10,000 animals in the 1950s to roughly 250,000 today, our pinniped populations in the pacific northwest at sustainable levels. >> thank you for the question. Uh, yes, they are, uh, the california sea lion population is around 260,000, which is within their optimal sustainable population. The standard for a healthy population under the mmp.
▶ 0:33:53Uh, the eastern steller sea lion population is at about 78,000. Also within their optimal sustainable populations. >> so have the 120 f removals threatened the sustainability of pinniped pinniped populations on the west coast? >> we do not believe so. As I indicated, we've only authorized in the hundreds, and there are tens of thousands of the sea lions around the and seals around the west coast.
▶ 0:34:20>> uh, noaa's 2022 five year review for several salmon species along the columbia river noted an overall increase in pinniped predation of pacific salmon and steelhead. How has pinniped predation impacted noaa's efforts to recover the esa listed salmon species? >> pinniped prediction's clearly a factor that is limiting recovery of the salmon stocks. It is not the only factor. There are many factors, but it is one of them.
▶ 0:34:46And we can measure in places like the columbia river, where we have seen improvements in predation predations going down. We've seen increases in salmon runs which have improved their extinction outlook. They are in better shape because of the predation efforts that we've taken. >> well, in terms of the numbers of of pinnipeds that have been killed pursuant to this program, do you think we could increase that number?
▶ 0:35:13>> we look at that number based on, um, a scientific assessment of the potential biological removal, the potential biological removal for california sea lions is about 14,000 a year. And we're at in the hundreds, uh, for eastern steller sea lions, it's about 2000 a year. And we're well below that in terms of what we've authorized to date.
▶ 0:35:33The current 120 f, uh, targeted uh program in the columbia caps the removals at 10% of the potential biological removal rate. So you take the potential biological removal and go down to 10% of that. And that is what congress has authorized to be removed in the columbia. And that's been a successful program. >> do you think we need to change that number? >> the administration has no position on whether we need to change that or not.
▶ 0:35:59I do think that that number is still well below the potential biological removal. >> okay. So we can increase it above the 10%. And we would still retain a sustainable population of pinnipeds in the pacific northwest. >> I think that's likely. Yes. >> okay. Do you have a specific number?
▶ 0:36:14The witnesses on our second panel will talk about the relationship that the tribes in the pacific northwest have with noaa in working through these issues, what do you think noaa could more effectively do to partner with the tribes to control the pinniped populations? Do you have some additional ideas? >> we very much value our partnership with the sovereign pacific northwest tribes. I we have been partnering with them on many issues for decades.
▶ 0:36:41As long as the national marine fisheries service has been an entity. Um, they have a long history, even well before, uh, european civilization came of managing their own natural resources. Well, uh, we try to provide within our authorities, uh, support for their efforts and to work closely with them. As indicated on the columbia, we've taken advantage of the congressional authority given and partnered with them to issue a permit, uh, that we believe has been successful within the columbia.
▶ 0:37:11We've not been able to do that in the rest of the northwest, because there's no authority to issue a similar permit at the moment. Um, but we have been working with them on, um, preparing if that were to become an eventuality. >> do you have any particular ideas of how to improve this situation from the standpoint of, of better protecting the salmon species? >> the administration has no particular view on this.
▶ 0:37:36But if congress were interested in more flexibilities, congress could look to the columbia river provision that it has already passed and implement that more broadly. We think that that has been a successful program on the columbia. >> okay, wonderful. Well, I appreciate your comments and your insight in that regard. And I think that there's definitely some interest among the members of of providing additional resources and additional tools to address this situation.
▶ 0:38:03Um, I'd now, uh, will go to ranking member hoyle for her five minutes of questioning. >> thank you. And, first, madam chair, I'd like to ask for unanimous consent. That both representative emily randall and representative gluesenkamp perez of washington have permission to sit in on the dais and participate in today's hearing. >> without objection. So ordered. >> and, madam chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter the to the record statements from the fish and wildlife departments of the states of oregon and washington.
▶ 0:38:33>> without objection. So ordered. >> okay. And first, um, I want to make it clear, I believe that, um, the, uh, california sea lions and pinniped overpopulation problem is severely impacting our salmon population.
▶ 0:38:51And I would love to see us have a scientifically based approach to calling that population, as they have no natural predators to control a population that is truly upsetting. Um, the balance in our ecological systems and wildlife.
▶ 0:39:09Um, so having said that, I am very concerned that staff and programmatic cuts at noaa are affecting hatchery operations, tribal coordination, and the ability of science scientists to successfully carry out programs like section 120 f, noaa has we have not even reached the 10% allowed culling rate of pinnipeds because apparently of staff cuts.
▶ 0:39:38Now, I have specifically heard that tribal managers and state hatchery operators lost communication access with noaa's staff after a round of layoffs in february. Can you explain how noaa is working to ensure its responsibilities under section one, 20 f of part of the mpa are still being fulfilled. >> thank you for the question.
▶ 0:40:04Uh, 120 f does allow us to issue a permit to the states and the tribes, and they carry out the activities we coordinate with them. We do fund some of their work, I believe, for the years 2023, going into 2027, we have funded about 1.4 million annually. And that's currently the proposal, um, to support them there. I think that their work on that is more than that, but that is the federal contribution through the states on that.
▶ 0:40:31So we do continue to work with them, uh, and we continue to outreach to them in support of this program. >> so. Mr. specifically, I have heard tribal co-managers and state hatchery operators lost communication access with noaa staff after a round of layoffs in february. Can you explain how noaa is working to ensure its responsibilities under section 120 f are still being fulfilled?
▶ 0:41:01And what, if anything, is being done to ensure, after drastic layoffs, that the people who are doing the work, whether it's contracted or it's done by the agency, how how that work is being fulfilled and how communications are happening. >> we do have a tribal coordinator in our west coast regional office, and I speak repeatedly with our west coast regional administrator, both of which, uh, reached out to the tribes on a constant basis.
▶ 0:41:28So if there are communication problems, I encourage the tribes to reach out to one of those people and we will try to correct that. >> so if I follow up with you with these specific examples, can we get some answers and coordination? >> we're happy to take that back. >> thank you. Um, so the mpa requires no way to calculate potential biological removal levels to authorize any legal take without staff to carry out the the research or monitoring.
▶ 0:41:56How will nmfs fulfill the statutory requirement? >> we currently we constantly work on the annualized stock assessment process. We don't do a I shouldn't say annual. We do a stock assessment periodically for various stocks around the coast. We under the rebound protection act, we continue to do that. We continue to prioritize those stocks as resources allow. >> okay.
▶ 0:42:24So and then finally, um, the house bill cuts funding for noaa's pacific salmon esa work by 44%. What activities will noaa no longer carry out, and are any of these activities part of noaa's treaty and trust responsibility to our tribes? And you can get back to me if there isn't time. >> thank you. Yes, I would probably be best. We'll get back to you. >> on that.
▶ 0:42:51And I and I'd like to know specifically what what activities will not be carried out. And again, um, thank you for your work and for being here today. >> thank you for the question. We'll get back to you. >> the chair now recognizes miss malloy for her five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. Uh, Mr. rauch, thank you for being here. I am a congresswoman from utah. And just in case you've never looked at a map of the united states, utah is a long way from the ocean. Um, and it's a really dry state. I'm fairly confident we don't have any pinnipeds in utah.
▶ 0:43:20And I just learned the term salmonids preparing for this hearing. So, um, this is a lot of this is new to me and not necessarily an issue that we deal with in my state. And I don't even like to eat fish. So I'm here as a disinterested party. But I do understand that regulations have a way of taking on a life of their own, and they tend to live forever. And sometimes we lose track of what the purpose was of the regulation.
▶ 0:43:49And we we keep regulating for the sake of the regulation. So my first question for you is from your position, what would you like to see congress doing legislatively to allow efficient management of pinnipeds and salmonids, um, so that we can recover the fish species we need and have healthy populations, um, and work efficiently between the federal government, the state and the tribes.
▶ 0:44:20>> thank you for the question. The administration has taken no position on whether the congress should amend the statute or not, but in prior testimony, prior positions, we have indicated that the current structure outside of the columbia river basin, the 120 program, which is the broader program, is cumbersome and difficult to work with, and it does not allow the tribes to apply for a permit on their own.
▶ 0:44:48It requires, uh, it requires you to individually identify the bad acting, uh, sea lions. So they have to mark the sea lions. And basically the sea lions have to return before they can, um, before they can be removed, which is a cumbersome process that does not. Congress has exempted the columbia river from from that process. It also needs to be a finding that the individual sea lions are in and of themselves, causing a population level impact, which is a difficult burden to meet.
▶ 0:45:18So the program on the columbia, which does not have those three elements, has been more effective. The tribes have been able to participate. We've been able to, with the tribes and the states, been able to remove sea lions and seen some positive benefits to salmon, which is not been the case elsewhere. >> thank you. You actually already answered my second and third questions, which were, uh, was it necessary to make sure that a specific individual sea lion is predating on salmon?
▶ 0:45:46It seems like we've already pretty firmly established established that sea lions like to eat salmonids. Feels like we could, uh, make them guilty by association. And whether extending that, uh, authority would be helpful. And you answered both of them. So I will return my last two minutes, madam chairman. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes marie gluesenkamp perez for five minutes of questioning. Thank you for joining us today. >> thank you so much.
▶ 0:46:15Thank you to the chairwoman and the ranking member for holding this important hearing and for granting the opportunity to speak on this issue. So I live right above the columbia river in southwest washington, just above the bonneville dam. And I have seen and heard firsthand, um, how much work goes into managing sea lion populations and preserving local fishery, fisheries and tributaries? Um, as the name implies, sea lions are a species that belong in the sea, not in our rivers.
▶ 0:46:41Um, a sea lion is not a small creature. Um, for scale, please note the toyota corolla, a steller sea lion, um, is 11ft long and 2,500 pounds. These are behemoths and, um, toyota corolla 15ft and 3,000 pounds.
▶ 0:47:01Um, and when congress amended the marine mammal protection act to expand lethal removal authorities, it provided that eligible managers along the columbia river could remove up to 450 california sea lions and 176 steller sea lions during the five year life of the take permit. Yet we have only seen our managers come close to these maximum.
▶ 0:47:25We haven't even seen them come close to reaching, um, these levels in 2024, only 27 california and 21 steller sea lions were removed at bonneville dam. As of july this year, only 26 and 11 have been removed. Ask yourself why? Why are these numbers so small? The arduous process of removal is a key feature.
▶ 0:47:49I'm concerned that the factors contributing to this severe utilization, namely the cost and the onerous back and forth of trapping the creature, identifying its threat, shaking a can of pennies at it, re trapping and then finally darting contribute heavily. Uh, we've done some back of the envelope math to try and determine the cost to remove sea lions under the permit. Um, from our estimates, it costs over $38,000 per removal, uh, from the columbia river.
▶ 0:48:18That's roughly $203 per salmon saved in state and taxpayer federal dollars. Um, I was successful in including language in the fy 26 commerce, justice and science appropriations report that passed out of committee that would directly or would direct your agency to conduct a study on the most effective strategies for pinniped removal, considering factors such as animal health and cost. So my question to you, Mr.
▶ 0:48:42Rock, could you tell me more about what noaa is actively doing to ensure that current pinniped removal strategies are the most effective? And if direct kill strategies are being considered? >> thank you for the question. Yeah, the current permits, as you indicate, do authorize direct mortality removals.
▶ 0:49:00And we do think that in the pacific northwest for these species, that is the most effective way we have tried over the years to, to, uh, employ non-lethal removals. We have, uh, moved them hundreds of miles away. And they do come back. >> faster than the people taking them out, perhaps. >> um, they do come back. They are remarkably resilient, and they do know where their food source is.
▶ 0:49:26It is very difficult to, uh, encourage them to leave with anything less than, uh, force. At one point, we did try to find space in zoos and aquariums, but that rapidly filled up. Um, so there is no, in our opinion, currently, uh, better way to address predation other than lethal removal. >> yeah. >> um, thank you for that insight.
▶ 0:49:50Um, has noah looked into the potential challenges to removal efficacy posed by current permit requirements, such as the requirement for the sea lion to be individually identified, um, and observed eating fish before they can be removed. >> uh, I think we have said in prior testimony, and I indicated earlier today that is a very cumbersome provision. Um, that does not exist currently on the columbia river. And it makes the columbia river because they don't have to do that. That is a more effective program.
▶ 0:50:17>> um, and, um, and, and yet, I think the, the we're seeing that we're still not able to exercise those permits and, and, and I would say to my fellow committee members, you know, this is local law. This is one of the things I hear about all the time. I don't have air conditioning in my elementary schools. And to see the cost and expense gone through and the levels of ologists we have to go through to protect our, you know, our, our reliance on salmon.
▶ 0:50:46Um, it's it's well known in my in living memory. There are people in my family who live because their daddies were good fishermen. And it's not, um, it's not a, it's we're very concerned at the lack of efficacy of the current, um, removal process. So thank you for your work on this. >> thank you. Well, I sure hope we can figure out a way to fix it. And I now, uh, chair now recognizes Mr. westerman for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 0:51:15And thank you, Mr. rock, for your testimony. And also, uh, you know, paying attention to the questions you've already answered. And I, I think, correct me if I'm wrong. You said that we could remove 14,000 sea lions per year and still have a sustainable population, or didn't understand that. >> thank you for your question. Yes.
▶ 0:51:39The marine mammal protection act requires us to assess the optimal, sustainable population and the potential biological removal, which is how many sea lions or whatever the species is you can remove and still have that sustainable population. >> and that number is 14,000. >> for california sea lions, it is 14,000 for the steller sea lions it is 2000 okay. >> and but the law limits that to 10% of that number.
▶ 0:52:05So that would be 1400 or um 1600 if you were to add them all together. >> I'm not great at math. Um, but yes, the current 120 f does limit what we can authorize to 10% of that potential biological removal rate. >> so if I'm reading the data correctly over the past five years, we've removed like 229. >> we have not come close to that level.
▶ 0:52:33>> and that's and that's a very conservative number. When you look at the 10% being the limit. But also, um, I believe your testimony notes that the current 120 f removals have saved more than 110,000 adult fish. So the potential to save more fish is in the millions while maintaining a sustainable level of of sea lions. If I'm. Is that correct?
▶ 0:53:05>> there is a potential. There are only so many sea lions you can remove that are actually causing the predation. I think one of the testimonies was the predation went down to 1%. So at some point you run out of sea lions. Um, they're not coast wide. There's plenty of sea lions. But you would run out of sea lions that are preying on the fish at the locks. But there is a potential. The more that you remove the the. We do see improvements in survival.
▶ 0:53:31>> and you mentioned that, uh, the goal of balancing the requirements between esa and mpa would require more regulatory flexibility. >> if, uh, at the moment, we cannot we cannot implement a similar program to the program on the columbia elsewhere in the region because 120, which is the authority congress has given us elsewhere, does require us to have individual, identifiable sea lions.
▶ 0:53:58We've got to determine that those sea lions themselves are having a negative impact on the population, and we cannot partner with the tribes directly in order to to take advantage of their historical ability to manage populations. >> so in, in noah's view, would expanded authority for lethal management of pinnipeds, um coast wide likely have a positive impact on salmon recovery and abundance.
▶ 0:54:24>> if congress were to choose to do that, I do think that that would improve salmon recovery in abundance coast wide. >> so what what data gaps exist today in the columbia river to guide fishery managers and policy makers to identify the best strategies for, uh, pinniped management throughout the whole region? >> it is very difficult. There are a number of different salmon stocks, so the columbia river stocks are not the same as the puget sound stocks. So you need to understand the local impacts in those stocks.
▶ 0:54:53And the the pinniped populations are also not uniformly measured. They're quite there are a lot of them. But to identify at the moment to identify whether or not the removals in one particular river, like we said, the nisqually, whether that would be having a population level effect on the whole sea lion population is something we are not currently resourced to assess.
▶ 0:55:17So those kind of levels, because the requirement is that you have to tie individual sea lions to population effects. That requires a degree of scientific research that we've not been able to provide. >> and what's the limit limitation on being able to provide that resource? >> we don't we we have not had the funding. And given that there is not an authorized partner to to manage at that local level, um, there's not the resources to do that.
▶ 0:55:46>> so in my travels in the pacific northwest, every time I go out and visit with people about salmon, I'm nearly always talking with tribes who seem to have some really a really good grasp of what needs to happen. They're doing, uh, great work in that area. Is there a way for noaa and tribes to partner better on these issues? >> we do.
▶ 0:56:09We I mean, we would agree with your assessment of, uh, the important works that tribes do now and have historically done throughout time immemorial on these stocks. There are always better opportunities to partner. We try to partner with them to the extent that we can. We cannot partner with them directly on sea lion removal outside of the columbia, because we don't have that authority currently to do that. >> um. >> thank you.
▶ 0:56:37Good, good, good exchange of information there. The chair now recognizes Mr. neguse for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. I appreciate the opportunity. Certainly an interesting and important topic. Uh, and and grateful for the committee chairwoman and ranking members decision to hold this hearing. Uh, Mr.
▶ 0:56:59I wanted to ask you some questions on perhaps a different topic, but nonetheless very important to my district in colorado, and I think to the future of our country, uh, just want to baseline kind of understand your background. Uh, of course. Congratulations on your your position. Now, my understanding is that prior to your current role, that you previously worked at the department of justice. >> that was some years ago. Yes, sir. In the 90s. >> correct.
▶ 0:57:27As a trial attorney, uh, and I believe at some point as an assistant section chief at the department of justice and you've received many accolades, I think, both within doj and the department of commerce. Uh, given that experience, I suspect you are more familiar than most with the organic statutes that create and authorize different programs that are implemented at noaa. Fair to say.
▶ 0:57:51>> I am familiar with the fishery statutes, the magnuson-stevens fishery conservation management act, the mpa that we've talked about here, the endangered species act. There are other statutes that affect other parts of noaa that I do not have familiarity with. Sure. >> well, let's stick with fisheries just by way of example, because I think you've attested that that's where your expertise, uh, is centered.
▶ 0:58:12I presume you'd agree with me that your department, your division, would be unable to reorganize wide swaths of the fisheries programs that you implement, provided those have been created, authorized by federal statute. You would not noah wouldn't be able to proceed with, for example, eliminating whole cloth, those programs. Is that a fair assessment?
▶ 0:58:42>> that sounds to me like you're asking a question well beyond my capability to answer. I'm no longer an attorney for the united states government, and I don't I do not know the full breadth and scope of what authorities might be available to do that. >> okay. Fair enough. The reason why I ask that question. You are a senior high ranking official at noaa. We rarely get opportunities to question and have dialog with folks at the department of commerce these days. As you know, there's certainly been public reporting.
▶ 0:59:12We don't have much visibility into the details, that there are massive reorganization plans that the department of commerce has proposed specifically for noaa. Uh, and those reorganization plans, at least based on public reporting that we've seen, suggest that several core programs administered by noaa could be eliminated entirely, which would be plainly violative of federal law.
▶ 0:59:35And we've seen that play out that episode over the course of the last several months in other departments, most prominently the department of health and human services, which is mired in litigation on this precise point. Uh, I represent, uh, multiple noaa installations in colorado. I don't know if you've had an opportunity during your long career to visit boulder and to visit the facility there. Uh, perhaps you have. >> about 20 years ago, sir. >> 20 years ago. Yes, sir. So. Well, we welcome you back.
▶ 1:00:04Um, you know, these are your compatriots. Hard working federal civil servants doing important work that has been statutorily authorized and funded by the united states congress. And so I just I guess I would offer, insofar as you are willing to relay back to your colleagues at headquarters here in washington, uh, or in maryland, that it matters a great deal that the department of commerce follow the law.
▶ 1:00:33And I do not believe that the department has the authority to eliminate programs that have been authorized by congress. The ocean acidification program, the earth prediction innovation center, otherwise known as epic, the national sea grant college program. These are all programs that congress has authorized by law on a bipartisan basis. And there are hard working civil servants.
▶ 1:01:03Your colleagues at noaa, back in boulder, in colorado and across the country who are responsible for implementing these programs, as well as the cooperative institutes that have also been authorized by congress. And I just would encourage you to go back to your colleagues, as I said at headquarters, to make the case that there are certainly many of us in congress who are watching this very closely and who expect the department to follow the law. Uh, so you're welcome to respond to that.
▶ 1:01:28Um, but I would just I'm not trying to, you know, kind of get you to a gotcha question here or anything like that. I just want it's important for me, given the limited, uh, exposure that we have to officials at the department of commerce these days to be able to relay that to you. >> I'd be happy to relay those views back to them. >> thank you. And thank you, madam chair. I yield back the balance of my time. >> the chair now recognizes Mr. lamalfa for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. Uh, thank you for bearing with us, Mr. rogers.
▶ 1:01:57Um, so we have in california the listed winter run chinook salmon and the spring run chinook salmon under the esa. Um, so that's requiring more cold water to be held in shasta dam for future releases to ostensibly help the fish. Uh, mostly in the fall. This water otherwise could be used to help, uh, towns and farms across the state, as we've seen tremendous water cuts affecting the sacramento and san joaquin valley in recent years.
▶ 1:02:22Sometimes, uh, the maintaining the water can result also in flood releases during the winter and spring, as they have to leave space for flood control. So the water you didn't get to use during the summer in previous crop years, for example, kept the dam too full at the time. They have to have, uh, their, their buffer zone for flood control in the year. So that means the water got wasted not being able to use it, because they had to keep the lake deeper.
▶ 1:02:50When the water is released from the benefits of salmon, it may not always be able to be used by constituents down the line because of the timing I mentioned here, because if you're releasing it in the fall, then that can't go to agriculture. Uh, agriculture's season is pretty much over with by then, so it may not be needed for anything else other than to try and drive the temperature of the river down by one degree. And that's going to be the be all end all to help the fish population. One degree colder water in the river.
▶ 1:03:19Meanwhile, a bigger and bigger zone behind the dam is now unusable water for anybody else. Other regulatory restrictions can prevent this water from being exported from the delta farther down into the central valley, via the central valley project and state water project, uh conveyance canals. So instead it rushes on out to the delta through the delta.
▶ 1:03:40So what we see, though, is that salmon populations continue to decline despite all this new water over the last 30 years being pushed through there because of predatory fish, because of actually the environmental issues that not get talked about enough of bay area cities, uh, releasing effluent into the to the delta, causing algae and lack of oxygenation and all that.
▶ 1:04:03So we do happen to have two fish hatcheries, the livingston stone national fish hatchery and the coleman national fish hatchery, which spawn chinook salmon to help bolster the populations without having to do more stored water in shasta that isn't usable for other purposes. So these help augment fish populations, especially during multiyear droughts, which is what these dams were created for, was to survive five years of drought.
▶ 1:04:28They don't anymore, so that more shasta water can actually be put to human use of, such as growing food, instead of importing more and more crops. Like I. In my ag committee briefing today, more and more is coming from mexico and other places like that. Um, so both of these hatcheries are in the process of being modernized. So I'm wondering, do you, uh, do you see that the improvements are critical to supporting the salmon production that would help the population? Um, how will nymphs and noah, etc.
▶ 1:04:59Ensure its permitting decisions for these upgrades are timely, predictable and aligned to the reclamation's investment schedule? Will permitting hold this up for a needless extra amount of time. >> thank you for the questions. Um, we do think that these two hatcheries are important for the long term health of the populations.
▶ 1:05:20We have been working closely with the department of interior, who are the operating agencies of these facilities, and we are committed to working with them within their permitting schedule, their processing schedule, to. >> do they have any urgency on on getting these projects done speedily or getting through the permit process quickly or expeditiously? >> I cannot speak for the department of interior. We are committed to working quickly with them within their schedules. >> okay. All right. So, um.
▶ 1:05:53Would they would you support additional or excuse me, additional alternate delivery mechanisms, such as nonfederal partners, to help carry out design, environmental work or portions of the construction to expedite these upgrades and make these a stronger, more viable, uh, pair of hatcheries. >> I can't speak for interior, but we have seen many, many projects across the country where including nonfederal partners have made the projects more successful. >> so you do feel urgency to, at least at some level, try and speed these up and have it.
▶ 1:06:25>> we're we are we will work within the bounds that try to meet the schedules that interior has given us, and we will try to do that as quickly as we possibly can. >> okay. Thank you. Up on the klamath river, um, noah, nymphs are looking at, uh, what the klamath water users are dealing with up there. Uh, what they have is studies on fish flows that are over 20 years and very limited to, uh, um, water going only for fish and not agriculture, which has been devastated for the last 20 plus years.
▶ 1:06:55With that, um, is it possible that, um, we could have a consultation that, uh, that revisits actual best and latest science, not 20 plus year old studies on fish needs for all all types of fish. And really, whether it's coho, that has been the focus. >> yeah. Thank you for the question. I know that, um, interior once again is considering reinitiating consultation there.
▶ 1:07:23If we do do that, we are both statutory committed to using the best available science. And as you know, the president has indicated we should only be implementing gold standard science. So we would be looking for the best science that we possibly can to apply to any revisited consultation that reclamation were asked for. >> and farmers have urgency to get their 26 crop season planned and 27, etc.
▶ 1:07:45Can we, uh, can we give them assurance that they know what they can plant, how much water they'll have available in 26 or 27? >> reclamation controls the water delivery. But we will we are trying to ensure that the national fisheries service is not an impediment in terms of scheduling any of that process. >> thank you. I yield back, madam chair. >> thank you. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony today and for the members and their questioning.
▶ 1:08:11The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witness, and we will ask that you respond to those in writing. So I believe that you're going to be dismissed at this point. And while the clerk is resetting the table, I will introduce our second panel of witnesses. Again, Mr. rudd, thank you for coming today. Miss asia dakota, the executive director of the columbia river inter-tribal fish commission in portland, oregon. Mr.
▶ 1:08:39Ed johnstone, the chairman of the northwest indian fisheries commission from olympia, washington, and Mr. larry phillip phillips, the pacific fisheries policy director of the american sport fishing association from olympia, washington. And the honorable ken choke, the chairman of the nisqually indian tribe from olympia, washington. Let me remind the witnesses that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes.
▶ 1:09:10But your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone. And again, we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I will also allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning. I now recognize miss dakota for five minutes. And if I said your name correctly. >> yes you did. Thank you.
▶ 1:09:42>> good. Thank you. I now recognize you for five minutes for your opening statement. >> thank you. Chair hageman, ranking member and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to share our experiences confronting marine mammal predation on salmon populations in the columbia river. Uh, I'm asia dakota, a citizen of the yakama nation and the executive director for the columbia river inter-tribal fish commission.
▶ 1:10:06We are a governmental subdivision of four treaty tribes the yakama, warm springs, umatilla, and nez perce. Collectively our tribes and carry out one of the largest tribally led fishery programs in the united states, working across an area larger than florida. Increased presence of california sea lions, steller sea lions, and harbor seals within the lower columbia river are severely impacting our region's salmon conservation efforts. Historically, our elders remember an occasional sea lion reaching celilo falls.
▶ 1:10:35However, these occurrences were rare. Now, a combination of hydro system infrastructure, changing environmental conditions, and the success of the marine mammal protection act has resulted in unprecedented numbers of sea lions in the columbia river. Starting in the early 2000, sea lion numbers began to climb as they learned to use river bottlenecks to consume returning salmon and steelhead, including 13 esa listed stocks.
▶ 1:10:59These sea lions have not only returned each year, but they are teaching their offspring and others this behavior. Dealing with this problem wasn't straightforward, as sea lions are protected by the marine mammal protection act. Section one. 20 of this act allows for lethal removal of nuisance marine animals, but only as a last resort after non-lethal methods have failed.
▶ 1:11:19This stringent requirement was meant to maintain the act's core mission of sustaining healthy marine mammal populations, but it made effectively managing this abnormal situation in the lower columbia river impossible. Initially, we worked with mmpa, allowed constraints using non-lethal deterrents such as hazing, acoustic devices, trapping and locating and exclusion devices with only mixed success, as resources only allowed 6 to 8 hours a day to address around the clock. Around the clock problem.
▶ 1:11:49Despite our efforts, predation rates more than doubled between 2006 and 2015, and it was a clear it was clear that a strong solution was required with bipartisan support. The endangered salmon predation prevention act was signed into law in 2018, amending section 120 of the mmp to enable noaa to issue permits to washington, oregon, idaho, and the four treaty tribes to legally take sea lions and a limited portion of the columbia river, with the intention of protecting esa listed salmon species after six
▶ 1:12:19Years. I'm pleased to report that the impact of this amendment has been dramatic. After removing 30 sea lions at willamette falls, winter steelhead losses from the pinniped predation went from 25% to just under 2% at bonneville dam. Despite the challenges from its larger area and greater number of sea lions, targeted removals have led to a 91% decrease in sea lion days and significant reductions in predation. The permit was recently extended through august 2030.
▶ 1:12:46Despite the calls that have taken place since 2018, this effort has had no measurable impact on the overall sea lion population. Thanks to the mpa, california sea lions number approximately 207,000 500,000 and are at or near carrying capacity well beyond the optimal sustainable population level that noaa developed. I urge congress to prioritize the following actions.
▶ 1:13:11Sustained funding to maintain and expand removal programs at bonneville dam and willamette falls. Amend the mpa to extend area based management authorities into the lower columbia river. Requests noaa to assess current management options and provide a roadmap for effective strategies, support expanded monitoring as sea lion behavior changes.
▶ 1:13:35Invest in technology to prevent sea lions from moving upstream, past the estuary, and lastly, support research and development of innovative, non-lethal deterrents. While sea lion predation on adult salmonids and smolts is significant, I must emphasize the need for a holistic approach to predation management overall, addressing avian, piscivorous and marine mammal predation, collectively protecting salmonid populations is vital for the ecological health of our rivers and the cultural and economic well-being of our communities.
▶ 1:14:06Finally, I want to let the committee know that our tribes and the columbia river inter-tribal fish commission. Do not take lethal removals lightly or as the preferred option. We don't want to be in the business of managing pacific marine mammal populations into perpetuity. Lethal removals of animals with this learned behavior will minimize predation now and prevent new sea lions from establishing this pattern into the future. We are very much aligned with our state co-managers in this goal.
▶ 1:14:33Thank you for your time and consideration. Happy to answer any questions. >> thank you and thank you for your recommendations. I now recognize Mr. johnstone for five minutes. >> thank you. Uh, chair and, uh, ranking member and the committee for this opportunity to speak before you on this important issue. I am a quinault indian and was born a treaty indian.
▶ 1:15:02I'm one of the elders that she speaks about, that can that can speak from the time that I can remember in the late 50s and early 60s, where sea lions were very rare to observe. The northwest indian fish commission is comprised of the 20 treaty tribes organized shortly after the decision known as united states versus washington from five treaty areas, was signed in 1854 and 1855.
▶ 1:15:31It's with that background that I speak to you that our ancestors lived this life, and it was brought to me when I was born, and I lived on this coast. And listening to your opening remarks are very powerful.
▶ 1:15:52Listening to what we hear from, uh, noaa gives me hope that I'm here for to speak for the 20 member tribes and policy as directed. And we've looked at this issue for a long time.
▶ 1:16:12And in our written testimony, you'll see some of that story where the muckleshoot dealt with the sea lion called herschel at at the locks and going into lake washington, and that that seal, that sea lion was numbered and then taken somewhere and almost beats them home. Right.
▶ 1:16:35No more steelhead whatsoever in the in the lake washington into the tributaries where the, the muckleshoot and other tribes fish the this problem is needs to be an ecosystem based uh approach needs the legislative fix and administrative fix to, to um, engage in a process of this meeting and other meetings that
▶ 1:17:06Were our member tribes and our leadership are definitely on board with where we can be when we can meet. And we get results of the testimonies that you're hearing. So we've, we've we've developed these policy, given these limitations that we have been faced with.
▶ 1:17:26When you hear, uh, the, the dynamics of 250, 275,000 300,000 california sea lions, they're not only eating the adults, they're eating the out migrants. In a world where there's no more spring runoff and the glaciers are no longer there, that milk is the water that helps those smolts go out to the sea.
▶ 1:17:53Because our glaciers are going and they're gone. Snow is not reliable. Those kinds of things that we had as protections in the in the past are no longer available. Our adults are dying pre-spawn because the rivers are too low. They're out of oxygen and we're out of and, you know, we're we're facing those kind of challenges.
▶ 1:18:18So it's it's a vast approach that we need to think about as we tackle this issue. Because as the sea lion population grows, those fish that they rely on, no matter where they're from or where they're going, they they used to be that southern oregon, northern california, central valley, large populations that that kept them. Now they've grown so large.
▶ 1:18:44The young bulls are are ostracized and they have to go out and they have to make a living. They're making a living in grays harbor, where the haulouts and the docks are full of these sea lions, or they're at the mouth of the squally, where there's 2 or 300 rafted up waiting for those stocks.
▶ 1:19:04You know, we're we're about working through this system with all of these folks that are coming to call out all these reasons why we're being put out of business. They eat 60 pounds a day times 250,000. You know, you get to what, a million, million and a quarter pounds a day of fish stocks that are diminishing.
▶ 1:19:32At some point the natural order will take over. They're out of business. We're out of business. We encourage and are encouraged by the words we heard. We're ready to do the job to meet wherever and whenever we can. We think that two pronged approach and ecosystem based is a positive way to go. You know, I've had to kind of change up the script.
▶ 1:19:56You have a you have a written testimony that we've advanced, we're here, we're engaged. We look forward to the opportunity of working this. So my grandchildren and my grandchildren's children's knows the lifeways of our people as indian people. As they go, we go the salmon. Thank you for this opportunity. >> thank you, Mr. johnstone.
▶ 1:20:25Uh, the chair now recognizes Mr. phillips for five minutes. >> good morning, chair hagman. Ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is larry phillips, and I serve as a pacific fisheries policy director for the american sportfishing association, or asa.
▶ 1:20:47Asa represents the country's recreational fishing industry and many businesses whose livelihoods depend on healthy salmon and steelhead runs across the pacific northwest. Recreational fishing is part of the identity of the region. From puget sound to the columbia river basin and along the coast of washington, oregon. Salmon season support thousands of jobs, strengthen local economies, and carry forward cultural and family traditions.
▶ 1:21:12Nationwide, recreational fishing contributes more than $130 billion annually, and anglers directly invest nearly $2 billion a year into conservation. For decades, federal, state and tribal partners, as well as anglers have invested heavily in salmon recovery through habitat restoration, hatchery modernization, harvest reform and hydropower mitigation. But for one major factor continues to erode these gains pinniped predation on salmon and steelhead.
▶ 1:21:40Today's populations are healthy, fully protected, and significantly larger than when systematic surveys began in the 1970s following the passage of the marine mammal protection act. While we can't precisely quantify pre-contact abundance, science shows that these populations have rebounded dramatically in the modern era, and many stocks are at or above optimum sustainable population levels.
▶ 1:22:04The recovery is a conservation success, but it also means that predation pressure on salmon has grown far beyond what recovery efforts were designed to absorb. In the columbia river, sea lions that were nearly absent in the 1990s can consume a significant portion, an estimated as high as 40% of the spring chinook return in a single season. Thanks to the leadership of senator risch, senator cantwell, representative newhouse, and others.
▶ 1:22:32The 2018 endangered salmon predation prevention act provided targeted tools and early results showed improved, showed improved salmon survival. But the mpa still prevents meaningful actions in many areas where predation is most acute.
▶ 1:22:48In puget sound, harbor seals consume 6 to 14% of juvenile salmon juvenile chinook annually, and as much as one third of the steelhead smolts in certain estuaries along the washington coast, steller sea lions can consume more than 2 million juvenile chinook annually. These losses undo gains made through habitat restoration, hatchery reform, and harvest constraints, and outside the columbia river, managers lack the workable path under current law to intervene.
▶ 1:23:18I want to acknowledge that this is a polarizing and emotional topic. Pinnipeds are an important part of an ecosystem of the ecosystem, and the recovery is a real success story of the marine mammal protection act. We also appreciate the thoughtful, science driven work already being done by federal, state and tribal managers. Um, often under very limited authority.
▶ 1:23:40And our goal is not to diminish those efforts, but to ensure managers have a balanced tool needed to conserve both salmon and pinnipeds to support the recovery. Asa urges congress to consider several targeted, science based updates to the mpa.
▶ 1:23:54First, create a streamlined pathway for managing predatory pinnipeds in puget sound and along the washington and oregon coast by expanding location based approach in section 120 f, second, extend management authority to predation hotspots, including puget sound, in both our coasts. Third, provide dedicated federal funding to support monitoring, monitoring, removals, and ongoing scientific analysis.
▶ 1:24:21Fourth, extend mpa management authority to washington's treaty tribes and work collaboratively with oregon's tribal governments. Finally, pinniped management must complement, not replace, investments in habitat hatcheries, hydropower mitigation, and harvest reform.
▶ 1:24:42But we must also be honest, continuing to spend billions on recovery and continually restricting fisheries without meaningfully addressing predation will produce a predictable outcome that will not result in recovery. The sport fishing community cares deeply about conservation. We want future generations to fish for salmon across the northwest. To achieve that, we must address all limiting factors, including marine mammal predation.
▶ 1:25:07I thank you for your time and continued leadership and I look forward to any questions. >> thank you. Mr. phillips. The chair now recognizes chairman choke for five minutes. >> thank you. Good morning everyone. Chairwoman hegeman, chairman westerman and ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. I want to thank you for this opportunity to speak today. My name is ken choke.
▶ 1:25:37I am the current chairman of the indian tribe. Before I begin, I want to thank chairman westerman for coming to nisqually reservation and seeing firsthand what the pinnipeds are doing to our fisheries. My people signed the treaty of medicine creek in 1854, which confirmed not granted our right to fish at our usual and accustomed places.
▶ 1:26:05The right has been upheld again and again by federal courts, including the 1974 boldt decision. I'm here today because of the treaty rights, uh, being undetermined by unchecked pinniped predations in the puget sound. Simply put, if salmon cannot survive long enough to reach our nets and our spawning grounds, then our treaty rights becomes empty. Promise.
▶ 1:26:30Our people have lived along the squally river since time immemorial. Salmon. Salmon are not just a food source for us. They are the heart of our culture, our economy, and our identity. But today, too often our fisheries are closed because too few fish return home to sustain the runs.
▶ 1:26:53Over the past several decades, our chinook chum steelhead populations have fallen deeply troubling to deeply troubling levels, many now listed under the endangered species act. During the same years, harbor seals and sea lions members have grown dramatically under the protection of the marine mammal protection act, simply known as mpa.
▶ 1:27:22This has been successful in recovering marine mammals, but it is not designed for the ecological, uh, realities we see today, where predator numbers have far outpaced the ability of depressed salmon runs to withstand them. In 2022, the washington state academy of sciences stated.
▶ 1:27:51Pinniped predation impeding salmon recovery and the strategic removal may be necessary to address these impacts. Yet the current mpa structures makes meaningful science based management nearly impossible. Tribes and state managers are left watching salmon disappear while our tools stay locked behind the federal process.
▶ 1:28:16In the nisqually and across the south puget sound. Our biologists, biologists, as well as the state and federal partners have documented high rates of predation of both juvenile and the adult salmon, wild and hatchery alike, seals and sea lions concentrate at the river's mouth. The ferries, the docks, and other choke points.
▶ 1:28:44Some even learn to target our fishery gear directly. For the esa listed chinook and steelhead, losing even a small number of the adults or smolts can erase years of recovery efforts. Let me be clear that mike quigley tribe has done everything we can to help save our salmon. We restored over 900 acres of our estuary habitat, one of the largest such projects on the west coast.
▶ 1:29:12We have limited or closed our own fisheries. We operate hatcheries. We co-manage harvest based on rigorous science. We work with noaa, w, f.w. And partner tribes such as the northwest indian fisheries commission on long term monitoring, tagging, predation research and climate resilience.
▶ 1:29:38But we cannot resolve the salmon alone when predation removes a significant share of the population before it's ever returns to the river. For us, it impacts are not abstract. They mean fewer fish reaching the spawning grounds, fewer hatchery adults for treaty and non-treaty harvesters, and most closures.
▶ 1:30:07Even when the tribes are not the source of the decline. And they mean an erosion of our culture, our youth losing the opportunity to learn who they are through fishing. When federal law protects abundant species so rigorous, uh, rigidly, that it eliminates another species and in doing so eliminates the reserved tribal treaty. Right.
▶ 1:30:36The federal trust responsibility is not being fulfilled. We are not asking for the elimination of the seals or sea lions. We respect them as a part of the ecosystem. What we are asking for is a balance. We urge congress to modernize the mpa to allow timely, science based action where predation threatens.
▶ 1:31:01Esa listed salmon and treaty fisheries to streamline the section 120 process to support long term predation research and tribal led management, and to reinforce the federal trust responsibility so that so our right to fish remains meaningful and not symbolic for the nisqually people. Salmon, our relatives, our treaty promised we could continue the relationship forever.
▶ 1:31:29It is now up to all of us, including congress, to ensure those promises are kept. Thank you for listening and I'm happy to answer any questions. >> thank you. And I want to thank all of the witnesses for your very informative testimony. Um, and I will now recognize members for five minutes each for questions. And again, I'm going to begin with me, and I would like to start with you, chairman choke.
▶ 1:31:55In your testimony, you talk about the conflicting mandates between the marine mammal protection act and the endangered species act in relation to increasing pinniped populations and the stress that has been placed on our salmon species. I think this is an example of government always trying to fix its last solution, and we need to find a different way of doing this. But could you please expand on the challenges that the nisqually tribe has faced due to the statutes, conflicting mandates?
▶ 1:32:26>> so initially, there's a clear understanding. You know, unless we work together, um, we can't resolve the issue. Um, I thank you for the question. And, uh, you know, there's so much more to discuss in the future.
▶ 1:32:42And, you know, I just I can't share enough of what what how it's truly impacted the people and what we've been up against for the last decade or so a lot longer myself, I've been, um, I've been a worked at the hatcheries. I've been a fish and wildlife officer. So I've seen firsthand what these how how they've impacted our salmon on the river. But again, thank you for that question.
▶ 1:33:11We'll talk more. >> I think that one of the points that I hope is coming out of this hearing today is that we recognize the absolute critical importance of the tribes involvement in finding that solution of how to fix this issue. And so I am going to challenge all of you who are here today. Uh, I know in your testimony you have provided suggestions. And Mr. cody, you, uh, in your testimony, you provided some good examples of things that can be done. All of you have done that.
▶ 1:33:40I think it is absolutely critical that we sit down. We put those things down on paper. We start trying to we we we get to a solution for this. And all of you are very important, um, in reaching, uh, some kind of an agreement on how we can move forward. Uh, chairman johnstone, your testimony was very interesting to me. And in 2022, you wrote a column titled marine mammal. Predation on salmon is out of control. It sounds like that's kind of the understatement of the century in some ways.
▶ 1:34:09But you referenced a study that found that sea lions and seals eat roughly 1.2 million pounds of chinook salmon every single year. And you also noted that tribes have reduced their fisheries by 80 to 90% in the last four decades. How has uninhibited pinniped growth negatively impacted tribal fishing practices throughout the region? Can you just provide some additional examples? >> yeah, thank thank you for that question.
▶ 1:34:37I've, uh, I've fished my entire life. I, under our treaty rights, are reserved rights. I started fishing the river in 1974, and this predation issue is, is, uh, you know, is also the sea, the seals, also the harbor seals, which we've lived with for since time immemorial. And we there are food source.
▶ 1:35:05Uh, they were a clothing source. The valuable fats and oils, uh, to to our people forever. Um, so they've we've been presence with them forever. And the sea lions are are a migrated here. What happens is you you have to deal with the reduced numbers of fish that are produced.
▶ 1:35:34That's the out migrants you have, the adults that, that that are returning. They're also eaten by the seals and sea lions in tandem. So you're you're fluctuation in your forecasting of your ability to reach an escapement objective and have a fishery get can get compromised. They go lower, they go lower, then other impacts drive it even lower.
▶ 1:36:06And then our ability to have a season is diminished at that rate that they calculate in estimations. The scientists and put try to put a buffer in but never accounted for. The real true impacts my entire 51 years of steelhead and for instance, shows us that that stock you watch the the population dynamics going like this for
▶ 1:36:37Multiple reasons, but a true contributing factor is predation. It reduces our ability to have our fish for food and our economy. >> well, thank you for that information. And miss dakota, just real quickly, could you talk about some of the successes of the 120 f program and what lessons learned could be applied as congress considers management tools to address the predation coast wide? >> thank you.
▶ 1:37:05Thank you for the question. I think one of the most, uh, the best example is, is willamette falls as being a successful implementation of sea lion removal. Um, and I think one of the lessons learned from that is that, uh, that it can't be applied, um, to all rivers in the same way. And so, you know, we have the bonneville dam, um, which is, uh, where we have a huge amount of populations.
▶ 1:37:31Um, and we just don't have, um, the capacity, the funding, the, um, the resources to really address the issue because it's a larger geographic footprint. So the landscape of the river is much different from the willamette river. So it offers, um, numerous issues. Uh, and so there's a number of haulouts, um, on the columbia. And if the, if the sea lions aren't going into those traps, we just can't get them.
▶ 1:38:00Um, and so it's just a matter of geography. >> all right. Thank you for that. Uh, the chair now recognizes miss hoyle for five minutes of questions. >> thank you so much. Um, Mr. phillips, first of all, I just want to thank you for just as soon as we asked you to come out. Jumping on a plane, getting into dulles at 1:00 last night and and getting here this morning. It really means a lot.
▶ 1:38:23As you know, um, sports fishermen are conservationists and care about the health of our rivers and healthy salmon populations. So, um, I also want to say I appreciate your, your, your four very, very clear things that we can do to improve the salmon population that takes into account everything. And pinniped management is critical.
▶ 1:38:46So what I would, um, ask you is what federal support do you think is needed to keep salmon populations healthy enough to support both conservation and recreational fishing opportunities? >> yeah. Thank you for the question and I appreciate the opportunity to be here. So, um, my pleasure. Um, you know, funding is is really a big part of this, right?
▶ 1:39:13Um, we we know that every year, um, just to implement the current, um, program, it's it's extremely expensive. It's rigid. Um, so that's what makes it expensive. Um, if you talk to the managers who are working on this program, uh, they'll tell you that a big obstacle is, is the funding part of this, the the workload associated with capturing, uh, sea lion in and around the, the area, the fish ladders, um, taking that individual to a
▶ 1:39:44Secure location and, and, uh, having a veterinarian euthanize is an extremely, um, intensive process that is underfunded. Um, um, just to meet the current, um, program objectives. So I would say that is the largest portion, obviously at the state level, too. We have heavily involvement from the state, as you're probably aware. Um, there's financial challenges both with oregon and washington right now and their commitment and priorities.
▶ 1:40:12Um, um, haven't made, uh, this, uh, a large priority for, for, um, moving forward. So we hope that that that'll be a bigger priority for both washington and oregon and also a federal investment at this at that level.
▶ 1:40:29>> so would you agree that in that in addition to more funding, appropriate staffing at the federal level, which is critical, that more flexibility in this program, which maybe would reduce bureaucracy, have things more streamlined, cost less per sea lion euthanized would be a good approach. >> absolutely.
▶ 1:40:51Um, it is it is a you know, we're learning as we went along here, and we know that the work that you've done over the past decade, decades has really, um, provided us with an avenue forward. But I think there's a lot of work that can be done. And, um, certainly the bullet points that I, my, myself and others here have laid out, um, I think is a is a good opportunity or possibility for us to move forward. >> thank you, Mr. phillips.
▶ 1:41:16And, um, miss decoteau, um, section 120 f authority allows up to 1400 california sea lions and 2217 sea lions to be removed annually, but permitting is used far less than that. What? What is your impression of why? >> thank you for the question.
▶ 1:41:39Um, part of the reason is just, uh, the fact that sea lions are very smart and clever and, uh, they have this learned behavior. And so if, uh, we have, um, these methods, uh, to deter them that aren't working, we need these lethal deterrents.
▶ 1:41:57Um, but the really it comes down to, uh, again, what I said earlier, it's really about, um, the funding for for more traps, specifically at bonneville dam and more crew, uh, to be able to, uh, get all of these sea lions out of the system. So it's it's part of the issue is not the fact that we don't have traps and hauling area locations out there, it's just the fact that these sea lions are very smart. Um, they they know when our crews are coming, and then they, they come right back. When? As soon as we leave.
▶ 1:42:28Um, so the fact is that we just need more, uh, alternative solutions. So one of the things that we recommended is how can we develop innovative technologies to deter sea lions from coming into the columbia river, columbia river at all? So really looking at, um, potentially things that can happen in the estuary, um, to prevent them coming and migrating into the columbia river itself. >> um, thank you. And I also want to say, Mr. johnson, thank you so much for your for your heartfelt testimony.
▶ 1:42:56When my, uh, my grandfather, my mother's family came over from ireland, they were fishermen. And at that time there were very, very strong salmon stocks and fishing stocks.
▶ 1:43:08There is the fishing industry in ireland is devastated and salmon and ireland are on the verge of extinction because politician had had had bigger fish to fry than preserving the health of our rivers and, um, of of those fish. And, uh, the salmon in ireland is a mythical creature that holds all the world's knowledge, and that fish is nearly extinct.
▶ 1:43:34And to see that happening here in the pacific northwest as well, I think it's important as you as you said, it's our responsibility to ensure that we provide and make it a priority to ensure that these these fish are able to be there for our children and our grandchildren and their grandchildren. So I just want to thank all of you for your work and testimony. It's really, really powerful.
▶ 1:44:02>> the chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mr. westerman. >> thank you, madam chair. And again, thank you so much to the witnesses for being here. Uh, this is an important topic to me. It's an important topic to the committee. For someone from a state where the only salmon you're going to find is at a grocery store or at a restaurant.
▶ 1:44:22I have this, uh, fascination with salmon, and it's because I've had opportunities to to understand better what salmon means to culture, to tradition, and really to, uh, as an outdoorsman, uh, an iconic species that, uh, has really kind of captured my eye and made me want to work along with you to help make sure we have great stocks of salmon going forward.
▶ 1:44:49Uh, I've had the opportunity to release fish in the columbia river below the chief joseph dam. I've been to nisqually. I've even seen work in the forest in washington, where culverts are being replaced with better fish passages. I know there's a tremendous amount of work that's been done in this area, and I know that tribes are are, I think, leading the way in the work that's being done.
▶ 1:45:14And we desperately need to rely on your, uh, your help more as we work on salmon. So, chairman choate, one thing that I was intrigued by when I visited nisqually was, first off, the the reason you were working so hard on salmon recovery was because you wanted to have a more traditional diet with famine for the health of your tribal members, which I thought
▶ 1:45:44Was a noble goal. Y'all took very pragmatic approaches, which you've outlined in your testimony. You've got the hatchery, you've done all the estuary, uh, rehabilitation, like trying to do everything you can, even limiting your own, uh, fishing season to try to help.
▶ 1:46:03But then as we floated down that boat to the delta and it was just sea lion heads across the the mouth of the river, it it was a very informative visual that you've done all you can do, but you you're limited in doing what you really need to do, uh, to have the fish stocks that you need.
▶ 1:46:25Um, what's all the time, all the money, all the effort that's been invested in the nisqually salmon recovery work? What's going to happen if congress doesn't provide you the rest of the tools you need to manage the pinnipeds in in the river and in the delta? >> thank you for that question, chairman.
▶ 1:46:50Um, you know, just as our elder here at ed johnstone explained that, you know, if it continues that we will not have salmon for future generations. Uh, salmon is not only a food resource for our people, but you know what certain mannerism it's it's also used for medication as well, in certain cases, fish oils and whatnot.
▶ 1:47:17You know, some of the traditional values stem in that sense. You know, I heard our senator state she does not eat salmon, but, you know, it is implemented as a medication as well. So that's something to take into consideration. Um, but that's the bottom line is we're going to we're going to lose our populations. We're going to lose our our culture, our heritage, what we you know, what the nisqually people are.
▶ 1:47:44We are we are the people of the water, people of the grass. And that's one thing we want to continue throughout the the next seven generations. >> and I appreciate you bringing in the the discussion, the treaty rights that you have. Um, that mentioned salmon. And chairman johnstone, I appreciate your testimony as well. And you suggested we need ecosystem wide, an ecosystem wide congressional fix.
▶ 1:48:12Um, how would you recommend congress approach rebalancing esa and mpa so that we can get that fix? >> yeah, I think, uh, to the member, um, that that's the term of reference means we have to look at all the complete ecosystem and what are the limiting factors to recovery.
▶ 1:48:42We're talking about recovery of our salmon stocks. We have 15 threatened and endangered species inside puget sound. And then we have three proposed. Stocks on the on the coast now in in an area that is quote unquote pristine. Pristine. Because all the federal property now we're threatened here that that tips the balance of scale.
▶ 1:49:12The scales are tipped against us. So we have to look at the total picture, then look at each component of salmon recovery and the limiting factors of which there are the avians and the seals and sea lions that were specifically addressing here. But there are those other components.
▶ 1:49:34And then this is what we've done since time immemorial, when, um, we harvested only, which we needed. And then you come into this, this regulated world court cases, laws and codes like the magnuson-stevens act and so forth.
▶ 1:49:56And then the limitations are authorizations to those responsible to uphold our treaty right, our way of life and our existence. And so, you know, that's that's a big broad. What are the those impediments to looking at the health of these ecosystems?
▶ 1:50:19We've through all of that and work as we are to figure out how is that pathway to recovery under esa, not only of the salmon populations, but the southern resident killer whale? Then you have this this other authorization called the marine mammal protection act, which is what we're here for.
▶ 1:50:43Those those two things combines and other authorities and authorizations and, and responsibility for the federal government to our treaty protected rights. So I mean, that's that's a big broad envelope.
▶ 1:51:02Our, our, um, mission is to weave through that, like you are giving this opportunity today through our testimony and by your own observation, to come out and visit us, which I, I, I want I would encourage you to come out to our 20 member tribes, to the columbia river, to to these places where you see the dynamics of our lifeways being diminished by
▶ 1:51:36All of these rules, regulations, laws, and codes. When the when those populations are coming down. And our treaties are hollow, without those resources, where, when, when we are are held to to msy or the conservation necessity, we only share that number of fish
▶ 1:52:08Available once we meet the conservation objective, a number that says we can harvest, uh, 20. Coho in the chehalis system, then we share equally with the state of washington. When that number goes down, where we no longer can share the harvestable surplus, the seals and sea lions are still eating that resource.
▶ 1:52:35They are not controlled. They don't know how to read the magnuson act and the sustainable fishery act. And they are smart. You think a sea lion smart seals are far more smarter than than sea lions.
▶ 1:52:57My own personal observation 51 years off reservation my entire life on reservation. That ecosystem base that we have to look at that holistic approach. And what can we do? How can we channel through all of these things that have been brought to us, brought to us, who signed a treaty in the language of the treaty?
▶ 1:53:25When you read isaac stevenson's that you always have fish for your frying pan, that's the lummi nation, you know, and languages that we have a lot of commonality in those marine mammals, the seals in particular, were in our everyday diet. The smokehouses were still full when I was a child in the 50s.
▶ 1:53:56>> thank you so much, chairman. Uh, madam chair has been overly generous here, and I'll just wrap up and say I'm sure the seals and sea lions appreciate all your efforts because they've benefited greatly. But it's time they give back a little bit and I yield back. >> the chair now recognizes miss randall for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 1:54:18I am so blessed to come from a district where salmon are an integral part of our environment, our culture, our economy. In washington, sixth district, we have recreation and sports fishers. We have environmentalists that see salmon for our canary in the coal mine.
▶ 1:54:42And 12 federally recognized tribes with usual and accustomed territory that overlaps with the sixth congressional district, many of whom, as we have heard from our speakers today, depend on salmon for the key role that they play in not just subsistence, but culture and our greater ecosystem.
▶ 1:55:04I feel very lucky to have worked alongside tribal leaders for the last seven years and my, um, public service life, because tribes are more often than not leading the conservation efforts with fewer resources, funding and staff than you need to do the work.
▶ 1:55:29Um, in washington, our our co-management approach often means that while you are co-managing with the state, you are carrying the lion's share of the science and the work on the ground. Chairman chuck, in your testimony, you reiterated nisqually is reserved but not received right to fish at your usual and accustomed places.
▶ 1:55:55Of course, to meet these treaty protected fishing rights, there have to be salmon to fish. I know that you have made financial investments from nisqually, large financial investments as well as time to recover salmon. I was, um, with one of your fishery scientists just last week at the puget sound partnership or recovery caucus meeting. Um.
▶ 1:56:20And in your testimony, you mentioned that the tribe has restored more than 900 acres of nisqually estuary, among the largest projects on the west coast. The tribe has done very impressive work, and it's time for the federal government to hold up our end of the bargain.
▶ 1:56:42Chairman, I wonder if you could tell us more about the main challenges that you see facing salmon populations and what congress can do and should do to ensure that our treaty obligations are being met. >> uh, thank you for that question.
▶ 1:57:01Um, you know, it's it's a good thing to note here that what we're talking about is continuing efforts, uh, working together, uh, as tribal leaders, as governmental leaders, you know, at at all three levels of federal to state and tribal.
▶ 1:57:19Um, we continue these efforts and work together and look at the alternatives of, you know, how we can, like I stated, what's not our our mission to initially, uh, eliminate the pinniped issue. It's how can we manage it in a sense that it's more feasible to everybody?
▶ 1:57:47I mean, there's there's other alternatives. And I think as long as we continue to work together, we can all make this happen. So again, thank you for that question. >> wonderful. Thank you. And I, um, just have to take a moment to say I really look forward to the unveiling of washington state's new statue in statuary hall, which will honor billy frank jr.
▶ 1:58:12Um, you know, one of the co-founders of the national indian fisheries commission, but also a leader, um, nisqually tribal member and a leader of the fishing wars that have gone so far to uphold tribal treaty rights in washington. Um, Mr. johnstone, thank you so much for being here today. It's always good to see you.
▶ 1:58:35Um, you know, we I represent a unique place, including, um, you know, the quinault nation and, um, you know, our our land is not the same as everyone's. Not everyone has a chance to experience, um, the special place that we live. And I hope that more members of the committee will. We recently went to alaska, and I got to see some of their, um, salmon habitat challenges.
▶ 1:59:02Uh, in the remaining time, I wonder if you could tell us more about the holistic approach to salmon recovery, one that includes hatchery management, harvest regulation, hydropower impacts, habitat restoration that tribes have been leading. >> yeah. Thank you. Can you just repeat that? Uh, just my hearing's not. Yeah, it should be you.
▶ 1:59:30>> um, the previous question was about the holistic approach and the holistic approach that you lead from the fisheries commission side also includes hatchery management and harvest regulation, hydropower impacts, habitat restoration. Can you say more about the the vast needs of that holistic approach? >> well, I can if I understand the question. Right.
▶ 1:59:56Um, we as an organization, we have 20 commissioners from those 20 tribes, and we're well engaged in the habitat discussion where we we do serve a function in the the hatchery world, mostly through, um, we took off, took over fish and wildlife, fish health, uh, long, long ago.
▶ 2:00:21We, uh, we work we work with the hatcheries on on the, uh, the health of health of the, uh, the stocks. But but in, in the the arena that we're in, we we we have an environmental section and we have, um, populated a committee, the environmental policy committee.
▶ 2:00:52So everything is scrubbed through those subcommittees, and we work on all those issues, including we have a climate scientist that helped us get ready for, um, everybody wrote their adaptation plans and things like that. All of all of those supported by congress. So it's key that and we have strong support out of the house interior, environment and related agencies.
▶ 2:01:19Uh, across the across the aisle. We've had real strong support since the days of congressman norm dicks. And we have and and congressman tom cole and others that have really championed and are behind behind the agreements that we signed the the united states and the responsibility that goes along with that to work together to accomplish.
▶ 2:01:44We are the partners in in the solution to a lot of these answers, uh, that we seek, we're fully engaged on all levels. Everything that we do through our organization and what we populated that comes through there are key and important to the tribes. >> thank you so much, Mr. johnstone, and thanks for your generosity, madam chair.
▶ 2:02:14>> I'm now going to recognize myself for five minutes. Um, thank you, miss decoteau. Mr. johnstone and and chairman koch, for describing for us the importance of the fisheries and the salmon population to your cultures and the treaty obligations. I think that's really helpful for us as we're looking at this, that it's not just a scientific question or a question of biology. Um, that's been really helpful for me today. Uh, now I feel like maybe I shouldn't have told you.
▶ 2:02:46I don't really like to eat fish. That was. I don't think I come from water people. I think my people are people of wind and dust. So, um, I eat cows, and I've never developed a taste for fish, but I do like to catch them. Um, and so, Mr. phillips, I want to ask you, we talked earlier in the first panel about the restrictions on commercial fishing because of the pressures on these fisheries. Could you talk a little bit about what the regulations are on sport fishing because of the regulation of fisheries?
▶ 2:03:16>> yeah. Thank you for the question. Um, you know, I you really can't separate them. We we have policy where we share between recreational and sport. Uh, excuse me, recreational and commercial fisheries. We obviously have, uh, a process for sharing between, um, non-tribal and tribal fishers. But, you know, the the reality is, is that our resources have been diminished to the point of, of constraining all fisheries.
▶ 2:03:43Um, if you look at the, the, um, the the number of days on the water where we've been open in recent years, it's a fraction of what, um, what we've had not that many decades ago. Um, and, and those challenges are continuing. We have, as you heard, many stocks listed under the endangered species act. The complexity of management is such that, uh, one stock is going to constrain fisheries across the coast.
▶ 2:04:09Um, and that stock can be one that's, um, very low abundance. So, uh, opportunity to opportunities associated with making sure that we get enough of that stock back to the to that individual river constrained fisheries up and down the coast. Um, and it has had a significant negative impact on coastal communities, tribal communities.
▶ 2:04:32Um, and and, you know, we're hopeful that this, this approach and this strategy to address at least the marine mammal predation part of this can, um, provide us some options moving forward. >> thank you. And that brings me back to a question I, I asked our first panelist.
▶ 2:04:49I'm just going to give all of you a chance to answer really quickly, starting with you, miss dakota, can you see any reason why we shouldn't expand the authorities from the columbia river basin and and lift the requirement that we prove that an individual pinniped is a bad actor before we, uh, allow control of the predators. >> you know, these are these are tough conversations to have. We we acknowledge that.
▶ 2:05:16Um, but in all, you know, from all views, points of view, I think that the marine mammal protection act worked in the northwest relative to pinniped. And, um, you know, we don't have predation on, on marine mammals, pinnipeds, for the most part, um, the natural predators have been removed. And so you heard Mr. roush talk earlier about upwards of 250,000 california sea lions, um, off our coast, in our rivers. Um, we need a tool.
▶ 2:05:44We need a tool to be able to address that portion of this challenge. Uh, no doubt we need to continue to work in the other areas where we know that habitat restoration and, and, uh, um, mitigation for, for lost, uh, for hydropower and other other, um, challenges will continue to exist. But this from our lens is something that we need to address now.
▶ 2:06:12And we think it has a real opportunity to, to to provide a meaningful outcome, to improve conditions for, for salmon and also everyone who relies on them. >> thank you. I agree and miss dakota, in your testimony, you talked about having tools on the shelf, but you felt like you couldn't reasonably use them. Do you want to address that as well? >> yes. Thank you for the question. Um, regarding the amendment to answer yes.
▶ 2:06:34Um, we specifically around the tools, um, that question is great because we need to expand the geographic scope of the mpa, um, to allow for area based management. And this will address some of the issues that I talked about in my testimony around the bonneville dam issue and that bottleneck opposed to the willamette river. Um, and what this would do is it would get us quicker and more comprehensive responses to any emerging predation issues. So as we talked about, there's a lot of learned behavior.
▶ 2:07:03Um, the the hope is that we disrupt that learned behavior so that it doesn't continue. Um, so just simply removing these animals will not do that. We need other opportunities and possibilities of potentially that noaa can provide in terms of a roadmap to, to address and look at. >> okay. Thank you, Mr. johnstone. Chairman choke, is there anything you want to quickly add in the next 10s? >> thank you for for the question.
▶ 2:07:30Uh, I think it's just our commitment to work through this process. Be diligent. Um, collaborate, find those pathways. Um, that's that's what we're our message would be out of the northwest indian fish commission in the 20 member tribes.
▶ 2:07:51Important that, uh, ability to the other other member tribes of our organization, in my opinion, um, have uh, uh, as their vital testimony, their story be heard. We're a vehicle as we are the northwest indian fish community and develop those policies.
▶ 2:08:17And I can speak to them, but the voices of those 20 member tribes are what drive us to do the work. Uh, and that's a loud voice. That's a that's our time immemorial voice. Thank you. And and we need to be inclusive. Thank you. >> thank you. I, uh, the chair now recognizes marie gluesenkamp perez for five minutes. >> thank you to the chairwoman.
▶ 2:08:47Um, chairman choke. In your testimony, you mentioned the need for congress to streamline section 120, um, process to allow managers to remove heads by means not limited to chemical euthanasia. Um, could you provide some examples or strategies other than traps and chemical euthanasia that you believe would be more effective in, um, removing or deterring sea lions? >> uh, thank you for that question. Initially.
▶ 2:09:14Um, it's something that we need to continue to take a look at and see how we can evaluate the situation. And, uh, as I stated earlier, uh, come up with less lethal means, I guess you could say, um, you know, I've always stressed the point. How can we actually, you know, resolve the issue with our pinnipeds in the harbor seals?
▶ 2:09:39One of the things we need to take in consideration is the simple fact that, you know, in alaska, they do harvest such animals. So can we work together with our, our, uh, brothers and sisters up north to, um, do what we've done in traditional ways and barter with our, our brothers and sisters up north and, you know, and their, their salmon abundance up there.
▶ 2:10:06But initially it's, it's collaboration. Um, working with um, chairman johnstone and, and our state and federal partners to come up with a resolution to that. So thank you for that question. >> thank you. Thank you for that response. Um, Mr. phillips, I'm curious to hear, um, just some some brainstorming. I've been chewing on this for a while and hearing a lot from my community about this.
▶ 2:10:34And, um, I'm curious to hear what you might think about a permit auction process or a, um, a lottery, um, some kind of guide, some process, um, where local fishermen and tribal members could bid, um, on permits to assist with lethal removals. I've had so many people tell me they would pay good money.
▶ 2:10:55Um, and with funds coming far short in our rural schools, uh, another revenue source, um, and, and a broader tie to the community that this is, this is a bigger part of our life than just eating. Um, so, um, you know. Yeah. Uh, what are you what are your thoughts? I understand there are a lot of points to flesh out here.
▶ 2:11:21Um, but I wanted to bring it up in a possible step in the right direction. >> yeah, I hadn't heard that one. Um, but I I'm sure there were folks would line up to to participate in that. Um, I think we need to be creative. I think we need to find tools to to address the challenge.
▶ 2:11:41Um, you know, I also think that we we need to be really careful, make sure we're investing in good science to monitor the outcomes of any type of programs that we implement or decide to implement. Um, and that that's that clearly is going to be the foundation of, of how we move forward. But, um, you know, I would certainly support being creative and coming up with unique ideas to. >> we got unique ideas over here.
▶ 2:12:09>> I still can't I can't even harvest an elk, so I probably wouldn't be pretty good at it. But. >> um, with the remaining time we have, um, miss dakota, um, I, uh, dakota. Excuse me. Um, I appreciate you being here to speak directly on the complex challenges to mitigating issues with the bonneville dam. Um, but I'd like to hear more about your perspective on expanding section 120 f permits to the tributaries. Um, and how, uh, this might help deter sea lions more effectively.
▶ 2:12:39>> yes. Thank you for the question. Um, absolutely. I think, uh, what we see on top of the bottlenecks is these, uh, confluence of of animals around, um, tributaries coming into the main stem of the columbia river. So I think the more we can, uh, again, this is learned behavior, the more we can disrupt this learned behavior earlier. Um, you know, near the estuary and coming into the columbia river that will prevent them from coming all the way into the the the lower river and into bonneville dam.
▶ 2:13:08>> yeah, that's that's a lot of what I heard is this is learned behavior. And you have to without any, without any clear feedback loop here. Um, you know, being being direct and being, um, I think respectful and communicating not with as, um, Mr. johnstone was saying, they, they don't read the, uh, the laws but to, to communicate um, uh, more clearly. So thank you for your insight. Thank you for your work. And I'll yield back my remaining 11 seconds.
▶ 2:13:49>> the chair now recognizes Mr. lamalfa for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. Um, I want to point out something I noticed in Mr. gluesenkamp, uh, poster earlier there that, uh, seal contrasted with a, um. Yeah. What's that, a toyota? Whatever. Okay, a more a more accurate description would be a 427 shelby cobra. Similar, similar in weight and length.
▶ 2:14:18So that that might make a more interesting poster next time, too. So, um, anyway, thank you. Um, I appreciate the conversation here. Thank you for our panelists, for your time and travel on this. And, um, uh, miss decoteau, um, I said that correctly. >> dakota. >> one more time. >> dakota. >> okay, I did hear her say that. I'm trying to say it. French I guess so, alright, good. Thank you.
▶ 2:14:43Um, what we've seen again, the willamette is that, uh, a dramatic drop in the steelhead extinction, uh, from 89 to 11% is the stat I have because of the targeted sea lion removal. And I got nothing against the sea lion, per se. But, you know, obviously, we have a big problem here.
▶ 2:15:06And, um, so, uh, in the time we've had so far today, do you care to elaborate more on, um, how more this approach could be brought across the whole, you know, much more of this whole corridor from really, uh, usa and north america as well. How much how much more can we be applying this? Do you have more thoughts on, um, on how this could help the populations up and down more of the coast? >> yes.
▶ 2:15:35Thank you for the question. Um, so, you know, the problem is you can't have a blanket approach, uh, for an entire system or even the west coast. Uh, there's so many, um, again, the geographic footprint and the landscape of each of these rivers and tributaries are vastly different from each other. And so you really need, um, targeted approaches for each tributary or, and in the mainstem, it's really just enormous in terms of, uh, the amount of water coming through.
▶ 2:16:03Um, all of the, uh, you know, it's a series of reservoirs. It's not a free flowing river anymore. Um, and so you have this opportunity for these sea lions to be there. And so they there's just more space for them to haul out, and they just don't get trapped as as much as they do. So, um, again, um, some of our recommendations are for, um, you know, for congress to, to look to our, our good partner, noaa, to see if there's, um, strategies or options or offer a roadmap, um, that we can consider moving forward.
▶ 2:16:33And then similarly, let's work with other agencies. We've heard that the army corps, um, has been doing some work in the midwest around addressing invasive species at locks and dams. And so how can we take, um, you know, issues or problems or solutions in other areas and potentially apply them to ours? >> yeah, that makes makes good sense. We have an issue on the klamath there.
▶ 2:16:56Where there where um, a um, an initiative to put more, uh, more, um, barriers on the irrigation systems there for, you know, fish screening has been lagging. And so we have farmers and ranchers getting into, uh, more hot water over inadvertent takes of, of, uh, a very low amount of endangered fish.
▶ 2:17:19And yet we have this problem here of, uh, mass amounts being taken by, by sea lions or even, uh, out outside of our, uh, um, international water jurisdiction, um, by just mass amounts of fishing. So I wish we could get more to have a do more to have a better rapport with agriculture on, um, on the very, very limited amount of risk ag causes versus, uh, the greater risk elsewhere.
▶ 2:17:47And, uh, and part of that, you know, as I mentioned in the klamath, is, uh, hastening the process of getting more fish screens in place on the intakes they have on the klamath for those districts. So, um. Do you have any thoughts on the what changes we should be making to the marine mammal protection act, which would give tribes more opportunity to balance the mammal populations or pinnipeds?
▶ 2:18:17That's that's the word of the day. I I'm I'm with you on that one. That's a new one. To me, it's a balance that population with the the great effort on the salmon restoration. Do you have any comments on that? >> yes. Thank you for the question. Um, we again in our my recommendations or in my testimony, um, we support amending the mmp really to extend this area based management authority not just to the willamette river, but all the way up the puget sound to the west coast.
▶ 2:18:46Because what we see is, you know, these animals aren't stagnant. They're coming into the system, but they don't stay there. They go back to the west coast, up and down the west coast. And so the larger area we can manage for the better we'll have success. >> um. >> all right, all right. Thank you. Appreciate it. Um, I, um, I still like that word pinniped. So I'm going to have to. Kind of. Yeah. Thank you, madam chairman. Appreciate it. >> thank you. And sounds like some good ideas there.
▶ 2:19:15And the chair now recognizes Mr. bumgardner for five minutes of questions. >> well, thank you, madam chair. And I greatly appreciate the opportunity to wave on to the committee to speak today. Uh, and to you, our panel of experts, for coming and testifying on this important subject. Uh, I represent a significant portion of washington state, and one that includes some of the largest fish bearing streams in the nation, including parts of the columbia river and the snake river.
▶ 2:19:43And I know how important salmon, steelhead and other fish populations are to our ecosystem. The health of our communities, and the cultural heritage of our tribes. And I also appreciate the work of the upper columbia basin tribes in eastern washington, including the colville, spokane, and kalispell tribes, and for leading the way in reintroducing salmon north of the grand coulee dam.
▶ 2:20:04Now, I am not a tribal member, but I did have the great privilege when I was a boy of spending two years, uh, playing basketball with a group of nez perce indians, uh, in lapwai, which was close to my boyhood home. And so twice a week I would drive down to lapwai. And my father was a forestry professor that did a lot of forestry work on tribal areas. And I've, uh, been at, uh, salmon fishing lakes, uh, with the nez perce. And I know how important it is to try.
▶ 2:20:34It's important to everybody, particularly the tribes. And I believe that one of the biggest areas of opportunity to collaborate across party lines is to get serious about controlling our sea lion populations. These guys are a problem. Uh, these mammals are one of the biggest impediments to fish restoration. On the west coast, the average sea lion can be up to 35 pounds of fish a day. They are a danger to west coast fisheries and eat hundreds of thousands of our salmon, steelhead and other fish every year.
▶ 2:21:01And I think one of the reasons that people get so frustrated with government is that everybody knows the sea lions are a problem. There's too many of them, and they need to be removed and reduced in populations. And everybody asks, what is taking so long? Salmon are so important to our region, and these sea lions are a discrete, uh, challenge that we can reduce. And it's nothing against the sea lions. Salmon are tasty. If I was out there, I'd eat them as well, too.
▶ 2:21:28But we have to give folks the tools to reduce these populations. Originally protected under the marine mammal protection act, sea lions have expanded precipitously along the west coast for the last 50 years, with a total population is estimated to have grown from 100,000 in the 1970s, up to 300,000 along the west coast. Today. In 2018, congress enacted the endangered salmon predation act to remove some of these sea lions. Some of these seals.
▶ 2:21:53However, as of may 2025, stakeholders eligible under the law have removed a total of 229 sea lions from our rivers and estuaries. Again, there are too damn many sea lions eating too many fish. They need to be reduced.
▶ 2:22:07We need to have the tools and as somebody that knows the taxpayers of washington state and the taxpayers of america are spending a ton of money to try to help salmon populations, it's extremely frustrating to me that, uh, folks do not have the tools to need to do what they're doing. And so I think the committee, uh, for this important hearing, I think this important group of people coming today, and I hope next year, uh, I will be able to come back and there will have the tools.
▶ 2:22:36And, uh, no offense to these guys, but a good number of them need to be killed and removed. And I hope that happens. And what we do today, uh, leads to having the tools to do that. We need less sea lions and more salmon. And with that, I yield back. Thank you for allowing me to participate, madam chair. >> thank you for coming to participate in giving us the line of the day.
▶ 2:22:56Uh, I want to thank all the witnesses for being here, for your valuable testimony, as well as for the members who participated in, uh, work to bring more attention to this extremely important matter. The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to those in writing. Under committee rule three, members of the committee must submit questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m. Eastern time on monday, december 8th.
▶ 2:23:24The hearing record will be held open for ten business days. For these for your responses. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.