▶ 0:52:37Subcommittee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on the Southern Poverty Law Center and federal civil rights policy. I'll now recognize myself for an opening statement. And before I begin, I just want to apologize to the witnesses and for the folks in the uh crowd and to my colleagues that we got started a little bit late. We were dealing with some votes on the House floor that ran long and I apologize to the witnesses um and appreciate your patience and appreciate you all being here today.
▶ 0:53:05The subcommittee meets to exam examine a troubling reality that one of the most politically motivated, financially lucrative, and ideologically extreme nonprofits in America, the Southern Poverty Law Center, has been permitted to wield extraordinary influence over federal civil rights policy, federal law enforcement training, and the private sector mechanisms that increasingly dictate who is permitted to participate in civic life.
▶ 0:53:28This is a far cry from the Southern Poverty Law C Center's early reputation as a group engaged in concrete litigation against civil violence and the KKK. But the SPLC has reinvented itself as a political fundraising machine built on an everexpanding ideologically defined hate mission. Since 2000, the SPLC has published what it calls a hate map, a physical nationwide map that places bright red markers over the approximate location of designated hate groups across America.
▶ 0:53:58The map is updated annually, amplified to the media, and used by activists and even federal agencies a as if it were a neutral intelligence product. How did we arrive at a point where a tax-exempt political organization can smear mainstream faith-based groups, parental rights advocates, even Muslims who reject terrorism, or student groups like Turning Point USA, and virtually anyone else who disagrees with its far-left ideology as extremists, feeding these designations directly into federal agencies,
▶ 0:54:28watching as violence follows, and then continuing to profit from the very fear it helps create. This is not neutral monitoring. It is a political weapon masquerading as a public interest watchdog. SPLC leadership openly admits as such with a spokesman stating plainly, quote, "Our aim in life is to destroy these groups, completely destroy them." End quote.
▶ 0:54:50This is despite explaining that their designations are strictly ideological, not based on criminality, violence, or danger, conceding that their hate group labels are based on opinion, not objective standards. And to illustrate just how far this mission creep has gone, the Center for Immigration and Federal uh Federation for American Immigration Reform, which are groups dedicate uh dedicated to evaluating the effects of mass illegal and legal immigration, are labeled as hate groups by the SPLC.
▶ 0:55:16The SPLC's November 2025 extremism tracking bulletin even flagged me personally, not for violence or lawlessness or any actual threat, but for legislative work on issues like border security and concerns about radical Islamism. A mere difference of policy opinion may land you on SPLC's hate map that has countless groups listed over mere disagreements.
▶ 0:55:39Moreover, these labels have real world real world consequences, including the 2012 armed attack on the Family Research Council, an attack in which the shooter admitted he selected his target directly from the SPLC hate list and used the hate map to determine F FRC's location. He then entered with 50 rounds of ammo and a bag of Chick-fil-A sandwiches he intended to smear on his victim's faces as a political message.
▶ 0:56:05And even after this attack, federal agencies continued relying on SPLC materials with the FBI citing SPLC classifications in at least 13 intelligence products on so-called radical traditionalist Catholics. We see the same pattern again more than a decade later when on September 9th, 2025, one day before Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the SPLC's Hatewatch newsletter singled out Charlie and Turning Point USA by name, labeling them dangerous extremists.
▶ 0:56:36And as with F FRC, in the aftermath of Charlie's assassination, there have been no retractions, no accountability, and no acknowledgement of the risks inherent in branding mainstream political figures as existential threats. These incidents, separated by 13 years, but linked by the same targeting architecture, underscore a sobering reality. The SPLC's designations don't merely stigmatize. They can serve as ideological permission slips for individuals already willing to commit political violence.
▶ 0:57:06We must examine how federal agencies from the Department of Justice and FBI to the Department of Education to even elements of the Department of War have relied upon or incorporated SPLC's briefings, training materials, or lists of so-called extremist groups.
▶ 0:57:21How did we allow a private organization with no objective standards and no accountability and a long history of internal corruption and bias to become embedded in federal civil rights Determining whose speech gets chilled, whose religious exercise is punished, whose organizations are suddenly surveiled, debanked, deplatformed, or targeted because a multi-million dollar activist nonprofit decided they were politically inconvenient.
▶ 0:57:48And the SPLC is just one in a sprawling ecosystem of left-wing foundations, foreign funding streams, donor advised networks, legacy media partners, and activist legal groups. This network deploys billions of dollars annually to shape public facing extremism narratives, pressure corporations into policing speech, and lobby federal agencies behind closed doors. encouraging the federal government to treat ideological disscent as a threat to civil rights law or domestic security.
▶ 0:58:18This is a broader ideological campaign designed to narrow the boundaries of acceptable speech to define traditional religious beliefs as dangerous to collapse the distinction between advocacy and violence and to shift the federal civil rights apparatus from its original purpose of protecting equal treatment under law toward policing political disscent.
▶ 0:58:38That is why this hearing is so important because we must recognize that only a select committee equipped with subpoena authority, forensic tools, and investigative staff can follow the money, map the coordination, and expose how partisan nonprofits embedded themselves into federal civil rights enforcement to intentionally undermine constitutional liberties.
▶ 0:58:57As the so-called targets of these systems are not violent extremists, they are ordinary Americans, parents, pastors, students, and community leaders expressing their values and exercising their constitutional rights. Civil rights law was not designed to punish people for holding biblical beliefs or advocating for secure borders. But the incentives for expanding these extremist categories are enormous.
▶ 0:59:20SPLC now holds over $829 million in assets with an endowment exceeding $738 million and tens of millions stored in offshore investment vehicles. Fear is profitable and these organizations have built a financial model around it. Today's hearing is a critical step to affirming a basic truth. The Constitution, not the SPLC, not wealthy donors, not activist bureaucrats, and certainly not political violence, sets the bounds of our liberty, and it is our duty to defend it.
▶ 0:59:51It is important, as we discussed this today, to remember that we are here to defend and protect the First Amendment. And we're not suggesting that we shouldn't have groups that are able to exercise all of their First Amendment rights and speak clearly and freely.
▶ 1:00:05We are saying that we ought to as an oversight body be looking into the connections and the networks and how they are extended into the decision-making of the federal government and how they are being used to target average and everyday Americans and the American people have a right to know and to see and to understand it. And with that, I will now yield to the ranking member for her opening
▶ 1:00:29Thank you and thank you to our witnesses for appearing today. Our Republican colleagues call this the subcommittee on the Constitution and limited government. When Democrats are in charge, we call it the subcommittee on the Constitution, civil rights, and civil liberties. But it's clear from this hearing and others that have preceded it that our colleagues idea of limited government only applies to the people and parts of our society that they agree with.
▶ 1:00:54Otherwise, this administration and its allies are more than happy to use the power of government to ruthlessly intrude in Americans lives. Whether it's interfering in people's private medical decisions made between themselves, their families, and their doctors, banning children's books, and censoring what history they can learn in school, or silencing people in institutions for speaking out or working for causes that right-wing extremists disagree with. Which brings us to today's hearing.
▶ 1:01:26This is just the latest act in a growing assault against organizations that serve an important function in our society. [clears throat] While today's hearing targets one particular group, the Southern Poverty Law Center, it's part of a much larger attack than on just one liberal institution. It's part of a broader strategy by the Trump administration and its congressional allies to silence and intimidate civil society.
▶ 1:01:52Civil society is not a concept that we've had to think about much in these United States of America because for the most part our leaders and government have generally respected our bedrock American values of free speech and thought and the equal and fair application of our laws even when applied to those with whom we disagree.
▶ 1:02:13Civil society is the diverse range of institutions and people distinct from our government that includes non-government organizations, universities, cultural institutions, religious congregations, clubs, the free press, social movements, and active citizens, indivisible groups.
▶ 1:02:31Civil society is a key part of our social fabric and serves all of us by providing information and opportunities for engagement, delivering important services, upholding our rights, and helping to keep our government accountable. These are organizations that Americans trust and contribute to because they support our neighbors and our communities and because they work to promote the common good and a better America.
▶ 1:02:55But this administration and some of its supporters have taken steps to undermine and dismantle these civic institutions in order to stifle dissent and consolidate power. In the words of conservative columnist David Brooks, quote, "What is happening now is not normal politics. We're seeing an assault on the fundamental institutions of our civic life, things we should all swear loyalty to, Democrat, independent, or Republican.
▶ 1:03:21This is a single effort to undo the parts of civilizational order that might restrain Trump's acquisition of power. End quote. These actions are right out of the authoritarian playbook. First, remove professional nonpartisan civil servants from key government agencies, especially watchd dogs, and replace them with loyalists.
▶ 1:03:42then weaponize these agencies against individuals and organizations that might stand in opposition to this administration's outofc control agenda and use the presidential bullhorn to undermine those who are meant to serve as a check on the administration.
▶ 1:03:56Whether it's the press, the courts, labor unions, religious institutions, professionals like doctors, lawyers, and Over the past year, we've seen this administration attempt to intimidate and seek retribution against elected officials who have sought to hold it accountable, as well as civil society groups such as law firms that brought cases challenging the president and his prior administration.
▶ 1:04:22schools and universities that it considers ideological enemies, media organizations, journalists, and comedians that have published or broadcast stories and jokes critical of this administration. Public interest groups that advocate for causes and viewpoints this administration doesn't like, and nonprofits dedicated to work that runs counter to this president's political agenda.
▶ 1:04:46Take for example the fact that late last month the Department of Homeland Security suspended federal funding for Catholic Charities of the Rio Grand Valley. Sister Norma Pimeontel, a close ally of Pope Francis, runs the organization and has been lauded worldwide for her humanitarian work with migrants.
▶ 1:05:05work that's put her and others who work with faith-based immigration services in the crosshairs of anti-immigrant politicians, particularly as Catholic leaders, including Pope Leo and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, have spoken out against this administration's dehumanizing rhetoric and cruel deportation activities. And we've seen these efforts to suppress opposition to the Trump agenda, aided and emedded by Republicans here in Congress.
▶ 1:05:30They've supported unilateral White House efforts to resend congressionally approved funding and bully the media, law firms, universities, and nonprofits despite their big talk about freedom, individual liberties, and yes, limited government. Instead, we now see this administration and its congressional allies attempting to paint ideological opponents as domestic terrorists.
▶ 1:05:55In September, the administration issued National Security Presidential Memorandum NSPM-7, singling out those that it would characterize as anti-American, anti- capitalist, anti-Christian, or otherwise hostile towards the so-called traditional views on questions of religion and morality.
▶ 1:06:15In other words, this administration and its allies are trying to redefine constitutionally protected speech against this president and his administration as domestic terrorism. This isn't a new playbook. During the McCarthy era, conservative ideologues tried to paint Martin Luther King Jr. and other civil rights leaders as dangerous communists. But it goes against everything our constitution stands for.
▶ 1:06:42So in that tradition of attacks on civil society as a whole, we've seen a cottage industry of meritless conspiracy theories grow and be leveled against the SPLC and other civil rights organizations. Groups that seek to ensure that all Americans are given a seat at the table regardless of race or gender or background. Throughout its history, the SPLC has done important work to identify hate groups and extremist threats.
▶ 1:07:07And it's exactly that work that has made the SPLC and sim similar groups prime targets for right-wing forces now. But ultimately these individual baseless accusations are just a means to an end. They're part of a larger goal to weaken and delegitimize the pillars of civil society. A strong, robust civil society provides the infrastructure we need for robust democratic self-governance.
▶ 1:07:35But right now, these organizations and individuals that stand up for us, the ones that people look to for protection against government oppression are under attack by this administration and its allies. We as Americans must push back because while today the target may be one particular group or those perceived to be part of one particular political ideology, the next day it could easily be you or me.
▶ 1:08:01Without civil society and the st stability and protection these organizations provide us to counter creeping authoritarianism and right-wing propaganda, all of our rights are at risk. Because our fundamental rights, the freedoms and principles we hold so proudly as Americans are only guaranteed if we stand up and defend them when they're under attack.
▶ 1:08:22So I yield back my time, but not my defense of our Constitution, our civil rights, and I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Rascin.
▶ 1:08:37Thank you, Chairman Roy, and welcome to all of our witnesses here. Lethal hate crimes are on the rise in America. We saw it at the Tree Life Synagogue. We saw it in Buffalo with the top supermarket. We saw it in El Paso, Texas, at the Walmart. We saw it in Charleston, South Carolina at church.
▶ 1:08:57We see hate crimes every day across The president does not talk about extremist racial violence or white nationalism, which the Department of Homeland Security just a couple years ago defined as America's greatest domestic terror threat. The Trump administration calls Antifa the most serious terrorist threat in the country.
▶ 1:09:19Although no one can tell us where it's headquartered, who its leaders are, what its structure is, how many members it has, or what crimes it is responsible for committing. The FBI in the last few months uh abruptly cut ties with the Anti-Defamation League, deliberately closing its eyes to uh episodes of anti-semitism that the ADL wants to bring to the attention of the country.
▶ 1:09:49The administration gutted the domestic terrorism operations section of the FBI, which has monitored threats by violent groups, including white nationalists. President Trump, in fact, has a history of disturbing actions in this field. He invited over for a lavish dinner at Mara Lago. Nicholas Fuentes, a vicious neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier who calls for annihilation of the Jews and self-proclaimed Hitler lover.
▶ 1:10:19Yay. Infamously, Donald Trump said he saw very fine people on both sides of an anti-semitic riot in Charlottesville accompanying the Unite the Right rally in 2018. Um, he saw very fine people marching down the boulevard which led into an anti-semitic riot. A confusion that has not afflicted prior presidents like Franklin D.
▶ 1:10:46Roosevelt, who knew exactly which side America needs to be on when Nazis are on the President Trump's immigration enforcement teams are encouraged to violate people's civil rights, arresting people solely on the basis of the language they speak or the color of their skin. The president calls refugees garbage. He calls the SomaliAmerican community garbage. He uses expletives to describe entire countries in Africa.
▶ 1:11:16He pardoned 1,600 riers who attacked the US capital and our constitution on January 6, 2021, including hundreds who plead guilty to or were convicted of violently attacking our police officers with baseball bats, steel pipes, broken furniture, and bear mace. Many of those pardoned convicts proudly carried Confederate battle flags and Nazi paraphernilia into the capital.
▶ 1:11:42And many of them since their pardons have gone on to commit other crimes against American citizens like terroristic threats, home invasion, armed robbery, rape, child sex, uh sex abuse material, trafficking, and so on.
▶ 1:11:59Now, in other times, Democrats and Republicans alike would rely on the Southern Poverty Law Center to help us keep track of the movements of violent white supremacy in the Um, [clears throat] the Southern Poverty Law Center has been a vigilant voice in civil society against radical white nationalist violence and extremism, neo-Naziism, and other forces across the political spectrum that spread organized
▶ 1:12:30hate from any quarter. The president, however, wants to undermine civil society organizations and to reduce our ability to defend ourselves against the vi the the virus of racial violence. The administration is engaged in a full-blown assault on civil society.
▶ 1:12:52the nonprofits, the law firms, the universities, the independent journalists who gather information information, research the white supremacist movement, and defend our freedom and our civil rights and voting rights in court. The majority, unfortunately, now has chosen to hold a hearing to promote its conspiracy theories about the Southern Poverty Law Center simply for exercising its First Amendment rights.
▶ 1:13:17If my friend, the chair, is shocked and horrified that a private group would call it uh would [clears throat] call out hate speech and violence where it arises, how does the chairman feel about actual government officials, accusing other government officials of various crimes? On November 20th, President Trump accused six members of the House and Senate of quote sedicious behavior from traitors.
▶ 1:13:41lock them up when all they did was to state the uncontroversial truth that members of the armed forces have a duty to refuse illegal orders. How does he feel about high-ranking presidential aid Steven Miller saying the Democratic Party is not a political party? It is a domestic extremist organization. Certainly, I think it's more dangerous when you have government officials engaging in speech like that.
▶ 1:14:07The Southern Poverty Law Center promotes non-violence in America, an interracial coalition and peace. To my knowledge, there's never been a single member of the Southern Poverty Law Center in its more than five decades of of existence that's ever been convicted of participating in a violent crime. But it is the target of this hit job today, part of this broader attack on the notfor-profit community.
▶ 1:14:37Long before the horrifying assassination of Charlie Kirk, which um I have vehemently denounced, the president and uh his allies have targeted law firms that represent clients he doesn't like, universities that don't follow a line of right-wing dogma and political correctness, and journalists who dare to report facts critical of the Trump administration's corruption and authoritarianism. them.
▶ 1:15:07They now simply are using Mr. Kirk's murder to engage in tactics imputing collective guilt, guilt by association, and guilt by pure invention against civil society groups that they don't
▶ 1:15:23This past September, President Trump issued an executive order purporting to designate Antifa as a domestic terror organization, even though a senior FBI official struggled just last week in testimony in Congress to explain how Antifa is even an organization [clears throat] after claiming without irony that it is the largest domestic threat facing the United States.
▶ 1:15:46More than 3,000 nonprofit groups have signed an open letter asserting that the national security presidential memor memorandum on countering domestic terrorism and organized political violence is not about protecting Americans or defending the public interest. It's about using unchecked power to silence opposition and voices that the president disagrees with. To put it bluntly, the Trump Justice Department seeks to redefine any kind of political disscent against him as domestic terrorism.
▶ 1:16:15That is a classic Orwellian and authoritarian tactic that anybody who loves freedom should reject. We must hold a hearing on the Trump administration's attempt to criminalize political disscent in the country. Instead, we get this hearing rehashing the same old lies about the Southern Poverty Law Center. Mr. Chairman, we can do a lot better than this.
▶ 1:16:38We should all be working together to oppose real political violence and terror which remain a plague on the land. We must denounce political violence across the spectrum and we should allow any civil society group to call out extremism, terrorism, fanaticism and violence as they see it.
▶ 1:17:00But today uh we miss the mark a lot by targeting one group only which has always proclaimed its fidelity to the constitution to civil peace and to nonviolence in the country. I yield back to you Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:17:16I thank the ranking member. Uh without objection I will introduce into the record a story by Snopes entitled No, Trump did not call neo-Nazis and white supremacists as very fine people. Without objection, all other opening statements will be included in the record. We will now introduce today's witnesses. Mr. Tyler O'Neal. Mr.
▶ 1:17:35O'Neal is a senior editor of the Daily Signal, where his reporting focuses on nonprofit organizations and where he looks into and investigates the flow of dollars and the uh the extent to which nonprofit organizations and how they're founded and how they're connected. Previously was an editor at PJ Media and Fox News and is the author of two books. Mr. Tony Perkins. Mr. Perkins is the president of the Family Research Council, a nonprofit organization that advocates for family centered policies.
▶ 1:18:03He is an ordained minister and previously served as the chair and vice chair of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom. Mr. Perkins also previously served as a member of the Louisiana House of Mr. Andrew Cipher. Mr. Cipher is the vice president of field operations at TurningPoint USA, a nonprofit organization that advocates for fiscal responsibility, free markets, and limited government.
▶ 1:18:28He oversees the organization's support of more than 2,000 high school and college chapters across the country. Miss Amanda Tyler. Miss Tyler is the executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, a nonprofit organization that advocates on matters of religion. She previously worked in Congress and private law practice. We thank our witnesses for appearing today and we'll begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and raise your right hand?
▶ 1:18:59Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief? So help you God. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative, and you may be seated. Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes. Uh, Mr. O'Neal, we will begin with you and I'll remind you to turn your microphone on and stay within the five minutes. Thank you.
▶ 1:19:28Chairman Roy, members of the imagine that an organization notorious for comparing mainstream conservatives and Christians to the Ku Klux Clan, which inspired a literal domestic terror attack, and has ties to Antifa, advised the federal government on how to counter the domestic terrorism threat. This Orwellian nightmare isn't a hypothetical.
▶ 1:19:56It actually happened in the Biden administration and it's the reason I'm testifying before you today. In the next few minutes, I will explain just how biased the SPLC is, its influence in the previous administration, and why this should concern every American. The SPLC gained its reputation by suing Ku Klux Clan groups into bankruptcy.
▶ 1:20:23But now it weaponizes that reputation, putting mainstream conservative and Christian groups on a hate map with clan chapters. It uses this map to scare donors into contributing to its $786 million endowment and to demonize its political and ideological opponents by suggesting opposition to its agenda is driven by hate.
▶ 1:20:50On the hate map are moms and dads who oppose critical race theory in schools. doctors who question the grotesque transgender treatments euphemistically referred to as gender affirming care and even lesbians and gays who oppose drag queen story hour. The hate map inspired a terrorist attack at the family research council in Washington DC.
▶ 1:21:17The man who opened fire at the congressional baseball game practice had liked the SPLC on Facebook and supported Bernie Sanders. The SPLC also added TurningPoint USA to the hate map mere months before Charlie Kirk's assassination. Yet, none of this led the Biden administration to think twice about working with the SPLC. The Biden White House hosted the SPLC at least 18 times.
▶ 1:21:47Biden nominated an SPLC attorney to a top federal judgeship. He touted the SPLC's help in the White House's strategy to combat More disturbing, however, was the SPLC's influence on federal law enforcement.
▶ 1:22:05The FBI's Richmond office cited the SPLC on radical traditional Catholic hate groups, and the FBI rushed to rescend the memo when a brave whistleblower published it.
▶ 1:22:19Yet, it seems the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division had no such compunction over its close ties to the In fact, the division's head, Kristen Clark, took a break from prosecuting pro-life protesters to meet with SPLC leaders and staff in March 2023. Also, when the SPLC added Moms for Liberty to the hate map in 2023, it shared an embargoed copy of the report with the Civil Rights Division.
▶ 1:22:50An SPLC researcher briefed DOJ prosecutors on the threat of the anti-LGBTQ movement. Why does this matter? The SPLC has suggested that merely quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church is enough evidence of anti-LGBTQ hate to land you on the map.
▶ 1:23:10For years, the SPLC defended itself from the charge of being anti-Christian by noting that it does not put every organization that upholds biblical sexual morality on the hate map. Yet, it only cited one piece of evidence for this claim. Its decision not to put Focus on the Family on the map. As it turns out, the language responding to the anti-Christian charge disappeared from the website recently, and this year, SPLC added Focus on the Family to the hate map.
▶ 1:23:41The SPLC acts as the left's ideological enforcer, narrowing the parameters of socially acceptable debate. Through the hate map, it suggests that mere disagreement with its agenda on immigration, critical race theory, or trans issues amounts to bigotry. This contributes to the hostile climate in which conservatives keep their mouths shut in order to avoid being accused of racism, islamophobia, or hate.
▶ 1:24:09It is no accident that activists use this hate map to deplatform conservatives or that activist groups have tried to pressure donor- advised funds to blacklist the SPLC's targets. Law enforcement should not rely on such a biased anti-Christian organization. And FBI Director Cash Patel was right to swear off this partisan smear machine.
▶ 1:24:34Americans deserve to know just how much influence the SPLC had in the Biden administration. And as Chairman Jordan recently noted, there is yet more to be Thank you for your testimony, Mr. O'Neal. Mr. Perkins, you now have five minutes. Remind you to turn your microphone on.
▶ 1:24:53Chairman Roy, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. On August 15th, 2012, our organization experienced firsthand what happens when inflammatory rhetoric is legitimized by respected institutions. That morning, an armed LGBTQ activist named Floyd Corkkins entered FRC's headquarters with a loaded semiatic pistol, nearly a 100 rounds of ammunition, and 15 Chick-fil-A sandwiches.
▶ 1:25:22He later admitted to the FBI that his intention was to kill the people in the building and stuff the sandwiches into his victim's mouths as a political statement. Corkkins is the first person convicted under the district's post 911 terrorism statute.
▶ 1:25:38And when the FBI asked him why he chose FRC, he told them plainly, "He found us via the Southern Poverty Law Cent's hate map." Two years earlier, F FRC became the first mainstream Christian public policy organization labeled a hate group by the SPLC. The SPLC not only placed us on a list, they published an interactive map pinpointing our location, doxing us and making us a target.
▶ 1:26:06Despite appeals after the shooting, the SPLC refused to remove us from their map. To the SPLC, the life-threatening gunshot suffered by our African-American building manager, Leo Johnson, was little more than collateral damage, acceptable if it intimidated Christians who uphold biblical teaching on marriage and human sexuality. As was stated, once upon a time, SPLC did legitimate civil rights work.
▶ 1:26:37But today, even former SPLC insiders have acknowledged the organization's internal ethical failures in ideological turn. SPLC is an activist advocacy organization that to use a sports analogy is not only a player, but they blow the whistle, call the penalties, claiming authority to decide who may speak while actively shaping the political fight themselves. Their hate map isn't research.
▶ 1:27:06It is a political weapon aimed at silencing viewpoints that the left opposes. And the legacy media is a silent partner with them. When FRC was added to the list, a Soros funded group immediately demanded MSNBC and Chris Matthews ban me from appearing on Hard Ball. Within days, the SPLC label functioned like a verdict, treated as an unquestionable fact without investigation or accountability.
▶ 1:27:35The result is the silencing of conservative voices. More troubling, government agencies have used SPLC materials to shape training and threat assessments. The Department of Defense previously used SPLC materials in trainings that cast suspicion on Christian organizations. Local law enforcement agencies circulate SPLC list as though they were intelligence bulletins.
▶ 1:28:00Schools have incorporated SPLC's material into curriculum presented to children as objective fact. Major corporations from online platforms to payment processors have used SPLC's label to deny services, restrict donations, and cut off basic financial tools to Americans.
▶ 1:28:20Once a group is branded, the SPLC label functions like a digital scarlet letter deployed to restrict speech, marginalize and financially ruin individuals and organizations. This is precisely the SPLC's intent not to fight violence, but to silence political and cultural opponents one way or another. The labeling is not without consequence.
▶ 1:28:48The SPLC's agitation propaganda has inspired more than one act of violence. In 2017, Congressman Steve Scaliz was shot and nearly killed by a man immersed in SPLC online ecosystem that relentlessly demonizes conservatives.
▶ 1:29:06Prior to the shooting, the SPLC had called for Steve to be removed from his GOP leadership Following this pattern, earlier this year, after months of SPLC targeting, Charlie Kirk was assassinated in an environment supercharged by ideological hostility towards social conservatives.
▶ 1:29:28The s the SPLC and other groups in this left-wing ecosystem create an environment ripe for terrorism. A form of terrorism in which influential public figures and media outlets use incendiary but deniable rhetoric to incite anonymous ideologically aligned individual to commit unpredictable and often violent acts.
▶ 1:29:54Government, the media, and corporations should not facilitate an organization that characterizes law-abiding citizens in a way that suggests violence against them is justified. The SPLC refuses to acknowledge its role in fueling this hostility. But denial does not erase If the SPLC is truly committed to reducing hate, then they should drop the gun.
▶ 1:30:23take down the hate map and stop feeding the dynamic that pushes unstable individuals toward violence. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, just after midnight on August 15th, 2012, I stood in the hospital waiting for our wounded building manager to emerge from a long and complicated surgery. When he did, I went into the recovery room to see him and to pray with him.
▶ 1:30:52Then I asked him the same question that the FBI agent asked when we were reviewing the video footage of the shooting. I said, 'Lo, this question's been swirling in my mind all day. Why did you not shoot Corkans when you had taken his gun and you had it trained on him as you were bleeding and about to leave lose consciousness?
▶ 1:31:14Leo said, "Because God told me not to." That kind of restraint, the belief that life is sacred, is what the SPLC refuses to acknowledge in the very people it labels as dangerous.
▶ 1:31:32If we want a freer, safer, and more just society, we must reject the SPLC's practice of ideological blacklisting and ensure the government agencies, media outlets, corporations, and schools stop outsourcing moral judgment to an organization that has long abandoned neutrality and morality.
▶ 1:31:53Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Uh, appreciate that testimony. We will be we'll give Miss Tyler some grace on her time as well. Feel free to use the time uh as needed. Mr. Cipher, uh you are now um uh have five minutes. Remind you to turn your microphone on. And right before you begin, I do want to say this. Um obviously all of us were horrified uh about what happened to Charlie uh in September. I can't believe it's been 3 months.
▶ 1:32:17And um I know that given your responsibilities and dealing with university chapters that you were physically present on the scene. Um just know that we're praying for you, for Charlie's family, for the entire TPUSA family. um and appreciate your willingness to be here. You're now recognized for 5 minutes.
▶ 1:32:36Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Andrew Cipher, and I am the executive vice president of field operations for Turning Point USA. In my many years leading our operations, I have overseen the chapter growth at colleges and high schools, building the largest campus chapter organization in the country.
▶ 1:33:00I've also managed our campus events, including Charlie Kirk's Prove Me Wrong Tables, where his passion for open dialogue with disagreeing students made him a social media giant, reaching millions of young people through tough, humanizing conversations. Over the years, Charlie and Turning Point have been attacked by groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center, which villainizes our open dialogue approach on campuses.
▶ 1:33:27The SPLC hastily labels ideologically opposing organizations as hate groups, misleading well-intentioned entities and blurring the line between real hate and mere differences of opinion.
▶ 1:33:41Charlie warned just before his murder that the SPLC's hate map designation equating campus kids who promote the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and pro-life, pro-f family values with the KKK and neo-Nazis would put Turning Point in the crosshairs. This proved prophetic.
▶ 1:34:03Just months later, an assassin took Charlie Kirk's life on campus during one of those open dialogue events that often lowered tensions and fostered healthy debate among young people. Charlie embodied what made America great, free Students flocked to these exchanges not just for entertainment, but to witness how conversations labeled triggering or hateful by the left could humanize even the toughest of opponents.
▶ 1:34:33This is the work we continue in Charlie's legacy. We reject the idea that more speech is hate speech. Hate fers when institutions shut down dialogue, creating divides and equating ordinary Americans with homegrown terrorism. What we call the coddling of the American mind. We have seen this animosity firsthand.
▶ 1:34:58I was standing just 10 feet to his left when Charlie was assassinated at Utah Valley University. An act later condoned and justified by some of the very people who labeled him and Turning Point a hate group.
▶ 1:35:16At places like Berkeley, where we recently held a presscheduled event, violent protesters gathered and injured This mirrors years of organized protests involving groups like Antifa, breaking doors, destroying property, setting fires, and intimidating our attendees. Since Charlie's death, political violence against conservatives has only I urge this committee to act decisively.
▶ 1:35:46We cannot allow biased organizations like the SPLC to arbitrarily dictate good and evil in our government and culture or to weaponize the hate label against ideological opponents. My hope is that this becomes America's turning point that we never forget Charlie Kirk's murder and that Congress confronts the brewing political violence in our midst. Thank you.
▶ 1:36:13Thank you, Mr. Cipher. Thank you for your testimony. Miss Tyler, you have five minutes and remind you to turn your microphone on and a little grace on the five minutes if you need it.
▶ 1:36:21Thank you. Good afternoon, Chairman Roy, Ranking Member Scandlin, members of the subcommittee. I am Amanda Tyler, executive director of Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty. As a faithful Christian and a patriotic American, I'm honored to be here this afternoon to offer testimony about why the treatment of civil societ society organizations is directly relevant to religious liberty and first amendment First, I mourn with the Jewish community
▶ 1:36:51in the wake of the deadly anti-semitic attack at Bondi Beach in Australia this weekend. This latest attack, fueled by anti-religious hate, is a tragic reminder of the need for a united front that will stand against every instance of violence and actively work to dismantle the ideologies that drive that For 89 years, BJC has worked to advance faith freedom for all.
▶ 1:37:19BJC has a consistent record of supporting both of the First Amendment's religion clauses, no establishment and free exercise. Our commitment to religious freedom stems from the historical experiences of early Baptists who suffered the pain of persecution that resulted from religious fervor coupled with the coercive power of the state. BJC works with a diverse group of organizations, both secular and religious, in various coalitions.
▶ 1:37:50Depending on the case or the policy we're working on, we may find ourselves on the same or opposing sides with other groups that work on religious freedom issues or other concerns that are crucial to our pluralistic democracy. Nonprofits, religious and secular, are essential to American democracy, creating opportunities for civic engagement, caring for neighbors, and standing up to abuses of power.
▶ 1:38:16When government attacks these institutions, especially during moments of instability, or when government services are strained, communities suffer. American civil society represents the broad diversity of the American people. Dissent and disagreement between these groups is a hallmark of a free society. We cannot conflate policy disagreement with dangerous conduct. Government and especially law enforcement should respond to facts, not ideology.
▶ 1:38:48Civil rights organizations, Southern Poverty Law Center included, are part of the essential infrastructure of American civil society. Civil rights organizations have historically helped communities in many ways, including documenting and combating discrimination and racially motivated violence, ensuring access to justice, providing education and services where government capacity is limited, supporting those targeted by bigotry or political retaliation, and
▶ 1:39:18strengthening democracy by defending constitutional rights. Today, as communities face rising extremism, political polarization, and gaps in federal support, these organizations remain crucial, often stepping in where government has stepped back. Today's hearing is not about one nonprofit.
▶ 1:39:39Instead, hearings like this one serve to normalize the idea that government should use oversight, enforcement, and public rhetoric to punish and make examples of organizations whose viewpoints or work challenge the administration's agenda. Such retaliation can chill advocacy, undermine constitutional norms, and threaten the independence of the nonprofit sector. Government targeting of nonprofits should concern all Americans.
▶ 1:40:08A functioning democracy depends on the ability of organizations across the spectrum of viewpoints to debate without fear of retaliation. What begins as political retaliation against the civil civil society organizations quickly becomes a threat to conscience rights, religious pluralism, and the foundational first amendment protections that safeguard all people and all faith communities.
▶ 1:40:34Religious liberty depends on a government that remains neutral when it comes to religion, neither favoring nor denigrating any religious viewpoint held by individuals and groups. Government misuse of its authority, whether through investigations, rhetoric, or selective enforcement creates a climate where religious people, houses of worship, and faith-based charities are put at risk.
▶ 1:41:00For faith to remain free, it must never be used as pol as a tool of political power. Religion must never be used as a proxy for threat or danger. There are no secondass faiths in this country. When the state elevates certain ideologies [clears throat] and stigmatizes others, it erodess both free expression and free exercise. A vibrant and free civil society is core to religious liberty in our country.
▶ 1:41:29as well as essential to achieving the promise of our constitutional democracy that all belong no matter how one worships, how one believes or how one identifies religiously or not. Thank you.
▶ 1:41:46Thank you, Miss Tyler, for your testimony. Uh without objection, uh the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs, will be permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of questioning the witnesses if a member yields him time for that purpose. Without objection, we will now proceed under the five-minute rule with questions. And I will now recognize the gentle lady from Wyoming for five minutes.
▶ 1:42:06Thank you and good afternoon everyone. We appreciate you joining here us here for this important discussion. The intended effect of SPLC's hate map is clear. By lumping mainstream conservative voices and organization in with actual Nazis and extremists, the SPLC delegitimizes any opinion to the right of whatever line the SPLC deems acceptable.
▶ 1:42:29Richard Cohen, the former president of the SPLC, when discussing whether Antifa would be listed, was quoted as saying that, quote, "There might be forms of hate out there that you may consider hateful, but it's not the type of hate we follow." End quote. In June 2020, the SPLC published an analysis stating that designating Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization is dangerous and threatens civil liberties. Let that sink in.
▶ 1:42:59According to the Southern Poverty Law C Center's website, its hate data list for 2024 includes 1,371 groups, up from 599 in the year 2000. Some of the groups listed include what we should expect, neo-Nazis, the KKK, and others.
▶ 1:43:17However, this list lumps in countless conservative advocacy or organizations including Alliance Defending Freedom or the Alliance for Defending Freedom, Moms for Liberty, Parents Defending Education, Turning Point USA, and the Family Research Council. Now, Mr. Cipher and Mr. Perkins, you have both testified about the impact and the consequences of the SPLC designating your organizations as hate groups. Could I I'm going to start with you, Mr. Perkins.
▶ 1:43:47Could you briefly describe or list off any of the common commonly held conservative beliefs that would lead the SPLC to classify your organization as a hate group? According to the SPLC, the reason is our biblical view of marriage and human sexuality. Uh that is what causes them to classify us as a hate
▶ 1:44:10And as a result, then you had the incident that you described during your testimony earlier. They actually put a target on your back, didn't they, Mr.
▶ 1:44:18Correct. If you'll recall back in 2012, there was a Chick-fil-A day where nationwide people went to Chick-fil-A because Chick-fil-A at the time had made a statement in support of natural marriage. And because we along with then Governor Mike Huckabe, now Ambassador Huckabe had promoted that day, uh, Corkans went to the F to to the map of SPLC to find F FRC and he targeted us.
▶ 1:44:42It was also he when he was c when he was arrested, he had a list in his pocket which had actually a couple of more Washington DC based organizations coming from the SPLC map.
▶ 1:44:54Okay. Mr. Cipher, can you describe some of the beliefs of Turning Point USA that would warrant a listing as a hate group by the SPLC?
▶ 1:45:03For the record, none. We have three core beliefs at Turning Point USA. Charlie would always state One that the constitution is the greatest document to ever be written. Second is that the USA is the greatest country to exist in this world. And lastly, that capitalism is the greatest economic system to lift people out of
▶ 1:45:24And as a result of those three core beliefs, SPLC has designated you as a hate group. Is that fair?
▶ 1:45:30Not at all.
▶ 1:45:32That's right. While there is no doubt that these designations can have a significant impact not only on the reputation and operation of listed organizations, tying them to the entities that are truly responsible for hateful acts and violent in violence, it actually inflames tensions and threatens individual safety, as you both described. One point that sticks out to me when looking through the cent's hate data is that very few, if any, left-wing extremist organizations and activities show up.
▶ 1:46:00To hone in on one of the more well-known examples, Antifa is conspicuously absent despite the SPLC's specifically maintaining categories for anti-government extremist groups and general hate. In a more recent example, the SPLC failed to specifically condemn the violent actors endangering Jewish students at American universities following the horrific October 17th attack carried out by Hamas and supported by radical Islamists, including many right here in the United States
▶ 1:46:30of America. Mr. O'Neal, could you briefly provide some insights on why they would exclude Antifa, pro Palestinian, and pro- Hamas organizations on American campuses? Jane's Revenge and other left-wing extremist groups from their hate data
▶ 1:46:47They have ties to some of these organizations, particularly with Antifa. They hired a woman who was described as Antifa's secret weapon, a researcher. um when it comes to I I can't speak to exactly why they don't, but what I can say is it is an absolute travesty that they will put organizations like Turning Point USA and Moms for Liberty as anti-government extremist groups comparable to the clan in their view and then not put actual groups that are hurling Molotov
▶ 1:47:17cocktails at government
▶ 1:47:20I think that you make a very good point and I'm out of time. Uh I yield back. Thank you all for being here today. I thank the gentle lady from Wyoming for her questions. I'll now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Rascin, for five minutes. Mr. Chairman, thank you. You know, maps are protected by the First Amendment. So, you can make a flat earth map. You can make a map of soul countries as designated by Donald Trump. You can make a map that calls the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America or the Gulf of Mexico. If you don't like somebody else's map, you make your own map.
▶ 1:47:50That's basic John Stewart Mill. That's what we do under the First Amendment. But we've got an entire hearing organized around one map published by one group. So look, I'm someone who's an ardent defender of the freedom of speech on all sides. And I think people also should be held responsible for the speech they engage in. Legally, we can hold them responsible only if their speech incites imminent lawless action and violence. That's the Brandenburgg standard.
▶ 1:48:20short of that or or engages in defamation, for example. But short of that, we hold them accountable morally and politically. So, there's nothing wrong with the process of saying, "I don't like your speech. I don't like your map." Uh, of course, it would be good if we had a real hearing that was about uh hate speech generally in the country or speech that endangers other people.
▶ 1:48:42For example, a number of the mass murderers who showed up in Buffalo or in El Paso and killed dozens of people themselves in their manifestos and their social media statement said that they were acting based on the statement that uh in the well-known conspiracy theory that George Soros is engaged in a plan to replace the American population, the so-called great replacement theory.
▶ 1:49:11Does that mean we can ban that speech? No, we can't ban it. But certainly we should talk about it and we should talk about the moral implications of people who engage in it. Same thing with people in the pro-life movement who call doctors and physicians who are OBGYn's baby killers. Uh which has led in many cases to doctors being murdered or violently assaulted or attacks on abortion clinics.
▶ 1:49:37So it is true that speech does have a real world effect even though in our society we only allow it to be punished if it's incitement to imminent lawless action [clears throat] or analogous to that. So Miss Tyler, let me ask you just uh I think that we don't want attacks now violent attacks against the Southern Poverty Law Center. Um if you and I know you don't work for them, you work for the the Baptist um committee, right?
▶ 1:50:05That's right. I work for Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty.
▶ 1:50:08But is the Southern Poverty Law Center a hate group like the Kuk Clan or the neo-Nazis? Do they proclaim interest in violence or nonviolence? And has anybody at the Southern Poverty Law Center ever been convicted of engaging in a conspiracy to murder or to engage in violence against anybody, including Charlie Kirk?
▶ 1:50:28I I know of no reports of of that violence and I I know of SPLC as a civil rights organization that tries to draw awareness to white supremacy and files legal legal action to uh protect our civil rights laws.
▶ 1:50:43Okay. So the way that we sort this out in an organized society under the rule of law is that if somebody actually engages in a conspiracy to murder or aids and abetss a murder or imminently incites violence against someone, they can be prosecuted. Short of that, if they engage in speech, especially the kind of speech the SPLC is involved in, which is trying to stop hate violence in the country, then we essentially leave them alone.
▶ 1:51:10except for some reason we've decided to have an entire hearing about one map created by this one group. Look, if we really wanted to promote nonviolent peaceful discourse in the country and to promote greater understanding and civil peace, which I hope everybody in this room could get behind, what would we be doing? What are you doing to try to promote civil peace and uh civil conversation and dialogue?
▶ 1:51:38Well, one thing we do at Baptist Joint Committee along with a number of other organizations is try to draw awareness to our first amendment protections for religious freedom um and to make space for all different views on religion and to help people um have some tough tough conversations including in religious communities. You know, one of the projects that we work on is something called Christians against Christian nationalism.
▶ 1:52:03So we don't shy away from difficult topics, topics that we believe um do contribute to um to different
▶ 1:52:11I'm running out of time, but just tell us finally uh what do you think is behind this really extraordinary attack on civil society organizations and particular groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center? Well, I I see this as an attack on civil society, as a way to try to quash dissent, as a way to chill advocacy. Um, and that I really fear for the future of our pluralistic democracy if groups and individuals succumb to the intimidation.
▶ 1:52:41I I think this is a moment that we all need to be leaning into uh our democratic society and participating like uh many of us have never done so before.
▶ 1:52:51Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank the ranking member, Mr. Raskin. I'll now recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Harris, for five
▶ 1:52:58Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to all of you uh on our panel today. You know, something that has been concerning to me is the Biden Harris administration's targeting of Catholics in Richmond for being so-called extremist. And it was thanks to the investigative work done by this committee that we learned that the Biden Harris administration relied on the Southern Poverty Law Center in its memo that labeled traditional Catholics as domest domestic terrorist threats.
▶ 1:53:28And I applaud FBI Director Cash Patel's decision to terminate the FBI relationship with the SPLC, although such a relationship should have been terminated a long, long time ago. Mr.
▶ 1:53:41Cipher, what does it say to you about the Biden administration's view of conservatives that they were using a resource that categorized conservative groups like ADF and Family Research Council among the likes of the Aryan Brotherhood and the Nation of Mr. Harris, thank you.
▶ 1:54:06What it shows is that the Biden Harris administration do not truly care about what most Americans believe. Turning Point USA represents what most Americans believe in the nuclear family. They believe in law and order. Those very things are the things that the SPLC uses in their very biased approach in targeting and labeling Christian conservative organizations.
▶ 1:54:31Well, thank you, sir. Mr. Perkins, your organization advocates from a Christian worldview, but was labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center for taking stances that align with simply biblical teaching. So, I want to ask you a few questions, Mr. Perkins. Is the Christian worldview hateful? No. Is affirming that there are only two genders hateful? No.
▶ 1:55:00Is believing God created marriage between a man and a woman hateful?
▶ 1:55:06No. It's the reason we're all here today. Is the Christian worldview that teaches the very morals upon which this nation was founded hateful?
▶ 1:55:16No, sir. And is disapproving of someone's actions mean that you hate them? No. The definition that the SPLC holds out is one that's trying to prevent violence. Words are not violent. When you're having a disagreement over public policy, you should be free to do so. And we advocate for their right and their freedom to do that. As a former police officer, as a Marine veteran, I've protected the First Amendment right.
▶ 1:55:45But what the as issue here today is not a map. It's who uses the map. Government agencies should rely on transparent peer-reviewed criteria, not partisan advocacy groups. And imple we should implement safeguards against unverified external lists used by government to target peaceloving law-abiding citizens. Well, according to a Gallup poll, 69% of Americans identify with a Christian denomination.
▶ 1:56:16Now, of course, you and I know that there's a diversity of beliefs within Christianity. But what does it say about the SPLC that they would label as hateful a group that aligns with the identity of the majority of our country?
▶ 1:56:31Well, that they are anti-Christian for one and biblical truth. And I would even question whether or not they are
▶ 1:56:39Thank you, sir. Mr. O'Neal, I worry that not every organization may have the resources to be able to deal with the consequences of being placed on SPLC's hate map. What are some of the challenges that you would see that may arise within an organization if they happen to land or be labeled a hate group by this group?
▶ 1:57:00Yeah, there are many challenges. It chills some donors who are afraid that because of the hate map design the hate group designation their their information might be leaked and then they would face repercussions for giving to an organization they believe in. But there are also you know I I have a list here of Alphabet used it for YouTube as a trusted flagger. Amazon Smile excluded conservative and Christian.
▶ 1:57:30And by the way, not always conservative and Christian. There are some very nonpartisan and even left-leaning groups on this map. Uh but they excluded them from Amazon Smile. Benevity, which um works with hundreds of companies to determine where their employees can give to charities, has bragged about using the SPLC hate map to determine which nonprofits can receive money.
▶ 1:57:55So there are many ways in which an organization can be negatively impacted by being put on this map.
▶ 1:58:01Well, thank you and thanks to all of you as witnesses and Mr. Chairman, thank you for bringing this before the American people. I yield back.
▶ 1:58:08I think gentleman from North Carolina. I'll now recognize the ranking member for some unanimous consent request.
▶ 1:58:13Thank you. Um I'd seek unanimous consent to introduce into the record several articles. The first would be from America magazine. Trump administration threatened Sister Norma Pimementil's migrant aid with a six-year funding ban that's dated December 15, 2025.
▶ 1:58:30Without objection,
▶ 1:58:31uh this is from the Catholic Standard Vance Spars with US bishops over their push back on Trump's immigration policy dated January 27th, 20
▶ 1:58:41and the US bishop's uh special message dated November 12th, 2025 addressing their concern for uh immigration policy of the Trump administration. Without objection, I'll now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee for five
▶ 1:58:55Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I I listened to all of your opening statements and the chairman and the ranking member and everybody here until I came down. And one thing concerned me, Miss Tyler, I'd like to ask you uh Mr. O'Neal said that the Southern Poverty Law Center was anti-Christian.
▶ 1:59:11It upsets me greatly when any group is anti-Jewish, anti-atholic, anti-Muslim, Does the Southern Poverty Law Center have any Church of God and Christ folks that maybe support him and Baptist Southern Baptist folk and Methodists, etc., etc.?
▶ 1:59:30Uh, so I don't work for the Southern Poverty Law Center. can't speak exactly, but I do I what I hear you saying is there there's a difference between being against a religion and being and calling out ideologies or um hate speech in this case, which is I I think what is the issue here that we're discussing.
▶ 1:59:48Is the Southern Poverty Law Center against Christian nationalism?
▶ 1:59:52Um I I think that they have named white Christian nationalism as an ideology to watch as something that does fuel uh hate driven violence. Can you define white Christian nationalism for me or?
▶ 2:00:06Yeah. So, white Christian nationalism is this political ideology that seeks to merge American and Christian identities into one. Um, put another way, white Christian nationalism suggests that to be a real American that one has to be a Christian. And it does uh provide cover for white supremacy and racial subjugation. But as I mentioned earlier, to be against Christian nationalism is not to be anti-Christian. I am a Christian.
▶ 2:00:34Um and I represent um many many more people Christians who are horrified to see our faith used to justify um discrimination, to justify exclusion, and in some cases violence. What are some of the other things that I know you're not necessarily a spokesperson for the Southern Christian Poverty Law Center, but what are some of the other things they stand for and in support and oppose?
▶ 2:00:59Yeah. So I, you know, I know them as a historic civil rights organization that stands against white supremacy, that stands against anti-semitism, um, that has brought critical litigation against the Kullex clan, that stands for supporting civil rights and making sure, particularly in the American South, that our promise of equal protection of the law and all of our other civil rights and liberties are protected to the fullest extent of the law.
▶ 2:01:25Well, I I think Mr. O'Neal and maybe Mr. Perkins both mentioned the history of this Southern Poverty Law Center being outstanding and I think Mr. Roy did too when they used to bring cases and I still think they do bring cases that are important and Julian Bond was a very close friend of mine and somebody I know Mr. Raskin knew and he was a great American and he was one of the founders of the Southern Poverty Law Center and Morris as well uh was was a very strong spokesperson for civil rights and and and a supporter. He was one of the founders. Uh m Mr. Mr.
▶ 2:01:55O'Neal, is there anything you can help me with on Christian groups that they necessarily not Christian groups, but the fact your statement that the Southern Poverty Law Center is anti-Christian? How how is the Southern Poverty Law Center
▶ 2:02:07Yeah. So, there is this document called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It lays out the belief statements for Catholics, 1 billion people across the
▶ 2:02:16Who's who is that? Southern Poverty Law
▶ 2:02:18No, this is published by the Catholic Church, by the magisterium of the Catholic Church. the Southern Poverty Law Center when they decided to put the Ruth Institute, which is a small charity in Louisiana, one of the groups that it finds it difficult to respond and have the money to respond to the negative defamation of the Southern Poverty Law Center. In justifying putting them on the hate map, the SPLC quoted, and they didn't just quote it once, they quoted it twice.
▶ 2:02:46They quoted the president of the Ruth Institute just saying that the Catholic Church believes, and this is the statement of faith for all Catholics. Remember, that homosexual activity is intrinsically disordered. The SPLC put that on there twice, suggesting that just believing what 1 billion Catholics ostensibly say they believe justifies you being on the hate map. If there is anything more anti-Christian than that, I'm not sure what it is. I
▶ 2:03:16I I don't quite get a What did the Ruth Institute do to have this SPLC come out?
▶ 2:03:21Yeah. So, the Ruth Institute advocates for survivors of the sexual revolution. That's what they call people who suffer from family breakdown. Uh the president of the Ruth Institute, Jennifer Robach Moors, has gone on the radio many times and she is a devout Catholic and she has cited the faith positions of the Catholic Church.
▶ 2:03:43It is those statements of faith from the Catholic Church that derived directly from the catechism that the Southern Poverty Law Center decided was hateful enough to site as evidence to put her on the hate map. They put her on the hate map.
▶ 2:03:56Yes, they put her on the hate map. They have not put the Catholic Church on the hate map. Though by putting her on the hate map in this way, they have suggested that the entire Catholic Church should be on the hate map. This is something I would love Democrats
▶ 2:04:10wrong to take one person, Miss Ruth Morris, and put her on a hate map and say that's the entire Catholic Church. I think I don't think Pope Leo would be put on that group. I wouldn't think. Well, Pope Leo stands for the faith statements in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a hateful document that justifies putting you on the hate map, then he belongs on the hate map logically based on the Southern Poverty Law Center's own presentations. Mr.
▶ 2:04:39Tyler, do you know anything about this lady or the group?
▶ 2:04:43I do not.
▶ 2:04:44Okay. Anything else, Mr. O'Neal that you that makes you think I know a lot of ministers that are Church of God and Christ codic ministers who support the SPLC and there are a lot of black Baptist churches not maybe not Southern Baptist churches and maybe there are black Southern Baptist churches too that support the SPLC. So the other aspect is and this is something I mentioned in the testimony that the SPLC for a long time because groups like Tony's have been put on the hate map
▶ 2:05:13the SPLC claims it isn't because they stand for marriages between a man and a woman. But that's essentially what it boils down to if you look at the history of why they chose to put them on there. The SPLC defended themselves from the charge of being anti-Christian for years. In fact, they changed this language once from anti-LGBT to and explaining on their website. So they they've stood by this.
▶ 2:05:37They said when they were called anti-Christian, they said, "No, we're not anti-Christian because we don't put every Christian group that stands for the traditional definition of marriage on the hate map." But they only evidence for this and that was that they didn't put focus on the family on the hate map. Then earlier this year, the language defending themselves from the anti-Christian charge disappeared from their website and they put focus on the family on the hate map.
▶ 2:06:05My time is up. Thank you for
▶ 2:06:07Mr. Cohen. I like spirit spirited back and forth in the way you handled that. I was happy to let it go over time and I appreciate your questions. I'll now recognize the gentleman from California for five minutes.
▶ 2:06:15Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I I agree with Mr. Daskin that the Southern Poverty Law Center has a right to say whatever it is that they want to say. Um, the reason we defend outrageous speech like theirs is because we have the same freedom uh as men and women of goodwill to call them out on it.
▶ 2:06:37And that's what I see as the purpose of this hearing today, to call them out for truly outrageous and patently unfair and and hypocritical allegations. Um, and I think that's the point that that Miss Hagaman was was making. You know, Miss Tyler says, "Well, this is an attempt to intimidate and chill uh SPLC's speech." Well, that's an interesting perspective considering the fact that the SPLC's stock and trade is to intimidate and chill the speech of anyone they disagree with.
▶ 2:07:07Mainstream conservative groups like Turning Point USA and the Family Research Council, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, Moms for Liberty, and the Center for For for Immigration Studies. Um M Mr. O'Neal, have they ever called out Antifa? You I I think did I understand you to say they actually had Antifa activists involved with their organization?
▶ 2:07:29Yes, they had a woman who was described as Antifa's secret weapon. She was profiled in Wired magazine describing her that way. She was hired full-time. And then they also had a man who is charged with domestic terrorism for his role in a Molotov cocktail riot in 2023. He is an SPLC attorney.
▶ 2:07:48Well, they're they're they're while they're calling Turning Point USA and Family Research Council hate groups, have they ever called out the uh animal liberation front for the vandalism and attack and violent attacks they've made or James
▶ 2:08:03Weather Underground?
▶ 2:08:04No. How about students for justice in Palestine or any of the Palestinian groups that uh have have responsible for for violence uh on our campuses for intimidating and in threatening and in some cases attacking uh Jewish students. Have they called out any of these as hate groups?
▶ 2:08:22That would be another no. Also, when the October 7th attack happened, they waited three weeks before issuing a statement and then they falsely accused Israel of targeting civilians. How about the Council on American Islamic Relations that was just declared a terrorist organization by the state of Florida? Have they ever called them a hate group?
▶ 2:08:40No, they work very closely with them.
▶ 2:08:42How about the Turtle Island Liberation Front that was just implicated in the news today in a massive plot to detonate multiple bombs throughout Southern California to create a mass casualty attack against Americans.
▶ 2:08:55No, no presence on the hate. Those are not hate groups according to the SPLC, but Turning Point USA, Family Research Council, uh, and the other mainstream conservative groups are. Do I have that correct? And Gays Against Groomers, which is an LGBT group that opposes Drag Queen Story Hour.
▶ 2:09:14I think the other question that's been raised is, well, why does this rise as a fit object for congressional hearing? It's simply because this group with assets of hundreds of millions of dollars has been advising both government agencies to direct their powers against these these Americans as well as uh uh advising uh uh financial institutions uh and social media uh and social media platforms of course the
▶ 2:09:44the the the the prime of uh public square of today's society. uh discouraging the very right of of these groups to even express themselves.
▶ 2:09:55Exactly. There are few organizations that engage in the shelling of civil society more than the Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 2:10:02I've got about a minute and a half left. I'll yield to Mr. Biggs.
▶ 2:10:06I thank the gentleman for yielding. And um so I will just echo one of the points you made is that the stock and trade of SPLC is to do exactly what the they're decrying other groups and that is to intimidate, bully, scare, and go after. Um and and so and in so doing, they make mistakes. I mean, they they made a mistake with F FRC. They make a mistake with Turning Point USA. Um here's one. I'd like to submit this article for the record.
▶ 2:10:35Southern Poverty Law Center settles lawsuit after falsely labeling extremist organization.
▶ 2:10:40Without objection.
▶ 2:10:42Southern Poverty Law Center apologizes to Ben Carson. Takes him off extremist
▶ 2:10:47Without objection.
▶ 2:10:49Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all
▶ 2:10:52Without objection.
▶ 2:10:54Has a civil rights stalart lost its way?
▶ 2:10:57Without objection.
▶ 2:10:59From the Freedom Socialist Party. Fighting hate. the lucrative business of fighting hate in-house bigotry rocks Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 2:11:07Without objection.
▶ 2:11:09And um with that, I'll just uh I'll I'll yield back because time is fading.
▶ 2:11:14I think the gentleman from California, I think the gentleman from Arizona. I'll now recognize Well, I'll recognize the gentleman from Tennessee for something for the record. I think
▶ 2:11:20exactly. Thank you, sir. Introduced for the record an article that the Southern Poverty Law Center filed a complaint against two notorious neo-Nazi leaders and Goyam Defense League, for whatever that is, for violating civil rights of members of the Nashville Jewish Center. Without objection, I'll now recognize the gentle lady from Washington for 5
▶ 2:11:35Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it's quite unprecedent un unprecedented for us to use committee time valuable committee time to target a specific group. And based on what I'm hearing, the criticisms of the Southern Poverty Law Center seem to boil down to three things. One, that it has healthy finances and an endowment. Two, that it collaborated with the Department of Justice during the Biden administration. and three that it calls out white supremacy, including white Christian nationalism.
▶ 2:12:05And I guess if my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are so hellbent on the finances of nonprofits, we could also talk about the Koch brothers funding tens of hundreds of millions of dollars to the Kato Institute and Americans for Prosperity. If they're so concerned about nonprofits collaborating with the executive branch, where do I even begin with the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025?
▶ 2:12:30Throughout his campaign, Donald Trump disavowed the conservative nonprofits policy blueprint when polls showed that it was deeply unpopular with the American people. But as soon as he took office, he made it the foundation of his policies by appointing at least half a dozen project 2025 architects and supporters to oversee the federal budget, mass deportations, cuts to health care and SNAP, dismantling of environmental protections, policies that harm all communities and disproportionately
▶ 2:13:00target communities of color. Now, maybe this shouldn't be s a surprise. president has a history of nominating or appointing officials with racist beliefs, including Paul Ingracia and Carl Higgby, the architects of Project 2025, also have a very well doumented history of writing racist writing uh statements or activity.
▶ 2:13:23And I won't repeat all of them here, but I do have a visual right behind me uh with just a couple of examples, including assertions that black people and immigrants have lower IQs than white citizens. We've known for a while that individuals differ in their inherent capabilities, that racists do, too, with whites and Asians on the top and blacks on the bottom. That was from Richard Hmania, contributor to Project 2025. How about this one?
▶ 2:13:50The ceaseless importation of third world foreigners with no tradition of taste for or experience in liberty means that the electric grows more left and less traditionally American, whatever that means, with every cycle. That's from Michael Anton, also a contributor to project 2025. How about this one? The prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against. That's from Jason Richwine, contributor to Project 2025.
▶ 2:14:20And just today, I was reading an article about a member of the judiciary committee who said, "It is time for a Muslim travel ban, radical deportations of all mainstream Muslim legal and illegal immigrants and citizenship revocations wherever possible. Mainstream Muslims have declared war on us. The least we can do is kick them the hell out of America." Do people understand that there's 2 billion Muslims across the world?
▶ 2:14:47That is 25% of the global population and I'm waiting to see if anybody on that side says anything about condemning those remarks about Muslims. So I think we should be very clear here about what is going on. And Miss Tyler, I just want to ask you, what role does rhetoric like these these quotes that I mentioned? Um, what role does it play in promoting white supremacy and violence?
▶ 2:15:17And what happens when we give people who espouse this kind of rhetoric more responsibility in our civic institutions? Well, rhetoric like this certainly furthers white supremacy and can further discrimination and potentially violence against marginalized communities, particularly in the minds of violent extremists when it combines with more extreme views like the great replacement theory as it has done and killed people in this country.
▶ 2:15:44Um, and when this rhetoric is also espoused by people who hold government power, members of these marginalized communities will fear not just that violence might come to their community, but also that the force of government might be used against them in various ways.
▶ 2:16:01Civil rights groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center have a long history of suing white supremacist groups for violent rhetoric and actions that target communities of color. What are some of those lawsuits and why are they critical for keeping communities safe?
▶ 2:16:15Well, I I think um Mr. Cohen just referenced a recent lawsuit that was filed uh that involved a Jewish community center and and some individuals who entered that with the intent to intimidate and and potentially commit violence. And they brought a lawsuit that included claims under the Kullex Clan Act.
▶ 2:16:36This is such important work and yet we're trying to undermine the SPLC simply because it disagrees with far-right policies and shines a spotlight on white supremacist ideology. How has the Trump administration used the power of the federal government to silence and weaken these groups like
▶ 2:16:54Well, we've seen a number of actions this year. Some of them are are rhetorical by blaming, for instance, Lutheran social service organizations, accusing them baselessly of money laundering that was in the early Doge attacks.
▶ 2:17:07And then more recently with the presidential memorandum, um that has this very broad language that tries to link ideologies that are really illdefined, ideologies like anti- capitalism or anti-Christianity, trying to link those without evidence to violent conduct.
▶ 2:17:25And the impact of that is that it will chill advocacy, that it tries to silence disscent because even if that presidential memorandum lacks the force of law since there are no [snorts] laws, you know, on the books around domestic terrorism, um they do serve to be a warning to groups that if you oppose this administration that you will come under um scrutiny, extra scrutiny like this hearing
▶ 2:17:49and a threat to free speech rights of some of us matter to all of us. I thank
▶ 2:17:53I think the gentle lady from Washington now recognize the gentleman from Missouri for five minutes.
▶ 2:17:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For more than two decades, the Southern Poverty Law Center has operated its so-called hate map, a project it claims is meant to track extremist organization, but which increasingly functions as a political weapon. Since its launch in 2000, the number of hate group the number of groups labeled as hate groups has ballooned from 599 to 1371.
▶ 2:18:22This dramatic increase does not reflect a sudden increase in ter in extremism, but rather SPLC's steady expansion of what it defines as hate, a definition that increasingly targets traditional Christian beliefs and conservative viewpoints. Uh, Miss Tyler, in your opinion, is Alliance Defending Freedom a hate group?
▶ 2:18:45I don't work for SPLC. I wasn't
▶ 2:18:47I understand that, but you came here today. The title, you know what the title of the hearing is? And you said some complimentary things about SPLC in your written testimony. Is in your opinion is is ADF a hate group?
▶ 2:18:57I I wouldn't use that term.
▶ 2:18:58Yeah, I wouldn't either. For an organization that argued 16 cases before the US Supreme Court, how about Turning Point USA? Is Turning Point USA, in your opinion, a hate group? Again, I don't speak for SPLC and I don't ask my organization I'm
▶ 2:19:10for yourself and your organization. Do you believe Turning Point USA is a hate group, Miss Tyler?
▶ 2:19:15Yeah. My organization doesn't label groups and I I don't
▶ 2:19:18How about Family Research Council? Is Family Research Council a hate group, Miss Tyler?
▶ 2:19:22Same answer.
▶ 2:19:22Okay. Is Focus on the Family?
▶ 2:19:24Same answer.
▶ 2:19:25A hate group. How about How about Prager
▶ 2:19:29I I I don't I don't have any of these labels for any of these organizations.
▶ 2:19:34Okay. You talk a lot in here about what constitutes a hate group and a white supremacist organization. Is is is Center for Immigration Studies a white supremacist organization?
▶ 2:19:43I'm not familiar with that organization.
▶ 2:19:45No. And um how about how about Catholics who go to Latin mass? Are they are they a a hate organization? Are they haters by definition?
▶ 2:19:56No, I don't I don't think so. Yeah. In your written testimony, you said BJC has a consistent record of supporting both the First Amendment's religion clauses, no establishment in free exercise. A little bit later, you said our commitment to religious freedom stems from the historical experience of early of early Baptists.
▶ 2:20:16And you said further that government targeting of nonprofits should be of a of concern to all Has your organization or you personally condemned the Biden administration's targeting of Catholics who attend Latin mass as hate groups?
▶ 2:20:33I I don't understand the question.
▶ 2:20:36Oh, well, the Biden administration, as you may know, the Richmond field office Latin mass Catholics as a hate group. And their their evidence for that was the Southern Poverty Law C Center's suggestion that those Catholics were hate groups. I mean, this is your wheelhouse here, right? Religious liberty, government, your testimony, government targeting of nonprofits.
▶ 2:21:02Have you or your organization condemned the SPLC and the Biden administration for targeting Latin mass Catholics?
▶ 2:21:11We speak consistently that religion should never be used as a proxy for
▶ 2:21:16Okay. Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Um, you um you don't think your organization uh focus on our family research council as a hate group?
▶ 2:21:28Or turning point USA or ADF?
▶ 2:21:31No. None of those organization, one of the things we all have in common, none of us advocate violence. And yeah, have any of those organizations, your own, any of the others that I just listed, if they ever committed arson, destroyed a police station, targeted a police officer or ICE agent, you know, maybe even overturned a patrol
▶ 2:21:53No, we've been the target of violence.
▶ 2:21:55indeed you have. Indeed, you have. So, how do you explain this list that SPLC has and that, you know, Miss Tyler, you know, refuses to, you know, answer. She doesn't have an opinion as to whether your organization's a hate group.
▶ 2:22:11The reason,
▶ 2:22:11how do you explain that list?
▶ 2:22:12Well, the difficulty is because it's not based upon any type of action. It's based upon ideology that the Southern Poverty Law Center disagrees with.
▶ 2:22:21And so, again, they have the freedom to speak and make lists. They could do it all day long, but it's when the government uses that list to marginalize citizens, you have taken a player and you've made them a referee.
▶ 2:22:33And isn't that why we're here today?
▶ 2:22:35That is exactly the Biden administration used SPLC's hate list, hate map to target, among others. I'm sure I'm sure.
▶ 2:22:44And so did the Obama administration.
▶ 2:22:46And so did the Obama administration. So that's what we're talking about. the SPLC in collusion with government
▶ 2:22:55yes sir
▶ 2:22:55religious groups and political groups with which with which the Biden regime and the Obama regime disagreed. Well, thank you for your testimony. Thank you to all the witnesses for being here
▶ 2:23:04Thank you gentlemen from Missouri. I now recognize uh the ranking member of the committee for use request.
▶ 2:23:10Thank you very much. Just two things Mr. Chairman. One is an article from April 18, 2024 in the New York Times. No bias found in FBI report on Catholic extremists and also Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.
▶ 2:23:23Without objection. And I will now recognize the gentle lady from Vermont for 5 minutes.
▶ 2:23:27Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. We're here today because Republicans are uncomfortable that a nonprofit has been uh has labeled several of their core organizations as hate groups. And I'd like to explore the facts and understand why the organization sitting before us today, particularly the Family Research Council, Mr. Perkins, uh, may have been labeled a hate group by the SPLC.
▶ 2:23:49FRC was designated as an anti-LGBTQ hate group by SPLC in November 2010 for its uh, dissemination of false and denigrating propaganda about gays and lesbians. The design designation was based on F FRC's pattern of spreading debunked claims linking homosexuality to pedophilia. Mr.
▶ 2:24:13Perkins wrote that quote, "While activists like to claim that pedophilia is a completely distinct orientation from homosexuality, evidence shows a disproportionate overlap between the two. It is a homosexual problem." Mr. Perkins also called the It Gets Better anti-bullying campaign, which is designed to save the lives of gay kids across this country who are being bullied mercilessly.
▶ 2:24:40He called it disgusting and part of a concerted effort to persuade kids that homosexuality is okay and actually to recruit them into that lifestyle. I would like to say for the record, nobody recruited me. I would have loved to have had somebody actually talking to me about my experience. Didn't happen. Doesn't happen. And if that's not enough, we have documented connections that Mr.
▶ 2:25:07Perkin has appeared at organizations that have been supportive of white supremacist groups. So, look, the SPLC did not make up these designations out of thin air. We have the receipts. And I just want to say words matter.
▶ 2:25:23accusations that an entire community is dangerous because of who they love makes LGBTQ Americans who live in all of our districts, every single district here, over 9% of Americans identify as being part of the LGBTQ community. So, it makes all of those people less safe. That's tens of millions of Americans.
▶ 2:25:46And I'm one of And as far as I know, I'm the only one that I know of on this committee that identifies, as I say, that I know of because the largest subsection of the LGBT community in this country is the bisexual subset of that organization. So again, that I know of.
▶ 2:26:08I'm curious, Mr. Perkins, are you familiar with um the app Grinder?
▶ 2:26:16With what? the app Grinder. Are you familiar with the app Grinder?
▶ 2:26:20No, it's I'm not.
▶ 2:26:22You're not? Okay. Well, I'll just say um it's a gay dating app. And I bring it up today because I'm so sick of the hypocrisy coming from the other side of the aisle. Did you know the Grinder app crashed at the RNC convention in Milwaukee? And do you know it crashed near the Charlie Kirk Memorial? This is no slate to all of those people who were there grieving. I'm just saying this is the reality.
▶ 2:26:50In your own ranks, in your own offices, there are gay Americans who desperately want you to stand up for them. And it is so disheartening over and over again to come into this and be told that that somehow I don't have a right to be here
▶ 2:27:13and that somehow I am making Americans less safe just by existing when tens of millions of Americans just want to live their life and be left alone. They want to be left alone. They don't want to have their lives dragged once again in front of this committee.
▶ 2:27:33Now, I appreciate your time being here today, but I wish that you would put your energy and focus on actually protecting Americans and not scapegoating individuals who are just trying to live their lives. Miss Tyler, thank you so much for joining us here today. And we don't have that much time. I needed to get that off my chest. How does scapegoating groups like the LGBT community that I am a part of fit into the authoritarian playbook? Because that is what concerns me.
▶ 2:28:04Yeah. Scapegoating groups or marginalizing them, using dehumanizing language. Um that all tries to make an example of one particular group. Um and it starts often with groups that are uh have the least power in in society and then goes from there. And so I think as Americans we should be about protecting every person in this country um and making sure that all of their civil rights and liberties are fully
▶ 2:28:31That's right. We need to push back. And I just want to say uh Mr. Cipher, I believe it was you who said earlier that the majority of the country uh stands with you against same-sex marriage. The most recent Gallup poll shows about 70% of this country supports same-sex marriage. And it's been holding steady at that number for quite a long time. and I yield back.
▶ 2:28:50I think gentle lady from Vermont, I'll now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin for up to five minutes.
▶ 2:28:55Thank you.
▶ 2:28:55I will I will note that votes have been called and I'm gonna try to work out what the timetable is to the extent that people want to speed things along. That may help us in our quest to finish before we have to go vote. I
▶ 2:29:05I'll comment again briefly. Uh the chair pointed out an article in Snopes. Uh no, Trump did not call neo-Nazis and white supremists very fine people. I would have thought that was so well known by now that the only reason people would say that is they knowingly lied and I think they should be called out for knowingly lying.
▶ 2:29:26Uh second thing in general we talk about hate speech or hate crimes and I think uh well I'm not either should be sanctioned outside of the crime itself or outside of the speech itself. Do you uh um do do you any of the witnesses, we can start with you, Mr. O'Neal.
▶ 2:29:50Should there be something as hate speech or a sanction against something called hate speech or should there be crimes with a separate penalty if it's a hate crime as opposed to a crime?
▶ 2:30:01I'm not here to testify on the specifics of hate crime law. Any of you guys have a comment?
▶ 2:30:08I believe we should focus on behavior, not ideology and not beliefs.
▶ 2:30:14Nobody wants to answer the question. I
▶ 2:30:17more speech is a good thing.
▶ 2:30:20Yeah, hate speech is protected speech in the constitution and then so for also speech that calls out hate speech must be protected.
▶ 2:30:29Well, at least you got the most conservative answer, I guess. Um, okay. Uh, Mr. O'Neal, why was SPLC founder Morris De's fired in 2017?
▶ 2:30:41Yeah, it's it's an interesting thing you bring that up. It was 2019. This is something uh our friends on the other side of the aisle seem not to remember. I I think uh Mr. Cohen praised Morris De's but Morris De's had longstanding accusations of racial discrimination and sexual harassment.
▶ 2:30:59It was in the context of that scandal that he was fired, that Richard Cohen, the long-term president of the SPLC, resigned and that the SPLC began the process of unionization, which led to accusations of union busting last year and the ouster of their mo most recent president, Margaret Wong.
▶ 2:31:18Okay. So, it's accurate to say that I guess you can describe SPLC about five years ago as just a big money-making racket. Is that true?
▶ 2:31:30I I would continue to describe it that way. I mean, not just it does do a few other things besides uh falsely defame conservatives and raise money by doing so. But that is the main um proposition value ad if their endowment donors
▶ 2:31:45about $700 million, right?
▶ 2:31:48their endowment is about $700 million.
▶ 2:31:51Yeah. $786 million.
▶ 2:31:54Okay. uh given the public record of retraction settlements and criticisms of SPLC methodology, why do you believe so many n this is a really good one. Why do you believe so many national news organizations rely on SPLC given that the blizzard of of legal I guess you'd call male fees they've been involved in.
▶ 2:32:16It's a useful political weapon not just for the legacy media but also for our friends on the other side of the aisle. It's it's also a useful weapon for Miss Tyler here. It was very interesting to me to hear her not stand by some of the accusations that Alliance Defending Freedom and Family Research Council and groups like that are hate groups despite the fact that she is constantly using Christian nationalism to demonize conservative positions.
▶ 2:32:42Okay. Um I tell you what, we're running out of time. Why don't I Well, we we'll give it back to you, Mr. Chairman. You can take the two minutes.
▶ 2:32:53I I I will that I will um yield the time if the gentleman's fine yielding time and I'll recognize the gentle lady from
▶ 2:33:00Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh I'll get right into it. Uh Miss Tyler, historically, the US government has not targeted conservative groups. It has targeted civil rights organizations like the NAACP, like Dr. King uh like the Black Panthers often labeling them as extremist or dangerous to justify surveilling them.
▶ 2:33:23Would the would the gentle lady pause for one second and I apologize for interrupting or I'll make up the time. Can I ask the witnesses real quick? We're trying to figure out votes. Votes have been called on the floor. Um we either are going to have to suspend and come back around 5:00ish to finish another 20ish minutes of questions. uh or we're gonna have to somehow truncate it. Are the witnesses able to stay and finish out at five for like 30 minutes if that's what we have to do? Yes. Okay.
▶ 2:33:53The gentle lady can proceed with her questions and we'll figure what we're doing.
▶ 2:33:55Okay. Um labeling them as extremist or dangerous to justify surveilling and silencing them. So, Miss Tyler, how does today's rhetoric accusing civil society organizations of weaponization echo uh those past government abuses used to silence or intimidate civil rights movements?
▶ 2:34:16Yeah, I definitely see some historical analoges to what you're speaking of, but I think what we're seeing now is even more extreme. Um because we see it, you know, with this congressional hearing, but also with actions from the administration that seek to, you know, again, with a very wide swath call out anything that falls into their view of being anti-Christianity or anti- capitalism, for instance, or taking what they view to be extreme positions on gender or
▶ 2:34:46immigration, that those could be singled out as domestic terrorist organizations with the full freight of the government behind it to uh to prosecute them in some way.
▶ 2:34:56Yes. And in fact, you know, Mr. O'Neal said a lot of things, but he did say that uh SPLC does a few other things. And so I want to talk about some of the few other things that they do, the great work. Um they have a continuous history of exposing antilack violence and white supremacist movements while defending the rights of those targeted by discrimination.
▶ 2:35:19In 2024, for example, the SPLC protected the voting rights of more than 3,000 Georgia voters after Cobb County failed to send absentee ballots on time. And in Alabama, the organization stopped an unlawful voter purge that would have stripped more than 3,200 naturalized citizens of their right to vote.
▶ 2:35:41So, Miss Tyler, how do watchdog organizations that track extremism, help to safeguard communities, especially those that have been historically targeted by hate
▶ 2:35:52So, so civil rights organizations like SPLC, they draw awareness to um to hate groups and and to and to help warn communities ahead of time when there might be violent action. Um, and it's important, you know, civil society, including civil rights organizations, play a vital role in the overall fabric of American society, and we need to have strong public part public private partnerships in order to keep all Americans safe.
▶ 2:36:19Absolutely. So, I I have some few a few other questions for you. Is would you say that the Kato Institute is like a Antifa allied organization? Would you categorize Kato as that?
▶ 2:36:34I would not.
▶ 2:36:35Okay. So, I wouldn't either. I think they're libertarian at best. But even the Kato Institute, I believe, released a report saying that since 1975, uh, people by motivated by hard-right ideologies were responsible for 63% of politically motivated murder. Does that sound Have you heard of that
▶ 2:36:58I have not.
▶ 2:36:59Okay. But I don't it
▶ 2:37:01we're going to trust KO today. How about that? And even I'm going to say that um you know there was um uh a killing of a representative from Minnesota, Miss Hortman, who was killed alongside her husband uh and her dog. And the police recovered many items um of uh the person responsible for um killing them.
▶ 2:37:23And I maybe you have heard, have you heard if they had also recovered like materials that this person had belonging to SPLC or other left linging left-leaning
▶ 2:37:37I have not heard that.
▶ 2:37:38No, I hadn't either. But what I have heard is that um the person was motivated uh by the false but racist great replacement theory, conspiracy theory, and in fact had a list targeting other Democrats um and wanting to go after them. In fact, it was a list of 70 targets. Uh not uh doesn't seem to me like that was a person that was uh connected to motivated by Antifa.
▶ 2:38:05And in fact, um, Miss Tyler, I don't know if you know this, but the S FBI actually took a down, right, stopped working with both the SPLC and also the Anti-Defamation League. Did you know
▶ 2:38:19I learned that earlier in this hearing.
▶ 2:38:21And so, what do you think about that? Well, I think that it's vital that our government meet with a broad variety of especially those that are um concentrating on rooting out white supremacy and anti-semitism in order to make all of our communities safer.
▶ 2:38:38Well, I would think I'm going to just enter into the record, Mr. Chair, because I know we're out of time the destruction of DOJ's civil rights division and why it matters.
▶ 2:38:46Without objection,
▶ 2:38:47and I will yield back.
▶ 2:38:49Thank the gentle lady from California. I recognize a gentleman from Texas for as for a few minutes.
▶ 2:38:55Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you uh for holding this hearing and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to be here and and very eloquently explaining uh your position. Uh Miss Miss Tyler, I want to start with you. You've you've written pretty extensively about what you call white supremacy and Christian nationalism. Is that correct?
▶ 2:39:13Yes, most specifically Christian
▶ 2:39:15Got it. Do you believe that white Christians are a problem? Uh, no.
▶ 2:39:21You've you've written that I've got an interview here. The transcript from an interview you gave in November of last year with the Interfaith Alliance where you wrote quote or you stated, quote, "White Christians have been more a part of the problem than a solution." That was in relation to uh your views on on Christian nationalism. Do you remember
▶ 2:39:41Yeah. I So, I'm including myself, right? I'm incl I am a white Christian and I'm saying that white Christians
▶ 2:39:47that's because of views on Christian nationalism. Is that right?
▶ 2:39:50Yeah. So,
▶ 2:39:50okay. Did you know that 34% of black Americans support quote unquote Christian nationalism? And that number is 30% for white Americans.
▶ 2:39:59I think that Christian nationalism is an ideology that every racial group, every religious group embraces or rejects to different extents.
▶ 2:40:08Do you think that black Christians are also a problem?
▶ 2:40:11So, I said no. I said we in this interview I have I have the transcript here. You stated in this interview that white Christians are a problem. I'm asking you if you uh have the same view about black Christians.
▶ 2:40:22So I think white Christians have done more than other groups to perpetuate white Christian nationalism and I include myself in that category.
▶ 2:40:30Black Christians support Christian nationalism at higher rates than than white Christians per the the statistics that I just read. So, Christian nationalism is an ideology that all different groups can can reject. And that's I think that's one social
▶ 2:40:45No, no, no. What my my understanding is that the the categorical uh the categorical condemnation only applies to white Christians and not to black Christians. That seems to be your testimony. So,
▶ 2:40:55so most of my work is working with white Christians. We've got limited time. I know. And I asked you about both, but we've got limited time. So, I want to so I want to move on here. I just wanted to clear that up um to make that very clear for everybody listening. Uh Mr. Mr. Cipher, I want to thank you for for being here. Has Turning Point USA ever advocated violence against innocent
▶ 2:41:17Never. Have they ever harbored as as an institution harbored racial animous against any group?
▶ 2:41:23No. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Charlie would always say disagreements come to the front. He wanted to talk with those that disagreed. He didn't want to talk to an echo chamber like we find so many places here in DC.
▶ 2:41:36Mr. Perkins, has Family Research Council ever advocated violence against any other group?
▶ 2:41:42Uh what have have they ever advocated racial animist or any other type of animist against any other group?
▶ 2:41:47No. To the opposite.
▶ 2:41:49Got it. And Mr. O'Neal, I'll end with you because we're trying to go quickly here. Um but why why do you think that the SPLC labels or has labeled TPUSA and the Family Research Council as as hate groups? They're effective organizations on the opposite side of the SPLC on various political and ideological
▶ 2:42:07Awesome. Thank you. And since we're out of time uh because of votes, I'll yield back. Mr. Chairman,
▶ 2:42:12I thank the gentleman from Texas for his indulgence. I'll now recognize the ranking member uh for as much time as she needs up to five minutes.
▶ 2:42:19Okay. Thank you. Um, I do think this has been a fascinating hearing in which uh there have been a number of attacks on a nonprofit civil rights organization which is was not called to testify in its own defense. So, uh certainly we've heard a lot of pretty far-reaching and apparently inaccurate statements about that.
▶ 2:42:40Um, Miss Tyler, I do appreciate the perspective you bring about the importance of our first amendment, um, particularly with respect to, um, the establishment clause and, um, the free exercise clause.
▶ 2:42:56Um the district that I represent in Pennsylvania is the site where William Penn first landed to establish a community um based on tolerance especially for Quakers who were freeing a Christian group who were fleeing persecution in their homelands. Um you've been asked a number of questions and you've referenced in your testimony doing work as Christians against Christian nationalism. Why is that important?
▶ 2:43:22So I approach this both as a faithful Christian and a patriotic American. As a Christian, I view Christian nationalism as a form of idolatry that causes us to confuse political and religious authority and to, you know, potentially worship government over God. I also see it as a gross distortion of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus who uh was all about love. And I think that it turns the gospel of Jesus into a false idol of power.
▶ 2:43:52And so as a Christian, I feel a calling to call out Christian nationalism. And as a patriotic American, I view it as a um as a way that we are not being true to our constitutional values of religious freedom for all people. um as stated in the first amendment um that people regardless of religious identity should all be equal in this country and that Christian nationalism betrays that constitutional promise. Thank you.
▶ 2:44:20I appreciate that because we've certainly over the course of this hearing heard a variety of opinions on things such as which which form of Christianity is the right one or or the one that we should be adhering to. We've certainly heard it with respect to um the abortion question. There's a variety of um opinions on on that issue among Christian and other sects.
▶ 2:44:42Um we've seen it increasingly with respect to this administration's uh immigration policies that there's a wide variety of policies and as you suggested um with a loving God who um councils uh respect for the dignity of all people, we've seen some pretty strong statements from our Catholic hierarchy as well. Um, I do want to enter into the record several I offer for unanimous consent.
▶ 2:45:09First of all, the December 15th letter to myself and Chairman Roy from the leadership conference condemning this hearing.
▶ 2:45:16Without objection.
▶ 2:45:17Uh, a December 16th letter from the Congressional Black Caucus expressing grave concern about today's hearing targeting the Southern Poverty Law
▶ 2:45:26Without objection. an open letter from 3,000 uh coalition a coalition of 3,000 nonprofit and nonpartisan organizations rejecting presidential attacks on nonprofit organizations.
▶ 2:45:40Without objection.
▶ 2:45:41And a December 15th, 2025 letter from the National Council of Nonprofits sharing their concern about the subcommittee's hearing today.
▶ 2:45:48Without objection.
▶ 2:45:49Okay, I would yield back.
▶ 2:45:51I thank the gentle lady I thank the gentle lady for her uh limiting her time. I appreciate the witnesses uh patience for coming here and when we were a little late starting. I'm only going to use about a minute here to wrap up with my normal questioning. Um I think that a lot of the things that we wanted to illuminate have been illuminated. The only thing that I want to just finish here with is and specifically for you uh Mr. decipher given the um circumstances of what occurred this year in se in September.
▶ 2:46:22Is is it your considered judgment and the considered judgment of the people that you associate with at TPUSA that the focus by not just the Southern Property Law Center, but by those that are trying to designate people for expressing free speech views and expressing their views on biblical principles or other principles that people find objectionable, but labeling that as hate and specifically SPLC, do you believe that that created an environment that led to the attack on
▶ 2:46:52most definitely. I find it ironic that a civil rights organization is marginalizing over half the country in their viewpoints. On college campuses, what you see is when people celebrate violence as we saw post assassination, it shows the sad state of this country and that means that communication and dialogue is dying. Charlie fought against that. That's why so many people crave to come to his permy wrongs.
▶ 2:47:22That's why they crave to see him work through those thoughts with disagreeers because people need to talk for violence to be done away with.
▶ 2:47:33Mr. Perkins, you stated earlier that it was your belief that the purpose of this hearing, as I share, was to focus on the extent to which not just the SPLC, but generally when the government is then utilizing these organizations effectively as a tool uh to carry out its objectives, that that's now a different world. That's not just talking about speech. That has an oversight function for us to understand how that labeling is then having an effect on our legal system, on civil rights in general. Is that correct?
▶ 2:48:01It is correct. And to Mr. Cipher's point, as the government elevates that voice and legitimizes that voice, the media takes it and runs with it, the dialogue that we had in this city and then in this nation 15, 20 years ago has ceased and it does lead to to the violence. The best way to stop the violence is to have the conversations and to allow people of differing views to speak even when you disagree with them.
▶ 2:48:30That's what a healthy nation does. The Southern Poverty Law Center is about silencing, not facilitating.
▶ 2:48:37I thank uh Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Out of respect for my colleagues who have shortened their time. I'm going to do the same. I appreciate the witnesses. That concludes today's hearing. We thank the witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee today. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the for the witnesses or additional materials for the record. And without objection, the hearing is