▶ 0:13:36Hands will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time. Subcommittee is meeting today to consider five bills. H.r. 926 by representative cohen. H.r. 3922 by representative neguse. H.r. 4038 by representative kim. H.r. 4684 by representative kennedy of utah. Grand entrance h.r.
▶ 0:14:046300 by representative hageman. I ask unanimous consent that the following members be allowed to participate in today's hearing from the dais. The gentlelady from wyoming, miss hagerman, the gentleman from tennessee. Mr. cohen, the gentlelady from california, miss kim. Without objection. So ordered under committee rule four f any oral opening statements at hearings are limited to the chairman and the ranking minority member.
▶ 0:14:33I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other members opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance accordance with committee rule three. Perrin. All without objection, so ordered. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Before turning to today's business, I want to recognize the passing of our friend and colleague, representative doug lamalfa.
▶ 0:15:04Congressman lamalfa was a committed champion for rural america and the west. He was a dedicated member of the natural resources committee, and though he was not formally a member of this subcommittee, you would never know it based on his frequent attendance of our hearings and his important work on federal lands policy. Just last month, I worked with congressman lamalfa to help lead a successful reauthorization of the secure rural schools program into law.
▶ 0:15:34The program provides critical funding to rural communities with significant federal forest acreage, supporting schools, roads, and other vital public services. He truly was a tireless and dedicated fighter for his constituents and rural america. Our prayers are with his family, friends and staff during this very difficult time.
▶ 0:15:59His leadership and passion for these issues, particularly on sound forest management, will be sorely missed by this subcommittee and by all who had the privilege of knowing him. As we remember representative lamalfa legacy, it is fitting that the bills before us today reflect responsible management and use of our federal lands and support for our rural communities.
▶ 0:16:24With that, we will now turn to the legislation before us the bipartisan wildfire response and preparedness act, introduced by representative kim, is a common sense proposal that would require the secretaries of agriculture and the interior to establish a standard response time for wildland fires on federal lands.
▶ 0:16:46Under this bill, agencies would be required to respond to wildfires within 30 minutes and deploy fire suppression assets within three hours of ignition. Many would be shocked to learn that no such standardized response time exists across federal agencies right now. Instead, decisions about initial attack are left up to subjective factors that vary across agencies, regions, and individuals.
▶ 0:17:14Aggressive initial attacks are critical to preventing fires from escalating into large, uncontrollable blazes that cause widespread devastation. Look no further than 2025 largest wildfire the dragon bravo fire at grand canyon national park, which did not have an aggressive initial response and ultimately burned 145,000 acres and destroyed more than 100 structures, including the iconic grand
▶ 0:17:45Canyon lodge. Establishing standardized response times to fight wildfires will improve accountability, speed, interagency coordination, and secure federal firefighting resources. Nationwide. Research has found that by establishing a standard response time of 30 minutes, we can reduce the number of fires by 25%.
▶ 0:18:05This is particularly important in high risk areas and during dry, fire prone periods of the year, when a delayed response can dramatically increase the scale and severity of the wildfire. Importantly, this bill's emphasis on aggressive initial attack also advances the goals of president trump's executive order empowering common sense wildfire prevention and response.
▶ 0:18:33With that being said, the best way to respond to wildfires is to prevent them from happening in the first place. That's why I'm hopeful that the senate will soon take up the fix our forest act, which overwhelmingly passed the house one year ago this month. I also want to highlight representative hagerman's grasslands grazing act of 2025.
▶ 0:18:57This legislation addresses a technical inconsistency in federal grazing law affecting national grasslands, managed by the forest service, the forest service oversees more than 193 million acres nationwide, including nearly 4 million acres of national grasslands.
▶ 0:19:16Although congress has long authorized grazing under the agency's multiple use mission, current law does not explicitly extend permit renewal eligibility to permittees on national grasslands.
▶ 0:19:31Representative hagerman's legislation aligns the federal land policy and management act with congress's existing definition of the national forest system, ensuring parity, transparency, and certainty for grazing permittees while supporting rangeland health and rural economies. This is a good bill that will benefit public lands, ranchers and lead to better management of our federal lands.
▶ 0:19:55Finally, we will consider representative kennedy's star-spangled summit act, which restores a local patriotic tradition in utah. For more than two decades, a local scoutmaster, robert collins, led an annual hike to raise the american flag as a symbol of community and american pride at kiva. Kiva peak near provo, utah, in 2022.
▶ 0:20:23That tradition was shut down when the forest service removed the flag, citing permitting restrictions. Representative kennedy's bill directs the forest service to issue a renewable ten year special use permit, at no cost, to allow the american flag to once again proudly fly over provo.
▶ 0:20:42This straightforward bill prevents federal bureaucracy from standing in the way of a locally supported act of patriotism and advances the goal, the goals of the president's celebrating america's 250th birthday. Executive order. I want to commend all the bill's sponsors for their leadership on the proposals before us today. I'd also like to thank each of our witnesses for traveling to our nation's capital to share your expertise and insights with us.
▶ 0:21:13With that. With that, we will move on to our first panel. >> Mr. oh. >> we will recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. huffman. Well, thank you, Mr. >> chairman, I appreciate that. Sorry for my slightly late arrival.
▶ 0:21:42Um, so I'm looking forward to this hearing, uh, many times over the last year, I have raised concerns about the administration's attempts to whitewash american history and rewrite the truth of our nation, which has not always been a disney film. Uh, there are parts of our history that aren't all gauzy and pretty, and it's important that they be told to us. I raised these concerns to secretary burgum, raised them to the national park service officials, raised them to my colleagues across the aisle.
▶ 0:22:12And, uh, president trump and the interior department have made it their mission. It seems to me, uh, to erase some of the full story of american history, starting with the president's imperial edict entitled restoring truth and sanity in american history and continuing as secretary burgum's order for the park service to remove history that he feels is, quote, negative. Uh.
▶ 0:22:37So as we begin 2026, we are officially kicking off the celebration of america's 250th birthday. I'm a proud member of the america 250 caucus, alongside, uh, more than 350 of our colleagues who represent a diversity of constituents, stories and experiences. And we should be celebrating the accurate and expansive version of american history. America 250 gives us a chance to do that.
▶ 0:23:04We should examine the good, the bad, and the ugly, the parts that make our story real and give us lessons to learn from. Because, as we've all heard, those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And in that vein, I want to highlight a bill on today's docket, Mr. chairman, that I think would lift up a lesser told story of our history. It is h.r.
▶ 0:23:25926, the fort pillow national battlefield study act, introduced by our colleague, representative cohen, who is going to be with us, I understand today. Uh, the bill would simply study whether fort pillow would be an appropriate national battlefield to be managed by the park service. And I think it's important for us all to know what fort pillow is all about.
▶ 0:23:48Uh, it was built by the confederate army on the steep bluffs above the mississippi river and henning, tennessee, strategically positioned there to protect memphis from a union naval attack along the river. And in 1862, the union army and navy seized control of the majority of the mississippi river and west tennessee. Union forces later moved into the fort.
▶ 0:24:10They used it as a recruitment center and a supply depot, but in april 12th, 1864, under a false flag of truce, confederate forces came back to the fort and slaughtered somewhere between 300 and 400 union soldiers, men, women, and children from the community as well, and nearly half of those soldiers were members of the united states colored troops, which were union army regiments primarily made up of african american soldiers.
▶ 0:24:38It was later confirmed by a subsequent congressional report that the majority of union soldiers at fort pillow were unarmed and murdered in cold blood. Uh, this became a tennessee state park in 1971. It was added to the national register of historic places in 1973, and was designated a national historic landmark in 1974.
▶ 0:24:59When the park service testified on a similar bill in 2019, they supported the idea of studying fort pillow to become a national battlefield. So, Mr. chairman and colleagues, I really think this bill is a no brainer. It helps us to create a full and complete picture of all of america's history, including the truth of why those union soldiers were killed.
▶ 0:25:25This is one of the many stories that we should be lifting up in our nation's 250th anniversary year. Uh, a story that the administration should be lifting up and certainly not trying to bury, um, our president should be using the 250th anniversary to preserve these sites. Tell the complete and complicated story, even the uncomfortable parts of the history of our nation, because our nation is stronger when we tell the full story. I thank you for including this bill, and I thank Mr.
▶ 0:25:54Cohen for his leadership and carrying it. And I yield back. >> the gentleman yields. We will now move on to our first panel, starting with representative kennedy on h.r. 4684. Sir, you have five minutes. >> thank you. If I might introduce my witness when he'll come. His name is tyler clancy, and he's a current representative from the state of utah.
▶ 0:26:23And I appreciate him being here to help me with h.r. 4684, the star spangled summit act. Uh, representative clancy is a law enforcement officer as well as a current representative of the area that we're talking about is his area, the 60th district in the state of utah. He's one of the youngest state legislators in the united states of america. You'll see that when he comes in, he does look like a boy. But I can testify he is he is truly a man.
▶ 0:26:49And, um, he has recently been appointed to a manly task, a significantly important task as utah state homeless coordinator. I wish him well in that significant service. He brings valuable boots on the ground. Insight into the utah families and communities that this bill will impact. Thank you, chairman tiffany, for allowing me to present this bill. And remember, this is an important bill that reflects the work of a fellow named robert collins, who's a boy scout leader.
▶ 0:27:16And over 25 years ago, he and his scouts were hiking to the top of cave peak. They were climbing a mountain is not a small thing for those that have not been to utah. It's a remarkable place. The altitude reflects low oxygen just being at altitude, and when you climb the mountains it's even harder.
▶ 0:27:35Even the fittest individual has a challenge with that, and that is a great challenge for scout troops and opportunity for these young men and women to be involved in an opportunity to climb up to a significant peak and then see the amazing vistas that are available when you've climbed a mountain like that. At the suggestion of the scouts that were accompanying him years ago, Mr. collins raised the stars and stripes there at the top of the peak, overlooking not just the county, but also the homes of these young men.
▶ 0:28:04This is the beginning of a tradition that involved not just the scouts, but also family members and members of the community that on an annual basis, would climb with Mr. collins to the top of keith peak and place this flag. The community tradition was brought to a halt in 2022, and Mr. collins was confronted by a citizen who claimed to be a member of the forest service.
▶ 0:28:25Sounds like it was a volunteer individual who claimed that and took a hacksaw to the flagpole, cut down the stars and stripes from the top of keith peak at great personal expense and not some small amount of toil. Mr. collins had for decades carried that flag up to show his patriotism through the summertime, and suddenly that was stopped. He was told by the forest service that the long standing tribute was inconsistent with agency policy, prohibiting structures or improvements on national forest system lands without a special use authorization.
▶ 0:28:54When the forest service was queried on this and there was an attempt to remedy the situation, he he was told that the forest service was sympathetic but unable to change the policy that they were adhering to. Mr. collins tried to comply with the letter of the law, but red tape and excessive bureaucracy, which we've talked about many times, Mr. chair, about in this committee, kept him from continuing this tradition.
▶ 0:29:19Robert collins has spent decades climbing a mountain out of love for his country, but was unable to wade through the federal government rules and regulations. Which is why my bill, the star spangled summit act, is necessary to help push through and ensure the right of one citizen to honor his nation in one area on behalf of his community. This bill will allow our community to continue the time honored tradition of the right to raise the stars and stripes in utah county. It reminds the people of utah county of the sacrifices that that flag represents.
▶ 0:29:45I want to take this opportunity to thank robert collins, on behalf of the people of utah's third district, for his decades of patriotism and the impact that he's left not just on the community, but also particularly on generations for the future. I also want to thank representative clancy for being here to speak in support of this bill. I urge every member of this committee to support this bipartisan legislation. Let the flag fly once more on the top of keith peak. And with that, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. chair. >> gentleman yields.
▶ 0:30:14I now recognize representative cohen for five minutes on h.r. 926. Gentlemen, the floor is yours. >> thank you, sir, I appreciate the committee and being here. And it's nice room I don't think I've ever been in. And nice to see more shoot all down here. That's a nice portrait. He was a great man. Um, the fort pillow national battlefield park study act would initiate a special resource study to determine fort pillow suitability and feasibility as a unit of the national park system. Mr. huffman gave a fulsome description of the bill.
▶ 0:30:43This was a battle just north of memphis, on the bluff. The union had the fort, and the confederates were 500 union soldiers or 1500 confederate soldiers, and the confederates. Gave the impression that they'd surrendered. And they came back and they got the high ground. They let them proceed forward. They got the high ground.
▶ 0:31:06And they with that, they were able to shoot into the fort and take the fort, and they killed about 300 soldiers, union soldiers, uh, the soldiers that were killed were, were. All races, all sexes. It was it was a lot of black soldiers, but there were a lot of white soldiers, and they just killed indiscriminately.
▶ 0:31:27And there was a group that studied this, uh, the joint select committee on the conduct of the war, which was the congressional investigative body during the civil war, said then followed a scene of cruelty and murder without parallel in civilized warfare. The rebels commenced an indiscriminate slaughter, sparing neither age nor sex, white or black, soldier or civilian. And they killed the 300 soldiers, union soldiers, most of them while they were attempting to surrender or running for their lives.
▶ 0:31:54After they cast their weapons down, some were scrambling down the bluff, and they were shot in the back because they were going down the bluff to towards the river. Uh, it became a rallying cry for black soldiers across the union, and there were 179,000 black soldiers in the union army in 19,000, in the in the union navy. And their call was to remember fort pillow and honor those who fiercely fought for the preservation of the union, with the knowledge that surrender was not an option.
▶ 0:32:18Uh, we there's some folks who've come here today, and I think they'd like to speak. And if there's time and opportunity for them to speak or to speak for the soldiers who lost their lives there and their descendants who have been tremendous advocates of these stories and of this legislation. Five of those descendants are yolanda burgess. Is she here? Miss burgess, thank you for being here, anthony bush. Yes, sir. Uh, and they traveled to be at today's hearing. I don't know about patricia tyson, john.
▶ 0:32:47Miss tyson, thank you. Um, john harney. And akinchi perfect attendance. Thank you. So they're here and they'd like to testify because this is this is an issue of much importance in my community. It's been remembered for years. It's just up the road from memphis, ironically enough, just across the river.
▶ 0:33:10Uh, at that point, maybe 20 miles to the south was the worst maritime disaster in our country's history. There were about a thousand union soldiers crammed onto a boat going north who had been prisoners in the war, and going up north to be reunited with their families and freed. And the boat, uh, sunk and a thousand union soldiers died there. It's in arkansas. So I've worked with rick crawford on doing something. They're they're doing a memorial there and a big, big program.
▶ 0:33:40But it is the largest maritime disaster in our country's history. But with that, I'd ask for your support and yield back my time. >> the gentleman yields. I now recognize representative kim for five minutes. H.r. 4038. >> thank you, chairman tiffany. And members of the natural resources subcommittee here. Thank you for allowing me to wave in and speak on my bill.
▶ 0:34:05But, um, I really want to thank the witnesses for joining, especially, uh, chief russell from the, uh, anaheim fire rescue and, uh, fire department. Thank you so much for making the trip from california to be with us to speak on my bill, h.r. 4038, wildfire response and preparedness act. It is really great to see you. And I want to thank you all and everyone who's working on the front lines, uh, for your service. Thank you.
▶ 0:34:34I represent california's 40th congressional district that includes parts of orange, riverside, and san bernardino counties. And I know all too well how devastating fires are in orange county.
▶ 0:34:48We still feel the impact of fires like the september 2024 airport fire in trabuco canyon that burned tens of thousands of acres, to be exact, about 24,000 acres, including federal land managed by the us forest service. What too often stands between a small ignition and a devastating fire is time.
▶ 0:35:14The time it takes to identify the incident, mobilize resources and begin fighting the fire at the scene. Yet today, there is no unified federal standard for how quickly that response must begin on federal lands.
▶ 0:35:32When federal response is delayed or inconsistent, the burden falls on the local fire departments, which are already stretched thin from being forced to deploy limited engines, crews and aircraft while waiting for federal resources to arrive. That gap leaves communities and first responders without the consistent support they deserve. That's why I introduced h.r.
▶ 0:36:054038, the wildfire response and preparedness act. This is a common sense, bipartisan legislation which would direct the department of agriculture and the department of interior to establish a national wildfire response time standard to evaluate any wildfire on federal lands within 30 minutes of ignition, and have fire suppression assets deployed within three hours to the greatest extent practicable.
▶ 0:36:37These benchmarks will help stop fires while they are still small and manageable, and compel federal agencies to act quickly. The secretaries would also be required to report to congress on how we improve federal coordination and readiness to help ensure local fire departments can work with federal partners when seconds matter the most. H.r.
▶ 0:37:004038 gives our federal and local firefighters and emergency managers the clarity they need to act fast, reduce property loss, and streamline government efficiency. Swift and coordinated action saves lives. So I urge my colleagues to join me in supporting this bill. Thank you. And I yield back. >> the gentlelady yields.
▶ 0:37:27And now we're going to move on to our second panel. I'd like to remind our witness that under committee rules, you must limit your statement to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the on button on the microphone. We use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. At the end of five minutes, the light will turn red and I'll ask you to please complete your statement. This gentleman is very familiar with those rules. I'd now like to introduce Mr.
▶ 0:37:59John crockett, deputy chief of the united states forest service. Deputy chief crockett, you have five minutes. >> thank you. And before I begin, I want to express my sincere condolences to the family, staff and constituents of representative lamalfa. He was a steadfast advocate and champion for the forest service's mission, and he consistently pushed for strong oversight and accountability in the work we do.
▶ 0:38:24He will be deeply missed, and we are grateful for his service and partnership throughout the years. Chairman tiffany, ranking member neguse and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to present the views of the us department of agriculture on four bills today. My name is john crockett, and I serve as deputy chief for the national forest system, as well as state, private and tribal forestry in the us forest service.
▶ 0:38:49These bills address a wide range of issues, from wildfire risk reduction to grazing policy on national forest system lands, and even a special use permit for a flagpole on a mountain peak for for provisions where we share equities. Uh, I defer to the department of interior. Under the current administration's leadership, the forest service manages the largest and most prepared wildland firefighting workforce in the world.
▶ 0:39:16We successfully put out 98% of our fires during during initial attack, keeping fires small so they don't threaten communities and and require large amounts of resources and service to the president's vision articulated in executive order 14308. Empowering common sense wildfire prevention and response. The agency is working with the department of interior more closely to align operations amongst the department's. The two bills before you today, h.r.
▶ 0:39:453922 and h.r. 4038, could help shape how federal agencies prepare for and respond to wildfires. H.r. 3922 directs gao to study the effectiveness of mitigation efforts across federal, state, local, and tribal lands. We support the intent of this bill and look forward to learning from the findings. H.r. 30 h.r. 4038 calls for national wildfire response standard and a joint report to congress.
▶ 0:40:14The proposed standard requires that any ignition on federal lands be addressed, assessed within 30 minutes, followed by a suppression deployment within three hours. Usda supports the intent and share the goal shares the goal of improving our federal response. We welcome the chance to work with the sponsors and the committee on the implementation details. H.r.
▶ 0:40:374697 would require the forest service to issue a special use permit for a flagpole on key peak lookout point on the uinta national forest. We support the intent of this bill and would like to work with the sponsor and the committee on technical concerns. I also want to note that the forest service already have the has the authority to issue such a permit, and would welcome the opportunity to proceed administratively, rather than through legislation. We are already in communication with the permittee.
▶ 0:41:05Towards that end, h.r. 6300 would amend the federal land management policy act to ensure consistent, consistent application of grazing policies across national forest system and grasslands in the 16 western states. This bill would provide the needed clarity and application of 43 U.S.c. 1752 across the federal lands.
▶ 0:41:29We manage specifically providing certainty and expanding our existing grazing authority on the national forest to include national grasslands. Usda supports this bill and look forward to working with the committee on technical technical change. We appreciate the committee's effort to streamline, streamline, streamline, and expand grazing opportunities on federal land. This concludes my testimony and my oral statement, and I look forward to answering any questions.
▶ 0:42:00>> thank you for your testimony, Mr. crockett. Now we're going to go to questioning. Uh, we will start with the gentleman from oregon for five minutes. Mr. bentz, the floor is yours. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Thank you, Mr. harker, for being here again. Um, I'm really interested in this. The 30 minute, uh, bill, um, because, of course, we all want to put the fires out as quickly as we possibly can. And I understand your concerns as reflected in your testimony, but what is it that we could do differently to more rapidly put these out?
▶ 0:42:29I know you say there's a 98% success rate, but I'm not sure exactly what. I don't know if that's the ones that you go out and try to put out and you put out 98% of them, or if it's 98% of those that you actually observe. So perhaps you could elaborate on that. >> absolutely. So let me provide clarity on the statement that I made around having a 98% success rate on initial attack.
▶ 0:42:54That means that we are providing rapid response, um, to initial attack, put the resources out on the fire and put them out while they're small. It's 2% of the fires that actually grow big, um, that go beyond the initial attack period into extended attack. And so 98% is is the number that we had for this past year. And it's been our number for, uh, for for almost decades.
▶ 0:43:22>> still not exactly clear on this, but are you saying that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of fires every year? Are you saying that on those that you attack, you put out 98%? Or are you saying that of the hundreds and thousands of fires you put out, 98%? >> I'm saying that for all of the fires that we have on on forest service lands, we initial attack and put out 98% of them early.
▶ 0:43:49>> well, I'm happy to hear that the the condition of our, uh, weather over the past 30, 60 days has been disquieting for those of us in the west. Um, we're not seeing the snowpack. Snowpack that we normally, uh, would receive. And we anticipate if things don't change, a really desperate fire season. And so, as this is an unfair question to you in many respects, but I'll ask it anyway.
▶ 0:44:17The question is, do you feel that you're adequately prepared for what could be a truly horrific season? >> uh, >> so so it's not. >> an unfair question. So here's my response. Congress, um, provides us the funding to hire the workforce that we need to have an operational, operationally ready and capable workforce. Uh, last year, you funded us to hire 11,300 firefighters.
▶ 0:44:42And we hired and, uh, met that goal of having that amount of operational firefighters on hand at the peak of our year in in july this year. We are in our hiring process now, and we expect to have that, that the same numbers in place, uh, to have operational operationally ready workforce to initial attack our fires. >> it turned out fairly well last year.
▶ 0:45:06Um, and there were many people running around with their, uh, exaggerating, if you will, what might happen as a result of the reductions in force early in the year. But that but did you see an inability, because of those reductions in force to adequately respond to the fires that occurred last year? >> yeah. So I. >> will acknowledge that we had, uh, impacts to our workforce overall in the forest service earlier this year, but we did prioritize keeping our firefighters on.
▶ 0:45:35And for those firefighters that did decide to to leave the agency, for whatever reason, we provided an opportunity for those individuals to to work on fires. And, uh, and so we did adapt and change with that as well. >> yeah, I think we visited a number of different forest service locations in my district back in oregon, and we were assured repeatedly that there were not concerns about workforce. And I was very happy to hear that.
▶ 0:46:03And it did play out exactly that way on the ground. So I'm very happy for the forest service's work. I have a question. The last minute I've got here about power line corridors through national forests, and this there's been great concern, uh, about power lines starting fires. And so the question becomes, are those corridors being appropriately maintained?
▶ 0:46:26And what we've learned, and I know this is true because I've checked it out, that lawsuits are filed by environmental interests to try to prevent the clearing or the expanding of these corridors. Have you seen that in your observation of forest service land and power line corridors through them? >> yeah. So we.
▶ 0:46:43>> do have litigations of, uh, of the work that we do on national forest, but we've got a good relationship with the industry and we, uh, we meet frequently, hear feedback from them on where we're having successes, as well as where we're having challenges with management of their their corridor as well as the lands outside of their corridor. And so we feel like we're making progress through that partnership. >> I'm happy to hear it. Thank you, Mr. chair. I yield back.
▶ 0:47:11>> gentleman yields I now recognize another representative from oregon, miss dexter, for five minutes. >> thank you, mister chair. And thank you, deputy chief crockett, for joining us today. Really appreciate it. Um, again, as an oregonian and the representative for thousands of wildland firefighters, I always appreciate the opportunity to discuss how we can better protect these workers and certainly honor their service to our communities.
▶ 0:47:33So, um, deputy chief crockett, I do not need to tell you that our wildland firefighters continue to face fires that are longer, more intense, and more destructive than ever. I am a pulmonary and critical care doctor. I take care of the lungs. And for the last two decades, I've treated patients suffering from the health consequences of wildfire smoke and toxic exposure.
▶ 0:47:54So my first question to you is, as wildfire seasons grow longer and more severe, do you agree that protecting firefighters from serious health risks is no longer optional, but essential to workforce readiness and retention? >> I do agree that it's essential. >> thank you. And it is critical that we work together on this issue. This is not a partizan issue. This isn't political. This is about people and keeping them safe. And it, um, is something that I really have appreciated.
▶ 0:48:21The steps the forest service has taken to improve firefighter safety, including the creation of the federal wildland firefighter health and well-being program. This program, as you know, is important because it supports the physical and mental well-being of wildland firefighters across the department of interior and the us forest service. So my second question, um, I understand this program relies on one time limited discretionary funding to address firefighters health and safety. What is the agency's plan once those funds expire?
▶ 0:48:51>> yeah, so we did utilize those funds to stand up the program in partnership with the department of interior. We want to make sure that funding is not a limitation for us. We want it to be incorporated into into the way we do business. The funding was definitely helpful, uh, for us to provide expanded mental health services for firefighters, and we want to incorporate it into the way we do business. >> I am so grateful to hear that.
▶ 0:49:15Um, as you also know, a culture of accepting early death as an inherent risk of wildland firefighting has been deeply rooted in the forest service safety handbooks provided to wildland firefighters make little or no mention of the long term health hazards associated with smoke exposure. This is low hanging fruit. We saw this with our structural firefighters decades ago. Um, these are things that we can take direct action to protect our firefighters.
▶ 0:49:41Um, will you commit to me here today that you will meaningfully work with me and others to help change that? >> uh, absolutely. We're already working towards finding solutions to have a permanent respirator. Respirator program. Uh, as you may know already, we have, uh, we don't have an osha approved respirator. And so, uh, without that osha approved respirator respirator in place, we can't put a mandatory program in place.
▶ 0:50:10So right now we have a voluntary one. But absolutely looking forward to working with you on it. >> no, I love to hear that. I mean, I don't love to hear that we don't have a mandatory. But I also have family members and friends who are wildland firefighters. And you have to be able to carry that equipment and use that equipment out in the middle of nowhere for a long period of time. So it's an area of intense research and development opportunity, I think. So, um, I truly appreciate your engagement on this issue.
▶ 0:50:34Um, as said, it's been an issue for decades, and I'm committed to ensuring that there's a path forward for wildland firefighters to also be safe out in the field. So, um, our comprehensive legislation to strengthen wildland firefighter health and well-being program is pending. We're actively working across the aisle and with our firefighters and others.
▶ 0:50:55Um, we want to make sure that you have the resources and authority needed to address smoke exposure, respiratory protection, and long term health monitoring. So I look forward to partnering with you and your colleagues to ensure we are truly honoring our firefighters and dedicating our resources to making sure they make it home safely, um, to their families and to keep our community safe. So thank you, deputy chief. I'll yield back the remaining of my time. >> gentlelady yields, and I'll recognize the gentlelady from utah for five minutes.
▶ 0:51:27>> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, Mr. crockett, thanks for being here. Um, I have a couple of questions for you. So my my colleague from utah just talked about the the issue with the special use permit, um, on a peak in utah.
▶ 0:51:41And you said in your testimony that you'd prefer an administrative solution and that you have the ability to do that, and it sounds really reasonable, but for the last five years, they haven't been able to fly the us flag on federal land, on a prominent peak where it's very popular. Um, can you explain why you think a legislative fix is not the right answer?
▶ 0:52:03And an administrative fix is the appropriate answer, when for five years they've been working to get an administrative fix and they're not there yet. >> yeah. So so thank you for the question. Um, so the, the basics of it is so why do something legislative when we can do it administratively? And, uh, it's my understanding that in december we did meet with, uh, Mr. collins.
▶ 0:52:27And after that, he's supposed to provide us with a, um, a proposal around the operation and maintenance of the flag. Uh, and then that would be part of that special use permit that would then be approved. >> well, generally, I agree with the idea that whatever has is the most efficient, uses the least government resources is the right way to solve a problem. But I'm I'm a little skeptical that we should go a, with an administrative solution when it's we've been five years without one.
▶ 0:52:57So I would love to work with you and and find that solution. Um, but we have a responsibility here in congress to oversee the agencies. If it's not happening, then legislation is is what we've got to work with. Um, I also want to ask you about, uh, my colleague, congresswoman hagerman's bill, you testified that h.r. 6300 corrects an inconsistency in flpma and aligns with recent appropriations riders.
▶ 0:53:23And and back to this idea that whatever is the most efficient way to solve a problem and uses the fewest government resources is probably the best way. Is it fair to say that this bill would replace year to year fixes with permanent statutory clarity? >> yeah, that that permanent statutory authority would, uh, would be an easy fix. And the technical correction that we asked for it it the current bill focuses in on the 16 western states. And we want it to be, uh, for all the states.
▶ 0:53:53So states like texas, uh, who has national grassland could participate in it. Uh, but this this would be a win win for, for the ranching and grazing community as well. Uh, because they wouldn't have to reapply, uh, for their special use permit. They'd be first in line. >> I agree, and we talk a lot in these hearings in congress, uh, with agencies about, you know, asking agencies to do more with less.
▶ 0:54:16It seems like when we have, uh, witnesses come before this committee from just about any agency, one of their complaints is that they don't have enough people. Their resources are stretched too thin. And so I just want to point out that this is one of the solutions to that problem. So do you anticipate that by standardizing the agency's approach to permits, this bill would reduce litigation and conflict and make permit enforcement simpler? >> um, so so the short.
▶ 0:54:44>> answer is the permit, the so the permits are the ones who are going to benefit from this because they won't have to, uh, go through a reapplication process or once their permit comes up for renewal, like I said earlier, they would be first in line, uh, and then the, um, the authorization would, uh, make the process faster. >> so that would save resources on your end, right? >> yes. >> it would. Okay. Well, that's everything that I had to ask. Thank you. And I will yield back the remainder of my time.
▶ 0:55:16>> gentlelady yields. And I'll recognize the gentlelady from wyoming for five minutes. >> thank you. Um, chairman tiffany, and for allowing me to wave on to this meeting of the federal lands subcommittee. And for your consideration of my bill, h.r. 6300, the grasslands grazing act.
▶ 0:55:35I am pleased that the subcommittee invited my constituent, ty checketts, who ranches on the thunder basin national grassland, to testify on the merits of this bill, because this bill is truly a grassroots product whereby producers brought their specific concerns and recommendations, recommendations to congressional offices. Section 402 of the federal land policy management act, or flpma, authorizes grazing permits for ten years on national forest and blm lands, with renewal eligibility subject to continued compliance.
▶ 0:56:05Grazing on national grasslands is designated by the bankhead-jones farm tenant act and authorized for ten years, but is not protected and recognized as an official use. Similar to flpma, ranchers with permits to graze on national grasslands are not guaranteed permit renewals and have experienced unnecessary hurdles from the usda in obtaining these renewals. H.r.
▶ 0:56:266300 amends to conform to congress's existing definition of the national forest system, providing statutory clarity regarding permit renewal eligibility on national grasslands. The current the statute's current lack of clarity regarding the broader national forest system harms producers with negative impacts on rangeland health and rural economies.
▶ 0:56:49So, uh, chief crocket, I just have a couple of questions about the clarification that you have requested us to make with regard to h.r. 6300. In your testimony, you indicate that my bill, the h.r. 6300, the grasslands grazing act, you recommend additional changes to the underlying statute to properly extend this bill to all ranchers on national grasslands, which would include texas.
▶ 0:57:15Um, and this would make it so that all all of the places where we do graze on national grasslands would be covered. Is it your testimony that striking limitation to the 16 contiguous western states would ensure that the bill's policy and solution applies to ranchers operating on grasslands in texas and all other states as well? >> yes. >> okay.
▶ 0:57:40And would expanding grazing access on all federal lands and all possible states align with the administration's stated goals to expand grazing access on federal lands? >> yes. >> okay. It is my commitment to work on an amendment to the grasslands grazing act to broaden its relief to all states which have national grasslands grazing, and there was no intent to exclude any particular state. We actually just used the existing language in flpma as it was before we were sought to change it.
▶ 0:58:08And it is my intent to always expand opportunities for american ranchers and producers in every state. It is clear that flpma grazing law needs more than just a single modernization proposed in the introduced versions of the bill, and I look forward to making further reforms to provide parity and relief for all of our american producers. With that, I thank you for being here. I thank you for providing us with that clarification. I look forward to working with you to make sure that it becomes a reality. And, Mr.
▶ 0:58:38Chair, I yield back. >> the gentlelady yields, and I'll recognize the gentleman from tennessee for auc. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chair. Uh, miss miss bush. Yolanda. Excuse me. Yolanda burgess has emailed a statement to the committee staff on this issue. And, uh, and Mr. fuchs, who's here, is also has a statement on, uh, fort pillow. And I would like to ask for unanimous consent for those to be entered into the record. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you, sir. >> you're welcome.
▶ 0:59:08I now recognize the gentleman from utah, Mr. kennedy, for his five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chair and chief. Deputy chief, thank you for being with us. Uh, you mentioned that the possibility of an administrative correction to this issue could be issued, and I'm certainly willing to consider that. Why is it for years then, that that has not been issued in this case of the star spangled summit act? >> yeah. So thank you for the question.
▶ 0:59:35So as I stated earlier, it's about, uh, getting the flag under special use permit. And I know it can be awkward for me to sit here and try to defend our actions around the american flag. And we have a responsibility to that. Any time there's an unauthorized use, put on a national forest. You know, our local managers are going to, uh, going to anchor to their guidance around what it takes to get it under an authorized use, which is a special use permit. Uh, we look forward to working with Mr.
▶ 1:00:04Collins on, uh, getting the special use permit approved and having the flag once again fly over the mountain. >> I'll just point out, for the record and for the public that's listening at this point, it's already three years of this individual's been banned from having a 20 foot flag and a five by eight flag on that flagpole. Sorry, it's a 20 foot flagpole and a five by eight flag fly.
▶ 1:00:26Between the early parts of june to october, the individual with the boy scouts and other community members that might hike to the top of this peak. They it's a it's a four hour hike. It takes half an hour to put this temporary flagpole up. It's between two rocks that he said he does this. He takes a small bit of cement to to cement the flagpole in between these two rocks.
▶ 1:00:48And when he comes back in early october to take that all down, he breaks the cement up, disposes, disperses it as if it was pebbles and rocks. This is not a permanent structure, but he's been told by the local forest service that it's a permanent structure that he puts in place. And it's interesting to think about this being the united states flag.
▶ 1:01:09It's, uh, local community member that brought up the initial protests with this and took a hacksaw to that 20 foot flagpole, as if putting a flag up as some sort of offensive event. It's almost a reflection of if this individual could get to the moon and kick the united states flag on the moon down. Maybe he just finds that to be offensive to to nature, that there's united states flag in various parts.
▶ 1:01:34But I don't understand why the while I do understand after being here for a year and and washington, D.C. it just takes forever for government, even governments willing to consider conversation with citizens to get anything done. So that's where the special use permit that I don't like us to have to take this path of legislation. But it's already been three years and no work has been done, and the local forest service doesn't seem to be willing to engage the way you seem willing to engage in this committee today.
▶ 1:02:04So I that discrepancy is something that I'm not clear on. Why is that discrepancy present? >> yeah. So, uh, so thank you for sharing the history. Um, and I can't attest to everything that has happened historically. Uh, but I'm here before you today to say that if Mr. collins, when Mr. collins submits our, um, his application for the permit and the plan for the operation and maintenance of it will expeditiously approve his permit. >> that sounds great. And I don't know how to get that in contract today.
▶ 1:02:31Um, but it's a it's a good public statement, and I appreciate your willingness. I think most people would see this as a reasonable thing. Tell me about the difference between a what I've described as a 20 foot flagpole, um, concrete and two racks to put a temporary structure in this individual would take it down. As I mentioned, he put it up in june and take it down in october is what he tells me. And he's been he's been told that administratively there's that's considered a permanent structure.
▶ 1:02:58Can you tell me why the that would be considered a permanent structure when the individual has not left it year round, and it's just essentially a crack in the rock that he's put this in and used some cement to kind of glue it in. Tell me about that. >> yeah. So let me take this approach, because if I try and have a conversation around the flag and the flag being on, uh, on the mountain, it's a no win situation.
▶ 1:03:21So think about any time somebody puts something on a national forest, uh, that's not authorized to be there via that special use permit. And that is the that is the mechanism that makes sure that if something if a flag is put up, that it's properly maintained or, or if a structure is put up, it's properly maintained, uh, and it doesn't pose a risk. And all of those things that are part of an operation and maintenance plan under a special use permit.
▶ 1:03:48And I know we're here to talk about the flag, and I just gave you my commitment around the flag. >> I love it. Thank you. And I'll just point out, for the public who don't know this area well, not that far away, there's a large y representing brigham young university on the side of y mountain, and that's been there for ages. And it was representative jason chaffetz years ago that had to get more than a special use permit. He had to get legislation to actually designate that area so that that y was not going to be torn down. Uh, we've got a big g on the mountain in my county.
▶ 1:04:19We've got a big y on the mountain. These are obviously human made interventions and are beautiful natural landscape. And I'm I love our natural landscape at the same point. Sometimes it takes legislation, Mr. chair, to actually move these things forward. So thank you, deputy chief, for being here and certainly want to engage in the conversations. And Mr. chair, thank you for the time I yield back. >> gentleman's time has expired, and I'll recognize the gentleman from idaho for his questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. crockett, thanks for being here.
▶ 1:04:50And thanks for your, uh, your testimony today. I'm going to deviate a little bit from the maybe the mainstream of the conversation just to share about the circumstances in my home state of idaho. I'm sure. I'm sure you're aware, generally. But just to frame this dialog, uh, we're somewhere in the neighborhood of about a million acres a year that typically goes up in terms of wildfire.
▶ 1:05:18This is a huge deal for us. And, um, it's almost well, it has created this kind of business of firefighting. I mean, it's a it's a major enterprise. It has to be for the circumstances right now. And, um, I want to just talk to you about that a little bit. We've got a study coming up here in the in the h.r. 3922, the cross boundary wildfire solutions act, which hopefully will shed some more light on this.
▶ 1:05:47But you work on this on a routine basis. I get exposed to it every time I go home in one form or another, because every seems like every constituent group that that I represent, that I meet with, this is front and center because it's in our backyard and it's mammoth. It's a mammoth issue.
▶ 1:06:05Um, in your view, uh, what what has been generally the reluctance for local involvement, the we've got resources, we've got state resources, we've got local resources. And I know there's been liability concerns. There's sometimes access concerns.
▶ 1:06:23But from your vantage point, what's been the reluctance, uh, generally speaking, for the forest service to engage with more local, uh, resources when it comes to fighting some of these fires. >> okay. Thank you for the thank you for the question. So, um, I'm actually not aware of any reluctances, um, what I would say is we have a lot of authorities now to work with state, local, county individuals.
▶ 1:06:51The good neighbor authority provides us with that flexibility to, um, um, to work across boundaries. We've got obviously, the legislation speaks to the healthy forest healthy forest restoration act that that does that. Um, we work through community wildfire defense grants and, um, so but there may be a local example that I'm not aware of where we're running into issues, but I do know we have that flexibility to work cross boundary just.
▶ 1:07:20>> for just for the sake of not using up this time right here. I would just like to connect with you and share a couple of thoughts, but I get the sense on the ground because we've had some forums and we're having more of those. There's concerns of liability, and I understand that if if someone gets involved gets hurt, you know, then how do we handle that? And I just need to get I want to I want to get that dialog going with you. There's also, I think in some areas in some regions there's a cultural component.
▶ 1:07:51Um, um, not in my backyard kind of protectiveness. And so I'm just going to share that with you publicly that, uh, that's something that I see and I would like to talk to you in the future. We'd have to do it right now. Sure. Um, so I'd ask for that meeting in advance. Yes.
▶ 1:08:09Um, the other thing I wanted to talk with you about is there are certain circumstances where, uh, there is a let it burn policy, and I know that there's got to be some rationale and some thought processes. Can you talk about that a little bit? Under what circumstances? Uh, are you generally, uh, supportive of, of the let it burn policy? >> so let me provide a clarification. Uh, so we don't have a let burn policy.
▶ 1:08:36Every fire that we get has a suppression strategy associated with it. Sometimes that suppression suppression strategy provides for direct attack. Sometimes it provides for indirect attack with broader containment. >> if I may, and I respect your I respect your response, but I'm using terms that come out of your own department. And that's probably their way of saying indirect. But indirect to some people means let it burn for a while.
▶ 1:09:05So I just want to clarify that okay. >> yeah. And so if if a fire has been assessed and we make a priority put to put resources towards other fires rather than that one, that's part of that local decision making around, uh, to go in direct. The thing that we want to anchor to is what are the values at risk.
▶ 1:09:27And so if a community is at risk, that is part of that 98% success rate that I mentioned earlier around doing initial attack, if the community is not at risk, risk, immediate risk, then that gives us more flexibility around what our response would look like. >> okay, I'm out of time, but I will be asking just to to meet with you to constructively have some more dialog on this. And thank you for being here and for your input today. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield back. >> gentleman yields. I'm going to ask a few questions of our witness. So, um, Mr.
▶ 1:09:56Crockett, you, um, the term is used. 98% of these fires are put out. Um, what if 98% is not success? You know, I think back, uh, when I was in school, 98% pretty good, right? You get an a, but what if 98% is not success? >> so let me speak to the 2% that generally is the fires that you see about, see on tv.
▶ 1:10:24Um, those are the ones that when they go beyond initial attack, uh, generally there's some weather related issue that pushes it beyond our ability to catch it small. And so we're managing with multiple circumstances at that point. And it also depends on the time of the year on the fire. And so if we're catching fires when we've got plenty of resources available to put towards it, when we're at a preparedness level.
▶ 1:10:48One, uh, but when we're at preparedness level five, which means that all of our resources are stretched thin and we're we're then managing that 2%, uh, 2% of the fires that have grown beyond the initial attack stage. >> is one of those contributing factors, the lack of harvest. >> um, so let me respond this way.
▶ 1:11:11If we are managing the forest, um, before the fire starts, it allows us to catch it early and a smaller state during initial attack. >> let me repeat let me make sure I heard that. So if you are actively managing the forest, it gives you a better chance to suppress that fire. >> absolutely.
▶ 1:11:36>> um, I understand the forest service has brought forced supervisors from across the country to dc to discuss the administration's goals to increase active force management and expand timber harvests from our federal lands. Um, can you talk about what is hoped to be achieved in 2026 by the forest service? >> yes. So thank you for the question. And yes, we do have all of our we call them line officers for supervisors.
▶ 1:12:03Some of our district rangers, uh, regional foresters, those that are responsible for implementing the activities on the ground. We do have them in town this week and setting leaders intent around what it means to, uh, implement our active management strategy. And we're finding that there are opportunities for them to do cross training and cross learning with each other as peers as well. And so this is anchoring to our priorities around implementing our active management strategy.
▶ 1:12:32>> I am going to yield and recognize the gentleman from colorado for his questioning for five minutes. I thank the chairman and thank the deputy chief for being here. And I don't have any questions for the deputy chief, but I do want to make a couple of statements. For the record, my apologies for the delay here with the competing committee hearing to this one, but nonetheless, I am grateful for this particular hearing and the bills that will be considering today.
▶ 1:13:00And I'm grateful that we can have an opportunity to come together on issues that I know we care deeply about on both sides of the aisle. With respect to forest health and the wildfire crisis, the wildfires that continue to metastasize across the western united states, uh, and challenge various communities, including communities in my state of colorado.
▶ 1:13:24We might not always agree on how to address these challenges, but appreciate that we continue to create opportunities for bipartisan action on this issue. And one of those ways in which I think we can make progress is legislation that I've introduced today, which I know we'll talk a bit more about.
▶ 1:13:41The cross boundary wildfire solutions act, uh, which ultimately ensures that we're studying existing federal programs, rules authorities for wildfire mitigation across federal and nonfederal lands, really improving collaboration between landowners and government agencies to help mitigate the most severe wildfire risks while protecting vulnerable communities. The legislation comes directly from the bipartisan wildland fire mitigation and management commission's report.
▶ 1:14:05Uh, we know that at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if the lands are federal, state, private or tribal. When a wildfire starts moving in, our response must be cross. Jurisdictional to this bill will help us better understand the authorities that we have and how to expand those to protect fire prone communities across the country, including the ones that I'm very lucky, really blessed to represent.
▶ 1:14:28Uh, with that, I know there are a number of other pieces of legislation that we're going to be discussing today, and I appreciate the deputy chiefs testimony regarding the same, and, of course, appreciate all my colleagues with respect to the pieces of legislation that they've proposed. And I will yield back the balance of my time. >> the gentleman yields. >> and if there are no further questions. >> we'll now move on to our third and final panel. Thank you, Mr. crockett.
▶ 1:14:56I'd like to thank the witness for his valuable testimony. While the clerk resets our witness table. I will remind the witnesses. Under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes. But their entire statement will appear in the hearing record. I'd also like to remind our witnesses of the timing lights, which will turn red at the end of your five minute statement, and to please remember to turn on your microphone.
▶ 1:15:20As with the second panel, I will allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning. >> yeah, yeah. >> first, I'd like to introduce the honorable tyler clancy, representative for district 60, in the utah house of representatives.
▶ 1:15:49Representative clancy, you are recognized for five minutes. Welcome. >> well, thank you, chairman tiffany and members of the committee. And I'd also like to add my condolences to the passing of of your colleague, congressman lamalfa. Um, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As mentioned by congressman kennedy, I represent house district 60, which is provo, utah, and the utah house of representatives. I'm here today to speak in support of h.r. 4684, also known as the star-spangled summit act.
▶ 1:16:17For generations, cliff peak has been a place where families hike, where scouts learn perseverance, and where our community looks out over the home we love. Long before modern trails, the peak held meaning for the northern ute tribe and later became a focal point for pioneers in the utah valley. For more than 20 years, provo resident robert collins has hiked that mountain after the snow melt to raise the american flag, and then return in the fall to respectfully take it down.
▶ 1:16:45He did this with his son, his scout troop, his neighbors, and with members of the community who came together to honor the ideals that bind us together. The peak in the flag at its summit is deeply woven into the cultural identity of utah valley. It stands out in the work of local artists as a defining silhouette on our skyline, and as a shared point of reference that is literally become the symbol of provo and the surrounding communities.
▶ 1:17:14Yet in 2021, the collins tradition was abruptly halted, not because it harmed the land or endangered the public. The hangup came from a federal permitting policy that treats a small seasonal flag display, the same as a permanent commercial structure, all but banning Mr. collins patriotic display and the star spangled summit act fixes that and lets our flag fly again.
▶ 1:17:36This bill directs the forest service to issue a special use permit for this one specific purpose and provides for review, renewal or termination if the terms are violated. In short, it restores common sense while respecting environmental stewardship. It's a shame our permitting process has become so far reaching that we need a bill to raise and lower flag somewhere. This is really the dark matter of permitting in america.
▶ 1:18:00These issues uniquely impact utah because nearly 70% of our land is managed by the federal government. Decisions that would normally be handled locally in other states often require congressional actions. In ours, our state has been suffocated by these federal rules. And to your point, congressman kenney, that's why it takes five years to put up and take down a flag. H.r. 4684 also connects us with something deeper.
▶ 1:18:28Uh, chris barnard, the president of the american conservation coalition, has talked about how our environment has connected us to our national character and who we are as americans. Further, president theodore roosevelt once wrote, the nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as assets which it must turn over to, the next generation increased and not impaired in value. He also believed that time in nature strengthened citizenship, courage and moral clarity.
▶ 1:18:57Standing on a pristine mountain peak above your home, looking out over the valley does exactly that, and moments like these connect us to place, to responsibility, and to, for many, to the divine. I also want to briefly recognize the meaningful work this committee takes on. The house natural resources committee has shown the ability to solve real problems.
▶ 1:19:16As recently as december, this body came together in a bipartisan way to pass the speed act, led by chairman westerman and congressman golden, to modernize a permitting system that had become slow, costly and disconnected from its original intent. That legislation sent a clear message that we can protect the environment while also restoring common sense to federal permitting. The star spangled summit act fits squarely within that same tradition. This legislation is targeted and grounded in practical problem solving.
▶ 1:19:44It does not weaken environmental stewardship in any way. It simply fixes a narrow issue where bureaucracy has overstepped. This proposed fix from congressman kennedy respects both the land and the people who care for it. As one of utah's representatives from provo, I can tell you, this absolutely matters to my constituents and to thousands of families across the utah valley.
▶ 1:20:04At a time when americans are hungry for institutions that work and symbols that unite, allowing the flag to fly once again over cave peak is a small but meaningful affirmation of our shared patriotism. I respectfully urge this committee to support this effort and to stand with utahns who believe that honoring our land and honoring our flag are not competing values, but complementary ones. Thank you, Mr. chair. >> thank you, representative clancy. I will now recognize Mr. ty checketts, president of the association of national grasslands. Mr.
▶ 1:20:34Checketts, you are recognized for five minutes. >> good afternoon, chairman tiffany, ranking member neguse and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify in support of legislative measures that grant equal rights to producers who hold permits and use federal lands. Currently, I serve as president of the association of national grasslands.
▶ 1:20:56I'm a member of the wyoming stock growers ncba, and hold the privilege of having a seat on the board of public lands council. Most importantly, I'm a husband and father trying to carve out a living as a rancher, playing my part to build a legacy for generations to come. My wife and I, with our children, own and operate the historic fiddleback ranch in northeast wyoming. We run about a thousand head of black angus on 65,000 acres.
▶ 1:21:24I affectionately say I am retired and on vacation because I love what I do. Federal lands make my dreams possible. Without land use permits, there is no way I could afford to ranch on this scale.
▶ 1:21:38The association national grasslands is an organization consisting of grazing associations and direct grazing permittees, working in cooperation with the united states forest service and the protection, improvement, development and administration of the national grasslands.
▶ 1:21:54We represent 30 national grasslands, grazing associations and districts with about 175 members that utilize a million aum and graze on roughly 4 million acres. The association national grasslands appreciates congresswoman hagerman's efforts in sponsoring and the subcommittee's consideration of house bill 6300.
▶ 1:22:18The proposed legislation seeks to give national grassland permittees the same due process rights that the bureau of land management and national forest permittees currently enjoy. The legislation will replace the words lands within the national forest with the words national forest system lands in section 1752 of the federal land policy management act, also known as flpma.
▶ 1:22:46During the congressional deliberations of flpma in 1976. Original language included national grassland permittees in the due process protections of U.S.c. 1752. However, the national grassland permitted protections were removed in committee. The final version of flpma admitted the national grassland permittees, granting those due process rights only to the national forest and blm permittees.
▶ 1:23:12The development of usda grazing regulation 36 cfr 222.3 resulted. This regulation creates two classes of permits forest service having more rights and national grasslands having less. The basis for these two classes is due to exclusion of the national grasslands in 43 U.S.c. 1752, congresswoman hagerman's legislation will remedy this long standing inequity.
▶ 1:23:39The proposed amendment would allow national grassland permittees to, following permit securities one the right to tenure permits two. First priority for receipt of new permit. Three entitlement to written notice of any permit violations and an opportunity to achieve compliance before cancellation or suspension proceedings related to the permit, and four in case of an emergency, no permit would be allowed cancellation without two years prior notification.
▶ 1:24:08These protections of the forest service and blm permittees currently enjoy would enhance the relationship between the forest service and the national grassland permittees by creating more stability and a clearer set of rules governing the relationship. According to the usda census of agriculture, the average age of ranchers is 58 years old. A lot of these producers are going to work until they can't and be forced to sell out, because the next generation needs a better foundation to forecast a more stable future.
▶ 1:24:37Putting the grasslands on equal footing will give the ranchers more confidence to continue producing high quality products as part of our national food security. Since 2017, the us has lost over 17% of cattle ranches. More than 150,000 operations. The national herd numbers are at a 75 year low, while consumer demand for beef has grown 9% over the past decade.
▶ 1:25:05We can't afford to lose any more ranchers, and we can't afford to lose any more aums. The value of grazing can't go unrecognized. More than 60% of the western beef herd graze on public lands, and more than 50% of the breeding use, due to the doi estimates, grazing generates $1.5 billion in direct economic impact to the west each year.
▶ 1:25:29Grazing generates 8.58 billion in the ecosystem services annually. Mr. chairman and ranking members of the subcommittee. The proposed legislation seeks to give the national grassland permittees the same due process rights of blm and forest service permittees currently. Enjoy. Thank you and I welcome any questions. >> thank you, Mr. checketts. I now turn to the ranking member of the subcommittee for an introduction of our next witness. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:25:58I'm honored to introduce our next witness and one of my constituents in fort collins, state forester matt mccombs from the colorado state forest service. Mr. mccombs has served the state of colorado as state forester since 2022 and has had a successful career across natural resources, forest management and government. He previously worked in the us forest service in both colorado and north carolina, served as an aide to us senators ken salazar and jon tester, and as a veteran deploying with the colorado army national guard in montana air national guard.
▶ 1:26:27He brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to his position and has certainly been a trusted partner for me in my office throughout his tenure with the colorado state forest service. So it is great to welcome Mr. mccombs back to the committee today. Good to have another fellow coloradan here in the hearing room and look forward to hearing his testimony. And I thank the chairman for his indulgence. Okay. >> thank you, chairman tiffany, ranking member neguse and members of the subcommittee, I really appreciate the opportunity to testify today.
▶ 1:26:57Again, my name is matt mccombs, and I serve as the state forester in colorado and director of the colorado state forest service. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. And I want to begin by thanking congressman neguse for his leadership in reintroducing the cross boundary wildfire solutions act. This legislation reflects the reality of how wildfire actually behaves on the ground, and represents a meaningful step toward, uh, forward.
▶ 1:27:19For, as the nation prepares for, responds to, and ultimately learns to live uh, alongside wildfire in colorado, wildfire has always been a part of our landscape and our ecology. Fire plays an important role in sustaining healthy and productive forests and grasslands, but we are experiencing today is fundamentally different in the scale, intensity and consequences. Uh, a warming climate, prolonged drought, accumulated fuels and expanding development in fire prone areas have dramatically increased both the likelihood and the negative impacts of fire.
▶ 1:27:48The 2020 fire season was a turning point for our state. The cameron peak fire became the largest wildfire in state history, burning more than 200,000 acres across federal, state and private lands. Beyond the immediate fire impacts, the long term consequences are still unfolding. That fire burned in critical watersheds that supply drinking water to many colorado communities, increasing the risk of flooding, sedimentation and long term treatment costs that will be borne by the state for decades.
▶ 1:28:17That same year, the east troublesome fire demonstrated just how quickly wildfire can overwhelm our traditional planning and response. In a single day, the fire crossed the continental divide, something many of us previously thought was unlikely, threatening the town of estes park in the, uh, in rocky mountain national park, it moved seamlessly across ownership boundaries, underscoring that fragmented land management leads to fragmented, fragmented outcomes. Wildfire occurs right on the heels of the east troublesome and cameron peak fire.
▶ 1:28:44A year later, the marshall fire reinforced an even more sobering reality wildfire. Wildfire is no longer confined to remote or forested landscapes. In december of 21, extreme winds drove a grass fire through a suburban communities along the front range, destroying more than 1000 homes in a matter of hours. Many of the affected residents did not consider wildfire, uh, to be a risk to their homes that have been exposed.
▶ 1:29:09Significant gaps in assessment, coordination, and preparedness, particularly in the wildland urban interface gaps that this legislation directly seeks to address. The cross-boundary wildfire solutions act reflects that, uh, what many of us that work in fire and forest management see every year, wildfire does not respect ownership boundaries, jurisdictional lines or administrative authorities. Fires move across federal, state, tribal and private lands based on weather, fuels and topography, not land ownership.
▶ 1:29:37In colorado, our most successful fuel reduction forest health projects are those that are planned and implemented across entire landscapes. When federal agencies, states, tribes, local governments, utilities, private landowners, ranchers are aligned around shared priorities, we see measurable reductions in risk, improve firefighter safety and better protection of communities and watersheds and infrastructure. Conversely, when projects stopped at property lines, we leave gaps that fires inevitably exploit.
▶ 1:30:05From a state perspective, this bill aligns squarely with what we know works. It emphasizes proactive risk reduction rather than reactive disaster response. It reinforces shared responsibility and across all levels of governance, and it supports that coordinated, science driven action that allows partners to move faster and more effectively before the next fire starts. Importantly, this approach also makes fiscal sense.
▶ 1:30:29Every dollar invested, mitigation and cross boundary planning reduces future suppression costs and disaster recovery expenditures and long term impacts to water supplies, infrastructure and economies. States like colorado are ready to be strong partners in this work, but we need federal resources that match the scale and complexity of the problem we face together.
▶ 1:30:48I also want to emphasize that in other states are experiencing this exact same challenge as many of the states represented today, uh, in this committee, uh, the same they're facing here in colorado. Many of our neighbors could share very similar stories in recent wildfires. That impacts.
▶ 1:31:03And I appreciate the opportunity to speak, uh, and strengthen on behalf of my fellow state foresters nationwide, united through the national association of state foresters, we share a common goal to conserve, protect america's forests and reduce risk to all lands across all boundaries. I'm grateful to congressman neguse and this committee for priorities, prioritizing solutions that reflect the realities on the ground and strengthen our collective ability to live with wildfire.
▶ 1:31:29I'm also grateful to the wildland fire mitigation and management commission for drafting the report, whose recommendations underpin this legislation, and to my colleagues in colorado, including colorado department of natural resources executive director dan gibbs, colorado division of fire protection and control director mike morgan, denver waters madeline mcdonald, uh, former undersecretary of state forester jim hubbard, uh, and scott miller of the wilderness society for serving on the commission. This legislation represents forward thinking, actionable approach.
▶ 1:31:58And it's it's ultimately going to improve our resilience to wildfire, one that recognizes wildfire as a shared risk requiring shared solutions. Thank you for the opportunity to speak, and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you. Director. Finally, I'd like to introduce Mr. pat russell, the fire chief of anaheim fire and rescue. Chief russell, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. >> chairman tiffany, ranking member and all members of the committee for allowing me the opportunity to testify today on h.r.
▶ 1:32:274038, the wildfire response and preparedness act of 2025. I'm patrick russell. I serve as fire chief of anaheim fire and rescue. With over 40 years of fire service experience and decades of frontline leadership, I have a clear perspective on these threats facing our communities today. Wildfires are not an occasional challenge for us. They are constant and escalating reality we face year after year.
▶ 1:32:50Unlike many other emergencies, wildfires can either be natural or human caused, often unpredictable and capable of overwhelming entire regions in a matter of hours. When response is delayed, fire behavior escalates. Risk to firefighters increase. Property loss threatens increase civilian lives are placed in jeopardy, critical infrastructure and cultural values are at increased risk. In 2025, we saw both progress and vulnerability.
▶ 1:33:19While the number of fires did not decline significantly, the total number of acres dropped sharply. This was encouraging, but driven largely by favorable weather and aggressive early response, not by a systematic change. Those conditions will not always exist. Early indicators already point to a more active 2026 fire season at anaheim fire and rescue. We are proud of our capabilities, but wildfire response is never a local effort alone.
▶ 1:33:46It is a shared responsibility among federal, state and local partners, especially during the initial attack when minutes matter most when federal resources are delayed or unavailable, the consequences are immediate. Small fires grow into major incidents. State and local agencies stretched beyond capacity. Response times increase, firefighter safety is compromised, and civilian lives and property are placed at a greater risk. This strain is not sustainable.
▶ 1:34:15There is one constant in wildfire management. Our greatest chance of success comes from a rapid, well resourced initial attack. Early commitment early containment protects firefighters, saves lives, preserves property and significantly reduces suppression costs. When responses are delayed, risks multiply and losses escalate. To improve outcomes, we must modernize the systems that support wildfire response nationwide.
▶ 1:34:43First, resource ordering must be faster and cleaner. All available resources federal, state, local and contract must be visible in one unified system so they can be deployed without delay. Second, dispatch capacity must match real world risk during periods of high fire danger. Dispatch centers must be fully staffed around the clock fires. Do not wait until the next morning and neither can we.
▶ 1:35:12Third year round readiness must become the standard. Wildfire risk is no longer seasonal, yet many federal staffing and contracting models will reflect outdated assumptions. Federal firefighting resources, including contract crews and aviation assets, must be available based on risk, not calendars. Year round. We must operate at maximum readiness. However, too often national fire management systems rely on limited staffing outside of their maximum availability period or on call resources.
▶ 1:35:42When iraq notifications are missed, the orders are not processed until the next day. We lose irreplaceable time. Wildfire can. Conditions also vary greatly across the country. The east and the west face different challenges, but both depend on strong federal coordination and consistent standards.
▶ 1:36:02That's why I strongly recommend establishing a national wildfire standards to cover framework, one that identifies minimum staffing levels, ground and aerial resource availability, year round, initial attack readiness, and the regional flexibility based on fire probability. This framework would ensure that no single level of government carries the burden alone, and that every community receives constant protection. H.r. 4030 moves us in the right direction.
▶ 1:36:32It strengthens coordination, improves accountability, and helps ensure that when the next fire starts and it will, we are ready together. Thank you for this opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you. Chief russell. We're now going to recognize members for five minutes for their questions. We will start with the gentleman from minnesota, Mr. stauber. >> uh, thank you, chairman tiffany and ranking member for holding this hearing.
▶ 1:36:55And, uh, chief russell, I, I spent, uh, 23 years as a police officer in the great city of duluth, minnesota. And I was always very proud of our firefighters. Um, I, uh, I am deathly afraid of fire. So when there was one, there was nobody driving over those houses. I protected you no matter what hydrant you connected to. I had your backs in. My firefighters knew that. But to the two firefighters behind you, I want to thank you for your service and sacrifice.
▶ 1:37:25Uh, police and fire, public safety. Uh, ems is very, very near and dear to my heart. And we will take care of you, uh, in good times and bad. Uh, and I'm. That's my commitment to you. With that being said, uh, chief russell, thank you for joining us today. And thank you for the incredible work that you and your department do every day to keep us safe. How often does your department respond to wildfires alongside other jurisdictions or partners, including federal land managers?
▶ 1:37:54>> uh, thank you, sir, for the question. Um, in peak fire season, during traditional summer months, we're into the fall where we may be dealing with our our classic santa ana wind conditions. And in california, we can anticipate regularly responses on a daily, uh, or on a weekly basis.
▶ 1:38:09Not all of those fires are large, well developed fires, but sometimes the responses to those, um, we we live in a very challenged or work in a very challenged area where we have cross jurisdictional lands with federal, state, uh, county and my agency. >> and that that that brings me to my next question.
▶ 1:38:32When responding to these, uh, with other partners, how often are the respective partners responsive policies, practices, and standards aligned with one another, and how often do they differ? >> uh, they align quite well. Again, I have to say we're very resource heavy. We have that luxury in southern california, uh, where some not necessarily in other places in the country.
▶ 1:38:58However, some of our policies do come in conflict that we have to, uh, look at and evaluate. >> how does that impact your ability to respond to the wildfire if. >> it doesn't impact our ability to respond? Because we will always send closest units, uh, especially on initial attack. But it does impact on long term ability for resources to come in and replace, say, like my resources to get them back in service in the city of anaheim. >> okay.
▶ 1:39:24Um, in your experience, uh, earlier response often correlates with the more successful response. Would that be correct? >> yes, sir. >> uh, you know, I recognize our wildland firefighting agencies face funding, uh, personnel and equipment constraints, just as any agency, uh, that said, do you think being overly cautious about responding too quickly is negatively impacting our ability to fight fires? >> if I understand your your question, sir correctly, I would say I would say no.
▶ 1:39:54Just because there's an early response doesn't necessarily mean, as it was stated earlier, the the the tactics that are taken may vary. As an example, in northern california or places, if they have a lightning, uh, bus going on, those resources may respond, but they may sit there and monitor and come up with plans, wait till after the lightning goes so they can safely engage.
▶ 1:40:18So, uh, if I understand your question correctly, I don't think a rapid or initial attack response is hindered by by those issues. >> you know, I think the goal is to make from the federal standpoint, uh, reference 4038 is to make sure that the federal government, with the interior and the land managers have that response coordinated with you. Um, so I think it's important and I appreciate that, uh, that when we work together, we can literally save lives.
▶ 1:40:49Right. And that's the first priority. And then of course, structures. Um, and I think that, uh, the goal of the legislation is to get the federal government to take it more seriously and quicker to have those assets deployed, uh, helping out, uh, with the, uh, you know, in the staging area and the command center to make sure that they're doing it right and getting it done. So I just appreciate, uh, again, Mr.
▶ 1:41:13Chair, this hearing and to be able to, uh, you know, talk about the legislation and I will tell you that, uh, ranking member douglas, these are these hearings, uh, we can battle and we do. Right. But this is the these are the bipartisan pieces of legislation that a lot of people don't see, uh, in our nation. And we have experts here testifying. And I just appreciate, uh, you and the chairman bringing us together. And I yield back. >> gentleman yields.
▶ 1:41:42And I recognize the gentleman from colorado for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And, uh, certainly agree with my colleague from minnesota and appreciate his remarks. And I think the more that we can find ways, avenues to try to consider these issues, uh, in good faith on a bipartisan basis, certainly the better it will be for our shared constituents. >> blessed are the peacemakers. >> all right. Appreciate that. Chairman. Um, Mr. mccombs, want to talk to you about, uh, our my bill.
▶ 1:42:10Uh, rather, uh, and grateful again here, uh, here at in washington, dc. And your testimony, you outlined that the most successful forest health projects are the ones that are implemented across entire landscapes and across jurisdictions. And I certainly couldn't agree more. Uh, which is really the impetus for h.r. 3922 and grateful for your support. And I think you articulated well the reasons why this bill makes a whole lot of sense.
▶ 1:42:35Uh, something you and I have talked about fairly recently is the pine beetle outbreak in colorado, which threatens the lives and livelihoods of millions of coloradans up all the way north in larimer county, wyoming, border down south through douglas county and jefferson county and elsewhere.
▶ 1:42:54And I wonder if you might be able to expound a bit on why this type of cross boundary landscape, uh, program and projects would benefit the current circumstances that we're facing in colorado, or rather, help us ameliorate the challenge that we're facing with respect to the pine beetle outbreak, which is a real, um, in some respects, almost existential, uh, challenge for our forests in colorado. >> uh, thank you.
▶ 1:43:23Thank you for that question. You know, the way I describe this is, um, no one sector on its own, all sectors working together. We have a fighting chance. And, you know, acknowledging the fire doesn't know our boundaries. And if every resource across all the different ownerships could, can come together and find ways to ameliorate these challenges, um, we can move forward together in a way that allows this never to happen again. The bill in particular calls out, uh, or puts resources behind how do we identify those barriers that either seen or unseen?
▶ 1:43:51Uh, and hopefully we'll put forward recommendations that we can, uh, working through this committee and elsewhere, bring into law and then translate those into implementation on the ground. Uh, anytime that we bring together all the different actors that have responsibilities for the public safety of our communities as well as the health of our forests, we find opportunities for innovation. We find opportunities for joint investment, and we have opportunities to make durable solutions that will outlast, you know, myself and outlast those that perhaps come behind us. This is a long game.
▶ 1:44:19This is a decadal effort we're involved in and we're engaged in in our responsibilities to work together, to move as efficiently with a sense of urgency and a bias toward, uh, bias towards action. >> yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think you've described it well, and something that I think is often lost, uh, on my colleagues who represent the eastern seaboard, uh, perhaps on both sides of the aisle. I mean, none of the, I guess no one here on the dais but our colleagues from utah, of course.
▶ 1:44:50And we'll include wisconsin, uh, you know, midwest, the greater west. Uh, I think it's lost on them that these landscapes are very, very complex. And there are multiple jurisdictions that ultimately have authority over the landscapes. And, you know, certainly in my district and wide swaths of of land in western colorado, you're talking about areas in which you might drive three miles.
▶ 1:45:13And during that three mile drive, cross across, you know, traverse private land, state land, federal land, blm managed land, forest, uh service managed land. And that creates a number of challenges, right? When you're talking about something as existential as wildfires. So in any event, I think our bill, of course, uh, is a step in the direction of trying to address what you described as a challenge facing our communities in the west.
▶ 1:45:42And hopefully we can use that as a building block for more. So but again, grateful to the state forester and grateful, I should say, to all the witnesses, but in particular, uh, to, uh, chief and to your, uh, personnel fighting fires each and every day. We're certainly grateful for the work that you all do, putting your lives on the line, sacrificing for our communities. And thank you, chairman. I yield. >> back the ranking member yields. And I now recognize miss malloy from utah for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:46:10Uh, representative clancy, thanks for being here. It's good to see you at 2000 miles from home. For both of us, there are probably easier ways for us to get to talk to each other. Um, but I guess, first of all, I just want to say I appreciate my colleague, doctor kennedy, testifying that it's hard for even a very fit person to hike to the top of that peak because I have hiked it and it was very difficult. And and there's not a lot of oxygen up there. I can't imagine doing it with a 20 foot flagpole.
▶ 1:46:37Um, but, tyler, you know, as a state rep that it's it's never just about the flag or the flagpole. Um, in states like utah, where we have so much federal land, everything local governments are trying to do runs into federal barriers. I've got a story from just up I-15 in my district, where there was a youth group trying to clean up trash on forest service land, and they couldn't get a permit to go pick up trash.
▶ 1:47:04And it sounds really reasonable to say we have processes. You have to follow these processes, but sometimes the results are absurd. Would you just speak a little bit to that local perspective? Uh, you're in law enforcement and in local government of the the trust that gets eroded sometimes and what it's like. >> absolutely. Thank you, representative, for the question. And you're right. There's a thousand stories just like the one that you mentioned.
▶ 1:47:30Uh, representative jack, the chair of utah's environmental stewardship caucus, shared a it would be funny if it wasn't critical infrastructure, but there was a critical infrastructure project that the state was working on building. But the permit was being held up because one area of land that they were trying to build through was actually the habitat for a cuckoo bird. The challenge is the cuckoo bird is not native to utah, and there was no cuckoo birds in the state of utah.
▶ 1:47:57And those are the kinds of things where I think many times we have a reaction where if it's a federal, if it's federal land, it's protected and it's done effectively. But actually there's ways that we can protect, uh, land. We can protect environmental stewardship, particularly with that local knowledge, as you mentioned before. And so whether it's, uh, law enforcement, but particularly in the environment, I think that local expertise is so important. >> thank you.
▶ 1:48:21Um, I agree, and it sometimes the things we talk about here sound like we're really caught up in the thick of thin things, but there's always a lot of other things piled up where we have to be able to live with these federal lands in states like utah, and there just has to be a more efficient way to make decisions, a better way to work together. So thank you for flying all the way out here to testify about that. Um, I'm going to give you a break for a minute, Mr. checketts, uh, I really appreciated your testimony.
▶ 1:48:50Um, and you, you talked about how the the age of ranchers is getting higher and higher. Every time I start talking about harriet hageman bill, she walks in. It makes me a little nervous. I don't I don't know what spy software she has. Um, but but can you talk about how that permitting uncertainty and the extra hoops you have to jump through on grasslands make it harder for the younger generation to want to take over and live the kind of lifestyle that you eloquently spoke about. How much you love. >> yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:49:19Thank you for the question. Three quick things one, as a rancher, we have debts most ranchers do. And so it's a concern if we don't have a permit, that is solid. Secondly, for our children to come, they want to come and build a home, be there forever. It's a concern for them to know that they have stability, that they want to invest their lives, invest their education, blood, sweat and tears like we have to be there.
▶ 1:49:48Thirdly, there's different grazing associations that have lost aum because this bill hasn't been passed yet. And that scares a lot of people. >> yeah, I'm one of them. Um, you know, sitting here listening to all the testimonies today, it sounds like we're talking about fixing a lot of technicalities. And they are technicalities in the law. But for people who are out on the ground trying to do things, these technicalities really matter.
▶ 1:50:15Whether you can put a flag up on a peak or renew your permit on a grassland or respond quickly to a fire, all of those are real world problems that we have a responsibility to solve. And I just appreciate you all being here to talk about what it means to you so that we can get it right. And with that, Mr. chairman, I will yield back. >> the gentlelady yields. I now recognize Mr. kennedy for five minutes. >> thank you again, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:50:41And representative clancy, thanks for coming all the way out to to witness for us as to the star spangled summit act. I've heard from local media, as well as a variety of constituents about the impact of this flag. What sort of impact have you heard from constituents in your area, the area that you represent as a state legislator, as to the fact that between june and october, this flag flies above one of our university football stadiums, and people can have an opportunity to see it for
▶ 1:51:12Several months each year until it was forbidden by the united states forest service just several years ago. What constituent feedback have you heard about the impact of this flag? >> well, one that comes to mind is the sandstrom family. Jesse and abby sandstrom, who I know you know well, congressman, um, they are avid hikers and being on the the utah climbing alliance as well. They're they're out in the outdoors all the time. It's been five years since they saw the american flag up on kyiv peak.
▶ 1:51:38This is an opportunity now where they have three young small children and they're constantly going on these hikes. This is an opportunity to to look up at the flag and talk about these, these moments. More than anything, what I hear is about these symbols that unite us in such a divided time. The american flag really centers us on who we are as a country, and inspires us to be a little better. >> what does it mean? Thank you.
▶ 1:52:00Along those lines, on a corollary basis, when we forbid such activities from happening, what is the what is the impact that that might have not only on those that can't participate, but also those in the future, the young ones that might look at that opportunity, the scouts and the scout troop that say, well, we've been doing this, why can't we do it? And the scoutmasters response has to be, the federal government has forbidden us from putting up a united states flag in a place that can be seen at.
▶ 1:52:24Tell me what kind of impact you would estimate from the forest service interpretation of what is obviously a very temporary structure. It was put up in june, it was taken down in october. It was a crack between two rocks. He put up a 20 foot flagpole with a little bit of concrete. He would come in and responsibly take it down in october.
▶ 1:52:48What is the impact if we're not allowed to be able to put up the stars and stripes in a in a visible location on our mountains? >> well, certainly. And the star spangled summit act, I think, is speaks to the broader concern. What happens when when folks across the country, and particularly in utah, see incidents like this, they begin to lose trust in government. And that's our social fabric starts to fade away.
▶ 1:53:09And so when they see something on the news or their scoutmaster says, you can't fly the flag on one of the most important hikes in our in our valley, um, people just start to check out and they say, yeah, government doesn't care about me. And that's really where I think that while this bill is targeted, it's small. It sends a really important message that people can have faith that we're out here solving problems, whether it's, you know, 2000 miles away. But that's the importance I think it has.
▶ 1:53:36>> I talked earlier in my introduction of you, of you're one of the youngest legislators in the united states of america. Yeah. If you don't mind revealing that. How old are you? >> I'm 28 years old. >> 28 years old? You've been in the state legislature for how long? Uh, congresswoman hageman is also 28. 28. She was just telling me. Telling me that. Um. And how long have you been in our state legislature now? >> I'll be entering my fourth session next week. >> excellent.
▶ 1:53:59And during that period of time, tell me what the youth, the young people your generation thinks about our federal government, our government in general. >> right. Well, I think it goes back to to what I mentioned previously that I think when you see extremism and the divisiveness start to arise, it's because people feel checked out. They feel that washington, D.C. is a place 2000 miles away where people don't care about folks like you and I and me having the opportunity to work with so many great people.
▶ 1:54:27I know that's not true, but when things like a permitting delay or a permitting prohibition, um, simple things that matter to people, that's these are I see them as opportunities to continually, you know, put, put coins in the proverbial piggy bank of trust. And I think that's something that we can all focus on.
▶ 1:54:46>> when your optimism to run for office, to serve in office with your wife, leah, supporting you along the way, the fact that you are actively involved in your community as a law enforcement officer in the community, the fact that you come here to talk about a common sense but frankly nonsensical fact, Mr. chair, that we have to run legislation to put a united states united states flag on a mountain peak.
▶ 1:55:12Is is a reflection of why a lot of people do feel like government just doesn't work for them. And I'm grateful for your optimism, I share it. We need to make sure that those young men, young women, that the people in the community can look at the government as something that actually works. And it's sad that we have to take an act of congress to do something that's patriotic, like put up a flag, but god bless america because we'll do it if we need to, to reflect the fact that there is hope for this great country, 250 years old, and we hope for another 250 years in the future.
▶ 1:55:41So, representative clancy, thanks for being here to bring out those important symbolic aspects of what is a relatively simple bill. But, Mr. chair, I'll just say we will not stand down in whatever way we need to. We'll make sure that the united states of america and its flag can fly everywhere in this country in an unfettered fashion. Thank you, representative clancy. Thank you, Mr. chair. I yield back. >> gentleman's time has expired, and I recognize the gentlelady from wyoming. >> thank you.
▶ 1:56:07And again, thank you for allowing me to wave on to your very important committee. Uh, first of all, I want to commend the forest service for the work that you do. If you have watched over the last couple of years with the biden administration, when forest service employees came before our committee, I was pretty hard on them for good reason. Um, we need to better manage our national forest system lands. And I know that that is the what you want to do. Uh, it is, it is. It's a goal of yours.
▶ 1:56:34So many people don't realize that under the 1897 organic act, the forest service was created within the department of agriculture, not within the department of interior, specifically for the purpose, so that we could use these lands for commodity production, whether that is timber production, production of water grazing, those are all things that are incredibly important. And it was the very purpose of why these 192 million acres were eventually set aside, including our national grasslands.
▶ 1:57:00I want to make sure that our national grasslands are properly managed, and that they are used by the people who can benefit not only in our communities, but ultimately, it benefits all of us. By clarifying that grazing provisions are to apply to the entire national forest system, we will be putting national grasslands on parity in terms of certainty provided to permits in the flpma statute. And Mr.
▶ 1:57:24Checketts, why is it why is certainty so important for current operations and future generations who want to engage in this agricultural way of life? >> thank you, congresswoman hagerman, and thank you again for sponsoring this bill. The reason that certainty is so important, as I noted earlier, we've lost 150 000 ranches. It's so important that we have surety to know that our kids can come, that we can pay our bills, and that we can protect and preserve the grasslands for future generations.
▶ 1:57:52The ranchers are the original conservationists. We want to take care of the ranch, the land more than anyone else. With that surety, we can develop, improve and make the grasslands better than they've ever been. >> you can invest in the resource, whether it is deeded land or it is the land that you are managing as part of a permit with the national forest service. Is that a good way of putting it? >> yes, ma'am. >> all right.
▶ 1:58:16There are 20 publicly owned national grasslands, ranging from the rocky mountains to the badlands to north central texas and into the great plains. You have described many of the challenges that folks on those national grasslands have faced. As the president of the association of national grasslands, are you able to speak as to whether these challenges are shared by ranchers operating on grasslands across these several states? >> yes, ma'am. They are okay. >> what are some of those challenges? >> some of the challenges is the loss of arms.
▶ 1:58:45There's been some aum loss, um, two different grazing associations, the grand river and the fort pierre in south dakota, have both lost arms. We're currently working to get them back and making good progress with the forest service. But it's a it's a continual thing that is a scare tactic used by forest service. And I too am very grateful for the forest service, many friends of the forest service, and I always publicly thank them for their grass.
▶ 1:59:13Uh, there's been a a good positive movement with the forest service, and I really appreciate the forest service supporting this bill. >> well, and one of the the challenges that we have in the west are the catastrophic forest fires that we have experienced over the years, both within our national forests, such as in the big. Yeah, the, uh, the bighorn national forest or within on the grasslands. And grazing is a very important part of mitigating the risk of wildfire, isn't it, Mr. checketts? >> yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:59:4245 to 50% reduction in wildfires with grazing and up to 80% with targeted grazing in areas of concern. >> so it is a very important part of the way that we manage this resource. And I think that it is absolutely critical that we make whatever adjustments are necessary working with the forest service and practitioners and our state legislators as to what kinds of changes and tweaks do we need to make or or fundamental changes?
▶ 2:00:10Do we need to make to the statutory framework to make sure that these gentlemen sitting at the table with you, are better able to do their job? Can you briefly describe what is the value to our nation's food supply and overall economic health, from grazing on national grasslands and other public lands? >> food security? Is national security. Having that healthy food to raise our children, feed our families, there's nothing more important. There's nothing more organic than being able to graze on federal lands.
▶ 2:00:38It's the greatest thing that's ever happened to ranchers, and it's the greatest thing to feed our country. And our country is an example of taking care of all the citizens by that. >> and we often talk about the movement to make america healthy again. We just saw the complete inversion of the food pyramid my father has been talking about was talked about that for 60 or 70 years, about how the the food pyramid is, is issued by the federal government or put forth by the federal government was always backwards. It was always wrong.
▶ 2:01:06And now what we're seeing is we're focusing on the healthy meat and dairy and and fruit and vegetable products that we produce in this country. Again, very briefly, how would the grasslands grazing act help maximize the positive contribution of national grasslands to our nation? >> it would help by the movement. It would help by taking care of the local communities so that the the dollar turns around and that the ranchers can stay on the ranch and raise their families and keep the rural america, rural america like it's been for generations.
▶ 2:01:36>> wonderful. I appreciate your testimony. Thank you both for traveling here. Again. I want to commend the folks in the national forest service for your work to actually implement what the original organic act intended, and to make sure that we can manage, protect and into the long term, use these incredible national resources. So thank you very much. With that, I yield back. >> uh, the gentlelady yields and as usual, she hits a tripwire. I was not going to say anything, but. Yes. Um, it's time for the food pyramid standards to be changed. It is about time that it happened.
▶ 2:02:08And we are celebrating today because the whole milk for kids act is being signed in the white house as we speak. >> it's my first day. >> there we go. Um, we should be celebrating.
▶ 2:02:20And, um, I was one of them that did not adhere to those standards over the course of the past number of decades, bacon, beef and butter have been an integral part of my family's diet for a long, long time, and we are not going to stop. Keep raising that beef out there on the plains, if you would. So anyhow, um, I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for your questions.
▶ 2:02:50Members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for our witnesses today, and we will ask that they respond to those in writing. Under committee rule three, members of the subcommittee must submit questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m. On tuesday, january 20th, 2026. The hearing record will be held open for ten business days for these responses. If there's no further business without objection. Subcommittee on federal lands stands adjourned. Thank you.