▶ 0:17:21Committee on oversight and government reform will come to order. I want to welcome everyone here today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Good morning. Today, the house oversight committee is holding its first hearing on the massive fraud in minnesota's social services program. Minnesota social services, which are funded by you, the american taxpayer, are being ripped off.
▶ 0:17:49The most vulnerable are suffering as a result. Federal prosecutors estimate that these criminals have stolen at least $9 billion. The fraudsters, many of whom are from minnesota's somali community, have stolen from programs meant to feed needy kids, provide services to autistic children, housed low income and disabled americans, and provide health care to vulnerable medicaid recipients.
▶ 0:18:16Fraudsters like these take millions to enrich themselves while providing nothing overstating or outright faking the services. How many children have gone hungry because fraudsters stole money that was intended to provide them with food? How many autistic children were denied services because fraudsters instead sent this money overseas?
▶ 0:18:36How many low income seniors, people with disabilities or those with mental illnesses were denied access to housing because fraudsters drained resources and pocketed the money for themselves? The breadth and depth of this fraud is breathtaking, and I fear that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
▶ 0:18:59The us department of justice is already investigating another minnesota service program after a disabled man battling drug addiction under the care of a fraudulent full time provider died because of neglect. Governor tim walz, attorney general keith ellison and minnesota's democrat leadership have either been asleep at the wheel or complicit in these crimes. How could they allow this massive fraud to go on for years?
▶ 0:19:27This is why we're here today. We must expose this theft of taxpayer dollars and hold everybody accountable who let it happen. Today, we're joined by witnesses from minnesota state house of representatives who have been fighting this fight for years. These legislators are on the front lines uncovering fraud in minnesota social services programs day in and day out, and trying to get their state agencies to fix it. Thank you all for what you're doing to uncover the truth.
▶ 0:19:56This isn't just a minnesota problem. It's a problem for taxpayers across the united states. About 35% of minnesota's budget comes from federal grants. 35% of minnesota's budget comes from federal grants. Hard working americans pay those taxes, and that money is being funneled to fraudsters. Funding luxury homes, fancy cars and vacations abroad.
▶ 0:20:22Some of it is even allegedly going overseas to support terrorists. And yet, governor walz, attorney general ellison and minnesota democrats failed to act despite countless warnings they failed minnesotans and all americans. Handing millions of taxpayer dollars to fraudsters, they failed children and other minnesota. They failed their own state employees, some of whom have come forward as whistleblowers.
▶ 0:20:51These whistleblowers have told us that the waltz administration retaliated against employees who warned and alerted the administration to the fraud occurring within these social services programs. Again, governor waltz accused employees who were simply doing their jobs of racism, islamophobia and threatened surveillance to silence them. President trump and his administration are taking a whole of government approach and prosecuting these fraudsters.
▶ 0:21:20To date, the us department of justice has charged 98 defendants in minnesota fraud related cases, 85 of whom are of somali descent. 64 have already been convicted. The us department of homeland security is on the ground conducting investigations of suspected fraud sites in minnesota. The us department of health and human services has frozen child care payments and started requiring documentation to prove entities are indeed providing child care.
▶ 0:21:49Other federal agencies are halting grant programs investigating public housing fraud and strengthening program eligibility requirements. The american people demand jail time for those who stole their hard earned money and accountability for officials who sat by as resources were drained. Congress must ensure there is change and accountability, so this does not happen again. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today.
▶ 0:22:15Americans, thank you all for exposing this critical issue. And with that, I yield to ranking member garcia for his opening statement. >> thank you, chairman comer. I just want to start by thanking, of course, our witnesses for being here today and for all the members being back. Uh, we all agree.
▶ 0:22:37I think everyone on both sides of the aisle can agree that fraud is a threat at every level of government, in every private sector business, and to every single american. Fraud exists everywhere. When I was mayor of my hometown in long beach, we worked for better and more efficient government and took on fraud whenever it existed and wherever it appeared to protect taxpayers. It's something that all of us take seriously every single day.
▶ 0:23:04When we find fraud, we should punish people and those that are committing it against the american public, especially when it damages services that people rely on. Now, what we should not do is use fraud as an excuse to rip away aid from innocent people who follow the rules and need help in our society. We should fight fraud when people rip off programs designed to help working families.
▶ 0:23:30And also we should fight fraud when large corporations and wealthy individuals dodge their own taxes and rig the system for their own benefit. And especially we should fight fraud when figures in our government, particularly those in power within the white house or agencies, get rich and profit from their offices, fraud is never acceptable and it undermines public trust. Whoever commits it.
▶ 0:23:56But let's remember that some of the worst fraud and corruption is actually found at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. Republicans like to talk about fraud in states with democratic governors, oftentimes exclusively. But republicans also have a president who has pardoned or reduced jail time for 25 criminals convicted of fraud in this year alone. Now, some of these fraudsters have made also huge campaign contributions to donald trump.
▶ 0:24:24And worst of all, trump's pardons mean that these criminals can avoid paying back more than $1 billion, which they owe their victims, and dwarfs much of the fraud that the house majority wants to talk about today. This is actually the opposite of accountability. Instead, the house majority wants to excuse and cut programs, which they have done from the start. Now, donald trump's signature law cut money for health care and food programs.
▶ 0:24:49Medicaid and chip help almost half the kids in the united states see a doctor. And that we lost, of course, $1 trillion in those programs. Over 10 million people could lose health care. Trump's law also cut 40 million people who use snap. And this includes, by the way, one out of every five kids. And this is happening not just in minnesota.
▶ 0:25:12The president plans to freeze more than 10 billion for child care subsidies, social services and cash support for low income families in minnesota, new york, colorado, illinois and my home state of california. Of course, we know these states have democratic governors that donald trump wants to punish. And we should look at those consequences if we want to talk about fraud in minnesota, which we're talking about today. Donald trump is removing child care funding for the entire state.
▶ 0:25:38That frozen funding provides child care for over 18,000 kids. These kids didn't commit fraud. So I want to know why they should be punished. Last night, he said he's withholding all possibly medicaid funds from minnesota, which could harm 1 in 5 residents. Now, in new york, another state he's threatening, that's over 66,000 innocent kids.
▶ 0:26:03Well, pardoning, of course, 25 fraudsters and robbing victims of over $1 billion. Donald trump should have to face the kids and parents who will be hurt, even though they've done nothing wrong. I want to know what the president and the house majority expect the parents of these kids to do. Many don't seem to care. He wants to pardon and protect more rich crooks and fraudsters who have robbed over $1 billion from innocent people.
▶ 0:26:29Now in california, in my home state, this threatens over 176,000 kids, 176,000 kids. Well, he continues, of course, to pardon fraudsters and connected folks that have donated immense amounts of money to his campaign. Now, this hurts not just democratic families, but republican families. It's innocent kids, regardless of political party, who need child care.
▶ 0:26:56We are in an affordability crisis and the majority is not going after the real fraud that's being committed to the american public. Now in illinois, he has threatened funding for more than 62,000 kids. 62,000 kids. And finally, in colorado, the other state that he's going after, more than 16,000 kids will lose funding. But we know, of course, that the president will let his friends get away with crime.
▶ 0:27:23And I want to point out one last thing, which is so important. While donald trump attacks these states, the wall street journal on monday reported a massive mississippi scandal. Mississippi, of course, isn't on trump's list. We don't have witnesses for mississippi here today. Oversight. Republicans aren't calling in governor tate. And I think the question is why? We have real fraud happening.
▶ 0:27:50Yet there's zero interest, apparently, in what's happening here in mississippi and other places. Republicans want to cut benefits and attack states with democratic governors. And what it's done, particularly in places like minnesota, it is unleashed bigotry and hate. Minnesota child care centers have become the target of harassment and even vandalism and theft. Parents are afraid to drop their kids off in the morning and go to work.
▶ 0:28:15This is an opportunity again to attack for the house majority and smear innocent people without evidence. If we cared about fraud, we'd be starting at the very top. This is critical for the country and to actually take on fraud and abuse and the and the fraudsters that are being pardoned across the united states. Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. I would like to now welcome our witnesses here today.
▶ 0:28:42First we have kristen robbins, chairwoman of the fraud prevention and state agency oversight policy committee and representative for district 37 a in the minnesota house of representatives. Welcome. Next we have walter hudson, a member of the fraud prevention and state agency oversight policy committee and representative from minnesota's district 30 a.
▶ 0:29:03Next, we have marianne rarick, a member of fraud prevention and state agency oversight policy committee and representative for district 29 b in minnesota. Lastly, we have brendan ballou, a former special counsel at the department of justice. I thank you all for joining us, and we look very forward to your testimony today. This is an issue the american people are very interested in. Pursuant to committee rule 90, the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand.
▶ 0:29:30Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you all, and you may take a seat. We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statements to five minutes.
▶ 0:29:59As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you when you begin to speak. The light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes. The light will turn yellow when the red light comes on. Your five minutes have expired and we would ask that you please wrap up. I now recognize representative robbins for her opening statement. >> good morning, Mr. chairman and members. Thank you for inviting us to testify.
▶ 0:30:22As chair of the prevention fraud prevention committee in minnesota, I've been working to uncover the massive fraud under tim walz proposed solutions and hold state agencies accountable. Today, I will highlight the scale of the problem, outline the work our committee is doing to fight fraud, and provide a roadmap for other states on how to detect and stop fraud. Minnesota is one of the highest tax states in the nation, and hardworking minnesotans have been told that they don't pay their fair share for years.
▶ 0:30:50In truth, minnesotans pay much more in taxes than in other states, and when they pay their taxes, they expect that their money is going to things that help our communities roads, schools, health care, and law enforcement. They do not want their tax dollars absconded by criminals to buy resorts and apartment buildings in kenya, property in turkey and luxury homes and cars in the us.
▶ 0:31:11Tim walz and his administration have willfully turned a blind eye to crime in the face of countless whistleblower and auditor reports, as well as stories by local investigative journalists and the center of the american experiment. These are actual crimes that must be punished. They are crimes against our moral values and erode trust in government. The time for accountability and justice is here. First, we are unearthing staggering amounts of fraud in minnesota.
▶ 0:31:38As far back as 2014, there were credible whistleblower allegations of millions in daycare fraud. Instead of shutting it down, the state minimized whistleblower reports and allowed fraud to grow. Unfortunately, child care fraud was just the tip of the iceberg in 20. Since 2019, tim walz and minnesota democrats have allowed fraud to absolutely explode in minnesota.
▶ 0:32:01There's been more than $300 million in the feeding our future child nutrition program scandal, and the feeding our future prosecutions revealed that as many as half of those indicted also ran other medicaid funded programs. Yet despite this being known back in 2023, tim walz and his agencies have done nothing to stop those defendants from getting additional state money.
▶ 0:32:25We have now found fraud in multiple medicaid programs, including autism centers, sober homes, non-emergency medical transportation, integrated community supports, and housing stabilization. Just last month, our committee held a hearing on credible allegations of fraud in two new areas adult day services and assisted living. First, U.S. attorney joe thompson, the leading prosecutor in these cases from the biden administration and the trump administration, says the fraud could be an astronomical $9 billion.
▶ 0:32:55In the face of mounting reports and literal criminal indictments and convictions, the walz administration has repeatedly and publicly denied or downplayed the fraud. Just last january, the commissioner of dhs, jodi harpstead, who'd been on the job for five and a half years, said there's a lot more rumors of fraud than there is actual fraud. You cannot make this up. The walls administration has been gaslighting minnesotans on the scale of the fraud problem for years.
▶ 0:33:23In response, when republicans took control or ended democrat control of the minnesota house last year, we created the fraud prevention and state agency oversight committee. Since last february, we have held 15 hearings where we have grilled officials, exposed new areas of fraud and repeatedly flagged failures in internal controls.
▶ 0:33:42I authored a new law to expand whistleblower protection, and we created a portal, minfraud, resulting in a surge of new whistleblower reports that are amazing staff is still working through. Under the leadership of our vice chair, patty anderson, we passed a bipartisan bill in the senate to create an independent office of inspector general. When it got to the house, democrats killed it because the dhs commissioner testified against it.
▶ 0:34:10The tim walz administration has utterly failed to protect minnesota taxpayers and vulnerable citizens, ignoring years of credible reports and retaliating against those who spoke up, often by claiming they were racist or islamophobic. Tim walz and the democrats have repeatedly protected their political base at the expense of all minnesotans. Other states should learn from the failures of the walz administration. So I'll give you a quick roadmap on how to find and stop fraud. First, culture matters.
▶ 0:34:37Fraud flourishes when leaders ignore it and criminals see they can get away with it. Second, fraud flourishes when basic internal controls are not followed. This is not complicated. Third, you have to look at the interconnections of relationships in businesses, in multiple program areas and medicaid. It's a huge red flag that has been ignored in our state. Finally, it is important to say what is true and to stand up against fake allegations of racism or islamophobia.
▶ 0:35:06Crime is crime, no matter who is committing it. It is true that the majority of the fraud in minnesota has taken place in the somali community. And it is also true that some of our best whistleblowers are from the somali community. Democrats refuse to acknowledge this truth, and that has enabled criminals to steal billions and hurt our vulnerable citizens. Mr. chairman, thank you for the opportunity to share the lessons from minnesota and for your help in investigating these crimes.
▶ 0:35:33The time for justice and accountability is now. >> I now recognize representative hudson for his opening statement. >> chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. For the record, I am minnesota state representative walter hudson, a second term member who sits on our house fraud prevention and state agency oversight committee.
▶ 0:35:57The recent national conversation about fraud in minnesota has been fraught with distractions, diverting from critical concerns regarding process, policy and oversight to sideshow concerns about personalities and partizan politics.
▶ 0:36:15My role here today is to cut through all of that and provide you with a clear picture of a culture which has developed over many years around the several generous benefit programs which minnesota provides to our residents. Well documented oversight failures have led to a lack of program integrity, creating incentives for people to monetize programs beyond their legislative intent to turn benefits into business.
▶ 0:36:45Contrary to the claim just made by the ranking member that there is no evidence of this fraud attached to my written testimony, you will find a document which collates several reports made over the past 15 years by minnesota's nonpartisan office of legislative auditor, along with transcripts of each of our hearings from the fraud committee, where we heard directly from staff and leaders within the state agencies which administer these programs. Here's what that record indicates.
▶ 0:37:14Within the state of minnesota, government oversight has been unable to keep up with program expansion due to a combination of factors. One rapid expansion of funding and provider participation. Two payment systems that prioritize access and speed.
▶ 0:37:31Three verification mechanisms that occur after funds are distributed four oversight capacity that does not scale with spending, and five diffuse accountability across agencies and contractors.
▶ 0:37:48This combination of factors has fostered a booming new sector of the economy that relies upon the continuation of an expansion of government programs to fuel private sector profits. I want to be clear, even when the law is being followed precisely by every jot and tittle.
▶ 0:38:10Incentives still exist to abuse these programs and waste taxpayer dollars by diverting funding to profit centers, rather than providing a safety net for those in temporary need. Now, criminal fraud is rampant. Deputy us attorney joe thompson, serving the district of minnesota, has said that he could keep a thousand prosecutors busy, but he's limited to a mere 25.
▶ 0:38:36Only five of which are tasked with building fraud cases. He estimates that the total amount of criminal fraud over five years may reach $9 billion, which is fully one half of the money that has been directed to these programs by the state. While governor tim walz and other stakeholders dispute that assessment.
▶ 0:38:57The point I wish to emphasize is this whatever the actual number is, the full scope of the problem is not just criminal fraud, but a culture of profiting from government programs in perpetuity, not as a safety net, but as an industry. I have personally met and had discussions with folks who identified themselves as consultants for multiple entities accepting government benefits.
▶ 0:39:25They have made a career out of showing people how to leverage the gaps in government oversight to maximize benefit payments. Now, such conduct may not actually break the law, and that's the point.
▶ 0:39:40We have a system whereby an entire industry can operate under the color of law, making raking in tremendous profits for individuals, all while having no incentive to save the taxpayer money or lift legitimate beneficiaries out of need. Instead, as the market for funneling benefits into businesses increases, so too does the perceived need for benevolent services.
▶ 0:40:06If nothing changes, if oversight is not tightened, if incentives are not changed, spending on these programs will only continue to increase, with no commensurate increase in either public good or public confidence in our governing institutions. Thank you for the opportunity to submit this testimony for the record. I look forward to answering what questions I can. >> thank you. I now recognize representative rarick for her opening statement.
▶ 0:40:38>> good morning, Mr. chairman and members. For the record, my name is marian rarick and I am currently serving in the minnesota house of representatives and house district 20 9bi am a member of the minnesota house fraud prevention and state agency oversight committee, which was recently formed in january of 25. I was first asked to serve on the committee in january. On january 4th and soon after, the five republican members began to meet.
▶ 0:41:03During one of those discussions, I was asked to reach out to the department of human services whistleblowers on x, now called minnesota staff fraud reporting commentary. I had been following them in the previous year.
▶ 0:41:18I reached out through a direct tweet on x on january 16th, and the very same day I got a response back that yes, they would be willing to speak to the fraud prevention committee since that first contact, chair robbins and I and representative hudson have had multiple conference calls with them, and we have had one in-person meeting. At that meeting, there were both former and current employees.
▶ 0:41:44I've continued to message with them very often, sometimes daily, and their collective message has been completely consistent. Instead of focusing on fraudsters, dhs leadership instead focused its surveillance on employees.
▶ 0:42:03Since then, there are expressed fear of retaliation has intensified under an avalanche of fraud in minnesota, their numbers have grown from 480 dhs employees, both current and former, to over 1000 across multiple state agencies.
▶ 0:42:19They have told me repeatedly how grateful they are to the house fraud prevention committee for focusing our attention on fraud in the state programs, using their inside information while keeping them completely protected. They have explained that they live in a constant state of fear of retaliation. One only has to look at what happened to faye bernstein to understand why.
▶ 0:42:44And a very recent newsweek article dated december 13th of 25. Miss bernstein, a former compliance specialist, stated, minnesota dhs functions in the opposite manner. As you would think employees who suggest improvements or, heaven forbid, report fraud then face significant retaliation.
▶ 0:43:06The messenger is shot in 2019, bernstein said she alerted minnesota dhs officials to sloppy contracting practices that were not legally compliant. But it's not what most people would even consider fraud, she says.
▶ 0:43:24She was later escorted out of the building, faced lengthy investigation, got trespassed from all dhs owned and leased properties, and received involuntary transfer to another state agency. So she says. So today, if someone asked me, should I report fraud within dhs, I say, no, no, no, it is career suicide, plus a whole lot more.
▶ 0:43:49So let's talk about that, plus a whole lot more in our face to face meetings with a group of whistleblowers, they revealed that retaliation now includes threats of being fired with cause, which means you do not get unemployment insurance in the state of minnesota. Being blacklisted from all state agencies. And I would note, most likely our largest counties as well, which are democrat run.
▶ 0:44:16And then there was a veiled threat of the use of military intelligence against them. They later informed me that it was discovered that in some targeted employees or suspected whistleblowers, blowers personnel files were pictures of their homes and their cars. They also described that supervisors asked them questions about their families that to them felt like a threat.
▶ 0:44:48One example was we need to know where kids go to school and where their bus stops are. I will also note that whistleblowers we spoke to described many times that dhs used surveillance programs to surveil employees, emails and chats and other communications looking for key words like fraud, double billing, underspending and overpayments. One example that the whistleblowers let me know about.
▶ 0:45:17Lieutenant governor flanagan april 12th, 2024. Flanagan comes to a dhs health and human services equity conference at the heritage center in brooklyn center. On stage, flanagan acknowledges the x account and the fraud concerns it raised and publicly denounced the x users and called them weirdos and losers sitting in their mothers basement. This was in a public setting with hundreds of participants, and elicited gasps among the crowd.
▶ 0:45:47Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you. I now recognize Mr. ballou for his opening statement. >> thank you. My name is brennan ballou. I'm a former federal prosecutor and a native minnesotan. Like all minnesotans, like all americans who have heard this story, I am deeply distressed by the fraud on the state's social service programs.
▶ 0:46:09Most notably, in 2022, the department of justice indicted 47 people for stealing an estimated $246 million in funds meant to feed children during the covid 19 pandemic. As late as 2025, 78 people have been indicted as part of this scheme and 56 have pleaded guilty.
▶ 0:46:26More recently, the department has charged over a dozen people for stealing $14 million from a program meant for children with autism and millions more from a program meant to help disabled minnesotans maintain stable housing. This is heartbreaking for several reasons. At the most basic level, money meant for the neediest among us the hungry, the disabled, the destitute was stolen. I fear that skepticism of minnesota's social safety net.
▶ 0:46:53One of the things that makes the state great will grow, and it will be harder to fund these programs in the future, and I fear that the actions of a few people will be used to demonize an entire population of somali and east african minnesotans, who overwhelmingly have made the state more vibrant, more diverse, and more prosperous.
▶ 0:47:10I also fear the selective interest in fraud in america, because at the time, at the same time that these crimes are rightly being investigated by state and federal authorities, the larger infrastructure for prosecuting fraud and white collar crime is being dismantled. Let me give you a few examples.
▶ 0:47:29In february 2025, the department of justice paused enforcement of the foreign corrupt practices act, which prohibits foreign bribery and criminal violations of the foreign agents registration act, which, as the name suggests, prohibits acting as a secret agent of a foreign power.
▶ 0:47:47Between february and april of last year, the department disbanded its klepto capture task force, which enforced sanctions against russian oligarchs and the national cryptocurrency enforcement team, and last year, the department forced out most of the lawyers of the public integrity section, which prosecutes crimes by government officials, announced plans to dismantle the tax division, which prosecutes tax evasion and shuttered the fbi task force that investigated congressional misconduct.
▶ 0:48:13More than just dismantling infrastructure for pursuing violations of the law, the government is for favored defendants appearing to enable it. In 2024, the justice department indicted andrew wiederhorn, the ceo of a casual fast food chain, for allegedly stealing $47 million from his own company after his business donated $100 $100,000 to the trump's trump inaugural committee. His case was dropped and the line level prosecutor on his case was fired.
▶ 0:48:42In 2021, the department sued boeing for deceiving the government about the software that caused two plane crashes, killing 346 people. After donating $1 million to the inaugural committee, boeing negotiated a favorable deferred prosecution agreement that the judge overseeing the case said, quote, fails to secure the necessary accountability to ensure the safety of the flying public, but he felt compelled by precedent to accept it. Nevertheless, the examples continue.
▶ 0:49:12Banks that contributed to the inaugural committee had litigations against them for violating consumer financial protection laws dropped, and so too did cryptocurrency companies that were investigated and sued by the securities and exchange commission and who contributed to the inaugural committee. Crucially, those crypto companies that did not donate to the committee or other affiliated entities remain defendants of the government.
▶ 0:49:37The scale of these frauds involve millions stolen and hundreds killed, and yet they have received a fraction of the attention of the fraud that happened in minnesota. This concerns me because we are both dismantling our infrastructure for fighting fraud and providing a roadmap for how those fraudsters who are who are prosecuted can buy their way out of justice. Well, we need to pursue the fraud we're seeing in minnesota's social safety programs for all the reasons I said, because it is the weakest among us who are being harmed.
▶ 0:50:05We cannot selectively show an interest in fraud. If we do, we put some people the very powerful and the very rich beyond the reach of the law. Thank you. >> thank you all for your opening statements. We'll now begin the questioning portion of the hearing. And I chair recognizes Mr. gill from texas for the first question. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing so expeditiously.
▶ 0:50:33Um, we all know this is an important issue, not just in terms of, uh, welfare fraud, but also immigration more broadly. So we appreciate it. And thank you for the witnesses for taking the time to come here. I want to start with you, Mr. val hoyle. Um, again, thank you for being here. Let me ask you, does large scale somali immigration make minnesota stronger or weaker? >> certainly stronger. Do you know what percentage of somali headed households in minnesota are on food stamps?
▶ 0:51:04>> no, 54%. >> do you know what that number is for native minnesota headed households? >> well, to be clear, a majority of the. >> seven, it's 7%. There's a big difference between 54% and 7%, is there not? >> excuse me, sir, could I could I answer the question? >> let me let me move on. We've got a lot of questions here. What what percentage of somali headed households in minnesota are on medicaid? >> I don't know. >> it's 73%. Do you know what that number is for? Minnesota native households? >> again, you're using the phrase minnesota native households. But the majority number.
▶ 0:51:34>> if the number is 18%, that's a quite an astounding difference. I think we would. >> can I answer the question, please? >> let me ask you one more and then we can go on to that. What percentage of somali headed households are on welfare in general? >> I don't know. >> it's 81%. What about, uh, let me just ask you, after ten years of being in the united states, what percentage of somali immigrant households are on continue to be on welfare? >> I don't know. >> the number is 78%.
▶ 0:51:57So even after ten years, 78% of somali immigrant households continue to be on welfare. Do you know what that number is for native minnesota headed households? >> again. >> you're using somali immigrant, immigrant headed households. >> if I can just answer the question, are you using the phrase native minnesotans? The majority of somali minnesotans are as minnesotan as any of us. They were born in the united states. It's only 8000 of the 108,000 somalis.
▶ 0:52:29>> nevertheless, the welfare usage is astoundingly different. Let me ask you again, does that make minnesota stronger or weaker? >> again, I like the opportunity to answer the question here. So again, the majority of somali minnesotans are born in the united states, as I understand it. >> okay. Well, what what percentage of of working age somalis who have been in the us for ten years or more, ten years or more, how many of them speak english very well? >> I don't know. >> about half. The answer is about half.
▶ 0:52:58That seems pretty low, doesn't it? >> again, I keep trying. >> it doesn't sound like something that makes our our country stronger to me, and I think most americans would agree with me on that. I would need to move on. Miss robbins, when would you say we concretely knew that widespread welfare fraud was occurring in minnesota? >> there have been reports since 2009 from the office of legislative auditor. I would say the credible reports on child care fraud started surfacing 2011 to 2013.
▶ 0:53:29>> so for over a decade. >> yes, sir. >> when do you think governor waltz knew about this fraud? >> from the very beginning. He was running for governor in 2018, when there were prosecutions going on, when there was an old report, uh, active uh, cases in the news all the time. >> and what was the waltz administration's response? >> they actually did nothing when they got into office.
▶ 0:53:53And lieutenant governor peggy flanagan had been on the committee in the legislature that had hearings on child care fraud. And when they got into office, they they did put $5 million into a little more money, but nothing changed. >> but nothing. And let me ask you, Mr. hudson, thank you for being here. Um, did those who who commit this fraud, do they typically vote for republicans or democrats, in your opinion? >> in my opinion, thank you for qualifying like that.
▶ 0:54:21I would say they most definitely overwhelmingly vote for democrats. >> do they typically donate to republicans or democrats? >> not to my knowledge. They they don't donate to republicans. They donate to democrats. In my opinion, yes. >> got it. So so would you say this is, uh, the somali population is an important demographic for democrats to win over politically? >> unquestionably. >> got it. And do you think it would have hurt democrats politically political standing with the somali population to investigate this fraud? >> very clearly. >> got it.
▶ 0:54:48So in other words, you're saying that there was a political incentive to cover up widespread somali fraud. Is that right? >> 100%? >> let me ask all three of you, um, did the waltz administration and democrats intentionally, in your opinion, overlook this fraud while it was happening for political gain? I'll start with you, miss robbins. >> absolutely.
▶ 0:55:06We have credible whistleblower reports that the department of human services administration, up to the oig and the commissioner met with a group called the minnesota minority child care association multiple times, and that they were trying to weaken protections we wanted. We had several changes we wanted to do, and they opposed all of them. >> and Mr. hudson and miss rarick. And then my time is up. >> I would agree, absolutely. >> the whistleblowers confirm it. >> got it. Thank you.
▶ 0:55:36>> chair now recognizes ranking member garcia. >> thank you. I just want to clarify one thing. I just want to just be very clear that a vast majority of those somali minnesotans are united states citizens, and somali americans have as much right to access those services or any somalis as united states members of congress. They have the same right to access services. And we're talking about us citizens. Let me also just clarify, Mr. hudson, you said in your opening remarks, um, that I had said that no fraud exists.
▶ 0:56:05And I think you can feel free to run the tape. That's exactly not what I said. What I have been talking about, what's important for us to remember is that wherever fraud exists, we should take it on and we should hold folks accountable. And when people commit fraud and people get hurt, there's going to be repercussions, as there should be. We can all agree to that. We want to hold fraudsters accountable.
▶ 0:56:28We want to protect the victims, innocent, innocent people so those that can access services can continue to access services across this country. That's how it should work. But we also know that's not how it should work, according to president trump. Now let's actually talk about real fraud and some fraudsters. Now, we all know that recently here in florida, president trump granted a get out of jail free pardon to philip esformes. Now, Mr.
▶ 0:56:53Esformes is a nursing home mogul convicted of schemes to defraud medicare and medicaid of $1.3 billion. Where is that hearing? This guy just didn't steal from taxpayers. He took advantage of thousands of people admitting them to nursing homes and living facilities that could not help them. His network of of doctors gave out dangerous and harmful treatments and prescribing opioids to drug addicts just to make more money.
▶ 0:57:17In 2019, when esformes was sentenced, trump's own doj issued a press release that quoted the man behind one of the biggest health care frauds in history will be spending 20 years in prison, 20 years in prison, the doj said. Just 14 months later, donald trump let him walk free with a pardon. In october of this year on his 56th birthday. Birthday esformes was arrested on domestic violence charges.
▶ 0:57:43Let's look at another case, another trump case, joseph schwartz. He was sentenced for taking advantage of nursing home residents and workers and defrauding the government of $38 million. Where is that hearing? Schwartz paid lobbyists almost a million to secure a pardon from the president, and it worked. In november of this last year, a full and unconditional pardon was granted by president trump for this enormous amount of fraud.
▶ 0:58:10Now, let's look at paul walzak, a tax cheat whose crimes cost taxpayers almost $1.1 billion, dwarfing what we're talking about today, as he made lavish purchases like a $1 million luxury yacht. Now, Mr. walzak was supposed to spend 18 months in prison. A fraudster who we want to go after, he should have been held accountable for his crimes, and he was supposed to pay 4.4 million back to the taxpayers.
▶ 0:58:40While this pardon application was pending, his mom was invited to a $1 million per person candlelight dinner at mar a lago with president trump. She attended, and less than three weeks later, her son received a full and unconditional pardon. Now, I'm assuming that our witnesses here today would would think this is horrific fraud and would disagree with these pardons. I'd like to just do you agree with this? Pardon? I'd like to begin with our witnesses, sir.
▶ 0:59:08>> I have not looked at the facts of the case or the law, so I cannot make a statement on that. >> so you you. >> you can't make a statement on these parties. You haven't read anything about them in the news. Apparently these are, these are these are pardons to criminals and fraudsters that are witnesses clearly have no interest in. Now, in trump's america, rich people can rip innocent people off whenever they want and get a pardon. And the answer to fraud here is to cut off benefits to innocent people.
▶ 0:59:37Most of these folks are innocent people and kids who just need their services. Donald trump's decision to freeze 10 billion in social services funding to five states does not hold criminals accountable. It hurts the very people who are harmed by fraud in the first place. Mr. ballou, just finally, you are from minnesota yourself. How are minnesotans on the ground being hurt by trump's political retribution crusade?
▶ 1:00:04>> well, the practical effect is that the pause on payments for child care services and medicaid services is going to result in hundreds of thousands of the neediest minnesotans being denied, in some cases literally life saving payments. >> and also, as we've been discussing here, there is a large, of course, immigrant community, a community that makes minnesota stronger. Can you tell us how innocent people in the somali community are being directly harmed? >> well, you hear about the threats that are happening against the somali community.
▶ 1:00:34You're hearing about the broad demonization that's happening against them in the in the media generally. I think, you know, just I know we're running out of time here. But, you know, if you look at the statistics, I believe it's 82 somali americans have been indicted so far, out of 108,000 somali minnesotans in the state overall, that's something like a 0.07%, uh, criminal rate.
▶ 1:00:55You know, when you compare that to one third of all americans have a criminal record, and I think it's 40% or approximately of, uh, white men under the age of 23 have been arrested. Um, I don't think the statistics really compare. >> thank you. Sir, I yield back. >> without objection. House majority whip emmer, representative finstad fischbach and stauber of minnesota are waived on the committee for purpose of questioning the witnesses at today's hearing.
▶ 1:01:23Without objection. So ordered. >> Mr. chairman, I recognition to make two motions for subpoenas. >> I was going to recognize the whip, but if you have a motion or state, your, um.
▶ 1:01:38>> I'd like to make a motion to subpoena neville singham, a us billionaire with reported ties to the ccp that's been funding extremist organizations, fueling division and civil unrest in this country, especially regarding the ice riots last summer, as well as I'd like to make a motion to subpoena the adl ceo, jonathan greenblatt, for stifling free speech by listing the phrase america first as hate speech and turning point usa as a hate group. >> okay, motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of the committee hearing.
▶ 1:02:06Uh, the committee will now proceed with today's point of order. >> Mr. chairman, will we get a written copy of that? Because that was a lot to go through. >> okay. Yeah, we'll we'll make we'll work with, uh, representative luna and get a copy. Thank you. All right. Chair now recognizes, uh, majority whip from minnesota, Mr. emmer. >> thank you, chairman comer, for holding this important hearing. As I said on monday, good riddance to governor walz. But he cannot escape accountability for the estimated $9 billion in fraud. How did this happen?
▶ 1:02:36And where the hell has the twin cities media been? The star tribune is complicit. They have had this story for years. If you just heard and they've refused to report anything on it. In fact, they continue to try and cover up. Our minnesota republican colleagues have demanded answers and accountability for years, but have seen nothing from walz, his administration, our democrat colleagues like tina smith, amy klobuchar, ilhan omar and angie craig, or the worthless star tribune.
▶ 1:03:07Thank god for president donald j. Trump for finally bringing attention to this issue. Representative rarick, I'm going to begin with you. You've been working on this issue for years. You've spoken to the whistleblowers personally. Is that correct? >> that is correct. >> you have an understanding that 1000 whistleblowers running an account on x have come forward to expose fraud in minnesota state agencies, and they have been entirely ignored by tim walz and have even been retaliated against. Is that accurate? >> that is correct. Even this morning I got another message.
▶ 1:03:38>> well, in your experience, are their claims credible or are they politically motivated against walls? >> they're completely credible, not politically motivated. >> in fact, many of these are walz administration employees, correct? >> they are actually democrats as well. >> can you quickly give us one example of the retaliation these folks have been facing? >> yes, I can.
▶ 1:03:58In my opening statement, I mentioned that the most severe ones was that they would be fired with cause, so they couldn't have unemployment insurance, that they would be blacklisted from all state agencies. And I would bet, I bet that it's also hennepin county and ramsey county, as you know, those are democrat run, um, and and much, much more. >> based on what you've learned representative over the last several years. Do you have any doubt that governor tim walz knew about this fraud as it was occurring?
▶ 1:04:28>> he absolutely knew that it was occurring. >> thank you. The housing stability services program was estimated to cost about 2.6 million per per year, but before it was shut down last october, it was on track to run about 122,000,000 in 2025. In fact, I think they sucked 161 million out of it from the point it started in 2020 until it was finally shut down. Isn't that correct? >> that is correct. And joe thompson believes that 90% of that was fraud. >> yeah.
▶ 1:04:55The quality learing center, as uncovered by nick shurley received almost 10 million in funding. Is that accurate? >> I believe it is. >> there are more than 80 autism centers in minnesota under investigation. Is that true? >> I believe it is. >> yes. It's clear that someone is criminally complicit. You can't just let this amount of money get out of your administration over a period of seven years without knowing there was a hearing in the state regarding the fraudulent housing stabilization program.
▶ 1:05:23But before that hearing, governor walz fired the official who was slated to testify so that they could not testify and expose what was happening under governor walz. Watch as governor walz or attorney general ellison fired anyone else? To your knowledge, representative? >> uh, not to my knowledge. And that was eric grumdahl. And his administration believes that he was, uh, he was not fired. But I say he was fired because it was too convenient. >> great.
▶ 1:05:49Representative hudson, is it true that 90% of the individuals charged, regardless of what your colleague on the panel just said, with his facts and figures, 90% of the individuals charged or indicted with the $250 million feeding our future covid fraud are of somali descent. >> I believe that to be correct. >> are you aware that a 2021 video Mr. ellison promised that he would obstruct his own agencies in their investigation of somali fraud? >> I am very much aware of that.
▶ 1:06:21>> it's no wonder that criminals in the somali community felt they were free to steal taxpayer dollars. I'm going to ask you the same question I asked marian. Do you have any doubt that tim walz knew about this fraud as it was occurring? >> none whatsoever. >> walz and ellison were protecting fraudsters instead of investigating them, and it was purposeful. And it's no coincidence that this is occurring largely in the somali community. Walz made a sanctuary state, minnesota sanctuary state. He gave free health care, free college and free licenses to illegals.
▶ 1:06:51And walls looked the other way when somali immigrants were stealing. Representative robbins, do you have any doubt that tim walz knew about this fraud as it was occurring? >> none whatsoever. >> so all three of you have no doubt in your minds that tim walz knew about the 9 billion of fraud during his tenure as governor and did nothing about it. It looks like my time is about to expire. And I do want to say to all of you, uh, on behalf of minnesota, thank you for being here, and justice will be served. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:07:23Chairman. >> thank you. Mr. chair now recognizes miss norton from washington, D.C. >> thank you, mister chair. Federal assistance programs are vital for keeping working families afloat and children healthy.
▶ 1:07:41Nearly 25% of adults and nearly 50% of children, uh, rely on federal assistance, including child care funding, medicaid and children's health insurance program, and the supplemental nutrition assistance program.
▶ 1:08:02Fraudsters targeting government programs have uniquely, have a uniquely harmful impact on americans. They deprive taxpayers of efficient use of their funds, deprive intended recipients, and sometimes the most vulnerable groups in our society of the services and assistance they are eligible
▶ 1:08:33For, and they reduce the public trust in government. But answers to fraud is not to freeze. Critical assistance. Critical safety net programs and cause more suffering for americans who are already struggling to afford everyday expenses.
▶ 1:08:58I have worked with my colleagues on the government operations subcommittee on ways that federal agencies can identify and prevent fraud before payments are made. My oversight committee, democratic colleagues and I are also proud co-sponsors of congressional men's taxpayer funds oversight accountability act.
▶ 1:09:27This legislation would strengthen the ability of federal agencies to reliable, reliably track federal funds, enabling more efficient analysis to identify and stop fraudsters.
▶ 1:09:42We can continue to reduce fraud and protect funding from bad actors by empowering oversight bodies like inspectors general and the government accountability office, which are often best equipped to investigate red flags and sound the alarm when there are problems to address.
▶ 1:10:13Applying additional safeguards requires a balanced approach that does not pull the rug out from under people, including children, who rely on help. These programs provide.
▶ 1:10:28Congress must not allow partizan actors to seize on the misdeeds of a few in order to to gut the vital programs that provide access to federal health care and special and special education services, keep american children fed, and keep american program parents to work with the knowledge that
▶ 1:10:59Their children are safe. And I yield back. >> gentlelady yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. jordan from ohio. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. hudson, who is salim saeed and amy bok. >> I recognize those names as defendants in the feeding our future trial. >> they ran feeding our future, is that right? >> that's correct. >> and they've been indicted. >> that's correct. >> they've been convicted. >> that's correct. >> and they're in jail waiting sentences. Is that right? >> as I understand it. >> okay. I want to go back because earlier with Mr.
▶ 1:11:27Gill, you said they they that they overlook the fraud. I think it's worse than that. I think they helped it along. I'm going to go to this meeting that took place, uh, or actually I want to go to march 30th, 2021. Is it true? Back in march of 2021, the minnesota department of education suspended payments to feeding our future, that program, is that right? >> I believe that's correct. >> and then a month later, they resume payments. >> that's correct. >> what caused them to change their mind?
▶ 1:11:54>> in my opinion, what caused them to change their mind was pushback from their constituency within the somali community, who accused the state agencies of being racist. >> but what caused them to stop in the first place? Was it whistleblowers coming forward? Was it like this? Something's not right here. What happened? >> apologize for the misunderstanding. The reason they stopped the funds in the first place is because they had credible allegations that there was fraud taking place. >> from whistleblowers and others and just doing their job. Looking at this doesn't make sense. We got all these programs. No one's getting fed yet. Money's going out the door like crazy.
▶ 1:12:24So they suspended it, and then they started it back up. Right. Was there any was there any threat of a lawsuit from the somali community? Uh, and folks affiliated with feeding our future? >> Mr. jordan, there was more than a threat. They actually did it. >> they did. And what was the what was the alleged claim in that lawsuit? >> that they were victims of racial discrimination. >> oh, they played the race card, huh? All this fraud going on, money going out and they play the race card now was when I talked about not just overlooking it.
▶ 1:12:49There was a meeting that took place between the attorney general and affiliates of feeding our future. Is that right? >> that is correct. >> and what happened at that meeting? Do we know? >> yeah, we do, because we have it on tape. There was an audio recording made at that meeting that was entered into evidence in the feeding our future trial, and it was later revealed through work from center of the american experiment.
▶ 1:13:10The full recording and my observations of what took place in that meeting was that attorney general keith ellison was focused on one thing and one thing only, and that was keeping these folks in business. There were no questions that he asked of these folks about how the kids are doing the operation, how they're getting fed, who's being helped. Instead, the focus was entirely on ensuring that the money continues to flow.
▶ 1:13:33And I'll add that he went so far as to say that he was going to fight these people in reference to the state agencies. The state agencies are his client. >> yeah. And when you said money is going to flow, did money flow to Mr. ellison's campaign a couple of weeks later from some of the folks who were in that meeting? >> sure did. >> how much do we know how much that was? >> I do not have that number. >> so it wasn't just wasn't just overlooking the fraud. They were actively trying to make sure this program then they continued.
▶ 1:14:02And benefited from that politically with contributions to their campaign all in the same year, all in 2021, when this was all coming to a head. Is that accurate? >> that is my understanding. >> and this fraud is much bigger than this because as I look, it is just about it's like six different federal agencies department of homeland security, health and human services, small business association, housing, urban development, department of labor, department of agriculture in this program, and a bunch of others. They were shaking down the entire federal government.
▶ 1:14:30It looked like six different federal agencies over. I think you pointed out over the last 15 years. >> that's correct. >> and not only are the administration, the democrat administration overlooking it, they're helping it along. They're assisting it. They're going after whistleblowers, as your colleague pointed out, and they're benefiting from all this politically with contributions to their campaign, not to mention the voting issue that you referenced earlier as well. Is that all accurate? >> I believe so. >> oh, now there's more than six agencies involved.
▶ 1:14:59There's six federal agencies that got shaken down, but there's two other agencies involved now, the fbi and the doj. Right. How many people have been indicted? Now? >> I do not have that number in front of me, but it's significant. >> and I don't know how long you all been in the legislature. We appreciate your work, appreciate what you do. But have you ever seen anything like this in your time in the. I've never seen anything like this in miss, miss robbins, you're the chair. >> no, sir. We have never seen anything on this scale. It is unbelievable.
▶ 1:15:26As as, um, joe thompson said, it is breathtaking and cannot be overstated. >> yeah, well, god bless you all. Miss, miss, miss. Excuse me. I'll give you the last, last word. >> thank you. So I've been there since 2013, and I have been yelled at by democrats over and over again throughout our time there to say that there is no fraud. This is just made up. >> yeah. This is this is the template. You see this all the time. The left will tell a lie. We're feeding kids when they're not. When they're just shaking down the taxpayer. The left will tell the lie.
▶ 1:15:55The media will report the lie or not report when the truth comes out. And then when you tell the truth, they call you racist. It's as old as time. We see it all the time. This this is so wrong. God bless you all for coming forward and getting the facts to the people in minnesota, and more importantly, to the people of this great country, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes mister lynch from massachusetts. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to be clear that fraud is unacceptable at any level.
▶ 1:16:24Uh, however, I did did have an opportunity to spend the day with, uh, a bunch of my kids in my district at my local, uh, head start center in quincy and, uh, the wahlberg center. And they, they actually are able to feed those kids, uh, breakfast, lunch and a snack for $6 a day.
▶ 1:16:45And I just want to say from this committee, this investigative investigative committee, if we're really looking for fraud, if we're truly looking for fraud, uh, in addition to all the cases that Mr. ballou, uh, listed, uh, we don't need to go far. I can even suggest the address. 1600 pennsylvania ave. If we're looking for fraud in this country, that's a great place to start.
▶ 1:17:14That's a that's a gold mine for looking for fraud. And I'll just give one example. You know, you don't have to go back in time very far to, to to see a great example of the fraud, uh, that's been put upon this country. Uh, last month, uh, president trump put his name on the john f kennedy center for the performing arts.
▶ 1:17:39For those of you who are too young to remember, jfk was a war hero from my state. He was an irish catholic, first catholic elected president, fought a lot of bigotry during his time trying to become president. He actually stood up to the russians. But he was a war hero, a decorated war hero. He's the only united states president to ever have received the purple heart.
▶ 1:18:06He also received the the medal of valor from the the navy and the marine corps because during world war two, uh, he was commanding a pt boat, pt 109, his vessel was struck by a destroyer in the south pacific, and he actually risked his life to save his crew members.
▶ 1:18:25And after he was assassinated, lbj, lyndon baines johnson, uh, his successor, and the united states congress at that time recognized his service and sacrifice to this country by naming the the the performing arts center after him. He had raised most of the money to build that center.
▶ 1:18:50He and and jacqueline kennedy, and it is shameful. It is. It is a case of stolen valor for this president to put his name above the name of john f kennedy. That is a fraud being perpetrated on this country right now.
▶ 1:19:12And if we're really interested in in rooting out fraud, how about starting right there? I have legislation that will take trump's name off that off that building and restore it. You know, congress acknowledged kennedy's service and sacrifice to that to our country. He sacrificed everything, everything for this country.
▶ 1:19:39And yet we have allowed this to happen, and we have allowed that fraud, that that valor to be stolen from john f kennedy. It's wrong. It is wrong.
▶ 1:19:53And and while I know trump has his supporters and his minions, and there is no depth to the shame that they will stoop to, but we as americans should defend, defend the history, defend the goodness that has been done by by previous leaders.
▶ 1:20:13It's ironic that the jacqueline kennedy actually established the white house historical society, and she did so in a manner that she said we should honor every president within the white house, regardless of party.
▶ 1:20:33But because of the service and the the the sacrifice that they have made on behalf of our country, that's a much different sentiment that that is held at the white house today. When you see the shameful plaques that are putting up been put up by this president denigrating, uh, previous presidents and their service to this country.
▶ 1:20:59So I hope my colleagues will join me in that legislation to restore the john f kennedy center for the performing arts and eliminate this fraud, glaring fraud that's being perpetrated on the american people. Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> chair now recognizes byron donalds from the great state of florida. >> thank you. Chairman.
▶ 1:21:24Uh, before we begin, I have a letter to submit for the record titled collective request for congressional oversight systematic retaliation and governance failure at the minnesota department of human services. Chairman. This letter was written by the whistleblowers and has been provided to the committee. I want to submit that for the record. >> without objection. So ordered. >> uh, miss rarick, first of all, thank you for your service to the state of minnesota.
▶ 1:21:48I want to refer back to your commentary, um, about a meeting where the lieutenant governor of the state of minnesota, uh, lieutenant governor flanagan came and admonished these whistleblowers. Can you go into more detail about what was said in this meeting? >> thank you, Mr. congressman. Uh, so I don't have any more detail other than what I read into the record. Unfortunately, it was obviously a public meeting, and there were hundreds of dhs employees.
▶ 1:22:14So department of human services employees there. Um, it was a story that's been reported multiple times on the x page, but I don't have any more details than that other than the fact that that wasn't the only time that she retaliated. >> uh, do you think that the lieutenant governor was operating outside of the purview of governor walz? >> so it's interesting the timing. And it was before he ran as the vice president.
▶ 1:22:39And so she was completely almost tied at the hip with governor walz at that time in history. >> I think it's important for people to understand that in virtually every state in the country, the lieutenant governor is essentially chosen by the governor. And so lieutenant governor is typically do not operate outside of the purview of the governor. It's kind of their job to, you know, play qb2, if you will, to the governor.
▶ 1:23:02So would it be, um, would it be clear to state that the lieutenant governor's comments, trying to railroad whistleblowers, trying to demean whistleblowers and discourage whistleblowers, was at the directive of governor walz? >> uh, you can definitely assume that because, like I said, at that moment in time, up until the point where the governor ran for vp, she was seen at literally every press conference. She was in, all the meetings, they were tied at the hip. They were always together.
▶ 1:23:32So if she was saying it, he had approved it. I'm certain of it. >> well, I guess you could say she's kind of a knucklehead, too. Uh, moving on, the list of programs in the fraud in minnesota are rampant. You have the child care assistance program. You have the feeding our future. You have a housing, the housing stabilization services. You have the early intensive development and behavioral, uh, behavioral intervention. You have integrated community supports. Um, miss robbins, you're the chair of the investigative committee. Um, the depth of fraud that you have seen.
▶ 1:24:01Were there controls in place in the state of minnesota that could have prevented this fraud? And were these controls ignored by the walz administration and by the department of human services? >> absolutely. So we have many whistleblower reports talking about how dhs undermined ability to strengthen internal controls. So, for example, uh, there was an effort for for the child care assistance program.
▶ 1:24:30They have a clear and convincing evidence standard to disqualify someone from being a provider where all the other programs are a lower standard, preponderance of the evidence. There was an effort to make this a lower standard, so it was easier to disqualify people to preponderance. And the minnesota minority child care association, which was run by a group of somali providers, uh, opposed it. And dhs went along with their recommendation.
▶ 1:24:55And in in a similar vein, we were trying to reduce the number of, uh, child care employees with children that could work in these child care centers, because that was one of the vectors of fraud, and they opposed that. >> so you have the somali community who on purpose was petitioning the state of minnesota to lower the standards, lower the standards, to be able to make sure that fraud cannot be caught. Is that correct?
▶ 1:25:23>> well, they wanted to keep the standard clear and convincing, which makes it harder to disqualify people. >> so it makes it harder for them to be disqualified from wasting taxpayer funds. Is that absolutely. Okay. Uh, miss robinson, I want to stay with you. I want to talk about use of funds. You've talked about, uh, some of these funds were used to buy property in kenya. >> yes, sir. >> property in turkey. Do I have that correct? Yes. Uh, remittances back to somalia? Yes.
▶ 1:25:46I think it's important for the committee to understand that these remittances, in part, are, are are used in what's called the hawala. I want to make sure the terminology. Right. The hawala network. Miss robbins, can you speak to what the hawala network is? >> yes. So it's a it's an informal network where someone brings, uh, goes to a place in minneapolis, which is like a a money exchange or a money sending site. And they say, I want to send x amount of dollars. And then there's an a receiving site in somalia.
▶ 1:26:16And they put the cash, take the cash out so money doesn't cross the border. It's an order for money here that gets transmitted to somalia. >> for the for the time. Because I'm out of time. I want to expound in somalia and other parts in the middle east, in the middle east region writ large, a hawala network is a is a bunch of money exchangers hand to hand, not bank account to bank account. Exactly.
▶ 1:26:41And what is clear in somalia and other parts is that al-shabab, the largest al qaeda al qaeda affiliate in somalia, they have their hands all through this network. So taxpayer money, united states dollars that are being remitted into somalia, in part, have been utilized or have fallen into the hands of al-shabab. Do you think that's a correct assessment?
▶ 1:27:05>> yes, we have plenty of evidence of that from, uh, money directly going to al-shabab, but then also indirectly because they take a cut of whatever gets sent to somalia. >> thank you so much, chairman. I know I'm over. Thank you for your for the additional time. >> Mr. chair. I seek recognition for unanimous consent request. >> chair. Recognize Mr. presley.
▶ 1:27:24>> I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record in december 2025, article from the minnesota star tribune titled contrary to trump's claims, somalis add $8 billion to minnesota's economy. >> without objection, so ordered chair recognizes ro khanna from california. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. chairman, fraud, waste and abuse is not a partizan issue.
▶ 1:27:53Fdr in 1932 with the new deal railed against inefficiencies and fraud and waste in state and local government. I want to be clear, many in the democratic party stand against the misappropriation or misuse of taxpayer dollars. The reality is, as a progressive democrat, I believe the ultra wealthy should pay more.
▶ 1:28:16But I want that money going for the health care, the child care and the education of the american people. It offends me if there is waste or fraud in any of our states. That's why I called for people in my state of california to share stories of inefficiencies, fraud, or wasteful spending.
▶ 1:28:38I partnered with the all in podcast to advertise that we need to be responsible stewards of our tax dollars, and I believe we should be doing this for all 50 states. I challenge my colleagues on the republican side. Let's have an audit of all 50 states to make sure that government money is being spent wisely. We don't need to make these partizan hearings.
▶ 1:29:05Every american has a stake in making sure that they have a receipt for where their tax dollars are going. Every american has a stake. If we're going to ask them to pay tax to make sure that that money isn't being wasted. And I'd like to see this committee work together to stand up for basic fairness of the american taxpayers. I certainly am going to do that in the state of california, and we should be doing that in all 50 states. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:29:36>> thank you, representative kahn. And I believe you're sincere, and we want to work with you on fraud in any state. If it's a republican state, democrat state, we don't care. We the mission of this committee is to root out waste, fraud, abuse and mismanagement. And we would gladly work with you. Thank you. Mr. yes, sir. Mr. chairman, Mr. chairman, uh, chair recognizes Mr. biggs from arizona. I have a a uc request. Proceed. Thank you.
▶ 1:30:02Uh, first one is arizona has recovered just 5% of taxpayer dollars lost in a $2.5 billion medicaid fraud scheme. Without objection. So ordered. And I'll save the rest for the future. Now I'm going to. I've got I've got a bunch more, but not right now. Mr. okay. Thank you, thank you. Uh, I'll chair recognize myself for five minutes of questioning yesterday, minnesota's office of the legislative auditor published an audit of the state's department of human services. Behavioral health administration grants.
▶ 1:30:31I'd like to enter that report and its cover letter into the record. Without objection. So ordered. The cover letter of this report states. Quote. However, during the course of our audit, we identified a number of documents that the behavioral health administration either backdated or created after our audit happened. End quote.
▶ 1:30:51It sounds like governor tim walz's department of human services may have been fabricating evidence by creating documentation after the fact to mislead voters, to mislead auditors. This new report noted that one grantee, who received nearly $680,000 from this agency for one month's work, but could not provide any documentation or proof that any work was actually completed.
▶ 1:31:17What's more, and this is the kicker, the report notes that the grant manager who approved this money left the agency within days of approving the grant to take a job with the very same grantee that they approved money for. So very quickly, representative roberts, have you ever seen anything like this in your time as a member of the minnesota's fraud prevention and state agency oversight policy committee.
▶ 1:31:43>> we have heard whistleblower reports of backdating and falsification before, and we also have a record of earlier in the c cap, the child care fraud, where they would allow the providers to submit records far after the investigation and accept them as true. So clearly, this has been a pattern at the agency and it's unacceptable. >> unbelievable. And we want to work with you. We want to work with these whistleblowers. We're serious about this. The trump administration is on the ground.
▶ 1:32:11We want to catch these people, and we want to put them behind bars, and we want to hold any politician that that participated in these schemes accountable. Representative hudson, who's to blame for this dysfunction? >> well, the blame can go around quite a bit. But as tim walz himself said, the buck stops with him. >> representative robbins, do you have any examples of how the waltz administration blocked investigators from moving forward with high priority fraud investigations? >> yes, we do, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:32:38I've met with whistleblowers and and gotten documents from them about how after the original c-cap whistleblower report came out in march and april of 2019, subsequent to that, there was a there was an office of inspector general within dhs that had investigative authority to do surveillance warrants and seize, uh, electronics. And they were shut down. They were told they could no longer do criminal investigations.
▶ 1:33:04They were told they could no longer meet with the bureau of criminal apprehension agents that were assigned to them without supervisor's approval, and instead, when they found it's the one of the other members talked about how they changed the language. They went from calling it fraud to calling it overbilling, and they created an overbilling committee to all all the investigative agents now couldn't do criminal investigations, and they had to flag issues of overbilling.
▶ 1:33:29And then a committee would decide if any of that overbilling would be recouped. >> committee by appointed by waltz. >> no. Appointed within dhs. >> o appointed by the un bureaucracy. >> yes. So? So they shut down criminal investigations. They created a committee to call it overbilling and decide if overbilling investigations would even try to. >> this is evidence that tim waltz interfered with investigators who knew there was fraud. The rumors of fraud have been taking place. I've been hearing them for a decade.
▶ 1:34:00And yet he interfered to try to obstruct their investigation of fraud. >> yes. His agency shut down criminal investigations. >> representative hudson, we didn't get $9 billion stolen overnight. How did the fraud in minnesota become so widespread? >> well, listen, let me give the maximum benefit of the doubt that these programs were designed for a beneficial legislative intent.
▶ 1:34:24Of course, the way that it happened was by when people recognized that the system wasn't working and they raised those concerns. Those concerns were ignored. And a culture suppressing, raising those concerns was fostered by the walls administration. >> so obviously there was a lack of oversight by the waltz administration. Why would governor waltz let $9 billion in fraud occur? Mr. hudson.
▶ 1:34:54>> in my opinion, because it was politically beneficial to democrats. Again, the somali community is a huge constituency group, and we've had some tight races in minnesota, and it makes a difference for them. >> because it's a huge part of the democrat voting base in minnesota. Is that correct? >> correct. >> representative rarick, governor waltz announcement not to seek a third term seems to be an admission of guilt, I think, to most americans, and an attempt by the democrat establishment to cover up his role in the rampant fraud.
▶ 1:35:21He claims this is so he can focus on defending the people of minnesota against criminals who prey on our generosity. As as someone who has been in the minnesota legislature longer than tim walz has been governor, can can governor waltz actually be trusted to defend minnesotans when he allowed fraud to fester for his entire tenure as governor? >> Mr. chairman, if governor walz was serious about stopping fraud, he would have done it in 2019 when he took office.
▶ 1:35:49He has done nothing other than appoint commissioners that suppressed fraud and retaliated against their own employees. >> and just think, this man was almost elected vice president of the united states. This was the pick for the sitting vice president of the united states to be the next vice president of united states. This is unbelievable.
▶ 1:36:13Uh, if people aren't held accountable, if people don't go to jail for this, this will continue not just in minnesota but other states. And we're going to do everything we can on this committee to work with you all and every whistleblower in minnesota and any other of the 49 states who wants to come forward to expose waste, fraud and abuse. We're going to work with you and eliminate it and hold people accountable. Uh, chair now recognizes Mr. mfume. Is that right? >> Mr. chairman? I just have a request. >> okay. Go ahead.
▶ 1:36:41>> uh, first one is from the american immigration council. Immigrants contribute billions to federal and state taxes each year, as well as immigrants do not commit more crimes in the us despite fear mongering. >> without objection. So ordered. Chair now recognizes Mr. mfume from maryland. >> thank you very much, Mr. chair. I want to thank you and the ranking member for bringing us together on this today.
▶ 1:37:03I have, uh, a request for unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from james clark, the inspector general of the minnesota department of human services, uh, directed to the fraud prevention and state agency oversight committee of the house of representatives in minnesota, requesting information on the alleged 700 tips that have been received.
▶ 1:37:33Uh, I'd like to enter that with unanimous consent. Mr. >> without objection. So ordered. >> Mr. chair, I know we're up against the clock. Many of us are trying to get to the special briefings on the action that has taken place in venezuela, and so we are leaving one by one. I do want to try to get a couple of things in, uh, before I have to depart. Also, I want to thank you again as ranking member of this committee, subcommittee on government operations.
▶ 1:37:57Uh, it has been my focus to combat waste, fraud and abuse within the federal government for the last three and a half years. Regardless of what side you're on, what side of the aisle or what you believe, as has been stated, uh, everybody should be against fraud.
▶ 1:38:13It requires our collective attention to address the issue and to minimize the consequences that we are seeing, uh, that are taking place, not minimize the consequences to the perpetrators, uh, but minimize the hurt to taxpayers in this country. As ranking member of that committee, we have committed ourselves to fight this full and necessary issue over and over again.
▶ 1:38:37And I believe that from most of the people I've heard, we all are in concurrence that stealing from taxpayers is the wrong thing, period. Now, the distinguished gentleman from texas, Mr.
▶ 1:38:50Sessions and I, who is the chairman of that subcommittee, have been working together on a bipartisan basis to create a congressional scorecard to assess the progress of key government spending programs in reducing fraud and improper payments, both through the federal government and through states.
▶ 1:39:09Additionally, through the american rescue plan, congress has provided funding for prac, as well as the pandemic analytics center of excellence to deter, detect and prevent fraud across multiple state agencies and multiple federal agencies. I've also co-led several bills here in the house that address that type of fraud.
▶ 1:39:32Congress should defend these programs that seek to find a way to root out this problem, and we need to do that in a bipartisan, nonpartisan way. Uh, the council of inspector generals for integrity and efficiency, in their report a year and a half ago to the congress and to the president, found that every dollar spent on the office of inspector general, uh, as a result, $26 was saved for every one that was spent.
▶ 1:40:01Now, that's a return on investment that taxpayers deserve. And unfortunately, the trump administration illegally defunded segui last year. And I've joined with my colleagues, several of whom on this committee, in leading several letters to oppose that unlawful set of firings of inspector generals.
▶ 1:40:20I urge this administration again and my colleagues, to restore the congressionally designated funding to cigie and the offices of inspectors general, so that we might be able to continue the work necessary to combat waste, fraud and abuse. Before I yield. I want to thank Mr.
▶ 1:40:40Ro khanna for his comments, uh, that this issue should be nonpartisan, that when we make it something other than that, we take away from our ability to bring about change and we, in some sort of way, chip away at the sort of belief that the public has that we are really serious about doing something here. So it was concerning to me also to have heard some of the xenophobia that began, uh, earlier in this hearing, Mr. chairman, uh, differences, differences versus similarities.
▶ 1:41:11And when we do that, we create the problems that we always are trying to to do away with, uh, asking witnesses to give their opinion of somalis as a general group of americans asking, uh, witnesses their opinion. Do you think they vote for democrats? Do you think they just give money to democrats asking their opinion? What is your opinion of somalians? What is your we might as well say, what is your opinion of jews? What is your opinion of black people?
▶ 1:41:40What is your opinion of latinos, that sort of thing. Although it may sound good and play to the issue, creates a slippery slope. I want to caution people a slippery slope. We heard earlier that of over 100,000 somalis in this country, 87 were indicted in minnesota. That comes out to 0.087%. Those sort of things create, I think, the disbelief that a lot of people have that we're about doing the business that we ought to do.
▶ 1:42:10And it gets back to the point that the gentleman from california raised that we've got to find a way to keep this from being partizan and to keep it from being subjective. I would yield back, Mr. chair. >> gentlemen. Your chair. Mr. biggs, before I go to Mr. crane. Mr. biggs, you have a you see. Yes. Yes, sir. Uh, first one is tim waltz claims he fired people amid fraud scandals but won't name names. Next one. Waltz appointees fail to stop rampant minnesota fraud.
▶ 1:42:36Next one exclusive dhs insider claims systemic issues in addressing fraud. Next one. Here's what the trump administration is doing to crush minnesota's fraud epidemic. Next one minnesota fraud committee chair claims walz turned a blind eye to fraud warnings for years. And I'll yield back. Without objection. So ordered chair recognizes the gentleman from arizona, Mr. crane, for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:43:03Grateful to have elected officials from minnesota here today who can provide more intimate information regarding this mind blowing fraud coming from the somali community in minnesota. According to assistant U.S. attorney joe thompson, there is an estimated 9 billion or more in fraud. Many obviously believe that this is just the tip of the iceberg. I want to thank and acknowledge the independent reporters nick shirley and dave hawk, who broke this story wide open.
▶ 1:43:30Today, I'm introducing a bill to award nick shirley with the congressional medal for his work in exposing astronomical fraud in minnesota. And the reason I'm doing this is because the american people are sick and tired of this, and they're sick and tired of mainstream media not covering any of it. The biggest question that most americans, however, have is this is this incompetence at the executive level with the governor and attorney general, are they involved in complicit? I'm going to start with you, miss robbins.
▶ 1:44:01>> thank you. Sir. My understanding is that they were certainly aware of the fraud and they did nothing to stop it. And there were plenty of opportunities and their commissioners and their agencies also undermined efforts to tighten internal controls. >> and according to miss rarick, I believe you said that they were actually going after whistleblowers to suppress the exposé of this fraud. Is that is that correct? >> that is what the whistleblowers have said repeatedly. >> thank you.
▶ 1:44:29One thing that is so alarming is the reporting that many of these fraudulent companies are then donating the stolen money back to the same democrats that are protecting them and advocate for these very programs. Is is that correct? Mr. hudson? >> I would agree with that statement. >> well, we just had one of my democrat colleagues said, these are just opinions, you know, are these guys donating money back to democrats? >> yes they are. >> I'd like to enter into the record, Mr.
▶ 1:44:58Chairman, an article from breitbart news saying with the title being database searches show somali fraudsters funding democrat politicians. So these aren't opinions. Without objection. Actually, reporting on this. Um, are you guys aware you guys are elected officials in minnesota, right? Are you guys aware of the reporting that some of the stolen money is getting funneled back to the islamic terror groups group, al-shabab in somalia, Mr. robbins? >> yes, sir.
▶ 1:45:28And we have evidence of it going back as far as 2012, where a man was convicted of sending 21,000 to al-shabab in 2011, to minnesota, women were convicted of sending money to different, uh, groups. Someone else, um, we have multiple references of how the al-shabab takes a cut when the money gets to somalia through the network. So I think there's ample evidence on this and federal convictions. >> yeah. That's outrageous.
▶ 1:45:59Obviously, one of the biggest reasons so many americans are outright outraged by this massive exposure is because we generously and often foolishly allow immigrants and people into our country, and then they rob the american people blind while our debt skyrockets and the american people struggle to make ends meet. What do you guys are you guys hearing from your constituents the same outrage that I'm hearing from mine about this issue? >> minnesotans are fed up everywhere I go in the state. Minnesotans are so frustrated.
▶ 1:46:30As I said in my opening remarks, we are a highly taxed state and they are angry that this much of their money, $9 billion, is being absconded by criminals. >> Mr. hudson, are you just hearing from republicans on this, or are democrat constituents like, oh my god, I'm struggling to put my kids in school, struggling to make ends meet, and my tax dollars are being robbed by people, and then they're sending it all over the place. And this is complete fraud. What is going on and why hasn't anything been done about it?
▶ 1:47:01>> I'll give you a personal example. So my family, my in-laws in particular, are politically diverse. A lot of them vote for democrats and they're fairly apolitical. They're not, like me, all plugged in. And so I kind of used them as a bellwether for what the people are thinking across the board. Everybody is upset about this fraud.
▶ 1:47:17>> and I'm guessing when you guys bring this up, whether it's to the waltz administration, whether it's to the ag, the number one thing that comes back at you is you're a racist, you're white supremacist, or you're an islamophobe, as we've seen governor waltz now trying to answer for these questions. He's doing it at the national level. Are you guys do you guys hear the same thing at the state level as well? >> yes, absolutely. That they always pivot to the divisive. As I stated in my opening statement, it's diversion, right?
▶ 1:47:47We're going to talk about personalities. We're going to talk about partizan politics. We're going to find some way to get people yelling at each other rather than looking at the problem. >> or like you've heard my colleagues do on this panel, it's donald trump, baby. Yep, it's all about donald trump, right? The old pivot. We're not going to talk about what's going on in somalia and what's or not going to talk about what's going on in minnesota with this massive fraud scandal. We're going to talk about donald trump with my remaining seconds. Can we play the video? I have, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:48:17>> uh. >> did we run out of time? >> we did run out of time. But can we put that in the in the record with that? Can we. Thank you. >> the thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> okay. Thank you. Uh, representative crane yields back. Chair recognizes miss stansberry from new mexico. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And happy new year. Welcome to our guests. Thank you to our legislators for being here today and to our guests. Um, you know, I always I come to these committee hearings.
▶ 1:48:46I'm ready to debate the topics. I'm grateful that you're bringing this case to our attention. Yes. We need to prosecute these crimes. Period. Period. Let's do that. And I'm also grateful to see that this committee is actually conducting a hearing that is in its jurisdiction, which is oversight over government fraud.
▶ 1:49:06But I do have to say to my colleague's point that was just made that I am surprised to see the focus, given that the president of the united states and the administration are engaged in fraudulent behavior literally daily, including just a few days ago, invading a foreign country, using the united states military to take their oil, and notifying oil and gas companies before the united states congress.
▶ 1:49:32And the president claiming last night that he is personally going to control the oil and give government kickbacks to oil and gas companies. So why are we not investigating that? It definitely gives you the impression that there's a double standard in this country.
▶ 1:49:54I also want to say that I'm troubled to see that this hearing is being held in conjunction with an announcement that the administration made just yesterday, that they were going to freeze $10 billion in federal funding for child care and family assistance to five states across the country. And if you watch the president's crazy address yesterday, you heard him say it himself. But I want to say one thing, because my colleagues have pointed out all about weaponizing the government for political purposes.
▶ 1:50:23Well, these five states happen to have one thing in common. They all have democratic governors and gubernatorial elections this year. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so, my friends.
▶ 1:50:37And this, of course, comes after weeks of viral videos from a young man youtuber who was literally creeping around daycares by himself making claims about fraud that were not there.
▶ 1:50:55And then the vice president and the fbi director were retweeting these videos without even verifying if they were true, unleashing a furor of anti-immigrant and anti somali hate across the country, wherein thousands of somali people got targeted and harassed, including by the president of the united states, who literally used his platform as the president of the united states to call an entire community garbage.
▶ 1:51:24He literally said that. So we're not accusing people of being xenophobic and racist. They are being xenophobic and racist, including the president of the united states. And I want to say, for one, that I stand with the somali and the immigrant community standing here today.
▶ 1:51:45But there's a bigger policy point here, which is that this is being used as a politically expedient moment to take away the immigration status of somalis in the united states as part of the mass deportation plan of this administration.
▶ 1:52:01And it is also being used by the 2025 years in this administration to freeze critical programs that we know low income families depend on, in which they call part of the woke agenda. This is part of a larger effort to defund these programs, as we are seeing across these five states.
▶ 1:52:22So I think it's important to pull back the curtain a little bit about what is actually going on in this hearing and its coordination with the administration, that this is about, one, demonizing political opponents in democratic states during a major election cycle. Two, it's about demonizing the immigrant community to support cruel and illegal mass deportation policies.
▶ 1:52:47And three, it's about demonizing poor people and struggling families to justify taking away the basic programs that are helping them survive in this country. So I want to just close out by saying that I grew up in a low income family. Many of you have heard my story before, but as I woke up to the news that the president was freezing child care funding to these five states, I had to think about the millions of families that would be impacted by it.
▶ 1:53:14I think about my own mom, a single mom just barely struggling to get by, working multiple jobs. These programs are a lifeline. They make it possible for people like me to ultimately have a pathway to success.
▶ 1:53:34And you all are sitting here running legislation on showerheads, while millions of americans health insurance is expiring, while millions of americans can't even put food on the table right now.
▶ 1:53:49And you're over here parading around state officials, demonizing immigrants, talking about cutting basic programs, and you're passing legislation to redefine showerheads in congress while the president of the united states is illegally invading foreign countries. >> order. Gentlelady's time. >> I find it appalling. >> order. Order expired. Chair recognizes doctor fox from north carolina. Have you seen chair recognizes Mr.
▶ 1:54:17Biggs from arizona. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Have you seen request first one hhs freezes child care payments to minnesota after massive fraud. Alleged next one minnesota's quality learing center fixes sign address still misspelled minnesota made it easier to get into daycare business. Trump's deputies freeze child care payments to minnesota.
▶ 1:54:42Alleged somali fraud jonathan turley explains why feds can dig deep into somali scammers special without objection, so ordered chair recognizes Mr. gill. >> got another uc request. An article from city journal. Quote the largest funder of al shabab is the minnesota taxpayer. >> without objection to order. And I believe, Mr. fallon, you have a request. >> uh, yes. Mr. chairman, I'd like to enter into the record an article by the center of american experiment feeding our future, keith ellison caught on tape.
▶ 1:55:13>> without objection. So ordered. Chair now recognizes doctor fox from north carolina. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I thank our witnesses for being here today. Um, representative robbins, when governor walz testified before this committee last june, I reminded him that the fraud involving the nonprofit feeding our future established minnesota as ground zero for the largest covid 19 fraud scheme in the nation.
▶ 1:55:42Feeding our future took $250 million in federal funds out of the mouths of hungry children, which amounts to $1,600 per child living in poverty in minnesota, according to the fbi, the 250 million of federal taxpayer money was funneled, quote, into luxury homes, cars and lavish lifestyles while families struggle, end quote.
▶ 1:56:06The fbi stated it, quote, will not allow criminals to rob federal programs and walk away unscathed. We'll expose their schemes, dismantle their networks, and ensure they focus the full weight they face the full weight of justice. End quote. Last june, governor walz assured me that he, quote, wholeheartedly, end quote, supported the federal government's efforts to bring to justice those who stole federal taxpayer money at the expense of hungry children.
▶ 1:56:35If he had been true to his word, we would not be sitting here today. However, the committee's back today because the feeding our future scam is just the tip of the iceberg of fraud in minnesota and perhaps beyond.
▶ 1:56:51Representative robbins, democrats in your state have tried to dismiss your inquiry into the feeding our future fraud as a partizan political exercise is exposing fraud and theft of taxpayer funds a partizan activity? >> no, ma'am. As I said in our first committee hearing, it is nonpartisan. Everyone should want to protect taxpayers and vulnerable citizens.
▶ 1:57:14>> and we completely agree that representative robbins, did governor waltz work with you and your committee wholeheartedly to bring justice to those involved in the feeding our future fraud? >> no, ma'am. They have ignored the documents we have provided to them.
▶ 1:57:31We did a hearing in february of 2025 on child care fraud that was outlined in the nick shirley video, and we gave them a list of 72 child care providers that we were concerned about that got $1 million each or more. And as we saw in the shirley video last month, they have done nothing about it. >> uh, representative hudson, for several years, we've heard about whistleblowers highlighted by some of us in congress who noted instances of fraud in minnesota.
▶ 1:58:00With this in mind, the recent allegations from nick shirley regarding regarding staggering amounts of fraud involving child care centers come as no surprise. What kind of climate did governor walsh create for whistleblowers? >> well, I think he did a really good job of demonstrating for us the kind of climate that he's created yesterday when in an unhinged rant, he tried to throw deputy U.S.
▶ 1:58:27Attorney joe thompson under the bus, a guy who's been doing this for, I believe, 16 years, if he's willing to throw a deputy U.S. attorney under the bus, what do you think he's going to do to a state agency employee? That's the climate. And everybody who works for the walls administration knows it. >> thank you. Um, representative rarick, do you believe the walz administration seriously pursued whistleblowers, reports of fraud?
▶ 1:58:54>> I think that the walz administration seriously, uh, retaliated against whistleblowers and ignored them and dismissed them. And, uh, you know, in my opening statement, I talked about the threats of firing them and blacklisting them and things like that. So that's what the walz administration focused on. >> uh, representative rarick, innocent american taxpayers are collateral damage in the democrats reckless disregard for taxpayer funds.
▶ 1:59:21Hard working americans and their communities are left to pay the price. What lessons can other states and federal officials take from your work to expose the stunning amount of fraud and the network of those who enabled it that you all have exposed in minnesota? >> yeah, the answer to that is very simple. And that is if you just do simple basic good governance like reconciliation and a few other financial controls, you won't have the problems that you have here.
▶ 1:59:50And if you don't retaliate against your employees, your frontline workers that point out fraud, you won't have this problem either. >> uh, representative hudson, do you have anything you'd like to add to that? >> yes, absolutely. You have to have a a culture of good faith. And that is what is lacking in minnesota. There is not a culture of good faith.
▶ 2:00:10And you see a very strange strategy going on right now with minnesota democrats, where every day they're denying this problem, which really strikes me as bizarre because we know there are more prosecutions coming. So what are they going to say as story after story drops? And we can cite time and date where they said it wasn't a problem. >> thank you. And, Mr.
▶ 2:00:32Chairman, I'd like to note that it was the education and workforce committee when I was chair that first brought this issue to the public's attention. And, uh, we got nowhere, um, under democrat administration. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield back. >> exactly correct. Thank you. Doctor. Fox chair recognizes, uh, mister summer lee from pennsylvania. >> thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 2:00:55I think, like so many people on this committee have already articulated, nobody here believes that rooting out fraud and waste and abuse is not a top priority of this committee, of our caucus, of their conference. It is if you're on this committee, it is the top charge that we all undertake incredibly seriously.
▶ 2:01:15But I think, like so many things with the modern republican party, it's like you're skulking right around the edge of things, but too often your bigotry, the republican party's own bigotry, is imprisoning them and keeping them from ever actually doing something that helps, not harmss is another one of those instances, right? When it's a person of color. If 2 or 3, it's a pattern in the entire community must be indicted. But if it's 100 republicans, it's just not bad.
▶ 2:01:43Uh, neither here nor there, because it's important. That's why we have routinely held hearings where we, uh, actually go over with the government accountability office, their high risk list. We take it seriously, but the tone of this hearing seems to be a hypocritical witch hunt. It's hard to take it as anything but that rather than an actual oversight effort, our federal government currently has the tools to catch and prevent waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 2:02:11It's how the alleged fraud in minnesota was caught by the biden administration in the first place. Mr. blue, as a former federal prosecutor, you're familiar with some of the tools that we have, correct? >> yes. >> just briefly, could you please verify the following tools for me, yes or no? Does the government accountability office work to reduce waste, fraud and abuse? Yes. Um, do inspectors generals work towards these goals? >> absolutely.
▶ 2:02:39>> what about the general, uh, the council of the inspectors general on integrity and efficiency? >> yes. >> a whistleblower is important to rooting out waste, fraud and abuse. >> absolutely. >> has the trump administration helped or hurt or hurt these tools? >> uh, certainly hurt it by disbanding the council for inspectors general and and then ultimately firing 19 igs. >> thank you. That's right. Again and again, trump has attacked the oversight mechanisms within the federal government. He illegally fired 17 inspectors general and other key personnel.
▶ 2:03:08He goes after whistleblowers and he tries to roll back their protections. He routinely ignores the rampant corruption within his own administration. Republicans have turned a blind eye to all of this. They have held no hearings on these actions. And this hearing today isn't even about fraud. Generally within the federal benefits system, which we would welcome, republicans have cherry picked a blue state and an immigrant population vulnerable, uh, to demonize.
▶ 2:03:37To be clear, minnesota is not the only state with a fraud problem. To truly tackle waste, fraud, and abuse, we need to approach the issue with a scalpel, not a mallet. Discovering that people are committing fraud in the federal program does not mean we should smash the whole thing and end it. It means its oversight mechanisms need to be improved.
▶ 2:03:57That's why it's so disappointing to see that the minnesota house fraud prevention committee that our witness, the honorable kristen robbins chairs, has issued no reports on these uncovered schemes. It hasn't advanced any legislation to address the issue or even shared whistleblower reports with their democratic colleagues. They've just held a bunch of hearings and generated headlines, something our committee is all too familiar with. This hearing is not an effort by republicans to improve social service programs.
▶ 2:04:28It's an excuse to end them and to punish democratic led states. This has always been the plan. It's why republicans so-called big beautiful bill is estimated to cut more than 1 trillion from medicaid and chip benefits and cuts snap for 40 million people. The very children or folks with disabilities who were mentioned in the opening statements.
▶ 2:04:50Trump is also already taking advantage of the situation in minnesota after a youtuber harassed and posted unsubstantiated claims of fraud against child care centers. Hhs froze child care funding to minnesota, which would affect more than 23,000 children. Just yesterday, trump also froze approximately 10 billion in funding for programs supporting child care, social services, grants and cash assistance. And not only minnesota, but in other democratic led states of california, colorado, new york and illinois.
▶ 2:05:20No matter what party were elected to, we represent the people of our district, democrat or republican. We represent as the federal government, all people of all states, irrespective of how they voted. That's a charge that I took, and I would like and hope that you all would do the same when so many of these social service programs are being gutted and defunded, fraud becomes even more harmful as that means even less money is going to people who need it. People need these programs.
▶ 2:05:45This situation should be an opportunity to take a deep look at the programs and improve their oversight abilities, not an excuse to cut them entirely. If we care about the most vulnerable, if we care about the most marginalized, this is an opportunity to do so. And I welcome us to actually do that one day. Um, thanks. I yield back. >> miss lee. The igs are hired to identify fraud. They haven't identified fraud. The igs have failed. But anyway. >> you all have failed. >> no. >> all continue to fail. We've done nothing.
▶ 2:06:14You have the gavel, Mr. comer. We barely do hearings on anything that actually affects you have failed you. You have power here, and yet you don't do anything. Yes. >> he actually initiated this. >> sir, thank. You so much. >> for your opinion. >> you have. >> failed. >> I yield back. >> chair recognizes Mr. perry from pennsylvania for five minutes. >> uh, thank the chairman.
▶ 2:06:35And I'd just like to point out to everybody that at this very moment, we're going to consider an appropriations bill that had an earmark in it, uh, for $1 million for another somali led organization whose family has ties and convictions to isis and, uh, and fentanyl related addiction. And I think it's very difficult to just for all of us to determine.
▶ 2:07:03What's legitimate and what's not. But I would just ask if the committee will play the video that Mr. crane had referred to for me at this time. >> can you stop the okay? Go ahead. >> we get the sound turned up. You can see the subtitles there.
▶ 2:07:43If you'll notice the campaign contribution at the bottom for $4,700. And then the $250 million fraud scheme associated with said individuals. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, it's not me calling out one community or another, one individual representative or another. It's fraud. Um, representative robbins, hudson and rarick, thanks for your service.
▶ 2:08:10I know it's difficult, and you're operating in difficult circumstances where it doesn't sound like you got a lot of support. Um, and I imagine that as, uh, miss robbins, representative robbins, you're the chair of the oversight policy committee, is that right? >> yes, sir. >> I imagine at the state level, you don't quite have the resources you need to track down all this stuff.
▶ 2:08:33This federal jury found that feeding our future mastermind and codefendant and also, um, the contributor to one of your representatives from your state, one of our colleagues here, $4,700 for a $250 million pandemic fraud scheme. Like, you don't probably have the resources to find that kind of stuff. It's massive. Right.
▶ 2:08:58And I suspect as someone who, you know, you you serve at the pleasure of your constituents who who want to see you elected and contribute to you a $4,700 campaign contribution for a $250 million of, uh, I guess spending at the federal level is a pretty good investment for people. We're not here to pick on anybody.
▶ 2:09:24But I will tell you, I think the american people are particularly affronted when their goodwill is is returned by stealing their hard earned money. Um, I just want to if you can comment on on that particular case that's feeding our future and the fact that these these folks pled guilty to $250 million and then connections to the political operation in your state, which
▶ 2:09:55Is dismantling your state. >> thank you sir. Yes. So this is the big problem. There's a network of people who have been, uh, politically, uh, supporting the democrats, who have also been contributing to them and who have been involved in multiple schemes.
▶ 2:10:12So woman who was in this child care group, the minnesota minority child care association, akram muhammad, she was later indicted in the feeding our future scandal, as was her brother and her mother, and I believe, a sister. And so it's a network that functions in our state that we have to get a handle on.
▶ 2:10:32And then one of the people indicted in, um, that case for feeding our future for money laundering, $1.1 million, then they use that same company, shell company. They did the money laundering with to buy property for an assisted living facility after they were indicted.
▶ 2:10:52And then his wife has a company getting millions of dollars from the state to provide services to the assisted living facility bought by his shell company he's already been indicted for. They do not shut off the spigot. So that's the problem. >> this is completely outrageous. Obviously, I'm not an attorney or any one of you three attorneys, are you? So, you know, you said, uh, representative robbins, that you informed the governor of these things. That's what you said, right? That's your testimony here today?
▶ 2:11:23>> yes, sir. I did a hearing on it, and I brought charts and laid out the roadmap. >> so there are crimes of commission and crimes of omission. So if the governor didn't actively and be involved in this fraud, that would be a crime of commission. But if he knew about it and didn't do anything about it, would you consider that a crime of omission? >> yes, sir. >> and what should be done about crimes of omission regarding taxpayer funds? >> so they should be prosecuted.
▶ 2:11:54And when as as you said, we don't have a lot of resources on our committee as legislators, we don't have access to bank records, health records, the state payment system. So when we get credible allegations of fraud, we bring it to the U.S. attorney and the office of legislative auditor because they can get access to those records and then bring the prosecutions criminally. >> thank you. Chair. I yield, Mr. chairman. >> uh, before I go to Mr. randall, chair recognizes Mr. biggs for you. See. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:12:20Uh, number one, washington post calls for welfare reform after minnesota fraud scandal. Exclusive treasury and house panel launch probes into tim walz's handling of $1 billion of food aid fraud. Additionally, uh x, referring to the the earmark that Mr. perry just referred to. Additionally, the somali fraud scandal gave trump a kill switch. What happens if he doesn't use it?
▶ 2:12:48Resurfaced video shows how somali scammers use daycare centers to scam state. A scrutinizing snap will help ensure the neediest get food stamps. Master class ag hamilton schools wapo hack playing race card to defend somali fraud ring in minnesota tim walz was brought down by a scandal hiding in plain sight. Unearthed surveillance video shows parents allegedly helping with fraud. I yield back, Mr.
▶ 2:13:19Chairman. Gentleman yields back with, uh. I'm sorry. Without objection. So ordered gentleman yields back. Uh, miss randall, a couple of our witnesses have requested bathroom breaks. I, I told them the ranking member and I agreed they can go and and come back. We're going to keep the hearing going. If your questions were pertaining to one of them, we'll we'll skip to someone else, if that. Do you want to go ahead? All right. Chair recognizes you for five minutes. >> thank you, mister chair.
▶ 2:13:47You know, I have prepared some remarks that I definitely want to get to about, uh, the importance of child care funding for all of us and all of our districts. I think we all recognize that we are in a child care crisis. We have lost so many, um, parents, especially women from the workforce, because they just cannot find adequate child care.
▶ 2:14:09But I have to start by addressing some of what we have heard in this committee so far today. I didn't get my self together to ask any of my colleagues to yield to a question for a question. So I'll ask you. And if you don't know the answer, it's okay. I do. Um, what percent of sexual assaults in the united states are committed by white men? >> I do not know.
▶ 2:14:39>> 57%, um, of the january 6th insurrectionists who were pardoned, do you know how many have been charged and convicted and arrested of additional crimes, including child sexual assault, kidnaping, production of child pornography, rape, conspiracy to murder, an fbi agent, domestic violence by strangulation. >> I do not have that information. >> no.
▶ 2:15:0433 since their pardons, um, of the 21,504 murder offenders in the united states in 2023, do you know how many were white? >> no. >> uh, 8842, which is 41%, um, of the following.
▶ 2:15:25The domestic extremist tracker that gw um, compiles, um, since 2015, there have been 643 individuals charged, 447% found guilty. Do you know how many are men? >> you tell. >> me 95%. We can trot out all of the data that we want to create.
▶ 2:15:52The sense that there is a bad guy, there is a bad group of people. There are folks who are not among us. There are folks who are other. And I think we should spend a lot more time looking at ourselves, looking at american citizens, uh, looking at white men who are committing violence at disproportionate rates in our country, who are committing crimes at disproportionate rates in our country, including
▶ 2:16:22The president of the united states, who is sitting at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. As so many of my colleagues have pointed out. I also want to say, um, you know, I've heard a lot about, uh, the somali donors to political campaigns. We all acknowledge, right, that you cannot donate to a political campaign in the united states unless you are an american citizen. Right. I'm just going to, like, acknowledge that, um, you know who else is getting rich? Uh, as a campaign donor?
▶ 2:16:50Uh, the expense of the us taxpayers. And because of the decisions that this government has made. Yes. Elon musk, but also billionaire paul singer, a trump donor who is getting rich off the military actions that this president engaged in in venezuela. Now about childcare. $7 for every $1 spent on childcare and early learning are returned to our us economy.
▶ 2:17:21It's good for families, it's good for kids, it's good for our economic growth. But we are still facing a child care crisis in this country. Chair robbins, I understand that you have three kids and that they were enrolled in daycare at one point before you became a stay at home mom. What would your reaction be to an unknown, potentially armed, angry individual showing up at your home with a camera, demanding to enter while your children were at home?
▶ 2:17:52>> so we used a neighbor, uh, to do our childcare. >> what if they showed up at your neighbor's house? >> yes. I don't think she would. They would be coming in. >> but honestly, how would you feel about it if someone who was armed and angry showed up? Where? In the house, where your children were? >> I'm not sure I understand who was armed. What? What are you asking about? >> thank you. Um. I imagine you'd be scared. I think many families would be scared if that happens to you.
▶ 2:18:20I want to share a story of a provider from washington state who said, um, following the, uh, this these fraud claims and the demonization of somali americans and child care providers, three adults came into her home and banged on her door, startling the children in her care. The children were frightened and confused. She's been receiving repeated death threats by phone and voicemail. Individuals have returned multiple times, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day, parking outside the home and monitoring activity.
▶ 2:18:50They recorded families arriving and leaving. As a result, families felt unsafe and some withdrew their children from care. A nearby provider closed their program entirely due to fear. Another provider shared that she was approached by a man with a gun outside her home, who interrogated her about her child care program, and she is now too scared to step outside. Providers aren't answering the phone anymore because of all the threats, which means that parents aren't able to get in touch with staff regarding their children's care. >> mister chairman. Order!
▶ 2:19:20>> gentlelady's time has expired. You went 30s over. Thank you. Thank you. >> for your lenience. >> mister chair. Chair recognizes mister gosar from arizona. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thanks to the witnesses for traveling. Um, now, miss robbins, the minnesota legislature, led by your committee, sounded the alarm on the fraud for years, but have been ignored by governor walz. Did heath ellison the attorney general also be. Was he aware of this? >> yes, he was aware of the fraud. And he came before our committee.
▶ 2:19:48And I feel like he did not do his job prosecuting these cases. Most of the cases have been prosecuted federally by the U.S. attorney, both under president biden and feeding our future and currently under president trump. >> so he's in your state, is the top attorney for the public, right? >> yes. >> for the public. That's kind of fun. Very interesting. Well, maybe it has to do something with campaign contributions.
▶ 2:20:14Attorney general ellison and his son received from members of the leading feeding our future, an organization now under investigation, the same group whose members allegedly tried to bribe jurors. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Nothing to see here. Sounds very familiar. Sounds very biden crime syndicate desk.
▶ 2:20:29Now, when you're talking about the tools that you could use, would, uh, any ngo that takes federal funding be a value to you that they would have to disclose all their federal funding or all their funding mechanisms if they took one penny from the federal government? >> yes. One of the things we've seen in minnesota is that some of these nonprofits have had their federal 500 1c3 status revoked, but the state continues to fund it.
▶ 2:20:57>> it's interesting you say that because, you know, um, the irs actually does this study actually has those numbers. But when you when we order it, it's blanked out. It's redacted. All of it's redacted. I wonder if there's some interesting aspects to that. You know, follow the money trail. Now, uh, representative hudson, the head of feeding our futures, was sentenced in november for his role in the largest covid fraud scheme in us history. According to the doj.
▶ 2:21:23This is predictable result of the massive covid spending with little or no oversight. In fact, we spent between 4.3 and $7.5 trillion during covid. And we don't have a single receipt. Not one. Okay, now this is a predictable outcome from the massive spending, whether it's expanded covid tax credits under the so-called affordable care act or the programs like the massive or minnesota hhs initiative with no enrollment cap.
▶ 2:21:50Unfortunately, there are plenty of similar federal programs right here in washington, D.C. my question for you is, in your experience, what failures failures make government funding streams particularly susceptible to fraud? >> well, as I outlined in my opening statement and my written testimony, basically, we're spending far more money than we have the operational capacity to monitor, like they're just now deputy U.S. attorney. He was us attorney at the time. Joe thompson said. We can't prosecute our way out of this. That's another way of saying it.
▶ 2:22:20We have to have controls on the front end. >> well, and with the massive amounts like I just talked to you about in covid, you know, uh, it actually it it gives the environment for fraud. It just builds on it. Right? >> correct. >> well, um. Miss rarick, what concrete actions did waltz the waltz administration take to intimidate whistleblowers into silence?
▶ 2:22:49>> so I think the first thing he did was he put in place commissioners. Right now we have a deputy commissioner of department of human services that is known to whistleblowers as being like the queen of whistleblower, of retaliation. So when you put somebody in charge that is known to retaliate, that's a problem. I would also note on your previous question about the covid money.
▶ 2:23:11And I, we discovered in our committee that the auditor so there was a bid for auditing the covid money, and the auditor was known to be our minnesota state auditor. So that's another democrat within the whole fold of the democrats and malls as well. >> well, it surprise you that we spent $13 trillion from bill clinton to donald trump. Uh, in that span of time, $13 trillion with not a single receipt.
▶ 2:23:40>> uh, that is absolutely shocking. Uh, I used to do accounting, and that's deplorable. That's something that should be. You should be imprisoned for that. >> yeah, absolutely. So, um, you know, the united states has no obligation to tolerate guests who break our laws. And in this case, there seems like there's a whole bunch of them. And unfortunately, they were targeting one general area. And it's sad to me that we are always being screamed at about xenophobia, all this different type of phobias and racists, and yet the facts still stand.
▶ 2:24:12So, Mr. chairman, I find it very interesting that the today's hearing and I applaud you for doing it. Thank you, I yield back. >> thank you gentlemen. Now our chair now recognizes the lady from texas, miss jasmine crockett. >> Mr. chairman. >> I'm sorry, Mr. crockett. Uh, chair. Chair recognizes Mr. biggs. I apologize for that. >> there's some more. You see, senator john kennedy bring somali fraud to the senate floor. Viral videos. David says he filed a complaint against waltz over fraud allegations.
▶ 2:24:40Minnesota adds medicaid fraud verification amid alleged $9 billion loss. Minnesota's somali fraudsters paid for rich lifestyles with stolen money. What investigators still haven't asked about minnesota's fraud I hope to ask that trump deploys 2000 federal agents to minnesota. Venezuela has been dealt with. Somali scammers should be next beyond parody craigslist ad from a daycare center in minneapolis seeks to hire 20 child actors. Doctor oz orders full scale federal audit of minnesota medicaid.
▶ 2:25:06Did you miss the story about alleged medicaid fraud from a somali run health services provider in maine? A youtuber's follow up video on minnesota fraud is just as wild. How to close biden near loophole that let states pay child care providers, without counting attendance, yield back. >> without objection. So ordered chair now recognize miss jasmine crockett from texas. >> thank you so much, Mr. chair. And for every witness that is here, thank you so much for your time and your attention.
▶ 2:25:35Um, I just have one quick question. I have not been here the entire hearing, but I don't think this question has been posed for each of you. And we can start at the far end. Do you believe that all somalis are engaged in fraud? >> I do not, and I'd like. >> to just. Yes or no? Next? >> of course not. >> absolutely not. We have good somali people in our state. Okay? >> absolutely not. >> okay. Thank you so much.
▶ 2:26:00I just want to make sure I level set, because it seems like we want to continue to, especially as we just heard those particular articles entered into the record. We want to continue to just make it seem as if if you are somali, then somehow you are a fraudster. And this administration has decided that it wants to target on their backs.
▶ 2:26:21And so when my colleague miss randall decided that she wanted to talk about the threats that are being made towards various somali people, the reason she brought it up is because this particular side of the aisle has a tendency of if one person does something bad, especially if they are an immigrant, then we are going to cast aside that entire community. So I wanted to level set, and I appreciate your honesty because that's something that we very rarely get from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle.
▶ 2:26:49In fact, if we want to talk about fraud, I got a lot of fraud that we want to talk about because we're going to get into this. But I am very curious to hear, um, you know, let me let me ask you, uh, Mr. belew, are you aware of allegations that $50,000 in taxpayer dollars have been given to someone that is currently sitting in this administration by the name of tom homan? Are you aware? Okay, that's a yes, I am. Okay.
▶ 2:27:15And, um, last I checked and correct me if I'm wrong, if you have different information, but he was given that $50,000 in exchange for being able to provide contracts and kickbacks to people. As soon as trump was going to get into office, the doj was actually investigating this. But as soon as trump got into office, last I checked, he actually said, go ahead and throw away that case. >> so it was a department of justice investigation, and he accepted the money from an undercover fbi agent in cash.
▶ 2:27:46>> are you aware. >> as to whether or not we ever got that $50,000 back? I'm not. Oh, okay. Are you aware as to whether or not this committee has decided to investigate that? I'm not. Are you aware as to whether or not any committee in congress has decided to investigate the fact that we know that he took $50,000 from an undercover officer, and yet we still don't have that money, nor does he have any charges. I'm not. Okay. All right. So let's get into it. We're living through the most corrupt presidential administration in american history.
▶ 2:28:12A $300 million ballroom, a $230 million payout from the department of justice because the president got his feelings hurt, because he has been investigated for being a criminal. Hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars spent at trump owned properties around the country. Trump branded wine being sold at the coast guard exchanges, american taxpayer dollars being spent on dhs propaganda ads on truth social, awarding federal contracts to corporations in exchange for campaign contributions.
▶ 2:28:40Kash patel flew his girlfriend around the country on a multimillion dollar jet that taxpayers paid for. Kristi noem gave companies she's affiliated with hundreds of millions of tax dollars, then went out and spent another $200 million on two private jets for her travel.
▶ 2:28:57For 12 months, this administration has been taking billions of taxpayer dollars from american people and have been giving it away to their own companies in the form of tax cuts, government contracts or other government funded subsidies. So congress has a role in getting rid of fraud.
▶ 2:29:13I will admit that in any federally funded government program, however, I think the fraud that the american people are concerned about is that the republicans are taking away americans health care so that ultra billionaires can get more tax cuts. The real fraud is the dehumanization and demonization of the working class americans and immigrants to to distract folks away from corporate socialism. That's happening because of the republicans.
▶ 2:29:39So this is truly the definition of throwing away the baby with the bathwater. The republican philosophy is that if the cost of living for the average american increases, they're on their own. But if the cost of doing business increases for the wealthiest people on earth, well, then it's the government's job to bail them out. But I want to get to my my last question, because, Mr. belew, I gotta give you a chance. He's been issuing pardons for numerous people who have defrauded the american people.
▶ 2:30:08And republicans on this committee. Yet just as quiet as the room just got right. So, Mr. belew, talk to me about how the trump administration has welcomed fraud across government by purging doj attorneys and shuttering ethics offices across the federal government. >> well, you know, one of the things that's been a common theme in this discussion so far is potential government employee involvement in some of these schemes. That hasn't been proven yet, but it does seem to be alleged. The concern that I have is the office that would prosecute that in the department of justice.
▶ 2:30:37The public integrity section has been largely defunded and decimated. >> thank you so much. My time is expired, but I do have some uses. Mr. chairman. >> do you want to do them now? >> I do okay. >> um, the first one is from truth out. Trump grants clemency to executive who led $205 million medicare fraud scheme. >> without objection. So ordered. >> the next one is trump commutes sentence of doctor salomon melgen eye doctor found guilty of medicare fraud.
▶ 2:31:08>> without objection, so ordered. >> the next one, health care fraudster philip s firms, is latest trump clemency recipient to be arrested. He defrauded more than $1 billion from medicare. >> without objection, so ordered. >> trump pardons nursing home owner and supporter convicted of $7 million in tax evasion. >> without objection, so ordered trump won't all the all that stuff to put in the record so. >> I will I got you trump pardons cost victims and taxpayers $1.3 billion.
▶ 2:31:37House judiciary committee democrats review says. >> without objection so ordered chair now recognizes Mr. >> Mr. >> chairman. Chairman. Chairman. Vice chair. >> I have a request to be recognized to make a motion. >> I'm sorry. >> I have a request to be recognized to make a motion. >> yes. Go ahead.
▶ 2:31:56>> I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the department of homeland security and the us citizenship and immigration services for all records related to the immigration and naturalization of, or any immigration benefit received by ilhan omar of minnesota. Ahmed abdisalam ursi, also known as ahmed aden, ahmed saeed elmi, and any members of ilhan omar ilhan omar's family. >> okay, uh, another motion is made.
▶ 2:32:24The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with with today's hearing. Thank you. Mr. chair. Recognizes Mr. biggs from arizona. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman. A report that came out yesterday indicates that, um, on average, almost $1 million a day in cash is being sent from minnesota, uh, out of the country by a small group a of somali carriers.
▶ 2:32:52Are you any of you familiar with that on the panel? >> I'm not familiar with that particular story, but that, um, story has been in minnesota for a long time where millions of dollars has gone out of msp airport in cash to somalia. >> Mr. chairman, I ask that this be admitted as part. >> of that objection. So ordered. >> thank you. The biden administration required states to pay healthcare and day care providers before verifying any attendance at a daycare and before care was delivered.
▶ 2:33:23Would you say that policy facilitated, um, the funneling of funds or or defrauding of of government funds? We'll start with, uh, we'll go down the panel. We'll start with, uh, representative robbins, please. >> my understanding is that, um, there weren't ever enough internal controls, and but but under medicaid rules, the the walls administration already had the the opportunity to stop payment when there were credible allegations of fraud.
▶ 2:33:53They had the opportunity to do prepayment review. They could do all of those things, and they did not use those tools. >> not only does paying people before they deliver a service, introduce an obvious opportunity for people to abscond with public dollars, but we've heard these arguments in our communities back in minnesota from minnesota democrats, that it's just so important that we pay people up front because they can't afford to wait for the reimbursements. >> yeah.
▶ 2:34:22>> yeah, this is absolutely counter to good accounting and good accountability. So I would definitely say that you should be providing the service and getting paid after. >> Mr. belew. What do you think? >> I can't speak to that policy only because I I'm learning about it just now. But I will say, you know my. >> so then the question then is, do you think it's a good idea to pay for the service upfront before it's delivered? And without accounting? >> you know, I can only speak to the criminal side of things, not the administrative side.
▶ 2:34:50But my concern here again is to the extent that there would be violations because of that change, the office responsible for prosecuting. >> yeah. Okay. So that's so you didn't want to ask a question. You want to filibuster? Thanks, brother. Appreciate it. Now here what we're going to go is, uh, one of the things that that you mentioned, uh, representative robbins, is, is physical facilities and, and real estate.
▶ 2:35:10And as we've seen and looked at this, as I've looked at this, all of the public reporting that's out there, looked at a little bit of exhibit a that's like 2800 pages or 20, 300, whatever it is. Didn't get to look at all of it, but looked at some of it. I want to know, did anybody go in and find out who's owning all these properties? Because you have basically vacant properties ostensibly holding themselves out to be daycare centers.
▶ 2:35:39Who owns those properties? Anybody look into that? >> so some of our staff is looking at it currently, and I would encourage people to think about this as you look at your other states. So we have people who own the properties and then other people related to them or close to them that provide the services, and they both get renumeration. And then we have people who homestead assisted living facilities, small single family homes and say it's a business, but then they shouldn't be allowed to homestead.
▶ 2:36:08We have instances where there are multiple, uh, assisted living facilities that have been homesteaded. So the ownership of the properties and the ownership of the business is very important. This has gotten to be such a problem in minnesota that people invest in the daycare business as an investment. And so getting not only who, um, runs the facility, but who the ownership is, is critical, because that's where a lot of the money goes.
▶ 2:36:32>> yes, that's that's my point, is that you're setting up a series and facilitating straw man purchases of actual real property to actually launder or hide money coming from the state and defraud the state. And I and I would encourage both the feds and the state to to really take a close look at that. I did I did find it interesting. Uh, well, let me just ask the last question I've got, uh, time for here is.
▶ 2:36:58Well, I got asked to the $18 billion, I'm saying $18 billion. That's the total nut over the last five years. If I understand your testimony. Right, representative hudson, and half of it was defrauded. >> that is the estimate from the us attorney's office. >> okay.
▶ 2:37:20Has, as the waltz administration put into place any new procedures since this has come to a very viral head in the last, uh, you know, six weeks. >> they've appointed a couple of guys and shifted around a couple of chairs on the deck, but it's the equivalent of throwing a glass of water to a stove that's on fire. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I have a few more uses, if I may. >> go ahead. >> thank you. Uh, victims shocked after biden grants clemency to kids for cash.
▶ 2:37:50Judge and $54 million embezzler shocked biden. Clemency for convicted fraudster was met with outrage. It's a slap in the face comer on fox news. Biden crime family pardons serve as a confession of their corruption. Biden pardons more people in his criminal clan and commute sentence of leonard peltier.
▶ 2:38:12Um, op ed from the former uh uh, the, uh, legislative auditor, jim nobles. What's the right number? And then finally, Mr. chairman, 18 us code 666, theft or bribery concerning programs receiving federal funds seems apt in this case. Mr. chairman, I yield back. Thank you. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. pressley from massachusetts. >> thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 2:38:41Let me just begin by by making this plain credible fraud must be investigated and prevented. Uh, every dollar that is stolen from public programs is a dollar that is taken from a child who needs care, a senior who needs food or family that is already struggling to make ends meet. Miss robin's, I want to just begin with a basic question. Please answer yes, yes or no. When someone is convicted of defrauding the public, do you believe that they should be held accountable? >> yes.
▶ 2:39:12>> so if we're serious about fraud, then we also have to be serious about accountability. Miss robins, what does do you mind just expounding? Like what does accountability look like to you? >> we want to prosecute everyone who's committed a crime, and we want to fire officials in the agencies that are liable for allowing the failure of internal controls. >> okay, so so, miss robins, um, let me be more clear. What should happen to fraudsters who steal public dollars?
▶ 2:39:43>> they should go to jail. >> so in my opinion, you know, accountability means restitution. It means consequences, uh, like incarceration that help ensure that it doesn't happen again, you know, as a real deterrent. And accountability means that money taken from families and the public is returned to them. But that is not the standard that is being set by donald trump, who is wielding his clemency authority to allow fraudsters to escape accountability all together.
▶ 2:40:10Last month, my office published a clemency report titled trump's clemency gap how trump's pardons are ignoring the people who need them the most. I ask unanimous consent to enter this into the record. Thank you. Now, to the witnesses who serve in the minnesota state legislature on the fraud prevention committee. Let's walk through these pardons for fraudsters. And we all care about fraud. So, miss robbins, Mr. hudson and miss rarick.
▶ 2:40:34Donald trump pardoned george santos, who defrauded voters and owed them $370,000 in restitution to victims. Raise your hand if you oppose this. Pardon? Thank you, Mr. >> ma'am. I would have to look at the law and the facts of the case. >> we cannot listen. >> we cannot know the facts of all these individuals. >> don't don't deflect. This is a very public case. You know who george santos is. You know exactly what he did.
▶ 2:41:01We just agreed that, you know, fraud is unacceptable. Um, and so. And you just talked about accountability. You said if people commit fraud and exploit the public good, that they should be incarcerated. So this is not a complicated question. So I will give you all one more opportunity, miss robbins, Mr. hudson and miss rarick, raise your hand if you oppose the pardon of george santos. >> not playing this game. >> it's not a game. It's real life. It's not a game at all.
▶ 2:41:32Okay? But I will take your your refusal to go on record not only as cowardice, but that you do agree with that pardon of that fraudster. Moving on. Donald trump also gave. This has never been done before. Presidential pardons to corporations that committed fraud. One example is the crypto company bitmex that violated us law and was fined $100 million. Now, raise your hand if you oppose trump's pardon of this crypto company. >> not participating. >> thank you, Mr. ballou.
▶ 2:42:02Okay, again, I'll take your refusal to not to raise your hand in opposition. That means that you support this pardon of this corporation, that frauded folks to the tune of $100 million. Refusal to. >> participate is not. >> reclaiming my time, reclaiming my time to reclaim my time is not. >> an expression one way or the other. >> rules of the committee. This is I. >> know that I am. >> here, speak as. >> a member of the. >> public, reclaiming my time. You are not mister chair, Mr.
▶ 2:42:32Chair. >> that's what I know. >> you are not in order with the rules of the committee. This is my time. This is my time. >> it's our dollars. >> and you answer. But you're too much of a coward to answer, so we're going to move on now. Yesterday was the five year anniversary, and I want to note of the january 6th insurrection. And on donald trump's first day in office, he pardoned 1500 insurrectionists, including brian christopher mock, who's from minnesota. Are you all going to say you don't know who that is? He's from minnesota now.
▶ 2:43:00He kicked, shoved and threw a flagpole at police officers, you know, law enforcement that you claim to support. And he did all of that in the name of fraud. He was an election denier. So an election fraud lie. Now, he claims he did these things in the name of patriotism, but really, he's just a criminal. So raise your hand if you oppose trump's pardon of this minnesota individual. >> ma'am, this grandstanding nonsense. >> is not grandstanding. This is what minnesotans. >> hate about. >> D.C. is accountability.
▶ 2:43:31>> and you are hypocrites. So again, I will take your refusal. >> demonstrating my opening statement. Order, decorum. She's off the rails. >> my time. I'm not off the rails. Please. >> you are totally off. >> the rails, nancy. Your tropes give me my time back. >> order. Mr. chairman. >> if republicans. >> were serious. With me, you. Have no time left. >> over time. >> time out of. >> time. >> time, time. We're done here.
▶ 2:44:03>> touch and out of time. >> at least. 10s. Time's expired. Out of order and out of time. >> personally, you've. Already secured your msnbc spot tonight. I'm not. Your time is required. >> for accountability. Miss may from south carolina, your base and this administration. >> mister chair, recognizes. >> Mr. chairman, I agree. >> she's going to be a great host on msnbc. This is. >> my time to jump in my time. Were you, miss precious? >> reclaim my time. This is my time. >> I wouldn't want to interrupt, miss bass, it's her time. Chair recognizes mister. O.
▶ 2:44:36>> mister chair, she's out of. She could not. >> get all of her time. >> mister chairman. >> she wants to insult. >> us for ten more seconds. >> time is expired, chairman. In order. Her time has expired. Chair recognizes must. >> be great on tv. You're really good. No, baby. You're not. No, baby, you're not. You are not an order. You're out of order. Goodbye. You're done. Mister chairman is. >> my guys. Miss mason. >> we're good here, mister chairman. Thank you.
▶ 2:45:01As I listen to the witnesses answer questions today, I'm struck by the truly breathtaking amount of fraud. The scope and scale perpetrated against the american people by somalians in minnesota. Screeching democrats like you just heard at our witnesses. Democrats on this committee don't want to talk about minnesota fraud, because minnesota fraud is democrat fraud. You're going to make a great host on msnbc. You're going to be great.
▶ 2:45:29And this is a cover up. I mean, the very definition of cover up. And so while we're still trying to understand the scale of the fraud, it appears that the amount of fraud we are talking about could exceed the size of gdp in somalia, the size of its economy is what we're talking about. So let that sink in. The amount of fraud we're talking about. My first question is this, Mr.
▶ 2:45:54Baillieu this this afternoon, um, should somalians in minnesota be required to speak english, their citizens. One yes or no? Should they be required to speak english if they're american citizens? >> I think that question is really inappropriate. >> should they? It's not inappropriate. This is united states of america. Do you speak english? Should americans speak english? Citizens speak english, yes or no? >> uh, point of inquiry. Uh, is english the official language of the united states? I'm just. It's a question. >> Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:46:23I'm being interrupted. >> not a parliamentary inquiry. >> I would like to reclaim my time, Mr. chairman. >> mister chairman, I'd like to reclaim. >> my time. She's asking the witness a popular thing. >> that's not a valid inquiry. >> it's. >> a lot of. >> women have. >> a right to. >> speak in this committee. Conservative women have the right to speak here and not be. >> interrupted. >> by my colleagues. >> he's already got that slot. I would like to recognize miss may. >> I lost like 10s there. >> okay, we'll give you 10s.
▶ 2:46:53>> okay. My next question is, should somalians who committed fraud be denaturalized and deported Mr. baillieu? >> again. >> I'm. >> not sure that's an appropriate question because the majority of somalia. >> if you commit fraud in this country and you are here from somalia, you don't believe they should be denaturalized and deported, how much fraud would it take for you to want to denaturalize and deport someone who committed fraud in this country? How much? >> again. >> a billion, 9 billion? 19 billion. What would it take for you?
▶ 2:47:23>> most somali minnesotans are citizens, right? >> and the ones that committed fraud. The question was, if you understand english should be those who committed fraud. Should they be denaturalized and deported? The somalians who are here, the ones that can't speak english? >> yeah. So under us law. Okay. >> my next question for you is the question. No, you can't because you're not answering the question. My next question is this is yes or no.
▶ 2:47:46If you marry your brother and you commit immigration fraud, should you be denaturalized and deported? If you commit immigration fraud? Yes or no? >> again, that question seems really inappropriate. And if I can get. >> you can't answer my question, so that's probably more inappropriate. Can you name one significant contribution to minnesota from a somali immigrant who can't speak english? >> absolutely, yes. But again, this is. >> you didn't name one. All right.
▶ 2:48:13So my next questions are going to be for the honorable miss robbins. Good afternoon. Thank you all for being here today. I heard some discussion earlier about al shabab and the discovery that you believe some of this money that was defrauded, the us government went to al shabab, is that correct? Did I hear that right? >> yes. It's been. >> how much money are we talking about? >> you know, we don't have an amount. So there's been specific cases where it's been charged where we have an amount.
▶ 2:48:41But then of the millions that go to somali over the years in remittances, a portion of that we understand is taken as sort of a tax or a or, you know, corruption by al shabab when it enters the country. >> can you explain to us who al shabab is? >> it's a terrorist organization in somalia. >> and they're affiliated with al qaeda. Is that right? >> my understanding is they are.
▶ 2:49:04>> I am on the dni website where it tells me that since 2014, al-shabab has killed more us citizens than any other al qaeda affiliate. And as of 2025, al-shabab. This group is al qaeda's wealthiest component. Can you believe that? >> yes. >> and that american tax dollars through minnesota, through governor tim walz, who shamefully had to resign from his reelection the other day?
▶ 2:49:35Thank you to the young youtuber nick shirley? Um, this is the kind of thing that was happening in minnesota. So I praise the republicans who are here today from the minnesota state legislature exposing this fraud. And then, um, miss robbins, when do you think tim walz became aware of the fraud? >> I think he's been aware of it since the beginning. This was a huge issue in our state. In the year he ran for governor, and the ola reports came out first, identifying the child care fraud.
▶ 2:50:02In march and april of 2019, when he was in the first months of his term. >> was keith ellison in on it? Too knowledgeable? The catholic turned muslim guy in minnesota? >> yes, they were all newly in office and this was very public knowledge in minnesota. >> what role do you think he, tim walz and keith ellison played there, his administration in delaying investigations into the fraud. >> so I've outlined several things where they stopped our ability to strengthen internal controls.
▶ 2:50:32And they also shut down the criminal investigations by the oig and dhs. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. I do have two articles, Mr. chairman, that I would like to ask unanimous, uh, this one on foxnews.com. Minnesota fraud probe will expand to other states and then, uh, on house.gov legislators blast, uh, dhs for revelations that it had contracts with feeding our future fraudsters. >> without objection. So ordered chair, did somebody else seek recognition? Chair recognizes miss ansari.
▶ 2:51:03>> Mr. chair, I'd like to start with a unique request. An article from the washington post titled trump amplifies conspiracy theories on killing of minnesota lawmaker. As we know, the president shared a video. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you. Um, so I want to start with this question for the lawmakers here from minnesota. As you know, donald trump has been posting these conspiracy theories about the linking governor walz to the killing of your former speaker and insinuating that governor walz had something to do with it.
▶ 2:51:32Can you please raise your hand if you think this is an appropriate action by the president of the united states? Raise your hand, please. >> I'm not doing a raise your hand. I'm happy to comment. >> on it. Sure. Is it appropriate for the president to do that? >> so the person who murdered our colleague, speaker melissa hortman, and her husband, mark. >> and so. >> the question in his. Appropriate for the president of the united states evidence saying. >> violence against. >> the governor was ordering him to do it.
▶ 2:51:58I know the facts will come out in the case, and we need to be respectful of the hortman family, and we need to let this play out in the courts. >> that is unacceptable. It is inappropriate to the highest degree for the president of the united states to be sharing conspiracy theories that are obviously going to lead to violence directed at governor tim walz. Now, moving on to the issue here today, we all care deeply about combating waste, fraud, preventing corruption and holding bad actors accountable.
▶ 2:52:26Unfortunately, this country has seen an unprecedented avalanche of such abuse in the past year, all stemming from the trump administration, the most corrupt and the most wasteful administration in american history.
▶ 2:52:40It is truly amazing that the majority moved so quickly to hold basically an emergency hearing on the situation in minnesota without without ever one time, having held a hearing on the national crisis that is the trump criminal enterprise being run out of the white house. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe the republican majority would be interested in holding a hearing on the $50,000 cash bribe that borders our tom homan received from fbi undercover agents in a bag?
▶ 2:53:10Or how about a hearing on the $400 million bribe that donald trump presented by multi-billion dollar companies in the form of the white house ballroom, that donald trump seems most obsessed with? Do republicans have any interest in holding a hearing on that corruption scandal, or the fraudsters and the criminals that donald trump has pardoned? He freed george santos, convicted of theft of public funds.
▶ 2:53:37He pardoned paul walzak, convicted of millions of dollars in tax fraud after walzak mother raised money for trump's campaign, he released the former president of honduras sentenced to 45 years for flooding the united states with oceans of cocaine. And these are just a few examples. I haven't even brought up doge and elon musk corruptions. Trump's firing of inspectors general who are in place to root out fraud, and career U.S.
▶ 2:54:07Attorneys who are doing the bidding of donald trump in prosecuting his personal and political enemies. Is there any interest in holding an oversight hearing on any of those issues? Now, I want to talk about one specifically in appalling instance of blatant corruption in the trump white house, reported by the new york times. >> that the republican. >> majority has shown literally zero interest in investigating.
▶ 2:54:31This is regarding world liberty financial, the cryptocurrency company founded in 2024 by eric trump, donald trump jr, alex witkoff and zac witkoff, among others. If those names sound familiar, it is because the company is a joint project by the trump and witkoff families.
▶ 2:54:51Steve witkoff, being trump's special envoy in the middle east, you may think that the president's financial interest in a secretive cryptocurrency exchange may be bad enough, but it gets so much worse than that. Emirati investment firm mgm invested $2 billion in the trump witkoff crypto business, personally enriching the sitting president of the united states, his family and witkoff as a white house employee.
▶ 2:55:18This is at the same time that witkoff is an envoy to the middle east. He's the one negotiating with the emiratis as an official representative of the united states government. While witkoff and his sons were negotiating this private crypto deal, steve witkoff was also in charge of negotiating with the very same officials as a us official to give the emirati something they desperately wanted from us highly advanced and specialized computer chips
▶ 2:55:49To make the corruption even more explicit. Just after the crypto deal went through, donald trump gave his go ahead for the transfer of hundreds of thousands of advanced chips to the emiratis. Despite the extremely, extremely concerning national security implications, it's perhaps one of the largest and most obvious corruption schemes in us history, implicating a foreign government, paying off the president of the united states and the white house to the tune of literally billions of dollars in exchange for
▶ 2:56:20Sensitive us technologies. So please let the republicans spare us with their feigned concerns about waste, fraud, and corruption. I yield back. >> gentlelady yields back. Chairman. Mr. fallon from texas. >> chairman. Thank you. We're here today in this hearing because there is this damning and over. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you. We're here today to in this hearing because there exist damning and overwhelming evidence of massive industrial scale fraud occurring in minnesota right now. And it's been going on for years.
▶ 2:56:49This is a huge story. And while many want to ignore it, deflect from it, or be masters of obfuscation, which we have seen here today, this should be a page one front and center, above the fold headline for media outlets across the country. But it's not. And I think it's very interesting. Abc, nbc, cbs you can find 74 stories today run before you even get a hint of this scandal. This should be a headline.
▶ 2:57:15And unfortunately, it's a backstage back page. Fine print still as bad as the network's coverage, albeit, you know, it's ludicrously, ludicrously abysmal. It's better than cnn. This very morning, cnn ran 51 stories on its website, including such riveting breaking news articles such as dogs that are trained to sniff mold a flock of gay sheep.
▶ 2:57:41K-pop's newest release, entitled demon hunters inside glimpse of p diddy combs prison cell and chinese robots playing soccer, but nary a mention of the tens of billions of dollars of american taxpayer money that's been stolen from honest folks in america by scumbag thieves. This is the oversight committee. We should have one overriding emotion.
▶ 2:58:05Whether it's republican or democrat, we should all be outraged that crooks and thieves and dirtbags are robbing the american people. So I was very curious as to see how the democrats would play today. Would they expose this fraud and be willing to work with us, or would they go to their playbook of donald trump bad? You know, when we were in dodge, it was elon musk and billionaires bad. Uh, and they didn't, uh, they haven't really disappointed. January 6th as well has been mentioned.
▶ 2:58:34Has nothing to do with what we're talking about today. The ranking members opening comments even bizarrely talked about presidential pardons and he railed against potus. It's nothing to do with the matter at hand. But for the record, joe biden issued 250% more pardons and commutations than donald trump. In fact, 2545 more. Again, back to the matter. This has been this.
▶ 2:58:55This money has been stolen systemically by a gang of thieves, while the very people charged with the oversight, namely the waltz administration, have been complicit, they've looked the other way. And the democrats didn't disappoint either, with ists, isms and phobias, quotes like bigotry and hatred and, uh, we're hypocritical. Witch hunt. And then they were taking a hero, nick shurley, trying to make him a villain. Mr. chairman, I'd like you to enter into the record, uh, an article.
▶ 2:59:23It's not racist to notice somali fraud. >> without objection. So ordered. >> 98 defendants that have been charged thus far in this case. And I think it will end up being hundreds happened to be 85 of them happen to be somalian descent. It's just a fact. Despite how unfortunate, uh, and inconvenient these truths may be to leftists, the assistant us attorney, joe thompson, thinks that this fraud can equivalent to maybe $9 billion. The entire federal budget of the country, somalia, is 1.2 billion.
▶ 2:59:50Medicaid fraud does exist in all 50 states, but uncovering it aggressively clearly is not a blue state priority if you talk to any expert. I was in the state legislature for eight years. They will tell you objectively that no matter where it is, about 10 to 20% of all medicaid spending is fraudulent. And the state of new york, they spent $96 billion. So did they uncover recover in fraud? 9.6 billion 960 million? No, it was a pittance.
▶ 3:00:20It was 6/100 of 1% was recovered. And the state of minnesota, 18 billion. It was 8/100 of 1% recovered. Representative robbins and the other reps. Thank you for coming. Thank you for your courage. You know, you're going to be, you know, smeared. And I'm not going to ask you. >> raise your hand. >> we're going to have a conversation. Okay.
▶ 3:00:41When, uh, miss robbins, representative robbins, when you first uncovered this tectonic fraud, what was the reaction and actions taken by the walz administration, your democratic colleagues? Was it working hand in hand to create synergy and offer full support and help to unmask this fraud? Or did you face significant headwinds in fierce pushback to the point of opposition? >> throughout our hearings, they would either deny or deflect or say, oh, they've handled it, or they're new on the job and they don't know.
▶ 3:01:08Uh, so those were the answers and the tenor of our hearing. I provided documents to them outlining, as I said, in february, of 72 child care centers. I thought they should look at. They haven't done it. I've sent six foia requests or data requests that have not been responded to. So they have not been good partners in rooting this out. >> so block votes in minnesota in 2016, it was so close that I think, uh, hillary clinton won the state by about 44,000 votes.
▶ 3:01:36But if you have block 50,000 you can rely on in minneapolis, that's rather helpful to win an election. Minnesota. But you know what, Mr. chairman? Our democratic colleagues, whether it be in minnesota or here on this oversight committee, they'll eventually learn. I'll yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. simon. Mr. bell from missouri. >> thank you, Mr. chair. >> ranking member and our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 3:02:03I believe in protecting our social services and recognize the need for comprehensive legislation that ensures transparency in the collection and use of federal funds to support these critical programs that serve our communities in need. The resources provided through social services ensure the welfare of the everyday person and family, and these resources and individuals deserve to be protected.
▶ 3:02:32These protections should come at all times, not just when politically beneficial. What we're witnessing from president trump in this administration is an attempt to use social services and the welfare of the american people as pawns to promote their political agenda, instead of caring for the challenges of the average person, this administration has deprived them of the very
▶ 3:03:03Things the the that the president promised, which is affordable health care, housing and relief from the rising cost, from the rising cost of living through rolling back essential health care affordability, cutting funding for assistance programs, implementing harmful tariffs, and advancing legislation such as the one big ugly bill.
▶ 3:03:27The administration's actions have ultimately caused more harm than good for the american people. Reports show that since taking office, president trump has raised the average cost of living. Health insurance costs have risen by hundreds of dollars for the average person, with insurance plans increasing by more than 20%.
▶ 3:03:51Housing costs remain at an all time high, and everyday grocery items show a steady increase, with prices rising by 15 to 20%. We cannot pick and choose when to care for the american people. The actions of this administration show a pattern.
▶ 3:04:14They first target our most vulnerable communities and then gut the very resources to help them. Today, it is our somali somali communities and our child care assistance. Tomorrow, it could be your communities and the resources you and your family rely on for well-being. At its core, this is about the well-being of the american people.
▶ 3:04:42If we truly cared about those we have sworn to represent, we would work. We would be working to dismantle all the challenges they face, not just the ones that serve political interests. Mr. ballou, president trump has recently made comments on efforts to freeze child care funding in california, colorado, illinois and new york. With these actions benefit our harm.
▶ 3:05:12Children and families. >> oh, of course they're going to harm it. >> president trump has fired thousands of employees across critical departments and has issued executive order 14356, restricting agencies from filling vacant positions or creating new ones unless approved under the order or required by law. Can you speak to how these actions could harm the government's ability to root out waste, fraud and abuse? >> absolutely.
▶ 3:05:40So, you know, it's going to make it harder both to administer these services and then to identify fraud in the first place. One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is to go after fraud. One of the easiest ways to do it is to prosecute tax crimes. You know, the challenge that we've got right now is the administration has announced a plan to disband the tax division of the department of justice entirely, and that's going to make it much harder to prosecute these sorts of crimes.
▶ 3:06:05>> and can you speak from your work as a federal prosecutor on how president trump's actions have contradicted his promises to the american people? Well. >> to the extent that this administration says that it cares about waste, fraud and abuse, you know, it seems like that is a selective care. You can look at cases like paul walzak, who, you know, was convicted of fraud and withheld ten millions of $10 million to his own employees in nursing homes.
▶ 3:06:34His mother attended a $1 million plate fundraiser with the president, and Mr. walzak was quickly pardoned. You know, this has happened literally dozens of times where favored defendants either had their prosecutions dropped or were pardoned entirely. >> okay. >> thank you. I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. grothman from wisconsin. >> sure. I'm sorry. We had another briefing in the building, so I don't want to go over past things.
▶ 3:07:00But, uh, during your initial testimony, miss rarick, you talked about people being threatened. Who are whistleblowers. Do you know who those people were? Were they like, uh, people who made money off of this? Political operatives, you know, could you could you elaborate on that a little? >> yes. Thank you. Uh, so the people that were doing the threatening were the supervisors and directors within the state agencies.
▶ 3:07:30>> so state employees were threatening physically threatening whistleblowers. >> they were saying things like, uh, what happens if you lose your home, right? Because if you lose your job, you lose your home. They had pictures in their personnel files of their own homes and their cars. They asked for their children went to school and, um, where their bus stop was. So there was, uh, direct threats and indirect threats. >> okay.
▶ 3:07:59Um, well, were any of these people brought to justice or. This is just the way they deal things, deal with things in minnesota. >> you know, it's an interesting thing within the walls administration, those people were promoted. >> he just defines evil, doesn't he? Almost. Vice president, united states um, there's a good book out there called the tragedy of american compassion.
▶ 3:08:26Um, and in it, uh, they went over the history of, of welfare and whether it should be done by the state or done privately. And they pointed out the danger that certain nefarious politicians would always want more welfare because they were buying votes.
▶ 3:08:45Uh, do you either either one of you, on the political realm of things, feel that perhaps a motive for all the crookedness is, given the size of government today, the important wins, elections? Uh, were they motivated a little bit by getting votes of groups of people? Is this a danger to our. We're not a democracy, of course, but it's a danger to our form of government.
▶ 3:09:12>> so I'll answer really quickly and then I'll pass it over to represent hudson just really quickly. The the caveat to this, which is so bizarre in minnesota, is the fact that state employees, by and large, are democrats, and they vote democrat.
▶ 3:09:24And the walz administration, including flanagan and his former chief of staff, schmitter, were so brutal that these former democrat, uh, employees want nothing to do with the democrat party anymore in minnesota because they have been treated so horrifically.
▶ 3:09:45>> what's so sinister about this is that you're right, that it absolutely is for electoral benefit and political benefit, but it's sold to one half of the population to and to the independents and to the conservatives. As we're giving people a hand up, we're going to help people who are in need. We're going to give them a temporary way back into working life. But they've set up an industry that's perpetual, where people just stay where they're at. Right.
▶ 3:10:10>> uh, so there's really an electoral incentive to make sure people don't get out out of poverty. Uh, I'll give you another question. I used to be in the state legislature myself in wisconsin, and I know that when we put together your budget, you have fed funds, unlike money that, you know, wisconsin was getting in through our own income or sales tax, insofar as the legislature is paying playing with fed funds, you're not exactly as, um, maybe careful with every every dollar that's flowing
▶ 3:10:42Through. And I'm trying to think what we can do to prevent this, because you're always going to have given political parties who think they can benefit from government largesse. And I think government, by its nature, sometimes a little sloppy.
▶ 3:10:54Do you think the, uh, the minnesota government would be a little bit more careful here if on the various programs and varies from program to program, but if the state had to pick up 10 or 15 or 20 or 30% of the program so that they had skin in the game. >> thank you sir. Yes, in a lot of these programs, the state does have skin in the game. So many of them.
▶ 3:11:23Minnesota roughly has a 50 over 50 medicaid match. So many of them it's federal tax dollars, but it's also state tax dollars. So we are paying for it twice for our state tax dollars. And then when we pay our federal. >> I know, I think I think wisconsin when I was there was about a 6040 match with the feds picking up 60 and that came into play. But I gather there's some programs on here that maybe the state matches zero. Is that accurate?
▶ 3:11:52>> I would have to look at each program. I don't know for sure. >> okay. I'll ask you just as as state legislators and, you know, different state legislators look at this question differently. Do you think as a country on some of these programs, we should be asking some of the programs that are 100% funded now? Uh, we'd be better off if they were maybe 70% fed funded or 75% fed funded. So the states that have a little bit more of a.
▶ 3:12:20Um, skin in the game, I'll put it that way. And, uh, a concern I would have insofar as their programs with the state is picking up nothing, really. The incentive is to have more graft because you just bring in fed funds for the state. >> yes, sir. So we need to make sure the states have skin in the game so that they administer the programs properly, because otherwise they're incented just to draw down more federal money, more federal money to take the burden off state taxpayers.
▶ 3:12:50But it's we're all taxpayers, so somebody's paying. There's no such thing as a free lunch. >> right. And not just no such thing as a free lunch. It encourages state legislators to look the other way because you're just bringing that money into the state. I kind of felt that way about medicaid, but thanks. >> so mike flood. >> yeah, I'm sorry, glenn. Gentlemen, time has expired on that. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
▶ 3:13:17Chair recognizes, uh, who's next? Uh, miss simon. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a january 6th, 2026, article from the new york times health department to freeze $10 billion in funding to five democratic states. >> without objection. >> so ordered. >> thank you. Sir. Uh, I appreciate us having this conversation, and I do apologize to our witnesses.
▶ 3:13:46Uh, being in the last briefing took us out of this space. But you coming here to provide us some opportunity to discuss this is important because I think it is true. We have to recognize that fraud is fraud, and theft is theft.
▶ 3:14:02And anybody and I say anyone who takes away food out of the mouths of children, who denies child care to women, particularly young women who are going to school and working and doing everything right, who need a little hand up. I don't know who in here has had to walk their baby to child care and go to school full time and work full time. As a young mom, I know I did and I know that I received.
▶ 3:14:29But 27 years ago child care stipend so we can be mad at the criminals in every state, including your state, who took resources from children. But I also want to go back to the unanimous consent that I just talked about.
▶ 3:14:45I think we don't have to go too far back, maybe two days, to recognize that the president of the united states and the administration is halting billions of dollars now, billions of dollars to child care providers and centers around this country. In fact, I have a story that we just received in my office. Uh, we heard today that there needs to be accountability.
▶ 3:15:14But what about accountability to a young woman that we talked to today in our office who was told by her child care center and she is going to school full time at the local community college, that the president of the united states will be halting all funding within six weeks. She may not have an opportunity to continue her studies because guess what?
▶ 3:15:37There's a party in power that wants to punish the poor, not just in democratic states, but all over the country. The reducing of snap benefits, the shocking taking away of resources from sick children, the halting, the halting. And I'll say it again, the stopping of clinical trials for sick babies.
▶ 3:16:01What we will do as democrats is acknowledge that fraud is fraud. What we will not do is allow a conversation to go on to problematize immigrants in this country writ large. Can you imagine a society where we took the wrong of a small few and relegated that wrong to a whole community?
▶ 3:16:28Well, that's what we're doing here today, not just in minnesota, but now accusing thousands and thousands of child care providers all over the country before they get their day in court, proposing that they, in fact, shouldn't be taking care of kids across the country. I think it's it's shocking, this story that I want to end my quick testimony with nancy harvey.
▶ 3:16:54She's a child care provider in oakland, california, where I represent a beautiful constituency. She's in my congressional district. Nancy has been a long term child care provider, an advocate for early care and education for our babies, no matter who their parents vote for services that we know that are critical for every child, every child. Collective punishment is what the folks across the aisle want to do. We know it's wrong, it's reckless.
▶ 3:17:22And the trump administration, we believe, must immediately reverse course so that families have access to vital federal funds that they are entitled to, because you have a party that says they want everyone to work in this country. You want everyone to do their fair share.
▶ 3:17:41And yet, because we are so angry at a small few folks who in fact broke the law, that we want to create a collective punishment for all poor people, working families who are trying to do their best. I don't have any questions because they have been answered. This is a politics of cruelty. This is a politic of anti-family. This is a politic of anti-poverty.
▶ 3:18:10And for someone who grew up in poverty, I know how it feels when you wait and wait and wait to just get a chance to do better. And folks who've never met you, talk to you, believe in you, or love you are telling you you are not worth it. That is what this administration is doing to millions of children because of this halting of funding. And I yield back. >> gentlelady yields back. Mr. higgins from louisiana. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 3:18:40Miss robbins and Mr. hudson, miss rarick, your all members of the minnesota state legislature, is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> and, miss robbins, you're the chair of the fraud prevention, uh, oversight committee, is that correct? >> yes. >> and, Mr. hudson, miss rarick, your your members of that committee as well. Correct? >> yes, sir. >> all right.
▶ 3:19:03So you you you three collectively, uh, america should clearly understand you have an excellent perspective. What's going on inside minnesota in specifically regards to the fraud that we are investigating and discussing today. Is that correct? Yes, yes. Okay.
▶ 3:19:23So we have a particular community, somali community in minnesota that has stunning percentages or participating in government programs where they're drawing a lot of money, big money. This has been discussed and revealed and reported and is factual.
▶ 3:19:48You have a tremendous amount of, uh, criminal fraud taking place that one of my colleagues, the gentleman from the other side of the aisle, mentioned transparency. I would would argue that from a regular americans perspective, it's quite transparent that something criminal is going on when you have billions of dollars disappearing into, uh, child care centers with no children in them. And, and you have a tremendous transfer of wealth into a relatively small.
▶ 3:20:21And immigrant community. You have 9 billion. That's $9,000 million missing in the last few years. It's alleged to be fraudulently stolen if descending money. The somali community in minnesota sending money, big money overseas, they're contributing money, big money to democrat candidates and elected officials.
▶ 3:20:50The democratic political machine in minnesota has benefited from this criminal network of somali immigrants who have who have systematically stolen billions of dollars of federal charitable money. Essentially, the good lady, my colleague, he, you know, clarified this is money designed for for poor folk that need a hand up.
▶ 3:21:16And we we generally want that to happen in america in an effective manner. So this is the scenario that we are looking into today. Have have, have I summed it up fairly well, miss robbins? >> yes, sir. And I would just like to add. >> before you add, Mr. hudson, is this an effective summary, sir? >> yes, sir. >> it is. Thank you, miss rarick. >> yes. >> thank you.
▶ 3:21:45So, from the perspective of members of the fraud investigative committee of the minnesota state legislature, we have a large criminal network with with high percentages of participation in that criminal network from the somali community in minnesota. That community has tremendous influence within the political arena, specifically within the democrat political arena in minnesota.
▶ 3:22:15The democrat political machine has been covering for this this criminal network. And here we go to governor waltz's involvement here, which is shocking to me, quite frankly, because I've been friendly with governor walz for many years.
▶ 3:22:32I served with them here, but but can you discuss for me the governor's administration's involvement in intimidation and oppression and retaliation against whistleblowers? Miss robbins, have you had conversations with whistleblowers who have been treated like that by the waltz administration? >> yes, I have.
▶ 3:23:01>> and what can you tell us about that without naming the person or revealing stuff that's secret? Um, tell us how that retaliation would happen. >> so it happens in a variety of ways. They are demoted or reassigned, or they are told that they could lose their job and then their house, or their pension or their retirement benefits, or not qualify for unemployment. So it's. >> that's very serious.
▶ 3:23:27Uh, that's that's very serious allegation. I would say that's that's criminal retaliation. Mr. hudson and miss rarick, have you seen similar. >> I would defer to representative rarick. >> yes. So, representative robbins, and once in a while, representative hudson have had multiple conversations with whistleblowers. And that is exactly what they said to us, especially in a face to face meeting in saint paul. That is unbelievable. >> Mr.
▶ 3:23:56Chairman, my time has expired. But this, uh, this leans into the criminal spectrum, sir. I yield. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. walkinshaw from virginia. >> I think I was. >> here first. They told me. Walkinshaw. >> I'm happy to defer. >> yeah. >> thank you. >> and Mr. min. >> Mr. >> uh, I'm just doing what the democrats have says walking charles next. >> alright. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Let me just start with something simple.
▶ 3:24:25I think we're all agreed upon today. Fraud is real, fraud is wrong and fraud should be prosecuted. Period. And those who stole taxpayer dollars in minnesota or anywhere else should face the full force of the law. But what we're seeing today, and the premise of this hearing is selective outrage about fraud.
▶ 3:24:48Because if my republican colleagues actually cared about stopping fraud, they would not be defending the one president in modern history who is systematically tearing down the institutions designed to prevent it. The one president in history who has pardoned fraudster after fraudster after fraudster. But donald trump didn't just pardon those convicted of fraud.
▶ 3:25:15He's gone after the people whose job it is to find fraud. He fired the independent inspector general at the state department. He fired the independent inspector general of the intelligence community.
▶ 3:25:30He removed the acting inspector general at health and human services in the middle of a pandemic, as massive emergency funds were going out the door, he pushed out the defense department ig and why has trump gone after these independent inspectors general? Simple. In each case, they were investigating his or his administration's misconduct and fraud.
▶ 3:25:58Donald trump's approach to fraud is to fire the referees and then say that the game is clean because no one blows the whistle, and he hasn't stopped with igs, he's repeatedly attacked prosecutors, law enforcement and career public servants who investigated misconduct that was politically inconvenient for him.
▶ 3:26:21He's turned oversight and fraud prevention into a donald trump loyalty test that is not draining the swamp. So forgive me if I find it difficult to take seriously lectures about fraud from people who have cheered. While the most corrupt president in modern history has dismantled protection after protection against fraud.
▶ 3:26:47You don't get to scream fraud on tuesday after you fired the fraud investigators on monday. We can protect taxpayers, we can root out corruption and fraud, but we can't do it by turning fraud into a political weapon and ignoring the record of the person who did more than anyone to weaken accountability.
▶ 3:27:15Representative robbins in minnesota, the governor doesn't have authority to pardon independently. There's a board, I think, in the governor is a member of that board with the attorney general and some others. But if that board in minnesota were to pardon individuals convicted of fraud, clearly convicted of fraud, do you think a pardon like that would damage your efforts to root out corruption and fraud in minnesota?
▶ 3:27:46>> it would really depend on the specifics of the facts of the case and the law. And I. >> you're not you're not. >> willing to comment on a hypothetical. >> you're not going to say that pardoning fraudsters would make it harder to prevent fraud in minnesota. You're not willing to say that today. >> I want to root out fraud and corruption and make sure. People are prosecuted. >> you're not willing to say that you're comfortable with fraudsters being pardoned. You don't think it would damage the work. >> I want everyone who's committed a crime to be prosecuted and held accountable. >> and pardoned. >> it would depend on the case.
▶ 3:28:17I, I don't participate in the pardon process in minnesota, but every case is very unique, and every governor and attorney general should look at. >> Mr. ballou, can you just talk us through? I know this has come up already. The firing of independent inspectors general, the intimidation of them, making it harder to do their jobs. How does that impact fraud prevention and the prosecution of fraud from the perspective of a former prosecutor.
▶ 3:28:46>> one of the best investments that the government can make is in its inspectors general. Last year, igs identified an estimated $50 billion in savings, either through duplicative programs or for, uh, for specifically criminal fraud. Uh, the challenge that we have is with, you know, 19 igs being fired. That work literally is not happening.
▶ 3:29:08And there's evidence to suggest that at least some of them have been fired specifically because they were going after enemies or allies of this administration. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. Uh, cnn article from february 11th, 2025. Usaid ig fired day after report critical of impacts of trump administration. >> without without objection so ordered. Chair now recognizes Mr. burchett from tennessee. >> thank you. >> Mr. chairman.
▶ 3:29:37I think that it needs to be said that governor waltz needs to step down. Um, him saying he will he will stay on to investigate is like oj simpson saying he will investigate the murder of his ex-wife. Just doesn't work out. I have a question. The representatives, and thank you all for being here. It's a tough gig. I did that for many years. Do you think that the walz administration suppressed fraud and abuse and social service programs because they're afraid of exposing somali residents? Just go down the line here. Yes, ma'am.
▶ 3:30:06>> so not only do we think that's what happened, Mr. burchett, but it is also what a somali american investigator associated with the bureau of criminal apprehension said, he said in an article. Fraudsters also have sought to exploit the burgeoning political power of the somali community and the feckless fear that establishment politicians and state agencies show when confronted with charges of racism and islamophobia.
▶ 3:30:30This is from a somali federal prosecutor or or investigator, sir. >> indeed, it's not just a theory. We have the record of the recording of keith ellison meeting with defendants and defeating our future case. What was very explicit that the motivation for keeping scrutiny off them was based on perceived racism. >> ma'am. >> from the mouth of a whistleblower you appear to be holding. So this is what a whistleblower was told.
▶ 3:30:57You appear to be holding back these contracts because they are going to a diverse community. It's not a good look. >> okay. Do you think, um, somalians should be tied tied to these crimes? Should be deported, ma'am. >> if they're not here legally, yes. If they are citizens, they should go through the criminal justice process. And then there might be other categories. But I would have to better understand. Um. >> I agree.
▶ 3:31:25So some of these, I mean, some of these folks are, are born here and then they're or naturalized. So they would, they would have the constitutional protection thereof. So yes ma'am. Sir. >> if there is any legal pathway to do so. >> absolutely ma'am. >> so you've got quite a big bucket of people, right. You've got people that were born here. That's a different situation. You have a people that were naturalized and then those are here illegally. So you have to treat each one completely separately with different paths.
▶ 3:31:58>> ma'am, who is helping these these folks navigate this complex grant application process? It seems to me that it's orchestrated. They've got surely they've got to go to. We've always found that out in um, in my dealings with state government, there was always somebody in there, a gatekeeper. >> yes. My colleague, representative hudson, could speak to it. There is a there is a sort of a cottage industry of somali consultants who helped us. >> I bet there is. Yes, sir. >> yeah.
▶ 3:32:25As I said in my opening statement, I've personally talked to two gentlemen who have worked as consultants for multiple entities receiving government benefits, and they don't believe they're doing anything wrong. And by the letter of the law, they might be legally acting, but they have created an industry out of benefits that were intended to lift people up, not become a business. >> add to that, ma'am.
▶ 3:32:50>> so that is something that we have heard repeatedly from whistleblowers and others that there is, um, yes, I would call it a cottage industry of people that when you land on our soil, that they are going to teach you all the different ways to sign up for multiple, um, social service programs. And there's also that.
▶ 3:33:07So they, they sign up for the max amount, which is probably why there's a report that just came out on december 13th of last year that says that 81% of somalis, uh, were receiving some sort of welfare in minnesota.
▶ 3:33:25>> um, if you don't know the answer to this, just tell me, do you have any knowledge or have heard any talk that somalis are directing, um, any of these funds to, um, american us tax dollars to al-shabab terrorist organization? >> there have been past criminal convictions in this, and currently we believe it's mostly happening indirectly as they send money to somalia, that al-shabab takes a cut. >> I'll agree with that. Be good with that.
▶ 3:33:52Uh, do you think the design of the social service programs incentivizes fraud and abuse? >> absolutely. There's no doubt about it. When when you are willing to hand over a sack of money to somebody on the assumption that they're going to provide a benevolent service, and then you never check to see if they actually did, obviously you're going to invite fraud, waste and abuse, ma'am. >> yeah, absolutely. We just stood up a new program that will probably talk about in a little bit, which is the paid family leave program.
▶ 3:34:19It was literally designed by democrats to have waste, fraud and abuse on a grand scale. >> okay. I'm going to be out of time, Mr. chairman. Thank you. But I think america, we're sick of the hearings. We're sick of all this. We need we need justice. We need convictions. If these folks are guilty and that needs to happen. America is sick of this. It needs to happen. Thank you all so much and thank you for your bravery. >> very well said. Chair recognizes Mr. subramanian. >> uh, thank you.
▶ 3:34:49>> Mr. chair. I'm so glad that committee republicans finally want to talk about fraud and corruption and misuse of federal funds. Uh, uh, this, uh, majority, though, has conveniently avoided this topic. But let's talk about the fraud in this administration. Let's start with president trump accepting a $400 million plane as a gift from qatar, which the president announced he would transfer afterwards to his presidential library, basically to himself.
▶ 3:35:13And then the president announced $1 trillion economic agreement with qatar and a security guarantee for them as well, an unprecedented one. Uh, next to trump, trump has also accepted hundreds of millions of dollars in undisclosed amounts for his ballroom project, including from companies who had civil and potentially criminal charges that were then dropped against them by this administration. Uh, it's not just president trump.
▶ 3:35:35Secretary kristi noem has paid more than $200 million in dhs ad contracts last fall and bypassed the normal competitive bidding process to award some of the funds to a firm with deep ties to herself and then secretary. Nimh also spent $170 million of taxpayer dollars on new jets, including one for her own private travel.
▶ 3:35:55Uh, family members of the president have entered into $2 billion in business deals with the uae government and their government officials, while the us conveniently then signed a major chips agreement with the uae. And then after his election, president trump put $4 billion in shares of his media company in a trust to be run by his son. And then president trump maintained ownership of his business empire while letting his family run the day to day.
▶ 3:36:18Uh, and then in september, forbes estimated that president trump's meme coin tokens were worth $709 million, and his world liberty financial tokens were worth more than $338 million. But we don't know exactly how that happened. Then president trump also stopped the enforcement of foreign bribery and fraud so that we could have american companies commit fraud abroad as well and not get prosecuted.
▶ 3:36:42Uh, president trump also has made hundreds of visits to his own properties using taxpayer dollars, a lot of golfing included, and used his presidency for personal profit, uh, to those properties. And in 2019, the gao reported a trip to mar a lago cost over $3 million. And so if you add that up, that's a lot of taxpayer money being misused and a lot of fraud. Uh, the interim us attorney for dc ended prosecution of a january 6th defendant after he represented that defendant in private practice.
▶ 3:37:10Uh, president trump pardoned fraudster trevor milton, a former ceo convicted of fraud in 2022, who, with the stroke of trump's pen, escaped paying the $600 million in restitution that prosecutors are argued he should pay to people who've invested in his company. According to the washington post, at least 20 people who have received clemency from trump were given forgiveness for financial penalties totaling tens of millions of dollars.
▶ 3:37:33And then president trump pardoned binance founder changpeng zhao, a money launderer, after getting support for a family crypto venture. And then president trump also pardoned ceo andrew wiederhorn for stealing $47 million of his own money from his own company, but had his case dropped after he donated to the president. And then president. Trump also pardoned the founder of the electric vehicle company, nikola, who was convicted of fraud and donated $1.8 million to a political committee supporting president trump.
▶ 3:38:01And prior to his, uh, confirmation, secretary headsets wife owned thousands of dollars in defense stocks, including companies that the contract with the dod and dod secretary had said brought his wife, who has a defense company, investments to meetings with foreign defense officials at a nato gathering where ukraine policy was discussed, and from recently passed funding legislation, us senators can claim over $500,000 in taxpayer dollars over phone record collections.
▶ 3:38:29During the january 6th investigation, we just commemorated the fifth anniversary of january 6th and then borders are tom homan dodged fbi background checks and accepted $50,000 from undercover agents acting as business people in exchange for government contracts. The doj investigation of that was shut down by this administration, president trump wrote on his social media platform, truth social. This is a great time to buy djt. Less than four hours before lifting the tariffs he imposed days earlier, raising accusations of improprieties.
▶ 3:38:59I'd say the accusations are probably well founded. Uh, president trump's fbi director has reportedly used taxpayer dollars to escort his girlfriend's friend home from partying in nashville. Um, rfk jr, the secretary, refused to fully cut ties to a vaccine lawsuit against the pharmaceutical company while serving as secretary, arranging that arrangement that profits from the suit would go to his son. Uh, saudi funded golf tournaments moved events to trump golf courses, providing a financial windfall for president trump and his family as his administration sets middle east policy.
▶ 3:39:29Uh, fbi director kash patel refused to divest from stock holdings in a company that controls a chinese fast fashion firm accused of using forced labor and child labor, raising questions about the extent to which he'd enforce human trafficking laws. Uh, president trump's god bless the american bible, which was a three, uh, dollar production cost and $60 tag per copy, are printed in china. The bible, however, is exempted from trump's tariffs on china due to an exemption for religious materials. Uh, and I could keep going.
▶ 3:39:59Uh, tom kraus, the ceo of cloud software, was hired to work on a payment system at the treasury department, raising questions about competitive advantages for future contracts. A cloud software subsidiary previously donated $1 million to trump's inaugural fund, and the first directive issued by the us department of energy secretary chris wright, focused on advancing geothermal energy, which benefits farvo, in which his former company, liberty energy, had invested $10 million in, uh, commerce secretary. >> uh times expired 40s over and I've been cutting members.
▶ 3:40:30>> I have more. >> you have what? >> I have more, but I'll yield back. >> okay. Uh, chair recognizes, and you can submit anything you want to the record we'll put in there. Chair recognizes mister boebert from colorado. >> thank you, mister chairman. And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 3:40:45Uh, representative robbins, uh, did your fraud prevention committee raise formal concerns about suspected child care fraud to dhs or state leadership before, uh, federal indictments were issued? >> so the original federal indictments came before I was elected back in 2015 or so. And then we thought dhs had cleaned it up and they did not.
▶ 3:41:11So we did a hearing last february of 2025, and we provided them a list of child care facilities we thought they should check out. My understanding is they have not. And um, so we're we're hoping that they will take this seriously and go investigate with on site visits what's going on in these child care facilities. >> and when you raised awareness, um, were the governor, governor tim walz and the attorney general made aware of of these warnings? >> oh, I'm sure.
▶ 3:41:43>> uh, did the state leadership fail to, um, act promptly? I mean, it kind of sounds like they did. If you still haven't received any information, um, regarding these warnings. >> yes. We don't know that they took any action with the list we gave them. >> um, and representative robbins, uh, what recommendations from your committee were given and, uh, and ignored. >> so in general, we always try to look at internal controls, and we've asked I mean, it's not complicated.
▶ 3:42:10We want them to go make sure recipients are eligible, that providers are eligible, that services are actually being provided. Our staff has gone to many of these places. And so it's not just the shirley video. Our staff has gone and looked at this, and there are literally no one there during business hours. Some of the offices where we have the address are empty, like there's no furniture. So so they are not doing their job. >> thank you. Mister.
▶ 3:42:38Mister blue, uh, does the department of justice have more resources to uncover fraud than a 20 year old youtuber? >> yes. Both those resources are declining. >> uh, are they still more than 20 year old youtuber with a with a cell phone camera? >> yeah. As I mentioned earlier, the primary office that would be responsible for prosecuting public corruption, which is what it's being alleged today, has essentially been decimated. Most of the attorneys have been fired.
▶ 3:43:08>> was it decimated when you were there? Was was there funding there then? >> yeah. So I. >> was there then. So why did the department of justice, under the biden administration, ignore repeated attempts to uncover this massive, fraudulent misuse of taxpayer dollars? >> as you may recall, the indictment actually happened during the biden administration.
▶ 3:43:28>> and what action has been taken in the state to ensure that this isn't happening, because we just saw dozens and dozens of centers that are receiving hundreds of millions of dollars collectively, uh, that are not functionally operational. >> yeah. Well, in 2022, under the biden administration, over 70 people were indicted for exactly the scheme. >> so, mister, yes or no?
▶ 3:43:49A medicaid program with low barriers to entry and minimal reimbursement requirements. That's something that would be highly vulnerable to fraud. Um, if oversight is weak. Correct. >> exactly. And the challenge is that that oversight. >> is yes or no further. Thank you for your answer, Mr. blue. Yes or no?
▶ 3:44:11When a program projected at $2.6 million explodes to over $100 million annually, that's a glaring red flag. >> the problem that we have is that all the oversight at the federal level. >> yes or no? Is that a red flag? When when? $2.6 million program. >> the challenge that. >> was over $100 million. Yes or no. >> the offices. >> that are. >> responsible for identifying those red flags are being defunded. >> Mr. blue, yes or no?
▶ 3:44:40When the same individuals or networks, uh, bill multiple medicaid programs, uh, that indicates organized fraud. >> and the challenge that we have. >> is yes or no. Does that indicate fraud when when you're getting the same individuals and networks, um, that are, um, billing multiple medicaid programs? >> precisely. The offices that would identify that are being defunded. >> as they should be. Mr. blue, yes or no?
▶ 3:45:09Did the biden administration cover this up for political reasons? Because uncovering fraud on this massive scale would have hurt the 2024 democrat vice presidential candidate. >> just so I understand, are you saying that the offices that uncover fraud should be defunded? >> uh, I'm I'm saying that these programs and the fraud that is taking place should be defunded. >> my understanding is what you were just saying is that the fraud program.
▶ 3:45:38>> so, no, we we need to uncover these. But, uh, there. >> and the challenge. >> actual programs, those are ballooning to $100 million. And if you could get back to the question I just asked, was this covered up because you thought it would hurt the 2024 democrat presidential vice presidential candidate. >> the office. >> of. >> investigate that. Yes or no. >> yes or no. >> fraud has been defunded. >> in 2024. It was not defunded.
▶ 3:46:03And was this covered up to protect a vice presidential candidate, yes or no? Mr. >> prior to 2024, over 70 indictments were brought under the Mr. >> balloon. Was this covered up to protect a political candidate? >> once again, that office has been defunded and there are over 70. >> I'm I'm sorry that you're not answering questions before this committee correctly. Thank you. >> and who's next? >> oh, okay. >> thank you.
▶ 3:46:30Uh, chair now recognizes miss tlaib from michigan. >> uh, thank you so much, Mr. chairman. Thank you all so much for being here. I think as someone who served in the state house, I know how important it is. No matter if there's a d or r next to, uh, you know, any name or anybody that's in charge to make sure we root out any sort of fraud scams because we know it hurts everyone.
▶ 3:46:51But as a muslim american, I got to ask you all as a public servant because, um, you know, representative robbins hudson rarick, like, do you believe every somali in minnesota is engaged in fraud right now? Yes or no? You start. >> no, no. >> absolutely not. >> do you believe that muslims are demons? >> no, no. >> absolutely not. That's a ridiculous thing to even say. I hope nobody says that.
▶ 3:47:19>> yeah, well, I just think it's really important, as you all do, the job that you need to do, to also root out hate and divisive language that put, you know, you can't imagine a child listening to that. You know what I mean? And they're seeing that. And I'm telling you, as somebody that grew up muslim in america, sometimes you're just listening to that and you feel othered. You feel like you're less than that. Maybe this the things that are being said are true. And so, you know, mister chair, I have to submit for the record, this is I know this is not your only source.
▶ 3:47:47I heard you, but, you know, unnamed source in a viral minnesota somali fraud video is a right wing lobbyist who called muslim demons. But why? This is more disturbing. And I don't know if any of you shared it, but I want you to know that who shared it, despite this, and all the falsehoods that my colleagues have already highlighted in a very, very shameful way, that this video has been shared widely and proudly by attorney general pam bondi, by fbi director kash patel, by vice president jd vance, who actually called the,
▶ 3:48:19Quote, far more useful journalism than any of our winners of the 2024 pulitzer prizes. The videos, the video creators, nick shirley has been built this career, right, but on a lot of islamophobia and dehumanization that I just feel as public servants, as you root out fraud and you have to that you don't make it out that it's about the somali community. It's about maybe not having the checks and balances and maybe, again, wanting to do that.
▶ 3:48:45But I urge you all because this is the same person that also talked about the community I represent in the city of dearborn. And again, there are children watching. And I say this, that racist rhetoric, no matter faith or ethnicity against any of our neighbors, uh, is not going to prevent fraud. Doing this will not prevent fraud. Um, we already saw, like trump administration using this story to pretext of sending 2000 federal agents to target and harass somali american community.
▶ 3:49:14I mean, do you agree with that? Sending troops in? >> I don't think ice agents are troops, and ice agents should be able to do their job anywhere in america. >> federal agents? You're right. I met federal agents. Ma'am. Do you believe federal agents should come in? And 2000 federal agents should come into your state? >> I think ice agents should be doing their job anywhere in america. It's their jurisdiction. And if there are criminal. >> response of the president. So if you if.
▶ 3:49:42>> there are criminals who need to be deported, they should be deported. >> but that's not what's going to happen. President hudson. >> I absolutely welcome immigration enforcement in the state. >> but do you think it's really immigration enforcement because they're racially profiling? They're going to just stop people that look somali or look muslim or ethnic and just harass them. And I'm telling you as somebody that for the first time ever, my mother in 50 years, being here in the sweetest woman, she'd feed anybody. She doesn't care if you're a republican, democrat.
▶ 3:50:07She would make sure you're not hungry and fed, and she's carrying a passport for the first time in her life here. Because she knows because she wears a hijab, she might be stopped by ice agent. Is that the kind of militarization? I know you won't get stopped, but somebody like my mother and somebody like your somali american neighbors in minnesota will be stopped in a way that is dehumanizing. They do it in front of kids. They don't care.
▶ 3:50:33And I'm saying this to you and asking all of you, do your job, but don't allow your job and what you're doing to be utilized as a racist trope that all somali americans are criminals, that they're that muslims are demons. It's incredibly dangerous. And so, you know, in representative robin hudson, you know, one of the things that the collective punishment. Right? I mean, the fact that now I'm seeing the trump administration say, okay, we're going to cut child care and social services to california, illinois, new york, minnesota, colorado.
▶ 3:51:03Like, is that really the answer? Is that going to prevent fraud? Do you believe cutting 23,000 kids from child care, do you think that's going to prevent fraud? >> so my understanding it's not being cut. If they can document that the actual children are there and that they have attendance records, they will get the funding. So this is a misnomer saying it's all going to be cut. It's not true. >> we'll see. Representative hudson. >> I tend not to blame firemen for water damage when they put out a fire, okay? And that's what's going on. >> so you're good with them. Cut. Okay. How about you?
▶ 3:51:34>> I believe in the due process of law. And so back to your comment about your dear mother. Yeah. Um, because she wears a hijab and she has to carry her passport. So I think that every person has value. Everyone, uh, is a child of god, right. And we may have a different name. But here's the thing is that they all deserve respect. They all deserve kindness. They all deserve the process of law and and due process. And I'll tell you, that is what we believe in.
▶ 3:52:03>> and I see it among my community. It's very diverse community. We're calling people on other, you know, folks that are no matter what their background is, because we don't want any criminal activity or fraud because we know it hurts everybody. But I'm asking all of you, as you do this, your job, call out against the racist comments, protect everyone in minnesota, no matter their faith or ethnicity. So be careful in sharing these. I'm sorry, chairman, this is important.
▶ 3:52:25Be careful as you do your job not to allow people that you all are trying to root out fraud, to be used as a ploy to go after muslims. >> lady time's expired. Thank you. Chair. Before I recognize mister cloud, uh, Mr. gill has the unanimous consent request. >> sure. Yep. This is from the minnesota reformer. Uh, somali-american former investigator. While you're hearing about fraud in my community. >> without objection. So ordered chair. Now, do you have another one? Okay.
▶ 3:52:52Chair recognizes mister cloud from texas for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman, and I appreciate you holding this hearing. Uh, it's important, as you have mentioned at the outset, that we continue our work to uncover waste, fraud and abuse and especially in holding this hearing, uh, kind of brings some light to this issue that the media, really, they were scooped. And so in a sense that they're having to cover this issue when really they should have been the ones to investigate and reveal this is telling.
▶ 3:53:21Um, no doubt there's fraud everywhere. Uh, when you're spending trillions of dollars, there's going to be pockets of fraud. But one of the things that's been revealing this year, as we've worked through the doj's process, is uncovering the extent of the fraud, how it's been systemized, weaponized, and how it's we've really unveiled that. It's the world's history's largest money laundering scheme. Uh, and much of this should be a bipartisan issue to go after the waste, fraud and abuse.
▶ 3:53:50But what we found out is much of the taxpayer funding is going to up in uphold leftist organizations and their campaign practices and the like. Um, what's particularly telling about this issue in minnesota isn't the fact that there's waste, fraud and abuse. No doubt that's happening in a number of states, and we need to continue to work to clean, clean it up.
▶ 3:54:10But the way that this has been systematized, institutionalized, and the corrupt and corrosive nature and even criminal, uh, coercion that went on from the governor's office and his administration, uh, is particularly troubling. Uh, I think it's notable that the biden administration was aware of this, even as they tried to sell the, uh, the harris waltz administration on the on on the american people.
▶ 3:54:37Uh, and and perhaps that's, you know, why we didn't see this come to light as we should. But, uh, representative hudson, I was, uh, I appreciated something you said in your testimony in the sense that, uh, these you said how the structure of these programs creates incentives that reliably produce the waste, fraud and abuse across multiple service areas, regardless of the program, uh, or intent. And this is kind of what we see oftentimes that, you know, for good intentions, maybe congress obtains these programs.
▶ 3:55:06But over the decades, what we've seen is they've expanded to where many of them almost end up being a system of waste, fraud, and abuse, uh, with a veneer of care and concern for people. Uh, and our job in congress is to help bring the tools to, uh, make sure that that doesn't happen. And so the ranking member said, you know, where fraud existed. We should look into it. Uh, we should hold people accountable.
▶ 3:55:31Uh, what we see coming from the left a lot of times is they're fine with the reactionary we're finding in bringing, uh, prosecutions after the fact because the money's already gone out. We're fine with prosecuting people who do ballot harvesting once the ballots are in the pot, and we can't separate them. Uh, but it's far better for us to prevent it. Uh, I'd like to talk to. I'll start with you, Mr. hudson, but. But if you want to jump in, uh, what controls states should be putting in.
▶ 3:55:59But really, it comes down to us in saying whatever federal dollars you are receiving, you should be getting these controls, uh, in place. So, uh, could you speak to the institutionalization of this fraud and the schemes that are in place, maybe list some examples and then speak to some of the controls that you would recommend that we take on legislatively to make sure states are doing their job? >> it's a very big question, and I'll try to be concise. So I haven't put a whole lot of thought into what congress should do given my state legislative role.
▶ 3:56:28But I can tell you that states are primarily responsible for the administration of these programs, for setting up rules, for engaging in verification and compliance. And so what I imagine congress can do is provide either incentive or some form of, for lack of a better term, punishment to states who fail to. >> states are actually incentivized, in a sense, to game the system against the american taxpayer 100%. >> yeah, absolutely.
▶ 3:56:54And so the program, the programs in minnesota need to be redesigned from top to bottom. I mean, it needs to be like a demolition and rebuild, because the way they're currently structured, I think most americans, when they think about benefit programs, they think about they think about, like their neighbor and how they would help out their neighbor. But that's not how these programs work. It's not relational. It doesn't come with expectations or gratitude or an incentive to make your life better.
▶ 3:57:22It is set up to create a perpetual industry out of taking money from taxpayers. >> yeah, that's that's troubling. Uh, would you like to speak to that? >> yes. I think one of the most practical things you can do is to require documentation from the recipient and from the provider. In minnesota, most of these providers are set up and and the recipients based on attestation. And nobody then goes and checks. Are they really eligible.
▶ 3:57:49Are the services actually being provided. We had the housing stabilization program. They estimate 90% of it was fraud. Nobody checked if services were actually being provided. And I think you could also require repayment to the feds if there's fraud. And that would make states pay attention to administration if they had to repay the money, if it was not spent on the proper services. >> thank you. Those are a few good tips. We'll hopefully stay in constant communication. My time is up. Chair.
▶ 3:58:19I know we opened up a can of worms there that could take another hour or two, but thank you chairman, I yield back. >> thank you. Chair recognizes Mr. min. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chair. Appreciate today's hearing. And I am deeply concerned about the allegations of fraud that we are learning about, um, around the disbursement of social services funding in minnesota. Uh, this is fraud of the worst kind. It's literally taking food out of the mouths of hungry kids, uh, so that people can enrich themselves.
▶ 3:58:45Uh, and just for your clarification, I've spent actually spent my career fighting fraud. My first job out of law school was at the sec. Uh, this was in the aftermath of another major set of frauds, the enron and worldcom accounting scandals, which, of course, from the private sector, not the public sector. Uh, in congress, this has been my, um, just over a year at this point. But I was happy to sponsor h.r. 1156, a republican led bill that came before this committee last year.
▶ 3:59:12Uh, and I think that we need aggressive enforcement and accountability when it comes to taxpayer dollars and their disbursement. Uh, that being said, uh, I have concerns about this hearing as well as recent actions taken by the trump administration. And it's hard for me not to look at this hearing in the context in which it's taking place and not see this as a partizan and racist hearing, uh, and for the reasons mentioned by my colleague.
▶ 3:59:39But we have not had other hearings, uh, when it comes to fraud that takes place in republican led states. We've not had hearings in this committee, as far as I'm aware, or any other committee this year, as long as I've been in congress, uh, they go after those who are not somali american. And so I hope you all can appreciate that by holding this hearing, uh, in isolation of any other hearings around oversight or fraud, that it looks like we're going after one community in one state when we know it's rampant.
▶ 4:00:05So I guess my first question to you all and you all can raise your hand, or if you don't want to raise your hand, feel free to not raise your hand. But, uh, do you believe that fraud only takes place in democratic led states? >> no, no. >> and do you believe the fraud only takes place in the somali communities? >> no. Absolutely not. >> no.
▶ 4:00:24>> and would it surprise you to know that that the congress has not done hearings, uh, on either frauds that have taken place in republican led states or on frauds that have taken place in non somalian communities. So this year, since I've taken congress so that this this oversight committee in particular, in the last in this session. >> the minnesota legislature, we are literally drowning in fraud. >> that was a yes no question. So I'm going to reclaim my time. So thank you very. >> much all. >> of our time.
▶ 4:00:53And so I would just say that if this was a serious hearing, if this was a more serious attempt at oversight, we'd be looking across the board. Uh, and uh, this is also hard to not take in the context of president trump's announcement, I think just yesterday that he would be illegal, I would add withholding funds for child care and other purposes from states led by democratic governors, including not only minnesota, but my home state of california, as well as several others.
▶ 4:01:17Kids are going to go hungry in my district, uh, when we have not seen evidence of any type of fraud on the scale we're talking about in california, in colorado, in illinois. Uh, and yet donald trump is withholding funds from those states. Uh, and so it looks like a very partizan effort here to go after blue states, uh, $10 billion is being withheld, $10 billion. And we already have struggling people right now trying to pay the bills because of rising health care costs, inflation, etc. It's cruel and vindictive.
▶ 4:01:47It is also, I think, another example of the ways in which president trump and this committee and this republican led congress look increasingly like they're weaponizing the government to go after democrats and people they perceive as their political critics, rather than going out and trying to address fraud in all ways, shapes and forms. We know, for example, that there have been massive frauds that have been uncovered in places like florida, texas, louisiana and mississippi.
▶ 4:02:12And I want to highlight mississippi because mississippi has made a lot of news recently because they've had the largest public corruption scandal in their history. And yet this committee has not addressed that. Once we have not done a hearing on it, there's been no letters or inquiries. As far as I understand this year, my time in the, in congress, uh, so this is quite problematic. It includes celebrities like brett favre. We all know about, uh, and so it's very problematic to me that we are not actually doing this. Uh, now, Mr.
▶ 4:02:38Ballou, you mentioned earlier that, uh, you know, we it's hard to uncover fraud or no fraud or know the motivations when we are getting rid of inspector general. I think that was your implication. And I just want to lean into that just a little bit, because I think what the republicans have done in your state actually makes a lot of sense to me. Receiving tips from the public investigating those tips, uh, and then trying to provide transparency around your findings. And yet that is Mr. blue. That is what inspectors general do, right? >> that's precisely their job.
▶ 4:03:09>> and would it surprise you to know that this committee, which is tasked with overseeing the federal government, has done zero hearings since donald trump fired all the inspector generals at the beginning of his term? >> that's unfortunate. >> we really can't have a discussion around fraud, misuse of taxpayer dollars or waste if we aren't talking about the fact that we just got rid of all the people that are supposed to oversee that. Uh, so I have one last question here, and. >> your time has expired.
▶ 4:03:33You've gone over a minute, but you you you I firing the inspector general when we're when you admit there's massive fraud in republican states to the the ig's have failed. Can I ask we keep funding these agencies and when we there's evidence that the money has been defrauded. >> I have a parliamentary inquiry for you, sir. >> well. Go ahead. >> uh, is are we allowed to use this committee's resources to only go after fraud or states of one party? >> no. We can go after fraud in any party.
▶ 4:04:04>> are we going to go after? Are we going to look into mississippi the way that we're looking in minnesota? >> you bring stuff forward, you have whistleblowers come forward. We'll look after it in any state. >> you will hold a hearing. Do you have your. >> well, well, it depends on the evidence. Chair now recognizes Mr. burleson from missouri. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. >> I have already recognized Mr. burleson. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I appreciate it. And actually I'd like to remind the committee that this this party, this side of the aisle has dedicated tremendous resources to rooting out waste, fraud and abuse.
▶ 4:04:32In fact, the chairman set up a a committee called doge that the other side of the aisle, you know, demonized and criticized in our efforts in which we had multiple hearings to identify waste, fraud and abuse throughout all of the government agencies. And so I applaud the chairman and, and this side for, for the work that we've been doing. But, um, you know, sadly, minnesota has become an example because of the extent of the waste and the fraud.
▶ 4:05:02Um, it it I have to ask, it must be embarrassing for the citizens of minnesota. Um, chairman or chairwoman robbins. >> so I'm not embarrassed to be from minnesota, but I am frustrated and angry about the theft of taxpayer money. >> my I have I have, uh, family that live in in minnesota. It is it's a wonderful state. And I and I know that they are angry that they're very frustrated.
▶ 4:05:29So I think that we talk about the amount of money that's being wasted, $9 billion. That seems like an abstract amount. But let's break that down. $9 billion stolen from less than 6 million citizens of minnesota, correct. That's per individual. Imagine. Right. You know, every citizen of minnesota, your bank account. Suddenly someone took $1,500 out of your bank account.
▶ 4:05:55Every taxpayer, there's around 3 million citizens or taxpayers in minnesota. Every taxpayer just had $3,000 stolen from their bank account. How does that feel to the to a citizen of minnesota? >> minnesotans are so frustrated because not only have we had that money stolen from us, but we had an $18 billion surplus that tim walz spent and then raised our taxes $11 billion and left us with a $6 billion deficit. So we've had the fiscal mismanagement on top of the fraud.
▶ 4:06:25And minnesotans are completely fed up. >> you know, in missouri, um, there's also an opportunity cost to all that money. So in missouri, we just, uh, you know, greenlit a project to add more lanes to I-70, which runs from one end of the state to the other. And it was only it was less than $3 billion you could imagine. People in minnesota could enjoy adding additional lanes on interstates.
▶ 4:06:50Um, on three of your interstates I-35, I-90, I-94, I-90. Don't you think the people of minnesota would love to have wider lane or more lanes added to their highway infrastructure? >> they absolutely would. But even if we stayed in the social service realm, there was $104 million in one year that was fraudulent in the housing stabilization service.
▶ 4:07:14If we could have taken that $104 million and put it into supportive housing, we would have done a lot to solve the homelessness problem. So every time these dollars are fraudulently stolen, it is a huge opportunity cost for minnesotans. >> absolutely. And and you've been sounding the alarm for quite some time. Um, why has it taken until 2025 for these to fully come to light? >> the fraud prevention and state oversight committee was formed in 2025.
▶ 4:07:41Once, uh, we took, uh, had a tie in the house. >> so when when you guys, the republican took majority, you finally or you you were able to to actually read out the waste, fraud and abuse in minnesota, which is why we now know about it. >> yes. We're not we're in a tie, technically, but, um, we were able to negotiate this as part of part of the power sharing agreement. >> um, I seek unanimous consent, Mr. chairman, to enter into the record. Um, a article from the new york post.
▶ 4:08:10Former homeland security agent claims prosecutors ignored minnesota daycare fraud cases. They just evaporated. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you. So there's been investigations been going on for some time. Um, I understand you don't report them or have really kind of bypassed the state. The state agencies, um, you report directly to the federal government. Can you elaborate on why that is? It's pretty obvious why.
▶ 4:08:34>> but so when my staff, we have a very small staff, we have one researcher on our committee, and then we as members also do a lot of our own research. And when we get an investigation that is credible, we do as much research as we can. But as I said earlier, we don't have access to bank records, health records or the state payment system. And so based on that, when we get something that's credible, we turn it over to the office of legislative auditor and to the U.S. attorney's office.
▶ 4:09:00I have been accused of hiding whistleblower data from the department. But when the department comes to hearings, we provide documents. Every time I flagged 72 child care centers, we've we've given them lists of all of the housing, um, multiple addresses where there's more than five providers, sometimes up to 22 providers at the same address. They've done nothing with it. But what I don't give them is the whistleblower information, because I'm protecting our whistleblowers in minnesota.
▶ 4:09:29They finally are stepping up and I have their back. >> good for you and I appreciate you for doing that. And then finally with that, I'll end. I have more more articles to submit for the record, Mr. chairman. >> do you want to submit them now or are you going to submit them? Okay. Proceed. >> okay. One is the or an article produced was about child child care welfare fraud. >> without objection to ordered. >> um a report produced by the office of legislator, legislative auditor of minnesota child care assistance programs.
▶ 4:09:59Assessment of fraud allegations. >> without objection. >> so ordered. And then from the minnesota house research group, the child care assistance programs and the fraud within. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. >> chair now recognizes Mr. frost from florida. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. It is very important that we eliminate fraud in our social programs.
▶ 4:10:17And I'm glad that governor walz has taken real, concrete steps in minnesota to combat fraud, like signing legislation to strengthen states agencies ability to detect, prevent and prosecute fraud, and establishing a statewide inspector general coordinating council, and appointing an independent state auditor to investigate claims. Uh, Mr. ballou, how will these actions help uncover and prevent fraud in the state?
▶ 4:10:41>> well, it's the funding and staffing that's necessary to uncover fraud that's happening at a state level, but that staffing is not being mirrored at the federal level. >> what do you mean by that? >> well, bluntly, most of the enforcement mechanisms for going after white collar crime are being decimated, especially in the justice department, but also the consumer financial protection bureau and the securities and exchange commission. >> of course, as you pointed out, you know, it's important for governors to play a big role in fighting fraud in their state.
▶ 4:11:09I want to give you a hypothetical. Let's say that you have a state's governor, um, that funnels millions of dollars from the state's money over to the governor's wife's nonprofit. Let's say, then that nonprofit takes that same money and gives it to political action committees that help her husband's causes. Would that worth be worth investigating? >> absolutely. >> well, what say the rest of the witnesses in that hypothetical? Is that something we should also investigate?
▶ 4:11:36>> so I don't think we're in a place to talk about hypotheticals. But thank you for the question. >> the rest of the witnesses, you don't think we should investigate fraud? What do you think? >> I think I came here prepared to talk about the fraud that's taking place in my state. Okay? Contain my testimony to the purpose of the hearing. >> representative robbins. >> I think we should investigate credible allegations of fraud wherever they are, but we don't. >> thank you. I 100% agree with you, representative.
▶ 4:12:01And actually, you know, I want to talk about something that's really important because my colleague dave min just brought up something, um, and, you know, chair comer, you had said if there's, uh, if there's credible allegations, if there's evidence, we should look into it. And I have something for us to look into. This is not a hypothetical. This happened in my state of florida. Governor ron desantis, casey desantis and the florida foundation have been subject to a bipartisan investigation. And now a criminal investigation for this exact same thing I just talked about.
▶ 4:12:28So if we're going to be here, going state by state in this committee talking about fraud, I'm okay with doing that. But let's make sure it's not just democratic states like dave min said. And let's also look at republican led states as well. Uh, because what happened, my state of florida is $10 million of medicaid money was funneled to the governor's wife's nonprofit. Then that nonprofit took that money and gave it to political action committees helping her husband.
▶ 4:12:55I'd like to insert, for the record, unanimous consent for the new york times. Why did a charity tied to casey desantis suddenly get $10 million boost? >> without objection. So ordered. >> chair comer, will you commit to working with me to schedule a hearing. >> on this? Get the stuff to me and we'll we'll definitely look at $10 million. We're talking about $9 billion today. Yeah. Get that. Get that to me. >> yeah, I'll get it to you. I'll get it to you.
▶ 4:13:17Definitely a lower amount of money, but $10 million of medicaid money going to being funneled from taxpayer floridians to political action committees, um, is fraud and is criminal. And this is bipartisan investigation looked at by both democrats and republicans. And I definitely expect this committee to do the same thing. And I have one more thing I want to talk about that, uh, representative ansari brought up president trump, reposted conspiracy theories on his truth social account about the murder of minnesota state legislators mark and melissa hortman. That suggests that minnesota governor tim walz had the hormones assassinated.
▶ 4:13:49Governor walz says this behavior will get more innocent people killed, and the hortman children have come out on the president and said and called on the president to take the statements down. I think it is very important that we are very clear that we condemn this type of behavior. So I just want to go down the line and hear if you agree with the hortman children that we should condemn, and we ask the president to take down this post. Uh, Mr. uh. >> yes, representative.
▶ 4:14:18>> so as the longest serving member on this panel of minnesota, I am so offended that anybody would accuse anybody of the assassination other than lance boulter, because this was do you agree with the deep scar in the state of minnesota and all of us personally? I served with melissa my entire 13 years. Do you agree? It is just unbelievably beyond the pale. Do you agree that we should. >> we should call the president, take down the post. That's it. >> I said, but I said, I think that it's beyond the pale that anybody.
▶ 4:14:47>> okay, you can't come to call the press and take down the post. Anybody move on, representative hudson, we'll move on. >> thank you. >> ma'am, thank you ma'am, we'll move on. You can't call the president. Take down this post. Um, we'll move on to representative hudson. It's just a yes or no. >> uh, I cannot deceive the committee by giving it a binary. I have spoken to this many times. I have, uh, renounced the content of these ridiculous conspiracy theories, and I've called ridiculous on multiple states. >> do you think the president of the united states. >> I am not going to engage in the silly condemnation.
▶ 4:15:15>> no, no, no, this is not no no no no no, this is silly. This is the what did you. >> have to say about. >> my time? I'll reclaim my time. I'll reclaim what you have to say about jones. He's the chief law enforcement officer. Reclaim the state of virginia. I'll reclaim my fantasizing about. Republican will reclaim my time. Gentlemen, mothers are talking. I'm not playing this game. Gentlemen will stop talking on my time. >> order, order! We'll. We'll give you a few seconds to close. Mr. frost. >> I have to comment on this because this is not silly.
▶ 4:15:43It is not silly to expect good behavior from the people at the highest levels of our government, including jones. Not your time, do you expect? Not your time. Including the president of the united states, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. timmons from south carolina. Uh, is that right? Yeah. Mr. timmons. >> Mr. chairman, we're only one week in to 2026. The democrats are having a tough year. Here we are. This should not be a partizan issue. We've uncovered $9 billion in fraud.
▶ 4:16:13It doesn't matter if it's a red state or a blue state. That's $9 billion. And you got to remember, the purpose of these social safety nets is to help people that need help. And when we have that amount of fraud, it undermines the purpose of the social safety nets. The people that want and need the benefits that they are deserving because they're american citizens, they're unable to get them because people are stealing money.
▶ 4:16:33And it's even somewhat comical because just a few days ago, when the trump administration executed the most incredible, um, I mean, the technically executed a warrant on maduro, a narco terrorist, they were able to not have a single casualty from our military. They limited collateral damage, and they executed what is truly just a perfect tactical military operation. And the democrats have gone ballistic over it. Gone ballistic. This man has had warrants out for his arrest for five years.
▶ 4:17:01He's had a $25 million bounty, which was increased to a $50 million bounty. This is not a partizan issue. He has killed hundreds of thousands of americans over the last few decades because he's sent drugs here for americans to use, and they've died from it. This is not a partizan issue. Venezuela was a huge step in the right direction. Peace through strength works. We got to get together and we got to work on the issues that the american people want us to work on and seeking out waste, fraud and abuse.
▶ 4:17:29Seeking out $9 billion in theft of social safety net money is something that should not be partizan. And the fact that my colleagues across the aisle are going ballistic over these ridiculous ancillary issues and trying to cast shade over what should not be a partizan issue is just ridiculous. So get it together. We need to do the job that the american people sent us here to do. I want to actually point something out.
▶ 4:17:54So, uh, representative robbins, my understanding is that around $250 million in fraud was found in the four years of the biden administration. There were a number of indictments, dozens of indictments. Is that number about right? >> yes. I think now they're up to about 310 million for the feeding our future. >> all right. Thank you. So in the last year, in the last year we're at 9 billion. Is that the number you got? >> yes.
▶ 4:18:18The us attorney has estimated that the total fraud in the medicaid portion, which has nothing to do with feeding our future. So it's on top of that, three, 10 million is half of it is fraud. >> thank you, mister bully. You see where I'm going with this? So you're saying that we have had, uh, we've decimated the budget of the igs, which, by the way, weren't doing their jobs because we've uncovered, uh, I mean, 8.58, 8.6 billion more dollars in fraud with less resources.
▶ 4:18:44So how do you explain your testimony earlier that we've decimated the entities that are designed to investigate fraud when we've uncovered, uh, exponentially more fraud with less resources? How do you how do you explain that? You know, what we've been talking. >> about today is not just regular fraud, but public corruption. >> so the thing that we have now is not having a hearing on public corruption. We are having a hearing on $9 billion in fraud associated with minnesota social safety nets.
▶ 4:19:10And so you keep pushing back on that, that you keep pushing back on this narrative that we should be seeking out waste, fraud and abuse everywhere by saying that the trump administration has decimated the entities that are designed to seek out ways for abuse, and yet those same entities have uncovered exponentially more fraud. The problem is that the they have a problem. Public officials, you know, your public integrity section has logic is flawed and neurologic is flawed. I just want to point it out. It's okay. So I guess I want to get to this.
▶ 4:19:38We have a limited amount of money. We have $37 trillion in debt. We run a $2 trillion annual deficit. And we have spent much of this year seeking out waste, fraud, abuse, trying to get our fiscal house back in order because we're running out of time. So this cannot be a partizan issue. We cannot solve these problems without a bipartisan approach. So I have a bill that I filed called the tabs act. And what it does is it uses technology to confirm income eligibility.
▶ 4:20:05So $1.5 trillion every year go to social safety nets that are means tested, meaning depending on where you live, if you make too much money, you don't get them. And so if we use technology to real time verify, you can actually give the social safety net to the person that's seeking it way faster in most cases immediately, and then you can remove them from that social safety net in real time. In the the big beautiful bill, we changed it from once a year to twice a year. And that saved $10 billion.
▶ 4:20:34If you do it in real time, you're going to save 20% of the money. So if you extrapolate that over ten years, it's about $2.5 trillion in savings for means tested social safety nets. These are the kind of things we need to be doing. This is not a partizan issue. We all agree that people fall on hard times and we need to help them up. We need to help them up. But if we have $9 billion of fraud in minnesota, imagine what we have in california. Imagine we have in new york.
▶ 4:21:00Imagine what we have across this country, and we've got to get a handle because we're running out of time. We can't keep spending money we don't have. With that. Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you. Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. palmer from alabama. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Miss robbins, how long do you think the corrupt, corrupt activity has been going on in minnesota? >> I, we have whistleblower reports dating back from 2013 or 2014. So through the dayton administration, the last administration. >> over a decade. Okay.
▶ 4:21:28Why is it that, uh, we're just now seeing, uh, having this fully uncovered? Uh, and I'm not sure it's fully uncovered yet. Why is it? I mean, you've got an attorney general, you've got a governor who claims to be pure as the driven snow, and you get a lot of snow in minnesota. Um, why is it just now coming out?
▶ 4:21:52>> well, because it's been a failure of the administration, particularly our office of management and budget, who has responsibility constitutionally for this. And they have not been doing their job, but because we were able to create this oversight committee, it's the first time in the history of our legislature we've had an oversight committee.
▶ 4:22:08>> would you agree that, uh, with this fraud going on over a decade and basically the lackadaisical or disinterested approach from from your, your government, uh, that that's why it's necessary for the oversight committee here in congress to, to take this up. Would you agree with that? >> I do, we're grateful for your help because we don't have the resources and we don't have subpoena power and some of the tools that you have.
▶ 4:22:35>> well, the reason that, uh, one of the reasons that I don't think we need to bring mississippi in here is because they've been very aggressive in their investigation and prosecution, along with the U.S. attorney's office. And I just want to point that out, Mr. chairman, that we wouldn't be sitting here today asking the questions that we're having to ask if governor, uh, the governor of minnesota, uh, waltz and, uh, and the attorney general and the other people that are responsible for oversight had acted, uh, expeditiously, uh, in
▶ 4:23:06Investigating this themselves. So that's why we're here, isn't it? >> yes, sir. >> I appreciate all of you being here. Uh, the charges and reports of fraud, fraudulent, um, autism centers in minnesota are shocking to me. Uh, could you describe to us, um, your committee's findings in this area, uh, miss robbins, and how how these fraudsters were operating. >> it is really shocking.
▶ 4:23:30So there were, uh, autism centers that are medicaid waiver program, and people were getting paid kickbacks to sign their kids up to participate in the autism center so they could build medicaid. And these children didn't necessarily have autism.
▶ 4:23:46We have substantiated, uh, documented in, in by the us attorney how the parents were getting their kids falsely diagnosed with autism so that then they could get a kickback to participate in billing medicaid for autism services. >> it's not just the fraud in terms of money. It's the abuse of children by the by their parents. Uh, that has taken place here.
▶ 4:24:10Um, and they were able to defraud, uh, the program. Millions. >> yes. I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg in understanding. And there's been a handful of charges, but we expect more. >> um, Mr. hudson, do you do you think, uh, general ellison or governor walz was aware of the fraud? Uh, prior to the exposure that has been brought now? >> oh, there's there's simply no doubt.
▶ 4:24:39I mean, again, referring to the exhibit that I submitted with my testimony, 2500 pages of reports citing all of the red flags and risk factors, and they did not take appropriate action. >> um, why do you think they did that? Mr. uh, Mr. hudson and miss rarick, she's about to hit her button. So go ahead.
▶ 4:25:01>> in my opinion, the most the simplest answer, the most logical answer is that they didn't want to know the answer to the question, because the answer to the question was going to require them to take action against one of their favorite political candidates. >> it's also been alleged that they may have benefited. >> yeah, that has been alleged, and I hope the evidence is entered into the record through investigation and prosecution. >> well, it's going to be a thorough investigation, Mr. rarick. You you're about to say something. >> just really quickly. So I think it should be noted.
▶ 4:25:29We haven't said this yet, but jim nobles was our legislative auditor for 38 years, and he did an article or he did a statement in the star tribune on december 29th of 25. And he said literally all the state needed to do was implement standard financial controls and oversight. Why the walls administration did not do that. It's still a mystery, but it's disturbing. >> okay, Mr. chairman, I think we just heard full justification for why we're having to have this hearing.
▶ 4:25:58Why we'll have to follow up, because clearly, the state of minnesota had, uh, almost a lack of interest, maybe even, uh, an interest in covering it up. And so with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back and look forward to, uh, a further investigating this this. >> thank you, Mr. palmer. I think the evidence is clear as well. Uh, chair now recognizes miss luna from florida. >> thank you, chairman comer. Uh, before I get to the questioning of some of our witnesses today. And thank you again for being here.
▶ 4:26:25I would like to make a motion to subpoena journalist seth harp for leaking classified information, including doxing a delta force commander on operation absolute resolve, which liberated the venezuelan people and brought a terrorist dictator to the united states to face justice for his crimes against american citizens. >> a motion has been made and another motion by miss luna. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance till the end of today's hearing. Mr. chair. Proceed, chairman. >> thank you, chairman comer.
▶ 4:26:54>> um, I make a motion to hold on. >> hold on. There's been a parliamentary inquiry. >> we'd like to request this in writing. >> okay. >> I can submit that if I can, just. Right after this, I'll totally submit that to you guys, because I have some other motions that we're voting on at the end. At the end. This is a great motion in writing. We want everyone on record for this one. >> thank you. Chair recognizes miss luna. >> thank you, chairman comer. Um, honorable robbins, based on your record before your committee, what did governor walz first become aware of? Widespread fraud in minnesota social service programs?
▶ 4:27:25>> I would, uh, assume that he has been aware of it since he ran for office for governor in 2018. >> by 2017, dhs investigators warned cap fraud could exceed 50%. What was that information elevated to the governor's office? >> yes, there was an old report. >> thank you. Ma'am. Um, by 2020, state officials knew feeding our future invoices were fraudulent. We know that payments continue to the ag's knowledge. Did they continue to governor the governor's knowledge as well? >> yes.
▶ 4:27:54>> um, attorney general ellison agreed on tape to fight minnesota's own department of human and health services in exchange for somali political and financial support. And your personal opinion, do you believe it is a possibility that governor walz also made that personal deal, or that he at least knew about the attorney general's agreement? >> I don't know, okay. >> um, I don't want to rehash what you guys have spent hours answering. We know that there's a big issue with the fraud in minnesota. Um, so on a number of things I'd first like to point out.
▶ 4:28:23Thank you for being here today. Um, but because of your testimony and because of some of the evidence that we've seen brought forward, as well as, I'm sure the fact that this committee, I assume, um, at chairman comer's direction will be soon subpoenaing ag ellison, I would like to make criminal referrals. Um, regarding governor walz as well as ag ellison. Um, as you know, us code 371 and us code two, which deals with criminal conspiracy to defraud the united states and establishes liability for individuals who knowingly aid or abet the commission of federal offense.
▶ 4:28:53Um includes willful blindness or deliberate inaction where duties to act exist. So I will be referring them later on today. Now, aside from that, um, I do just want to point out that there is a statute that you can denaturalize citizens if their applications were fraudulent, and also to if within ten years of their naturalization, um, that they committed fraud in the us.
▶ 4:29:14And so I take this very seriously, and it's very unfortunate that these people chose to do this, because being an american citizen is not a right. It's a privilege, especially if you are not born here. And so with that idea in mind, I would like to say that these criminals took advantage of the very country that gave them refuge. They do not deserve the privilege of remaining here, and frankly, they don't deserve to even be imprisoned here. Which is why, as the chairwoman of the el salvador caucus, I work very strongly with president buckley.
▶ 4:29:43And we also know that scott has proven to be a great facility to house people that are denaturalized and deemed not worthy of U.S. citizenship, and I will be making referrals for those individuals if they are found guilty. Thank you for being here today. Chairman. I yield my time. >> uh, will you yield the last two minutes you had? >> yes, sir. >> so we've talked a lot about governor waltz.
▶ 4:30:08I think you all have done a tremendous job codifying the fact that there's massive amounts of waste in minnesota. This has been taking place for years, and yet nothing has been done. The democrats want to keep spending more money. They're like, why are we cutting off funding temporarily? We need to spend more money, throw more money at the problem. That's not working. The american people aren't going to have it. Thank you all for being here today to talk about this.
▶ 4:30:34I know it takes a lot of courage, and I'm sure you're probably getting threats from from certain people that have benefited from this and, and others that are misinformed by the, you know, some of the the my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, we've talked about waltz. You've stated that waltz has been well aware of this, but we haven't talked a lot about attorney general ellison. Uh, very quickly. Do you all have any anything to add about his knowledge?
▶ 4:31:02Was he aware of this? Go ahead. Mr. >> thank you. I actually had that document in front of me that I wanted to share. So this is from a press release that we actually confronted him with when we had a hearing, and he was in front of us. And the press release is from september 26th of 2022. And this is from a press release from his office. And it says minnesota attorney general keith ellison and his office have been deeply involved for two years in holding, feeding our future accountable.
▶ 4:31:31Now, the tape that we've been talking about as well, where he said he would go to bat for the fraudsters against state agencies, which, by the way, were his clients, happened one year prior to this press release. So if he had been working to oust the fraudsters for feeding our future, he would have known who they were at the time of that meeting. He claimed in front of us that he did not know who they were. That was his reason to meet with them.
▶ 4:32:00And by the way, I would say that he did not meet with him in his official office, which is highly suspect. He met with him at a strip mall, I think something like that. >> okay, well, we've invited him to be at our next hearing on this. If he's not, if he doesn't respond very soon, he will be receiving a subpoena to be here at the next hearing. And we look forward to working with you and any other whistleblowers who want to come forward to ask Mr. ellison specific questions. Now, uh, chair recognizes Mr. gill for unanimous consent.
▶ 4:32:30>> I've got a unanimous consent request to enter into the record. Former legislative auditor. Is the waltz administration finally awake about fraud? >> without objection. So ordered chair now recognizes Mr. are you ready, Mr. langworthy? Are. So. So, uh, Mr. mcguire chair recognizes Mr. maguire from virginia for five minutes. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 4:32:53And thank you to our witnesses for being here today and for your tireless work on your committee to investigate and sound the alarm for fraud in your state after receiving a mandate from the american people and taking office, president trump and this administration have worked tirelessly to root out and put an end to waste, fraud and abuse in our federal government. The recent child care fraud that has come to light in minnesota is just the latest example of why the american people deserve to have oversight, and how their taxpayer dollars are being spent.
▶ 4:33:22Talking with constituents. In my district, I had one guy say to me, he said, john, uh, why? Why should we even pay taxes? The signal that we're getting around our country is that, uh, you do everything right and you pay your taxes, and these folks are buying homes in foreign countries. Uh, these these fraudsters are stealing from the american people. We the people. And one one constituent said, we're not paying taxes. We're paying criminals. We need to know where taxpayer dollars are going.
▶ 4:33:50The 20 million or so illegal aliens that came into our country have come here to break the, uh, the donkey's back. You know, if you want to break a donkey's back, you keep loading it on and loading it on until it's back breaks. And we're sick and tired of the waste, fraud and abuse. For some reason, it seems like our friends on the other side of the aisle partner with the fraudsters and not those people that are identifying the fraud.
▶ 4:34:14You may remember during the summer of love, when they were burning our cities for 80 days instead of, uh, supporting the police. They wanted to defund the police and use their taxpayer dollars to bail them out of jail. So they continue burning our cities. It makes no sense. Recently, we, uh, we got maduro out of his country to stand trial for killing and terrorizing thousands of american citizens. And instead of telling the military what a great job they did, they they had protests around the country for maduro.
▶ 4:34:43And by the way, I had a friend in the airport in buenos aires when it was announced, the entire airport cheered, and people in venezuela said that they've been eating out of trash cans. And family members got into prostitution because their family was starved. And they're trying to survive. As a navy seal veteran, I served in venezuela during the 90s, and it was one of the most prosperous, strongest economic countries, safest places in south america. And they've ruined it. Uh, so anyway, the people are sick and tired of the waste, fraud and abuse.
▶ 4:35:11In reference to the most recent child care fraud scandal coming to light, uh, spokesperson for governor waltz said the governor has worked for years to crack down on fraud and ask the state legislature for more authority to take congressional action. Uh, he has strengthened oversight. Miss robinson, Mr. hudson and Mr. bharara, as members of the fraud protection, prevention and state agency and oversight committee. Do you agree that governor waltz has strengthened oversight in the state of minnesota? Yes or no?
▶ 4:35:41>> no. He belatedly took action this fall because of the enormous pressure that is coming to bear. But his agency's always had the authority that he trumpeted. Now. >> no, he simplified the problem by pretending that you can solve it by appointing somebody to look at it. This needs systemic reform. >> he absolutely shredded oversight simply. >> yeah, I heard the testimony that it was career suicide to speak up.
▶ 4:36:06But, miss robinson, you've been very vocal about the mistreatment of whistleblowers by governor waltz. Can you speak to some of the ways that governor waltz and his administration have retaliated against whistleblowers? >> yes, I've met with many whistleblowers who have spoken about how they were, uh, told that they would be demoted or reassigned. I've, I know of people who were reassigned.
▶ 4:36:26We also know that they were surveilled in their place of work when people thought they might be the the, quote, leaker, their email and their chat functions were surveilled electronically for words like fraud or whistleblower or compliance or overbilling. So they are under a great deal of stress in the department of human services. And we are grateful for the whistleblowers who have spoken out to us.
▶ 4:36:53>> so based on your all of your knowledge about this scandal or this fraud in minnesota, I think it's the tip of the iceberg. We're like $37 trillion in debt. And now I don't know what it is about somali, but apparently they're using that for somali daycare centers in washington state now. And it's come to light that there are some daycare center fraud in ohio as well, associated with somali. So I think we're just the tip of the iceberg. And there's waste, fraud and abuse everywhere and maybe a big chunk of our national debt comes from waste, fraud and abuse. So I don't care if it's a red state or blue state.
▶ 4:37:23Uh, we need to we need to have oversight. We need to protect the american people's taxpayer dollars, the child care fraud brought in by brought to light by nick shirley is just the latest scandal. In 2022, federal prosecutors charged 47 defendants, majority of whom were from the minnesota somali community, for the role they played in, uh, feeding our future. Are they still in power in minnesota? >> the democrats. >> know the feeding our future. What's going on with them now?
▶ 4:37:53>> so that program was a covid era child nutrition program, and that is over. But there's ongoing child nutrition programs that could be, um, fraudulent. So I think they're still working their way through the feeding our future case. But I think there will be need for ongoing oversight of child nutrition programs. >> I yield back. Thank you. >> chair now recognizes Mr. langworthy from buffalo, new york. Okay.
▶ 4:38:17Uh, chair recognizes, uh, we will go to Mr. is Mr. Mr. stauber, are you ready? Prepared or or miss fischbach? >> yeah. Mr. um, representative fischbach prior to me. Thank you. >> okay, chair. Recognize we're going to get to our waivers, and we may have a few more that will will come in. We have a few more. Republicans haven't asked questions yet, but, uh, Mr. fischbach, you. >> thank you very much, Mr. chair.
▶ 4:38:46And before I begin my remarks, I want to enter into the record an email shared by dhs whistleblowers. The email was written by a senior dhs official and sent to other dhs leaders. In the email, the dhs official talks about using military intelligence resources to track down whistleblowers exact location. Um, and this issue, and I believe this email was alluded to by representative rarick in her testimony. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you so much.
▶ 4:39:12And I have one more, and I ask for unanimous consent to enter into the record. Uh, an article titled minnesota government whistleblowers claim they were electronically surveilled, had promotions denied in the new york post dated january 3rd, 20. >> without objection, so ordered. >> thank you, Mr. chair. And first, I would like to say thank you, Mr. chair, for allowing us to wave on. This is an incredibly important issue in our state and across the country. Um, and it's something that comes up, um, all the time when we're out in the district.
▶ 4:39:42And so I think and I think, um, all of the legislators for being here, um, and for all of your work that you do, um, in order to expose this and dig into it and really figure out what's going on. And I think it was Mr. burlinson who asked if we were embarrassed. Um, but I, I'm not embarrassed to be from minnesota. What I am is really sad that this is happening. And this is what minnesota is, is, is known for now, um, this horrible fraud because there's wonderful things that minnesota does have to offer.
▶ 4:40:09And so as a lifelong minnesotan, it makes me sad that this is what we're having to talk about. Um, and while some may want to downplay this fraud, um, I want to be clear. This is an explicit, explicit, and egregious cover up on the theft of taxpayer dollars and hundreds of millions stolen from programs intended to help feed children, provide housing, provide child care, even help individuals with autism.
▶ 4:40:35And we also have reports that some of this funding is going to terrorist organizations like was mentioned mentioned earlier. Um, democrats have been in charge of in minnesota for years, and I was in the minnesota legislature. I know, um, and they specifically wrote and passed legislation that reduced oversight when handing out federal funds.
▶ 4:40:57Democrats seized on covid, in particular, to yank back fraud protections just so that they could hand out money as fast as possible. That was the whole thing. That was the mantra during covid, as we've got to get it out fast so we can't have all these regulations and, um, and checks and balances on them. Um, unfortunately though, this problem isn't new. And it wasn't just from covid. Um, in minnesota, whistleblowers report that they've been making reports for years.
▶ 4:41:26The democrat leadership at the state level in minnesota has been actively suppressing whistleblowers. And I think some of some of the testimony that you've all given today is pointing that out. Um, and that's not not an opinion. It is fact. It's fact. Um, so I'm going to ask maybe we're going to go over some of this a little once again, but I want to make sure that everybody understands that, that there's a clear answer. Representative rarick, the tweet, uh, where did my sign go? I have a sign.
▶ 4:42:03Maybe we don't. Um, but there's an account, um, that is working. That is, I believe, from the whistleblowers. And I just wanted to note. There we go. Thank you. Um, this behind me is, uh, the account. Is it run by one whistleblower? >> um, madam congressman, no, it actually is comprised of over a thousand state employees across multiple state agencies. >> so this is not just a couple of people.
▶ 4:42:32This is a lot, a lot of people bringing this to light. Um, and were the whistleblowers ever made to feel unsafe on their attempts to report fraud? >> yes, absolutely. I can give you two quotes that they have in the seven page document that was submitted for the this committee hearing, two things that they said is think about your home. And what if you lose your job? These are things said to whistleblowers. Second thing was we need information about where your kids go to school and where their bus stops are.
▶ 4:43:03>> and representative, this is just incredible stuff. And I know you mentioned it before, but I do think it it it it's worth repeating because we had whistleblowers. This could have been happening. But there has been democrat administration after democrat administration including walls and including and the newer they have not they have not addressed these things and they have not said, hey, whistleblowers, we believe you and we're going to do something about it. And so that's the concern.
▶ 4:43:30Um, and I just want to I am I'm running low on time, but I wanted to, um, just ask representative robinson. I'm sorry, Mr. hudson, but you've had some really good, uh, good moments today, so I'll go to representative robinson. Um, uh, as chair of the of the committee. Um, if these claims of retaliatory action are true, then it violates the law. So if these claims are true, then a state agency is violating our own state whistleblowers laws. Is that correct?
▶ 4:44:00>> so the whistle. >> sorry. So the whistleblower statute is for civil penalties. There is no criminal penalty for whistleblower retaliation in statute currently. But we are looking at that for the next session. But that's why when people say, why haven't these people who've, um, retaliated against the whistleblowers been prosecuted, it's because there is no criminal penalty in statute. >> has there been anything by the attorney general's office?
▶ 4:44:26And this is maybe a question that I'll ask if he's if he's comes anything by the attorney general's office that would, um, that would deal with that. >> no, we we passed a law this session to expand whistleblower protection because prior to this session, they could only report up through their supervisor or to the state attorney general. And when they did, they were either ghosted or they were retaliated against. So we expanded it. So now they can report to legislators and they can report to law enforcement.
▶ 4:44:52And that's how we got this just deluge of whistleblower reports, because now they have somewhere safe to report. >> and you have been very indulgent. And I'll just say, after 15 years of democrat administration in minnesota, this massive fraud is coming to an end because we are going to get to it. And I appreciate the work that you have done on your committee, and we will do whatever we can to to continue to bring it to light and prosecute those folks involved. So thank you very much, Mr. chair. I thank you very much. >> thank you, Mr. chair. >> unanimous consent.
▶ 4:45:23>> who said that? Oh, yeah. Mr. bell. >> uh, Mr. chair, ask. >> unanimous consent to enter into the record this may 2025, report from the senate committee on homeland security and government affairs entitled undermining the watchdogs. The 19 independent inspectors generals fired by president trump uncovered billions in fraud, waste and abuse. >> without objection. So ordered. Alright, our next minnesota wave on is Mr. fenstad from minnesota.
▶ 4:45:53>> thank you, chairman kummer. Uh, thank you for holding this important hearing today. And thank you to our great minnesota legislators for being here. God bless you and your work. Uh, it's been so needed, and you have amplified and created such a voice and opportunity for us to get to the bottom of this. So thank you. Governor walz. Incompetence has put a spotlight on our state by enabling rampant fraud across federally funded, state administered programs. And for those that aren't from minnesota, in in minnesota, the democrat party goes by the dfl democrat farmer labor.
▶ 4:46:22Well, I'll tell you what. They kicked the farmer out a long time ago. And that f now stands for fraud. And that is wholly owned by governor walz, lieutenant governor flanagan. And it's and it's on them and it will be on them forever. Minnesota taxpayers have had more than $9 billion in counting taken from their pockets. Yet the walls administration has failed to take meaningful action to stop this.
▶ 4:46:45Since feeding our future scandal came to light, not a single individual responsible for ensuring accountability to these federally funded programs has been fired. Not a single. This would not stand a second in the private sector. I don't care if you're a bank ceo. I don't care if you're a greeter at walmart. You would not have your job.
▶ 4:47:04With the incompetence that governor walz has displayed in minnesota since I was first elected in 2022, I've joined my republican colleagues in the congressional delegation, sending numerous letters to governor walz and his administration to expose the lawlessness occurring in our state. With no response. The minnesota state legislators here testifying have been on the front lines working to combat this failure and their and governor walz failure to responsibly steward over the $9 billion in taxpayer money.
▶ 4:47:32I thank you for appearing here today. Uh, with that being said, you know, we're talking about programs, housing stabilization, daycare, autism centers, feeding our future. I mean, these are all compassionate, good minnesota values. We want to take care of our neighbors in need. If our neighbors, uh, if they're if they're struggling to find, uh, the amount of money to put food on their table, we will take the shirt off our back to help our neighbors in need. These fraudsters preyed on the goodwill of minnesotans.
▶ 4:48:02Minnesota is minnesota nice. And these fraudsters knew it. And they took advantage of us. So I'm going to start with you, representative rarick. Thank you again for your leadership during your tenure in minnesota state government. How long have you been working on this issue and what are some of the the craziest, most egregious things that you've seen, uh, really, that have been identified by the, uh, incompetency of our ceo, governor of our state? >> right.
▶ 4:48:30So I was elected in 2013, started serving then, and I literally have heard about fraud since 2013. And I'll tell you every time that it was raised in committee by myself or my colleagues, uh, we were essentially called racist and islamophobic or that the fraud really wasn't happening. I remember with the daycare fraud when there was, um, credible allegations that it was $100 million back in 13, 14, 15 somewhere in there.
▶ 4:48:56Um, they prosecuted closer to 5 to 10 million. And so instead of the 100 million, that was what was prosecuted. And so democrats would say, well, it's really not it's really not 100 million. It's really just a couple.
▶ 4:49:10Um, and so I know that we had a gentleman behind us come and testify in front of us, and he had a tracker, and they spent the entire time besmirching his good character as opposed to actually talking about the fraud. And that's what we've experienced. Yeah, nonstop every day. >> so thank you for that, uh, testimony. But also thank you for for being strong because the politics of intimidation, name calling, race baiting, uh, they want us to shut up.
▶ 4:49:38They want this fraud to continue. And so thank you for being strong. You know, I represent 750,000 of our neighbors in southern minnesota. It's god's country down there. And, you know, I hear from my neighbors that the democrat control and what it's done to decimate our daycare industry, the affordability, the access. We just struggle with daycare in southern minnesota. And I can't help but think that, wow, $9 billion sure would go a long ways to help our neighbors in southern minnesota. You know, the walls administration has done crazy things.
▶ 4:50:08They've weaponized the administration. Heck, we have we have daycares in southern minnesota getting fined for leaving chapstick on their office desk. They can find the time to do that, but they can't find the $9 billion. Ridiculous. Uh, representative robyn's, uh, the democrats, uh, at the state and federal level.
▶ 4:50:28So we're talking everyone from angie craig ilhan omar, uh, tina smith, amy klobuchar, tim walz, lieutenant governor flanagan, have they helped at all in your committee work? Have they been a part of it? Have they said, hey, we want to help try to get rid of this fraud? >> no, I don't know of any democrats who have called out the walz administration for their absolute failure to protect taxpayer dollars in our vulnerable citizens.
▶ 4:50:55>> so this is just unbelievable to me that we cannot, in the face of this horrific fraud and crime that's going on. We can't for a brief moment, rip the r and the d off our sweatshirt and put the usa on and say, enough is enough. And so what you're doing and by being here today, help helping us understand the details and the level of fraud in minnesota is so important. We can't thank you enough. And, chairman comer, we stand ready to help you in this committee however we can to put an end to this.
▶ 4:51:26>> we're serious about it, and we want to work with you. Chair recognizes Mr. langworthy from buffalo. >> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman. And thank you for putting this hearing together so promptly after all of this fraud was unveiled. Uh, I'm not going to get into belaboring all the facts that have been revealed here already today. Uh, but, representative robbins, how long do you believe that this fraud was allowed to operate in minnesota before anyone in state government actually decided to act? >> well, we've had all this going on since 2014, at least.
▶ 4:51:58And, uh, the walls administration's been in office seven years, and they very belatedly took a few actions this fall. So they they only came to the table to help pause program and have required audits, uh, because of the public pressure. >> so we're looking at fraud going back 11 years at this point in untold sums of money. Uh, and with the years that this has gone on, uh, who in your mind knew about this fraud? And who do you think looked the other way? >> I think everybody in minnesota knew about it.
▶ 4:52:28There's been so many great local investigative, journalistic stories on this. And I think the governor, the lieutenant governor, the attorney general and all of the agency heads have looked the other way. >> I really want to salute you and your colleagues that were on the front end of this, trying to get people to pay attention to this.
▶ 4:52:45And when when you raised attention to this fraud, long before nick shirley's outstanding reporting, uh, governor walz and attorney general ellison actually refused to take your claims seriously, isn't that correct? >> yes. We gave them a list in february of last year of 72 child care centers we thought were problematic. That should be investigated. And to my knowledge, they didn't do anything with the list we provided. >> no. You know, as an elected official, you know, you obviously are out in the community.
▶ 4:53:15Is this blatant fraud something that people on the street are talking about. >> all the time? They're furious. >> and they know it. It's in plain sight. Everyone knows what's going on, but no one will act well. >> we're doing our best to act as the committee. >> you are. But the people that are actually in power, you know, I come from new york, so I understand what blue state livin's all about. Uh, but, uh, I it's infuriating because we see the same thing in our home state.
▶ 4:53:43And when you have people in power that refuse to do the right thing, even though the the problem is an obvious one. Uh, it's it's really disheartening to the constituents and the taxpayers, the hard working men and women paying the bills. Um, and, representative robbins, do you think that there was a political calculation that was made by the people that turned a blind eye, uh, that it was more beneficial for them to allow and kind of green light the fraud?
▶ 4:54:08Uh, or were they afraid of political consequences if they actually did something about that from a constituency of somalis? >> yes. I think they chose to protect the fraudsters and the criminals over the whistleblowers and the taxpayers because, as the somali investigator said, that feckless fear they had feckless fear from the establishment politicians and state agencies when they were confronted with charges of racism and islamophobic.
▶ 4:54:36So they were afraid of being called racist or islamophobic, the democrat politicians and standing up to their base. So they, um, just turned a blind eye. >> and would this, you know, somali population, this is part of the democrat party's base at this point in minnesota. Isn't that correct? >> largely. >> largely so. So they were basically renting a constituency through the fraud at the expense of the taxpayer. That's wild.
▶ 4:55:05Uh, you don't have to answer that. I think that we all know the answer to that. And, representative hudson, uh, there is a child care affordability crisis right now, and young families in my district and across the country are making really tough choices to afford quality care. What impact is this fraud had on waitlists and staffing and simple, uh, simply making resources available for legitimate child care centers in your constituency? >> well, as Mr.
▶ 4:55:30Finstad pointed out, in minnesota, there's been a long standing attack upon family based child care where folks would run businesses out of their homes. And when you're out out of the city, that's usually the type of child care you would have access to. And so in a climate where there's already been, um, reductions in the availability of people to be able to receive child care, the again, going back to the firefighter putting out the fire analogy.
▶ 4:55:55Yeah, it causes damage with the water, but it's necessary in this time because even though it hurts because of the blaze that was allowed to explode. >> it's amazing. This this $9 billion in fraud went uninvestigated ignored, swept aside for years. Not a single rogue bureaucrat, but by every democrat official in the state of minnesota who presented with clear, damning evidence, chose to look the other way blindly.
▶ 4:56:24I cannot wait to see tim walz and keith ellison in those seats, uh, where you're sitting right now. Uh, but to everyone here, we cannot ignore who truly benefited from this failure beyond the perpetrators of the fraud. And as governor tim walz and the entire democratic leadership throughout a constituency votes that they bought by looking the other way and letting this happen, they effectively greenlit this theft of billions of dollars in taxpayer money through years of willful ignorance in every single american taxpayer deserves full
▶ 4:56:56Accountability because this isn't limited to just minnesota. We have a lot of other states that start to look at. I mean, all the big blue handout states, I live in one of them. We have to open the the pandora's box here and find out how much money has been siphoned off from america's taxpayers. I yield back, Mr. chairman. >> well, say a chair recognizes congressman jack from georgia. >> I also want to echo my support for congressman langworthy's remarks. Certainly associate myself with them. It is it is all political. And it's very unfortunate.
▶ 4:57:25Um, I want to thank the witnesses for testifying today. I also like to thank our chairman for convening this hearing so expeditiously. Less than two weeks have passed since the nation was, um, was was caught, uh, in this just horrible, horrible crisis watching this unfold. And here we are with action today. Um, we've talked a lot about the 9 billion in fraud. I like quantifying it because, you know, more often than not, we throw around the biggest numbers here in washington, and sometimes it's hard to, um, sometimes it's hard to quantify it.
▶ 4:57:52It takes about a second to kind of dollar bill. And that's 9,000,000,000 seconds, means that if we start counting in 1741, 285 years ago, we would just now be finishing $9 billion worth of accounts. So take that data point to heart. But I want to concentrate my line of questioning today, um, on the whistleblowers. And I know a lot has been discussed. Uh, but as we end the near the end of this hearing, I want to start with representative rarick.
▶ 4:58:18And it's our understanding, as has been discussed today, the department of human services whistleblowers claim that they have faced retaliation from senior minnesota department of human services officials, including appointees, on behalf of governor walz. And I just want you to explain to us again how these administrators have retaliated against whistleblowers. >> right. So the threats were pretty intense. And as I've said, they their jobs were threatened. They had strange questions demanding answers about where their children went to school, where their bus stops were.
▶ 4:58:48Um, they were told that, uh, if you don't do what we tell you to do or not do what we tell you to do, you'll lose your job. You'll lose that job, um, with cause. Which means the minnesota, that you don't get unemployment insurance. You also could lose your retirement plan. Um, also, you'd be blacklisted off of all state agencies. And I would note that that also includes hennepin and ramsey counties, our biggest counties, because they are democrat run, um, and maybe even the university of minnesota.
▶ 4:59:16I'm going to throw that into probably some of our biggest cities like rochester, duluth, that are very, uh, democrat leaning. So it's a very vast threat. Um, they've also threatened them with sort of a vague, vague military intelligence. So there was one.
▶ 4:59:34I have the email right here that was just submitted, I believe, by congresswoman fischbach, and it says things like, um, I'm, I would like to use my former colleagues in the army to locate where you are using your ip address, and I don't have that, he says. I don't have that technology anymore, but I can get it in a heartbeat. So there were there were vague threats, and I believe there was more threats beyond that. But it was very expansive threats. >> well, I'm glad you mentioned that. I actually wanted to talk about that.
▶ 5:00:02Um, as I understand it, it was the and I think it's to your point, she entered into the record, but the interim deputy assistant commissioner of operations for the folks watching at home, the department of human services, minnesota, alleged allegedly, uh, was was trying to use a contact in the military during the biden administration to to track whistleblowers whereabouts, uh, I presume this is illegal under minnesota law, but would love for you to indulge us as to whether or not it is. >> you know, I don't know for sure if it's illegal in minnesota. If it's not, it certainly should be.
▶ 5:00:31I think most of what happened to the whistleblowers is illegal. Um, but the the control over the state, the control over the largest counties, that control over some of our largest cities is controlled by democrats. And so this was allowed to continue. >> and to the best of your knowledge, whether it be governor dayton or governor pawlenty, before, were whistleblowers treated in such a manner under those administrations, or is this unique to the walz administration?
▶ 5:00:58>> I don't have any reports, particularly through the pawlenty administration. I know that fraud was beginning to be uncovered at the very tail end of his administration, but mostly under democrat rule. But I don't know of this kind of retaliation in any other administration besides the walz administration. >> thank you for for sharing that with us. And I just want to close out, um, you know, some minnesota officials claim they had no knowledge of this fraud. Just found out about it, which I think we all know is demonstrably false.
▶ 5:01:26But I'm just curious, could you elaborate for this committee on the many ways by which governor walz could have been made aware of this? I mean, he certainly was made aware of this, turned a blind eye. I just want to make sure that we understand as a committee the many methods by which he was informed. >> so there were multitude of legislative auditor reports, so much so that I had read into the record what jim nobles, the last legislative auditor before judy randall, he had been the legislative auditor for 38 years.
▶ 5:01:54And he was so disgusted by the actions of of governor walz that he wrote in a couple comments in the star tribune, saying that they literally just needed to do basic financial controls. And it's it's behooving to him or confounding to him, I should say, as to why they didn't. So he is a very much a nonpartisan, nonpolitical person, and he was shocked at what he found. >> well, I want to thank all of our witnesses for testimony today. Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back.
▶ 5:02:24And I believe our last questioner is our last wave on from minnesota. Representative stauber. >> thank you very much, Mr. chair. And, uh, after all the, um, after all the conversations today, you wonder why the department of justice can't get the voter rolls out of minnesota, and the secretary of ag can't get the snap benefits from minnesota to make sure there's no fraud. Mr. chairman, thank you very much for holding this hearing.
▶ 5:02:50And I also want to thank our witnesses whose years of hard work in minnesota and are exposing these revelations are finally garnering the national attention that they deserve. And finally, I want to thank the numerous whistleblowers who are exposing tim walz's failures as governor. As we have heard today, these brave men and women are risking their careers to reveal the truth. While tim walz is actively attempting to threaten and suppress them. I'm here to say it won't work, and we stand with the whistleblowers.
▶ 5:03:19I want to shift gears and ask you about minnesota's new paid family leave program that the governor has been touting during this fraud scandal. Representative rarick, under the paid family leave program in minnesota. Who can I take leave or care for? And is it limited to family or dependents? >> uh, thank you, congressman stauber. No, it is not limited to just family. One would think that it was.
▶ 5:03:44But there is something that the democrats built into the law that said, if I set up an expectation of care with no documentation, by the way, no attestation, absolutely no documentation, then that is good enough in minnesota. >> so I could take care of somebody. That's just a friend of mine. >> congressman. Absolutely. >> uh.
▶ 5:04:08So it doesn't matter if they're related, if I've had a past relationship or closer, I can just go and ask my or tell my employer I'm leaving for 12 weeks or eight weeks and get 90% of my pay and take care of that person. Right. >> you could you could do that. Yes. And so it's a sliding scale. It's not all the people would get 90%, but the vast majority, I believe depending on your salary would get 90%.
▶ 5:04:38And yes, you could go take care of anybody because there is no documentation. >> what kind of proof of care would I have to provide to the state to demonstrate that I am actually taking care of you during my, uh, paid family leave? >> yeah, there's absolutely no documentation, so you have to provide and prove absolutely nothing. >> so if I don't show up and take care of who I say I'm taking care of, nothing's going to happen to me. >> that's correct. You could go to puerto rico. You could go to, uh, istanbul. It doesn't matter where you go or what you do.
▶ 5:05:07There's no requirement to document. >> so I can say that I'm just caring for anyone. And the state of minnesota would require my boss to give me a 12 week vacation without any proof. >> that is exactly how the democrats wrote that law. That's correct. >> is a licensed american doctor required to certify that this person needs my immediate and uninterrupted care? >> so the people, the medical professionals is a very, very broad category.
▶ 5:05:36And no, they do not have to be an american midwife, doctor, chiropractor, uh, orthopedic surgeon. None of those things. It can be in any country. >> does the state require the person I'm claiming to care for to be present in minnesota, or even in the united states of america? >> no, congressman, that person could be anywhere. >> somalia. >> absolutely.
▶ 5:05:57>> so you're telling me I can get a foreign doctor without an american license to just check a box, and I get a state mandated paid vacation to somalia or any other country? Is that correct? >> that is how the law was written by democrats in minnesota. Yes. >> this is incredibly concerning with with what little time I have left. I want to open this up to the entire panel. Is there anything else you would like to address regarding the paid family leave program?
▶ 5:06:27And I'll start with representative robbins. >> thank you. We always talk about how important it is to stop fraud on the front end. So our committee held a hearing on this paid family leave law that took effect january 1st back in november. And we grilled the department of employment and economic development, trying to get them to shore up some of these definitions, trying to put some guardrails on this program. And they just assured us over and over they've got it covered. There won't be any fraud. Don't worry about it.
▶ 5:06:54But I've already had whistleblower reports since the program started january 1st of fraud. So we're going to have to get a handle on this. And I think it's the next fraud frontier in minnesota. >> uh, um, representative hudson, anything you'd like to add on the paid family leave program in minnesota? >> just to put the points that representative rarick put as concisely as possible? It is it is humorous, but true that you could quite literally have a witch doctor approve your vacation to somalia.
▶ 5:07:22That's how loose the rules are written. >> I, uh, I'm listen, I'm proud to be from minnesota. I was born, raised and living in minnesota, raising my family there. This is going to stop and you folks are at the front of it. Minnesotans have had enough. We're hard working people. We will not allow our tax dollars to go to fraud. And I commend that. The three of you and other folks back in minnesota that want to stop this.
▶ 5:07:51And, mister chair, I yield back. >> gentleman yields. >> I seek recognition to make a motion for a subpoena. >> uh, state your state your motion. >> I would like to make a motion to subpoena the department of homeland security for all documents and footage related to the murder of a woman by ice that took place in minneapolis, minnesota. Today. >> a motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance till the end of today's hearing. And we will prepare to close.
▶ 5:08:19Now, that concludes all of our questions. I, uh, in closing, I want to, uh, again, thank our witnesses for being here today. Welcome to the house oversight committee. Uh, this was a pretty cordial committee hearing for us. So, uh, we and very important, uh, before we adjourn, I want to yield to ranking member garcia for his closing remarks. And then I will give my closing remarks. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Just before I want to we we close.
▶ 5:08:49I just also want to mention the news of this horrific killing in minneapolis, minnesota. We're talking about minnesota right now. This was a killing by an ice agent. There are videos that are now online. There's testimony that's being, uh, brought to light. It's horrific. I encourage folks to watch those videos and see what's happened for themselves. And I'm hopeful that this committee investigates this incident and that we have full accountability. So I want to thank representative pressley, uh, for, uh, for her motion.
▶ 5:09:17Now, we've heard a lot today, uh, and particularly a lot of bigoted smears against an entire community. Now, some republican members of this committee said or implied that somehow all somalis are now suspected fraudsters or terrorists. Now, somali americans are overwhelmingly us citizens with the same rights as any member of this committee. And the rest, and a vast majority of them, are just hard working folks who are trying to take care of their families and playing by the rules.
▶ 5:09:45And we should be clear that if we want to investigate fraud, we should start by investigating 1600 pennsylvania. We all know that fraud is a betrayal of the public's trust, and democrats agree that we must be rigorous in conducting oversight wherever it exists. But conducting rigorous oversight does not somehow exclude the president or the administration or the doj and what's happening there, or the rampant crimes that are happening right now all across other agencies.
▶ 5:10:13We know that holding fraudsters accountable does not mean granting them full and unconditional presidential pardons, because they are wealthy supporters of the president. President trump last year gave out 25 get out of jail free cards from fraudsters alone 25. He pardoned them from paying back more than $1 billion to their victims. This is wrong and it's un-american. We have to make sure that victims of fraud are not forced to suffer anymore.
▶ 5:10:42And we also know that cutting off childcare and family support for thousands of innocent families is not the way to protect victims. In fact, it punishes victims. It punishes victims. These attacks are harming parents, children and childcare providers as we speak. Many childcare providers, not just in minnesota but across the country, are receiving death threats. Childcare centers have been vandalized and the children's information has been stolen.
▶ 5:11:07In some cases, childcare providers and states across the country have reported that they will have to close if they lose federal funding. Parents are saying they have to quit their jobs because they will no longer be able to have childcare for their families, and while they're at work, these cuts will make it harder for families to put food on the table. As grocery costs continue to increase, we should be protecting those families and children who are being hurt by all of this.
▶ 5:11:34Let's go after the big fraud in our government, and that includes the fraud and corruption at the white house. And with that, I yield back. >> the ranking member yields. Member yields back. And I will conclude by saying today we have heard about the shocking, rampant and long ongoing fraud in minnesota's social service programs. This fraud is shocked and outraged the american people, and rightfully so.
▶ 5:11:57The scale of this fraud is not just something we've seen before, and I'm pretty confident this is just the tip of the iceberg. The trump administration has taken a whole of government approach to rooting out fraud. The trump administration has already uncovered at least $9 billion in fraud. These criminals have stolen taxpayer dollars from all americans to fund lavish cars, homes and vacations here in the us and abroad.
▶ 5:12:24Some of this stolen money is even allegedly going overseas to support terrorists. Our witnesses, the chairwoman and two members of the minnesota house of representatives fraud prevention and state agency oversight policy committee have been sounding the alarm on this fraud for years. Democrats have attempted to distract the american people from this widespread fraud and accused investigators of racism.
▶ 5:12:48This should not be a partizan issue, but they clearly do not take this issue seriously. Either they don't take fraud seriously or they just don't care. It's one or the other. The most vulnerable are suffering as a result. These programs are meant to feed needy kids, provide services to autistic children, house low income and disabled americans, and provide health care to vulnerable medicaid recipients.
▶ 5:13:17The waltz administration has kept this money flowing for years, oftentimes behind closed doors. When whistleblowers came forward about this fraud, the waltz administration retaliated against employees who warned and alerted the administration to the fraud occurring within these social programs. They're supposed to be checks and balances in our system to prevent this, both on the federal and state levels.
▶ 5:13:43Every agency that lost hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars has well paid staff that are supposed to prevent this. That's their job. They're inspectors general. That's their job. They have huge staff. We have jurisdiction over the ig's. Many have failed, and they need to be held accountable.
▶ 5:14:08Now, I want to close by saying we've had four minnesota republicans to waive on this committee. If there was a committee hearing about fraud in kentucky and I wasn't on the committee, I would want to waive on the committee. But not a single democrat requested to waive on the committee from the state of minnesota. And there is one member of the minnesota delegation, uh, representative omar, who, coincidentally, is of somali descent. Uh, did not request to be in this hearing.
▶ 5:14:39I will publicly invite her to come to the next hearing, and she doesn't have to, but she can request to be waived on and I will gladly grant that request. Now, I'm doing this motion on.
▶ 5:14:53I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record, an application unsealed by the united states district court for the district of minnesota on december 18th, 2025 for law enforcement to execute a search warrant on ultimate home health services, llc for defrauding minnesota's independent community supports medicaid program. This. This fraudulent providers negligence resulted in the death of a man who suffered from severe mental health fitness.
▶ 5:15:21I referenced this tragedy in my opening statement. We're not going to this, isn't it? This is just the beginning. We want to again, thank you for being here. We're going to work with you to see that these federal funds go to people in minnesota who they're supposed to go to. I support president trump putting a halt on all federal funding to these, uh, government social programs in minnesota until we get a handle on where this is going.
▶ 5:15:53And thank you all for doing that. We will work with you and do everything we can to hold people accountable and to stop the fraud and get the backs of the american taxpayers. Pursuant to the previous order, the chair declares the committee in recess, subject to the call of the chair. We plan to reconvene at 4 p.m. The committee now stands in recess and the witnesses may be excused. Thank you all.
▶ 5:57:42Test, test, test. >> congressman conrad, it was kind of. >> a mic test. Mic test. One, two, three. Mic test. You good? >> yeah.
▶ 6:31:31I know we have votes very quickly on the house floor. If we don't get this done, we're going to have to come back and vote after the after the floor votes, whatever, however long that lasts. So the first motion is the motion to appeal to to subpoena neville singham. It's now brought under consideration. Does any member wish to speak on the motion? >> Mr. chairman, I have an amendment to the motion. >> thank you. Your amendment. >> thank you.
▶ 6:32:00Pursuant to clause two, k six of house rule 11, the committee shall subpoena lex wexner to sit for a deposition before the house committee on oversight and government reform. >> uh, les wexner is the funding mechanism for epstein. Do it. >> and I'd like to recognize to explain the amendment briefly. >> okay. Uh, explain your amendment. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, this is an amendment, of course, to representative luna's motion.
▶ 6:32:30Lex wexner is a long time benefactor of jeffrey epstein, and at one point was epstein's only documented client. Maria farmer was abused in a house attached to wexner's, ohio property and guarded by wexner security staff. Virginia giuffre was named wexner in a deposition as one of the men she was trafficked to. Wexner also paid for epstein's home in new york city.
▶ 6:32:50There is probably no one more important as it relates to to the financing and the work of this investigation with which both sides of the aisle are interested in have voted to move forward. That ensuring that we bring Mr. wexner in to come and be deposed by this committee. Public reporting has documented their long standing ties. He should answer our questions in a nonpartizan way to get the truth to the epstein investigation. And that is the motion. >> would you?
▶ 6:33:21>> let's see. So, uh, I guess we're going to debate the amendment to the motion. Uh. Would you yield to a question? Sure. We are serious about the epstein investigation, and I think you've seen a lot of our members stand up and and make it very clear they want to get to the bottom of everything. Nobody wants to do it more than I do. We also want to hear from bill clinton. And you all vote.
▶ 6:33:53We voted a bipartisan manner to subpoena bill clinton, but we haven't gotten confirmation for, uh, president clinton to come in for a, uh, a transcribed interview or or now a deposition. So we do you all are you all going to help us try to get clinton in? I figure you guys, I've been I've been. >> I've been very clear. And I think the committee agrees that we're willing to talk to anyone, including the former president, if they have information regarding the epstein investigation.
▶ 6:34:20And so the motion in front of us right now is on lex, lex wexner, who is who is central to the epstein investigation and probably knows more than anyone else about the financing and has been named by survivors. So that is in addition to loona's motion, which if part of the amendment, we can certainly, uh, take that vote. >> okay. >> uh, any other discussion on the garcia amendment, miss stansbury? >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I just want to echo my support for this subpoena and say two things.
▶ 6:34:50One, this is not a quid pro quo. This is an investigation. And so we will subpoena and support subpoenas for any coconspirator and anyone who has evidence that's important in this case. Secondly, I want to note that this individual is actually named in the department of justice emails that were released in the partial release by the administration as one of the coconspirators that department of justice was investigating and was actually named. And finally, I just want to say this, Mr.
▶ 6:35:20Chairman, the department of justice has released, as we understand it, only 1% of the files in their possession. And I think we really want to know why this committee is not demanding the doj come in front of us immediately to account for this. And with that, I yield back. >> uh, any other, uh, miss lena, you your request to speak on the garcia amendment to your motion? >> um, I think that this is a sound motion for subpoena because les wexner has been named by victims.
▶ 6:35:48Um, and also, too, is in a number of documentaries. But I would like to at least offer my opinion and refute what miss stansbury said regarding some of the files that have been released. There have been thousands of files released. Um, so much so that, yes, there have been redactions, but most of the redactions, to my knowledge, have been pertaining to either csam materials and or, um, victim information. I know that in one instance, there was potentially a breach of that of which the doj immediately corrected.
▶ 6:36:15Um, but we have also been working at least my office has with the department of justice to make sure that victims have received their direct information. So please understand, at least from my perspective, that it is not our opinion that there have been, um, a hold back. I do know that the documents are on a rolling basis as well, similar to the other declassified files. However, aside from that, I do support garcia's amendment and I would encourage my colleagues to do so. >> all right.
▶ 6:36:39Any other discussion on the garcia amendment seeing none, all those in favor of the amendment of the garcia amendment to the motion signify by saying, I. >> I, I. >> all those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair. The ayes have it and the amendment is agreed to. >> we want a recorded vote. >> no, no. >> actually no we don't. >> okay. So the uh.
▶ 6:37:04>> now the the debate is on the, uh, does any member wish to speak on the luna motion, as amended, representative luna? >> um, just so everyone is tracking neville, seeing him was referred to the department of justice, I believe, for fara violations by then senator rubio when he served on, um, the senate foreign intelligence or senate intelligence committee.
▶ 6:37:27Neville, seeing him, regardless of what you might feel about your colleagues, has been a mechanism and funding arm of the chinese communist party. He's not a registered agent by fara and has been connected to a number of riots to include the anti-ice riots being funded in los angeles, as well as a group that was tied to and being investigated for the assassination of charlie kirk, known as, um, I think it was, uh, the, uh, group of socialism and liberation.
▶ 6:37:54And then also to, um, is has been avoiding our, our requests for him to come bring information to congress. He is definitely someone that is anti-american and ideology. And regardless of where you might stand, even on topics like israel versus palestine, is funding certain groups that actually sow discord in this country with no, uh, no efforts to actually resolve the issues, only to get us to fight one another.
▶ 6:38:17So I would encourage you all, at least if you don't politically agree with one another, to at least respect the fact that he is a known foreign agent to china, has not been registered as such, has been made to um fund rights, and has been known to be the result of many of our own americans being targeted with violence. And as a result of that, I do think that he should face subpoena in the event that he's not subpoenaed or that he does not answer the subpoena, I will be making a motion for inherent contempt, and I encourage my colleagues to support this motion.
▶ 6:38:49>> luna yields back. Men represent men. >> thank you. Uh, being new to this committee, I guess I'm just curious why this is happening in this hearing and why we didn't have a chance to review this subpoena with some notice so that, you know, as much as I want to appreciate what you say and just take it at face value, uh, we're all learning this right now, and it doesn't really give us a lot of time to to do our research to determine the validity of your subpoena requests. And so I just really from a procedural perspective, I'm just curious, can I if.
▶ 6:39:19>> I can respond and answer. Yeah. Okay. >> do you. >> yield to luna or garcia? >> yield to garcia first. >> okay. No. >> I just I just want to add that I, I understand this concerns. I'm going to recommend that we vote yes on the luna motion. I think the representative, uh, made clear her support for the deposition that we're going to have with Mr. wexler. And so that's going to be my recommendation for our committee.
▶ 6:39:41>> um, and if I could just answer the question, uh, so as part of the rules, if if subpoenas are not sent in the traditional fashion through the chairman, individual members can actually make motions where the committee as a whole can vote on it. And so, because neville singham has been avoiding receipt of our request for him to come in and just give basic information, because he has been known to be funding these groups that are literally causing us to eat each other alive, even sometimes within the house of representatives. I do think that he needs to answer for that. And so to answer your question, that is why I made the motion today.
▶ 6:40:12>> any other members wish to speak seeing none, all those in favor of the motion, as amended by the garcia amendment, signify by saying aye. >> aye. >> all those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair. The ayes have it and the motion, as amended is agreed to. Next up is the luna motion number two to subpoena jonathan greenblatt.
▶ 6:40:42Uh, does any member wish to speak on the motion? Miss luna? >> Mr. chairman, I have an amendment. >> okay. >> we'll do your amendment first. >> okay. >> thank you. I have an amendment to representative luna. Uh, pursuant to clause two, k six of house rule 11, the committee shall subpoena governor tate reeves of mississippi to testify in a hearing before the house committee on oversight and government reform. And I have some comments if you'd like to recognize. >> those now. >> all right. State your comments. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I just want to recognize the motion.
▶ 6:41:11Uh, we, of course, had a big hearing today, and we certainly shouldn't just be concerned with fraud that could be happening in states with democratic governors, but also those with republican governors. Fraud should be looked at anywhere it happens. The wall street journal on monday reported a massive mississippi welfare scandal. Mississippi has seen years of scandals under multiple governors, but we have been silent as a committee. We didn't have any witnesses from mississippi here today. And oversight. Republicans aren't calling in governor tate.
▶ 6:41:39So this is an opportunity for the american people to hear about fraud wherever it occurs. And this motion will do just that. And I yield back. >> okay. Uh. >> now, chair, miss luna to speak on the garcia amendment to your motion. Number two. >> fraud is fraud. I support this, I encourage my colleagues to do it. Doesn't matter if they're republican or not. If he's guilty of it, bring him in. >> uh. >> any other debate? >> Mr. chairman.
▶ 6:42:08>> I am wondering if the gentleman would allow me to move to amend his amendment to include the governor of arizona who, uh, who admitted that they had, uh, $2.5 billion worth of fraud in medicaid, uh, fraud. Uh, just a year ago, the attorney general did. Okay, this is where my ffa parliamentary procedure came in place. Ellie, you can back me up. Amendment.
▶ 6:42:36There's a motion to amend the amendment. Do we go into that emotion? Alright, so Mr. biggs has made an amendment to the garcia amendment to the luna motion. Does anyone wish to speak on the biggs amendment to the amendment? And his is a subpoena? The arizona governor. Right. Okay.
▶ 6:43:06>> I'm look, I'm I'm glad that the representative wants to subpoena his opponent in the governor's race. Just to be clear. >> if it makes you happy, I'll say not her. Let's bring in the ag. >> no, I mean, just, uh, just to be. >> clear, the ag. >> thank you. Sir, uh, since this is I have the floor, I just want to say that, um, my amendment is clear. We heard from one state today. I think it's important that we hear from governor tate of mississippi. That's the the amendment that I'm going to let stand as presented. If other motions are made, we can vote on those as appropriate.
▶ 6:43:37>> chair recognizes Mr. biggs to specify his amendment to the amendment on who we're. >> yeah. Thanks, Mr. chairman. I'm happy to, um, uh, reword my amendment instead of the governor of arizona, if you want the attorney general, uh, because the attorney general is the one who stood up a year and a half ago and said that she discovered $2.5 billion worth of waste in arizona's medicaid program and that, uh, we don't we need to find out more about that. So I'm content with doing that.
▶ 6:44:05And and I just find it hilariously hypocritical to say, well, we want the dude from mississippi because he's a republican. And and but when you want to bring in someone from my home state. Not even running against me, okay, that's why I moved it. And to say, well, we can't do that, can't do that because, uh, because that would be I don't know, it's just because this is the cycle you guys chose to get on.
▶ 6:44:32She's admitted she has admitted the attorney general. There's $2.5 billion worth of waste in the medicaid program. I submitted that for the record earlier today. And, uh, well, let's have at it. >> will the gentleman yield? >> okay. Okay. So the amendment to the amendment is to subpoena the arizona attorney general. Does anyone wish to speak on the amendment to the amendment? Mr. >> I'll speak after miss crockett. >> Mr. crockett, miss.
▶ 6:45:03>> crockett, I. >> just wanted to clarify, um, because I think the gentleman from arizona said that this was over a year ago, a year and a half ago, if I'm correct. Is that correct? >> did you ask me to yield? Yeah. I'll yield. Which question? >> so you said over a year and a half ago. >> it was. It was I believe it was last summer, about a year ago. >> okay. So about a year ago, um, there was an opportunity for you as a representative and presumably before you were actually running for office.
▶ 6:45:30I think the concern is about using federal dollars to further political aspirations. And as someone who was representing arizona, there should have been an opportunity for you to do something to try to subpoena. You could have tried to open an investigation. We know that the republicans are the ones that control this committee and have control of this committee for some time.
▶ 6:45:55So I just wanted to say that I definitely am opposed to this particular portion of the I guess it's the amendment to the amendment. >> yeah. >> chair recognizes Mr. fallin to speak on the amendment to the amendment. >> yeah, I support the amendment to the amendment because, I mean, just we a lot of us served in the state legislature, as I did for eight years in the house and senate in texas. This is a systemic problem across all states. I want to I mean, we're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars of criminals and scumbags stealing money.
▶ 6:46:24That's not going to where it's intended. So I don't give a rat's nuggets if it's arizona, mississippi, wherever we need to be rooting this stuff out. So I'm fully in support of Mr. biggs, and I think your efforts are noble, I yield back, I yield to Mr. biggs. >> yeah. I appreciate the gentleman for yielding. I, I do find it rich to say. Oh, you should have subpoenaed this a year ago. Uh, just like you guys could have subpoenaed, uh, anybody you wanted to a year ago as well.
▶ 6:46:51So let me just let me just add to this by saying, um, our our current governor, um, has been is being investigated, and, and I don't want to get into that because she is currently being investigated for, uh, corruption and abuse. That's I'm not trying to get into that. What I'm trying to get into is what I thought. I thought we'd reached some comity here, that we are going to be going after fraud wherever it sits in these social welfare programs. And so.
▶ 6:47:24So you didn't like it. You thought I might be doing it for political purposes. It's not for political purposes. This is because arizona has a systemic problem in their medicaid program of $2.5 billion fraud that the democrat attorney general pointed out. Let's have her come in and explain how this has happened and what what needs to be done to fix the system. Systemic problems in arizona, maybe that would be helpful to fix the problems nationwide. That's all. Yield.
▶ 6:47:54Back to the gentleman from texas. Thank you. >> gentleman from texas. You. >> Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> uh, chair recognizes Mr. garcia for the amendment on the amendment. >> thank you. Just a final comment on this. Um, I oppose the amendment.
▶ 6:48:08And here's very clear today we talked about five states, all states with democratic governors focused on one where asked where the motion that we're making as an amendment is very clear, it's to bring in one republican governor in comparison to what the majority has proposed in the past. And that's where we're leaving it. And so, at a minimum, the majority should want to bring in one republican compared to the six that we discussed today. And so we're going to. >> oppose this. Would you yield?
▶ 6:48:38>> sure. >> so I'm fine. If there's fraud in any state, would the would the, uh will you work with us to get waltz back in here so he can have an opportunity to defend what was stated today? You can work with us. >> I think. I think the governor waltz right now is looking at coming into the committee. Obviously, I'm happy to have anyone in front of us that's willing to explain, and a lot of people are looking. >> but, I mean, are they going to do it?
▶ 6:49:08>> we're willing oversight. Democrats are willing to talk to any person, any governor, any person that that can be in front of us, that we can explain issues that are important to the american public. We have no issue with governor waltz coming in to testify. >> any other members speak. Recognition on the biggs amendment to the garcia amendment. Uh, Mr. perry. >> uh, Mr.
▶ 6:49:25Chairman, if if it will make it less political, if the maker of the secondary amendment would like me to offer it in his name, coming from nowhere close to arizona to subpoena the arizona attorney general regarding her statements about known fraud in arizona, I'd be happy to do that. Well, then, since he's willing to do it, we can then. >> well, he would have to. Mr. biggs would have to withdraw his amendment. Can we. >> get back to greenblatt? >> um.
▶ 6:49:55>> then I'll withdraw and leave it in your capable hands. >> the gentleman has withdrawn, and then we can. I'll make the same motion to subpoena as a secondary amendment to the primary amendment to the primary resolution. The attorney general from arizona, regarding her position and statements on fraud in arizona in the medicaid program. >> I want to make sure everybody understands this. Representative biggs has withdrawn his amendment to the amendment, and now Mr.
▶ 6:50:20Perry has filed an amendment to the amendment in the same language to subpoena the arizona attorney general. Does everyone understand that? Okay. Uh, now, do any democrats wish Mr. men, you've had your hand up over there? >> uh, thank you, Mr. chair. And I appreciated our conversation earlier today when, uh, you expressed very clearly that this should not be a partizan committee, that we should go after fraud in all forms.
▶ 6:50:48And, uh, at which point you also agreed that having some kind of investigative hearing into mississippi might be appropriate. Uh, I appreciate your support of this amendment to the bill. Uh, if we're going to have amendments to amendments, I guess the one question I have and this might be a proposal, uh, the inspector generals were all fired at the beginning of trump's term in his second term. Uh, those are the primary watchdogs for protecting the american taxpayer from waste, fraud, and abuse of this kind.
▶ 6:51:17Uh, so why are we not calling in, uh, pam bondi and anybody else who might have had knowledge and input into the decision to fire these inspector generals, uh, as well as their staffs? And so I guess I would propose an amendment to the amendment to the amendment that we have a hearing and subpoena pam bondi and others in this regard. Why? >> why are you making an official motion to amend the amendment? And what is your motion. >> that we subpoena? Pam bondi.
▶ 6:51:46>> you you are making a motion to subpoena pam bondi. >> uh, around. And anyone else with knowledge around the, uh, the decisions and input on the decisions to fire and terminate the inspector generals. >> I want to remind you, they've called votes, and I. I have a feeling this is going to keep going on and on and on. But you've made a motion to amend. Amendment to amend the amendment to the amendment. Yes, sir. Okay. Hold on here. >> the amendment is now amendment.
▶ 6:52:16>> yeah. You can only do that twice. That's a parliamentary rule. Yes. That's, uh. Okay. So are you're done speaking. Alright. Chair recognizes Mr. donalds. >> uh, Mr. chairman, I move that the committee, uh, recess or the committee? You want to call the question? Just want to recess so we can go vote and come back and finish this up, okay? >> because we have votes. >> called flexible. Either way. >> right now, I, I think that's a fair amount. They called votes about ten minutes ago.
▶ 6:52:44So pursuant to the previous order, the committee will recess until immediately following the votes. The committee stands in recess.
▶ 8:05:04Convene and the chair recognizes miss luna to talk about her motion that has been amended a couple of times. Chair. Miss luna. >> um, so in in the name of avoiding watering down our initial amendment, um, I'm going to withdraw the initial motion. Chairman. >> okay. With. Without objection. So so ordered. Okay.
▶ 8:05:36So now the chair recognizes miss luna for luna. Yeah, for luna. Motion three. >> um, I think that was a mace motion, sir. >> that. >> was. >> oh, we're doing the next one. >> okay. Okay, so. We're going to go ahead and do. Okay.
▶ 8:06:03Chair recognizes miss luna from florida for her third motion. >> yes. Um, I do encourage all of my colleagues to support this, as you know, with what happened with recent events in venezuela, there was a leak of classified information, um, as well as resulting in one of the journalists that obtained that information, and I will say credits to the news agencies for realizing that american lives could be put in jeopardy if this leaked information was published and they did put the kibosh on it.
▶ 8:06:32But after the fact, seth harp proceeded to dox the delta force commander, um, or a delta force commander, um associated or thinking that they were associated with the mission in venezuela, resulting in his children and his family being harassed and targeted. Um, not just by activists here in the united states, but potentially by narco terrorists.
▶ 8:06:52Um, I do encourage the entire committee to issue the subpoena of seth harp, as he should be held accountable, um, for potentially leaking classified information and doxing service members, putting their lives and their family members at jeopardy by narco terrorists. >> okay. Um, so miss luna has made that motion. Chair recognizes, uh, mister garcia for an amendment. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I do have an amendment to the motion made by representative luna.
▶ 8:07:21Uh, and to make that amendment, I just want to say, pursuant to clause two, k six of house rule 11, the committee shall subpoena co-executors of the epstein estate, daryl indyke and richard kahn, to sit for depositions before the house committee on oversight and government reform. Mr. chairman, I'd like to explain the amendment. >> proceed. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, as I know, as you and so many others know, and certainly miss luna is aware, darren and richard khan were jeffrey epstein, epstein's longtime lawyer and accountant.
▶ 8:07:51A few people know more about what epstein did and who he met with, and certainly his crimes. Then the co-executors and beneficiaries of epstein's estate. We've heard directly from survivors, as we all know about both of those gentlemen, and to get justice for the survivors, which I think all of us in this committee want to get, we certainly should hear from these two men. And with that, I'd like to both support representative luna's motion and make this amendment.
▶ 8:08:22>> all right. Does anyone else seek recognition on the garcia amendment to the luna motion? Chair recognizes miss luna. >> um, I also encourage my colleagues to support this. These individuals could potentially, um, give the oversight committee access to financial records, um, and potentially name names. >> okay. Any other members seek recognition? See? Okay. Yes, sir.
▶ 8:08:54>> yeah. I just want to speak to the amendment. >> okay. Go ahead. Yeah. Just. >> just I think we all know, uh, in the military, it should be apolitical. If somebody saved your life on the battlefield, you wouldn't care if they're black or white, democrat, republican, independent, male or female. It should be apolitical. And some people risk their time. Some people risk their money. But our men and women in the military oftentimes risk their life or give their life for our freedom.
▶ 8:09:19And doxing anyone in the military for any reason is just goes against the founding principles of this country. It goes against everything that's great about our country, and it's totally wrong. And we should bring this guy in and hold him accountable. >> okay. Gentleman yields back. Any other member seek recognition. Seeing none, we are going to vote, uh, by voice on the garcia amendment to the luna motion. All those in favor of the garcia amendment signify by saying aye.
▶ 8:09:49I all those opposed, say no. In the in the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it. And the garcia amendment to the luna motion is agreed to. Now, would anyone want to discuss the luna motion as amended? >> I'd just like to add, Mr. chair, that I that I support and certainly recommend, uh, house democrats to support the luna amendment. >> any other member seek recognition. Seeing none.
▶ 8:10:17Um, all those in favor of the luna motion, as amended with the garcia amendment, signify by saying aye. All those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it and the motion is agreed to. The committee will now proceed with the mace motion to subpoena the department of.
▶ 8:10:47I'll recognize miss mace to explain her motion. >> uh, yes. This is to subpoena the, uh, the immigration records of ilhan omar and her alleged brother, husband and another husband whose names I cannot pronounce. The committee on oversight and government reform is the principal oversight committee of the us house of representatives and has broad authority to investigate any manner, at any time under house rule ten.
▶ 8:11:11And this, particularly the legislative thing that this would inform, would identify reforms regarding immigration fraud and denaturalization processes, um, potential criminal liability, things that we needed to address, uh, statutorily and legislatively. Mr. chairman, thank you. >> thank you. Uh, chair recognizes Mr. garcia to speak on the mace amendment. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I do have an amendment to the motion made by representative mace. >> state your amendment.
▶ 8:11:41>> at the end of the motion, I'd like to add, pursuant to clause two, k six of house rule 11, the committee shall subpoena all documents and communications from the department of defense regarding the military service record of representative cory mills of florida. Amen. All documents, communications, and contracts from the department of defense, department of justice, of interior of homeland security, and department of state related to representative cory mills of florida and any business in which he or any relative has a financial or controlling interest, including defense.
▶ 8:12:11Packham solutions international llc, als, llc, and any documents communications from the department of justice, the us attorney's office for the district of columbia, and martin in his personal capacity, and the white house regarding any communications around the february 20th, 2025, domestic violence incident in washington, dc involving representative cory mills of florida. And with. Mr. chairman, I'd like to be recognized to explain the amendment. >> Mr.
▶ 8:12:39Garcia amended the mace motion. Does any other member seek recognition? >> I'd like to just comment on the motion. >> go ahead. >> then I. >> can, if I recognize garcia, then then mace. Go ahead. >> I just want to just begin by saying, um, broadly speaking, on the on on the initial motion, congresswoman omar is a proud member of this body and an american and as as american as any member of this body. She is a public servant and a fighter for her constituents, and she represents the american dream.
▶ 8:13:09And I know I and house democrats are honored and proud to support her and to serve with her. Congresswoman ilhan omar has endured horrific attacks her entire time in public office, and we admire her courage. My motion requests documents on cory mills, a republican from florida. And I just want to note that this is not the best way of handling these types of issues.
▶ 8:13:31And we are introducing this only because this this is being introduced on representative ilhan omar. And so we are forced to make this motion and this amendment, uh, to, uh, to nancy mace the representative mason's nancy mace motion. And so with that, I conclude. >> gentleman yields back. Now, chair recognizes miss mace to speak on the garcia amendment to her motion. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And I support Mr.
▶ 8:14:01Representative garcia's amendment and you beat me to it. I was going to do this on the house armed services committee, and I'm a little jealous that you beat me to it. Uh, sunlight is the best disinfectant. It is the best sunshine. And if there are individuals I don't care about, party. I don't care about affiliation. Uh, this this needs to be getting. We need to get to the bottom of it and what's going on. And quite frankly, I don't think someone that allegedly is doing arms deals should be sitting on the foreign affairs committee or the house armed services committee.
▶ 8:14:29Now, this is what gets to the bottom of what's happening over there. Uh, then I support it and I support the amendment, and let's do it. >> uh, you yield back, you yield to me. So. I've had several members request information about trying to determine if Mr. omar was involved in any of the somali fraud and this and that.
▶ 8:14:56The thing that I've told people is the the ethics committee is set up to do that. That's what the ethics committee sole purpose is, is to investigate members. So we've got a motion by Mr. garcia to amend miss mason's motion. Both the amendment and the motion seek this committee to investigate sitting members of congress. That's not something the oversight committee does.
▶ 8:15:24But if you know, we're we're a democratic committee, and I'm not telling anybody in here how to vote. You vote however you want. But that's what the ethics committee role is. That's their jurisdiction. And I just wanted to state that. And again, look, I'm I'm for whatever I'm for transparency. You all vote the way you want. This committee is wired. You're going to vote the way you want anyway. I don't think the ranking member can tell his members how to vote, and I can't tell my members how to vote.
▶ 8:15:52I'm just telling you that's what the ethics committee's sole purpose in life is. So. >> Mr. chairman. >> just stating that. >> on a point of. >> order, uh. >> Mr. chairman. >> which which one do we want to, Mr. lynch? Okay. >> Mr. chairman, if I believe you're correct in your assessment that that is not something within our jurisdiction, that would mean that that motion would be out of order, not not subject to a vote.
▶ 8:16:15And let's do this anyway, even though it's not within our jurisdiction, that that's a jurisdiction of another committee. And we normally and regularly refer matters that are not within our jurisdiction to other committees. And that's how that should be handled. Sir. That's my my thought. >> the previous chairman of the. I'm going to respond to Mr.
▶ 8:16:37Lynch's inquiry, the previous chairwoman of the committee from new york remind me maloney she said the oversight committee has jurisdiction over anything and everything. And, uh, I kind of tend to believe that. But now the ethics committee has primary jurisdiction. There's no question about that. Now, do we have secondary jurisdiction? Possibly. Probably. Whatever. I'm not. >> Mr. chairman. Under rule ten, we have the ability we have full oversight of the house of representatives.
▶ 8:17:05>> we can we can do pretty much what we want in this committee. But I'm just I just want to make it very clear so we don't go start going down this road, or this committee will just turn into, you know, investigating other members, whoever's in in control. That's what the ethics committee set up to do. And I and I'm not. Look, Mr. mason beat the motion. >> it was covered up. We should find out someone married their brother to commit immigration fraud. We should find out. That's what this committee can do.
▶ 8:17:36>> I mean, I understand. >> let's not defame members of congress. I. Mr. chairman, I just want to add to you. I just want to agree. First of all, I think oversight democrats, we don't believe either of these motions should be discussed. This is not the place to be going after members in this way. If there's a concern about a member, it should be at the ethics committee. But if members and the majority are going to go after members in our in our caucus, we are going to do the same.
▶ 8:18:02And so if the if the republican majority wants to remove this amendment or vote this amendment down completely, we would join you on that. But what we're not going to do is allow the attack on one of our members. >> and I'm not defending or opposing. I'm just saying that's what. >> this is what we do. >> up here. Chair recognizes. >> each other and protect our own. >> and nobody ever. >> held accountable for anything up here. That's what this whole thing is bs.
▶ 8:18:31>> it goes to the ethics committee. >> chair recognizes we're going to we're going to vote on this. We're going to everybody's going to vote on this. We're going to vote on this because there's been a motion and amendment. We're going to vote on the amendment and the motion. I'm just saying that's what the ethics committee is supposed to do. Chair. Chair recognizes Mr. perry. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. There are few times that myself and Mr. lynch agree on things. I think he would admit that as I have. But on this occasion I feel he is correct.
▶ 8:18:56And while this committee may have the jurisdiction to do all manner of things, I think this is a dangerous precedent to set. The ethics committee is set up specifically for this task, and I, I empathize with representative mace that it seems like there is no accountability over and over again.
▶ 8:19:19And maybe in the case of representative omar and representative mills, I might even feel that way. But we have a process here for a reason, and the ethics committee is set up the way it is for a reason, so that there is equal representation in a place that is hyper partizan over the smallest of things, and so that there is a due process where
▶ 8:19:52American citizens, individuals in this body and serving members are treated fairly. That's why we have that committee. And if we're going to run members through a partizan committee, which all the other ones are set up to be. So I think that that's going to be something that we might enjoy the outcome of at the moment, but will not enjoy the outcome at some future time when we're in the minority.
▶ 8:20:21And so on this occasion, I agree with Mr. lynch and I would encourage the chair. Um, to, to, to, uh, render this motion out of order. And with my remaining time, I would cede sometime to Mr. lynch. >> I thank the gentleman and he's he's correct. We we don't agree that often, but I respect the gentleman. Uh, the other piece is this.
▶ 8:20:46Is that any one of the anyone in the public can make an allegation at any of any member here for any reason, political or personal or otherwise. And if we're going to debate allegations from the public against members on this committee, then you are just exposed to whatever anyone throws at you, and all you got to do is spend about one minute on social media and think about the, the, the, the cruelty and, and falsity that can be tossed
▶ 8:21:18Against any member. And then what the gentle lady is saying is that we want to debate the, the merits and the the veracity of those allegations against us here in an open committee, rather than having it go to the ethics committee, who will be able to vet those allegations and then if they are meaningful, bring bring something before the entire body.
▶ 8:21:42But but we open every member now and in the future to terrible exposure to your reputation. If you're going to handle every single allegation here in open public, regardless of how credible that allegation against a member might be, I just think it's bad for the for the institution. And there's another process that has worked in the past. Thank you. I yield back to the gentleman. >> and I yield, Mr. chairman, who's got the floor? Mr.
▶ 8:22:11Perry, I yield. And we yield. >> absolutely. >> I don't disagree with what Mr. mace is trying to do. I don't disagree with what Mr. garcia is trying to do, and I don't know. I have no idea what the ethics committee is doing on either of these, but I think it's disappointing that Mr. omar wasn't here for the minnesota somali hearing. I mean, that something I think she should she should have attended.
▶ 8:22:39And I think, uh, mills should, you know, answer questions on the house floor. I think they they both there are a lot of questions the american people have for both of them. Uh, so I'm just saying that's what the ethics committee. >> Mr. chair, did you just refer to the somali hearing? >> Mr. chairman, as long as hold on, as long. >> as it was a hearing. Minnesota, a hearing on minnesota committed. >> billions of dollars of fraud. It was the somali. >> somali fraud. There was somali fraud. There were lots of somali fraud allegations today. >> Mr.
▶ 8:23:07Chairman, you're if we can continue our colloquy, you're the chairman of the committee and you can make a ruling. Now, we might disagree with the ruling of the chair, but I would tell you it is my position and my recommendation, humbly and respectfully to the chair, that the chair should render ♪this motion invalid. And if we want to challenge the ruling of the chair, then we can do that and have a vote on that.
▶ 8:23:33But I think this is of substance enough and import enough that we treat it with the gravity that Mr. lynch and others have suggested, not only in this circumstance feeling the same way you do. And in total honesty, quite honestly, the same way that that representative mace does about whether this has been adjudicated or properly, appropriately or in timely or what have you. The point is, is this the place? Is this the process to do those things?
▶ 8:24:00And I would agree with my colleagues on either side of the aisle that this is not the place to do what's being implied here in this motion. >> with that, and to answer your question, on ruling the chair, you can ask the question. That was what Mr. lynch started with. We can vote on whatever we want it in consulting with with the parliamentarian. We can vote for this. We can do this. I'm just saying that's what the ethics I. Understand. Mr. chair recognizes, Mr. garcia. >> then thank you.
▶ 8:24:30Let me and I think I think we may have there's a I understand first, I want to also associate myself with the comments that were just made. And I particularly with representative lynch, I think, again, this is not the appropriate place for this. And we have filed a substitute motion because of the main motion that was filed. What what I'd like to do at this time is I'm going to withdraw my motion and instead do a motion to table the motion.
▶ 8:24:58Uh, and if that motion does not pass successfully, then I will bring my substitute motion on representative mills back to the floor. But now this now we have an opportunity with this additional amendment, I'm withdrawing the mills amendment. And my new my new motion amendment is to table the initial mace motion. I hope everyone votes yes on that.
▶ 8:25:25I think that solves the issues that a majority of us are trying to solve, and we can move on to the next item. So that is the motion. >> so Mr. garcia made a motion to table. That's not debatable. >> Mr. chairman. >> I do have a question. >> it's it's not debatable. I'm sorry. >> it's not. It's not. >> about your request. You're a good member. >> I just have a question and and and. >> do it quick because it's not debatable. But he will. >> go ahead. Well, this is not about the motion to table.
▶ 8:25:55It's about, uh, under the ethics committee, uh, if they find evidence against a member, they can make recommendations for censure, for removal. Uh, if we were to conduct something like that here, uh, what power does this committee have? Is it the same powers, the ethics committee? I really I agree with, with Mr. perry, Mr.
▶ 8:26:19Lynch, that this might be a bridge too far and and if we if we're going to do this, then we need to know what the consequences are going forward for any other member who might, including a member of this committee who might, uh, have, uh, issues raised. Uh, how far does this go? >> okay. >> other than just, you know, a public trial, I yield back. >> all right.
▶ 8:26:48So all those in favor of the motion to table signify by saying aye? >> aye. >> all those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair. The ayes have it. And the motion to table is agreed to that. Is there any other business which needs to come before the committee. Oh, the okay, Mr. chair, recognize Mr.
▶ 8:27:15Higgins, then we'll recognize recognition. Go ahead. You are recognized. >> Mr. chairman. This I had endeavored to remain silent, but I'm compelled to clarify for the citizenry watching and for remind my colleagues. Let me just ask you, Mr. chairman, your chairman of the oversight committee, does this committee enjoy? And do you possess the power to subpoena?
▶ 8:27:46>> yes, sir. >> thank you very much. Does that authority to subpoena require a vote by this entire committee or debate regarding votes for subpoena of of, uh, material or or no or people? Thank you.
▶ 8:27:59So we are a serious investigative committee body, and yet we are presenting to the american people the concept that this is our subpoena procedure, that a member has to present a motion and has to be a vote and absurd debate back and forth, that this is the means by which we determine whether or not a subpoena is
▶ 8:28:30Issued. And the oversight committee, I think it's insulting to the seriousness of the work that we do, and that the staff of this, of this, this committee performs every day, every day and seeking a subpoena, might I add. Let me just put this out there. It's it's a it's a furtherance of compulsion. Listen to your uncle clay. America.
▶ 8:28:58You don't just normally start out with a subpoena introduced as a vote by a member on a guy. This poor guy, seth harp. I don't know who he is. I had to google him. We haven't reached out to him and asked him to come before this committee, and he said no. That's normally the first step. You you call an email, you have an official communication from the committee reaching out to an american citizen, say, we'd like to talk to you.
▶ 8:29:28And as part of our legislative purpose, we're conducting investigative work. You're included. Will you come talk to us then? If they say no, you take the next step was usually a more strongly worded letter, and then you get to the point where you can rightfully use your subpoena authority in a judicious and conservative manner.
▶ 8:29:52And yet, because of the behavior of this committee in in recent months, it has been presented to the american people via c-span that the way we we pursue a subpoena in this committee is, is by the introduction of a motion for a vote to subpoena something or someone. That's not the way it's done. Mr.
▶ 8:30:21Chairman, I voted no on all of this because I object to this process that is false and not reflective of the serious investigative work that the oversight committee performs day in and day out. And I yield to the chairman. >> thank you. Thank you, clay. Very well said. Very well said. Chair recognizes miss presley. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Um.
▶ 8:30:49My motion. >> uh, sorry. >> thank you, Mr. chair. My motion to subpoena is pretty straightforward. It's timely and also germane. It's the only subpoena that is relevant to today's hearing. Earlier today, a woman was shot multiple times and killed by immigration enforcement agents in minnesota while we were holding a hearing on the state. And while there are claims that ice did nothing wrong, the officials in minnesota say otherwise.
▶ 8:31:15And since this committee is responsible for oversight of federal law enforcement, uh, we must investigate. This subpoena will help us get to the truth, and it should have bipartisan support. And I urge my colleagues to vote yes. >> gentlelady yields back. Any other member seek recognition on the presley? Yes. Uh, who said we have anybody on our side? Okay. Uh, Mr. ranking member and then I'll go to.
▶ 8:31:40>> I'll actually just I just want to just add that I obviously support, uh, the, the presley motion. I think it's relevant to today's conversation. So I want to thank her for the motion. I want to yield the rest of my time to, uh, uh, to congressman krishnamoorthi, please. I, I just wanted to give a little context to, uh, miss presley's excellent motion for those who haven't had a chance to see this video. This video from minnesota is deeply, deeply disturbing.
▶ 8:32:08It shows a federal immigration enforcement operation on a residential street in south minneapolis, where families live. Agents move in on a civilian vehicle. Weapons are drawn. The car is boxed in, shots are fired, a woman is struck and dies. And if you look at the video, you can see that the officer actually shoots the woman point blank in front of the wind from in front of the windshield.
▶ 8:32:38The footage does not show an unavoidable imminent threat, or that lethal force was the only option from what can be seen. The woman was trying to drive away. That raises serious questions about judgment and de-escalation. A woman is dead. Her family now carries a permanent loss. This should never have happened when federal agents used deadly force.
▶ 8:33:04The burden of justification is extraordinarily high, regardless of the mission. Oversight requires sworn testimony. Secretary of homeland security kristi noem must appear before this committee. I will press to subpoena secretary noem and force a vote again and again until she explains on the record, why a woman is dead following a federal operation captured on video in a residential neighborhood.
▶ 8:33:32Is secretary noem has nothing to hide. She should have nothing to fear from testifying before this committee. I hope she will come before this committee voluntarily. This committee must do its duty. Thank you. And I yield back. >> yield back. Any other member seek recognition. >> Mr. chairman. >> chair recognizes Mr. gosar, and then I'll get to clay.
▶ 8:33:56>> yeah, I you know, I think the error of what the gentleman is talking about is good, but I think it has to be across the board. And what I mean by that is, is that there were instigating factors by the mayor, uh, that antagonized the situation and anybody that if it was found that there's innocence here and we should presume everybody's innocent until proven guilty, um, that there also are on the line that they combatively took on the police or the not not police,
▶ 8:34:28But the oversight and the folks from immigration. They should be charged as well. So I think it should be open all the way across the board so that it's equal and a adjudicated. >> okay. Do you do you yield to Mr. higgins? Would you yield to Mr. higgins? You yield. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. >> thank you. I thank my colleague. Um, Mr. chairman.
▶ 8:34:58The split second decisions that officer has to make on the street, and. He. Everything is on the line, literally. And whereas I fully support a thorough investigation of this officer involved shooting. And every officer involved shooting.
▶ 8:35:21He, uh, I asked my colleagues to to back up from this request, and I'm going to oppose this motion, but actually, I think it should be withdrawn because I ask that my colleagues look at this motion within the context of what you're actually asking for. You're asking for a slice of of evidence.
▶ 8:35:45Void of the full spectrum of the required investigation. This is the this is the sort of thing that we should absolutely.
▶ 8:36:05As a as a republican, well, rooted in criminal justice procedure over the course of 250 years of learning and growing and developing as a nation, regarding protection of of the innocent, which is every american accused of a crime until proven guilty.
▶ 8:36:30And and the process for investigation should be thorough and slow and calm and and here we are again. We're we're leaning towards. Show me the video. >> Mr. >> will the gentleman yield. >> for. >> a question? I'll close by saying I'm going to yield my time back to Mr. gosar. Uh, I'll close by the time has been yielded to me by by saying maybe I'm the only guy in here.
▶ 8:37:01>> you yield for a question. >> uh, no, madam. This the time was yielded. >> a question to you. >> please respect that. You could be recognized. But you, when you recognize you ask me a question I'm happy to answer. >> okay. >> maybe I'm the only guy in here that has has brought many people in the back of my squad car to jail to be booked. Did the initial arrest. It was not uncommon. Hear me, my colleagues. It was not uncommon.
▶ 8:37:29From the back seat of my my unit, it would say, show me the video, man. Show me the proof, man. And I would. I would say, sir, this is the arrest part. Later comes the trial part and you'll have a shot to look at all the evidence that the prosecution has. So we're, we're we're falling into that category of being too quick and cute for our own good here.
▶ 8:37:58We we should allow investigative authority under thorough and complete and vigorous oversight by congress. Yes, but not to the extent that we're interfering with the investigative authority by voting and mandating that that evidence of an investigation, a small slice of it, be presented for public purview.
▶ 8:38:24We we should be calm and judicious, and I yield the time that was kindly yielded to me. Back to Mr. gosar. >> I thank the gentleman and I move to table the motion. >> Mr. chairman, can I speak on the motion? >> not debatable. Uh, motion has been made by Mr. gosar of tabling the motion.
▶ 8:38:49All those in favor of tabling signify by saying aye. All those opposed? No, no. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it and the motion to table is agreed to. >> can we get a recorded vote on this? >> recorded vote has been ordered. The clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. jordan. >> yes. >> Mr. jordan votes yes. Mr.
▶ 8:39:22Turner. Mr. gosar, Mr. gosar votes yes. Miss fox. Mr. grossman. >> yes. >> Mr. grossman votes yes. Mr. cloud. Mr. cloud votes yes. Mr. palmer okay. >> yeah. Go ahead. >> go ahead. Mr. palmer votes. Yes. Mr. higgins, Mr.
▶ 8:39:50Higgins votes yes. Mr. sessions, Mr. sessions votes yes. Mr. biggs, Mr. biggs votes I miss mace. Miss mace votes no. Mr. fallon. I Mr. fallon votes I Mr. donald's. Mr. perry Mr.
▶ 8:40:18Perry votes I Mr. timmons Mr. timmons votes I Mr. burchett Mr. burchett votes I miss boebert I miss boebert votes I miss luna. Mr. langworthy. Mr.
▶ 8:40:44Burleson Mr. burleson votes I Mr. crane Mr. crane votes I Mr. >> jack I Mr. >> jack votes I Mr. maguire. I Mr. maguire votes I Mr. gil Mr. gil votes I Mr. garcia. No. Mr.
▶ 8:41:18Garcia votes no. Miss norton. >> no. >> miss norton votes no. Mr. lynch. >> no. >> Mr. lynch votes no. Mr. krishnamoorthy, Mr. krishnamoorthi votes no. Mr. khanna, Mr. khanna votes no. Mr. mfume, Mr. mfume votes no. Miss brown. Miss.
▶ 8:41:47Stansbury, miss. Stansbury votes no. Mr. frost. No. Mr. frost, votes no. Miss lee, miss lee, votes no. Mr. kassar, Mr. kassar votes no. Miss crockett. No. Miss crockett votes no. Miss randall.
▶ 8:42:18No. Miss randall votes no. Mr. subramaniam, Mr. subramaniam votes no. Miss ansari no. Miss ansari votes no. Mr. bell. >> no. >> Mr. bell votes no. Miss simon. No. Miss simon votes no. Mr. minh, Mr. minh votes no. Mr. walkinshaw, Mr.
▶ 8:42:46Walkinshaw votes no. Miss pressley, miss pressley votes no. Miss taleb, miss taleb votes no. Mr. chairman. >> yes. >> Mr. chairman, votes yes. >> has any member, uh not voted or any member wish to change a vote? Seeing none, will the clerk tally the votes?
▶ 8:44:02>> Mr. chairman, on this vote, the eyes are 19, the nays are 21. >> the motion to table fails and we will proceed to, I assume, vote. Unless people want to debate this more. Mr. chair. Chair. Chair. Any any other members seek recognition. >> Mr. chair. >> miss. Mr. fallon, go ahead. >> chairman I'll be very brief because it's been a long day for all of us. Um, listen, I'm all for, uh, transparency.
▶ 8:44:28This incident as the, uh, member from massachusetts said, this isn't. It just happened today. I'd like to give da dhs a chance to release anything related to this. This is a very serious matter. I've only seen one video myself. I've heard that there's other angles, so I'd like to see the process play out. And this is, uh, I think this is out of order, and it's not our role.
▶ 8:44:51So I agree, yes, that we need to learn the truth and see all the evidence, but I'm going to trust the process and I yield back. >> Mr. chairman, uh. >> do you yield to miss mason? Yes. >> I yield, I yield. And I'll be. >> fairly quick. I support, um, the subpoena. Um, there, after the first two videos went viral, there was a third video that appeared to show the ice agent being struck by the vehicle.
▶ 8:45:19My understanding he is in the hospital now. And so I think getting it out there on what happened, uh, again, sunlight is the best disinfectant. But I also want to recognize, as I'm supporting this subpoena, why this happened, why we're here today is because for years now, ice agents, police officers, conservatives, republicans have been dehumanized. Ice agents have been called nazis.
▶ 8:45:49Fascists. Uh, today we heard the governor of minnesota, tim walz, literally tried to incite violence in a riot in war against the federal government. Today, you heard the mayor of minneapolis drop the f bomb. And so when I hear my colleagues across the other side of the aisle talk about judgment and de-escalation, we are the ones that have been judged. I ice officers have been judged, judged. The de-escalation isn't happening. This violent rhetoric is causing violence, and people feel emboldened to be violent.
▶ 8:46:20Um, the other thing I wanted to mention is that today, kristi noem, bring her to the committee. I support that she did address this today. What happened in public? It was one of the first things she talked about this afternoon, right after it happened. I believe within an hour or two, she very publicly provided an answer that was very clear and detailed on what happened and why. Um, but I would encourage everyone to, to think about why why we're here today. I mean, in this kind of rhetoric has just got to stop.
▶ 8:46:49But release it all, release all the camera footage, body cam. I'm all for it, and I'll be voting for it. Thank you. And I yield back. >> gentlelady yields back. Chair. Okay. Uh, recognize ranking member. Then we'll go to birgit. >> thank you. I was just going to say that obviously the motion to table didn't go through. And oversight. Democrats are ready to vote on the motion. >> you want to. >> uh, birgit? Mr. point of clarification. >> what exactly are we voting on?
▶ 8:47:17>> we're voting on a motion to subpoena. A motion to subpoena the department of homeland security for all documents and footage related to the murder of a woman by ice in minneapolis, minnesota, today. >> Mr. chairman, I would clarify that word. >> go ahead. >> the the death of a woman. >> well, it says murder on the motion. >> okay. Well. >> and and, Mr. chair. Mr. chair. Question Mr.
▶ 8:47:50>> questions. >> Mr. chair, I just want to be clear because I'm not sure if it's stated in the motion and you fail to read it, but I would like the record to reflect that the woman who was killed, her name is renee nicole. Good. So that hopefully we won't have any confusion about. >> it's not in the motion, but but the question has been called for. We're going to vote on this. Uh, the clerk call the roll. >> Mr. jordan. >> okay. >> Mr. jordan votes no. Mr.
▶ 8:48:23Turner. Mr. gosar, Mr. gosar votes no. Miss fox. Mr. grothman. Mr. grothman votes no. Mr. cloud. Mr. cloud votes no. Mr. palmer. Mr. palmer votes no.
▶ 8:48:56Mr. higgins. Mr. higgins no. Mr. higgins votes no. Mr. sessions. Mr. sessions votes no. Mr. biggs. >> no. >> Mr. biggs votes no. Miss mace.
▶ 8:49:25>> I didn't realize it said murder. I'm a no. This was not murder. >> miss mace votes no. Mr. fallon. >> nay. >> Mr. fallon votes nay. Mr. donald's. Mr. perry, Mr. perry votes no. Mr. timmons. No. Mr. timmons votes no. Mr. burchett, Mr. burchett votes no.
▶ 8:49:53Miss boebert. No. Miss boebert votes no. Miss luna. Mr. langworthy. Mr. burleson. Mr. burleson votes no. Mr. crane, Mr. crane votes no. Mr. jack. >> no. >> Mr. jack votes no. Mr.
▶ 8:50:23Mcgill. >> water. >> excuse me, Mr. maguire. >> no. >> Mr. maguire votes no. Mr. gill, Mr. gill votes no. Mr. garcia. >> yes. >> Mr. garcia votes yes. Miss norton. >> yes. >> miss. Norton votes yes. Mr. lynch. >> yes. >> Mr. lynch votes yes. Mr.
▶ 8:50:55Krishnamoorthy. Mr. krishnamoorthy, votes yes. Mr. khanna, yes. Mr. khanna votes yes. Mr. mfume. Yes. Mr. mfume votes yes. Miss brown. Miss. Stansbury, miss stansbury, votes yes. Mr. frost. Yes. Mr. frost, votes yes.
▶ 8:51:22Miss lee, miss lee, votes yes. Mr. kassar, Mr. kassar, votes yes. Miss crockett, miss crockett votes yes. Miss randall. Yes, miss randall, votes yes, Mr. subramaniam, Mr. subramaniam, votes yes. Miss ansari. Yes, miss ansari votes yes. Mr. bell.
▶ 8:51:55Yes. Mr. bell votes yes, miss simon. Yes, miss simon votes yes. Mr. minh, Mr. minh votes yes. Mr. walkinshaw. Yes. Mr. walkinshaw, votes yes. Miss pressley. Yes. Miss pressley votes. Yes. Miss taleb. Yes. Miss taleb votes yes, Mr. chairman. >> no. >> Mr. chairman votes no.
▶ 8:52:24>> has any other member, does any other member wish to vote? If not, any member wish to change your vote? Seeing none, the clerk will tally the vote. >> Mr.
▶ 8:52:53Chairman, on this vote, the eyes are 20, the nays are 20. >> it is a tie. So the motion fails. Does any other member have any, uh, business before the committee seeing? None. Uh, with that, and without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses if there are no further business. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned. >> thanks, guys. Appreciate that. >> that worked out about.