▶ 0:11:38Well. Good morning. I call the subcommittee on energy of the energy and commerce committee to order. And welcome to our first hearing of the new year. The chair recognizes himself for five minutes for an opening statement. Today's hearing will examine the current state of the nuclear industry, the emerging prospects for the rapid and widespread deployment of new nuclear technologies, and what more may be done to enable success.
▶ 0:12:04The importance of successful growth of the american nuclear energy cannot be understated. Most importantly, we need what we need in this country is more energy. We need firm, reliable power, versatile power, and more of it. We need power for emerging industrial output in the ai race. Also for homes and businesses, a robust and growing nuclear industry also strengthens our national security.
▶ 0:12:29It does so through increased nuclear commerce with allies, and through a more cost effective industrial base. Congress has already taken significant steps that will optimize the regulatory system and related policies to assist in domestic nuclear deployment. The advance act.
▶ 0:12:46Major provisions of which were developed by the energy and commerce committee members, focused on licensing efficiency, reducing costs, and increasing predictability in the nuclear regulatory commission's licensing. It also provided for improved coordination among agencies and increasing access to nuclear technology for our allies. It increased the abilities of allies to invest in american nuclear projects.
▶ 0:13:13Congress also enacted legislation to secure nuclear fuel supplies, and this will be providing funding to jumpstart work to develop advanced fuels and banning russian fuels to create the market conditions that will incentivize new domestic fuel capacity. This legislative work builds upon other legislative measures concerning federal loan and credit programs, nuclear demonstrations and technical support, and long term liability protections for nuclear reactors.
▶ 0:13:40Congress has established a strong framework for nuclear development for coming decades. How this is being implemented will be an important topic for this hearing. By any measure, the prospects of expanding nuclear power in the united states have been improving dramatically in recent years. Consider that only 5 or 6 years ago, we were confronting a wave of nuclear retirements. Today, closed nuclear reactors are being restarted, and utilities are seeking to produce more power at existing sites.
▶ 0:14:10This monday, nrc for the first time approved replacement of analog safety equipment with digital controls, which paves the way for modernizing safety controls across the fleet. This action, finally taken after years of regulatory churn, creates a template for other plans to seek nrc approval of digitization.
▶ 0:14:31There is growing interest in new builds for the large westinghouse ap1000, the advanced light water reactor brought online at plant vogel in georgia, and a growing number of advanced nuclear technologies are moving into or through the licensing pipeline. Major new players, including manufacturers, are providing support and financing for new projects. The trump administration, meanwhile, is also working to advance nuclear on a number of fronts.
▶ 0:14:58It is accelerating regulatory reforms consistent with the advance act for more efficient, risk informed licensing. It is working to bring in more foreign investment and accelerate innovative new technology demonstrations, and develop small reactors for military bases. How this is going and how it can work more effectively will also be useful focus for this hearing.
▶ 0:15:22Our witnesses today will provide important perspective to help us assess what more may be necessary to ensure our success. Maria korzenik, the president and ceo of the nuclear energy institute, a nuclear engineer and former chief nuclear officer and plant operator, will offer the broad industry view for what is necessary advancing nuclear.
▶ 0:15:44John williams, senior vice president of the southern nuclear operating company, among other experience overseeing nuclear operations, brings this perspective of having overseen the construction and operation of the first nuclear units in 30 years. Judy greenwald, president and ceo of the nuclear innovation alliance, will offer the views of a leading washington nuclear policy organization, which informs some of our work on the advance act.
▶ 0:16:10And finally, john wagner, director of the idaho national laboratory, will provide the perspective of the national lab responsible responsible for a substantial amount of nuclear research and development in what he sees across the landscape of the nuclear policy today.
▶ 0:16:25The success of our work in congress to advance durable nuclear deployment will be depend, will depend on appropriate and efficient regulatory decisions, dependable supply chains and fuels for predictable construction and deployment costs, and, of course, market demand. This hearing can help us in that work. At this time, I'll, uh, my time is expired and I yield back.
▶ 0:16:53And the chair recognizes the gentlelady from the florida's 14th district, the ranking member of the subcommittee for five minutes for an opening statement. Good morning. >> good morning, and happy new year to you, Mr. chairman, and to to members and everyone here. Uh, we are really hoping for a productive year here at the committee. Uh, americans across the country are counting on us because under republican policies, electric bills are up, uh, by 13%.
▶ 0:17:18And more than 80 million americans are struggling to pay their utility bills. Uh, over the next five years, it's predicted that electricity use in the united states will increase by well over 32%. In florida, the, uh, electric utilities just instituted the highest rate increases in the history of the state, the highest in the country. Uh, so folks are really looking to to us to help solve problems.
▶ 0:17:47And while nuclear power is a very important piece of the puzzle, what has been working to keep pressure on lower bills and to meet the new demand has been solar storage and wind power. Uh, last year through november, 92% of new us power capacity generation was through solar batteries and wind power. Uh, growing solar and wind resources exceeded all new electricity demand globally.
▶ 0:18:15In the first three quarters of 2025. Uh, so that's why we're going to continue to highlight how, uh, damaging and expensive it is for republicans to sabotage cleaner, cheaper energy sources that are that are keeping the pressure on lower bills across the board. Uh, and unfortunately, it looks like my republican friends are entering the new year with the same playbook.
▶ 0:18:41While they actually should be listening to what power developers are saying and doing, they're they're not rushing to, uh, for new nuclear plants. They're building solar and batteries. Now, don't get me wrong. Let's be clear. Democrats strongly support nuclear energy. Uh, just look at our the leadership we provided through the inflation reduction act and the advance act, uh, to help the country deploy more nuclear power.
▶ 0:19:09Uh, nuclear energy plays a very important role. It's about 20% of the us electricity generation. But for too long, republicans have supported nuclear power in theory, but failed to follow through.
▶ 0:19:22As soon as nuclear power starts to compete with fossil fuels, for example, in the house's version of the big ugly bill passed out of this committee last year, every republican on this committee voted to cut back the tax credit to support existing nuclear plants, and republicans ultimately rescinded billions of dollars to support the loan programs office, the lpo, those credits, uh, in their big ugly
▶ 0:19:52Bill that could have been used to support advanced nuclear financing. All of this occurs as the lpo is on its third temporary leader without a single official nomination for a director, and reports indicate that the office has lost as much as 60% of the professional staff due to voluntary resignations, and those cuts.
▶ 0:20:15See, nuclear power requires continuity and certainty, which is actively being undermined by this administration's reckless and illegal attacks on energy projects and on the independence of the nuclear regulatory commission, which oversees the safety of our nuclear plants.
▶ 0:20:33As nuclear companies watch the republicans cancel loans for transmission lines, illegally, halt offshore wind projects already under construction, and completely upend the regulatory framework that the nuclear industry depends on. Why should they trust the trump administration to be a reliable partner? I certainly hope that this committee can provide greater continuity and push back on a lot of the chaos coming out of the administration.
▶ 0:21:01Meanwhile, if you look across to china, they are dominating the build out of new nuclear power plants, hosting nearly half of the reactors currently under construction. It appears that trump and the republicans don't want to compete. Uh, instead, the trump administration is pursuing a foreign policy fixated on capturing other countries oil reserves, all to produce more oil that in the president's own world, words will be shipped to china. It just doesn't make sense.
▶ 0:21:30We need to build out nuclear energy. Uh, that will help supply the rising demand, provide greater certainty. But under the chaos of this administration, it's going to be difficult. So I'm interested in hearing from the experts today on how we get back on track, what this committee can do to help.
▶ 0:21:49We need financing in order to build new reactors, standardized deployments of at least 5 to 10 reactors with the same design that helps us learn, decrease costs, and catalyze commercial liftoff. And most importantly, we mean we need confidence in the safety of the reactors. If the american public loses that confidence, then the industry will wither. And right now, the trump administration is doing everything within its power to undermine that confidence.
▶ 0:22:16So I look forward to hearing from our experts today and encourage everyone interested in this industry to be communicating with the with this committee on how we can move forward. Thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentlelady's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, the chairman of the full committee for five minutes for question or five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:22:41And before I begin, it seems like just yesterday we're honoring our remembering gerry connolly. And now doug lamalfa. It is just such a sad situation that with for his family and our thoughts and prayers, we recognize his family. I call him the man from lamafa and he came to me right after the california redistricting and said, uh, I'd like for you to come to my district. And I said, well, that'd be great. I've always wanted to see mount shasta. And he says, well, I hope you like wine, because I now represent sonoma.
▶ 0:23:11So anyway, he, uh, the laughter through tears. Isn't that right, dana? We talk about dolly parton said, is the is the motion that we we've all cried for him. And if you knew him, you laugh with him. He was a wonderful man from a wonderful place. And he loved this wonderful country. So our thoughts and prayers with his family. So now getting to he want us to get to business. That's what he would say. So, uh, so we're starting this year with a committee examining how we're going to meet our nation's growing energy needs. And we work to remove barriers to expansion and to prioritize reliable power.
▶ 0:23:40We've examined why american energy dominance is essential for a productive, healthy, and secure nation. It's clear that nuclear energy is a key component. Today, we'll look at how to expand nuclear further. Uh, from 1971 to 1987, america proved its nuclear energy capabilities, with utilities connecting 87 nuclear reactors producing 80gw of capacity to the grid, a pace of about six new reactors a year of faster than larger deployment than any other nation.
▶ 0:24:10To date, china has built 58 reactors at an average of rate of three a year, but that deployment may increase, with more than 30 reactors under construction. This direct competition with the united states and nuclear commerce, uh, has huge implications for geopolitics and energy security, underscoring the urgency of promoting american nuclear leadership.
▶ 0:24:32The good news is this committee's work to pass the advance act and other policies into law has set the stage for success in the new nuclear era removing permitting delays, cutting licensing costs, driving faster, efficient decisions, improving international engagement, and incentivizing american supply chains. We've we're reaching the point that licensing should no longer be a barrier to nuclear expansion.
▶ 0:24:58Success now will more likely rest on construction, finance and economic factors. Yet here, too, there is great new promise. Not only are utilities and state policy makers returning to nuclear and turning on retired plants, but new sources of capital investment are engaging major technology companies pursuing power for ai. Data centers have stepped up, as has the oil and gas sector, among others.
▶ 0:25:24I want to thank president trump for his executive orders focused on growing investments in energy technologies. Our job as policy makers is to identify what more needs to be done to accelerate america's new nuclear era in a way that ensures safety, protects taxpayers, and provides national security. Thank you to our witnesses for being here. We look forward to hearing from each of you and I'll yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back.
▶ 0:25:52The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey, the ranking member of the full committee for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. The last year has been one of the worst years for the security and safety of america's civilian nuclear fleet since the splitting of the atom in 1945. And that sounds dramatic, but I really believe it's true. President trump and energy secretary chris, right, have attacked our nuclear regulatory regime and shattered confidence in america's hard won record on nuclear safety.
▶ 0:26:22If the trump administration does not stop its attacks, american lives will be at risk. And I support safe nuclear energy. It's clean, it runs around the clock, and it provides much needed energy security. Democrats and republicans on this committee worked together last congress to enact important nuclear energy laws, including the advance act, a ban on importing russian uranium and investment in domestic nuclear fuel cycle build out.
▶ 0:26:47But nuclear power also needs safeguards, so the american people can have confidence that it will operate safely. And based on the trump administration's actions over the last year, I am deeply concerned that it's putting american lives at risk. And let's recap what has happened this past year. First, president trump illegally fired without cause. The former chair of the nuclear regulatory commission, for the first time in its 50 year history, a republican nrc commissioner, resigned out of disgust for what the commission had become.
▶ 0:27:18And two current nrc commissioners have warned that they could be fired at any time for any reason if they refuse to approve a nuclear reactor due to safety concerns. Any one of these events is cause for major concern, but all three of those events happening within the same year, in my opinion, is a crisis. And unfortunately, that's not all.
▶ 0:27:37The trump administration issued an executive order demanding that all rulemakings from the nrc pass through the white house's office of information and regulatory affairs for approval, putting trump's hand-picked lackeys over independent commissioners confirmed by the united states senate. And this requirement has shattered the transparency that historically has given the american people assurance that the nrc's rules are strong and effective.
▶ 0:28:03Instead, nrc commissioners are prevented from making public what they're voting on until the white house has approved it. And that's not how an independent agency should work, frankly. And it gets even worse. Last year, employees affiliated with elon, with elon musk, doge were detailed to the nrc from the department of energy. They informed the nrc's chairman and staff that they were expected to quote rubber stamp reactor designs approved by the department of energy or the department of defense.
▶ 0:28:29They pushed out the nrc's executive director for operations and general counsel. And worst of all, they seemed to operate without any nrc employees as their supervisors and report directly back to the department of energy. Now, I shouldn't have to tell anyone in this room that this is wildly illegal. 50 years ago, when congress created the nrc, it explicitly chose to separate it from what would become the department of energy.
▶ 0:28:53It's crucial that we fully separate the people responsible for aiding and assisting the nuclear industry in important job, from the people in charge of regulating its safety. And yet, secretary rice has no problem recklessly charging ahead. Now, we've repeatedly asked secretary rice for information, including when it was before us last year. But despite his promises, then we've received nothing from the department of energy.
▶ 0:29:17According to the white house, doe is supposed to stand up three new nuclear reactors by july 4th of this year, but they have refused to share any information with us. Now, I understand the trump administration wants to promote nuclear energy, but I have zero confidence that it knows how to do it while maintaining the safety of the american people. We can't afford a single mistake, and the trump administration is pushing us down a path where mistakes, potentially fatal ones, are becoming increasingly likely.
▶ 0:29:47So if republicans have any interest in moving nuclear legislation, this congress, democrats must have full and complete confidence in the safety of our nuclear fleet. Right now, we do not have that. The trump administration must stop its attacks on the independence of the nrc and genuinely engage with congressional oversight. If any progress is to be made, democrats will not stand for this administration, putting americans lives at risk. With that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you very much.
▶ 0:30:15The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. And at this time, we thank our witnesses again for joining us to testify before the subcommittee. Each witness will have the opportunity to give an opening statement, followed by a round of questions from the members of the subcommittee. Our witnesses, again for today are miss maria korzenik, the president and ceo of the national energy institute. Mr.
▶ 0:30:41John williams, senior vice president of the technical services and external affairs at the southern company, miss judy greenwald, president and ceo of the nuclear innovation alliance, and doctor john wagner, the director of the idaho national laboratory. And before I get to you all, just some quick housekeeping. Uh, please pull the mics up close to you when you speak. Uh, there's a set of lights. You'll see, uh, you'll have five minutes each.
▶ 0:31:08And when you get to one minute, it'll go yellow, and then it'll go red at, uh, at the fifth minute. So we ask you to, uh, finish up your, uh, if you haven't finished at that time, your statement also because of the, uh, briefing that's going to occur at 1130, the security briefing that the, uh, this subcommittee will recess at 1120 and will reconvene promptly at 1245. So we appreciate you all for being here today.
▶ 0:31:36Miss korzenik, you are recognized for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you very much. Uh, I would like to thank chairman guthrie, ranking member, pallone, chairman and ranking member castor, and members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to appear before you today. I wish to begin by expressing my sincere appreciation for the committee's continued leadership on nuclear energy. We are at such a pivotal moment for the nation's energy system.
▶ 0:32:06Domestic electricity demand is growing faster than at any point in decades, driven by data centers, artificial intelligence, advanced manufacturing and electrification data center. Electricity demand alone is projected to triple. Large electricity users increasingly need power that is reliable. It's clean, available 24 over seven, and at scale. Many are turning to nuclear power because other resources cannot consistently meet those requirements.
▶ 0:32:35And at the same time, the us is competing globally not just on energy, but on technology, on manufacturing, on national security and influence. Winning the ai race with china depends on access to large volumes of reliable power. The rise in demand is raising concerns about energy prices and affordability.
▶ 0:32:57Nuclear's always on capability, stable operating costs and lower transmission needs contribute to lower overall system costs for consumers. Nuclear power is a solution to the energy and national security challenges that we face. Our operating nuclear fleet is performing at historically high levels of safety and reliability.
▶ 0:33:18Today, 94 reactors across 28 states provide nearly one fifth of america's electricity and almost half of its clean generation. As a nation, we must build on the strong foundation established over the past 70 years.
▶ 0:33:35Congress's leadership through extension of the price anderson act, passage of the advance act, and support of the advanced reactor demonstration program has helped move next generation nuclear projects toward deployment. Recent executive actions have reinforced the urgency, with a goal of quadrupling nuclear power by 2050.
▶ 0:33:57Operating nuclear plant owners are planning to add more than eight gigawatts of capacity through generation upgrades and plant restarts, and more than 23gw of new nuclear by 2040. These figures do not include substantial additional capacity being pursued by developers and other companies.
▶ 0:34:20The task now is to turn this momentum into deployment at scale, as outlined in my written testimony, the industry has six priorities were continued. Congressional leadership is essential. First is regulatory modernization. The industry's commitment to safety is non-negotiable. Modernization means focusing regulation where it matters most on safety. Significant issues while improving productivity, predictability, and timeliness.
▶ 0:34:51Although the nrc has made progress since the passage of the advance act, continued congressional oversight is critical to ensure those efforts result in greater efficiency without compromising safety. Second is mitigation of early mover financial risk. The barrier to new nuclear deployment today is not technology, but the concentration of financial risk borne by early projects.
▶ 0:35:15A limited but catalytic federal risk sharing role can bridge the gap for early projects to increase certainty of completion and drive costs down over time. Third is establishment of the domestic nuclear fuel supply chain. Congress has taken quick and decisive action to authorize and appropriate funds to rebuild domestic fuel supply.
▶ 0:35:39The $2.7 billion in uranium enrichment awards, announced just this week, are a major step toward turning that bipartisan action into operating capacity. Permitting, licensing and contracting must keep pace so that these investments can actually create the new capacity, which will reduce our reliance on adversarial suppliers. Fourth, establishment of a durable used fuel framework.
▶ 0:36:03Used fuel is managed safely today, but a long term national strategy is required to address storage, transportation, recycling and disposal as part of a comprehensive and integrated system. Also, workforce and supply chain readiness. Deploying nuclear at scale requires a sustained pipeline of skilled workers and expanded manufacturing. Federal, state, and industry support is essential to prepare the workforce and supply chain needed.
▶ 0:36:31And sixth, us competitiveness in global nuclear markets. Russia is aggressively exporting nuclear technology backed by state financing, and china is well positioned to become a leading supplier. Us leadership requires sound export policy and effective financing tools that allow american companies to compete to compete. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. >> well, thank you very much, Mr. williams. You are recognized for five minutes for your statement.
▶ 0:37:02>> chairman, ranking member. Castor, full committee chairman, guthrie and full committee chairman, full committee ranking member pallone and members of the subcommittee. My name is john williams, and I serve as the senior vice president for southern nuclear operating company, a subsidiary of southern company. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today about nuclear energy, which is critical to our nation's economy, energy security and national security.
▶ 0:37:28Southern company is an innovator in the commercial nuclear industry, having completed the first two next generation reactors in the united states in over 30 years at plant vogel units three and four, where we achieved approximately a 20% improvement in cost from the first to the second unit.
▶ 0:37:44Southern company is responding to the significant growth we are seeing in our footprint by optimizing our existing infrastructure and building new infrastructure, we are also capturing this growth for the benefit of all of our customers and ensuring that growth does not come at the expense of affordability. For example, our retail electric rates are more than 10% below the national average and have risen less than inflation over the last five years.
▶ 0:38:13In fact, our two largest subsidiaries, alabama power and georgia power, have implemented multi-year rate freezes to provide more certainty at a time when other costs are rising. The growing demand for electricity and the leadership of both congress and the administration has created great interest in new nuclear development, the safe and economic development of new nuclear power is essential to maintaining the united states global energy dominance policy,
▶ 0:38:43Such as the atomic energy advancement act, an initiative of this subcommittee, which later became the advance act, and the president's executive orders requiring regulatory reform at the nuclear regulatory commission, have positioned the nuclear industry to capitalize on the vogel experience to develop the next fleet of american commercial nuclear plants. We appreciate the efforts of both congress and the administration to usher in a new era of nuclear construction.
▶ 0:39:11However, there are still barriers to new nuclear development that need to be mitigated, including initial capital investment, tail risk associated with macroeconomic events, and substantial credit impact to the developer. I experience some of the macroeconomic events firsthand during my time on the vogel three and four construction project, for example, we experienced a tsunami and resulting nuclear accident in japan, which delayed our license.
▶ 0:39:38The bankruptcy of the prime contractor on the site and the covid 19 pandemic. Any one of these risks alone could have ended the project. But southern company, along with our co-owners commitment to bringing these units online for the benefit of our customers, combined with the efforts of congress, the georgia public service commission, the georgia state legislature, the department of energy, our labor partners, and both democrat and republican administrations made
▶ 0:40:10This project a reality. Today, both units are operating above the industry average and are serving our customers because of the construction of units three and four. The a.p. Vogel ap 1000 have been licensed, fully tested and have been operating successfully for several years, which largely eliminates regulatory and technology risk.
▶ 0:40:31Additionally, the administration and congress have also taken meaningful actions to mitigate the risk inherent in large scale project construction of first of a kind technology. That said, until we reach nth of a kind, which means the point where a technology and the nuclear construction industry in the us is mature, additional bipartisan support is needed to mitigate other barriers to entry for new nuclear development.
▶ 0:40:58With that in mind, in addition to the doe edf program loans, which will be critical to any new nuclear reactor, congress could promote the following legislative outcomes to help enable new nuclear development. First, enhance the itc's to moderate the large initial capital investments associated with the construction of new nuclear plants. Second, mitigate macroeconomic tail risk and third, allow more cash flow during construction through tax credit transferability.
▶ 0:41:30Chairman and ranking member castor, thank you for the opportunity to testify before the subcommittee today. Nuclear energy remains one of the most important tools for meeting unprecedented demand in a reliable and affordable way. The leadership and employees of southern company are committed to continuing to be part of the solution, so that we can deliver on the promise of american technology, as our company has been doing for over 100 years. >> well, thank you very much for your statement.
▶ 0:41:59And, miss greenwald, you are recognized for five minutes. >> chairman, ranking member castor and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify and for holding this hearing. My name is judy greenwald, and I'm the president and ceo of the nuclear innovation alliance. Nea is a nonprofit nonpartizan think and do tank. Our mission is to help create the conditions for success for new nuclear reactors, so they can play a major role as an energy security and climate solution.
▶ 0:42:31We focus our research and advocacy on nuclear regulatory commission modernization, federal and state policy, private investment and workforce development. Nuclear reactors help achieve a us energy system that's affordable, reliable and clean. Nuclear reactors also take up very little land, require minimal transmission buildout, deliver concentrated local economic benefits, and can provide industrial heat and power while reducing emissions.
▶ 0:42:57Together, these benefits offer something of value to stakeholders across the political spectrum. In the face of rapidly growing power, demand for data centers and other economic engines, nuclear energy is a clean, firm option. That means it can ensure 24 over seven reliability as well as climate progress. Despite recent reductions in federal support for other climate solutions.
▶ 0:43:22Because of these multiple attributes, nuclear is one of the few energy technologies that enjoys durable, bipartisan support. Maintaining that bipartisanship is essential to ensuring stable, policy, predictable investment environments, long term commercialization pathways that can withstand political cycles. As commercialization efforts accelerate, how we deploy and scale nuclear energy must reinforce its credibility.
▶ 0:43:47This means safeguarding regulatory integrity, transparency and public trust in the nrc. It also means adequate funding and staffing, as well as timely and effective implementation of the portfolio of nuclear commercialization policies and programs at the department of energy and across the federal government. Doe's loan guarantees, reactor demonstrations, and fuels programs merit a special, especially high priority.
▶ 0:44:13Also, the scale, pace, and ambition of new doe and dod reactor programs must be matched with robust oversight. The nrc boasts a dedicated, highly technical staff and a legacy of overseeing a remarkably safe nuclear industry. As an independent, bipartisan commission, it has a long history of remaining mission focused and relatively insulated from political pressure, strengthening its technical credibility, international respect, and public trust.
▶ 0:44:43Nia has long been an advocate for nrc to improve its efficiency while maintaining robust nuclear safety. We believe nrc can and must do both. This committee did tremendous work developing the advance act, which was signed into law in 2024. This statute directs nrc to improve reactor licensing efficiency, modernize environmental reviews, reduce reactor licensing fees, enhance workforce capacity, and revise its mission statement.
▶ 0:45:12It's critical that nrc fully implement this law and that congress conduct oversight to ensure its success. Government, industry and civil society must work together to sustain public support through transparent safety, rulemakings and practices. Reasonable costs, successful early mover projects, and community engagement.
▶ 0:45:32The world is moving quickly to commercialize new reactors, responsibly deploying us technologies at home strengthens our ability to lead abroad, set high standards and counter strategic competitors. This is a pivotal moment for nuclear energy. Major technological advances across public, private and academic sectors have driven progress. New reactor developers are introducing significant commercial innovations.
▶ 0:45:58Private financiers, along with industrial and data center energy users, are making major investments. Public support for nuclear energy is growing. We're in the midst of a remarkably positive policy environment.
▶ 0:46:12The secret to successful us energy innovation and commercialization has always been a whole of society effort, with private sector leadership and effective government enabling congress's enactment of a series of major laws over the past seven years, together with recent ambitious nuclear energy executive orders, has set the stage for success.
▶ 0:46:34This committee has played a crucial role in bringing us to where we are today, reflecting a shared commitment to innovation, energy, security, safety and environmental protection. I urge you to ensure, through the exercise of your legislative and oversight responsibilities, that the us government has the people, the resources and the public trust essential to enable new nuclear energy to play a major role in an affordable, reliable and clean us energy system. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:04>> thank you very much for your opening statement. And doctor wagner, you are recognized for five minutes. Chairman. >> ranking member castor and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. My name is john wagner. I'm the director of the idaho national laboratory, the nation's center for nuclear energy research and development. I'd like to note at the forefront, although I am the director of the laboratory, I'm not a federal employee, and I cannot speak for the department of energy.
▶ 0:47:32Throughout my long career so far, I have had the privilege of being involved with the design, analysis, and safety of a variety of nuclear technologies. From my early work in industry to my nearly 17 years at the oak ridge national laboratory before becoming the leader of the nation's nuclear laboratory, I have had a lot of experience in all aspects of this. And so again, I really appreciate this committee taking the interest in this topic.
▶ 0:48:01We stand at an unprecedented inflection point for american nuclear energy. For the first time in decades. Market forces, first time in my career, I'll say market forces, national security imperatives and federal policy have achieved remarkable alignment. The question is no longer whether america needs nuclear energy, but how much, how quickly and how to make it happen. The urgency cannot be overstated, as was mentioned by several who spoke before me.
▶ 0:48:30To put this in perspective, the united states commissioned over 100 nuclear power reactors between 1970 and 1990. Yet in the more than three decades since, we've brought on only two new reactors. Thank you to southern company us. While more than a dozen have shut down. Meanwhile, china and russia have advanced their nuclear capabilities and now account for 94% of all reactors under construction worldwide.
▶ 0:48:55China is on pace to surpass the us in nuclear generating capacity by 2030, the first time any nation will have exceeded the united states in nuclear capacity. We must reclaim nuclear leadership to achieve american energy dominance and project american values and standards globally.
▶ 0:49:15To do so, the administration has outlined the goal of expanding from 100 to 400gw of nuclear capacity by 2050, requiring power updates, reactor restarts, advanced reactor deployment, and at least ten new large reactors under construction by 2030. You.
▶ 0:49:33Congress, thankfully, has provided critical bipartisan support through landmark legislation the advance act prohibiting russian uranium imports act, and substantial investments through the infrastructure investments and job acts and the inflation reduction act.
▶ 0:49:47These achievements demonstrate remarkable bipartisan, bicameral alignment for nuclear energy at idaho national laboratory, where nuclear electricity was first demonstrated in 1951, real progress is happening under executive order 14 301. Doe established the reactor pilot program. Ten companies with 11 projects have been selected.
▶ 0:50:13We're accelerating progress towards deployment while maintaining our high levels of nuclear safety and nuclear security. And I'm and I am optimistic we will see three new reactors critical by july 4th of this year. For context, it's been nearly 50 years since a new reactor achieved first criticality at inl. It's 50 years.
▶ 0:50:35Our reactor testbeds are advancing rapidly, dome represented, which is a repurpose of the eb two containment structure, will be ready for its first demonstration system in april of this year. Lotus will host the molten chloride reactor experiment in 2028. Our marvel micro reactor, which was established, which has reestablished our ability to develop nuclear reactor systems, is targeting initial criticality this year.
▶ 0:51:01Project pele, the mobile microreactor for the department of defense, will begin testing in early 2028. Companies arlo and oklo broke ground at inl for their reactors this fall, this past fall. But of course, as others have mentioned, challenges remain. We need to build nuclear commercial power reactors at scale and we need to get started now. We need to continue building domestic fuel cycle capabilities.
▶ 0:51:27Notably, just this week, doe awarded $2.7 billion to expand domestic uranium enrichment capability. We need to continue progress on regulatory efficiency, and we need to update the nuclear waste policy act, which reflects priorities from four decades ago. I'd be remiss if I didn't emphasize that the state of the art research and development infrastructure is essential to achieving our goals.
▶ 0:51:52No other nation possesses facilities comparable to our test reactors, hot cells and fuel fabrication infrastructure, but these facilities are aging and are at capacity, so sustained investment is required. In closing, the technology exists, the market demand is real, the policy framework is emerging, and private investment has mobilized.
▶ 0:52:15At inl, we are rising to meet this moment, accelerating reactor demonstrations, strengthening fuel cycle expertise, developing workforce and embracing ai while maintaining an uncompromising commitment to safety and excellence. I want to thank you again for the opportunity to be before you today, and I look forward to your questions. >> well, thank you very much. And this will conclude the opening statements from our witnesses. And we will now go into the question and answer portion of the hearing from our members.
▶ 0:52:45I'll recognize myself for five minutes. And from the testimony, there are many positive developments on the nuclear front. It's clear the trump administration's actions focusing on nuclear offer potential for meaningful reform. If implemented properly. This without maybe just from a show of hands. Do you do you all agree with that statement? Thank you.
▶ 0:53:08Another quick question I always ask people in this committee real quickly, uh, does this country need to have more power or less power being produced? We have to have more or less, uh, this korzenik more. Mr. williams. >> we need more power. >> Mr. greenwald. More doctor wagner. Thank you. Success will require proper implementation and robust workforce and collaboration between the department of energy and the nuclear regulatory commission.
▶ 0:53:39Doctor wagner, will you speak to what you are seeing regarding collaboration between the doe and nrc on the regulatory front? >> yes, I can um, I'm seeing tremendous collaboration between the two agencies as they look into understanding.
▶ 0:53:56So maybe for context, I should say the department of energy has a set of requirements and structures to ensure the safety of nuclear systems operated on behalf of the department of energy that have been developed over a lot of years that are flexible relative to the different reactor types that the department of energy operates. In contrast, the nuclear regulatory has a different mission for commercial reactor power, and so they have a different set of regulations.
▶ 0:54:19And so as a number of the companies are working with the department of energy to demonstrate unique new systems that are going through the doe process. And and so the nrc is engaging in that process to understand those technologies and be better prepared. So when those technologies see the come to the nuclear regulatory commission, they will be prepared. So through a number of memorandums of understanding agreements on how they're partnering on these advanced reactor projects, I'm seeing tremendous positive cooperation.
▶ 0:54:51>> let me follow up with you. Do you see any any of the collaborations undermining the nrc's licensing expertise in any way? >> I am not aware of any. >> okay. Thank you. Uh, Mr. williams, uh, you note in your testimony that the second vogel unit was completed at 20% lower cost than took half the testing at startup. There are a number of potential new builds that are under consideration for ap1000, like at vogel.
▶ 0:55:17Can you outline how far costs could come down with 3 or 4 new builds? >> certainly, sir. Thank you for the question. You know, as as I mentioned, we did see significant cost reductions and schedule improvements from 3 to 4, which you expect as you implement a first of a kind technology, moving to second of a kind technology, moving on to third account, ultimately to end of account, we think there could be significant improvements.
▶ 0:55:45We think you would see similar savings of the for the next build of a of an ap 1000. And those savings would continue until you reach some equilibrium at 10th of a kind, that there was a report by the doe, uh, last year, the doe liftoff report that laid out some of that, uh, the estimates for cost completion. We we agree with that report in terms of the estimates for how costs, how far costs could come down for those units. >> we follow up with you.
▶ 0:56:11What would that mean for competitiveness with natural gas units? >> it is essential that the, um, that we reach those costs for, uh, us, as we do low cost system planning within our market structure. Uh, it's essential that we reach those costs for those technologies to be competitive with, for instance, natural gas. >> thank you.
▶ 0:56:38Uh, doctor wagner, uh, what are you seeing with respect to advances on reprocessing front and what policies may have to come to change to encourage cost effective reprocessing or recycling? >> so it's actually a very exciting area right now in terms of a number of private companies that are developing technologies that they think can make recycling commercially viable.
▶ 0:57:04Uh, so we're working with a number of those companies to develop, test and demonstrate those technologies that build on a legacy of technologies that have been developed by the national laboratories and beyond. And so there's a very active area that I could not have said existed even a few years ago, uh, in that space, in terms of policy reform, the nuclear waste policy act did not envision a commercial spent fuel recycling. And therefore, I would I would suggest that it needs to be revised to incentivize and support recycling.
▶ 0:57:36>> thank you. Uh, my time is about to expire, but I will submit the rest of my questions to you all. And at this time, I will now recognize recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, the gentlelady from florida, for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Doctor wagner, uh, thank you for going into greater detail on the, uh, the test demonstration nuclear reactors, uh, that are underway.
▶ 0:57:58Uh, you said ten companies and 11 projects are currently, um, shooting for this july 4th, 2026 goal. Can you go into greater detail? >> um, sure. And I would say that, um, there is a lot of detail out there, and I'd be happy to follow up with written detail if that would be helpful. >> would you would you, um, agree to come and brief the committee staff and committee members? >> of course I'd be. I'd be happy to. And thank you for asking for that.
▶ 0:58:27Um, would you like any a little bit more now or. Okay. All right. Um, so, uh, as you mentioned, the reactor pilot program was established out of the executive order by the department of energy. Um, and the goal is to have three new reactor systems critical by by july 4th of 2026. I would like to take a moment to say that. What does that mean? I get a lot of questions about what's criticality mean versus, say, commercial power generation? Criticality is a step in the in the pathway of a new system towards a power generation system.
▶ 0:58:57So it's a normal progression of the technology testing and demonstration that occurs. So it's sort of an early step in that process. Uh ten companies as you mentioned, have 11 different reactors that are shooting for this july 4th. Um, I doubt they will all make it. But the thing that's really exciting is that I do think, uh, three can make it and the others will follow quickly thereafter.
▶ 0:59:20So while july 4th is a major milestone, um, you know, there's an august and september and october that will follow, and I think we will see quite a number of these reactors again as their initial demonstration, um, in 2026, that will lead to commercial deployment. >> and how many of those projects are supported by the loan program office? >> um, I'm not aware that any of them are supported by the loan program office. I'll, you know, put a question. You know, I'm not aware. >> of the funding mix.
▶ 0:59:49Um, there private sector contributions versus, uh, us taxpayer. >> so they are um, there is some variations, but they are majority private sector funded. So when these projects were selected by the department of energy, what they sort of won was access to support and dewey licensing and facilities to the extent that we have it. But they are responsible for their own costs for these projects. >> great.
▶ 1:00:17Well, we'll look forward to, uh, the the detailed briefing moving. Thank you. Uh, Mr. greenwald, you mentioned in your testimony that historically, congress chose to separate out the role of the nuclear regulatory commission, ensuring the safety of nuclear reactors from the role of the department of energy, which conducts research and supports um, promotes the industry. Why is that separation important and how does it help maintain confidence in the safety of our civilian nuclear fleet?
▶ 1:00:48>> thank you for the question. It's all about public trust and the decision that was made to separate aec into, uh, sorry for the alphabet soup to nrc and what was then erda, which became doe, but to separate out the nrc to to with the agency that became doe, that was actually supported by both supporters and opponents of nuclear energy or people who are concerned about nuclear energy because they thought it would increase public trust in
▶ 1:01:18The technology. And they also thought it would give an opportunity to make the case both for and against particular technology decisions. So I think it was at the time this was in 1974, in the energy reorganization act, that that decision was made. >> what about today because of the the assault on the nrc, the kind of bigfooting by doe of the nrc, our safety regulatory agency? What is the risk going forward?
▶ 1:01:46>> so we definitely want to make sure that we maintain this separation and make, make maintain nrc's independence. And and that's we think it is highly important, as we have a paper that we're happy to provide.
▶ 1:01:59For the record, I may have included it a site in our testimony where we looked at the sort of history of the authorities that dod, doe, and nrc have had, and doe and dod have had authorities to oversee and authorize or, um, allow for projects for quite some time. And so they do have experience. They have some different rules and approaches, but it is possible for this to work out quite well.
▶ 1:02:28And as and I actually agree with doctor wagner that they're making progress on making sure that this goes well. And nrc. >> with my last 15 seconds. Do you are you concerned at all with the loss of professional and technical staff? Uh, at the nrc and doe? Doe has lost over 3500 uh, practice professional staff over the past year, including the office of nuclear energy. >> yes.
▶ 1:02:53This is, uh, you know, why I'm focusing so much on that in my testimony is that we really want to make sure that both doe and nrc are sufficiently staffed to capably exercise these responsibilities and, um, and implement these important programs. >> thank you very much. >> the gentlelady's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, the chair of the full committee for five minutes for questions. >> thank you very much.
▶ 1:03:17I remember I'm old enough to remember back in the 1970s when those bills were passed and, um, movies like the china syndrome and those kind of things came out. I was a kid during the time, but but I remember it. I remember, um, the fear that people had some legitimate I had some issues that but that was also stoked. And it set us back as, as developing our nuclear energy. And so, uh, what we need to make sure people know that, that there is a regulatory structure in place, there is technology in place, it's a different world.
▶ 1:03:47And people ask me all the time, can, uh, can smrs, for instance, be, um, safe. And I say, well, every, uh, you, you put smrs next to the most deadliest payload known to mankind, put a bunch of the best in the world. Well, the best would go to the army, but the second best in the world, the navy. I'm kidding. I love the navy. Uh, think about 18 to 25 year olds, put them underwater and send them around the world. You got 18, 25 year olds running it. Governed or commanded by 35 to 40 year olds.
▶ 1:04:15And so, uh, we can do this. We can do it well, and we need to do it and do it well. So, Mr. williams, um, you were just directly involved with the nrc, nuclear regulatory commission, the construction of the units. Uh, can you speak briefly where the nrc was a problem in that process? And what is your current experience with nrc given the reforms? >> sure. Thanks for your question, congressman. You know, I can say as we built vogel three and four, we said that safety and quality was our most important, um, priority during that project.
▶ 1:04:44We did we did that and have demonstrated that through its operation. I can say that throughout the construction, we had a more than 150,000 inspection hours by the nuclear regulatory commission of the construction process. But at no point in time did there, um, oversight. Was it part of the challenges that we experienced at vogtle three and four?
▶ 1:05:08It was it was constructive and they provided the necessary oversight necessary to make sure I would say in in recent experience related to our operation, we continue to see a strong regulator. Um, we have our resident inspectors on site performing oversight of our day to day activities. We have a robust and challenging discussions with the staff at the commission for license amendments that are there. So we continue to see a very strong regulation.
▶ 1:05:37>> that's good because we need that, because we need people to have confidence that we can do this, and that's when we absolutely have to have that. So last year, secretary rice said the us is ushering in a true nuclear renaissance meeting. This demand will require strong partnership with our allies and collaboration with the private sector innovators. So miss courtney korzenik and Mr. williams, miss korzenik first, uh, and then both of you answered this.
▶ 1:06:00Significant investments in us nuclear fuel are currently underway, and additional funding for projects has been announced this week by doe, including two in paducah, kentucky. Nevertheless, uh, we'll continue. There's the question. We'll continued supply of fuel service from closely allied nations like canada, the uk, europe continue to be important to the operation of us nuclear fleet for the next generation. So we will is it going to be important that we work with our allies to get this done? >> absolutely.
▶ 1:06:28Uh, you need a diversified fuel supply and, um, and working with our allies on both natural uranium as well as conversion and enrichment, I think is critical going forward. >> thank you. Mr. williams. >> I agree completely with miss courtney. >> okay. And so this is for all of you.
▶ 1:06:46We start with, uh, since you guys have answered, miss greenwald, with the growth of ai in advanced manufacturing demand, combined with congressional action to streamline licensing, what opportunities are you seeing for changing some of our approaches to regulation or financing and help deployment? Miss greenwald, do you have any comments on that? And then we'll do doctor wagner. >> yeah, so actually, you're doing a lot on ai. I'll just say very briefly.
▶ 1:07:08So we see ai helping in both directions or being extremely relevant in sort of both sides of this issue. One, it's creating a lot of energy demand, and it needs a lot of reliable power, and nuclear energy can provide that. Also, ai provides a lot of tools to do things more efficiently, and we can apply that in the design process and the licensing process and in the operations process to make sure that we can use these artificial intelligence tools to do all of this work better and more efficiently.
▶ 1:07:39>> thank you. Doctor wagner. >> I think miss greenwald said it. Well, you know, ai needs nuclear power to for us to enable continued U.S. leadership in the ai for our infrastructure. And we see a lot of opportunities that we're pursuing now for ai to accelerate nuclear energy design analysis, safety reviews, and and ultimate manufacturing and operations. So we're looking at ai tools and capabilities and robotics across that entire spectrum. As a national laboratory.
▶ 1:08:09That's the type of things that we do. >> thank you. And my time is almost expired. So I'll yield back. Thank you. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey, the ranking member of the full committee for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, one of the most alarming ways that the nrc's independence has been undermined, and I talked about this in my opening remarks, is the presence of staffers affiliated with doge and the department of energy who aren't responsible to anyone at the nrc.
▶ 1:08:38But unfortunately, the department of energy has refused to answer any of our questions on this topic. So let me go to miss greenwald. I thought you gave an excellent answer to ranking member castor on the importance of separating nrc and doe's roles. Could you talk about how full transparency from the department of energy on its role in the licensing process is important to public confidence in the licensing process?
▶ 1:09:06>> yes, we do think that transparency is one of the hallmarks of achieving public trust, and we would like to see more transparency about the role of doe staffers at nrc. We also think, actually on the issue around these doe authorization of reactors, which is a something that has happened for a long time but isn't hasn't happened in the past as often and is with as great of pace and intensity is
▶ 1:09:38Happening now, is really important that doe be more transparent than perhaps it has been used to historically. And we actually think doe has a pretty good story to tell and that they should be transparent about it. For example, they're actually borrowing and rc is lending 12 staffers from nrc to help doe with these reviews, and then they're doing it independently.
▶ 1:10:02And then it will come back when, when this reactor, if it becomes commercial and it goes to nrc for licensing, then the nrc will have institutional knowledge and also be able to make its independent decision about whether this design is ready for commercial application. >> thank you. Now, you also mentioned your written testimony that and I quote, eroding public trust and agencies like nrc and dewey would set industry back not spurred forward. And to quote.
▶ 1:10:28So again would you talk about why it's so important that the public have confidence in both the nrc and doe and how the survival of the nuclear industry depends entirely upon public confidence that the industry is safe. >> yeah, and I think this has been a long standing situation for this, this industry and for the public that there's this mutual benefit of having an independent regulator and a successful industry.
▶ 1:10:54The industry needs that seal of approval for it to have social license to operate and to have public support. It also really helps us in our role in the world to make sure that we can export technology, because the nrc seal of approval really helps companies to be able to have a trusted technology that they can sell abroad, as well as at home. >> I think the point you're making is very important. So I just wanted to make sure everyone here agrees on the panel.
▶ 1:11:21Just a quick yes or no from each of our remaining witnesses. Do you think it's vital to the american nuclear industry that the general public thinks it's safe and has confidence in the government's nuclear safety regulators? And if you would just answer yes or no? I'll start with miss carson. >> yes, absolutely. >> all right, Mr. williams. >> yes. >> and lastly, doctor wagner. >> yes. >> all right. Well, I think that's good to hear.
▶ 1:11:48I just hope that the white house and the department of energy are listening. I mean, the the problem that I see is that, um, you know, the the trump administration's actions undermine the independence of, of nrc. And it's really alarming to me how much they've tried to do that and have succeeded in doing it.
▶ 1:12:06And I just I just want to reiterate again, if the trump administration and the doe do not stop undermining the independence of our safety regulator, nuclear, you know, in the case of nrc, uh, there's no longer going to be bipartisan support. I mean, you know, there are a lot of people out there, um, in my district and elsewhere that just don't want nuclear energy. And I've been supportive of it, and we've been supportive of it as democrats, mostly on a bipartisan basis.
▶ 1:12:35But all that is linked to safety. If anything happens that, you know, that gives the impression or actually makes it so that people's lives are at risk, or we have some kind of incident that's going to be the end of it. We I'll speak for myself. We won't be able to support it anymore. So, you know, that's why this is so crucial. That's why I keep bringing it up. It's just crucial.
▶ 1:12:58And I just like the president trump's administration, just like willy nilly, seem to think, oh, none of this matters, and we'll do this or that and lack of transparency. All this is very detrimental in my point, in my opinion, to the future of nuclear energy, which is so important as a clean energy source for, you know, the mixture. Um, so that's why I keep emphasizing. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you.
▶ 1:13:24The gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the vice chair of the subcommittee, the gentleman from texas, for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Doctor wagner, I'm going to come to you and welcome back again. We're glad to have you here.
▶ 1:13:38Uh, as chairman of the subcommittee, energy in the space science and technology, I'm extremely focused on the work of our 17 national laboratories, so specifically at idaho national lab, can you expand on the work being done at the fuel cycle facility, and how these efforts can actually lead to developments in the reprocessing and management of spent nuclear fuel? >> yes. Thank you, vice chairman. Uh, weber, and thank you for your support of the national laboratories. It's a pleasure to be here and to see you.
▶ 1:14:08Um, and thanks for the question. And because it allows me to to get into that area a little bit more in terms of fuel recycling. So while we don't, as a nation, recycle commercial spent nuclear fuel, uh, at the laboratory, we've been recycling spent nuclear fuel for for many, many decades now. What's the difference? The difference is, is that these are department of energy's reactor spent nuclear fuel, not commercial spent nuclear fuel. And so that's been our focus.
▶ 1:14:35And so at the fuel conditioning facility that you referred to, what we're doing there is we are recycling spent experimental breeder reactor two fuel. So back from the from the 90s and prior. This is high enriched uranium. So this is actually very valuable material. Um and so what we do there is we separate the uranium from the remainder of the material.
▶ 1:14:57And so that what we end up with is high enriched uranium, we down blend that with natural uranium to below 20 weight percent, something called high assay low enriched uranium or halo, which you hear about from time to time. And why is that important? One, it turns a waste product into a valuable commodity for advanced reactor testing and demonstration.
▶ 1:15:17And specifically, part of that material is going to be fabricated at the materials and fuels complex at the laboratory for close first reactor demonstration on our site. When we're done recycling all of the material from eb2, we will result in nearly ten metric tons of high assay leu.
▶ 1:15:37Given that we don't currently generate significant quantities of high value in this country, although we're working to change that, this is really important material for testing new reactors. >> uh, well, thanks for that. Uh, there is some companies out there. Are you familiar with the curio company, one that is working on reprocessing all this stuff, even on a global scale. So we want to make sure that, you know, we we hit the market with we'll have companies and, and be able to work on that. Are you. Yes.
▶ 1:16:07>> I am and we are working with curio and we're working with several other companies that are developing, you know, maybe, maybe let me say as well, we invented recycling in this country. We often talk about other countries recycling, but we developed those technologies. >> smokey the bear did back in the 60s. Keep going. >> okay, I'm not sure about that. >> I know. >> but at any rate.
▶ 1:16:28So what's happening now is that while we've been recycling doe owned materials, companies like curio and others are innovating on how to improve those processes to enable commercial recycling to be economically viable. And that's a really great development to see. >> no. You bet. And glad to see that. Uh, miss, I'm going to come to you.
▶ 1:16:46Within president trump's recent executive orders focused on nuclear energy, a national goal was set to have ten new large nuclear reactors under construction by 2030 and to expand us nuclear energy capacity from approximately 100gw today to 400gw by 2050.
▶ 1:17:05While the administration has indicated that advanced reactors include including generation three plus reactors like small modular reactors, smrs excuse me will be critical in reaching these goals. No national target for deployment for this reactor technology has been established. What can congress do to set a level playing field to make that happen? >> well, they set the goal to quadruple.
▶ 1:17:34So I guess that's really the target that we're that we're going after. That was sent, uh, in the, in the executive orders. I think, uh, as you all know, I think deployment, uh, is going to be challenging. But through all of the testimony that you've heard today, you can appreciate that we're laying the groundwork for large scale deployment. And I think we will have significant deployment in the 2030s and 2040s. >> are you aware and this is really a question for all of the panelists.
▶ 1:18:00Are you aware that there are some there's many maybe public and some political organizations, even elected officials, uh, who raise unfounded concerns about that goal. Are you aware of that? >> concerns about what? >> sir, they're hitting that goal we're talking about. >> well, I think there's concerns just because it's so hard, right? It's an incredibly aggressive goal. And I think we shouldn't, in my opinion, get wrapped around do we meet that number. The point is the the pursuit of that number is driving the right behavior.
▶ 1:18:31>> we can do it safely and clean. We can't we? That's right. Let the record show that. Mr. chairman, I yield back my time. >> thank you very much. Gentleman. Yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from california's 50th district for five minutes for questions. And I mentioned a little bit earlier we are going to take a recess to go over for some members can attend the hearing and then return promptly at 1245 to resume. Gentleman is recognized for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to start by thanking the chairman of the committee, Mr.
▶ 1:19:00Guthrie, for acknowledging doug lamalfa. Uh, my classmate and fellow californian. He was well regarded by everyone on both sides of the aisle, very well liked and very well respected. And we're going to miss him. And we want to send our love and prayers to his family. Um, so for today, we need to address the serious problems facing our grid significant load growth, extreme weather, cyber and physical threats. Um, our grid is old, it's small and it's dumb.
▶ 1:19:30And nuclear energy will play a strong role in making it bigger, newer and smarter. We have a lot of work to do. I just want to call attention to the san onofre nuclear generating station, or songs just outside my district in san diego, the spent nuclear fuel there is within 100ft of the pacific ocean, sits near dense population centers and active military base and multiple fault lines. Um, it's definitely not an ideal place for it to be. What happens to that?
▶ 1:19:57Nuclear fuel matters greatly to my district and my constituents, along with many others around the country, know we need long term solutions for spent nuclear fuel storage. The nuclear refuel act, which chairman latta and I introduced last congress, would streamline the development of advanced nuclear while addressing the storage issue by making it easier to reprocess and recycle spent fuels for continued use. Beyond domestic supply and security. We need to maintain our position as a global leader in nuclear energy development. The bipartisan advance act was a good start.
▶ 1:20:26We have to do more. Unfortunately, a key aspect of my global nuclear energy and assessment and cooperation act, which would have authorized doe to train foreign energy experts in allied countries, was removed from the advance act. Um, if our goal is to build american leadership in the nuclear energy space and to compete across the globe with russia and china to help other countries build reactors and meet their energy needs, we have to ensure those countries have the expertise required to maintain and operate those nuclear reactors responsibly.
▶ 1:20:57And it should go without saying, but I guess this week it doesn't go without saying that we need allies around the world to be able to win this war with china and russia, and we ought not to take those alliances for granted, let alone, um, uh, do things that would be absolutely inconsistent with friendship.
▶ 1:21:17Um, we have to focus on how we can work with our allies to figure out how to make nuclear leadership in nuclear energy, how to project nuclear american leadership, instead of allowing our competitors to flood the zone with dirty and dated reactors. Miss greenwald, can you just talk a little bit about the technical and economic barriers that hold back spent fuel recycling, which would address some of the growing spent fuel concerns we have? >> certainly. Thank you for the question, and thank you for your leadership on all of these legislative efforts.
▶ 1:21:45We really appreciate your thoughtful approach to these issues. We actually have a great report for you, which is a thing I say a lot at nia, and it's called recycling reconsidered, and I highly recommend it to you. And maybe it's a great title for a hearing. Basically, what's happened over the past few decades since the us decided not to pursue recycling is that we've seen a lot of change.
▶ 1:22:10We've seen a lot of technology innovation, we've seen a lot of businesses who are interested in using the isotopes that are embedded in these in in spent nuclear fuel and doing and using it for good purposes, like medical uses and other industrial demands. So we actually see a lot of change. And so I think it is time to look again and see whether we can do a good job of recycling with different types of approaches, different technical approaches, different business approaches.
▶ 1:22:39We certainly anything that we would have to do on recycling, we would have to make sure that it meets safeguards, robust safeguards and security standards. >> and those are sort of good comments or sort of general. Are there specific things you'd like to see the country do to help support recycling? >> yeah. Why don't we have in this report that I'll be happy to get to you?
▶ 1:23:00One of the recommendations, for example, we have is we think the loan program office should actually be open to lending to the development of these types of technologies. We think that would be a very we're big on innovation at nia, and that would be a great way to, um, prompt this innovation. We also understand that the administration is working on a total spent fuel strategy, including, um, recycling. And we have made recommendations in that report that we hope will inform their work.
▶ 1:23:29And so having a strategy broadly and also some specific things they could do. >> I think there's some concern on this committee about, um, investing in innovation for mature technologies. This is one where I think would benefit the country and take a lot of pressure off places like san onofre and other and others. Um, Mr. chairman, thank you for the hearing. And I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back the balance of his time. And as I mentioned earlier, the subcommittee will stand in recess until 1245. Thank you.
▶ 2:46:15I'd like to resume our subcommittee hearing. And at this time, the chair recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from ohio's 12th district. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you all for being here today. It's very important. Before I get to my questions, I just like to touch on the funding announcement on monday from the department of energy, which doctor wagner mentioned in his written, written testimony.
▶ 2:46:38This announcement includes an award of $900 million with centrist energy to expand uranium enrichment in piketon, ohio, which is actually in congressman dave taylor's district. I'm a little north of there, up in central ohio, so I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank our national labs and labs and the department of energy and say that I'm very excited for ohio's role as a leader in nuclear energy innovation and securing our domestic nuclear
▶ 2:47:08Energy supply. So thank you for mentioning that, doctor wagner. My first question is for Mr. williams. Mr. williams, thank you for being here. To understand the challenges for building nuclear reactors, it's important we hear from somebody who built them, Mr. williams. I'll direct my first question to you. Your testimony details some of the lessons learned with plant bottle vogel and the significant efficiencies gained on unit four.
▶ 2:47:34Once unit three was completed, can you explain some these lessons learned in more detail, and how southern company plans to support other companies that are interested in pursuing nuclear development? >> thank you for your question, congressman. I think I'll start by saying, you know, we did see we had a robust lessons learned program at at the project during construction.
▶ 2:47:59Um, making sure that as we learn things, as we did them the first time on unit three, that changes were made and implemented on unit four. That's how we saw the 20% reduction in costs. That's how we saw the reduction in there. The big areas where we saw, uh, much of the the improvement was around electrical installation.
▶ 2:48:19And so and I think it's, you know, you just think about it from if you're if you're building something the first time and you're going to do it a second time, maybe you're putting together shelves from ikea or something like that. That second time is going to be a lot faster than the first time. And that's exactly what we saw at at vogel, and really definitely in the area of electrical installation where we laser map the rooms and essentially replicated those installations on unit four. That was how we did that.
▶ 2:48:46We have all of that information, and we're sharing that with anyone who wants to build new nuclear, both in the united states and abroad, to make sure that they get all the lessons that we learned so that they can have a leg up in terms of their construction. >> thank you. Um, follow up, the ohio's 12th congressional district, which is where I represent, includes a significant number of data centers.
▶ 2:49:10There were over 130 data data centers already operating in central ohio, with many more looking to be constructed in the coming months and years. Nuclear energy is an important baseload energy source that will be critical to helping power new demand from these facilities and ensuring reliability for our constituencies. That said, building new nuclear involves very high capital costs, which may rise affordability concerns. What are utilities like the southern company doing to protect affordability?
▶ 2:49:42>> so affordability is our north star at southern company, as I mentioned in our discussions, we are we are focused on we have we've frozen rates in georgia and alabama. We're trying to keep rates as low as possible. And that's part of the reasons why we've laid out some of the solutions today in our testimony about things that are that can help bring down those barriers to new project construction.
▶ 2:50:03We are absolutely focused on, um, making sure that we can work with, um, within our market structure. We work with our customers, we work with public private partnerships, which was critical to the vogel build, that all of those things come together to make sure that we can put forth a solution for building new nuclear that is affordable for our customers. That is going to be critical.
▶ 2:50:30>> okay, I'm follow up a little bit, just from the standpoint of I talked about our constituencies, um, these new nuclear facilities, how would they work out in the long run for our ratepayers? >> so there are a lot of benefits of nuclear generation to our ratepayers. Um, first and foremost, they're 24 over seven. They are baseload generation and capacity for our customers. They provide fuel stability and they have low operating costs.
▶ 2:50:57So our in our market, when our nuclear units are running, our customers are paying less for the electricity that they receive than they otherwise would. Those benefits. Absolutely. Over the 60 to 80 year life of that plant provide significant benefit to our customers. >> okay. Thank you. And, Mr. chairman, I'll submit the rest of my questions I yield back. Thank you. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chairman.
▶ 2:51:26Over the past year, we've watched president trump continually attack our federal agencies and their staff, actively hamstringing their ability to carry out their critical missions and service to our country. And all the while, house republicans have sat by idly and let it happen. On this committee, we've heard house republicans loudly proclaim the need for more energy to keep up with demand from ai data centers and to compete with foreign adversaries. Some argue for an all of the above energy strategy, but only when it's convenient for them.
▶ 2:51:53Suddenly, when the conversation turns to connecting clean, renewable energy to the grid and actually addressing the need for more energy, they don't want an all the above strategy anymore. I think everyone on this committee can agree that nuclear energy poses significant safety, risk and environmental concerns for the american people that we must address.
▶ 2:52:13Regardless of your stance on nuclear, this is just a plain and simple fact, miss greenwald, just yes or no isn't the role of the nuclear regulatory commission to ensure that nuclear reactors can operate safely? >> yes. >> so, in other words, the nrc keeps our community safe. Is that correct? >> yes. Although I know you like yes or no, but it's also in partnership with the industry. The industry has a huge role in ensuring safety. >> I appreciate that. Thank you.
▶ 2:52:41And can you briefly touch on how nrc's independence helps to achieve that goal? >> thanks for the question. As I said in my testimony, we really do think that having the public trust is really important. That provides the industry with social license to operate, and it's good for our country. We really need this technology, and we need for the public to feel that it's appropriately overseen by us, by a competent regulator. >> and an independent regulator.
▶ 2:53:10>> yes, and the independence has been a long standing, um, tool to achieve that public trust, because the public now has confidence that the nrc is making their decisions independently. They are making their best technical judgment. It's a highly technical staff. They are very careful and to make sure that industry is making a good safety case for their technologies and that they are doing what they're supposed to do, and that's through licensing, inspection and oversight. >> perfect. I want to continue off of that.
▶ 2:53:38But unfortunately, we've seen this administration blatantly go after nrc's independence, which jeopardizes the safety of nuclear energy. Since taking office, president trump illegally fired nrc commissioner hansen, years before his term ended, has made other commissioners feel as though they could be fired at any moment if they go against the administration, set expectations that nrc would rubber stamp reactor designs given to them by the administration, issued several executive orders targeting nrc installed dosage staff, nrc to bypass commissioners and push
▶ 2:54:09Out senior staff who are critical for nrc operations. That's in addition to cuts to department of energy staff who are responsible for nuclear energy programs. None of this helps ensure that the deployment of nuclear technology is safe for the american people. Nor does it help the nuclear industry in any way. To your point, all it does is set us back on meeting our energy goals. Miss greenwald, I know you mentioned this in your testimony, but I want our committee members to hear it again. You made clear earlier that nrc independence is essential to safety.
▶ 2:54:37Just yes or no. Does bipartisan policy help us meet our energy goals? >> absolutely. >> thank you. And what about adequate staffing levels at nrc and doe? >> absolutely. Super important. >> that's the exact opposite of what this administration and house republicans are doing.
▶ 2:54:56We aren't having good faith bipartisan discussions in this committee, because that requires our colleagues across the aisle to speak out when this administration is undermining the things that we know are helpful for our nuclear energy policy. They've sat here and done nothing about the president's firing of federal staff or any of the attacks on nrc's independence.
▶ 2:55:16So, again, if we need an all the above strategy, why are house republicans allowing this administration to hamstring an agency that can help us achieve energy dominance through an all the above strategy? And if it is, and it isn't just energy policy that house republicans refuse to hold the president accountable for, it's on everything from health care, which we saw here during reconciliation, and the immense cuts to medicaid, to ai, to the rising affordability crisis, which the president has deemed a democratic hoax.
▶ 2:55:44And this is after the president gave himself an a plus plus, plus, plus on his handling of the economy. When you talk to our constituents, we know that they are struggling. We know that energy prices are a part of that problem, but our colleagues refuse to hold the president accountable. So how can we expect to have a meaningful bipartisan discussion on critical safety issues while house republicans completely ignore the harmful actions of this president?
▶ 2:56:08There's a complete lack of accountability on this committee and the house at large, and it's hurting the american people, and it will continue to hurt the american people with a reckless erosion of the independence of agencies such as the nrc. It's a shame. With that, I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from iowa's first, I'm sorry, from tennessee's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 2:56:35Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Um, as you know, tennessee has an incredible history dating back to the manhattan project. And we're proud to keep that tradition alive. Uh, in my district in east tennessee, we produce a nuclear fuel for the navy and support other nnsa critical mission areas.
▶ 2:56:57And last year, the department awarded a major contract in my district for the production of high purity depleted uranium, which is an important, uh, national security initiative. And as I understand it, the depleted uranium is 40% less radioactive than natural uranium. And that the resulting waste for this, uh, contract will be solidified and transported off site. And I want to make sure that this is safe for the community where it's going to be transported to.
▶ 2:57:27So my question is for miss korzenik, uh, for my constituents, can you describe what the industry safety standards are for handling nuclear materials and how they relate to actual radiation risk? Absolutely. I guess I can share, um, just maybe broadly with my many years of experience in the industry where we have handled nuclear fuel of all different types. Um, fuel is always managed with a high level of reverence.
▶ 2:57:56Um, and so I can share with you that, uh, the processes that will be used are not only, um, really carefully followed by the company that's doing them, but has a strong degree of oversight as well. Um, and the nrc manages oversight for fuel facilities as well, just like they do, uh, power plants.
▶ 2:58:16Um, and there are strict rules and regulations that are around that and not only at the facility, but for the transportation of that to ensure that it's all done very safely and with sufficient shielding, that it will not have effect on the local community. You know, you just want to make your residents feel safe. Absolutely. I appreciate that under the leadership of president trump and secretary rice, we are seeing how the federal government can propel our domestic supply chain forward instead of hindering innovation.
▶ 2:58:47And doctor wagner, you said this earlier. You mentioned the department of energy announced the $2.7 billion to strengthen the domestic enrichment services of low enriched uranium and high assay, low enriched uranium. That means we're not only going to build those nuclear plants, but we're going to fuel. And it'll be american, too.
▶ 2:59:07So my question and I can ask you this, doctor wagner, how does this shift to a fully domestic fuel supply chain improve us national security and energy independence? >> so in a lot of ways, and thank you for the question, by the way, um, and the proud history of tennessee relative to nuclear energy and nuclear security.
▶ 2:59:25And, uh, I would start by saying that almost all of our uranium that is used in our commercial power reactors is coming from overseas, some from allied nations and some from not, uh, on order of 20 to 25% of our material has been coming from russia. That puts a dependency on a on allied nation. I'll just say. Yeah. And and critical to not only our current operations of our reactors, but certainly any expansion in future growth.
▶ 2:59:51And so this investment in enrichment, domestic enrichment capability that we basically let atrophy over over several decades as we relied on foreign countries, um, fixing that is going to take some time and some money. Um, and so this is a huge, huge step forward to ensuring our domestic fuel supply. So I'm really pleased to see those announcements this week. >> me too.
▶ 3:00:13Do you forecast any challenges we might have to navigate to ensure that these federal investments in halo, uh deconversion and enrichment services interact effectively with private sector planning as we advance reactors and we move from the demonstration to the deployments, like, um, you know, there's overlapping timelines there. >> I would say there's a there's a couple points here.
▶ 3:00:37One is is, as you probably are well aware, is a bit of a time mismatch, particularly on the production of high assay, low enriched uranium. Right now in the us there's only one company that's able to do that, and it's at a very small scale. And so that needs to scale up. Meanwhile we have an active advanced reactor, uh, deployment set of companies that need that material now. And so one of the challenges the department has is how to fill those near-term needs in this in this time mismatch, if you will. And again, that's why it's so important that those awards were done this week.
▶ 3:01:07The other aspects of it is more just normal commercial infrastructure, construction, job supply chain and so forth that they'll have to work through. >> just takes time, just takes time to rebuild what's been degraded. So with that, Mr. chairman, my time is almost up and I'll submit questions for the record. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back in the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from virginia's fourth district. Five minutes for questions. >> uh, thank you, chairman and ranking member, for holding this very important hearing.
▶ 3:01:36And thank you to our witnesses, uh, safe and well regulated nuclear energy has to be a key part of any energy strategy that seeks to increase capacity and affordability to meet our growing energy needs. I think all of the witnesses have spoken to that. Um, and this hearing takes an important step in shaping that strategy. However, we can't ignore the context in which this hearing is taking place.
▶ 3:01:59While, uh, the chairman and the republicans on this committee have said they support and all of the above energy policy to generate enough energy to meet all of our demands, they've sat idly by while the trump administration undermines the department of energy and the nuclear regulatory commission, eviscerates their staffs and snares our nation in regime change in venezuela at taxpayer expense, and in an effort to exploit that country's heavy crude oil reserves and canceled,
▶ 3:02:30Canceled or paused dozens of major clean energy projects that would have dramatically increased our energy production capacity, including the virginia coastal offshore wind project paused over the break, which was estimated to be completed later this year and generate up to 2.6gw of power when fully operational. To support the fastest growing part of america's energy grid, producing 9.5 million megawatt hours annually, or enough to power over 900 virginia homes.
▶ 3:03:00At a time when this committee talks about the importance of permitting reform, this pause has left a major electric supplier in virginia wondering if they can even rely on the permits once they get them. So you can understand why I'm a little skeptical that under the current administration, we can be truly prepared to make safe nuclear energy a serious part of our energy strategy. But I'm hopeful that we can do so.
▶ 3:03:22So, miss greenwald, you established for the ranking members the importance of the nrc's independence. How could efforts to undermine the nrc's independence negatively impact the nuclear energy industry and our ability to quickly roll out new technology in the nuclear space and keep up with nuclear plants being deployed by our rivals? >> thank you for the question, congresswoman.
▶ 3:03:49I do think I've said this already, but I'm happy to say it again. We do think that the independence is very important, our really important thing for, from our perspective, is to make sure that we have public trust in nuclear deployment. And we really think that having a competent nrc that's well staffed, that is independent in a number of ways, as as you may recall from my testimony, there's another a number of aspects of independence that we need to think about.
▶ 3:04:18And it's very important that the nrc is transparent, competent, well staffed and does its job well. That's in all of our interests. >> and on transparency, you have mentioned that changes to the nrc's rulemaking process decreased transparency and raised serious concerns about stakeholder ability to engage in the rulemaking process.
▶ 3:04:37And I can tell you, we have seen firsthand on a number of energy projects that the minute that you lose public trust and the transparency of the process, uh, that project is going to be opposed, whether it's a good idea or not. And so can you elaborate on your concerns about this decrease in transparency? >> yeah, the there's a couple of issues.
▶ 3:05:01The specific issue is that there's a new executive order separate from the executive orders that focus on, uh, accelerating deployment of new nuclear energy and us leadership in nuclear energy. And that applies to all agencies that were formerly considered independent, at least some still hopefully still independent. It depends on how the courts deal with this.
▶ 3:05:22But, um, basically all of those agencies are newly under a process whereby their rulemakings are reviewed by the white house office of management and budget, and they have an office called oira, which is the office of information and regulatory affairs.
▶ 3:05:39And that process introduces several rulemaking steps that mean that the public and the stakeholders won't see certain processes that normally in the past, we've seen as the as the rules go through the nrc, so we won't see things that get to the commission and we won't see various steps. We think that it would be much better if we maintain transparency.
▶ 3:06:02There may be other ways to do this, but we think it's very important that stakeholders, industry folks like us, who have an interest in in the success of the nuclear sector, have an opportunity to weigh in. We think that makes the rules better. We think that having good, uh, stakeholder engagement, effective, timely, um, we're all, I think, willing to quickly review things, but we definitely have to have sufficient time.
▶ 3:06:31So I think that's the the concern. And we think it's actually solvable with creative solutions and making sure we actually pay attention to the importance of this. >> thank you I yield back. >> thank you very much. The general lady's time has expired yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia's 12th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, chair, for holding this important hearing on the future of nuclear energy. I want to thank the witnesses for being here to testify.
▶ 3:06:59John, it's great to see you, as always. Uh, uh, and our great partner, southern company in the state of georgia. Uh, nuclear energy is a pivotal role to play in reclaiming american energy dominance. Uh, you know, I think it should be. No question about that.
▶ 3:07:17As the largest clean energy site in the united states, plant vogel and georgia's 12th district is leading the way in our nation's nuclear future, where units three and four, the first two nuclear energy units to be built in the united states in over three decades, a fully operational and providing a stable baseload, baseload supply of electricity to georgia homes and businesses. And again, I want to shout out to the southern company and georgia power for uh, uh, it was tough, but we got it done.
▶ 3:07:50And, uh, and boy, those things are humming. Also, uh, getting in the gas business was I've been I've been to the gas facilities as well. Generating facilities. Uh, down in effingham county. And, um, so, uh, it's an all a all of the above approach. And, uh, just thank you for your, uh, foresight and your company and what they have done for our state. Uh, it. Mr.
▶ 3:08:18I have to be formal here, Mr. williams, as you know, I'm a proud supporter of plant vogel. What it means to georgia. Georgia's been ranked the best state to do business in for over a decade, and the state of georgia is delivering on this administration's top priorities of energy dominance and affordability. We're providing abundant energy to serve data centers.
▶ 3:08:40Uh, we're in a race for ai critical race, uh, and while also protecting the pocketbooks of everyday americans, we have the lowest, some of the lowest, most, uh, rates in the country. I think there are states.
▶ 3:08:53Energy market structure has a lot to do with that success, and has helped us avoid many of the issues and that are other parts of the country that are experiencing, like new england and california, where you cannot get a natural gas pipeline built, or the pjm region where prices are skyrocketing and there's not enough power to cover, uh, the reliability requirements. With all that in mind, how did georgia's energy market structure enable it to build plant vogel, get in the gas business? And why is energy?
▶ 3:09:22Why is the energy market structure important to new nuclear development? >> thank you for the question, congressman. And we have appreciated your support of our vogel project during these many years of construction. As you know, our market structure was critical in bringing the vogel units online for the benefit of our customers. Uh, our vertically integrated, state regulated structure is why the southeast remains open for business, while many others around the country have have had to close.
▶ 3:09:51Um, nuclear generation is more capital intensive upfront, and it requires long construction times. And it's that holistic planning process that's brought about by that vertically integrated, state regulated process that allows us to look into the future in a transparent way with our customers and all the stakeholders in the state, and choose the best energy options for our customers over the next 20 plus years.
▶ 3:10:18Um, financing for these projects is challenging. That vertically integrated structure provides us the necessary, um, uh, markets that we need. We're not we're not relying on short term market signals. We're relying on how are we going to serve our customers for the long term. So quite simply, our market structure was critical. >> right. And of course, you know, you talked about the capital requirements for these plants. But when they're running it's the most efficient way to produce electricity by far. Right. >> that's correct.
▶ 3:10:48>> um, can you explain the difference between the ap1000 technology and other technologies that we hear about, like the smrs? >> yeah, thanks for that question as well. Uh, we are, uh, there's tons of nuclear technologies out in the market today, and we're in favor of all of them. Obviously, our ap1000 is the most advanced nuclear power plant operating in the world with passive safety features. So we're not relying on motors and pumps. We have we're relying on gravity and natural circulation.
▶ 3:11:16We're not relying on off site power. We're relying on batteries. And our operators don't have to take action for 72 hours in the event of an upset at our facility. That's that's the ap1000. Are these other technologies offer similar safety features and provide those. But when we look at, uh, in my testimony, I said design once build many. We've built this. It's licensed. It's working. We know how to do it.
▶ 3:11:42We need to, uh, for the sake of getting to nth of a kind and rebuilding the infrastructure in the united states. Focus on a technology that can deliver a safe, reliable energy to our customers. >> uh, miss korzenik, I'm out of time, but obviously we're in a race with a in ai with china. China is building as many as ten or more of these, uh, power plants. And I would like for you to, uh, submit to, for the record your comments regarding this race and what we need to do to catch up.
▶ 3:12:11And with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back in the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from california, seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you for having this hearing today. And I want to thank the witnesses for being here. Also, I want to be clear, I support nuclear power for as an important clean energy source. But safety must always come first.
▶ 3:12:38And nuclear waste is not something that we can brush under the rug and ignore. We can't build new nuclear power plants without a plan to deal with the waste they produce. The rancho seco nuclear power plant in my district was shut down over 30 years ago, but the spent fuel is still there because congress and the federal government have failed to implement a successful nuclear waste program. This is not a technical problem.
▶ 3:13:04This is a policy failure, and it's our responsibility on this committee to fix it. I know many members of this committee are hopeful that new recycling technologies will solve the waste problem. But even in an ideal scenario, recycling won't fully eliminate nuclear waste. Miss greenwald, does a nuclear innovation alliance support recycling? >> yes.
▶ 3:13:30We support spent nuclear fuel recycling, provided it's done with appropriate safeguards and nonproliferation in place. >> now, under an ideal scenario, how much waste could be recycled. >> so recycling can significantly reduce the total volume that requires permanent disposal. Currently in france, they're reducing the total volume of spent nuclear fuel by up to 80%. However, recycling can never eliminate the need for a permanent repository because you can't recycle 100%.
▶ 3:13:58>> okay, okay, so we are unlikely to actually achieve the ideal scenario there. >> but significant make a significant. >> okay, um, so you still believe in the need for comprehensive federal waste program? >> I'm sorry. >> okay. Um, miss korzenik, do you agree that an effective, comprehensive nuclear waste disposal program is essential to the long term future of nuclear industry? >> yes.
▶ 3:14:25Um, we submitted a letter to the secretary of energy in october of this year that outlined a comprehensive, um, use fuel strategy. >> yeah. So it's fair to say that the current nuclear waste framework was stipulated by the nuclear waste policy act does not meet that need at this moment in time. Miss korzenik, yes or no, please. Do you agree with that statement I just made? >> that's correct.
▶ 3:14:55We need changes, uh, to make a durable, long term waste integrated strategy. >> doctor wagner and miss greenwald, yes or no, please. Do you agree that this committee should update the nuclear waste policy act to modernize our nuclear waste framework? >> yes, yes. >> okay.
▶ 3:15:17I think it's clear from the enduring impasse over yucca mountain that a consent based or collaborative siting process is essential for any federal storage framework going forward. Miss courtney, do you agree with the need for consent based siting? >> yes, we do. >> miss greenwald. How can consent based siting help us move beyond yucca mountain? >> thanks for the question. This is really important.
▶ 3:15:42So as a country, we've spent several decades trying to put a permanent repository somewhere where people didn't want it, and that has not turned out well. So we really think that consent based siting is the way to go, and a number of other countries are moving on that, particularly sweden. Finland is especially the furthest along and canada is canada is embarking on this as well. So we think it's the way to go. >> all right. Thank you.
▶ 3:16:06Um, doctor wagner and miss kawasaki also both included the need for interim storage in your testimony. I have long been a proponent of consolidated interim stories, so I want to quickly recap for members of the committee. Miss korzenik, doctor wagner, and miss greenwald, there seems to be broad agreement that this committee should amend the nuclear waste policy act to modernize our nuclear waste framework, to incorporate consent based siting, and authorize interim storage facilities.
▶ 3:16:33I look forward to continuing this conversation and working with my colleagues to develop an effective nuclear waste framework. Um, let me just go on a little bit. I know I'm running out of time here. Um, I know that, um, I know that many of my colleagues believe fixing our nuclear waste system is not an urgent problem, but it's a costly problem. And the cost goes up every year that we kick the can down the road.
▶ 3:17:02Um, so far, this has cost the government $12 billion. And that goes up by around $1 billion every year. So if my colleagues really want to save taxpayers money, fixing our federal nuclear waste program can save billions of dollars. And I see him running out of time, so I yield back the rest of my time. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back the balance of her time, and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from iowa's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you.
▶ 3:17:32>> chair and ranking member castor, for holding this hearing on the current state of nuclear energy. As a young girl, my father was a nuclear physicist, technician in the air force and was one of the people who shut down the nuclear power plants in, if I recall correctly, fort belvoir, virginia, sundance, wyoming, and then was at wright-patterson air force base. So to be where we are today, when just five years ago as a state senator, meeting with environmental groups, when asking about energy and the need for energy, we're told no nuclear.
▶ 3:18:02We indeed are at a pivotal moment for american nuclear energy. After decades of stagnation, market forces, national security imperatives, bipartisan policy are finally aligned. Um, the question before us no longer is whether america needs nuclear energy, but how quickly we can deploy it. Iowa understands energy leadership. Are any of the above? Strategy has made iowa a top ten state for affordable electricity rates.
▶ 3:18:27Governor reynolds recently signed an executive order establishing the iowa nuclear energy task force. The task force will work to align state policies with federal regulations, engage with manufacturers to cultivate a nuclear supply chain in iowa, and identify opportunities to enhance economic growth through nuclear energy. A key focus will be supporting the restart of duane arnold energy center and ensuring iowa is positioned to attract future nuclear development. Nextera energy is working to bring duane arnold back online by eight.
▶ 3:18:57By late 2028 or 2029, and part of the reversal in nuclear plant closures and the reopening of duane arnold is the advance act, which this committee championed is critical to making these restarts possible by streamlining licensing, reducing regulatory duplication and creating more predictable timelines for project approvals. But iowa's story is america's story.
▶ 3:19:20And while our nuclear industry stagnated, as has been pointed out, china and russia surged ahead, now accounting for 94% of reactors under construction worldwide. That competition isn't just about electricity, it's about american jobs, domestic manufacturing, exporting knowledge and equipment, and secure supply chains. We've watched critical skills, atrophy and lost a generation of nuclear expertise.
▶ 3:19:45Rebuilding our nuclear energy industry means rebuilding the workforce, supply chains and the industrial base that comes with it. Doctor wagner, you mentioned the national laboratories have maintained nuclear expertise even during decades of stagnation. And let me point out that the ames national lab in iowa was actually instrumental in world war two by developing a process for high purified uranium and supplied uranium to chicago. I think it was about 2 million pounds.
▶ 3:20:15So we know the national laboratories play an important role. What role can inl and the broader lab system play in preserving and transferring knowledge to the next generation of commercial product projects and helping with the workforce issues? >> so thank you for that question. And the rich history there in iowa. Um, and actually, thank you for your remarks. I couldn't agree more with with the remarks that you made, particularly about the the global implications.
▶ 3:20:39But, uh, so we actually have maintained capability, but not at the level that we need it to be. Um, and so one of the things that we've been doing and assisted greatly from congressional actions and appropriations, uh, is reestablishing our capability to do these things again, while we while we had core nuclear expertise over these time periods, uh, there was a period of particularly from 1994 to 2005, when there was no focus in the national laboratories on, on new nuclear
▶ 3:21:09Energy. And so, of course, that's changed. And I'm very, very thankful for that. But some of the key projects that I talked about already, the marvel microreactor, some of these other microreactors are reestablishing our capabilities at the laboratory in terms of expertise, but also with the department of energy, the capability and the capacity to do the safety reviews and authorizations and all this and exercise that nepa in the, in the in the modern era, all these different things are being exercised right now that will not only prepare, you know,
▶ 3:21:41And help the commercial side, it will develop that workforce and supply chain that we so desperately need. >> and speaking of workforce, there's a plethora of questions I have, but I just wanted to recognize the life and career of, uh, professor nuno loureiro, director of mit's plasma science and fusion center, who was senselessly murdered in december, which again takes away infusion energy. Uh, part of that development and mentoring of young individuals. Um, if I could, um, uh, Mr.
▶ 3:22:10Williams, you mentioned about financial support. I'm just going to submit this for the record to be answered because I'm running out of time. But two questions. Can you explain why this type of support would not end up paying for mistakes that a company like southern company, or any other company responsible for building a plant might make by having financial support? And how long would congress and the federal government need to financially support this industry? Um, and what does it mean for nuclear development going forward?
▶ 3:22:35I think those are very important to us getting up to the speed of other nations for more data centers and ai online. And with that, I yield back. >> the gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york's 20th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. First, I associate myself with the comments highlighting the importance of a strong, independent nuclear safety regulator.
▶ 3:23:00This is not only critical for the health and safety of our constituents, but indeed for the nuclear industry as well. The public support and social license to operate needed for new nuclear renaissance can end with just a single incident. If the nuclear industry and congressional republicans are serious about bringing this vision to fruition, then we do need to come together to support a fully independent nrc.
▶ 3:23:24It sounds like there's some consensus from the witnesses that standardization of project design reduces costs, and that there needs to be continued federal support to reach nth of a kind. Projects. Most of the countries that have continued to build reactors steadily since the 1970s have done so by using a settled reactor design.
▶ 3:23:47But at the moment in the united states, there are a lot of different technologies being pursued, many of which are receiving federal research and demonstration funding. So I'd like to ask our witnesses to imagine that we achieve president trump's goal of growing from 100gw of us nuclear capacity today to that 400 level of gigawatts by 2050. Right now, there are numerous companies working to deploy new reactor designs.
▶ 3:24:12So to the witnesses in this future, uh, how many companies do we believe will ultimately be successful in commercializing their product? And will there be a single large scale reactor design in a single smr design, or will there, in your opinion, be many competing options? Anyone that would like to respond to that, please. >> I'm happy to start. Thank you.
▶ 3:24:36Uh, congressman, um, I would say just like any technology and imagine that we weren't talking about nuclear when there's so much innovation going on, you're going to see several different companies. That's what we're seeing now in nuclear. I think ultimately you're going to see some of these also say combine and collect. So you're going to see some narrowing in the industry. But I don't, however, think that you're going to get to only one smr design or only one, let's say microreactor design.
▶ 3:25:06And the reason is that different technologies, um, that you've been here talking about here on this panel, is that they offer different attributes, right? So some designs offer very high temperature steam, and that might be something you're interested in. Some designs might not offer as much high temperature steam, but they might offer you more efficient electricity. Um, so it depends really on what you're trying to use for nuclear. You could get the steam, you could get the electricity, you can use some of that to create hydrogen.
▶ 3:25:33And there is going to be a lot of different opportunities in the marketplace. And so I think you're going to see that the designs are looked at not only for how quickly can you build them and how efficiently can they operate, but what product are they producing that you as a company, uh, you know, are looking for?
▶ 3:25:54>> okay, so within that vein, when it comes to the federal government's strategy to achieve this vision, if we're going to deploy a lot of new reactors in the next two decades, should the government bet on more companies by spreading our limited federal assistance broadly, or provide greater assistance to a fewer number of the most promising technologies, anyone? Uh, miss greenberg? >> yeah.
▶ 3:26:18So we actually like the diversity of programs that the department of energy has now, including the addition of the couple of problems that just happened this year. So we have a range of programs. We have an advanced reactor demonstration program that is demonstrating to non light water reactors that are smrs. There's now also a gen three plus program that's demonstrating a couple of designs of light water smrs.
▶ 3:26:44There's this pilot program which is a lot of shots on goal with a very for very small size reactors. And there's also a number there's a bunch of fuels programs. There's the loan program. We have this, in my view, correct diversity of programs where we're trying. We cannot we can't bet on everything, but we can make a number of bets. And then, as maria was saying, there's going to ultimately have to be a downselect. Not everyone is going to make it. And that's actually okay.
▶ 3:27:13That has happened in the past with other types of technologies outside the nuclear sector as well as in the nuclear sector. I think what's one of our key strengths as a country is this sort of entrepreneurial spirit that allows a lot of these different types of companies to try things. Not all of them are going to win, but having that entrepreneurial energy that we're getting right now and having all these different companies trying things is good. But ultimately we can't.
▶ 3:27:41All of those designs won't all work out, so we're going to have to get to standardize. But in our country, as opposed to some other places where it's more state controlled, there's going to be this interaction between the government decisions, what they are interested in providing incentives for, what the regulator approves, as well as the market, because, as maria said, there's a lot of different use cases for these different technologies.
▶ 3:28:07So probably in each use case there might be more than one technology, but there probably won't be so many designs or so many successes. >> okay, I appreciate that. And I see I'm down to the zero moment. So thank you, Mr. chair. And I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from alabama's sixth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 3:28:32And I know a couple of times people have mentioned our friend doug lamalfa. And I just want to say praying for his his family. And he was a great friend. Uh, Mr. williams, you know, I'm very interested in small modular reactors, and I just want to know where the company is on that. As I understand it, you may have been involved with, uh, private entity in the development of smrs.
▶ 3:28:58Uh, is that, uh, is southern company investing in that area? >> so thank you for the question. Uh, congressman, you know, our our focus obviously has been on the completion of units three and four and getting those units into service, uh, for the benefit of our customers. As we look at the landscape of all the technologies that are out there in front of us, obviously, we're interested in all of the technologies that are available.
▶ 3:29:27Uh, you mentioned our, um, partnership that we have had over many years now working with terrapower and the doe on the molten chloride fast reactor, which is a gen4 reactor that we have, uh, spent a great deal of time and effort to try to bring that that, you know, there's integrated effects testing now occurring at the idaho national lab associated with that.
▶ 3:29:47And we continue to focus on that and the other areas that we focus on specifically around smrs is how can we share the lessons that we learned at plant vogel, uh, with with our construction to those not all of those lessons are specific to ap1000 and are absolutely transferable to other technologies. And so how can we help them be successful? >> I've asked this question before in regard to recycling spent fuel.
▶ 3:30:09Um, made the point that, uh, their spent fuel rods buried, encased in concrete, buried in 39 states, they retain, uh, 90% of their energy generation capacity, and you can recover about 96% of it. I think that's somewhat the experience that they've had in france. Mr. wagner, you may have been the one that I asked this 3 or 4 years ago, but how long do you think we could operate if we really invested in recycled, uh, spent fuel? >> so thank you for the question.
▶ 3:30:38And I think actually, you might have asked this question to one of my colleagues in the past. I do recall, um, if I recall correctly, by the way, there is spent fuel rods buried in any states. So let me just note that they're in casks. >> they're in. >> storage and so forth. And so I just want to, if I may, um, so there there are estimates in terms of how long we could run off of our commercial fuel in terms of powering new reactors. Those estimates vary on different assumptions and in terms of the recovery capabilities.
▶ 3:31:05But there are estimates out there that we could run our reactors for 100 years based on that. But it does depend on a number of details. >> right. Um, someone raised the question about cost, and I think it's about 6% more is what they estimate they pay in in france. But the long term benefit, I think more than offsets that.
▶ 3:31:22Um, in 24, congress passed the prohibited russian uranium import act, and with the dual focus of eliminating our reliance on on russian uranium while leveling the playing field for domestic uranium producers to make it more economical, competitive, and revitalizing domestic uranium production. But since that time, russia, uranium has still been flowing in us under a waiver process. There's been a concerning uptick in chinese uranium exports to us.
▶ 3:31:51I'm very concerned about our reliance on adversarial nations for critical minerals, particularly refined rare earth elements. And, uh, but, Mr. williams, as a reactor operator, you're concerned about the ongoing influence of state owned entities in russia and china on the us nuclear fuel market. >> so thanks again for the question.
▶ 3:32:12And I can say that, you know, in what's in the best interest of our customers in terms of the operation of our units, is that we have a a safe and secure, reliable supply of our fuel. And we have we have done that for many, many years. Uh, at southern company, we've taken a very conservative approach to the sourcing of our fuel, uh, sourcing fuel from, uh, I would say more friendly nations, uh, to our, to our country and making sure that we have that reliable supply to that. So, yes, it is a concern for the company, for our company, uh, that we have a reliable supply.
▶ 3:32:42>> of fuel. So it's one of my top priorities, and I think a top priority of this committee to make sure that we have a secure supply chain, not only of uranium, uh, but also of processed and refined critical minerals and rare earth elements, uh, so that we know we're no longer dependent on china or any other adversarial nation for those things. Uh, doctor wagner, you mentioned that, uh, about uranium and your your testimony and and your concerns about our reliance as well.
▶ 3:33:10Uh, china has successfully converted thorium, uh, 232 into uranium 233 in a molten salt reactor in alabama. Uh, our state legislature passed a joint resolution last april that the governor signed, recognizing the value of uranium 233 and offering alabama as a new home for that material. I think a redstone arsenal is among nine installations chosen by the army for its next generation nuclear power program, the janus program.
▶ 3:33:39Are your thoughts on expanding thorium reactors in the united states? By utilizing the remaining u-233 that we have for fuel. >> if I could, the gentleman's time has expired. If you could, uh, put that in writing. Back to the to the gentleman. We greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, thank you. Yield back. >> thank you very much. Gentleman. Yields back the balance of his time. Yields. Uh, the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from washington's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you to our witnesses.
▶ 3:34:08Uh, I come from washington state. Uh, hanford is, uh, a strong memory in our state. Actually, it is an ongoing memory in our state because we're almost 100 years later, and we're still dealing with consequences of, uh, plutonium. And I know that is different from energy production, but it, uh, it it weighs heavily on us. Um, despite that, we are also state that really treasures non-emitting energy sources.
▶ 3:34:36And there's overwhelming support, um, both in washington state for nuclear energy. And I hope you are hearing bipartisan support here for deploying more nuclear energy. And we are so proud that together, we, uh, pass the advance act to move things along more quickly. Um, I want to start just with a question. Science question. Doctor wagner, could you just list some of the things that could go wrong?
▶ 3:35:03Uh, with nuclear energy, power generation, maybe without the nrc catching things, could you just list off a couple? >> so the nrc has a very robust set of regulations and requirements that are reviewed, that any nuclear system is reviewed against. Um, and so I have confidence in that system. The things I worry more about that might go wrong are financial and project execution.
▶ 3:35:34They're really not on on these aspects. As long as we continue to have strong regulations and regulatory regulatory body that is independent from the industry, I really don't want to speculate on on that. >> so let's touch on that just for a moment. Because you talked about the independence of, uh, of the regulatory agency. Um, I think about, of course, disposal. How do we manage the waste? Where do we put the waste? Uh, I think about, uh, we've had intrusion into the columbia river and cancers in the area.
▶ 3:36:03Uh, we live in an earthquake zone. Uh, what would that do? Where do you put a plant? Uh, we saw tsunami in japan. We are right at the coast. So, um, I think about these kinds of things as well. And we've talked a lot today about the need for distance between department of energy, department of defense and the nuclear, uh, regulatory regulation, the nrc.
▶ 3:36:29And we've seen dismantling by this administration with, you know, basically approval by my colleagues, uh, in this committee for, uh, a firing of many of the experts there, many of the other experts are nearing retirement age. So I guess my next question, um, is I'll go to miss korzenik. Um, but I could also take miss greenwald for this.
▶ 3:36:59Uh, if you lose that expertise, you've had these firings. We're looking at quadrupling our capacity for nuclear energy. Um, in the next several years. How do you do that? And still and not have the sufficiency of oversight and regulation and still earn public support? Without public support? We're going to get hung up in these projects? >> yeah, I'm happy to start.
▶ 3:37:27Um, we've had a lot of conversation around, uh, independence and, um, I guess I would, I would just offer that I think the independence and the need for independence is going to be decided by the courts. And I think we need to really look at the mandate of the nuclear regulatory commission. What are they there to do? And I think our best focus is, do they have the talent and do they have the folks there that can make those decisions and move these items forward? And I believe that they do.
▶ 3:37:56Um, they've had about a 10% reduction in force. Um, you know, okay. >> I'm going to cut you off just so I can go to miss greenwald. And I just want to comment, as you talk about the courts, we've seen almost no pushback from the supreme court to this president's authority to take away, uh, bipartisan oversight. And I don't have faith in that. Miss greenwald, would you like to comment about the importance of independence and the need to restore?
▶ 3:38:25And how do we hire up more experts when so many are going to leave the retirement? >> yeah. Thank you. So I think, again, the root of all of these characteristics like transparency, independence, it's all about making sure that we have public trust.
▶ 3:38:42And so the important thing is that we make sure that we maintain that public trust and independence and transparency is part of that expertise, having enough staff, it's a whole panoply of things that we have to make sure that we look out for. I do think that, um, there are ways forward. I do you know, it's been kind of a long year.
▶ 3:39:02I do get the sense that there are more and more folks realizing the importance of nrc, the importance of nrc being adequately staffed, the importance of maintaining nrc's credibility. Um, I think that this is very important. And I, I think there's still work to be done, but I really do think that we can fix this and make it better. >> and I think as a congress, we must if we want that public support. Thank you. And I yield back. >> thank you very much.
▶ 3:39:31The gentlelady's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas 11th district for five minutes for question. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, no surprise that I'm going to bring up a project in texas, in abilene, texas that you're probably aware of with natural resources leading an effort to build a reactor on the campus of abilene christian university, where I've been and I've visited, um, but they've received formal commitments from the department of energy, um, for both hailu and the specialized salt required for the reactor's operation.
▶ 3:39:59Uh, nature has been selected to be a part of the doe reactor uh pilot program. And the facility there is completely built. As I mentioned, I just visited it a couple of months ago. It's very impressive. The state of texas is also partnering and supplying $120 million. But these milestones confirm that the fuel supply, the regulatory approval and the project readiness are not just speculative. They're actually they're actually happening and they're well ahead and, uh, doing very, very well.
▶ 3:40:25I think the remaining obstacle is the processing and the transportation of the materials, um, which is inherently a governmental function. And we appreciate the idaho national laboratories, uh, helping this. So, um, the reactor will be built this year. Doctor wagner, how can I best support this project and the goals of the administration to get the the required products, including halo, uh, to abilene in a timely manner to complete the, uh, the project. >> so thank you for the question.
▶ 3:40:55And the partnership there. Um, I would say that, you know, the first thing that, uh, that we have to address and that is being addressed is the actual fundamental material that is made into a fuel form, uh, the high value that I think you referred to, that's a fundamental federal government decision on who gets what and how much and so forth. Um, we're idaho national laboratory plays. The role is we have some of that material on behalf of the department of energy. Uh, and then we can help with developers move that material from its raw form into the fuel form that the reactor needs.
▶ 3:41:25And so that's the area that, uh, that we can definitely help with. >> so and I think the frustration has been that they've got this is a privately funded, you know, enterprise that doe came to this group and said, will you do this? They said, sure. And then they get all the way there and it's like they're at the finish line. They want to they want to get this done. But the the government needs to to finish their, their piece of this. So, uh, we recognize that the availability, the availability of the facilities and the equipment for processing materials is limited.
▶ 3:41:52Um, but if there is a prioritization, uh, and the use of the infrastructure is prioritized for this project, uh, it sounds like that that's going to speed it up. And what's the best way for congressional offices to both stay informed and to make sure that we continue? Because, I mean, they're well ahead of any other program, uh, of this type. >> yeah. In terms of engagement on access to the materials and prioritization of resources and facilities at the laboratory, that engagement is best directed towards the department of energy.
▶ 3:42:21Um, as as a laboratory. I'm a department of energy laboratory, but I'm not a federal employee, and I don't make those federal government decisions. Uh, we take our direction from the department of energy. >> I think what we recognize in this hearing is very significant, because there's a race and and that race is not just for ai, although that is extremely important. But the race is for, uh, an assortment of energy needs that that, uh, demand is going to continue to increase at an exponential rate. And that kind of leads me to a question for Mr.
▶ 3:42:50Williams, which, uh, utilities are seeing unprecedented, uh, load growth for data centers and how much regulatory certainty is needed before you can commit nuclear resources to continue to serve that load at scale. >> so thank you for that question, congressman. So we are seeing tremendous load growth, especially in the southeast and southern company is is planning to meet that commitment. You know, we believe that, um preserving the option for new nuclear generation is important for our customers as we look for that.
▶ 3:43:21But we've got to we've got to mitigate the risks that are associated with that. We laid those out in our testimony today, and that's our focus. And how do we mitigate those risks? Working with, uh, through public private partnerships, working with the customers, those data center customers and making sure that we can do that. Because what we want to do is when we bring that data center on, we want to put downward pressure on rates for the rest of our customers. That's the model that we've established in georgia. That's what we want to continue to do. And so that's what we're focused on. >> well thank you.
▶ 3:43:50We have to compete at the speed of commerce. And right now we're competing at the speed of government, which is abysmal. Um, and uh, doctor wagner, when you think about, uh, what's the biggest economic driver of nuclear waste recycling. >> the biggest. >> economic driver. Driver? Yeah. >> um, I would say that that mining, uh, uranium out of the ground is cheaper. Um, also, uh, that's the economic driver. Uh, the other aspect, I think, is that this committee could consider is the nuclear waste policy act and whether or not there are incentives, um, with respect to recycling.
▶ 3:44:20>> well, that's kind of my that was my follow up is what what, you know, what will provide a model of sustainability so we can continue to use and recycle and use the materials that we know are valuable. >> well, so there's a number of aspects to that question. But I would say the nuclear waste policy act did not envision a future of recycling. Uh, it it laid out standard contracts with utilities where the department of energy would take the material. Uh, and so that is the model under the nuclear waste policy act.
▶ 3:44:48If we would like to change that model, then I think we need to go back and revisit that. >> hard to have that conversation in 20s. But, uh. Thank you. Yield back. >> the gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from texas seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> well, thank you, chairman latta, and thank you to, uh, ranking member castor and to our witnesses for your testimony today. Um, it's been very helpful.
▶ 3:45:14And I think it is clear from this discussion, um, that for advanced nuclear to succeed, developers need clear rules, um, rules of the road and the freedom to, um, get away from a politicized regulatory process. And that's something I know has been of concern to a lot of us on this committee this year. Um, I'm really glad that our committee came together in the last congress to pass the bipartisan advance act, which many of you have mentioned in your testimony today.
▶ 3:45:44Um, and that will really, I think, spur the nuclear renaissance that we are witnessing across the country. And certainly in my home state of texas. Um, but in the wake of this, I think really solid bipartisan success, what we have seen is this year, president trump has orchestrated another partizan attack on a key government agency, and that's the nuclear regulatory commission.
▶ 3:46:07Um, over the course of the last year, president trump illegally fired a commissioner, installed dosage cronies to bypass career civil servants, and has taken several actions to erode the nrc's independence. And ultimately, um, and unfortunately, this this just isn't the first time that president trump has attempted to take away agency independence. Um, and it's likely not going to be the last.
▶ 3:46:34And so every member in this room, uh, every member of the congress and every witness in the room knows that keeping regulators like nrc and ferc independent is really crucial to the stability and the safety of the power sector. And so I just urge my colleagues on this committee not to turn a blind eye to these attacks, um, on the ability to keep our constituents safe, to provide the regulatory environment for nuclear development, really to flourish.
▶ 3:47:04And in texas, we are seeing that. We just heard a little bit from, um, my friend from the other side of the state, Mr. pfluger, uh, talking about a tremendous amount of interest in developing innovative advanced reactors, um, advances in next generation nuclear technologies, including smrs, in recent years, offer huge potential advancements. And I do think I'd like to say in this committee a lot, I really think texas is leading the way in all sectors.
▶ 3:47:29Um, and it's also true in nuclear that we're doing so many, um, things in my part of the state. We're excited about x energy's partner partnership with dow, um, which will be the first grid scale advanced reactor at a site along the texas gulf coast. Um, and that project, once it's deployed, could really open a new frontier for advanced nuclear applications in the industrial sector. Um, and so we're excited about this, and we want to see, um, a successful and diverse supply of energy. Um, and so that, of course, leads to some questions.
▶ 3:48:01And, miss greenwald, I want to follow up on some questions. I know you've already touched on some of this, um, in your, uh, in your answers earlier, but, um, I, I do think it's worth discussing and that president trump's, uh, nuclear executive orders have initiated a lot of complicated rulemakings. And, uh, at the, at the nuclear regulatory commission, the career civil servants that work on the commission are some of the brightest minds in the field.
▶ 3:48:28Um, but their jobs are made harder by uncoordinated directives. Um, and the president's effort to inject politics into what should be a really nonpartisan commission. And I've heard concerns, um, from nuclear energy professionals that the volume and complexity of the rulemakings created by this administration and the executive orders coming out of the trump administration could lead to an uncertain regulatory environment that could really stymie progress on nuclear development.
▶ 3:48:56So can you speak to the importance, I think, of the nrc's independence for a stable and predictable regulatory environment? >> yes, I think I've spoken already, but happy to say it again, I think it's this it's not just independence, it's also transparency. And it's also having the right expertise. So it's it's several things and they all have to work together and we need all of them. We do think and since I've talked about this less I'll say a little more.
▶ 3:49:25We have some recommendations about how to help with employee retention and to recruiting, because that is a key problem. And we have a report on that which we're happy to share. We had a, um, chatham house rules workshop earlier this.
▶ 3:49:42I guess it was last year with former commissioners, former executive directors for operation, former nrc employees at all levels of the agency, and came up with a number of recommendations about how to make things go better at nrc. We do think that making sure that the staff is excellent and empowered and accountable is really important, and we really do want to focus on that. And as I said, we do think we are concerned about the transparency.
▶ 3:50:12And, um, and independence issues, but we actually think they can be addressed and we're actually raising them because we think this committee can help address them. >> that's great. Well, I have gone over my time. I have a few more questions for you. So I'm going to submit them in writing. Um, on some really down in the weeds. But I think it is hugely important. I'm grateful for your work. I'm grateful for all of your testimony, and I'm grateful for the few extra seconds you gave me. Chairman. And I'll yield back. >> thank you very much.
▶ 3:50:41The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york's 23rd district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you very much. Chairman latta. Uh, as we've heard from several members of this subcommittee today, nuclear energy offers clear benefits. It provides reliable zero emission power. It supports high quality jobs and strengthens our grid resilience. It is an incredibly important tool for us to have in the energy toolbox. And it obviously is the future.
▶ 3:51:06Uh, but it works best as part of a balanced, all of the above energy strategy that expands options and strengthens the grid, rather than forcing artificial trade offs that raise costs, undermine reliability, or distort the free market. Uh, across the country, we're seeing renewed interest in nuclear energy. And that's a good thing, including in my home state of new york.
▶ 3:51:28Uh, the state has recently directed the new york power authority to pursue development of a zero emission, advanced nuclear facility in upstate new york. I see that less is a final decision than more of a reflection of a broader shift towards reconsidering nuclear energy to expand energy choice.
▶ 3:51:47However, announcing a project is only the initial step, uh, whether a nuclear facility can be delivered depends far less on press releases than on the full set of processes that govern execution, including licensing pathways, environmental reviews, siting approvals, agency coordination, uh, and the predictability of timelines from start to finish. Uh, in new york, that is where the real challenges will emerge. Uh, Mr.
▶ 3:52:15Williams, when states announced support for nuclear energy. What kinds of state policies help ensure projects can actually be delivered efficiently and cost effectively, and what kinds of policies tend to get in the way? >> so thank you for your question. From a from a policy perspective, I'll talk from the experience that we had at vogel. Uh, we experienced a number of of policies that were very helpful in our state.
▶ 3:52:41Um, one policy that was very helpful was construction work in progress that allowed us to, um, to save our customers money by ultimately by ultimately having them, they were paying the interest of the the loan and the cost during the construction of the project. That's a very kind of important, um, aspect of state policy. And it was, uh, saved our customers hundreds of millions of dollars in the long term.
▶ 3:53:08We're also seeing states that are existing with, with funds or grant funds for development that that are helping kind of move things along quicker. Uh, while utilities get more certainty around, uh, the risk mitigations that will be necessary ultimately before utilities move forward. Those are the types of policies that we think would be helpful. >> very good.
▶ 3:53:27In many states like new york, the permitting and the environmental review systems in place today were designed during a very, very different era, uh, one where the focus was often on slowing and constraining major infrastructure projects rather than delivering them efficiently. Even when there is clear predictability of timelines from start to finish. Um, we, you know, we have this new interest in nuclear, and those processes can involve overlapping agency reviews in open ended timelines and litigation risk.
▶ 3:53:57Uh, miss korzenik, how important is it for state environmental review siting and permitting process to be aligned if advanced nuclear projects are going to move forward? And does uncertainty in those processes ever become a deciding factor? >> well, thanks for the question. Um, yeah, I think it's very important. And it's the front end of the process, right. In terms of ensuring that your process and your project gets off on a good, clean start.
▶ 3:54:23Um, and so getting that permitting and getting those environmental reviews done and done expeditiously, I think is, is very important. You know, nuclear is a major project. So if you can imagine sort of any major thing that you're trying to build, if you have inefficiencies and you have things that take much too long, they're dragging down other investments that you've made. It's a highly capital intensive process. So you're paying interest on some of those things. Uh, so the longer it takes, you know, the more expensive it is.
▶ 3:54:53>> thank you very much. Now, Mr. williams, from an investment standpoint, how do long and uncertain state permitting timelines affect decisions to move forward with advanced nuclear projects, even when the technology in the site, uh, are sound? >> well, so thanks again for the question. And I'll reiterate something that, uh, miss korzenik just said, once you begin construction and you have workers on the ground, you know, the capital cost that you're expending is significant.
▶ 3:55:21So anything that can be done to make sure that permitting is efficient, that nothing can hold up, that construction is is absolutely critical for you to move forward and to be able to deliver the project as affordably as on schedule as possible. >> very good. Thank you. Is new york expresses renewed interest in nuclear energy. Understanding how state level processes affect execution will be critical. I really thank you very much and I yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you very much.
▶ 3:55:49The gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas is 33rd district for five minutes for questions. >> Mr. chairman, thank you very much. I think that we all know that nuclear's biggest strength is its steady and dispatchable power, and that's very important in texas as we continue to experience record growth, uh, and extreme weather. Uh, and also, uh, that what comes along with that obviously is, uh, demanding electricity demands.
▶ 3:56:17And so, um, I'm very happy that congress, um, is, is that we're working to pass the advance act and provide 2.7 billion, uh, in investment and domestic and uranium enrichment. I think that's hugely important. Uh, I was very proud to vote in favor of both of those efforts. And I want to continue to work to unleash american nuclear energy with the inclusion of the international nuclear energy act and this year's ndaa.
▶ 3:56:47Uh, that bill is very critical for reclaiming american leadership in the global market and ensuring that us safety standards set the global bar. Uh, but for all the talk around energy dominance, uh, lasting dominance is only possible with public and international confidence. And I want to be clear about that. Dominance is not just about what we build here.
▶ 3:57:08Uh, it's about setting the global safety and security standards that our adversaries, like china and russia, are also currently ignoring, uh, the trump administration's attacks on the nrc's independence threaten the very gold standard of safety that makes our technology the most desirable, uh, in the world. And so safety isn't a bottleneck to be bypassed. Uh, it is the product of what we are selling around the world. And I want to be clear about that.
▶ 3:57:36We do not want to erode our independence and lose our competitive edge. And so I wanted to ask judy greenwald, uh, I've cosponsored representative, uh, griffith's efficient nuclear licensing hearing bill, uh, this removes the requirement for the nrc to hold a public hearing at the end of the licensing process if the license is not contested by an affected party. And that makes sense, and it is supported by a wide range of stakeholders.
▶ 3:58:02But if we allow the administration to start cutting corners and silencing safety commissioners, then what does that do for public trust? I think that that that that hurts nuclear. Can we achieve energy dominance if the public or our international partners no longer believe the regulator is independent? >> thank you for the question and thanks for your leadership on this legislation. We are very supportive of eliminating mandatory hearings.
▶ 3:58:31That's an example where mandatory hearings where there's no issue because if there's no issue, it doesn't make sense to have a mandatory hearing. We think there are a set of issues around this. The advance act addressed many of them. There are more to be addressed. So we think you can improve efficiency at the same time as you can actually maintain safety and transparency and public trust and independence. So we think you have to do both.
▶ 3:59:02I think, um, it's very important that we do both, and we think that it's possible. And we certainly see the, um, elimination of the mandatory hearing requirement when there's no issue. It just, you know, we don't want the nrc to be spending time on issues that aren't that aren't safety significant.
▶ 3:59:22And so I think this is sort of our approach to energy, to nrc efficiency is to eliminate processes that aren't helpful, but to also but to maintain the ones that are. So I think that we can do both and, um, we're, you know, ready and willing and able to work with people to make sure that that we get that outcome. >> well, thank you very much. Uh, miss korzenik, you've called for a predictable licensing.
▶ 3:59:47Uh, if the nrc is treated like a political arm of the white house, uh, where rules can change every election, how does that affect the long term investment decisions of your member companies to political interference? Make, uh, nuclear projects, uh, less or more attractive to wall street? >> I think predictability is key not only for investors, but for people that operate and build these assets. I think that's very important.
▶ 4:00:11Um, you know, I will stress that there will be a lot of regulations that are coming out, uh, especially starting this year. Um, and there are comment periods available. So we do expect that there will be public engagement as these regulations, uh, roll out before they are finalized. I think that's also a very important part of the process, which is one of the ways that will maintain that public confidence. >> yeah. Thank you very much, Mr. chairman, I yield back.
▶ 4:00:42>> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of this time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from colorado's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, to our ranking member as well. And of course, to our witnesses for taking the time to come today. We need more energy. I think everybody agrees on that. My local electric utility, for instance, says that they're going to need three times as much energy in the next ten years as they have today, and that's after already doubling in the last ten years.
▶ 4:01:10Unfortunately, my democrat colleagues are pushing the most expensive form of energy on americans, and that's not conjecture. That is from the democrat controlled colorado energy office, which commissioned a study that found last year that relying solely on variable power and battery storage is the most expensive option out there. It would cost coloradans alone $17 billion extra, or an additional $2,800 per person.
▶ 4:01:37And so, to lower costs for americans and coloradans, we need an all of the above balanced strategy that includes reliable, affordable, safe baseload power from nuclear generation. This is something that's important to me in my district, because we had the last operational nuclear generating facility in colorado at the fort saint vrain facility. Unfortunately, like many other nuclear plants, this one was decommissioned.
▶ 4:02:02And to this day, there remain far too many roadblocks and lack of incentives to invest in clean, affordable, safe and reliable nuclear generation. With many colorado democrats still opposing nuclear energy. Um, and so my first question will be to miss korzenik last fall, I introduced a bipartisan permitting reform framework alongside my my democrat colleague, rep peters, uh, which was endorsed by the problem solvers caucus.
▶ 4:02:25One key provision which was mentioned in your testimony was ending mandatory hearings for nuclear facility construction. Can you explain how the current system adds unnecessary delays to bringing generation online, and how modernizing the process can benefit the industry? >> certainly. Thank you.
▶ 4:02:44Uh, the mandatory hearings, and I know it just came up in the the last question, um, the mandatory hearings add like in the zip code of six months, uh, potentially, um, you know, at the end of the process and, um, even the nrc agrees that the mandatory hearings are something that can be removed. It gives you the impression that it's public engagement. Um, but there is not actually public engagement in the mandatory hearing process at the end.
▶ 4:03:11And so it just becomes a bit of unnecessary, uh, administrative, uh, work that is done, uh, in that process. And that can be done elsewhere. Uh, not in series. >> does removing those impact in any way the safety of the nuclear facility? >> absolutely not. >> thank you. Going to, uh, to Mr. wagner from the idaho national lab. Um, I know we've been talking mostly about fission today, but I wanted to discuss fusion as well.
▶ 4:03:37Um, as we look to the next decade and to president trump and secretary's rights roadmap to a commercial fusion plant within a decade. Uh, I actually just toured summer energy, uh, south of my district with secretary. Right. Um, they are a national leader in inertial fusion commercialization. Uh, and we had a chance to talk about that technology.
▶ 4:03:56Um, can you comment on, uh, inl's work on tritium, the tritium fuel cycle technologies, things like breeding and recovery, um, as well as using thick liquids to breed tritium, extract the fusion energy and protect the structural walls from the fusion radiation. >> yeah. So thank you very much for that question. Uh, a lot of times people think about idaho national laboratory and they think about fusion energy, which is our primary focus. But as you, uh, acknowledged, we do a lot of work in fusion.
▶ 4:04:24Um, and so as an applied national laboratory, applied energy, national laboratory, our role in fusion is focused on the practical challenges of deployment, particularly the tritium fuel cycle that you referred to those technologies and the material performance around those. So at the laboratory, we have unique capabilities relevant to this. Uh, they they're born out of our fission part of our laboratory.
▶ 4:04:47Things like the advanced test reactor for materials and fuels, performance testing, uh, things like the star facility for handling tritium, where we support research in the tritium breeding, uh, in recovery, tritium material interface and interactions under radiation and thermal considerations, all things that are very important for treating breeding and management in fusion facilities. Um, and so we we maintain those facilities primarily for our fission r&d program, but they have direct relevance to the fusion. So there's a nice leveraging that happens there.
▶ 4:05:17I'd also note born out of our fission related. >> I'll give you like 15 more seconds to get one more that I want to ask. Pardon me, I said, I got one more question. So if you can like get like ten more seconds. >> I just say also in addition to that are we are leveraging our multiphysics, state of the art modeling and simulation capabilities for this tritium research and design and analysis as well. And then our public private partnership experience on the fission side is being leveraged in the fusion side, as we work with private companies on their efforts to commercialize. >> awesome.
▶ 4:05:46Uh, my final 25 seconds, Mr. william, miss korzenik, uh, we got a lot of uranium in colorado. Can you talk about what would happen if we have the continued imports of chinese nuclear fuel, uh, to the us supply system. >> and about 12 seconds. >> I'll jump in real quick. Um, we absolutely want to, um, mine uranium here in the united states. And we have the capability, um, to do that. We also have to be thoughtful that uranium is a global business.
▶ 4:06:15Um, and it's important that we stay involved in the global sector. And, um, and so I think it's just important that we look at having a diversified fuel supply. >> mine more of it. Got it. Thanks. Yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from massachusetts fourth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chair.
▶ 4:06:36Uh, to start with responding to my colleague from colorado with just the continued misinformed attack on variable energy, in particular offshore wind for the 15,000th time, nobody is talking about exclusively relying on variable energy and battery storage. In fact, I think massachusetts should lift its moratorium on nuclear production and build more nuclear power plants for higher baseload power.
▶ 4:07:01What we are asking for is for the ability for investors and states to make their own decisions about the appropriate portfolio of energy sources. In massachusetts, we have a tremendous amount of offshore wind, and it made a lot of sense. We could have powered 200,000 homes with our offshore wind, which actually it blows so hard off the coast of massachusetts that it matches the baseload reliability of other sources of energy, like natural gas. And we could have traded with hydro-québec for off peak hours.
▶ 4:07:25It made all the sense in the world, but the administration's arbitrary and capricious practices have made it harder to invest in that energy source and other energy sources, where investors have to put capital at risk for the long term. So I just I don't want the lectures anymore from the gop on all of the above energy strategy when they are silent about this administration canceling long term investments in the types of energy generation that we need, because it's going to make it harder for us to do nuclear, which we all agree about. So now on to nuclear.
▶ 4:07:51I want to focus particularly on lara doctor wagner, you, uh, last year, you and your colleagues at idaho national labs published a report which I'd like to enter into the record, uh, proposing that we should maintain an annual occupational whole body dose limit of 5000mg per year and eliminate all, quote, as low as reasonably achievable requirements and subsequent limits below this threshold. I think this is one of the critical issues for this whole industry. I think we got to get this right. Advance 1.0 left this one on the table.
▶ 4:08:20I think we got to get it right in advance. 2.0 uh, you noted that this change could potentially reduce radiation protection costs by millions and correct misconceptions about the risks associated with nuclear tech. Doctor wagner, give us like the the plain english reason for this please. In the next minute. >> yeah. So I'll try to be quick on this. There's a lot that we could talk about.
▶ 4:08:41But the reality is, is that we now have decades of experience and data related to the health effects of radiation, and we now know a lot more than we knew 4 or 5 decades ago. And so the whole theory behind this as low as reasonably achievable, um, posture, it was a prudent posture when you don't have as much information and data as we have today, we now do.
▶ 4:09:03And so driving when the when the industry is driving and the regulatory bodies are driving dose rates to zero, far below what we experience from natural background radiation, there is no health benefits to be had from that. And so that's fundamentally what's at issue. >> and just really like make that really visceral for us. So the 5000 millirems that you're arguing for like what what kind of exposure is that for a typical person like an airline flight is that, you know, comes from fruit?
▶ 4:09:32I know fruit has radioactive exposure. >> yes. So let me first say 5000 milligram is for occupational workers, which are tracked very closely in terms of what their exposures are. We cannot find any statistically significant negative health effects in the data from low dose rate radiation exposure of twice that. And so 5000 is the current limit, by the way. And so what we're saying is since we don't see any health effects there, why are we driving to dose rates well below there.
▶ 4:10:03Right. So that's where the alarm concept comes in. >> and your argument is that when you drive to to alara below that 5000, the marginal cost versus marginal, there's no marginal benefit, you're saying because there's no health benefit whatsoever. Right. And the marginal cost is exorbitant. Is that fair to say. >> it increases significantly as you drive down towards zero? Absolutely. >> for no public health gain. Uh, miss korzenik, if we got this right in an advanced 2.0, what would that do? Um, for the nuclear innovation.
▶ 4:10:33>> I think the real key is where are you applying, alara? So if you've already built a plant and you're talking about using alara for ensuring that you're operating and ensuring. >> new construction. >> those things. Yeah, I would say there's, you know, minimal benefit. But for new construction, if you apply alara in the design phase, it goes like this. I could build that wall two feet thick, but I'd have more shielding. If it was three feet. Well, I'd have more shielding. If it was four feet, we'd have more shielding if it was five feet.
▶ 4:11:02So you can see quickly how you can overdesign things. As he said, you're chasing a number that's sort of not real. Um, and the more concrete and steel that you put in a plant, the higher the cost. So it's really a very basic alara can work in certain phases, like an operational phase. Alara in the design phase is challenging, and we think it should be removed. >> if we build airplanes with alara for radiation exposure, nothing would ever fly. Is that fair to say? >> that's fair. >> I yield back.
▶ 4:11:32>> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. South carolina has long been at the epicenter of america's nuclear enterprise. Uh, it's not just part of our energy mix. Uh, it's the backbone of our grid, our workforce. Uh, we are heavily reliant on nuclear. Uh, we're the home of four nuclear plants, seven operating reactors, and a very deeply experienced nuclear workforce.
▶ 4:12:02Last month, I had the opportunity to speak, um, to the south carolina nuclear summit at the university of south carolina, which was hosted in partnership with palmetto nuclear coalition. What was striking about the discussion, um, that I thought was that there was a unified message that south carolina was not just debating on whether nuclear was going to be part of our future. Uh, we were actively building the next chapter in nuclear deployment. The leadership is now being matched. That leadership is now being matched with actual action.
▶ 4:12:31In recent weeks, santee cooper, which is a state owned utility, approved a memorandum of understanding with brookfield asset management to advance a disciplined, private capital led feasibility process to complete two partially done ap 1000 units at the v.c. Summer site. Independent analysis shows that that would power 1.5 million homes. It's huge. Uh, at the same time, electricity demand is surging, uh, growth, manufacturing, ai data centers, all part of it.
▶ 4:13:02Um, and so nuclear energy is no longer just optional. It's essential to our grid. Uh, congress obviously acted recently through the advance act. States like south carolina are ready to move. The trump administration is ready to move. You're ready to move. Uh, I think we all agree we need more of it in this country. Um, miss korzenik, congress passed the advance act, uh, to ensure that nuclear licensing is efficient, and it's much more streamlined.
▶ 4:13:31Uh, from an industry perspective, where is the nrc making real progress in implementing the advance act? And where are you still seeing friction that could slow large scale projects like v.c. Summer in south carolina? >> yeah. Thank you. And thank you again for the work on the advance act to to the subcommittee. I think it's been incredibly helpful. I think we've seen real, tangible progress. I mean, just listen to some recent announcements on, say, subsequent license renewal or, uh, some of these construction permits, etc.
▶ 4:14:00In fact, both x-energy and terrapower are expecting, uh, construction permits this year. And, uh, that would be literally, you know, in record time as compared to, um, what we would have had years ago. And so I think those are a direct relation to the attention, uh, on the advance act, uh, and complying with that. Um, you know, I think the challenge, as we've mentioned before, is we haven't built, uh, a lot in the united states. And so. >> it's been a while.
▶ 4:14:31>> even if you're finishing, uh, the partially built units there, there at v.c. Summer, um, I think it is, you know, very important that from a nuclear oversight perspective, that roles and responsibilities are very clear from a construction perspective, they just haven't played that role as much. I think, uh, what the work is that they did on vogel, uh, was great, but I would say it was kind of their first real experience, uh, in decades. Uh, on managing, uh, you know, construction.
▶ 4:14:59So I think that's something, um, that still needs to, to have some attention paid to it. >> thank you for that. Um, Mr. williams, uh, utilities, uh, across the country are currently responsible for storing nuclear fuel on site, often for decades, longer than maybe originally intended. Uh, from a utility and operator perspective, how do you view advanced recycling? Uh, in this in this role and fuel management technology as part of a long term solution? Uh, on clearing existing fuel inventories. >> sure.
▶ 4:15:28So thank you for that question, congressman. Uh, first, I just want to say, you know, the safe storage of our fuel is is a critical mission that we have, and we've been safely storing our fuel at our sites for more than 50 years. Um, related to recycling. We are we are obviously very interested in all the solutions that are being considered around, uh, spent nuclear fuel. Uh, we do want to make sure that there is a focus on affordability.
▶ 4:15:54I think it was mission earlier in the hearing that, uh, the recycled uranium has an increased cost relative to, um, natural uranium products. And so we would want to make sure that for the benefit of our customers, we could provide that fuel to them in an affordable way. >> so southern company then would support efforts to recycle or reprocess. Uh, and maybe maybe you already do. I don't know, but, uh, you would support that.
▶ 4:16:20>> southern company would support recycling spent nuclear fuel if that made sense for our customer. From an affordability perspective. >> what role do you think the federal government should play in that, if any? >> I think the the opportunity for the federal government in this space is really related to making sure that the technology is advanced in a way that perhaps it could be done in an affordable way. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I think you shaved off a couple minutes because that went way too quick. But I see that my time has expired. Trust me, I will yield. >> we didn't.
▶ 4:16:49We didn't shave off any of your time. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas is 12th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, very much. Thank you to all the panelists for being here today. Um, this question goes to doctor wagner and miss korzenik. In a november 2024 report. The state commission. The state of texas.
▶ 4:17:14Uh, texas advanced nuclear reactor working group noted that the nuclear reactor, the nuclear regulatory commission, may face an overwhelming surge of advanced nuclear reactor siting applications by the end of the decade. The texas working group recommends congress consider delegating early site permitting authority for advanced nuclear reactors to states like texas, allowing texas to control its own siting processes and timelines from each year. Perspectives.
▶ 4:17:40Do you think the potential delegation of early site permitting authority for advanced nuclear reactors could benefit the nuclear industry and reduce timelines for projects serving our data centers and manufacturing growth? Well, let miss korzenik answer first. >> yeah, I'm happy to, uh, to frame it out first.
▶ 4:17:58I mean, we're happy to to continue engage on this conversation, but honestly, um, having it done in one way, um, I think is actually more beneficial to the industry where we can put pressure on the agency to get more efficient at doing it, but we're all doing it the same way. The one challenge we have if we delegate this to the states is we can have 50 ways of getting this done, and it's harder to make the process efficient if there's 50 ways to do it.
▶ 4:18:25So on one hand, I know states like it for the control. On the other hand, I think we have to look at this in terms of this is how we're going to learn to get better. In the same way that you want a common design, we should have a common design on the environmental and the early site permitting. >> all right. Thank you, doctor wagner. >> I would support what rick said. >> even though texas does it better than anybody and does it best so. >> well, everybody could do it texas's way. >> that'd be.
▶ 4:18:55There's a good answer. Um, miss. The university of texas has partnered with nci and many other industry, education and governmental organizations to publish a report on the nuclear workforce developments needed in texas. This is an example of national and state level coordination on a critical need for resurging nuclear industry. Can industry solve this shortage without expanding university nuclear programs? >> no, I don't believe so.
▶ 4:19:19I think we do need to expand these programs because there's going to be so much more nuclear in our future. We need more talent. >> and if congress were to increase funding for university nuclear programs, would that support the companies nti represents by training more americans to work for the industry? >> absolutely. >> thank you, doctor wagner. The state of texas funded an $18 million research program at the university of texas to develop digital twins for advanced reactors.
▶ 4:19:44That program has already improved reactor operations at the nuclear reactors on university of texas campus. Researchers at ut have collaborated with idaho national lab staff to benefit from computational work led by the national labs, and share results from the digital twin programs at ut austin to support the doe's artificial intelligence for nuclear programs. Does I inl's mission depend on a strong university nuclear program pipeline? >> yes it does.
▶ 4:20:15>> and if congress were to increase funding for university nuclear programs, would that support the critical energy and national security mandate the national labs are tasked with? >> yes it would. >> and how will inl help transfer technology developed at universities to industries such as these digital twins for nuclear reactors?
▶ 4:20:32>> in a number of ways, through our partners, through our direct partnerships with those private companies, which I've talked to extensively about in the written testimony, but also through the development of the people that work with us from the universities that may actually not come to the laboratory, but actually go to those commercial companies. >> all right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield the balance of my time. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from north dakota, the at large representative, for five minutes for questions.
▶ 4:21:02>> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you all for sharing your time and your expertise with us today. Really important hearing. And I was pleased to be able to be part of it. A couple of questions for you, starting with you, Mr. korzenik. So in my state of north dakota, we don't have nuclear, we have coal, we've got natural gas, we've have a lot of wind. We'd love to get into nuclear. We're very open to it.
▶ 4:21:25But I'm curious, are, um, in your experience, are our investors more hesitant to commit capital in states like that that do not have nuclear investments? >> I don't think so. I think the investment community broadly, um, is becoming incredibly interested in nuclear.
▶ 4:21:44Um, and I don't think it's a mark against a state if they don't have it yet, you know, new to nuclear state, I think just in general, the investment community is, uh, is becoming much more bullish on nuclear at this time. And, um, even also look at some of the ai companies, um, mainstream companies, google and microsoft and whatnot, also expressing strong interest in nuclear.
▶ 4:22:07I think that encourages this investment because they're interested in partnering with companies that want to build nuclear. Okay. Thank you. >> um, also for you, Mr. korzenik. You talked a lot about the advance act and the need for congress to kind of stay on top of it, um, and its implementation. Do you think it's time for a status report, or could you identify any areas where you're concerned that it isn't being implemented? Or we should be, um, following up, uh, asking more questions?
▶ 4:22:39>> uh, I do think it's time again. I'll say for the nrc perspective, I think they actually have some good data points to share to demonstrate that they've made some significant progress. And I think you'll see, as a direct result of the advance act. At the same token, you've heard a lot of conversation today about staffing at the nrc. Um, I would say you were very, um, thoughtful and putting some things in the advance act that are some tools for the nrc to use to help with staffing, right? Some retention elements, some things for bonus, some pay structures.
▶ 4:23:09And so I think with the concerns on staffing, it would be a great opportunity to see, are they using those tools that you put in the advance act to help them with their staffing? Right. >> very good. Thank you. Um, let's see, Mr. williams can't leave southern company off the hook without getting another question. Uh, have a lot of experience with your company and have appreciated the interaction over the years.
▶ 4:23:36Uh, you talked a lot about, um, some of the, the, uh, risks and the challenges that your company face and, and, um, could you share a little bit more about your ideas for de-risking these investments and not leaving companies like yours kind of out there, uh, bearing the brunt of proving out some of these new technologies. >> sure. Thank you for the question. Um, we we have viewed the risk in kind of three areas.
▶ 4:24:06The first is the initial capital cost investments that that's required. There are a number of tools available today, uh, whether they're investment tax credits, production tax credits. The loan program office is a was a critical asset to us during the project. Those are all things that allowed us to bring that would bring down the initial capital investment that's required.
▶ 4:24:27The second item is as as we, uh, expend that capital over the long construction period, we need to do things to protect the credit rating of the developer during that period of time. So the ability to, uh, transfer those tax credits provides the provides the cash flow necessary.
▶ 4:24:47It maintains the credit rating of the utility or the developer while they're building and, again, protects ratepayers, um, from downgrades in that utility, uh, credit rating. And then last is the macroeconomic risk I highlighted in my testimony today.
▶ 4:25:03You know, while we built vogel, we experienced three macroeconomic events that ultimately impacted the cost and schedule of our project and our we don't believe that as we rebuild this industry in the united states, that our customers and our companies should be on the hook for those costs. For instance, we experienced a global pandemic. Our customers shouldn't have to pay for that type of risk.
▶ 4:25:27So a solution to help protect against those macroeconomic events, to protect our customers from those that occur. >> okay. Very good. Happy to work with you on your ideas on that. I have just 25 seconds, and I did want to get a few thoughts from, uh, doctor wagner on updating the waste policy act. Can you share some quick ideas for what you think, uh, should be done to make that more? >> I would say in the time I have, I can't say a lot, but I'd say it in a high level.
▶ 4:25:56And that is the nuclear waste policy act was was developed more than 40 years ago in a very different time when we were not building out new nuclear in the way that we are, and we were not interested as a nation in recycling and many other aspects. And so there's a number of other there's a number of aspects in there with respect to the structure of it, the incentives that are there and the cost controls, uh, of the nuclear waste fund that that I think should be reconsidered. >> so my staff followed back up with you.
▶ 4:26:25What could we have a more in-depth conversation on? >> that would be great. >> that'd be great. Thank you, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from oregon, second district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, mister chair. And thanks, all of you for your patience with all of us today. Let's stick with the waste issue. I'm from oregon. It's one of the states with a ban. I was just looking at the list of states with some sort of restrictions.
▶ 4:26:53Uh, new jersey, massachusetts, oregon, hawaii, a bunch of them. So you said that there that whatever the law is on this space, because I'm not familiar with what we're doing federally, certainly know what happened in oregon. What can we do to address that issue now that's changed in the 40 or 40 years since? Actually, more than that. >> so first of all, you or come from the state, as you know. Well, and I should start with thank you for the question.
▶ 4:27:19Uh, but, uh, the trojan reactor, uh, was prematurely shut down and decommissioned. And so you're probably familiar with that site that there is nothing left there except for the spent fuel casks, uh, that house, the spent fuel safely and securely. Uh, and what I would imagine that the people in that region would like to do is have that material removed from that site. So the site could be used for other purposes. Uh, the structures that we've had in the, in the politics around, um, our long term solution have not resolved that issue.
▶ 4:27:48And so I think that's a great example of what needs to be resolved, whether that's an interim storage facility that's enabled and how those those aspects are dealt with is all wrapped up into the nuclear waste policy act. >> right now. How many different places do we have nuclear waste stored across the united states? >> I don't remember that number. I might defer to miss korzenik on that. >> yeah, 50 some locations, because the government has never, um, picked up the used fuel.
▶ 4:28:18It's stored at every, uh, nuclear site that we have. Um, and you've had to build additional structures. When I was the site vp at the plant in new york, we had to build the first interim storage for that plant in order to. >> what cost do you think that adds to your megawatt hour, the storage of this stuff? Or maybe the better way to put it is the future storage, because it's a long time. >> yeah, actually it's costing the taxpayers, um, because we have sued the federal government because we had to have this incurred costs.
▶ 4:28:47And so now they are having to pay for this at each of these individual sites. >> and I went up and visited the hanford site and saw the vitrification and exercise going on there. And the steps they're taking. Is that something that's happening in each one of these plants? >> so the hanford site has, uh, waste from the federal government. And so that's a different style of waste. Um, the waste at each of the operating nuclear plants is solid fuel and solid casks.
▶ 4:29:14So very safely. >> recycling is the most likely. Uh, but I want to I have other I want to go to china for a second. >> sure. Recycling is is a part of an integrated, uh, storage solution. Um, but I would just say it's not going to prevent the need from a deep geological repository. So it's just a piece. And I agree with what you're just conversation.
▶ 4:29:38You're just having, um, that I think the nuclear waste policy act needs to be sort of refreshed, uh, with a look of what's really needed today. >> what's france doing? What's france doing? It's got all kinds of nuclear activity. Does france store all this stuff at each site? Uh. >> france's reprocessing. And, um, they are also looking at a deep geological repository to house what's left, if you will, after reprocessing. >> it seems like we ought to be working with whoever else is struggling with the same issue.
▶ 4:30:09Uh, I'll skip over china for a minute and go to vogel. For years. Before I got here, I owned stock in southern company. So god blessed with a report every year showing how much more it was going to cost. And so I'm just curious why you went with nuclear and not gas years ago. I looked at the cost. I think it was 15 billion wh<u>%</u>n I when it started, it was like 30 or 37 when you guys got done. So it's a this is a successful plant as I understand it, because I talked to a congressman carter about it.
▶ 4:30:36Oh, I'm sorry I listened to congressman carter about it a lot. And, uh, and he's very supportive. Uh, so tell me, why not gas all those years ago? And do you regret the decision? >> so. So thanks for your question. And I would say it was the right decision. When we made it in 2009, it was the right decision to keep going in 2017. We're thrilled to have 2200mw of baseload energy available for the for the people of georgia. You have to go back. It was a very different time when we started building.
▶ 4:31:03We started building vogel uh, we needed baseload generation in our service territory, and natural gas was around $10 per million btu. So the lowest cost option for our customers at that time was to build vogel. >> and right now, well, who knows? You can't look. You can't look back. I guess without knowing you could have done it better. And yeah, that's obvious. I'm going to quickly go back to you, to china for just a moment. Are we going to ever catch up when it comes to nuclear?
▶ 4:31:31Seriously, with all of this stuff, the number of nuclear faces here, china seems to be zooming ahead. Are they much less safe over in china now because of the way they're doing it? >> do you love this country? Because I do, and there's no question that we're going to zoom ahead of china. >> um, and sadly, I can't respond. I've got to yield back. >> gentleman, time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania's 13th district for five minutes for questions.
▶ 4:32:02>> thank you. Chairman and ranking member castor, for holding this important hearing. And to our witnesses for this long day and for testifying. American energy dominance is essential to keeping the united states at the cutting edge of the new technological and economic advancements.
▶ 4:32:17It is a critical component to ensuring that all americans and yes, I am on that list of those who love america, that we have access to reliable, affordable electricity to power our daily lives that increasingly rely on these new technologies. My home state, the wonderful commonwealth of pennsylvania, is well suited to meet this increased demand.
▶ 4:32:42In addition to our wealth of natural resources like coal and natural gas, pennsylvania is in the midst of an exciting new developments as we enter another golden age for nuclear energy. This congress, we have done important work to support the development of new energy projects, including through the establishment of the energy dominance financing program in the working families tax cuts act.
▶ 4:33:08This program recalibrates department of energy loan authority moving away from green new deal priorities and towards establishing american energy dominance. Mr. williams, in your testimony, you mentioned how support from the doe energy dominance financing program can further lower the costs of projects for customers. Would you please discuss further how this doe initiative helps mitigate the effect of new projects on consumer rates?
▶ 4:33:40>> so thank you for that question. During the the vogel construction, we we, our georgia power as well as our co-owners all received loans from the loan program office. Uh, this low cost capital we were able to use to finance the construction of that over the period of time, ultimately, because we were paying less for that cost of capital, those savings pass through to our customers.
▶ 4:34:07And that's how the the loan program office can say that hundreds of millions of dollars in savings were provided to our customers through the loans that were provided to us during the construction of vogel. >> do you think this program will significantly continue to decrease the cost to the consumer? >> we believe that this program is critical for new nuclear development in the united states to make it more affordable for our customers. >> thank you.
▶ 4:34:33In the great commonwealth of pennsylvania, constellation energy is undertaking an incredible project to restart a nuclear reactor at the crane clean energy center. When this plant comes back online, it will provide a much needed 835mw of baseload power, as well as creating over 600 new jobs.
▶ 4:34:57Recognizing how important this restart is to lower energy costs for americans and at the same time strengthening grid reliability, secretary wright and the doe provided a $1 billion loan to the energy dominance finance program. Miss kuznick, how else can congress support the deployment of nuclear energy projects like the crane clean energy center and restart and see at the same time that we can protect the consumer and protect the taxpayer?
▶ 4:35:28>> yeah. Thank you. And we really look forward to joining you. When the crane clean energy center comes back online. Um, it's a it was a very well run plant before it was shut down. And it's going to be even a better running plant when it restarts. Um, and so yeah. Thank you. Your question is around restarts, but I'll broaden it for just other ways that the government can help. Um, as we build these new units.
▶ 4:35:50And you've heard a couple of times in the testimony here about, uh, how the capital profile is, um, very capital intensive on the front end of these projects. And one of the reasons it's so capital intensive is you have to buy your long lead items up front because they take several years to construct. So these are like your pressure vessels, your steam generators, these large components. And so, you know, one thing I think that we could look at from a government perspective is to place some of these orders for long lead items.
▶ 4:36:19So we get the supply chain moving. And then as these projects need them, if you will, they could buy them back, uh, from the government. And I think that that would be a very, um, strong way of encouraging the supply chain to get moving. >> thank you. This congress, in coordination with president trump, has the opportunity to support a resurgence in american nuclear energy this year.
▶ 4:36:45I look forward to working with this committee to build on these positive steps that we have already taken to help lower energy costs and improve affordability and accessibility for all americans. And again, I will reiterate, reiterate that we on energy and commerce, we do love america. Thank you. >> the gentleman's time has expired and yields back.
▶ 4:37:08The chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank all of you all for being here. I think I'm the last one. So you almost home? Almost finished. Um, ladies and gentlemen, as you heard, I'm from the state of georgia. We're very proud of the fact that we have built the first two nuclear reactors in the last 30 years at plant vogel, the largest clean energy plant in the country.
▶ 4:37:37We're very, very proud of that. In fact, I will tell you that in the state of georgia right now, nuclear energy is providing about 30% of our energy needs in the state right now, and it's anticipated in the next decade, because we have, for 12 years in a row, been the number in which to do business, is anticipated that we're probably going to need about 9500 more megawatts of, of, um, of electricity.
▶ 4:38:03And that equates to about two nuclear or two plant vocals. So we're going to need a lot more electricity in the state of georgia as time goes on. And we're preparing for it. And I'm very proud, as I say, of my state and the work that we've done in energy. One of the reasons why we've been the number one state in which to do business for 12 years in a row is because of the fact that we've had reliable baseload, affordable energy, and certainly that's important. Um, Mr.
▶ 4:38:30Williams, I want to ask you, can you elaborate more about what was learned from building vogel units three and four? And did that project help pave the way for future ap1000 reactors? >> thank you, congressman, and I appreciate your kind words about vogel. Uh, we are uh, vogel was tremendous in terms of jumpstarting, uh, this nuclear, uh, period that we're in right now.
▶ 4:38:55Um, as we we talked earlier from from vogel units 3 to 4, we experienced a 20% reduction in cost. We tested and commissioned unit four in half the time, and that was based on the application of lessons learned that we had, you know, some one of the most important lessons that we learned at vogel was you don't start construction until the design is complete, that you you make sure that that everything is ready to go before you bring the workforce on site to begin putting it together.
▶ 4:39:23Uh, and that was a critical learning for us. We also learned, um, things about the the new licensing process that vogel was the first to use with part 52. All of these learnings can be passed on to the next ap1000, which we think would experience similar cost reductions that we experienced from 3 to 4. But also these learnings apply to other technologies as well as they look to be, uh, to build their technologies. >> I want to elaborate on two things that you talked about.
▶ 4:39:53And that was, number one, the savings between 3 and 4. There were significant savings. And the things that we learned between the building of reactor number three and reactor number four that resulted in significant savings. Is that correct? >> that's correct. We saved approximately 20%, um, in costs going from unit three to unit four. >> a couple other things I want to mention.
▶ 4:40:14First of all, um, I think it's interesting to note that I've been told and I don't think it was in confidence, but I think that, you know, it was made public that really if we do build more nuclear reactors in the state of georgia, they are looking more toward the ap1000 as opposed to the small molecular reactors. >> we we believe in. The design wants build many approach to nuclear construction. We have built. We are currently operating two ap1000.
▶ 4:40:44When we look at the technologies that are available to us today, we believe that the, uh, the best option for our customers and the least cost would be the ap1000, should we choose and should we mitigate the risk and the barriers that we've laid out here today, should we mitigate those risks? We believe the ap1000 is the right technology. >> great.
▶ 4:41:05One other thing is that whereas I obviously appreciate southern company and their their commitment to this, the the emc also were committed to this as well. Oglethorpe power and some of the others in the state of georgia. So it was truly a collaborative effort and a team effort. >> that's exactly right, congressman. There were four, four owners of that.
▶ 4:41:25That unit, which represents all of the the utility customers in georgia, obviously, georgia power company with the largest share, oglethorpe power company, the municipal electric authority of georgia and the city of dalton. >> good. Last thing. Tell me about the federal involvement. How was the federal, um, the federal policies and commitments and guarantees? How important were they?
▶ 4:41:53>> the public private partnership was critical to building vogel. We've talked about the loan programs and the loans that we received that ultimately saved our customers hundreds of millions of dollars. Also, the production tax credits that were available, uh, for vogel, are reducing the cost of those units for our customers today. >> I would be remiss if I did not mention, because I represent plant hatch and they're in my district, and that also makes up part of the 30% of the power that is generated through nuclear power for the state of georgia.
▶ 4:42:23Again, as you can tell, I'm very proud of our state and what we've done. That's why I waved on to this subcommittee. I'm not a member. I'm a member of the full committee, but not this subcommittee. But I wanted to sing our praises in the state of georgia and what we've done in nuclear energy. So thank you all, all, for being here. And I'll yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. And seeing no further members wishing to ask questions, I think you can see from the even though I first, I want to thank you all for your patience.
▶ 4:42:52When we had the briefing for about an hour and a half, and for you all staying, uh, that you can see that there's a lot of interest in nuclear power. What's going on? So greatly appreciate it. And thank you for being with us today. Members may have additional written questions for you. And I remind members that they have ten business days to submit additional questions, for the record. And I ask our witnesses to do their best to submit those responses within ten business days.
▶ 4:43:18Upon receipt of the questions, I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the documents included on the staff hearing documents list and without objection, so ordered and without objection. The subcommittee is adjourned. Thank you very much.