▶ 0:16:52On water, wildlife and fisheries will come to order. Good afternoon everyone. I am sorry that I am a few minutes late. I just came off the floor and this morning we have been busy in the judiciary committee, so I do want to welcome all the members, witnesses and our guests in the audience in today's hearing. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time.
▶ 0:17:18Under committee rule four f any oral opening statements at hearings are limited to the chair and the ranking member. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other members opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with committee rule three. Oh, without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the congressman from montana, Mr. downing, and the congressman from illinois, Mr.
▶ 0:17:47Bass, to be to allowed participate in today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered. We are here today to hold an oversight hearing titled hunting and fishing access in the great american outdoors. I now recognize myself for a five minute opening statement. Today, the subcommittee will examine an issue of great importance to all of our districts and to the millions of americans who enjoy hunting and fishing access on our nation's public lands and waters.
▶ 0:18:15Depending on where your district is located, the nature of access for hunting and fishing brings different examples to mind. Hunting at a national wildlife refuge, navigating the checkerboard of western federal lands, or state management of the south atlantic red snapper fishery, to name just a few. I look forward to having a robust discussion on a range of topics today. Hunting and fishing are a way of life for millions of americans, and support billions of dollars in economic activities and species conservation.
▶ 0:18:44Under this subcommittee's jurisdiction is the national wildlife refuge system, a crown jewel of american conservation whose full potential remains untapped for providing even greater access for responsible hunting and fishing activities. By way of just one example, according to an analysis conducted by an organization called the delta waterfowl, there are at least 100 refuge refuges that should provide more access to sportsmen and women. But barriers still remain.
▶ 0:19:14I do want to commend the work of the trump administration, which has since taking office, sought to expand hunting and fishing access to the refuge system as part of the final 2025 2026 so-called hunt fish rule.
▶ 0:19:28This final rule opened 42 new hunting and fishing opportunities at 16 refuge units across more than 87,000 acres, thereby more than tripling the number of opportunities and increasing the number of refuge units opened or expanded by a factor of five as compared to the biden administration's proposed rule.
▶ 0:19:50I also look forward to hearing more about the secretarial order on hunting and fishing access that was signed by secretary burgum just this morning, and I also commend doctor nesvik for instituting a full scale review of the refuge system, something that is long overdue and an action that I believe will make our refuge system even better.
▶ 0:20:10I hope this us fish and wildlife service review focuses on how the refuge system can make existing resources go further, and assesses opportunities for greater coordination with nonfederal partners to better manage individual refuges across the country. In addition to america's lands, access to our federal waters is another important part of achieving the goals of sportsman's access. Consistent with the goals of the trump administration in recent years.
▶ 0:20:37Inadequate and incomplete data combined with heavy handed regulations, have threatened to limit access to america's fishery resources by ensuring that regulations are developed using the most accurate and most complete data, and developed through a collaborative approach where all voices are heard. We can increase americans access to our nation's waters in a way that incentivizes recreation, while encouraging good stewardship.
▶ 0:21:03Lastly, I would be remiss not to mention that coming from a western public lands state, the vast federal estate creates its own challenges when it comes to providing access while protecting the rights of private property owners. This is one of the many reasons why I'm so glad that brian nesvik from the greatest state in the nation, wyoming, is our fish and wildlife service director, and we are grateful to have him here with us today.
▶ 0:21:26I look forward to having a robust and substantive discussion on how to better manage these federal resources. I now recognize ranking member hoyle for her opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair, and thank you to our witness here today. Um, hunting and fishing and outdoor recreation are bipartisan issues. And I'm glad we're here today to talk about how we can keep working together to support and protect recreation on our public lands.
▶ 0:21:56Hunting and fishing are not just hobbies. They're how many of my constituents feed their families. How communities come together and how we connect to the land and our food sources. When we get young people out into the outdoors, they it helps them build critical thinking skills, increase physical fitness, and gain respect for the environment and their place in it.
▶ 0:22:18It also offers an opportunity to build focus and their attention span and connection with the real world. I'm sure we can all agree that our youth would be better off being engaged in outdoor sports, as opposed to being on social media or online games. Oregon's outdoor economy supports over 170,000 jobs nationwide. Outdoor recreation generates $1.2 trillion a year.
▶ 0:22:48Conservation is good for families and good for our economy. America's sportsmen and women are some of the strongest advocates for healthy wildlife and conservation of our habitats. Congress enacted the landmark pittman-robertson act in 1937, and the dingell johnson act followed in 1950. Through these programs, hunters and anglers pay excise taxes on certain equipment to support conservation.
▶ 0:23:14In 2025 alone, hunters and anglers contributed $1.3 billion. That goes right back to states to manage wildlife and keep lands open. In 1964, congress enacted the land and water conservation fund, which is arguably the most important program for preserving outdoor spaces and improving access for outdoor recreation conservation projects in my district.
▶ 0:23:41Um, like protecting the yaquina head natural area or the west eugene wetlands could not have happened without lwcf funds. In 2020, congress continued this tradition with the great american outdoors act. It passed with strong support from both parties, and president trump signed it into law.
▶ 0:24:02We have broad agreement across the political spectrum that public lands should stay public, and that hunters and anglers deserve access to the places their dollars help protect, and that the land and water conservation fund has been one of our best investments to accomplish these goals. We can build on this agreement to address the challenges that our public lands face.
▶ 0:24:26The national wildlife refuge system is the largest network of protected lands and waters in the world, focused on wildlife conservation. While you may have to travel for hours to visit a national park, I'm lucky enough not to have to. National wildlife refuges are often closer to communities and more accessible to americans across every state and territory, but the refuge system's funding is consistently far below the levels necessary to achieve its mission.
▶ 0:24:55A recent analysis shows refuge systems need $900 million a year to adequately maintain facilities, provide visitor services, conduct research, and hire the law enforcement officers needed to protect people and wildlife. But we've been stuck just below 540 million for a decade. That means reduced services, more closures and ultimately less access for visitors. I'm looking forward to hearing from our witnesses today.
▶ 0:25:21I want to discuss how we can work together to keep our public lands in public hands, and fund our refuges and conservation programs, get more young people into the outdoors, and build on our nation's bipartisan conservation legacy. The sportsmen and women who fund conservation and recreation in these areas deserve our commitment to public lands for this generation and for generations to come. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 0:25:52>> thank you. The chair now recognizes chairman westerman for his opening statement. >> thank you chair, and good afternoon, everyone. Um, this is a great hearing that we're going to have today. And I thank the witnesses who traveled to washington to be with us. Uh, the topic of this afternoon's hearing is of, uh, big significance, not only to me and to my home state, but to me in of america.
▶ 0:26:18Millions of americans, uh, throughout my career in congress, have made conserving and increasing access to our nation's public lands for hunting and fishing a major policy priority in this committee has worked on bipartisan, uh, on a bipartisan basis with members from across the house to pass bipartisan legislation such as the explore act, to reauthorize critical programs like nakha and provide duck hunters with the ability to carry duck stamps.
▶ 0:26:44As we start the new year and celebrate america's 250th birthday, I look forward to continuing this work. This includes getting bills across the finish line, like the fix our forest act, which will improve the conservation of forest habitats critical for sportsmen and women.
▶ 0:27:00Uh, and in addition, I look forward to moving a reauthorization of the great american outdoors act, which will include provisions designed to ensure that reducing the maintenance backlog on our federal lands prioritizes projects that directly benefit habitat and sportsmen's access in the national wildlife refuge system and beyond. The future of the national wildlife refuge system is critical in my district, which is home to four refuges. Over the years, I've worked with U.S.
▶ 0:27:28Fish and wildlife and my constituents to foster cooperative relationships for the betterment of these refuges and the wildlife that depend upon them. Uh, the best and and most recent example is the national wildlife refuge in polk county. I visited holloman nearly four years ago after constituents expressed concerns with its condition and the significant decline of waterfowl using the refuge as a rest area, which is the stated purpose of the refuge.
▶ 0:27:55Uh, when I visited, it was obvious that the refuge had fallen into disrepair. There was only one full time employee for the entire refuge. She was doing the best she could to answer the phones, mow the grass, clean the restrooms and everything else in between. Uh, to remedy this situation, the service entered into a cooperative farming agreement with local farmers to grow rice and japanese millet in the refuge.
▶ 0:28:19The relationship has been a great success, resulting in over 1 million waterfowl energy days annually for wintering waterfowl. These habitat improvements have been a great success for my constituents, and we can replicate this success around the country. Uh. I look forward to working closely with director nesbitt to help provide the tools necessary to better the refuge system for generations to come. He has already taken steps to enhance access, uh, across the system.
▶ 0:28:48And just this morning, secretary burgum issued a secretarial order on hunting and fishing access across federal lands. Again, I look forward to learning more about this initiative and I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I now recognize ranking member huffman for his opening. >> thank you, madam chair. Uh, I'm glad we're having this hearing today.
▶ 0:29:07It's a very important subject because, uh, we need a conversation about what's working and what can be improved with respect to hunting and fishing and outdoor recreation across the great american outdoors. This is a topic that's always enjoyed bipartisan support on this committee, and I hope we can continue in that spirit. I think it's important to acknowledge that sportsmen and women have been at the forefront of public land and wildlife conservation in the united states, going all the way back to the beginning.
▶ 0:29:35Uh, we cannot have this conversation without recognizing their leadership. Hunters, anglers. Outdoor recreationists. Um, these are folks who understand the importance of protecting habitat of healthy wildlife populations.
▶ 0:29:50And of course, they understand and appreciate the importance of public access, not only for the recreational opportunities inherent in that, but for local economies, um, conservation programs, more than 2.5 million jobs that these activities support nationwide. That's another part of this important conversation. Now, americans are united on this subject.
▶ 0:30:14I know that sometimes public lands, um, get disparaged as a nuisance, as a problem in some of our political debates. Don't tell that to the american people, because, uh, overwhelmingly, 74% of americans want more public lands, not less.
▶ 0:30:32Programs like the land and water conservation fund and the national wildlife refuge system have enjoyed decades of bipartisan support because they deliver real results for communities, wildlife and local economies. These investments strengthen rural economies, they create jobs, and they ensure that outdoors are outdoors, remain accessible to everyone. So we have some opportunities before us, madam chair. Um, we have an opportunity with the great outdoors act, uh, to reauthorize it.
▶ 0:31:01As chairman westerman uh, referenced, this is a prime example of bipartisanship delivering real, tangible results. It's made historic investments in our national parks and public lands helped address long overdue maintenance backlogs, while strengthening public access.
▶ 0:31:19And, uh, we also have long standing wildlife funding programs like the pittman-robertson wildlife restoration act, the sports fish restoration and boating trust fund, state and tribal wildlife grants programs. These demonstrate the power of science based, well-funded conservation focused on long term stewardship and not just short term gain. So at the same time, we've got a lot of work to do.
▶ 0:31:45Uh, the national refuge system has been chronically underfunded. As ranking member hoyle mentioned a moment ago, uh, this continues to be a problem. We're now facing staffing shortages that compound that problem. Half of our refuges are underfunded. Uh, these challenges affect everything from routine maintenance to invasive species management. Ultimately, they affect public access as well, and addressing them will require continued bipartisan commitment and sustained investment.
▶ 0:32:15So, uh, as we look ahead, uh, let us continue to to try to be worthy of that bipartisan legacy and tradition. Our parks, refuges and recreation areas are experiencing record levels of use. So this is important and timely. And to meet that growing pressure, we need to work together to ensure those lands remain accessible to the public. I think the path forward is fairly clear.
▶ 0:32:39If we're serious about protecting public lands and ensuring continued access for hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation, we need to use the land and water conservation fund as intended, and we need to reauthorize the legacy restoration fund to address the deferred maintenance backlog. I hope we can do these things on a bipartisan basis. Look forward to the testimony we're about to receive, and I yield back. >> thank you. I will now introduce our first witness panel, which is Mr.
▶ 0:33:09Brian nesvik, the director of the united states fish and wildlife service here in washington, dc under committee rules. Mr. nesvik, you must limit your oral statement to five minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone. And as you know, we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green.
▶ 0:33:33When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn red, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn yellow, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I now recognize Mr. nesvik for five minutes. >> well, good afternoon and thank you, madam chairman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. It's good to be in the presence of a fellow poke fan. Um, anytime you're in washington, dc, and you can be in the presence of other folks fans, it's a good day.
▶ 0:34:01It's a good way to a good way to celebrate an afternoon. So, um, as you indicated, my name is brian nesvik, and I'm pleased to be back in before this subcommittee, um, in my new role as the united states director of the united states fish and wildlife service. Director, appreciate this opportunity. Um, the members have laid out very well. Um, some really important issues that I look forward to discussing here today. Before I begin, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge congressman doug lamalfa dedication, public service, and contributions to natural resource policy.
▶ 0:34:30I had the pleasure to work with congressman lamalfa last year on water management in california, sierra valley, wolf conflict and other issues, and his deep knowledge of the issues important to his constituents and his fierce advocacy set a high bar for all of us to aspire to, and he will be dearly missed. As you all know well, I want to extend my deepest condolences to his family, friends, colleagues and staff regarding the topic of today's hearing.
▶ 0:34:57I am pleased to testify in the service's efforts to expand access for hunting and fishing on our public lands and waters, a priority for this administration. Sportsmen and women play pivotal roles in hunting and fishing are cornerstones to the american model of wildlife management. America's conservation legacy is one to be proud of, and is deeply rooted in tradition and strong commitments from those who value and use those resources.
▶ 0:35:22America's model, where wildlife resources are managed in trust for all of our citizens, remains the bedrock of wildlife conservation across the united states today, as you mentioned, secretary burgum issued a secretarial order providing clear guidance to all bureaus in the department of interior that federal lands should be open to hunting and fishing unless specific legally, legally supported exceptions apply at the service will be implementing the secretary's order by identifying new hunting and fishing opportunities on service lands
▶ 0:35:52And waters, cutting red tape for hunters and anglers, and strengthening our collaboration with states, tribes and territories. As director, I'm also going to be reviewing any decision or plan that could impact hunting or fishing access to make sure we're doing everything we can to keep public lands open for the american people. The service is already working to expand opportunities for hunting and fishing on national wildlife refuges and our national fish hatcheries through annual updates to our station specific hunting and fishing programs.
▶ 0:36:23And madam chairman, you did a great job of outlining this past year's accomplishments. And so I will I will skip over that in the interest of time. Looking ahead to future annual updates, my goal is that all refuges and hatcheries are open to hunting and fishing within two years, except in rare cases where conflicts with legal mandates, public safety or sensitive species or habitats exist, improving access for hunters and anglers. Anglers also means making sure the public can focus on enjoying the outdoors.
▶ 0:36:52Instead of navigating complex regulations, we are striving to align the service's hunting and fishing regulations with those of surrounding states and local governments. Lowering these barriers to entry can help recruit, retain and reactivate new and returning hunters and anglers and keep these traditions thriving. Finally, we are focusing on repairing and modernizing hunting blinds, fishing docks, roads, and other assets that support hunting and fishing access on national wildlife refuges.
▶ 0:37:21The great american outdoors act legacy restoration fund has been instrumental to these improvements, providing the service with $475 million from fiscal year 21 to 25 to address deferred maintenance needs on refuges. This funding supported repairs to infrastructure that hunters and anglers rely on at many of our nation's most visited national wildlife refuges.
▶ 0:37:44The president's fiscal year 26 budget requests reauthorization of the goa legacy restoration fund to ensure that we can continue to keep our public lands safe, accessible and enjoyable for future generations to come. I look forward to working with this subcommittee to continue expanding access for hunting and fishing on service lands and waters, and would welcome the opportunity to continue the conversation that we have here today.
▶ 0:38:09Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I'll be pleased to answer your questions that you ask here today, or those that you may submit for the record. >> wonderful. Thank you, Mr. nesvik. I will now recognize members for five minutes each for questions. And I'm going to begin with myself. Uh, this is something that I have been raising since the moment that I arrived in congress over three years ago.
▶ 0:38:29Director nesvik last congress, I asked the then deputy director of policy at the us fish and wildlife service, steve girton, if a petition to list the greater yellowstone grizzly bear was submitted today with the service list the species in, his answer was probably not, and I agree with that. Do you agree with his answer? And should the greater yellowstone ecosystem grizzly bear be delisted?
▶ 0:38:55>> well, thank you, madam chair and I, I do agree with the response that deputy director girton provided you then, and I've testified before this committee before, based on some of my own personal experiences regarding the recovery efforts that have occurred over 50 years in the ecosystem that you described, um, largely on the backs of those folks who work, live and recreate, um, in areas where grizzly bears have recovered. And so I do believe recovery is is clear.
▶ 0:39:25And now it's my job in this role to consider, um, how we use the best available science to move forward with future policy around grizzly bear, not only in the greater yellowstone ecosystem, but also in the lower 48. >> so I know that there are five factors under the endangered species act for both listing and delisting. It's the same five factors.
▶ 0:39:48Would you agree with me that the greater yellowstone ecosystem, grizzly bear population and the management, uh, program that is in place by the state of wyoming, that it meets all of those criteria for delisting. >> madam chairman? Um, yes. And that, uh, that decision has actually been made two different times previous to to now, as you're well aware, by, um, involving three different presidential administrations from both parties.
▶ 0:40:17Um, and so, um, now we do find ourselves though, where, where the courts have issued decisions that we need to sort through the complexities of and figure out, um, what that policy, what that means for to inform policy for the future. >> well, you and I both have read too many articles of individuals who have been injured by grizzly bears in wyoming and surrounding states.
▶ 0:40:40How does an overabundance of federally protected predator species like the grizzly bear impact game species and the safety of hunters, fishermen and women and recreators? >> well, in my experience, there's broad support for grizzly bear viability and strong, healthy grizzly bear populations in those habitats that are both biologically and socially suitable.
▶ 0:41:03I think where most of the conflict that you describe largely occurs is in those areas outside of areas that are biologically and socially suitable, um, when grizzly bears find themselves, um, in habitats. Uh, I've experienced this personally where they're in and amongst cornfields or in developed areas where there are a lot of people, grizzly bears, nor people do very well. It's not good for the grizzly bear, and it's not good for people.
▶ 0:41:30And so, um, that is certainly one of the consequences of a success story where recovery is achieved in the core recovery area. But now bears have moved beyond that into areas that are really not suitable, um, because of human conflict. >> well, in an overabundance of grizzly bears in those areas that are not suitable habitat, it actually places our hunters, our fishermen and women and our recreators at risk of great bodily injury and even death, doesn't it?
▶ 0:42:00>> yes, madam chairman, unfortunately there have been many cases of all of the above. >> so, uh, at one time, the fish and wildlife service described the greater yellowstone ecosystem area as being saturated with grizzly bears, and there simply wasn't room for additional bears. It was one of the reasons that they recommended that the grizzly bear and the grizzly bear be delisted. And I think that that's exactly what you're describing as well.
▶ 0:42:24The bears have now moved into areas that are not traditional habitat in more urban areas, into farm ground and areas where they are creating great risks for our hunters and anglers. Uh, as you know, the state of wyoming has invested literally millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars to recover the greater yellowstone grizzly bear. And the resources to invest in that recovery would not be possible without excise tax revenues paid by hunters and anglers.
▶ 0:42:51How does maintaining and expanding hunting and fishing access on national wildlife refuges, as you are currently doing? How does that benefit retention and the recruitment of new hunters and anglers and access? >> well, certainly, madam chairman, you know, one of the biggest barriers to hunters being able to go out and take part in hunting and angling is having access.
▶ 0:43:14And so the more access that we can provide, both from the federal government's perspective as well as others, including private landowners, including state wildlife management agencies and all of the other federal agencies, that we have a real opportunity to have a direct impact on those hunters and anglers having access and increased ability to hunt. >> okay. Thank you, I appreciate that.
▶ 0:43:39And the chair now calls on ranking member hoffman for his five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chair. Director nesvik, it's good to have you here. Thank you. Um, I want to ask you about a directive that you issued on december 16th, ordering a comprehensive top to bottom review of the national wildlife refuge system and national fish hatchery system.
▶ 0:44:01The directive ordered staff to, quote, look for refuges or hatcheries established for purposes that no longer align with the mission of the agency. So I would like to ask you, what specific criteria are you using to determine whether a refuge is original? Purpose no longer aligns with the fish and wildlife service mission. >> so thank you, ranking member hoffman.
▶ 0:44:28And and so the, uh, that portion of the directive, that component, um, I gave the team broad latitude to look at the documents that were, um, originally used to execute the the acquisition of the refuge and to to look at what those purposes were at the time the refuge was established, and then evaluate that and make sure that that purpose still is, um, the, the mission for that particular refuge and it's still being executed.
▶ 0:44:56And then to compare it also to the current, um, the current priorities and goals and objectives for the service. >> by that, do you mean the different policy directives that president trump has put in place for all federal agencies through his executive orders? >> ranking member hoffman certainly, that's a part of our current goals and objectives would be the current administration's policies and executive order. Secretary of the orders, all of the above. >> yeah.
▶ 0:45:23Um, can can you provide an example of I mean, you must have had something in mind to to start this top to bottom review of all the refuges. Are there examples of one or more that you know might seem out of step with those new priorities? >> ranking member hoffman no, I don't have any preconceived notion of any specific refuge or specific fish hatchery that doesn't meet those.
▶ 0:45:46But, you know, I have heard, um, folks indicate to me that this is something that, um, is worthy of looking at, and it makes sense to me when you're going to do a top to bottom audit of a system that's so large, like the wildlife refuge system and the national fish hatchery system, that it makes sense to look at the founding purpose and then how we're executing that. Now. >> you can't give us any examples of of a refuge that might be, uh, in in conflict with those considerations. >> no, sir.
▶ 0:46:17>> okay. It's it's a concern, uh, because literally, as we're meeting right now, there's a there's a story that just broke on punchbowl news that, uh, republicans are going to do a reconciliation. 2.0. And at the top of that list is a sell off of public lands. And we've seen proposals to sell off public lands in this committee and in this congress before. We've seen members of the administration talk about it.
▶ 0:46:41Can you assure us that, um, you know, for example, your directive says to seek opportunities to achieve efficiencies in the areas of governance, oversight and span of control. Given this broader context of sell offs, can you assure us that this directive and this investigation is not going to result in the spinning off or selling off of refuge lands? >> well, ranking member huffman the intention for this order is in no way directed at trying to find lands to sell off. Right.
▶ 0:47:11>> I'm asking you as director, will you oppose that? If someone comes back to you with this idea, will you oppose that? >> well, ranking member huffman, there's I'm not going to be pre-decisional or speculate on how I may use different information. I will tell you that today, um, we oftentimes have exchanges of refuge lands for other lands that are like, you know, a similar trade that are authorized under congress, um, like value for like value.
▶ 0:47:40And so there's currently in process, there's three different ways that that the service, by law, um, has to follow in order to, um, evaluate any type of change of use of refuge lands or disposal. And we have lands that are even not owned by the service but are entered into through cooperative agreements. And so bottom line is, is my commitment is I will follow the law.
▶ 0:48:03>> well, congress has amended the refuge act, as you know, to generally prohibit disposal, but there may be some workarounds by spinning things off to states or private interests. Should americans be worried that that's where we're heading? Uh, under this administration, with management of refuges? >> uh, ranking member huffman no, I don't I don't believe that anybody should be worried about what this administration is doing with public lands.
▶ 0:48:28There's been nothing, as is illustrated this morning from a secretarial order, but strong support for access and for public lands. Um, go is a great example of support from this administration for public lands. >> they should americans should not be worried that we're going to see proposals to sell off or spin off, or divest public lands or refuges specifically. Is that your testimony? >> uh, ranking member huffman I will speak specifically for refuges. And no, they should not. >> thank you. Yield back. >> chair now recognizes Mr.
▶ 0:48:59Mcdowell for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. And, uh, Mr. nesbitt, thank you for being with us today. You know, this is a really, really important committee, and I hate that, uh, that the chairwoman isn't using a duck call instead of a gavel. Uh, but you know, this this means a lot to people from central north carolina. Where where I represent to, uh, wyoming and montana and all across our country.
▶ 0:49:27And I just want to say that I appreciate, uh, what this administration is doing to protect hunters and fishermen, uh, and folks that want to take advantage of our great outdoors and everything that it has to offer us, uh, because it's important and it teaches things to, to, uh, different generations, you know, patience, respect of of, uh, something that doesn't belong to you, uh, on public land or respecting something that does on your own land.
▶ 0:49:54Um, this is about respecting, uh, our great outdoors. It's about our heritage and, uh, understanding where our food comes from, because it isn't always on a farm. Uh, and so I'm grateful for the work that you are doing. Uh, but want to discuss your role. Prior was as a state director. How does that, uh, experience how do you play off of that?
▶ 0:50:19To know kind of how it's better for states to have more of a say versus the federal government and conservation practices? >> well, thank thank you for the question, congressman. And I will tell you that, you know, first and foremost, um, as I mentioned in my opening statement, you know, wildlife are owned by, um, the public, they're owned by the citizens of our country, and specifically, they're owned by by states.
▶ 0:50:43And the states have a public trust responsibility, um, to manage those wildlife and trust for those people who own the wildlife. And so the, the, the state wildlife agencies have really the frontline role in managing wildlife within the boundaries of their states. And, and we have a role as the federal government to provide these public lands that we're talking about here today, specifically wildlife refuges and fish hatcheries.
▶ 0:51:06And so, um, I think that the most important partnership regarding hunting and fishing, that the that the service has is with those state and tribal wildlife management agencies and maintaining those relationships is one of my highest priorities. >> thank you. Um, can you give some examples of species or habitats that have improved because of the north american model of wildlife conservation that sportsmen helped fund?
▶ 0:51:36>> yeah, certainly. There's a very, very long list. And if you were to go back and look at the status of, of a lot of the big game species back in the early 1900s and compared them to now, um, it's absolutely amazing, you know, as numbers as low as 10,000 pronghorn antelope. And now there's well over half a million numbers of whitetail deer. I couldn't tell you what they were, but it's significantly increased, um, multiple fold, hundreds time fold what it was in the early 1900s. Same with with elk.
▶ 0:52:06Um, wild turkey, um, even many of the species that are not hunted and fished have been benefactors of hunters and anglers, contributing through the purchase of hunting and fishing licenses to the conservation of those other species as well.
▶ 0:52:24So it's it's a america has a really wonderful success story to tell about how we recovered, um, wildlife to a point where today we enjoy a tremendous diversity and a tremendous abundance across our country. >> absolutely. Um, switching gears a little bit, but, uh, something that worries me, uh, a lot is things like chronic wasting disease and whitetail deer. We've seen that kind of travel across the country.
▶ 0:52:53Uh, and it's into north carolina now. Uh, what are you all doing to address that? Uh, to help stop it? Or what can we do to help you deal with that? >> well, that's that's a great question that there's not any there's definitely not a silver bullet, because if there was, we would have already employed the silver bullet. Um, a lot of the responsibility with regards to disease management, because it affects big game species that are managed by the states. It really does fall to the states.
▶ 0:53:22But I think, you know, there have been federal, um, efforts, bills that have been passed that deal that that, um, look at disease task forces and some appropriations to help do research. I do believe that with regards to chronic wasting disease, there's more that we don't know than what we do.
▶ 0:53:39And so, um, I think there is a continued gap in funding for, um, by the, you know, specifically, the states will all tell you this to, to to be able to do research that will help inform how we can get a grip on this disease that is spreading across our entire country. >> gotcha. Well, thank you for for being here before us today. And, madam chair, I yield back. >> the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from california. >> thank you, madam chair, for recognizing me.
▶ 0:54:09Um, I want to focus my time today to discuss the urban wildlife conservation program, which falls within the us fish and wildlife services. Uh, this program has been highly successful in increasing awareness of wildlife conservation and the national wildlife refuge system for families living in urban centers.
▶ 0:54:30Uh, this program has built seven flagship urban national wildlife refuge and supported 32 designated urban partnerships. We have seen success throughout our country and helping ensure that americans who live in urban settings have opportunities to learn about our environment and the importance of conservation.
▶ 0:54:51Um, as you can see, you know, this program has been extremely successful, you know, from texas to new mexico to other urban areas and and getting youth and schools engaged, um, in outdoor education. Um, and I would love to see if it could be expanded to southern california. Um, director nesbitt, what is your vision for building on the success of the urban wildlife conservation program in 2026? >> well, congresswoman, thank you for the question.
▶ 0:55:18And I think you highlight something that is, um, is an important part of our conversation around the future of wildlife management and the future of, um, just wildlife conservation in general. So, you know, all of us that have some kind of a connection had had some experience when most of the time when we were younger where we were, we became hooked. Doesn't matter if we're hunters or anglers or we're bird watchers.
▶ 0:55:45We found we had an experience where we were hooked, and a lot of those, um, opportunities like you've described with some of these urban wildlife refuges and many other, um, state led, federal led, federal owned, federal managed lands provide some of those opportunities for youth. So I think if we're going to ensure that we have people in the future that care like americans do today for our wildlife resources, those types of outdoor opportunities and experiences are really important. >> well, thank you, director.
▶ 0:56:12I hope to be able to work with you, um, to these expand programs. As many americans as possible have the opportunity to participate in them, including my constituents in urban areas, uh, you know, that don't always have access to outdoor programs. Um, I'd like to yield my time to ranking member huffman. >> I thank the gentlelady and director nesbitt.
▶ 0:56:36I just wanted to follow up on this top to bottom review for consistency with trump administration priorities. Um, you said that you didn't have any specific refuge in mind as being out of step, but that it was suggested to you that this needed to happen. Who suggested it, and what did they say?
▶ 0:56:57>> well, ranking member huffman, you know, I've I've had a lot of conversations over a 30 plus year career in wildlife management and certainly wildlife refuges, um, have been a topic of many of those conversations. The specific folks that I've talked to about, um, how we make policy decisions for our country, whether it was at the state level or the national level, um, really is. >> all right. But I'm not talking about every conversation about a refuge I've ever had. This is a very specific thing that you set in motion.
▶ 0:57:27This is this is very purposeful. Yeah. And unusual. It's never happened to my knowledge. Whose idea was this? Where did this come from? >> yeah. There's no specific group or individual that's had this idea. This is a culmination of me gathering information over many years. >> so this. >> is your making a decision? This is my idea. >> well, then what did you have in mind that made you think this was necessary?
▶ 0:57:50Because when we talk about looking top to bottom at this whole system for consistency with all of these executive, over 100 executive orders that the president has put out on everything from standards for federal architecture to the dreaded catch all of wokeness. I mean, there's so much in all of that. And to do this political scrub of every refuge to make sure everything lines up with all of that, you must have had something in mind.
▶ 0:58:19>> well, you know, those words with the political scrub, um, are certainly your words and not my intent. And and no, I don't have any preconceived notions of any specific refuge or fish hatchery. Um, but I think as a general business practice, if you're going to evaluate or do an audit and evaluate, um, a specific unit or program, you need to look at what it was established for and make sure they're still doing the same thing.
▶ 0:58:46>> yeah, but you can't give me any examples of something that concerns you as maybe being out of step. >> no. >> all right. Thanks I yield back. >> the chair now recognizes Mr. krank for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Appreciate it. Director nesbitt, thanks for being here today. I appreciate your willingness to hear about the concerns I have with colorado's wolf reintroduction program.
▶ 0:59:13This program wasn't done through best science. Uh, this was focused onto rural, forced onto rural coloradans through ballot box biology, um, from urban communities like boulder and denver that will likely never have an encounter with a wolf in their backyard, but they're forcing it on. To rural coloradans. This had serious implications for my district. As reintroduced wolves migrate across colorado.
▶ 0:59:40And frankly, I'm not happy with the way that colorado parks and wildlife has conducted the reintroduction program. Um, as we've talked about recently, there have been some issues with colorado's management with wolves. What's the service done to address these challenges? >> yes. So thank you. Congressman crank and I have heard from many of your constituents.
▶ 1:00:04And and I agree that there is certainly concern in colorado about the way in which the the current program is, is being managed. We did, um, evaluate and look at, um, the original agreements that were put in place, as well as the ten year rule that was issued to colorado.
▶ 1:00:20And we determined that, um, you know, their their original ten permit allowed them to go only to specific states in the northern rocky mountain, um, the northern rocky mountain, um, population of wolves.
▶ 1:00:34And when we were made aware that they were potentially going to go to places outside of those states, I notified colorado that that that wouldn't be appropriate and in accordance with the permit that they have now, I've also asked them, in response to some of the other recent actions, to provide us several pieces of information here in the near future that so that we can fully understand their program and make sure that they're in compliance with the
▶ 1:01:04Memorandum of understanding and agreement that we have with them. >> yeah. And they from the timing of that, I want to be clear, too. Uh, they did it right before this new administration came in, just in early january, in my view. They they hurried it, tried to sneak it in from canada, which was not included as an area that they could introduce wolves from. Is that correct? >> yes, congressman. That's correct. >> um, so some some lunatics who support colorado's reintroduction effort have argued that the ten day rule and the memorandum of agreement apply only to post management.
▶ 1:01:35Do you agree with that interpretation, yes or no. >> congressman craig? No. >> um, okay. Does fish and wildlife consider the authorities granted to colorado parks and wildlife under the ten rule and the moa to apply to the full scope of the reintroduction program, including wolf translocation and source populations? >> congressman crank, certainly that that is outlined very clearly in those documents.
▶ 1:01:57And there are agreements, um, within the document that talks about how both sides will communicate on wolf management issues. >> and so fish and wildlife has full authority, in your view, and I would argue, a responsibility to conduct oversight for colorado parks and wildlife translocation activities. >> congressman crank, certainly. And they're a listed species under the endangered species act.
▶ 1:02:25And they're operating using a provision of the endangered species act, section ten, under a ten permit. >> um, as of june 2025, five of the 15 wolves imported from british columbia have died, a 67% survival rate, according to the state plan. A survival rate below 70% within six months should trigger a translocation protocol review.
▶ 1:02:48Additionally, a sixth wolf from canada died in november of last year and four wolves from the ten released from oregon have died, putting the overall survival rate at 60%. As part of the fish and wildlife continued oversight over colorado's management of the reintroduction program. I understand you have requested documents from cpw. I'd like to request that your staff look into the survival rate outlined in colorado's management plan.
▶ 1:03:16And if colorado parks and wildlife is following the protocol, a review requirements, would you do that? >> yes, sir. We we will do that. >> great. I appreciate I appreciate you I appreciate your oversight over this. Um, most of the population, quite frankly, of colorado, if they had it to do over again, probably wouldn't do ballot box biology, quite honestly. And I know that the people who have to deal with those wolves in rural areas around colorado never supported it and don't to this day. Thank you.
▶ 1:03:45And I yield back. >> I thank the gentleman from colorado and now recognize the ranking member, miss hoyle. >> thank you so much. Um, director, uh, I want to thank you for being here today. I want to focus my questions on how we can work together to maintain public access for hunters and anglers, ensuring adequate resources for your agency, and protecting programs that sportsmen and women depending on.
▶ 1:04:13You know, there was a conversation about wasting disease. And although we don't have enough information, and I agree, we need to do, um, more research, certainly, uh, overpopulation of our of our deer population exacerbates the problem. And hunters are really important part of that solution.
▶ 1:04:33Um, so getting young people outdoors is critical to the future of conservation and especially helping young people connect where their food comes from. It doesn't just show up in the grocery store. So how does fish and wildlife service, uh, leverage its programs to introduce young people to hunting, fishing and other wildlife dependent recreation on refuges? >> well, thank you, ranking member hoyle, for that question.
▶ 1:05:01It's certainly an issue that's always been near and dear to my heart. It was one of my main initiatives when I was in my my past role, inspire kids for life. And, um, I continue to believe that those are some of the most important things we can do. If you want to think about what's important for wildlife 30 years down the road, you know, specifically within fish and wildlife service, there's a couple of things that we do, and we have many of our, um, on many of our wildlife refuges.
▶ 1:05:24We have youth hunts that have special provisions so that youth have, um, better opportunities during certain dates to be able to, to have those permits or have those opportunities to hunt. Um, I think that, you know, our work, we have, as I mentioned before, a real responsibility, but also a real benefit in working directly with our state wildlife, um, counterparts and with the associations that represent all those states.
▶ 1:05:52The association of fish and wildlife agencies is one great example. Um, we have an opportunity to work with those folks to to look at what is the new information and the new data say about the younger demographic, and how do we provide opportunities that will really resonate with those younger folks because it changes. It changes from when I was a kid. It I look at my kids now, I look at my grandkids and the way that the way that they those things that resonate with them to get them interested in something new changes all the time.
▶ 1:06:21And there's good information on that and data. And so I think a combination of those two things are are certainly places where the fish and wildlife service has some opportunity. >> thank you. Um, the land and water conservation fund is funded thousands of projects that open access to hunting and fishing. Can you provide an example of where the acquisitions or easements expanded opportunities for sportsmen and women to access, um, refuge lands? >> yeah, certainly.
▶ 1:06:51So, um, ranking member hoyle, as, as you mentioned there, that that program has funded dozens and dozens of projects, hundreds of projects across our country. Many of them have been focused on habitat restoration or on habitat conservation. And so I just want to be very clear that not every single lwcf project is necessarily provides access, because many of those are conservation easements on private land.
▶ 1:07:18And so the private landowners, landowners don't always relinquish those, um, those rights, those hunting rights, but in many cases, wildlife refuges have been expanded, added on to some funds, have been used to acquire wildlife refuges. And every time that we acquire or expand one of those refuges where hunting is a compatible use, um, we're able to expand hunting and fishing. And so lwcf has been a great, great program.
▶ 1:07:45>> all right then, quickly, how does fish and wildlife service prioritize deferred maintenance projects on refuges? And what role does public access play in those decisions in the prioritization? >> so ranking member hoyle, great question. And I will tell you that, you know, the that's part of what this review is going to look at is are we doing that the right way? Are we looking for gaps and prioritizing those in the right way?
▶ 1:08:11I have um, I think we always have an ability when you're talking about a large system to do better. It's not a criticism of past efforts. It's a way to look at, you know, what we have today, where we're at today and and how are we going to prioritize, um, those needs, because there is a lot of variables that should play into those priorities. The number of use days, the size of the refuge, the wildlife that's there, the habitat that's available.
▶ 1:08:37And so, um, we have prioritized deferred maintenance projects. We have a list. But part of this review will also look at that and making sure that we're doing that the right way. >> all right. Thank you. And I yield back. >> thank the ranking member I will recognize myself for five minutes. Director nesbitt, thanks again. Thanks for all of your efforts.
▶ 1:08:56And as a lifelong conservationist and avid outdoorsman, I know how incredibly important it is for us to do everything we can to conserve this nation's national treasures in our refuge lands. I know how important it is to communities like mine, where I grew up, where hunting and fishing and recreating, uh, on those lands is part of the community. It's part of who we are. It's the connection that makes this nation the greatest nation the world has ever known.
▶ 1:09:24Because of those resources and the things that we have been given great responsibility to manage. And I thank you for your leadership and the things that you've done. I want to highlight the the sport, fish restoration, recreational boating safety and wildlife restoration act that actually is going to reauthorize the sport fish restoration and boating trust fund through 2030.
▶ 1:09:47Those funds are important for, as we've talked about earlier, efforts at undergo, managing those resources not just on our public lands, but across the united states. Uh, that trust fund since 1950 has provided about $40 billion for those activities. And very specifically, it provides those resources to both federal, state and local entities to make sure we are working cooperatively to monitor, to to manage those incredible resources.
▶ 1:10:17I wanted to get your view on how increased cooperation and efforts, like the reauthorization of the sport fish restoration and boating safety act, uh, are going to affect the things that that you do, how our wildlife refuge system operates, and how is it going to increase access for hunters and fishermen that everybody in this committee has talked about is incredibly important. So I wanted to get your, uh, your look at that. And then you talked a little bit about the challenges of the future.
▶ 1:10:45But what do you see as challenges of the future? And what do we need to do as a congress to address those? >> so thank you for the for the question there, congressman. So first of all, I'll tell you that those those funds, the sport fish restoration fund is is absolutely critical for our state partners there. You know, as I stated earlier, there are a lot of times on the front lines of of these types of issues. I talked about wildlife management. Then we were talking about more boating access and fishing access now.
▶ 1:11:13But again, they're they're close to the folks who are using those resources and using those facilities and have, um, they really rely on these funds to be able to do great work for the american people. You can't have voting access if you don't have boat docks. And, um, you know, there's there's a tremendous amount of work that's been done. You you mentioned, you know, $40 million worth of work that's been done to provide access. And so I think it's very important. I think the future will continue to require resources.
▶ 1:11:43And certainly that's a consideration that congress can always make is how to allocate resources, appropriate resources, so that those kind of activities can continue. >> what do you see? >> what do you see as the as the future challenges as our refuge lands obviously continue to get more and more pressure, but also what do we do to be able to enhance access through the efforts of things like the migratory bird conservation commission that take those duck stamp dollars and put them
▶ 1:12:14Towards acquisition of more refuge lands, and what we do to work locally with landowners, and may be willing to put their land into easements that are now accessible through the refuge system for the public. >> yeah, I think you highlight some really great two of the the best ways that we can increase access. And working with private landowners is absolutely a critical part of this equation. They're not making any more land. And you know what?
▶ 1:12:38We we would not have the abundance or the diversity of wildlife we have in this country without landowners who are willing to provide habitat for those wildlife. And those landowners come in a lot of different shapes, sizes and forms and have a whole lot of different uses for their lands. But they're absolutely critical in this discussion about access. Um, I think, you know, additionally, the demand in certain places has definitely increased not only for hunting and fishing, but for all uses on these wildlife refuges.
▶ 1:13:08And so, again, looking for ways that we can expand those refuges, either through easements or work with private landowners, is a really important, um, key to the future. Very good. >> thank you, director nesvik. I'll now go to our chairman, Mr. westerman. >> thank you again, director, for being here today. And when we talk about access, we often think of of being able to go on to a piece of property to cross a line or.
▶ 1:13:36But when I think of access, I think about the quality of access and the experience that you have. Uh, once you get there, it's one thing to be able to, to go hunting. It's another thing to be able to go hunting where there's actually, uh, plentiful game to hunt. It's a whole different experience.
▶ 1:13:54I know that, um, I mentioned earlier about hollowborn refuge in my district, and over christmas, unsolicited, I got a text message from a constituent in the area that was singing the praises of the refuge. And 4 or 5 years ago, they were complaining about the refuge, and they he actually sent me a map that the refuge put together, that they planned a youth deer hunt.
▶ 1:14:21And he was talking about how well it was done and how great a time the kids had that had a chance to go hunting, some of them for the first time, uh, which to me that's quality access to, uh, to a refuge when you can do things like that. Uh, you you recently put out an order, um, to for the refuge system to examine and refocus on the primary purpose of refuges.
▶ 1:14:48Can you explain why it's important for the system to to refocus on the primary purpose? And what would you say that primary purpose is? >> well, thank you, chairman, for that for that question. So the the primary purpose is for most of the refuges were outlined when the refuges were acquired and they were never it wasn't a system that came about, um, by one sweeping action of congress. It kind of evolved over time.
▶ 1:15:14Teddy roosevelt established the first 1 in 19, I think it was 1905, and then new refuges came on board and there really wasn't any, um, any act or any congressional action that really covered the system until the 60s. And then again, the reauthorization or the the improvement act in the 90s. And so there's a lot of sources of what that original purpose for refuges was. In most cases, those purposes were to provide habitat. And a lot of times it was for waterfowl.
▶ 1:15:45Um, a lot of refuges were established in the name of waterfowl, but to provide habitat quality, habitat, um, to provide hunting and fishing access, to provide access to the public, um, to enjoy wildlife and then in certain cases, to provide habitat for sensitive species or those that might be imperiled or threatened. >> so some of the best land management that I've seen has been on some of the refuges in my district.
▶ 1:16:11Filson's national wildlife refuge has a they do a tremendous job with, um, pine savanna habitat that creates some of the best wildlife habitat, whether it's turkeys or deer, quail. Um, but there's a lot more public land in my district on the national forest than there is in the refuge system. There's a lot more private land where I live than there is public land.
▶ 1:16:37How can we partner better with other public entities and private entities to make sure we have a landscape full of good habitat that's accessible? >> well, I think that's a that's a great question.
▶ 1:16:50And I think, um, you know, that's one of the opportunities I have now in this position is to work with my colleagues that that oversee other, um, like bureau of land management, united states forest service, bureau of reclamation, many of the other large um, public land assets that this country has, and to work with them on ways that that we can work together. There are many cases now where that's already occurring, where we do have refuges that border other federal lands. Um, so there's opportunity there.
▶ 1:17:19We also have many places where we partner with state, um, wildlife management areas that are adjacent to the refuges, I think actually have, um, one of those cases either in your state or the state just to your east, where the state works closely with managing their property. While the fish and wildlife service manages their property jointly.
▶ 1:17:39And I think those kind of opportunities really bring efficiency, synergy and doing a better job for the american people to manage those those resources and not just quantity, but quality, like you point out. >> and secretary burgum's secretarial order this morning, um, he had a really catchy phrase in there. He wants to, um, change our federal lands from closed and less open to open unless closed.
▶ 1:18:07I really like the way that sounds, but what's the problem with operating on secretarial orders? What happens? Could could that be changed? >> yes, Mr. chairman, certainly a new administration, new secretary of interior, could certainly issue new orders that that would that would make changes. >> so we need consistency across time if we want to manage habitat the best way.
▶ 1:18:34Because I say that as a statement, not really as a question because, uh, it takes time to get these ecosystems in the best shape and to create these opportunities. I go back. >> chairman yields back. Chair recognizes congresswoman malloy for five minutes. >> thank you. Um, I had two questions I wanted to ask you, Mr. nesvik. And they've both been asked, and you did a pretty thorough job of answering both of them. So we might be really quick here.
▶ 1:19:03Um, but I want to go back to your experience as a state director. And is there anything you haven't gotten to cover already about the opportunities of the federal government working with states and with local governments, partnering on making sure that we have access for wildlife, hunting, fishing, recreation? >> well, thank you, congressman. Now you're you're wanting me to think back on what I already said and try to remember what I missed. Um, you know, nothing comes to mind.
▶ 1:19:32I think that at the end of the day, speaking very broadly, um, if if I can do anything in this role to better facilitate work in durable work long after I'm gone, regardless of of which presidential administration is in place ten years from now, if I can do work that that creates a good, solid ability for the states and the federal government to work together on
▶ 1:20:03These issues that are so important to the american people. Um, I think that's where that's where I can make money. That's where I can do good for the american people. >> thank you. You've been in the hot seat for a long time. I'll let you be down about 3.5 minutes early. And, madam chairwoman, I yield back. >> the chair now recognizes Mr. bentz for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. Thank you, director, for being here today.
▶ 1:20:30So we have a wolf problem in the united states. And the problem breaks into two pieces. The first is the sheer number of wolves. I think roughly, we have about 90,000 wolves in north america. If we count alaska and canada and america and the united states, 90,000 wolves. We have 500 in oregon, 2600 in idaho. And then, of course, the thousands in alaska.
▶ 1:20:59Here's the here's the problem. The the the wolf's not going to go away. That's a given. The question is, how do we recognize and reimburse those who are bearing the cost, which of course are the ranchers and farmers and others. But those costs are are huge. About 126 million is what it's been estimated in three different studies. Uh, that is costing ranchers across the united states each year.
▶ 1:21:25Um, your agency has been extremely helpful, uh, by the way, in the areas where the wolf remains listed. And I know that your agency and in fact, the last four administrations have suggested that the wolf be delisted. So we all agree the courts apparently don't. But the wolf needs to be delisted.
▶ 1:21:46But in the meantime, we constantly reach out to your agency to come in and try to haze wolves after they kill cattle and calves, as has been happening probably as recently as today. That's. And I get call after call after call after call of people incredibly frustrated and I refer them to you. Can you tell me how that's working in your agency? >> yeah. So thank you for the question, congressman.
▶ 1:22:09And there's not um, I don't believe there's a day since I've been in this job since august 18th, when I haven't had at least one discussion during the day about gray wolves or, or mexican gray wolves.
▶ 1:22:22And so, um, I do recognize this is a significant issue, um, across not only the places that oftentimes are, are recognized, um, for having wolves, but really it's now in places where five, ten years ago we didn't have issues with with gray wolves there. They've, um, they've moved into a lot of new places. And so at the end of the day, you're right.
▶ 1:22:46I think that turning management of a recovered species and getting to getting across the finish line there is the long term solution. I think the short term solution is continuing to work locally with not only our federal partners like wildlife services, but also with the states to enable them and provide flexibility even under even with a listed species to help deal with producers and handle their
▶ 1:23:16Problems, not not handle their problems. They all want to handle their own, but to help them and assist them to do things they can't otherwise do. >> and that's in an almost impossible situation. Let me shift. We are seeing an absolutely noticeable and incredibly frightening decline in mule deer populations across my district. My district is one of the largest that's not a state in the united states, about 70,000mi, almost bigger than the state of washington.
▶ 1:23:44And we have seen this huge and frightening decline in mule deer populations. I would ask you to please, please focus on that. And then I want to turn my attention to the malheur national wildlife refuge, which was uh, in which is in my district is about 200,000 acres. One of the people who has some of that land leased called me yesterday. He had no idea you would be here today. So it's fortuitous. The the question he was asking is how come. Because we haven't we are having an abnormally warm winter.
▶ 1:24:13The hay that's been or the grass that's been raked, bunched across the many, many acres of the refuge is, is remaining unconsumed by the cattle that are allowed to graze there. Uh, and thus is creating, uh, an additional fire hazard. And so what should happen is there should be an extension of time to leave the cattle there so that they begin. The reason they're not eating it now is the grass is still green and for real. And that's highly unusual.
▶ 1:24:40But but there needs to be, uh, the people running the refuge need to adapt to this situation. We also we have an incredible invasion of of, uh, species weeds across the blm and of course, the refuge.
▶ 1:24:56And I would strongly recommend that there be a more aggressive grazing, uh, approach used to help drive back the this what is truly a huge danger, not only not just to the purpose of the refuge, because those weeds are not amenable to to birds. And I just I want to this is an extremely important to me. I grew up not far from this. My granddad was involved in establishing a portion of the refuge.
▶ 1:25:23So I just would ask you to to reach out, perhaps to the leaders of that and refuge and talk to them with that. Madam chair, I yield back. >> well, thank you. Uh, I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony, Mr. nesvik and the members for their questions. The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witness, and we will ask you to respond to those in writing while the clerk is resetting the table, I will introduce our second panel of witnesses. And Mr.
▶ 1:25:51Nesvik, you are free to go or stay and listen if you would like to. >> yeah. Thank you, madam chair. >> Mr. jason tharp, the chief executive officer of delta waterfowl from bismarck, north dakota. Mr. chris butler, the president of the butler, maine, butler marine from beaufort, south carolina. Mr. ryan kyle callahan, the president and chief executive officer of backcountry hunters and anglers from missoula, montana. Mr.
▶ 1:26:22Paul johansen, the chief of the wildlife resources section of the west virginia division of natural resources from charleston, west virginia. And again, let me remind the witnesses that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes. But your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone. We use timing lights when you begin. The light will turn green.
▶ 1:26:46When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of the five minutes, the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I will also allow all four of the witnesses to testify before member questioning. I now recognize Mr. tharp for five minutes. >> thank you. Chair hageman and ranking member hoyle. Chairman, westerman and ranking member huffman and all the members of the subcommittee.
▶ 1:27:14Uh, really appreciate this opportunity to provide testimony. Today, I come before you to speak on a topic that is of great personal interest to me and all duck hunters across the united states, and that is of the national wildlife refuge system. We sincerely appreciate the subcommittee's interest. Before I begin, I'd like to recognize that the committee lost one of its long standing and committed members. With the passing of congressman doug lamalfa.
▶ 1:27:39We extend our sympathies to you as his colleagues and to his staff, his family and his friends. The congressman was a champion on many conservation causes and was keenly interested and invested in issues important to ducks and duck hunters. We are saddened by his sudden passing and we will miss his voice for conservation and hunters.
▶ 1:28:00Today I'm pleased to be here to address the topic of our national wildlife refuges, as it is a topic we commonly hear about from our members, our volunteers and duck hunters across all four flyways. I'd like to start by reminding the members that the national wildlife refuge system exists in a very real way, because of the leadership of duck hunters, more than 300 of the 573 refuges of the system were purchased, at least partially,
▶ 1:28:31With proceeds from federal duck stamp sales. As a result, I and the duck hunters I represent believe that the refuge system truly is the duck hunters most important legacy asset. The challenge is that our asset is under stress. Managing habitat for ducks is an incredibly intensive task. It requires trained wetland managers to design management plans.
▶ 1:28:53It takes significant infrastructure pumps, levees, dikes and water control structures to deliver and remove water at the appropriate times. And it takes human resources to disk to run tractors, pumps and structures. It is quite an undertaking.
▶ 1:29:10Today we need our refuges to provide more habitat value against the backdrop of habitat changes in key wintering duck areas, loss of coastal marsh, changes in agricultural practices and water scarcity means duck and duck hunters need more from our refuges as core areas of high quality habitat than ever before. The eve of our 250th anniversary as a nation provides an opportune moment to recommit to one of our greatest ideas and express a bold new vision.
▶ 1:29:39To prioritize refuge investment, look for new tools to deliver management and failing, address failing infrastructure, and redouble our commitment to enhance public use. The U.S. fish and wildlife service current estimate of deferred maintenance is $2.6 billion.
▶ 1:29:59Work by delta waterfowl and ducks unlimited staff in the spring of 2020 identified over 250 million in critical wetland infrastructure needs on priority waterfowl refuges alone. We believe the time now is to act on this critical need. Senator daines and senator king this spring introduced the america the beautiful act to reauthorize the legacy restoration fund. As we've discussed here today, which would invest in service infrastructure needs.
▶ 1:30:26And we are eager to work with chairman westerman and ranking member huffman and members of the committee to develop a house companion to reauthorize the legacy restoration fund and invest in the infrastructure critical to managing waterfowl habitat. Delta waterfowl has also been visiting with staff to explore new authorizations for the service, to engage the private sector habitat managers to aid in the animal and annual management needs on refuges.
▶ 1:30:54There is a wealth of expertise within state agencies, nonprofit organizations and even private duck club managers that can assist with high quality or high value habitat management tasks, which would augment the service's staff capacity. And we're eager to work with this committee to explore this opportunity.
▶ 1:31:13Lastly, the us service annual hunt and fish rule has been a historic means to creating new hunting opportunities, and we want to say we greatly appreciate secretary burgoyne's announcement this morning, uh, this new secretarial order. And we look forward to learning more details about the order and working with the us fish and wildlife service towards implementation. In conclusion, we are grateful that the committee has chosen to highlight the critical nature of the national wildlife refuge system.
▶ 1:31:40Please know you have a ready and willing partner in delta waterfowl to secure a brighter future for refuges and for the ducks and duck hunters who depend on them. Thank you. I look forward to your questions, and we appreciate you inviting delta waterfowl to be here today. >> thank you, Mr. tharp. I now recognize Mr. butler for five minutes. >> thank you, chairwoman. >> hagerman and ranking. >> member hoyle. My name is chris butler.
▶ 1:32:08I'm a father, a husband, an owner and owner of butler marine. I'm on many boards dealing with boating access, including south carolina boating fishing alliance, as well as the center for sport fishing, uh policy, uh, the marine retail um association of the americas. Uh, I represent two dealerships representing 35 people that are employees and team members. I operate eight boat lines and four engine lines.
▶ 1:32:37I fished and hunted all over this country. Most 27 states. On my last count, I may have missed a few and eight different countries. In south carolina, fishing and boating industry brings in over 6.5 billion into the south carolina economy, and represents over 23,000 jobs. I'm in a very special place in south carolina. I'm here because I eat, sleep, and breathe fishing, boating and hunting.
▶ 1:33:06All three of these outdoors activities are part of the part of the culture for the southeast coast. Decisions made in dc don't only affect the ability for access. For me, my family and my friends. It also affects my livelihood. I'd like to start by discussing the red snapper situation that we currently have.
▶ 1:33:30My business is affected immensely, both pro and negatively on decisions made um, within the beltway, let's call it. And currently, with the broad on of the snapper reduction act, where we reduced the amount of fishing that take, we understood and we were there to support it.
▶ 1:33:55Now it's past its prime, and we have a problem now with having too many red snapper off the coast of south carolina, creating problems for my friends and my customers to actually get to the targeted species.
▶ 1:34:10We are asking that you consider the mps that are presented, um, to the, uh, for for you guys to act and ask that you look at those because there are a real way for us to to bring in what the population truly is and bring it to the state level where we can manage it. We're we're been in south carolina particularly.
▶ 1:34:34We've been very aggressive on coming up with policies, uh, and ways to regulate and watch how how that fishery is managed. The second thing that has affected us recently has been the right whale, um, issue. Currently that's been tabled. But we based on what happens politically with the different administration coming in, we don't think that it will be out there forever. It will come back. That alone had an opportunity to decimate, um, my business by 20%.
▶ 1:35:03That 20% number doesn't seem like a lot to you, but it would mean 3 to 4 employees for me. That's for one year. That's not the that isn't 20% one time. That's 20%. Over and over and over every year, roughly $4 million of revenue to my and to just me alone and multiplying that out over many dealers across the east coast, it would be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
▶ 1:35:34We are the original conservationists. Whether you're a fisherman or a hunter, um, or a boater. We provide funds to help with conservation. Allow us a seat at the table, whenever possible, to talk about ways that we can improve what is being done. The right whale is a perfect example. Had we been brought to the table, we would have been able to bring in the new technology.
▶ 1:36:02We are working on that technology now, even though the right whale is, uh, has been uh, the speed limit has been stopped as of today. When I checked, we have gotten $180,000 from the federal government. We have spent three times that amount, and we have not gotten $1 from an environmentalist organization to help come up with a solution.
▶ 1:36:29In conclusion, I would just like to say thank you for allowing me to be here to testify and bring a different point of view as an actual boat owner that is affected every single day by by decisions that are made here. And I look forward to answering any questions. Thank you. >> thank you, Mr. butler. And the chair now recognizes Mr. callahan for five minutes. >> chair.
▶ 1:36:56Hagerman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for your, uh, the opportunity to testify today. I'd like to first offer my condolences to the committee on the passing of representative lamalfa. The congressman cared deeply about hunting and fishing access, and his commitment to sportsmen and women will be remembered. Uh, I'm a lifelong conservationist, hunter, fisherman, guide, and second week on the job. President ceo of backcountry hunters and anglers. Uh, backcountry hunters and anglers.
▶ 1:37:26Our mission is to ensure north america's outdoor heritage of hunting and fishing and the wild through advocacy, education and boots on the ground action. Our membership spans all 50 states, two canadian provinces and one territory. What unites our politically diverse members, regardless of geography or background, is a shared understanding that hunting and fishing on public lands provide an invaluable sense of freedom, challenge, solace, a place to grow mentally and physically.
▶ 1:37:58More than 60 years ago, congress sitting in the same seats you are today codified into law, the national wildlife refuge system. In doing so, they carried forward theodore roosevelt's conservation legacy and created the world's most enviable and only legally unified system dedicated to wildlife conservation. Your predecessors knew a lot less than we do today about how our wild lands and waters operate.
▶ 1:38:22They understood that maintaining this system wouldn't be easy, yet they recognized the inherent value in stewarding our nation's greatest resources, not just for the future, but in perpetuity. Continuing this legacy means we have a shared duty to expand access for hunters and anglers in our great outdoors by maintaining our public lands across the country, public lands face a deferred maintenance backlog exceeding $32.5 billion, including more than $2.6
▶ 1:38:53Billion within the national wildlife refuge system alone. The bipartisan great american outdoors act was a landmark achievement that began addressing this challenge by permanently funding the land and water conservation fund and establishing the legacy restoration fund. The importance of these investments is evident on the ground and accessible to the end users every day.
▶ 1:39:13Americans in west virginia, a land and water conservation fund acquisition, recently added 963 acres to the preserved portion of the new river gorge national park and preserve near sandstone. Through a willing seller transfer. This project permanently protected scenic and historic lands while significantly expanding public hunting and outdoor recreation opportunities.
▶ 1:39:36Similarly, in idaho, a land and water conservation fund acquisition in the boise foothills connected fragmented public lands north of boise, expanded access to a game management unit, and protected critical winter range for elk, mule deer, sage grouse, and black bear near a rapidly growing community. Together, these projects demonstrate how growing our public lands expands. Hunting and fishing access.
▶ 1:40:00Lwcf makes federally managed lands and public lands tangible, a real thing for people in both urban and rural communities. This work remains unfinished. The legacy restoration fund, which prevents our public lands and water infrastructure and the access they provide from falling into further disrepair, is set to expire. It must be reauthorized.
▶ 1:40:23Access for hunters and anglers is the difference between being able to launch a boat on a river, or not, to reliably and safely drive half a million miles of road on federally managed lands, or not to safely get young families into the outdoors, or not to spend money with outdoor retailers or in rural communities and out of the way places or not. Infrastructure, however, is only part of the equation. Hunting and fishing access also depends on supporting the staffing of our public land management agencies.
▶ 1:40:54Our public lands cannot function without refuge managers, wildlife biologists, foresters, field staff and other dedicated public servants. These professionals are on the ground maintaining habitat, managing wildlife populations, keeping access points open and working with local communities and sportsmen for the benefit of us all. Hunters and anglers are not asking for special treatment, simply the recognition of our greatest american freedoms.
▶ 1:41:18Our shared public lands protect our lands from sale or transfer so that we may continue doing what we have always done. Conserve and steward, respect fish and wildlife through responsible take and habitat creation. By doing so, we can pass our outdoor traditions of respect and responsible use onto the next generation so that they will carry this legacy onto the next.
▶ 1:41:40I thank the committee for your work that you've done and are doing advancing hunting and fishing access, and I truly look forward to working alongside each of you as we continue. Uh, vha is at your service. Uh, and we look forward to a long relationship. >> thank you. Mr. callahan. And I now recognize Mr. johansen for five minutes. >> good afternoon, chairwoman hagerman. Ranking member hoyle and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
▶ 1:42:09It is truly an honor to be with you this afternoon and have an opportunity to provide this testimony. My name is paul johansen. I'm chief of the wildlife resources section for the west virginia division of natural resources.
▶ 1:42:23I also have the honor of currently serving as president of the association of fish and wildlife agencies, also called apha, the voice of state fish and wildlife agencies who exercise primary statutory authority for managing fish and wildlife within their borders, including federal on federal lands and waters, hunters, anglers, and outdoor recreationalists are fundamental to the american, uh,
▶ 1:42:55To the, uh, excuse me, to the, uh, north american system of conservation funding, uh, and which uses a user pay, uh, public benefits type model that, um, enables state fish and wildlife agencies, uh, to engage in their responsibilities as stewards of, um, healthy habitats and abundant wildlife populations.
▶ 1:43:27Excuse me. Investing in conservation creates thousands of well-paid jobs and bolsters community resilience while protecting, uh, the natural infrastructure. Last year, states received over $1 billion in federal pittman-robertson in dingell johnson funds.
▶ 1:43:51And I'm pleased to say that every dollar of of which, um, was directed towards fish and wildlife, uh management, ensuring healthy habitats, protecting uh or excuse me, um, improving education, outreach and hunter safety programs and creating additional opportunities for public access.
▶ 1:44:20Providing the public with access to land and water is a critical component of, uh, our conservation efforts. And state fish and wildlife agencies are committed to engaging and exploring those opportunities to enhance, uh, access to those resources.
▶ 1:44:40My written testimony provides several success stories from the states of wyoming, oregon, and west virginia that highlight some of these, uh, particularly successful access programs. These examples underscore a very key point, uh, when we invest in conservation and maintain access, wildlife populations thrive.
▶ 1:45:06And participation in increases such access stories, uh, show how, uh, thoughtful investments in access pay dividends to both people and wildlife. Effective conservation.
▶ 1:45:28Uh, also requires, um close collaboration with federal, state and local partners, including, uh, private landowners. We urge, uh, our federal partners to work together with the states to maximize these access opportunities.
▶ 1:45:52I'd also like to take this opportunity today to publicly acknowledge and thank director knezevic and his team, uh, for, uh, truly embracing, uh, this collaborative spirit.
▶ 1:46:09Soon, upon taking, uh, office, director knezevic reached out to the association of fish and wildlife agencies and our regional associations, uh, and sought their input on shared conservation priorities. He also issued the director's order, uh, looking at, uh, a comprehensive review of the national wildlife refuge system and the national hatchery system.
▶ 1:46:36And in his order, he specifically requested input, uh, and collaboration with state fish and wildlife agencies. And we deeply appreciate that. I see that my time is running short.
▶ 1:46:49So I'm going to move to, uh, some closing comments and refer to, um, my, my written testimony in terms of some of the key points that I thought, uh, this committee should take a look at and consider, including prioritizing public access, um, uh, for the benefit of conservation, uh, improving, uh, or empowering state agencies to work closely with our federal agencies and supporting
▶ 1:47:19Voluntary, collaborative approaches to emerging issues. Um, I would be happy to, uh, once again, thank you for the opportunity to be here and happy to entertain any questions that you might have. >> thank you. Mr. johansen. Uh, I want to thank each of you for your testimony today. And I will now recognize members for five minutes each for questioning. I'm going to begin with myself, because I think I'm going to probably have to go to another committee. Uh, mark up here shortly, and I want to make sure I have the opportunity to ask you questions.
▶ 1:47:48I'm going to ask the entire panel. Would all of you agree that the recovery and de-listing of a federally listed endangered species is something to celebrate? >> absolutely. >> Mr. butler? >> uh, absolutely. >> Mr. callahan. >> yes, ma'am. We want to see the endangered species act work as written. We love to see the recovery of a species. >> and Mr. johansen? >> uh, yes. >> yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. >> absolutely.
▶ 1:48:15Tensions often run high, and I've handled several lawsuits involved with the delisting of species that had fully recovered and made sure that the, uh, management could be turned over to the states, as you indicate, Mr. callahan, as as foreseen and as intended by the endangered species act, the process to delist is often clouded with legal challenges and trepidation.
▶ 1:48:39Successful recovery of a species should not be controversial, however, as it is a hallmark of successful conservation under the endangered species act. So, Mr. johansen, I'd like to ask you a question. Why is delisting a recovered species an important part of science based conservation? >> again, um. >> the listing, the delisting of species should absolutely be considered a success.
▶ 1:49:04And, um, it is, uh, it is essential that when an animal is delisted, uh, and achieves that success that state fish and wildlife agencies assume management responsibility and have and they have the technical expertise, uh, to engage in appropriate management actions, whether that be research or whether that be surveillance and monitoring or, uh, developing appropriate
▶ 1:49:35Strategies for developing harvest regulations if they're a species of game species, for instance. >> and I know you've done an excellent job for your state. And the wyoming game and fish department has also done an excellent job of managing species. A lot of people don't realize that even when a species is listed as either endangered or threatened, it is the state agency that manages them anyway. There may be restrictions upon take. There are restrictions upon what you can do. But an example is in wyoming, the grizzly bear.
▶ 1:50:02Wyoming has invested over $50 million in recovery of the grizzly bear, and it has been recovered for over two decades. For over two decades, we have exceeded the recovery goals of the grizzly bear. Yet we continue to struggle to be able to, uh, get that that species delisted. You know, what's interesting is the fish and wildlife service hasn't invested hardly any money at all in in grizzly recovery. I can say the same thing for the gray wolf, the gray wolf that was brought into my state. My state did an excellent job of managing that species, and we eventually delisted it.
▶ 1:50:32And they've continued to manage it very well, in fact, done much better than really the fish and wildlife service does because they don't have the hands on expertise. They are not the ones that are in the state actually doing the work. In my home state of wyoming, we are struggling with an abundance of recovered predator species that threaten hunters safety and negatively impact prey species populations, including deer, moose, and elk, as well as livestock including cattle, sheep, horses, mules, etc.
▶ 1:50:58Every one of you have talked about the importance of hunting and fishing, and that's really the theme of the hearing that we're having today. We all appreciate our hunters and our fishermen. We recognize the value of the north american model, as my colleague has already visited, and why it's been one of the most successful models in the entire world in terms of species conservation. We have to make sure that we've got the access to the federal lands to be able to do that, and we all support that as well. But again, Mr.
▶ 1:51:26Johannson, returning to you, while west virginia does not have grizzly bears, I was wondering if you would like to have some. Just kidding. Uh, I was wondering if you would be able to walk us through the delisting process from the state's perspective, once the species is recovered, what does that state management look like?
▶ 1:51:46>> well, once once the species is recovered and authority, uh, reverts back to the state fish and wildlife agency to manage that species, um, detailed plans are put in place to maintain, uh, the species population to make sure that they're not put in jeopardy again, uh, they're closely monitored. There continues to be close collaboration with the fish and wildlife service on those issues as well.
▶ 1:52:09And a monitoring plan put in place at a five year interval to make sure that, you know, we are we're we're in we're on good solid ground with regards to um, to to managing that species. But at the end of the day, recognizing management authority of state fish and wildlife agencies to engage in those activities is absolutely critical. And quite frankly, I think most state fish and wildlife agencies do a fantastic job in assuming that responsibility once that species is delisted. >> I agree with you 100%, Mr.
▶ 1:52:42Butler, very briefly with you. Your testimony talks about the challenges of the current management system for red snapper in the south atlantic and the 1 to 2 day seasons it sets for recreational anglers, artificially limiting access based on bad science. How does the current management system negatively impact anglers and businesses across the south atlantic, as well as the fishery itself?
▶ 1:53:06>> uh, well, uh, starting with the with the economic, um, uh, problem, it's affected just me alone, about $22 million since its inception. Um, and that would continue, um, unless we we switch to the rfp with the rfp. I think what we're looking at then is we can have a turnaround of 15 to 20%, um, in revenue. That would some people would say that's a bonus. Well, in reality, you're I'm getting back what I used to have.
▶ 1:53:32Um, it would also be a multiplier effect. Um, when you figure in tackle manufacturers, which we have two of the largest tax tackle manufacturers in south carolina, as well as six of our boat builders, represent, um, uh, ten, the top ten, six of the top ten for the world of fiberglass saltwater boats.
▶ 1:53:51So once again, that would increase their that's a multiplier effect with regards to jobs that also what we've lost is we've lost that weekend person from the up from our upstate in greenville that would come down and fish all weekend. Well why do they come down and spend the money when they can't keep anything and they can't even get to the species that they want to because we have so many red snapper. >> so, Mr. butler, uh, this is a priority for the committee. And so we appreciate the testimony that you have provided in this regard.
▶ 1:54:19The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from new mexico for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. And I do want to just take a moment of personal privilege at the beginning here, um, to also offer my prayers and my condolences for the family and community and everyone who is grieving the loss of representative lamalfa. I think all of us have heavy hearts for Mr.
▶ 1:54:46Lamalfa, who was such an incredible leader on so many different natural resources issues and cared so deeply about this committee and was just a kind and good man. And so we miss him very, very much. I think all of us sad to see his chair empty today. So, um, I'm grateful for the opportunity to have a bipartisan hearing on sportsmen's issues.
▶ 1:55:13Of course, I think everyone who serves on this committee and comes before this committee cares deeply about our public lands and waters, and cares deeply about connecting with the resources that make this country special. And for new mexicans, our connection to public lands and waters are also connected to our heritage. They provide recreation. They encourage stewardship.
▶ 1:55:37They protect the landscape and define new mexico's cultures or foods, our ways of life and who we are as people. We know that when access to public lands and waters is restricted, communities suffer real and lasting harms that extend far beyond just temporary inconveniences.
▶ 1:55:57In fact, during the government shutdown, the pueblo of jemez was denied access to one of our national park units via caldera, preventing one of our communities from carrying out its many generations tradition of ceremonial practices. When access was needed most, it was not allowed. This is unacceptable.
▶ 1:56:17We have also seen troubling instances where recreational tours have been allowed on public lands that contain sacred sites to our tribes, including to san felipe pueblo and other pueblos in the basin. Sharing both, uh, showing both a disregard for cultural and spiritual significance as well as tribal sovereignty.
▶ 1:56:38During the same shutdown, we also saw, as the department of interior notified our tribes and pueblos that they were considering revoking protections for some of the most sacred cultural sites in new mexico, in the greater chaco canyon area. So while we share the commitment to protecting access to public lands and spaces, we also recognize that access to these lands for cultural and spiritual practices is also important.
▶ 1:57:08So as you can see, access is not just about recreation. It's about honoring history, culture, and generations of use. And I'm also grateful to the leadership of my colleague and dear friend from new mexico, congresswoman leger fernandez, and to senator ben ray lujan, who have been helping to lead the way in ensuring that our national uh, lands are made available for our land grants, for public use, for the lands that they have stewarded for generations.
▶ 1:57:38Our communities, especially in our land grant communities, rely on public lands for hunting, fishing, gathering, and other traditional uses that have sustained their way of life for centuries and generations. So, um, I do want to take just a few moments to ask our witnesses. Thank you so much for joining us and traveling across the country.
▶ 1:58:00Of course, the land and water conservation fund is one of the key tools that we have passed on a bipartisan basis, and which we are hoping to extend to make resources available to our communities, to keep public lands and waters available. And so, beginning with you, Mr.
▶ 1:58:18Callahan, um, I wonder if you could share with us what specific, uh, feedback and policy ideas do you have for us that we should be thinking about as we're thinking about the land and water conservation fund and its future? >> thank you very much. Uh, representative stansbury, um, that's a big question.
▶ 1:58:39I would say, um, to maintain the the long history of nonpartisan meeting in the middle, uh, and where we can, uh, establish, um, opportunities for the american public around where we want to be, which is outside, uh, we have an incredible mosaic of access. And the word access can't be used to represent everything everywhere, all the time.
▶ 1:59:06Um, we have a slogan that says, use the quads god gave you, right hike instead of instead of ride. Um, we need people to do that. But we also need people to ride. And we need people to ride horses. We need to maintain this diversity of access, uh, on our public lands, because that's what spreads out the pressure.
▶ 1:59:27And our, our public lands, specifically in the west, are seeing an incredible amount of demand, and our jobs are to steward these in perpetuity forever and pass down the opportunities as similarly as we can, as we've had them to the next generation. Uh, it's a demanding job, and, uh, I don't have all the answers, but I promise you, I want to be a part of the solutions. >> thank you. And I only have a few seconds left. But, Mr.
▶ 1:59:56Johansen, um, what thoughts do you have for us as we're working on the land and water conservation fund? >> I think, um, thank you for the opportunity to comment. I think what should remain, uh, first in forefront, in the forefront of, of your minds when you deliberate on this is ensuring that, um, those funds are directed towards conservation, making sure that, um, that, that, that, that the focus is on, um, on what the funds were intended for, which is conserving natural resources, providing, uh, access for the
▶ 2:00:28Public to get out and enjoy, enjoy those resources. But at the end of the day, it really is about conserving our natural resources of this country. And it's incredibly important work. And I wish you the absolute best in in the deliberation that you'll be involved in. Thank you. >> thank you, thank you. >> the chair now recognizes Mr. mcdowell for five minutes. >> thank you. And thank you to all of you for being here to to testify before the subcommittee today. Uh, Mr.
▶ 2:00:56Tharp, I want to take a minute to, uh, to ask you some questions, because delta waterfowl is a group that I've volunteered a lot of my time for. Uh, I've been a committeeman and state committee member for many years. I don't get to volunteer near as much of my time as I used to, uh, with this job, but, um, just want to say how appreciative I am of you and all the work that, uh, the folks like chris williams and, uh, and everybody in north carolina does for for ducks, uh, because I, you know, we're it
▶ 2:01:26Not for groups like you. Uh, we would not have, uh, plentiful numbers of different species of waterfowl. Uh, and I am grateful for that, uh, because I enjoy hunting them. And I hope to be able to teach my kids how to do the same thing. So thank you for all the work you guys do. Um, I want to talk a little bit about, uh, something that I know that delta waterfowl has worked on for a long time, and that's, uh, the conservation of prairie wetlands.
▶ 2:01:51Uh, can you talk about what the organization has done and how that's benefited, uh, the duck population throughout the different flyways? >> sure. And thank you, congressman mcdowell. First for the question. And then, um, delta waterfowl has been, um, throughout its very long history, which began in 1911, a prairie based organization. And primarily we've been a scientific organization.
▶ 2:02:17We've trained, uh, nearly 900 master's and phd students over the years in waterfowl science and have been known as the university of ducks for a long time. And so we're a science based organization.
▶ 2:02:30And we began in the prairies because the science began to tell us back as early as the 1940s that most of what drives duck populations, most of what matters in terms of waterfowl, we see on this continent happens in a very short three month period, which we call the spring production period in the prairies, and we commonly refer to it as the ppr, but it's essentially north dakota, south dakota, um, there are large numbers of wetlands there, and
▶ 2:03:00There are wins and losses in relation to that part of the world. For example, uh, we have always applauded the us fish and wildlife service easement program, which began in the 1960s. Over 30% of the wetlands, which are the small ones that usually go dry in june, and they're the most important to our breeding hands, have been conserved in the dakotas as a result of this, this easement program. But there's more work to be done. Um, agricultural changes, um, shifts.
▶ 2:03:28We work very closely with farmers, um, because they're one of our more important partners, because they own the land where our ducks come from. 85% of waterfowl on this continent still come from private property. So they come off farms and ranches.
▶ 2:03:44And so we have to work closely with those landowners to try to create, innovate and, and come up with programs that, um, work with working lands is essentially that's that's sort of our motto is we want farmers and ranchers to be successful, and we believe they can be stewards of water and wildlife in the same way they can. >> duck is hatched, uh, when a duckling is hatched, what is the single greatest threat to their life? >> uh, being eaten? Predators.
▶ 2:04:16Yeah. Uh, we talked a bit today about, uh, alpha predators, uh, which has been an interesting as a science organization has been an interesting program project for us to watch over the last few years. Um, more important to ducks are what we call mesopredators. So your raccoons, your fox, your skunk are the ones we primarily deal with. Um, part of the challenge of having alpha predators in the system or out of the system for as long as we did is our mesopredator populations have been out of control for a long time. We've.
▶ 2:04:46For years and years, we've seen increases of rabies in the skunk distemper. Um, in raccoons, we see, uh, mange outbreaks that nearly wiped out the red fox population in north dakota starting in the 1990s. So, um, these are direct predators of our ducks. And so we, um, we need to address that issue. It this is not a matter of, um, you know, small furry animals versus ducks.
▶ 2:05:13This is a matter of an ecosystem that's sort of out of balance. And so we've done years and years of studies on predator control, how to help balance the ecosystem and support our breeding waterfowl. >> can you very quickly just talk to for some of my colleagues, can you explain how you all use the small, uh, solar transmitted, um, uh, the radio transmitters to track the population movement of waterfowl. >> for sure.
▶ 2:05:43And thank you for the question. And I'd be happy to supply, uh, maps and other visuals if the committee is interested. But radio telemetry telemetry work has become very popular. Technology has improved. We're now able to do everything from, you know, for a long time, put backpacks on waterfowl, but also there's now implants and other things we can do. Um, delta's actually working on a meta analysis of all the telemetry work.
▶ 2:06:06Um, we're looking to partner with folks who've collected this data so we can really start to get a better understanding of how migratory birds, at least the waterfowl, are moving around this continent and how they're using the habitat, which is part of why we're here today. Right, is the refuge system. Um, we've talked about access a lot, but I think it's important to bring up what the refuge system also does is provide inviolate sanctuary for waterfowl. And this is super important.
▶ 2:06:32Uh, recent work has come out about the importance of waterfowl needing a place to get away from humans to rest. And if they don't have those places, um, they redistribute across the landscape. And so, um, the refuge system is an important, very important component of our waterfowl having waterfowl having places to go. So radio telemetry supports our ability to understand those movements. >> great. Thank you. Yield back. >> the chair now recognizes Mr. soto for five minutes.
▶ 2:07:04>> thank you so much, madam chair. And you know, we are working on a restoration project for the northern everglades, including the kissimmee chain of lakes, the kissimmee river, shingle creek and others. Uh, I live on big lake tahoe and I can tell you it is duck season right now because I'm woken up at, you know, six, five, four in the morning by the sound of shotguns from many miles away.
▶ 2:07:28Um, they hunt whistlers in our area, which apparently are fairly tasty, and ducks generally. We also have the osceola turkey. So if you're going to get the turkey trot going on the eastern seaboard, you have to come the central florida. I was hearing some of your conversation, Mr. tharp, how how important is it for wetlands protection and restoration? Uh, to ensure that we have a duck and turkey hunting seasons and and making sure we can continue this thriving recreation that we have in my district.
▶ 2:07:59>> um, it's absolutely key. Congressman. Um, without going very deeply and you know, how wetlands work and and what they specifically do for ducks. But for example, with our focus on the prairies, uh, the small seasonal and temporal wetlands. And a lot of times, these are not what you might imagine as wetlands in your mind. A lot of people have a visual of a ten acre body of water. What we're talking about a lot of times is one acre in the middle of a of field, of an agricultural field, a cornfield. These are the most.
▶ 2:08:31>> that'd be a cypress stand in florida. >> exactly. Um, and so because those wetlands, uh, get wet and go dry on a much faster cycle than larger wetlands, they provide the invertebrates which are the food for the waterfowl. And so they also happen to be the most at risk for drainage because they're small and they're easier to manipulate. So, um, delta recently launched an initiative as part of its, its mandate, uh, on duck distribution.
▶ 2:09:00And it's primarily the reason we're here today. Talking about refuges is ducks also need migratory and wintering habitat. They need food. Uh, we've talked a lot about energy use days. That is a primary component of duck management. And so not only do those wetlands need to be there, but they need to be productive. Um, I think if any of us have spent any time outdoors, we've all seen what we call a dead marsh. And that's where, you know, hybrid cattails have taken over.
▶ 2:09:27Um, the water is turbid because of invasive species. And so we need productive wetlands. And then I would add to that, beyond human access and recreation, beyond, uh, beyond the benefit to wildlife, species, wetlands fundamentally, are water filtration systems for our freshwater system.
▶ 2:09:47And I think it's also important to note that, too, is, um, you know, I was told as a young outdoorsman, I can go, uh, three minutes without air and I can go, uh, three hours without shelter, three days without water and three weeks without food. And so agree. We can all agree water is pretty important to every human being. And so, uh, clean water especially. And I think it's another component for our wetlands. >> thank you, Mr. tharp. Um, Mr. butler, I see you're from south carolina.
▶ 2:10:14You know, uh, red snapper is another really popular, uh, recreational activity in florida. We, um, I know they go all the way up the eastern seaboard. Uh, and we're working on improving the role of states and being able to ensure we have a real red snapper season, uh, in the atlantic.
▶ 2:10:35Uh, I wanted to hear from you how important it is for the legacy restoration fund and in, in fishing and in in hunting and in conservation generally. >> um, thank you for the question. Uh, congressman, uh, that fund is interesting from the standpoint of that, um, it is brought in by the people who actually use it, um, by hunters and fishermen, um, and from outdoor people.
▶ 2:11:02I think the importance of it is that, you know, those funds get redistributed where they need, need to go. But not only that, but they're used smartly, um, with good science, um, and worked with the people that have a stake in what's happening.
▶ 2:11:20I think too many times I know I've been frustrated, along with a lot of my fellow boat dealers, uh, and people within the industry where things are decided without us having a seat at the table with our ideas. Um, and I think, uh, sometimes. We're not. It's a bipartisan thing on what we're talking about here, which is refreshing.
▶ 2:11:45Uh, and sometimes I think that whenever, um, environmentalists don't realize that we want the same thing, they think that one side's bad and they don't bring us to the table to come up with our ideas. I think that's where where things get lost. And I. The best part, uh, or how we could move forward, is by bringing both parties to the table and say, here's a problem we have. What solutions can we come up with? I'm probably one of the few people in this room. I may be the only person that's seen a right whale.
▶ 2:12:14I've seen them in the ocean and I. And it was one of the best days of my life. Uh, luckily I did it with my son, but we spent 30 minutes with it. Um, not very close. You couldn't get close to it, but I saw it because of radar. That's how I spotted it from two miles away. Um, and was able to to see something like that. And it it happened over 20 years ago, and it's never left me. >> well, certainly hunters, fishermen are a key part of conservation as well. I agree, and I appreciate your comments and I yield back.
▶ 2:12:47>> the chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mr. westerman, for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. And thank you to again to the witnesses. Uh, you know, you all come from a broad background, but, Mr. butler, you made a statement that I think is very profound in your testimony. You said public access is not just a quality of life issue. It's the foundation of conservation funding model in this country. When access declines, participation declines. When participation declines, conservation funding declines as well.
▶ 2:13:16When conservation funding declines on the water and on the ground conservation and management decline. It's a it's a vicious cycle that we're in with, um, the need for conservation and the need for participation. And if we let that get out of out of kilter, it causes damage.
▶ 2:13:35I know it was in this committee where we fought in the great american outdoors act to put some of the funding to not only to the park service, but also to fish and wildlife, to the forest service and to the blm. And, uh, while there's a lot of maintenance backlog in the park service, I see the, uh, what we call the it's got a really long name to it on the new gao. I'd like to call it the next 250 fund.
▶ 2:14:04The fund that we use on these projects. And hopefully this funding can go more into conservation than to to hard infrastructure, although that's important in places. And we had a hearing earlier today on the rigs to reef program about creating habitat offshore, uh, for for better fishing opportunities. Uh, I know we've got a duck expert on the panel. Uh, so let's talk about habitat in terms of of ducks. Um, Mr.
▶ 2:14:36Tharp, there's been some recent criticism about public landowners doing management practices on their land. Uh, and the public sees this as they're hoarding all the ducks under their property. Can you speak to the benefits of private management and how that's maybe a misguided, uh, assumption. >> absolutely. And and, uh, as I mentioned earlier, um, delta launched a new initiative as part of its mandate. We called duck distribution.
▶ 2:15:04We identified five major components that are affecting how ducks distribute across the the landscape of north america. And one of the five is the currently the situation. And as private lands relate to public lands. Um I have very good friends that I know well in your home state. I'm sure you had these specific instances. Um, a very good friend of mine owns property that's adjacent to a public may.
▶ 2:15:34Um, he's spending untold dollars every year to provide the best habitat that he can for waterfowl. And right beside him, the neighboring property, uh, frankly, is in shambles. And, congressman, it's not well managed. The pumps are broken, so forth and so on. And so we absolutely understand. And we feel every day, um, usually around this time of year, around the middle of january, is when our phones start ringing.
▶ 2:16:02Um, from folks who are having those kinds of experiences. And, um, it could be arguable at this point that we're actually very dependent on private landowners to provide food and energy. If you look at agricultural uses, um, there's a lot of conversation now about how efficient farmers are at getting, uh, the yield out of the field and what's actually available to those waterfowl.
▶ 2:16:28Whereas if you look at a private club that's being managed, you're going to see pristine habitat with lots of food availability and even refuge. >> so you're you're saying it's kind of like the field of dreams. You build it and they will come. So my question. Yes, sir. Why don't we build it on the public lands? And I know there are people I know the farm you're talking about. And, uh, they spend that money and do that work because they love, love ducks and want to see more ducks. But we could be talking about elk. We could be talking about turkeys.
▶ 2:16:57We could be talking about quail. Sure. We've got a poster here that, um, could be landscapes all across the country. I know in arkansas this is done with shortleaf pine and bluestem grass. >> yes, sir. >> creates great quail habitat. You got the before and the the after and endangered species habitat. They love this stuff as well.
▶ 2:17:22Um, my position is we need to see more of the funding spent to create these kinds of habitats. The neat thing about when you're doing it in forestry, you can actually generate money that goes in and pays for the next project. You know, if you're creating duck habitat, you're just you're spending a lot of money and there's a great public benefit to it. Uh, but, um, we're out of time.
▶ 2:17:48Maybe this will be a question for the record, what potential do we have with all the public lands we've got? If we started doing active management like this, the wildlife population would go through the roof, which gets back to the cycle that Mr. butler talked about. Conservation brings more people in, more people, brings more funding to do more conservation so that we can leave the place we've got in better shape than we found it, I yield back.
▶ 2:18:19>> thank you. Chairman. >> okay. I'm going to recognize myself for five minutes of questioning, but the first thing I'm going to do is yield two more minutes to the chairman so he can finish his line of questioning. >> thank you, madam chair. So, uh, anybody that wants to tackle that about being more proactive on our public lands and creating resilient forests and better, better wildlife habitat. And you can think about it in whatever species.
▶ 2:18:48You can even talk about it in, in fishing and creating better habitat for fishing. It all comes back to habitat. Um, let's start with Mr. johnson. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, you are absolutely correct. Um, effective wildlife management requires, um, good habitat management. And what we have seen, I think, is an opportunity unfolding in front of us right now.
▶ 2:19:12Let me speak for just a moment about, um, national forest lands, uh, which in west virginia, uh, comprises a little over a million acres of public land that for years. And I'm not trying to be critical of our colleagues in the, in the forest service, but for years, those lands have just not been managed, uh, actively.
▶ 2:19:33Um, there's there has been a need to go in and create, uh, habitat through, uh, through appropriate silvicultural techniques and forestry to do exactly what our habitat may be somewhat different than the poster that you have up there. Um, there are definitely some similarities.
▶ 2:19:54When you're managing timber, you're creating wildlife habitat, you're creating opportunities for hunters, uh, to get out hunters and anglers to get out into those, uh, public lands and enjoy those resources. It's all about habitat management. I couldn't agree with you more. >> I think this is a true forest, but you could find similar things on the on the ouachita and ozark in arkansas.
▶ 2:20:21Uh, anybody else like to talk about management on federal lands and how we could do a better job? >> um, I'll step in here. Mr. chairman, I appreciate the opportunity. Uh, we're backcountry hunters and anglers. Is supportive of working for us. Working landscapes. Um, the response of of wildlife to, uh, freshly burned area, for example, is not something a hunter can ignore. Not if they want to put food on the table.
▶ 2:20:51Um, as does proactive forestry work. Right. Opening up that canopy, providing early successional growth, uh, etcetera is fantastic for wildlife. Um, you know, one thing that that we've seen is a a fear of fire return to the west, whereas there's so many good examples in the east of active fire as a tool and being a would be an advocate for using all the tools available
▶ 2:21:22To us and not restricting those. >> um, chair, I want to be respectful of your time. You yielded. >> thank you. Uh, Mr. butler, the chairwoman asked you about the short season for red snapper, and and you talked about the economic impact that that has. Do you want to take just a minute and talk about how having a two day season might contribute to bad data that then justifies a short season and keeps the cycle going?
▶ 2:21:53>> yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, the crazy thing is this is one of those, um, ironic moments where noah determines small craft advisories and also is over top of what comes with efficiencies. And, and we'll get one day or two day. And if we get bad weather with small craft advisories, that puts people at a position of I can't fish, I shouldn't fish, but all of a sudden I have to fish, even though it may be dangerous because that's the only day I have.
▶ 2:22:22And there's not a blowout day. Uh, at a listed at another time by by doing that, then exactly how do you get data from people that didn't go fishing? What day did you use? And the same question I always have is I've only met one person in 30 years of saltwater fishing that's ever actually been asked by noaa what they caught. So I don't know where the data comes from.
▶ 2:22:46Whereas today with south carolina getting ready to manage that, uh, hopefully manage that fishery coming up, we're already set up to work it on an app where we can get real time data on what's been caught, uh, mortality rates that can give us good data to then decide what really is actually happening out there to make better decisions, obviously. >> thank you. Uh, I've got a really short amount of time left, but Mr. tharp, Mr.
▶ 2:23:15Johannsen, I think you both mentioned in your testimony the open unless otherwise closed policy and how helpful that would be to either one of you want to quickly, in just a few seconds, address why that's so important? >> I'll very quickly, congressman, thanks for the question. Um, we now understand that recruitment is linked implicitly with access. We can't begin to recruit the numbers we need to secure the future of of hunting in north america, unless they have places to go.
▶ 2:23:43And so and so that's that's a key bottleneck. And so we need that access to the public for the public. >> thank you. That was quick I appreciate it. Um, the chair now recognizes miss radewagen for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. Uh, Mr. johansen, access to hunting and fishing is the right of the american public.
▶ 2:24:11And a critical economic driver and conservation tool. How does expanding access on public lands translate into real economic and conservation benefits for rural states and territories? >> well, thank you very much for that question.
▶ 2:24:29And I can certainly speak as a rural state in west virginia, having, um, having the opportunity to put hunters and anglers on public lands and waters is absolutely essential in terms of, uh, generating license sales, for instance, uh, which is a key component of, of, uh, every state fish and wildlife agency in the country to be able to plow that money back into, uh, good conservation work on the ground and on the
▶ 2:25:00Waters. Um, access, um, is also essential to maintaining the tradition, I believe, uh, of, uh, particularly in rural communities, the tradition associated with getting folks on the land and on that property, the other component in a in a state like west virginia, which is just so rural, um, having the having the opportunity to put people on the ground and enjoy those resources provides enormous benefits to the to the local, uh, small rural economies,
▶ 2:25:32Where and I'm certainly not an economist, but what I, what I understand is when moneys are plowed into those, uh, those rural economies, they tend to circulate more and more and have great economic benefits. And I can tell you for certain, uh, when buck season rolls around in west virginia, many of our small mom and pop stores, um, they view that as the lifeblood of, of of their business, you know, getting getting the opportunity to bring people in by, by gasoline, by groceries, that sort of
▶ 2:26:02Thing. It just it's it just invigorates those small economies, uh, and it just terribly, terribly important. >> Mr. tharp, how does providing meaningful hunting and fishing access on refugees help build public support for wetlands conservation and the refuge system itself? >> it's a great question.
▶ 2:26:27Uh, congresswoman, and and I think one of your fellow members spoke to the urban program that the service has with refuge system. Um, and as I spoke to you earlier, wetlands play an extremely vital role in, in capturing carbon nitrates and phosphates, runoff and those sorts of things. And they have a fundamental role, um, in cleaning our nation's water.
▶ 2:26:53And so, um, it's very important that we educate the public on those benefits. And so having refuges where you can take elementary school kids, high school kids, um, for example, delta has a program, uh, we call it the university hunt program. In the 1980s, uh, 70% of the kids who came into wildlife programs at university came from hunting and fishing backgrounds. Today, that's completely opposite. 70% of the undergrads have never had that experience. And so we started a program to educate.
▶ 2:27:23But generally we're working with the with the professor at the university. We need a place to take the kids. And so the public lands are the places that we generally depend on, unless we have the generosity of private landowner. Um, and it also these are students in the wildlife program who are likely going to take roles, jobs within the service, within the state agencies. And so it helps them sort of complete the circle of the north american model. And part of that is teaching them about the importance of wetlands.
▶ 2:27:54>> thank you. Uh, very quickly, Mr. butler, your testimony highlights the challenge that fisheries face due to the precautionary principle, which is a challenge that our fisheries in the pacific has faced as well. Can you expand on how the application of this principle has negatively impacted fishing communities across the united states? >> yes. Thank you very much, congressman, for the for the question.
▶ 2:28:20Um, the shortened days have obviously, just as I talked about before, really, uh, brought bad data out, uh, where as longer seasons, um, give people calm them down and allow them to pick the days that work best for them to go out and enjoy the natural resources that we have. Um, with that, they also will be able to get better data by what the catch is, um, over time.
▶ 2:28:46And if that day data is that science comes in properly and is measured properly, we can then make better decisions. I am like about every other american. If you give me bad information, I can guarantee you a bad decision. But if you give me the right information, I will get it right at least 50% of the time, maybe even 75. So data is the key. And if we don't get that data, we can't make good decisions.
▶ 2:29:15So it's it's very important that we allow we are given the time to collect that data. But by giving longer seasons, we're asking for 62 days. And apart from the economic benefit, I think what you'll see on the federal side with the data that we get will be very impressive, uh, and accurate to make better informed decisions. And let's be honest, who knows your backyard better than you? It's the same way for the state.
▶ 2:29:45The state of south carolina, I promise, knows that coastline and their fisheries better than what the federal government does, because they don't have all the other states to deal with. They have one. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. Yield back. >> thank you. The chair recognizes Mr. walberg for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. And thanks to the panel for being here. And, uh, Mr. butler with noaa doesn't report.
▶ 2:30:09I'll report the fact that I cut my ice hole, ordered it too small, and I couldn't get the fish out two weeks ago. If you believe that, you know I'm not a fisherman, but I am. So, um, coming from the great lakes state, uh, access to hunting and fishing isn't a luxury. It's. It's a way of life. Uh, recreational fishing in in the great lakes support, uh, significant, uh, significant projects.
▶ 2:30:39$5 billion worth, uh, annually in economic benefit and supports thousands of jobs in the region. Um, thousands of visitors come who want to cast a line hoping to catch legendary, uh, lake michigan lake trout and salmon or, uh, lake erie perch and walleye. Uh, but hunting and fishing access isn't just about whether a gate is open or a boat ramp exists, or the auger hole is large enough.
▶ 2:31:06It's also about whether there are fish in the water and when wildlife policy fails. Uh, access in name only becomes a reality on the ground or on the water. Uh, a clear example is the federal government's mismanagement, in my opinion, of double crested cormorants. Uh, these birds are protected under the migratory bird treaty act.
▶ 2:31:32Yet the populations have exploded well beyond historic levels. Um, and, uh, in the great lakes and inland waters, like those in michigan, unchecked cormorant predation has significantly impacted local fisheries, wiping out stockfish, degrading habitat and reducing recreational fishing opportunities.
▶ 2:31:55Uh, and has been pointed out earlier and throughout this hearing, when anglers stop catching fish, uh, they stopped showing up. Uh, charter operations shut down, mom and pop shops are impacted negatively by that. Families lose access to very opportunities that they were charged with protecting.
▶ 2:32:18And many of the fishermen I talked to express concern about the lack of responsible management of the cormorant, and we continue that talking about it in the duck blind. Um, Mr. johansen, uh, based on your experience, how does unchecked predator depredation, particularly from double crested cormorants that are moving east, affect fish populations, angler success, and ultimately, whether recreational fishermen have a
▶ 2:32:49Meaningful opportunity to fish. And when those fisheries are degraded, what does that mean for participation? Uh, charter activity, local economies, etcetera, who depend upon recreational access? >> well, thank you for that question. I'm certainly not an expert on cormorants, but I'm familiar with the situation.
▶ 2:33:06And, um, you know, when you when you have an unchecked population, uh, that engages in significant degradation of native fish stocks or in the case of hatchery rearing facilities, they can certainly have a significant impact on that resource. >> and they are. And this is you know, I, um, this is something we need to talk about. And for too long, um, we've just accepted a status quo.
▶ 2:33:32But being out on a, on a fishing boat, going for walleye or perch and seeing cormorants, that amazing predation that they're doing on on that population with the fry and in the access with the fisheries, uh, the hatcheries as well, what they're doing.
▶ 2:33:54And then as I said, as I said, hunting duck and seeing cormorants, the black spot in the sky, and all of a sudden, just the increased numbers that are there. Uh, I think we have to get serious about that. So that's why I bring it up today. Um, Mr. johannson, continuing on, would you agree that when federal policies limit states ability to manage predator populations effectively, it's effectively reduces fishing access by eliminating or severely degrading the resource itself?
▶ 2:34:25>> why on. >> so, uh, yeah, I would I would agree that there needs to be a strong a strong recognition of state authority for managing, uh, wildlife resources. And many times that can be done in partnership, uh, with, with the appropriate federal agencies. Um, but certainly, uh, early engagement, uh, with state fish and wildlife agencies, I think is key to resolving many of these problems that don't don't invite the states to the table after the dinner has already been served.
▶ 2:34:55Let's get let's get in there early with the conversation. Let's have it, uh, open and robust and collaborative effort to address these issues. Um, and many of these issues, as you indicate, are certainly significant. >> yeah. >> and we've done that with the states and have great openness. It's the feds we're having trouble with now. So we'll keep pushing. Thanks so much I yield back. >> well, I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and members for their questions.
▶ 2:35:25The members of the committee may have additional questions. Um, and we'll ask you to respond to those in writing. Under committee rule three, members of the committee must submit questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m. Eastern time on friday, january 16th. The hearing record will be held open for ten business days. For these responses, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.