▶ 0:10:33The Subcommittee on Research and Technology will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time. I'd like to begin by recognizing myself for an opening statement for 5 minutes. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to today's Research and Technology Subcommittee hearing entitled Accelerating Progress, US Surface Transportation Research. The US transportation system underpins the American economy and the movement of goods across our nation.
▶ 0:11:01Surface transportation, including our roadways, vehicles, and supporting infrastructure, plays a central role in that success. This infrastructure is critical to American prosperity and touches the daily lives of nearly everyone in our It is especially important for Congress to assess the state of research and development in this area as we work to authorize key surface transportation Congress's surface transportation reauthorizations fund infrastructure project and support R&D initiatives tied to our nation's
▶ 0:11:32transportation systems. This subcommittee oversees the that research and technology titles within each of these bills, which have helped drive meaningful transportation research at major American universities. We will hear more about this work today from Mr. Winfrey and Dr. Liu. As we look ahead, it is important to consider the full scope of ongoing surface transportation research. Understanding these effects will help inform the committee's work to strengthen infrastructure and advance innovation here in America.
▶ 0:12:00For example, Congress must examine vulnerabilities within our transportation system. We must ensure America's transportation systems are not susceptible to interference or attack from geopolitical competitors like the Chinese Communist Imagine, if you will, a scenario in which global positioning system capabilities commonly used in vehicles were disrupted and could not quickly be Emergency services, such as firefighting agencies, could face delays reaching people in need.
▶ 0:12:29Beyond emergency response, a GPS disruption would ripple through freight and logistics networks that rely on real-time routing to move goods nationwide. Delivery schedules would falter, supply chains would slow, and costs would rise for businesses and consumers alike. Competitors could also target other connected systems, such as traffic management networks or communications, to cause widespread disruptions without ever physically damaging a single road or bridge.
▶ 0:12:59Artificial intelligence will also play a critical role in transforming our transportation system. Having served as co-chair of the bipartisan House AI Task Force last Congress, I have seen firsthand how swiftly American innovation in AI is These technologies have growing application in transportation, from congestion analysis to intelligent vehicle systems.
▶ 0:13:20AI-powered traffic signals can adjust their operations in real time based on actual traffic conditions, easing congestion and improving fuel Predictive maintenance tools can analyze sensor data from bridges and roadways to identify problems before they become safety hazards. In the future, vehicle-to-infrastructure communication systems may use AI to coordinate between vehicles and traffic signals, leading to safer intersections and smoother traffic flows.
▶ 0:13:46The Advanced Research Projects Agency Infrastructure at the Department of Transportation was authorized by Congress in 2021 to support high-risk, high-reward next-generation transportation technologies. Digital infrastructure, which enables sensitive computing, networking, and communication systems, should be a major focus of future ARPA-I investment. Autonomously driven vehicles are one rapidly growing area of innovation, and companies like Tesla and Waymo are making significant advances.
▶ 0:14:16Congress should continue evaluating these emerging technologies to support transportation systems that are both cutting-edge and safe. Surface transportation research and technology are vital to the strength of our economy. I'd like to thank our witnesses for being here today, and I appreciate their willingness to help the subcommittee explore these crucial areas of US surface transportation research. That concludes my opening statement. I'd like to now recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, Representative Stevens of Michigan, for 5 minutes for her opening statement.
▶ 0:14:46Well, thank you so much, Chairman Obernolte, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today. You know, for decades, Michigan has designed, engineered, and manufactured the components that made American vehicles the best in the world.
▶ 0:15:02I've spent my career fighting for the workers of Michigan, from helping on the US auto rescue under the administration of Barack Obama, an initiative that saved Michigan jobs, and of course, to the work on this committee, helping pass the Chips and Science Act to get US-made cars back on the lot after supply chain After last summer, I introduced the No Chinese Cars Act, which would stop the flow
▶ 0:15:32of Chinese cars and parts into the United States, undermining American autos and threatening Michigan jobs. I will always work to bolster Michigan manufacturing, protect Michigan jobs, and support our best-in-class workforce. That effort starts right here by investing in next-generation technologies. And so, this hearing comes at a very pivotal moment for the future of mobility and American competitiveness.
▶ 0:16:01The upcoming surface transportation reauthorization is Congress's opportunity to keep the United States and Michigan at the forefront of the global auto industry. At its core, this is a choice. Whose side are we on? Do we export American cars or jobs?
▶ 0:16:21The research and development investments supported by this committee will determine whether America stays in the driver's seat or lets our adversaries take the wheel. Let me start with what's working. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act has been a success story.
▶ 0:16:41In Michigan, we've seen over $32 million in Federal Highway Administration grants invested in smart intersection and connected vehicle research at the University of Michigan alone. Oakland County, the county that keeps the world on wheels, where 76 of the top 100 global auto part suppliers do business, has leveraged these investments to strengthen our manufacturing ecosystem.
▶ 0:17:06And of course, we don't want to get complacent, especially in setting our nation's surface transportation R&D agenda for years to come. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials recommends that at a minimum, Congress should maintain funding at the current laws levels, adjusting for inflation. Every dollar we don't invest in American transportation technology and infrastructure is a dollar of advantage we hand to our competitors.
▶ 0:17:35Just a few years ago, Chinese vehicles barely registered on the global stage. Today, China is the world's largest auto producer, flooding cheap, largely electric vehicles. Congress cannot ignore these realities or the pressure these Chinese vehicles and components flooding the market put on Michigan manufacturers and auto workers.
▶ 0:17:59Despite misguided trade and manufacturing policies, Michigan is still fighting, but our workers need us in their corner. This Science Committee has an important voice in the surface transportation bill and this is an important hearing for us to discuss what investments will keep America at the forefront of the next-generation mobility technologies. I'm also particularly pleased to see Dr.
▶ 0:18:27Henry Liu, uh director of M City at the University of Michigan here today. Investments like M City represent exactly the kind of research infrastructure that keeps America competitive, and I look forward to hearing more. And I'm very confident, Mr.
▶ 0:18:44Chair, that we can find common ground on investments that keep America competitive, support American workers, and ensure that when the world buys the vehicles of tomorrow, they're designed, engineered, and built in the United States of America, and with my preference, in Michigan. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back. Thank you, thank you, Ranking Member Stevens. I now recognize the chairman of the full committee, Representative Babin of Texas, for 5 minutes for his opening
▶ 0:19:11Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Looking forward to your testimony. Uh good afternoon, Chairman Obernolte. Again, thank you for your for this this hearing. I want to thank these witnesses as well. And uh we want to uh see what you all have to say about uh shaping our surface transportation across the United States. Transportation is a circulatory system of the American economy. Industry and commerce depend upon it.
▶ 0:19:38And we must do everything we can to keep that system very strong. When the flow of transportation weakens, roadblocks can prevent America from moving forward as it should. Research and development in surface transportation is especially important. From trucks on our highways that support commerce to safety innovations that protect our families on our roadways, these systems affect Americans every single day.
▶ 0:20:05Surface transportation R&D also plays a vital role in safety. Research into crash avoidance systems, better road materials, and vehicle-to-vehicle communication can and does save lives. Every mile we travel can be safer than the last if we invest in smarter vehicles and in our infrastructure. As transportation technologies evolve, we also need a workforce prepared to Excuse me, to [clears throat] build and maintain them.
▶ 0:20:34Another area where American research leadership is critical. Our universities are central to these The This subcommittee oversees the research and technology titles within the surface transportation These bills enable groundbreaking work in institutions across our country, including the Texas A&M Transportation Institute or TTI in my home state of Director Winfrey, I am eager to learn more about TTI's work on vehicle safety,
▶ 0:21:05advanced sensor technologies, and on automated vehicles. I am also interested in hearing from our witnesses about the innovation in the private sector as American companies continue developing their own autonomous vehicle technologies. Self-driving cars may well be a defining technology of the future. It is remarkable how advances in artificial intelligence are converging with transportation.
▶ 0:21:30Understanding these applications across both academia and industry is key to ensuring that the United States leads in surface transportation innovation. At the same time, Congress must examine the full scope of the United States research portfolio to ensure that America remains at the very forefront.
▶ 0:21:51We must also ensure that our transportation infrastructure and research enterprise are not vulnerable to interference from foreign adversaries like the Chinese Communist Party, whether through exploiting weaknesses in GPS networks, targeting connected vehicle software, or racing ahead in the next generation technologies that could transform global markets, these risks are real and they demand our attention.
▶ 0:22:18From highways to to railways, surface transportation in the United States is at a crossroads. And the decisions that we make today will define mobility for generations to I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about their current state of research in this field, and it is so important and certainly in an exciting time for innovation in surface transportation. But thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance of my Thank you, Chairman Babin.
▶ 0:22:47I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Representative Lofgren of California, for 5 minutes for her opening statement. Uh thank you, Chairman Obernolte and Ranking Member Stevens for holding today's hearing. I would also like to thank our expert panel of witnesses uh for their testimony. You know, some topics that we cover here in the committee can feel, you know, futuristic or abstract like quantum computing, uh but surface transportation affects the lives of of everyone who's here.
▶ 0:23:18Um Every person in the country every day travels each year the nation's roads, highways, mass transit systems allow Americans to travel billions of miles and ship trillions of dollars in goods and services. Uh but we also need to be clear-eyed about the challenges before us today. Our nation has crumbling infrastructure.
▶ 0:23:43Despite the historic investments made during the Biden administration, the American Society of Civil Engineers still gave America a C in its most recent infrastructure report. 39% of major roads in the US are in poor or mediocre condition, and it surely does not help that the Trump administration has unilaterally terminated billions of dollars of commitments made under the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act that appear to be
▶ 0:24:13entirely motivated by The administration's ill-considered tariffs and other actions against our international partners are also contributing to inflation and supply chain disruptions that are increasing construction costs, and they also threaten our state's ability to keep up with growing transportation needs.
▶ 0:24:36Our colleagues on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee will debate how best to support our roads, rails, and bridges over the next 5 years, but the Science Committee has a job to look further into the future uh to the transportation solutions and innovations of tomorrow. It's through research that we will have an opportunity to make our transportation systems safer, cheaper, more efficient, and more environmentally friendly.
▶ 0:25:04Researchers are exploring ways to make roads self-healing or or methods to recycle pavement uh to make our roads more environmentally friendly. Research can help us identify and address supply chain uh shocks, understand how they can impact transportation, and finally, as we modernize our transportation systems with automation and sustainable technologies, research is going to be critical to understanding the impacts of these uh technologies on legacy
▶ 0:25:36One of the key federal investments in transportation research is the University Transportation Center Program. This program supports a consortium of universities that tackle major uh transportation topics from smart infrastructure to next generation GPS and autonomous vehicles. I'm pleased to see two UTCs uh represented on the panel today.
▶ 0:26:00Unfortunately, the administration's mishandling of this long-standing and successful program shows yet another instance of manufactured chaos. Last May, Secretary Chao chose to terminate seven grants to UTCs, including one at San Jose State University located in my district, on the basis of the grants, quote, "didn't meet the new priorities of the department." Now, this action immediately halted over 40 specific research projects supporting nearly
▶ 0:26:30100 faculty and students across four universities. This decision, I think, was completely unfair to the university who universities who had, after all, competed for the awards. Awardees didn't have a say in the criteria that were set by Congress and implemented by the previous administration. Last summer, Transportation and Infrastructure Ranking Member Larsen and I sent the department a letter calling for this decision to be reconsidered.
▶ 0:26:59Now, I was heartened by the department's ultimate decision to re-compete the terminated awards, but I worry that these arbitrary terminations will shake confidence in DOT as a reliable partner, stall future transportation research programs, and further hamper the next generation of transportation workforce. The most recent surface transportation law, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act, expires in September of this year.
▶ 0:27:28Uh I'm looking forward to engaging with Dr. Babin, our chairman, and the transportation research community, the administration, as well as the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee uh for the impending reauthorization. I hope that the ideas uh shared with the committee can uh today can help inform our important work in that effort. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back my remaining 3
▶ 0:27:55Well timed. Thank you, Ranking Member Lofgren. We'll now move to witness testimony. Let me introduce our first witness, Ms. Diana Furchtgott-Roth. In President Trump's first term, Ms. Furchtgott-Roth served as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Research and Technology at the US Department of Transportation, where she directed the $1.2 billion of research portfolio of the department and led the Volpe National Transportation Systems Center and the Transportation Safety Institute. Ms.
▶ 0:28:25Furchtgott-Roth, you are recognized for 5 minutes for your testimony. Thank you very much. Uh uh thank you very much, uh Chairman Babin, Chairman Obernolte, Ranking Member Lofgren, Ranking Member Stevens. Thanks for allowing me to testify today. American progress has always been the product of American ingenuity.
▶ 0:28:47Ever since Henry Ford and the Wright brothers made breakthroughs in transportation technology, and these moved the nation, made us wealthier, enhanced convenience, and improved our competitive advantages. Better transportation gives people a better choice of jobs. We had great jobs numbers today, 172,000 private sector jobs created, a 4.3% unemployment rate.
▶ 0:29:11These would not have been possible without our transportation Well, America requires transportation to lead technology race in uh transport, and transportation research is particularly important to safeguard America's transportation system. Safety is a public good, and it's the of the federal government.
▶ 0:29:36Let's take four areas: automation, GPS backup, American-made batteries, and public-private partnerships. First, because approximately 40,000 people are killed on the roads every year and millions are injured, the government has an interest in reducing accidents on those roads, in the air, and on railroads. Automation has been showed to lower these accident rates.
▶ 0:30:02I want to mention the OSTR program ARPA-I, which is particularly valuable. DARPA has spent much time seeding the field in the many decades preceding the current boom in AI. And ARPA-I can address road safety and automation of transportation corridors. I just want to mention a few projects that ARPA-I has been working on. New bridge construction technology that will speed the construction of bridges.
▶ 0:30:30Uh the DOT intersection safety challenge, which develops technology at intersections uh that will keep children safe. Running an Ideas Innovation project that has engaged hundreds of innovators across the country to come up with technology to improve transportation infrastructure. Second, foreign actors are increasingly attempting to disrupt the systems that Americans use on the roads, in the air, and on the seas.
▶ 0:31:00They want to do this by hacking and spoofing our global positioning system. The federal government provides GPS free of charge, and it has an interest in protecting this GPS. And to install backup systems in government vehicles to make sure that uh they are available if GPS goes out.
▶ 0:31:21Turn AI, uh and I'm serve on the advisory board of Turn AI, has developed a very inexpensive backup system for GPS that can operate independently of spectrum or visual signals. It works by feeding a sophisticated map in the info system, and the sophisticated map works with the vehicle sensors. It's been tested by DOT, the army, uh FedEx is interested cuz it doesn't want its trucks to be stranded.
▶ 0:31:50Amazon is interested cuz it wants to reduce error rates. It's very important that this type of technology, inexpensive, uh readily available, be extended to government vehicles also. Uh the Ohio State Carmen Center, uh which is funded by DOT, has demonstrated that cellular communications infrastructure can be harnessed to deliver the most accurate PNT performance across a wide range of platforms and environments.
▶ 0:32:18And recently, in the latest bill, Congress appropriated 5 million for the Department of Transportation to deploy backup positioning, navigation, and timing services. This is in the FY2026 Transportation, Housing, and Urban Development Appropriations bill uh that was passed by the Senate. Third, spying from Chinese spying from electronic components and batteries is uh very damaging to the United States.
▶ 0:32:45And it's very important that we have US-made batteries in order to uh address this and to make sure that our system is not vulnerable. Just today, it was announced that DOT is requiring uh 100% made in the United States electric battery chargers. And electric batteries are available uh made in the United States, made from lithium in North Carolina, processed in the United States uh at the same cost as Chinese batteries.
▶ 0:33:15And Chinese battery uh chargers would be very damaging because they would be spying on people who charge up their vehicles. It's very important that we have uh uh that we reduce spying by Chinese uh on American uh motorists. Fourth, uh public-private partnerships are vital to replace and maintain And we heard about the crumbling infrastructure. We need to make sure that the private sector has an opportunity to do this.
▶ 0:33:45One of the ways is tolling, and the Federal Communications Commission shouldn't be allowed to give away part of the 900 MHz band of spectrum, which will mean that these toll systems will no longer work, and we won't be able to have private-public partnerships in order to to build the roads that we need to and maintain the ones that we have. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Fitzgothroath.
▶ 0:34:09We'll move to our next witness now, the Honorable Greg Winfrey, the agency director of the Texas A&M Transportation Institute. In this role, he leads one of the largest and most comprehensive higher education-affiliated transportation research institutes in the United He represents TTI within the Texas A&M University System, reporting to the Vice Chancellor for Engineering, and serves as the institute's liaison to the Texas He also serves as an adjunct professor at the Texas A&M School of Law.
▶ 0:34:39Before joining TTI, Mr. Winfrey Mr. Winfrey spent nearly 7 years at the US Department of Transportation, most recently as Assistant Secretary of Transportation, overseeing the department's research and technology programs. Mr. Winfrey, you are recognized for 5 minutes for your
▶ 0:34:57Thank you so much, Chairman Obernolte. Greeting Ranking Member Stevens, Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Lofgren. And members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for inviting me to testify about the importance of federal surface transportation research programs. Again, my name is Greg Winfrey, and I'm the agency director of the Texas A&M Transportation Institute, or TTI.
▶ 0:35:20Prior to joining TTI in 2016, as you've heard, I served as the Assistant Secretary for Research and Technology at Established in 1950 and a member of the Texas A&M University System, TTI is a state agency and the largest and most comprehensive university-affiliated transportation research center in the United States.
▶ 0:35:42Throughout our 75-year history, TTI has addressed complex transportation challenges and has conducted work in all 50 states and more than 54 countries. As this committee well knows, technology is changing at an incredible rate. Innovations that would once take decades are now happening daily.
▶ 0:36:01Much of this innovation is coming out of research institutions like TTI, and continued investment in transportation research is vital to securing US dominance in transportation and We cannot allow ourselves to fall behind our adversaries, which I fear may already be happening at a quickening TTI values its long-standing collaborative relationship with USDOT.
▶ 0:36:26Our partnership is a notable example of the force multiplier role that research institutions can serve for USDOT and its state and local DOT partners. Research institutions are major participants in USDOT-sponsored including the cooperative research programs managed by the Transportation Research Board. The research community also supports many other USDOT activities, including the ITS Joint Program Office, the SMART Grant program, and ARPA-I.
▶ 0:36:59The UTC program is of particular The UTCs move ideas from research to assisting USDOT in addressing transportation's biggest challenges and delivering measurable impacts for communities, agencies, and industry.
▶ 0:37:15The UTCs have been at their most successful when centers have the freedom to take the priorities set forth by Congress and USDOT and identify the research areas that will drive UTCs should be used as implementation partners and force multipliers, extending USDOT's capacity to work directly with states on deployment. Now, we appreciate the support Congress has given to the UTC program.
▶ 0:37:42As you work on the next surface transportation bill, reauthorization of the UTC program will ensure that USDOT continues to be able to harness the power and creativity of university research to address our nation's most pressing transportation challenges. Specifically, Congress should authorize the UTC program at not less than $100 million per year.
▶ 0:38:06In addition to the UTC program, TTI has identified the following critical research areas that are deserving of federal attention and investment. Transportation intelligence. A resilient transportation system requires reliable nationwide intelligence so USDOT and state agencies can plan and respond But today, our data is fragmented with no unified access across state lines.
▶ 0:38:33That's why TTI is working in partnership with Senator Cornyn and the University of Maryland to propose a national infrastructure intelligence tool through the Congestion Mitigation Act. Emerging technology. The transportation sector is rapidly transforming and is evolving from siloed individual nodes to digital infrastructure connecting modes and Research institutions are key partners in accelerating the deployment of innovative digital technologies, shared data,
▶ 0:39:03and coordinated operations to transform and modernize major US transportation corridors. Dedicated funding in the next surface transportation reauthorization bill for technology deployment will serve to enhance these efforts. The department's recently released digital infrastructure RFI is also a welcome step. Transportation safety.
▶ 0:39:26The United States has yet to significantly reduce transportation-related fatalities in recent years, despite implementing several new technologies and approaches. Giving the continuing alarming trends in fatalities and injuries, it is clear there is a need for a more universal, beneficial, and proactive approach to safety planning, deployment, and assessment at the state, regional, and national levels.
▶ 0:39:50On behalf of the 700 dedicated professionals at TTI, thank you for your support for federal surface transportation research programs. I would be happy to answer any questions you have. Thank you, Mr. Winfrey. Our final witness is Dr.
▶ 0:40:05Henry Liu, the Bruce Green Shields Collegiate Professor of Engineering at the University of Michigan, where he serves as director of the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, M-City, and the USDOT funded Center for the Connected and Automated His research bridges traffic systems, vehicle automation, and artificial intelligence with a focus on real-world deployment. He currently serves as managing editor of the Journal of Intelligent Transportation Systems. Dr.
▶ 0:40:35Liu, you are recognized for 5 minutes for your testimony. Good afternoon, um Chairman Obernolte, um Ranking Member Stevens, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Henry Liu. I'm a professor at the University of Michigan, and I serve as the director of University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, which include M-City and the USDOT funded Center for Connected Automated Transportation.
▶ 0:40:57Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss how the US can accelerate progress in surface transportation My remarks focus on two priority areas. The first priority area is to establish a rigorous national framework for autonomous vehicle safety testing and evaluation. It's needed because autonomous driving system are moving from limited pilot towards broader deployment, and society need a credible answer to a basic question.
▶ 0:41:26How do we know a system is safe enough to scale? Without a rigorous, unbiased evaluation framework, we face two unacceptable outcomes. Either premature deployment based on incomplete evidence that undermines public trust, or delayed adoption of potentially life-saving technology because regulators, insurers, and and communities lack a principled basis for confidence.
▶ 0:41:55But autonomous vehicle safety testing is difficult not only because crashes are rare and operational field is effectively open-ended, but also because modern AVs are AI-driven and partially black box. Performance can vary sharply with small changes in context. A learning-based component can fail in non-intuitive ways, often described as hallucinations.
▶ 0:42:23Because of these fundamentals, a national AV evaluation framework cannot be created by policy alone. It requires sustained research to make safety evidence rigorous and scalable, and to enable independent assessment. At M-City, through a massive funded M-City 2.0 effort, we have developed a behavior safety assessment program with two complementary components.
▶ 0:42:48Basic behavior competency testing use scenario libraries to establish behavioral flaw analog to human licensing. The driving intelligence test provides statistical evaluation in naturalistic and adversarial environment to uncover unknown unsafe behaviors and estimate accident rate with confidence bound.
▶ 0:43:10It is important to note this is still a developing framework, but it offers a practical practical blueprint for third-party performance-based The second priority is to advance AI-based digital road infrastructure so agencies can improve safety and mobility with do more with less capabilities.
▶ 0:43:31The opportunity is to leverage AI to turn vast amount the vast amount of data agencies own into actionable operational Two examples illustrate what this look like in practice. The first example is to use anonymized vehicle trajectory data to optimize traffic signal timing plans without any new sensors.
▶ 0:43:54At Mcity, we demonstrate this with significant reduction in delays and stops, and we are scaling the system with pilot in Oakland County, Michigan with a USDOT funded Smart Phase 1 grant. The second example is to leverage AI to safety monitor with existing cameras. Because crashes are rare, so it take a long time to collect crash data for safety management.
▶ 0:44:21At Mcity, we leverage AI and existing cameras to compute conflict indicators, allowing agency to detect crash risk and evaluate counting measures months or years before crash statistics would show a change. The system is being deployed at more than 50 intersections in the city of Ann Arbor, in Michigan. To accelerate progress in these two priority areas, I have the following recommended actions for Congress to consider.
▶ 0:44:51First, to establish a dedicated federal program to advance the science of autonomous vehicle Second, to build shared research accessible data and compute infrastructure, including privacy-preserving repository and dedicated compute resources. Third, to provide stable, long-term support for test bed and living labs.
▶ 0:45:14And last but not least, to reauthorize and modernize the University Transportation Centers program as the backbone of the With these steps, the United States can lead in transportation safety, infrastructure modernization, and the responsible deployment of AI-enabled mobility grounded in rigorous evidence and measurable public benefit. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Thank you, Dr. Liu.
▶ 0:45:45We will now move to questions from members of the subcommittee. I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes for questions. Uh Ms. Fitzgarthroth, I would like to start with you. One of the common frustrations that I hear, not only from members of Congress, but from members of the research community, is that quite often we will fund really promising technology pilot that are successful, but then get stuck and never achieve nationwide deployment.
▶ 0:46:15So I'm curious uh about your tenure at the DOT and your experience with overcoming these structural barriers to get research from the lab out into the real world.
▶ 0:46:28And specifically, I'm interested in the specific steps that we can take in uh during this reauthorization to strengthen that process, because obviously a program that never advances beyond the pilot program is not one that most of our constituents are going to realize the benefits from.
▶ 0:46:50So, part of the problem that I saw when I was deputy assistant secretary for research and technology was a big fight over connected vehicles. The industry had developed dedicated short-range communications, and then some of the spectrum was taken away by another part of the government and reallocated, so that that technology couldn't be used.
▶ 0:47:18And then that other agency, the Federal Communications Commission, ended up requiring a second technology called Cellular V2X. So it was a question of two different departments working in contradictory directions.
▶ 0:47:33And we can see this happening again with the Federal Communications Commission uh uh inquiry consideration of repurposing the 900 MHz band, giving it to a particular company uh uh called NextNav. Uh to ostensibly to use it for GPS backup, but this company already provides GPS backup. You can already see on the website. And that would disrupt the toll collectors.
▶ 0:48:03And again, that's a very important transportation resource, because that's used for public-private partnerships. If you want to build a new for example, the new Indiana Toll Road, other kinds of new bridges, tolls are very important. So, uh those are the kinds of arguments that kind of need to be straightened out within the executive branch.
▶ 0:48:22In terms of certain technologies not working out, then it's possible that just like there's a dry hole in an oil uh company, or a pharmaceutical company invests in some drug that then doesn't work, it's very important to have the investments. You can't be assured that 100% of them work, then you're just going to take very low-risk activities, and you want to look at basically a high-risk activities. Right. Now, of course.
▶ 0:48:47And no one pretends that those are bad investments, because as you point out, we need to to to sort for the the few things that are going to be really super successful. We've got to make a wide variety of different investments, but certainly frustrated when the conditions change as you've Uh Mr. Winfrey, a similar question for you.
▶ 0:49:06I was interested in your written testimony that you noted federal research dollars go furthest when the goal is to deploy technology on real roads, not just produce a study, which I think is the goal of most of these investment dollars. Uh you also emphasized that sometimes our biggest challenge is not actually generating good ideas, but getting those ideas tested, standardized, and adopted by state departments of transportation.
▶ 0:49:31So, can you share with us uh an example where that transition worked well, and maybe one that it fell short, and identify the factors that made the difference? Absolutely, and it's a a mix of the question you asked previously and an answer to the question you just posed. So, thank you for that, Mr. Chairman. I would call it stair steps to success. Um pilot programs are terrific.
▶ 0:49:58Uh when I was assistant secretary, we were pleased and thrilled to be able to grant to the University of Michigan and Transportation Institute the connected vehicle safety pilot, and that proved out technologies that Ms.
▶ 0:50:11FirstGotRoth is talking about with respect to vehicles having the ability to communicate in real time and uh with either other vehicles or with That technology was proven, but because of the timetables technology development in the transportation space is on a much longer time frame than what you find from Silicon Valley. And you can put a new cell phone out and have it crash and no one dies.
▶ 0:50:39You can't put a temp transportation technology out and have and and and and be able to tolerate those kinds of end points. So, it needs to be absolutely safe before it's introduced into the traveling public. So, that's certainly one uh frame of reference for understanding to better uh execute uh these technologies to get them into the uh communities and before the American driving and traveling public, but also it's a funding issue.
▶ 0:51:07Funding uh at the federal level uh dictates federal leadership. There is a need for guidance from USDOT with respect to how the states operate because the funds that come from the federal government trickle down to the states for execution, and without an adequate game plan and directive from the feds, you wind up with what we have now with 50 state cacophony with folks that don't know what to do. So, yes, pilot programs are good.
▶ 0:51:35Uh get those in place and then have a strategy for nationwide deployment. I think a good instance of where that is showing and bearing some fruit now is with the VITA X deployment program through USDOT that uh TTI is working on in Houston, but Arizona and Utah are both uh partnered in that regard. This is a deployment program. This isn't a pilot.
▶ 0:52:00This is an actual deployment that will have uh it prove out the technology for nationwide deployment. So, it can be done. Right. Well, thank you very much for the insights. So, my time is expired. I'll now now recognize ranking member Stevens for her 5 minutes for her questions. Okay, thank you. Um the University Transportation Centers program is a competitive grant program that supports mid to long-term surface transportation research.
▶ 0:52:26As our ranking member mentioned, and of course we've been seeing um grants get canceled through UTC awards and um schedule expirations uh just coming into effect. And so, Mr. Winfrey and Dr. Lu, um can you describe the impacts of these cancellations on the broader community?
▶ 0:52:48Do actions like these undermine confidence in the stability and predictability of federal research Ranking member Stevens, like you just mentioned that um these grants are um competitively bidded um and so uh it's certainly a surprise for us that we see that some of the programs has been canceled and terminated.
▶ 0:53:15And then um um we are in the process of re-bidding um in some some of these are re-bidding these programs. And so so, I do think that uh this will create um some uh uncertainty in transportation research and uh um and um this will impact not only the research project, but also this faculty and students also involved in these projects. And so, this is certainly uh a shock to the transportation enterprise in the US.
▶ 0:53:46And Mr. Winfrey, if these program cancellations were to happen or to occur at your respective institution, what would be the immediate impacts? I to to echo uh what Dr. Lu said, certainly uh faculty and students, but let's not forget these are consortia, and and the UTC program is something I hold dear. I was the the bureaucrat that had to take it to a fully competitive program that we have now.
▶ 0:54:15So, I'm very beholden to the UTC program, but what I'm saying is um uh it's a it's a consortium. So, these these programs have one to sometimes 10 or 11 universities involved. So, it's not just the name and lead school that suffers. There are downstream effects, and the intent was to share uh these resource dollars across a wider area. So, it's regional or even greater in its impact. So, it is it is it can be devastating.
▶ 0:54:44Well, you you have a lot to be proud of with that program, and also thank you for your incredible testimony written and delivered. And you know, one of the biggest challenges confronting Congress in the upcoming surface transportation reauthorization is how uh best to balance safety and innovation with the deployment of autonomous Um while we are not as focused on the regulatory challenges on this committee, there are still critical research and testing that needs to be done to improve
▶ 0:55:15um the safety and to understand the impact of such a transition. And Dr. Lu, in 2024, your team at MCity released the MCity digital twin, which I'm a fan of the digital twin, uh to support the development and testing of autonomous and connected vehicle software. Unlike other platforms, this digital twin is an open-source project. So, can you just describe for us here the MCity digital twin and explain how tools like this can advance mobility research?
▶ 0:55:47Sure. That's a great question. So, MCity digital twin is uh was built as part of the NSF-supported national um uh MCity 2.0 project. Um and uh in that project you know, we have MCity physical infrastructure. And and then um we start digital twin, we couple the physical infrastructure with the digital infrastructure. And now we can open up MCity for uh remote access to this mixed reality test uh um uh test bed.
▶ 0:56:17And this is particularly important. We are at Michigan, we are fortunate enough we have a test bed. And one of the things I um specified in my testimony is that uh the transportation research community like um lacks uh a test bed to test out their algorithms. And and so, that they can um uh specify the parameters and and before they deploy it uh in the real road.
▶ 0:56:42Um And so, this digital twin of this uh uh MCity is particularly important that uh it not only um enables researchers to test out their algorithm before they even test in MCity uh physical infrastructure, but also they because it's open-source, they can incorporate this into their algorithms and and uh and and do some specification with with it.
▶ 0:57:07It's open-source, so it's not only to academic community, but it's also to the industry as well. And so, you have seen multiple um a number of users have used using these digital twins. And we also further develop these digital twins not only not only constrained at MCity, but now we are developing a city scale digital twin for the city of Ann Arbor.
▶ 0:57:30We're also working with uh San Francisco County Transportation Authority to build a much larger scale digital twin so that we can test out autonomous vehicles in terms of uh particularly to explore their unknown unsafe behaviors, and also to estimate the accident rates they will be occurring um when they being deployed in large scale. Well, keep up the great work, and with that, Mr. Chair, I yield The gentleman yields back.
▶ 0:57:57I now recognize my colleague from California, Mr. Fong, for 5 minutes for his Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um and thank you for uh for the testimony. Um I wanted to focus uh on my questions to you, Ms. Diana uh FirstGotRoth. Um I certainly am am am bullish when it comes to autonomous technology, especially when it comes to transportation.
▶ 0:58:21Um I've introduced America Drives Act to try to create a national framework uh to allow the deployment uh safely um of this technology. I was wanting to get from your expertise and your experience, um you know, what should we be doing now to advance uh autonomous technology, especially when it comes to to cars and trucks? Uh thanks for that excellent question. autonomous [snorts] driving can go so very, very far to reduce accidents.
▶ 0:58:50I was really happy to have my first ride in a Waymo uh taxi when I was in Phoenix a few months ago. It was really a transformative experience. It went slower than I would have gone. Uh very safe. And I know that there are headlines whenever there's an accident with an autonomous vehicle, but there are far fewer than there are on the regular vehicles uh on the road uh driver uh driver uh vehicles with drivers in them.
▶ 0:59:18So, I think it's very important that uh federal government set overall performance standards, but then let different states and cities roll out these autonomous vehicles as they see fit. And when I was deputy assistant secretary for research and technology, I would travel the country and people in Greenville would say, "Why aren't you allowing me to use my autonomous shuttle?" People in Tampa would say, "Why aren't you allowing me to use my autonomous shuttle?" So, I think it's very important to get this technology out. Point one.
▶ 0:59:47Point two, if you have autonomous trucking, if you have autonomous trucks, you need a whole corridor across the United States to do so. So, I think it's very important to have corridors where autonomous trucks can go so that they don't find they get to, for example, Texas, then they can't use the autonomous technology, then they can use it after they go through Texas. So, something like I-10 having autonomous an autonomous corridor there or a couple of other corridors would be very helpful, also. I couldn't agree with you more.
▶ 1:00:15I do invite you to maybe, you know, take a ride on Aurora's or Kodiak's autonomous trucks. I had the same experience going in Texas and of course interstate commerce, you know, we we can't have you know, 50 different rules across the country, especially when we're trying to get you know, from point A to point B, especially when it comes to the supply From in terms of the legislative
▶ 1:00:46are there specific legislative barriers that that you've seen in your research that need to be addressed to help propel the technology forward? You've kind of outlined, you know, kind of putting a framework, but you know, do you have any specific uh legislative ideas that you think need to be, you know, in the short term need to be addressed and then in in the long term, you know, as well? I don't have any of them right now, but I would be happy to get back to you with a list of those proposed legislative changes.
▶ 1:01:13And I just want to add that in terms of our workforce, I in we see that that that our workforce is not necessarily expanding as fast as it used to be. We have shortages of truck drivers that I think one of the barriers to autonomous technology, not just in the road area, but also in ports has been the feeling that workers will be disenfranchised, but with autonomous technology, productivity can be increased, people
▶ 1:01:43can be paid more, and all technology has been leading to an expansion of employment rather than a I want to offer the the other two panelists to to to chime in as well in terms of what what can we do to advance autonomous technology? Are there any specific legislative barriers that you've seen in your research? Certainly welcome your expertise to both of you. Thank you so much, Mr. Fong, and and I'll be brief.
▶ 1:02:10Again, it's a lack of federal leadership with respect to harmonizing the 50 states. We've got a 50-state cacophony right now with different rules. However, I'm proud to say that the great state of Texas is the leader with respect to self-driving technologies with Aurora, Gatik, and others on our roadways, but Ms. First got rather is exactly right.
▶ 1:02:33If we're going to get commerce from California to Florida on I-10 or I-40 or any of the other interstates, we need to be able to have a seamless connectivity between the states. Thank you. So, one of the things I want to add is There's various program in the federal some of the federal project, but safety testing and evaluation of autonomous vehicles is scattered around. There's no central place that the federal program support safety testing and evaluation.
▶ 1:03:02I want to mention that autonomous vehicle safety testing and evaluation, it is a difficult problem. It's not easy. There's no consensus how do we test these vehicles in terms of their safety performance. And so, so now when something happened with, you know, these autonomous vehicle developers and this this blame goes to the company.
▶ 1:03:27And so, I think there's there's need for the federal to establish a federal program to to really explore the science behind autonomous vehicle safety testing and then to provide some sort of framework how do we evaluate and also to investigate how safe is it safe enough. Right? So, in in terms of this technology. Well, my time has run out, but I appreciate I appreciate the leadership of Texas.
▶ 1:03:52I that's where I and and saw these technologies in first in real time first hand. So, thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. The gentleman yields back. We'll go next to the representative from Delaware, Ms. McBride. You're recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to you, Mr. Chairman, and ranking member Stevens for hosting this hearing today and good afternoon to our witnesses. Thank you so much for taking the time to come before us today to share your expertise and your knowledge.
▶ 1:04:21This committee plays a unique role in moving forward legislation that advances research and development efforts for surface transportation. As we heard earlier, university transportation centers are authorized and funded to research and develop recommendations that make our roads and infrastructure better and safer for Americans. I am proud that the University of Delaware and the greatest state in the history of the Union, Delaware, plays an important role.
▶ 1:04:47I heard some laughter Plays an important role in this effort as one of only seven universities that form the smarter center. After the tragic collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge in 2024, the smarter center mobilized quickly to study the impact of the collapse, to develop recommendations to help mitigate the impact, and to carry out long-term research to learn about the lasting consequences of the tragedy.
▶ 1:05:18As a member of the smarter center, the University of Delaware conducts research that is community-based, folding in workforce development, multimodal transit options, urban areas, food access, emerging technologies, and more while involving industry partners, government agencies, and more.
▶ 1:05:35This research is not only timely, but crucial to helping us understand how we can make wise investments to make our infrastructure work better for us Congress and the administration should continue to support this important work rather than pulling the rug out from under our researchers and universities that are working to advance our understanding and inform our I'd like to start with Dr. Liu.
▶ 1:06:00In your experience as a director of a university transportation center, could you speak more to how you would characterize the impact that sustained federal funding has on transportation research through UTCs and how does this work help state and local governments make smarter and more cost-effective decisions? Yes, I want to agree with my colleague Greg Winfree that these transportation university transportation centers, they are consortium.
▶ 1:06:30So, at the center for connected automated transportation, our region five UTC, we have nine universities within the consortium. And so, this not only just the leading university, but also a number of consortium members.
▶ 1:06:46The second thing I want to emphasize is these UTCs not only conduct research and make impact in terms of our policy and practice, but also this is important consortium to educate our next generation workforces. And so, so at UTC, I want to emphasize these are research, workforce, and impact. It's not only just the research.
▶ 1:07:13it carries the the responsibility to educate our next generation workforce. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. And Assistant Secretary Secretary Winfree, we just heard a little bit about Waymo's.
▶ 1:07:26I haven't had the chance to to ride in one yet, but moving back and sort of talking more broadly about emerging technologies, could you speak about the role UTCs have played in studying emerging technologies in transportation to help improve safety and resilience of our transportation systems? And what role do UTCs play in facilitating the mass deployment of these technologies in a timely and safe That's a great question.
▶ 1:07:54Thank you so A good way to think about it is something that we're doing at Texas A&M and it's called the transportation technology innovation If you look at state DOTs around the country, they're inundated with brilliant ideas that, "Hey, only for a million dollars we can solve all your problems." State DOTs don't have the depth of bench to do the research and really invest the time in figuring out what's wheat and what's chaff, what's real and what's Memorex.
▶ 1:08:24That's where university transportation centers can play a huge role by bringing those technologies into a into a space that's got controlled access, that's got proving grounds, that's got the depth of bench as a force multiplier for the state DOT personnel to test out those technologies and then give them the consumer reports seal of approval as to whether or not it will work in their system or to be objective and tell them whether or not it's not going to work and it's not
▶ 1:08:54worth the investment. So, that is a a tremendous role that universities can play starting tomorrow with respect to working with state DOTs in partnership to ensure that the best technologies get into the transportation system to start saving lives now. Thank you. Yeah, that scalability of expertise is a real benefit for our state and local governments in particular. Thank you very much. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. We'll hear next from the gentlewoman from Maryland, Ms. McLean Delaney.
▶ 1:09:23You're recognized for 5 minutes for for your questions. Thank you to our chair and to our ranking member and thanks to our witnesses here today. I've been watching this and very very interested in in in hearing your testimony. So, I represent Maryland's 6th Congressional District, which stretches from the suburbs of Washington, D.C. to the West Virginia and Pennsylvania borders. I often call it the microcosm of America because it's diversity in geography from rural to suburban to urban.
▶ 1:09:54[clears throat] But given our proximity to the capital, many of my constituents commute far distances to D.C. or across our wide diverse geographic district. Surface transportation is about connectivity from bridges to highways and beyond. And for many that means public transit to get to work, take kids to school, or reach the grocery store. So, in Montgomery County, which is very close to D.C., we've seen what's possible when we put affordability first.
▶ 1:10:24Our county pioneered a fair free ride on bus system and it's made a real difference in higher ridership, lower transportation costs for families, and better access. And sadly, that stands in stark contrast to the uncertainty coming from this administration and the Department of Transportation on on proposed attacks on our free fair transit programs.
▶ 1:10:48But transit isn't just about accessibility, it's about affordability and not having to pay hundreds of dollars a month for car insurance or transportation instead of affordable daycare or other costs. But research in this innovation and greater access is what I'm really um really key to me and that brings me today to focus on strengthening our surface transportation research.
▶ 1:11:12We have a real opportunity here and I'm looking forward to hearing about a couple of things with innovation, AI, new tech because throughout my career in non-profit, for-profit, and government, I focused on the collection of data and how it's used and who has access to it. Particularly when it comes to agencies and government data and how it's shared or monitored or safeguarded from third So, Mr.
▶ 1:11:37Winfrey, I heard that the the proprietary vendor formats make it harder to share data and comply with federal reporting. Can you talk about how federal investment in the transit integrated data exchange specification and the transit operational data standards reduce burden, improve interoperability across systems, and lower costs for agencies and Thank you so much for your question, Ms. DeLaney.
▶ 1:12:08That is extraordinarily complicated and complex and I'm a
▶ 1:12:13So am I. and I was a venable lawyer. I'll be happy to get any information you need from our experts, but I will tell you from a 30,000 foot view, the data challenges are tremendous.
▶ 1:12:26As I mentioned to Representative Fong, in the state of Texas, we've got automated vehicles on our roadways right now, but it's proprietary information and the innovators that are operating on the roadways have no obligation to share data with us, with TxDOT, with our state troopers, or with our Department of Motor Vehicles. So, that's a black box and we don't know what's going on
▶ 1:12:50think that's a problem? That's a huge Well, it's it's a it's an issue and an opportunity that we're missing. Um safety of operation is is where they they need to be imperfect with respect to ensuring that these technologies become implementable on a wide scale and that trickles down to the transit level. We are huge supporters of public transit at the Texas A&M Transportation Institute.
▶ 1:13:17The funding models are upside we believe because it's all about ensuring that Americans can get from point A to point B. We need to have availability of choice, we're not obviously averse to that, but ensuring that those with the least amount of means have the ability to get to those centers, whether it's food deserts that they can relieve themselves from or employment centers. We need to be facilitating that.
▶ 1:13:43Thank you and I'll follow up with you on that. Dr. Liu, your team released the Mcity digital twin as an open source project as a public good, but many competing digital twin platforms are proprietary. If a state DOT builds out its AI traffic management around this, it could be blocked in the single vendor ecosystem. What role should federally funded research play in ensuring digital infrastructure remains interoperable and publicly accountable? Thank you for that question.
▶ 1:14:11I think the open source digital twin is particularly important and everybody understand the digital twin itself is very it take a long time to build. Um but it's it's critical to evaluate different type of technologies and before they they can be deployed on our rural on the roadways.
▶ 1:14:29And so with the open source digital twin, then they this will open up the opportunity for not only for academic researchers, but also for private private companies to really utilize this this resource to um um evaluate their algorithms and things like that. And one of the other thing I want to mention, Mcity has a physical infrastructure as well, right? So, it's not only just the digital twin, also has the physical infrastructure.
▶ 1:14:58So, I can help the researchers to look at also how the fidelity of digital twin and also the the the result from this this evaluation. So, having this such test bed not only include the physical infrastructure, but also the digital infrastructure is particularly important for for the research and technology development. Excellent. Um Dr. Liu, I'll follow up with some questions for the record, but I thank you and I yield back. Thank you. Gentlewoman Neals back.
▶ 1:15:26We'll hear next from the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Foster. You're recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair and our witnesses. Just a quick question on the last point. Are these being integrated into the What what is the big project? Genesis project where there's an attempt in led by the Department of Energy to get all of the federally accessible databases in one standard to access way? No, this is this is not right now.
▶ 1:15:52This project in particular related with Mcity digital twin was supported by National Science Foundation, the Mcity 2.0 project. Okay, which is also in at least intended to be incorporated. It just strikes me this is a generally useful data set for a number of purposes and then it I certainly agree. Yeah. Um okay, one thing I've been well, everyone's been worried about for a while is cybersecurity in all of these.
▶ 1:16:17You know, there was I guess probably 10 years ago where Tesla one of the Chinese I think it was was it Tencent or Alibaba some researchers they're hacked a Tes- hacked a Tesla and then found out they could do anything you wanted including potentially kill the occupant or other fun stuff. And so so Tesla rapidly made it so it could not be jailbroken.
▶ 1:16:38That's sort of the difference between a Windows machine and an and an iOS And these uh And and the problem that we have is that we have we have this wonderful agency NIST that defines all the standards for supply chain security and cybersecurity and everything else, but they don't call balls and strikes on specific projects. And it struck me for a while that that's an agency we need.
▶ 1:17:05We need to have someone who actually is a regulatory agency says, "Okay, we look at the NIST standards, we look at what you're doing. Your product does not qualify and you can't go on the road or whatever it is." Um we're going to need it's wider than just transportation. You know, this is an issue for like iPhone. If we start using our iPhones for high valued financial transactions and then all of a sudden you find out the key storage is not secure in your iPhone, then that can discredit, you know, the whole operation and and cost people billions of dollars.
▶ 1:17:35So, you know, what is what's the best thinking on how we get this the cybersecurity that we will need and the supply chain security in the chips and everything that goes with that so that we don't have the science fiction disaster of, you know, all the robots turning against us or them being used for assassination, all the stuff that's been written about for decades? So, what what's the status of trying to and anyone take a swing at that?
▶ 1:17:59Well, I think at the very least we need to make sure that we have batteries that are made in the USA, that we don't have Chinese EVs or Chinese vehicles that can be hacked because just as if you buy a GM car and you subscribe to OnStar and it says, "If this car is stolen, let us know, we can disable it or stop it." owns Yeah, they have a kill switch. I mean, there there all sorts of bad things that we need to make sure that those those are kept out and the Chinese batteries don't have the spying components.
▶ 1:18:30I would say that's
▶ 1:18:30Okay, but who what agency is the one that says, "Okay, this model is all right cuz we trust country X and we and this one is not okay because we don't trust country Y" or or if they were less sloppy. You know, it it could be an American company that's just being sloppy.
▶ 1:18:46And and so, you know, it struck me that we actually need an enforcement army, not just NIST to define best Is there been any serious discussion of standing up such an agency to you know, the military has to face this for all kinds of secure systems and so do the best they have is Sandia National Labs is sort of the unofficial expert being used to for military systems, but you know, there's a lot more civilian than military electronics out there.
▶ 1:19:15Unfortunately, I don't have a perfect answer. It's scattered and diffuse. I recall the Department of Commerce entertaining conversations about this. You mentioned the iPhone. It's largely not widely known that your phone iPhone can contact the Russian GPS system GLONASS, right? So, it's cascading effects and it's difficult to pinpoint it to any one particular technology or any one particular arena.
▶ 1:19:44So, there's going to need to be a whole of government approach that sits down and analyzes and then deputizes the proper or creates the proper stand-up organization to address this. But, I recall Department of Commerce tackling this or trying to tackle this about a dozen years ago. Yeah, and this is clearly something where the states do not have the capacity to do this.
▶ 1:20:04It's not even clear that we as a nation have the capacity to look at every piece of consumer electronics that can potentially harm someone and then, you know, and then somehow have some pretty highly paid very expert people look at the software, the firmware, the supply chain history of the silicon and everything that will because, you know, the bad guys are already thinking of exploiting this. Congressman, I'm not a policy expert, but I can comment on some of the technology development related with cybersecurity.
▶ 1:20:33I think cybersecurity in many cases is being considered as a add-on afterwards afterthoughts, but research is really needed to really incorporate security by design and so that is part of this system design that you incorporate security consideration into specifications so that these are has that.
▶ 1:20:56Yeah, and you know And it has to have the power of Congress because if one agency makes a regulation say that we're not going to have Chinese EVs, then in another administration that can be rolled back, but if Congress codifies and makes into a law, all of you decide that this is important, you pass a law, then it can't just ping-pong backwards and forwards between administrations. Yeah, from a foreign point of view, I'm worried more about it costs a lot to do a good job of cybersecurity and and that's a anyway, well, thank you and yield back.
▶ 1:21:26The gentleman yields back. That concludes questions from the subcommittee. I'd like to thank the witnesses for all of your valuable testimony and all of our members for their pertinent questions. The record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions from members. This hearing is now adjourned.