▶ 0:44:58The subcommittee on economic development, public buildings, and emergency management will come to order. I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions. Without objection, so ordered. As a reminder, if members wish to insert a document into the record, please also email it to documents timail.gov.
▶ 0:45:29gov. I now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five I'd like to thank our witness for being here today as we examine the management of federal real estate and how we can reduce costs to the taxpayer. In December, this subcommittee held a hearing on federal real estate to discuss how we could minimize costs and maximize value for the American taxpayer. Since that hearing, GSA administrator at Force was confirmed by the Senate and sworn in.
▶ 0:46:00Today is an opportunity for the subcommittee to hear from the administrator on GSA's plans and priorities for managing its real estate portfolio. Last Congress, significant public building reforms were enacted as part of the Thomas R. Carper Water Resource Development Act of 2024. Those reforms included new requirements and limitations on federal agencies when it comes to their use of space.
▶ 0:46:24For example, the use it act and the full act included in WERA 2024 are intended to hold agencies accountable for their space usage and set a requirement that if agencies do not actually have people physically coming in every day using at least 60% of their space, they will lose it.
▶ 0:46:43It also includes requirements that GSA and other federal agencies report to Congress and the public on the costs associated with unused space and that the Office of Management and Budget submit to Congress a plan to consolidate headquarters buildings in the DC area. As expressed at the last hearing, we are extremely concerned that key deadlines have been missed.
▶ 0:47:07I understand OM is a key key player here, especially in ensuring all agencies, including those who have real estate authorities outside of GSA, are in compliance. But without that data, critical time is being lost. That is why on February 13th, full committee chairman Sam Graves and subcommittee chairman Perry sent a letter to OM and GSA requesting a briefing to update the committee on compliance with the new requirements.
▶ 0:47:34Getting these bipartisan reforms across the finish line under the previous administration was not easy and they represent the most significant checks on federal real estate costs in decades. The reforms also give you as GSC administrator significant leverage over agencies that are resistant to letting go of unneeded space. That is why effective implementation of the reform is so critical.
▶ 0:48:00With that said, we are pleased with some of the progress that GSA has made so far in consolidating agencies and getting rid of excess space, including moving HUD out of the Weaver building, preparing to move USDA out of the Agriculture South building, and DOE out of the Foresto building.
▶ 0:48:19Decisions like these are going to help reduce the massive deferred maintenance liability that has acrewed, which currently has a price tag that ranges anywhere from 26 billion to $340 billion, depending on which report that you read. I don't think the American taxpayer or even federal agencies themselves understand how much of a financial liability federal real estate has become. There's no excuse for agencies to hold on to space just in case or hold on to a building because they've always been there.
▶ 0:48:49With limited funding to properly maintain and operate federal buildings, the deferred maintenance has grown significantly. And that's just to keep the lights on and doesn't account for renovations needed to make them functional for the long term. That is why GSA's work on identifying core assets we may want to keep and non-core assets that should be disposed of is important.
▶ 0:49:11Finally, there are other key topics I hope to hear more on, including the reorganization of the public building service, as well as plans to divest from the heating operations and transmission division, which services steam and chill water for 62 federal and DC federal and DC buildings here in the core of the city. With that, I look forward to hearing from our witness. I now recognize ranking member Stanton for 5 minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:49:36Thank you very much, Madame Chair, for leading this important hearing. Thank you to Administrator Forest for appearing before this committee today. Um I share your concerns about the liability of certain public buildings and I believe that there's a real lack of transparency with the agency uh provided to the American public regarding GSA's role in ISIS's rapid expansion across the United States of America.
▶ 0:49:59I'm deeply concerned by also what is happening outside of your agency uh overview with regard to ICE and ICE facilities. Department of Homeland Security is is on a warehouse buying spree. Across the country, DHS is purchasing dozens of large commercial warehouses to be converted into mass immigration detention facilities. It is doing so entirely by going around GSA, the agency that Congress has explicitly charged with managing federal real estate.
▶ 0:50:29We're not talking about a handful of properties. We're talking about facilities with a combined capacity of up to 80,000 detainees, dozens of properties. These are not purpose-built detention centers designed with appropriate oversight and public input. These are commercial warehouses acquired quickly and quietly, bypassing the procurement process with no no public notice requirements. The consult no consultation with local officials that GSA standard procedures mandate.
▶ 0:50:59One of these warehouses happened to be in my home state of Arizona. Arizonans did not find out about it through any government transparency process. They found out because advocates and journalists were paying attention. DHS did not even notify city officials. And once the community did learn about it, the response was immediate. In less than 48 hours, my office collected more than comments from Arizonans concerned about this proposal.
▶ 0:51:28Hundreds of residents turned out to a local city council meeting. Even my Republican colleague who represents the area, uh, Paul Gosar, he wrote a letter to Christy Gnome in which he he emphasized that DHS must respect the legitimate interests of the communities that bear its local impacts." This kind of response shows exactly why transparency matters.
▶ 0:51:56Communities deserve to know what is being built in their neighborhoods before decisions are already finalized. Administrator Forest, your agency's mission is to construct, manage, and preserve government buildings and to lease and manage commercial real estate on behalf of the federal government. That is your mandate from Congress. So when DHS cuts you out of billions of dollars worth of real estate acquisitions, acquisitions that will fundamentally reshape communities across this country, that is not just a matter of bureaucratic turf.
▶ 0:52:26That is a breakdown of the oversight structure Congress has put into place. And it comes with a real cost. No congressional oversight, no community input, no nothing from school districts, nothing from neighborhood associations. They didn't even notify the local mayor and city council before purchasing this real estate. The American people are being left in the dark.
▶ 0:52:50What's more, at your nomination hearing last October, you said to the Senate that quote, "Rightsizing our federal real estate portfolio was one of your top priorities." I'd like to understand how an agency conducting a shadow warehouse acquisition program entirely outside of your oversight fits in to that vision. And I also like to address what we know GSA has been involved in. GSA has played a significant and largely hidden role in ISIS's buildout across the country over the past several months.
▶ 0:53:20We know that last summer ICE approached your agency with a massive request. Find space for 10,000 immigration enforcement employees across 200 cities nationwide. That single request turned into 249 individual procurements for GSA. Of those, 196 are active. This is not a routine administrative adjustment. That is sweeping, deliberate, and shady expansion of federal immigration enforcement infrastructure. GSA has been at the center of it.
▶ 0:53:48What's more, the manner in which this was carried out raises serious concerns of its own. GSM GSA employees were embedded in the quote ICE surge team to find and expand office locations at speed. ICE explicitly asked GSA to disregard standard lease procurement procedures and GSA has actively hid these lease listings from the public.
▶ 0:54:11The result is hundreds of ICE offices quietly planted in the middle of communities near preschools, elementary schools, houses of worship, medical facilities with residents, none the wiser until it was a fya complete. The American people deserve transparency. My constituents in Arizona deserve to know what is being built in their backyards. And this committee deserves honest answers about how and why the oversight mechanism Congress created are being deliberately circumvented. I look forward to your testimony.
▶ 0:54:39Administrator Fors, I hope today will provide transparency that has been sorely lacking. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.
▶ 0:54:45I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Larsson, for five minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:54:51Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Ranking Member Stanton, for [clears throat] convening this hearing on federal real estate. Administrator Force, thanks for participating in this hearing. Appreciate it. and your first before this committee. Uh I must say it's been a tumultuous uh 14 months for GSA. Staff have been reduced, regional offices shuttered, building sustainability goals eliminated, leases terminated, then reinstated. Buildings have been on and off and on and off.
▶ 0:55:15The disposal lists the president has repeatedly made significant decisions on federal property renovations without consulting and coordinating with legally mandated parties. So admin administrator forest, I certainly want to hear your plan and how you plan to stabilize GSA and to deliver the highest value to the American taxpayer. The administrator uh the administrative office of the courts has long complained about GSA's poor management of federal courouses.
▶ 0:55:41So recently a the AOC transmitted draft legislation to Congress that would grant the judiciary authority to acquire, lease, operate, maintain, construct, and repair courouses with funding obtained directly from Congress. So, I want to hear more. Uh, I look forward to learning more about this request and how it would impact the stability of GSA's federal buildings fund. Administrator, you recently as well signed anou with the defense ministry of Pakistan to renovate the Roosevelt Hotel in New York.
▶ 0:56:09The Roosevelt Hotel, as far as I know, is owned by the Pakistani International Airlines. It is not a property owned by the federal government. I want to hear about theou why the federal government is involved in the redevelopment of a property that is owned by the federal by a foreign government when in fact the role of GSA is to manage and dispose of um federal government owned property.
▶ 0:56:31This doesn't make any sense and I hope that you are able to share any available legal counsel advice that you received uh so that we can better understand the justification the legal justification uh for this uh action. GSA is required to submit to this committee descriptions of proposed construction, renovation, and leasing projects that require funding in excess of established prospectus Previous GSA administrators have requested that Congress raise the prospectus threshold to $10 million and a bill in uh
▶ 0:57:01was introduced in the Senate to do just that. So, if you could share with us as well if you support raising the prospectus threshold, why and to what amount? Finally, um, little close to home for me, find GSA has made great progress on three critical land ports of entry in Blaine, Sumass, and Lynden in my district. Uh, public building service acting commissioner Andrew Heler recently updated me on these projects. I look forward to working with him and the GSA staff to expedite delivery of all three of these LPOE construction projects.
▶ 0:57:32There is bipartisan support in Congress for reducing unnecessary leases and disposing of excess federal property to increase efficiency and save taxpayer dollars. as you heard that from the chair uh and uh chair of the full committee uh sorry chair of the of the of this committee um Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania has been a leader in that. It's an area that we agree on uh and it's great to be able to work uh as a as a committee on bipartisan basis but that support does require consistent communication from GSA.
▶ 0:58:00So, I hope that under your leadership, GSA can provide us some transparency, improve communication with Congress, and perhaps we can avoid uh what we saw in 2025 so that in 2026 and beyond uh we have can have a better relationship with GSA as we move forward to try to get best taxpayer value from the federal uh real estate. With that, I yield back.
▶ 0:58:24I'd now like to welcome our witness, Mr. Force, and thank him for being here today. But before I yield the floor for his testimony, I'd like to take a moment to explain our lighting system. Uh there are three lights in front of you. Green means go, yellow means you're running out of time, and red means please conclude your remarks as soon as possible. I also ask unanimous consent that the witness's full statement be included in the record.
▶ 0:58:48And without objection, so ordered, I ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witness has provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to him in writing. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments information submitted by members or the witness to be included in the record of today's hearing. Without objection, so orders. So as your written testimony has been made part of the record, the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes.
▶ 0:59:18With that, Mr. Forest, you are recognized for five
▶ 0:59:22Thank you very much. Everybody hear me? Okay. Appreciate that. Chair, Ranking Member Stanton, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is Ed Forst, and I began my service as GSA administrator when a local Florida mayor swarm me in on Christmas Eve. Today is my 44th business day in the job, and I'm proud to serve in President Trump's administration for the American people. During my career, I was the CEO of Kushman and Wakefield, the third largest real estate service firm in the country.
▶ 0:59:51And I was also a leader at a premier global investment bank. And here's what I've learned over the last 40 years of working. If we execute with discipline, we do things efficiently, we manage risk, we take care of our people, we will achieve results at the highest level. Today, I'm here to fill you in on GSA's uphill battle to fulfill our mission in real estate excellence.
▶ 1:00:12I've come to realize that both GSA and Congress must forge a new direction and we must hold ourselves jointly accountable to the same standards that we demand from private landlords when we lease space. And you know, we lease 7,000 of them. To move forward, we need two immediate things from Congress. Full access to the federal building fund, and we appreciate this committee support. And we also need prospectus thresholds that reflect realworld costs.
▶ 1:00:41Without these changes, our buildings will continue to deteriorate and taxpayers will ultimately pay more. Since 2011, Congress has diverted almost $16 billion from the federal building fund. Monies that were appropriated to our clients and that were collected by us, adjusted for inflation. That's over $22 billion in lost maintenance spending. We've previously estimated $26 billion in delinquent maintenance across the portfolio.
▶ 1:01:12However, I believe that may meaningfully understate the true liability by tens of billions due to some very simplistic methodology. I have directed this agency to retain independent construction and engineering consultants to catalog each federal property and quantify the real number. And when that assessment is complete, I'll bring those numbers to this subcommittee. It may be eyepopping. The maintenance delinquency is not abstract. A water leak left untreated becomes mold.
▶ 1:01:43A minor repair escalates into a major renovation. It accelerates physical decay, compounds cost, erodess value. It should be unacceptable to all of us. I'd like a minute of showand tell if I can. I've heard from many of our departments about the state of their facilities and how it degrades their ability to perform their mission. I've seen this firsthand. First, we have the Hoover building. That is somebody's office, and we're lucky it was the weekend when this happened. No one should have to risk that.
▶ 1:02:13Then there's a South. The image highlights damage from an ongoing roof leak. Our delinquent maintenance liabilities on that building have approached $1.7 billion. It's our largest liability, and I'm grateful for your support in disposing of the structure.
▶ 1:02:29Last week, alongside USDA Secretary Rollins and Senator Ernst, we began the disposition process to free us from the 1.7 billion and also more than 15 million in annual expenses while we achieve the president's executive order to consolidate. And then finally, I'll show you GSA's own DC headquarters at 1800 F Street. The picture shows a corroded hole in the wall near our elevator shaft on the third floor. Our own headquarters exemplifies this maintenance crisis.
▶ 1:03:00Approximately 40% 40% of our building has been deemed It's a travesty that the agency managing federal real estate cannot properly maintain its own building to execute even the return to work order. This is a money problem. It is not a competency problem. Now this leads to my next point. to fix GSA headquarters and many others. We need our prospectus approved by the full committee and I would ask us all to do this together.
▶ 1:03:31Our real estate portfolio is one of the largest in the federal government. Yet our 3.9 million per project threshold is inferior to our vast needs and it's even inferior to other agencies of the federal government. Congress affords nine million to the Department of War and 30 million to the VA. And I support those agencies with those levels and those efforts. But our sole mission is to go ahead and focus on federal real estate. That's our job.
▶ 1:03:59And this is a misalignment of needs and methods and it makes it impossible for us to do our job and our prospectus threshold must be raised. On my first day, I launched project 410. It's named after the Empire State Building. It was built using 1928 technology in 410 days, 86 stories. It stands as proof that vision, execution, and urgency can overcome bureaucracy. We will use this mindset to transform real estate.
▶ 1:04:29May we please work together, appropriators, and the team at GSA to craft renewed legislative legislative framework that's practical, actionable, and results focused. Our American people deserve a shared better stewardship. Thank you for having me today and I welcome your questions.
▶ 1:04:49Thank you for your testimony. Uh and now we will we will now turn to questions for our witness and I'll now recognize myself for five minutes. Um, so just last week, the judicial conference formally requested that Congress grants the judiciary real property authority to directly manage the 396 cour houses currently operated by the GSA, stating that continuing the status quo is no longer sustainable.
▶ 1:05:18This new proposed authority would also give the judiciary the ability to build or acquire new courouses and property without the GSA. Do you have a response to this proposal and their characterization of the current situation with the GSA?
▶ 1:05:34I do and thank you very much for the question. Um, the judiciary is the largest real estate client of of the GSA in terms of building square footage. I was takenback by the meeting that I had last week. Quite frankly, I believed it was my first relationship meeting with the two justices. One who runs the AOC and then one as a subcommittee chair for real estate. Um, and they did present to me their thoughts that they desired to as a pilot manage 10, I think 10 of their 93 judicial districts.
▶ 1:06:03They left my office. The story was dropped immediately to the Wall Street Journal and they went straight to the Hill to meet with several committees. It was my introduction to joining the bigs at that point. And so I've I've learned from that. Um, it is not how one should work, I think, agency to agency. I do think they are naive. I think they're uninformed. And I think they're illquipped to go ahead and manage this as they suggest. They have a docket to pursue. We are the real estate experts and I think we should keep ourselves separate in that way.
▶ 1:06:33And one can site metrics on every bit of the equation. We don't propose to say how they should manage the docket. I would note that at this point we are at the the all-time high of the amount of time it takes for a civil case to get through trial. 38 months in the federal judicial system. It's the longest in history. It has me dig deeper too about our relationship.
▶ 1:06:55It sparked me to get smarter about the judicial relationship over the last five years because I think any one or two-year period the data can skew but over the last five years they have accounted for 20% of the rent that we accumulate from the rest of the agencies. Yet 46% of our repair expenses have been afforded to the judiciary. 20% of the rent, 5-year average, 46%. That's at the expense of every other agency that we serve.
▶ 1:07:26That doesn't make sense to me, and that won't stand any longer now that I'm focused on it. I've already in my short time visited three Tennessee, New York, and recently Huntsville, Alabama. It's where Senator Shelby and Judge Burke collaborated with us to go ahead and create what is a tremendous neocclassical new courthouse. There were 40 or more judges of all stripes at that at that opening celebration. I spoke at the event, which was my honor.
▶ 1:07:54Neither of the two administrative justices responsible for real estate actually chose to to uh participate in that event. And I'm proud to say we completed the project under budget at a cost of around $690 a square foot. Now, in the judicial pipeline is an annex project for the Puerto Rico I'm going to spend a lot more time on this proposed project because right now the estimate is twice the cost per square foot of Huntsville. Doesn't make sense to me to do that.
▶ 1:08:24And so this misguided process started a week or so ago is actually going to have the GSA in a better place and more razor focused and put everything under the microscope so that we can work together and make sure we spend the taxpayer dollars
▶ 1:08:38All right. Thank you for that answer. So, in your testimony, you discussed launching a project 410 mindset at the GSA to have speed and agility define the GSA's culture. Can you describe your desired outcomes for project 410?
▶ 1:08:52Yeah, and and thank you for the question. And it is not just directed to the PBS or the public building service of which I manage. GSA is several businesses rolled into one. uh project 410. It just enlightened me when I focused on the fact that that 86story building with marble lobbies, elevators, uh survived a plane crash, was completed in 410 days in 1928.
▶ 1:09:17I know things are different, but that is going to be a northstar for the GSA going forward, which is things take as long as we let them, and it's inexcusable. And so we're going to apply that same kind of rigor and discipline and urgency to every single thing that we do.
▶ 1:09:34For example, in terms of perspectuses, and we've talked about the amount per perspectus, but on average for us to get a major RNA project through the various committees, it takes us 436 days to get a prospectus approved. For new construction, 325 days to get a major project of new construction done. leases 244 days through the process. That's to begin the work at that.
▶ 1:10:01And in fact, we have six leases in front of committees that have sat there for over 600 days. So if our northstar is 410 days to build an 86story building, we should be able to move the paperwork and analysis through a heck of a lot a heck of a lot quicker than that.
▶ 1:10:18All right, I'm out of time. Thank you for that. Uh now I now recognize ranking member Stanton.
▶ 1:10:23Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My ears perked up when you suggested that the um judiciary was illquipped to manage real estate particularly at the size and magnitude of the number of buildings that they have. I'm gonna make the same argument about Christy Gnome that she is ill equipped to manage the massive amount of real estate that she is purchasing right now.
▶ 1:10:44Cash money without any notification the neighborhoods without any involvement of you and your agency which is tasked with managing federal uh real estate. The people of my community are angry. They are mad as hell that they have purchased a light industrial warehouse in the middle of a neighborhood right near a school. Nobody knew about it. Not a single phone call to the mayor, the council, the local uh uh school district, the the nearby neighborhood association. No community contact at all.
▶ 1:11:15And they're going to put a uh a detention center the size of seven or eight football fields for 1500 detainees plus staff right in the middle of a neighborhood. I know your agency would not do that. So that raises some important questions as you mentioned someone being ill equipped. What authority does DHS and ICE use to lease these spaces, buy these warehouses across America without GSA? So certain I I very much appreciate the question.
▶ 1:11:44As much as I would like to say we have an aggregated unified real estate mantle. Uh we don't of the office space of the federal government, we manage 40%. There are many different authorities across many different agencies. We have a federative approach in that sense, not a unified approach. Although I would like to see us get to a more unified approach and I believe the president would as well.
▶ 1:12:08I think we're going to bring greater discipline to it, greater intelligence to it and be able to focus and achieve better results in terms of from the
▶ 1:12:15you couldn't do much worse than DHS has done with buying these warehouses across the country for 80,000 detainees without any communication to the local community. I would agree with that. In my community, the city of Surprise was completely caught off guard by DHS's purchase of an industrial warehouse. It does intend to convert a detention facility for up to 1500 individuals.
▶ 1:12:36As head of the agency that oversees federal real estate, does it concern you that a federal agency is purchasing properties that will have a significant community impact without involving GSA?
▶ 1:12:47As I as I was trying to finish up my comment, different agencies, different departments have different authorities around that. There is an executive order the president issued on January 20th at 25 and it went ahead and declared an emergency situation and under that the immigration and customs enforcement agency which needs space was authorized to go ahead and pursue it at at their
▶ 1:13:12Mr. M, let a question. GSA was the agency purchasing the property. Would your agency work with local stakeholders, school districts, neighborhood association, and the city uh work with local stakeholders before making any such purchase of property?
▶ 1:13:28It's very difficult for me to answer the hypothetical around that situation. In different circumstances, different constituencies are considered. But understand uh ranking member, we serve our clients. Our clients determine their needs and we go ahead and provide the specs and try to get that executed to the best of our ability.
▶ 1:13:46How many leases is GSA executing for ICE and how many leases have has ICE undertaken without GSA?
▶ 1:13:55I'm sorry I can't answer that question, but I'll I'll return to you with an
▶ 1:13:59No, I appreciate that. Um, since January of 25, has GSA limited or withheld public notice of new DHS or ICE
▶ 1:14:11Again, sir, I can't answer that question
▶ 1:14:13Has GSA invoked national security justifications to avoid publishing leases for DHS or ICE?
▶ 1:14:21Yes. On September 24th, we received instruction from the agency that under that executive order, we were not to publish certain upcoming lease awards.
▶ 1:14:30Okay. Do you know the reason why
▶ 1:14:33at their determination under their
▶ 1:14:35That is not a GSA determination.
▶ 1:14:38It is not.
▶ 1:14:39Um, according to press reports, DHS and ICE have requested that GSA bypass normal procurement procedures, citing unusual and compelling urgency. Is that
▶ 1:14:52Has DHS or ICE requested that GSA bypass the Competition and Contracting Act?
▶ 1:14:58I I can't answer that specifically, sir. I'll respond to you.
▶ 1:15:02Why was full and open competition of these contracts deemed not needed or not
▶ 1:15:08Again, sir, I'll respond to you in writing. With regard to the ICE surge team to find new office locations for ICE across the United States of America, uh is it common practice to create a quote surge team for a particular
▶ 1:15:24When our agencies, our clients have urgent needs, then it is something that we choose to do to go ahead and provide them the best service in the quickest fashion we can. I think it's good client service. Is there any other agency besides DHS for which GSA has created a quote surge team?
▶ 1:15:42I'm not aware of any at this point in
▶ 1:15:44Okay. Well, I'm out of time, so I will yield back and I look forward to getting written answers to those questions. Thank you, Administrator.
▶ 1:15:51I now recognize full committee ranking member Larson.
▶ 1:15:55Thank you, Chair, Administrator Force. Uh in my opening statement, I mentioned I wanted to ask you about this uhou with the defense ministry of Pakistan. Do I have it accurate that you've signed an MOU with the defense ministry?
▶ 1:16:05Correct. I did.
▶ 1:16:07Um, so this quote uh because we have not seen theou so one uh I want to see theou but this quote is from a reporter in Pakistan um and that's how we got this quote rather than from you all that both participants have mutual interest in renovation operations maintenance and redevelopment of a certain building called Roosevelt. Assuming assuming that's true that you have a mutual interest, the question I have is whether you have a legal authority to do that that GSA has a legal authority to do that.
▶ 1:16:36What is exactly the US government's interest first off in redeveloping this hotel?
▶ 1:16:41Well, I think if you've been to New York, you've seen it's a very uh hotly interested location. the government of Pakistan approached uh special envoy Wickoff with the opportunity to collaborate on that property where they've not had good success thinking it through. Obviously the federal interest is broad and deep across cities like New York City and so this is really a first stage conversation begin to work together to see if there's an opportunity that also benefits the US government from a location standpoint.
▶ 1:17:11Yeah, let me let me go back to the to the legal authority side of things and and as I noted um if you can um I will request that we get information on legal advice you received that says GSA has this authority because from what I can gather this isn't it might be a really great idea for your former employer to do but not for it's not GSA's job to do this. Uh in other words uh I I can give you more work if you want it.
▶ 1:17:39Um, we got plenty of work for GSA to do, but um, I don't need need I don't think you need more work that you don't have authority to do in the first place. Do you have a did you get a legal counsel legal counsel advice on on this?
▶ 1:17:52Wouldn't have signed an MOU without
▶ 1:17:53I wouldn't have signed it either, but yeah. Um, can you share are you able to share that
▶ 1:17:59theou and the and the legal advice with the committee?
▶ 1:18:02Yes, sir.
▶ 1:18:03All right.
▶ 1:18:04We'll respond to you with that. Yeah, please do that because I' sure like to understand um the legal authority. So what does theou then obligate you to do? Obligate GSA to do I don't want to be personal like obligate GSA
▶ 1:18:17or obligate the federal government quite frankly uh it obligates us to do nothing quite frankly obligates us in good faith to work together to see if there is a very good outcome for that particular site. I would not personally get held up with the fact that it had been a hotel. It could be anything upon redevelopment. It could be things that are quite interesting to the federal government.
▶ 1:18:38Yeah. But but why
▶ 1:18:39we we are in the business of actually building structures as well.
▶ 1:18:42But why but why but why GSA? Like ser seriously not again not to bring up your your previous employer. There are plenty of companies that do this.
▶ 1:18:51Uh you know I I guess we could have turned it over to the judiciary.
▶ 1:18:56Fine. I whatever like they also would not have the authority to do and they would have questions about that too. I believe special envoy Wickoff and the federal government believe that since we are the principal organization charged with federal real estate that we would be in a good position since we we buy we build we renovate uh and we turn over
▶ 1:19:15But this is not So are you planning to buy this property in order to renovate
▶ 1:19:19The theou is has no obligations whatsoever. It is as much of a one-way option as I think you could probably
▶ 1:19:26Yeah. Okay. I'm not trying to be too harsh here. It just doesn't seem like like the original sin, if you will, is in fact that you don't have this authority to do anyway. Now, you may your job is as you describe it. That's true for federal property to build, construct, and manage federal property and to dispose of it as well. And I just don't see where this fits in at all. I mean, why doesn't Pakistan's GSA do this? They own the property or the Pakistan International Airlines owns it. So, um, all right.
▶ 1:19:55We're going to, uh, follow up with you. Appreciate that. Yes, sir. Um onto a a more pleasant topic. Um on the prospectus limits bill in the Senate, can you provide us some insight on your thoughts on that on that particular bill?
▶ 1:20:08You know, we we talked about some of the limits here. There's other agencies with more significant limits than what I talked about. None of them are in the real estate business. And so I hope we can agree 3 point I think it's 3.96 million today. Whether it's 10,
▶ 1:20:24I think the number quite frankly should be more dramatic. These are not uh issues that should require a lot of debate. If we want to replace a boiler, a roof, an elevator is about $1.1 million a pop to go ahead. When you build a building, those [clears throat] elevators are all of the identical vintage. They tend to go at the same time. And so if you have three or more elevators, we can't actually just jump in and replace those.
▶ 1:20:49So we may wait 436 days for prospectus approval while they're entraments. I get a daily email whenever there's an enttrapment anywhere in the United States. Now, I wanted to be very focused. We managed 4,400 elevators and escalators. It is a problem. It's an embedded problem. I would think everybody should want us. If you have confidence in us is the real estate arm of the federal government. Then let us go fix these things when they happen.
▶ 1:21:16There is a geometric progression to the problems when we don't address them early. And so that's the prospectus issue and I would candidly argue for a much more significant number than what people have talked about. Um again it can be defined according to the category of work that we want to do that I think all of us should agree is uncontroversial but if we could take hundreds and hundreds of days out of this we would take hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of problems down the road off the table.
▶ 1:21:46Yeah. Thanks. Um I'm done with the first round but I hope we have a second round opportunity. chair. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:21:51I now represent uh I now recognize Representative Kylie from California.
▶ 1:21:55Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh thank you, Administrator Force for being with us today. I have just uh one uh you know, pretty simple question. Um you know, the FBI is moving into the uh the Reagan building and there's some questions among existing tenants about what's going to happen. Uh one of those is the National CH Children's Museum. Uh you know, they do quite a bit. They do a lot of uh work that dovetales with uh uh some of my priorities on the K12 education subcommittee.
▶ 1:22:18Uh, so just want to know if you had any um information about uh what the plans for the National Children Museum might be with the FBI moving in.
▶ 1:22:26I appreciate the question, sir, and I recognize the the president of the museum sitting behind me was able to say hello before we was started today. Um, I also had a meeting in person with Mayor Bowser this week, and this was a topic that we jointly agreed to discuss and work on together. I've toured the building, I've seen the museum, and we need this is an important thing for us to work on together. um to not in any way abandon uh it and its important mission, but help it gets on to its next
▶ 1:22:53Maybe find a new home. That would be
▶ 1:22:55I'm sorry.
▶ 1:22:56Finding a new home, you mean that would be uh well suited. Is that the idea? Or
▶ 1:23:00I'm sorry again.
▶ 1:23:01Finding a new home for them. Is that what you're saying?
▶ 1:23:04I'm going to
▶ 1:23:06finding a new home for the museum.
▶ 1:23:07Oh, yes. That's that's an important prior I apologize. That's [laughter] an important priority for us. Yes, it is.
▶ 1:23:11Okay. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. I
▶ 1:23:13welcome. I'm sorry I couldn't hear it. I'm happy to yield my time if the uh ranking member wanted more.
▶ 1:23:26Is member Titus on her way?
▶ 1:23:36All right, we're we're going to start another round of of questions. All right. Uh we're going to keep you in the hot seat. So since 2011, the GSA has not had full access to the federal buildings fund. As you know, the FBF was created to fund the operating, maintaining, repair, construction, and acquisition of federal buildings and facilities. The GSA's tenant agencies pay rent to the GSA and that rent goes into the FBF. Unfortunately, the amount of those funds that the GSA can use has been limited each year.
▶ 1:24:07Can you talk a little bit more about how this is impacting your ability to properly maintain federal buildings since we've been talking about concerns about
▶ 1:24:16No. And I I very much appreciate that question and this is a clear and present danger for us to continue on the path that we're on. We're one of the very few self financing agencies. Different elements of Congress provide money to different departments and agencies. They transmit that money in part to us to service the rent on their locations. Two kinds of rent. When we lease space, we collect it. We pass it on to the landlord.
▶ 1:24:45When it's owned real estate, we keep it. And that's what we use to go ahead and service the building and also to provide for the repair and maintenance expenses in that sense. Since 2011, 16 bill almost 16 billion dollars in nominal terms has been taken from that federal building fund set of collections.
▶ 1:25:05When one inflates that under the Turner construction index, which is a commonly used construction inflation tool, that is $22 billion in today's money that could have been spent on repairs and maintenance. It's a astronomical sum of money. It happens to have some parallelism to the $26 billion in our financial statement, which is the underfunded delinquent maintenance. And we changed that term. The accounting term is deferred maintenance.
▶ 1:25:32And in my uh confirmation hearing, I I kind of changed it up a little bit to delinquent maintenance. I think you defer to a point in time. And if you just never get to it, it's delinquent. With our private sector landlords who we pay rent to, we would never stand for leaky roofs, broken elevators, broken curtain wall, windows that that don't function. We wouldn't stand for that. And we would bring very serious pressure to bear.
▶ 1:26:02We don't operate in a symmetrical sense and we should which is we should be good competent landlords to all and stewards to all of the other members of the federal government. But when that billion dollars a year is taken from us aggregating to 22 billion it's not the competency of our team. Our career staff are world class.
▶ 1:26:22What they don't have is access to the capital that they were entitled to have that Congress intended for them to have on the one hand by providing it to agencies but on the other hand taking it back.
▶ 1:26:33So, let me just ask one more follow-up question. How how's the impact been to your tenants?
▶ 1:26:38How's it impact our tenants?
▶ 1:26:40A I showed you a little bit of the show and tell um here's a piece of Hoover concrete that fell down um as well, which I'm happy to leave with everybody. It's hurting their ability to prosecute their missions. When you can't when you get stuck in an elevator and the VA I I had a terrific meeting with the secretary that happens quite frequently in their headquarters building that is disruptive and by the way it creates some fears on the part of the population.
▶ 1:27:09We should just go ahead and get the right thing done. We got to start today. We then have to keep things going and then we got to work the backlog problem. Our focus on disposing of real estate though right now like with A South, we're focused on those buildings that have insurmountable amounts of repair work that need to be done and we just have to call the day and turn those over to private sector or other uses. But we need to shrink to a better core.
▶ 1:27:36One other suggestion I would make uh to follow uh Congressman Larson is when we sell a building, it would be terrific if we were able to go ahead and recycle those proceeds towards renovations. And I think it's the right incentive structure. Shrink, sell, monetize, redeploy the money on the current stock that we choose to keep. I think that self-funding mechanic would also give us a jump start on some of the work that we need to do.
▶ 1:28:04Well, thank you for that. I yield back the balance of my time for questions. Um, and I now recognize the ranking member for five minutes for questions.
▶ 1:28:13Thank you very much. I only have a couple of additional questions for the second round. Uh, according to GSA's leasing desk guide, GSA must consider um planning and economic development goals when making location decisions. Uh we discussed earlier about the ICE surge and the lack of transparency with regard to the location decisions of the hundreds of new locations for ICE offices across the country.
▶ 1:28:43Do you think GSA should be placing federal agency tenants like ICE near critical infrastructure, schools, medical facilities, and houses of worship? serve we we serve our clients and in the case of ICE and I know that's that has been a principal focus of your questions.
▶ 1:29:02We're operating under the authority of an executive order and under the Department of uh uh Homeland Security's interests and needs and determinations and so that's what governs how we prosecute those particular situations.
▶ 1:29:15I respect that answer. Are they asking you then to go against your own guidelines for location decision of offices because of the sensitive nature of what they're asking you to do or are you following your own guidelines in making leasing decisions for ICE offices across this country? A lot of tough decisions have to be distilled to 01 onoff yes no.
▶ 1:29:42And in this particular case, the executive order is clear, the instruction from the cabinet secretary is clear, and we execute according to that mission just as we would for any other agency that has asked us to serve on their behalf.
▶ 1:29:55Okay. I totally respect the request that has come to you to do these leases for ICE essentially in secret, not providing the normal information that you would provide to the public before acquiring or leasing uh space for federal government agencies.
▶ 1:30:13The question though was um by having them by having them ask you to operate the way they are, are they are you in in fact then not following GSA's own leasing guidelines for what I would describe as normal leasing situations?
▶ 1:30:32Sir, I'm just operating under the instructions of the moment with those rules of engagement.
▶ 1:30:37Okay. I appreciate u I appreciate the nature of the question. Can you talk a little bit about PBRB, the public buildings reform board? Uh, how has the PBRB been of assistance to GSA? We know there's a termination date upcoming. Do you think that date should be extended?
▶ 1:30:51So, I I think the gentlemen that serve on the PBRB are seasoned professionals in that space, and I look for help in any direction that we can go ahead and find it. Um, one thing that's important I would say in terms of collaboration with that group and I'd like to see it even better, uh, and that's one of my intentions in my office now is there is tremendous disruption if we pre-announce that a building should be sold when we haven't worked specifically with that agency or department
▶ 1:31:22and in particular its people. We are the House is the Senate is we are we're people-based organizations and it can be quite disruptive and therefore an impediment to going ahead and pursuing some things if we haven't collectively worked. I I am very um optimistic right now about several conversations that we have underway where we will have two agencies combine in the same space.
▶ 1:31:48We've lived in a world of sovereignties where each agency needs its own building, its own fax machine, its own everything. And I'm now quite heartened by the fact that we have three or four possible combinations. One of them in the headquarters building of my agency. We're working with another possible u organization to team with us on that.
▶ 1:32:08But I just I think the pre-announcements can can create some angst and some difficulty and ultimately slow us down in trying to get to the right place. I really appreciate that. I I can't help but note the dichotomy though in your approach that you're concerned about the chaos that would be uh created without doing the appropriate work, without appropriately working with, in this case the agency employees, but seemingly be unconcerned about the chaos in a community when you're moving in something like ICE and ICE
▶ 1:32:39officials. Um, and the fact that you that that this apparently the White House is asking you to hide those leases to not have the same due care for the neighborhood as you're suggested you should have uh in this other process. With that, I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:32:55Thank you.
▶ 1:32:56Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Representative Under for five minutes for questions.
▶ 1:33:02Thank you, Madam Chair. Administrator Frost, thank you for testifying today. It was great to meet you in my office last week.
▶ 1:33:09Thank you, sir.
▶ 1:33:10And thank you for your willingness to take on the challenge of reforming our government's massive re real estate portfolio. Uh the federal government owns or leases thousands of buildings totaling hundreds of millions of square feet and far too much of that space is sitting empty. The GAO has found that many federal buildings operate at roughly a quarter of their capacity and other analyses show occupancy levels averaging around 12%.
▶ 1:33:36At the same time, taxpayers are paying billions of dollars every year to maintain these facilities. That disconnect is unacceptable. Uh if the federal government expects Americans to manage their homes and businesses responsibly, it should hold itself up to the same standard. I believe Congress took an important step with WRA 2024 uh by establishing new occupancy metrics and requiring agencies to report utilization data and return underused office space.
▶ 1:34:05Um, these reforms were intended to help rightsize the federal footprint, reduce unnecessary costs, and better align facilities with the realities of the modern workspace. Um, administrative frost, my bill, the space act, which was passed by the house last year, directs the GSA to collaborate with federal tenant agencies to identify opportunities for shared space and establish measurable goals for collocation.
▶ 1:34:30from your perspective, how could expanding space sharing uh help reduce the federal government's real estate footprint and lower costs for
▶ 1:34:40Thank you very much for the question. I think there's nothing like shining the bright white light on some of these statistics. I think when we will learn a lot in terms of the numbers produced, the metrics behind them, but also what were the questions asked. We may learn there's some other questions we need to ask once we release that. And we commit to the committee that as of March 31st, the committee will have the information. It'll be released on the GSA.gov website as well. So, it'll be there for everybody to take a cold hard look at it.
▶ 1:35:08Um, the impediments to getting some of this hap to happen, I think, are important. Until now, we actually haven't designated a swing space or two. When you want to move an agency out of a
▶ 1:35:22otherwise it's been the perfect match. Do you have this or that? we now have something where we've dedicated a swing space that's going to enable us to go ahead and create the velocity of action that we need here as well. Um I also think in terms of getting agencies to work together towards this as I said we have three or four twinning opportunities in front of us right now.
▶ 1:35:43We've not had those before and I think now that we're making some of those steps and that's why GSA and our perspectus that's in front of of Congress is really important because we're going to bring another agency in with us and I think no one ever wants to go first on some of these things but then once somebody does they see the wisdom of it by the way down the road there may be industrial logic reasons why certain people tenant together and I think that will be a terrific thing to see as an outcome as well. Very good.
▶ 1:36:12Well, you've also highlighted the need to raise the prospectus threshold to allow the GSA to more quickly respond to repair needs at GSA buildings. Uh, this is not a new request from GSA and adjusting the threshold would impact congressional oversight. Um, what are your concerns related to repairs and alterations?
▶ 1:36:35I I I have to say having now met the career staff and work with them and having brought real estate experience of my own to bear, the team is fantastic. I think we should trust the team to do their job. Their job is not to deliver the mail. Their job is not to deliver justice. It's to deliver real estate responsibly. And I feel very good about it. If Congress has seen fit to give other agencies more authorities than us, I don't understand the mismatch and misalignment of that at
▶ 1:37:05Hey, can you provide any examples of relatively minor repair or alteration requests that would exceed the current threshold? That increasing the threshold would result in lower costs and more efficiency. I would say if if we needed to replace three elevators in the building, it's not a big deal when we have 4,400 elevators and escalators, right? That would approach the limit.
▶ 1:37:28Just that that kind of a repair, large boiler system, a complicated roof, $3.9 million today, I don't I don't mean to speak arrogantly about $3.9 million,
▶ 1:37:40but given the size the size of some of these federal buildings,
▶ 1:37:43these buildings are enormous. And if you look at our deferred maintenance liabilities on them, they're gargantuan numbers that we should be embarrassed about, but let's stop the embarrassment. Let's start the action. And we want to team with you on finding a legislative approach that you can be comfortable with that can get us back to business.
▶ 1:38:00Thank you. I yield back,
▶ 1:38:02Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize ranking member for five
▶ 1:38:08Thank you. Um, thanks for a second round as well. So, the GSA has announced its intention to dispose of several properties. um Liberty Loan building, former GSA regional office building building here in DC, other other buildings here in the DC area.
▶ 1:38:22Um [clears throat] the the the challenge is disposing of those also um could flood the market for
▶ 1:38:30Yes. And so how can what's the balance on the disposal timing versus maximizing the redevelopment potential of the site by you know under undermining the value by putting too much out there if you
▶ 1:38:44That's a heck of a commercial question. I really appreciate it.
▶ 1:38:47No, I'm a heck of a guy
▶ 1:38:48and uh and I think in that instance we have to be smart about this. Okay. We have to bring a private sen private sector mentality to how we're going to deal with that. Okay. And by the way, we have a broader set of of possible disposition opportunities than necessarily just the for-profit sector has in that regard. It's also though the use intelligently of commercial brokerage firms. I used to run the third largest in the United States.
▶ 1:39:13There are others and I think it's important how we get their advice about what else is it's not just what we're doing in the market. It's what other people are doing in the market. And if we just live within our shell, we will not have the benefit of that information. So I am very much let's get the right intelligence about the market. Let's plan the timing and the approach well and there could be certain instances where partnering with a private sector organization disposing that way or to other urban-based groups that may have an interest in something.
▶ 1:39:43I think we should be open and flexible about that. But I think we need the intelligence and we don't just run down a path. That's why I'm not a fan of just putting something on a on a website, putting it out there, and uh and having it happen. I think we ought to curate this process to maximize the benefit for the federal taxpayer.
▶ 1:40:01Well, I I think if you watch this committee's response last year to the Doge recommendations, we're also not fans of just putting things up on a website. Um and we were able to get those taken down quickly. And I think there's a danger there for this reason and other reasons as well.
▶ 1:40:15these are not commodity properties,
▶ 1:40:17right? these these are special and they have to be treated as such I think
▶ 1:40:21and on and on that point I know there's a we talked about the USDA egg south headquarters building um but that building itself has unique infrastructure um uh challenges including underground infrastructure connecting other buildings and so on and but they're federal buildings connected to federal buildings and so that that create we just can't you know put that on the market for the private sector and then allow that to be connected to a federal building when we're trying to be sure we're protecting the federal employees in these buildings too.
▶ 1:40:50So you have some unique challenges. Can you discuss that particular one and maybe what the lesson is there?
▶ 1:40:55Well, it's a great point and I'm glad you raised it. The interconnectivity of some of these buildings. I'll just say one thing. GSA is getting out of the utility business. Okay. It's not a good place to be and by having its connectivity today building to building utility structure to building it inherently limits our liquidity in those particular assets. So that's a that's a negative. So we need to go ahead and begin the extraction process and move that way. I think at its peak there were probably 120 or 25 buildings on the HOT system.
▶ 1:41:25I think we're down to 62 right now and we need a path to get down to zero quite frankly. But that's why again you don't just pop the A South building onto a website and say bids bids received for something like that. It is a complicated process. We have to work carefully with those who would be bonafideed, intelligent acquirers of it and see if we can get to the right
▶ 1:41:47Okay. Thanks. Um I want to underscore what the chair said at the beginning. We've done a lot of work here. It was in the carper bill, carper water bill that um uh the use it act some other things. There is a process in place on the for lease space. There is a process through the um PBRB um to uh to dispose of properties.
▶ 1:42:08These are tools that GSA um should use because we told you we should use them and they actually as it turns out pretty well thought out uh and provides a structured system to dispose of property that uh we don't need anymore and by part in a bipartisan way. We agree there's some property we don't need anymore. Uh and and we have outstanding leases at 2,000 coming up 2,000 leases coming up in the next couple years that you've got to decide are we going to reup or not reup.
▶ 1:42:34Um so you got some work ahead of you. That's why, you know, that's I can give you more work. Um, if you want, but you don't need more more work. You got
▶ 1:42:43I have day 44. I feel swamped but energized because I think there are a lot of these problems and I think we share very much where do we want to find ourselves on a durable path post when I when I leave office. But until that time, I'm going to work intensively on on that. I also think in the in the category of leases, they serve a purpose. I'm not negative on leases. I'm negative on the path that we're on, which is let's just do leases because the ownership path doesn't work the way we fund it today.
▶ 1:43:13I don't think that's necessarily sensible. So, let's just get to the common ground, create some symmetry between leasing and owning, and then we can get to the right purpose, the right math, the right longevity, and pick the asset type or pick the financing type, if you will, that we want to pursue.
▶ 1:43:29Great. Thanks. Y back. Appreciate it.
▶ 1:43:31The ranking member yields back. I now recognize Representative Titus for five
▶ 1:43:40Welcome, administrator. I'm change the subject a little bit. During President Trump's first term, uh I was pretty outspoken about him using federal land, real estate to benefit his own uh financial interest. And one of the most egregious examples of that was the um Trump Hotel, turning the old post office into the Trump Hotel.
▶ 1:44:03I introduced a bill called Our Public Buildings Act that would have prohibited uh any president, member of Congress, head of an agency from uh entering into subleasases or out leases rather uh with the GSA. and that now that we did that, we talked about it and it's got caught up in the courts and stuff. We're hearing that President Trump is uh in talks to sell the hotel now.
▶ 1:44:32This is the landmark here in the national capital. It's all rumor and all, but I wonder if you'd comment on if that is happening and who's interested and what kind of talks are going on and what kind of price you're looking at.
▶ 1:44:45what kind of safeguards are there to keep anybody from personally benefiting who's in the White House?
▶ 1:44:51So my limited understanding on that is that the hotel went into bankruptcy and that creditors have gone ahead and they're exercising foreclosure and looking to purchase that property. Um I don't have details on on where that stands right now though.
▶ 1:45:07Well, would that be the role of your agency to oversee that?
▶ 1:45:10I I believe our remaining role in that is just on the land lease, ma'am. has nothing to do with the building.
▶ 1:45:16Okay. Well, when you find the answers to that, could you get back to me?
▶ 1:45:19I surely will. Thank you.
▶ 1:45:21Thank you. Uh, another issue that's come up, of course, is the Kennedy Center. Now, that's been the cultural center of the country for a long time. And, uh, you know, we're very proud of the acts that are there and the center and the people that it draws. And now we're having kind of hearing in horror what the president is planning to do with that.
▶ 1:45:40He fired the board, made himself chairman, stuck his name up on the side of the wall, and then when people started not coming and acts [clears throat] started uh cancelling, he just closed it down and said he's going to remodel it. He's not going to tear it all down, but he's going to do something extensive. Would you tell us what the GSA's role is in that process or what oversight you have or what you know about that?
▶ 1:46:04Congressman, we have no involvement at all in the Kennedy Center.
▶ 1:46:07You think you should? I think I have plenty to do.
▶ 1:46:12Okay. Well, who's overseeing that? If it's not you,
▶ 1:46:14I I I honestly I don't know the structure of the Kennedy Center. I'm
▶ 1:46:19Well, who should I ask that question to then if it's not the GSA?
▶ 1:46:23I I I can't even hazard a guess. I'm
▶ 1:46:27Okay. Well, maybe I can find out since you're not very helpful. My last question, see if we can get any further with this one, has to do with design of federal buildings. Uh there's a directive about from coming out of the White House again about having the fallback position being the neocclassical style I think here in Washington buildings despite the democracy and design act and the longstanding provisions about using the architecture of the region and the latest styles and things
▶ 1:46:58and the question it says in the executive order in the District of Columbia architecture shall be the preferred and default arch architecture for federal public buildings absent exceptional factors necessitating another kind of architecture. Now, most people I know don't want Washington to look like Marago and they're not all that keen on having this as the style that's preferred, but this sounds pretty much like a directive or a mandate to me.
▶ 1:47:27But could you tell us what exceptional factors are that would uh
▶ 1:47:32uh I am sorry Congresswoman I can't I'm happy to follow back that hasn't come to my attention yet.
▶ 1:47:38Um okay so we don't know what the factors are. We don't know who's in charge at the Kennedy Center and you don't have any oversight over the Trump hotel. That's not a very good lineup I don't think. All right. I yield back since I'm not getting any help here.
▶ 1:47:59The gentle lady yields back. Um, from what I understand, the actual chair of the committee of the subcommittee is on his way back.
▶ 1:48:09Uh, and so the subcommittee shall stand in recess subject to his call as soon as he gets back.
▶ 1:48:14Thank you.
▶ 1:48:20You're welcome.
▶ 1:52:59Heat. Heat.
▶ 1:56:31Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency Management will reconvene the previously recessed hearing. Chair now yields himself five minutes for questioning. Uh, thank you, Mr. Forest, and I apologize to everybody in the room for the delay and the continuation. Some of these things are beyond our control. Um, at our last hearing, Mr.
▶ 1:56:54Forest, um, acting commissioner Andrew Heler shared that the release of utilization data mandated by the use it act was delayed by the fall 2025 government shutdown. However, Mr. Heler committed to releasing the finalized data by the end of this month on March 31st. First, as I expressed previously, of course, that is not ideal.
▶ 1:57:19Uh the question is, has GSA made any determination as to whether the data can be provided faster and is GSA at least on track to deliver deliver the data by the 31st? Thank you very very much for the question and consistent with Andrew's testimony to you, we will be delivering that to you and posting it on our website at GSA.gov by March 31st.
▶ 1:57:40Okay. It's good to know and I'm glad for the commitment. Um I I just want to state now that you're here and you're fully enscconced and things. I know you were kind of in the audience the last time. I'm going to request all of the data. um not just the revised data beyond the shutdown. Do you know what I'm saying? I want the data.
▶ 1:58:05It's my understanding that the agencies have been collecting and reporting occupancy data to OM on a bi-weekly basis since last May. I understand there was a period during the shutdown where they have might not have done that. But what I'm telling you is is I want all of the data unredacted, unfiltered, un whatever you unmolested prior to that as well.
▶ 1:58:35And I'm going to just tell you why. I don't want anybody else cooking the books. We want to see it all. We're smart people here. We're the elected officials that are accountable at the end of the day and we want to make appropriate decisions based on all the information, not the cleaned up information. We can give and and be fair about it. We can give um latitude so to speak for things like a shutdown where employees may not have come to work.
▶ 1:59:04Understandably so. But what we're not going to allow is is that that period of time to be used to modify the data to make things look better. Right? So, we've got a job to do here. And it was a hard-fought victory at 60% occupancy, which is 10 points above half, right?
▶ 1:59:26which quite honestly, look, you're in Congress, you make um you make concessions where you have to to move the ball forward, and 60% is better than zero, what which is what we were getting before, right? But it's certainly not optimal, and if an agency can't fill its uh its facility at that point, like we would need to know that we're going to take some action, right? That that's the point of all of this. And I look, Mr. forced.
▶ 1:59:53I know you know this, but I'm telling you now in front of God and the whole world, that's what we want. And and let me just add one other thing. I'm so happy that I've had time to think about this while I was at the other place. There has been uh accusations, so to speak, from one person, one agency or another that so- and so's not giving me the information. So and so agency's not giving me the information. Okay, fair. Maybe they're not for whatever reason. Maybe they're sick. Maybe it's unavailable.
▶ 2:00:22Maybe it's in forran and they got cobalt or whatever. I don't know. But here's what I do want to know. If you can't provide that information, if you can't provide that information, you better darn well find out why it's not being given to you. And I want the name of who's not giving it to you because we're going to run it down. We're not going to have any of this. Oh, he and she and this agency and that agency. And I don't want just the agency because there's a bunch of them involved here. a couple in particular.
▶ 2:00:52I want to know the name because I'll call them up because we're going to get to the bottom of it. Okay? We're going to get the information. It's not going to be career bureaucrats that are trying to live out this administration or that are in this administration that are trying to punish the last one or the next one. We're not dealing with any of that. We want the information unencumbered, unmolested, and then we'll figure it out from there. And we're not going to take no for an answer. Okay? So, just so you know what the terms of the circumstances are. All right.
▶ 2:01:21Have I probably Oh, we'll look at that. I just about used up my time. One more question.
▶ 2:01:28The steam slash chilling plant that services 60some odd buildings. Yes sir.
▶ 2:01:34In Washington DC.
▶ 2:01:36Tell me about the plan for that.
▶ 2:01:38We I think when it was built in I think 1934 I think it was the best of intentions to service at that time 128 buildings in a unified federal GSA, the federal government should not be in the utility business in this kind of a way. So it services I think 62 buildings today and it's our belief and it's going to be our process to find the extraction from that. We now have two to nine shutdowns a year because of its age and its maintenance characteristics.
▶ 2:02:08It serves these buildings. It's important to those buildings. We have to find an off-ramp for all of them. It also prevents better liquidity in terms of selling real estate when they're tied to this. And so,
▶ 2:02:20wait, when you mean if they're untethered to it,
▶ 2:02:23we need to untether. It's going to be easier to go ahead and find another buyer for those buildings than if they maintain that kind of coexistence. And so, our approach is going to be to go ahead and to withdraw from it.
▶ 2:02:36Have a have a very sensible path to do that. And we're not going to do that again. Can I just want to clarify so I understand a little sir maybe a little slow here when you say we're we're going to kind of devest from but it has to be building by building right each building has to have its own autonomous system at some point you can't just set shut the staff/chill plant down you can't
▶ 2:02:58since these are these are our buildings or related federal government buildings we have to do this carefully but we have to help everybody get to that path and get to that plan. Yes sir. Do do you do you with your indulgence, madame the ranking member, do you have a plan that we could see at some point to to know how that's going to kind of happen?
▶ 2:03:19So today's day 44 of the job I don't I don't have a plan yet, but we'll have the makings.
▶ 2:03:25It'd be I think it'd be good for us to kind of see that there's some kind of messages of an architecture that this is how this could happen so that we can get there. Otherwise, it's going to be, I think, by fits and starts and and individual circumstances that are going to be difficult. If we have a plan, it might not survive first contact, but at least we got something we can adjust from and get there. All right.
▶ 2:03:47I appreciate your skepticism.
▶ 2:03:48Thank you, sir. All right. I yield the balance. And the chair now recognizes gentle lady from Washington, DC, Delegate Norton.
▶ 2:03:57Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I strongly oppose the Trump administration's plans to move federal agencies outside DC, there are specific federal buildings in DC that should be disposed of.
▶ 2:04:13These disposals would save the federal government money, generate tax revenues for DC, increase housing supply, and lead to new mixed use neighborhoods such as occurred in the Navyyard.
▶ 2:04:32However, the General Services Administration does not appear to have a plan for disposing of federal buildings in DC that maximizes sale prices and drives economic development. Instead, it is selling federal selling federal buildings in southwest DC [clears throat] on a peacemeal ad hope basis.
▶ 2:04:58Administrative Forest, does the General Services Administration have a plan to dispose of federal buildings in DC that maximizes sale prices and drives economic development? And if so, what is it?
▶ 2:05:17So, uh, thank you very much for the question, Congresswoman, and thank you for your 35 years of service in Congress. Um, I had a meeting this week with Mayor Bowser actually to engage her in some of these conversations as well, so that I'm fully aware of the interest and the needs of the community, but also our responsibility of the federal taxpayer to maximize the outcome for these buildings. And one of those measurements of maximizing outcome is the dollars received for that real estate.
▶ 2:05:45We do not have a grand plan for the disposition at this point. We are looking at buildings that are not needed and we're trying to be more expeditious about realizing return on those and moving the people out of underutilized real estate into areas collaborating together so we have more density of usage because that's an intelligent design as well. And so the mayor and I talked about ways that we could engage with some of the uh private sector community to go and explore other options and redevelopment opportunities.
▶ 2:06:16I am though uh very focused on the urgency and urgency measured by time as well on this and so that we have to bring to the equation. So there's dollars, there's time, there's progress, there's bringing agencies to work together in common space which then will result I believe in some industrial logic. When agencies agree to be together, they may choose to work together in ways they hadn't thought about already. So I believe there's some excellent things that we can accomplish that way.
▶ 2:06:46I'm in the early learning curve though about the community and about some of the ways and the degrees of freedom we have to realize upon a shared mission that we have with you.
▶ 2:06:57Thank you. Uh the Department of Homeland Security recently began demolishing historic buildings on the St. Elizabeth West campus in DC. administrative uh force. Why are these buildings being now after all these years? What is the federal government's authority to demolish these buildings?
▶ 2:07:25And what measures are being taken to pro protect employees and the surrounding community from health hazards during demolition?
▶ 2:07:36I very much appreciate the question. Um, the Secretary of Homeland Security gave us an emergency declaration to act upon these buildings. That did not mean though that we just immediately brought bulldozers in to conduct the work. We went ahead and we gave formal notice to the National Trust. We gave formal notice to the DC Preservation Commission. And after those notices, we also hired a very reputable firm that we have used for construction and demolition in the past, Clark Construction.
▶ 2:08:04I've met with that firm and they have assured us that their workers are doing this in every regulatory appropriate way with the safety guards that are part of their corporate um practices. So from that standpoint um the work is proceeding.
▶ 2:08:19Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:08:22Thank you. The gentle lady yields back. Are there further questions from any members of the sub subcommittee who have not been recognized? Seeing and hearing none, that concludes our hearing for today. I would like to thank the witness for his testimony. The subcommittee stands adjourned.
▶ 2:08:38Thank you.