▶ 0:12:11Everybody good? The subcommittee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recess at any time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on the adverse effects of Plyler v. Doe. I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. In 1975, Texas took a bold stand against illegal immigration after experiencing the adverse consequences of illegal immigration in its classrooms firsthand.
▶ 0:12:36Recognizing the federal government wasn't doing enough to secure our That same year, Texas passed a law to prevent illegal alien minors from crowding its K-12 public schools, prioritizing American students based on the belief that limited resources should benefit those with legal status, a point underscored by federal inaction.
▶ 0:12:54The law was challenged and eventually made its way to the Supreme Court in where five Supreme Court justices declared that Texas and every state in the union is constitutionally required to offer free public education to illegal alien minors. The case was called Plyler v. Doe. It's time for it to go.
▶ 0:13:14Without even a head fake towards the original meaning of the 14th Amendment or the court's equal protection clause case law, the Plyler majority held that American citizens must subsidize the education of minors who are in our country illegally. At the outset, Plyler is constitutionally indefensible, having no basis in law or even common sense. The court's majority relied on two key premises. First, that illegal alien minors are not responsible for their immigration status, and second, that mandatory free education for illegal aliens does not burden states.
▶ 0:13:45The court referenced the equal protection clause, a provision in the 14th Amendment that prohibits states from denying any person within their jurisdiction the equal protection of the The five-justice majority set aside every conventional tool of constitutional interpretation and simply wished a new right into existence by legislating from the bench using the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment as justification.
▶ 0:14:05It is absurd to claim that the drafters of the 14th Amendment understood it to guarantee public benefits to individuals who have no right to be in the country and whose very presence is a violation of American law. Plyler gets the constitutional basics wrong about what constitutes a right under the equal protection clause. The 14th Amendment states that no state shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within his jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
▶ 0:14:34By definition, illegal aliens, including those who are minors, are trespassers to the nation, as they entered or overstayed without the consent of the American people, which makes them persons outside of the jurisdiction of the United States. Immigration, legal or illegal, is not a fundamental right. Congress establishes which aliens, how many of which, under what circumstances, if any, are allowed to enter and determines what they are entitled to once they are within our borders.
▶ 0:14:59Similarly, accessing public education is not a fundamental right explicitly or implicitly guaranteed by the Constitution under the equal protection In other words, the Supreme Court majority in Plyler based part of its ruling on a misguided premise that unchecked immigration and education somehow mandated by the 14th Amendment.
▶ 0:15:17Just as important, the court's majority claimed that the number of illegal aliens in public schools in Texas was and that there was no evidence in the record suggesting that illegal entrants impose any significant burden on the state's economy. That premise fails on two fronts. First, any amount of illegal immigration in our hospitals, jails, schools, or elsewhere should not be tolerated and definitely represents a significant burden on taxpayers, and second, states should have the ability to curb it.
▶ 0:15:45Texas' experience with the negative impacts of illegal immigration in its classrooms since the 1970s requiring state funds from law-abiding residents exemplifies why states should have legislative options to address these Moreover, and fundamental to the issue at hand, the facts surrounding illegal immigration to Texas and nationwide have worsened since 1982.
▶ 0:16:04For starters, our nation's illegal alien population was roughly around 3 million in 1982 has skyrocketed to an estimated 15 to 20 million last year, meaning we have five times the number of illegal aliens we had 40 years ago. As of 2025, Texas has had more than 2.7 million illegal aliens residing across the state draining public resources and services. So, what's to blame for this surge of immigration lawbreakers?
▶ 0:16:30Up until President Trump returned to office, the federal government had refused to take seriously its most basic responsibility of securing our borders. The federal government has also issued more amnesties both at the congressional and executive branch levels that have shielded millions from deportation, incentivizing more of the same lawless behavior. At the state level, we've seen localities issue more magnets that attract illegal immigration, not fewer, such as offering taxpayer-subsidized benefits to illegal aliens.
▶ 0:16:56More recently, we've had activist judges strike down legally sound policies aimed at putting Americans first. By any objective measure, the America we live in today, with an exponentially growing significant burden on local resources and failed federal immigration policies, demonstrates that the effects of the Plyler decision have become worse since To add to the problem of illegal aliens in our schools, we've been met with unaccompanied alien minors who have traveled across the globe due to failed policies under the previous administration and under other Democratic
▶ 0:17:26regimes our border to be released into the interior thanks to exploited laws. Over the last decade more than 700,000 unaccompanied minors have crossed the border illegally, which by the way endangers the children in addition to providing a burden on our schools and on our systems in the state of Texas. American taxpayers provide free public education to every single UAC enrolled in a public school.
▶ 0:17:48And I can tell you firsthand in Texas the burden that is placed on the people of Texas, the taxpayers of Texas, our local jurisdictions because of these failed policies and because of a Supreme Court ruling that we have no business continuing to operate under. In Cleveland, Texas ISD where once 40% of its 3,500 students were Hispanic, today 90% of its 10,800 students are Hispanic, many of whom do not speak English.
▶ 0:18:13This has led district to hire foreign-born teachers through specialist work visas to teach ESL classes to immigrant students. Student enrollment in Cleveland ISD is set to double this year with a projected price tag of $1.2 billion over the next decade. A public school in Houston, named Las Americas Newcomer Middle School, uh started a semester with 150 immigrant and refugee students and the following year was 325. Principal Maria Moreno said of the situation, "It's put a burden on me because I've run out of space. I can't handle them.
▶ 0:18:44They're going next door to another school." Since 2015 over 98,000 unaccompanied alien children have been released to sponsors in Texas, more adding more illegal alien minors to our Based on Texas average per pupil spending of $13,900, just one year of public education of these alien children cost Texans $1.3 Nationwide the cost to help alien uh school children, legal immigrant minors and refugees learn English through limited English proficiency programs in American
▶ 0:19:14schools is $78 billion annually according to a 2022 study. All the while the American taxpayers left with the bill to pay for the education. The financial cost of Plyler are undoubtedly staggering, clearly representing a significant burden on localities, but it isn't just fiscal costs we should be worried about. Our nation's classrooms routinely deal with illegal alien students, many of whom know little to no English and may struggle with other learning disabilities. For example, a 2017 study by the Annie E.
▶ 0:19:43Casey Foundation revealed that immigrant children, legal or illegal, had lower reading and math proficiency scores compared to their American-born classmates. The study found that among fourth-grade children from immigrant families, only 8% scored at or above the proficiency level. In math, proficiency rates are even worse.
▶ 0:20:00Such data should prompt a broader discussion about the demands placed on schools and educators who must use limited resources meant for American students by American taxpayers to help immigrant children achieve proficiency In the small community of Charleroi, Pennsylvania, did I pronounce that right? Sure. An influx of illegal well, I you know, it's Pennsylvania, so it's closer than than it is to to Austin. An influx of illegal alien Haitians led to a complete disruption of the educational environment.
▶ 0:20:28In In the 2021 school year alone, the number of non-English speaking students skyrocketed from 12 to 220 in a district of only 1,450 students. Teachers had to pause in the middle of lessons to translate using phone apps, leaving one wondering if she was hindering the learning of American students. Today, this small industrial town spends $400,000 annually on five staff members dedicated to non-English speaking aliens.
▶ 0:20:52Similarly, in a single year, Maryland saw more than 2,200 unaccompanied minors arrive, posing burdens on the school administrators. In Miami-Dade County, in public schools reporting spending $1,959 more per child for immigrant children and relying on community partnerships. I could go on with examples of this absurdity across the country.
▶ 0:21:13Ironically, writing for the majority opinion for Plyler, Justice Brennan wrote that such policies allowing illegal aliens access to public schools could likely lead to, quote, the creation and perpetuation of a subclass of illiterates within our boundaries, surely adding to the problems and costs of unemployment, welfare, and crime. Fast forward 40 years, the American students, teachers, and taxpayers are living with the unmitigated consequences of that ruling.
▶ 0:21:36State governments and Congress have restricted illegal aliens from accessing SNAP, Medicaid, in-state tuition, among other benefits in the past. It can certainly deny access to their public classrooms. Unelected federal judges should not interfere with rulings based on personal policy preferences not rooted in the In fact, my legislation, H.R. 6225, the PAUSE Act, would freeze immigration until the federal government fixes long-standing illegal immigration problems ranging from birthright citizenship to issues such as the one we're discussing today under Plyler v.
▶ 0:22:07It's time we meet the moment to overturn Plyler v. Doe. It's time for Congress and the courts to address the glaring failures of this court decision and finally alleviate Texans and Americans alike from this burden. And with that, I will recognize the ranking member for her opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 50 years ago, Texas passed a law seeking to ban children who were not legally admitted to the country from our public schools and to defund their education.
▶ 0:22:35The state argued that this ban was necessary to preserve its resources for educating its lawful residents and argued that these children were not persons under our Constitution. The Supreme Court disagreed. In 1982, the court struck down the Texas statute in Plyler versus Doe, rejecting the argument that children did not count as persons entitled to equal protection under the 14th Amendment.
▶ 0:23:04The court also found Texas' economic arguments to be unconvincing and the exclusion of undocumented children from public schools and unlikely and ineffective way to achieve the true underlying objective of addressing and ultimately repelling an influx of undocumented immigrants.
▶ 0:23:22Even conservative Chief Justice Burger, while rejecting the majority's reasoning, wrote, "It is senseless for an enlightened society to deprive any children, including illegal aliens, of an elementary education." And quote, and agreed that quote, "It would be folly and wrong to tolerate creation of a segment of society made up of illiterate persons." He also noted that quote, "The long-range cost of excluding any children from our public schools may well
▶ 0:23:52outweigh the costs of educating them." End quote. For a generation, the issue was deemed settled, but bigotry and bad ideas die Now, at the urging of the Trump White House, the authors of Project 2025 and their allies, Texas and a few other states, seek once again to enshrine bigotry and bad ideas into law. To do so, they've mounted a coordinated effort to overturn Plyler versus Doe, making the same arguments that the court previously rejected.
▶ 0:24:21But if anything, the intervening years have put to rest the argument that the public education of undocumented children imposes a net economic burden upon the states or somehow harms public education and services offered to lawful In fact, the overwhelming majority of credible studies from both conservative and mainstream entities, including the Congressional Budget Office, have consistently found that the net economic impact of immigration is overwhelmingly positive.
▶ 0:24:52Most recently, the Congressional Budget Office issued a finding that immigrants, including undocumented immigrants, generated a trillion, that's trillion with a T, fiscal surplus over the last 20 years.
▶ 0:25:08When one compares the tax contributions of those immigrants to the limited, very limited, public benefits that they consume, even in Texas, the purported subject of this hearing, the net fiscal impact of immigration during the 40-year Plyler period, including the cost of public education, has a net of 93 billion dollars to the benefit of the In addition, we now have decades of data showing the public health,
▶ 0:25:39developmental, civic, humanitarian, and social impact of providing public education to immigrant children regardless of their legal status. No matter the rhetoric coming from the other side of the aisle, the fact is that our Republican colleagues have brought us here today to advocate for kicking kids out of school.
▶ 0:25:58Reversing Plyler versus Doe would mean that children as young as kindergarten and through high school would be denied a basic education, left out of society, and held back from reaching their potential and meaning meaningfully contributing to America. This isn't just terrible education policy. It's extremely harmful to vulnerable children.
▶ 0:26:19It's also bad for our country's health, workforce, and The Supreme Court's decision in Plyler versus Doe guaranteed equal access to free public K-12 education for all children living in the United States regardless of their immigration status. The court recognized in Plyler that education provides the basic tools by which individuals might lead economically productive lives to the benefit of us all.
▶ 0:26:46And in the 44 years since the children who've benefited from these protections, including some who have since become citizens and legal permanent residents have grown up to contribute immensely to our country. A report by fwd.us found that Plyler beneficiaries have driven economic growth by paying over 633 billion more in state and local taxes than their public education's cost.
▶ 0:27:13Preventing over 700,000 US citizen children from falling into poverty, increasing GDP by 2.71 trillion over their lifetimes. These are again the accomplishments of the Plyler beneficiaries. They've strengthened the workforce with over 1 million people filling US jobs and they've reduced healthcare costs by at least 28 billion dollars since 1982.
▶ 0:27:38Additionally, other students have found that having immigrant children in K-12 classrooms improved the academic outcomes for their US-born classmates, lifting up entire communities. Public schools are a crucial part of our social fabric.
▶ 0:27:53They're places where kids can learn, make friends, dream about their futures, and develop the skills they need to contribute to those futures and our Robbing some children of that foundation would wind up hurting all children and America as a whole. It's a cruel attempt to senselessly public punish undocumented children for their parents' decisions, choices they had no role in.
▶ 0:28:18And it's all based on a false assertion that giving undocumented children a public education is a burden on taxpayers. It bears dangerous similarity to other attempts to exclude children, including children with disabilities, from public education.
▶ 0:28:34According to a June 2025 analysis from Niskanen Center, the tax revenue from undocumented workers alone covers the annual cost of educating undocumented Of course, the effort is part of an ill-conceived effort to end immigration to this country, a country that is famously one formed by immigrants.
▶ 0:28:55But, it's also part of a larger war on children being prosecuted by this White A right-wing effort to kick kids out of school is just another facet in the ongoing war that is being waged against American children, particularly the effort to undermine public education. President Trump and congressional Republicans one big ugly bill, ripped healthcare and food away from millions of kids when enacting the biggest cuts to Medicaid, CHIP, and SNAP in our history.
▶ 0:29:25This administration is attempting to undermine and erode vaccine science at a time when measles and other preventable infectious disease outbreaks have killed American children. And Republicans have made callous cuts to childhood cancer research, denying families the hope of a cure.
▶ 0:29:41This administration has decimated the Department of Education, gone after funding for early childhood education programs like Head Start, frozen access to billions of dollars in funding for childcare and family assistance, and cut funding for community violence ICE is now targeting schools, previously protected areas, in its cruel, chaotic mass deportation efforts, leading to plummeting attendance and fear among entire school communities.
▶ 0:30:11Children have been detained in traumatizing conditions and used and used as bait by immigration enforcement agents to lure their Some of us may remember growing up and learning about when in the Bible Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come to me." Rejecting the efforts of his disciples to punish their parents' efforts. But, right now, instead of caring for the little children, our country and its leaders are shamefully turning their backs on those little children.
▶ 0:30:38We must firmly reject a worldview that only certain classes of children, those whose parents can afford to pay, are entitled to the blessings of liberty and the hope of a better future. Our kids are our future, and I want to do all we can to make sure that that future is a bright one for everyone's sake. So, this is not the direction that we need to go back here. It's fundamentally flawed. I yield back. Thank the ranking member.
▶ 0:31:05I believe in the for the sake of time the chairman is going to yield and I will recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the witnesses for being here, and thanks for these wonderful kids in the front row who are keeping me very entertained.
▶ 0:31:19Uh I wanted to start by invoking Tom Paine, who was an undocumented immigrant who came to this land in 1774, 2 years before the revolution, and wrote Common Sense, the pamphlet that ignited the American Revolution. And he said that this land, if it lives up to its ideals and its promise, would become an asylum to humanity.
▶ 0:31:46He said, not an insane asylum, but a place of refuge for people seeking freedom from religious and political, intellectual, and economic persecution from all over the world. Also, in the 18th century, Thomas Jefferson, who was a descendant of a long line of undocumented immigrants both on his mother's side and his father's side to the country, said that education would be central to democratic self-government and to the protection of liberty in our country.
▶ 0:32:15He said that a nation cannot be both ignorant and free. He said it was an In the 20th century, the Supreme Court affirmed that public education is a constitutional commitment in America for all children who are here. In Plyler versus Doe, the court held that denying children access to a public education based on their immigration status would violate the 14th Amendment equal protection clause.
▶ 0:32:44Writing for the majority, Justice found that excluding undocumented children from public education would impose a lifetime of hardship. He said, "Something like what the Constitution calls a taint of blood or a bill of attainder, a hereditary punishment for something over which the child had absolutely no control." Plyler did not place an undue financial burden on America.
▶ 0:33:13Rather, it has paid big dividends for our country. A recent analysis measured the costs and benefits of this decision and found that children who were able to go to school, thanks to Plyler, have contributed to the tune of billions of dollars more in state and local income taxes than the costs of their education. And of course, their classes were going to be happening anyway.
▶ 0:33:40Plyler has strengthened the workforce um by allowing uh 3/4 of adults who got an education thanks to Plyler to work in occupations that require a high school degree. And it's also improved public health by making sure that every child in America gets the appropriate vaccinations.
▶ 0:34:02So, is there anyone who really thinks that America would be stronger as a country if all of the kids who got an education because of Plyler versus Doe had been forced to stay home or to stay in the streets during the day when their parents were working?
▶ 0:34:17in order to distract America from the Iran war, which is now costing between 1 and 2 billion dollars a day, and which has already cost 13 Americans their lives and more than a thousand their lives, including 175 school who perished in a bomb explosion at an all-girls school in order to distract America from the Trump administration's massive cover-up of the Epstein
▶ 0:34:47files and the billion-dollar global trafficking conspiracy of young women, teenage girls, and children, our colleagues want to revisit a 44-year-old Supreme Court decision with the aim of tens of thousands of kids out of their classes and out of their schools. Well, the Trump administration's mass deportation campaign is already succeeding in denying kids, both non-citizens and citizens alike, access to school and education.
▶ 0:35:18In a survey survey of 693 educators across the country, when asked whether federal immigration enforcement efforts were affecting students, 24% reported reduced student attendance at school and increased distraction or disengagement in class.
▶ 0:35:3618% said reduced attendance is leading to declining student performance, of course, and 50% stated that the children in their schools have expressed great anxiety and fear about what's taking place in their communities. The harm is not concentrated solely in the cities most under siege, either.
▶ 0:35:55West of the Twin Cities in Willmar, Minnesota, more than one in four students started missing classes after one student with legal residency was detained and held in custody for several days, and another student who's a US citizen was stopped by ICE outside a district learning The school superintendent said, quote, "Families of our black and brown students feared profiling and family separation, even as legal residents.
▶ 0:36:20White families reported keeping children home due to anxieties about potential armed law enforcement activity taking place inside the schools. And even when kids are showing up, immigration enforcement actions are dramatically affecting academic performance. Using data from a large urban school district in Florida, one of the 10 biggest in the country, researchers found that the recent surge reduced test scores for both US-born and foreign-born Spanish-speaking students, especially in higher poverty areas.
▶ 0:36:50It is hard to study, to learn, to think, to do homework, or to take exams when you are filled with fear and dread and anxiety. This reign of terror is part of the administration's relentless campaign against children right now. In July last year, Trump signed into law his big beautiful bill, which included the largest cuts to Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program, and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, SNAP, in our history.
▶ 0:37:18Over 37 million children rely on Medicaid and CHIP to get health care, and nearly 15 million children rely on SNAP to get adequate nutrition. While denying children access to health care, the administration is also making it harder for kids to stay healthy in the first place. After a confirmed 2,144 measles cases across 44 states in 2025, the US stands to lose its measles-free With this self-inflicted wound administered by Secretary Robert F.
▶ 0:37:48Kennedy Jr., the country is already on track to soar past last year's total measles cases. With more than 1,300 cases across 31 states already confirmed as of March 12th. And of course, Mr. Chairman, Texas has been particularly hard hit.
▶ 0:38:04The Secretary of Health and Human Services fired all 17 members of its Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, which provides recommendations for immunization in the US, and dropped the number of recommended routine childhood vaccines, putting children again at risk of contracting preventable diseases.
▶ 0:38:23The administration has gutted the Department of Education, which ensures nearly 26 million low-income students and 7 and 1/2 million students with disabilities get meaningful access to educational opportunity and has repeatedly threatened funding for Head Start, which provides child care and early education to millions of low-income children every I would urge our colleagues to abandon this determination to make life harder for children in our country
▶ 0:38:53and instead join us in passing policy to deliver for America's kids. Together, we can make the child tax credit permanent instead of making tax cuts permanent for the nation's billionaires. We could expand access to health care and support for nutrition for kids in need. We could protect the Department of Education to make sure kids in America get equal access to a quality education.
▶ 0:39:18We could take action to once and for all address the leading cause of death for children under 18 in the United States, the epidemic of gun violence in our country. For more than a decade now, Americans have strongly supported common-sense gun safety reform to ensure that guns stay out of hands of the people who do the most harm.
▶ 0:39:39Yet, no matter how many children lose their lives to gun violence, our colleagues maintain their oath to the gun lobby and the absolute myth that the Second Amendment prevents reasonable gun safety legislation. It does not. The Democrats on this committee take supporting and protecting every child in America seriously. I hope our colleagues will join us. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank the ranking member. I will remind people this is a hearing on Plyler v.
▶ 0:40:06Now, uh without without objection, all other opening statements will be included in the record. We will now introduce today's witnesses. Ms. Meng, Does uh does the Well, I would just
▶ 0:40:20The The ranking member said, I think his opening sentence was he said Thomas Paine was an illegal immigrant. My understanding was Mr. Paine was born in the UK, came to America, then a British colony in 1774. So, I was just struggling to figure out how he was Oh, I I I didn't say he was an illegal immigrant. I said he was an undocumented immigrant. Just just like Thomas Jefferson's family was. Uh most of our ancestors did not arrive here with documents. Uh okay. Well, I'll Okay. Well, big deal. Okay. Got it.
▶ 0:40:49Well, that that is does appear to be a big deal to people on your side of the aisle cuz you don't want to educate kids because they don't have the right documents. Is Is Is the time of the of Chairman Chairman's going to yield back. Uh and I I would just note that not undocumented because he was within the colonies of England. He was a citizen of England. All right. Without objection, all of their opening statements will be included in the record. We will now introduce today's witnesses. Ms. Mandy Drogin. Ms.
▶ 0:41:15Drogin is a senior fellow with the Government Reform and Oversight Coalition at the Texas Public Policy Foundation. Her work focuses on K through 12 education. She previously worked at the American Federation for Mr. Matt O'Brien. Mr. O'Brien is the Deputy Executive Director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform.
▶ 0:41:34He previously served as an Assistant Chief Immigration Judge, Chief of the National Security Division of US Citizenship and Immigration Services Fraud Detection and National Security Directorate, and in other senior roles in USCIS, ICE, and what was then known as the Immigration and Naturalization Mr. James Rogers. Mr. Rogers is Senior Counsel at the American First Legal Foundation, where he litigates matters involving border security, election integrity, parental rights, and constitutional administrative law.
▶ 0:42:01He previously served as Senior Litigation Counsel in the Arizona Attorney General's Solicitor General's Office. Mr. Thomas Saenz. Mr. Saenz is the President and General Counsel at the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. He previously served as counsel to then Los Angeles Mayor Villaraigosa. We thank our witnesses for appearing today and will begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and raise your right hand?
▶ 0:42:33Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God? Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may be Please note that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in 5 minutes. Ms. Drogan, you may begin and I will remind each of you to turn your microphones on uh before you begin your testimony. Ms.
▶ 0:43:03Drogan, you may begin and you have 5 minutes. Chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify on the adverse effects of Plyler v. Doe and how subsequent federal policy, particularly the Obama administration's "Dear Colleague" letter, has created a contradiction harming students, schools, and communities. Plyler v. Doe held that states cannot deny illegal immigrant children access to public education. Texas has fulfilled that obligation.
▶ 0:43:26Our constitution requires a free public education system and Texas has built one of the nation's most robust accountability systems in the nation. Our A-F accountability system evaluates schools based on standardized test performance, graduation rates, and college readiness indicators. These ratings have real consequences. They can trigger state interventions, leadership changes, campus restructuring, and school closures. In recent years, roughly 16.6% of Texas districts have received a D or F rating.
▶ 0:43:55The ratings drive major policy decisions like student funding and it relies on accurate demographic data. Yet, federal policy prevents states from collecting one key category, the illegal immigration status of K-12 students. FWD.us estimates that approximately 111,000 students in Texas are illegal immigrant children. This restriction does not come directly from Plyler v. Doe.
▶ 0:44:17Instead, it stems largely from a 2011 dear colleague letter issued by the Departments of Justice and Education, which warned that asking immigration status could discourage enrollment and create a chilling effect. The dear colleague letter is agency guidance. It's not law passed by Congress, and it is not required in Plyler or by the Supreme Court. Congress should clarify that it cannot prevent states from collecting necessary data to educate students. Every effective education policy relies on demographic data.
▶ 0:44:45Schools identify student populations to provide targeted support, whether it's for low-income students, English learners, or students with special disabilities. And they track things like race, gender, attendance, discipline, and even parental incarceration. This data is used to identify needs and measure outcomes. It is not used to stigmatize students. It's universally accepted that schools must have it to identify student needs, measure outcomes for the students, the schools, and the entire education system. Yet, illegal immigration status is the one characteristic schools are effectively barred from measuring.
▶ 0:45:16States are asked to address complex challenges while remaining blind to a key factor influencing outcomes. This contradiction undermines the very logic of Plyler itself. If illegal immigrant children face serious disadvantage, as the Court has recognized, schools must be able to identify them in order to provide appropriate supports. Evidence suggests illegal immigrant students face challenges way beyond language barriers, including higher absenteeism, mobility, interrupted schooling, and greater educational needs.
▶ 0:45:41A study in Social Science and Medicine found that 97.4% of Central American and Mexican migrant children experienced at least one traumatic event before entry, and 44% showed psychological or behavioral concerns. Texas medical experts report many require significant mental health support due to sexual and violent trauma experienced during migration. These affect accountability systems and other students as well.
▶ 0:46:07Schools must determine whether performance challenges stem from language barriers, trauma, or interrupted education. But policymakers cannot make cannot answer these questions or on how illegal immigrant students perform as compared to other groups. We see the consequences all across Texas. Campuses receiving failing ratings for five consecutive years face closure, restructuring, and state takeover. Recently, districts such as Fort Worth, Beaumont, Connolly, and Lake Worth ISD have faced such risk after six campuses repeatedly received failing grades.
▶ 0:46:37These campuses share strikingly similar characteristics. Between 80 and 97% of the students come from low-income households compared to 60% statewide. At five of the campuses, 64 to 94 to percent of students are considered at risk of dropping out. A Stanford education researcher, Beth Shuler, explained, "I don't think we want to lose sight of the fact that demographic composition of a school system is the thing that's going to be most predictive of variation in performance and outcomes." End quote.
▶ 0:47:06When schools struggle or close, communities are disrupted, enrollment declines, families move, and local economies suffer. In short, the downstream effects of Plyler v. Doe affect every single student in the state of Texas in the schools and in the community. It's not just the illegal immigrant students.
▶ 0:47:27Congress should require the Department of Education and Justice to issue new guidance clarifying the 2011 Dear Colleague letter can't prevent states from collecting data on illegal immigration or legal immigration status of students. Congress should also pass legislation allowing states to collect immigration status, both legal and illegal.
▶ 0:47:47If states are required to educate illegal immigrant students, they must be allowed to identify the student population status to fully understand and address the adverse effects of Plyler v. Doe. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. Thank you, Ms. Rogan. Mr. O'Brien, you may begin. I remind you to turn your microphone on. Chairman Roy, Ranking Member Scanlon, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
▶ 0:48:15The Supreme Court's decision in Plyler versus Doe rewrote, rather than interpreted, the Equal Protection Clause. By transforming a Texas funding provision into a nationwide mandate, the court required states to provide free K-12 education to children who have no legal right to be in the United States. The majority did not rely on established constitutional doctrine.
▶ 0:48:38Instead, it imported its own policy preferences, particularly concerns about illiteracy and social mobility, and constructed a novel heightened standard of review that the court itself admitted does not ordinarily apply to non-suspect classes or non-fundamental interests.
▶ 0:48:55The result was an act of judicial legislation that intrudes on Congress's plenary authority over immigration, restricts state control over limited educational and imposes heavy fiscal and operational burdens on already struggling school For more than a century, the Supreme Court has consistently recognized that immigration is a uniquely federal domain entrusted to the political branches.
▶ 0:49:21Congress may draw distinctions between citizens, lawful residents, and those here in violation of federal law. Indeed, the court has repeatedly affirmed that Congress has no constitutional obligation to extend public benefits to individuals who lack lawful status. When Texas in 1975 enacted a statute limiting the use of state funds to educate only children legally admitted to the United States, it acted squarely within this constitutional framework.
▶ 0:49:50Nevertheless, the statute was challenged under the 14th Amendment and the Plyler majority ultimately struck it down. Not on legal grounds, but on speculative policy judgments about social equity and long-term socio-economic outcomes. The court acknowledged that illegal aliens are not a suspect class and that education is not a fundamental right.
▶ 0:50:12Yet it proceeded to treat both as if they were, devising a bespoke standard of review applicable only to the facts before it. This approach was inconsistent with precedent, inconsistent with the Constitution's text, and inconsistent with the judiciary's proper role. Under ordinary rational basis review, a state may allocate its resources in any manner reasonably related to a legitimate governmental interest.
▶ 0:50:38But the Plyler court replaced that differential standard with what legal scholars call rational basis with bite, forcing Texas to justify its policy as though a fundamental right were at stake. In doing so, the court substituted its own policy views for those of the legislature and entered an area, immigration policy and resource allocation, where the Constitution explicitly entrusts authority to elected The consequences of the this judicial overreach have been
▶ 0:51:09substantial. Plyler effectively created a federalized unfunded mandate requiring states to provide free K-12 education to all children lacking lawful presence. Today state and local governments collectively spend tens of billions of dollars each year to comply with this mandate, even as many public schools struggle with overcrowding, limited resources, and declining performance.
▶ 0:51:34Estimates indicate that between 1.9 and 2.2 million illegal alien children are now enrolled in America's public schools, many of whom arrive with significant educational needs that require additional staffing, specialized instruction, and expanded support services. These obligations fall squarely on state and local budgets, which already devote more resources to K-12 education than any other expenditure category. In sum, Plyler v.
▶ 0:52:02Doe represents a dramatic departure from constitutional principles, established doctrine, and the proper limits of the judicial role. By elevating policy considerations above legal analysis, the court imposed long-lasting financial and operational burdens on states and localities while undermining democratic accountability.
▶ 0:52:21Rather than upholding the Constitution, Plyler exemplifies the risks of judicial lawmaking and has had enduring negative consequences for both constitutional governance and the effectiveness of the American public Thank you. I look forward to your Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Mr. Rogers, you may begin. Chairman Roy, Ranking Member Scalise, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this invitation. In 1982, the Supreme Court held in Plyler v.
▶ 0:52:49Doe that states must provide free public K-12 education to children illegally present in the United States. That decision was wrong, it should be overruled, and even in the meantime, states are not without tools to address it. Plyler presented the court with a straightforward constitutional question. Under the equal protection clause, courts apply strict scrutiny when a law discriminates against a suspect class, such as based on race or religion, or burdens a fundamental right, such as the right to freedom of speech or religion.
▶ 0:53:18Laws rarely survive strict scrutiny review. For everything else, courts apply rational basis review, which is a permissive standard that laws almost always survive. The standard of review the courts apply usually determines the As Mr. O'Brien acknowledged, the Plyler Plyler majority conceded that the heightened standard of strict scrutiny did not apply. It acknowledged expressly that illegal aliens are not a suspect class and that education is not a fundamental right.
▶ 0:53:43Having made those concessions, the court was legally obligated to apply rational basis review, under which Texas's law would easily have survived. Instead, the majority invented a novel substantial state interest test found nowhere in prior precedent, then used that invented standard to strike the law down. As Chief Justice Burger wrote in dissent, quote, "If ever a court was guilty of an unabashedly result-oriented approach, this case is a prime example." End The decision was a close one, with only five justices in the majority and four justices dissenting.
▶ 0:54:13The dissent's core critique was that the majority had ignored the requirements of the Constitution and was substituting its own policy preferences for those of the Texas legislature. It was trying to address a perceived failure of Congress to deal with illegal immigration, rather than allowing the political branches of government to fulfill their functions. The Constitution, Burger wrote, does not make justices into platonic guardians authorized to strike down law that do not meet the court's standards of desirable social policy.
▶ 0:54:38The dissent also correctly pointed out that it is rational for a state to conclude that it does not have the same responsibility to provide benefits for persons whose very presence in the country is illegal. In Dobbs versus Jackson Women's Health Organization, which overruled Roe versus Wade, the Supreme Court articulated five tests for whether prior precedent should be overruled. Plyler fails everyone. It was egregiously wrong from the start. The majority itself conceded that prior court precedent required that the Texas law be upheld.
▶ 0:55:06Plyler's reasoning is thin, lacking any grounding in constitutional text or history. Its substantial state interest standard is unworkable. No court has coherently defined it in 40 years. It has distorted immigration federalism by chilling legitimate state policy choices, and it implicates no concrete transactional reliance interest of of the kind that the law is designed to Critically, Plyler's own majority acknowledged that undocumented that, quote, "Undocumented status coupled with some articulable federal policy might enhance authority state
▶ 0:55:36authority." End And thus justify the type of policy that the Plyler court had rejected. Congress has since provided exactly that policy. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996, or PRWORA, declared it a compelling government interest to deny public benefits to illegal aliens, and it barred them from federal public benefits. The premise on which Plyler rested thus no longer exists. Some states have started considering adopting laws that would bar illegal alien children from receiving free public education.
▶ 0:56:06They're trying to create a vehicle for the Supreme Court to reconsider Plyler and overturn it. Congress can accelerate reconsideration by enacting legislation explicitly authorizing states to condition to free K-12 enrollment on lawful presence. Even under Plyler, meaningful tools remain. States can condition free public education on residency and then define residency as requiring lawful presence. Plyler bars denial based on immigration status, but a state that conditions enrollment on legal residency raises a fundamentally different question.
▶ 0:56:36States can also require districts to collect and publicly report the fiscal cost of illegal alien enrollment, building the evidentiary record for future litigation. Finally, they can restrict supplemental programs beyond the basic K-12 curriculum and deny in-state post-secondary tuition in compliance with federal law. In conclusion, as Chief Chief Justice Burger wrote in his Plyler dissent, quote, "The Constitution does not provide a cure for every social ill." End quote. The court should correct its 1982 error.
▶ 0:57:04In the meantime, the states and Congress can take action to keep illegal aliens from taking advantage of the generosity of the American taxpayer. Thank you. Mr. Rogers, thank you. Mr. Saenz, you may begin. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 0:57:19Honorable members, my name is Thomas Saenz, and I have been for 17 years now the president and general counsel of MALDEF, the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational I am proud, as the current head of MALDEF, that my predecessors were the legal representatives for the plaintiffs in Plyler versus Doe, the first of a number of cases consolidated and coming before the Supreme Court in 1982. It's important to note that the Plyler versus Doe decision was the product of a conservative Supreme Court.
▶ 0:57:49Indeed, four of the five justices in the majority, including the author of the opinion, William Brennan, were appointed by Republican presidents. In addition, it's important to note that swing justice, if you will, Lewis Powell, has impeccable conservative credentials, and he is clearly the justice whose decision ended up being the decision in Plyler.
▶ 0:58:11He was the fifth But it's also important to note, as not often remembered, that while this court split five to four on the constitutional the court was unanimous in its conclusion that the Texas law struck down was bad public policy.
▶ 0:58:29I say that because Chief Justice Warren Burger, who wrote on behalf of all of the dissenters who joined his opinion in full, including the soon-to-be Chief Justice, conservative William Rehnquist, on behalf of all of them, he stated that this Texas policy was a bad public policy. He called it folly. It's important to keep that in mind as you review the basis of the majority decision in Plyler.
▶ 0:58:53In Plyler, the majority simply applied rational basis, a standard recognized by the Supreme Court previously and all the way up to date, as a basis for evaluating legislation that singles out a particular group of persons for exclusion from a public benefit, in this case, excluding minor children who are undocumented from receiving public education. In applying rational basis, the majority considered a number of factors.
▶ 0:59:21Among them are factors that have clearly not changed in the 44 years since Plyler was decided. First, the fact is, as court noted then, many of the students who are undocumented today and who would be deprived of a basic public education were the Texas law to be revived. Many of those students will remain in the country indefinitely or permanently and will adjust their status to that of either lawful permanent resident or naturalized US citizen.
▶ 0:59:51As such, they will be expected, as Brennan noted, to contribute to our economy, to our society, and to our government. Their ability to do so, if deprived of a basic public education, would be taken away from them. court did recognize that public education is expensive and that's the case today as well.
▶ 1:00:14However, despite that fact, public education is perhaps the government service that receives the highest levels of support throughout the country. Why is that? Because that expense is an investment. It is an investment that pays off. Having these children in school with a basic education, when they become citizens or lawful permanent residents and are contributing to the economy, pays off much more than the cost of the education.
▶ 1:00:40Billions and indeed over time trillions of dollars more into the into government through tax payments, and through immeasurable benefits such as patents, innovations, and improved service throughout the economy. The court also recognized that these children are not responsible for their status in this country. They are minors. We're talking about elementary and secondary school children who came to the country as a result of decisions by their parents. That is still true today.
▶ 1:01:11Despite the slight increase in unaccompanied minors, the fact is the vast, vast majority of undocumented students did not come to the United States on their own. Finally, the court recognized, and I note here that Lewis Powell's concurrence particularly focused on what would happen if the Texas law were implemented. It would leave thousands and thousands of children on the street during the daytime rather than being in school.
▶ 1:01:40Well, the Plyler decision didn't explore that as deeply as it might have. The fact is that eliminating Plyler would threaten the continuance of public Why? Because kids out of school have a tendency to attract their peers to leave school as well. It will start with their siblings as a result of the phenomenon of mixed-status families where older children are undocumented, but younger children are birthright citizens.
▶ 1:02:05It will extend beyond the families to peers, and ultimately, it will be impossible to enforce truancy laws because any child who doesn't want to be in school will know to simply say, "I'm undocumented." Something that any truants officer would be unable to Thank you, Mr. Sines. I now uh recognize my friend from California, Mr. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, a few weeks ago, the president put a very simple proposition to the uh Democrats.
▶ 1:02:36Uh do you believe that the first duty of the federal government is to defend American citizens and not illegal Uh not one of our Democratic colleagues supported that proposition. Not one. And we can plainly see that attitude on full display at this hearing. In fact, in any hearing where the subject presents itself.
▶ 1:02:57You know, I've never understood the um logic of Plyler, which seems to be that uh illegal immigrants are both entitled to taxpayer-paid benefits, but at the same time are subject to deportation. That makes no sense. If they have no right to be here, I don't understand how they have a claim on taxpayer benefits. The other foundation of Plyler seems to be, "Well, don't worry about it. There aren't that many of them. Well, that might have been true in 1973. It's certainly not true today.
▶ 1:03:25It's indisputable that this is diverting billions of dollars of school funds away from educating American citizens and legal residents. Uh in California alone, taxpayers are paying about 3 billion dollars a year for this purpose.
▶ 1:03:39That's 3 billion dollars of education funds that are not reaching American citizens and legal Imagine the outrage from the Democrats if we proposed cutting 3 billion dollars from California's public schools, but that's exactly what their open borders policies have done. Now, we just heard Ms. Scanlon tell us that this is good for students and good for taxpayers.
▶ 1:04:01I wonder if these people ever listen to And I think we're entitled to ask, how have our public schools fared since this the the largest illegal mass migration in history under the Democrats? Are students doing better or worse? Miss uh Drogan, what does the data actually tell So, the data actually tells us when we're hearing numbers of a couple of thousand, that's completely inaccurate.
▶ 1:04:28Even if we're using a left-leaning pro-immigration organization that ranking member uh Scanlon quoted, they say that in Texas alone, there's at least 111,000 students. So, this obviously is billions of dollars.
▶ 1:04:46We can look at the data and um since 2015 with the unoccupied unaccompanied minors that have been released, if we use the TEA PEIMS data that tells us how much we're spending, it's 18,125 dollars per student across the state of Texas on average. Of course, doing English second language and whatnot costs more. But, if we use that number, we can see that we're already approaching 2 billion dollars at 1.78 billion.
▶ 1:05:11We can also use the Huffine Liberty Institute's research that went back over a course of 10 years to see the amount of money that we were spending in Texas, and they found that it's roughly 10% Excuse me, 8% um on illegal immigrant students. According to our data, last year
▶ 1:05:29Somehow this is supposed to be helping our students. I don't understand
▶ 1:05:32It's about 8 billion a year if we use their data, so it's about
▶ 1:05:36first trip to the border, I spoke with a border patrol officer who related a conversation he'd just had with the mother who'd taken her 8-year-old son on the dangerous trip to cross our border illegally. He asked her why she'd expose her child to such And she answered, "Well, to get him a good education and get away from the And the border patrol agent said, "Well, don't you understand those gangs are already here?
▶ 1:06:00And your child will be placed in a classroom where he doesn't understand the language or the culture, and he'll look to those very gangs for his acceptance." Yeah, every day we hear of cases in which illegals with criminal records or gang affiliations are found in our public schools. There's a story in the news today coming out of Fairfax County, just a few miles from here, of a 19-year-old illegal alien from El Salvador who was groping young girls for months before the district took any disciplinary actions. Mr.
▶ 1:06:28O'Brien, have there been any studies of how many illegals with criminal records or criminal activities are in our schools today? I I don't believe so, only because it's virtually impossible to get the relevant data. Uh we conducted studies that indicated that uh illegal aliens commit crimes at a rate anywhere from two to three times higher than citizens and lawful immigrants. So, I would presume
▶ 1:06:54studies presented to our immigration subcommittee on that very point. Uh the Democrats love to claim, "Oh, there's there's there's no higher uh criminal rate among illegals." Well, that is completely belied by the uh by the facts. Um Mr. Rogers, um what makes you think that the Supreme Court's inclined to reverse this decision?
▶ 1:07:15Well, uh the Dobbs decision set out a very clear standard of five factors that can be used to evaluate whether prior precedent was wrongly uh decided and should be uh reevaluated. And uh like I said in my testimony, all five of those factors, Plyler fails all of them. Um and so I think applying the standard that they've set out, Plyler is is is ripe for a
▶ 1:07:36Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. Saenz, uh I want to return to something that the gentleman from California said. Did the Supreme Court say that a family could not be removed from the country if their non-citizen children were in a public school? Or are they still deportable if their if the if the family's not here lawfully?
▶ 1:07:59So, the way children tend to be deported as as I think you know, uh Congressmember, is a parent is deported and has to make a decision whether to take the children with them or to leave them in the custody of someone else. That's the way deportation works for the Plyler class that we're talking about. But it's also important to note, in response to what the member from California said, the undocumented, many of them, have a basis to remain in this country. And if they were actually placed in deportation proceedings, they will have defenses available to them.
▶ 1:08:29And many of them will, through that process, ultimately stay in the country permanently. So, you can't say that all of the
▶ 1:08:34one of those be? You mean if they were seeking asylum, for example, or
▶ 1:08:37No, if if they were to seek some suspension of deportation because of long-standing ties in this country, because of continued connection in this country, yeah, or because they simply have a basis for adjusting relationship to someone else that they didn't have previously or didn't know provided a basis for
▶ 1:08:54But my point is a little bit different, which is that there's nothing in Plyler versus Doe which gives anybody the right to stay in America if they don't already have such a right. You're positing that in some cases they might have such a right, but there's nothing in Plyler versus Doe that changes immigration law.
▶ 1:09:11So, all the Supreme Court said in Plyler versus Doe was as long as this family is in America, the children have a right to be in public school and should not be out on the street or kept at home or what have you. Am I reading that
▶ 1:09:26That's absolutely correct. This is all about students who are here and therefore have to be somewhere during the day, they should be in public school. But the Supreme Court never altered anybody's immigration status.
▶ 1:09:37Not at all. Not at all. Um what's your response to Plyler's critics who are saying that this places a massive fiscal burden on the country? So, it's untrue because you have to look at both sides of the ledger and what we're talking about is an investment that we make in any child who's in public education.
▶ 1:09:59And that is it the payoff comes when they are able to participate in the workforce in many college education-requiring professions and the like. A recent study points out that a large number of the recipients of services under Plyler end up in positions that require a college degree. Beyond that, you have to recognize that these are also taxpayers. These families are taxpayers like their neighbors. Their status does not change the fact that they pay sales taxes, property taxes if they have property, income taxes if there's an income tax.
▶ 1:10:29They're not in the social security system, right? Exactly. They're not eligible, as you know, and as has been pointed out by others on this panel. So, they are paying those taxes from what they are able to earn. Um so, it in ordinary times, if we're not in a time of anti-immigrant hysteria and nativism, people have accepted this for a half a century, right?
▶ 1:10:54Um and it does not seem like a big deal I I I would I would argue Congress member it's not a big deal now for most of the people out in the public. There really are not huge numbers of bills moving forward in our legislatures. Yes, bills get introduced, but when legislators start doing their job and look at what the consequences are of actually attempting to implement a law like the one struck down in Plyler, they realize this is not wise public policy and they tend to back away from it.
▶ 1:11:21So, there's no clamoring to change Plyler versus Doe after 44 years. Yeah. Um you know, in the brief colloquy I had with the chairman at the beginning, we we talked a little bit about my reference to the the first great generation of revolutionary patriots, people like Tom Paine or Thomas Jefferson as undocumented were the descendants of of undocumented people. I didn't think there was anything controversial about that.
▶ 1:11:49I suppose from the perspective of Native Americans who were here long before anybody else, everybody was undocumented at that point. But, have we not had a fluid sense of the border? Now, we need to have actual laws that exist, but this has been part of the law that kids who are here get to go to school here, at least until their family is deported, right? Absolutely. This is as well established as much of immigration law because we didn't actually control our southern border until the middle of the 20th century.
▶ 1:12:19Well, that was Mexico, right, until the 1840s and the 1850s with the annexation, I think it was in 1845 of of Texas and California a little after that. So, um well, what is the the bottom line then? Is all of this really headed to try to get a very right-leaning Supreme Court to overturn Plyler versus Doe? Is that what this is about?
▶ 1:12:45that's the ultimate goal, but there is an impediment which is this is now part of federal immigration policy. Thank you. You're back, Mr. Chairman. I now recognize the gentleman from Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to note that our annual debt has now gone past $39 trillion, and I yield my time to the chairman from Texas. Well, I appreciate my friend from uh notably wearing his debt clock, uh where he's announcing to the world that we are now cracking $39 trillion.
▶ 1:13:14Uh and I would note that uh there are a lot of reasons why, and this is one of them, of my money, uh that we continue to have this fanciful notion that we can just say anybody can come into the United States, and that it doesn't have an impact on our overall budget. And that the idea that it's like somehow, oh, there's this magic economic driver and economic creation of revenue that is offsetting the cost of our government services and programs and welfare and education and crime and hospitals, that somehow that magically pays for itself. It is absolutely insane.
▶ 1:13:45Mr. Sines, there are approximately 2.4 billion children in the world under the age of 18. Can they all come to the United States and be educated? Obviously not, but those who are here have a right
▶ 1:13:58What's the Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, how about a billion? Mr. Sines, how about a billion? Can a billion children around the world come to the United States and get a free education? Obviously not. Okay. How about 500 million? These are matters of capacity of our country, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:14:12It's a matter of the capacity of our
▶ 1:14:1410 million? We're a God-fearing, Jesus-loving people. 10 million people around the world can come here to the United States. So far as I know, this country actually has religious pluralism and respects all religions, so I object to your question in that sense, but I'm not going to give you a number, Mr. Chairman. The simple fact is there are a lot of reasons why we can't do that.
▶ 1:14:32you're not going to give me a number because you're not going to give me a number because you know this is fanciful unicorn nonsense. You know this is unicorn nonsense. Well, you know what? This is an absolute aberration because you know precisely what's going on. You think that you can make policy via the court, that you can somehow establish that there's the right to come here to the United States to get a free education, but when posed with the question, how many people can come here, you know there's not an answer. Because right now the people of Texas are the ones left holding the bag.
▶ 1:15:02Ms.
▶ 1:15:03That's false, Mr. Chairman, and you don't know me.
▶ 1:15:05Drogan. It's my It's my time and I'm the chairman whether whether or not I'm running for office is irrelevant.
▶ 1:15:10ask a question, not make a statement.
▶ 1:15:12Sine, the fact of the matter is, Mr.
▶ 1:15:14And you accuse me Chairman of this committee, Mr. Sine, and it's my time. And the fact of the matter is, the people of Texas, the people of Texas, Ms. Drogan, are the ones left holding the bag.
▶ 1:15:23Yes, sir. Are the taxpayers in Texas paying education for illegal alien children to the detriment of American citizen children? Yes, sir. Can you expand on that? We talked about it before on the numbers. We've had over 100 something thousand unaccompanied alien children. How about the fact that we've got uh for every English learner, Texas schools receive uh 616 or $950 for those enrolled in a dual language program. How much is that cost? About $830 million, sir.
▶ 1:15:53And how much money do we get from the federal government for that? $8.1 million.
▶ 1:15:57So, the Texas taxpayers are the ones left holding the bag on that number alone, correct?
▶ 1:16:0390% of it. And what is the impact for the average school district out there that is dealing with the fact you have illegal alien children that are being educated on the back of the taxpayers? It's massive. That's what we were talking about is this isn't just about the illegal immigrant illegal children. It's also about the entire system. We have accountability systems and these students, I pointed out several districts, Lake Worth ISD, 43.6% of them are English learners. This is a crushing bear.
▶ 1:16:30It goes between 30 and 70% that are English learners in these districts that are slated for takeover. That doesn't just impact the students the illegal students in the schools, it impacts the entire school and American citizens who are losing out on resources. Their teachers are being forced to try and do Google Translate on their phones. All of these things obviously impact the total education system, and the taxpayers are left holding the bag for it.
▶ 1:16:57Some Somebody asserted earlier that that there's nobody clamoring in the state of Texas to deal with this issue. First of all, do you believe that to be true? That is 100% false.
▶ 1:17:07Correct. And I hear about it all the time across the state of Texas, since I do crisscross the state of Texas quite a lot. And the reality is, with respect to that question, do we have the information or the data for the average American to understand the extent to which forced education of illegal alien children is having an impact on their kids, their school district, their bond issuances, their property taxes. Are we prohibited from having that information right now?
▶ 1:17:35Yes, we are prohibited from having that information, and it has created a quote, "chilling effect" on districts. I hear from teachers, superintendents, and leaders all across the state of Texas. They want this data collected so that we can have a comprehensive view of how this impacts students and taxpayers in our education system as a whole. Thank you, Ms. Rogan. I'll now recognize Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, Mr.
▶ 1:18:00O'Brien, you made a comment that you that the statistics show that illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants committed crime at a higher rate than other folks. We have I've had statistics, and we've talked about them in this committee, that are just the opposite, and they came from Texas. Where are your statistics from? The statistics that we looked at were from the SCAAP, which is the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program. The state?
▶ 1:18:25It's a It's a federal program that reimburses states for the cost of incarcerating uh anyone who is not a citizen who is present in the United States, particularly illegal aliens. Do you have a copy of that study with you so I could take a look it?
▶ 1:18:37have it with me. We can get you a copy of it.
▶ 1:18:39Well, just to inform you, this Justice Department did a study a few years ago in Texas and said that undocumented immigrants are at a much lesser rate of committing offenses other citizens. And other statistics show that as well. They are less likely to commit offenses.
▶ 1:19:00Most of them are don't get out and are afraid right now to get out of their house because they're afraid they'll get shot by ICE or taken to to to to some detention camp and held for an unlimited amount of time, even if they have their little hats on and they're 5 years old and they take them to Texas and put them That's not good for children. That's not good for America. That's not good for anybody. That's anti-American.
▶ 1:19:25So, if you show me your statistics and get them to me, I'll look at them and I'll send you this Justice Department statistics that show that illegal or undocumented immigrants do not commit crimes at a higher rate. Well, we certainly can get that to you and my experience as an immigration judge and a trial attorney with ICE would would indicate differently. And my experience Your experience is not statistics. It's your experience. It's very subjective. I'd like to see objective. I think the statistics are based on the experience of people like me.
▶ 1:19:55Mr. Saenz, you were trying to say something in response to Mr. Roy and he cut you off. You're not running for office, I understand that. Could you tell me what you were about to say? I was going to say that in fact the number of students who take who are in school as a result of Plyler versus Doe is dictated by our immigration policies in effect. So, we can talk about the billions of people out in the world, but it has no reflection on what's happening in this country. As you earlier mentioned, we're talking about students who are here.
▶ 1:20:25As it was mentioned by your colleague Ashley, we're talking about students who are here. Their families are here. Don't know how long they'll be here, but they're here, maybe here indefinitely or permanently. That's the class of students we're talking about who benefit from Plyler versus Doe. But not only they benefit, their classmates benefit, and all of society benefits because they then have the skills to ultimately contribute to our economy in important ways to the tune of billions, ultimately trillions of I think Mr.
▶ 1:20:54Rogan was giving some testimony that undocumented or illegals have worse or worse grades and are less likely more likely to drop out and cause problems. Did did Well, the reality is is that
▶ 1:21:07Excuse me, Mr. Rogan. I was not asking you a question. I'm sorry. I didn't
▶ 1:21:09That's not a problem. Just Mr. Stange, do you remember her saying that? So, I I think it's important to note that we don't have data about undocumented students and their grades. What we do is that so many of those who were undocumented in elementary and secondary school do go on to higher education.
▶ 1:21:27These are the students who now have DACA and their younger colleagues who have been rendered ineligible for DACA, but these are the ones who are contributing to our economy who frankly, through their contributions in health care and in other fields, saved us during the pandemic. So, that's what we're talking about, not students who are low-performing. I think it's important to note because in a minute a lot of conflation of this, that when you talk about English learners, you're not talking about undocumented students.
▶ 1:21:53The vast majority of non-citizens in this country are not undocumented. They have some other status, lawful permanent residents, or other. And that comprises a portion of the English learner population, and frankly, a large portion of the English learner population is United States citizens born in this country who have every right to stay permanently and who are in school but come to school with a need to acquire English fluency at an academic level that they didn't acquire
▶ 1:22:23in their homes prior to coming to school. Similarly, the chair mentioned in his opening remarks the Latino population of a particular school district. Latino does not equal undocumented, not by any means. The Latino population is US citizen and lawful permanent resident in this country.
▶ 1:22:43So, talking about increased numbers of Latino students in a school is completely irrelevant to what we are talking about here, which is the experience of undocumented students in public schools. Thank you. And I yield back the balance of my time. I'll now Oh, I'll recognize the ranking member for some UC's. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a March 18, 2026 statement and report titled The Power of Plyler highlighting how the Plyler decision has aided in decades of economic advancement
▶ 1:23:13Without objection. I would also introduce the Texas specific data showing the net fiscal impact of Plyler has been $93 billion to the positive in Texas.
▶ 1:23:24And finally, I would enter a 2021 study by the National Bureau of Economic Research entitled Presence of immigrant students boosts test scores for all. Without objection. I'll now recognize the gentle lady from Wyoming. 5 minutes. Thank you. Um when discussing the issue of K-12 education, there is no free public education. Every decision that is made here in Washington, D.C. or within any state or local community comes at the cost of the American taxpayer.
▶ 1:23:52Plyler versus Doe effectively imposed an unfunded mandate whose consequences due to years of neglect and mismanagement of our immigration system across multiple administrations has gone far beyond what could have ever been foreseen in 1982. This is evident as the court's decision rested on the assertion that the number of illegal aliens in public schools was small and that there was no evidence in the record suggesting that illegal entrants impose any significant burden on the state's economy. We know that is absolutely untrue.
▶ 1:24:24And I'm sure that Mr. Stearns, if he had actually read the the the data, would recognize that as well. This decision, which came at a time markedly different than the circumstances we face today, negatively impacts every aspect and participation of our public education system at the cost of hardworking American families. Reporting from 2023 found that New York City grappled with the challenge of incorporating nearly 20,000 illegal alien students into its classes, while in 2024, the Denver public schools incorporated over 3,000.
▶ 1:24:55Ms. Drogan, knowing that schools are generally unable to ask about a student's immigration status, does any consistently reliable data exist that could give us an idea of how many illegal alien students are enrolled in our public school systems and how much it costs the American taxpayer? It's all just estimates, and I would say that that's very intentional, whether it's weaponized opaqueness or incompetence.
▶ 1:25:18The idea is that they don't want us to identify them, to understand, and be able to give accurate numbers on how many, where they are, what the impact, not just the cost, but the socioeconomic impact of entire communities. Again, I was listening to Mr. McClintock talk about a mother talking about she wanted to get her kids away from gangs. There are gangs in Houston schools. Trend is in Houston schools. This has been proven.
▶ 1:25:44So, to to say that we can give an accurate number, we can use Census Bureau data, we can use different entities to try and extrapolate from Customs and Immigration or or other services, but the truth is is we don't know, and that is very intentional, particularly by the Obama administration's dear colleague letter in 2011. Well, then, Mr. O'Brien, wouldn't you say that the same is true for crime statistics?
▶ 1:26:08Isn't that intentional to ignore the immigration status of many people who commit crimes in order to cover up the fact that, in fact, illegal aliens do commit crimes at a higher rate than native-born. Yes, that is 100% correct. And you also have to take into account that any illegal alien is by definition a criminal because they have violated 8 USC 1325 improper entry by an alien and so they've committed a crime to enter the United States. Okay.
▶ 1:26:35Um if the data is not there and verification is not an option or there adequate safeguards at the state and local level to monitor and mitigate misuse of taxpayer funding including issues such as residency or enrollment fraud? No, not anyone that can track it accurately. We simply do not have the data. What reforms if any have been taken at the state and local levels particularly over the course of the Biden-Harris border crisis? Has there been any?
▶ 1:27:03No, the most recent has been Tennessee has passed a law through the house asking to be able to track this data. All right. And And again, Ms. Drogan, given that the national average cost of educating a single student exceeds how have state and local governments accounted for spikes in enrollment stemming from unchecked illegal immigration? It's crushing.
▶ 1:27:25The debt in Texas is growing from not just what we're spending at the state level, but we also have to recognize that our bond debt, we have billion of bond debt. This brings massive amount of debt from our taxpayers and we cannot identify who they are, where they are going, and the impact on Texans as a whole.
▶ 1:27:47So, have essential services programs or facility improvements been reduced or delayed due to the enrollment burden that Plyler versus Doe imposes on our nation's schools? I think that's a very accurate statement that there are students that are not getting the services American students whether they're special education students or in other classifications that are not getting the services because we are having to redirect student funding to pay for English second language um teachers, tutors, all sorts of this.
▶ 1:28:17But also, as I noted in my testimony, there's a whole host of other problems, not just chronic absenteeism, but you look at the medical results, the mental health problems. When you have these students that are coming in and they have severe mental health problems due to traumatic events, whether it's rape or violence that they've occurred, this takes other resources out of the school system. Okay. Well, I thank you for the testimony.
▶ 1:28:40I have many other questions, but I also want to at this point ask unanimous consent to introduce an article entitled "Illegal Immigrant Student Accused of Groping Girls in North Virginia High School" related to an adult student who lied about his age so that he could enroll in high school. I also would like to uh introduce
▶ 1:28:59Objection. uh unanimous consent for an article "Vance Reveals $19 billion in fraud uncovered in Minneapolis and hints that California is the next target."
▶ 1:29:10Without objection. Clearly erasing any financial benefits that illegals may provide in this country. Thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 1:29:16the gentlewoman from Wyoming. I will now recognize the gentlewoman from Washington. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to start just by saying there are no illegal children. I think it's a very cruel thing to say about children. There is an illegal war on Iran happening right now that's already cost taxpayers $16 billion. Um there is an illegal cover-up of the Epstein files that is happening right now.
▶ 1:29:42There is an illegal corruption by the Trump administration officials like Kristi Noem in directing government contracts to family members. Those are all illegal, but it's important that we don't say that there are illegal children. Um that is a very cruel and hurtful statement to make. Republicans would have the American people blame immigrants for all their problems, but it's not immigrants who are making it harder to feed families.
▶ 1:30:09Republicans did that by cutting hundreds of billions of dollars from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It's not immigrants who are raising the cost of health care for children. Republicans did that by cutting hundreds of billions of dollars from the Children's Health Insurance Program. And it's not immigrants who are hurting the quality of our public education. Republicans are now trying to do that by overturning the Supreme Court's historic decision in Plyler Plyler v. Doe.
▶ 1:30:35That decision established that undocumented students are protected by the 14th Amendment against discriminatory state laws that deny them equal access to public education. And Justice William Brennan said it best when he said, "These students, quote, live within the structure of our civic institutions and contribute to the progress of our nation." Mr. Saenz, a lot of these discussions end up dehumanizing immigrants. And I wanted you to humanize these students for us. Who are they?
▶ 1:31:04Bring them into the room with us. Tell them who they are, how they've contributed to the progress of our nation. Well, first of all, they are the the older brothers and sisters of US citizens. And then when they complete their education, go on to higher education, and adjust their status and remain here permanently, they are the US citizen fathers and mothers of United States citizens today.
▶ 1:31:23When you talk about a decision goes back 44 years, we have a long history of folks who were able to attend school because of Plyler, because they were in Texas or another state that might have adopted that policy, and who have succeeded beyond anyone's dream, making contributions to our economy, to our society, and even to government. And you mentioned during COVID, I want to bring another example from my home state.
▶ 1:31:45It's El Santiago Pastrana grew up going to public schools near Seattle, where she had teachers who mentored her and inspired her to attend the University of Washington. As a DACA recipient, now a naturalized US citizen, you talked about this progression in some of your answers, she has decided to give back to her community by working at an immigration law firm for a decade and at the State Attorney General's Civil Rights Division.
▶ 1:32:09And the whole discussion reminds me of the debate that we keep having in this committee around birthright citizenship, another clear protection of the 14th Amendment that Republicans continue to attack. This subcommittee held a hearing last year and one of the witnesses testified that eliminating birthright citizenship would quote create a permanent underclass, a caste system which was the very result that the Reconstruction Congress intended to end, end quote. Mr.
▶ 1:32:34Sayenz, would removing students like Itzel from the classroom also create a permanent underclass? It would, and the majority in Plyler versus Doe recognized that and creating such a permanent underclass would have immediate negative repercussions for the public school system. As I was outlining, you will lose students in the schools, not just undocumented students, and it has long-term consequences, of course, for all of society.
▶ 1:32:57When you have a permanent underclass, they are deprived of any ability to contribute in the way that DACA recipients and others have continued to contribute as doctors, as lawyers, in important professions and positions throughout society. What about the impact on US citizen children? What's the impact in the classroom likely to be? It actually improves their education because they're exposed to other cultures, they're exposed to other experiences. When those undocumented students are here.
▶ 1:33:24are sitting next to them.
▶ 1:33:25And when they're not there. They They lose all of that. They lose all of that. Their only encounters with those students would be out on the streets. That's not likely to be a very positive encounter on either side. We're talking about enhancing public education by continuing to follow a 44-year-old decision or bringing public education to an end as we know it. In addition to taking away benefits in the classroom, what are the broader consequences to the American economy?
▶ 1:33:49You've sort of referred to this if Plyler was overturned and students like Itzel were denied equal access to education. Our economy would take a huge hit. I mean, there's no denying that people who are allowed to have an education are able to contribute more to our society through tax payments and through their contributions on the job. If you take away the even basic even the basic education that folks need, their ability to contribute will be rendered almost nullity. I think this is such an important um conversation that you're bringing to the table. I thank you.
▶ 1:34:20Mr. Chairman, I yield back, but I do have some unanimous consent requests to enter. Without Uh first one is granting This is from New America. Granting undocumented students access to public education delivers $633 billion return on investment.
▶ 1:34:35Without objection. Next one is from Brookings. Are immigrant students disproportionately consuming educational resources? And I would just say that the conclusion is absolutely not.
▶ 1:34:46Without objection. Next one is from NPR. Immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than US-born Americans, studies find. Without objection. Next one is from Cato Institute with similar uh conclusions. Illegal immigration and crime in Texas.
▶ 1:35:01Without objection. And the last one is from the National Institute of Justice um entitled undocumented immigrant offending rate lower than US-born citizen rate.
▶ 1:35:12Without objection. I thank the gentlelady from Washington. I'll now recognize the gentleman from North Carolina for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and uh thanks to all of you on the panels uh today. Let me jump into this. Mr. Rogers, you touched on something uh I think when Representative McClintock was speaking and uh you had mentioned in your written testimony that caught my attention that the 2022 Dobbs decision at the Supreme Court set the framework for overturning Plyler versus Doe, and um I just want to give you a few moments to kind of dive a little deeper into that and explain
▶ 1:35:42why you believe this to be the case. Sure, thank you. Um the the Dobbs decision set up five standards for whether uh uh prior president should be overruled. The first one was um whether the uh Excuse me, whether um nature of the court's error. And if it's an egregious error, that that weighs in favor of overruling. As I talked about, the court applied the wrong standards for the equal protection clause.
▶ 1:36:12The second is the quality of the reasoning. And if you actually read the decision, it's very bare. It just basically says, "This is good policy." It doesn't give actual legal reasoning. Um the third is workability. It's whether it's a standard that can be applied by courts. And the standard the court invented, no one's been able to define or understand what it means. Um the fourth is its effect on other areas of law. And as we've heard, this decision has affected how states can implement their own education policy.
▶ 1:36:38Um we heard some testimony about how states haven't adopted uh Plyler-type laws like the one that issued in Texas because it's good policy. If it were good policy, then we wouldn't hear people concerned about Plyler being overruled. But the fact that they're so concerned means they know that states would adopt it if if they didn't have this restriction. And then the last is reliance interest, whether uh companies or whether individuals have a financial reliance interest on the the the rule. And there's there's no financial interest of the type of like contract interest here. So, all five rule uh weigh against uh Plyler being upheld. Excellent.
▶ 1:37:08Thank you, sir. And Mr. O'Brien, can can you explain how the Supreme Court in Plyler acted like the legislative branch rather than the judicial branch? Sure. The function of a court is to apply the law as written. In this particular case, uh there really was no constitutional issue before the court based on the court's own reasoning.
▶ 1:37:28The court found that uh illegal aliens was not a suspect Uh the court also found uh that uh a free public education is not a fundamental right. Uh therefore, it's arguable that there was no constitutional issue whatsoever in front of the court because by definition if illegal aliens is not a suspect class, then the state of Texas was not discriminating against anyone.
▶ 1:37:55But for whatever reason the Supreme Court granted a writ of certiorari and went forward with it, and then they completely ignored the relevant standards, and they ruled entirely on policy grounds. Now, the consideration of policy under our constitutional framework belongs to Congress of the United States. It does not belong to the courts. The courts apply the law based on on canons of statutory construction and other legal principles, but policy calls belong to Congress.
▶ 1:38:23So, you would say the court should not be able to require free education for the children of illegal immigrants. No, not by any stretch of the imagination. That is a decision that if Congress wished to make, it probably could have, but it no way fell within the purview of the court. Thank you, sir. And Mr. Rogers, coming back, as I understand the Plyler versus Doe, the state of Texas argued the illegal alien children imposed a burden on the state's education system.
▶ 1:38:50The court in a decision rejected such a claim, and here we are 40 years later where there's a lot more data to underscore that point. Can you explain the burden that the massive influx of illegal aliens places on the state's public education systems? As we've heard, they they impose a tremendous burden because most of them arrive not speaking English.
▶ 1:39:12They require special services, which means that American citizen children can't get those services because there's limited An interesting example of of the policy decision about this is um if a temporary immigrant arrives with a with a with a tourist visa, they're actually required to pay tuition under under federal law right now, they have to pay tuition for their kids. Yet illegal aliens who are also here temporarily don't have to, which is tremendously unfair that that they're treated differently and given special Thank you, sir. Mr.
▶ 1:39:40Chairman, I yield my I thank the gentleman from North Carolina. Uh Mr. Rogers, your last 30 seconds here. Um it is your considered judgment that there are that there are states right now taking actions to start pass laws to say that they should not have to fund uh education for illegal alien children and that they should move it the way through the courts and uh that the court should take it up. Is that correct? Thanks, Mr. Rogers. I will now recognize uh the gentlewoman from Vermont for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 1:40:11Uh I'm a former middle school teacher, which I always say is perfect preparation for this place. I know the incredible value and importance of public education and to say that the children of immigrants are not entitled to learn and to grow in public schools is an extreme position. We're talking about children. This is a fundamental question of decency and who we claim to be as Americans.
▶ 1:40:39I want to echo the comments of my colleague, Ms. Jayapal, who said, "There are no illegal And we should not be referring to them in this way. And how has this administration treated children and families so far? Well, it has cut early childhood education. It has cut children's health care. It has cut child nutrition programs. It has cut infant formula inspection. It has cut research for vaccines. They even eliminated funding for children's television programs on PBS.
▶ 1:41:10This is not an administration that is looking out for children and families. As I said, I'm a former teacher and I'm a parent. And I know how hard it is being a kid and a teen in this country today. Our kids carry the real real fear of gun violence in their schools. They carry the real anxiety of unaddressed climate change.
▶ 1:41:36They have to navigate social media landscapes that exacerbate the crisis of loneliness and disconnection. And for the children of immigrants, they have to deal with all this on top of the fear that they are experiencing right now as there are targeted raids happening in communities across this country. And just last week in Vermont, masked agents decided to create chaos and a dangerous situation near two schools.
▶ 1:42:05And I heard from parents about how frightened they were to drop their kids off at school and to pick them up at the end of the day. The actions caused fear and concern among this community in Vermont, and that kind of anxiety is going to live with those children and these families for a lifetime. Mr. Saenz, can you describe the level of fear and anxiety affecting immigrant communities in the US today? It's extreme.
▶ 1:42:35And it's extreme because of what you have described, but it starts with the undifferentiated undifferentiated immigration enforcement that is happening across the country, targeted at certain states, but across the country, and accomplished through masked agents who do not wear identification that they're law enforcement at all. This is not what kids have been taught should occur in this country. So, it occasions great anxiety, and studies have begun to document higher degrees of absenteeism because of it. But you add to it the challenges that you've also outlined.
▶ 1:43:04When you take away adequate nutrition, you take away adequate health care, you take away adequate housing, then those are the things that kids have anxiety about. Is my family going to have a place to stay tomorrow night? Am I going to get a meal tonight? Am I going to get the health care that I need? On top of that, if they actually have a health care need that they're not getting, they'll be absent from school. But all the kids who are in school are preoccupied by that kind of consideration, and it leads to their inability to concentrate, as I'm sure you saw Oh, I know.
▶ 1:43:34for all kinds of reasons in middle school, but this just adds to it and it makes them ill-equipped to really take advantage of the education while they're sitting in the classroom. So, all of it accumulates. And I just I want to make sure I highlight something here. It's not just immigrant children.
▶ 1:43:52It is any family that is a family of color in this administration cuz we have seen that ICE enforcement is concentrating on people who have a different color of the skin and a different accent. They have widened the search. It's creating lots of harm in our communities.
▶ 1:44:12And so, when you think about a child's immigrant status and that if it can be used as a means to deny immigrant children of an education, where does this end? What is the logical conclusion for this in terms of equal access to public, you know, to public education? Where will it end? What other will be excluded from this?
▶ 1:44:38Well, you have to assume that the theory that there's no rational basis that would strike down the Texas law uh means that there is no rational basis standard to strike down excluding disabled kids from school. They're also expensive. Their education is more expensive. So, you can imagine that they would be the next target.
▶ 1:44:56And beyond that, you can single out any group of students because education is not a fundamental right and under the theory being put forward today, there would be no basis to challenge any decision on equal protection grounds that would exclude any group of students. So, you can imagine a society split between those who are allowed to receive a free public education and a large and growing group that are denied that opportunity.
▶ 1:45:21I agree with you and I I stand with students. I stand with their families. I stand against the fear that is being created. And if we want a better world, which I think we all do, I think we can come together on that on this committee, then we have to support and protect young people in this country, not attack them. Thank you so much and I yield I thank the gentle lady from Vermont before I recognize my friend from Texas.
▶ 1:45:47I have a couple of unanimous consent As unanimous consent to put in the record an article by FAIR demonstrating the data showing illegal aliens have higher crime rates without objection. A CIS report showing misuse of Texas data understates illegal immigrant without objection.
▶ 1:46:08I would also put in a report by FAIR showing that there were approximately, respectfully, 16,000 illegal aliens in Vermont compared to 2.7 million illegal aliens in the state of Texas in a report demonstrating state-by-state data. And with that, I would recognize my friend from Texas, Mr. Good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing and for fighting so hard against destructive mass migration.
▶ 1:46:37And thank you for the witnesses for taking the time to be here. Mr. Sands, if if somebody crosses the border illegally, what should happen to them? Federal law indicates that there are steps that can be taken to remove them. Now, that can happen at the border. So, they should
▶ 1:46:55Or it can happen when they are integrated into society. There are protections once you're integrated into society, especially But if they're cross if we find them crossing in the into the country illegally, they should be deported to put to put it simply. Is that right? If someone does not have a right to enter, yes, there is a right under federal law to interdict them and prevent them from entering. Right. That's been a basic element of immigration law for a very long time. I I agree. Including during Plyler. I I agree.
▶ 1:47:23Um do you believe that American tax dollars should be used to rehabilitate criminal illegal aliens within our own borders? I believe it's in our own interest to rehabilitate anybody who commits a crime. Including criminal illegal aliens
▶ 1:47:34If it happens within our borders, if it happens within our borders, it's to the benefit of all of us to rehabilitate them. Rehabilitation of those who are convicted of criminals is not for their own benefit. It's for the benefit of society. How many criminal illegal aliens should we rehabilitate?
▶ 1:47:50Again, anyone who commits a crime and is convicted of a crime should be rehabilitated for the benefit of the entire So an illegal alien comes into our country, murders or rapes somebody, we ought to rehabilitate them is is your view and there's no limit to the number of illegal alien criminals we should rehabilitate. Is that your testimony? Um I wasn't asked to testify about that, Congressman. I asked to testify about I'm clarifying your position. I'm clarifying your position which you just attempted to lay out.
▶ 1:48:16is quite clear. Thank you.
▶ 1:48:17Okay, how much money should we spend on rehabilitating criminal illegal aliens? We should spend as much money as necessary to rehabilitate anyone who is convicted of crime in this country. let me let me just note, Congressman, it has nothing to do with Plyler versus Doe. These are children. These are children and with an education they are far less likely to ever commit
▶ 1:48:39my questions actually. Um couldn't we just secure the border and deport illegal aliens as opposed to rehabilitating them on our own tax So that's too facile, Congressman, and I think you should understand that. The simple fact is society benefits from rehabilitation. It's not a gift to anyone who's convicted
▶ 1:48:56Society is paying for rehabilitation it sounds like. Do you believe that there should be a strict wall of separation between local law enforcement and immigration officials? Do I believe there should be such a law? Yes, I do. It that there should be a strict wall, to be clear. A strict wall of separation
▶ 1:49:13laws all laws are strict. I'm I'm aware of Congress or any legislature passing a lenient law.
▶ 1:49:18It's wall, w a l l. So, law. Wall, w a l l. A wall, a wall. I'm sorry, I thought you said law. I apologize. A strict wall of separation.
▶ 1:49:28I think a wall would be incredibly ridiculous, frankly. A wall of separation between local law enforcement and immigration officials.
▶ 1:49:35A wall of separation. You know, like, okay, sir. Yes, Congressman. Yes. Again, I do believe there should be a law of separation. And if you want to describe that law metaphorically as a wall, Okay. I would accept that. Okay, I was using I was actually using your words where you said there should be a strict strict wall of no cooperation between local law enforcement and federal immigration authorities. That's something that you had said in an interview with NPR in November of 2016. So, police arrest
▶ 1:50:04just acknowledged that. So, not not sure why you're putting myself to myself. I'm sure that interview was not about Plyler. I'm the one asking questions here, not you. If police arrest an illegal alien for breaking into somebody's home in the middle of the night, should they turn that illegal alien over to immigration officials? So, Plyler versus Doe guarantees an education. And as a result, that means that those kids who receive that education are far less likely to break into anyone's home. But I'm asking, let's say they do.
▶ 1:50:34Should they be turned over to immigration officials? It's just a yes or
▶ 1:50:39okay, no. No, they should be put through the criminal law system that we have. But what about after serving Let's say they're convicted and they serve a sentence. And this is a criminal illegal alien, they broke into somebody's home. They're convicted, they serve a Let's say a five-year sentence. Instead of releasing them onto the street, should local law enforcement or prison officials give them over to immigration officials? There are too many repercussions of a policy like that. You're putting it in the context of a single instance.
▶ 1:51:08No, it's it's very It's very It's that your answer is no. Um No, but that's not clear, sir. That's not clear, sir. Please don't put words in my mouth. You have my words from NPR and what I say here, you don't need to put words in my mouth.
▶ 1:51:21taxpayers pay for Medicaid for illegal In many circumstances, yes. They should not just American taxpayers, but immigrant taxpayers also pay taxes as well. As you know, sir, there is no exception for tax paying based on immigration status.
▶ 1:51:37I'm the one who's asking questions here. Should American taxpayers pay for social security for illegal aliens? It's a yes or no question. I think the answer is no. So, I'm asking
▶ 1:51:48question. It doesn't happen. We don't provide social security benefits to I wasn't aware that was a topic of today's hearing. I think that should happen and I'm asking you if you think it should happen. It's the last question. Will you please answer the question? I don't believe that that's a question when it doesn't happen. It's misleading to suggest it does. No one It's a It's a really basic question and you don't want to answer it because you've got a crazy radical open borders agenda that we can all see.
▶ 1:52:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank I thank the gentleman from Texas for his questions and I'll now recognize the ranking member. For what purpose do you request? Yes, thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an article written by Alexandra Villarreal published by The Guardian January 23rd, 2026. They said there are kids not going to school. Fear of ICE is keeping children from classes in Connecticut. Without objection.
▶ 1:52:40Also ask unanimous consent to enter in the record an article written by Bri Hatch and published by Chalkbeat Tennessee on October 28th, 2025 titled In Increasingly Hispanic Memphis Schools, Immigration Enforcement Surge Brings Fear and Absences. Without objection.
▶ 1:52:56Ask unanimous consent to enter in the record an article written by Kate Payne, Bianca Vázquez Tanus and Gisela Salmón published by NBC News November 17, 2025 entitled immigrant student enrollment is dwindling at schools across the US amid immigration concerns. Without objection.
▶ 1:53:14I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an article written by Justine McDaniel and Maria Louisa Paul published by The Washington Post, November 24, 2025 titled in cities targeted by ICE empty desks and districts follow.
▶ 1:53:28I seek you see to enter into the record an article written by Daniela Silva and Natasha Korecki published by NBC News on October 14, 2025 entitled Chicago teachers say immigration enforcement near schools is scaring kids
▶ 1:53:42Without objection. class. Finally, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an article written by Mara Klecker and Anthony Lonetree published by the Minnesota Star Tribune, January 15, 2026 titled attendance drops at Minnesota schools as federal immigration enforcement in test intensified. Without objection. Thank you. I'll now recognize the gentlelady from Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 1:54:06You know, I I just have to say that many of us travel around the world and in my travels I remain in awe at how educated so many children are in other countries. They are bilingual, they are they are culturally proficient and aware. It is amazing.
▶ 1:54:29And it is so disturbing that it seems like my Republican colleagues in this committee are interested in a dehumanizing other children and b advocating for our children to be unprepared for this world. At one point, you know, the languages that folks were hearing in the schools were Welsh, Irish, Polish, German, Italian.
▶ 1:54:57And now we want to shift that children of color as we continue to find ways to isolate ourselves and dehumanize children. So, Mr. Science, folks do like to talk about the money. So, let's get into the money.
▶ 1:55:16Um there was a FWD uh report called The Power of PILER that estimates that adult Californians who benefited from PILER have contributed $655 billion in combined past and future GDP over their lifetime. So, can you quickly walk the committee through what that number looks like on the ground? What it means is we have contributing members of our society who are doctors, who are teachers.
▶ 1:55:45Many uh formerly undocumented students end up in the education profession, in the healthcare profession. They are making contributions in business, in some cases in C-suite positions. It means that we have the opportunity to translate that investment in education into the GDP that that report you cited talks about. Right. And the report actually shows a net fiscal gain of $145 billion in California alone.
▶ 1:56:11So, that's income tax revenue over lifetimes minus the cost of educating those children. So, for those who claim we can't afford PILER, how do you respond to the argument that we actually can't afford to lose it?
▶ 1:56:26I think it's absolutely clear because we'll have immediate repercussions in our public schools really seeing a further diminution in their ability to deliver an education to anyone, but in the long term we'll lose all of that additional revenue and economic contributions and the things that you can't even quantify in money, the innovations, the inventions, the new ideas, the inspired leadership provided by formerly undocumented immigrants in our society. And sort of like connectivity to humanity.
▶ 1:56:54So, if PILER is overturned, California stands to lose 99 billion dollars in in future economic output just from children currently in school in 2023. What does that trajectory trajectory look like nationally in your professional assessment? Well, you can extend it out further because if Plyler is overturned, a number of states will begin to attempt to deny an education to kids.
▶ 1:57:23I ultimately think they would reverse as they see their public schools fall apart because of the exclusion of a certain class of students. But over time, you're talking about trillions of contributions to the economy including to revenue from a population that is permanently going to be in this country.
▶ 1:57:42So the contrast is a permanent underclass incapable of providing any kind of serious contribution to either tax revenues, the economy, or to the many other elements of social connection that we've talked about. Thank you. Uh and to Mr. O'Brien, your organization advocates for restricting Plyler, but the record here shows that the court argument you make that educating these children is a cost to taxpayers uh simply doesn't hold up.
▶ 1:58:09The data shows tax revenue from undocumented workers alone covers the cost of educating these children more than nine times over. So am I correct in saying that you believe that the hundreds of billions of dollars in economic contributions from Plyler beneficiaries including over 600 billion dollars in California alone were not worth the investment? I don't believe that those contributions were made.
▶ 1:58:38I believe that the data upon which those claims are based is erroneous and that there is a cost imposed by Plyler. Okay, so you don't like the data when it doesn't say what you want it to say. So I'm I'm to stay with the numbers in the report And the And the numbers that are here. FAIR has argued that educating undocumented children is a cost to taxpayers.
▶ 1:58:59The data in front of us shows a net fiscal gain of $145 billion in California, $43 billion in New York, $20 billion in Arizona, $93 billion in Texas, $42 billion in Florida, $21 in Washington. So, I think once again, we should be talking about why we cannot afford to lose PILER, not why it is so important to lose all of these economic gains. And Mr. Chair, I just want to enter into the record.
▶ 1:59:29I'd like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the report forward.us report the power of Without objection. Thank you so much and I yield back. Thank Julie from California and I I will now recognize the chairman of the committee, Mr. Jordan.
▶ 1:59:46Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Rogers, what percentage, any idea what percentage of the United States population lives in a sanctuary That's a good question. I don't have that numbers, but it's it's it's far too high. It should be zero. Yeah, it should be zero, but it's like 31.5% 18 cities, 11 states, three counties, and the District of Columbia.
▶ 2:00:08And because these are big blue cities, big blue states, again, almost a third of the population lives in a jurisdiction And correct me if I'm wrong, but where local left-wing political leaders tell local law enforcement not to work with federal law enforcement when it comes to enforcing federal laws. Is that your understanding of sanctuary jurisdiction? Correct, yeah. And is that literally one of the dumbest things you've ever heard? Yes, and it's a very It's against federal laws well, because it's it's a fine to destroy federal law.
▶ 2:00:37But in a third of the country, that goes on. And last year alone, we just marked this bill up two weeks ago. Last year alone, 2025, 17,864 times, ICE would file a detainer with a local law with local jail, local detention center, where there is a person who's in the country illegally and been charged with the crime, and ICE would send a detainer notice saying, "Hey, if you're going to let this guy out, give us a call." And 17,864
▶ 2:01:08times in 2025, local law enforcement, because left-wing politicians told them to, would not work with federal law enforcement and release many times release these people to the streets. Again, I'd ask you, is that a crazy policy or what? It's absolutely crazy and it's totally counterproductive for everybody, illegal immigrants and legal immigrants who live in those
▶ 2:01:26And would you be surprised to learn that several of those people who were released then went out and caused harm, did some crime against some other American, maybe some other migrant, who knows, but committed some crime after they've been released when they could have been turned over to federal law enforcement. It's not surprising, it's totally predictable, and it's a tragedy for each of those people.
▶ 2:01:44Totally predictable. Mr. Swains, would you say that's a good policy or a bad Which policy? Policy sanctuary
▶ 2:01:51It's a good policy. A good policy to let 17,000 people out, potentially 17,000 people not under detainer, and let some of those people released to the streets who'd already been charged with the crime, and then they committed another crime, and you're saying that's a good That's your characterization of how that works out. It's an inaccurate It's an inaccurate characterization.
▶ 2:02:10No, I'm sorry, it's inaccurate. Okay, so tell me what's inaccurate.
▶ 2:02:13want to have accurate numbers,
▶ 2:02:1531% 31% of the population lives in the sanctuary jurisdiction. Is that inaccurate? I don't know. I'll take your word on that. I don't know.
▶ 2:02:21So, that's not inaccurate. What about this? 17,864 times a detainer was not honored last year by local law enforcement when ICE issued a detainer. Again, I have no idea, Congressman. We came here to talk about Plyler versus Doe, and I can absolutely guarantee you there has never been a detainer issued against a student enrolled in public education
▶ 2:02:41It wasn't my question. I'll get to the student issue.
▶ 2:02:43is about Plyler. So, I don't have an answer to your question about whether the data you used is accurate or is about immigration policy related to something completely unrelated. was suspend. It is the gentleman's time to ask the questions. The witness can respond to the questions, but we're not going to talk over each other. Mr. O'Brien, to to get to Plyler, there's a cost associated with this, right? With this decision.
▶ 2:03:05There is. Significant. I mean, I think the court said way back in 1982, the number of illegal aliens in public schools was small and there was quote no evidence in record suggesting that illegal entrants imposed any significant burden on a burden on the state's economy. That was the ruling back in '82, but things have changed a little bit since then, haven't they?
▶ 2:03:23They've changed drastically and the estimated combined cost that taxpayers, federal, state, and local is somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 billion with a And it was particularly exacerbated the last the previous 4 years in in the last administration. Is that accurate? Yes, by a significant margin.
▶ 2:03:398 to 10 million people coming into the country in a 4-year time frame, many of those were students. I remember the Biden administration lost track of hundreds of thousands of those students. Is that right? About 300,000. That's correct.
▶ 2:03:50Yeah. So, there's certainly a cost associated with that. That's what this hearing's about as Yeah. Let me ask one other question here and then maybe I'll yield a few seconds to my good friend from Texas. Um is Thomas Paine an undocumented immigrant or a founding father, Mr. Rogers? I'm just curious. He's a founding father he's not an undocumented immigrant.
▶ 2:04:09Yeah. Mr. O'Brien. He was a citizen of the UK who went to another territory of the UK. So, it was like moving from Massachusetts to New Hampshire. Yeah. Yeah. Miss Miss Grogan, I just was curious if you thought he was an undocumented immigrant or a founding
▶ 2:04:23He's a founding father. And what about you, Mr. Sires? What are you going to say that question? I'd say the terms don't apply back when Tom Paine was alive. So, it is true he was undocumented. But that really wasn't a category But wasn't he wasn't he
▶ 2:04:37a founding Was he a founding father?
▶ 2:04:39he's both. Come on, it's Come on, it's common sense, pun intended. Was Was Was Was he a founding father?
▶ 2:04:45he was. All right. God bless you. I will yield Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Grijalva, I ran out of time. That's I appreciate uh the chairman. I will now recognize the ranking member for UC request.
▶ 2:04:54Mr. Chairman, don't leave yet. I have a question for you if you
▶ 2:04:58Mr. Hold on. Hold on. Recognize the ranking member for UC. I I can hold the UC. And Mr. Goldman, I I do have to do an interview. That's how I was like I I do but
▶ 2:05:06I I I I have I have one question for
▶ 2:05:09Yes, let's hear it.
▶ 2:05:10Of the 17,000 and however many
▶ 2:05:12864 Yep. How many of those people uh had completed had a criminal conviction and completed their sentence? I don't know that number. I know there was a detainer filed at the at the local uh detention center or jail and it was not honored. And some of those individuals were released and we know some of them committed crimes.
▶ 2:05:32Right. And the problem You can go, that's fine. But the problem with you constantly making this argument about sanctuary cities is that these are charged defendants. And as President Trump knows very well, we live in a country that has due process where you are innocent until proven guilty.
▶ 2:05:56And if the grounds for which an individual is to be deported is based on that criminal charge we do not deport people based on charges. We deport people based on And so, if you want to talk about the sanctuary laws let's talk about what the issues that you are raising are. And Mr. Rogers, you Mr.
▶ 2:06:23Jordan asked you uh whether or not the sanctuary laws state or local law enforcement from cooperating with federal law The problem is these are criminal law enforcement agencies in the state and local level and immigration is civil law enforcement.
▶ 2:06:46So we can imagine a scenario of course where the civil immigration enforcement completely overwhelms all of the resources of the local police and the local criminal law enforcement. That is the reason why sanctuary city laws apply is that so the police can actually focus on crime not on federal civil immigration. But as Mr.
▶ 2:07:14Sensenbrenner says, we are here to talk about Children that this administration to attack. This administration has increased the fees for any unaccompanied child to actually apply for a visa. Where is that unaccompanied child supposed to get money from? This administration has canceled contracts for legal representation for children.
▶ 2:07:42This administration has consistently and my Republicans have consistently attacked children who may be transgender and affect no one else. This administration is waging a war on Leave children alone.
▶ 2:08:04And the bigger point is what you haven't touched on is all the expenses that uh undocumented children take up in their public education. Well, Mr. McClintock says they're benefiting from taxpayer Well, guess what? Undocumented undocumented immigrants are taxpayers.
▶ 2:08:28In fact, the amount of money that we get from taxes paid by undocumented is nine times as much money as is paid on their education.
▶ 2:08:44And in fact, studies show that $633 billion in local and state tax revenues in local and state tax revenues are exceed whatever the education costs It increases our GDP by nearly $3 trillion.
▶ 2:09:06Why don't we stop terrorizing immigrant communities, shooting Americans, ripping Americans out of cars, arresting people at courthouses who are trying to lawfully apply for asylum? Why don't we have a bill and a hearing on that, rather than continue to attack children who are brought here without any ability to make the decision And yet you want them to what?
▶ 2:09:37Stay home, sit at home? When their parents decide to come here? Rather than get an education, contribute to our society, which the overwhelming majority do. Yes, I'm sure you can pick out one or two or five or 10 or 20 people who are released and commit a that that shouldn't happen. And if they do commit a crime, they should be deported. I disagree with Mr.
▶ 2:10:03Sires on But that's not what is happening here. So just stop attacking children. I yield back. Recognize the ranking member for unanimous consent request. Thank you. First up, I I introduce an article published by the 19th dated January 6, 2026.
▶ 2:10:315 years after January 6, dozens of pardoned insurrectionists have been arrested
▶ 2:10:36Without objection. I also have a statement of Professor Patrick Wolf highlighting how our founding fathers stress the importance of educating immigrant children. Patrick Wolf, distinguished professor of education policy in 21st endowed chair at the University of Arkansas. Without objection. The UCE request to enter in the record a statement arguing keeping children in school protects public safety, strengthens our economy, and upholds our country's
▶ 2:11:02Without objection. That's Professor Gerard Robinson at the University of Another one from NYU Professor Sophia that dismantling Plyler would harm children of US citizens and all children in US schools.
▶ 2:11:18Without objection. Also have unanimous consent to enter into the record statements from the following All for Ed on behalf of 109 civil rights Without objection. National Immigration Law Center. Go through the list. Okay.
▶ 2:11:36The Center for Law and Social Policy, the Center Found Century Foundation, the National Youth Law Center, the National Education Law Center, and the I'm sorry, First Focus on Children, and the AFL-CIO. Without objection. Thank you. Thank the gentlewoman. I will now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin for 5 minutes. Thank you. First of all, I'd like to thank Mrs.
▶ 2:11:59Grogan for bringing up one of the great horrors our country our country was involved in over the last few years, and that is the huge number of sexual assaults which took place uh by leaving the border open. I went down to the border maybe seven or eight times, and I talked to the doctors who who interviewed the women, kind of debriefed the women when they got to this country.
▶ 2:12:23And the fact that the Biden administration allowed this open border policy, complete with By the time it was over, it must have been hundreds of thousands of sexual assaults. It's really one of the low points in this this country's history, and I I wish we had more Democrats at the time who were able to look out for the women.
▶ 2:12:47I'll also point out that there are bogus studies out there claiming that these illegal immigrants are not committing many crimes. The only way they're able to come up with such a ridiculous conclusion is you look at We do not keep track of whether legal or illegal or citizens are committing crimes.
▶ 2:13:18If I go into a federal prison, which is near my district, and ask how many of the inmates here are legal immigrants, they would say we have no idea. Same thing if I talk about a county jail. So, given that most of these illegals are not classified as illegals when they're in that's how you get this bogus situation. I I I also but I'm going to ask Mr. Rogers a question. I would not even know this in response to Mr.
▶ 2:13:46Harrison's As far as who pays for people's public education, if somebody is a legal immigrant here or illegal immigrant, do we treat them differently? Yes, we do. So, for example, if a family were to come on a tourist visa, DHS would let them in for 6 months, and they can often extend for another 6 months.
▶ 2:14:08So, if a family stayed here for a year under their tourist visas and enrolled their kids in public school, under the law, they would be required to pay the cost of that education here as temporary visitors, whereas the illegal immigrants under Plyler are not. That's just insane, of course, the idea that we want more time treat people who come here illegally better than we treat people who come here legally. Now, Mrs. I guess I could ask any one of you question. Well, I'll start with Mrs. Grogan.
▶ 2:14:38We obviously have way too many illegal immigrants in this country and we have to do something to discourage this everybody from coming here. What effect does allowing people into our public schools for free have on the temptation to come here I think it's a significant temptation and we hear this all the time. You talked about the mothers that you've met whose children were abused and themself abused on their journey up here. They are driven by the promise of educating their children.
▶ 2:15:08We hear this time and time again. So, they are told if you get here, then your children can be enrolled in the schools. And so, that is what we are seeing occur all across the country, but Texas really is where many of them are entering at first point and they're finding locations that and this is why we talk about the growing and Chairman Roy talked about how you have districts that started with a couple of dozen kids and they've grown to hundreds. There's communication and they are bringing their children here to seek out a free public education.
▶ 2:15:38It's interesting. I don't know the answer to this question, but I'll just see if any of you want to guess. We have a policy of giving apparently a free education to people who come here illegally. We also have a policy of giving free health care to people come here illegally. Which is the dumber policy? Which is the one resulting in more people coming here who shouldn't be here? The free health care for all policy more than the average American gets or the free education policy? Anyone want to guess wildly?
▶ 2:16:08I would say it's probably a toss-up. Uh I did spend 2 years as a consular officer doing visa interviews in Brazil, and I personally saw people brag about how they could get free free health care when they stayed here illegally. So, it definitely is a draw. Right. I I I did hear when I was down talking to the Border Patrol, um you know, dialysis treatment for free, time to get my free dialysis. Come to Next question.
▶ 2:16:32We have, um uh the this idea that there's a a racial uh element to what we're doing um among people who come here naturalized. And every year about 800,000 people are naturalized legal in this country. Something like six times the number when I was a child.
▶ 2:16:55Uh does any of you have any guess which countries, when it comes to letting people in this country or becoming citizens legally, which country they're from? I am under the impression that if you go to the 10 countries that send the most new people here, none of them are European nations. The idea that we are a racist country is just a horrible uh slander against our country, and it makes one wonder about the motivation of people who do it. But, thank you very much. Thank the gentleman from Wisconsin.
▶ 2:17:25Thank you for his questions. Uh and I will now recognize my friend from Missouri, Mr. Long. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Plyler v. Doe is a clear example of judicial overreach reach with lasting consequences. What began as a narrow Texas funding law was transformed by the court into a nationwide mandate requiring states to provide free K-12 education to illegal aliens. As as Dr. O'Brien and Mr. Rogers testified, this was not a constitutional interpretation.
▶ 2:17:56This was judicial In doing so, the court intruded on Congress's exclusive authority over immigration and imposed significant ongoing costs to taxpayers. When unelected judges create policies of this scale, voters and their elected representatives are left without a meaningful voice in the decisions that directly affected their schools and their children's education.
▶ 2:18:21As the Dobbs framework actually offers a outline for reconsidering Plyler, uh as as Mr. Rogers pointed out, Plyler fails all five Dobbs factors for reconsidering precedent because it was egregiously wrong from the outset. And as Ms. Drogan testified, Plyler's downstream effects extend beyond illegal alien students.
▶ 2:18:43Schools are forced to operate without critical information about student populations and are unable to collect immigration status data that would inform resource allocation. It's time for Congress to reclaim its constitutional role and end this era of immigration policy dictated by unelected judges.
▶ 2:19:03Taxpayers are tired of bearing the financial burden of judicial mandates and states need to be empowered to allocate resources based on their unique needs and the needs of all American students. Um Ms. Ms. Drogan, it it seems to me ironic that my Democrat colleagues are somehow claiming Democrats are standing up for these children who entered the country illegally.
▶ 2:19:35unaccompanied minor children entered this country under the Biden-Harris administration while Democrats in Congress cheered them Many of those kids were lost. In fact, the Biden administration lost at least And some of these children were released at at an address that didn't exist or dozens of them list it to, you know, Uncle
▶ 2:20:05Jose at the same address. Many of those kids are undoubtedly being trafficked to this day. Many are probably dead. What do you say to this? The idea that somehow um, you know, the Trump administration or we Republicans in Congress are sometime somehow being cruel to illegal aliens.
▶ 2:20:25It's incredibly cruel to lure children and parents to the United States to send them through violent situations with coyotes that rape them, harm them, other violence, and then put
▶ 2:20:37And this goes on. This is undisputed. This is undisputed.
▶ 2:20:41Women and children are raped by coyotes and my Democrat colleagues encouraged this and the Biden Harris administration encouraged this. Yes, the policies that encourage families to come over here with the promise of a better life or freebies, if you will, that does encourage them to go through that. And then of course, as you noted, um I think it's the Department of Homeland Security said that there were hundreds of thousands that they could not find.
▶ 2:21:08Yes. So, yes, this is a huge problem and um I know that a lot of times some want to use feelings over facts. The reality is is that facts are being hidden intentionally.
▶ 2:21:21As I mentioned in my testimony, the Obama era administration, the Department of Justice and Education, um worked together to send out their dear colleague letter implying, just like they did with disciplinary measures and transgender ideology, that you would be investigated if you did not play our political game. And so, yes, that is what is happening here. Thank you. Mr. Rogers, I've heard over and over again in this hearing illegal aliens are taxpayers. Are all illegal aliens taxpayers?
▶ 2:21:52No, obviously a lot of them are paid under the table and avoid significant tax. The first time this ever came to my attention is when I was running for state rep in 2006 and I started knocking on the doors of actually union and I was in a new neighborhood that was predominantly union households.
▶ 2:22:07And they started asking me, "What are you going to do about illegal immigration?" Because in O'Fallon, Missouri, a low-income housing tax tax credit funded project was being uh being staffed by illegal aliens who were working off the books. The O'Fallon Police Department busted dozens working illegally off the books. I don't think we have a any idea what the true magnitude of that is.
▶ 2:22:35Correct, we don't because the studies that talk about benefits cherry-pick the data. Um clearly there's there's significant costs that aren't being accounted in those studies. Thank you. I yield back. I thank John from Missouri and I want to offer my apology to the ranking member. I went out of order uh believing that she had already gone and that is my fault and she was gracious in allowing Mr. Onder to continue his questions and I will now recognize the ranking member for her 5 Thank you. Uh Mr.
▶ 2:22:59Sands, you mentioned earlier that much of the discussion we've heard today has been based upon a conflation of ideas that all students from immigrant families who are who require ESL are undocumented in this country. But we know that almost half of foreign-born US residents are in fact citizens. Another 19% are legal permanent residents who could become citizens.
▶ 2:23:25Another 5% are here on temporary visas and half of the remaining about quarter of foreign-born immigrants living in the US have some legal status including awaiting a determination of their asylum claims or U visas, temporary protected status, DACA status, um humanitarian relief, etc. So, we're actually talking about a very small number of our total immigrant population who are in fact undocumented.
▶ 2:23:54And when we talk about the children of those folks, it becomes even smaller. Um as a former school board member, I am concerned about the idea that we're going to put the burden on our school districts of determining determining immigration status when our federal government has such a hard time determining that.
▶ 2:24:15Um and also the burden of remedial education that would occur if we deny basic education services to children at formative parts of their lives. Can you talk about the impact on a child's life if they are denied an education and what that's going to mean to our communities as well? Well, first of all, I think it is important to note as you do that all of these programs would continue.
▶ 2:24:41English learner programs, remedial education programs, all the programs that are being somehow attributed to the undocumented population. Because it is so small, it would have to continue in order for public education to succeed. Indeed, the incremental cost of adding one more English learner to an English learner program is much much smaller, obviously, than having to create a new program, which is not what's happening.
▶ 2:25:06But what happens over the course of a child and then an adult's life who does not get a basic education is they end up illiterate in all likelihood. And the options for those who are illiterate are quite limited. Too often the options are ones that are against the law for many. For others, they will have to, as you have mentioned, have to find some way to become literate.
▶ 2:25:27So, you would have to see some huge increase in adult literacy programs in order to create a workforce that's even capable of doing the most menial of jobs. The alternative, as you know, is to ensure that every kid has an education and can go on beyond 12th grade if that's their inclination and their talent allows it to make the kinds of contributions that we've seen from so many formerly undocumented immigrants ongoing in our society today. Thank you.
▶ 2:25:56Uh you touched on something that I think we all saw during the COVID crisis that when schools closed down and kids are not in school, we saw a huge spike in gun violence and community violence um that was impacting kids either because they were unsupervised, not getting an education, or because they had too much time on their hands. Can you talk about what excluding kids from school um could do to our communities?
▶ 2:26:23And in particular, I'm a little surprised that this pro-crime um policy is something our colleagues have expressed interest
▶ 2:26:31I I had the great honor of representing the plaintiffs in challenging California's Proposition 187, which is the only direct attempt to contradict Plyler in the 44 years since. That was only 12 years after the decision in 1994.
▶ 2:26:44And what we found was police chief after police chief after police chief who would testify that what would happen when you have hundreds, thousands of kids on the street is they are likely to become the victims of crime cuz they're readily available and too many of them as they age would then be fostered into becoming participants in the criminal rings that they were first victimized by.
▶ 2:27:09And it would result in a huge increase of crime almost immediately once you have those kids out of school. But as I've said, it multiplies over time because ultimately it's not just the kids who are excluded who choose not to be in school. Their siblings, citizen younger siblings of undocumented older siblings, will follow them out of school at some point, many of them. Others are friends. Others are even acquaintances who see, "If they don't have to be in school, then why am I here?
▶ 2:27:38And that frankly will be accelerated by the withdrawal of all of the supports that is happening this year and next, whether that's healthcare, nutrition, or housing. That's going to lead to more kids' inclinations to be out of school. So, if you start with eliminating Plyler, it will multiply quickly under the current regime because of those lack of that lack of supports. A huge spike in crime.
▶ 2:28:04If we accept that the argument that immigration status can be used as a reason to deny public education, where does that logic stop? Again, it means that you are then allowing local decision-makers to decide who they'd like to exclude from school.
▶ 2:28:20It's likely to start with those who are different from the norm or are somehow more expensive in someone's views to educate, and it could lead to a serious decrease in eligibility for public education that the Supreme Court noticed in another important case, Brown v. Board of Education, is so critical to preserving our democracy and preserving our ability to thrive as a society. Thank you. And Mr.
▶ 2:28:48Chairman, I have one one last, I hope, unanimous consent request. Uh February 6th, 2025 PBS article entitled Who Are the Immigrants Who Come to the US? Here's the Data. Without objection. Thank you. And before I start my time, I have a UC request, uh insert an article uh by uh Laura Reese of the Heritage Foundation, Every State Should Challenge Plyler v. Doe, Time to End Free Education for Illegal Alien K-12 Students. Without objection. Um and with that, I'll begin my 5 minutes of questioning.
▶ 2:29:19And um I would note, Ms. Jourdan, just quickly for you, is is child mutilation in the context of transgender surgeries good for children? Absolutely not. Is child migration in which the coyotes are abusing these young girls and children good for children? No, it's not.
▶ 2:29:39Did did disastrous open borders policies result in children being abused in the migration process? Absolutely, it did. this notion of not being in the school being somehow a time when children would get in trouble, being a danger, even if you concede that potential reality, is the problem of the not being in school or is the problem being here Being here illegally. Right. Isn't that the condition precedent?
▶ 2:30:04So this whole question here about, well, you know, we're going to be allowing local decision makers to make arbitrary decisions about who can be educated, are we not talking about that it's not arbitrary, we're just saying that it should be American citizens or people who are legally present in the United States, correct?
▶ 2:30:19all of this here we we've been talking about policy. We've heard a lot of my colleagues, we've heard Democratic witnesses in this hearing and in others acknowledge on the record open without shame that the local law enforcement should not cooperate with federal authorities. We've heard that here today. We've heard that illegal alien children who have committed crimes should not be turned over to ICE for dealing with their possible deportation.
▶ 2:30:45We've heard that sanctuary cities for 31% of the population are good and we've heard that there are there is no limit that would be accepted for how many people should come to the United States when we have 2.4 billion school-age children around the world. So my my question here is all of that seems to be the policy positions of my Democratic colleagues and those that are testifying on behalf of my Democratic colleagues. But I think the question here at the core of this is a legal question, right? And that I'd like to turn to Mr.
▶ 2:31:15O'Brien and Mr. Rogers to close, is that my my Democratic colleagues and witnesses have said effectively in an exchange between the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Raskin, the and I'm going to paraphrase, that Plyler didn't change any status. The result of Plyler wasn't to change a legal status, but it does effectively say it would be bad. It would be bad for kids who are here illegally. Um isn't this effectively, Mr. O'Brien first, Mr.
▶ 2:31:42Rogers, an admission that Plyler should be struck down? That this was effectively a policy choice by the court, not a legal decision baked in or based upon the 14th Amendment. Mr. O'Brien first. Yes, the court essentially says that in its opinion. It admitted outright that illegal aliens is not a suspect classification, and that there is no right to a free public education. Therefore, there shouldn't have been any issue before the court at all. Mr. Rogers, can you can you extrapolate upon that?
▶ 2:32:11Yeah, it's it's absolutely a policy judgment, and if judges have concerns about policies in America, they should run for office, but it's not their role to make policies as judges. Correct, cuz there've been a lot of policy discussion in this hearing. But the question here is, as put in the record that the Heritage paper saying, you know, these states should should be able to proceed with their policies, and that Plyler should be struck down. This should be left to the states to decide, or Congress to make policy. Um and and and Mr.
▶ 2:32:35O'Brien, you referenced the majority found that the Texas law imposed, quote, a lifetime hardship on children with no responsibility for their immigration status, taking an unestimable toll, and the Texas interest, quote, in the preservation of the state's limited resources for the education of its lawful residents did not outweigh the harm. The the court made a policy choice. Yes, correct. We
▶ 2:32:56they literally wrote out in their opinion a policy choice and preference. They did not root it in the Constitution or the law, as frankly was the standard of the day in that time, right? And we've already gone through, Mr. Rogers, as you acknowledged, um in the Dobbs decision, laying out how we go back and review precedent.
▶ 2:33:14It is your position, correct, as you stated here, just but I want to summarize and close, that you think that the court should review it, that they would have, uh under the Dobbs framework, the ability to review that precedent, and especially in light of the error that was found in Dobbs opinion and review of Roe, that we've got a similar legislating from the bench problem, a policy choice that was made by judges to assert in a five-to-four opinion that the people of Texas could not make a decision on their behalf for their schools, for their education,
▶ 2:33:45for their taxpayer dollars on how to deal with the failure of the federal government to secure the border and inundate our schools with people who are in the United States illegally. Do you believe that the court should review it based on what I just described?
▶ 2:33:57Absolutely should review it, and it should it should uh overturn Plyler. And We've heard uh testimony about all the benefits from Plyler, uh but it's not a court's role to determine the financial benefits. That's for legislators to weigh, and that's that's where they should belong, in state legislatures and in Congress.
▶ 2:34:11And to in closing here with seven seconds left, you believe that if uh brought to the court, to the Supreme Court, if states were to take action, I know Mississippi, Texas, and other states have been taking action uh to act on their behalf and pass policies, you believe that if taken to the court that this court would in fact um overturn Plyler and and side with the states. I Well, with that uh I well, I now have my friend from Texas who has joined us here, and I would recognize uh Mr. Hunt for his five minutes.
▶ 2:34:41Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under the Biden administration, American students and parents were overlooked. This is a fact, and we all know it. President Trump took decisive action to prevent illegal aliens from receiving free secondary education, which by the way is a very good thing. Now, we must also prevent illegals from accessing any taxpayer benefits, including K-12 education.
▶ 2:35:08As someone who was a product of school choice, me, whose parents drove me 1 hour each way so I get the education that they worked hard for me to to actually attain and earn. I understand the importance of this hearing and the need to ensure opportunities are available to all American children who are tax-paying American children and tax-paying American families. Under zero circumstances should illegal aliens receive benefits that American families rightfully deserve.
▶ 2:35:38In 19 in the 1982 ruling in Plyler versus Doe declared that the 1975 Texas law denying funds to public schools that enrolled illegal aliens was unconstitutional because it caused lifetime hardships on children who are not responsible for their immigration status, but what about those legal citizens in this country that are also being overlooked specifically in Texas, my home state?
▶ 2:36:02During that case, it was argued that only a small number of students were illegal suggesting this ruling would be insignificant. This decision was flawed then and has become a harmful burden to the American youth today.
▶ 2:36:18The situation under Democrat control and what was the border crisis with over 20 million people entering this country, we have no idea who they were and benefiting from the efforts of hard-working Americans and as we have discussed ad infinitum today, we are in so much debt that we can't even figure out how to get out of it and the debt clock gets worse and worse and worse and we simply flat out can't afford it.
▶ 2:36:46Somebody has to have the backbone and somebody has to have the ability to call this out for what it is. Raises a very serious question, what could this money have done for American families? What could this money have done for American students? And as somebody who is a believer in Christ, as somebody who believes in the good of America, as somebody that has fought for this country, as somebody that has risked my life to defend this great nation, I understand the need to want to help others.
▶ 2:37:17But oh my gosh, what about our own American citizens that are tax-paying Americans right here, right now, that should be put in first place? That's what this whole America First movement is all about. This is what I fought for. And while I wish we could save the world, unfortunately, that's just not going to work. So, we must protect ours first, just like any other country in the entire world would.
▶ 2:37:45You see, last I checked, I haven't seen any other country giving Americans piles of cash. But yet, we are the ones that are shipping our billions of dollars of hard-earned tax-paying dollars to everybody else. And no one wants to help us. My first question is for you, Ms. Droge. Thank you very much for being here Um thank you for your testimony.
▶ 2:38:06And as a product of school choice, I want to personally thank you for your ongoing efforts in helping the future of our You say that Congress should consider legislation allowing states to collect and share immigration data for educational planning. Can you expand upon this? And in your opinion, what should be done with states that refuse to participate? Yes. Well, as I talked about the dear colleague letter that um essentially threatened districts or states for collecting it.
▶ 2:38:35That was the implied uh chilling effect of the letter. And the problem obviously there is you have educators, you have educating leaders that are afraid of this. They're afraid of the ramifications all across our state, all across our country. And so, they're not collecting this data. And therefore, every time that we hear someone give statistics, whether it's how much they supposedly contribute, it's it's erroneous because it's not based in facts. We literally don't know, but we can estimate.
▶ 2:39:04We can estimate how much this is costing. We can also go back and look at the students while English second language or emergent bilingual is not a perfect um description of students that are likely here illegally. It gives us some sort of idea of what's happening.
▶ 2:39:21And what is happening is these students in these districts are causing negative ramifications across the board, whether it's in their classrooms, in their schools, in the entire districts that we are seeing being taken over by the state. And that disrupts all of the education. So, it is a crisis to not identify who these students are. We do it with special ed. We even do it with incarcerated um parents. It's just common sense to say who are the kids in our schools.
▶ 2:39:49And of course, we're not doing that now, and that creates a huge crisis both on resources and on funding. This is an issue of opportunity cost. If we are not helping American students, we're helping illegal children of illegal aliens that shouldn't be here in the first place, it means we're not helping an American student that deserves it. That's right. This is not a difficult concept. It's actually quite easy. No, I'm not a jerk. No, I'm not xenophobic.
▶ 2:40:17I believe in ensuring that we educate American citizens first. That's where our resources not It doesn't need to go there. It must go there. Thank you very much. My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman from Texas. I thank the witnesses for their testimony. This concludes today's hearing. Without objection, all members have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the record. And without objection, the hearing is adjourned.